The good news is that prayer doesn't work.

The bad news is that there are some out there in the lunatic fringe who will try to give it a helping hand.

Religion is toxic - it's time we got over stupid bronze-age superstition.

Our War on Terror and Aggression:

An update (or how we are spending or how we have spent the USA taxpayers’ money to eliminate global terror and aggression)

The terror and aggression via a Partial and Recent Body Count

1a) 179 killed in Mumbai/Bombay, 290 injured

1b) Assassination of Benazir Bhutto and Theo Van Gogh

2) 9/11, 3000 mostly US citizens, 1000’s injured

3) The 24/7 Sunni-Shiite centuries-old blood feud currently being carried out in Iraq, US Troops, 3,476 killed in combat, 890 in non-combat roles, 94,231 – 102,820 Iraqi civilians killed, http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ and
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/casualty.pdf

4) Kenya- In Nairobi, about 212 people were killed and an estimated 4000 injured; in Dar es Salaam, the attack killed at least 11 and wounded 85.[2]

5) Bali-in 2002-killing 202 people, 164 of whom were foreign nationals, and 38 Indonesian citizens. A further 209 people were injured.

6) Bali in 2005- Twenty people were killed, and 129 people were injured by three bombers who killed themselves in the attacks.

7) Spain in 2004- killing 191 people and wounding 2,050.

8) UK in 2005- The bombings killed 52 commuters and the four radical Islamic suicide bombers, injured 700.

9) The execution of an eloping couple in Afghanistan on 04/15/2009 by the Taliban.

10) Operation Enduring Freedom in Afghanistan: US troops killed in action 650, 192killed in non-combat situations as of 10/20/09

11) The killing of 13 citizen soldiers at Ft. Hood by a follower of the koran.

continued below:

Other elements of our War on Terror and Aggression:

- Saddam, his sons and major henchmen have been deleted. Saddam's bravado about WMD was one of his major mistakes.

- Iran is being been contained. (beside containing the Sunni-Shiite civil war in Baghdad, that is the main reason we are in Iraq. And yes, essential oil continues to flow from the region.)

- Libya has become almost civil. Recently Libya agreed to pay $1.5 billion to the victims of their terrorist activities Apparently this new reality from an Islamic country has upset OBL and his “crazies” as they have threatened Libya. OBL sure is a disgrace to the world especially the Moslem world!!! Or is he???

- North Korea is still uncivil but is contained. With the opening up of rail traffic between North and South Korea after 50 years and with the assistance of the US Navy in retrieving NK ships and personnel hopefully a fresh sense of civility is afoot.

- North Korea was taken off the terrorist country list recently.

- Northern Ireland is finally at peace.

- The Jews and Palestinians are being separated by walls. Hopefully the walls will follow the 1948 UN accords. Unfortunately the Annapolis Peace Conference was not successful. Unfortunately the recent events in Gaza has put this situation back to “square one”. And this significant stupidity is driven by the mythical foundations of both religions!!!

- Bin Laden has been cornered under a rock in Western Pakistan since 9/11.

- Fanatical Islam has basically been contained to the Middle East but a wall between India and Pakistan would be a plus for world peace. Ditto for a wall between Afghanhistan and Pakistan.

- Timothy McVeigh was executed. Terry Nichols will follow soon.

- Eric Rudolph is spending three life terms in prison with no parole.

- Jim Jones, David Koresh, Kaczynski, the "nuns" from Rwanda, and the KKK were all dealt with and either eliminated themselves or are being punished.

- Islamic Sudan, Darfur and Somalia are still terror hot spots.

- The terror and torture of Muslims in Bosnia, Kosovo and Kuwait were ended by the proper application of the military forces of the USA and her freedom-loving friends. Radovan Karadzic was finally captured on 7/23/08 and is charged with genocide, crimes against humanity and violations of the law of war -- charges related to the 1992-1995 civil war that followed Bosnia-Herzegovina's secession from Yugoslavia.

- And of course the bloody terror brought about the Japanese, Nazis and Communists was with great difficulty eliminated by the good guys.

New blog post: Death Threat In Psalm 109:8?

http://obamaprayers.blogspot.com/2009/11/death-threat-in-psalm-1098.html

"...but for you to try an equate the "Psalm 109" blog "prayers" of a few nuts with the pervasive hatred of the "infidel" so prevalent in Muslim-majority countries is ludicrous."
Posted by: EddietheInfidel

EddietheInfidel,

Perhaps Dr. George Tiller, Allen Berg or Matthew Shepherd might disagree with you. In case these names draw a bank, Dr. Tiller, an abortion provider of last resort, was gunned down in his church
by a man claiming Christianity as his belief. Allen Berg was a Jewish, somewhat leftist talk-show host in Denver, who was shot by a Christian Militia-type group called The Order. They also robbed a bunch of armored cars, to fund their "revolution" in which Christian white people would remove by force anyone not white enough or Christian enough from the northwest part of the U.S. Matthew Shepherd was beaten and crucified by a gang of young, Christian men, upset at his homosexuality. While no one knows if religion was a significant motivator for them, many Christian commentators have expressed understanding of their actions.

I agree with you that Islam presents more of a threat right now than Christianity, principally because Muslims in general are more fanatical about their faith. I think this is in part made possible by the blending of church and state that is the rule in the middle-east. However, many conservative Christians either seem to want to see that same blending here, or are pretending that it already exists. How much more of a danger, I wonder, would Christians represent, if they get their way?

It's also not the probability of action that troubles me. It's the very idea that some (mostly) conservative Christians are so upset that they don't seem to have "one of their own" in charge that they would pray for that duly-elected leader to die. That they have become so incapable of sharing power in true democratic fashion that if an "outsider" is in power, he must be seen as "evil." They have come to believe that any idea he has must, by definition, be "evil," because he is not "one of them." And "evil" must be destroyed. That is not in keeping with the nature of a democratic republic. It's not even rational. That irrationality worries me. I feel it threatens the long-term stability of our nation much more than any terrorist group, no matter how nefarious, could. A terrorist strike, no matter how awful, in the end, would only bring us together. These beliefs are tearing us apart at the seams.

Also, please don't forget, the second-most deadly terrorist attack on American soil was performed by conservative Christians, Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols.

Mr. Hirschfield, I think that your concern over Psalm 109 is pretty much unfounded. Though a few in the fringe might cite this and other Old Testament passages in blog "prayers", I highly doubt that any mainstream Christians (or Jews, for that matter) would seriously view them as a call to violent action against others.

Most of the Old Testament texts can be and are viewed in a strictly historical context by most adherents of Christianity and Judaism. The New Testament of Christ abrogates much of the violence promoted in the earlier texts.

Islam, however, poses a different problem. The "gates of ijtihad", the critical discussion of Islamic teachings as originally presented in the Koran, Hadith and Sunnah, were closed in the 10th century. As such, no further reform or discussion regarding the interpretations of these texts is allowed by mainstream Islamic leaders, so their interpretations remain mired in dark-age Saudi Arabian social norms. Unfortunately, this attitude is reflected in modern Muslim-majority societies that embrace Sharia legal systems that oppress women and non-Muslim minorities.

I am admittedly a failed Catholic and an atheist, so I concede that my opinion is worth little in a religious discussion, but for you to try an equate the "Psalm 109" blog "prayers" of a few nuts with the pervasive hatred of the "infidel" so prevalent in Muslim-majority countries is ludicrous.

Settle down Brad. I said "no" a long time ago when I realized that faith is for fat-heads. And it didn't hurt a bit. In fact it felt great.

Push God out of the way and a wonderful reality reveals itself; more magical and mysterious than ever without the childish fantasy of a SkyGod blocking the view and preventing the mind from exploring all other possibilities.

fr vote-sarah:

>Hear Ye Hear Ye ...<

Hear YE, quit spamming the board! You've been reported as SPAM.

Spam is extremely annoying and shows a huge lack of manners.

top google search:
"8May his days be few, may another take over his position. 9May his children be orphans and his wife a widow". "

omg. have they no low point?

Bobrebl said,
"I'm sure the person or persons who thought this up had no idea of the message of the entire Psalm."

i don't know about that. i think anyone who can recall that verse is pretty familiar with the bible. and when checking to make sure you got it right, wouldn't anyone read the very next verse? kinda to see where the "good stuff" ends?

there are a lot of right-wing religious people who see obama as ushering in some kind of apocalyptic "end of america as we know it". they're scared.

psalm 51 is my personal favorite

arminius3142,

Thank you for the compliment, arminius3142, and the support. I don't know if this trend for demonizing political opponents is new, or if we've always been this vicious (and I've just been too wrapped up in my own life to notice) but it really seems to be reaching a point-of-no-return. We need to remember how to be civil to each other, and to respect the rights of civil folks to disagree with each other, or we may see a truly uncivil civil war.

Once again, look who wrote the Psalms, the same Jewish scribes who invented Abraham, Noah and Moses. So why should anyone put credence in the OT Psalms which said scribes borrowed from those in their past and present neighborhoods e.g. the Greeks, Hittites, Babylonians and Egyptians??????
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"If we can't just learn to disagree, and accept disagreements amongst ourselves, without resorting to calling each other "evil," without attacking each other, without praying for each other to die, (Wow, how creepy is that!) we might just self-distruct, as a nation. I think that's what would be evil. How about you?

Well said, Gimpi, well said. A pity more here cannot agree.

"I oppose most of what President Obama is doing, or trying to do - some of which I believe to be outright evil, in the strongest sense of the word."
Posted by Ryan Haber/withouthavingseen

Ryan, what evil are you talking about? Trying to see that more Americans can get care if they get sick? Acting to ameliorate the worst recession in over 70 years, caused at least in part by financial irresponsibility of the last administration? Taking the problems we are generating in the global environment seriously? Working to rebuild our international reputation, damaged, again, by the last administration? That's "most of what President Obama is doing or trying to do." Really? Evil?

Let's be honest here. This is about political parties, not good verses evil. You were more comfortable with a Republican in charge, probably based on social issues. Fine. I'm more comfortable with a Democrat in charge, for much the same reasons. I'm not "evil." You're not "evil." We just see things differently. To quote the old song: "There ain't no good guys, there ain't no bad guys. There's only you and me, and we just disagree."

If we can't just learn to disagree, and accept disagreements amongst ourselves, without resorting to calling each other "evil," without attacking each other, without praying for each other to die, (Wow, how creepy is that!) we might just self-distruct, as a nation. I think that's what would be evil. How about you?

Maybe, MAYBE, if the slogan included both versus 8 and 9 I would agree that we have something here to be concerned about. It doesn't and we don't.
Someone has simply come up with a clever way of promoting the fact that they don't like Obama's job as president so far.
I'm sure the person or persons who thought this up had no idea of the message of the entire Psalm.
This is just another example of the lack of substantive discussion of religion and politics going on in this country today.

Hmmm, "ivri91208"??? Have not seen that ID for awhile. Again be aware that this basically is an anonymous blog and imposters abound. "ivri5678" and "ivri#" are variations of the same theme.

Once again, look who wrote the Psalms, the same Jewish scribes who invented Abraham, Noah and Moses. So why should anyone put credence in the OT Psalms which said scribes borrowed from those in their past and present neighborhoods e.g. the Greeks, Hittites, Babylonians and Egyptians??????

Hmmm, "ivri91208"??? Have not seen that ID for awhile. Again be aware that this basically an anonymous blog and imposters abound. "ivri5678" and "ivri#" are variations of the same theme.

If you're someone who truly believes that God can do anything asked in his name and if you truly believe that another person is truly, irretrievably and pathologically evil why *wouldn't* you ask God to end their existence? You needn't pray that they be made to suffer or anything -- just that their lives be ended.

People pray all the time for a merciful end for a loved one suffering from an incurable, terminal disease. What's wrong then in praying for a merciful end to the life of a truly evil person?

I am really not getting why some religious people will pray fervently for the strength to endure the evil inflicted by another, but draw the line at asking God to end it.

Ryan Haber:

President Obama personally immature? Compared to George W, he's overflowing with maturity.

I agree wholeheartedly with Rabbi Hirschfield's thesis, i.e., that people of any faith who call upon God to destroy their enemies have good reason to question whether they are truly religious.

I am an evangelical Christian who strongly opposes a good bit of President Obama's aims and, yet, like Ryan Haber whose comment is below, I have never heard a fellow Christ-follower wish for his death, nor have I myself prayed for it. Jesus commanded in the Sermon on the Mount that one should pray for and love his enemies. I disagree with Obama, yet I love and respect him, as Paul also commanded ("be in subjection to the governing authortiies," Rom 13:1-4).

It is important to understand that Christians who have prayed for Obama's death are, at least, guilty of misunderstanding the Scriptures, and at worst not Christians at all, for Jesus said that his true followers will be known not by a particular belief set or worldview, but rather by their actions. I will even go a step further and argue that, for the most part, religion itself is not inherently evil, contrary to current thought, but that most abuses of religion occur because of an over-emphasis on one particular element of a sacred text (i.e. Psalm 109) while de-emphasizing others (i.e., Ezekiel 33:11, "I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that he should turn and live"). Solid interpretation of Scripture, part of which involves reading the "part" in light of the "whole," rarely leads to such behavior.

Finally, as academia and the media continue to link violence with religion, the danger is that all religion is thought to be violent. Such reasoning is guilty of the fallacy of taking what is true of a part and making it true of the whole. One simply cannot argue from the violence of particular religious adherents to the inherent violent nature of religion itself.

Hello withouthavingseen,

I have to admit being well out of my depth when contemplating your comment:

"I oppose most of what President Obama is doing, or trying to do - some of which I believe to be outright evil, in the strongest sense of the word. I think that he is a liar, and personally immature."

I just do not get how you and those of similarly foreign beliefs could consider Obama and his actions as "evil, in the strongest sense of the word."

There are those that claim he is the Antichrist, a Muslim, a terrorist, Satans Spawn, as well as promoting a "culture of death", and seeking to murder the old and infirm.

Who is it that comes up with THESE lies? Who is it that actually BELIEVES these lies?

Right wing liars.

Right wing believers.

I have no problem with the essence of "Conservatism", but for me it does not co-exist with hypocrisy or the creation of slanderous lies. That is the realm of extremism, of which we have far too much in this country.

We complain, (and bomb to tiny little pieces, given a half chance and a semblance of faith that we won't get hurt in the process!), about the religious extremism of Islam. Yet here we have plenty of religious extremism, of the 'Christian' kind, and some of us think that is just dandy.

I am at a loss sometimes to comprehend what goes on in a religious extremists brain.

Rabbi Hirschfield,

I oppose most of what President Obama is doing, or trying to do - some of which I believe to be outright evil, in the strongest sense of the word. I think that he is a liar, and personally immature.

That said, it strikes me as uncharitable to wish him dead - to put it mildly. At my parish, we frequently pray that our civil leaders have wisdom, or be converted to know Christ... but I can honestly never recall anyone praying for him to die... you might be gratified to know.

yours,
Ryan Haber
Kensington, Maryland

The challenge for Rabbi Hirschfield is more in explaining away why a prayer for someone's death should be in his founding documents at all. It is the sort of challenge that Muslims must find in a text that proscribes the length of rod used for beating women.

Benedictio Sclopetorum, & Bombardarum, fiat ex supradicta benedictione armorum mutatis mutandis, & aspergantur aqua benedicta. Benedictio Pulveris tormentarii, seu jaculatorii; item Globorum plumbeorum, vel ferreorum, conjunctim vel divisim.

"There is no place for such prayers in any of our faiths..." -- Brad Hirschfield

Psalm 109 is just a tiny bit of a book that details countless times that God crushed, smote and slew the enemies of his people at their request. Face it -- the Abrahamic religions are plumb ate up with it.

Once again, look who wrote the Psalms, the same Jewish scribes who invented Abraham, Noah and Moses. So why should anyone put credence in the OT Psalms which said scribes borrowed from those in their past and present neighborhoods e.g. the Greeks, Hittites, Babylonians and Egyptians??????