All Comments (175)

You are a pretty critical bunch:
- Cal Thomas flayed for stuff he should have said.
- Criticism of people who use "America" as short hand for the United States of America.
- Something about how Mose's burning bush was really the devil.
- Off-topic stuff about evolution.

There was only one guy who talked in detail about the U.S. Constitution.

I would have thought that you citizens of the United States of America would have more to say about your Constitution in response to Mr. Thomas.

Well, at least you have that one guy to explain it for you.

NF:

Your statement about Israel truning from God is an expression of great ignorance of the history of Judah.

The first ever master race on earth were the Egyptians. The firs people to receive a visit from a / any master race were Jews. That happened about 5,000 years ago.

The Egyptians took all they had, occupied their country and turned them into slaves. That lasted, with a few kiccups until the Persian invasion about 2,600 years ago. Thus the Egyptians enslaved them for about 2,400 years.

Then came the Greeks of Alexander the great. That's about 2,300 years ago. Not to worry.

The Romans conquered the Greeks and took over just in time for Jesus. They settled the Jewish problem by declaring being a Jew an offence punishable by death. The Romans had many ways to make that, death happen.

The surviving Jews scattered to the 4 winds with a substantial number ending up in Europe where they are now the last goup of people to receive the attention of a master race, Arians led by a part Jew named Adolph Hitler.

Now with all that can you please tell me that God had anything to do with their troubles? And of course, just how much help has God given his chosen people? In other words, who turned away from whom?

Maybe you can understand what has happened but only if you know a little history. Try interpretation 1501 of the Bible. It will clear the whole mess up for you. http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul

After you've given that some thought maybe you can answer the question. Looks to me like the Jews have been trying to get away from the Devil for about 5,000 years now. God is everywhere but the Devil goes everywhere and has a great following.

I wonder what the world would be like if every fulminating zealot--whether Christian, Jew, Muslim, or Dogmatic Atheist--assimilated the life experience and humility of Chaim of Zans [translated by Martin Buber]:

"In my youth, when I was fired with the love of God, I thought I would convert the whole world to God. But soon, I discovered that it would be quite enough to convert the people who lived in my town, and I tried for a long time--but did not succeed. Then I realized that my program was still much too ambitious, and I concentrated on the persons in my household. But I could not convert them either. Finally, it dawned on me: I must work upon myself, so that I may give true service to God. But I did not accomplish even this." [in: The Way of the Jewish Mystics, ed. by Perle Besserman].

Pam: You are right...anytime 2 or more people live in proximity someone needs to be in charge and be a leader. Norms, limits and boundaries are soon defined, then handed down by word of mouth and story telling. Eventually someone creates cave painting, then written communications on Papyrus, then printing presses, then computers. All religions have the same set of basic concepts as the 10 Generalities credited to Moses. Its just natural progression as each generation built upon the work of the prior. Animals have heirarchies of leadership and patterns of behavior, so do humans. Moses and religion are not the source, the "commandments" are naturally occuring responses to living in group settings. With the rule of law, police, courts and jails we have far surpassed the need for these quaint sets of behavioral rules. But centuries of practice have made people assume these deities must be real, so great temples, cathedrals, mosques and etc are raised to the whatever is the prevailing local deity, armies march to protect turf and vanquish differing belief systems, genocides and holocaust follow....the next one will be a doozy.

Truth (misnomer) writes:
"Why aren't we a Christian nation? Moses was given the 10 Commandments from God to govern nations. That is the foundation of all of our laws."

I am so tired of hearing this BS. Where are our laws saying that we must honor our fathers and mothers? How about laws prohibiting the making of images? Laws saying we musn't misuse the name of God? Laws against coveting our neighbor's wife, or his house? (OK for me to covet my neighbor's *husband*, I guess.) Laws saying we have to remember the Sabbath and keep it holy? Laws against having any other god than God?

Yes, we do have laws against killing and stealing and bearing false witness, but *any* society, however secular, would come up with these (among many others) just to have a functioning society, rather than one that operated in chaos. Stone tablets have nothing to do with it.

Tonius wrote:
"God is not neutral on freedom. America is the most free country and because of it has been blessed with the most of everything."

No, he's not - he specifically mentions in the ten commandments that you should let your "male and female slaves" rest on the Sabbath.

The USA currently has "the most of everything" because it's a large, temperate-zone country whose many resources were essentially unexploited until Northern Europeans settled here some 300 years ago. Give us another hundred years or so of population growth and resource rape and we'll be just like everywhere else.

CARLOS tells us:
It is interesting that two of those who have responded to this "extremist" journalist have posted only extremely negative comments. Their only opinion on the question or Cal's response is to call names.

Ann O. replies: I agree, Carlos. Why are there so-many atheists here in the first place? The chief interest of many of them seems to be other people's beliefs, not the reasons for their own non-belief. The agnostics don't behave like that.

Hmmm.

Ann O.

This whole conversation has been rather ridiculous. Yes, there were a few mistakes. But it boils down to this. There are three parties at work in this topic: the political, the “church,” and the boiled down truth of what all those, as you referred to them, “bible-thumpers,” claim to believe in.
To begin with, those with political agendas know that they can get a leg up by joining up with Christianity and with those good American church-goers. This political agenda is not part of the bible. It should be kept out of the “church”. Unfortunately, the “church” that exists in America is just as happy to be considered a critical part of politics. They are the ones who claim America is a Christian nation.
But the third party I referred to is seldom mentioned in these debates. People have been accosted by the “church.” That is all they think that Christianity is. Yes, many of the “Christians” out there are blind. I was not raised Christian and I was appalled as a child by people who would say, “There’s no explanation, it just IS.” Never answering the question why because they never asked it themselves. You are right, the “church” teaches people to be blind. But I have to tell you that they are not telling people the truth. Since I became born again, I have always asked why and I have never not gotten an answer. Not from the “church” because they seldom know what they are talking about, but from God.
So, what I wanted to say was, yes, many of you are right about what you have noticed with the "church" and the government. But please don't confuse that with the reality of what is there.

Paganus-

You obviously have not read through Paul's letters to see what Paul is saying . He is talking about the New Convenant that Jesus spoke of during the last supper, and that faith- trust in God is what God is looking for, with works to back it up.

You short post shows you don't want to confront this truth, or just don't want to create any controversy in your own head about it.

You don't know the scriptures if you don't know about the faith/works concept and the New convenant.

It was not surprising for me to note that out of the many postings I read regarding Cal Thomas's writing, I saw so few that stuck to the subject, and fewer still lacked logic. Churchill surely was right

Thank you Mr. Cal Thomas!
Now that we discover USA and UK are not Christian countries, you have done a great service to Peace. The only thing left now is to spread the message loud and clear to Islamic nations hoping that the news discovery would have them refrain from targeting all other Christians in their countries because of Bush and Blair’s war. These extreme right wing politicians have been abusing religion for their ideological war.

Curtiss Calleo,

You wrote:

"Thank god someone has the sense to say it out loud"

I thought you were an atheist. Apparently even those who claim not to believe, occasionally call upon 'god'.

Therein abides TRUTH.

I do think one aspect of religion in America (Christian or otherwise) that should be considered is the fact that religion is considered by many to be the only institution that will preserve virtue over the generations (and that virtue is indispensable to our republic). So probably more important than "which faith or denomination is most characteristic of our nation", is rather, if we agree virtue is necessary, "what are the state and trends of our collective virtue"--is it measurable? And how influential are our churches, temples, and synagogues in teaching virute? What are the consequences of the loss of virtue? And, more fundamentally,what are the salient, necessary virtues? Also, if we don't believe religion is necessaray, what will preserve virtue?

Any time you see someone (on here or anywhere) throwing out figures, run. Run just as fast as your little legs can take you because the person throwing out the figures is almost invariably making things up. Here is an example from a previous post in this thread by BRAMBLETON:

"For example, including sales tax, property tax and income tax, a poor person pays almost 50% of their INCOME in taxes, while a really rich person often pays less than 1%."

Can't beleive I even bothered to read what Cal Tomas (whatever) wrote. What a waste of three minutes. who is he, anyway?

It baffles my mind that, in a country like this where we have religious freedom, we still fight over the existence of God and criticize others for believing. I have found through my intellectual pursuits on the matter that those who often don't believe cannot grapple the vastness of the claim. For God's sake, science seems to point to a higher being. The latest in physics and science concerning the "Big Bang" Theory point to the theory that something had to start it (unless you believe in negative pressure which has never been proven or experimentally verified). The skeptics don't believe because intellect says otherwise. Intellect also said that the world was flat. And that we were the center of the universe. And that women had penises (look it up; medieval philosophy. It's true).

In any event, I daren't think that this country is a Christian nation. Honestly, this article is stupid anyway. It really doesn't say anything. What we are is a national founded on Christian principles. Death penalty aside (might as well throw in abortion and assisted suicide) we do value those things things traditionally valued as Christian ideals.

Impressive. I think that, for all the hue and cry over radical right-wing Christians and their agenda, we as a nation are in pretty good shape compared to others.

At the height of the British empire, they actually saw themselves as the New Jerusalem--a place hole enough for Jesus Christ himself to walk. A nationalistic hymn of that time included the following lyric:

"I will not cease from Mental Fight,
Nor shall my Sword sleep in my hand,
Till we have built Jerusalem
In England’s green and pleasant Land. "

History has proved that Christianity is an ideal means to the reformation of one's personal character, but it is a disasterous tool for improvement on a vast scale such as nation-building and imperialism.

Todd, your suggestion that Christians who embrace the concept of Christ as Savior "pursue their personal salvation at the expense of other concerns" simply doesn't square with reality.

Consider the recent findings of charity expert Arthur C. Brooks. His study on charity giving found that the average religious conservative is very charitable. Among the "blue" states, where most Christians of your persuasion live, only one state (Maryland) breaks into the 25 most generous states. The Christians you label as selfish and inconsiderate of the poor are putting their faith into action and are the ones who are all over the globe ministering to the poor and disadvantaged.

More often than not, when a "christian" (the lower case is appropriate, because you do not accept the divinity of Christ) of your persuasion talks about a "greedy" or "selfish" Christian, you are referring to a Christian who simply does not accept the notion that government is in the best position to help the poor and disadvantaged.

What Cal says is true because so many belive that they are special. Even the guy that uses Sam's toilet paper, and made a twisted comment.

Mike, Pam, Ron, Richard Ryckoff: Bravo! Well said.

I stopped believing years ago, every religion claim that it has the ONLY correct truth....as told in their collection of myth and superstition called a holy book. Gimme the rule of law and good science.

I love my country (USA) but recognize our history is full of greedy disgrace, from slavery 200+ plus years ago to ripping off Irish, Jews, Poles, Italians, Germans, Swedes and other nationalities that came here in the latter 1800's and early 1900's....to how our wonderful business community that shamelessly takes merciless advantage of illegal aliens today. We had it drummed into us about how good we are, yaddaX3, but there's so much dirt below this nice facade...our democratic disneyland is a sewer of greed. Is it any wonder so many nations consider us, and especially our Congress, a dirty joke? I don't blame the French and Germans for not joining us in Iraq...they're too smart to get sucked into the nonsense of the cross-eyed cretin we have for a president...who can't even articulate a sentence if standing up.

Religion is a myth, concocted 25,000 years ago to explain the unexplainable to fearful cave people, before good science taught us the world is round, the sun DOES not revolve around us. There is no god of wind, rain, fire, water, etc....it's all a cave-man era protocol designed to control people in an age when boundaries, norms and limits had to be set in small village settings and there was no lawman or 911 to call....only myth and an invisible curse of eternal damnation if you did not comply, all administered by a village elder from his glory cave. Times have changed. Time to convert our churches to schools (for ethics, duh) which we dearly need, convert them to daycare centers, political clubs, league of women voters debate halls, sport halls, community centers, etc.

The worst thing that I see in today's America is the Alliance Defense Fund, a group of lawyers in Arizona, bankrolled by Dobson, Robertson and Falwell - and with the STATED purpose of aligning national policy (LAW) with "christian" doctrine. This is every bit as dangerous to our nation as the Taliban was to Afghanistan...establishment of policy as defined by a set of murderous, hateful old cranks who simply want to control everyone.

I never liked the ACLU, but with the American Taliban of Dobson, Robertson and Falwell roaming the land, I've sent the ACLU a check THIS year -and hope you do to. The biggest danger to America is from within, the American Taliban will ruin us if we fail to stop their evil scheme to control us with their definition of what is "right". I have no doubt that Dobson would burn gays at the stake if he could do it...such is his lust for power...and too many idiots in Congress are glad to take his money and do their evil bidding....

Science. Law. Equality. Brotherhood.

Horray! Finally! The definitive statement for separating church and state: We are not a Christian nation because Christianity is beyond nations. I, as an atheist, am fine with that. Thank god someone has the sense to say it out loud: religion belongs OUT of the government, out of the laws, back where it belongs, in people's consciences and consiousness. I can respect religion as long as it respects my beliefs.

CC

Aside from what the scriptures say, in the time of global economy and worldwide communication between people of all nations through internet, segregating ourselves by religion, race or nationality is not a practical idea. After all, if there is a creator (God) for this universe, we all are his children. We should work toward the unity of the mankind.

mr. thomas brought up salient points and a wise admonition.

Cal Thomas is honest, whatever criticisms may otherwise be made against him, and I think he's on target about this. If all on both ends of the political spectrum would follow the example of his honesty, we'd all benefit.

This is not a Christian nation. If Americans were practicing Christianity there would not be one starving child in the world. We have the capability to feed the world. If this were a Christian nation, people living bloated lifestyles in obscenely large homes would open their doors to the homeless. If this were a Christian nation, we would be working toward peace in the world and doing all that we could to see that all beings everywhere were cared for and safe. This is not a Christian nation. It's just a country full of people who think they are Christians. Christ would be appalled.

Right conclusion but for the wrong reasons. America is great (or at least has the potential to be when its constitution is respected and is not arrogant) because we had some extremely intelligent people in charge when it was most important -- at the time its mission and laws were written down on paper and then debated and ratified. These documents were based on the founders' intimate knowledge of history, and especially the previous constitutions in Britain and the colonies. We should all be eternally grateful.
One should always remember Jefferson and Franklin were first and foremost men of science, and Adams a man of law. The Bible and Christianity were necessary decorations in the late 18th century, and their influence in our founding documents is negligible. We should all be eternally grateful.

Why aren't we a Christian nation? Moses was given the 10 Commandments from God to govern nations. That is the foundation of all of our laws.

Did God send new instructions to Cal Thomas?

The United States is a all religions country. Every one who come to live here had de oportunity to advance as they choose. To labeled it a Christian Nation is to ignore and dismiss all de others religions whose God is not Christ. Now in this United States like many other Countres there is the petulant believe that God is with us and not with ours contrary. If we are to be just with Crhist we have to remember the live He lived by loving everybody no matter if the followe Him or not.

The United States is a all religions country. Every one who come to live here had de oportunity to advance as they choose. To labeled it a Christian Nation is to ignore and dismiss all de others religions whose God is not Christ. Now in this United States like many other Countres there is the petulant believe that God is with us and not with ours contrary. If we are to be just with Crhist we have to remember the live He lived by loving everybody no matter if the followe Him or not.

Hi Cal! Granted that some of our nation's founders were Christian but they are all dead now! Over the centuries "religious" humans have spilled more blood than I care to remember. Cal, there is no old man with a white beard in a white dress sitting on a cloud. Is it to be peace or Onward Christian Soldiers? Happy holiday (holy day). rhdavignon

America is AMERICA, is liberty, is tolerance, is democracy, is respect, is everything.

God is not neutral on freedom. America is the most free country and because of it has been blessed with the most of everything.

Hmmm. Seems like most of the folks posting here are kinda like my wonderful wife. Just love to argue about something, anything. Then, after the argument degrades into a heated altercation, she goes off all pissed off and pouts.
Hmmm. Americans. Pouters. I'd like to see the pontificator T: after he gets done spouting his 4 dollar words trying to impress the hell out everyone that he is indeed the knowledgable one among the ranters. I imagine him looking very much like the picture of good old Cal, kinda uppity. Kinda snooty like.
Wanna argue a bit, T?

Bang on Josh. Thanks!

Why the hell do we need to argue over this? Why does everybody care so much whether we're a christian nation or not. If every 'devout' christian would keep their mouth shut and leave the judgement to god we'd be in a lot better condition. It seems funny to me that there is always alot of debate over who's right and wrong when it comes to Salvation based religions, who regularly use missions and such to try to 'convert' subjects (whiched worked great in the crusades, inquisition, and israeli policy, but never any argument when it comes to enlightenment based religions such as buddhism.

If living a decent life, being good to my neighbors, honest with my friends and compassionate with my family doesn't save my soul, I don't want it to be saved. I'm more concerned with stopping global warming and obtaining world peace, because despite what many of my dead relatives have told themselves, the rapture's not coming anytime soon. We've got issues to face in this world RIGHT NOW that will effect our children and grandchildren long after we're gone. I'm not going to use the rapture as an excuse to keep my head in the sand.

This debate seems to me, as an outsider, rather pointless because "Christian" Americans do not come across as having many real "Christian" values, and the execution of the religion more akin to godf***ing, i.e. dirtying something that should be sacred.
The impression is that Americans look upon themselves as more than others because they, like the pharisees, display a very visible devotion that is not followed up with altruistic deeds.
GWB is a prime sample of an American G-F!
This is of course a very superficial view of American society, but when we see the cheats and the liars and the spin-doctors that run the US, it is the reality we use to form our opinion.

"...there is no man without his faults, none without his burden. None is sufficient in himself; none is wise in himself; therefore we must support one another, comfort, help, teach, and advise one another."
-- Thomas à Kempis

An excellent and lovely quote, Mr. Pies. Thank you for sharing it.

Pam: well said re. evolution.

Paganus: well said re. scientific process.

JSLU: "god made them male and female and nothing in between." You may want to do some research prior to just spouting off what you think to be truth as though it were true in reality. Something isn't true just because you think or believe it is. Humans are made by their parents when egg and sperm fuse. Twenty-three chromosomes typically come from each parent. Usually from the male comes one autosome, either X or Y. Sometimes, however, meiosis allows a sperm to contain both an X and a Y autosome. The result is what you claim doesn't exist: a true hermaphrodite: a person who is both male and female; all the hardware is there. Little different than a pine tree or an earthworm. BTW: sexes are not limited to male and female. Paramecium have eight sexes. Any one sex may conjugate with any of the other seven.

People of religion come up with their version of truth through hallucination. They fight and kill each other to decide who is right. The survivor is the one who is right. This is how the "HOLY" bible came to have the exact set of books in its cannon. If you don't believe me, take a course in church history; go look at the PRIMARY SOURCES and see for yourself.

Scientists don't make up contorted ideas of reality then kill each other to see who's right. They carefully craft hypotheses and go through a rigorous process of observing and testing. They try just as hard to disprove something as to prove it. They don't blow off inconsistancies the way religious people do (Look at Genesis Ch. 1 and Ch. 2. One says god made man then later the animals to keep him company. The other says that animals were made first, then man. These "inerrantist" fools just blow it off). Scientists also continually modify their models as new information comes to light. Religious zealots are so cock sure that they have everything all figured out that their egos never allow them to adapt.

There are all sorts of bizarre beliefs in the realm of Ontology (that which is true). Ontology begs the epistomological question, "How do you know that what you say is true really is true?" There are all sorts of epistomologies that people espouse: "God told me so; I had a 'personal experience' with him." "The authority of truth is vested in the pope." "The authority of truth is vested in a religious text." Well the problem is that there are others who say, "But I had an experience with a different god than your god and my god told me your god is false," or "My holy leader told me that your holy leader is false," or "My holy book says that your holy book is false." What a bunch of childish nonsense all of this is. With systems of "logic" we get a little better at seeking truth. There are several types and systems of logic (syllogistic, dialectic, etc.) and reasoning (induction, deduction, etc). The hypothetico-deductive model of scientific investigation is the only epistomology that attempts to first use rational reason to construct a hypothesis of what one thinks to be true and then rigorously tests it to find whether it actually is true. Any ontology based upon any other epistomology is simply an act of "faith" i.e. believing something to be true simply because it is what the one wishes to believe as true; there is no testing, no methodical observation, no verification-just "believing" because it is what one wishes and chooses to do.

While Cal Thomas is right on this particular point, I find it symptomatic of the Washington Post's total lack of judgment that it would give a columnist with as little regard for the truth as Mr. Thomas a favored place in a discussion about faith.

Cal -
It would have been nice if you'd had the balls to came out and say this, oh say anytime in the last six years. It's amusing to see all the right-wing columnists tinkering with the message after the last election.

Doug,

So Doug, are we the new Israel? That what you seem to be implying. Which prophet declared that?

Has Cal Thomas ever read the Bible? God clearly had a special relationship with the ancient kingdom of Israel according to scripture. It was special in that He selected their leaders, helped them to win wars, assigned to them territory, gave them laws, etc.

Colorado,

What is false about what Mike says? And why does pointing out the faults of our nation equate, for you, to hatred of our nation? Do YOU like every thing about America? Do you like our abortion laws? Do you like Jefferson's wall between church and state?

I'll bet you anything that if you are a thinking person then you can come up with some things about America that you would like to change.

So why suffer others who point out our faults?

(yes, I was born in the US and lived here all my life, including my years in the US military)?

Cal Thomas (and virtually ALL Christians) are unable to even acknowledge the facts re. the Founders' philosophical views.
Almost all of the founders were either deists, agnostics or atheists. And many were explicitly anti-Christian (don't believe this -- check out some quotes from Jefferson, Franklin, Paine and others vis a vis Christianity). They thought Christianity was quackery, absurd and very deleterious.
The terrible dominance of our culture by the Judeo/Christian creed prevents most people from even having access to an accurate history of the founding of their own country.
Thomas, as others here have observed, is not a good source, despite an occasional tenuous connection with reality.

Mike writes:

"This year we murdered more innocent people around the world than any other nation, we regularly murder our own citizens if they go astray and break the law, we deny our poor citizens access to health care, food and shelter, we are destroying the earth with our gluttony at a far greater rate than any other nation, we value money over good deeds, we make the poor pay a greater percentage of their income in total taxes than the rich, etc..."

But NOTHING Mike said is true. What is it with people like Mike whose heart is so full of hatred for their own country (I assume, maybe incorrectly, that Mike is a U.S. citizen) that they must lie in an effort to demean it? What a bunch of morons here who either write lies or write that Cal Thomas is a nut job and the bible is toilet paper. Wow. Happy Holidays folks!

Those of you who are attacking Cal Thomas or turning it into a chance for a petty argument are behaving absurdly.

Here, we have a Christian Conservatism advocating that america be humble and suggesting that the Christianist movement is wrong.

Brambleton:

"The ONLY way to Heaven is through a relationship with Christ. "Nobody comes to the Father but through Me".

What does this have to do with the question of church and state? Personally, I don't want to go to heaven, don't give a rat's tongue about going to heaven. I don't need anything more from God, The Creator. What God has given me already is enough.

I will live a moral life and treat God's gift of Creation with the greatest respect. One need only look at Falwell, Bakker and other Christian thugs and outlaws to see that Christianity is a poor moral guide.

No theocracy for me.

Dear Jesus, please protect us from your followers. Amen.

PAM,

Keep up the fight, though, frustrating as it may be!

;)

Paganus wrote:
"You realize, of course, that the answer to the problem of fossils, vestigious organs, limbs, etc., for many on the religious right, is "The Devil is tempting us.

They don't want to think - they want to believe in a way that obviates the need for systematic rational thought."

Right, sorry, lost my head for a moment there. Why would I ever think that rationality would make an impression?
:)

Yes, the Christian Right is neither.

As someone not raised in the Christian faith, I always wonder what is meant by the term, "Christian" (as in "We are a Christian nation" or "I am a Christian."). One of the best answers I have found is in the writing of the 15th c. Augustinian monk, Thomas a Kempis. In his "Counsels on the Spiritual Life," Thomas writes, "...there is no man without his faults, none without his burden. None is sufficient in himself; none is wise in himself; therefore we must support one another, comfort, help, teach,and advise one another."

As the holidays draw near, perhaps we can take Thomas's message to heart, no matter how the term "Christian" has been used or misused throughout history.

The writer is the author of, "Ethics of the Sages", an interfaith examination of a book of the Talmud.

Ron,

While I applaud your appeal to civility (from which I have shamefully deviated at points in this discourse) I must say that while I find your optimism charming, it does not serve you or your fellow citizens well. If the Christian rightists had a choice, you would be up against the wall with me. Their leadership is not concerned with civility, only dominance, and if they are not forcefully opposed in every possible way, they will bring a SECOND darkness upon the West. The struggle against religious fundamentalism begins at home....

One more point. If you are a Christian and you are trying to rationalize your faith then you are not a good Christian. Faith is as ends unto itself. You should believe in God because faith. Those who want to attack science because it does a better job of explaining the world are mistaken in what the role of religion is, or is supposed to be. Science and Religion are not talking about the same things. It is like having a conversation about two subjects in two different languages. The rusults of such a conversation are probably going to be in disagreement.

For those who are trying to defend religion by calling people gay or using other such simplistic language, you should be aware that even though we do not know who you are, your God does.

BTW if Christianity is about loving your neighbor and forgiveness those who espose hatred, ie REPENT and JLSU should do a bit more praying and little less fingerpointing. Also, JLSU please retake English 101 as your grammer is horrible.

This entire conversation is moot. Those who believe in a fundamentalist version of Christianity will belive anything and no amount of debate will convince them that they are wrong. So to have an arguement in which one side is not willing to think about alternative answers is a practice in futility

WHATS HIS POINT?

To Anon (cowardly right wing nut) - James Dobson evil? That's a piece of cake. He supports the single most evil, ruthless, wicked, and murderous Administration in U.S. history. Anyone supporting our idiot "president" George Bush or our President in Charge of Vice, "slick Dick" Cheney, is by derfinition a swine.

Weigh In,

On the contrary, you are the one taking things out of context. In chapter 3, the criterion for salvation that is opposed to faith is adherence ot the law, NOT good deeds per se, which he has clearly separated from adherence to the law in Ch 2. And you still have the other passages to deal with....

Cheers,

"Thou shalt not have no other Gods before me." Okay, this is just stupid. This guy just shows his lack of biblical knowledge by getting hold of one scripture and running with it. Old Testament 101: God considered Israel a Jewish nation, although not all Israelites were Jews. The unbelievers were sanctified through the believing Jews. Nations were spared by a handful of faithful believers. If Cal spent a little more time reading and less time philosphizing, he'd know this.

Oops - the word is "spectacularly" - forgive the spelling error.

Wasn't the purpose of this "On Faith" series to elicit "fruitful, intriguing, and above all constructive conversation about the things that matter most..."? If so, judging from some of the posts I've read, it's failing spectalarly in achieving that lofty level of discourse. Isn't there a moderator somewhere in this mean-spirited mess?