All Comments (50)

"Msgr. Walter Brandmueller, who is German and the president of the Pontifical Committee for Historical Sciences at the Vatican, said in a radio interview that he could not remember such a serious row between the church and the Jews in Germany.

However, he noted that he had little understanding for the Jews' frustration.

"One can't be harrowed in Yad Vashem and then get back to normal business when one sees the misery in Ramallah," he said. "While the Warsaw ghetto unfortunately can't be reversed, Ramallah can still be changed.""

http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=23314

The root of suffering is ignorance. In the powerful, its effect is powerful.

We might as well think together about this view:

"When several members of the Bishop committee, the top body of the Catholic Church in Germany, allow themselves, only several hours after visiting the Yad Vashem Holocaust Museum, to associate the horrors of the Holocaust with the situation in the Territories, this gives rise to a question: To what extent are the Catholic Church and German society still tainted by anti-Semitism.

We shall recall that according to an explicit definition by the European Union bodies, presenting Israel's acts as comparable to the acts committed by the Nazis is an expression of anti-Semitism.

Rewriting history

If various polls show that 30 percent of Germans believe Israel's attitude to the Palestinians is identical to the Nazi attitude towards the Jews, then too many Germans have not learned any lesson from the history of their country. What's worse, part of the German elites have contributed to it and are still contributing to the fact that Germany's despicable past is blurred within collective memory and replaced by ancient, sickening ideas."

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3374026,00.html

"any informed person knows that Israel is a racist fascist Apartheid jewish Theocracy and is a colonial settler state as facts on the ground prove:"

Why does anyone have trouble understanding talk like that is anti-semitic? Why does anyone have trouble distinguishing that from legitimate criticism of Israel? Is that not creating an issue where there is none?

"it was the aggressive stroming of al-aqsa by sharon and his troops that started the infitada on sept-28-2000"

They stood where they were told not to stand.

"do muslims have access to la-aqsa?"

Yes. Jordan controls it.

"anyone who isnt jewish isnt even allowed into the country!"

No.

NORRIE- because of your patently false opinion stated--

RE: HOLY PLACES IN ISRAEL: The Government of Israel has an impeccable record of protecting and allowing access to the Holy Places in the 59 years since Israel was created.

Posted February 22, 2007 1:41 PM

but only if youre jewish-

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/september/30/newsid_4295000/4295024.stm

it was the aggressive stroming of al-aqsa by sharon and his troops that started the infitada on sept-28-2000

access to worship?
do muslims have access to la-aqsa?the dome mosque in jeruslaem the seocnd most revered holy site in islam-

anyone who isnt jewish isnt even allowed into the country!

and the church of the nativity at bethlehem on christmans eve?

you have a very selective and revisionist idea of history when it disagrees with your own agenda norrie

With all due respect, the good professor's article is nothing but pseudo-intellectual excrement.

First, we have a great historical record from the Assyrian and Babylonian captivities through the destruction of the Jerusalem Temple in 70 A.D. to the founding of modern-day Israel. Judaism and Jews survived (even under Christian and Muslim domination).

Second, the Papal States cannot be compared in any way with Israel because, according to Jewish scriptures, the land that encompasses much of modern-day Israel was given to the Israelites by God. Whether that mandate still holds true today is a separate issue. No Catholic, however, would argue that the Papal States ever were a divine mandate.

Speaking as a Catholic (and not as a Jew), I really wish the Vatican City State would collapse. When it comes to geopolitics, the Vatican has had a history of arrogantly meddling in foreign affairs not to serve God but its own narrow interests.

Victoria,

Who knows what the prophet said?? He was illiterate. You are reading the probable scribbling of scribes who had their own militaristic agendas to force Islam on conquered lands.

I repeat again:

And what has history, scriptural text reviews and archeology taught us about these foundations?

1. Abraham is the reported founder of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Based on all we know now, Abraham was at best a combination of three separate individuals with 1.5 million Conservative Jews no longer believing he existed at all. (ditto for all the characters in the OT).
references: National Georgraphic review on Abraham and http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2002/0401torah.asp

2. The founders of Christianity and Islam were both illiterate. i.e. neither one proof read or approved the NT or the Koran so we are taking the word of scribes and embellishers with their own agendas.
references: NT exegetes from the last two hundred years, Karen Armstrong's reviews of Islam and http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

3. Christianity is based on the gossip about Jesus, the whim of Pilate, the false prophecy of the imminent second coming, and the sword of Constantine.
references: NT exegetes and their conclusions/books from the last two hundred years.

Conclusion: Be very careful in making any literal translations of any "good" book including the Koran.

NOTE- PEOPLE OF THE BOOK ARE JEWS AND CHRISTIANS

"If it had been the Lord's Will, they would all have believed- all who are on earth: will you then (Muhammad) compel mankind, against their will, to believe?" Qur'an, 10: 99.

Another Qur'anic verse states:

"Let there be no compulsion in religion, truth stands out clear from error." Qur'an, 2: 256.

"Say O people of the Book! Come to common terms as between us and you that we worship none but God; that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, lords and patrons other than God. If then they turn back, say: "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to God's Will)." Qur'an, 3:64.

"Say: We believe in God, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the Prophets from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another." Qur'an, 3:84.

"O humankind! We created you from a single pair of a male and female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know and deal with each other in kindness (not that you may despise each other). Verily the most honored of you in the sight of God (is he who is) the most righteous of you, and God is Knower, Aware." Qur'an, 49:13.

"Invite (all) to the way of your Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and discuss with them in ways that are best and most gracious." Qur'an, 16:25.

"And dispute not with People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong and injury." Qur'an, 29:46.

The Prophet (p) also said:

"Let it be known, if any one (Muslim) commits injustice, insults, aggravates, mistreats or abuses a person of the People of the Book (protected, by the state or an agreement), he will have to answer me (for his immoral action) on the Day of Judgment." Izzeddin Blaque, Minhaj Alsaliheen, Page 106.

Thus, the lack of tolerance towards the non-Muslims under Islamic rule is a grave offense.

"If any one kill a person, it would be as if he kill the whole people, and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the whole people." Qur'an, 5:32.

"Whoever fights under an erratic irrational banner, buffs up angry for a particular (irrational) group or promotes (irrational) group, or supports (irrational) group and died in that cause, he died as a disbeliever, and whoever indiscriminately attacks my people killing the righteous and the wicked of them, sparing not (even) those with whom is a covenant (such as Jews and Christians "People of Book" and other ), and not fulfilling the promises made with those who have been given a pledge of a security--he belongs not to me and I belong not to him." Muslim, Tradition # 3436.

"Whoever kills a person of the People of Covenant (such as Jews, and Christian or people of others creeds or philosophy) with whom there is a covenant between them and Muslims, he or she will not enter Paradise." Bukhari, Tradition # 2930.

i removed commentary to just leave a few examples-all quran or hadeeth- (sayings of the prphet(pbuh)

Victoria,

I've been away for a couple of days and haven't been following the threads. I don't get why you addressed the post above (2/26,3:16 PM)to me. I don't think I posted anything to do with the subject of your post. If you'd be good enough to explain what you're asking of me, I'll be glad to respond.

All I know is that these Temple Mount constuction/archaeology disputes have been going on for decades, and it's impossible to understand what's really going on there from the skimpy news reports.

Regards.

NORRIE- possibly you consider the digging of the tunnel for the past several years under the mosque in jerusalem (al-aqsa) protecting religious sites?

Israeli parliamentarian calls for the excavations under Al-Aqsa Mosque to stop
Date: 06 / 02 / 2007 تكبير الخط تصغير الخط
Excavations underway on
Tuesday (MaanImages)
Jerusalem - Ma'an - Israeli Knesset member from the Democratic Front for Peace and Equality, Dr Dov Haneen, has blamed the Israeli government for the tensions resulting from the excavations taking place near the Bab Al-Magharba ('Dung Gate'), close to the entrance to the Al-Aqsa mosque in the old city of Jerusalem.

In a statement which Ma'an received, Dr Haneen called on the Israeli government to stop these "provocative excavations" immediately. He also warned of escalation in the Palestinian territories, especially in east Jerusalem, following the Israeli aggressions on the Al-Aqsa mosque, which is considered the third holiest site worldwide by Muslims.

Earlier, Israeli bulldozers started removing a wooden wall and two rooms at Bab Al-Magharba near the "Western" or "Wailing Wall" (Al-Buraq wall), revealing that a new tunnel is being dug underneath the holy site.

the same mosque that sharon and his troops stormed into the mosque during prayers that started the intifada?

The latest phase of the Israel-Palestine conflict opened on September 29, 2000, on Friday, the Muslim day of prayer, when Prime Minister Ehud Barak dispatched a massive and intimidating police and military presence to the Al-Aqsa compound. Predictably, that led to clashes as thousands of people streamed out of the mosque, leaving several Palestinians dead and 200 wounded. Whatever Barak may have intended, there could hardly have been a more effective way to set the stage for the shocking sequel, particularly after the visit of Ariel Sharon and his military entourage to the compound the day before, which might have passed without such serious consequences.

tunnels being dug underneath the al-aqsa mosque?
stormtroopers assaulting people in the mosque at prayer?

the final death toll for palestinians was over 4000 civilians-

it did- fo course- completely derail any peace talks started at oslo-

as a scholar of religious history the panelist is either incredibly misinformed or deliberately misleading-

israel was never formed by relgious- it was formed by a forum of zionists who were all atheists- religion was anathema to their plans until it became politically convenient to use it to further their aims of colonizing israel-
from
http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/differencejudzion.html
Neither the founder of political Zionism nor any of the prime ministers of the Zionist state believed in the divine origin of the Torah nor even in the existence of G-d. All prime ministers were members of a party that opposed religion in principle and that considered the Bible a document of ancient folklore, devoid of any religious meaning. And yet these same Zionists base their claim to the Holy Land on this same Bible, the divine origin of which they deny. At the same time they conveniently forget the Jewish holiday prayer "and for our sins have we been exiled from our land," and ignore the fact that the present exile of the Jewish people is divinely decreed and that the Jewish people are neither commanded nor permitted to conquer or rule the Holy Land before the coming of the Messiah.

even the panelist doesnt seem to understand the reason for orthodox law reigning is to keep reformers outof the government-

he says-

Reform Jews find that the state prefers Orthodox rulings: Jews baptized into Catholicism do not have the legal right of immigration return; Muslims are regularly denied access to areas of Israeli educational and political life.

no one has the right to immigrate to israel except jewish people-

what kind of democracy is that?

Hi Anonymous,
I think you misunderstood the point of my post because I wasn't denying you of anything, but trying to explain feelings within a majority within the region. This is probably going to be a point that is hard to explain, but I wanted to try again with another example. :)
First, there are many Chrisitian and Jewish Arabs, although I'm not sure how many have posted here. Also, depending on where they are, they identify themselfs by nationality first or don't feel it's appropriate to identity themselfs by religion (similar to the US (I know, not all places in the US)).
But, I think the best point I can say may be something that you have come across already if you have tried to introduce Chrisitanity to Muslims. When you talk about Jesus, the Virgin Mary, the assention and second coming, Muslims already know about this because it is part of Islam. The biggest difference is that in Chrisianity, Jesus is God (trinity), the Messiah, and so the line of prophets stops with him.
The line from Abraham is also a stopping point of discussion among many, but I'm not trying to argue a true religion here. I want to say that often we think that Muslims hate Chrisitan and Jews by religion. You, of course, have those persons like you have those Chrisitians who hate Jews. (this often will show that those persons do not understand their own faith - a sad situation, but we hope they will learn soon) For any Muslim to put down the Chrisitian or Jewish religion, it is putting down Islam. Again, I'm sure that I am not explaining it as well as other can, but I would hope that it could bring to your attention where relgion is strong within arguments and where power and other factors may be larger factors.

Islam and the Koran are simply a continuation of the real foundations of religion i.e. Gossip!!!

See below before giving more passages from "scripture".

The more profound problems are the foundations of Judaism, Islam and Christianity. All three apparently are based on hearsay of the ancients. Some particulars:

1. Abraham is the reported founder of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Based on all we know now, Abraham was at best a combination of three separate individuals with 1.5 million Conservative Jews no longer believing he existed at all. (ditto for all the characters in the OT).
references: National Georgraphic review on Abraham and http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2002/0401torah.asp
2. The founders of Christianity and Islam were both illiterate. i.e. neither one proofread or approved the NT or the Koran so we are taking the word of scribes and embellishers with their own agendas.
references: NT exegetes from the last two hundred years, Karen Armstrong's reviews of Islam and http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html
3. Christianity is based on the words and deeds of Jesus, the whim of Pilate, the false prophesy of the imminent second coming, and the sword of Constantine.
references: NT exegetes and their conclusions/books from the last two hundred years
Conclusion: the Jewish, Christian and Islamic religions have very little foundation to rely on.

as a footnote:

As per a recent On Faith commentaries about the militaristic, demeaning and outdated Koran written in the name of the illiterate "prophet" Muhammed:

A summary of the Koran: (from recent On Faith commentators)

"After reading the Quran for the first time, I had this bizarre vision....
I saw Muhammed sitting in a room, whispering these words to another man, "I need a drink of water". Then THAT man whispered words to the next person...and so on and so on....out the door, down the street, up the hill.....
the person sitting on top of the hill was scribbling furiously. He jumps up and yells:
"ALLAH NEEDS TO DRINK THE OCEAN FOR US TO SURVIVE!"
It's an old game, called "Gossip" (aka religious foundations)

Arlington, not true. Jesus the Christ (from Greek word for Messiah) was a fulfillment of the Old Testament so Christianity is not a continuation. Abraham after Sarah died married a woman named Keturah and had sons by her, but her descendents are not mentioned as the children of the promise as Isaac was. The problem with ecumenism is everyone has to pretend they don't believe what they believe. Did Abraham offer to sacrifice Ishmael (Q'ran) or was it Isaac (Genesis O.T.)? Is Jesus the Son of God as He claimed (New Testment) or God cannot have a son and it was someone else that was crucified as the Q'ran says. Jesus is Yeshua Ha Meshiach as Christians believe or He is not as the Jews believe. One cannot have it both ways. How do we know what we know? Is there objective truth in religion sans superstition. Did you know that the New Testament says that after Mary gave birth to Jesus she had physical marital relations with Joseph and that the N.T. gives the names of His half-brothers and mentions sisters, but not by name? Jesus grew up in a family. What's so unholy about that.

Great post; especially at the beginning of Lent. :) Just to add another religious note...
Islam is a continuation of Christianity like Christianity is a continuation of Judaism. To make it more simple, just as Adam, Abraham and Moses are part of Christianity and Christian teachings, Adam, Abraham, Moses and Jesus are part of Islam and Muslim teachings. Within all groups, there are people who don’t like the other groups within the Abrahamic religions. But, I don’t think the simplicity of the continuation in faiths are realized enough.

I am curious if any of the Arabs posting are Christians. Paul writes Romans chapters 9-11 God plan for Israel. I haved learned that very little has changed in human history. Basically all these are the same problems just different times with different nations in fore of the media. At the time of Jesus the Jews and the Samaritans also hated one another. Jesus told the Samaritan woman at the well that salvation was from the Jews. The Samaritans worshiped at Mt. Gerizim and not Jerusalem; Jesus corrected her, but did tell her a time would come when neither mountain would be a place of worship, but believers would worship in Spirit and TRUTH (a rare word used nowadays in regards to religion) After the Lord Jesus was crucified, buried, and risen again (resurrected) He appeared to just the Jews and Israelis who believed in Him. He told them to preach the gospel beginning at Jerusalem, Samaria, and ultimately to the world. The Book of Acts Jews preached to the Samaritans and they believed on Jesus for salvation. It had to be an act of humility for the Samaritans to admit they were wrong and salvation came from a Jewish savior. My point in this is the one true equality we all possess, outside of being evil (I quote Jesus in Matt. 7:11), is our mortality. Life is short, and after death where will we be? Jesus did not die and resurrect to make for world peace. We need peace with God because we are evil and and at enmity with God. Jesus provides that peace by atoning by His blood for the sins of those who believe Him; God's justice and wrath is satisfied.

Eh, it goes both ways. :) Conspiracies are so popular. It's true that I just got my information from news organzations like the BBC and I never confirmed with any government documents who asked for what.

As far-fetched as this may seem, at the time of the Gaza handover I read that the houses were razed by the Israelis by the request of the Palestinians. How who would get what house be determined? At the time I thought, if the Israelis do this at the Palestinians' request, it can quickly be construed that the Israelis destroyed the houses so the Palestinians couldn't have them. Your comments bear out my conjecture.

Mary Cunningham,

I wish you a happy and blessed Easter - I truly do. And, until your return, I'll reflect on what you have written.

This is a self-serving statement: If you met me in person I think you'd find me to be quite different from my On Faith persona. Most people have found me to be courteous, thoughtful and unprejudiced.

In case you missed it, here's another earlier post. The books are wonderful and the only side they take in the midst of the turmoil of Henry VIII's reign is that of humanity.

Please take my suggestion that you'd like them as a kind of seasonal gift.

***************

Norrie Hoyt:
Mary C.,

Do you read novels, historical novels, mystery or detective stories? If you do, let me recommend to you three wonderful books that I think you'd enjoy.

C.J. Sansom, a British solicitor with a Ph.D. in history from Birmingham University has written DISSOLUTION [as in dissolution of the monasteries], DARK FIRE, and SOVEREIGN. They are all set in Henry VIII's reign. The hero is a hunchbacked lawyer, Matthew Shardlake, a civilized, thoughtful, humanistic man who finds himself in the service of Thomas Cromwell, and whose religious sympathies change with time and experience.

The Sunday Times commented: "Magnificent novels set in the reign of Henry VIII bring to life the sounds and smells of Tudor England." The Roman-Anglican religious troubles and terrors are at the heart of the books. I loved reading them. You can check the reviews at Amazon or Amazon UK (was Waterstone's).

I'd love to visit Glastonbury. My younger son climbed the Tor and visited the chalice spring. Do you think Mary Magdalene was really there with Joseph of Aremathia?

I've always thought it was terrible that the abbot was hauled up the Tor and hanged. I still think so, even though recent research seems to indicate that the abbot was indeed fiddling the accounts to the detriment of Henry and Cromwell

Regards.

Posted February 15, 2007 4:54 PM

Dear Norrie Hoyt,

Did you know that people born under the astrological sign of Leo are 15% more likely to be admitted to hospital with gastric bleeding than those born under the other 11 signs? And that Sagittarians are 38% more likely than others to land up there because of a broken arm? This is what happens when medical statisticians data mine--go trawling through databases for proof of medical hypotheses rather than rely on controlled experiments. In this case a medical statistician tested hospital entrants with *one* causal factor (date of birth) rather than multiple hypotheses and got these results.

Can you see any relationship with how *you* handle historical facts? You trawl through the data jumping wildly from Tudor England to witch burning in France and then back to the Albigensian heresy: all to *prove* your point that Catholics are wicked. (Well, maybe some are, maybe some were, but so were non-Catholics, so were atheists, in fact, I would say that wickedness is prevalent pretty much every where amongst human beings..)

Anyway, what you purposely fail to do is place these trawled facts in a historical context: the previous assualt upon the Catholic Church in England by Henry VIII, a cruel tyrant who executed both clergy & commoners, especially Northerners who twice rose up against him--his victims are estimated in the thousands versus the hundreds (273) murdered by Mary Tudor. Elizabeth I would return to the dominant Tudor practice of torturing and executing Catholics. (And we won't even touch the massacres by the English in Catholic Ireland.) But that is not the point. The point is that history is complex, not simple--a complex of causes, much like those responsible for hospital admission.

So thanks for your response...but--and don't laugh!--I'm not going any further. The day before yesterday was Ash Wednesday. It's a day of importance for Catholics, reminds us our time is short--"from dust you were made & to dust you will return/ ashes to ashes, dust to dust"--and to get doing what we (know we) should be doing, and how is continuously responding to your never varying charges what I should be doing? What is the good of it, in short?

I still think you will not find what you are seeking by attacking Catholic religious. But suit yourself. Others have certainly tried, and we are still here, in England...in Ireland too, for that matter. But I'm out of it for a while--at least for Lent.

Yours sincerely,
Mary Cunningham

Fila,
Thank you for pointing that there are Arabs in the Knesset, and that is a step in the right direction towards better status for Muslim and Christian Arabs in Israel, however it does not remove the fact that the injustices put on those minority citizen groups are still rather bad. Plus, now that Israel has much tougher restrictions on becoming a citizen, those minority powers within the government may lessen significantly. Hence this whole debate on how Israel can be criticized, like any other government. :)
But, I really wanted to comment on your last posting. It’s this great circle of situation, from action on both sides, that is not getting any better. But, to get better we need to recognize certain things. 1st – most Arabs will not hesitate to say that their own governments contribute to the problems in Palestine due to corruption (mostly) as well as the encouraging on how the other side is viewed (this happens on the Israeli side as well). Some weapons come into the occupied territories to help the official police and may then get into other hands and some weapons come through the black market by those organizations that have the money. Individuals are poor, but the corrupt are not and the corrupt often have lots of power. It can make lines rather blurred at times.
Yes, the UN and other nations give millions of dollars to the Palestinians. There are some fundamental problems in this funding (as with funding that the US provides to other nations as well). First, there are restrictions tied to the money. Such as, we will give you this amount of money, but you can only use it for school books. In places where people have no infrastructure in general, school books are not a high priority. They may spend it on books, but in the whole scheme of things, this money is a waste. Second, due to the lack of infrastructure and inability to act as a nation and enforce their own laws, there is a lot of corruption and this money stays with those corrupt persons. I WILL put some of this blame on Israeli policies towards Palestine. Ultimately, the Palestinians should not be corrupt like this, but there are things that could be done to stop this corruption and allow the moral Palestinians to come forward more willingly. Israeli polices restrict every aspect of life within the territories. People can not move between towns without inspections. People can not get water unless Israel allows it. Goods can not go out or in without Israeli supervision. People can not fish in the sea without being under Israeli supervision. The total lack of freedom puts a strain on the people and government that ultimately doesn’t allow the government to act independently. Fatah is strong in the West Bank. Hamas is strong in Gaza. Considering that officials cannot travel to meet each other without Israeli approval, how can any government work? Again, it is the curse of the minority to rise above this oppressions, but you can not give someone (I’m just using an example – I don’t have exact amounts) $50,000 worth of books and paper and expect the government to function on its own without those freedoms that make a state free.
Last thing, when Israel pulled out of Gaza, they did most of the leveling of housing. There is no way that the Palestinians would pass up on free housing! :) The love for living is much stronger than hate, but if you don’t care about living due to being treated as sub-human, those persons are the dangerous ones. It took about 20-25 years for suicide bombers to appear regularly in Palestine. (Look how long it took for Iraqi’s to get to that stage)

Peacekeeper,

If they are that poor, why do they have the money to purchase weapons? Also, I have to question the premise that poverty is the cause of terroism. The U.N. and other nations have given millions of dollars to the Palestinians to build a nation. They still hate the Jews and Israel, leveled the houses and greenhouses when they were given in the Gaza Strip. When the human heart of any nationality is full of hatred, there is no law or legislation on earth to change it. Jesus said to love one's enemies because that is when we are most like the Lord God who is kind to the evil and unthankful.

The Jewish state is a contradiction. It implies that it is religously based since Jewishness is not a race, but most of its leaders and population are secular. It is high time that Israel stops identifying itself as a Jewish state and excluding non-Jews from all the rights and privileges of citizenship. Exhibit A is the treatment of Muslim and Christian Arabs who live in Israel and are treated as second-class citizens. If it moves towards being a non-religiously identified country then it has a better chance of peacefully coexisting in the middle east.

Robert B. I am well aware that the Protestants are not lily-white. My point is that religion should not have the power of the state to persecute its enemies. The Apostles never put anyone to death for heresy. Their followers were told to put them out of fellowship, but with a view to loving restoration if the person repented; not confession under torture. The Vatican is a very political entity. As for its ecumenism, why is the pope upset that Evangelicals are growing in number in Brazil and other South American nations if we are all brothers and sisters in Christ?

To some of you other posters: There are Arabs that serve in the Israel Knesset.

Mary Cunningham,

A couple of days ago we were trading posts on a news thread (not On Faith) about the impending American Episcopal schism. The thread vanished shortly after I posted my reply to you. I doubt you saw it, so here it is:

*******

MARY CUNNINGHAM, Ah, Mary, you caught up with me! I AM an animal-loving Buddhist sympathizer I don*t presume to call myself a Buddhist - I*m not sure I*m worthy. But, like a shape-shifter, I have multiple personalities - especially on the internet. I usually keep George Arthur Harold William Andrew Phillip, my Episcopal-Anglican personality, under wraps, but he was provoked by this story to slip out.

I*ll leave it to those who know me personally to say if I*m loving or not. But why does what George Arthur posted lead you to the conclusion that I*m not? It doesn*t seem very different from the dozens of posts Ive made in On Faith.

Unlike the Nigerian Bishop whom you seem to have no problem with, I don*t favor sending gays to prison if they share a meal in public. BTW, the American witches were hanged, not burned - presumably a less horrible death. Burning heretics was a European, British sport.

Your Catholic Queen, Bloody Mary, had more than 300 innocents burnt.

Do you regard her as highly as you do the Nigerian Bishop?

Best wishes to you, Mary.

*******

Again, Best Wishes to you.

Jordan & Ralph,
Most of you said is recycled propaganda...repeated at every turn over and over again by zionists...any informed person knows that Israel is a racist fascist Apartheid jewish Theocracy and is a colonial settler state as facts on the ground prove: now Israel occupies all of historical Palestine in addition to the Syrian Golan heights and Sheba farms in Lebanon.
“Arab Israelis”? Just what is that? There is no such thing at all: there are Palestinians under jewish occupation in all of Palestine; what is Israel: an illegitimate state with no constitution and no borders-creeping borders-an Apartheid state worse than the vanished South Africa.
“Arab Israelis” in the jewish parliment? another sick joke.

How is it possible for a "state" to claim establishment on the basis of religion and be secular at the same time?
The creation of the so called jewish state was a historical mistake as it was and continues to be a regional disaster.

And please enough of this recycled holocaust thing at every turn-it lost its meaning a long time; what do the Palestinians have to do with the holocaust? Go talk to the Germans and Europeans about it and ask them to establish a jewish state in Bavaria or Yorkshire; the focus now should be on the Palestinian holocaust which has been going on for the past 60 years and on the Apartheid state in which they are tormented day in and day out.

The Palestinians who have been either pushed out of their homeland since 1948 or suffer the Jewish barbarity under occupation and are being murderd, maimed and imprisoned every day and have lost essentially every thing-except their well to resist occupation-those Palestinians are "Security Threat to Israel"??? So security is a monopoly for the jewish state???

The sooner a regime change in the jewish state takes place the better it's for all concerned: one secular democratic state for all those now living in historical Palestine regardless of race or religion to replace the racist jewish state.

The status quo of a militaristic expansionist jewish occupying Apartheid theocracy is just not sustainable: it’s a danger and a real threat to regional and international peace, security and stability: with its Nuclear Arsenal and militaristic idology, the jewish state has the serious potential to start a nuclear war especially that all Arab states and Iran will never accept to live under the nuclear Jewish threat.

Jordan & Ralph,
Most of you said is recycled propaganda...repeated at every turn over and over again by zionists...any informed person knows that Israel is a racist fascist Apartheid jewish Theocracy and is a colonial settler state as facts on the ground prove: now Israel occupies all of historical Palestine in addition to the Syrian Golan heights and Sheba farms.

"Arab Israelis"? Just what that is? There is no such thing at all: there are Palestinians under jewish occupation in all of Palestine; what is Israel: an illegitimate state with no constitution nor borders-creeping borders-an Apartheid state worse than the vanished South Africa.
“Arab Israelis” in the jewish parliment? another sick joke.

How is it possible for a "state" to claim establishment on the basis of religion and be secular at the same time?
The creation of the so called jewish state was a historical mistake as it was and continues to be a regional disaster.

And please enough of this recycled holocaust thing at every turn-it lost its meaning a long time; what do the Palestinians have to do with the holocaust any way? Go talk to the Germans and Europeans about it; the focus now should be on the Palestinian Holocaust which has been going on for the past 60 years and on the Apartheid state in which they are tormented day in and day out.

The Palestinians who have been either pushed out of their homeland since 1948 or suffer the Jewish barbarity under occupation and are being murderd, maimed and imprisoned every day and have lost essentially every thing-except their well to resist the brutal 60-year jewish occupation-those Palestinians are a "Security Threat to Israel"??? So security is a monopoly for the jewish state??? The security complex of jewish state is so simple to explain:a thief inside a stolen home would never feel secure-not even with a formidable military and nuclear aresnal-because deep inside the thief knows he is a thief;many conscentious jews have already come to this conclusion.

The sooner a regime change in the jewish state takes place the better it's for all concerned: one secular democratic state for all those now living in historical Palestine regardless of race or religion.

The status quo of a militaristic expansionist jewish occupying Apartheid theocracy is just not sustainable: it’s a danger and a real threat to regional and international peace and stability; with its Nuclear Arsenal and militaristic idology, the jewish state has a serious potential to start a nuclear war especially that all Arab states and Iran will never accept to live under the nuclear Jewish threat.

Dear Prof. Stevens-Arroyo,

Your essays always make me think! But is anti-Israeli sentiment today really comparable to anti-Catholicism in the 19th century?

Did the destruction of the Papal States result in the amelioration of anti-papism? Well, it seems to me, anti-Catholicism is very much extant in the 21st century. Sample it in the writings of your co-panellist Ms Jacoby or check out some of norrie hoyt’s fuming—aren’t Buddhists supposed to be calm?— anti-papists posts. No, angry anti-papists are alive and well and living in WaPo-stland, and the Papal States have been long defunct.

Regarding *19th c.* anti-papism I see the antagonism stemming from the worldwide nature of Catholicism. Our Roman Catholic Church has always been what sociologists call a “horizontal” institution: it transcends boundaries, we affirm in the Nicene Creed: one, holy, *catholic* and apostolic church. The small ‘c’ in catholic shows the word is an adjective meaning broad, wide-ranging, extensive &tc. I guess you could also use the words ‘global’ or ‘trans national’ as synonyms. Note the opposite of these: national, or local. Local or national institutions are ‘vertical’ as opposed to ‘horizontal’ associations, and these tend to view worldwide associations with, at best, suspicion and, at worst, outright hostility.

The two greatest *political* religions, children of the 19th century, show this horizontal/vertical divide neatly. Communism had its founding in the writings of Karl Marx and aspired to worldwide relevance, wherever the working class was found: a horizontal creed. Fascism was nationalism intensified, mixed up with force and will & all sorts of other inchoate notions: a vertical institution if there ever was one. (“Fascism,” avowed Mussolini, “is not for export”.) Roman Catholicism was in serious trouble with both: the fascists, ubernationalists to a man, distrusted Catholics as members of a worldwide movement whose loyalties were suspect; the communists aspired to be a global political faith, and as such, *competed* against Catholicism. The communists detested other religions with the vehemence of, well, another religion.

Hence, I would say, the problems of the Papal States resulted from the burgeoning movements towards national unity--pre fascist movements in Germany and Italy--upon the European continent. The Church was buffeted by winds—hurricane force in some cases—blowing across Europe. The travails of the Papal State were not the *causes* of anti-Catholicism, but its effects.

Where does that leave Israel? In a lot of trouble, I would say. The state itself is a vertical institution, with religion, race *and* nationalism, all intertwined in a potent mix. Hence, it generates traditional nationalist rage against it from neighbouring Arab states. Judaism itself is a *horizontal* institution, however, and has been since the destruction of the temple in AD70. Support for Israel *outside* the boundaries of Israel proper will eventually generate the same sentiments *against* worldwide institutions that have so long troubled Catholics.

Like you, I do not have the expertise or genes to attempt an answer to all this. But please keep up your thoughtful writing on this site. Better to ask the right questions than to have all the right answers!

With all best wishes,
Mary Cunningham

Scapegoat- One that is made to bear the blame of others (American Heritage Dictionary)

I do not see how I blamed black people for the suffering of Jews in my response to Prof. Stevens-Arroyo's column. In fact, I feel that my remarks were quite sympathetic to the plight of slavery that black people suffered under from the 17th to the 19th century.

Additionally, your labeling of my remarks and me as originating from "pseudo-con neo-fascists organizations of Jewish people," is quite inflammatory. I don't feel that any definition of the demagogic language that you use is necessary on my behalf.

Very nice and now we have pseudo-con neo-fascists organizations of Jewish people who scapegoat blacks and other minorities in the United States. What do you have to say about that, or did I miss something?

I don't understand the purpose of removing the "Jewish" aspect of the Jewish state.

First of all, Arab Israelis live within Israel proper, the vast majority of whom are good citizens of the state of Israel. The state imposes no direct discriminatory measures against them. In fact, there are Arab Muslims who serve in the Knesset. While Arabs still endure some unjust economic and social conditions in Israel, it does not pale in comparison to what blacks had to go through in the United States or what Jews had to tolerate in all places on earth before the creation of the State of Israel.

The comparison that the author makes between the Jewish ghettos of Europe and the current situation with the Palestinian situation is grossly misunderstood. The "threat" the Jews posed to Christians in the 19th century was merely a bigoted belief of many in Europe. They viewed Jews as an inferior and parasitic race that was unjustly given citizenship to their home country. Furthermore, as Jews competed for jobs with the gentiles of Europe, many became resentful of the Jews. Romantic nationalists, such as Karl Lueger in Austria, ran for office on explicitly anti-Semitic platforms and attracted many poor followers.

The Palestinians, on the other hand, have posed a legitimate security threat to the State of Israel. Their terrorist groups have killed innocent Israeli Jews as well as Arabs. After Israel offered almost 99% of the West Bank and East Jerusalem to the Palestinians, their terrorists attacked Israel unprovoked. Israel had to protect their citizens' safety by erecting the security wall. As a wise man once said, "The Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity."

If the "Jewish" nature of the Jewish state is removed, Palestinian radical groups could flood across the border and establish their own hateful theocracy, which would leave no room for Jewish survival in Israel.

Perhaps the author should call for the dissolution of other religious states in the world that perpetrate greater injustices and bigotry against their citizens on the basis of religion. Take for example Saudi Arabia. The Saudi state is controlled by radical Wahhabist Sharia law. Women are still stoned for committing adultery and Jews are not even allowed into the country.

Israel is a land where Jews, Christians, and Arabs explore the roots of their faith. Additionally, the vast majority of Israeli citizens are not fanatical Jews as the author makes it seem. Instead, most citizens are secular people who have are not dissimilar to many citizens of the secular West. Yes, conflicts brew from time to time, many of which have been very painful. But to suggest that the "Jewish" nature of the State of Israel is to blame is to have a lack of understanding of both the histories of the Jews and the Arab Muslims. Furthermore, singling out the "Jewish" nature of the State of Israel to blame for bigotry is teetering on the edge of anti-Semitism. I was certainly hurt by these accusations.

Although I have no reason to assume ill will here, I'm saddened to see the ignorance displayed in both the article and in most of the comments. The anaolgy with the Papal states does not hold because Israel was not established on a religious or theological basis. It was established as a national home for a people so old that they maintain an identity in which religion and culture/ethnicity are entwined; many Jews are entirely secular, but most Jews do not accept the notion that you can be a Christian or Muslim and still be a Jew. Still, Israel is not a "Judaic" state in the way that Iran and many other countries are Islamic.

Israel was authorized by the UN partition plan of 1947 under which two states would co-exist in Palestine: one Arab and one Jewish. Unfortunately, the Arabs -- both in Palestine and in neighboring Arab countries -- rejected the UN partition plan and attempted to destroy Israel by force of arms.
Fortunately for the Jews and unfortunately for the Arabs, Israel won this war and many Palestinian Arabs became refugees as a result.

But in answer to Anna O., the UN partition plan not only allowed for two states but also intended that Jerusalem and Bethlehem belong to neither state and be under international control. The 1948 war left Jerusalem divided between Israel and Jordan. Jews and Israeli Arabs were not allowed to visit the holy places in East Jerusalem until Israel conquered East Jerusalem in 1967. It is only under Israeli rule that freedom of access for all religions has been practiced in Jerusalem and Muslim authorities still control the Temple Mount area where the Dome of the Rock and the other great mosque still stand.

To Fila:

Were there even any churches to begin with?

Just a question.

I do agree that freedom of religon is better, rather that lack thereof, but really why the Middle East is in such a bad shape is not mainly because of no Freedom of Religon.

Let's not forget that the middle east is poverty ridden. Because of this, terrorist groups can thrive using the black market as their ladder.

Can someone explain to me just what the 1947 "partition" of Palestine did? Who authorized it on what just what grounds?

I have always been under the impression that that the Palestinians were supposed to have their own state, separate from Israel but with the right of visitng Moslem shrines in Jerusalem, just as Christians were to have that right. But apparently that wasn't the case.

What was the legal status of the Palestinians according to the partition? Citizens? Citizens of what? Or were they disenfranchised? Or what?

I've had a great deal of sympathy for the Palestinians since I met a young Palestinian in the early '60s. (He claimed he was the first Palestinian whom the Israelis had allowed to leave the country to study abroad. True? I don't know. He blamed the Zionists for the problems there, most especially the English Zionists whose attempt to establish an Israeli homeland antedated WW II by many, many years. He said that until the partition the *native* Jews and the Muslim Palestinians had gotten along very well together, but the influx into the area of non-Palestinian Jews was what caused the troubles.

I have since read that there is some friction in Israel today between the native Israelis and the immigrants, the natives being assumed to be yokels. Again, it is hard to gauge if this is true.

ISTM that Jimmie Carter is right -- there is no hope for the Middle East until the Palestinian problem is resolved fairly.

Ann O.

To Fila --

And Henry VIII used his separation from the Catholic Church to plunder the monastic houses of England and executed those who stood out against the break with Rome, like Thomas More. Plus, Elizabeth's regime had its share of executed Catholics as well.

I agree that church and state should be separate, as it's the only way to have a truly free and civil society. However, let's not pretend that the Protestant movement is lily-white of hue in the story of religious intolerance...

None of you seem to remember that the Inquistion in Spain also killed non-Catholic Christians as heretics. The Spanish Armada was sent to England to kill protestant Queen Elizabeth and take England back to Roman Catholicism, but the Armada was defeated in 1688. I believe in Separation of Church and State. Rome is dangerous. All its canon law is still in place to persecute what it deems heretics. There is religious freedom in Israel. How many churches exist in Saudi Arabia?

There is absolutely no comparison between the State of Israel and the papal states. The papal states stem from feudalism, while Israel was created in the pattern of European integral nationalism. Israel has a right to exist but it does not have a right to do whatever it wants. It has no right to exploit the Holocaust for its own selfish purposes. If Israel stopped exploiting the Holocaust perhaps the president of Iran would stop pretending the Holocaust never happened.

Andrew B.,

Much of what you wrote is correct.

But think about what you are saying: If a Christian housekeeper secretly baptised a Jewish child, the child instantly became a Catholic and had to be removed from its home and parents "...since formerly Jewish Catholic children could not be expected to be raised as Catholics by Jews".

Do you believe that anyone other than you on the face of the earth today believes that this practice makes sense or was anything other than a gratuitous act of cruelty?

And then you blame the Jewish parents, because they weren't supposed to have hired Christian help!

As I recall, the Mortara case, which you cite, helped bring about the downfall of the Papal States, so at least some good came out of that ill wind. Thanks be to God!

The Jews had two golden periods in their history: (1)First during and under Muslim rule in Spain (711AD-1492AD);Muslims have a history and tradition of peaceful coexistence with other cultures and faiths including the west: No clearer and better example can serve to illustrate the great Islamic liberal traditions towards other cultures and faiths than the multi-cultural, multi religious peaceful and productive co-existence than Muslim Spain (711-1492 AD), where Muslims, Christians and Jews lived under Islamic rule in such harmony and a great cultural and social synergy that produced a brilliant civilization-which civilization contributed substantially to and was a catalyst to the European Renaissance-until it was sadly destroyed by the Catholic inquisition against Muslims-including indigenous Spanish Muslims-and Jews who after their expulsion were accommodated and protected by the Islamic Ottoman empire and prospered thereafter; This unique historical and luminous experience of peaceful multi-cultural and multi-religious co-existence which predates America itself can surely serve as a model to be emulated by our modern world.

(2)Secondly, Jews have never prospered in modern times-at least since the atrocities of the holocaust-as they are now in America-but unfortunately they are-not all of them of course, only the likes of AIPAC-are pushing their luck: they are using America, its blood and treasure, to confront the Arab/Muslim world of 1.6 billion people from Morocco to Indonesia with prime geopolitical posture and unlimited resources and markets; observe the unprecedented zeal with which AIPAC and Jews in the Bush Administration and under the guise of the neo-cons pushed very hard and promoted the war on Iraq to Israel's advantage-which sooner or later will back fire on the Jews.

Israel is an illegitimate state born out of wood lock and atone for Europe’s guilt over the holocaust but at Arab expense-and the UN resolution that justified its creation was coerced-Israel never implemented or respected any UN resolution since its creation including 181/partition of Palestine in 1947 which created it by devouring most of the part assigned to the Arab state. Israel has been the source of war, instability,billigerence and aggression in the ME; it now occupies all of historical Palestine and have tormented, maimed, imprisoned and continue to imprison over 10,000 Palestinians including women and children-for resisting its brutal occupation-murdered and drove to despair untold number of Palestinians for the past 60 years-actually in a state of Apartheid.

There is no land or resources left for a so called Palestinian state.
To put an end to this historical disastrous flaw and mistake: create one secular democratic state for Palestinians-Muslims and Christian Arabs-as well as for Jews now living in Palestine. Israel has not been accepted by the people of the region as a Zionist racist Jewish theocracy-it never will be accepted regardless of all the formidable arsenal of weapons it has including its monopoly on nuclear weapons in the region; the South African apartheid regime disappeared thou it had a nuclear aresnal-faciltated by its close and natural ally, Israel.
The Jews are welcome to stay and live in Palestine as they always have lived peacefully in Arab/Muslim lands-Spain and Ottoman Turkey and presently Yemen and Morocco as examples.

Whoever said above that Israel has a good record of maintaining Non Jewish holy sites is smoking something. Israel right now is being brought before the United Nations holy sites panel on charges of being racist against non Jewish sites. Muslem men under the age of 45 are usually not allowed by Israeli authorities to visit the Dome of the rock and Bethelehem is surrounded by checkpoints preventing access to the some of the holiest churches in Christianity.
So, please do not say Israel has a good record of protecting muslem and christian sites. I speak from first hand experience.

Norrie Holt:

"in the P.S. was the kidnapping of Jewish children, baptising them as Catholic Christians, and then refusing to return the children to their parents, on the ground that the authorities certainly coulddn't let baptised children be raised by Jews."

I think you are confusing the seizing of children who had been baptized already and removing them from Jewish homes, with something which never happened in the Papal States - forced baptism after a kidnapping. The Baptism of Jewish children happened in a variety of ways. Sometimes, illegally hired Christian servants (Jews were not legally able to employ Christian servants) baptised ill Jewish children (such as the famous Edgar Mortara case). Other times, Jewish adults decided to convert, and while they were taking Catechetical instruction allowed their children to be baptised, then changed their minds. Since converts moved out of the Ghetto to the House of the Catechumens, when the parents (or sometimes one parent) decided against conversion after beginning the process, they could only go home alone, not with their now Catholic children, since formerly Jewish Catholic children could not be expected to be raised as Catholics by Jews.

No children were ever kidnapped by Papal agents and furtatatively baptised agains the will of their parents. The baptisms of Jewish children always occurred because of decisions made by their parents - either hiring illegal help, or making ill-advised decisions about conversion.

Just to correct:
While the government does have a great antiquities department that seeks to preserve many Holy Sites, I'm sorry to say that the gov't of Israel has a rather bad record of protecting Christian and Muslim Holy Places and/or allowing access to them. The positive thing is that many of the well to known sites have been allowed to preserve the systems of proctection they had set up (ie - a Muslim family that protects the Church of the Holy Sepulcher). The lesser known churches and mosques in disputed areas have been less honorably treated due to limited access for populations to keep them in good condition.
Sorry to stray a bit off the main topic, but I had to correct that! :)

Fabulous historical perspective! Maybe time will sort out the intrinsic problem of mistaking Judiasm with the Jewish state in this case as it did in 19th century Italy. Hopefully...

BA'AL I'm guessing you mean the president of Iran right? And for once you and I are in agreement on this essay. But don't worry I'm sure we'll be discussing opposite sides of the issue in the near future... (It's more fun that way)

Professor Stevens-Arroyo,

A very interesting article, raising interesting questions and devoid of polemics.

RE: PAPAL STATES: One interesting practice of the civil/theological officials in the P.S. was the kidnapping of Jewish children, baptising them as Catholic Christians, and then refusing to return the children to their parents, on the ground that the authorities certainly coulddn't let baptised children be raised by Jews.

RE: HOLY PLACES IN ISRAEL: The Government of Israel has an impeccable record of protecting and allowing access to the Holy Places in the 59 years since Israel was created.