All Comments (93)

Anonymous:

Mary's place in Christian spirituality can indeed be perplexing even for a Latin American Catholic like me.

Yet Jesus the Jew, was also peplexing to his religious contemporaries and their problem was not resolved by cruxifying him.

Jesus said that whoever receives whomever he sends, receives him, and that whoever receives him receives he who sent him.

Later, according to John, at the foot of the cross, Jesus told John that Mary was his mother.

What do you think Jesus may have meant by this? Was he sending Mary to John, and thereby to his other disciples?

Mary: The Intercessor

Many faithful Catholics fervently pray to the virgin Mary, believing that she is the mediator who intercedes on their behalf before the Father:

"Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix." Pg. 252, #969

Here, four specific titles are attributed to Mary. Does she fulfill them? Let' s look at each one:

Advocate

The belief that Mary is an advocate before the Father is yet another man-made tradition, not supported by Scripture. Moreover, the Bible defies Catholic doctrine by declaring that Jesus, not Mary, is the only Advocate:

"...if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:" 1 John 2:1

Helper

Once again, the Bible disagrees with Catholicism by declaring that Jesus, not Mary, is the only supernatural Helper:

"Behold, God is mine helper..." Psalm 54:4
"So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me." Hebrews 13:6

"Many are the afflictions of the righteous: but the LORD delivereth him out of them all." Psalm 34:19

Never in the Word of God is Mary mentioned as being a supernatural helper.

Benefactress

Here is another tradition of men. The Bible calls no one, including Mary, a "benefactress."

Mediatrix

The Bible never elevates Mary to the position of mediatrix, but it does ordain Jesus as the one and only mediator:

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;" 1 Timothy 2:5
"And for this cause he (Christ) is the mediator of the new testament..." Hebrews 9:15

Intercessor

The function of both a mediator and an advocate is to intercede on behalf of others. Catholic tradition assigns this position to Mary, whereas God's Word exalts the Lord Jesus Christ as the only intercessor:

"For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands... but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:" Hebrews 9:24

"Wherefore he (Jesus) is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them." Hebrews 7:25

Scripture could not be any plainer about the identity of the true intercessor:

"... It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us." Romans 8:34
"... he (Jesus) maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God." Romans 8:27

The Bible reveals that anyone who reaches the Father must go through Jesus Christ:

"For through him (Jesus) we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father." Ephesians 2:18
"According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: In whom we have boldness and access..." Ephesians 3:11-12

Mary is never mentioned as an intercessor.

Jesus is degraded again

The Bible is quite definite. Jesus is the only Advocate, Helper, Mediator and Intercessor before the Father. Yet, Catholic tradition strips these four titles away from Him and drops them in Mary's lap instead. Why?

Why is Jesus degraded at every turn? Why is Catholicism determined to take from Jesus everything the Bible attributes to Him and give it to someone or something else?

If Mary is so exalted, why did Bible characters like the Apostle Paul utter words like:

"For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified." 1 Corinthians 2:2

Conclusion

Now you know the positions of both the Bible and Catholic tradition. Will you reject the Word of God and give glory to Mary? Or will you reject the traditions of men and give glory to Jesus Christ?

"But now hath he (Jesus) obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises." Hebrews 8:6

after reading this i relized that i to am on the list. this said i should pray more.

Something beautiful, intelligently written and explained I'd like to share with you, it's awesome information:

1 Corinthians 10:31

"So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God."

The reason the following was written is that the Christian gospel is wonderfully good news. It is wonderful to know it and believe it! It is meant for everybody and everybody needs it, whether they know it or not. And if you care about people, you will want to tell them this good news.

Spontaneity Growing out of Deep Understanding

Our hope is that you receive a firmer grasp of biblical truth, and give you a possible way of making it clear to others. This is by no means the only way to share the gospel. The truth of God must be made plain to people in a thousand acts of love and in words that suit hundreds of different occasions. But many of us have learned that confident spontaneity with unbelievers grows out of firm, deep roots of understanding.

The most creative portrait artist is the one who has labored to master how you draw a chin and a nose and an ear. When the basics are second nature, then real creativity begins. So it is in evangelism. So please don't think we want you to parrot what's here. We want you to grasp it very deeply. We want it to become second nature in your own way of seeing life. And then we want you to speak the good news in love.

Truth #1, "God created us for his glory," based on Isaiah 43:7. In other words if we are going to make the gospel plain, people need to know something of God's power (he is Creator), something of God's greatness (he is glorious—stupendous, awesome, perfect in every way), and something of God's purpose (He aims to make his glory known and admired). So we begin by saying, "God created us for his glory."

Why It Is Important to Begin with God's Glory
Let me summarize why beginning here is so important.

1. The Centrality of God

God is the central reality in the universe. The Bible says that "All things are from him and through him and to him, to him be glory for ever" (Romans 11:36). It says that "all things exist for him and by him" (Hebrews 2:10). Man is not the center of all things. God is. If truth isn't at least on the table for consideration, the rest of the gospel message will be warped to fit our natural self-centeredness.

2. Romans 3:23

When we come to the third point in the gospel, Romans 3:23 will make no sense unless we have begun here with God's purpose to be glorified. Romans 3:23 says, "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Now what would fall short of glory mean, and why would it be a problem unless you had shown that God made us to glorify him, and that we have failed in the very destiny for which we were made? In other words the essence of sin cannot be understood unless you begin with God and his glory. That's why people don't experience contrition like they used to. Sin is seen as what makes me miserable not what offends the glory of God. Our view of sin today is basically psychological not theological. To know what sin is we must begin with God and his great purposes.

3. The Rightness of God's God-Centeredness

It is crucial that we show it is right for God to be God-centered and not man-centered. Many people are happy to let God exist if God will make man the highest value in the universe. But it is crucial to say that God is the most valuable being in the universe. We are quite secondary. And since God is the ultimate value in the universe, it is only right and fitting that he be honest about that; that he tell us so and that for our own good he seek our love and admiration.

Sometimes people ask, why is it right for God to seek his glory, but wrong for us to seek our glory? Why would we be vain and God be righteous? The answer is that God's righteousness and our righteousness are exactly the same—God is righteous to esteem most highly what is most valuable in the universe, namely, God. And we are righteous to esteem most highly what is most valuable in the universe, namely, God. There is no inconsistency here.

Righteousness means having a right response to what is infinitely glorious and perfect. And that is God. For us to be righteous, we must love God with all our heart and soul and mind and strength. For God to be righteous, he too must love HIMSELF with all his heart and soul and mind and strength. Otherwise he would be an idolater. He would be giving supreme devotion to something that does not have supreme value.

What we will see is that the root problem of our human nature is that we do not want God to be God. We want to be God. And one clear piece of evidence for that is how rare the biblical God-centered vision of God is, and how widespread the unbiblical man-centered vision of God is. So I repeat, it is crucial that we lay the truth on the table that God created us for HIS glory and that this is reasonable and right for God to do.

4. Our Purpose for Existing

It is helpful to begin with God's purpose in creation because that tells us why we are here on the earth, and common sense says that if you know what something was made for, you can get more out of it. That's true for your life. If you know that a lawn mower is made for cutting grass and not for a window fan, your life will be happier. And if you know that you are made for God's glory, you will make better use of it and be happier.

That leads us to Truth #2.

Every Human Should Live for God's Glory
Of course Truth #1 and Truth #2 are very closely connected. But they are not the same. Truth #1 starts with God and describes his ultimate design in creating us. Truth #2 shifts from God's design to our duty. Let's read the text and the paragraph of explanation.

Appealing to Scripture and Reason

"So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God" (1 Corinthians 10:31).

If God made us for his glory, it is clear that we should live for his glory. Our duty comes from his design. What does it mean to glorify God? It means that we love Him (Matthew 22:37), trust Him (Romans 4:20), are thankful to Him (Psalm 50:23), and obey Him (Matthew 5:16).

Now at this point you might appeal to Scripture (the verses are listed) or to reason (or common sense), depending on how much common ground you have with someone.

What If Someone Rejects Truth #1?

Let me encourage you not to get bogged down on any one of these truths if someone rejects the truth. Don't think that the only way a person can be persuaded of the truth of Christianity is by moving logically from premise to premise. That is not the way most people function.

Suppose a person says, after you share Truth #1, "I can't buy it. I don't even think there is a God. And the theory of evolution makes all that talk of divine design and divine purpose meaningless." What should you do? Should you give up because you can't even get them to agree to the first foundational truth?

NO! What you should say is something like this: "OK I understand that you don't agree with this first truth. But would you hear me out and let me try to give you the big picture so you can make your judgment based on how it all might fit together?" Then you go on to truths #2 and #3 and so on.

The reason for this is that most of us do not embrace an idea or a cause because we have sorted out all its premises and tested them logically one by one from the most basic on up. Most of us embrace an idea or a cause (or a person!) because the whole thing or some crucial part of it causes lights to go on for us. It gives a flash of insight. It clicks with things we know already. It makes sense out of things that had been confusing or troubling.

In other words if you can get the whole picture—all six truths—into a person's mind, it may be that something in the other five will hit home with such force that they would reconsider their rejection of the first one. Or it may be that later—sometimes much later—a devastating experience will open them to reconsider the truth of these things. If you have given them the whole picture, the Holy Spirit can then apply any part of it to their need. Never think you have spoken God's truth in vain. It does not go out in vain.

So you go on to explain Truth #2. Here's one way to go about it.

God's Command to Glorify Him and God's Love

Truth #1 said that God made us to reflect or display or manifest His glory. We are supposed to be like well-polished mirrors of God's truth to the world. Or like prisms that take the beams of God's greatness and break them up into lots of varied colors for the world to see in our actions and words (Ephesians 3:10; Matthew 5:16).

So that is what every man and woman and child should devote his or her life to. That is why we live. That is our duty. Or you could say, that is God's law.

But for some people—most people—the words "duty" and "law" are not happy words. They tend to sound oppressive and burdensome. So it doesn't sound, then, that God is very loving. That he doesn't have our best interest at heart. Maybe he is so interested in his glory that we don't really count except as slaves to work for him.

That kind of objection has to be met. And it is not hard to meet. You meet it by asking this question: If God is perfect, complete, all-sufficient, infinitely great and glorious, and didn't create us to meet his needs, because he doesn't have any needs, then how do you glorify a God like that?

Not by working for him like a slave. That would give the impression that he is weak or deficient. Not by cowering in uncertainty beneath His power. That would give the impression that he is unstable or capricious or cruel.

How Do You Glorify and All-Glorious God?

How do you bring glory to an all-sufficient, perfect, infinitely beautiful, infinitely wise, infinitely powerful, overflowing God? Here you can use illustrations from ordinary life.

For example, if you want to glorify a beautiful painting, you don't feel a burden to work to improve it. You simply enjoy it. You love it. You talk about it excitedly to your friends. Or if someone makes a wonderful meal and serves it up before you, how do you glorify the excellence of the meal? Not by putting on your apron and going out to the kitchen to make a few more dishes or add a few spices. No. You glorify a perfect meal by eating a lot and by feeling contented and saying, ahhh. In other words if it is your duty to glorify something infinitely beautiful and wonderful, that is no burden. It is a pleasure. In fact when you take from it pleasure, you show it's a treasure.

Or suppose it's your duty to glorify the strength of a new metal alloy that holds up a bridge. How do you glorify the strength of the metal? Not by working hard to provide some extra supports, but by getting in your car with all your family and trusting the bridge with your life as you peacefully drive across without any anxiety. You glorify strength by trusting it not by working to supplement it. So the duty to glorify power is not a burden. It's a restful pleasure.

Or suppose your duty was to glorify someone's generosity. Suppose someone was so rich and so generous that they just spilled over in love and generosity and grace and kindness to you. How would you glorify that quality in them? Not by trying to pay them back. That would turn their kindness into a business deal. It would treat their free gift like a trade. Tit for tat. That would not glorify the wealth of their generosity. No the way to glorify their generosity and their kindness is to be lavish and genuine in your gratitude and thanksgiving. And that is no burden. If you get a billion dollar gift, you do not groan under the duty to feel thankful. It is a pleasure not a hardship.

Finally, suppose it is your duty to glorify someone's great wisdom? Say the wisdom of your coach (if you're on some team) or your counselor (if you are in some kind of therapy)? The answer is that you don't glorify their wisdom by trying strenuously to help them figure out the answer to some problem. You glorify their wisdom by doing what they say. If you want to show that your coach is really wise, you run and do his drills without doubting or grumbling. If you want to glorify your counselor's wisdom, you do his assignments without doubt or grumbling. In other words, glad-hearted obedience glorifies great wisdom. And this is not a burden (1 John 5:3).

God Is Most Glorified in Us When We Are Most Satisfied in Him

Now do you see what all this means? It means that God is love. It means that when he created us for His glory, he also created us for our joy. How so? Because the way He seeks to be glorified in us is by making us satisfied in Him. The good news of Christianity is that God is the kind of God who is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in Him.

In sharing the truth of Christianity, Truth #1 is that God created us for HIS glory. Truth #2 is that this is, therefore, the duty of every man and woman and child—to live for the glory of God. And the wonderful thing is that this duty is not a burden. It is freedom and joy. You glorify God's beauty and excellence by loving it and delighting in it. You glorify God's power by trusting him with all the hard and threatening things in your life. You glorify God's bounty and generosity and kindness and grace by overflowing with gratitude. And you glorify God's wisdom by obeying his counsel. And everybody knows that this is no burden. This is no heavy law. This is love.

God is a God of infinite love because he wills to share all that He is with us for our enjoyment and His glory.

This is the wonderful beginning of Truth and ties in with the beginning of God's Final Warning Message to mankind in Revealtion 14:6-7.

I just want to point out that canyon shearer only made his comment and never returned. He also misquoted Luke 1:47, it never says Mary is a sinner

To Sonofunclesam@gmail.com: Actually Jesus was not a Christian, He was a Jew. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Andrew:

By your logic, Jesus wasn't a Christian.

One more thing about Robespierre: on June 8, 1794, he proclaimed that the Deist Supreme Being was an integral part of the revolution. This was just 6 weeks after he executed all of atheists among the Jacobins.

Robespierre was not an atheist. He was a Deist. Do the research before you pontificate.

Thomas,

Please invite us to your next meeting with the Trinity and/or the Singularity.

The passage in scripture that is referred to as The Lord's Prayer and also the Our Father: Our Father, Who art in Heaven, hallowed be Thy Name, Thy Kingdom come, thy Will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven, give us this day our daily Bread, forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us and lead us not into temptation but deliver us from the evil one. OUR FATHER, as in the Father of the entire human race considering that not only did He create everyone but also everything. WHO ART IN HEAVEN, not only is He in Heaven but He is also putting the finishing touches on the Heavenly Jerusalem not to be confused with the New Jerusalem which is going to go down the tubes just like the Old Jerusalem only more so. HALLOWED BE THY NAME, actually God is Pure Love but from so many of the posts that call themselves christians, you would never know. THY KINGDOM COME, God's Kingdom which will be a Kingdom of Pure Love and it is for all of His children which is ALL OF HUMANITY. THY WILL BE DONE, Like it says in many places in the bible, it is God's Will that ALL BE SAVED, also if all that someone calling themself a christian, cares about is going to the "good place" , how christian is that, considering that on the cross Jesus said, "Father forgive them", there is not an asterick after them, them means ALL OF HUMANITY, we have all done wrong at least I have. ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN, as it says even the forces of evil, satan and his cohorts, are working toward the Will of God even if inadvertantly, besides being a liar and a thief, the deceiver is also a loser. GIVE US THIS DAY OUR DAILY BREAD, this refers not only to that which sustains us physically but also the Eucharist which is the BREAD OF LIFE. FORGIVE US OUR TRESPASSES AS WE FORGIVE THOSE WHO TRESPASS AGAINST US, this is a divine equation, pure and simple, Jesus told us as much. AND LEAD US NOT INTO TEMPTATION, satan is the tempter and like it says when we fall which we all seem to do at times at least I have we can ask for forgiveness, we can go directly to God for forgiveness, the curtain in front of the Holy of Holies has been torn in two, yes the one that so many people are trying to sew back together. BUT DELIVER US FROM THE EVIL ONE, yes satan and his cohorts are real and in God's Plan, All of Humanity will be delivered from all evil that is why we are to be willing and active participants in God's Plan whatever we may have been called or chosen to do. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Ryan,

Literature/passages for your consideration:

Two important observations by Somerville

1. "The faith of the vast majority of believers depends upon where they were born and when."

2. "Religion can bring us to the verge, to the brink, but like Moses, who led his people to the Promised Land, but could not enter in, there is no place for religion in the world to come. Religion is our vehicle for the journey. Once arrived, it will be left at the door."

An important passage from Professor Crossan:

"When I look a Buddhist friend in the face, I cannot say with integrity, "Our story about Jesus' virginal birth is true and factual. Your story that when the Buddha came out of his
mother's womb, he was walking, talking, teaching and preaching (which I must admit is even better than our story)---that's a myth. We have
the truth; you have a lie." I don't think that can be said any longer, for our insistence that our faith is a fact and that others' faith is a lie is, I think, a cancer that eats at the heart of Christianity"

From Father Edward Schillebeeckx, the famous Catholic theologian, his book, Church: The Human Story of God,
Crossroad, 1993, p.91 (softcover)

"Christians must give up a perverse, unhealthy and inhuman doctrine of predestination without in so doing making God the great scapegoat of history" .

"Nothing is determined in advance: in
nature there is chance and determinism; in the world of human activity there is possibility of free choices.

Therefore the historical future is not known even to God; otherwise we and our history would be merely a puppet show in which God holds the strings. For God, too, history is an adventure, an open history for and of men and women."

And for added thought, here is what Professor Crossan has to say about atonement theology: (from his book, "Who is Jesus" co-authored with Richard Watts)

"Moreover, an atonement theology that says God sacrifices his own son in place of humans who needed to be punished for their sins might make some Christians love Jesus, but it is an obscene picture of God. It is almost heavenly child abuse, and may infect our imagination at more earthly levels as well. I do not want to express my faith through a theology that pictures God demanding blood sacrifices in order to be reconciled to us."

"Traditionally, Christians have said, 'See how Christ's passion was foretold by the prophets." Actually, it was the other way around. The Hebrew prophets did not predict the events of Jesus' last week; rather, many of those Christian stories were created to fit the ancient prophecies in order to show that Jesus, despite his execution, was still and always held in the hands of God."

"In terms of divine consistency, I do not think that anyone, anywhere, at any time, including Jesus, brings dead people back to life."

Asim, etal:

Why is it that the writes of the so-called holy books always waited until their respective prophet was dead.

There is no way that those people were able to remember exactly what was said when.

I can only vaguely remember most of the things said to me 20 or 30 years ago and some of them not at all.

I would have a much easier time believing these stories if they had been written right at or immediately after the event had happened.

Asim, etal.:

Why is it that the writes of the so-called holy books always waited until their respective prophet was dead.

There is no way that those people were able to remember exactly what was said when.

I can only vaguely remember most of the things said to me 20 or 30 years ago and some of them not at all.

I would have a much easier time believing these stories if they had been written right at or immediately after the event had happened.

There has been some question on this board as to the meaning of atonement, specifically as it relates to Christ's death as an atonement for the sins of humanity.

I cannot speak to the Protestant understanding(s) of it, though I can say, to me it seems that they accidentally bring in a legalistic understanding of atonement: we broke a (mere) rule; God assigns a punishment, death (when he might have picked a more lenient one); God then allows someone else (Jesus, his Son made flesh) to take the wrap and receive our punishment. That understanding represents a misunderstanding of St Paul's texts, particularly of his letter to the Romans.

The Catholic understanding is this:

1. God created the world not out of need, but as a sheerly free act because he desired to share his life, goodness, joy and love.

2. In creating a world, he freely chose also to create beings that could not only receive his love, but also freely choose to reciprocate it, and thus enter into an even more intense joy.

3. Doing so would draw them more deeply into his life.

4. Among these personal beings, some use their freedom for purposes contrary to reciprocating God's love and sharing his life.

5. Consequently, rather than receiving and returning perfect love and life, they damage those things and participate in selfishness and death. These things, selfishness and death, are not punishments for sin as much as they are the natural consequences of it. They are the only real alternatives available to love and life. We chose, and continue to chose, selfishness and death on a daily paper. You've only to read a newspaper to see that.

6. The consequences of our choices to prefer some other plan to God's own quickly span out of control. The havoc wrecked, and which we continually wreak, is just too immensely great for us to be able to reverse it.

7. Someone capable of voluntarily dying, who need not have done so (else it is not truly voluntary) was needed to enter into the situation freely in order to accept the consequences and responsibility that we continuous dodge (only making the problem worse).

8. This person would need a pretty much unlimited capacity to take hold of the problem because of its immensity. Only God himself has the capacity to take on so much - even a really good human barely has the wherewithal to take responsibility for some of his own blunders and ill-will, let alone the great mass of humanity who are continually trying to minimize or rationalize our failures. Only God could have the power to reverse the implications of such immense catastrophes as murder and abandonment and rape and so on.

9. Yet, for the effects of a reversal to be shared with humanity, there needs to be some kind of common denominator. The savior would need some way of sharing the fruits of the reversal of sin and death with the people who needed that reversal. If he had nothing in common with the limited and material creation, he could not share his accomplishment with them. The redeemer would need to be human, or at least share something of our nature that we could latch onto, as it were.

10. The Word of God is the eternal and transcendent expression or reflection of God's eternal and transcendent being and will, of his self. In the Incarnation, the Word, without losing any of His divinity, takes on human nature (flesh, feelings, weaknesses, and all) in every way except sin. Thus there is a person who is both divine (capable of undoing humanity's massive catastrophe) and human (having some common denominator with the rest of us, by which he can impart to us what he has accomplished). Thus there is a person who can bridge between the Infinite Divine and the Limited Human. Thus there is a person that can reunite us, in his own person, with God from whom we strayed and rebelled by coming up with our own "plan B" which we thought would (and usually still think will) be better than God's Plan of Life and Love. In Jesus Christ, the human and divine are reunited to him. By sharing in his person, we can share in that reunion.

11. Jesus needed to die:
a. To take on the full meaning of human nature
b. So that by resurrecting he could overcome death's supremacy over human nature

Jesus Christ has given those who will receive it the means to overcome the daily action of sin and death in our own lives and relationships. Ultimately he has given those who will receive it the means to overcome the most hideous consequences of sin: the total alienation from neighbor and from God unto death, which we call Hell. In doing so, he gives us who will receive it the means to forgive transgressions, to stop transgressing, to self-sacrifice heroically, so that our relationships can be healed, our lives transformed, and our everlasting joy begun even while we live on earth among sin and death.

I have been experiencing this transformation in my own life, in little but tangible babysteps.

None of that was very precisely stated, but I hope it makes its points clearly enough. If I have not, I apologize, but the points are still true: I can witness to them myself, even if not very clearly.

Concerned the Christian Now Liberated,

From your posts, I am beginning to gather that however you were raised, and whatever was claimed about your upbringing, you were not taught very well the authentic beliefs of the Catholic faith.

For instance, the Church does teach that humans have freedom from mechanistic determinism. It does teach, to be sure, that God has foreknowledge of all things and has predestined all things. But the Church also has an explanation for how predestination and free will do not contradict each other, when each is rightly understood.

A number of times you've referred to "pretty wingy thingies", by which you mean angels/demons. I wonder why those are so important to you. In any event, there is not much I can say or do, I realize, but I am very sorry that you were raised with such an abusive presentation of the Christian faith. If you ever like, you can email me at withouthavingseen at gmail.

Scott G.,

I did not address your main point. Duly noted.

I hadn't intended to, but rather, I intended only to address the point I felt most important.

In your most recent post, you create a strawman - the "God of the Gaps" he is often called. The idea with this strawman is that primitive man invented a god or gods to explain more easily that which otherwise was shrouded by a veil from their senses. Modern man, having used advanced technology to peer deeper into the natural world, has revealed that beyond this curtain their is no god controlling things, but only a natural world operating on deterministic, mechanistic principles. Thus, based on our more developed understanding of the universe, we no longer need "god" to explain thunder.

Well, I cannot speak to what an ancient Germanic may have thought caused thunder, or whether he'd be offended or call me faithless for thinking of an alternative explanation. But I can tell you for certain, and I hope that you will take me as writing in good faith on this one, that my faith in God is not based on gaps in knowledge (though I do have many of those, especially about scientific discoveries).

If you care to inquire as to what my faith in God IS based upon, if not a lack of knowledge of the electromagnetic causes of thunder, you can email me at withouthavingseen at gmail. For the present forum, though, we've already gotten pretty far afield from the designated topic, which was something like "Which scripture verse best summarizes Christianity, in your opinion?"

Rene Zambrano,

How right! I am able, thanks be to God, to get to Holy Mass each morning on my way to work. A friend with several kids told me that for that and other reasons she thought I must be holy. I laughed, and said, "No, just trying. God's given you your means - poopy diapers and runny noses. He hasn't given me those yet; what will become of me if I don't make use of the means that He HAS given me?!"

Social activism and advocacy can be excellent means to express the Christian imperative in the world - for those whose other, more primary duties in life leave them the free time to do so. But God help the working single mother who neglects tenderness toward her children or her diligence in her work, in order to lobby her state legislature on behalf of homeless people.

First things first.

Dan Akroid (sp?) had a great line in SNL years ago, "Jane you ignorant slxt." In refernce to those unbelievers who talk like experts it fits.

For Asim only,

Once again Asim, please address the flaws in the foundations of Islam as noted below:

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was probably a mythical character. If he was real, he was at best a combination of at least three men. 1.5 million Conservative Jews and their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT.

2. Jesus, the illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter possibly suffering from hallucinations, has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth. Analyses of his life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists)via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian/Jewish/Pagan sects.

3. Mohammed, an illiterate, hallucinating Arab, also had embellishing/hallucinating scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the Koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers , the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers , the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani koranics, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases and the Filipino koranics with most of this misery being funded by the third Axis of Evil aka Iran.

4. Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingy thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

5. Hinduism (from an online Hindu site) - "Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centred and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’"

The caste/laborer system and cow worship are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism."

6. Buddhism- "Buddhism began in India about 500 years before the birth of Christ. The people living at that time had become disillusioned with certain beliefs of Hinduism including the caste system, which had grown extremely complex. The number of outcasts (those who did not belong to any particular caste) was continuing to grow."

"However, in Buddhism, like so many other religions, fanciful stories arose concerning events in the life of the founder, Siddhartha Gautama (fifth century B.C.):"

Archaeological discoveries have proved, beyond a doubt, his historical character, but apart from the legends we know very little about the circumstances of his life.

http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/BUDDHISM/SIDD.HTM

Ryan-
You wrote:
** I picked up on the fact that you (admittedly) set about with a brief deconstruction of the underlying reason that most people believe in those old religions: fear of discoverying unpleasant truths. So, I returned the favor and deconstructed the underlying reason that someone might be an atheist. Then I preceded to my main point: neither of those deconstructions addresses the real question... "Does God exist?"**

I understand what you are trying to make, and I fear that we are trying to make separate points- so I think it's a little uncalled for to admonish me to reread your posts slowly. Just because you claim to have returned a favor doesn't mean that you have, in fact, deconstructed the underlying reason that someone might be an atheist. Sure, there are lots of reasons- just like there are lots of reasons that someone is a theist. But really, the sole reason I posted at all is because I got my hackles up from this statement from the author: **Likewise, the Marxist utopia failed in part because its corrosive atheism lacked a connection to the yearning of the human spirit for transcendence** I took offense at this seemingly tidy description of atheistic ideas and it's inevitable mention along side of Marxism. Now, Gary Roth posted a very thoughtful response to my comments:

** I think the point in what he says about Marxism is simply that Marx took his idea of a utopian community from the Bible (which is true - actually, his father was a pastor). The writer sees Marx's problem as that of cutting off the roots of his utopian ideal by separating it from the Christianity out of which that ideal arose. The resulting athiestic form of communism had no spiritual root, and thus succumbed easily to a materialistic view and authoritarian rule. Certainly that is a debatable point. But communism, itself, was an important expression of the early Christian community, which, understanding that they were "one body," took the words of Paul in that regard very seriously, and so shared all things in common so that all might be provided for, and none might be lacking. For one to lack, meant that the whole body was weakened.**

Gary's post addressed my statement directly and thoughtfully.

The fear I spoke of concerns reexamining long held believes that can, for many people, become untenable in the face of our current understanding of the universe. I said long held beliefs and current understanding- that doesn't mean that I have my own neat and tidy answer- or that we should stop trying to answer those questions. As to the question of god's existence-a question which I was not trying to directly answer- realize that if I don't believe in a god that has a "personal relationship" with me and I don't have a clue as to what may or may not be there, then practically speaking I am an atheist. It has nothing to do with, as you put it ** The unconscious psychology underlying a response to the question does not actually answer the question, but rather, avoids it**. I merely don't have reason to believe in that kind of god- just like, by now, you have no reason to believe that thunder is caused by the god Thor. I'm sure that the ancient germanic people that held that belief wouldn't take too kindly to you trying to explain to them about clouds generating massive static electric discharges which superheat the surrounding atmosphere to cause sudden shock waves. Would they say you lacked faith? Or insulted the wisdom of their elders?

Asim,

" No merciful God would crucify "his son" for the sins of others-what ever happened to God's justice of taking every human being individually by on his own merits,good and bad deeds as thecase may be."

How much good deeds do you need to do to go to Paradise? And what about sin? If you sin, then how is that accounted for. Is it a meritous system, where if you sin, it counters a good deed and so on so forth? I would believe that that would be an impossible faith to follow.

Asim, so if Islam is the absolute truth then is it ok to beat your wife? Is that absolute truth and absolute moral.

"As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly)..." (Qur'an, 4:34)

And if lying is ok, then what type of morals should we live by?

"Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, "O Allah's Apostle! Would you like that I kill him [Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf]?" The Prophet said, "Yes," Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, "You may say it," (Hadith Vol. 5, Book 59, #369).

If Islam is absolute truth, then I want no part of it. But it is not. It is false and headed by a false prophet named Mo. There is no proof of Allah. No miracles recorded, no prophecy. Why would I believe in a book with nothing for proof, lying is ok, and beating my wife is ok? Naw. I think I'll stick to the real absolute truth my friend. Jesus.

Viejita del Oeste,

Clearly! Thank you for pointing that out! The proof of our transformation in Christ is a new way of acting externally that reflects the new person Christ has made us into internally. It means that while we will still be recognizably the same, we will also be very, very different. We will do the same old things with new motivations, and we will do new things we couldn't have understood before. By being made into a new person, we will do quite a bit to help make a new world.

My only point was that Jesus isn't looking to do some top-down grand plan of legislated reform enforced by educational schemes. He doesn't think like we do. He loves little things, and works gently, gently. No coercing or tricking - not Jesus. He doesn't think like we do and isn't primarily interested in concepts like "society" or "social welfare." He's concerned about real, specific individuals (all of us) in concrete ways, and wants us to be too. The rest needs to flow out of that or else it will just be activism and political rallying.

That's all.

Being a bred, born and brainwashed Catholic, I am slowy healing/recovering from the "cult" with the writings of James Somerville, Philosopy Professor Emeritus, Xavier University, Cincinnati, Ohio:

1. "The faith of the vast majority of believers depends upon where they were born and when."

2. "Religion can bring us to the verge, to the brink, but like Moses, who led his people to the Promised Land, but could not enter in, there is no place for religion in the world to come. Religion is our vehicle for the journey. Once arrived, it will be left at the door."

And the conclusions of Father Edward Schillebeeckx, the famous contemporary Catholic theologian:

From his book, Church: The Human Story of God,
Crossroad, 1993, p.91 (softcover)

"Christians must give up a perverse, unhealthy and inhuman doctrine of predestination without in so doing making God the great scapegoat of history" .

"Nothing is determined in advance: in
nature there is chance and determinism; in the world of human activity there is possibility of free choices.

Therefore the historical future is not known even to God; otherwise we and our history would be merely a puppet show in which God holds the strings. For God, too, history is an adventure, an open history for and of men and women."

And from the realism of Professor JD Crossan,

(from his book, "Who is Jesus" co-authored with Richard Watts)

"Moreover, an atonement theology that says God sacrifices his own son in place of humans who needed to be punished for their sins might make some Christians love Jesus, but it is an obscene picture of God. It is almost heavenly child abuse, and may infect our imagination at more earthly levels as well. I do not want to express my faith through a theology that pictures God demanding blood sacrifices in order to be reconciled to us."

"Traditionally, Christians have said, 'See how Christ's passion was foretold by the prophets." Actually, it was the other way around. The Hebrew prophets did not predict the events of Jesus' last week; rather, many of those Christian stories were created to fit the ancient prophecies in order to show that Jesus, despite his execution, was still and always held in the hands of God."

"In terms of divine consistency, I do not think that anyone, anywhere, at any time, including Jesus, brings dead people back to life."

HeyYOU,
Your scriptures have been doctored long ago and corrupted by ignorant close-minded self-serving radicals like you-so there is no cerdibilty in you putting words in God's mouth.

The Quran is the only revealed scrpiture that came down to us exactly as it was revealed-early Muslims realized and learned from the corrupted and altered scriptures of Christians and Jews and therefore put the Quran down in writing immediately after the death of the Prophet; untold number of Muslim generations from the era of the Prophet to this very day-have memorized the Quran by heart in prefect Arabic-there is at least one original copy of the Quran in the Russian national musem in Moscow.

In the process of corrupting and altering the Jewish and Christian scriptures,the original truth revealed to Abraham, Moses and Jesus was lost, that is Islam or pure Monothiesm.The Quran has the absolute and all the truth; other faiths have some of that truth because of the doctoring of their sciptures.

Unlike other Prophets burried beneath the rubble of history, the Prophet Muhammad,as Ernest Renan the French historian and orientalist concluded: "Came in full day light of history." Every minute detail about his life from his birth untill death,is fully known. So the Quran was revealed in such crystal clear miliue-no secrets and no mystries.

Thou the Quran is a book of guidance and salvation for all humanity, it has abundance of scientific facts and Modern Science fully supports all the known scientific facts discovered in the Quran so far-which Muhammad could never have known 1500 years ago.

Three concrete facts that can not be denied prove my point:The Jews would have never denied the mission of Jesus and his saint mother Mary,if their scrpitures were not doctored and corrupted; the Christians would have never invented the trinity myth,were not for the corruption of the teachings of Jesus-who never claimed to be other than a Prophet of God and not his son.
Both the Jews and Christians knew of the coming of the Prophet Muhammad before his mission: God says in the old testeament to the Jews: "I will raise from thy bretheren a Prpohet-meaning Muhammad from the line of Ishmael-and his off spring will multiply like the stars in the sky." By Jews I mean the original decdents of Isaac,and they are no more any longer-except the Jews who still live in the Arab world.

In the suppressed gosbel of saint Barnabis written originally in Greek,there is a clear concrete prophecy of the coming of Muhammad,but that bible has always been suppressed and is not even allowed in circulation.

It is my duty as a Muslim to put these facts before your eyes so your mind and heart can take them in and comprehend them.

Unlike you, I can not engage in name calling: in your state of unbelief,I doubt whether we will ever cross baths later;however I can not make that judjment-which is God's alone-for he might show you the light and right way to salvation and restore your heart thru your mind,thru reason and rartional refelction the ultimate truth, Islam.

Heyyou-

I expect to see Mary on judgement day next to her Son. I know which name to call ...the same one she calls...the name upon which every tongue shall confess and every knee shall bow.

So now that we have an understanding on that matter, just what do you have against asking any of the saints to help you lead a holy life- least among them Mary who was the earthly tabernacle of the Lord, the new Eve?

If God commanded us to honor our mother and father and God the Father honored Mary setting her apart to be the Incarnation of the Word (not a small thing), why wouldn't anyone set her apart honoring her and ask for a share of what God has given to her? Do you not believe or practice intersesory prayer?

Respectfully-

Ryan, wouldn't you agree that part of our personal transformation would have to be greater concern for others? I agree that the Gospels do not call for political action, but I'd like to think that a society with a truly Christian heart would be much more communitarian than the current materialistic, celebrity-worshipping ethos.

Tim, AMEN!

We make a very serious mistake about the Gospel if we take it to be a program of social action. It is not that, and using it for that purpose is like using a cookbook to build a house. Bad idea all around.

The Gospels proper present, each somewhat differently, portraits of the life, death, and resurrection of a Jew from Nazareth named Jesus (in Greek). He taught a lot of stuff, and each gospel writer included in his version what they had heard reported, or could remember of what they saw themselves. Most of what Jesus of Nazareth was not very new. His moral teachings certainly weren't. The golden rule exists not only in every culture, in one form or another, but in every decent soul. It is written on men's hearts, St. Paul tells us, and if we dig around we will likely find it there ourselves. Even his exhortations to mercy and humility are found on every page of the Hebrew Scriptures. Because the fact that moral decency comes, generally speaking, naturally to most people, and thus to most religions, some fairly unreligious men in the 18th century (assuming that morality was the purpose of all religions) started spreading around the idea that most religions were basically the same. But they are not, and to say they are insults the intelligence of 90% of the worlds people, who belong to one religion believing that they do not belong to the others.

And there are differences.

What they Jews taught that was different was that they, each individually, had been chosen by God by accident of birth to be specially chosen in some important way. They still (I mean this quite seriously) haven't quite seemed to have figured out in what way they were special. But special they were, and the hints of how are in their Scriptures, and special they remain (at least Christians are obligated to believe).

What Jesus taught that was different was that he WAS God. He acted like it, he spoke like it, he did the sorts of things that only God could do, he finally claimed it, and he even defended the claim in controversies that erupted because of his claims to divinity. These incidents are all over the Gospel, and the attempts to cut them out, work around them, or to avoid their obvious meaning and import all verge on comical. Scholars who do so set themselves up as authoritative over the Scriptures to which they claim to give primacy. Having done so, they cut and paste to make "Jesus" answer whatever questions they consider important, and they provide the answers for him! These "historical" Jesuses are shockingly, blatantly ahistorical - in fact, they are anachronistic. There weren't feminists, liberationists, social justice advocates, or any such thing 2000 years ago. There just weren't. Real historians know that. But the historical Jesus goofs aren't trained historians.

They all miss the real point. St John explains it most clearly, of the gospel writers. St Paul spells it out even clearer. By dying and resurrecting in his human flesh, Jesus destroys deaths power over human flesh. Any who will be united to him in the ways he prescribes, and all are invited, can through our shared (with him) human nature be united to him in his. Thus having a common denominator between us, he is able to impart his divine life to us: healing all sorts of wounds (spiritual and material), transforming us beyond ourselves, and empowering us to acheive even greater things than he did while on earth (according to his own words!).

It begins with the humble (and theoretically obvious) admission that we are not gods, and in fact, are not even (most of us) particularly good. Rather, we are mostly a bundle of mixed motivations wrapped around a self-protective and selfish ego. This admission is the hard part, because we each want to be adults, "big kids" if you will, and we each want to be in control of our own lives. It is only in submission to Him, as a patient to his doctor, that we can begin to experience the healing and transformation he wants to work on us. He can do it almost all on his own - all he needs of us is that we voluntarily submit to the treatment, even when it is unpleasant.

The devil, coinincidentally, works by deception and force: a liar and a murderer from the beginning, our Lord called him. He has a big plan, and he KNOWS its best, and he is going to MAKE it work. This kind of thinking creeps in everywhere - even Christians, someone on wp.com aptly pointed out, have been known to burn down whole villages (in order to save them!).

In inviting us each to receive personal transformation, he fully intends to change the world. That also is written all over both the Jewish and Christian Scriptures. He will do it in his own way, and without coercion or force, knowing full well that some (many?) will refuse - up until the last moment, when the final consummation of all things comes. Still, he works by invitation. And as we accept the invitation and receive deeper and deeper transformation, little bits of that New Earth where peace and justice are at home start to manifest around us and through us. If we do it well enough, others might be inspired to join in.

That's the Gospel message. If you don't believe me, I BEG you to read any one of the four canonical gospels and any one of Paul's letters to an early Christian community. Don't read the commentaries - just the texts. Maybe say a prayer to "whoever is out there" that "He/She/It" will give you clarity and insight into their authentic meaning.

Asim, your religion is the last world war. God, the Father of Abram said Himself, "Ishmael will be a wild ass of a man and the worlds hand will be against him and his hand will be against the world. You lose Asim. Abram left Ur with Sarai NOT Hagar. God said, "From YOUR body will come the Promise." Abram was married to Sarai NOT Hagar. Hagar was a mistake. A sin that has caused the world SO much trouble BUT all in God's plan. See you on judgement day. I can't wait!!

The Lord Jesus Christ King of all who call themselves king and Lord of all who call themselves lord will destroy the muslim world with the breath of His mouth. Take THAT to the bank Asim.

And btw Asim, your going to find out the origional quote was 70 Virginians NOT virgins.

Scott G,

Please reread our posts slowly. My main point was not a pretense at knowing anything about you. I picked up on the fact that you (admittedly) set about with a brief deconstruction of the underlying reason that most people believe in those old religions: fear of discoverying unpleasant truths. So, I returned the favor and deconstructed the underlying reason that someone might be an atheist. Then I preceded to my main point: neither of those deconstructions addresses the real question. The real question is, "Does God actually exist?" The unconscious psychology underlying a response to the question does not actually answer the question, but rather, avoids it.

I might have made that point more clearly, and perhaps in a way less easily misinterpreted. Please accept my apologies for that.

HeyYOU,
Besides your dire need to do some serious reading about Islam in order to shed off your profound ignorance and fabrications,
WHO on God's earth ever appointed you as the official spokesperson for Muslims? Muslims believe unequivocally in the one and only God there is: the God of Abraham, Moses and Jesus.
Islam means the total submission of a believer to the well of the One God-absolutely pure monotheism,no sons and no daughters. It follows that all the prophets above are Muslims. Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Christian in faith, he was a Muslim. HE had two sons: the older is Ishmael from his first wife Hager, the father of the Arabs and Isaac his younger son from Sara and the father of the Jews.
Abraham was naturally neither a Jew nor a Christian because he predates them-but a pure monotheist submitting to the well of the creator-broadly speaking a Muslim like Moses,Jesus and Muhammad.

The archangel Gabriel was only the medium that spoke to Abraham, Hajer, Muhammad on behalf of God-and Muslims don't worship an angel,they worship God the creator of heaven and earth.

Jesus never claimed to be a son of God-this is blasphemous to both Jews and Muslims; Jews reject Jesus totally thou he was one of their own-so much the so called Judo-Christian hertiage; Muslims believe as an integral article of their faith in Jesus as a Prophet of God and in his saint mother and the virgin birth: Mary is very revered by Islam and she is the only female to be addressed by name in the Quaran in the Chapter of Mary/Meriam, which is a moving narrative of the virgin birth.

The trinity is a corruption of monotheism:more of a popularized misconception confusion of mixing Jesus’ teaching with the prevailing Greek mythology at the times. No merciful God would crucify "his son" for the sins of others-what ever happened to God's justice of taking every human being individually by on his own merits,good and bad deeds as thecase may be.

Brian,

That was not me with the repeat posts, but I do know it just happens sometimes.

Ryan,

I am referring to Canyon's rants in other threads over the weeks. Look in the archives at the weeks where they had Catholic specific topics. He insists that the Pope is in hell for being an idolator, and "edits" information from the Vatican website to "prove" his point. He even tells a kid he's going to hell for being Catholic.

My post above is referring to him in that more general sense.

In fact I agree with you above.

Mr.Stevens-Arroyo,
These are really true and profoudn words of wisdom:"“Where tyranny is law, revolution is order.” Also and by the same token: "Where radical oppression and repression by dictaorship,despotism, together with external intervention,terrorism and violnece exists." Iraq is a case in point.
I wish the human race can understand, internalize and reflect on these words of widom-especially dictators and imperial powers.

OH JESUS MARIA SMALL (ABOVE) HOW DID YOU FIND OUT ALL THIS BS ?? WHAT THE HELL HAVE YOU BEEN SMOKING DUDE?? GET A LIFE AND RUN AWAY FROM ALL THAT HOKUS POKUS !

How sad to see hostility in so many of these posts. God loves us, every one of us, with a depth we cannot comprehend, and He wants us to love Him and each other. It is only through an open and loving heart and the utmost humility that we may know and do His will. May He grant to each of us the wisdom and strength to do better.

To ALMADEN and the rest of the world: I am a catholic and I cherish my catholic faith, and I also do not worship Mary but I do honor Mary for her Yes and for her living it. You said that Jesus said no one comes to God except thru Him, that is NOT what He said, what He said was: "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the FATHER except thru Me". There is a world of difference between the two statements. Considering that Jesus also said, "I will send the Holy Spirit to guide you into all Truth", well there is the TRINITY, I have met the Trinity. Another thing Jesus said was, "satan is the prince of this world but I have overcome the world", if we weren't so deaf and blind maybe we could hear and see what Jesus so simply tried to tell us and is still trying to tell us. Be ready, night is fast approaching but the dawning of the seventh day will also get here. God, Who is a Trinity of Love, wins, satan who is a liar and a thief and a loser, loses, a tie is unacceptable. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

I see a call for social justice and nothing more.

All that Catholic bashing is not relevant to the man's comments.

For a series of articles by WP and Newsweek that are meant to promote better understanding and dialog between both faithful and unbelievers, I thin a great many of the previous comments prove that a lot of folks just weren't listening at all.

If you are that "closed channel" in your thinking then why bother to speak of your faith or lack thereof at all?

Ryan, yes "The Gospel, and Jesus Christ, are shockingly silent about the depravities of the social orders in which they are situated." Several of the commentators have used this particular question to make political or social kind of judgements. As you have indicated, this is a wrong application of a spritual message for healing the inner man and providing for our salvation. All else will follow once the inner man is healed by the power of Christ, as a peacemaker is born and a child of God.

Anonymous said, "What kind of god requires the"

The Gospel is to the wise of this world foolishness and Apostle Paul also said you can't believe because the devil has blinded your eyes so that you can't see the beauty of the Gospel of God.

Herb Stahlke, the moslems do not worship the God of Abraham, they worship the angel Hagar talked to in the wilderness. The God of Abraham promised Abraham a son THROUGH Sara NOT Hagar. God kept His promise and the nation of Israel was birthed through Sara, a barren womb. How awesome.

Korry, call on Mary on Judgement day and you will stand alone.

Gary Roth, what bible are you reading? Mary, the mother of the man Jesus was not at the tomb. Are you trying to deceive people?