Seems like a lot of folks here are propagating their religious groups in a thread claiming that Americans are increasingly unattached to religious groups.

BRAD HIRSCHFIELD

I was wondering what happened to all of the posts that are missing, do you know?

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Oh, Goddess, DD, it can't fail to be, at this point, can it?

Do not miss this Spring. It's not to be missed. :)

MM Paganplace! I'm aware of the trollery, but I couldn't resist! And if I don't post anything on here between now and next week, Happy Ostara to you!

Though, again.

"And the list goes on and on for small groups of pagans who represent 0.1-0.9% of the American population."

You do realize that however 'small' you think it suits you to claim my people are... well,

You do realize we're still talking about *upwards of a million Americans,* here?

That's a *lot* of families.

Dude.

Btw, Dragon, this *is* a troll we're talking to, I just bounce off him rhetorically a lot. :)

And, MM! :)

CCNL, a lot of us Wiccans and Pagans grew up with Christianity, and we never fit in with it. Having seen how so many of its followers take that our-religion-is-right-and-everybody-else's-is-wrong mentality, the last thing we'd ever do is even THINK about proselytizing/evangelizing to anybody! At the very least, it's extremely rude, and at worst, it's the religious equivalent to practicing medicine on someone without their consent! We're not trying to take over at all-we just want the freedom to practice our religion and be open about it, the same as everybody else, without any backlash from anyone! Freedom of religion means ANY religion, remember?

"Well then which of the following pagan groups should we watch as they take over the belief system of America??"

I know it's kind of a foreign concept to you, 'Concerned Christian Now Liberated,' but it's actually quite possible to have a full religious (or even rationalistic) life that isn't the least bit concerned with 'taking over' *anything.*

You really that *vain* that you think I want to 'take over' whatever *your* headspace is? Gods. Reality check.

"Finally, we have confirmation that modern Paganism is continuing to grow. The (Pew) study found that 0.4 percent of Americans adhere to a “New Age” religion, broken down into “Pagan”, “Wiccan”, and “Other”.

These figures don’t include those who described themselves as “eclectic”, “spiritual but not religious”, “other liberal faith groups”, or members of CUUPs who identified themselves primarily as Unitarian Universalists. Working then with the idea then that (at least) 0.4 percent of Americans are modern Pagans (according to the study), that means there are at least 1.2 million Pagans of one variety or another in America.

Well then which of the following pagan groups should we watch as they take over the belief system of America??:

Women of Wisdom Foundation
-
British Columbia Witchcamp Community - the long-running B.C. Witchcamp and its sister gatherings, Queercamp and Sappho Camp, facilitated by Ruth Barrett.

Children of the Circle -

Aquarian Tabernacle Church.
.
Connect DC -

Coven of the Burning Waters -

Coven of the Whispering Oak -
.
Crossroads -

Ecclesia Ordinis Caelestis Templum Olympicus

Evergreen Tradition -

Global Goddess -

Guardians of the Ancient Nile Coven -
-

Healing Today -

Jack-O-Witch -

Live Oak Local Council -

Loxley Abbey Church- Raleigh, NC
-
Nemeton, Boston University Student Alliance
-.
Carolina Piedmont Church of Wicca -

- Pantheon Temple of Connecticut -

Sanctuary of the Crescent Moon

The Sisterhood of Avalon -

Spiral Grove -

Teen Witches of Albuquerque -

Temple of Mystical Faiths -

Temple of the Sacred Flame

-Triple Spiral Nest of the Church of All Worlds - .
Universal Life Church of Paganism, Pittsburgh -

Tylwyth Teg -

And the list goes on and on for small groups of pagans who represent 0.1-0.9% of the American population.

One day all will know that God Is.

One day all will be thankful that God Is a Being of Pure Love.

One day all will be thankful that God came up with His Plan.

God's Plan will come to Fruition, the Plan that He has had since before Creation and which is unfolding before our very eyes.

satan, besides being a liar and a thief, is a loser, a sore loser.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

" edbyronadams

"Why would you take up a faith and then decide either the original prophet or his subsequent interpreters were dunderheads? Wouldn't that be the end of faith?"

I thought *your* faith was about the ultimate God becoming human... Miss the dunderhead bit, and you just haven't taken the tour. :)

Why would you accept a faith and then come to think that the prophet or his subsequent interpreters were dunderheads? Wouldn't that be the end of faith?

Cafeteria catholicism(in the generic sense) is either full of pride or sloth.

Why would you take up a faith and then decide either the original prophet or his subsequent interpreters were dunderheads? Wouldn't that be the end of faith?

Cafeteria catholocism (in the generic sense) is a sign of excessive pride or sloth.

"DEEP DOWN you know there is a creator,but you deny that truth. "

Maybe, deep down, you know that any such being wouldn't be as blind and petty as some institutions demand, while in effect advocating for bad economic, military, social, and environmental policies.

Of course, in my religion, we have certain ceremonies relating to bringing the Moon to *us,* and that's without even having a hard time about Kepler. :)

colinnicholas-

Tell me , oh wise one, How are you going to stop us evil religionists from telling the truth about the gospel of Jesus Christ to our kids? I'd love to know your irrational answer....

You said that science got us to the moon. Well, God put the universe in motion, my friend, and science explains how this materiality works in it many complex ways. What people do with their choices on this earth(and loving others and God are the two most important commandments) can be blamed on their own self-delusion, lust, hatred, and lack of compassion for fellow human kind. Just because they use religion as their method does not mean that God does not exist.

Yes, Deep down I know the truth. Jesus is real. He died for you and me. And he lives , he lives indeed.

DEEP DOWN you know there is a creator,but you deny that truth.

A few days ago the Post made a big deal out of the new Trinity College survey. I wonder what effect the baby boom "echo" is having here? It should come as no surprise that many young people begin to question their parents' values. With at least 76% indentifying themselves as "Christians" it's hard to really conclude that faith in the US is somehow eroding significantly.

I think, actually, there's a sign of progress where a lot of people are rejecting the notion that 'Faith' is actually as billed by certain institutions: namely, as the same thing as 'Believing really hard in an authority.'

Equating a search for meaning in one’s life (Personal Spiritual actions) with Faith (a blind or "Gut" acceptance of someone else's dogma) are hardly the same and certainly reflect at best a rejection of the messianic traditions of the Abrahamic cults. One can assume as we move away from the recurring craziness of the millennium passing; these cults will subsume into the background of community social gatherings. The Christian Coalition founders will die and their followers will drift into new confidence schemes. Israel will lose some crucial battle and once again we will have a new diasporas of the survivors with an accompanying despair and decrease in the Jewish cult. Even the Muslim cultures will retreat as the basis for their wealth diminishes, their societies deal with modern realties, and cultural diversity fragments their religious comity.
The Armageddon aspects of Global Environmental stresses and the emerging population may provide a revival in religion as people desperately seek relief from increasingly difficult ability to survive!

I mean, seriously, CCNL, maybe you think 'repetition is a good teaching tool,' but if you pull something out your behind and repeat it to yourself, regardless of the fact you're clearly *wrong* in your thesis, (ie, the assertion Paganism's been diminishing cause of what you say, when in fact the survey you quote says otherwise.)

Well, I see nothing 'liberated' about your thought process at *all.*

"Hmmm, with the pagan population being only 0.1% of the total USA populace, we should really care???"

Actually, that's not the numbers to begin with. Under 'New Religious movements' reporting, .9 in 2004, and you left out the 1.4 as of 2008, (deceptive, much?) There's more of us than Muslims, same number as Jews, and you care about *them* an awful lot.

Are you really saying that a 'couple million people' are really such no-accounts to you? Fine. Stop harping on your juvenile misinterpretations and trollings.

Am I the only one who found it slightly humorous that the argument of "Don't trust statistics!" was defended with...a survey?

How can you have a religious organization without hierarchy? Once you have a hierarchy who gets to interpret the texts upon which your religion is based? There is a great inherent struggle between democratization of spirituality and keeping strains of doctrine true to the foundation of the organization. There is no fundamental problem with DIY sacred text interpretation except hubris, the idea that any person is superior to the long line of thinkers that have interpreted the texts before you come to them.

It also leads to a lazy spirituality in which interpretations that do not fit with desires are easily ignored.

Religions in the United States,
(self-identification, ARIS)

1990 2001 2004

Christianity 151,225,000 159,030,000 224,437,959 76.5% +5% (change)
Secular 13,116,000 27,539,000 38,865,604
13.2% +110%
Judaism 3,137,000 2,831,000 3,995,371
1.3% -10%
Islam 527,000 1,104,000 1,558,068
0.5% +109%
Buddhism 401,000 1,082,000 1,527,019
0.5% +170%
Agnostic 1,186,000 991,000 1,398,592
0.5% -16%
Atheist 902,000 1,272,986
0.4%
Hinduism 227,000 766,000 1,081,051
0.4% +237%
Unitarian 502,000 629,000 887,703
0.3% +25%
Wiccan/Pagan/Druid 307,000 433,267
0.1%

Hmmm, with the pagan population being only 0.1% of the total USA populace, we should really care???

As has been said lately;

Science flies people to the moon. Religion flies people into buildings.

9/11 made atheists of millions of us.

Actually, in the paying attention department:

" sux123
"I would assume that those that said they have "no religion" means that they do not have faith or believe in God, bu the survey is a bit vague."

Actually, that's a bad assumption, and the survey *isn't* so vague on this point. Under the category 'No Religion' are those who call themselves atheists and agnostics. It refers to not affiliating themselves with a partcular religion. (As for what they say: of course, there are a lot of non-believers and other-believers who have to use mainstream religions for cover, especially as religious demands have become more of a factor in government and business life: many are disaffected with religious type beliefs, many are simply disaffected with religions.)

" I believe the numbers of non-believers is far higher than reported because of teh stigma in this country of not professing a belief in a God or Gods. "

I assure you there's little to no social privilege with these types if it's multiple Gods you believe in. Frankly, most book-religions don't know whether to mock and ridicule us or panic and witch-hunt. Most seem to settle for trying to do both at the same time and look *really* silly.

Not that certain squeaky wheels in the atheist movement don't tend to annoy *us* as well, when you decide to lump *our* religions in with certain others, for things we don't actually do or believe.

To us, most of *these* kinds of 'atheists' are just 'disbelieving monotheists' to us, just as a lot of 'Satanist' types are just Christians who picked the other 'side'... both still defined by that belief system, even in rejecting it.

No, it's far from *all* the atheists and not-believer type people I know or have met or are out there, but those who come on the Internet mocking what they can't be bothered to understand or learn about, because they believe they alone have the Ultimate Truth... Well, those don't behave a whole lot differently from Fundies in places like this.

Mr Hirschfield;

Many are leaving religion because it makes no sense any more. It made sense to our forebears because they didn't know any better.
Nowadays superstition is chuckled at by most bright adults; people are less superstitious than in days of old.
That is the trend - from superstition to common-sense. Common sense tells us there are no gods; no Apollo, no Zeus, no Wotan. No Rama. No evil demons. No celestial superman looking over us.

Stop indoctrinating our children NOW! There is no Santa, and no gods.

Deep down you know it's the TRUTH. Embrace the truth. It really does set us free - free from ancient absurd dogma.

"CCNL

"Paganplace, It is great that you are learning. Reiteration is such a great teaching tool."

It's teaching everyone to ignore you.

" And based on the latest statistics, the message about the mumbo-jumbo of religions to include paganism is reaching the pews and forests."

I've got a better learning tool: it's called:

Paying attention.

If you try that, you'll see that Pagan religions are still increasing in reported numbers, ...but then you'd have to go and be on-topic. ...Or, if you're so 'liberated,' actually reexamine the same *opinions* you hold as radical Christian religionists.

I would assume that those that said they have "no religion" means that they do not have faith or believe in God, bu the survey is a bit vague. I believe the numbers of non-believers is far higher than reported because of teh stigma in this country of not professing a belief in a God or Gods. This is changig though, so I would expect the numbers to go steadily up - not only because current non-believers will counted, but also because science has been providing answers to riddles and religion has been trying to surpress them and people are wiseing up to that fact.

My Son wanted to be a cup scout - I had to hide my atheism so he can join. Persecution and intolerance keeps non-believers from saying so.

Of course spirituality still holds a role in America. Tons of people didn't vote for Barack Obama because they thought he was from some other religion that they found unfamilar and therefore scary. In fact, only the believers of Judeo-Christian dogma have any kind of shot at a political carreer in this country. You have a better shot if you're gay... and we know how much America loves its gay-bashin'.

Whew. Ok, point is, all should seek spirituality in a way that is individually satisfying, nobody should be pressured into mass spirituality for no other reason than conformity to the societal norms, and for God's sake, please don't judge other people for beliefs, as this makes you a horrible person. An atheist who accepts the beliefs of devout Christians is godlier than a Christian on the lookout for converts.

I think your first question is critically important. I don't think individual liberty or individualism and the common good need to be antithetical, but somehow since the age of Reagan they have become so. And somehow the rise of fundamentalist religion has actually diminished the pursuit of the common good in our society, by vilifying the other. In Idaho, where I live, the legislature just voted against allowing the local utility to provide relief to homeowners who cannot afford their heating bills. The majority, no doubt comprised of mormons and fundamentalists, stated that they did not want to risk the fact that funds could go to people who were unworthy because they had made bad financial choices. I have been pondering that rationale for days now. That, and the recent shootings by young disaffected men in the US and Germany, really makes me think we are in a horrible place where the sense of common humanity has been lost.

God denied yesterday that he is a member of the Republican Party and disavowed the multitude of "spokesmen" who have claimed that they are delivering messages directly from him.

As to his "autobiography" known as the Holy Bible, God compared the collection of stories to the discredited Howard Hughes biography. However, he did confirm that he has sent representatives to Earth on numerous occasions in hopes of guiding humans away from their self-destructive patterns.

Although many of the accounts of the activities of Jesus of Nazareth are fictitious, God said Jesus did indeed carry a message of a deeper reality free of illusion. "For that, they tortured and executed him," God said. "It was not terribly surprising, but it was disappointing."

Other messengers have included Gautama (Buddha) and Zoroaster, both of whom tried to teach humans the value of love and empathy. "Humans seem to require a lot of supernatural events and powers in order to believe in some higher reality," God said, "while dismissing the incredible reality right before their eyes as commonplace. Life, it seems, is wasted on the living."

So what Mr. Hirschfield is saying is that those who had chosen non belief during this study are merely being dishonest with themselves, because it's absurd to believe that someone would not hold any belief whatsoever in a god(s)? Using that logic, I guess I would have to assume, as a non believer, that all those who claim to be christian are also mistaken, since to me there is obviously no god. They're really non believers, but each and every one of them must have been confused and made their mark in error.

Right-Page-on-Right-Place,
and the exlibris.

God is, most likely, working as intended. Her marketing and PR departments, though, have been corrupted and need a major overhaul.

bellah. is bellah the group of beautiful people? elders? people with bells, with respect to suffix "-iah"?

so CCNL, are my messages high-sing or low-sing? so can you high-sing your religion? oh my God, teacher? thank You!

we need each and every person connected. Butterfly Effect and the Wind? that is another phrase, but i really talk about energy, light and love amongst people.

so genetics, that is the language as you watch the movies. so we need full threads, connected, covalent or either way.

one day, it stopped, at teenage years, it stopped, as far as i see. then i learned again to nourish and cheer up,i learned to keep up with daily life again, as it is in Polar Express Pine Tree Gift Bell of the Young MAn.

your flowers, teacher, you nourish your flowers, you check whether they are alive and colourful. then what about the words?

are the words "god, christ, ellah, prophet" alive and colourful in your garden, teacher? God from Wend? Christ from Cheer? Ellah from Forthy People? Prophet from Healer "rophe"? Chryst from Switzerland?

i didnt write any letter to any person in paper and envelope, since the last to Bibiana.

Tau Cross is the piece of the jigsaw puzzles i love the most, and a dress shaped as TAu Cross
on a woman cheers me up.

so are you losing your religion? you have already stopped feeding your worths and language, so to say your soul has stopped. when i was a kid, i was practising on words and worts, as i do today, to keep up with daily life and my personal presence.

Paganplace,

It is great that you are learning. Reiteration is such a great teaching tool. And based on the latest statistics, the message about the mumbo-jumbo of religions to include paganism is reaching the pews and forests.

Hey Pagan
I realize that a lot of religious folks are sincer people who serve humanity far better than I ever will. Sometimes I get over the top - recently read "The Agony and the Ectasy" and followed it up with reading about the behavior of oragnized religions during and after that period. Abuse of power by organized religion is one of my pet peeves, and I forget that there are a lot of sincere folks in religion that aren't in it for the money, power and sex(I'm looking at you Catholic Church!)

Oh, well, Marc, know this, being sincere clergy is pretty much a never-off-the-clock job.

What are they working *at,* is the question.

Think you're whistling past the graveyard sir. Leaving organized religion in droves is the same thing as leaving religion, if not as good as rejecting superstition totally. People are running from the controlling aspect of religion, which is mostly what organized religion is about - mind control - claiming to have power over the almighty without evidence. One imagines that to 'religious leaders' that must be troubling - might actually have to get a job instead of bilking people.

No, that is not what anyone is saying. :)

All eyes here have seen what you cut and paste enough times, CCNL. Trust me.

What we are really saying : (for those eyes that have not seen)

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was either the embellishment of the lives of three different men or a
mythical character as was mythical Moses, the "Tablet-Man" who talked to burning bushes and made much magic in Egypt.

Many of the 1.5 million Conservative Jews and many of their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT.

Current crisis:

Realization that the Jews are not god's chosen people.

www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

2. Jesus was an illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter/simple preacher man who suffered from hallucinations and who has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

For added "pizzazz", Catholic/Christian theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "filicider".

Current crises:

Pedophiliac priests, atonement theology and original sin!!!!

3. Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley, Roger Williams et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingie thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

Current crises:

Adulterous preachers, "propheteering/ profiteering" evangelicals and atonement theology.

I think the statistics, well, mean what they mean. Certainly they give the lie to certain other ways religion's been presented, during the Bush administration, at least, and has been used to substantiate claims for a conservative element to power over the rest. (Frankly, just before then, there was a lot of comment about the growth of the 'Spiritual Not Religious' category, ...then, mysteriously, the media shifted to stressing the interpretation 'Almost everyone here believes in 'God.'' )

"First, how do people, whatever faith they follow (including no faith at all) maintain their sense of obligation to the welfare of others when personal freedom defines their identity? Without that kind of commitment, forget religion, the whole world is in trouble. How do we assure that a celebration of personal freedom is not simply cover for a culture of narcissism and selfishness?"

This is actually not so hard as some religious organizations make it out to be. If you're responsible to yourself, be that in pleasing Gods or 'enlightened self-interest' or whatever, then you'd better be responsible to someone worth being responsible to. Much of the decline in certain religious denominations does seem to correlate with these institutions having in fact, aligned themselves with control for control's sake, exclusion of others, and mean-spirited blaming of minorities 'while Rome burns.'

Good morning, Rabbi.

(continued from next post)

"Second, how do those of us who still feel deeply rooted in a particular tradition take advantage of this moment not to make converts, or to beef up our numbers, but to serve all people (most of whom will never sit in our pews or pay our dues) who might benefit from some of the wisdom contained within the traditions we follow? How do we use this moment in American life to become increasingly sensitive to the difference between religion as we happen to understand it and faith/belief/spiritual connection which, if they are really real, must be bigger than our particular doctrine or tradition?"

Well, representing some traditions still experiencing a lot of *growth,* it could be that a certain amount follows from *not* seeking 'converts.' That very agenda has a way of polluting things: something we've learned well by negative example.

Even putting onesself in the *position* relative to other humans, that you have something 'better' that others must be 'converted' to ...is pretty much a framework for the dehumanization of others. Also, for self-delusions one could spend a lot of one's life-efforts to defend, when that effort might be better spent elsewhere.

It's most evident when such traditions try to negotiate getting over a *prejudice.* The scariest part about it for most of these would seem to be that it shakes their world, and maybe even their own belief, to even contemplate they might have been wrong about someone. Some will polarize and get more authoritarian and extremist, some will find that whatever they believe, such institutions have lost touch with it.

When the PRINTING PRESS came, people where awoke.Today with the COMPUTER, we know more and quickly. In the USA, most beleieve in GOD and always will but they will see through CONTROL of the membership of any given religion that does CONTROL. It is time for religions in the USA be honest with it's members and own up to any guilt.GOD's people must be given truth of GOD.