All Comments (37)

Zaid,
Well, it's probably because he's American and human. I don't see the hypocracy there, just some honesty followed by lots of painful bile. (not your post but others) I would expect a Brit to pray for his Government and not mine. If they did pray for all then great. It could also be that he is praying for what God put on his heart.

Expecting perfection from the perfectly imperfect is an exercise in frustration kinda like getting my daughter to clean her room... lol

I really liked this article, until I reached the part where Mr. Thomas begins to pray for "leaders - democrats and republicans -" and the war etc...

I see a certain hypocracy in this. Why pray for your country and not others? Jesus wasn't american. Let's pray for world peace instead.

PJ - sure Jesus would "get bombed." Jesus turned water into wine did he not? Why? The wino's night mare is to have the ability to turn water into wine and not be able to get a free glass of water.

Sorry, couldn't resist. Good nite.

Who would Jesus bomb?
This is the best comment or question on the topic of religion I have seen recently. The obvious answer is "no one."
Similarly, using any religion as a rationale for killing is just as ridiculous.

Change your heart and change your world.

ANONMOUS - Devil has been found lurking about in God's book. One may not be too careful about which supernatural being one is being encourged to pray to. That same book admonishes us to "Eat our bread by the sweat of our brows" telling even Bubba that praying for "things" must be done to Devil if there is any hope of prayers being answered.

I'm trying to SAVE BRAMBLETON, and obvious fervent parying type. Surely BRAMBLETON doesn't want what Devil has and God will not freebee by God's own words. That couldn't be Devil warning us to follow him else we will have to work for what we get? I mean, is the whole Bibl the word of Devil or just the part after that admonishment about the need to work if one is to eat.

BRAMBLETON,

I think BGONE is trying to get a rise out of you. He brings "Devil" into everything.

"God" and "Devil" go together like "heaven" and "hell". Polar opposites, but 2 sides of the same.

The middle ground is where I want to be. I think we've had enough of polarization.

Yes Prayer is a conversation with God. If done with sincerity and faith, it could result in the Holy Spirit providing useful direction.

I have often wondered about the total message in Matthew 6. Was Jesus advising us of the fallacy of orgnized religion? Jesus spoke of other things too, such as giving in private, but today in Church records are kept of the amount given and some curches are even encouraging seniors on pension to allow withdrawals from their bank accounts on a regular basis. Is this what Jesus meant?

We have confused the statement about two or three being gathered together to attempt to convince Christians that it is group prayer that will carry the day, yet this is contrary to the instruction to pray in private in one's closet. The emphasis should really be not on the number gathered, but on commitment to gathering totally in Christ's name.

The problem is not with prayers, it is with the way we pray, how we pray, and what we pray for, and most important the sincerity of our prayers.

Could it be that all the sillinest accepted in religions and faith is because humans subconsciously do not want to be contrained by what should be a more accurate concept that the Almighty/Creator/Sustainer/It is in fact actively managing the universe? But the Almighty/It must have a different concept for humans than what humans can grasp.

What if the Devil as we know him/it is a continuing controlling organization that made all the stuff up? It appears it can be traced all the way back to ancient Egypt. And the world/earth is now spinning out of the organization's control? Or is the Almighty the 'Ultimate Decider' but has a total different perspective and concept from us which we can't conceive of? Like a universe without a beginning and without an end.

With Bushco making up reality here in our own time it shouldn't give anyone a warm feeling about what has been put forth in the past as reality. If Bubba ever catches on to that .....

Maybe prayers should be for wisdom - but then, Soloman tried that!

BRAMBLETON:

I'm fair. The choice is yours. Which way do you want it?

a) The Bible is a hoax
b) The Bible is word of Devil

Waiting to hear your choice.

I'll give this to BGONE, he's good for a few laughs. He claims the Bible is a hoax, which he has every right to do, THEN he supports his position on prayer with SCRIPTURE! Comical!

McChurch, the drive-through, fast-food temple of the Christian Right, has trivialized grace by reducing it to an objective choice.

Once you enter that slippery slope, the only logical extension is to congratulate yourself for your wisdom. God moves to a back seat.

What is left for which to pray except more goodies for the faithful and a sick-free life? God becomes that Great Gargoyle in the Sky, ready to rain down blessings when rubbed in public.

Predestination is about seeing the beauty and holiness of God and making the only choice possible. God reveals His glory; mankind chooses.

The god of the Christian Right is not too bright, to say the least, if it can be deluded into thinking that public displays of prayer (only those closed in Jesus' name, of course) have anything to do with faith. Or how about the notion that if we outlaw abortion and push it into the back alleys, this god will think we are a righteous nation?

Or how about a god who is so wishy-washy that it has appointed Pat Robertson and Co. to tear down the Dome of the Rock, rebuild the Temple and force the return of Jesus.

At the moment, and sadly it be, the Republican Party platform has more power in McChurch than does God. The God of Creation has lost His sovereign power. Prayers, then, are nothing but a means of appeasing the god.

Stan Moody, Christian Policy Institute, author of McChurched: 300 Million Served and Still Hungry.

With respect to pre-destination and "prophets":

As per Edward Schillebeeckx, contemporary theologian and author, pre-destination, prophets and prophecies are not possible for even God does not know the Future i.e. Future is a subset of the gift of Free Will.

In his book, Church: The Human Story of God, Schillebeeckx notes, "Therefore the historical future is not known even to God; otherwise we and our history would be merely a puppet show in which God holds the strings. For
God, too, history is an adventure, an open history for and of men and women."

St. Paul's prophecy about the imminent Second Coming fortunately for us did not materialize but it did convert a lot of Gentiles and indeed opened their purse strings and still does with significantly stupid ideas like pre-destination and rapture.

JudeoChristianity shoots itself in the foot in the most...um... fundamental ways. The 'free-will' asertion is a perfect case in point.

Our ONLY source of information re. divine matters and characters is the bible. Since the whole of the credibility claimed for 'biblical truths' depend on the infallibility of the 'prophets', then the concept of 'free-will'(the ability of anyone exercising a NON-PREDETERMINED choice) is a nonsense.

eg. Did Mary have the free-will option of terminating her pregnancy? If she did then the prophecy predicting the 'virgin birth' would've been no more than a 50-50 proposition. The law of averages does NOT qualify as prophecy (otherwise known as 'The Word Of God'.)

And needless to say, Christianity could never have happened, since it's only claim to fame are those 'prophecies' about his arrival.

One the other hand, if Mary DIDN'T have the free will which allowed an abortion, then obviously all things are pre-determined by god, and god must take responsibility for 'sin', since Adam and the Missus had no dietry options at all. Of course, if god's the owner of 'sin' then none of us has any need of god - least of all 'salvation' via his son.

The only possible conclusion is that 'free-will' and 'prophecy' are mutually exclusive. It's not even possibly an each-way bet, and consequently one must reject the whole of the heavenly hanky-panky to that Disneyland in the sky.

At the expense, then, of consigning the devil to the realms of wanker's fantasies, we must send god off to live with his sole surviving 'creation' as well.

After all, Ol' Nick had no free-will about being born either. Did he??

I am always interested in what theists have to say, but am tired of the same formalized religion responses from people such as DW. As an atheist, I do not subscribe to a supreme being. You do? That's fine with me. I have no hidden agenda, even though you - who, obviously knows everything - ascribe one to me. I have found over the years that I do not require an instant answer to every question or hope that I may have. I realize that we (humans) just don't know why many things happen, or how "IT" all started. I accept the fact that sometimes the knowledge is not there - and may never be - and go on about my business. Why do you feel it necessary to attack atheists? Are you on such uncertain ground that you must seek scapegoats? However, you did provide me with a huge belly laugh when you equated homosexuality with atheism. Where do you get your material? You're a hoot! It's just so easy to dismiss people like you and your arrogant, vicious thoughts. Actually, how do you reconcile a god and his loving and beloved son, whom you obviously adore, and who also created gay people, with your rantings? And didn't Jesus tell you that god loves ALL his creations? If he can, I would think you can. Further, you say that atheists think the bible is a "hoax." Not this one. I believe it is a book like many others with some really great stories, a few terrific moral propositions, and some seriously bad writing. But it's not a hoax - it's a REAL book written by REAL people. But as for accepting all it says as the basis for living my life, not a chance, kiddo! The point here is tolerance - something I have found few theists/deists embrace.

OK Cal, so who has trivialized prayer? I would argue that it is the people who want to foist public prayer on everybody else. That is why we have prayers at athletic events, political events, prayers all sorts of places, even prayers in punblic schools if the religious right had their way. Nothing trivializes prayer more than those kinds of public displays. Lots of people, most likely including the majority of your devoted readership and your political allies, would be absolutely scandalized if we were to decide to stop doing this as a matter of good manners, if nothing else.

JIM, DW - faith is the primary ingredient in the con. Con is short for confidence. You express confidence. I feel your pain but the hoax is busted. There is nothing to stop you from faith but you do need a new source of absolute truths.

Doesn't something strike you as a little wierd? How come absolute truths require faith to be believed? There's some things we just don't know? Now you know one thing that before was just not known. The Bible is a proved hoax and the proof goes beyond a reasonable shadow of a doubt.

Jim, some folks find great spiritual value in what Dr Phil has to say. I don't with Dr Phil and a female son of God either one. Keep praying. The Devil could show up at my door any minute now and I could feel the love of Jesus all over my body but don't count on it. I'm doing just fine without the blood money of the crucifixion. Besides, the cost of a ticket to hell has inflated to out of reach there's such a clamor to get in. Is that bullbe about to burst?

Atheists show their very thin skin when proclaiming the bible/God as a hoax. All of it threatens them. Those who believe in a Creator (knowing they, who believe, too, on a smaller scale can create and design things)understand this and have an answer for their existence. Most, too, realize their existence is for a purpose beyond this life. The bible is clear that there wont be multitudes plucking harps in heaven, but rather a time to come when all will be changed for the better on this earth at Jesus Christs return. The atheist does not see life this way. This is satans deception at work. The adversary relishes in the atheist view, and also views such as same-sex relationships. Consider, if the whole world were to be converted to same-sex unions, relationships..whatever you wish to call it, then it is conceivable that the adversary to mankind could possibly get his ultimate wish..for mankind to become extinct. The atheist also attempts to explain the twists and turns of a book they do not know, and blame God, instead of man for all the evils, discrepancies & hipocracies around us. Just as an intelligent human being can, as best as he/she is able, map out a definitive purpose for their own physical life, so too is the Creator of the universe, of which He will offer to all of mankind in due time.

BGONE........God gave man free will.You have the choice to beleive or not to beleive. Who are you trying to convince that GOD dosen't exist,we that beleive or yourself.I pray that one day you find the love of Christ.
One day...All knees will bow and all tongues will confess "Jesus is Lord".

BRAMBLETON - God drops out after Eden and Devil takes over. Lucifer rallied the bad angles to himself. He was beautiful and thought he should be God. It is Lucifer that DEMANDS to be worshiped, honored, adored, glorified and receive sacrifices from people.

Of course the whole Bible is a hoax. By the very nature of hoaxes there's always inconsistences, do here and don't do there for the same things.

Devil is fictional but God is real. Devil offers free bread and God demands that we sweat for our bread according to the sacred scriptures. Those are "identifiers" and not actual and factual.

Hoaxes turn desire into reality but only in the mind. Without Devil there is no REASON to pray some prayers, the ones that plead for help to keep Devil from getting us. Then there is the notion of sweatfree bread.

The challenge is to find a prayer that is NOT for something the individual praying wants, free or at minimum cost. The con man changes the subject. If you challenge prayers for bread then he mentions the Devil. If you challenge the Devil then he mentions free bread. That's known as residing in round room, can't be cornered. Really top drawer political, no?

Considering the mischief and mayhem that seems to follow god wherever he goes, god and I have a general understanding; I don't ask him for anything, I'm one less thing on his very full plate, and therefore, he doesn't bother me at all. So far, it seems to have worked quite well.

BILL C.:

Interesting website!

CONCERNED:

You start to sound like a broken records!

A HERMIT:

A pleasure, as alsways!

Bgone,

If the Bible was composed strictly of Genesis 3:19 then I would concede your point. However, it turns out the Bible also contains scripture from I Timothy 2:1-6, which clearly informs us that the Lord instructs us to pray not only for our own needs, but to reach out and pray for others as well . . .

"I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time."

Those with "problems" and are trying to solve them by reading the sacred scriptures, all kinds need to stop and think a minute. You must first discover the nebol bridge in your mind. It allows you to visualize more life after this life. That visualization is ALWAYS with the next life, no matter what variety it might be, ONLY as a place that is made of matter just like this world. It is impossible to visualize anything without a body.

Once that step is taken then it's as simple as noticing the demon on the bridge PREVENTING you from getting to that next world. If you need further help simply notice that it's all imaginary and then ask yourself a simple question. Would the demon be there without someone telling you it was there? Last step. Why did someone say there was a demon on people's nebol bridges? If you can't answer that question then you're lost.

OASTAD - all the problems David and all else had and the Moses imitators still have can readily be explained as "worshiping the worng God" better know as Devil. Prayers to God are a violation of God's command while prayers to Devil "change people who change things" ala J RHINEHART. I agree J.

You've reviewed http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul I hope. Sale of soul to Devil brings the big bucks to those who TRICK the multitudes into paying them for a ticket to hell. Does this fit the Iraq situation? Does it fit the CHAOS of hell in the middle east as well?

Christians are not the only ones demanding to be let into the kingdom of the being Moses made the deal with, the supernatural being that live in "the fire that burns but does not consume" the variety of fire found only in hell - unless heaven is on fire too.

Thank you for sharing Jesus' words on the topic. When reading Matthew 5 and 6 for the first time, I was first saved - and I sure did need saving. I would agree with you that the Lord's prayer was intended for the disciples, but how do come to the conclusion that it was not also meant for us? Would you need to conclude that the rest of the context was meant solely for the disciples as well? I've been wrestling with the issue of the Lord's prayer for some time. Is it vain repetition to pray it? I think my problem is because I am making the same mistake David did when he first tried to bring the Arc back. He did not ask God the manner by which the Arc should be transported - instead he asked everyone else.

Wisdom from a refrigerator magnet:

"Prayer doesn't change Things.
Prayer changes People.
People change Things."

A Hermit-

I wish the Congressional Chaplin had prayed that prayer before they voted on the "Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002". It just may have given those knuckleheads pause. It might have made them THINK.

BRAMBLETON - Review Genesis 3:19 God anounceded to Adam and Eve that prayers would not be heard by HIM. Otherwise they could have PRAYED their way out of the apple eating sin. God says do it yourself and leave ME out of it. That's why ministers can only miracliously cure head aches and never restore amputated limbs.

God doesn't need people to tell HIM how great and glorious HE is. God already knows that. Those who spend their energy singing the praises of the Lord God are NOT earning their daily bread by so doing as God clearly ordered. They are allowing the organizers of the praising event to avoid earning their bread by the sweat of their brows. That's a sinful act. It's aiding obvious sinners that do not follow God's command to earn their bread by the sweat and not by praying to Him for free bread. You're not one of them are you?

I failed to mention that bread gained through prayer is tax exempt as well as tax deductible to the gifters. And their places of sinning against God's command, churches, temples, synagogues and mosques are tax exempt dragging the government into the sinfull praying for free bread from God events.

"It's sho gonna be rough on them ministers when God gets His hands on them" is what Bubba said. Bubba is a genious.

IMHO, God started the Big Bang. He/She also granted the gifts of Free Will and Future to all the thinking beings in the Universe. This being the case, God is not able to alter life and requests/prayers will not be answered. Statistically, your request might come true but it is simply the result of the variabiliy/randomness of Nature.

So put down your rosaries and prayer beads and stop worshiping cows and bowing to Mecca six times a day. Instead work hard at your job, take care of aging parents, volunteer at a soup kitchen, donate to charities and the poor and continue to follow the Commandments of your religion or any good rules of living as gracious and good human beings. And lets all hope there indeed is a place called Heaven!!!

A Hermit,

I sincerely doubt Mr. Thomas' prayers are anything like the excerpt you posted from Mark Twain. Negative prayers and judgment prayed down on people are not in harmony with the Spirit of the Lord. God is continually extending mercy and help. Praying for the death or destruction of someone or something is an ignorant prayer. They are truly crimes against the heart of Christ. He came to save, not to destroy and kill.

Norrie,

God's ways are mysterious and unknown to us all. God does not always answer our prayers in the way we demand. Sometimes we find out later that God answered our prayers in His own time, in His own way, which inevitably turns out better than what we had asked for.

Perhaps Mr. Thomas is praying for the safety of our troops and that the terrorists/criminals will be brought to justice. I pray for those things as well and that we "win" the war in such a way that peace and democracy spreads throughout the country.

A Hermit,

A great post. Thank you!

http://www.whydoesgodhateamputees.com/

Perhaps Cal's war prayers are like the one in Mark Twain's story:

http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/making/warprayer.html

"O Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth to battle -- be Thou near them! With them -- in spirit -- we also go forth from the sweet peace of our beloved firesides to smite the foe. O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it -- for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts.

Amen.

Cal,

I'm not surprised to learn that you "...pray several times a day for the war..."

What is your prayer? That the United States will win? Or Mr. Maliki?

You might want to recall that at the battle of the Horns of Hattin, when the Knights Templar were encircled by Saladin's forces, they clustered around the True Cross, prayed, and expected to be delivered momentarily from their impending doom. They weren't.

This battle effectively marked the end of the Templars in the Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem.

Is there a message here for those who pray for war or its winning?

The Lord's prayer originated at a place today known as El Amarna. At the time it was a wilderness where the person on whom the the figure Moses is based had led 12 tribes of foreigners to build her tabernacle to her heavenly father the sun.

Egyptians had been praying to their God, Pharaoh, for over 1,000 years at the time and already knew what to say to get their "daily bread." It was the foreigners that needed to be told. The original lord's prayer is there in hieroglyphics for anyone who can read to read.

Egyptians paid their toll to get past the demon on the nebol bridge by work. That work included sacrificing their lives in Pharaoh's name. The ones that did that were martyrs and guaranteed entry into Pharaoh's NEXT kingdom in the next life. Same thing for the 19, 9-11-2001, different version of the same God.

Foreigners were shut out of Pharaoh's next kingdom altogether. The Moses figure, coregent Amenophis IV has errantly been credited with allowing foreigners into Pharaoh's heaven. The first step for a foreigner to become an equivalent Egyptian was baptism, a washing away of their sin of origin. That sin was not being born an Egyptian. Baptism as now believed comes from a misreading of the Amarna letters and other writings on pieces of stones carelessy left in tact by Constantine's Legions charged with destroying the original materials used as the basis in fact for the Bible.

A much better version of this story is at http://www.hoax-buster.org proving beyond a reasonable shadow of a doubt the Bible is a hoax. Morality that comes form hoaxes has too much in common with the morality of the Nazi taken form another proved hoax, "The Protocols of International Zionism."

When you think you are talking to god... that's 'prayer'.

When you think god is answering you... that's 'schizophrenia'.

Cal makes some interesting points on Jesus's view of praying hypocrites and religious showmen. That makes it all the more odd that he worked so closely with one of today's all-time frauds in Jerry Falwell. Turning God's word into a vast money making scheme seems pretty low to me. Traders in the temple indeed.