Coptic Christians in Egypt are mistreated and their shops burned and all you care about are minarets?

People like apostates Hirsi Ali, and those who DARE 'offended' Muslims are now under 24 hr security from Islamists and all you can do is call the Swiss 'racists'?

When you start speaking out against these atrocities from MUSLIM racists than maybe your words won't ring so hollow.

edbyronadams,

I wish I could say nice try but your efforts to deflect the issue fools no one. You expect everyone to criticize muslims when they seem to be intolerant towards a minority, whereas when Christians vote enmass to corner a tiny, unprotected minority of muslims, we again criticize muslims for bringing it upon themselves. Im sure it wont be obvious to you (it never is) but racism oozes from every word you type. Muslims do have shortcomings, lots of them. But if we're to take your standards and apply them universally, Christianity is by far the most vicious and brutal religion throughout its history. It has caused most number of wars and killed an unprecedented amount of humanity. But you'll never hear a muslim say Christianity is evil or badmouth Jesus or Virgin Mary. I guess thats where muslim bigots seem to have more class than Christian bigots.

Saudi Arab is not a democracy and its just one country. How many mosques are there in and around the Vatican City? Are there any Wahhabi Missionaries in the vatican? And the topic of discussion is not whether proselytisation be allowed or not. The topic of discussion is cornering of a minority which has already suffered a brutal genocide in the heart of Europe by orthodox Christians. This debate was never about the Minarets. The Minarets are a ruse employed by the Swiss fundamentalist to camouflage their hatred of Islam and its culture. There are a total of 4 mosques with Minarets in Switzerland. The rest of the muslims pray in warehouses or empty buildings because they never get permission to build a mosque. I am from Karachi, Pakistan where the Christians are less than 2% of total population. In Karachi alone there are atleast 15 big churches that I know of (you can look it up in wikipedia) plus there are other small churches in every Christian colony spread through different parts of the city. We've never had any such incidents. And we are supposed to be the ones who are intolerant!

All I can do is request you to not make an absolute fool of yourself by supporting a move that is obviously racist and intolerant by presenting false comparisons. This is an obvious kick in the teeth of muslims of Switzerland who are as law abiding and as peacefull as any other Swiss person. Hence there is no reason for this public humiliation of the whole community. You should never hold these kinds of referendums in Europe ever. This brings out the worst in Europeans. The demons of their Facist past that they are unable to shed. This would be humble request and suggestion to all European governments~!

EDBYRONADAMS wrote:

"A survey of Muslim majority nations, including Saudi Arabia will demonstrate a general contempt for religious tolerance among Muslim majority populations and, in fact, their sacred text defines separate treatment for Muslims and non Muslims in courts of law and in taxation...."
*********************************************************
The use of the phrase "will demonstrate" means you are using prejudiced feelings and not any actual survey. YOU WANT TO EXPRESS YOUR FEELINGS as if you are reporting some actual survey.

A dialogue with such people is useless.

The Moslems have tried to conquer Europe and the West for nearly 1,300 years and have been rebuffed and defeated every time. This time, however, they are attempting to reach their goal by infiltration and fifth-column activities. The Moslems play on the political correctness of the European elites who are intent on ramming Moslem immigration down the throats of the Europeans. I am willing to bet good money that if a similar referendum were to be held in any other European country that is suffering Moslem mass immigration, the result would be overwhelmingly the same as in Switzerland. Of course, for this reason such referenda will never be allowed, even where they are legal, now that there is public proof of the Europeans' resentment at being invaded by third-world religious fanatics.

After having liberated ourselves from the ravages of religion in the form of the oppression by the Catholic church, the West is under a new onslaught of religion. This time the vectors for this infectious disease are the desert savages who bring their bloodthirsty Allah into our communities and demand respect and obedience to their primitivism. We have struggled for centuries to rid ourselves of our own homegrown religious nonsense. Are we now to accept a 500-year setback just because the Moslem immigrants want to stick their behinds in the air to please their "god," and who bellow their calls to prayer from the highest points in the land? Let them go back to the Moslem armpits they came from. I would, if I were a Moslem in Switzerland. I would go back to where I can stick my arse up in the air 50 times a day if I want to, and where the muezzins can scream at the top of their lungs from their minarets. I could live a life of Islamic joy to the greater glory of Allah. I could throw acid in girls' and women's faces as they came home from school, bury them in the sand and stone them, hang teenagers and gays from cranes, whip women for wearing pants, cut people's hands and heads off with swords, kill my own children for reasons of "honor," and in general brutalize and mutilate any infidel I came upon. In other words, I'd be HOME, SWEET HOME. And as we know, home is where the heart is.

"This article is about Switzerland and not Saudi Arabia. Why do you want to change the subject? Two wrongs can not produce one right."

The problem is that the Muslims expect to be welcomed with open arms in the West where they will outbreed the natives and form a democratic threat to the tolerance that they demand. A survey of Muslim majority nations, including Saudi Arabia will demonstrate a general contempt for religious tolerance among Muslim majority populations and, in fact, their sacred text defines separate treatment for Muslims and non Muslims in courts of law and in taxation.

Must the nations of tolerance have no defense against a demonstrably intolerant culture?

edbyronadams :

This article is about Switzerland and not Saudi Arabia. Why do you want to change the subject? Two wrongs can not produce one right.

Saudi Arabia is 100 per cent Muslim. Who is going to build a church there?

Posted by: yasseryousufi

"All I can say today is shame on you Switzerland. Your Democracy is no different from the Democracy of the Nazi's or those of the French who ban muslim girls from going to school if they cover their heads. You have all spoken with one voice against a largely peacefull, unprotected minority. This is where one has to question democracy as well because it allows the majority to effectively make its minority an outcast. The least one can hope if they continue with this ban is to relocate UN office of Human rights to a country which offers equality to all its citizens because thats the basis of all human rights."

How much condemnation do you place on the heads of the leadership of the House of Saud for banning missionaries from other faiths, any competing religious texts or icons from other religions? Are we to accept that Muslim majority nations are demonstrably more fascistic than Switzerland because that is a burden that tolerance places upon us while Muslims proceed unhindered? Muslims do spend a great deal of time examining the splinters in Europeans eyes while ignoring the beams in their own.

oracle2world:

The problem with your argument is that you identify (a) Muslims as a monolithic group and (b) you use the paradigm of GUILT BY ASSOCIATION to malign all Muslims.

Right now in Pakistan's troubled region suicide bombings are killing Muslims. So, religion might be used for some political agenda.

How many people in America or Europe came out on the street to protest the genocide of about 900,000 of Tutsis by Hutus in which priests and nuns used machettes to hack Hutus?

Why did not people come out on the street to protest when Catholics and Protestants terrorized one another for 4 centuries?

We can not pick and choose.

@oracle2world - You say good for the Swiss if they are tired of violent muslims? Apparently I missed the string of violent incidents in Switzerland carried out by Muslims.

Oh wait, no, there weren't any.

If the neo-NAZIs were to declare themselves a "religion", no one would have a problem banning their swastikas. Or suppressing them regardless of "freedom of religion". Same with the Church of Scientology. They are a dangerous cult and not protected by freedom of religion.

The piling on the Swiss is incredible.

When Islam starts with "kill all the infidels" as their central tenet and goes downhill from there, they are not protected. Nor are their symbols.

I don't think you will find a Star of David anywhere in the Muslim world. And Christians are not exactly welcomed either.

So "freedom of religion" extends only to those religions that renounce violence to achieve their goals. And tolerate other religions.

As soon as a religion (aka Islam) uses violence, jihad, suicide bombers, etc. to wipe out the competition ... there are no protections for them.

And if the Swiss are sick and tired of violent muslims -- good for them for kicking them out.

Tolerant countries that have welcomed muslims, have been shat on by muslims.

halozcel1 | :

The attacks on churches or synagogues can never be condoned nor can the ban on the building of minarets in mosques be justified. Both should be condemned.

The point is that when "some people" come out on the street to protest some thing and when "other people" do not come out on the street to protest for similar crimes is a sociological question.

I gave some examples as to why Christians or Jews did not come out on the street when Rev. Jim Jones led hundreds of his followers to suicide or Baruch Goldstein massacred innocent worshippers in Al Aqsa mosque. If one can raise the question "why Muslims did not protest on the street" is identical to ask as to why Christians or Jews did not protest on the street?

The Butterfly Effect or
Swiss Effect,

Although anyones dont agree,Swiss Effect may impact to Whole Europe,even World.
Swiss Effect will encourage Anti-Islam Movements in Europe.Honeymoon ends for Radical Muslims.In middle term,Harsh Clashes between Europeans and Radical Muslims are strongely possible.

Dear Panelist Hirschfield,
Swiss Effect may go too far in all over the world.Swiss Effect is the result of Aggressive Islam.
**Our Minarets are Our Bayonets**
Swiss Effect can cause Unimaginable Events.

Zebra4,
The samples you wrote can not be answer to *why there is no protest when muslims attack churches or burn synagogues*
-What is Correlation between Jim Jones case and burn synagogues ?
-What is Correlation between your samples and attack to churches ?

Yasser,Rutgers/New Jersey,
You say *less than 10 percent go to mosque*
Most of muslims in the world dont go to mosques indeed.
*They drink wine* Of course.
Most of muslim on the Earth drink Wine/Whisky/Vodka/Raki/Beer.Yes,absolutely.
Two months ago,I wrote *only 20 percent of muslims observe Ramadan Fasting* One poster critisized me for Minor Percentage.
I strongly repeat *Only and only 20-25 percent(perhaps less) of muslims observe Fasting and most of them do because of Fear and Oppression,not Willingly.
Briefly,majority of muslims are muslim just in name/nominal indeed.
*genocide(it's not correct word,massacre is right) conducted by the Serbs in Bosnia*
Dont forget,Muslim Libya and Qaddafi gave the weapons to Serbs,and Infidel Soldiers saved muslims.Will you not thank ?

Paganplace,
You visited a muslim country in this summer ? Would you write your Impressions...

And there is that "Carstonio" ID again!!! What arrogance to continually use multiple IDs violating blog rules!!!!

"Yep; certainly worth going to war over and nothing about these people concern me should they ever have the capability of building nuclear weapons"

Err.

'Should 'they' ever?'

In theory, nukes are not that hard, once you know the theory. This doesn't mean that any given immigrant a) wants to b) Has proper materials, and c) can do the engineering to make it actually *function.* Never mind in some basement.

You really think someone's *religion* is the safety catch here?

I see some world wide riots coming soon ala the cartoons of a few years ago. What??? No minarets!!!

Yep; certainly worth going to war over and nothing about these people concern me should they ever have the capability of building nuclear weapons. Yeah, right!!!

"I am apparently the only one who thinks that western countries are getting completely hoodwinked by Muslims."

My point about culture and ethnicity would apply the other way as well. It's difficult to tell how much of the hostility toward the West is religious and how much is political and cultural. For example, do many Muslim Arabs view Christianity as simply the religion of the colonialists who ruled many of their countries until recent decades, without really caring about theology? Do the Christian Arabs in places like Lebanon share that lingering anger at the West?

Hmmm, "Carstonio", where have we seen that ID/"face" before? Could it be one of the many IDs of our favorite imposter???

""I am apparently the only one who thinks that western countries are getting completely hoodwinked by Muslims. If there ever was a group that spent more time reassuring the host that it is all about love when its actions are the opposite, I have not seen it.""

Well, I can think of a certain other conspicuous example...

I am apparently the only one who thinks that western countries are getting completely hoodwinked by Muslims. If there ever was a group that spent more time reassuring the host that it is all about love when its actions are the opposite, I have not seen it. Moderate Christians do it - effectively excuse radical Christians, in effect shielding them from the searing criticism they deserve. Muslims do it to a much greater degree. As an earlier poster said, when Muslims allow churches in their countries...

""The homosexual keeps promoting the Lesbian's book, to no avail.

Posted by: zebra4 ""

Intriguing. Who is this 'homosexual' and where can I buy the 'lesbian's book?'

"Theres a sizeable number of Europeans who hate, absolutely hate anyone who doesn't look like them."

Good point. Whatever the faults or merits of Islam as a religion, and whatever the actions of Muslims, I suspect that the religion is being used as a proxy for a race-based notion of European cultural purity.

Hmmm, "Zebra4" returns yet again. Keep in mind that this is an anonymous blog and imposters abound.

With respect to protesters and how to deal with them, simply check the OT.

To wit:

Exodus 32: 3,000 Israelites killed by Moses for worshipping the golden calf.

Numbers 31: After killing all men, boys and married women among the Midianites, 32,000 virgins remain as booty for the Israelites. (If unmarried girls are a quarter of the population, then 96,000 people were killed.)

Joshua:

Joshua 8: 12,000 men and women, all the people of Ai, killed.

Joshua 10: Joshua completely destroys Gibeon ("larger than Ai"), Makeddah, Libnah, Lachish, Eglon, Hebron, Debir. "He left no survivors."

Joshua 11: Hazor destroyed. [Paul Johnson, A History of the Jews (1987), estimates the population of Hazor at ?> 50,000]
TOTAL: if Ai is average, 12,000 x 9 = 108,000 killed.

Judges 1: 10,000 Canaanites k. at Battle of Bezek. Jerusalem and Zephath destroyed.

Judges 3: ca. 10,000 Moabites k. at Jordan River.

Judges 8: 120,000 Midianite soldiers k. by Gideon

Judges 20: Benjamin attacked by other tribes. 25,000 killed.

1 Samuel 4: 4,000 Isrealites killed at 1st Battle of Ebenezer/Aphek. 30,000 Isr. k. at 2nd battle.

David:

2 Samuel 8: 22,000 Arameans of Damascus and 18,000 Edomites killed in 2 battles.

2 Samuel 10: 40,000 Aramean footsoldiers and 7,000 charioteers killed at Helam.

2 Samuel 18: 20,000 Israelites under Absalom killed at Ephraim.

1 Kings 20: 100,000 Arameans killed by Israelites at Battle of Aphek. Another 27,000 killed by collapsing wall.

2 Chron 13: Judah beat Israel and inflicted 500,000 casualties.

2 Chron 25: Amaziah, king of Judah, k. 10,000 from Seir in battle and executed 10,000 POWs. Discharged Judean soldiers pillaged and killed 3,000.

2 Chron 28: Pekah, king of Israel, slew 120,000 Judeans

One must never forget that Fascism is the baby of of Europe. Europeans have an amazing taste for acceptance of hate speech directed towards its minorities. One would have hoped that after committing genocides against Jews and Muslims in Germany and Yugoslavia Europeans would have learnt a lesson or two.

This referendum should put those doubters in place I guess. Its obvious why there's an undercurrent of racism forever lurking around in Europe. Theres a sizeable number of Europeans who hate, absolutely hate anyone who doesnt look like them. Switzerland is supposed to be the most tolerant of European countries. Of the 300,000 muslims living in Switzerland less than 10% actually ever go to a mosque. They are mostly people who escaped the genocide conducted by the Serbs in Bosnia. Most of them are muslim just in name. They are as much assimilated as you can get. They drink wine. Dont coverup, prolly eat pork too. Yet the Swiss are worried that 4 Minarets on a total of 4 mosques are somehow signs of Islam's domination!! I just saw TV reports that those mosques are now being vandalized by Swiss youths with that usual tasteless joke of throwing pigs blood and pigs heads in the mosques. Plus they're out with those loudspeakers making fun of the azaan by imitating the call to prayer. All this obviously being done to elicit a response from the muslims there.

All I can say today is shame on you Switzerland. Your Democracy is no different from the Democracy of the Nazi's or those of the French who ban muslim girls from going to school if they cover their heads. You have all spoken with one voice against a largely peacefull, unprotected minority. This is where one has to question democracy as well because it allows the majority to effectively make its minority an outcast. The least one can hope if they continue with this ban is to relocate UN office of Human rights to a country which offers equality to all its citizens because thats the basis of all human rights.

"Why, if Muslims can take to the streets by the millions when an offensive cartoon is published or teddy bear is named Muhammad, is there no public protest against these actions? Why if Muslims could protest offensive laws banning minarets, head scarves, or other such repressive measures, is their no protest when Muslims attack churches, or burn synagogues in the name of Islam?"
****************************************************
Although there were a number of street demonstrations and even some violence after the Viet Nam war prolonged in America, I never read any stories of people coming out on the street when:

(1) Rev. Jim Jones of Jonestown murdered Congressman Ryan and then led his hundreds of followers to suicide? Why?

(2) When Army of God fanatics bombed numerous abortion clinics in America--all in the name of Jesus? Why?

(3) when just merely half a century ago, Blacks were lynched by mobs in Mississippi? Why?

(3) When Catholics and Protestants were terrorizing one another for four centuries? Why?

(4)When Catholic priests and nuns participated in killing of Tutsis on behalf of Hutus in Rwanda? About 900,000 people were victims of genocide there. Why were there were no street demonstrations?

(5) Why were there no street demonstrations in Israel when Baruch Goldstein killed innocent unarmed worshippers in Al-Aqsa mosque.

The list is very long.

The sociological question is: WHEN PEOPLE GO OT ON THE STREET AGAINST SOME THING AND WHEN THEY DO NOT?

What else do minarets bring to mind:

Ayaan Hirsi Ali's autobiography, "Infidel".

"Thus begins the extraordinary story of a woman born into a family of desert nomads, circumcised as a child, educated by radical imams in Kenya and Saudi Arabia, taught to believe that if she uncovered her hair, terrible tragedies would ensue. It's a story that, with a few different twists, really could have led to a wretched life and a lonely death, as her grandmother warned. But instead, Hirsi Ali escaped -- and transformed herself into an internationally renowned spokeswoman for the rights of Muslim women."
ref: Washington Post book review.

four excerpts:

p. 47 paperback issue:

"Some of the Saudi women in our neighborhood were regularly beaten by their husbands. You could hear them at night. Their screams resounded across the courtyards. "No! Please! By Allah!"

p.68:

"The Pakistanis were Muslims but they too had castes. The Untouchable girls, both Indian and Pakistani were darker skin. The others would not play with them because they were untouchable. We thought that was funny because of course they were touchable: we touched them see? but also horrifying to think of yourself as untouchable, despicable to the human race."

p.309

"Between October 2004 and May 2005, eleven Muslim girls were killed by their families in just two regions (there are 20 regions in Holland). After that, people stopped telling me I was exaggerating."

p. 347

"The kind on thinking I saw in Saudi Arabia and among the Brotherhood of Kenya and Somalia, is incompatible with human rights and liberal values. It preserves the feudal mind-set based on tribal concepts of honor and shame. It rests on self-deception, hyprocricy, and double standards. It relies on the technologial advances of the West while pretending to ignore their origin in Western thinking. This mind-set makes the transition to modernity very painful for all who practice Islam".

And yes, as per her book, Ms. Ali lied on her visa applications because that is the only way she could escape the tyranny and threats on her life.

"What today's minarets bring to mind:"

*Your* mind, or whatever you call it, CCNL.

And here I was thinking if I stepped back a while, you'd get bored.

What today's minarets bring to mind:

1a) 179 killed in Mumbai/Bombay, 290 injured

1b) Assassination of Benazir Bhutto and Theo Van Gogh

2) 9/11, 3000 mostly US citizens, 1000’s injured

3) The 24/7 Sunni-Shiite centuries-old blood feud currently being carried out in Iraq, US Troops, 3,476 killed in combat, 890 in non-combat roles, 94,231 – 102,820 Iraqi civilians killed, http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ and
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/casualty.pdf

4) Kenya- In Nairobi, about 212 people were killed and an estimated 4000 injured; in Dar es Salaam, the attack killed at least 11 and wounded 85.[2]

5) Bali-in 2002-killing 202 people, 164 of whom were foreign nationals, and 38 Indonesian citizens. A further 209 people were injured.

6) Bali in 2005- Twenty people were killed, and 129 people were injured by three bombers who killed themselves in the attacks.

7) Spain in 2004- killing 191 people and wounding 2,050.

8) UK in 2005- The bombings killed 52 commuters and the four radical Islamic suicide bombers, injured 700.

9) The execution of an eloping couple in Afghanistan on 04/15/2009 by the Taliban.

10) Operation Enduring Freedom in Afghanistan: US troops killed in action 650, 192killed in non-combat situations as of 10/20/09

11) The killing of 13 citizen soldiers at Ft. Hood by a follower of the koran.

When I first heard about this story, I was really expecting to find a lot of rationalization about it being about zoning and architectural identity in Switzerland. Instead I found it was pretty brazenly promoted based on fear-and-hate-mongering.

So I have little sympathy.

Now, I don't think I'd appreciate some taped call to prayer blaring out of minarets all day any more than I particularly appreciate the same from simulated churchbells in residential neighborhoods, but before I saw the tone of this debate reflected in how it's being carried out, I thought I had a good compromise:

Namely, did anyone say a minaret couldn't look 'Swiss?' I think it'd both express a desire to be part of the community and be more comfortable to those who've been living there a while.

My position is, as soon as Christians are allowed to build churches and cathedrals in Saudi Arabia, then Muslims should be allowed to build mosques in European or Western Hemisphere countries, but not until then.

Here is a simple solution that would allow for the minarets and would also keep them from causing an undue impact in the visual aesthetics of the country as a whole: restrict the height of any new minaret to around 30 feet or less and require them to be a certain distance from the next nearest one.
I agree with the previous comment about signage control we have here in the U.S.. We do not regulate billboards because we "hate" the companies that advertise on them. We regulate them for simple aesthetic purposes. No one likes the idea of an American landscape where advertisements are the main feature. The U.S. even regulates the height and construction of steeples on churches here in the U.S..
Similarly, a landscape punctuated with towering religious symbols is not what the Swiss people want for their country.
The idea that other countries would interfere with a democratic process that has demonstrated the will of the populace of a country in a matter that only concerns that country internally amazes me. Especially considering that, had a similar majority result occurred here in the U.S., we would not tolerate outside interference in that process for even one second.
A restriction on minarets does not keep any Muslim from practicing their faith nor does it infringe on any religious "right". At some point, we've got to stop drinking all this Koolaid people!

"when people claim membership in a global community, they do share a measure of responsibility."

Really!

Let's start with the US killings of over half a million children in Iraq from easily prevented diseases as a result of "UN" sanctions.

Then let's continue with the 3 US bombings of the Red Cross in Kabul and the bombings of Afghani wedding parties by airborne cowards from 60,000 feet up.

Let's prosecute those behind the Predator drone attacks on civilian populations, the concentration camps at Guanatanamo, Bagram and Abu Ghraib.

When I see Clinton, Bush and Obama imprisoned for life for their numerous war crimes and their crimes against humanity - or when at least I see serious and vigorous calls to do so from the majority of Americans - THEN I will start to take seriously assertions that "when people claim membership in a global community, they do share a measure of responsibility." Until then, chill.

There is also a larger question brought into the discussion of minarets. If you pride yourself on a culture of openness and tolerance, must it be defenseless? When and what portions of your own culture are sacrosanct to defend against the inroads of an intolerant culture?

This applies directly to Islam and the the fate of minority religionists in countries in which Islam is the majority. This discussion is appropriate because Muslims oppress their women. Women without the freedom to control their own birth rate give rise to more babies and more babies can grow up to overwhelm a tolerant and democratic form of government.

It is a difficult problem facing many European societies and goes way beyond minarets and head scarves.

Many communities in the US strictly control commercial signage. Often this is done in an effort to control the visual signature of a tourist destination. I fail to see a significant difference between these types of regulations and the ban on minarets in Switzerland. When one imagines the archetype of a Swiss image into the mind, minarets don't fit in.

The ban on them could be a simple commercial objection. While I would not deny anti-Islamic feeling as a motivator for the vote, I would not ascribe all of it to that source.