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The events that took place at Va. Tech are horrible indeed. I offer a sermon on "Prayer and Tragedy" posted below.

My conclusion is this. We live in a fallen world in which God gives us some degree of choice. Being a Christian does not exempt us from unexpected tragedy as if we are someone special. Our faith in Jesus does not mean that he will make everything in our lives turn out just right so that we reach the American Dream. That is a santa clause view of God. In the midst of all sorts of tragedy and suffering, our minds will never be able to figure out exactly why. Best of all God is with us.

How else can I live with unexpected, previously undiagnosed, and in no way preventable changes inside my body that placed me on disability before reaching 50. If it were not for modern medicine, I'm certain that I'd be dead by now. So, if God predestined various parts of my brain to stop working or not work right (as has taken place), then is modern medicine standing in the way? No, that is dime store theology as well as stupid. Satan works through the deadly tragedies of life to pull us away from God. On the other hand, God is at work in both the valley experiences of life and in the mountain top ones to draw us closer to himself. Life is a battle. We live in a battle zone because we live in a world and society wrecked by sin.

Sometimes our own sin or the sin of others or just the overall death inflicting of sin as a whole is why horrible things take place. Not everything that happens to us is for our good. ( I would not have chosen any of the medical problems that I have nor could I have prevented them by better care of my health.) However, God is at work even in the face of the most hell like tragedy to help us through which may mean rebuilding a life quite different than what we lived before which mine is.

I still like what a seminary room mate said once is wrong "Too much sin, too much stupidity, too much dime store theology, and too many living in a fantasy world."

In Christ,

John M. Crowe, D.Min., APC
Incapacity Leave
Chair Committee on Disability Concerns
nccumcmentalhealth.org

On September 9, 2001, a sermon was preached from Psalm 139:1-6, 13-18. Psalm 139 contains King David's joyous reflections upon the truth that God knows. Throughout King David's obstacle filled life, he learned the security of living in relationship with God. David's Psalms express his certainty that God knew and understood the depths of his words. So, he poured them all out before God in times of tragedy, crisis, and when godless foes attacked him.

Two days after the preaching of the sermon on Psalm 139, the tragic events of 9/11 took place. People gathered together to pray. How comforting it is to know in times like those that God knows and understands the depths of our words when we pour them all out before Jesus in times of tragedy, and crisis.

According to Psalm 139, God knows the very depths of your soul. God knows what you are saying to him in prayer even better than you do. Isn't this what we are told in Romans 8:26 about the Holy Spirit helping us.26 "In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness.We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express."

As we focus on prayer, remember last year's national tragedy, and focus on the tragedies of our own or of others, I

Human tragedy cuts deep. It is very painful. The Bible says in Ephesians 6 that your real struggle with tragedy, suffering, and evil in the world is not a fight against people on earth. You are fighting against spiritual powers of evil that attack outwardly through others who yield themselves to evil attitudes and actions. You also fight against spiritual power of evil that attack your soul in hope of leading you into evil attitudes and actions. The strongest attacks upon your soul always come in times of great tragedy and crisis. These attacks can be overcome through prayer. You can do this by asking God daily to grant you wisdom and courage for the living of these days. Then, God's grace will save you from weak resignation to the evils you deplore.

Fulfilling the Bible's call to be angry and yet not sin is very difficult when you are in the middle of a painful crisis. Barnacles on a wooden ship are as bad for the ship as for anyone who knocked up against them for their cuts are painful. Some find their lives shipwrecked after such experiences with the barnacle like tragedies of life by becoming a barnacle themselves.

If you forever nurse the pain, you will never be free to love again. Also, if you do not feel the pain of your experience with the barnacle like tragedies of life, then you become numb and remain naive. Feeling the pain and giving it to God for his healing work as well as his dealing with those responsible in prayer is the biblical way to a better day. This is much healthier than feeding the pain and holding onto it as if that is somehow going to accomplish something. Not to forgive digs a dark and dreary day. However, to forgive brings about a better day.

To forgive means taking others off of your hook and placing them on God's hook. Such a prayerful response by God's free grace through Jesus Christ can make you a better person. I am convinced that a lot of people's lives' are shipwrecked in a crisis by their living in self-pity. Bitter self-pity, unfocused anger, loveless fears, and wounded pride will shipwreck you unless you stop and change your mind as well as your heart from the bondage of unforgivenessto freedom through forgiveness. Such freedom comes only after pouring your heart out completely to God in prayer.

Also, you can prayerfully refocus the energy of your anger. You can focus your energy to work toward making the world, your country, your state, your county, your schools (shooting), your community (political assassination, racism), your families (spouse abuse & child abuse), and your hearts free from the sins that leads to inflicting terror into people's lives.

Very often in times of tragedy, you feel abandoned by God. You may find it difficult to believe that with God's help, your life can be rebuilt. Yet, the good news of rebuilding with God's help is the Bible's message for you today.

It is easy to sail along life in your own strength and wisdom, when life is smooth sailing. However, no one's life is without tragedy. Disaster and heart-ache will inevitably hit you. There's sorrow by death. A woman dies, leaving her husband with three small children to raise. A car accident claims the life of a couple's only son or daughter. A senseless boating accident caused by someone' drunken and reckless condition takes the life of someone's fiancée just a few days before the wedding.

While some are the soul survivors of a departed spouse, others experience multiple losses in their life over a short time. In one three year period, a lady lost her father to cancer, her mother to senile dementia, her husband after 31 years of marriage, her talented son in an accident. Many were the nights that she went to bed hoping that she would never wake up. Because of her faith, she knew that she could no more take her life than the life of someone else. Through it all she never doubted God's love and mercy for her, yet she did not always feel his presence. She did however reach a point where she could no longer bear the pain of her losses. She prayed to God for help. He brought I Thessalonians 5:18 to her mind. It speaks of giving thanks in all things. It does not say give thanks only when your life is going right. Nothing in her life changed outwardly, but she did gain a heart for gratitude that changed her. Truly, without her faith, she would either be a miserable person or dead. The hymn "I need the every hour" probably became very dear to her.

Neither the book of Isaiah nor the rest of the Bible make any claims that rebuilding is easy. No, rebuilding after any tragedy or crisis in our lives is tough and takes time. Isaiah and the Bible does say that with God's help through prayer whatever rebuilding needs doing will be done by God's grace and power.

God still controls the world, even your world with unexplainable suffering. Your mind can neither contain nor control all knowledge. The important truth is that God can be trusted in the worst of circumstances as well as in the best. Thus, living by faith means far more than simply accepting suffering as a part of life.Living by faith means growing in your relationship with God, knowing his care and love more deeply as you trust God more thoroughly in prayer.

The author of "It Is Well WithMy Soul" must have been a great person of prayer to have written this hymn after such a personal family tragedy.

As you intercede for those most directly impacted by 9/11 and other tragedies, pray that each one will experience the reality of God knowing and understanding the intensity of their souls.

As you intercede for those most directly impacted by 9/11 and other tragedies, pray that each one will see their fight is not against other human beings, but against the spiritual attacks upon their souls in hope of leading them into evil attitudes and actions.

* Pray for God to help them fulfill the Bible's call to be angry and yet not sin.

* Pray for people to not nurse the pain forever, but to feel the pain and give it to God in prayer for his healing work.

* Pray for the healing of those whose lives are already or almost shipwrecked by bitter self-pity, unfocused anger, loveless fears, and wounded pride.

* Pray for people to refocus the energy of their anger toward making their country, state, county, community, workplaces, schools, churches, marriages, families, and hearts free from the sins that leads to inflicting terror into people's lives.

* Pray for people to believe and keep believing that with God's help, their life can be rebuilt

* Pray for others to know that God still controls the world, even their world with unexplainable suffering. Pray that they may trust God in the worst of circumstances as well as in the best.

Prayer

God our hope and refuge, we confess that anger and hatred have held on to us. Healing has begun, but loss is still real. We are not in control. We don't like being vulnerable. We still want security or the illusion of it. We still want our enemies to be annihilated and for our lives to return to safety and Shalom. Forgive us and heal us. Raise us to new life. Strengthen us in the way of compassion and justice. Fix our faith on you so we know that nothing can separate us from you, through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.

Reprinted from Candles in the Dark, Flames for the Future: Preaching and Poetry in Times for Crisis, ed. David Randolph (Albany, CA: New Way Media, 2003)

http://bachdevelopment.com/BACH7b.htm

For anyone who has gotten down this far, may I say that those who delve into religion deeply will come out of it with what they put in, a bias of their own making. This is not to say this is conciously done or that anyone outside of Christianity is stupid, far from fact. As for me, I have made a decision to be faithful to the risen Messiah using the bible as His Word. My faith is not swayed by argument, but based on relationship.

As for the tragedy we were discussing, my heart cries out to the world. My God has given us laws and principles to live by that would never allow such hatred. Yes there are those that use His Word to their own end, but again have not made a decision to live by God, but rather by their own wit and will. I find solace and peace in the relationship I have with my Lord and Master. Why did this happen, because there is evil. There is also a degredation of our pure DNA just by living so long as our species has (NO Racial inuendo here, we are in fact all the human race!). I will today, as I do everyday, pray for all my brothers and sisters in faith, for the hurt, lost, angry and defiled. I will also prya that my words may be put to the test and that I may treat all fellow humans as creations of the Most High. Even if some think I am some kind of kook :).

Pastor Richard Armstrong I know what it is like
being shot and left for dead I was shot Aug 3rd
1983 while working as a private security officer.
GOD saved my life that night at 9:30 I was unsaved
at that time guarding a mussage palor makeing
extra money on the side I got shot with a
357 Colt pyton 125 gr shell buiness hold up
with from a fromer custmer.

God, being in control of the universe, can prevent suffering whenever He sees fit, but wherever free will exists, consequences of choice must also exist. We refuse to remember that we are the ones who betrayed God, not vice versa. We are the ones who listened to the lies of the evil one in the Garden of Eden. We chose to mistrust the heart of God. In breaking the one command He gave us, we set in motion a life of breaking His commands.

Being able to discipline oneself for the benefit of others is the very essence of maturity. Shantideva said, “All the joy the world contains, Has come through wishing happiness for others. All the misery the world contains, Has come through wanting pleasure for oneself (at the expense of others).” How we spend our time shapes who we are, and how we assemble the persons we are is cause for social concern. What examples are adults, entrusted with the awesome responsibility for their care, to the rapidly maturing next generation who will impact our society positively or negatively depending on to what we expose them. We have experienced the natural progression of an unguarded nation towards neglect, corruption and the loss of idealism. When awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 1989, the Dalai Lama said in his lecture, “…For if we each selfishly pursue only what we believe to be in our own interest, without caring about the needs of others, we end up harming not only others but also ourselves…” One does not have far to look to witness the chaos and devastation caused in our society due to our turning away as a nation from our Judeo-Christian roots. Our culture is rotting. Just listen to the lyrics of popular songs, pick up a book or magazine, view a movie or television show. Pay attention to the violence permeating our communities, the disrespect and lack of courtesy displayed by all, judicial tyranny, and the neglect of and abuse directed at women. (Could this be a direct result of pornography? Duh!) Then consider that perhaps we are allowing the wrong input in our lives and the lives of those who have been entrusted to our care. After all, we are raising our next generation of leaders!!! Words like diversity, pluralism and tolerance have anesthetized us to the reality of good and evil. Tolerance is the cultivation of an attitude of indifference to things we see happening around us. In the name of peace, we tolerate evil. In the name of tolerance, we accept sin and call it freedom of speech or freedom of sexual persuasion. Albert Einstein once said, “The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don’t do anything about it.” We dare not stand up for what we believe for fear of being labeled intolerant. Tolerance sees your sin and embraces it. Grace sees your sin and hands you over to Christ's healing embrace.

God cannot make us choose to abide with Him. For now, God, tormented, waits upon us through one holocaust after another. satan’s best deception is its general success in concealing its own reality from the human mind. Most people live in such naivete regarding evil. What will it take for us to take evil seriously? satan lashes out on the earth like a madman, setting people against each other all over the globe. it devastates many lives through starvation, alcoholism, substance abuse and pornography. satan is at work in the holocaust of violent, disrespecting aborting of babies; narcissism; materialism; elitism; and the self-absorption we wallow in when we do not ensure our next generation is brought up in a culture with enriching, wholesome values. Failing to label evil evil misleads us about the world in which we live and our necessity for God’s grace, the only real answer and hope for any of us. If you are not living in touch with God, it is easy to blame Him or pass judgment on Him. We experience suffering and temptation because mankind chose to follow satan. Lurking in the heart of man, evil will erupt when it is permitted to act unimpeded.

Entrusted with the awesome responsibility of my children’s care, I am concerned about how their generation is being raised, to what they are being exposed, and the examples they have in their lives. Are they being enriched in mind, spirit and character? They all need highly esteemed mentors to guide them along the path to liberty. If we don’t stand for something, we will fall for anything. “The humblest citizen of all the land, when clad in the armor of a righteous cause, is stronger than all the hosts of Error,” - William Jennings Bryan. Hopefully, seeking our own pleasure is not the measure of our lives. We are called to be intolerant in love. Why not live as Philippians 4:8 instructs us to: Whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. God is reaching out to rescue us … God made nature to sing His praises, to declare His glory and to love Him. He made humans with the ability to choose. He could have ordered our obedience; instead, he calls for our heart.

With all this discussion of good and evil, yin and yang, bible v bible; wouldn’t it be safe to say this is exactly why the world is in turmoil?
No one person can say 'although I feel this way, I will allow you to feel that way, as long as we can respect the other without condemnation.'
Put aside your personal beliefs for a moment.
Look at how the children (whom later grow to be the leaders of this country) of our society are being impacted. We think at puberty children do not need to be disciplined or to be parented. That is vastly false. Children need nurturing and discipline long after adolescents. I still am learning from my elder’s everyday. With as lazy as our society has become, as selfish and pleasure driven our society has become, is it any wonder why we continue to raise terrorist within our own communities? It takes a village people, and the sooner we can realize we are all responsible for our actions and not blame God (whoever you claim that to be, or if you believe) for every injustice, the sooner we can begin to grow and really bring up 'the next generation.'

Mr Mark,

If you are still on this thread:

For some reason, I've always been able to pick up on muddier English accents (maybe because I love the Beatles so much), so Extras and British Office are no sweat for me.

I love G4 - ever watch Braniac?

Haven't seen Borat yet, but I watch the Ali G show...he's funnier as Funkyzeit Mit Bruno, IMO.

Andrea -

I am a big "Curb" fan as well. I've tried Extras and the Brit version of The Office, but I must admit that my ear has a hard time tuning into and deciphering the quick patter (and the accents) of Mr Gervais et al. I miss half the jokes and it gets frustrating.

My son turned me on to "Arrested Development." We never watched the show when it was in production. It then showed up on his G4 gamer network where we caught it and got hooked. I got the entire 3-seasons on DVD for my son last Xmas.

BTW - if you're looking for a real laugh riot, I suggest the "Borat" movie. I haven't laughed that hard in years! Real over-the-top humor.

I really do have to try to remember my name; these other Anonymous posters are making ME sound like a nutcase! Sorry all! The talks above with Mr. Mark were me.

Mr Mark,

The Office...oh my word..is brilliant. Did you see any of the episodes from the British Office? I recommend getting those dvds as well. You might also enjoy Curb Your Enthusiasm and Extras, if you don't already enjoy them.

Anon,

Does Got take ownership of all the bad stuff under the sun?

Locke was wrong: Man cannot, without temerity, claim what comes from the Earth as his own. Women, on the other and, can have whatever they want. But remember, everything under the sun is God's; everything above the sun, that's free pickings.

Who can say they own beets? Beets are God's alone to own.

Dear Anonymous -

I have a soft spot for ""Earl" as well, though the concept tires when the shows are rerun.

My current fav is "The Office." Very funny stuff that most of us can relate to. I have the first two seasons on DVD and watch them quite frequently.

Who owns a beet farm?

Sorry for lumping. I was carrying over a frustration that I found in another, earlier post. I agree, Mr Mark, that it is far more enjoyable to engage in a calm discussion with people about their beliefs than to insult them. I hope we can continue to have calm discussions without people judging one another's characters.

Mr. Mark:

I watch those channels all the time! I hardly ever watch the networks anymore (except for "My Name is Earl", my one guilty pleasure that I must admit to!) I cannot get enough of all of those science and history documentaries and studies. And to think I hated history when I was in school...

praxirev wrote:
"Just to offer some clarification to those writing about Thomas' comments regarding Columbine and Cassie Bernal.

"Both Cassie and another Christian student by the name of Rachel Scott were in the library at Columbine; both were shot and killed. At least one of them was heard to have confessed their faith in Christ before being shot. There was confusion as to which of the girls actually made this statement."

Wrong.

Cassie Bernal was not the person who confessed her faith. This has been known and reported on since 1999.

The girl to whom the murderer actually spoke the words "do you believe in God?" Valeen Schnurr, said "yes" and she was spared. BTW - she had already been shot when the killer asked her that question, and she wasn't killed.

Here's an article on the subject

Who said "Yes"?

Local reporters have known for months that eyewitnesses disputed the account of Cassie Bernall's "martyrdom." So why did the truth take so long to see print?

By Dave Cullen

Sept. 30, 1999 | LITTLETON, Colo. --

Emily Wyant knew from the beginning: Columbine "martyr" Cassie Bernall never said "Yes."

Wyant, who survived the Columbine massacre April 20, told the FBI months ago that the famous "unlikely martyrdom of Cassie Bernall," immortalized in a best-selling book by Cassie's mom, Misty, never happened. She told Misty and Brad Bernall, Cassie's parents, the same account, and she also told the Rocky Mountain News.

But it wasn't until Sept. 24, one day after Salon News broke the story that investigators doubted Bernall's famous gunpoint declaration of faith, that the News printed a long story detailing Wyant's account.

How did the paper react so quickly, with a detailed, never-before-public account of Bernall's death, a day after the new revelations? Sources at the paper confirm that the details weren't actually new at all: They'd been sitting on the story for quite some time. The News ran the article nearly five months after obtaining the true story from Wyant, and two weeks after running news stories promoting the release of "She Said Yes:
The Unlikely Martyrdom of Cassie Bernall" -- news stories that presented the account of Bernall's martyrdom as fact.

The Denver Post didn't get its new Bernall stories into print until
Saturday. It followed up on Tuesday, after the paper was able to
interview Valeen Schnurr, the young Columbine student who was asked by one of the killers if she believed in God -- after she'd been shot. But the Post had been aware of rumors that the Bernall story was not true earlier than that, though it had not confirmed them, according to assistant city editor Evan Dreyer. "We had heard it; we were working on it," he said.

The belated media outing of the truth about Cassie Bernall raises
questions about why the story took so long to find its way into print. Misty Bernall's book landed on the Publishers Weekly bestseller list at No. 14 this week, with 350,000 copies in print and more than 250,000 already sold, according to the publisher. In the past three weeks, the Bernalls have appeared on Today, 20/20 and Larry King Live, among others.
The story has inspired a massive surge in Christian youth groups' recruitment around the country and overseas.

Emily Wyant watched with disbelief as the Bernall myth mushroomed. "Once she started hearing all that, she said, 'That didn't happen. Why are they saying that?'" her mother recalls. The girl kept waiting for investigators or news reporters to refute the myth, so she would not have to come forward herself.

"She never wanted to ever, ever say anything against it," says her mother, who did not want her first name used because of community sensitivity about the Bernall controversy. "She just was real frustrated with it, and she just kept saying, 'But that never happened. Why are they saying that?' That's the thing that bothered her."

Wyant is the only living person who actually witnessed Bernall's death. She was hiding beneath a table right beside Cassie when it happened. "Emily was right there next to her, and in fact, she was looking right in her eyes, so you'd think she would be able to hear that, being right next to her, if anything was exchanged. And she can't remember anything being said," Wyant explained.

more here: http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/salon.htm

Anonymous wrote:
Mr. Mark wrote:

"contrary to what some people think, there are Christians who strive to know the truth. And we can't find that truth without a lot of studying of our religions and many others, using many sources and over many years, as well as a lot of soul-searching. And while some Biblical translations might be pretty to read, they do nothing for the search for Biblical truth; toward that end, a very good translation is important to find."

Your point is taken.

Could I make a suggestion?: in your search for "the truth," you might do well to take in the occasional science program on PBS, The Science Channel or even the Discovery Network. Who knows what truths will be revealed through such sources?

Anonymous wrote:
Mr. Mark wrote:

"contrary to what some people think, there are Christians who strive to know the truth. And we can't find that truth without a lot of studying of our religions and many others, using many sources and over many years, as well as a lot of soul-searching. And while some Biblical translations might be pretty to read, they do nothing for the search for Biblical truth; toward that end, a very good translation is important to find."

Your point is taken.

Could I make a suggestion?: in your search for "the truth," you might do well to take in the occasional science program on PBS, The Science Channel or even the Discovery Network. Who knows what truths will be revealed through such sources?

Just to offer some clarification to those writing about Thomas' comments regarding Columbine and Cassie Bernal.

Both Cassie and another Christian student by the name of Rachel Scott were in the library at Columbine; both were shot and killed. At least one of them was heard to have confessed their faith in Christ before being shot. There was confusion as to which of the girls actually made this statement.

There is a book called 'Rachel's Tears' that I would highly recommend, which describes a very real teenager's relationship with God in the year leading up to the tragic events in Columbine. It's worth your time.

Mr. Mark wrote:

"At the end of the day, competing Biblical translations is a zero-net game, isn't it?"

I really don't think it is. Because contrary to what some people think, there are Christians who strive to know the truth. And we can't find that truth without a lot of studying of our religions and many others, using many sources and over many years, as well as a lot of soul-searching. And while some Biblical translations might be pretty to read, they do nothing for the search for Biblical truth; toward that end, a very good translation is important to find.

Anonymous wrote:

"Mr. Mark,

"You are generalizing when you say "the new translations" as though they are all bad."

And you are putting words in my mouth. I never said that the new translations were all bad. What I'm saying is that one can find a translation - old, new, good, flawed, indifferent - to support whatever they want to think about the Bible.

Truth be told, I don't put much stock in the KJV as being accurate in translating the Hebrew *for today's readers,* but the KJV translation may have made its point to the readers of its time. How are we to know that the word "evil" wasn't read as meaning "calamity" back in the day?

My point is that if you are depending on a translation - any translation - to read the Bible, then you are not only a few steps removed from direct absorbtion of the material, you are putting yourself at the mercy of the prejudices and agendae of the translator. Something is ALWAYS lost in translation, even in the best translations. You may well find the NASB to be the best, most-literal, closest-to-the-truth translation available, while a Biblical scholar or an altar boy might find it full of errors and unreliable.

At the end of the day, competing Biblical translations is a zero-net game, isn't it?

Mr. Mark,

Of course the only way someone can know exactly what the Bible says is to read the orginal Hebrew and Greek text, or its literal translation, or study under someone who can read it. The next best thing is to have a Bible that is as close to a literal translation as you can get. So far, the closest one I have been able to find is the NASB, and I very often refer to Hebrew and Greek translations to check it. (By the way, the NASB refers to "nakedness" in the part of Leviticus you refer to above.) You are generalizing when you say "the new translations" as though they are all bad.

Anonymous wrote:

"Mr. Mark,

"Your citing of the different translations only proves my point even more, not less. There are different translations because someone thought something sounded "better" a different way, or "prettier" another way, or was more "readable" written differently, not because they were being true to the original scriptural text. There is no law anywhere that says when you edit a new Bible it must be written strictly by original Hebrew and Greek translation. People who want that have to seek it out. And people who don't actively seek that out will often be getting a version that gives them a general idea, but the wording that the editors chose can often give very different meanings when taken literally, as you do when you insist on using the KJV as a literal translation."

First off, I have never said that the KJV was in any way a "literal" translation. I have said that it is "still considered the standard." By "standard," I mean that it is 1) still in use throughout the world, 2) that it portrays the Biblical narrative in general way, if not in the more-specific way of study Bibles and newer, more-literal translations, and 3) that it is an equal blend of narrative and poetry (especially as poetry is wanting in many more-literal translations).

FYI - I had a discussion on this board a few months ago about Leviticus (a discuss that was actually promopted by a discussion of whether or not David & Jonathan were homosexual lovers). I took the position that the phrase "seeing nakedness" was KJV speak for engaging in sexual acts. I argued this from the perspective of newer translations of the Bible which translated seeing people naked as having sexual relations with them. I was challenged by a poster who pointed out that in the Jewish tradition, there was a sin involved in seeing people naked that was a separate issue from having sex with them. He argued that the KJV was right in making that distinction, that seeing your mom naked had nothing to do with having sex with her, and that the new translations got it wrong on many levels. I must say that at the end of the discussion, I ended up siding with his reading of that text. It gave me a different perspective on those verses and - in this particular instance - proved to me, at least, that the KJV was a more-reliable text in a LITERAL sense than were the new translations that were more up-to-date and specific in their translations.

I would say that if you really want to know what the Bible says, then you SHOULD take the time to learn both Greek and Hebrew. Why depend on translations when you can read the thing in the original language?

Of course, once you can read Hebrew, you still have to deal with midrash...and that can change what you thought the printed text meant in the Hebrew as well.

Andrea,

By his "brand", I was referring to his "type", specifically the ones on here who typically jump to attack the religious beliefs and customs of others as stupid, meaningless fantasy. There is no reason for that here. The whole point of this forum is to have "respectful conversation... about faith and its implications in a way that sheds light rather than generates heat."

Mr. Mark,

Your citing of the different translations only proves my point even more, not less. There are different translations because someone thought something sounded "better" a different way, or "prettier" another way, or was more "readable" written differently, not because they were being true to the original scriptural text. There is no law anywhere that says when you edit a new Bible it must be written strictly by original Hebrew and Greek translation. People who want that have to seek it out. And people who don't actively seek that out will often be getting a version that gives them a general idea, but the wording that the editors chose can often give very different meanings when taken literally, as you do when you insist on using the KJV as a literal translation.

Anon,

Do you only judge Mavaddat's brand of atheists then?

"How short-sighted and quick to judge your brand of atheist is. It's a good thing I am not like you, and do not judge all atheists by your example."

Mavaddat:

You apparently do exactly the same thing that Bill C. does, lumping me in with "other fundamentalists who think that it is their way or the highway." (Oh, by the way, I'm not a fundamentalist.) How short-sighted and quick to judge your brand of atheist is. It's a good thing I am not like you, and do not judge all atheists by your example.

Cal says that God through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ has overcome evil.

Implicit in this view is that the whole world is some sort of quality control testing ground used by God to find his elect. Or something. In the mean time, there is plenty of evil to go around in the here and now.

Phaedrus is absolutely correct that Cal's world view leads to a personification of evil, and represents an abdication of responsibility to seek out its real-world causes and remedies.

I am a college professor and find these events hitting far too close to home. Nevertheless, I must remind people that 33 senseless dead is an average day in Iraq, and I don't hear the same pious wails about what is happening there from Cal's circle. I mention this because the senseless killings there were in large measure set in motion by actions taken in the name of our country. It may be tacky to point it out, but it needs to be said.

"He expresses a common frustration that many of us share toward people like you and other fundamentalists who think that it is their way or the highway."

Mavaddat, I share that frustration on a very personal level. But dammit, if he wants to criticize the fundamentalist attitude, he needs to do it intelligently. The late Molly Ivins once wrote that fundamentalists aren't evil, they're scared.

Almond, you're exactly right about the offensiveness of Thomas' comment about "where we shall spend eternity." It is wrong to attempt to define people based on their one's religious beliefs or theirs, especially after such a horrific event.

And Bill C., that also applies to your offensive "knuckle dragger" comment. I see your post as a attempt to get people angry for no valid reason. When you insult people based on their beliefs, that is not only wrong, but it also hampers the goal of protecting the individual's freedom of conscience. People ought to be entitled to follow their own spiritual paths without the Thomases damning them to hell or the Bill Cs calling them stupid.

Anonymous, you are wrong about Bill C. He expresses a common frustration that many of us share toward people like you and other fundamentalists who think that it is their way or the highway.

Mr Mark and Bill C., I thank you for your exposure of foolishness, and I thank you to continue to shed the light of reason on these and other matters.

Dear Anonymous -

You can cite Bibles that translate things the way YOU wish to see them, and I can do the opposite.

You give the impression that it's only the ancient KJV that gives the translations I cited. That's not true. Here's how Isaiah 45:7 shows up in various versions:

" I form the light and create darkness, I make peace [national well-being] and I create [physical] [a]evil (calamity); I am the Lord, Who does all these things. - The Amplified Bible

"I am the one who forms light and creates darkness;
the one who brings about peace and creates calamity." - New English Bible

"I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things." - American Standard Version

" I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe, I am the LORD, who do all these things." - RSV

"I make peace, and create evil." - New Jerusalem Bible

"I form light and create darkness, I make success and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things." - Holman Christian Standard Bible

" I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things" - New International Version

One could go on and on, but to what end? The only thing we've learned here is that most of the Bibles currently in use by the world's Xians are translated incorrectly.

As per the contemporary Christian theologian, Father Edward Schillebeeckx, (from his book, Church, the History of God,Crossroad, 1993, p.91 (softcover)

"Christians must give up a perverse, unhealthy and inhuman doctrine of predestination without in so doing making God the great scapegoat of history" . "Nothing is determined in advance: in
nature there is chance and determinism; in the world of human activity there is possibility of free choices. Therefore the historical future is not known even to God; otherwise we and our history would be merely a puppet show in which God holds the strings. For God, too, history is an adventure, an open history for and of men and women."
And with this profound observation, Schillebeeckx rendered all prophets, i.e. Isaiah, Jesus, Mohammed, Smith et al, and prophecies moot!!!!!

It also unfortunately explains the tragedies of incidents like the massacre at VT and the daily suicide bombings in Iraq i.e. WE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR OUR ACTIONS.

This stubborn persistence in positing an entity called "evil," and then assigning causal power to it, merely results in continued ignorance as to the actual causal factors for real events.

The brain tumor in Charles Whitmans hypothalamic region was not "evil," it just "was." And it played a primary causal role in the killing of 16 other people. Of course, if everyone throughout time had been satisfied with assigning "evil" as the cause for every painful event, we would never have known what a brain tumor was, or how behavior is affected in those who have them. If one really wants to understand how natural events occur, one must study the natural world itself. The rest is merely fiction.

Mr. Mark,

Just because you can make it sound right in your mind, doesn't mean it sounds right to everyone else. Misquoting "just because others do it" is just plain stupid. It's not a justification, and it doesn't make your quotation correct.

The KJV is NOT the standard, by any means. It translated words and phrases incorrectly, it uses wording that doesn't make sense, and it even made things up. It is far from original wording and meaning. People who know more about the Bible know where to find the more correct translations. The NASB does not "soften the impact" of the KJV, it corrects it.

Yesterday was not the result of evil? I think there are many, many people who will disagree with you on that one.

Anonymous wrote:
"Mr. Mark,

"You take the 2 Kings verse out of context. That verse is a person cursing God for the choices that man made. It is not a messenger of God telling us what God is like."

I am simply following the tradition used by those who quote the Bible. For instance, Xians belief in a virgin birth, yet the verses in Isaiah that they cite not only DON'T use the Hebrew word for "virgin," but the verses come from a story about King Ahaz, not as a prophecy. Still these verses are the basis for a dogma that permeates the entire Xian church.

So, you'll excuse me if I'm doing what the major religions do every day of the week, ie: taking select Bible verses out of context and presenting them as prophecy or worse, as fulfillment of prophecy (a la John's Gospel).

"As for the other 2 verses you quote, the translation I use (NASB), which is extremely close to original, shows the word that you have as "evil" as "calamity". Though you will probably disagree, there is a difference between the two. A calamity is an event that brings a loss, or a disaster. Evil is morally bad, wrong, and wicked."

I'll disagree because one can always find a translation that softens the impact of earlier translations. I have cited the KJV as it is still considered the standard.

As far as the difference between "evil" and "calamity," I would posit that yesterday's events were a calamity, not the result of evil. In that respect, yesterday's killings stand as a "calamity" created by god, as god is the creator of calamity (at least in your translation).

Ergo, my point is valid, even within the context of your preferred translation.

Bill C.,

Your post has shown you to be a crass, dehumanizing, intolerant, malicious person who has added nothing to this discussion except hatred. You and your malevolence are not welcome here.

Mr. Mark,

You take the 2 Kings verse out of context. That verse is a person cursing God for the choices that man made. It is not a messenger of God telling us what God is like.

As for the other 2 verses you quote, the translation I use (NASB), which is extremely close to original, shows the word that you have as "evil" as "calamity". Though you will probably disagree, there is a difference between the two. A calamity is an event that brings a loss, or a disaster. Evil is morally bad, wrong, and wicked.

Almond-

"Does Cal Thomas really believe that, of all the dead at VTech, those who accepted christ are now sitting happily with the lord, and those who happened to be muslim, buddhist, jewish, agnostic, etc. are getting tortured by satan?"

You posed a very good question. I wonder if any of our True Believers can answer it.

The fact that Cal Thomas is peddling that Cassie Bernall story just shows the typical mindset of tyhe Christian. If they are not too lazy to do minimal research then they just simply believe things they know to be untrue. I'm aware of the contradiction in that but such is religioous belief. I really want to know why he did that. He will of course provide no response as he is a halfwit, but maybe some similarly deluded knuckle dragger (aka: faith head) could tell me why this seems to be such a common aspect of the way religious people conduct their public discourse.

Dear Anonymous:

God created and creates evil:

Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

2 Kings 6:33 "And while he yet talked with them, behold, the messenger came down unto him: and he said, Behold, *this evil is of the LORD*; what should I wait for the LORD any longer?"

Amos 3:6 "Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? *shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?*"

Mr. Mark,

God did not create an evil angel named Satan. He created a very beautiful angel who became very vain and decided of his own "free will" that he wanted to be better than God. He chose to become evil. He was not created that way.

"the important question is not how many years we live on the earth, but where we shall spend eternity"

This is what I would like to know:

Does Cal Thomas really believe that, of all the dead at VTech, those who accepted christ are now sitting happily with the lord, and those who happened to be muslim, buddhist, jewish, agnostic, etc. are getting tortured by satan?

If so, not only is such thinking childish and ignorant, but it is likewise sickening in it's disrespect for the dead.

I could do with a little less of "faith enduring," especially when it's Cal Thomas' kind of faith:

* faith in the Republic party that opposes gun control
* faith in an adminstration whose sowing of death and destruction around the world invites the same here
* faith in a non-existant god to address problems that humans can and must deal with
* faith in himself that his is the only way

Faith is overrated, Mr Thomas. It didn't stop the carnage yesterday in Virginia, and it won't stop it today in Iraq.

And, BTW, Mr Thomas - for someone who supposedly knows the Bible, you are wrong to state that evil has existed "since the fall of man." Surely, you know that the evil that was Satan was tossed out of heaven before man was created. And, as Satan was an angel created by none other than Yahweh, we can say with absolute assurance that evil exists because god created it, not because man ate the wrong fruit and chose the wrong designer for his wardrobe.

Amen Silvlaro, amen.

I wrote this prayer last year. I send it out now with love to all those impacted by the recent events at Virginia Tech:

With Time...
The great builder, destroyer, healer...
May those who sorrow find comfort
May those in pain find relief
May there be strength for all
And may your spirit find peace

Author Silvlaro
© Copyright 2006

Before someone slams me for the following I want to say that no I do not think that what this person did is acceptable in any way. At the same time I believe that we are all accountable for our own actions and choices. I truly believe in the concept of free will and that those choices are there for a reason. We are not required to like the out come of said choices nor do we have to agree with them, just keep in mind that we all have the ability to make our own.

There are certain simple truths that we do not like to think about but which come to the forefront at times such as these…
Fact: there is no life with out death.
Fact: there is no death without life.
You cannot have one without the other. It is the balance of life … the circle if you will.

From personal experience I know it is difficult to find the “positive” in a situation when you are grieving. Even attempting to consider such a thing at that moment is unthinkable. We grieve for ourselves and the loss we have undergone, not for those we have lost. Yet objectivity is often what is required to begin the healing process.

I do not understand the need that society has for labeling something good or evil. Even a negative situation can have positive results eventually. While I agree that the choices we make can have a positive or negative effect on those around us, the effects lead to learning. Who is to say that each of the victims of this shooting would not have died or been injured in some other way had this person chosen not to commit the acts that he did? No one can say either way with total certainty.

Support the living, tend to the wounded and honor those who have passed through the veil. The pressures of daily life will intrude eventually, as they should, for life will go on.

May each find their own balance
Silvlaro

Actually Luke, I think you made the point well, with your historical references to events whose categorization as good or evil depends upon the vantage point of the viewer. The commonality of this underscores the fact that the concepts themselves reside in the minds of those same viewers.

Pheadrus, you schooled me. I am humble pie. You said exactly the point I was trying to make. Thanks.

How do we know that the gunman wasn't a Christian? Because he's Asian? 18% of South Koreans claim to be Protestant (probably evangelicals) and 10% are Roman Catholics. Many more are members of the Unification Church, which is related to Christianity.

Luke:

Although I think that you were a little rough on my friend Russell D, the point you make is well worth reiterating. "Good" and "Evil" are human concepts used for psychological reasons. They do not exist independent of human consciousness. IS the lion the bad guy and the zebra the good guy?

What happened at Va Tech has to do most directly with the causal contributors to the shooter's actions. It may turn out that, like Charles Whitman (Teaxas Tower case), there is a clear neurological link. We just don't know yet. But, whatever series of naturally occurring phenomena led up to this event, rest assured that they "are" naturally (as opposed to supernaturally) derived.

are so full of crap it's unbelievable.