All Comments (305)

Anonymous wrote:

"I could replace your entire post of "Wiccans" with "christians" and it would be no different."

You don't get it, do you? That was my point.

You posted:
""Interesting how people twist the rules to make them work the way they want them to."
Whose rules? yours? A book that Pagans don't follow?"

Whose rules? I was talking about Wiccan rules, weren't you paying attention? Do what you will as long as it harms no one? Except aborted babies - I guess they either left that part off the Rede, or the meaning was just twisted to fit the desires of the followers. I mean, according to Wiccan beliefs, an abortion would be akin to killing the spark of creation and it's Creator.

The point of my post, which you either completely missed, or you simply ignored so you could turn it right back around again, was to show people "like you" that bad things can be said about people from any religion, and it causes harm when you then generalize about an entire religion based on those bad examples. Something which you seem very comfortable with doing, but not hearing. It doesn't sound pretty, does it? It's not a good feeling to know that people might think most Wiccans "really" believe in evisceration or devil worship, no matter what they say.

You said:
"Our faith takes a whole lot of work, and it's people like you who don't want to understand that sets us back to the burning times. We seek to build interfaith understanding and work together with others on the really hard stuff because that's how anything important is ever going to get done."

I could say the same about other religions, including Christianity. I look forward to your disagreement, which I'm sure is to follow.

Jim,

I could replace your entire post of "Wiccans" with "christians" and it would be no different.

"Your Wiccan Rede, "An it harm none, do what ye will", apparently doesn't apply to unborn children"

and what is this supposed to mean? What is your proof? Apparently your 'love thy neighbor as thyself' only ends at birth? Wiccans are not the ones blowing up abortion clinics in the name of 'loving their neighbor.' It's not our clergy who makes a systemic display of covering up abuse of youngsters. I'm sure Darla Wynne can attest to the fact that the people who came and beheaded her beloved pets and left them scattered around for her to find did so in the name of Christianity. Is that what you want your faith to represent?

"Interesting how people twist the rules to make them work the way they want them to."

Whose rules? yours? A book that Pagans don't follow?

"That's just the real easy stuff to mention. Just don't forget that there is a lot about your religion that people don't believe in, don't agree with, and will never understand, no matter how many times or ways you say it. Because to them, what you say and do is sometimes contradictory, and to them, you have representatives of your religion who do and say horrible things. Just something to remember."

As do yours. What is your point? We put things out there because of people who don't want to accept the fact that some folks don't see things as you do. Yes, there are bad people out there. But most Wiccans or Pagans don't believe in 'showcasing' the good works that go on all the time. Our faith takes a whole lot of work, and it's people like you who don't want to understand that sets us back to the burning times. We seek to build interfaith understanding and work together with others on the really hard stuff because that's how anything important is ever going to get done.

TO GERRY: Concerning your post of 8-25-2007 at 1:13PM, "so god is like me, since he created me to his image? With guts, metabolism and all (!), sex, hunger, sleep, balding hair with age, losing memory with age etc.? A reason never to believe in such a "supernatural" entity!", what I wrote in my post of 8-25-2007 at 10:26 AM was that on basically page one of the bible it says, "Let Us make man in Our Image and Likeness", God is Love, Pure Love, and whenever we do something out of Love we are acting in the Image that God made us in, of course so much of the hate-filled garbage on here from so-called christians, you would never know it. I was directing what I wrote to people that call themselves christian and about the only thing that they know about God is His Name. Also when I wrote that Jesus said, "Judge not lest ye be judged" and also, "The measure with which you judge will be the measure that you are judged". Think about it. I was directing this to the people that use the bible to justify all of their hatreds, unforgivenesses and judgementalisms to maybe get them to think about what being a christian really is. I also made a post on 8-23-2007 at 7:27PM if you would care to read it. Thank You. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Terra wrote:

"So please do not equate her with what some preachers are saying in the churches that is in the bible."

I never mentioned anything about a preacher or a bible telling me what Wiccans do. I was talking about what I read and hear in the news and on the streets. You are the one immediately placing blame on "the church". I don't even go to church.

This isn't the first time I've read of these kinds of things being done by Wiccans, and it probably won't be the last. There was also the man and his girlfriend, both Wiccans, who beat their baby daughter to death, eventually separating her skull from her neck. Or the Wiccan woman jumping around chanting outside her house in the middle of the night in her underwear, drunk, burning tires and a cooler next to her house.

I'm sure you don't like being put into the same category with those Wiccans. I'm sure you don't even consider them to be true Wiccans. Guess what? I'll bet Christians feel the same way about other Christians who do or say things that are not true representations of that religion's teachings. And the same for Muslims and every other religion. People only pay attention to the squeaky wheel, don't they?

Your Wiccan Rede, "An it harm none, do what ye will", apparently doesn't apply to unborn children. Even though by your own definition "We see godhood is part of all life..and harming the creation is harming the Creator; for creation contains the spark of what created it." Interesting how people twist the rules to make them work the way they want them to.

That's just the real easy stuff to mention. Just don't forget that there is a lot about your religion that people don't believe in, don't agree with, and will never understand, no matter how many times or ways you say it. Because to them, what you say and do is sometimes contradictory, and to them, you have representatives of your religion who do and say horrible things. Just something to remember.

The ice crystals organize themselves, in an infinitely variable manner. Basically, they follow mathematical laws (algorithms). Did "god" create mathematical laws, or are they simply a priori existent? To find out to what infinite beauty and unimaginable fantasy self-organizing mathematical algorithms are capable of, just go to

http://www.errare.de/fraktale/gallery.pl?lang=de&gal=

These figures were not "created" by god or by an artist - they organized themselves. They "ONLY" represent the visualization of mathematical formulas. Understand why nobody needs a "revealed" particular god to find beauty and love? The natural laws are the "Divine", not an additional joker.

David,

to answer your last question ("out of curiosity"), if I believe in god:

No, I don't believe in any god as "revealed" in any possible scripture. Gods are human ideas and always have been, written or not.

To me, nature is enough "super" to not necessitate a "super-super-super-n- super" joker as a proxy for the lack of understanding, at a given time, of the cosmos, of life, of nature, of events.

That does not diminish (on the contrary!) my "absolute" feeling of awe, wonder and admiration for the universe and its inscrutable secrets and complexities. Hence my proximity to Paganism (I don't regard myself a Pagan).

The chemistry Nobel-Prize winner Manfred Eigen said: "In case ever a god created the laws of nature, he must have included evolution and the existence of man." The laws of nature are a self-organizing force: God does not create every snowflake. The crystals of ice and the "guided random" laws produce the infinite beautiful hexagonal variety of snowflakes (there is no "random heptagonal" snowflake!). That is similar with every other natural phenomenon, including you and me, and it's huge, great, wonderful. Simply never use the word "only" in such a context (example: "We are ONLY a product of natural laws and random), because these natural laws ARE the "divine", if you wish.

The quarrels about "god said", but "god said" to me are less than meaningless, they are a residue of infantilism, understandable, but dangerous if demanded as "faith" and sold as "truth".

David, you said,

"My core absolutes are summed up in 1 absolute that is divided in two statements but equalling one. To love God with all my heart, my soul and body. And to love my neighbor."

Mine too! We disagree on much else, but we started at the same place.

God bless.

Arminius,

Thank you for acknowledging my attempt at dialogue. I know it's not going to go much further so it's best to stop before anything personal gets loose. You asked me a question that I will respond to.

"So I ask you, David, what are your core absolutes? Where is the ultimate rock on which you stand?"

The rock that I stand on is the one who said "I am the way, the truth and the life". My core absolutes are summed up in 1 absolute that is divided in two statements but equalling one. To love God with all my heart, my soul and body. And to love my neighbor. Of all 613 commandments in the OT and especially the ten commandments we all have heard of, Jesus said they sum up in these two statements. Because if I do not love God I will not try to keep those commandments. And if I do not love my neighbor, then I have no desire to be good to anyone. My rock is Jesus and his two absolute statements are my core absolute moral statements. So simple, but yet so philisophically complicated that to understand these two absolute statements fully is to understand meaning and life and how life is supposed to be lived. This is my core absolute.

So sad,

Thank you kindly from my heart. I enjoy these discussions no matter how meaningless the outcome may be. I think it gives me an opportunity to learn other worldviews to better prepare me for any time anyone may have a question concerning our great Lord. I believe this site is exceptionally well in self-education due to all the different worldviews presented on here. I find our conversations interesting at times and sometimes frustrating, but overall educational and a way to learn to witness to those who want to hear. I thank you for your support and know exactly what you are talking about. I've learned one great important lesson defending Christianity. It is not us that can change hearts. If that were the case someone else could change it right back. It's only by the Holy Spirit that can sincerely change hearts. All we could do is give evidence and argument and clear the bushes so that the Cross is in plain view. It is only then that the individual decides to accept that offer of grace and only by the Holy Spirit will that person's heart change. I believe that alone has taken the burden off my chest for witnessing and defending Christianity. God bless you.

Lep,

Thank you for the discussion. I think we do see differently on the definition of relativism. I guess we could just leave it there then. Since we cannot even agree on the definition of relativism, then how can we argue about relativism? I guess it's just best to go. Thank you for your time and I wish you the best Lep. Take care.

Jim,

The woman you are talking about did not do anything a Wiccan would do. It was a Wiccan that was a witness against her. She was released from jail on bond and the witness's apartment was broken into and vandalized and some very expensive items and things left to him by his grandfather was stolen.

A Wiccan would NEVER kill anything for no purpose but to cut it up. Many Wiccans will not even eat meat because then life must be killed. And in our beliefs what you do returns to you...whether bad or good. We would never tempt karma in the way that woman did. If she is Wiccan she is not anything like a good one. I do not know any Wiccans that would stand up for the actions she took.

So please do not equate her with what some preachers are saying in the churches that is in the bible.

Lepidopteryx:

Are we just supposed to assume that because "a preacher" said this, or "a group of believers" did that, that anyone who believes in that religion is the same? Your comments about Baptist ministers and church teachings suggest this is what you believe. I just read an article in the news today about a few Wiccans in Salem who have been putting raccoon limbs, heads and entrails on people's doorsteps. Do I believe this is how all Wiccans act?

David,
Apparently, you and I have different ideas about what constitutes relativism.

I agree with you that acts such as murder, rape, theft, and deceit are immoral. Why? Because they are acts deliberately committed for the purpose of harming another. Yes, I consider malicious action to be absolutely immoral.

To say that because I consider sexual encounters among consenting adults, which harm no one, o be perfectly moral, even though someone else finds them heinous, does not mean that any deed is acceptable if everyone does not have all the same absolutes. The slippery slope is a myth.

For example, during Prohibition, it was illegal for anyone to buy, sell, or consume alcohol. When Prohibition was repealed, it did not mean that there were no limits whatsover on alcohol purchase, sale, or consumption. Repealing Prohibition did not mean that it was ok to sell alcohol to children. It did not make driving while intoxicated legal. It did not force those who thought consuming alcohol was a sin to drink.

Churches change policies - it happens. People either gravitate toward or away from them as a result. If the UU church I attend decided to no longer be a Welcoming Congregation, and stopped solemnizing same-sex marriages, I would no longer be interested in attending there. I would also no longer be interested in attending there if they began using the Bible as the only source of spiritual guidance. I like the fact that they celebrate not only Christmas ans Easter, but Samhaim, the solstices and equinoxes, Channuka, Passover, the birthdays of Ghandi, Martin Luther King, Jr., Siddhartha Gautama, and Mohammed, and Earth Day. I like the fact that the pastor takes sermon material from scriptures of every faith, from ancient and modern philosophers, from Harry Potter books, from the movies, from the congregation itself. I like the fact that there are all-music services focusing on gospel, the blues, jazz, folk songs. I have to love a church where you can hear not only "Amazing Grace" but also "Pride and Joy."
I like the fact that when my daughter was in their Sunday School program, they learned about other faiths' holy days, not in terms of "they believe this, even though we know it isn't true" but in terms of "they believe this." It was left up to the children to decide if they believed it or not. The teachers arranged to take them to services at a Catholic church, a Baptist church, a Pentecostal church, a Buddhist temple, a mosque, a Ba'hai temple, and a synagogue. Again, no admonitions beforehand about what was or wasn't true about the faith whose house of worship they were about to visit, just reminders to be polite guests. After the services, the priest, imam, rabbi, pastor, would answer whatever questions they had.

I don't know anything about how the Lutheran church operates in terms of policy decisions - how much authority exists at the individual church level by vote, how much is decided by a council of bishops that then hands down the word. If you're not happy with the way your denomination is run, you have several choices - fight to change it, grit your teeth and suck it up, leave the congregation or denomination, or even start your own. I left Christianity because too many of its values did not match my own.

I thnk sometimes that people give their church leaders too much power over their lives. When I was young, my uncle, who was a Marine, brought my mom a sculpted jade Buddha that he had bought in Japan. She thought it was quite beautiful and set it on the coffee table with an arrangement o silk flowers around it. One day, her pastor came calling, saw it there, and became damn near apoplectic. What was she doing with That thing in her house? Didn't she know it was an idol? Didn't she know she was breaking two commandments by having such an abomination in her house? She needed to destroy it immediately. So my mother threw a beautiful work of art in the garbage can because her preacher said so.

I give you props, David. You have tried much, MUCH longer than I would have had stamina for, to get them to understand your point of view. They will not listen, David. They will always refer back to slavery, or stoning, or the Crusades; they will not believe your explanations. They cannot see beyond their bad experiences. They do not see the real meaning of the Word, and that's ok. If they are meant to, they will; they know where to find it.

Jesus said "If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world." Our part in helping with this is to spread this word, so that others get the chance to hear and make their own choice. The fact that you have to be so circular with your postings just to try to get your point of view understood is proof that they simply cannot hear.

And so what do we do now? We love them for the wonderful human beings that they are. We thank God that we had the opportunity to even discuss these things with them. And we move on to see if there is someone else who needs our help, kind words, or discussion about God.

Thank you David, for being such a great representative of our faith.

David, et al,

Everyone who thinks has some absolutes in their life. Atheists, fundamentalists, whatever. Many have not bothered to figure out what they are.

So I ask you, David, what are your core absolutes? Where is the ultimate rock on which you stand?

The mistakes many make, and fundamentalists are the prime example, is twofold. First, they extend their absolutes way beyond their core beliefs until they are absurd and not defensible; and, two, they insist that they apply to all others, and make judgments thereupon. This always results in a mutual sado-masochism bashing which can be gobs of fun, but gets nobody anywhere.

Yet many - including you, David - do attempt dialog. I thank you for that, even though we are miles apart in belief. But we all, and I am one of the worst, don't hold to the dialog.

Ahhh...I'm starting to see now. I guess since Christianity passed over into politics that is where the contempt for Christianity comes from. Believe it or not, I'm with you all on that one. I know over the last few months after reading thousands of posts one thing is evident. The country hates Bush. Bush is a Christian. Therefore, Christianity sucks too, right? Look, I am a Christian and I don't care too much for Bush either. I feel this war was decietful and wrong. But I'm still a Christian and feel that all this going on in the world has nothing to do with Christianity. But everyone will be quick to blame Christianity along side with Bush. Kinda unfair, don't you think?

I think you all are misunderstanding my point about moral relativism. I am not imposing that the morals in the Bible are what you have to follow. You have a choice. I simply am implying that we all make moral absolutes. To say that morals are relative means that you cannot argue over someone elses morals or you really do not believe in moral relatives! We all make absolutes and we all think our way is the right way, otherwise why be on this thread arguing over if homosexuality is morally good or bad. If it is relative, then you have nothing to argue! Otherwise if you argue that it is morally ok, then you just made an absolute moral statement negating moral relativism. See the illogic? My only intention is to force you logically to admit that we all have our own morals. They are not relative. If they were, then how can we argue against someone elses morals? We are all guilty of making moral absolutes in our lives. Can I be so honest as to say that I have moral absolutes which means that yours are wrong? I'm just being honest. Logically you would have to have the same honesty. Because if homosexuality is morally ok to you and not to me, then how can you argue against my morals? Ya see?

Gerry,

Just curious. Do you believe in God or a god or some kind of divine source?

David,

absolutism is a form of government where a king has the absolute power, so don't try to educate me.

In your bible, god ordered Saul to kill all the Amalekites (among others), sparing no women, children, even beasts. God chided him for not killing enough. So there you are with you "absolutism"!

Therefore: Absolute morals don't even exist in the bible. Can you follow?

And yes, everyone likes love, except when you look at the political evangelicals who spout nothing but hatred. They "love" hatred, if that is what you mean. (Hagee, Scarborough, not to mention the Haggard flock. And Billy Graham loved the Iraqis so much that he persuaded your infantile president to invade them, to "love" them.)

And Cortez and his Christian fellow-moralists (just to mention one of so many "love" examples") loved the Aztecs so much that he tried to kill them all.

"By their fruits you shall know them"? Can't you understand that a self-respecting person, as which I regard myself, doesn't want to have anything in common with the "fruits" of such a philosophy?

Terra, I appreciate so much that Pagans don't have any difficulty with the most advanced scientific research, which by definition includes evolution, as compared to the Santa Claus Christians who have never left their creationist age 5 maturity.

Nature to me is also "sacred", to borrow a word I otherwise never use, regarding, among other instances, the "sacred" quality of race mentioned by David and others who derive their feeling of superiority by their "faith" in the "sacred" absurd. (Credo quia absurdum).

David,

Until we attacked Iraq there was a very open and vital Christian church. Saddam did not have anything to do with the extremists because he was not religious, plus a strongman who did not want to release any power to them. The Iraqis were very tolerant and before 1991 were very prosperous...Now the Christians are having to lay low and fear for their lives. I do understand that there are other Christians in other areas.

Christians, Jews and Muslims lived for centuries side by side with no problems. Then the Church decided they needed to take power...Centuries of Crusades and Inquisitions.

http://www.alhewar.com/habeeb_salloum_islamic_tolerance_in_al-andalus.htm

My father's people came from Calabria...Greek, Romans and Moors I am all three and more...

If Christians are being persecuted it is because they opened that door.

Many Christians have a way of thinking that unless they are allowed to say and do what ever they want, it's discrimination against their religion. They seem not to realize that all Americans have the same rights and laws to follow. Your absolutes are only absolutes to you...what you call moral relativism is also called logic.

We have a basic difference...Pagans believe that we work with the Gods to make the world a better place...and you believe that God is the master and even if you suffer (or speacilly is you suffer) you have to follow laws that are archaic and illogical in 2007. That may be your belief, but that does not stop those who think as you to question the rightness of the extremeists in Muslim countries.They also have the same kind of beliefs.

I think the biggest misunderstanding that some Non Pagans have about Pagans, is that you think we are stupid. In fact we have a larger percentage of readers then the American norm. Our individual libraries are extensive, holding books on just about every genre possible.We are really big on history, phycology and science.I am very excited about Quantum Machanics...

And again, I do not hold contempt for you...(what a word to use...) but I do pity you and all those who think the laws are more important then the good of the people; Humanity that you say are created with the spark of the divine in the image of god.

keir

Gerry,

Sounds like you have no idea what absolutism means. If the Bible says do not murder, that's an absolute moral statement. It doesn't say do not murder "unless" or "except". The Bible does make absolute moral statements. It's whether you agree with them or not which is the problem. And like most non-Christians you base your beliefs on what people who call themselves Christians do. Such as your Texas death penalty example. Don't make the terrible assumption that just because those who call themselves Christians do things non-Christian equals Christianity is false. I will respect your right to disagree with the Bible and base your beliefs upon that notion, but to judge others and conclude that Christianity is false is a terrible argument.

I don't expect any of you to understand Christianity at all. You've already made up your mind. The point in arguing all this is pointless. But, Gerry, your last statement was this:

"bsolute morals? They don't even exist in the bible!"

Really? Do not murder. That is an absolute moral statement. Do not commit adultery. That is an absolute moral statement. Shall I go on? And you know what the greatest absolute moral statement in the Bible is? Love your neighbor. Why? Because if you do, then you won't murder, commit adultery, rape, steal, lie, and hurt. Jesus made the most genius statement and said that loving everyone sums up the law of God. Because when you love everyone, you won't do anything to break those laws. That there is the most absolute moral statement in history and it can't be argued. You can try, but you'll end up losing because everyone likes"love". And love is the only way to keep all moral laws.

Thou shalt not kill?

All European countries have abolished death penalty. Christian Texas governors kill to their heart's content, contradicting their god, resp. following the other part of their god's examples. Absolute morals? They don't even exist in the bible!

David,
your morals are by no means absolute: You derive them from a conglomerate of very "relative" bronze age scriptures that proclaim, among other atrocities, that it is o.k. to stone your daughter if she offends you, it is o.k. to slaughter a foreign tribe which adores a different selection of gods, and that you rot in hell eternally for choosing the wrong selection.

So I feel perfectly comfortable with Lep's golden rule, and even more comfortable that she (and I) refuses to derive her morals from such an adulterated source.

Your strange sophism would mean, that as soon as someone makes a statement he claims its universal "truth". On such grounds nobody can have a decent conversation.

So keep sulking and stay with your "absolute" and "revealed" moral. I am happy that people defect from this superstition in growing numbers and resort to reason and the admiration of nature - and the golden rule.

Lep,

Thanks for your response. I could give you a whole lineup of apologetics concerning the issues you brought up, but I do see it as pointless. There is one last thing, of course concerning moral relativism, that I wanted to respond to.

" It's "do what you wish as long as you don't harm others in the process." Just because my code isn't written down in a Bronze Age book does not mean that I am amoral. "

First, I do not think you are amoral at all. I'm sure your a very kind and generous person. I'm sure we hold many of the same moral attributes that can make us united in today's society. Of course we will differ on many others, but overall I'm sure we agree that rape is bad, murder is bad, child molestation is bad, etc. But one thing I need to point out. I will re-phrase what you said as this...I hope this is the equivolent of what you mean.

"I believe in moral relativism as long as it doesn't harm anyone else."

This statement above is logically contradicting. Because if morals are relative, then I can believe it is ok to hurt someone, but you say it is not ok. If morals are relative, then why make a morally absolute statement that hurting someone else is amoral? But if you say that it is bad for me to believe that hurting someone is ok, then you do not believe in moral relatives. You believe in moral absolutes and that your absolutes are the only right way! So really what you're saying is that morals are absolute only if they agree with yours!

Now, concerning the topic of the week. I believe homosexuality is amoral. I gave my reasons. To recap it is because I believe sexuality is sacred. According to you morals are relative. So a question to ask you would be....why are you on here then? Why even argue a moral issue if morals are relative? What right do you have claiming morals to be relative to claim that mine are amoral? Or is it that you do not believe your own words and believe that your morals are absolute and that anyone who opposes those are wrong? Lep, I'm sorry, but I wish you would just come out with it and say that your morals are the only right way, otherwise your purpose on here is contradictory to your own beliefs.

I guess I'll give up on the subject. I'm sure nothing will come of it. But I really do not understand the logic involved as to how anyone can claim that morals are relative but then make an absolute statement that homosexuality is ok. Because if it's not ok with someone then it's not relative. I wish you would see the illogic in this position. Wish you the best though Lep.

Take care

Terra,

"You do not respect other's beliefs... you think you know what is better for everyone, then you whine when you get into trouble"

And you've known me so long to really know this?

Look, sites like these are definately meant for debate and argument. There is nothing wrong with that. I believe I told Lep on another post that it is great to respect the individual and ok to challenge the idea. If you do not know, my God says we are all created in His image. So, whether you believe in Him or not, you are equal to me and I to you in His eyes. And I feel the same. I may not agree with your ideology but the respect for you is fully there whether you believe that or not. But to assume that "I know what's best for everyone" is a terrible assumption that you make to simply try to bring down my character. Feel free to do so, but when you throw mud in peoples faces, you not only lose ground but get your hands dirty as well.

"As far a Christians being persecuted, most of that comes from missionaries going into countries where they are not welcome."

Terra, I've read some of your other posts and find some very intelligent postings from you, but it seems that your assumptions have gotten the best of you. I clearly remember about a month ago, someone posting from Iraq. A Christian arab who lives there and told all of us that we are so lucky that we can even debate these issues publicly, because where he lives he can get killed for speaking Jesus' name in public. To say only missionaries are the ones killed is quite assumptuious and wrong. What, arabs can't be Christians too? Can't there be Christians in a predominantly muslim society? Or are you assuming again that Christianity is just a western ideology? I saw a man with a t-shirt on one day that came to my work. It had a cross on the front and on the back it said, "this shirt is illegal in 51 countries". To tell me that only missionaries get killed is to say that Christians are only in american and maybe parts of europe. Please don't be so ignorant to the fact, Terra.

I think the best thing to do would be to discontinue our conversation. There seems to be a bit of contempt on both sides. It would be better to leave with the respect we deserve then continue in an insulting manner.

I wish you the best.

Take care.

David,
We see Godhood as different then you see it. You see a figure in the sky, we see a force of creation. We have gods that are parts of that Godhood...small bites (if you will) that we can understand, because the total of that power that creates universes, we can not understand.

I am a soft Polytheist. I believe that all the gods of all the cultures throughout time are aspects of the God/dess. So yes, we have many Gods and One...and for us, very logical. Your god is after all a trinity, three that are aspects of one. The only difference, we strive for balance...

As far a Christians being persecuted, most of that comes from missionaries going into countries where they are not welcome. They are asked not to try converting but they do it anyway. You do not respect other's beliefs... you think you know what is better for everyone, then you whine when you get into trouble. You need to honor other nations and their beliefs, then maybe more folks would not feel so much anger against you.
terra

Lep,

I wasn't referring to you when I mentioned racially motivated slavery. I think it was Terra. But anyway, my point being is that you believe morals are relative. We had this conversation before. If you truly believe this then why make moral absolute statements? I am sorry for the way you are treated. I hope you will acknowledge that Christians are persecuted as well. Maybe not so much in this country, but they are killed for their beliefs in predominantly muslim countries. Yes us Christians sure take advantage here in the U.S. but all across the world they aren't just harassed, but killed. Of course this gives no one a right to do what they did to you no matter where you are and I'm sorry for that for you.

Paganplace,

In paganism you can believe in many gods or one god and they are both right. And you tell me that logic is NOT on my side? I guess the laws of non-contradiction don't apply to paganism, huh?

In a time of universal deceit, only the jesters can tell the truth.

Blessed F'n be. :)

PRIVER:

**Gotta love that Jon Stewart.**

Yeah, my daughter and I are currently fighting over which of us gets to have his next baby...

Wow!

Whoever posted they were smelling "a conventional blend of hypocrisy and feigned superiority.."

You have truly superior olfactory senses.

BRAVO!

Lepi:

Gotta love that Jon Stewart. I honestly think if it hadn't been for him I may have moved to Canada by now.. or broken my tv/computer.. :)

Oh, and I'll also add that if you claim universal absolutes based on a text, both the absolutes and the text are fair game, logically.

This doesn't mean that evaluating a situation according to values' constitutes an absolute you can define for yourself and then attack as 'amorality.'

Believe it or not, the rest of the world don't revolve around the particular ideas you choose to call absolute.

If you wonder why logic ain't on your side, it's cause it actually isn't.

Lil point on this, David:

"wonder how you continue to hold a "morally relative" state of mind and then have the nerve to say certain things are wrong morally in the Bible."

This'd be mostly because what Christian detractors say about us 'moral relativists' *doesn't actually meet with the reality of it.*

Dig?

David:
**I wonder how you continue to hold a "morally relative" state of mind and then have the nerve to say certain things are wrong morally in the Bible. We had this conversation already, but I wonder how you, a believer in moral relativism, can justify making morally absolute statements? Hmm...kind of hypocritical?**

If you go back and read my posts, you will find that my morality/ethic is not "do whatever you want with no consequences." It's "do what you wish as long as you don't harm others in the process." Just because my code isn't written down in a Bronze Age book does not mean that I am amoral.

**I don't think you all are getting what slavery really is in the Bible. There were no racially motivated slaves.**

Where exactly did I say that slavery in the Bible was racially motivated? I didn't. But now that you bring up the subject, there were certain rules in place about where one could and could not acquire slaves, presumably to avoid enslaving members of your own tribe.

**In fact it was the Hebrews who were slaves because they were Hebrews.**

Is there any historical documentation of the enslavemetnt is Egypt outside of the book of Exodus?

**You actually will find slaves volunteering to be slaves due to a debt of some sort. Even lawyers, doctors and the such were slaves by choice due to a debt incurred.**

Providing a mtually agreed upon amount of work to pay off a debt is not the same as being owned by another person. Once the debt is paid, you're free to go on your way. People who are owned by other people don't have an end date for the arrangement. And I doubt that any of the foks taken as slaves during the Hebrew march through the desert agreed to become slaves.

**Culterally you need to seperate what us modern folks think as slavery as compared to thousands of years ago.**

Because she was owned by his wife, Abram was able to legally rape Hagar, and her child would not even belong to her. Because she and Ishmael were property, there was no penalty for leaving them in the desert to die.

**And I'm not sure why anyone would cite the tower of Babel to invoke rascism.**

The Southern Baptist churches I grew up in cited the curse on Ham as the reason that black people should never be considered equal to whites, and the tower of Babel was interpreted as God having separated the races, meaning that inter-racial marriage was against the will of God.

**But of course it's becoming evident more and more that I'm on here for people to find any excuse not to believe in the Bible.**

I stopped believeing the Bible because it contradicted itself toooften, and because the God it described struck me as capricious at best and sadistic at worst. Such a being filled me with a sense of disgust, not awe and worship.

**It's all our choice. You choose different, I choose Jesus. Because I choose Jesus, I expect the onslaught of anti-Christian rhetoric that is so consistent on OnFaith. But as soon as anyone speaks against paganism....OH LOOK OUT! Us bad Christians, so rascist, so hateful!**

Tell me how many times you've been physically attacked because you wore a crucifix. Want to hear about my friends who have had pents ripped from around their necks by perfect strangers?
Tell me how many times you've had the police called to your home to break up a worship activity?
Ever have a Pagan knock on your door on a Saturday morning to tell you that you were worshippimg the wrong deity?
Ever had your car vandalized because you had a Jesus bumper sticker? I've had Pagan bumper stickers defaced while my car was parked in my own driveway.
Ever been physically accosted because you didn't stop when a Pagan thrust a Goddess tract in your face? I have.
I know that not all christians do these things, but the majority of folks who do these things are fundamentalist Christians. Pagans have good reason to be wary.

Oh, and just for good measure, when the UU church put on their electronic sign an announcement that the New Orleans Gay Men's Chorus Christmas concert was to be held there, someone destroyed the sign.

**That's allright though, getting used to it and actually I kind of like being the underdog.**

Underdog? You've got to be freaking kidding me. I'll leave you with a Jon Stewart monolog on the oppression of Christians in this country (as best as I can remember it):
"I look forward to the day when Christians can worship openly. I look forward to the day when they can place symbols of their faith on their houses of woship for all to see, or even wear symbols of their faith as items of jewelry. I dream of the day when a Christian will be elected President - maybe even 42 times - consecutively."

Lep,

I wonder how you continue to hold a "morally relative" state of mind and then have the nerve to say certain things are wrong morally in the Bible. We had this conversation already, but I wonder how you, a believer in moral relativism, can justify making morally absolute statements? Hmm...kind of hypocritical? I don't mean to be offensive, but it's you that thinks morals are relative, therefore why judge about anything anyone does, including what's written in the Bible? Or is that an exception?

I don't think you all are getting what slavery really is in the Bible. There were no racially motivated slaves. In fact it was the Hebrews who were slaves because they were Hebrews. You actually will find slaves volunteering to be slaves due to a debt of some sort. Even lawyers, doctors and the such were slaves by choice due to a debt incurred. Culterally you need to seperate what us modern folks think as slavery as compared to thousands of years ago. And I'm not sure why anyone would cite the tower of Babel to invoke rascism.

But of course it's becoming evident more and more that I'm on here for people to find any excuse not to believe in the Bible. It's all our choice. You choose different, I choose Jesus. Because I choose Jesus, I expect the onslaught of anti-Christian rhetoric that is so consistent on OnFaith. But as soon as anyone speaks against paganism....OH LOOK OUT! Us bad Christians, so rascist, so hateful! That's allright though, getting used to it and actually I kind of like being the underdog.

Anyway enough babbling. And according to Gerry there were no non-catholic Christians that were killed by the RCC contradictory to history. And I will agree that Martin Luther and some of the reformationists did some terrible things as well. Doesn't make it right and it doesn't make it Christian. I'm not here to defend the pope or Martin Luther or anything. Simply here to defend my faith, not the history that those with a similiar faith abused.

peace homies

Hi, Lep,

Here in the South I have heard - as doubtless you have too - certain benighted individuals, followers of the 'Lost Cause', hold forth on "how the slaves were, in general, well treated....". Makes me want to puke. I am a Southern man, and proud of it - but my ancestors from East Tennessee fought for the Union because that region was non-slaveholding.

As for those depressing and sometimes horrifying stories in the OT - that is why I started in the Gospels, and stick to the NT for the most part. There are beautiful parts in the OT; Psalms, Proverbs, Song of Solomon. Ecclesiastes is worth a read too. For that matter, the first creation story is a poetic triumph, myth though it is. I still don't have the guts to read Job, although the fact that in that book God pretty much makes a bet with Satan I find amusing.

Thomas Baum,

so god is like me, since he created me to his image? With guts, metabolism and all (!), sex, hunger, sleep, balding hair with age, losing memory with age etc.? A reason never to believe in such a "supernatural" entity!

I think I know better who I am! Hypocrite?

Not to mention that people in MY family don't buy and sell each other.

DAVID:
**Slaves were like family and recieved many rights and actually there are written laws in the OT concerning these rights. While the non-israelite community was treating slaves, well, like slaves, the Israelites had laws from God to treat them right. Even giving them a limited time in service and after their service was done the owners were required to give them money and food to go on their own ways and that is IF they wanted to leave.**

You mean like Hagar? Raped by Abram at Sarai's behest in order to make her pregnant with a child that would belong not to her, but to Sarai. And we would have to assume repeated rapes until she missed a menses, since Abram would not have known when she was fertile.
Then after Isaac was born, and Hagar and Ishmael became an inconvenient embarassment, they were abandoned in the desert and left to die, again at Sara's order.
Just like family? Glad they weren't my family. And yet Abraham is considered an example of a righteous man.

David:
**Lep,

No way that doesn't mean that. It means that someone's race is sacred. All ethnicities are equal, this is what makes race sacred. C'mon now Lep, that was a bad assumption...you know better...**

Considering how many times I've heard the tower of Babel story used to justify racism, I felt it was a valid question, considering that you were using sacredness of sexuality as a defense for discrimination against gays.

To the hypocrites who do not know who they are: Page One, "Let Us make man, humanity, in Our Image and Likeness". Jesus really did say, "Judge not lest ye be judged" and also, "The measure with which you judge will be the measure that you are judged". Think about it. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

It's football season again. Time to get my "Leviticus 11:7-8" banner out of the garage and head out to the stadium to protest.

David,

all witches were Christians. There were no non-Christians at the time of their burning.
Luther was fervently in favor of burning witches.

Nice to learn a new definition of slavery vs. liberty. So the civil war was fought for an illusion, taking away the happiness for so many people of being a slave.

Incredible, bordering to amusing to what length the "faithful" will go to "rationalize" the absurdities and atrocities of their faith.

Yes Terra your right. But you have given an imcomplete historical account. I'm sure what your referring to were the witch trials and the such. I'm not too sure if your aware of who else was burned at the stake in opposition of the Roman Catholic Church. CHRISTIANS!! Maybe if you could do a little research on the matter you will find that there were many non-catholic christian communities that had to smuggle in bibles because the popes didn't want anyone to learn the truth and therefore leave the RCC. Of course they were smuggled in and learned the truth in the Bible as compared to what the RCC taught and for preaching the truth were burned on the stake as well. Some of those Christians (called heretics to the RCC) were considered to be witches as well. A good start would be researching Jan Hus. Burned at the stake for preaching the truth which was in opposition to the RCC.

So, if your gonna blame Christianity on the murders of witches, blame Christianity on the murder of true Christians as well. You may not be aware, but the Bible prophecied a time when these Christians would be killed for their beliefs by a false christianity. Rev 17 and 18.

I do believe this part of history is the most overlooked concerning Christianity. Everyone is quick to blame Christians for the murder of many people in history, but I insist that you blame the RCC because they murdered true Christians as well. Maybe think about this; isn't there a reason why there was a "Reformation" brought about by Martin Luther?

And by the way before speaking about slavery in the Bible maybe you can research what slavery really was in those days. It wasn't whips and chains in the Bible. Slaves were like family and recieved many rights and actually there are written laws in the OT concerning these rights. While the non-israelite community was treating slaves, well, like slaves, the Israelites had laws from God to treat them right. Even giving them a limited time in service and after their service was done the owners were required to give them money and food to go on their own ways and that is IF they wanted to leave. Some would stay as family. So contrary to what you might assume slaves in the Bible were more like servants. There is nothing wrong with being a servant. In fact we are all servants to someone. If you have a job your a servant. You pay taxes, your a servant to Uncle Sam. So I advise you to learn more about the subjects you speak of before claiming that the Bible is full of evil things and in-equalities. All men are equal in God's eyes.

Col 3:11

11Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.

David,
The Constitution says we are all created equal...I do not think the bible says that. Not when god justifies that some people are ok to enslave and some aren't( the neighboring Pagan people were just fine to enslave, your own wasn't).

That is why we have the constitution and the division between church and state...because Europe was a bloody mess. All those nasty bonfires that were lit around people that were not equal to those who were like the ruling class.

You know what fag means? It means a short stick that was used to light a bigger fire. You know how gays got that name? Because they were rounded up with those accused of Witchcraft and were used to light the main attraction.

Love and light...

terra

Lep,

No way that doesn't mean that. It means that someone's race is sacred. All ethnicities are equal, this is what makes race sacred. C'mon now Lep, that was a bad assumption...you know better...

Okay, so when all is said and done, how am I supposed to understand the bible?

I'm not just read it or else I would be heading to the doctor's office to get me some anti-demon potion.

I can't use reason and logic because science tells me that the universe if 14+ billion years old and religion tells me is's 6,000 years old.

I can't use the bible's moral concepts because I would have to advocate that John Madden be stoned to death (Madden works on Sundays to bring us color commentary for -- is it NBC now?).

I think the only thing I can go by is to hope that the holy spirit envelops me with understanding so that I might know God's will and fully understand the teachings of the bible.

So how well did that work out for those popes that started that nasty torture business? How well did that work out for Bushy when God told him to invade Iraq?

Wouldn't we all be better off if, rather than the holy spirit, God used something verifiable -- like email. I know I certainly would sit up and take notice if I got an email from god@god.god.

Dunry - thanks, and you're right - sometimes I don't know when to shut up. But I'm often embarassed by things I do before morning coffee. Anyway - it was a feeble attempt at ruffling some feathers and making this thread more interesting. Failed miserably, didn't I?

After LBJ made sure that the voteing act was passed he said, " we have lost the South for at least a generation." And he was right...it was the Bible Belt states that left the Democratic Party...those representatives were called The Dixiecrates. Why did they leave...Equal rights for blacks. They joined the republican party...they used the Bible to speak against equal rights. Then there was the liberal churches that fought, marched and were beaten for working to get equal rights for all people.

It is not the Religion...it is the fundamentalist churches that use the Bible to discriminate. I have nothing against the Church that furthers life...I have everything against what hinders it.

Any religious book can be used for any purpose. What you find in the Bible reflects more who you are.

terra

David:

**Reason for this is because we hold race and ethnicicity sacred. Who you are racially is sacred.**

So does that mean the inter-racial marriage is a sin? If so, that's one more reason I could never be Christian again.

What's up A Hermit,

Long time no talk. I like what you just posted. I feel that it is important as a Christian to know why homosexuality is considered a sin in the Bible. It would be very hard to dialogue with those that disagree by just simply saying "the Bible says so".

I posted something similiar to this on the main page, but I'll repeat it. I don't hear too many people claim that the Bible is rascist. Reason for this is because we hold race and ethnicicity sacred. Who you are racially is sacred. Paul spoke of this in Acts 16 and 17. Certain things that God created for us are sacred. One of those of course is sexuality. I believe sexuality is sacred. God created EVERYTHING. Even sexuality. He gave us certain laws that apply to sexuality. Do not have sex outside of marriage, with animals, adultery, many partners and of course with the same sex. To merely point out that homosexuality is a sin in the Bible because the Bible says so is an imcomplete answer. But to recognize that sexuality is sacred and should be practiced within the laws which make it remain sacred is why I believe homosexuality breaks those laws and desacralizes sexuality. Of course if your not a believer then you may not agree, but Biblically speaking this is the reasoning for homosexuality as a sin because God gave us the gift and pleasure of sex. He made it sacred. Christians should believe that we should keep it sacred as well.

I hope this is a better answer that just "the Bible says so". And of course to respond to you Hermit that there is reasoning behind this thinking and that reasoning is keeping sexuality sacred.

Take care.
Nice to see ya around Hermit.