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Jim, you posted:
"As usual... believers rationalize..."
and
"Americans that are Bush supporters... have no rational thought processes anyway."

Assuming that you are equating believers with Bush supporters, do you see the contradiction in your invective?

Also, as a believer in God's natural law, I do agree that secularists indigenous and foreign can exhibit Christ-like attitudes and fruit of the spirit, in many cases to a greater extent than that which characterizes the church. However your hubris drenched declaration of the fact of no God (lol)is certainly no example of this.
Cheers.

It is true, doubt is not only the “ants in the pants” but it is the ants in the overall of faith. However, The Old Testament often works as the anti-dot for doubt. This is because God is personalized in the stories of Israel in a way that shows Him as mobile and alive. We see that in His relationship with Abraham, Moses, the children of Israel, Samuel, David, and Solomon. With out any doubt you can feel God’s presence through these stories, and also through the miracles of Jesus Christ. But again, doubt will remain an incurable disease of faith regardless of people’s faith background, roots and intentions of their doubt. However,knowing that faith and doubt are two faces of the same coin is very healthy, and can possibly help many to keep one face of the coin visible.

(Unfortunately, the first eight responses had nothing to do with Brian's post. I do wish folks would stop abusing this forum.)

Sorry, Tony5140. Meant to say "most of the first eight." Liked yours too.

Jim,

Do not be disingenuous all people have faith in something. Where is your faith placed? Yourself? Reason? Science?

When my mother passed, I wanted nothing more than to think she was going to a better place to be bathed in the love of a savior who would heal her mind, body and soul. But I still couldn't quite persuade myself that my wish was anything other than a wish. But I wanted to believe. My sister and brother-in-law attended Brian's church for a long time, so I've read his book and kept an eye on his "public profile." The first time I went to their church, I met him after the service and said, "I'm sorry, but you've got this whole God thing all wrong. You're playing too much good music, talking too much about love and redemption, and not sending nearly enough people to Hell." He laughed really hard, which showed me a great deal about him. I'd ask my fellow non-believers not to be bigots about religious neighbors, colleagues, and public figures. Some of my best friends are Christians! Really!

One amateur philosopher I know said this:
"Regardless of what we believe, we all have doubt in our faith- or lack of it. Rather that we doubt as we search for the truth, than we believe as we take it for granted.
We doubt, therefore we think, therefore we are. By our own exertions we learn our true beliefs, just as we gain our faith, through knowledge."

Certainly, Christians have just as much right to their doubts as any other religious group or non-believers.
Mother Teresa's doubts--if we are still on that subject--ought to take little away from her life, as long as her deeds were in accord with her creed.

I would be more inclined to find fault with the so-called firm beliefs leading to extremism, and particularly lies to justify those beliefs,
blindly, all in the name of the certainty of our "faith".

Doubt is a useful tool whether you believe in God or not. Doubt creates questions and as much as we all love answers, questions are actually more beneficial. Questions are creative and questions are what move us forward.

Questions let us evolve our beliefs whether they are spiritual or secular. We get to examine what works and what does not work as questions are asked and answered and more questions are created.

Even if God is just a human construct of the mind it can be a useful one. If it evolves with the needs of society then we move forward. If not it holds us back.

If God does indeed exist our understanding of God must evolve if we are too move forward. Otherwise we hold ourselves back. While I personally find little use in organized religion in terms of moving my spirituality forward I do appreciate people like McLaren who attempt to move us forward.

As for Mother Teresa I think I respect her even more now knowing how much compassion she gave when her doubts were at times so great. Maybe she didn’t solve the ills of the world, but I am sure those she touched were grateful she was here. Perhaps we don’t agree with her faith but even if the best people can do is show the same amount of compassion as she did the world would be a better place.

Wow - you mentioned Mother Teresa all of once in your long essay?

"my opinion" "my book" "me, I"

blah blah blah...

Brian, I really appreciate your post. And Jane and Marjorie, I appreciate your responses. (Unfortunately, the first eight responses had nothing to do with Brian's post. I do wish folks would stop abusing this forum.)

What is remarkable about Mother Theresa's doubt is that she did not let it take away her will to do the work she was doing. Perhaps it made her will to serve even stronger, as she perhaps began to see unselfish works as the highest form of religious practice. I often find that the most effective way to deal with "existential dread" is to plunge myself into my work until I lose myself in it. I can then sleep better at night knowing that for one day I have striven my utmost to do the right thing.

Regarding the comments of Brian D. McLaren:

I have learned from experience in my own life across the years that doubt and questioning are the great--though mostly unwelcome--calls to look inside and see what adjustments and sometimes drastic changes need to be made in my faith as I make my way through this world.

There have been times when God seemed so close and I felt such a warm communion with Him and then without a word of warning, He withdrew.

Or seemed to, or perhaps really does. I don't know. I only know that there is a perception of absence.

But something deep down sustains and in the face of all the seeming absence there is a quiet voice whispering: "You are not alone nor ever will be."

I think that the revelations concerning Mother Teresa's doubts only make more wonderful and inspiring the work she accomplished across her lifetime.

To continue to walk and work and care so deeply for others, in the face of one's own painful and disturbing doubts is an act of deepest Love and Charity.

Thank God for her example and the examples of so many who have moved ahead in faith, in spite of their doubts and pain.

They are the great examples to all of us as we move forward on our pilgramage through this world and in the dryness of our own personal deserts, give us the love and courage to keep on going.

Thank you, Mother Teresa.

Respectfully

Marjorie Simpkiss-Contag

Jim, respectfully, it seems that the "guilt by association" argument that you're using about Stalin, Hitler, as well as others, such as mustache-wearers and Scandanavians, is the exact argument you're using against McLaren.

You seem to be arguing that since McLaren is a Christian, he's a Bush supporter, a supporter of the war in Iraq, believes global warming does not exist, and tells people that if they don't believe in Jesus, they are going to hell. None of which are true. I've known Brian for 17 years, and you will not find these ideas in his teaching as a former pastor, or in his books.

At the same time, I completely understand your frustration with evangelical Christians, and I say that as one. Lately, I've been identifying myself as a student of Jesus, since any other label gets me lumped in with some people I'd rather not be associated with.

It seems that you have found contentment with the belief that there is no God. That's fine with me (not that it matters what's fine with me). And while I understand that many of my brothers and sisters in the faith would attack you for your beliefs, I would not, Brian would not, and both of us would appreciate greatly not being lumped together with the more...ahem...vocal of our faith community.

I wish you all the best in your life's journey.

Time for the media to give equal time to "Non Believers". There should be a column called "On None Faith" There the non-believers can tell their stories about all the harm done by believers and the good done by Non Believers.

- How we were controlled by fear in our early lives - "Beleive in (our version of) God or you will burn in hell". How we overcame our fears - How we are still moral, ethical, tolerant, generous, have high standards and values even though we are "non-believers". How fear is the only way believers can control rational thought.

- How frustrated we have been under the "pressure to belong" or be cast as an "outsider" inelligible for promotion and PUBLIC OFFICE.

- How frustrated and angry we are that teh Christians, Jews and Muslim extremists are determined to destroy the world we live in over which version of a 2000 year old fairy tale is the right fairy tale.

- But wait since we are non believers we are lower class humans. I guess because only 15% of Scandanavians beleive in God, they must be the most ruthless, cuthroat, immoral people on the planet? Instead it is the country with 85% beleivers that fits this description.

- I guess because Stalin was an aetheist, all aetheists are Communist butchers. Stalin and Hitler both had moustaches so all men with mustaches are butchers - But this is the type of logic Christians use !!

- Now the Christians say Global warming is a hoax created by Scientists because those "nasty" scientists cannot be believed because they keep coming up with facts that dispute the accuracy of their Bible. So because of these Christians my grand kids are either going to drown or starve or both.

- Non believers are more likely to save the world . the "believers" are too busy destroying it

When you beging to doubt and you see that your "Faith" in God is dimishing and there is not real^^ answer to the need of justice in the World, then your are becoming "Free" and ready to confront the reality as it is. When you are certain that God does not exist because for one thing to exist now, it means that it did not exist before. Then the idea that God exists now is the result of pressure of the society where you live and the dualist way in which understand our existence.

i read of mother teresa's doubts several years ago and loved her all the more, since i was experiencing those same doubts, while still a very devout catholic.
unlike mother teresa, i could not, in good conscience remain in the church but i still rely on christ's merciful love to guide me in my darkness and cry out daily,as the man in Mark 9:24 did---
"Lord , I believe. Help my unbelief."

i read of mother teresa's doubts several years ago and i loved her even more because i shared those very same doubts while still a very devout catholic.
unlike mother teresa,i could no longer, in good conscience,remain in the church.

my dark night continues but i still rely on christ's
merciful love to help me and cry out every day, as the man did in Mark 9:24 "Lord, i believe, Help my unbelief."

Amen

Amen

As usual, these fairy tale believers rationalize another thing that does not fit their beliefs. This time it is to rationalize away doubt as some sort of indication of maturity. THERE IS NO GOD - Pure and simple -- Zeus, Apollo, the Sun God, all phony, all fake.

What a waste of time and energy. Instead of imposing your beliefs and starting wars, supporting the occupation of foreign countries, trying to invoke the second coming (there wasn't a first), persecuting gays, and dreaming up another version of intelligent design, you should be doing some real good in the world.

Oh well you are the 29% of Americans that are Bush supporters and have no rational thought processes anyway.

America the last bastion of irrational thought and ignorance. More Americans know the Simpson characters than can point to Iraq on a map. Next the Christian right will be advocating the invasion or nuking of Iran that they also cannot locate on a map - Whoops that already happened . .

All the other developed countries have 50% or less of their population beleiving in God and the figure is dropping (Good).

THEY are not starting wars and occupying countries to steal their oil.
THEY are not killing innocent civilians
THEY do not regularly overthrow legitimate governments (Iran in 1953 etc etc).
THEY are being more "Christian" than Christians and have more respect and love for other people that the US Christians will ever have.

If doubt is acceptable and even beneficial, why won't Evangelicals vote for a candidate who expresses religious doubts?

No, to get the Evangelicals' support, you have to be a 1,000% believer in Yahweh and Jesus the Resurrected.

And, for Pastor McLaren, and some other On Faith Panelists, doubt is only acceptable if it is temporary and ends in total belief in conventional Christianity.