All Comments (17)

If a Christian truly believes in heaven and that they, and their friends and family, have chosen the correct path to get there, then why is there still crying at a Christian funeral? If they are so convinced that their loved ones are going to heaven then shouldn't they be having a joyous celebration?

How does a Christian rectify the problem of loved ones not making it to heaven? If you are a Christian who firmly believes you are going to heaven and you have a child that decides to become an atheist, what kind of joy can you truly experience living an eternity in heaven with the knowledge that your own child is spending the same eternity burning in hell?

If you can say that the thought of your own child suffering an eternity of torture does not trouble you then you are psychotic and should be summarily dismissed from the discussion because you can not claim a God of love when you clearly demonstrate you have no concept of love.

Lacking this concept of love that I as an atheist am comfortable acknowledging and accepting, you have attained the great position of completely and utterly self centered. Therefore by your own definition of Christian you are going to Hell.

To believe in heaven and hell is to condemn oneself to the misery of being destined only for the hotter of the two.

Hello BGone my friend:)

Yes, it has been a while. I've been busy. I do this after my dawn prayers. My time is exactly 12 hours ahead of EST. Sometimes, during lunchtime for what of something better to do and comic relief.

As for your question as to what is going through the mind of a person driving a truck load into a crowd of people to kill as many as he can knowing and not caring that he is killing himself at the same time, we'll never fully know will we, even if we asked his family and friends.

As for your assertions that in western culture, anyone who is a danger to themselves or others is insane and must be locked up, how can one know for certain until it happened. The Virginia Tech killing spree is one such instance. And Ted Bundy too. Seems like a fine and nice young man who turns out to be a serial killer.

You may wish to lock up all of Iraq, or greater Islam (whatever you mean by greater Islam) but putting a whole country in jail is rather preposterous. Have you been wathcing "Escape from New York" where the whole New York City is one big prison?

I do understand you seeing no reason for suicide attacks in Iraq or anywhere for that matter, but you have to ask the Iraqis on that, or the Palestinians or the Tamil Tigers.

As for the Tamil Tigers, who in fact, invented suicide attacks, you will have to attribute what they did to Hinduism too I suppose.

I suppose, by your contention, all 1.3 billion Muslims are just waiting for buttons to be pushed to be suicide attackers then. By the way, do more reading and you will see that extremism is never spur of the moment. It is accumulated overa time by any combinations of grievances, loss of faith in secular life and trust in secular governance etc.

If you ask a Muslim what s/he thinks of suicide - it is a sin to do so. If you ask a Muslim what s/he thinks of suicide attacks, the reaction will be the same. But if you ask Tamil Tigers, some Palestinians and Iraqis who engaged in them, their response may be it is a "weapon of choice" in their war.

The hoax buster fellow you promote may seem to have all the answer for you, but this believer never stop reading and considering other articles, other books, other views regardless of how much it goes against her assumptions and beliefs.

And Bgone, like most Muslims, I am not obsessed with the Devil or Lucifer or Satan. Calling someone a Satan or a great Satan or little Satan is a dig on the devilish intent of individuals and countries here and now.

Thanks again for the links you gave.

Best regards
J

Sorry, http://www.hoax-buster.org It's a bit too late here for me to be posting I think.

JIHADIST:

Been a while. How you been? It's way past my bedtime but I want to ask a question.

What is going through the mind of a person driving a truck load of HE into a crowd of people to kill as many as he can knowing and not caring that he is killing himself at the same time? In western culture it's accepted that anyone who is a danger to themselves or others is insane and must be locked up. Is locking up all Iraq, greater Islam the only way to stop the suicide attacks?

I hope you understand that I see no reason for suicide attacks in Iraq or anywhere for that matter. So naturally I attribute them to the Muslim faith. Saying it's only extremists won't wash. Extremist can happen on the spur of the moment so I must say that all Muslims are candidates waiting to be elected.

I am interested in yours and any other Muslim's views on suicide attacks, how to stop them in particular. You do not approve do you?

That hoax buster fellow seems to me to have the answer. It's that demon on the nebol bridge that throws folks into hell put there by ministers, (Ayatollahs?) while they are still children. Have you looked at what he has to say and do you understand the nebol bridge? That demon on it is out to destroy the world it would seem to me. That's the Devil you know.

It's http:/www.hoax-buster.org Not very well written but no worse than the Bible. I'm not familiar enough with the Qu'ran to say how difficult it is to read and understand.

J Rhinehart

You ask : "I wonder how many depressives there were in Christian theologians down through the centuries?"

From my casual reading of European history, the second, third, fourth etc sons of the aristocracies with no chance of inheriting the land and titles of their fathers, join the church. Must be depressing for some, and don't stop them from engaging in European politics and instituting control of European states, say, by way of the Holy Roman Empire. Of course, I stand corrected as always.

This question on heaven and hell - if one believe in it and and who goes to hell or otherwise, brings out some of the most confusing, contradictory essays by some On Faith panelists with professsed faiths.

Even as a believer, it makes me blush and my head spin reading the essays, and got me into a jibing and jousting mode and tone in my posts. Not very polite of me, but of course, one can rationalise that they are all practicing reason in faith. Of course, their spiritual and intellectual take on God, heaven and hell is too deep, too nuanced for a happy anti-intellectual and philistine like me.

I am out of here to go a French blog in my free time to practice my French. Hope another question posed by WaPo will result in more considered essays by many On Faith panelists.

Best regards

Note to Mrs. Edgar: watch your husband. He thinks he ought to be loving the hell out of your neighbor.

Your "bubble" analogy reminds me of a science fiction episode of a popular TV show where a civilization had destroyed all their planet with pollution, so they gathered together a few survivors and built a haven underneath a bubble. The only problem was the machinery didn't last forever. And by the time it wore out, no one knew how to fix it.

How about the concept that our planet is a bubble? Space is outside of us. We can't live there. We're protected here.

This world is my bubble. And this life is my only one. I wish I had more. But maybe that wish is hurting me. I think maybe the Buddha had it right when he said the desire for immortality is a sin.

My grandmother lived her life as if this earthly life was worthless and something to be endured, not enjoyed. Needless to say, she was not a happy person to be around. I think she would be called a depressive today. Depression runs in our family.

There are times when I want to do things, but can't. During those times, I feel guilty, a product of my upbringing. Guilt is not beneficial in a depressive. It's hard now not to feel guilty about being depressed because I was told for so long that I could do better if I just tried. Willpower. That used to be the key word.

I wonder how many depressives there were in Christian theologians down through the centuries?

BGone my friend,

You stated : "Then it's work for the psychiatrist to keep the individual for doing something really stupid,, like what's happening to Muslims who were terrorized by threats of hell as children in Iraq."

How can you be certain of the children in Iraq terrorised by threats of hell? I had thought that they were actually living in hell on earth since 1991. Unless you mean the children of Iraq were terrorised by the hell of temporal armed conflicts and wars.

By the way, Muslims are not as absorbed by talk of heaven and hell in the hereafter - more of the here and now pursuit that some in the west characterised as "political" Islam. To borrow a phrase from American feminists of the sixties -"the personal is the political" - personal beliefs and concerns, as well as pursuit of individual and group rights, define political and public stance on issues.

"an alleged continued personal existence entered into after death in an afterlife for which no evidence whatever exists and from which no traveler has ever returned or communicated?"

Well, of course, this is exactly the core claim made by traditional Christianity - that, as Paul put it, Christ died, was buried, and rose again on the third day.

The belief in continued existance after death does not, in any way, preclude the possibility of meaningful communion with God during this life.

Sometimes the answer isn't "either/or" but "both/and"

"I think the concept of heaven is literal-minded in the first place"

Only if you make it so. We can only describe spiritual realities through analogies to what we know here and now. That's why the Book of Revelation, for instance, so often says "like gold," "like fire," "like glass," etc.

Is that really so surprising? We talk about the "long arm of the law," "blind justice," "vicious weather," a "black rage," "blind ambition," "tattered hopes" - are any of these concepts literal? Only in the sense that they are conveyed by natural human language, using words. They certainly don't suggest, for instance, that "justice" is likely to get carpal tunnel sydrome or tennis elbow.

Here is a question for the learned Dr. Edgar: Is it possible that the popular understanding of "The Kingdom of Heaven" is actually a misunderstanding of what Jesus meant?

Catholic mystics throughout the ages, outside formalistic Church dogma, seem to comprehend the "Kingdom" as a mystical union with the Godhead, a coming together of the divine spark within an individual with the universal Mind or Consciousness, a state of being outside of space and time, evidently an awesome and sacred highly personal experience of transcendence. (Of course, one has to be alive to experience this (or anything else. One also has to be alive in order to bring the fruits of this transcendent state back into ordinary reality and human affairs.)

By contrast, the vulgar understanding of the "Kingdom" is some pleasant, comfortable, loving existence somewhere AFTER one dies, and the means of acquiring an entry ticket to this place has been chronically in dispute, with the Church normally claiming to hold the keys. For example, one Church father in the Third Century said, "The road to Heaven is paved with the skulls of priests" (whatever that means).

So which is it, a union with God, a "Kingdom" experienced in this life, witnessed or experienced by the Christian and other mystics (called the Perennial Philosophy by non-Catholic writer Aldous Huxley and chronicled by American psychologist William James ("The Varieties of Religious Experience") -- or an alleged continued personal existence entered into after death in an afterlife for which no evidence whatever exists and from which no traveler has ever returned or communicated?

The vulgar, popular version seems to dominate the Washington Post's "faith-based" listserve these days. Can Dr. Edgar clarify matters?

"I agree. The Bible is a hoax. http://www.hoax-buster.org for proof beyond a reasonable shadow of a doubt."

What a rube! Let's throw away 2000 years of bible study because an ANONYMOUS poster posts a weblink!
Gee thanks, we can all go home now. Rube!

A great quote about heaven and hell was this one.
A man went to hell and saw that everybody had a big bowl of delicious soup that they could eat as much as they wanted. The only requirement was that they had to use a spoon. Unfortunately the spoon was too long to use to feed yourself. The people were starving and in torment. He then went to heaven and saw the same thing, same soup, same spoon. All the people were happy and well fed. The only difference was that these people fed EACH OTHER with their long spoons. The difference between love and selfishness. Much like the difference between heaven and hell.

OK Rev. Throw out the Bible for Jesus said, "fear him who can destroy both body and soul in fiery hell." So hell is actually being deprived of heaven, having to stay home when the rest of the children go to the picnic.

I agree. The Bible is a hoax. http://www.hoax-buster.org for proof beyond a reasonable shadow of a doubt.

My thanks to Methodists for not terrorizing the children with threats of hell fire, more like "you better watch out, you better not pout...." or Santa will pass you by. They can grow out of that but once the demon is put on the nebol bridge it's there to stay. Then it's work for the psychiatrist to keep the individual for doing something really stupid,, like what's happening to Muslims who were terrorized by threats of hell as children in Iraq.

Dr. Bob Edgar,

You stated : "The welcome mat is always out. God's persistent and ever-faithful message to humanity is: I LOVE YOU AND THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT!"

Yes, God love Its Creation and there is nothing I can do about it, but I do want God, the Just, to send me to hell for any sin/s I may commit against my fellow men here on earth and got away with temporal secular punishments.

Divine retribution and divine justice is not terrifying to me. God knows best that man, Its creation, is never truly capable of being just towards their fellow men and in meting out fair and appropriate punishments. Life sentence for some for murder; the electric chair for some for the same crime. 80 lashes for some for adultery; none for others for the same. Only grounds for divorce in many cases.

Getting to Heaven

It is not so hard to lead a heaven-bound life as people think it is. Some people believe it is hard to lead the heaven-bound life that is called spiritual because they have heard that we need to renounce the world and give up the desires attributed to the body and flesh and live spiritually.

All they understand by this is spurning worldly interests, especially concerns for money and prestige, going around in constant devout meditation about God, salvation, and eternal life, devoting their lives to prayer, and reading the Word and religious literature.

However, the actual case is quite different, as I have learned from an abundance of experience and conversation with angels. In fact, people who renounce the world and live for the spirit in this fashion take on a mournful life for themselves, a life that is not open to heavenly joy.

No, if we would accept heaven's life, we need by all means to live in the world and to participate in its duties and affairs. This is because living an inner life and not an outer life at the same time is like living in a house that has no foundations, that gradually either settles or develops gaping cracks or totters until it collapses.

EMANUEL SWEDENBORG

HEAVEN AND HELL

(1758)

That analogy is a little creepy. I'm not sure how happy I could be if I could see the faces of the "damned" pressed up against my window. It's be like trying to enjoy a banquet feast with starving people standing right outside.
Maybe I'm being too literal-minded, but I think the concept of heaven is literal-minded in the first place.