Rabbi, I'm aware that you are distinguishing between compassion for the criminal and justice, and that you want justice for Madoff, as well as for his victims.

But if you read this thread, you'll see that this sort of complexity is beyond the intellectual abilities of most Christians, let alone moron A-holes like Somali.

Remember your audience. The Christians are people who genocided us and many others throughout history. They are in the process of finishing off the Native Americans, and may wipe Afghanistan off the face of the earth. This is who and how many of them are.

The rape the world and drawing upon their "New [sic] Testament" immediately forgive themselves for it if, for an instant, they noticed they'd done something wrong.

LOOK at the child molesting RCC, which continually sent rapist priests for "treatment" preaching forgiveness for the pedophiles while bribing the victims' families to stay quiet. Until only a few years ago, the government of the US went along with this. Of course other pedophiles were arrested, but not la creme de la creme--not Christian clergy.

Do you understand the moral intelligence level you're dealing with? Further, although Madoff mainly stole from Jews, this is not a religious issue.

If you felt, the hospitals and schools he robbed needed counseling, you should have gone to them, since their loss was devastating.

When did Quinn and Meacham ask a priest or minister if we should have compassion for Enron?

I'm amazed you don't get it. These sensationalizing bigots, Quinn and Meacham, the former an hypocritical adulterer set you up. You owe something to the Jews who have read this.

Your children, perhaps. Perhaps, other people's.

johngerena :
The Largest Ponzi Scheme in U.S. History

The Largest Ponzi Scheme in U.S. History By John Gerena
No it is not Bernard Madoff, It is the U.S. Social Security System! A Ponzi scheme is where the Money from the people that put the money first gets paid by the people that put the money last. To me that sounds like our Social Security System. The head of the largest Ponzi Scheme in U.S. History, George W. Bush, not 50 Billion but Trillions of Dollars. Will he go to jail? Absolutely Not! He is being replaced by someone that will put more money in to this Ponzi scheme. So where did Bernard Madoff go wrong? He did not bring in Uncle Sam as his partner.

December 17, 2008 11:52 PM

But he did bring in Uncle Sam as his partner. According to the New York Times, the Security and Exchange Commission was made aware of the Ponzi scheme in 1999. However, they did not investigate until last week.

Hence, we can only conclude that like the Christian mortgage and loan banking fiasco, the SEC benefited from the scam. The question is why they aren't being investigated.

The Cocaine-Snorting Terrorist Stupid Americans Worshipfuly Call "president" Is The Enemy Of Humanity!!!

edbyronadams said
"Those who enter a Ponzi scheme early make out. Who were the beneficiaries? Shouldn't they be asked to pay back?"

They didn't know they were putting their money in a PONZI scheme, fool. They actually believed the man was a "genius" criminal (think about that!!!!!) who was ROBBING someone, (NOT THEM) perhaps ROBBINg Africans, or Asians to pay them!!!!

They thought he was a CRIMINAL, the stupid duped MORONS and they STILL "invested" in his CRIMINALITY, NEVER CARING WHO WAS BEING HURT OR BEING DESTROYED SO THEY COULD REAP RICH REWARDS!!!

THEY DESERVE WHAT HIT THEM AND MORE, THE LOT OF THEM!!!!

A lot of people, millions, perhaps BILLIONS, have never understood the AGE-OLD saying "You Reap WHAT YOU SOW!!!"

It would be better for Madoff had he lived a life in awareness of the words of the Jewish prophet Amos, from around 700 BCE. Amos, it seems, believed he was prophesying the thoughts of Yahweh when he cried out against Israel.

The following is from Karen Armstrong's, book, "A History of God".

'They thought they were God's Chosen People? They had entirely misunderstood the nature of the covenant, which meant responsibility, not privilege: "Listen sons of Israel, to this oracle Yahweh speaks against you!" Amos cried, "against the whole family I brought out of the land of Egypt:

You alone, of all the families of the earth, have I acknowledged, therefore it is for your sins that I mean to punish you".

The covenant meant that all the people of Israel were God's elect and had, therefore, to be treated decently. God did not simply intervene in history to glorify Israel but to secure social justice. This was his stake in history and, if need be, he would use the Assyrian army to enforce justice in his own land.'

As an agnostic, "One who holds the view that ultimate reality, as God, is unknown and probably unknowable"(Merrian Webster Dictionary) I believe there are truths revealed in Bible stories, however lacking these stories might be in the realm of historical fact.

While truths are often embedded in the stories of Israel in the Old Testament, they are truths for all people, of all faiths, to acknowledge.

The Rabbi speaks of compassion for Madoff, which I think is more justly awarded those of his family and friends who did not, at least knowingly, participate in his scheming, should there be any such family and friends. They will have to endure the shame brought down on them by this poor imitation of a human being.

For Madoff, should he be found guilty, there should be only the justice of exile from free society and whatever mercy and forgiveness he might seek and find in that exile.

Leanderthal, Lighthouse Keeper
http://leesvoicecryinginthewilderness.blogspot.com

Those who enter a Ponzi scheme early make out. Who were the beneficiaries? Shouldn't they be asked to pay back?

While I understand what Rabbi Hirschfield is trying to say I believe that this is really not the time or place seeking compassion for Madoff. With people losing jobs, their homes, their retirement, health, etc., to ask readers to find enough spiritual energy to be compassionate to someone who has ruined countless lives, both very rich and not so rich is pretty much of a stretch. Does the Rabbi feel the same way toward the late Kenneth Lay, CEO of Enron? Probably not.
I urge Rabbi Hirschfield to sit quietly for a few hours, re-read his column and reflect on what he wrote... and try to put it in context to what is happening in this country. I try to be compassionate with those who I feel are less fortunate than I, and perhaps I'm selfish, but I do not consider Bernard Madoff to be less fortunate than anyone at this point in time. Madoff will certainly be tried and hopefully will pay a price commensurate to his deeds. I do not have compassion for Bernard Madoff. I have shame for him. And I'd like to quote Ghadhi, one who I personally feel deserves compassion:

“Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed”

The author says that greed was not the motivation. It appears however that the defendant is a thief who used other peoples' money to live like a King in New York City. That appears to be greedy enough for most people.

Most of the Jew haters that post were waiting for a Jewish Rabbi to write a softer kinder piece about this man. I for one think you are wrong to try and soften the issues with excuses that may not exist.

If we are going to put this in religious terms why not refer to the Ten Commandments:

8. You shall not steal.

9. You shall not commit perjury.

10. You shall not covet.

It seems that these commandments are also encased in Federal Law as to 8 and 9 at least.

Some people lost everything they had put aside for their retirement, the writer Eric Roth I believe said just that.

Someone will sue the accountants and lawyers whose negligence enabled this disaster.

I hope through the insurance that much of the funds will be recovered. I doubt it.

Madoff is a thief. Not a common thief but nonetheless a thief. He stole billions so he is walking the streets instead of enjoying the comforts of jail as he would be had he stolen only thousands.

Compassion for Madoff, who made off with millions in ill-gotten gains? Thanks but no thanks. He's got no moral compass and I don't get the "greed is good" people like him. Maybe my perception is skewed because I'm now officially unemployed thanks to people like him. "Eff Grandma Millie," crowed the Enron traders. Madoff is just another stripe on that zebra, not to give zebras a bad name.

You really don't get it do you?

We've all seen it before...the rich when they are in trouble will:
a) hire the best lawyers and drag the case on as long as possible with all possible means at his disposal
b) suffer courtroom amnesia
c) be declared bankrupt if found guilty and on release suddenly have millions available to them.
d) profess to very sorry for what has happened

You might ask what happened to the fees Madoff charged for advice...where is all that? I bet he didn't invest it in his schemes!

Save your compassion for some of the small investors...a few may well suicide when they realise they've lost everything.

Madoff should go to jail for life...he's not the only one either...there's plenty of rich failed bankers, financiers and investment advisors out there who need never work again. None of them are worthy of our compassion.

" RudeIsraeli:
I'm always struck at how Jews are always spinning the story to find the most charitable interpretation when one of their own does anything questionable - CYA all the way!"

Ugh! The stench....

I'm always struck by how morons get more moronic every day. I know you can't can't CYA what with your using your A to eat, drink, etc., your having sh*t for brains. But close the door.

You stink up the place.

The Largest Ponzi Scheme in U.S. History

The Largest Ponzi Scheme in U.S. History By John Gerena
No it is not Bernard Madoff, It is the U.S. Social Security System! A Ponzi scheme is where the Money from the people that put the money first gets paid by the people that put the money last. To me that sounds like our Social Security System. The head of the largest Ponzi Scheme in U.S. History, George W. Bush, not 50 Billion but Trillions of Dollars. Will he go to jail? Absolutely Not! He is being replaced by someone that will put more money in to this Ponzi scheme. So where did Bernard Madoff go wrong? He did not bring in Uncle Sam as his partner.

"Sadly, greed seems to be an epidemic in the world today. Our leaders seem to think that morals are for the "little people". Maybe they need to start thinking longer term.

How does it benefit a man to gain the whole world but lose his own soul?"

Our leaders don't see a connection between their Christianity and morality. Where is the connection among Cheney's Christianity, Haliburton, and Iraq? And Christian Bush's?

Sadly, greed seems to be an epidemic in the world today. Our leaders seem to think that morals are for the "little people". Maybe they need to start thinking longer term.

How does it benefit a man to gain the whole world but lose his own soul?

I think I know why one can always find some shockingly naive religious leader who finds the most horrific monsters to be worthy of "compassion": when they find themselves about to comprehend the absolutely breathtaking depth and brilliance of the evil that exists in this world, they flinch and draw back, because they perceive a threat to their belief in God and his ability or willingness to fight evil, which they cannot possibly tolerate. 'There, there, he can't really be all that bad, can he?' He can. He is.
Hitler loved his mother, (German) children and his dog. Besides, his father was a real bastard. You want to make a pitch for compassion for him, Rabbi? Now, Madoff has certainly not murdered Jews - but his destruction of Jewish charities will certainly have an effect on the old people, Holocaust survivors, and the survival of Jewish culture in America. Don't you dare argue to us about his 'finer points'.

R. Hirschfield,

I have to say that putting this question on a religious forum as Meacham and Quinn have done is offensive enough, but to put it to rabbis, in particular, is disgusting.

Did they ask priests and ministers to give Christian consideration of all Christian defrauders? OF ANY?

How could you not have seen through this for the bigotry that it is and responded appropriately.

What you should have written and still should is an essay that goes to the issues I've raised. And you really should. Soon.

Btw, muslim Somali, what's new with Female Genital Mutilation in your country?

muslims stick together like dynamite or bombs.

Somali,

Racist pig. A lawyer went to jail trying to to aid Muslims wrongly imprisoned in Guantanomo. After 9/11, Hillel organizations openned their doors to Muslim students.

When can I go back to my country, muslim? My country, Iran? When do the rest of us get to go back to muslim countries?

When have muslims done anything other than try to kill and persecute Jews and Christians? What are the muslims in Pakistan doing to the Christians there?

Why not let justice play its role without rabbinic interference?

BAIL OUT THE SEC! after the 1929 crash the world welcomed the rise of National Socialism.

Where is the "hang-em-high" attitude for this white collar criminal?

I think the following excerpt from your essay is partially confused:
"And the only way to break a cycle of shame it to meet the ashamed with enough compassion that they can actually bear the responsibility that is theirs to accept. And in the case of Bernie Madoff, that means imagining for ourselves why he really did this, as the first step in figuring out what it means and how best to respond."
My short response: understanding is not, nor need it provoke, compassion. The long response: I agree that it seems probable that the fear of exposure as a failure in his profession was the main reason Mr. Madoff acted as he did. Pridefulness is likely behind this. It is also very useful of you to encourage people to develop a response to Mr. Madoff that goes beyond the desire for punishment, and that includes imagining how a human being could do what he did, i.e., how I could act this way. Moreover, no one wants to see a man suffer undeservedly. On the other hand, we have had no statement from Mr. Madoff. Specifically, no apology. So it is premature to ask for compassion. For one thing, we don't really know that he is suffering at all from having done what he did per se. He may in fact not be feeling any remorse for his actions. He may simply at this point be suffering from having been caught. If this were the case, I would certainly regret (for all our sakes) that a human being had descended to this point; but I would be well short of feeling compassion for him.

I agree that intent counts for something here. It's very possible that Mr. Madoff may have started out with the best of intentions, but stories which start with a bit of borrowing from the till don't usually have happy endings. Now if it turns out that Mr. Madoff consciously perpetrated this scam, that's another situation entirely. But the history of the world is full of individuals who got in over their heads and eventually reached the point where it was easier to keep the fiction going than to face the music.

Every person in this world who has done something wrong deserves our compassion. The best we can ever say about anyone else's mistakes is to thank God for not putting us to the test under the same circumstances. Compassion is not forgiveness or leniency -- it is understanding that Mr. Madoff is a human being who, one way or the other, made a terrible mistake...

You must be joking.

Yeah, I'm a little lost too. Maybe i'm already compassionate because I don't want to wring his neck, but I surely want a dispassionate exercise of the law.

Oh, and by the way, if you want to enlist my empathy, don't throw in a snide reference to "trickle down" with all its loaded meaning. Claiming compassion on behalf of Maddoff is not supported by taking nasty shots at your other apparent adversaries.

I have to wonder if you would preach tolerance, forgiveness and compassion if the fund in question had been headed by a WASP or Roman Catholic who was trusted by the Jewish philanthropic community.

Would this instead have been an essay on deliberate anti-semitism?

This whole thing is horrifying, top to bottom. I have very little compassion for Mr. Madoff, considering the charities that have lost their endowments.

You have lost me. This man is totally unconscionable. His behavior was not out of ignorance, it was knowingly malicious. He is a financial terrorist who has caused enormous loss to Universities, charitable organizations, towns and cities, pension funds and so much more. Could you describe a more vile person than this? I think not.

Maddoff's activity is not trickle down economics, which refers to stopping regulatory and tax punishment of legitimate businesses in order for the economy to grow. Maddoff's moral collapse through his Ponzi scheme, despite his legitimate appearanc,e is no worse than the government's own Ponzi schemes, including Social Security, Medicare, pension benefits and other unfunded mandates that rely on future contributors in order to meet present needs, not to mention raiding of these funds to finance people who never contributed to the system. I look forward to similar criminal proceedings brought against members of Congress.

There were allegedly two realms of 'perfect justice,' or 'absolute karma' before the current realm was brought into being. They were unable to sustain themselves.

Perhaps another way to view this is from the perspective of a 'defending angel,' who while in training went down to Earth to find the greatest value humanity had to offer.

The first time, the angel returned to God with a man who had given up his life for another and yet God said that was not the greatest human value.

The second time, the angel witnessed the birth of a child and again returned claiming that this was the greatest human value -- the ability to bring life into the world, but again God said that it was not the greatest value and the angel should try again,

The last time the angel witnessed a felon who had jus been released after serving a long prison sentence for another man's crimes, who was hot on the trail of revenge. But when the ex-felon caught up with the real DEFENDANT-in-waiting LOL, he saw a new child and a spouse as well as the truly guilty man. His heart then changed and he departed, never to return and seek revenge again. This time the defending angel returned to God with this event and God responded,

yes, the power to forgive is the greatest human value and perhaps we need to remember this as these proceedings go forth.

When Maddoff stands before the congragation, the news cameras, the press, his clients and denounces the culture of greed, self-serving illegal behavior, and the rich helping themselves to our tax dollars... When he comes TOTALLY CLEAN and tells how the crimes happened. When he names names. When he tears down the cultureof "theft-whenever-possible-is-good-in-a-white-collar"

THEN, AFTER he has sent the message that crime doesn't pay he can have some forgiveness and understanding.

Until then he gets PRISON...because WE'RE sending the message for him since he isn't man enough to do it himself!

CRIMINALS IN WHITE COLLARS SHOULD GO DIRECTLY TO PRISON!

I disagree that his sin was greed it was PRIDE the greatest of all sins bc it is insideous and difficult to repent. He accumulated big losses and could not own up to them as owning up would show he was MORTAL and not the GREATEST Financial person in the world.In the 80's when the bull market started the dow was at 600 during those years you could have thrown a knife at the WSJ and picked a stock and made money but starting in 99 the market went down and then this avalanche of bad news he couldn't obfuscate the number of losses but hid them. This was Satan's and Luifer's sins as well. They did not repent of their sin of pride and God banished them from heaven.

As per the RCC Catechism, there are five sins that cry out to Heaven for Vengeance:

(1) Wilful murder - the blood of Abel, [Gen. 4:10]

(2) The sin of the Sodomites, [Gen. 18:20; 19:13]

(3) The cry of the people oppressed in Egypt, [Ex. 3:7-10]

(4) The cry of the foreigner, the widow and the orphan, [Ex. 20:20-22] and

(5) Injustice to the wage earner. [Deut. 24:14-5; Jas. 5:4]

Madoff is guilty of 3, 4 and 5. In case there is no Hell or God, vengeance should be meted out here and now!!! All assets sold and returned to those cheated and life in prison without parole.

you'r so lucky there is freedom of speech in this country, somali. it's the only reason a moron like you gets to speak his tiny little mind. want to worry about someone. You got a whole decimnated country that eating itself alive. Don't you worry about us Jews.

The Cocaine-Snorting Terrorist They Call "president" Is The Enemy Of Humanity!!

I overlooked to state that it is shocking, SIMPLY SHOCKING, that a guy who calls himself a "rabi" or whatever comes to THE AID OF A CRIMINAL AND SUPPORTS A CRIMINAL, CALLING ON OTHERS TO BE EASY ON A CRIMINAL, CRIMINAL, CRIMINAL!!!!

I believe this rabi or whatever is calling for COMPASSION for this criminal because the CRiminal is a FELLOW jew!!!

The Terrorist They Call "president" Is The Enemy Of Humanity!!!

What ROT!!!!

Yeah. This is all rubbish. This man is a rabi? What a joker he is. I am sure the reason why he calls on others to be lenient and compassionate to that thiefing criminal, madoff, is because the man is a fellow jew.

If madoff had an Islamic name, would this jew call for leniency and compassion?

I doubt it.!!!!

Jews stick together EVEN in crime and wait for the predictable and cowardly charges of anti-semitism to protect madoff soon enough as this strange case progresses!!!!

The ONLY reason why this criminal got away with this scale of criminality is because he is, you guessed it, a jew!!!!!

And the stupid, greedy people who invested with the man, how idiotic could they be???
Well, many of them were probably raised on that dumb movie Gordon Geko made famous where Geko intones "greed is good!!" They all fell for it, the stupid americans. Didnt all these idiots watch the Geko movie to the end where Geko is destryed by his GREED??

I guess not!!!

Common sense says NO ONE can manage your money BETTER THAN YOURSELF!!!!

And how did a STUPID, Dumbed down nation like Americans who could be FLEECED by a simple-minded criminal (a ponzi scheme does NOT require a lot of brains to pull it off!!) become a superpower??????

This will be the enduring question of the century!!!!!

To suggest that the wealthy invested with this person as a means to increase their generosity to others is obscenely ludicrous. The rich just want to be richer and occasionally try to show off with donations that will somehow make them seem less greedy. None of the charities mentioned were off shore, definitely none that were non Jewish. I have met only two persons in my long lifetime that were pure of heart in their generosity. One was a postal employee, who lived alone and gave away millions by the time he died; another was my grandfather an absolute Christian socialist. He believed the only reason to earn money was to give it away to the less fortunate. We live sustainably on less than 45,000K per year, small house, one old car, no fancy tech toys or large screen TV's. Somehow we would know enough not to fall for get richer quick schemes so I am happy to see that the rich are just a little poorer these days. Maybe they'll have to clean their own mansions for a change.