Syndicated political columnist and “On Faith” panelist Cal Thomas has a twice-weekly column that appears in over 500 newspapers around the world. A graduate of American University, Thomas is a veteran of broadcast and print journalism. He has worked for NBC, CNBC, PBS television, and the Fox News Channel where he currently appears on the weekly media critique show, “Fox News Watch.” Thomas has authored ten books, including Blinded by Might: Can the Religious Right Save America?, A Freedom Dream, Public Persons and Private Lives, Book Burning, Liberals for Lunch, Occupied Territory, The Death of Ethics in America, Uncommon Sense and Things That Matter Most. His latest was The Wit and Wisdom of Cal Thomas. In 1995, Thomas was honored with a Cable Ace Award nomination for Best Interview Program. Other awards include a George Foster Peabody team reporting award, and awards from both the Associated Press and United Press International. Common Ground, which Thomas writes for USA Today, offers insightful discussion of contentious social issues with his friend and political counterpart, Bob Beckel. The two are working together on a book to be published in 2007.
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Cal Thomas
Syndicated political columnist
Syndicated political columnist and “On Faith” panelist Cal Thomas has a twice-weekly column that appears in over 500 newspapers around the world. A graduate of American University, Thomas is a veteran of broadcast and print journalism.
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The atomic bomb will not destroy the earth.The
global warming will not destroy the earth. God
created the earth and he will destroy every
thing thats ungodlly on earth, but not the
earth itself. For in the mellineum He will
rule from the throne of David in Jerusalem.
The earth He created will remain forever.This
will happen when the unbeliever has had every chance to recieve Christ as savior and redeemer.
The atomic bomb will not destroy the earth.The
global warming will not destroy the earth. God
created the earth and he will destroy every
thing thats ungodlly on earth, but not the
earth itself. For in the mellineum He will
rule from the throne of David in Jerusalem.
The earth He created will remain forever.This
will happen when the unbeliever has had every chance to recieve Christ as savior and redeemer.
The atomic bomb will not destroy the earth.The
global warming will not destroy the earth. God
created the earth and he will destroy every
thing thats ungodlly on earth, but not the
earth itself. For in the mellineum He will
rule from the throne of David in Jerusalem.
The earth He created will remain forever.This
will happen when the unbeliever has had every chance to recieve Christ as savior and redeemer.
I also grew up in the Catholic Church and must say I attended Mass because that was expected of me...at the age of 16 a priest hit me on the head with a Catholic missal so hard I bit my tongue which bled profusely...all because I asked a question during religious instruction that he didn't approve of...I came to despise Catholicism and all religions, for that matter...I still have no use for religion...but once upon a time I knelt down and lashed out at the God I no longer believed in...I ranted and raved and pretty much told Him he would have to explain much if He expected me to believe in Him...my heart was seeking and honest before Him...He honors sincerity in seeking Him and He revealed Himself to me...it's not about religion...it's about relationship...and I honestly believe if Jesus was walking the earth today he would slam the tv preachers and religions just as he did 2,000 yrs ago....I have met the One who bore my sins and He is more real to me than my own reflection...
Come now,and let us reason together, says the Lord. Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson,they shall be like wool.
Believer wrote:
---You can hate Christians. You can hate what Christians have done. But I can't see how you can hate the one who said the words above. How can you deny Him? How can you not love Him?---
I have the utmost repect for Jesus and what he taught. I accept much of what he taught. I just wish most christians would do the same.
---He is everything to me. My soul aches that you don't know who he truly is.---
Too much of anything is, as they say, not a good thing. I believe I know who he truly was. A great man who spoke truth to many powers. But ascribing god-like powers to Jesus deminishes the work he did. Consider that he was one of us, a regular Joe. Then his accomplishments really rise above anything that came before or since. But giving him god-like powers and a Godly directed mission that he cannot ignore, I think, gives the impression that what he did was not his own work but directed by God. That Jesus was just along for the ride. I don't believe that. I think, based on the evidence, that Jesus was a great man who thought for himself, putting truth and honesty before religion and the religious heiarchy. Something the church that was created in his name does not condone.
Not believing in a God I find Jesus an amazing guy who today, I think, would go into every church and rip out its gold and jewels and hand them out to the poor. He'd call the Pope a Ceasar-wannabe. He'd look at how we live in segregated communities and how we treat one another and ask us why we do so. He'd wonder how christians could start a war on a country that did nothing to us nor threatened us. I never hear christians ask if Jesus would have invaded Iraq. If Jesus would lower taxes on the rich but maintain them on the middle and lower classes. If Jesus would approve of political cronies with no ability leading governmental institutions. If Jesus would approve of an interracial marriage. I do think Jesus would approve of the American constitution, of its guaranteed freedoms and liberties. I think Jesus would wonder why a christian president would toss the constitution aside and spy on Americans and ask why christians are so afraid of death that they would deny another person's freedom to avoid it. If you think you truly know Jesus, you would know that much of what christianity is today would not be approved by him. But, as you imply, Jesus himself was one awesome dude.
To expand on Jeannie's point and one of Fate's points, when I think of something greater than myself, I think of nature and the universe. I prefer that instead of the idea of a higher intelligence that must be pleased or placated.
Jeannie wrote:
---A challenge to those who don't believe in a higher intelligence than themselves....if you were incorrect would you want to know that?---
Sure! As an atheist I seek the truth. Consider the alternate question you should ask yourself: If God is a delusion would you want to know that?
---The Challenge? Kneel down and ask the creator to reveal Himself to you if indeed He is real...if you seek in sincerity you will find...if you have the courage.---
I've done this. I spent 15 years in Catholic schools, 30 years kneeling in Catholic church. I watched physical abuse (corporal punishments) handed out by high minded nuns and priests. I saw little in the form of forgiveness and a lot of judgementalism. I saw families hounded and intimidated because their "offerings" to the church were too small. And you can guess what happened to me at 12 years old when I openly questioned the existance of God in what I thought was an honest question.
Jeannie, when you look at the world, really look at it, its people, its cultures, its religions, you will see that religion is a commonality in man's nature. We even see it long before Christ or even the Hebrew God came on the scene. My challenge to you is to ask yourself what you would do if you were given convincing evidence God did not exist. Could you handle the news or would you dismiss it out of hand prefering to continue the illusion? I'm not trying to convert you, just get you to understand that much of what you believe has been drilled into you and natural for you to accept. Don't you think its a strange coincidence that Catholics have kids that grow up to be catholics and bussists have kids that grow up to be buddists? Consider that you did not have a choice as to what you believe and you are happily now living in the delusion you were taught to believe. Just consider it, that's my challenge.
As for Cal's answer, he leaves out the concept of WHO will be allowed to live in that new earth. Funny thing, its people of the same religion who wrote the scritpture. How convenient, how self deluding.
Jeannie - are you implying that people who don't "kneel down and ask the creator to reveal himself" are wimps?
If so, how do you know? For instance, is that in the Bible somewhere?
You sound pretty grandiose and sure of yourself, but honestly, I never heard that all anyone needed to do to see the creator was to kneel down and sincerely ask him to reveal himself, and that only a lack of courage would prevent it. To me, this sounds very intimidating and not at all what I associate with a loving God. It seems more like a scare tactic.
By the way, I don't mind being incorrect about just about anything. I'm always willing to change my thinking based on new input.
A challenge to those who don't believe in a higher intelligence than themselves....if you were incorrect would you want to know that?
The Challenge? Kneel down and ask the creator to reveal Himself to you if indeed He is real...if you seek in sincerity you will find...if you have the courage.
Yea, we know. Well, some of us know I guess. It's not like people have to log-in with a user name and password. I accidentally posted with someone elses name once in a conversation. Of course, my intention wasn't to be a troll.
You are a baptist right? A buddy invited me to a mens retreat last night at a local baptist church. It was the first time I've been in a church like that for a service in about 15 years.
Guys,
What Mr. Cal probably needs is a weekend on Castro Street in S.F. to loosen him up and get rid of his
stupid opinions on gays. He'd probably immediately head for the Jaguar Bookstore to prime his pump.
Brambleton wrote:
"I take back everything I've said. I apologize.
"Last night I had a revelation. I had gay sex, tons of it. And it was great. Amazing. I found god during my gay sex. But it wasn't the god of the bible. It was a gay god. And I had sex with him too."
And you expect us to take anything you take seriously?
"My soul aches that you don't know who he truly is."
Believer, while I respect your good intentions, your personal religious beliefs are not about anyone but yourself. The same goes for anyone's religious beliefs, including my own.
"You can hate Christians. You can hate what Christians have done. But I can't see how you can hate the one who said the words above. How can you deny Him? How can you not love Him?"
1. I don't hate Xians and neither does anyone else. Stop playing the victim.
2. Sensible people can hate what Xians have done and also hate what non-Xians have done. They can love what Xians have done and love what non-Xians have done. The fact is that an actual existing god doesn't enter into it.
3. The "one who said the words above" never existed. Once you realize that, a lot falls into place. There's no need to deny or not love someone who never existed.
4, "He is everything to me." Really? Would you lay down your life for him? How about the lives of your immediate family? Early Xians did just that, and well after Jesus supposedly left this Earth. Be honest.
Take your questions and insert the name "Zeus" where you say Jesus or he and you'll find that you are almost an atheist yourself.
I suspect that it's bad form to point out spelling errors, but I loved the freudian ship in "Believer"'s post - crucifiction. It should of course be crucifixion. I think he is probably well served by his imaginary friend, but why does he care whether anyone else believes in him?
Last night I had a revelation. I had gay sex, tons of it. And it was great. Amazing. I found god during my gay sex. But it wasn't the god of the bible. It was a gay god. And I had sex with him too.
"Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
"O righteous Father, although the world has not known You, yet I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me;
and I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known, so that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them."
John 14:24-26
(Jesus praying for His Disciples before his crucifiction)
You can hate Christians. You can hate what Christians have done. But I can't see how you can hate the one who said the words above. How can you deny Him? How can you not love Him?
He is everything to me. My soul aches that you don't know who he truly is.
Every time I stop by and read some of the posts I am amazed at the way the two sides of the issue talk past each other. Cal pretty much sucks vacuum as far as I am concerned, and I have trouble believing anyone takes him seriously. I think the problem is faith itself. I would be able to understand everything if I would just have "faith". I would be able to see green men as well if I only I had sufficient faith in green men. The fact that someone believes something through faith is meaningless to those without the rose-tinted glasses. I suspect the reason so many non-believers continue to post here is that we have trouble "believing" that those of "faith" don't recognize that there is no emperor inside the clothes. We are all in the position of looking at the empty suit and exclaiming "Where's the Emperor." By the way, trotting out Pascal's Wager for the nth time is just lame along with Aquinas' proofs of the existence of god.
Cal Thomas is a darling of the Religious Right. I don't deny his right to chirp away in writing columns and speaking out on this blog, but I don't accept much of what he says. He has proved himself to be a homophobe and gay-basher, so who can trust anything that comes out of his mouth.
OK, all you fundies have now had your say. It is now time for reality. Let's face it, the following are reality:
1) There was no "Fall" in human history: that story like most of Genesis and the rest of the Hebrew Scripture is myth and or fiction.
2) The stories about Jesus in the NT are largely fiction, written forty years or more after his death...if indeed he really lived.
3) The Church as we know it...divided and splintered into thousands of pieces...is based on a settlement that was made possible by Emperor Constantine at the Council of Nicea, at which mostly Eastern bishops participated. At least it got the Christians off his back and he could rest quietly as a non-christian (he was baptized on his death bed).
4) Science trumps most if not all religion.
5) Religion is an addictive agent just like nicotine, alcohol and a host of other goodie drugs. Once you get released from this addiction you can smell the roses and enjoy reality.
Going to Church, like I did for years, was mainly, I now see, for the music, the ceremony, and coffee hour. I was an Episcopalian...and what better place for these than that!
Mr Mark and Tonio answered your questions quite well. Two points, though.
We are not legally a Christian nation, but the majority of Americans are Christian. The voting statistics you cite against same-sex marriage demonstrate that quite well. Even states outside the bible belt are majority christian.
Finally, your bias and lack of understanding of science is well demonstrated by your fourth point. The evidence for evolution is overwhelming. Evolutionary theory is used every single day by doctors and scientists the world over. Without an understanding of evolution, we couldn't develop effective flu vaccines every year. You can keep throwing out the silly "I'm not an ape" statements (no one said you were, although you are closely related to apes), but your underlying point here is uneducated and wrong.
1. You're absolutely right that the Christian belief about homosexuality does not inherently equate to discrimination. And yes, many non-Christians also view homosexuality as immoral. The individual has the right to his or her own beliefs about homosexuality. However, such beliefs should dictate only the individual's behavior, not society's behavior or government's laws. Gay marriage poses no intrinsic harm to society or to straight people, so government has no compelling interest in banning it.
3. Again, many non-Christians also oppose embryonic stem-cell research. There are valid moral arguments for opposing it that have nothing to do with any religion's doctrine. The problem, as I see it, is that some (not all) Christians justify their opposition by insisting they know what God wants on the issue. That group justifies its stance on gay marriage with the same claim. Such claims by themselves are not sufficient basis for law.
4. As I mentioned elsewhere, most Christians do not oppose Darwin's hypothesis of natural selection. True, the hypothesis contradicts a literal reading of Genesis, but then most Christians and Christian denominations do not subscribe to Biblical literalism. My question is, why is there not agreement among Christians on how to read the Bible?
5. From my reading, there have been many studies showing the ineffectiveness of abstinence-only sex education. I tend to believe that contraception and abstinence are two ways of taking responsibility, although I also believe that most teenagers are generally not emotionally ready for intimacy. In any case, the individual is welcome to believe that premarital sex is immoral, but promoting that belief should not be the goal of sex education.
6. You're right that most Christians do not read Genesis and 2 Timothy as justifications for patriarchy. Unfortunately, the ones who do often are prominent ones, such as the Promise Keepers and James Dobson in his book "Love for a Lifetime."
1) Homosexual discrimination - I'm assuming you are referring to the gay marriage issue. Here are the %'s of voters in each state that voted FOR a ban on same sex marriage in 2006/2007: (AZ) 49%, (CO) 56%, (ID) 63%, (SC) 78%, (SD) 52%, (TN) 81%, (VA) 57%, (WI) 59%. I'm no geography major, but I'm pretty sure AZ, CO, ID, SD, and WI are clearly not part of the "Bible belt". It's obvious from these statistics that homosexual discrimination is NOT a Christian or religious issue. Unless, of course, you are willing to concede that the U.S. is a Christian state. Furthermore, the Bible refers to homosexuality as a sin, and many Christians believe the same way. HOWEVER, that belief does not equate to discrimination.
2) I have no idea what discrimination you refer to against non-believers and those of other faiths. Could you give me an example?
3) Stem cell research. Obviously, I can't speak for everybody, but Christians aren't against stem cell research (which uses adult cells/tissues). I know that's what CNN, Hillary, and all the other left wing rhetoric monkey's have told you, but it's not true. Christians, by and large, are against EMBRYONIC stem cell research. There's a BIG difference.
4) Real science - If you'd like to believe you're a monkey, that's fine. But please show me ANY source where humans have been DEFINITIVELY linked to apes. Don't bother, because you won't find it.
5) I believe what promotes promiscuity are videos to 6th graders about putting condoms on cucumbers. Sexually active children are a problem for both religious and non-religious families. The difference, of course, is that secular society has washed its hand of the problem by claiming that we're hard wired for sex and too weak to control our own impulses.
6) Women should stay at home? I'm sorry, but that's just absurd. I would guesstimate that the number of Christians who follow that logic out of some sort of Biblical adherence are extremely small in numbers.
"I agree with most of the things you said in your first post, but I'm not as certain as you seem to be that humankind is better now than in earlier times. Yes, there are many examples of compassion, mercy, etc. from both individuals and nations. On the other hand, the amount of human created misery (even in "advanced countries) is stageringly huge."
I think the point I was trying to make (which was obviously lost on Jimmy in his response to my post) was that acts of depravity that happen today are seen for what they are, ie: acts of depravity that lie well outside the norm of human behavior. Compare that to Biblical times when acts of depravity were the norm and accepted as a legitimate way of running a government or, worse, following god's laws.
Men will continue to do evil, but we no longer accept evils that were considered quite normal in the ancient world. My response was to a poster who averred that man had become more depraved since Biblical times. Yes, there is misery in the world, but misery is relative to its times, is it not? Americans living in American squalor are living the life of Riley compared to what passes for wealth in most of the world and what was considered a comfortable life in the ancient world.
What has changed dramatically since ancient times is our perception of human dignity and human rights. We no longer believe some humans are better than others, or that an elite is entitled to a life that most people are not allowed to aspire to. We don't propose that one human life is worth more than another human life, at least in principle if not in practice.
If it was true that mankind had become more depraved since Biblical times, then we should be going in the opposite direction of that which I've outlined above. We should be seeing a version of the Biblical social order on steroids.
I refuse to buy into the hopeless gambit of the religionists that mankind's very nature is evil, and that we can do nothing to improve our condition unless we give over our intelligence, our will, our determination and our better nature to some imaginary god who is going to fix the evil that he created. It's a cop out and, worse, it's defeatist.
I believe the evidence is overwhelming that we have advanced and that our nature has changed for the better...and we've done it without the help of the imaginary gods of the world's socio-political religions that seek to co-opt our birthright of goodness and compassion for their own depraved ends.
How about discrimination against homosexuals, non-believers or those of other faiths? Completely unsupportable but for religious reasons. How about opposition to stem cell research? The dangerous push towards conflict in the Middle East war as a sign of the return of Jesus? How about ignoring real science (evolution, global warming) because of the perception that they disprove religious beliefs? The movement among some to withhold the HPV (cancer) vaccine because of the ridiculous fear that it will promote promiscuity? The continued belief that women should stay at home. I don't need to cite scripture because believers can justify anything with the bible.
Not all Christians hold these ideas to be sure. But these are examples of how radical believers want to push us back to the dark ages.
Did not say there is no relevance also on our potential in this life, now did I. Your oblique allusion is obvious. Words such as smug are only meant to ridicule. Therefore, I see your views as more curt and cutting than a person who professes a belief in the God you deny, who realizes they may have a problem now and then with things they go thru in life or things they say, yet have a humility about them to admit to their God and mankind around them that they are human, they make mistakes and they strive to do better. If I were an outside observer, I would choose their way of life over an atheists view anyday.
DW - the only thing there "isn't" in atheism is a God. Individual atheists can have hope or not and certainly many atheists and other non-christians, can, as you say "...see the reality that there is no other creature like mankind, how wonderfully we were made, and the potential we possess."
Many focus on expressing human potential, here on earth, instead of feeling smug about knowing the right words to say to get into heaven.
>>In other words, Allmighty God is so insecure that unless you believe in him and all of the doctrines, he is going to punish you.
Not true. All will have a chance to know God. Punishment, if you will, will be man's decision solely. There is no human in hell or heaven right now. The bible, though, speaks of 3 resurrections, a renewal of the earth (as Cal Thomas stated) and no more death.
>> As the creator of the cosmos, he set it up that way.
He made man a free moral agent for a purpose.
>>How can anyone really believe this nonsense?
Quite frankly, very easily. There is no hope in atheism. Consider that Christians just put more thought and value into human excellence and potential, and see the reality that there is no other creature like mankind, how wonderfully we were made, and the potential we possess. Any person, Christian or atheist, that doesnt think this...put the blame on their thought process, dont put it on true Christian ethics.
I admit that I am strongly motivated to point out the inconsistencies and irrationalities of fundamentalist religions of all sorts because I believe that they are bad for the world.
Fundamentalists be they Christian, Jewish, or Muslim advocate disastrous social and political policies on the basis of "Truths" based on "Holy" texts of doubtful provenance, texts which in the Jewish and Christian case I know quite well. If people like Brambleton find it offensive and think I am mocking them, that is too bad. However respect has to be earned on the basis of something other than antiquity or truth claims based on something undefinable they call "faith".
I agree with most of the things you said in your first post, but I'm not as certain as you seem to be that humankind is better now than in earlier times. Yes, there are many examples of compassion, mercy, etc. from both individuals and nations. On the other hand, the amount of human created misery (even in "advanced countries) is stageringly huge.
I am not particularly concerned about what Cal or Kenny believe because at this time they don't have much power to persecute me or discriminate against me (but they may be getting there and some fundamental Christians (not Kenny or Cal) certainly would if they could).
What really bothers me is the vastly overworked assertion, "I know". The truth, I think, is that most of us don't KNOW nearly as much as we think we know and claim to know.
Now, concerning the end of the world, I BELIEVE Cal Thomas is dead wrong. I agree with other posters who believe it will end with a man made disaster or from natural causes (meteor, sun expansion, moon shift...) But I have been careful to avoid the "I know" assertion.
As a ghost who casually follows these boards, it seems like some of the "drivel" you described might be be getting under your skin? If you are a Christian, as you claim to be (I don't have reason to doubt you) I would encourage you not to fall into the the never ending back and forth. Based on their own belief system and the command to "love their enemies", Christians are to be held to a higher standard in conversation, even in an anonymous debate setting such as this. Would you agree?
I've learned that despite the colorful names we hide behind, there are real people on the other side of these postings. Some of them have good reason to trash Christians and their belief system with raw emotion. The pain is real, the offense to them is genuine, I guarantee it!
Anyways, I don't specifically argue for or against any belief system, not on these boards anyways. Maybe someday if I stick around. Doesn't make me any better than anyone else. I am more interested in reading thoughtful (or comical) opinions from all sides and doing my part on occasion to keep the marketplace of ideas open to all points of view. I'd say that despite the attempts of some on the right or left, this is a forum open for all types of opinion. Sure a troll may thrash a thoughtful commentary with nonsence. That doesn't mean the nonsence has to be answered or even read. We have to give people, even those with nothing to add but hatred freedom of speech, but we don't have to listen.
I don't get the opportunity to engage in religious debate with secularists very often. I figured that an "On Faith" forum would be as good a place as any. There have been some good discussions here and there, and I've picked up some different points of view that I probably had not thought about before.
Sadly, however, you'll find mostly drivel in a lot of these threads. There are a number of posters whose only contribution to any question posed by the panel is to demean, mock, and ridicule a particular religion. And then they turn around and complain about Christians being mean. Shocking. Perhaps they're intellectually challenged and should stick with watching "Are you smarter than a 5th grader".
RJones,
Could you please list the "archaic superstitions" that would return us to the dark ages? If you are referring to Christianity, reference to specific passages in the Bible will suffice. Thanks!
Believer: "For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Professing to be wise, they became fools."
Paul should be careful who he calls fools.
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. -- Mark 5:22 (KJV)
Or aren't you aware that slavery is illegal everywhere in the world? That billions of women are free to have jobs, to vote, to make something of their lives? That child labor is also illegal in most of the world? That freedom of information and travel means that I can have friends anywhere in the world?
There are certainly places where very bad things are happening every day. But this is nothing compared to 2000 years ago. Despite those whose adherence to archaic superstitions would return us to the dark ages, humanity has grown. There's still a long way to go, but to close your eyes to the reality of how far we come is to dishonor those who've sacrificed to get us here.
Or are you just bent out of shape because of the occasional breast on television?
Or aren't you aware that slavery is illegal everywhere in the world? That billions of women are free to have jobs, to vote, to make something of their lives? That child labor is also illegal in most of the world? That freedom of information and travel means that I can have friends anywhere in the world?
There are certainly places where very bad things are happening every day. But this is nothing compared to 2000 years ago. Despite those whose adherence to archaic superstitions would return us to the dark ages, humanity has grown. There's still a long way to go, but to close your eyes to the reality of how far we come is to dishonor those who've sacrificed to get us here.
Or are you just bent out of shape because of the occasional breast on television?
Jimmy
You need to read and understand the atrocities of the religious wars in europe. One reason people of europe aren't very religious is because they have suffered at the hands of the god fearing leaders. All the wars today have a religious theme to them. Most everything bad has happened because of religion one way or the other. I think it's because religious people don't respect this life. Since they will live at the right hand of god for ever and ever and have all the love and joy and peace and be happy ever after. Maybe if you had more respect for this life we wouldn't have so many wars.
"Perfect love was shown to us when God sent His own Son to die for us so that by merely accepting this love, we may have eternal life in God's presence."
I've never understood this. God torments his Son so that people can enter God's paradise.
Pacal's wager is a crock. What if Islam is correct? Aren't you really ticking off your god by being a Christian? What you lose by making this wager is your time, your money, your efforts, and you live your entire life believing a lie. I prefer the truth of reality.
Brambleton, Adam and Eve didn't exist, so the whole "fall" thing doesn't make any sense however you look at it.
Jimmy, what a pessimistic, cynical view. In general, people are undoubtedly more humane, more considerate towards others, than people were 2000 years ago. That you don't see that says lots about you and your philosophy.
Pascal's wager. The Christian is "betting" that there is an afterlife, a new earth, and that it is gained through Jesus. If indeed he is correct, then he gains everything. If he is wrong, as many writing to this blog believe, then the Christian loses nothing.
The non-believer is "betting" that there is no afterlife and no new earth. If he is right, he neither gains nor loses anything; but if he is wrong, he loses big time.
Mr. Mark Wrote
"Do daughters normally get pregnant by their fathers (like Lot's daughters) in our depraved times?" YES. "Do we condone slavery and the owning of people as property, to be used, abused, sexually assaulted and killed on a whim as they did in Biblical times?" YES "Do we sanction slavery?" YES. "Do today's leaders have multiple wives and concubines as did the great moral leaders of the Bible?" YES. "Do we crucify thousands of political dissidents as did the Romans?" YES. "Do we utterly slaughter people on a genocidal level and consider it all in a day's work for the Lord?" YES."The god of Israel demanded that Israel kill all of the men and children of their enemies and force the women into slavery. What equivalent is there to such god-sanctioned crimes in our "more-depraved times?" Oh let me see, how about beheading innocents for Allah, or blowing up little children for Allah. When you say "WE" you are including the entire world, not just America, so the answer is YES. NEXT QUESTION?
1) It's silly to say Cal and I blame man, and then turn around and blame religion and politics for mankinds ills. As if religion and politics were not made up of people - you're putting the cart before the horse...we have the religion and the politics that we deserve - BOTH sides.
(It's kind of like Hillary going on with her "anti"-government speech. I look at her and think, "but you ARE the government".)
2) The "fall" of man is this - God made man, above all else, free. God made man in His image, as He intended. He gave man a natural law to live by, and man chose to live outside that law - to decide for himself what is right and what is wrong. To be his own god. This is the fall of man, and the meaning of "pride goeth before the fall". MAN chose. God, out of love, simply offers. It is up to us to choose to accept or reject.
3) With due respect to my non-Catholic Christian brothers and sisters, I must stick with 2000 years of sound theology (yeah - I know
All Comments (98)
You will seek Me and you will find Me when you search for Me with all your heart...Jer.29:13
June 9, 2007 8:55 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 9, 2007 20:55
You will seek Me and you will find Me when you search for Me with all your heart...Jer.29:13
June 9, 2007 8:55 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 9, 2007 20:55
You will seek Me and you will find Me when you search for Me with all your heart...Jer.29:13
June 9, 2007 8:55 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 9, 2007 20:55
You will seek Me and you will find Me when you search for Me with all your heart...Jer.29:13
June 9, 2007 8:54 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 9, 2007 20:54
The atomic bomb will not destroy the earth.The
global warming will not destroy the earth. God
created the earth and he will destroy every
thing thats ungodlly on earth, but not the
earth itself. For in the mellineum He will
rule from the throne of David in Jerusalem.
The earth He created will remain forever.This
will happen when the unbeliever has had every chance to recieve Christ as savior and redeemer.
May 17, 2007 9:32 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 17, 2007 09:32
The atomic bomb will not destroy the earth.The
global warming will not destroy the earth. God
created the earth and he will destroy every
thing thats ungodlly on earth, but not the
earth itself. For in the mellineum He will
rule from the throne of David in Jerusalem.
The earth He created will remain forever.This
will happen when the unbeliever has had every chance to recieve Christ as savior and redeemer.
May 17, 2007 9:32 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 17, 2007 09:32
The atomic bomb will not destroy the earth.The
global warming will not destroy the earth. God
created the earth and he will destroy every
thing thats ungodlly on earth, but not the
earth itself. For in the mellineum He will
rule from the throne of David in Jerusalem.
The earth He created will remain forever.This
will happen when the unbeliever has had every chance to recieve Christ as savior and redeemer.
May 17, 2007 9:32 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on May 17, 2007 09:32
I also grew up in the Catholic Church and must say I attended Mass because that was expected of me...at the age of 16 a priest hit me on the head with a Catholic missal so hard I bit my tongue which bled profusely...all because I asked a question during religious instruction that he didn't approve of...I came to despise Catholicism and all religions, for that matter...I still have no use for religion...but once upon a time I knelt down and lashed out at the God I no longer believed in...I ranted and raved and pretty much told Him he would have to explain much if He expected me to believe in Him...my heart was seeking and honest before Him...He honors sincerity in seeking Him and He revealed Himself to me...it's not about religion...it's about relationship...and I honestly believe if Jesus was walking the earth today he would slam the tv preachers and religions just as he did 2,000 yrs ago....I have met the One who bore my sins and He is more real to me than my own reflection...
Come now,and let us reason together, says the Lord. Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson,they shall be like wool.
March 31, 2007 11:31 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 31, 2007 23:31
Fate,
God does not exist, only your insecurities do.
March 27, 2007 7:08 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 27, 2007 19:08
Believer wrote:
---You can hate Christians. You can hate what Christians have done. But I can't see how you can hate the one who said the words above. How can you deny Him? How can you not love Him?---
I have the utmost repect for Jesus and what he taught. I accept much of what he taught. I just wish most christians would do the same.
---He is everything to me. My soul aches that you don't know who he truly is.---
Too much of anything is, as they say, not a good thing. I believe I know who he truly was. A great man who spoke truth to many powers. But ascribing god-like powers to Jesus deminishes the work he did. Consider that he was one of us, a regular Joe. Then his accomplishments really rise above anything that came before or since. But giving him god-like powers and a Godly directed mission that he cannot ignore, I think, gives the impression that what he did was not his own work but directed by God. That Jesus was just along for the ride. I don't believe that. I think, based on the evidence, that Jesus was a great man who thought for himself, putting truth and honesty before religion and the religious heiarchy. Something the church that was created in his name does not condone.
Not believing in a God I find Jesus an amazing guy who today, I think, would go into every church and rip out its gold and jewels and hand them out to the poor. He'd call the Pope a Ceasar-wannabe. He'd look at how we live in segregated communities and how we treat one another and ask us why we do so. He'd wonder how christians could start a war on a country that did nothing to us nor threatened us. I never hear christians ask if Jesus would have invaded Iraq. If Jesus would lower taxes on the rich but maintain them on the middle and lower classes. If Jesus would approve of political cronies with no ability leading governmental institutions. If Jesus would approve of an interracial marriage. I do think Jesus would approve of the American constitution, of its guaranteed freedoms and liberties. I think Jesus would wonder why a christian president would toss the constitution aside and spy on Americans and ask why christians are so afraid of death that they would deny another person's freedom to avoid it. If you think you truly know Jesus, you would know that much of what christianity is today would not be approved by him. But, as you imply, Jesus himself was one awesome dude.
March 26, 2007 9:36 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 26, 2007 09:36
To expand on Jeannie's point and one of Fate's points, when I think of something greater than myself, I think of nature and the universe. I prefer that instead of the idea of a higher intelligence that must be pleased or placated.
March 26, 2007 9:10 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 26, 2007 09:10
Jeannie wrote:
---A challenge to those who don't believe in a higher intelligence than themselves....if you were incorrect would you want to know that?---
Sure! As an atheist I seek the truth. Consider the alternate question you should ask yourself: If God is a delusion would you want to know that?
---The Challenge? Kneel down and ask the creator to reveal Himself to you if indeed He is real...if you seek in sincerity you will find...if you have the courage.---
I've done this. I spent 15 years in Catholic schools, 30 years kneeling in Catholic church. I watched physical abuse (corporal punishments) handed out by high minded nuns and priests. I saw little in the form of forgiveness and a lot of judgementalism. I saw families hounded and intimidated because their "offerings" to the church were too small. And you can guess what happened to me at 12 years old when I openly questioned the existance of God in what I thought was an honest question.
Jeannie, when you look at the world, really look at it, its people, its cultures, its religions, you will see that religion is a commonality in man's nature. We even see it long before Christ or even the Hebrew God came on the scene. My challenge to you is to ask yourself what you would do if you were given convincing evidence God did not exist. Could you handle the news or would you dismiss it out of hand prefering to continue the illusion? I'm not trying to convert you, just get you to understand that much of what you believe has been drilled into you and natural for you to accept. Don't you think its a strange coincidence that Catholics have kids that grow up to be catholics and bussists have kids that grow up to be buddists? Consider that you did not have a choice as to what you believe and you are happily now living in the delusion you were taught to believe. Just consider it, that's my challenge.
As for Cal's answer, he leaves out the concept of WHO will be allowed to live in that new earth. Funny thing, its people of the same religion who wrote the scritpture. How convenient, how self deluding.
March 26, 2007 8:33 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 26, 2007 08:33
Jeannie - are you implying that people who don't "kneel down and ask the creator to reveal himself" are wimps?
If so, how do you know? For instance, is that in the Bible somewhere?
You sound pretty grandiose and sure of yourself, but honestly, I never heard that all anyone needed to do to see the creator was to kneel down and sincerely ask him to reveal himself, and that only a lack of courage would prevent it. To me, this sounds very intimidating and not at all what I associate with a loving God. It seems more like a scare tactic.
By the way, I don't mind being incorrect about just about anything. I'm always willing to change my thinking based on new input.
March 25, 2007 10:10 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 25, 2007 22:10
A challenge to those who don't believe in a higher intelligence than themselves....if you were incorrect would you want to know that?
The Challenge? Kneel down and ask the creator to reveal Himself to you if indeed He is real...if you seek in sincerity you will find...if you have the courage.
March 24, 2007 8:51 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 24, 2007 20:51
Brambleton:
Yea, we know. Well, some of us know I guess. It's not like people have to log-in with a user name and password. I accidentally posted with someone elses name once in a conversation. Of course, my intention wasn't to be a troll.
You are a baptist right? A buddy invited me to a mens retreat last night at a local baptist church. It was the first time I've been in a church like that for a service in about 15 years.
Regards
March 24, 2007 11:59 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 24, 2007 11:59
The last post included my name but was not mine. Some posters idea of a joke.
March 23, 2007 10:41 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 23, 2007 22:41
Brambleton,
Did you do it in the brambles?
A rather prick-ly situation, I imagine.
March 23, 2007 9:46 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 23, 2007 21:46
Guys,
What Mr. Cal probably needs is a weekend on Castro Street in S.F. to loosen him up and get rid of his
stupid opinions on gays. He'd probably immediately head for the Jaguar Bookstore to prime his pump.
March 23, 2007 5:46 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 23, 2007 17:46
I wrote:
"And you expect us to take anything you take seriously?"
Should have been: "And you expect us to take anything you say seriously?"
Sometimes it's hard to type when you're seeing red...
March 23, 2007 5:01 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 23, 2007 17:01
Brambleton wrote:
"I take back everything I've said. I apologize.
"Last night I had a revelation. I had gay sex, tons of it. And it was great. Amazing. I found god during my gay sex. But it wasn't the god of the bible. It was a gay god. And I had sex with him too."
And you expect us to take anything you take seriously?
Your bigotry is showing and it ain't pretty.
March 23, 2007 4:52 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 23, 2007 16:52
"My soul aches that you don't know who he truly is."
Believer, while I respect your good intentions, your personal religious beliefs are not about anyone but yourself. The same goes for anyone's religious beliefs, including my own.
March 23, 2007 4:48 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 23, 2007 16:48
Believer wrote:
"You can hate Christians. You can hate what Christians have done. But I can't see how you can hate the one who said the words above. How can you deny Him? How can you not love Him?"
1. I don't hate Xians and neither does anyone else. Stop playing the victim.
2. Sensible people can hate what Xians have done and also hate what non-Xians have done. They can love what Xians have done and love what non-Xians have done. The fact is that an actual existing god doesn't enter into it.
3. The "one who said the words above" never existed. Once you realize that, a lot falls into place. There's no need to deny or not love someone who never existed.
4, "He is everything to me." Really? Would you lay down your life for him? How about the lives of your immediate family? Early Xians did just that, and well after Jesus supposedly left this Earth. Be honest.
Take your questions and insert the name "Zeus" where you say Jesus or he and you'll find that you are almost an atheist yourself.
March 23, 2007 4:38 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 23, 2007 16:38
I suspect that it's bad form to point out spelling errors, but I loved the freudian ship in "Believer"'s post - crucifiction. It should of course be crucifixion. I think he is probably well served by his imaginary friend, but why does he care whether anyone else believes in him?
March 23, 2007 4:10 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 23, 2007 16:10
I take back everything I've said. I apologize.
Last night I had a revelation. I had gay sex, tons of it. And it was great. Amazing. I found god during my gay sex. But it wasn't the god of the bible. It was a gay god. And I had sex with him too.
March 23, 2007 3:47 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 23, 2007 15:47
"Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
"O righteous Father, although the world has not known You, yet I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me;
and I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known, so that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them."
John 14:24-26
(Jesus praying for His Disciples before his crucifiction)
You can hate Christians. You can hate what Christians have done. But I can't see how you can hate the one who said the words above. How can you deny Him? How can you not love Him?
He is everything to me. My soul aches that you don't know who he truly is.
March 23, 2007 3:37 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 23, 2007 15:37
Every time I stop by and read some of the posts I am amazed at the way the two sides of the issue talk past each other. Cal pretty much sucks vacuum as far as I am concerned, and I have trouble believing anyone takes him seriously. I think the problem is faith itself. I would be able to understand everything if I would just have "faith". I would be able to see green men as well if I only I had sufficient faith in green men. The fact that someone believes something through faith is meaningless to those without the rose-tinted glasses. I suspect the reason so many non-believers continue to post here is that we have trouble "believing" that those of "faith" don't recognize that there is no emperor inside the clothes. We are all in the position of looking at the empty suit and exclaiming "Where's the Emperor." By the way, trotting out Pascal's Wager for the nth time is just lame along with Aquinas' proofs of the existence of god.
March 23, 2007 3:28 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 23, 2007 15:28
Cal Thomas is a darling of the Religious Right. I don't deny his right to chirp away in writing columns and speaking out on this blog, but I don't accept much of what he says. He has proved himself to be a homophobe and gay-basher, so who can trust anything that comes out of his mouth.
Cal, get a life.
March 23, 2007 3:24 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 23, 2007 15:24
OK, all you fundies have now had your say. It is now time for reality. Let's face it, the following are reality:
1) There was no "Fall" in human history: that story like most of Genesis and the rest of the Hebrew Scripture is myth and or fiction.
2) The stories about Jesus in the NT are largely fiction, written forty years or more after his death...if indeed he really lived.
3) The Church as we know it...divided and splintered into thousands of pieces...is based on a settlement that was made possible by Emperor Constantine at the Council of Nicea, at which mostly Eastern bishops participated. At least it got the Christians off his back and he could rest quietly as a non-christian (he was baptized on his death bed).
4) Science trumps most if not all religion.
5) Religion is an addictive agent just like nicotine, alcohol and a host of other goodie drugs. Once you get released from this addiction you can smell the roses and enjoy reality.
Going to Church, like I did for years, was mainly, I now see, for the music, the ceremony, and coffee hour. I was an Episcopalian...and what better place for these than that!
March 23, 2007 3:21 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 23, 2007 15:21
Getting back to Cal Thomas' original column titled, "World Without End, Amen."
Windbag without end...ye gads!
March 23, 2007 3:18 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 23, 2007 15:18
Brambleton,
Mr Mark and Tonio answered your questions quite well. Two points, though.
We are not legally a Christian nation, but the majority of Americans are Christian. The voting statistics you cite against same-sex marriage demonstrate that quite well. Even states outside the bible belt are majority christian.
Finally, your bias and lack of understanding of science is well demonstrated by your fourth point. The evidence for evolution is overwhelming. Evolutionary theory is used every single day by doctors and scientists the world over. Without an understanding of evolution, we couldn't develop effective flu vaccines every year. You can keep throwing out the silly "I'm not an ape" statements (no one said you were, although you are closely related to apes), but your underlying point here is uneducated and wrong.
March 23, 2007 2:50 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 23, 2007 14:50
Brambleton, good reply. I'll answer your points:
1. You're absolutely right that the Christian belief about homosexuality does not inherently equate to discrimination. And yes, many non-Christians also view homosexuality as immoral. The individual has the right to his or her own beliefs about homosexuality. However, such beliefs should dictate only the individual's behavior, not society's behavior or government's laws. Gay marriage poses no intrinsic harm to society or to straight people, so government has no compelling interest in banning it.
3. Again, many non-Christians also oppose embryonic stem-cell research. There are valid moral arguments for opposing it that have nothing to do with any religion's doctrine. The problem, as I see it, is that some (not all) Christians justify their opposition by insisting they know what God wants on the issue. That group justifies its stance on gay marriage with the same claim. Such claims by themselves are not sufficient basis for law.
4. As I mentioned elsewhere, most Christians do not oppose Darwin's hypothesis of natural selection. True, the hypothesis contradicts a literal reading of Genesis, but then most Christians and Christian denominations do not subscribe to Biblical literalism. My question is, why is there not agreement among Christians on how to read the Bible?
5. From my reading, there have been many studies showing the ineffectiveness of abstinence-only sex education. I tend to believe that contraception and abstinence are two ways of taking responsibility, although I also believe that most teenagers are generally not emotionally ready for intimacy. In any case, the individual is welcome to believe that premarital sex is immoral, but promoting that belief should not be the goal of sex education.
6. You're right that most Christians do not read Genesis and 2 Timothy as justifications for patriarchy. Unfortunately, the ones who do often are prominent ones, such as the Promise Keepers and James Dobson in his book "Love for a Lifetime."
March 23, 2007 1:34 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 23, 2007 13:34
RJones,
1) Homosexual discrimination - I'm assuming you are referring to the gay marriage issue. Here are the %'s of voters in each state that voted FOR a ban on same sex marriage in 2006/2007: (AZ) 49%, (CO) 56%, (ID) 63%, (SC) 78%, (SD) 52%, (TN) 81%, (VA) 57%, (WI) 59%. I'm no geography major, but I'm pretty sure AZ, CO, ID, SD, and WI are clearly not part of the "Bible belt". It's obvious from these statistics that homosexual discrimination is NOT a Christian or religious issue. Unless, of course, you are willing to concede that the U.S. is a Christian state. Furthermore, the Bible refers to homosexuality as a sin, and many Christians believe the same way. HOWEVER, that belief does not equate to discrimination.
2) I have no idea what discrimination you refer to against non-believers and those of other faiths. Could you give me an example?
3) Stem cell research. Obviously, I can't speak for everybody, but Christians aren't against stem cell research (which uses adult cells/tissues). I know that's what CNN, Hillary, and all the other left wing rhetoric monkey's have told you, but it's not true. Christians, by and large, are against EMBRYONIC stem cell research. There's a BIG difference.
4) Real science - If you'd like to believe you're a monkey, that's fine. But please show me ANY source where humans have been DEFINITIVELY linked to apes. Don't bother, because you won't find it.
5) I believe what promotes promiscuity are videos to 6th graders about putting condoms on cucumbers. Sexually active children are a problem for both religious and non-religious families. The difference, of course, is that secular society has washed its hand of the problem by claiming that we're hard wired for sex and too weak to control our own impulses.
6) Women should stay at home? I'm sorry, but that's just absurd. I would guesstimate that the number of Christians who follow that logic out of some sort of Biblical adherence are extremely small in numbers.
March 23, 2007 11:55 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 23, 2007 11:55
cecil wrote:
"Mr Mark
"I agree with most of the things you said in your first post, but I'm not as certain as you seem to be that humankind is better now than in earlier times. Yes, there are many examples of compassion, mercy, etc. from both individuals and nations. On the other hand, the amount of human created misery (even in "advanced countries) is stageringly huge."
I think the point I was trying to make (which was obviously lost on Jimmy in his response to my post) was that acts of depravity that happen today are seen for what they are, ie: acts of depravity that lie well outside the norm of human behavior. Compare that to Biblical times when acts of depravity were the norm and accepted as a legitimate way of running a government or, worse, following god's laws.
Men will continue to do evil, but we no longer accept evils that were considered quite normal in the ancient world. My response was to a poster who averred that man had become more depraved since Biblical times. Yes, there is misery in the world, but misery is relative to its times, is it not? Americans living in American squalor are living the life of Riley compared to what passes for wealth in most of the world and what was considered a comfortable life in the ancient world.
What has changed dramatically since ancient times is our perception of human dignity and human rights. We no longer believe some humans are better than others, or that an elite is entitled to a life that most people are not allowed to aspire to. We don't propose that one human life is worth more than another human life, at least in principle if not in practice.
If it was true that mankind had become more depraved since Biblical times, then we should be going in the opposite direction of that which I've outlined above. We should be seeing a version of the Biblical social order on steroids.
I refuse to buy into the hopeless gambit of the religionists that mankind's very nature is evil, and that we can do nothing to improve our condition unless we give over our intelligence, our will, our determination and our better nature to some imaginary god who is going to fix the evil that he created. It's a cop out and, worse, it's defeatist.
I believe the evidence is overwhelming that we have advanced and that our nature has changed for the better...and we've done it without the help of the imaginary gods of the world's socio-political religions that seek to co-opt our birthright of goodness and compassion for their own depraved ends.
March 23, 2007 11:53 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 23, 2007 11:53
DW - Atheists don't have a set "view of life." The only thing atheists are sure to have in common is lack of belief in God.
And the word "smug" was meant to be descriptive. I see signs of it in your posts and it's written all over Cal Thomas' face.
March 23, 2007 10:54 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 23, 2007 10:54
Brambleton,
How about discrimination against homosexuals, non-believers or those of other faiths? Completely unsupportable but for religious reasons. How about opposition to stem cell research? The dangerous push towards conflict in the Middle East war as a sign of the return of Jesus? How about ignoring real science (evolution, global warming) because of the perception that they disprove religious beliefs? The movement among some to withhold the HPV (cancer) vaccine because of the ridiculous fear that it will promote promiscuity? The continued belief that women should stay at home. I don't need to cite scripture because believers can justify anything with the bible.
Not all Christians hold these ideas to be sure. But these are examples of how radical believers want to push us back to the dark ages.
March 23, 2007 9:36 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 23, 2007 09:36
E Favorite
Did not say there is no relevance also on our potential in this life, now did I. Your oblique allusion is obvious. Words such as smug are only meant to ridicule. Therefore, I see your views as more curt and cutting than a person who professes a belief in the God you deny, who realizes they may have a problem now and then with things they go thru in life or things they say, yet have a humility about them to admit to their God and mankind around them that they are human, they make mistakes and they strive to do better. If I were an outside observer, I would choose their way of life over an atheists view anyday.
March 23, 2007 9:26 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 23, 2007 09:26
DW - the only thing there "isn't" in atheism is a God. Individual atheists can have hope or not and certainly many atheists and other non-christians, can, as you say "...see the reality that there is no other creature like mankind, how wonderfully we were made, and the potential we possess."
Many focus on expressing human potential, here on earth, instead of feeling smug about knowing the right words to say to get into heaven.
March 23, 2007 8:51 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 23, 2007 08:51
This was stated earlier in this thread:
>>In other words, Allmighty God is so insecure that unless you believe in him and all of the doctrines, he is going to punish you.
Not true. All will have a chance to know God. Punishment, if you will, will be man's decision solely. There is no human in hell or heaven right now. The bible, though, speaks of 3 resurrections, a renewal of the earth (as Cal Thomas stated) and no more death.
>> As the creator of the cosmos, he set it up that way.
He made man a free moral agent for a purpose.
>>How can anyone really believe this nonsense?
Quite frankly, very easily. There is no hope in atheism. Consider that Christians just put more thought and value into human excellence and potential, and see the reality that there is no other creature like mankind, how wonderfully we were made, and the potential we possess. Any person, Christian or atheist, that doesnt think this...put the blame on their thought process, dont put it on true Christian ethics.
March 23, 2007 7:29 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 23, 2007 07:29
Look at that smug, self-satisfied face of Cal Thomas. He is the ultimate Pharisee.
March 23, 2007 6:41 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 23, 2007 06:41
Those who believe in an end of the world as the Bible indicates are people who cannot accept reality and search for fantasy.
It should worry all of us that fantasists and nutcases are so prevalent among our fellow citizens.
March 23, 2007 6:40 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 23, 2007 06:40
I admit that I am strongly motivated to point out the inconsistencies and irrationalities of fundamentalist religions of all sorts because I believe that they are bad for the world.
Fundamentalists be they Christian, Jewish, or Muslim advocate disastrous social and political policies on the basis of "Truths" based on "Holy" texts of doubtful provenance, texts which in the Jewish and Christian case I know quite well. If people like Brambleton find it offensive and think I am mocking them, that is too bad. However respect has to be earned on the basis of something other than antiquity or truth claims based on something undefinable they call "faith".
March 23, 2007 12:58 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 23, 2007 00:58
Mr Mark
I agree with most of the things you said in your first post, but I'm not as certain as you seem to be that humankind is better now than in earlier times. Yes, there are many examples of compassion, mercy, etc. from both individuals and nations. On the other hand, the amount of human created misery (even in "advanced countries) is stageringly huge.
I am not particularly concerned about what Cal or Kenny believe because at this time they don't have much power to persecute me or discriminate against me (but they may be getting there and some fundamental Christians (not Kenny or Cal) certainly would if they could).
What really bothers me is the vastly overworked assertion, "I know". The truth, I think, is that most of us don't KNOW nearly as much as we think we know and claim to know.
Now, concerning the end of the world, I BELIEVE Cal Thomas is dead wrong. I agree with other posters who believe it will end with a man made disaster or from natural causes (meteor, sun expansion, moon shift...) But I have been careful to avoid the "I know" assertion.
March 23, 2007 12:18 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 23, 2007 00:18
Brambleton: Thanks for the response.
As a ghost who casually follows these boards, it seems like some of the "drivel" you described might be be getting under your skin? If you are a Christian, as you claim to be (I don't have reason to doubt you) I would encourage you not to fall into the the never ending back and forth. Based on their own belief system and the command to "love their enemies", Christians are to be held to a higher standard in conversation, even in an anonymous debate setting such as this. Would you agree?
I've learned that despite the colorful names we hide behind, there are real people on the other side of these postings. Some of them have good reason to trash Christians and their belief system with raw emotion. The pain is real, the offense to them is genuine, I guarantee it!
Anyways, I don't specifically argue for or against any belief system, not on these boards anyways. Maybe someday if I stick around. Doesn't make me any better than anyone else. I am more interested in reading thoughtful (or comical) opinions from all sides and doing my part on occasion to keep the marketplace of ideas open to all points of view. I'd say that despite the attempts of some on the right or left, this is a forum open for all types of opinion. Sure a troll may thrash a thoughtful commentary with nonsence. That doesn't mean the nonsence has to be answered or even read. We have to give people, even those with nothing to add but hatred freedom of speech, but we don't have to listen.
Regards
March 22, 2007 11:49 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 22, 2007 23:49
"Oh, McChurch, you've done it again!"
March 22, 2007 11:08 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 22, 2007 23:08
Ghost,
I don't get the opportunity to engage in religious debate with secularists very often. I figured that an "On Faith" forum would be as good a place as any. There have been some good discussions here and there, and I've picked up some different points of view that I probably had not thought about before.
Sadly, however, you'll find mostly drivel in a lot of these threads. There are a number of posters whose only contribution to any question posed by the panel is to demean, mock, and ridicule a particular religion. And then they turn around and complain about Christians being mean. Shocking. Perhaps they're intellectually challenged and should stick with watching "Are you smarter than a 5th grader".
RJones,
Could you please list the "archaic superstitions" that would return us to the dark ages? If you are referring to Christianity, reference to specific passages in the Bible will suffice. Thanks!
March 22, 2007 10:47 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 22, 2007 22:47
"To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary; to one without faith,no explanation is possible." - Aquinas
March 22, 2007 10:24 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 22, 2007 22:24
Tonio said: "an individual is entitled to refuse to be defined by what others say about him or her".
That is an excellent quote! Probably the best one I've read on these boards.
Brambleton: You asked BAAL about his motivations, I was wondering, why do you post frequently on these boards?
Regards to you both.
March 22, 2007 9:41 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 22, 2007 21:41
Believer: "For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Professing to be wise, they became fools."
Paul should be careful who he calls fools.
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. -- Mark 5:22 (KJV)
March 22, 2007 8:59 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 22, 2007 20:59
Twit
March 22, 2007 8:47 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 22, 2007 20:47
Jimmy,
The real world. What about you?
Or aren't you aware that slavery is illegal everywhere in the world? That billions of women are free to have jobs, to vote, to make something of their lives? That child labor is also illegal in most of the world? That freedom of information and travel means that I can have friends anywhere in the world?
There are certainly places where very bad things are happening every day. But this is nothing compared to 2000 years ago. Despite those whose adherence to archaic superstitions would return us to the dark ages, humanity has grown. There's still a long way to go, but to close your eyes to the reality of how far we come is to dishonor those who've sacrificed to get us here.
Or are you just bent out of shape because of the occasional breast on television?
March 22, 2007 8:46 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 22, 2007 20:46
Jimmy,
The real world. What about you?
Or aren't you aware that slavery is illegal everywhere in the world? That billions of women are free to have jobs, to vote, to make something of their lives? That child labor is also illegal in most of the world? That freedom of information and travel means that I can have friends anywhere in the world?
There are certainly places where very bad things are happening every day. But this is nothing compared to 2000 years ago. Despite those whose adherence to archaic superstitions would return us to the dark ages, humanity has grown. There's still a long way to go, but to close your eyes to the reality of how far we come is to dishonor those who've sacrificed to get us here.
Or are you just bent out of shape because of the occasional breast on television?
March 22, 2007 8:45 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 22, 2007 20:45
Jimmy
You need to read and understand the atrocities of the religious wars in europe. One reason people of europe aren't very religious is because they have suffered at the hands of the god fearing leaders. All the wars today have a religious theme to them. Most everything bad has happened because of religion one way or the other. I think it's because religious people don't respect this life. Since they will live at the right hand of god for ever and ever and have all the love and joy and peace and be happy ever after. Maybe if you had more respect for this life we wouldn't have so many wars.
March 22, 2007 5:50 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 22, 2007 17:50
Believer wrote:
"Perfect love was shown to us when God sent His own Son to die for us so that by merely accepting this love, we may have eternal life in God's presence."
I've never understood this. God torments his Son so that people can enter God's paradise.
Why not just let them in?
March 22, 2007 5:47 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 22, 2007 17:47
Oh no! Someone didn't just bring up The Sucker's Bet...er...I mean Pascal's Wager Again, did they?
Some of the standard objections are summarized here:
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pascal-wager/#5
March 22, 2007 5:46 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 22, 2007 17:46
RJONES, What world are you living in?
March 22, 2007 5:24 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 22, 2007 17:24
Pacal's wager is a crock. What if Islam is correct? Aren't you really ticking off your god by being a Christian? What you lose by making this wager is your time, your money, your efforts, and you live your entire life believing a lie. I prefer the truth of reality.
Brambleton, Adam and Eve didn't exist, so the whole "fall" thing doesn't make any sense however you look at it.
Jimmy, what a pessimistic, cynical view. In general, people are undoubtedly more humane, more considerate towards others, than people were 2000 years ago. That you don't see that says lots about you and your philosophy.
March 22, 2007 5:09 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 22, 2007 17:09
Scott-
So your Christian God is OK with someone reducing "His" offer of salvation to a crapshoot? Is it all a hedge to save your a$$?
March 22, 2007 4:55 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 22, 2007 16:55
Brambleton
You are probably correct that there are more productive ways I could be spending time.
Fundamentalist religions will live on no matter how irrational, and their adherents will continue to attack anyone else who is not of their sect.
March 22, 2007 4:43 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 22, 2007 16:43
Pascal's wager. The Christian is "betting" that there is an afterlife, a new earth, and that it is gained through Jesus. If indeed he is correct, then he gains everything. If he is wrong, as many writing to this blog believe, then the Christian loses nothing.
The non-believer is "betting" that there is no afterlife and no new earth. If he is right, he neither gains nor loses anything; but if he is wrong, he loses big time.
I like the first bet better.
March 22, 2007 4:30 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 22, 2007 16:30
Mr. Mark Wrote
"Do daughters normally get pregnant by their fathers (like Lot's daughters) in our depraved times?" YES. "Do we condone slavery and the owning of people as property, to be used, abused, sexually assaulted and killed on a whim as they did in Biblical times?" YES "Do we sanction slavery?" YES. "Do today's leaders have multiple wives and concubines as did the great moral leaders of the Bible?" YES. "Do we crucify thousands of political dissidents as did the Romans?" YES. "Do we utterly slaughter people on a genocidal level and consider it all in a day's work for the Lord?" YES."The god of Israel demanded that Israel kill all of the men and children of their enemies and force the women into slavery. What equivalent is there to such god-sanctioned crimes in our "more-depraved times?" Oh let me see, how about beheading innocents for Allah, or blowing up little children for Allah. When you say "WE" you are including the entire world, not just America, so the answer is YES. NEXT QUESTION?
March 22, 2007 4:23 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on March 22, 2007 16:23
A few of things:
1) It's silly to say Cal and I blame man, and then turn around and blame religion and politics for mankinds ills. As if religion and politics were not made up of people - you're putting the cart before the horse...we have the religion and the politics that we deserve - BOTH sides.
(It's kind of like Hillary going on with her "anti"-government speech. I look at her and think, "but you ARE the government".)
2) The "fall" of man is this - God made man, above all else, free. God made man in His image, as He intended. He gave man a natural law to live by, and man chose to live outside that law - to decide for himself what is right and what is wrong. To be his own god. This is the fall of man, and the meaning of "pride goeth before the fall". MAN chose. God, out of love, simply offers. It is up to us to choose to accept or reject.
3) With due respect to my non-Catholic Christian brothers and sisters, I must stick with 2000 years of sound theology (yeah - I know