All Comments (100)

Yaya:
Dear Victoria. I have amazing news for you. Israel is fighting a war of existence!! Horrible things happen in war, including little kids being shot, frustrated and stupid soliers saying things like "the Palestinians are sub-humans" (the Arabs say that all the time about Jews) and little kids throwing stones at innocent palestinians. But there is another side that you seem to completely ignore!!! Arabs killing babies in cradles, lynching innocent jews and human bombs exploding in the streets. The French say : "a la Guerre comme a la Guerre" in a state of war horrible things happen on both sides!

Israels' right to exist does not come in exchange for other people's right to have their own country. The Jews created their own country because it was the only way for them to live like normal human beings and have their own freedom - we don't need anyone's permission for that!!! It was 2000 years of atrocities and Western hypocracy towards Jews that led us to this conclusion. We need a home of our own, our home and origin is Israel (we are semetic people just like the Arabs). We accomplished this mission to the dissatisfaction of the Arabs and people like you. And we will defend this home to the end. If the Arabs want to live in peace their best choice is to stop believing we will eventually leave, stop promoting terrorist groups, and encourage a more rational and humane attitude towards the conflict. The tragedy of Palestine is mostly an internal tragedy of a culture that is not muture enough to do what is really in its own interest. Lack of democracy, and social maturity... Israel has to deal with this and sometimes the results and indeed many mistakes are not pretty.

having a clear agenda you neglect the hardship Israelis are going through since the day of independence. Yes palestinians are suffering more but that doesn't mean we need to stop defending our country!

The bottom line is that we all know that the day of Palestinian idependence is near! there is a clear concensus in Israel that the palestinians should have their owm country and occupied land shall be returned,,,,,On the other hand it seems like Israel is the only nation on Earth that is still not clear about its own future....when will you start looking at things from a more objective angle??? what would you do as an Israeli when your enemies refuse to aknowledge your existence and clearly say that you have to leave or die? do you have asolution for us deat Victoria? perhaps a piece of land on the moon? would you go ahead and give them a state when your is bombed on a dayly basis???? Wake up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Victoria,

You are seeing what fits your theories not what is, as I have shown. And many of the folks like you do that.

And many people who oppose you do that. Such people's certainty that they have the truth makes it impossible for them to check out their truths by examining them with people who are skeptical about them.

Hence there are those who insist all human beings must respect the Messenger of God whether they believe he was or not and whether they think Islam is God's great gift to the world or not. And many of those people hate Christians who say Jesus died on the cross and Jews who say they are the Chosen People. And there are those who believe the other things who do not respect Islam.

Hence everywhere we look peaceful people are eagerly fomenting violence while patting themselves on the back about all of the good they are doing and regretting the bigotry and ignorance of those they disagree with.

no dave- all you do is claim youve answered them, but never give a why- youve not given a personal reason yet-

i know now, after all this time- you cant justify your blind allegiance to israel.

ive ben trying to find a good reason from an israeli supporter for years.

all the panelists never critique or analyze israel.

dershowitz hasnt answered it (he only preaches to the choir)

i guess there isnt one.

Victoria,

What do you think of your new friend Roger Smith, et. al.?

I think asking me questions which I have answered many times over and over again while saying I have not is a waste. I think saying I have said things which I did not say is as much of a waste as saying I did not say that which I did say. But you don't stop doing both.

People have a right to call themselves whatever they want, create their own stories about themselves and push their point of view. They have no right to be believed about everything they say. Everyone has a right to exist. Which Jewish leaders are questioning that?

dave- clintonian has crept into the american lexicon as an adjective to describe avoiding discussion by endlessly distracting arguments on definitons of simple words.
when clinton argues about the meaning of "is"

its not a right wing or left wing expression-

while you try to dilute the relationship with israel - which is unique in that weve supported them financially for almost 60 years

actually dave- i have already substantially laid it out for you- so youre just running in circles now-

and wile you continue to claim you are for 'peace' it would help if you stopped denying that the palestinian people also have a right to be.

i have no problemat all with the way words are used.

i have never wasted posts complaining about the definitions of words to prevent points being discussed.

I give reasons and you say they are not reasons. That is you playing with words.

I am direct and honest yet you insist I am not. That again is you playing with words.

Are you from the right wing? What other groups share their distaste for Clinton? And if he was not good enough for you, who could we elect who would be?

"why is israel enjoying this 'special and unique' relationship with the us?"

I gave a true and direct answer to that which you do not like. That attitude does not change its nature.

We have special and unique relationships with Mexico, Canada, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, France, the UK and many other countries. Each of those relationships is different, which is what special and unique means. So again you have a problem with the way simple words are used.

again like clinton-
why cant you just answer a question directly and honeslty?

Victoria,

"ill take that as you have no answer-"

That is the problem with the way you analyze things.

"why is israel enjoying this 'special and unique' relationship with the us?"

Other countries have unique and special relationships with us. Each is unique and special in its own way.

What dictionary defines the Palestinians as a race? What dictionary describes apartheid as a common system used by many nations?

What is the point to your telling me what I am saying and insisting your view of what I am saying is right and mine is wrong?

How can your generalizations make sense when they role together many false facts such as those you write about me and what I have written?

And how can people insisting their generalizations are the truth lead to peace?

ill take that as you have no answer-

agreeing to the definitions of words dave?

we have dictionaries for that

you can either answer or not- but that is the slipperiest excuse youve given yet to not have an answer

why is israel enjoying this 'special and unique' relationship with the us?

just start with one simple one dave-

the defintions are not applicable

what a pointless and ineffective distraction you posit

why is israel enjoying this 'special and unique' relationship with the us?

This is an example of why attempts to discuss things peacefully with critics of Israel go nowhere. You have your own specifications for what are ideas, answers, and responses. And mine flunk your standards. The same goes for words such as vague and specific.

When we can't aqree about words such as those, how could those Pro and Con possibly agree about how to use such words as:

Racist

Genocidal

Nazism

Apartheid

Imperial

Colony

??????

i ask the same questions because you dont answer them-
evidenced above by another non-answer

while you talk about world peace you havent offered one single idea about how to go about it-

its just a distraction form the questions you wont answer because there is no answer that would really make sense

why is israel enjoying this 'special and unique' relationship with the us?

why a trillion dollars in their pockets form american taxpayers?

why american soldiers being promised to go and die in iran for them?

dont they have a whole country of soldiers?

if theyre such good buddies, why isnt there ONE israeli troop helping us in iraq?

you dont have an answer for any question ive asked

i already know the answer dave- ive just tried to offer you a chance to justify these questions

which you havent or cant or wont

It is interesting and amazing the way you have summarized the words I have written above.

General assertions of truth that are basically definitional are not questions. And they make things worse from the point of view of making the world a more peaceful place.

You can ask the same questions over and over because you don't like the answers you get. I see no value to that. Nor do I see value to making guesses about why the answers do not fit your answer form that assume some kind of inferiority to you.

my heart is not hardened, or enraged, or obstinate- if others respond to some of the truths presented in such a way, im not responsible for their intractable reactions.

it doesnt make the questions, or the assertions invalid-

if someone presents an opposite view to mine- it certainly doesnt enrage me-

if someone is enraged by anothers viewpoint- the fault lies within their own self- not the poser of the question-

so your point is, dont ask questions because it makes unreasonable people even more unreasonable?

I do not view your facts as clearly true. Maybe some partway. Maybe not. Your generalizations only enrage others or harden folks' hearts and minds. So obstinacy reigns and views itself as reason.

dave- the victim act isnt working- especially when you use abusers language-

you just stated on taylors blog that your reason to justify the creation of the state of israel is that it created stability-

if you really believe that displacing the indigenous peoples and creating the largest refugee population that the earth had ever seen constitutes stability- if this is really something you believe- and you seem to-as you argued it on pamela taylors blog-
then i have a difficult time understanding such bias.

and its not likely i will ever surmount it to come to the level of a constructive productive dialogue-

as youve said you want peace-you refuse to ever offer one idea or suggestion as to how-

and thats fine- maybe youre not familiar with the situations and impediments and thats also fine-

if thats the case just say so-

i keep assuming you hve good intentions- but im waiting for a suggestion from you- when i offer any suggestion instead of considering it and responding to it- as i do you- you just do the above-

demean or belittle - ive never made a comment about your intelligence dave but you seem to be starting down a bad road-

you restate things inever said and i also have never done that-

i dont interpert your words for you- ive been sincerely trying to establish a common talking point-

its not that important- it is a political situation that will continue to hold my attention and studies in the future-

i mistook your tenacity in the conversation for something else i guess

"why do you continue posting?"

You seem to be trying to drive me away or bury my thoughts under debris. And I do not view that as a peaceful way to approach life's complexities no matter how many smart, decent people do it.

At this point you are simply posting the stuff people put on placards and demonstrate about. So to you I am one more awful Zionist and you are relentlessly trying to shut me up?

I don't agree with your criteria for what are facts and what are not.

dave - YOU SAID your answers are answers- not me

you dont have a reason- ok-

why do you continue posting?

just to discount the real points im making and try and distract me form making more?

well- its worked-

ive tried to engage you but you just want to either disagree with no evidential support whatsoever-

or get into nonsensical circular discussions on what logic is-

i am anti-zionist-
i have posted 10s of substantive and infromative and factual posts and copies- mostly from jewish sources

that is the definition of a strong position

you are zionist
you have not once posted a copy or substantive fact about anything

or given a personal reasoning process
that is the definition of vagueness and ambiguous distraction off point and pointless

You keep saying my answers are not answers. And now you say my reasoning is not reasoning. Well that is clear. Now as to vagueness. What are your rules for something to be an answer? What are you rules for a train of logic to be reasoning? Your ideas about that kind of thing appear to me to be totally vague.

dave i dont have an opinion on your reasoning because ive never experienced it-

try it- lets see-

my answers are answers?

you are giving new depths to vagueness

Well. I don't get to talk to the marchers and stompers like this very often. My answers are answers. They are based on the way I reason things out. Your distaste for the way I reason things out and talk about them will not convince me to do those things your way. The way I do things works well for me under many different circumstances.

and i keep asking what is it?
what are your reasons?

the obvius point of letting people speak for themselves barley needs to be mentioned

so what are your reasons dave?

hello?
sound familiar?
i ask your reasons for a month
you claim you already gave them
i ask where? what?

you come back a day later ignoring the query with more distractions

what are the reasons you have for supporting israel in general

anything?

no reasons?

some mysterious alleged answer that never materializes but hovers on the edges of these pages wating to manifest itself?

WHAT ARE YOUR REASONING PROCESSES IN REGARDS TO YOUR SUPPORT OF ISRAEL DAVE?

simple direct focused

"thats why i cite what jewish human rights groups say in criticizing themselves dave- theyd know best-"

Why? What kind of trained staff do they have? Is being Jewish somehow magical?

"so youre saying you dont have information to make a stand-"

You keep saying that and I keep pointing out it is not true. So it is a rhetorical question. I am starting to think you have no interest in what I think and are just using me as a target for scripted comments that opponents of Israel apply to anyone who disagrees with them about anything that matters.

That is the problem with the sloganeers, demonstrators with placards, and sellers of books which cater to those who despise Israel. They keep listening to each other, keep talking to people who only exist in their imagination, have no creativity and no intellectual curiosity about how those who think they are wrong came to view things that way. It is sad. All of that righteous energy going to waste through ignorance.

thats why i cite what jewish human rights groups say in criticizing themselves dave- theyd know best-

so youre saying you dont have information to make a stand-

that means that you have made a stand without any reasons to support it

i dont share your distrust of every thing that i dont agree with dave-
or your trust of everything that supports what i already believe-

so you dont have a reason, but you still hve a position on the issue of israeli support and funding by the usa

interesting

It is one thing to question authority. It is another thing to question everyone in authority about everything. I am instinctively oppositional to everyone who says I must do or think this without giving good reasons. That does not force me to on principle reject things even when the reasons that are given are reasonable. That does not mean I can't accept suggestions and check them out. It does not force me to object when it is silly and self-defeating to do so. And it does not keep me from trusting many people about many things.

Every president was elected by the people. Some have been re-elected. Some are viewed as great men. There have been presidents from both parties.

The question everyone must deal with is when do you trust without extensive research or a presumption of wrong-doing or stupidity and when do you check things out for yourself? When you check things out for yourself, how much time and effort do you put into it?

We each have limited time and energy. If we try to relentlessly check out everything, we will fall apart. And even then there will be many important things we simply must take on trust even when we know that trust can be abused. The safety of the food we eat is an example of that.

"actully- taking for granted anything about something this important-
would to me, be an acceptance on blind faith of the good intentions of authority that i do not share"

There you have generalized. Even when things are extremely important each person can not check out everything. How thoroughly do you check out press releases from organizations you trust? How thoroughly do you check out what Palestinian sources and Christians visiting the territories report? Why deem them to be more trustworthy than anyone in the governments of Israel and the US?

dave says-

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~ "I have simply taken for granted that every president since FDR can not have been completely wrong about something this important."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

i have a very different concept of questioning authority

actully- taking for granted anything about something this important-
would to me, be an acceptance on blind faith of the good intentions of authority that i do not share

if you consider this a reason to support isralei funding by the usa- more power to you dave

Well, I was not referring to you. I was simply pointing out that I also strongly question authority. Partly because it seemed to me you think I do not.

wow dave- i tried to be self incriminating to give you a way out of not having an answer-

not to be insulted!

oppositional disorder?

why do you repay good sentiment with vague insults?

turned what around?
an apology for being confrontational?

maybe i spoke too soon then.
mercy

what on earth are you attacking me for dave?

oppostional disorder?

how indelicate and unmannerly a response to my own self condemnation and apology given with good spirit-

mercy- what an unnecessary attack

"ok dave- its hard for me to imagine such a thing but there are plenty of people who have faith or trust in their leaders and that also is fine"

Once again you have turned it around. I do not trust every leader. I assume that every leader has not been evil and wrong. They are all human. They are all short sighted about some things. They all think they understand things better than they do. They all make mistakes. The issue is does that apply to all of them since FDR about aid to Israel. It would take a lot of hard evidence to convince me of that. Not being convinced of that is not the same as having faith it is not so.

"but i grew up around the whole question authority mindset-"

I fall short of oppositional disorder but I was raised in such a way that I blindly trust and follow no authority. It must make sense to me. It is simply not sensible to assume everyone in authority can not be trusted. So I do not carefully check out every issue to be sure I think it has been well decided.

thats true dave- we humans say the same words laden with different expectations- and colored in such a variety of hues-

im probably a bit more anti-establishment in ym mentality- but i grew up around the whole question authority mindset-

i see the value in having suspicion for the best intentions for people and i apologize if i my assumptions ihave not always onored your responses in that way-

youre a very reasonable and patient fellow

peace

well thats as close to an answer as youve given-

ok dave- its hard for me to imagine such a thing but there are plenty of people who have faith or trust in their leaders and that also is fine

why do you think that answer would bother me?

you can be as passionate or disinterested or anything in between on any given subject-

im not the thought police!

it takes all kind dave- if everyone shared my quixotic bent this would be a world of even greater chaos

I have been giving you my views on the subject. I think you expect them to fit into a mold that they do not fit into. I have never been in a position where what I think about this makes a difference. Hence I have not spent a lot of time studying the issue. I have simply taken for granted that every president since FDR can not have been completely wrong about something this important. Had I spent years studying the matter intensely, I would probably have some views I feel strongly about. Even then my views would be very analytical and you probably would not feel my answers were responsive.

ive been asking why YOU personally, dave marshak- support us(americans) giving aid to israel

"so youre saying americas priority should be making israel feel secure?"

You have read that into what I said. We spend much money on many things.

"i just dont share your opinion that israel is the center of the world and their security is more important than anyone elses-"

It is disturbing that you have translated everything I have said into that statement.

It is almost as if you have a script and if I do not say what your script says I should say, you proceed just as if I had said it.

dave - i havent been asking why WE (americans) give aid to israel-

ive been asking why YOU personally, dave marshak- support us(americans) giving aid to israel

ive asked it here- on 4 other panelsits questions- and on the main board-

so youre saying americas priority should be making israel feel secure?

ok dave- pandering to israeli paranoia doesnt work for me but if it works for you - i have no problem with that-

i just dont share your opinion that israel is the center of the world and their security is more important than anyone elses-

ok dave- if thats what you think- its what you think

thanks for the answer

You have been asking me why we give aid to Israel. I have tried to explain that it is not a Vast Jewish Conspiracy.

I think we should give aid to Israel because it is in our interest to help Israel feel secure. If Israel felt totally secure, it would deal with the situations in Gaza, the West Bank, and Lebanon much differently. So all of the attempts to convince Israel that the world is against them and their doom is sure simply make it more likely that everyone involved will tenaciously hold on to violence as a means of advancing their ends.

I do not support every item of aid and I can't comment on the things I do not know about. We will never achieve peace as long as different groups shout at each other over five mile up generalities. We have to find atomic details everyone can agree on.

Think of it as a triage situation. Some issues are insoluble. Some could be readily addressed with patience and precision. And some are in between.

im asking you as a supporter of aid to israel what your personal reasoning is.

if someone asks me my reason for supporting something- i have one.

if you dont have one,ok.

Most of the people who have studied the issue think it is a good idea. Why is that not sufficient? There are many other important problems to be solved including the one this forum is discussing.

same question dave-

what is the reason america should keep giving billions of dollars to israel?

"while youve consistently defamed carter- are you aware that he increased by half israeli financial aid?"

I have not defamed Carter. You point out he increased aid and does not seem to have apologized for that. Do you think he was evil, stupid, or both?

"am i to conclude that your children and grandchildren are beneficiaries of this aid and your self interest impedes your abiltiy to give an answer?

thats all i can figure dave"

That would be consistent with some of your other explanations. As with many of those it makes no sense.

I am not happy about any of the situations where people can be blown to bits by simply standing on the street. I have no magical answer that will fix all of them.

You may ask questions which I do not at the moment have enough information to answer. Such as why have presidents since Truman given each of the separate items you view as aid to Israel.

Do you have a single aggregate number you are sure of?

Life is not a multiple choice quiz. Every question does not have a readily available and reasonable answer.

thats funny that suddenly jimmy carters opinion is of value-

while youve consistently defamed carter- are you aware that he increased by half israeli financial aid?

What they accepted at Camp David was Sadat's 1971 proposal but now in terms that were much more harsh for both the United States and Israel because by 1978 Sadat was calling for a consensus on the Palestinians and leaving the rest to the occupied territories. So actually the United States at Camp David was forced to accept a proposal, that was worse from their point of view and Israel's point of view, than the one they turned down in 1971.

In the United States, Carter immediately raised US aid to Israel to over 50 percent of total aid. Israel understood what was happening. Egypt, the only Arab deterrent, was out of the conflict, and the United States had increased aid. Israel drew the conclusion that the US was telling us that we can expand into the occupied territories and attack our northern neighbour, which is exactly what they did.

so - im not asking politicians dave

ive been asking you repeatedly

am i to conclude that your children and grandchildren are beneficiaries of this aid and your self interest impedes your abiltiy to give an answer?

thats all i can figure dave

if you dont have an answer=- its perfectly fine-

there is no answer dave- (which youve pretty much illustrated by your inavbility to construct one even though you clearly are trying-

i give you credit dave fornot being a hypocrite at least-

im not casting aspersions on your family dave- just pointing out that your motivations may be fueled by other interests

Wednesday
21 March, 2007




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US foreign aid to Israel
Date posted: May 20, 2002
By MIFTAH
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User Comments: 6

A) The nature of US foreign aid to Israel

1. Constitutes 30% of the total US foreign aid budget, which renders Israel to be the largest recipient of US aid in the world
2. Started in 1948 and gradually increased over the years
3. Promotes American interests in the Middle East
4. Proposed by Israel in 1998 to be reduced in an effort to establish an economically independent country

B) The controversy for US foreign aid to Israel

1. Granted in disproportion to Israel's size and needs
2. Promotes the illegal occupation of Palestinian land in order to establish settlements for Jewish immigrants
3. Transforms Palestine into a military test ground
4. Violates US Law and abuses human rights
5. Inflicts great economic losses upon the American people

Sources

A) The nature of US foreign aid to Israel

A1. Constitutes 30% of the total US foreign aid budget, which renders Israel to be the largest recipient of US aid in the world

* Since 1987, the US congress has annually been approving a foreign aid bill totaling an average of $3 billion of American taxpayers' money to Israel, $1.2 billion in economical aid, and $1.8 billion in military aid.
* After the gulf war in 1991, the US has additionally been offering Israel $2 billion annually in federal loan guarantees, which brings the total US foreign aid to Israel to about $5 billion, or $13.7 million per day.
* Other forms of aid to Israel are a result of "consequential" aid, such as the approximate $1.5 billion in total tax-deductible private donations from numerous Jewish charities and individual donors. "Consequential" aid to Israel adds up to an approximate $8 billion in total US foreign aid to Israel.
* All in all, this is the largest amount of foreign aid given to a country, and constitutes over 30% of the total amount of US foreign aid budget.

A2. Started in 1948 and gradually increased over the years

* Soon after the Truman decision in 1948 to recognize Israel as a Jewish State, the US Congress approved an aid package in the form of a $135 million Export-Import Bank loan in order to take in holocaust survivors and provide them with homes.
* Until 1973, aid was mainly made up of military, economic and export-import bank loans, although annual economic grants ranging between $0.1 and $74 million were also offered between the years 1951 and 1962.
* After the 1973 war, the US aid to Israel constituted largely of military and economic grants to help strengthen the Israeli defense forces. This included $12-80 million, which was annually granted towards the establishment of Jewish settlements.
* This TABLE shows the history of US financial assistance to Israel, as documented by the Jewish Virtual Library. Notice the pattern of increased assistance over the years for economic, military and Jewish immigrant grants, especially after 1973. This pattern reflects the US interests (section A3) in empowering Israel as the only democratic, close ally in the region, and not for the pure intent to assist a developing country.

A3. Promotes American interests in the Middle East

* The US funding to Israel acts as the backbone for the strategic partnership between both countries. By advancing Israel's technological and military powers, the US is able to share intelligence information regarding Arab militant groups, like Hizbullah, as well as information regarding the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction in countries such as Iran, Iraq and Syria.
* Three quarters of the military aid to Israel goes for importing US-made military equipment such as F-16 and Apache attack helicopters. This creates a job market for US citizens and transforms Palestine into a test ground for US made weaponry, used daily against Palestinians.
* Israel has cooperated with the US arms industry to develop more effective military equipment at affordable costs to the US. About one quarter of the military aid to Israel is contributed towards military research and development, where several innovative jet fighters, missiles and navigating and targeting devices have been manufactured and sold back to the US. Examples are the ITALD, Litening, Popeye and the UAV.

A4. Proposed by Israel in 1998 to be reduced in an effort to establish an economically independent country

* In 1998, according to an agreement with the Clinton Administration and Congress, Israel voluntarily requested to decrease its financial dependence on US economic aid by phasing it out over a period of 10 years.
* The $1.2 billion in economic aid will be reduced by $120 million each year until it is down to zero in the year 2008. This will help Israel to become an economically independent country.
* However, 50% of the savings (i.e. $60 million) each year will be added to an emergency military aid fund to Israel. This demonstrates the US's persistence and commitment to help Israel gain control of the region.

B) The controversy for US foreign aid to Israel

B1. Granted in disproportion to Israel's size and needs

* Israel is an economically, technologically, and militarily advanced country, with a per capita rate of $14,000, which is higher that that of all neighboring Arab countries, including the oil-rich Saudi Arabia. It is ranked as the world's sixteenth wealthiest country, yet the US aid to Israel constitutes 30% of the total US foreign aid budget.
* Israeli population is 5.8 million, which only constitutes one thousandth of the world's total population. Between the years 1949 and 1998, the US has provided a total of $84 billion in aid to Israel, which exceeds that given to all countries of sub-Saharan Africa, Latin America, and the Caribbean combined, with a total population of about 1.054 billion people.

B2. Promotes the illegal occupation of Palestinian land in order to establish settlements for Jewish immigrants

* A portion of US foreign aid to Israel, which has increased in the past decade to $80 million annually, goes into building settlements for Jewish immigrants. This occurs by the illegal confiscation of Palestinian land and home demolition to allow for space. Jewish settlements surround every single Palestinian city in the West Bank, and their rapid construction since 1973 has prevented the creation of a feasible Palestinian State.
* Jewish settlements are built on confiscated Palestinian land to accommodate Jewish immigrants from all over the world, based on the Israeli Law of Return. These immigrants are guaranteed the right to Israeli citizenship, free Hebrew learning, and immediate employment. On the other hand, Palestinian refugees who were forced to flee their homes in 1948 and 1967 are forbidden from returning to their towns of origin.

B3. Transforms Palestine into a military test ground

* Seventy five percent of US military aid to Israel goes into purchasing US-made military equipment, such as tanks, machine guns, bullets, helicopter gunships, and more. The US depends on Israel to test new military technologies in war conditions. For example, uranium-depleted ammunition has been fired at civilians in Palestine.

B4. Violates US Law and abuses human rights

* The Foreign Assistance Act (FAA) of the United States, which provides guidelines for the eligibility of certain countries to purchase US-made weapons and military equipment, states in section 116 that "No assistance may be provided under this part to the government of any country which engages in a consistent pattern of gross violations of internationally recognized human rights." However, Israeli army engages daily in degrading and inhumane treatments towards Palestinians, such as prolonged detention without charges, strip searches at checkpoints, beatings, torture, and home demolitions. According to Amnesty International, Israel is the only country that legalizes torture.
* Similarly, section 4 of the Arms Export control Act prevents the US government from selling defense articles to countries that abuse their use for non-self-defense purposes. In 2001, the US State Department described the actions of Israeli army against Palestinians as an "excessive use of force," referring to the use of live ammunition when soldiers were not in a pending danger. This clearly shows that the US does not agree with the way these weapons are being used against Palestinians, yet the US military aid to Israel continues consistently as agreed between both countries.

B5. Inflicts great economic losses upon the American people

* Besides the roughly $8 billion in annual taxpayer money to Israel, there are hard to track forms of aid which have been causing great economic losses to the American people. According to the Central Bank of Israel, in the 1980's the US bailed out the Israeli banking system at a cost of $10-12 billion in military and economic aids. Congressional researchers disclose that this money was never paid back, and has been forgiven by the American government.
* The US's trade deficit with Israel is about $5-5.5 billion. This is due to trade imbalance between both countries. While the US pays real money for imports from Israel, Israel does not pay real money for its imports from the US. This costs the American people an equivalence of a quarter million jobs.
* In a similar manner, there are great losses to American military institutions. For every dollar of military equipment the US gives Israel, the US buys 60 cents worth of Israeli equipment. Only the difference here is that the US pays with real money, but Israel does not.
* The Oil Supplies Guarantee affirms that if Israel's oil supply is to be cut off for any political or economic reason, the US guarantees to provide Israel with oil regardless of the US oil supply levels. This guarantee carries with it a potential price tag of $20-30 million a day.

seems a bit much doesnt it?

what could possibly be the reason we give israel so much?

ther than the concerted efforts of AIPAC lobbyists on politicians?

why should the usa be obligated to support israel dave?

what is the reason that israel deserves all this money from us?

"there is a 10 year limit to every other country in the world that receives aid from the usa

you know that"

I do not.

"so its not working giving them all that money is it?"

How do you know? Was all of the money wasted? Do you think politicians from both parties approved it knowing it would be wasted? That is the thing I can't figure out. What do you think everyone from JFK and Jimmy Carter to Nixon and Reagan thought they were doing?

no dave you dont- there is a 10 year limit to every other country in the world that receives aid from the usa

you know that

so why do we keep giving israel all that money? after 50 years?

whats the reason?

theyve increased their aggressions to the palestinians-

the figures were provided)

the palestininasn have decreased by half their aggression

all of 23 israelis killed last year

660 palestinians -141 of them CHILDREN!!!!!

for 50 years! looooong before 911!

so its not working giving them all that money is it?

their being more aggressive

why should they keep getting rewarded for that?

what is the reason that we should give israel all that money?

"about 150 countries. Figures 3 and 4 illustrate the top 15 recipients of U.S. foreign
assistance estimated for FY1994 and FY2004, respectively. Assistance, although
provided to many nations, is concentrated heavily in certain countries, reflecting the
priorities and interests of United States foreign policy at the time.

As shown in the figures below, there are both similarities and sharp differences
between country aid recipients for the two periods. The most consistent thread
connecting the top aid recipients over the past decade has been continuing U.S.
support for peace in the Middle East, with large programs maintained for Israel and
Egypt. The importance of Latin America counter-narcotics efforts is also evident in
both periods, with Bolivia, Peru, and more recently, Colombia, among the top U.S.
aid recipients. Assisting countries emerging from conflict, usually under more
temporary circumstances, is another characterization of U.S. foreign aid. The leading
recipients of Haiti, Bosnia, and South Africa in FY1994 have been replaced currently
by Liberia and Sudan.

But there are also significant contrasts in the leading aid recipients of the past
decade. The most prominent is that Iraq is by far the largest recipient of U.S.
assistance in FY2004 at $18.44 billion. The impact of the terrorist attacks on
September 11, 2001, and the subsequent use of foreign aid to support other nations
threatened by terrorism or helping the U.S. combat the global threat is clearly seen
in the country-aid allocations for FY2004. Afghanistan, Pakistan, Turkey, Jordan,
and Indonesia are key partners in the war on terrorism."

http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/31987.pdf

Once you get on the foreign aid list you tend to stay on it.

I can't comment on vague. Let's look at some facts together.

I do not expect what politicans do to make sense and be logical. That is not the reality they work in.

i didnt ask why we give foreign aid-

i asked why we are still after 59 years giving it to israel

held up is a good expression dave-

i worked for baxter travenol-
we are being held up by drug companies-
are you aware that the same pill is 1/10 the price in germany?
same pill- same company 10 dollars america (where the company is based) 1 dollar in germany

but thats not the question is it?

what is the reason we give all that money to israel?

Why do we give foreign aid? The two parties do what they do for political purposes. They think what they are doing is right. I don't check the details. I am sure they don't check all the details. Do you have anything specific you are curious about? It seems to me the campaign is to cut off all funds to Israel so as to force Israel to do what the Arabs want. That too is politics. The Arab lobby is strong and they control much.

Health care for all in the United States is not held up by what goes to Israel. It is held up because we can't agree on how to do it.

dave- why should the united states continue to give exhorbitant financial support to israel?

there are many poorer and more oppressed and more deserving countries in the world-

so what is the reason we should totally support the financial structure of israel?

shouldnt we be worrying about health care for our kids?
a full 1 in 4 children in america dont have health insurance!

in israel everyone does!

and we pay for it!

are they more deserving than we are?

Congress is filled with people who have huge egos and do what they do for all kinds of reasons.

The Republican Party is not and never has been dependent on Jewish support.

Governments do all kinds of things which make no sense to me. That is the nature of politics.

"aipacs political decimation of israel dissenters is an easy thing to find

a tiny bit of research will uncover this"

Perhaps you can provide some links to it?

no dave- everyone in our government doesnt think it is reasonable to support israel at all- watch congressional proceedings one day-

but adly it is common knowledge among pundits that in order to be elected one has to be israel friendly-
'remember the hatchet job done on paul findley?

barak obama recently made a speech wherein he mentioned the suffering of palestininas-

the aipac lobby was so vociferous in its outcry that he made a speech before them outlining his adamant support of israel-funding and american unity of purpose-

possibly youre not familiar with his views- but it was a turnaround from his previous positions-

it couldnt help but be noted his direct kowtowing to aipac-

sorry dave the neocons and aipacs political decimation of israel dissenters is an easy thing to find

a tiny bit of research will uncover this

by the way dave just out of curiosity-

you never answered the question about usa funding of israel?

possibly you have some reason you could give WHY exactly it is reasonable to support israel and give them so much money?

the assumption that it is reasonable is not mine so perhaps you could clarify why it is your assumption