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Outdated Baby Boomer Hippies make me sick. At least they are graying fast and will be put out to pasture in the next two decades.

Priests disgust me.I wouldn't let my kids anywhere near one.And there's no way I'd let any of them
go to a church of any kind.
But thankfully they don't want to go.They already seem to realize that God is just a myth,and that you can never trust a priest.

Victoria,

There you go again, on and on about trivia. Conclusion: You continue in your mode of Islamic "yackity yack language" never addressing the errors in the foundations of Islam, errors that are feeding the koranic terror crazies.

Start by simply admitting that angels are myths therefore big Mo had no contact with God and all koranic references to such contact are in error.

I doubt even B16 still believes in angels. At least B16, however, has not enlisted any terrorists to further his cause of "sole soul" salvation and/or a return to the language of the Roman Slave Empire. Of course, his operating manual preaches peace on earth unlike the Muslims and their book of death

Victoria
I can only go by my experience of attending masses in Spanish and Polish. I am not a devotee of the Latin Mass but I think it makes some people feel comfortable the way classic rock does.
I fear you are correct about the pope's motives. In addition to trying to separate us from those of other faiths, he is also trying to get us to be more obedient. That horse is already out of the barn and munching on clover....

im not sure about the internalization of the mass viejita del oeste-

even if the formula is learned, there is no translation provided in latin mass-

even if someone has every single word of the english mass memorized- (for instance, i do) it is still impossible to match it up with the latin.

and finally, what is the purpose?
to what end is this done?

i think the motivations are not as benign as simply placating the traditionalists-

i think the pope is really trying to create a schism between all other faiths and catholicism.

finally i think he is trying to leave his mark on the papacy.

The important point:

There is no religion in the Spirit State aka Heaven. The Gate is open to anyone of good standing with or without the assistance of B16 and/or Latin Masses.

It only takes about a year of regular mass attendance to internalize the order of the mass in whatever language. BUt I too am troubled by what seems like an attempt to placate the traditionalists at the price of possibly shutting down ecumenical dialogue.

"The thing about the Latin Mass is that no matter what Catholic Church you are in the world you can follow the mass and know exactly what is being said."

Or, no matter where you are, no one in the congregation knows what's being said without a manual, and the endless flipping back and forth of pages that creates a barrier to community.

As a former altar server, I remember all too clearly the pre-Vatican II mass -- not the one of retro dreams and opera-loving elitists, but the one of a blue collar parish in a blue collar city, where from one season to the next the gospel was NOT proclaimed (in a language anyone understood), the poor did NOT have the good news preached to them, and far more anxiety went in the direction of a dropped consecrated host than in the direction of, say, schooling the poor, feeding the hungry, or working to right injustice.

It's a shame that Benedict has worked so hard to reconcile with recalcitrant traditionalists, who'll start disputing about the theological equivalent of the infield fly rule.

The only thing more ludicrous is that the Post continues to provide digital ink to Chuck Colson, who would do a lot better to reread Matthew 6:6 ("But when you pray, go to your inner room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret.")

Oh, silly me -- that's the New American Bible, not the King James Version that Jesus waves around during His radio broadcasts...

"At least B16, however, has not enlisted any terrorists to further his cause of "sole soul" salvation and/or a return to the language of the Roman Slave Empire."

Of course, going back to the declaration that only his church is the true church, and no one else will be 'saved,' (part of the same decree)

...he's gone ahead and given a lot of potential terrorists the requisite divisions, dehumanization of others, and 'righteous cause' to go ahead and do what they do.

Victoria,

You are a Muslim. You go on and on about trivia. Conclusion: You continue in your mode of Islamic "yackity yack language" never addressing the errors in the foundations of Islam, errors that are feeding the koranic terror crazies.

Start by simply admitting that angels are myths therefore big Mo had no contact with God and all koranic references to such contact are in error.

I doubt even B16 still believes in angels. At least B16, however, has not enlisted any terrorists to further his cause of "sole soul" salvation and/or a return to the language of the Roman Slave Empire. Of course, his operating manual preaches peace on earth unlike the Muslims and their book of death.

ccnl-
are you so desparate to find fault that you comment on things that are not even being discussed?

do you really have nothing intelligen to offer on the subject?

I am not islamic you goofball im a muslim
my dress is islamic (well my hijab anyway the rest are indistuinguishable from any other american clothes)

and we are talking about language and cahtolicism

and if its so trivial, why are you wasting so much time talking about it?

ccnl-
are you so desparate to find fault that you comment on things that are not even being discussed?

do you really have nothing intelligen to offer on the subject?

I am not islamic you goofball im a muslim
my dress is islamic (well my hijab anyway the rest are indistuinguishable from any other american clothes)

and we are talking about language and cahtolicism

and if its so trivial, why are you wasting so much time talking about it?

Victoria,

You are Islamic. You go on and on about trivia. Conclusion: You continue in your mode of Islamic "yackity yack" never addressing the errors in the foundations of Islam, errors that are feeding the koranic terror crazies.

Start by simply admitting that angels are myths therefore big Mo had no contact with God and all koranic references to such contact are in error.

concerned-

what?

did anything i had to say constitute islamic yackity yack?

can you even read?

in the words of bugs bunny-

what a maroon!

I think my observation on this is that far from these latest decrees preventing schism, they ensure it: Latin Masses are not the only part of Vatican II this Pope is trying to roll back: frankly, the Church has traditionally held up Vatican II as a *reason* the institution isn't backward, medieval, and out of touch with modern values:

In electing this Pope as well as other moves, the Church has clearly decided to side with reactionary elements... I think they'll find that the more progressive elements who have managed to maintain loyal to the Church despite its recent backwardness on social issues, political interference, and denying women a role in the associated church life ...may find that this 'line drawn in the sand' shows them where they stand.

Let's not forget that along with this comes the insistence that non-Catholic neighbors are once again 'damned' and spiritually-inferior.

I don't think that's going to fly. Or prove to be 'uniting.'

Frankly, I was bracing for this kind of thing to start tearing apart my relatives pretty rapidly, ...guess my folks really have learned to not be all that scared for me.

Again, I think Latin's pretty, but it's a move to take Church power further from the people, and to try and be more aggressive, I think, when they should be being more in tune with modern values and modern, pluralistic societies.

This is about the institution much more than the language. As seems to be a pattern.

Fact is, the Vatican wants to say that even Protestants must be going to Hell, ...almost no one's going to believe that. Going back from Vatican II in general is only going to make people face the fact that they don't believe the authorities when they start calling people 'bad.'

Victoria,

More and more Islamic "yackity yack" from you!!!!

You know the problems with Islam, the foundations. Address them honestly (i.e. Gabriel did not talk or bring anything to Mohammed since angels are myths), historically (Mohammed was illiterate and had no idea what was written in the koran) and realistically (the koran was written by warmongering (just like Mo), Arabic scribes who had a militaristic agenda to conquer and pillage all the lands of the non-believers). The agenda remains as shown by the recent conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK.

Again address the issues with the foundations of Islam and then maybe we might listen to your history/problems with Latin (or Arabic).

Whether it's the politics of the Roman Catholic Church or the politics of the world on nations, Benedict is a reactionary and destructive force. One can only hope that his faithful flock will see his human flaws through the veneer of infallibility.

In his seminal book "Contantine's Sword," published in the year 2000, James Carroll, a former priest, took the trouble to insert a chapter of less than ten pages, warning of the retrograde spectre of Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger.

Now that he's become the Pope and launched the Holy See on a sea of reaction, distrust, intolerance, and hate, I can only comment: WHAT DID YOU EXPECT FROM A FRIGGIN' NAZI?

First establish your prayer life, then you will be in the position to judge the Latin Mass. If you're prayer life is as bad as mine, then just SHUT UP.

Speaking latin that the masses don't understand make the flock more dependent on the clergy for eternal salvation. Benedict is taking the Catholic Church backwards to give his clergy more power and mytic. But being "wounded" as a non-Catholic, what could I possible believe that is right anyway. Congratulations Catholics, you're going backwards thanks to your new German Pope.

the opera analogy was an interesting one, but at the core of it is an artist trying to express something-

no matter how beautifully uplifted one may feel after a particular piece of music, the brain will become stultified if it is forced to hear it over and over again without comprehension

correct me please if i am mistaken-

this reduces the entire spiritual experience to a pleasant if not redundant reverie.

that itself seems a shallow self indulgent excuse for worship

i cant make the long stretch from a dead language bringing 'freshness' to worship

the most i guess one can hope for is some have a nostalgic remebrance of hearing the latin mass in their youth (having been pretty much done away with for 40 years) and sentimental attachment to the memories it elicits.

but as for relevance or freshness today-
it just seems like a politcal coalescance of mother church against other faiths, and seems to be more divisive than whatever slim value it may contain.

also the panelist is projecting his own limited latino experience and trying to validate it by claiming other ethnic groups do the same.

ive never seen any evidence of this in any congregation of distinct ethnicity-

he suspects incorrectly, and if pagans utilize the gaelic (there is no language called celtic)
i dont see what that has to do with the price of tea in china.

Vatican II put Latin in its
proper place, a historic "no longer functional" language of the Roman Slave Empire.

B16 appears to be short on funds and is appealing to the likes of Opus Dei and US Catholic "AARPeers" for support by "going Latin" again. Maybe Pontius will make another appearance!!!!

Geeees. HEE Heee. HEEE. LOL LOL LOL.

Guys there isnt any one up there. Let me correct myself. THERE IS NO UP THERE THERE. Much less some one up there. This guy Nazinger says now you cxan pray in Latin??? a dead language, and half the world find out that someone starched their nickers. Who is this idiot that you all give so much credence to. Trust me he puts on his pants, (well if he wears one) one leg at a time just like you and me. You se what kind of nonsense you need to rationalize once you start believing in superstition. Why in the hell does Latin hold such an importance. Obviously Jesus could not have spoken in it. For sure the god of the jews couldnt have a soft corner for latin, language of the infidel romans. So why should you care. This is all too funny to me. This guy nazinger to me sounds like a looney bin variety bigot to me. I say ask him (as our dear VP would say) go self fornicate.

http://www.uvm.edu/~classics/latindays/latinday2001/syrus.html

Can "Organized Religion" Be Free of "Organized Politics"?

Latin is to Catholicism as Hebrew is to Judaism. The idea of a sacred language is an appealing one to me. A sacred language gives a constant freshness to what is being said. Given that the Catholic mass remains largely the same from day to day, I can't imagine learning a little Latin would tax anyone's brain. Anyway, the Latin mass is an acquired taste. You can appreciate it over time, but it's certainly not necessary. Unfortunately, many Tridentine mass supporters are also right-wingers who believe Vatican II destroyed the Catholic Church and only by abolishing Vatican II can the Church rise again. However, I certainly don't think liberal Catholics should cede the beauty of the Latin mass to these idiots.

Latin in the Church is the language of my childhood, in the breathless, hot days of summer in the deep south when the altar candles shimmered in the early morning heat and the drops of holy water were cool upon the face. We now live in the most literate age the world has known. When the Mass is in Latin on one page and in English on the facing page, what have we lost? Nothing. While the Mass in English is my preference, why not take a step out of the modern world now and again and enjoy the Mass of our youth, hearing the communal prayers in the Universal language and the majestic music of Latin liturgy and hymn which is a part of our heritage? Perhaps we should be more concerned with dogmatic rigidity, clerical hierarchialism, and the continued diminution of women in the Church than hearing the Mass in Latin now and again.

The thing about the Latin Mass is that no matter what Catholic Church you are in the world you can follow the mass and know exactly what is being said. It is very inclusive.
The sermon is in the language of the country but that is only a small part of the Mass. You can still participate in the Consetration - which is the most important part of the Mass.
And for those of you not Catholic - when you go to a Latin Mass you follow along in a special book that is called a Missal. On one side of the page there is the Mass in Latin and on the other it is in your own language. You take the Missal with you when you travel so you always have your own translation with you.

END SCHISM:
worship the creator not the creation.

There can be no doubt about this one. The Pope has made the proper decision. It has long been known that nothing goes with magic quite as well as a dead language.

I have been studying catholic doctrines and history for over 30 years. What the Pope is doing is "DOUBLE BREATH OF VERY FRESH AIR." Way to go PAPA. Thank you for leading us to green pastures. Many will complain, but that's expected.

I really believe restoring the old rite of Mass has as much to do with improving ecumenical relations with the Orthodox, as it does with reconciling with Traditionalists. The Orthodox consider themselves the One True Church, similarly to the Catholics. When Rome suppressed the old liturgy, which traces back to the 6th century, it came to believe that Rome severed its last link with Orthodoxy.

The Novus Ordo also is a bone of contention with the 20 million Eastern-rite Catholics who preserved their liturgical traditions in spite of the Vatican II revolution. Byzantine-rite Catholics, Coptic-rite Catholics and Armenian-rite Catholics, for example, never adopted Mass facing the people. As a Melkite Catholic, I have heard many jokes over the years saying the Latin Catholics have converted to Protestantism because the Novus Ordo looks like a Protestant service.

Had the Catholic Church done things right, it could have looked to the Anglo-Catholics as an inspiration for implementing Vatican II's liturgical reforms. A lot of Catholics find the current rites banal and uninspiring, and the old Roman rite provides them the sense of the sacred they want.

I just wish the Novus Ordo would be replaced with a vernacular Tridentine Mass similar to what many Anglo-Catholic parishes have done for over 100 years.

Norrie
Amen. Or should I say "Omein" (oroginal language and all.

If Mary Cunningham, that strict enforcer of internet ettiquette, is allowing herself to double-post, then I claim the same privilege. [The following are from Father Resse's blog]:

"As a non-Christian antagonistic to the Vatican and all its doctrines, I think those who promote the Latin Mass have the better argument.

It's like opera. Take an opera in a language that you don't understand. You hear an extraordinary aria which is thrilling and uplifting, and inspires you to value your life more fully.

Then, later, you hear the same opera in English and learn that the words are: "I went into the grocery and bought a loaf of bread".

I love to hear a Latin Mass and find the English version disappointing.

A hint to the Vatican: just as you'll attract more flies with honey than with vinegar, you'll catch more converts with Latin than with English."

lepidopteryx then posted:

"Not being Catholic, or even Christian, maybe I'm missing something here, but what's the point of conducting a worship service in a language that few, if any, of the worshippers understand?

"I know a few words of German, but if I only ever watched Himmel uber Berlin without the subtitles, all I would know is that it's got something to do with angels and trapeze artists. I would miss the finer points of the story."

My reply:

"But, Lepidopterix, if you go to Mass you know the story before you get there - you don't need to understand the words that are being said and sung.

"The deepest part of religion is the emotional dimension, and, curiously, the Latin Mass generates more feeling in me than the English.

"I think that's because, in hearing English words, you're using the left side of your brain (intellect), while in hearing music without meaningful words, you're using the right side of your brain (emotion)."

PS..

Re: Norman "the most intelligent layman writing about Catholic affairs..."

Should have added our own professor, Mr Stevens-Arroyo, as a great laity spokesman on Catholic affairs !

'Pace' professor:
mea culpa,
mea culpa,
mea maxima culpa.

VDO,

I think you will like Edward Norman, probably the most intelligent layman writing about religious and Catholic affairs today. And if you also love art along with the history, you might also buy Norman's "The Roman Catholic Church: an Illustrated History."

Norman is a great historian, writes beautifully, understands the Church (to which he came late), and some of the pictures are glorious!

There is a beautiful image of Our Lady of Guadalupe as well. It is a luminous book.

Regards,
Mary C.

Mary Cunningham,
You are exactly right. I've been fooling myself in thinking that I ever really accepted the pope's authority. One of the best things about the Church is its absolute consistency, and I love the Latin mass when it is done well -- or any mass when it is done well. I love the rigor of Catholic teachings, but this is one part I've just never been able to get my teeth into. I am willing to be judged, but something in this seems to be asking me to judge others.
I grew up in the Congregational Church, in a congregation that had a formal serious Sunday service with all the bells, choirs and whistles. So I started out a little spoiled: serious liturgy, but a community where distrust of authority was institutionalized.
Thanks for the link. I'm not really tempted to become an Episcopalian (they're too political) but I may be in the market......

Sorry for the double post.

Re:"Perhaps those favoring Latin have shallow roots in contemporary ethnicity and are trying to create a medieval one for themselves."

I thought this was interesting...and goes some way towards explaining English Catholicism. Because the English loved the Middle Ages and the Gothic. Just look at the Houses of Parliament, the Wm. Morris movement, the architecture of Augustus Pugin, the whole pre-Rafaelite movement in art. Also the Oxford Movement in the Church of England culminating in the conversion of John Henry Newman to Catholicism (I go to Mass sometimes at his church,the Brompton Oratory). All of these were 19th c. phenomena which emerged/could emerge only after Catholics were emancipated in 1829. As well, the continued pull of the classics at Oxbridge.

So there was no need for the English to *create* a medieval past, only to re-embrace the one they already had. This is probably why there is such impetus behind the Latin mass here.

Viejita,

The Doctrine of the Church, as the People of God and/or the living body of Christ in the world, has always been an integral part of Catholic teaching. It has also always been the reason for disunity amongst Christians--Protestants deny that *any* church possessesan indefectible body of teaching--and is the greatest stumbling block in ecumenism. However, the question of authority--of the means by which truth is known to be true--is the very basis of all religious association.

This is what the Church claims--and has always claimed--and it is not up for negotiation.

If you have some time, read Edward Norman's lecture to the Anglican Communion

http://justus.anglican.org/resources/misc/norman98

Norman is fairly excoriating towards the Church of England. (He would become a Catholic in 2004.) But the lecture is very clear, and a wonderful exposition of the whole dialectic.

Regards

Viejita,

The Doctrine of the Church, as the People of God and/or the living body of Christ in the world, has always been an integral part of Catholic teaching. It has also always been the reason for disunity amongst Christians--Protestants deny that *any* church possessesan indefectible body of teaching--and is the greatest stumbling block in ecumenism. However, the question of authority--of the means by which truth is known to be true--is the very basis of all religious association.

This is what the Church claims--and has always claimed--and it not up for negotiation.

If you have some time, read Edward Norman's lecture to the Anglican Communion

http://justus.anglican.org/resources/misc/norman98

Norman is fairly excoriating towards the Church of England. (He would become a Catholic in 2004.) But the lecture is very clear, and a wonderful exposition of the whole dialectic.

Regards

Dear Prof Arroyo-Stevens,

I wrote this to Fr Reese stating my reasons for favouring wider use of the Latin Mass. Usually I don't multiple post, but I'll make an exception here. FYI the Latin Mass is much favoured here in the UK for a number of reasons, mostly though because the number of Catholics is much smaller than in the US, although it is the largest Christian denomination (about 2,5 million), its membership is extremely diverse. It is very difficult to provide Mass in all these different languages, simply not the critical mass to do so. Latin for us is a good idea.

Anyway, here it is:

"Firstly: I live in a city (London), where Catholics are from many different countries with varying expertise in English. My parish, a poor one, is a polyglot of nationalities: West African, Polish & Lithuanian, French plus the descendants of the Irish who flocked into the East End to build the docks and stayed to become Cockneys and West Indians who came later..The laity in our church are wildly in favour of more Latin & IMO Latin in the most sacred parts of the Mass would unite us more than divide.

Secondly: Latin has been reintroduced in state schools (it has always been present in public schools) and 'mirabile dictu' has proved surprisingly popular. So it seems the appetite is there. Further, there is still a good classics tradition in some British universities, so that particular skill set has not yet been lost.

Thirdly: Parts of the Mass are, even today, known by their foreign words: the Credo, the Kyrie (Greek I know), Agnus Dei--which is usually sung.

Finally, one of Catholicism's gift to the world,those towering examples of western civilization the great sung masses--the 2 Mozarts, the Bach in B minor, the Verdi & Faure Requiems--are in Latin. To cut them off from the wellspring of their language, to remove all understanding of Latin from the Catholic laity, seems a terrible desecration, a vandalism reminiscent of Cromwell and the Levellers.

I hope you and your parishoners can adjust to the new availability of Latin believing, as I do, this is for the good I remain

Yours sincerely,
Mary Cunningham
London

The return to the Latin ritual is not the most troubling part of this latest statement. The church needs to connect better with the awesome experience of traditional mass forms (which the Anglicans never gave up, by the way.)

What is more worrisome is the reiteration of the "One True Church" concept, putting obedience to papal authority (the Apostolic Succession) ahead of any adherence to reality or to the teachings of Christ.

I guess Dostoevskiy was right: It's all about miracle, mystery and authority.