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Good site! I'll stay reading! Keep improving!

Good site! I'll stay reading! Keep improving!

In response to Gilbert's reference to Abraham. The "faith-inspiring" part I see here is that Abraham did not kill his child, nor did he believe he would have to by the time he arrived at the mountain. He is quoted as saying to Isaac: "God will provide the lamb," and so it was. The story is set in a primitive time when religious offerings, including human sacrifice, were thought to please the gods. Abraham came to a new understanding of God through this event. The conviction of Abraham's heart was confirmed - God was not going to require human sacrifice for Abraham to denote his worship. The story is primitive, as are many in the Old Testament, and I think it is best read as taking place within the religious and cultural context of another era.

The problem with religion is that faith is considered a virtue. The story of Abraham's scheming to murder his kids is a classic story of his "faith". If Abraham was born now he will be in jail for child abuse. And yet many Christians believe this is a beautiful story of faith. This shows how religion taints your rationality, and when people are irrational it is that much easier to make them do irrational things.

I stumbled on this thread, but was quickly drawn in by the "discussion." I am a follower of Jesus Christ and strongly agree with Mr. McLaren's comments. The strident posts here saddens me.

We don't need a Christian government or school teachers to practice our faith. [Christianity grew under persecution.] I shuddered when I first read "Matthew's" post. Jesus Christ showed grace and mercy to people who understood and followed His teachings. But Jesus had less than flattering words to say to those of His day who abused their religion. The Pharisees were political as well as religious leaders. And their goal was to impose their brand of the Mosiac Law on everyone else. Jesus clearly stated that he did not come to eliminate the Law, but to fulfill it. He understood that the abusers of the Law did not necessarily require the Law be dismantled.

I am increasingly aware of and challenge those assumptions of my faith that have no Biblical foundation. That said, I find no reason to throw out the baby with the bath water. I am far from perfect. There are people in my church who will back me up on this.

As has been observed, many world religions have their share of extremists. I wonder: if America ever had a President who blatantly abused his authority, do we dismantle the democratic system? No. We address the person and his/her indiscretions. Our belief systems aren't so much to blame as how those of us who adhere to them abuse them.

Well that's probably enough from me. Keep thinking and praying all!

Phantasto: “And a question to the angry atheists who always post on these boards. If there were more Christian leaders like Brian McLaren, would you still hate Christianity as much? I'm curious.”

I’m a happy atheist and am acquainted with many others. I also don’t hate Christianity, having recently been a practicing Christian and having many Christian friends and family. When I see Christen leaders like Brian McLaren, I want to them to take one more step and acknowledge that they know the stories of the Bible are myth (which they learn in academic seminaries, but don’t pass down to their congregations) and then use their formidable skills to help people live fully the only lives that they will ever have.

DR RP: “that guy Matthew is exactly why it is dangerous in this country to admit to being an unbeliever. People like that would put unbelievers in death camps if they had a chance”

Yes, but if more atheists admit their unbelief, and reasonable Christians like McLaren see what upstanding citizens most of us are (without fear of hell hanging over us), then Matthew and his ilk will lose their power – which at this point is a lot of hot air and the ability to instill fear.

People with Matthew’s beliefs are currently on the fringe of society. They have threatened the legal structure (demanding teaching creationism in the schools) but not won. Facing them, not staying in hiding, is the way to defeat them. I’m hopeful that people like McLaren would agree.

The practice of religion or worship will never be perfect, as McLaren points out. We are all flawed. I believe that much of McLaren teachings are flawed but agree with what he has said in this post. McLaren will make mistakes but as a believer will always have an advantage over a vain person like Hitchins. God bless you Brian and may you endure unto the end.

Psalm 14:1 The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds, there is none that does good.

Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction.

John 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.

"Hitchins can burn in heck"? Father, are you sure you're not Ned Flanders. How Christ like is that, damning someone to "heck"? What's up with you?

Father O'Marlowe: So the internet is an invention of the devil? But you're using it ?!??!

Got a long night of self-flagellation planned to atone for this sin, do you?

I really think you should pick up a book other than the bible. There have been a few good ones written in the last few millenia.

Hitchins can burn in heck.
He is not a good person to deny the existence of his maker. It is sinful.(It's in the Book).
Hitchens is obviously not what you'd call God fearing. I mean REALLY! Who does he think he is???
He should throw away all his books and read,and reread the Bible,before it's too late.
The Lord thy God is an angry God,and He doesn't appreciate people telling lies about Him.Especially over the internet,which is an invention of the Devil.
Our Father,which are in Heaven,Hallowed be Thy Name.Forgive Brother Hitchins for he knows not what he is about.
F.O.

And we will be happy to work with you Mr. Mclaren, as you have achieved a transcendental state of wisdom that most religous believers have not achieved.
Ironically (to some), the very thing that has brought you to such an enlightened and compassionate state is the thing that can get you exiled from conservative families, communities, and nations --- common sense and truth.

Thank you for your warm voice.

You claim:

"Hitchens implies all religious people are this way. This kind of hasty or unqualified generalization funds many forms of racism and prejudice."

Did you actually read his book? This is not what he implies at all. He's making the point that religious folk can use their "good books" and dogmas to *justify* bad behaviour. "Why did you kill all those people?" "Because my holy book says I have to." Unquestioning belief of this sort is dangerous to society, and would be much rarer if the Koran/Bible (etc) didn't make these actions pardonable - which they DO.

Religion is dangerous because it removes resposibility from the idividual, and places it on the head of a mythical being.

Regardless of religion's antisocial and dangerous aspects, he also makes the point that no religion has anything like proper evidence to support it (thus, is probably all made-up; something he describes with effect), but that doesn't seem to bother many of the "faithful".

-=danny=-

Phantasto, that guy Matthew is exactly why it is dangerous in this country to admit to being an unbeliever. People like that would put unbelievers in death camps if they had a chance. I shudder to think of what it will be like if someone even more religious than our current "decider" gets into office (regardless of what party he comes from).

I think you are going to have to dig deep to find the "lone candidate" who hasn't professed his deep belief in some god. Everyone seems to have forgotten what seperation of church and state means.

Does anyone seriously believe there is a difference between a fundamentalist Christain who believes it is essential to mold a government that reflects his or her values and an Islamist who wants to do the same thing in Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, wherever? In my humble opinion, the greater the fear that drives one toward fixed and certain faith in whatever, the more strident and unforgiving the behavior. We've only had a few Christians who have taken up weapons to express their point of view in this country, a bomb in Oklahoma City, a few abortion clinics destroyed, a rifle to kill a doctor who did his job by performing an abortion for women requesting those services, but don't write them off as an aberration. Extremists exist on the far right in this country and they are invariably aligned with the Christian faith.

So, yes, I'm troubled by the fact that folks running for election feel obliged to wear the cross even as they wave the flag. We may have a highest church attendance of any country on this planet, but we're also the world's purveyor of weapons used to wreak havoc everywhere we look. Remember, the fundamentalists are enamored with the rapture, which looks forward with great anticipation to the apocalypse that presages the final days. When the red heifer appears in Israel the end can't be far behind. And would you be surprised if I told you that right-thinking evangelical Christians from America are doing their best to make certain one appears sooner rather than later?

If one isn't troubled by Christianity, one isn't paying close attention. In addition to Christians who exhibit kindness, there are whackos who want nothing more than to control this country, and control the world on the way to ending it.

Yes Hitchins is foolish if he thinks a little logic will stand bteween me and my God.
The reason my faith is so secure is that I know it is on another level from logic and reason and overrated rationalism.
There's more to life than making sense. Sense is for the weak and unsteady.
The highest virtue is accorded those who believe in the least likely,and the most seemingly silly.
Any fool can believe in logic and earthly common sense.
It takes a man of true Faith to believe in the apparently ridiculous.
The Lord understands because he is The Lord.
Need one say more?

Phantasto,

The point is atheists are against the LORD. That makes them blasphemers and sinners. They will be judged and incur the wrath of God. They will spend an eternity in the fires of hell.

You say Christians "meddle in politics." As well we should. This is a Christian nation founded on Christian principles by born-again Christians. We will take back our country.

We are organizing in our churches to make sure our elected leaders are Biblical Christians. We need leaders who will oppose homosexuality, abortion, and who favor the death penalty. We need a strong national defense to protect ourselves from the satanic religions such as Islam.

We need our public schools to teach Christian principles and the Truth about God's creation instead of the lies of evolution. Our public-school teachers should also be committed Biblical Christians.

Phantasto, sorry the post above is mine. I wanted to address it to you and accidentally typed your name in the top box.

I would say the the vast majority of atheists/agnostics have nothing against religious people as long as they keep their faith out of politics and in their respective churches.

Alas, that is not the case. The Christians in this country meddle in politics all the time and it appears they have a powerful voice.

Now that is something I am adamantly opposed to. Our elected officials are to serve all the citizens of this country, not the christian majority. I truly believe that politics and religion should never, ever mix. It is sad that every single candidate running for president in 2008 has opted to tout His/her spiritual belief and the voters have just eaten it up as far as I can tell.

I think I will have to vote for the lone candidate that leaves his religion in his closet, so to speak, should one emerge.

The increasingly vocal and strident tone of the athiests like Hitchens should be a wake-up call for us Christians. Are we not, in fact, giving them ammunition to bolster their own arguments. When we take on a self-righteous, judgemental tone, we appear to be intolerant at best. In fact, when we judge others, we are committing the worst sin of all, which is claiming to be in God's place. If we want to judge, we should start with ourselves - that is repentance. Remember what Jesus said, he who is without sin should cast the first stone. As Mr. McLaren has written, we should remember that Jesus taught that the Kingdom of God is like a mustard seed. We should be the ones to plant those seeds.

A non-essentialist & non-reductivist but nonetheless historically informative definition of 'religion' would have been helpful - - -

X is a religion if X has at least a majority of the following characteristics: . . . . . . . . .

Otherwise claims about the vices or virtues of religion-as-such or a particular religion are worthless and only invite self-serving defensiveness from the so-called "faithful" of all "faiths", religious & non-religious, naturalist & non-naturalist, X & non-X!

As it was once well put, all of us live by "the substance of things unseen, the evidence of things hoped for", that is, that part of each person's web of beliefs in which we each, respectively, put our ultimate trust, only to be vindicated or not by living by those beliefs.

convinced by winning. U hate lusers; count up the score to please yourself. Who can argue with that?

Brian, thanks for the inspiration, as always. And a question to the angry atheists who always post on these boards. If there were more Christian leaders like Brian Mclaren, would you still hate Christianity as much? I'm curious.

Christopher Hitchens is a moron. There is no nice way to say that.

He blames religion, esp. Christianity, for all of the violence in the world, when the number one murderous religion is atheistic communism, followed closely by evolutionary fascism.

Hitchens is willfully and happily ignorant of facts, it allows him to feel that he is as close to god-status as anyone can get, and that he is unaccountable of his transgressions.

Remember this Christopher, only Him from which your namesake comes can wash you of your sins.

I think you are right that Hitchins's statement is too sweeping and general and would cause the very thing he says he abhors. But I think it's easy to forget that it's not just that people DO bad things while they're claiming to be following the "good" teachings, it's that they USE those "good" teachings to justify them.

Does it really matter why people do things? If a religious person kills someone, and a non-religious person kills someone, isn't the result of both the same? The Inquisition may have been to punish heretics, or it may have been to gain gold & lands, or it may have been revenge, etc, etc, etc. Does it matter why?

To me, it matters that religious institutions try to say they're better people than everybody else. That is to me the reason the Catholics shielded pedophiles and sexual predators. It's the hypocrisy that gets to me.

"Unfortunately, religious people don't have a monopoly on these behaviors. This fact may be obscured by the fact that most people in history, by a very large majority, have been religious, so the sample of irreligious people is smaller to begin with."

Yes, the argument that the many good things that have been done by religious people is simply a reflection of the fact that "most people in history, by a very large majority, have been religious" can be flipped to argue that the many bad things that have been done by religious people is simply a reflection of the large majority of religious people.

Except when religion is explicitly the fuel and motor for intolerance, bigotry, contempt, exclusion, violence ...

Only religion offers eternal paradise and threatens eternal damnation.