All Comments (55)

With regard to the charge that:
"Catholics are not perfect.."

Well Catholics ARE perfect don't you know..
And that's precisely why once a week they admit that they aren't perfect at all, dont you know..

With regard to "and were responsible for the Naziism.."

Just expalin to us why 75% of the Nazis were in fact protestant.
This myth about Catholic church was the cause is basically insane, and has no basis in fact.

Half the people killed in those Polish death camps were in fact Roman Catholics..
The other half were Jews. Total number is around 11 million.

Elohist

Interesting that you brought up Jeanne Kirkpatrick and the nuns in El Salvador. I had forgotten about that blot on our country's reputation (maybe because there are so many new ones). It certainly shows that the Catholic Church is so big and has so many different points of view that it is pretty hard to justify blanket condemnation or blanket approval. The Organization is not identical to the individual people who make up the Organization, even if people tend to conflate the two. For sure, though, the current Vatican hierarchy condemns any theology that would approve of the actions of those nuns.

"Nod, you commented on:

"Rome, by contrast, is fundamentally incapable of understanding democratic priniciples."

dude, Jeff, the Pope is elected."

Really? How many Catholics voted? A leader selected by an elite minority does not constitute a minority. Dude."

The only difference between Communism and Catholicism is an imaginary friend.

Anthony your post was an embarrasment, and I am a Catholic.

Yes Eloist,

You are correct. Jean Kirkpatrick was a horrible, twisted old hag. As were many, many members of the Reagan administration. On many issues they were an awful, corrupt and cowardly bunch.

Dear Redlion:

I recovered this account of the murders in El Salvador and the exact wording of Kirkpatrick's defense of the murders.

"Shortly after 7 P.M. on December 2,1980 members of the National Guard of El Salvador arrested three American nuns and one American lay missionary as they were leaving the Comalapa International Airport. Two of the nuns, members of the Maryknoll Order, were returning from Nicaragua, and the other two women were picking them up at the airport. The four women were beaten, raped, and murdered. Their bodies were thrown in a ditch. The truth commission concluded that this atrocity was planned ahead of time, that the sergeant in charge of the actual executions was acting on orders from higher up, that the head of the National Guard, then Colonel Carlos Eugenio Vides Casanova, among others, had facilitated the cover up of the crime."

The reaction of Jeanne Kirkpatrick as found in the newspapers: "Obviously, the nuns were not just nuns; the nuns were political activists. We ought to be a little more clear-cut about this than we usually are. They were political activists on behalf of the Frente (the guerrillas) and somebody who is using violence to oppose the Frente killed them."

Seems to me that the case is pretty clear that the US government harbored a willing defender of those who rape and kill Catholics. The Reagan administration let Kirkpatrick defame the memory of these women and made no apology or retraction for what was clearly not true: the truth commission proved that Kirkpatrick got her facts wrong.

Are you going to admit that you were wrong in defending the anti-Catholic Kirkpatrick? Or do you agree with her that Catholic nuns deserve to be punished for the practice of their faith? I Would think Stevens-Arroyo is right. Only an anti-Catholic bigot would continue to tell lies when they have been proven wrong.

Nod:
--------------
"Rome, by contrast, is fundamentally incapable of understanding democratic priniciples."

dude, Jeff, the Pope is elected.
--------------

Soviet leaders were elected. Today's Chinese leaders are also elected. But election by a politburo is not democracy. There are 111 cardinals that can participate in the election of a pope. There are what, 1 billion catholics? When was the last time your cardinal asked you for your opinion? Catholicism is neither representative nor a democracy. And it is quite open about this.

However catholicism does not impose anything on you unless you accept it as your religion, unlike the Soviet or Chinese governments. So comparing religious and governmental structures is not so clear cut. Catholicism is a democracy of sorts because each person can choose to join or quit the religion relatively freely. But, like cigarette companies that use nicotine to enslave their customers, the catholics and other religions use heaven and hell to enslave theirs.

The Pope and the UN: THe Vatican is a country. Really. All that remains of the 'Holy Roman Empire' and a sop, along with the Swiss Guard, to the castrated Church. The RCC was never a kind, apolitical organization. Entire generations were wedded, bedded, birthed and buried under orders of excommunication so that the Holy See could control an errant king or three. To reduce the Pope's control of the world, the Empire became a few thousand acres in downtown Rome.

One must learn to separate the organization (nation) and the Faithful (a pretty diverse lot.) The doctrine of one does not necessarily reflect the beliefs of the other.

I, too, have 'fallen away'. I no longer believe in the 'religious authority' of any organized religion. It is the nature of humans beings that whereever two or more are gathered, there is politics.

Anthony M. Stevens-Arroyo wrote:
---“If there is no earthly reason to explain how Catholicism endures, ought we conclude then that the Catholic Church has heavenly protection?---

Hmmm, maybe, or maybe it endures because it has earthy reasons for its endurance. It began as a small religion that stayed small until it was adopted by Emperor Constantine who spread it through Europe via war and conquest, made it the state religion, made the church rich, the church's creation of a tight control of its members through the threat of hell, confession to learn secrets, it obsession with money and secrecy, missionary work to continually acquire new members, and less than open heiarchy as we learned through the pediphile priests saga. If the church had any heavenly protection it would not need the secrecy, wars, missionaries and money to maintain itself. Maybe you should also wonder what protects the Jews, Zorastrians, or atheists for that matter. They have endured much longer.

As for bigotry against Catholics, since I grew up a Catholic I can say, sure, there is bigotry. The one thing Anthony has right is that there is always bigotry at various levels. Bigotry can be what one allows it to be. I was not picked for a softball team when I was eight because I was catholic. The coach said so directly. You could do that pretty openly in the 1960s. I called him "stupid", which was quite a bit of chutspa for an 8 year old to call an adult back then (not today I'm sorry to say). But instead of sulking I simply joined another softball team, which beat that coach's team twice in one season. And when I came to the plate I pointed at the coach so he'd remember me. As my Dad used to say, "bigotry is the bitgot's problem. Don't make it your problem". Today, thanks to the beatings in catholic school and their refusal to answer questions about God and resolve biblical inconsistencies and throwing the threat of hellfire at me when I questioned anything, I'm an atheist. And there is bigotry there too, but that's not my problem.

minority = democracy. Two different thoughts going on :)

Nod, you commented on:

"Rome, by contrast, is fundamentally incapable of understanding democratic priniciples."

dude, Jeff, the Pope is elected."

Really? How many Catholics voted? A leader selected by an elite minority does not constitute a minority. Dude.

Anthony, you have turned in a solid defense of the church. Your closing proves Catholics can play offense too. The question directed to us is no "Hail Mary" heaved in desperation. It is a bullet pass thrown with the fervent desire that someone make---the immaculate catch.

Sorry, the temptation was too great. Okay time to stop.

When we can find humor in our firm beliefs, it is a gift, given to be opened with our laughter.

So from Atheist to Zionist, including Baptists and Muslims--relax--Teeheeheehee.

"Benny the Rat has just come out and meddled in the secular affairs of sovereign nations, condemning same sex marriages yet again. Here in Canada these same marriages are legal. If Benny doesn't like it, he can mind his own business. No leader, and certainly not a dictator, which is what he is of the Vatican City, has the right to meddle in the internal affairs of any other nation. Let him go back to doing whatever it is he does and shut the f*** up."

How is condemning the same as "meddling in internal affairs"? Marriage is hardly an internal affair; and seeing Catholics generally go to a priest in order to be married, it's hardly none of their business.

In condemning gay marriage, the Catholic Church does not truly expect state governments to conform, it just states that it will not support it. Actually, from a historical perspective, marriage--whatever it has become today--is an institution rooted in religion. The Catholic Church has the perfect right to say that it will not consecrate gay marriage, and no government has the right to tell it to do so.

That said, I am not Catholic, and I support gay marriage. I also think that the government should butt out of gay marriage completely and only give out civil unions, to heterosexual or homosexual couples--and both can then duke it out with their secular religious institutions from there.

Wow, I have heard more venemous bile here directed at the Catholic church than I have ever heard the Pope or any other Catholic direct at other faiths or those of no faith in God at all. So much for the "tolerance" and "celebrating of diversity" which the left prides itself on.

"Rome, by contrast, is fundamentally incapable of understanding democratic priniciples."

dude, Jeff, the Pope is elected.

I'm no fan of Lou Dobbs, but the reason you don't hear him or others criticizing "the Presbyterian, the Methodist, the Lutheran or the Episcopal" church is that they are not unitary organizations that issue unwavering edicts on matters of public policy. The Episcopal Church may come the closest but unlike Rome they engage their clergy and laity in open debate and allow their priests and bishops to take public stances that differ from the "party line." Rome, by contrast, is fundamentally incapable of understanding democratic priniciples. It stifles the opinions of clergy who don't tow the line and insists on injecting itself in matters of public policy (abortion, stem-cell research, death penalty) in which it has no business interfering.

Rob shows such tolerance for somebody else expressing their opinion. Clearly there is no anti-Catholic bias in his comment.

Benny the Rat has just come out and meddled in the secular affairs of sovereign nations, condemning same sex marriages yet again. Here in Canada these same marriages are legal. If Benny doesn't like it, he can mind his own business. No leader, and certainly not a dictator, which is what he is of the Vatican City, has the right to meddle in the internal affairs of any other nation. Let him go back to doing whatever it is he does and shut the f*** up.

Mr. Arroyo said,

"Since “On Faith” seldom admits reasoning that is not rational, I will close with a question rather than a statement. “If there is no earthly reason to explain how Catholicism endures, ought we conclude then that the Catholic Church has heavenly protection?”

and was immediately attacked ad nauseum on this point... did nobody else recognize it as a rhetorical device?

Mr. Arroyo,

An extremely interesting article. I never really viewed the survival of the catholic church in how your closing statement put it. It has always amazed me though how the catholic religion and others as well have survived as many purges as they have. When one looks at Stalins intense hatred for catholics and the millions of catholics an other religious people he had murdered.
in his attempt to make government the one and only power in his country it boggles the mind. Especially when one considers how quick the churches reemerged in Russia after his death. Its a different view point for sure on faith.

Anonymous:

According to South Park, only Mormons are going to heaven.

Blue Horizon:

Please enlighten us on any aspect of reason that does not contradict your faith.

And, what makes you so cocky-sure that when you "cross over" you won't have to answer to some other god who's pissed off that you weren't worshipping him?

The anti-RCC crowd will stay that way, until some life-changing event flips them. While there is nothing in reason that contradicts the faith of we Holy Romans (and people of truly good will of any faith), reason all by itself can't convert anyone.

I have just one wish though. I would absolutely LOVE to be a fly on the celestial wall when the naysayers--if they stay that way--cross over to the other side.

The anti-RCC crowd will stay that way, until some life-changing event flips them. While there is nothing in reason that contradicts the faith of we Holy Romans (and people of truly good will of any faith), reason all by itself can't convert anyone.

I have just one wish though. I would absolutely LOVE to be a fly on the celestial wall when the naysayers--if they stay that way--cross over to the other side.

Marc and Fed up

Lighten up :)

You have not been reading what everyone from atheists to Catholics has been saying and writing about Islam and Muslims, including in the On Faith threads. Roll with it.

Disputatio:
Quite a zinger. Except that persumably Brutus isn't all-seeing, all-knowing, and all-powerful.

Brutus,

You didn't protect those children either. Maybe YOU don't exist.

Eloist,

Cardinal Law should have faced trial (and most likely prosecution) in Massachusetts. How exactly did the Vatican "get rid" of Law by letting him hide out in the Vatican. Getting rid of him would mean ex-communication. i.e.:

"Get out and stay out...and good luck with the trial."

No, the Vatican certainly did not "get rid" of Law. They are sheltering and giving aid to a child molester.

I do agree with you on Foley. Yes he should not have been allowed to retire with full benefits and yes he was sheltered by those in charge. But I always thought that the Catholic Church would have just a little higher standards than the US Congress. I expect lying, cheating and sexual misadventures from members of congress. The Church on the other hand....I kinda expect more.

As for your assertion that the Catholic Church has done "MORE" to prosecute child molester than congress well that would laughable if the subject matter was not so tragic.

Sorry, but who was there for the children?

Definately not the Church.

Who will pay?

Definately not Cardinal Law, no thanks to the Pope.

Nice job.

With Ambassador Kirkpatrick having only recently passed, it's sad but revealing to hear a self-professed Catholic (and therefore a believer in the Commandment against bearing false witness) claim that she said that the religious who were killed in El Salvador deserved what they got. Note that we are not given a real quote, just a single word with no context. How would you like to be given such distorting and patently unfair treatment, Mr. Stevens-Arroyo?

Fed up wrote: "Gee and I thought the left was compassionate and loving and embraced diversity in all its many shapes and forms. I guess that means compassionate and loving to every one except Catholics."

Don't confuse intolerance of willful ignorance and stupidity with intolerance of Catholicism.

Gee and I thought the left was compassionate and loving and embraced diversity in all its many shapes and forms. I guess that means compassionate and loving to every one except Catholics.

The Catholic Church has survived due to a long history of political machinations. It's that simple. From Cardinal Innitzer to Cardinal Richelieu to the adoption of December 25 as the date for Christmas -- the church has manuevered to maintain its status in the most powerful nations on earth. The evangelicals of today have followed in those very un-Christlike footsteps.

I liked the title of the post, if only he had stopped there.

The writer left out how the Irish were treated when they came to this country- remember NINA (No Irish Need Apply)? Remember how Catholics always made the list of the KKK? How the Irish were not allowed to vote because of their Catholicism and cardinal sin of just existing?! Not allowed to be educated? The outrage this country had at the mere idea of a Catholic leading before Kennedy?!

I have been yelled at, insulted, berated, and grilled about my faith. I would NEVER corner someone of a different faith and tell them they are wrong and expect them to defend themselves. I have studied other religions and my religion is right for me. All roads lead to the same path- we just have different means of getting there.

"The Catholic Church sheltered and coddled child-raping priests all the while putting thier children in danger. As has been pointed out before the Vatican is still sheltering one of it's worst criminals, Cardinal Law. The last Pope, gave him a cushy job at the Vatican shortly before dying. Pointing these things out is not an attack. It is merely telling the truth. Sorry if you cannot handle the truth."

Not ONE Catholic thinks these men should get away with this. These pedophiles are NOT the Catholic Church- they are men who took the vow of the Church and promised to live the life it stands for and protect the Church. There is NO ARGUEMENT that what they did is wrong- and no arguement that the men who lead the Church handled this wrong. They are human and have created a disaster and hearache that will endure for generations. But THIS IS NOT WHAT THE CHURCH STANDS FOR and there are priests that want the heads of those who did these horrible crimes.

Don't judge a whole religion on people who defy the very morals and beliefs the organization stands for.

Seems to me that punishment for offenders enters into the picture for rationalist evaluation. I don't know anyone alive today who is perfect and has never made a mistake and I include institutions in that evaluation. The record is clear. The Catholic Church has done MORE to prosecute pedophiles than the US Congress. Anybody remember Mark Foley, who retired with a full pension and no censure after being protected by higher-ups? The Catholic Church got rid of Cardinal Law (forced to live in Rome outside of his home country), pronounced those accused as "guilty until proven innocent" and ignored the statute of limitations to make the offenses and the punishment lifelong. I suggest all the non-Catholics who are so upset about a church to which they do not belong stop whining and use the same criteria for the US, the country to which they do belong.

Earning the condescension of Lou Dobbs should be a badge of honor. The man has the morals of a snake, and the intelligence of a brick.

"Religion is responsible for more bloodshed throughout history than any other phenomenon."

This is the most historically inaccurate statement I have heard today. Atheist communism murdered more people in 50 years than all the religions in the world have murdered in a thousand. It would be wise of you to learn about the history of communism. Try The Black Book of Communism: Crimes, Terror, Repression Dr. Stéphane Courtois.

"The doctrines of the Catholic Church were a cause of the anti-Semitism at the core of Nazi ideology, and the actions and acquiescence of Catholic leaders, including the Pope, enabled the Holocaust. Now the Catholic Church can celebrate (privately, of course) the extermination and expulsion of the Jewish people from the Church's center of power, Europe. Do you think that there are sufficient reasons for having a negative reaction to the Catholic Church?"

The above statement is the definition of anti-Catholicism. You do not also believe in The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, do you? Nazism had nothing to do with Catholicism or religion at all. The Nazi's did not view Jews as a religious group of people, as the Church did, but as a racial group of people. The Nazi problem with was with the Jewish race, not the Jewish religion. Nazism, as was fascism and communism, illustrates the total failure of 20th century secular politics.

For just a little perspective, please read The Myth of Hitler’s Pope by David G. Dalin. A “righteous gentile” he was in deed.

So what's the difference between "discrimination" and just disagreeing with your viewpoint? If I said "a pox on all religions" then would you still feel discriminated against? Religion predisposes believers to accepting a victim mentality--hence you see anti-whatever and discrimination and bigotry everywhere. But look in your own dirty closets and clean them up first. Religion is responsible for more bloodshed throughout history than any other phenomenon. Stop crying and start rectifying.

I can't believe some of the vitrol of some of these comments. Makes you think that atheists are the most dogmatic people of all. I thought getting rid of dogmatism that was supposed to be the big advantage of weening the world off religion.

Religion arose when people found they needed something more, a sense of fulfillment when simply living was not enough. As long as people feel unfulfilled, they will turn to religion to make sense of their lives. Catholicism, religion in general, provided the people with a purpose -to get into heaven, eternal salvation, etc- and a moral code to help them get there -The Ten Commandments. And the majority of Catholics abide by said rules, or at least try to. It may be a church of sinners, but it's a church of striving ones.

Religion arose when people found they needed something more, a sense of fulfillment when simply living was not enough. As ling as people feel unfulfilled, they will turn to religion. Catholicism, religion in general, provided the people with a goal to work for -heaven- and a moral code to help them get there -The Ten Commandments. And the majority of Catholics abide by said rules, or at least try to. It may be a church of sinners, but it's a church of striving ones.

"A kernal of truth!?!?"

Yes, the Catholic Church is/was a protector of child molesters. There is no debate on this.

The Catholic Church sheltered and coddled child-raping priests all the while putting thier children in danger.

As has been pointed out before the Vatican is still sheltering one of it's worst criminals, Cardinal Law. The last Pope, gave him a cushy job at the Vatican shortly before dying.

Pointing these things out is not an attack. It is merely telling the truth. Sorry if you cannot handle the truth.

The doctrines of the Catholic Church were a cause of the anti-Semitism at the core of Nazi ideology, and the actions and acquiescence of Catholic leaders, including the Pope, enabled the Holocaust. Now the Catholic Church can celebrate (privately, of course) the extermination and expulsion of the Jewish people from the Church's center of power, Europe. Do you think that there are sufficient reasons for having a negative reaction to the Catholic Church?

Mr Orroyo : "Since “On Faith” seldom admits reasoning that is not rational, I will close with a question rather than a statement. “If there is no earthly reason to explain how Catholicism endures, ought we conclude then that the Catholic Church has heavenly protection?”

Reason in faith? Reasoning that is not rational? Extraordinary.

As to how Catholicism endures, only Catholics can answer that.

Heavenly protection? Internationally, there are Holy Sees in many capital cities of the world. It has the same privileges and immunities as embassies of nations. And many countries has diplomatic representations at the Vatican.

The Vatican/Holy See has a seat in the UN. No other religious denominations has such priveleges or temporal protection so to speak.

In his visit overseas, the Pope is accorded status as one would for a head of state.

I have given you some of the earthly reason Mr. Orroyo for the heavenly protection here on earth..... and you need more?

"der Fürher planned to murder the pope"

Yeah, and aliens abducted Elvis. Whatever....

“If there is no earthly reason to explain how Catholicism endures, ought we conclude then that the Catholic Church has heavenly protection?”

Stupidest thing I have read in some time. It's the same reason as the enduring presence of the Easter Bunny.

I continue to find it amazing how members of different denominations trash each other. Some of Professor Stevens-Arroyo's beefs seem legit to me, and mostly his wrath seems directed at other Christians. Not surprisingly, those are the groups that seem to have the largest antipathy to Catholicism.

Institutions like gigantic churches with gazillions in assets exhibit emergent properties that cannot be attributed to any one member of the organization. Recognizing this allows one to see through all sorts of apparent paradoxes.

“If there is no earthly reason to explain how Catholicism endures, ought we conclude then that the Catholic Church has heavenly protection?”

Stupidest thing I have read in some time. It's the same reason as the enduring presence of the Easter Bunny.

I continue to find it amazing how members of different denominations trash each other. Some of Professor Stevens-Arroyo's beefs seem legit to me, and mostly his wrath seems directed at other Christians. Not surprisingly, those are the groups that seem to have the largest antipathy to Catholicism.

Institutions like gigantic churches with gazillions in assets exhibit emergent properties that cannot be attributed to any one member of the organization. Recognizing this allows one to see through all sorts of apparent paradoxes.

If Mr Arroyo here represents Catholics, then be gone with you, every last one of you.

Go join your party in the clouds, find a bridge...

Forced to conclude that is. :)

Anthony M. Stevens-Arroyo somehow managed to type: "If there is no earthly reason to explain how Catholicism endures, ought we conclude then that the Catholic Church has heavenly protection?"

If I can find one earthly reason, are you then ready to conclude that the Catholic Church has no heavenly protection?

Please start making sense Anthony M. Stevens-Arroyo or I'm going to be forced that 'On Faith' is bigoted against Catholics and that they are demonstrating that bigotry by allowing you to continually make a fool of yourself with your essays.

Maybe the reason Heaven didn't protect those children is because there is no God or heaven. Maybe its just more proof that there is no higher power.

As a long suffering Cubs fan I have to agree. We are the victems of discrimination every day. Somehow we perservere.

As for the Catholic Church my dear Anthony, maybe if they did not hire and assist all of those child-moslesters decade after decade your song of pity might have some merit.

I will close with a question as well:

Why did Heaven (not to mention the Pope) not protect those children from those priests/rapists?

After your December 27th, 2006 comments concerning atheists, you are one of the last people who should be complaining about verbal discrimination.

Since “On Faith” seldom admits reasoning that is not rational, I will close with a question rather than a statement. “If there is no earthly reason to explain how Catholicism endures, ought we conclude then that the Catholic Church has heavenly protection?”

There's no earthly reason some people still believe in ESP, witchcraft, seances or astrology; but that's not a reason to think there's a supernatural explanation.