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WHEN GOD'S FACE BECAME RED !

INNOCENT AMERICANS ARE DENIED REAL HC RIGHTS WITH FEDERAL APPEALS !!!

The pison experts have reported that there are 100,000 innocent Americans currently being falsely imprisoned along with the 2,300,000 total US prison population nationwide.

*** WHEN THE INNOCENT ARE ABANDONED BY THE GUILTY ***

Since our US Congress has never afforded poor prison inmates federal appeal legal counsel for their federal retrials,they have effectively closed the doors on these tens of thousands of innocent citizens ever being capable of possibly exonerating themselves to regain their freedom through being granted new retrials.

This same exact unjust situation was happening in our Southern States when poor and mostly uneducated Black Americans were being falsely imprisoned for endless decades without the needed educational skills to properly submit their own written federal trial appeals.

This unjust judicial process of making our poor and innocent prison inmates formulate and write their own federal appeal legal cases for possible retrials on their state criminal cases,is still in effect today even though everyone in our US judicial system knows that without proper legal representation, these tens of thousands of innocent prison inmates will be denied their rightful opportunities of ever being granted new trials from our federal appeal judges!!

Sadly, the true US *legal* Federal Appeal situation that occurs when any of our uneducated American prison inmates are forced to attempt to submit their own written Federal Appeals (from our prisons nationwide) without the assistance of proper legal counsel, is that they all are in reality being denied their legitimate rights for Habeas Corpus and will win any future Supreme Court Case concerning this injustice!

For our judicial system and our US Congressional Leaders Of The Free World to continue to pretend that this is a real and fair opportunity for our American Middle Class and Working Poor Citizens, only delays the very needed future change of Federal Financing of all these Federal appeals becoming a normal formula of Our American judicial system.

It was not so very long ago that Public Defenders became a Reality in this country.Prior that legal reality taking place, their were also some who thought giving anyone charged with a crime a free lawyer was a waste of taxpayers $$.

This facade of our Federal Appeal proce$$ is not worthy of the Greatest Country In The World!

***GREAT SOCIETIES THAT DO NOT PROTECT EVEN THEIR INNOCENT,BECOME THE GUILTY !

A MUST READ ABOUT AMERICAN INJUSTICE:
1) YAHOO AND 2) GOOGLE
MANNY GONZALES THE KID THAT EVERYONE FORGOT
IN THE CA PRISON SYSTEM.*** A JUDICIAL RIDE OF ONES LIFE !

lawyersforpooramericans@yahoo.com

Shorter Canyon Shearer:
"I do believe in spooks. I do, I do, I do."

C.S. Lewis articulated his beautiful conception of the afterlife in his book _The Great Divorce_. Many evangelicals like C.S. Lewis. I wish more evangelicals would read this book.

It is not surprising that some of the religions believe in hell while others are not sure what it is or if it even exists. One thing I find common among the religions in this country is that people believe what they want hell to be. This is the same mentality when it comes to many other topics such as homosexuality in the church. The problem here is that people are not really looking for the true answer. The Bible does not leave any doubt regarding such issues. Would you be surprised that ALL WHO DIE GO TO HELL, and that it is NOT a place of fire and suffering. really, what normal parent would stick his childs hand in fire for punishment. God is a God of love!

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The Muslim Brotherhood is the hell of the Jewish people. Read & weep.

July 5 news roundup of UK terror plot investigation activities and related news:

-- 45 Muslim doctors planned US terror raids. Daily Telegraph reports that "45 Muslim doctors threatened to use car bombs and rocket grenades in terrorist attacks in the United States during discussions on an extremist internet chat site". Police found details of discussion on the British Jihadist web site run by Younis Tsouli ("Terrorist 007"). Jihadists stated "We are 45 doctors and we are determined to undertake jihad and take the battle inside America.The first target which will be penetrated by nine brothers is the naval base which gives shelter to the ship Kennedy." Telegraph believes that is refers to the USS John F Kennedy, which is often at Mayport Naval Base in Jacksonville, Florida. Daily Telegraph states that the Jihadists also referred to using six Chevrolet GT vehicles and three fishing boats and blowing up petrol tanks with rocket propelled grenades. This would support Sky News report on July 4 of British Anglican cleric Canon Andrew White who has said of an April discussion with Al-Qaeda representative where "[h]e told me that they were going to start killing in the UK then the USA".

16 July 2007: The Northeast Intelligence Network was first to confirm during the June 30, 2007 edition of the Homeland Security Report that last month’s failed London car bomb plot had its tentacles reaching far into the United States. Now, NBC24, a television station in Toledo, Ohio is reporting that the FBI has questioned a Muslim doctor who recently moved to Toledo from the UK. Toledo also happens to be the corporate home of KindHearts for Charitable Humanitarian Development, an Islamic charity chaired by Hatem El-HADY, a Toledo physician, and a charity that has been the subject of an investigation for its reported ties to terror organizations.

The Toledo doctor was questioned by the FBI on July 4, 2007, less than a week after the failed bomb plot in London. According to information obtained through additional investigation conducted by the Northeast Intelligence Network, authorities are focused on a number of subjects in the U.S., including Muslim doctors, and others in the Toledo area who are also associated with a specific Toledo, Ohio mosque. When contacted by this agency, a spokesperson for the mosque declined to speak with this Northeast Intelligence Network investigator.

The July 4th visit to the unnamed Toledo doctor has prompted Toledo area Muslims to circulate an e-mail warning to Muslim doctors “to be ready for a knock at the door by the FBI,” and urged them to “have an attorney present” when answering questions asked by law enforcement officials. Following up on the investigation in Toledo, this Northeast Intelligence Network investigator spoke to a federal law enforcement official from Cleveland, Ohio who is familiar with the various overlapping investigations in Toledo. [MORE: Click on "read more" above or on article title to continue reading].

Responding to the e-mail being circulated, this law enforcement official stated that this type of “feigned cooperation” by the majority of Muslims, whether they are imams, Muslim community leaders or simply members of the Muslim community “is the norm.” “It has been my experience that it’s not unusual for Muslims to publicly portray a sense of cooperation, yet privately stonewall our investigations by refusing to answer questions, or limit their dialogue with law enforcement to communicating only though an attorney, even for the most basic of questions.”

This federal official, speaking to this investigator on the strict condition of anonymity, expressed his frustration at the misconception of a working dialogue between federal agents and “certain Muslim leaders and their representatives.” If you listen to them, they are actively trying to help us [law enforcement] weed out the bad guys,” stated this source. “That’s not quite the reality of it. There is a lot of stonewalling, unwillingness to share information about possible actions of other Muslims that could have criminal implications, or even ties to terrorism,” he added. “We’re talking about everything from possible terrorist funding to direct or peripheral ties to terrorism. When it comes down to them helping us by providing even some answers to the most basic of questions, there is a tremendous amount of resistance and unnecessary roadblocks. I can say from experience that instead of answering questions openly when asked, we have been put off, told to direct our inquiries to their legal representatives, or simply turned away. To make matters worse, we have been frequently told to ‘lay off’ by higher ups, to avoid causing a PR problem, I guess,” stated this source. “It’s definitely frustrating and the supposed cooperation, at least from my experience, is not being honestly portrayed.”

When asked about the media reports that Muslims are urged by Islamic advocacy groups to fully and truthfully cooperate with law enforcement whenever questioned, this source stated “I wish it was that easy, but it’s not like that at all. There is a tremendous unwillingness for Muslims to talk other Muslims, and it’s getting worse.”

This is not the first time a doctor in Toledo has been questioned or at the center of investigation. In an unrelated case, Dr. Mohammad ANVARI-HAMEDANI, 72, a licensed physician, pleaded guilty last April to 36 counts of money laundering, making illegal money transfers to Iran and tax evasion for sending at least $4 million to his native Iran over a four year period. ANVARI-HAMEDANI was sentenced to 60 days in a community jail and ordered to pay $1.15 million in fines and forfeitures. U.S. District Judge James Carr permitted ANVARI-HAMEDANI to serve his jail time on weekends so that he can continue practicing medicine.

Here is another site that keeps up-to-date on the Brotherhood's activities and mentions the suspect organizations involved in illegal activity.

http://www.douglasfarah.com/article/233/more-gleaned-from-the-holy-land-foundation-exhibits.com

This is the document, I think related to the CURRENT TRIAL.

http://www.nefafoundation.org/miscellaneous/HLF/US_v_HLF_Unindicted_Coconspirators.pdf

It lists some organizations and people as unindicted coconspirators such as:

VII. The following are individuals/entities who are and/or were members of the US
Muslim Brotherhood:

1. Abdel Rahman Alamoudi
2. Gaddor Ibrahim Saidi
3. Islamic Society of North America, aka ISNA
4. Muslim Arab Youth Association, aka MAYA
5. Nizar Minshar
6. North American Islamic Trust, aka NAIT
7. Raed Awad
8. Tareq Suwaidan

The Muslim Brotherhood's WAR ON THE WEST: 3 of 4

In Britain in 1997, the Muslim Brotherhood founded the Muslim Association of Britain (MAB). This group claims to be moderate, and promotes missionary (dawah) work among the young.
Friday, June 15, 2007By Adrian Morgan

In Britain in 1997, the Muslim Brotherhood founded the Muslim Association of Britain (MAB). This group claims to be moderate, and promotes missionary (dawah) work among the young. Its founder, Kamal Tawfik Helbawy, was at that time the Brotherhood's European spokesman. Born in Egypt in 1939, he had been a member of the Brotherhood since the age of 12. He co-founded the World Assembly of Muslim Youth (WAMY) in Saudi Arabia in 1972 with Abdullah bin Laden, Osama's nephew. WAMY is an organization which has been accused of funding terrorist organizations, including Hamas. Kamal Helbawy was WAMY's first president.
In November 1997, in the same year that he had founded MAB, Helbawy helped to found the Muslim Council for Britain (MCB), which was officially inaugurated on March 1, 1998. As Helbawy stated in a 2005 interview: "I played a role in the establishment of the MCB. Our objective was that the MCB should remain independent and its primary function should be to represent and protect the interests of Muslims."

The MCB, whose senior members have supported extremism, enjoyed an unprecedented position with Blair's government, acting as advisers on all things Islamic. In June 2005 its then-secretary general Iqbal Sacranie was given a knighthood by Blair, even though he is an anti-Semite who wishes to see Holocaust Memorial day scrapped. In 1996, Sacranie supported plans to invite Osama bin Laden to the UK to lecture to Muslims, claiming the terrorist was an "Islamic Scholar". Despite boycotting memorials for the Shoah, Sacranie nonetheless attended a memorial service for Sheikh Yassin, the founder of terror group Hamas. This service was held at London's Central Mosque in 2004.

In 2005, the MCB persuaded Blair to introduce a bill which would have outlawed any criticism of Islam, which was neutered by the Lords, parliament's Upper House. In June 2006, the unelected MCB succeeded in persuading the elected Blair government to abandon its 18-month campaign to outlaw forced marriage, which annually affects at least 250 young Muslim girls.

The government has been so manipulated by the claims of the "moderate" Muslims in Britain, that MI6 and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office have actively courted the Muslim Brotherhood. The overtures to the Brotherhood have been made through a unit called the Engaging With the Islamic World Group" (EWIG) which was founded in 2003. EWIG is led by a 27-year old former Muslim radical called Mockbul Ali. In July 2006, this group used taxpayers' money to pay Yusuf al-Qaradawi, spiritual leader of the Brotherhood, to attend a conference in Turkey. On July 14, 2005, one week after the London bombings, Mockbul Ali argued that a visa should again be given to Qaradawi. That document and others can be found here.

After the London suicide bombings of July 7, 2005, the Blair government invited Tariq Ramadan, son of Said Ramadan and grandson of Hassan al-Banna, to sit on a working committee. This committee was set up to find ways of preventing radicalism amongst Britain's youth. Ramadan is not even a UK citizen, and according to Jean Charles Brissard, he has had meetings with known terrorists in his native Switzerland. The UK government sponsors a website promoting "the radical middle way" of Islam, where Ramadan has his own page. Tariq Ramadan is still barred from entering to the US, though he insists he is not a Muslim Brotherhood member.

US Politicians Duped By The Brotherhood

In the United States, one individual maintained a pretense of "moderation" which would later embarrass the left and the right. According to the testimony of Dr Michael Waller to the US Senate Committee on the Judiciary, Abdurahman Alamoudi was a member of the Muslim Brotherhood. A man born in Eritrea in 1951, he arrived in the US in 1979 and became a naturalized US citizen on May 23, 1996. From 1985 onwards he became involved in many Muslim groups. In 1990 he founded the Washington DC-based American Muslim Council (AMC), which Waller states "has been described as a de facto front of the Muslim Brotherhood." The AMC was an affiliate of the American Muslim Foundation, which was also headed by Alamoudi. Despite this, in June 2002 the FBI called the AMC "the most mainstream Muslim group in the United States."

What is of concern is the manner in which Alamoudi persuaded US authorities under two administrations of his reliability. Around 1993, he was an adviser for the Pentagon on which Muslim chaplains should serve in the US military. He continued this role until 1998. From 1997 he acted for the State Department as a "goodwill ambassador" to Muslim countries. He was regularly at the Clinton White House and had advised Hillary Rodham Clinton on managing iftar dinners since 1996. Alamoudi had made donations to the Democrat party but was open to wooing the opposition.

In 1998, as Frank Gafney recounted, right-wing Republican Grover Norquist formed the Islamic Institute, which aimed to recruit Muslim and Arab Americans to support the GOP. Alamoudi made contributions both to the Islamic Institute and later, in 2000 and 2001, he made payments to a lobbying firm connected with Norquist.

Alamoudi's Brotherhood connections were not touted openly, but in August 1997 he was publicly proclaiming on Fox TV that Hamas was a "freedom fighting organization". Hamas had started its first bombings of Israeli civilians in February 1996, a year earlier. On October 28, 2000, Alamoudi attended an anti-Israel protest at Lafayette part outside the White House, where he was caught on video proclaiming "I have been labeled … as being a supporter of Hamas. Anybody supporters of Hamas here? Hear that, Bill Clinton. We are all supporters of Hamas. I wish they added that I am also a supporter of Hezbollah. Anybody who supports Hezbollah here?"

Shortly afterward the White House outburst, Hillary Clinton returned a donation of $1,000 to her election war chest, which Alamoudi had presented on May 25 of that year. Alamoudi embarked upon at least 10 clandestine trips to Libya. On September 28, 2003 after returning from a multi-stage excursion he was arrested at Dulles International Airport. He was handed an 19-count indictment on October 23, on charges including money laundering, dealing with a prohibited nation.

Alamoudi had been stopped at Heathrow on August 16, 2003 before boarding a flight to Syria, and had $340,000 of Libyan money seized. On July 30, 2004 he pleaded guilty to three charges - violating conditions barring transport to and commerce with prohibited nations (Libya), failure to disclose to IRS his income, and lying to ICE federal investigators. On October 15, 2004, Alamoudi was given a jail sentence of 23 years. He had told officials that he provided Libyan money to London-based Saudi dissidents to finance a plot to assassinate Saudi Crown Prince Abdullah.

Politicians may have been fooled by Alamoudi, who headed sixteen US-based Islamist organizations, but despite what is known of the Muslim Brotherhood's support of terrorism and extremism, US politicians are now openly courting the Brotherhood. On April 5 this year in Egypt. House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer met with Mohammed Saad el-Katatni, the leader of the Brotherhood's 55 members within the Egyptian parliament. Hamdi Hassan, the Brotherhood's spokesman, said Hoyer met with el-Katani once at the parliament building and later at the home of the US ambassador to Egypt.

On May 27, a delegation by four members of the House of Congress again met with Mohammed Saad el-Katatni in Egypt. The delegation was led by David Price, a Democrat who represents North Carolina.

The Enemy Within

While Said Ramadan was establishing European bases for the Muslim Brotherhood in Geneva and Munich, similar actions were being taken in the United States. In 1962, an organization called the "Cultural Society" was set up, the first Muslim Brotherhood body to be formed on American soil. Muslim Brotherhood members are sworn to secrecy when they join up ("kitman" or concealment) so exact details of this group are murky. The Cultural Society mainly drew its recruits from foreign Muslim students at midwestern universities, such as Illinois, Indiana and Michigan. The name "Cultural Society" was employed to draw attention away from its Brotherhood identity. The following year, the Muslim Students Association (MSA) was formed by the US Brotherhood, and up until the 1970s, new bodies proliferated.

The website of a newer Brotherhood-founded group, the Muslim American Society (MAS) describes its founders as "pioneers" - "The call and the spirit of the movement reached the shores of North America with arrival of Muslim students and immigrants in the late 1950s and early 1960s. These early pioneers and Islamic movement followers established in 1963 the Muslim Student Association (MSA) of the U.S and Canada as a rallying point in their endeavor to serve Islam and Muslims in North America. Other services and outreach organizations soon followed, such as the North American Islamic Trust (NAIT), the Islamic Medical Association (IMA), the Muslim Arab Youth Association (MAYA) and the Muslim Youth of North America (MYNA), to name a few."

All of the groups listed above were formed by the Muslim Brotherhood. MYNA was founded by Ahmed Elkadi, who was the US Brotherhood's treasurer from the 1970s until 1984, when he became its president. He held this position until 1995, but has since left the Brotherhood. He did not resign from his position as president of the US Ikhwan - he was pushed.

Other groups were founded by the US Brotherhood later - the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA) was formed in the 1980s as an outgrowth of the Muslim Students Association (MSA).

The Muslim American Society, under Brotherhood leadership, was incorporated in 1993 in Illinois. The decision to incorporate the MAS was made at a meeting of 40 Ikhwan (MB) members at a hotel near the Alabama-Tennessee state line. Shaker Elsayed, an leader within MAS, has admitted the Brotherhood had founded the Muslim American Society, saying: "Ikhwan members founded MAS, but MAS went way beyond that point of conception."

MAS is based in Falls Church, Virginia, the same town where Abdurahman Alamoudi lived. Five miles away in Alexandria lay the US headquarters of the World Assembly of Muslim Youth or WAMY, which was co-founded by a Brotherhood member, Kamal Helbawy. On Friday May 28, 2004 the WAMY offices were raided by agents of the FBI, ICE and the Joint Terrorism Task Force. An affidavit from a customs agent claimed that one WAMY publication included a section entitled "Animosity Toward the Jews", and stated: "The Jews are humanity's enemies: they foment immorality in this world." The affidavit mentioned links with WAMY and the terrorist group Hamas.

The director of MAS' "Freedom Foundation", Mahdi Bray, pushed for the release of a Falls Church Citizen, Ahmed Omar Abu Ali, who had been accused of plotting to assassinate George W. Bush in al al-Qaeda plot. Ali, who had been educated at the Saudi-funded Islamic Saudi Academy in Alexandria, was convicted on November 22, 2005 and sentenced to 30 years' jail on March 29, 2005.

MAS, which has 10,000 members in 53 chapters across the US, is also involved in the disputes at Minneapolis-St Pauls airport, where Somali taxi drivers have refused to carry passengers with alcohol. Three quarters of the 900 drivers are Muslim, mostly from Somalia. Last year, 5,400 potential rides were turned down because passengers had alcohol. The Metropolitan Airport Commission sought guidance from Muslims, and a fatwa was made by the MAS. Khalid Elmasary declared: "It is expressly stated. Transportation of alcohol for Muslims is against the Islamic faith, and therefore forbidden." The issue still has not been resolved.

It is sometimes hard to work out if such Muslim "representatives" are really following the ways of the prophet, or are following the plans laid out in Muslim Brotherhood's "Project" manifesto for gaining national and global power.

Mahdi Bray, who is based in Washington DC where he has a radio talk-show, is accused of taking part in protests were calls for the death of Jews. Steve Emerson in his book American Jihad stated that at the October 28 2000 rally for Hezbollah and Hamas at Lafayette Park, "Mahdi Bray, stood directly behind Alamoudi and was seen jubilantly exclaiming his support for these two deadly terrorist organizations." Three weeks earlier, Bray had "coordinated and led a rally where approximately 2,000 people congregated in front of the Israeli Embassy in Washington, D.C.... at one point during the rally, Mahdi Bray played the tambourine as one of the speakers sang, while the crowd repeated: 'Al-Aqsa is calling us, let's all go into jihad, and throw stones at the face of the Jews."

Bray, who was awarded a Congressional Black Caucus award in September last year, has issued a press release claiming "victory" in the settlement of vindictive lawsuit launched by the Islamic Society of Boston, which attacked 16 organizations and individuals, including Steve Emerson.

There was no settlement agreed between the parties - the Islamic Society of Boston mysteriously dropped its lawsuit, which claimed "defamation", on May 29, 2007. With MAS coming to its defense, and with Muslim Brotherhood member Abdurahman Alamoudi listed as one its founders and trustees, with the Muslim Brotherhood's spiritual leader Yusuf al-Qaradawi as another early trustee, it is not unreasonable to assume that the Islamic Society of Boston began its life in 1982 as another outreach of the Muslim Brotherhood. In 2002, Qaradawi appeared by videolink at an ISB fund-raising event.

The ISB, which is building the largest mosque in Eastern United States at Roxborough, Boston, was in January 2006 defended by Arsalan Iftikhar, the legal director of the Council of American Relations (CAIR), who said: "Unfortunately, I see the Boston case as indicative of a growing trend in anti-Muslim rhetoric that has grown after 9/11." It should be noted that the two co-founders of CAIR, Omar Ahmad and Nihad Awad, were officials of the Islamic Association for Palestine, which was established by Hamas member Mousa Abu Marzook, and has been called a "Hamas Front". Nihad Awad and Ahmed Bedier, head of CAIR's Florida chapter, have both openly pledged their support for Hamas, which itself is derived from the Muslim Brotherhood.

With its previous links to Muslim Brotherhood members, ISB may be thankful that it was not listed as an "unindicted co-conspirator" in a plot to fund Hamas. This has been the recent fate of CAIR. In a trial in Dallas, Texas, Ghassan Elashi, the head of CAIR's Texas chapter, is accused with a staggering list of co-conspirators. Elashi was also head of Texas branch of the outlawed Holy Land Foundation. The indictment maintains that other officials from the Texas branch of the Holy Land Foundation, had conspired with numerous others to supply funds to Hamas. Ghassan Elashi and his brothers Bayan and Basman were convicted of "conspiracy to provide material support to terrorists" on April 13, 2005. Elashi was given a seven year sentence on October 13, 2006.

The named co-conspirators include eight Muslim Brotherhood individuals and organizations: Abdurahman Alamoudi, Gaddor Ibrahim Saidi, the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA), Muslim Arab Youth Association (MAYA), Nizar Minshar, North American Islamic Trust (NAIT), Raed Awad and Tareq Suwaidan. The trial will begin on July 16. The trial will hopefully clarify further the exact roles of CAIR, and also the mysterious American contingent of the Muslim Brotherhood.

The Muslim Brotherhood is not a body to be trusted. It claims peace and moderation, while simultaneously planning to conquer the globe by fair means or foul. It propagates anti-Semitism, and justifies and supports the murder of Israeli civilians. Its current motto is: "Allah is our objective. The Prophet is our leader. Koran is our law. Jihad is our way. Dying in the way of Allah is our highest hope." Those politicians who try to do deals with such a group are betraying not only the people who elected them and the nations they serve, but they jeopardize the security of the Western world at large.

This article was also published at FamilySecurityMatters.org

Dear hellfire Christians,

You people suck. You think that being judgmental is going to get you into your so called heaven? And you want every little thing you do in this life to be punished by burning eternally? I know your soul isn't spotless. Mine isn't either, but you know what? I'm not a bad person. I try not to lie, I don't hurt people, I don't steal, yes, I've done things which I'm not proud of, but you know what? I live with that. I accept it, and try to do better. But I'm also not afraid of your devil and hell that don't exist. They're medieval scare tactics that were used by fanatical Christian dogmatists to make people join their religion. Unfortunately, the fanatics still seem to use them. This is the 21st century. Come out of the dark ages, all ye dummies who are lost.

Furthermore, I find it funny that you people take the bible completely literal. But you see, even if it were literal, it takes place waaaaay in the past, so you don't have a solid clue about any of it, chumps. I think there's a life after death. Some sort of continued existence, but it's nowhere near as black or white as heaven and hell. There's so much we don't know about the universe, I'd say we barely even know one trillionth of what there is to know. Aliens? They're probably right in the next galaxy, but humanity, which thinks itself so great, is really terribly, terribly puny, and can't figure out to how get much further than the moon. Get used to the idea. You too, are a member of this puny race. So, suffice it to say, I don't like fanatical, dare I say, retarded Christians. You're crazy. I dislike satanists too, because they're crazy, and possibly evil and cruel. I don't like any religion that teaches intolerance and cruelty, and punishment. But uh, think twice before you condemn others. Or you might find yourself trapped in your own metaphysical hell, bub.

There is no god, no angels, no heaven or hell, and no souls, and the Bible is just an old book written by a group of superstitious dessert dwellers who thought that the earth was flat and who, in the words of author Sam Harris, "would have regarded the wheelbarrow as a major technilogical breakthrough." Heaven is the ultimate in wishful thinking (spending eternity in paradise--figure it out), and hell was created by those who have the arrogance to think that the universe has to conform to their ideal of ultimate justice. When you die, you rot and your only form of immortality is that your atoms and molecules are transformed into another form of matter. Grow up and realize that this life is the only time that you will ever spend as a conscious entity. Let reason, not blind faith, be your guide, and always remember, in the words of the late Carl Sagan, that "extraordinary events require extraordinary evidence."

gkdpni rqnblpjuv emfoiv ljxzuhqgi cagvqhnw tacdkp olezc

gkdpni rqnblpjuv emfoiv ljxzuhqgi cagvqhnw tacdkp olezc

Surrender to ODIN the God of Gods the warrior King.
There is no God but Odin all others are false.
Feel the Love...Feel the Wonder...Live Forever
I am the Witness to His immortal Power for I have
seen Him and bowed before Him and felt his Love.
ODIN ODIN ODIN

Our Catholic Church's doctrine/foundation is based on many false claims:

e.g. the infallibility of the Pope and sole salvation only by being Catholic.

What does Professor Crossan and other religious historians or conclude about the historic
reliability of said foundation: (Think ill of Crossan’s work if you want but he has done his
homework as shown by the content of the books he has written- See
www.amazon.com for a compilation. Ditto for Schillebeeckx)

John 14: 26 not historic ( 62-. Spirit under Trial: (1) 1Q: Luke 12:11-12 = Matt
10:19-20; (2) Mark 13:11 = Matt 10: 19-20 = Luke 21:14-15; (3) John 14:26.)

Matt 16: 18-19 not historic (73- Who Is Jesus?: (1) Gos. Thom. 13; (2a) Mark
8:27-30 = Matt 16:13-20 = Luke 9:18-21; (2b) Gos. Naz. 14; (2c) John 6:67-69.)

1 Timothy- not written by St. Paul (See Crossan’s “In Search of Paul”, Harper, San
Francisco, 2004, p.105)

2 Peter 1:20
Since Schillebeeckx basically ruled out prophecies by concluding God does not know
the future, one can rule out the infallible nature of this verse.

Also from Raymond Brown’s, An Introduction to the New Testament, 2 Peter was
the last canonical work written i.e. ~ 130 AD, author unknown. Tis a bit dated for use in claiming infallibility plus the verse is not from Jesus or Peter but some possible remembrance of a scribe.

From another source:
Also think about the logic (or lack thereof).

“I believe the Bible is inspired.” “Why?” “Because it says so.” Would your
anyone let that logic pass if it came from the followers of any other book
or person? “I believe x is inspired because x says so.” Fill in the blanks:
x=Pat Robertson
x=the ayatolloah Sistani
x=David Koresh
x=the Koran”
more “logic”?

“I believe there is One God Jehovah because He is revealed in the infallible
Bible. I believe the Bible is infallible because it is the Word of the One God Jehovah.”

Again, this what some leading experts are saying about the foundations of infallibility etc. As I have noted before, I find it disturbing that the Vatican remains silent concerning the conclusions of Crossan and Schillebeeckx.

What do I believe? I ,like many Catholics these days, are wondering about that quite a bit.

I suggest the writings of J. D. Crossan and also Karen Armstrong to get a more detailed analysis. Science requires reading the texts cover to cover especially if you are going to make expert commentary on said writings.

Bill L: "I get a better appreciation of the Catholic Church's position that the bishops and the pope, not theologians are the arbiters of truth.
Truth never changes with the times or fads. A true Church would never change it's doctrines. An individual changes beliefs or ideas with time. A Church with God's protection will never change beliefs regardless of the fallible people that may lead the Church."

Two problematic assumptions there - First, your argument is essentially "If God's church exists, then it would probably be unchanging". However, the reverse does not follow from that. You can't then say "If I find an unchanging church it is probably God's".
The Catholic Church has strong resistance to change built into its very structure. First of course there is unchanging scripture. Secondly, consider how the leadership is chosen. The Pope appoints Archbishops and Cardinals. To rise to the rank of Cardinal, you may well need the approval of at least two different Popes. The Cardinals then pick the next Pope. It would be hard to design a human structure that would tend towards more stability than that over time. So stability could well be produced by humans, and need not be Divine.

The second problematic assumption is that stability is a virtue in the first place. I will grant you that universal Truths exist, although I am in no better a position to know that than you are. But what might they be like? For example a True description of the planet earth changes from moment to moment. "True" may not be some statement of universal laws, but a complete representation of every detail of the universe at every moment. In ethics, there may be universally true principles, but then there are also cultural norms, which many mistake for universal principles. And even a universal principle might have very different results when applied to very different situations, and time has a way of changing typical situations.

But most importantly, your argument that the church should be stable rests on your assumption that God would give us a set of Revealed Truths, rather than just letting us discover them on our own. If True Revelation from God exists, then indeed we might expect the True church to be unchanging. But if God has not chosen to give special revelation, then given that human knowledge progresses towards Truth, an unchanging church would be the farthest from the truest church. Not because God and Truth change, but because our knowledge of God and Truth change.

I would propose that you are uncomfortable with societal change, and have succeeded in finding a God that is on your side.

Mo thinks he's James Joyce.
He isn't

(love you anyway, Mo)

"And if my cat is God incarnate, I'd better start sacrificing mice."

No, your cat may not be God incarnate, but he certainly THINKS that he is! More to the point, he expects you to worship him like the God that he knows he is. :D

Hey, Mo... Ever hear of punctuation? Using capitals to begin a sentence?

materialistic faith and the atlas copoco delusion.
the materialistc paganistic greco-roman cult ,brought to man kind atlas copoco (a stone image of a naked musclan man who is carrying on his head and shoulder another stone of the earth ball, as god of the earth).paul the falsfier ,instead of taking the divine teaching of jesus son of marry miracle from the creator lord who created marry and her son (may god extoll their names till the last day),instead, he paul proclaimed to man kind the delusion that jesus is the son of god ,the delusion and falsefication of paul gased another clusters of delusions ,the dramatic performer delusion of jesus son of god who died on the cross for the sin of mankind???,the state of mind delusion became manifested in the stone image of jesus that people world wide deluded in,if you drive in white community you see the image of jesus in white skin and silky hair ,if you drive in the black community you see the image of jesus in dark skin and afro hair ,in the spanish community you see the image of jesus in spanish sason,in the mid east you see the image of jesus like those of the mediterinans,.
the materialistc faith mentality ,that you need to see and touch god in order to belive in him is the same mentailty of those that belive in the incarnation , the son, or the daugther of god (people befor belived that angels are the daughters of god)??? ,you will never see god in this life, you can only see his signs, like the sun or the moon or your self as human being,if you ever see god in this life or the son of god or the daughter of god you got to be on serious maldy delusion no more no less than the stone delusion of atlas copoco who carrying the earth ball on his shoulder,what will happen to the earth if atlas decide to take a feista?or if he need to go to the bath room?same people who belive that the son is the savior are the same people who belive that he was nailed on the cross and no body saved him including his own father?????????????????????????????????
the delusion is exported and franchised thru the planet earth ,you see the image of jesus in the church ,in peoples necks on the cross ,up on the mountains ,in public parks,.........
last but not least is the bible the word of god?
literalisticly,logicalisticly,allegoricalisticly,name any scale or tape measure in this world and in the here after ,the bible proved to be man made.
the delusion is so deep ,satan is deeper.,fortify thy self by knowing you creator allmighty lord who created this life and the here after.
please read the complet truth about jesus son of marry mercey to mankind in the last divine revelation from the allmighty creator lord.

Well He better "restoke" the Sun before it runs out of hydrogen in one to five billion years. He also better do something about all those asteroids wizzing by. The Moon's changing orbit and those changing magnetic poles might also mess with heaven on earth even before the hydrogen burn-out begins.

Of course, as per Aquinas, Heaven is a "spirit state" so who cares about asteroids et al.

And some words of wisdom from Professor JD Crossan (an On Faith panelist) about atonement theology:

(from his book, "Who is Jesus" co-authored with Richard Watts)

"Moreover, an atonement theology that says God sacrifices his own son in place of humans who needed to be punished for their sins might make some Christians love Jesus, but it is an obscene picture of God. It is almost heavenly child abuse, and may infect our imagination at more earthly levels as well. I do not want to express my faith through a theology that pictures God demanding blood sacrifices in order to be reconciled to us."

"Traditionally, Christians have said, 'See how Christ's passion was foretold by the prophets." Actually, it was the other way around. The Hebrew prophets did not predict the events of Jesus' last week; rather, many of those Christian stories were created to fit the ancient prophecies in order to show that Jesus, despite his execution, was still and always held in the hands of God."

"In terms of divine consistency, I do not think that anyone, anywhere, at any time, including Jesus, brings dead people back to life."

The bible only speaks of hell (translated from Greek or Hebrew) as a grave, big cave down in the earth, etc. There is, though, reference to a consuming fire (grk gahenna) what will consume (aka lake of fire...after final great white throne judgement - following millenial reign of Christ on earth)..not with red horned beings with pitchforks or turning people on a spit. All myth with no biblical basis. Just as going to heaven is a widespread deception. Scriptures speaks of those who sleep until the ressurrections. Yes, two. Very clear scripture states no man has ascended to heaven. Gods kingdom will be set up on this earth, with a new heaven and earth following the millenial reign of Christ.

MJHarris, you are correct. Everything you have quoted from the NT is true. Christ died for you so that grace might reign through righteousness to bring you eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. It is true. No worries about taking it out of context as what you have quoted, in my opinion, stands on it own. "For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous." Believe this and you will be blessed.

Mr. Shearer - I gather you are one of the aforementioned fundamentalists? I expect it will be a great relief to be able to finally stop preaching when you get to heaven - you can then listen to a real expert for all eternity.

But wait - nothing lasts forever, and all is change. What then??

Heaven is an Ancient Superstition
Heaven is Bad for Morality

without much serious contradiction, we all have established that
a. heaven is a myth that was spun at about about the time of the 7-day-creation story and the Serpant Who Talked. No serious grown-ups believe either story, and none should believe the Heaven superstition either. It is a Fairy Tale. Akin to the tooth fairy.

b. Heaven/Hell have been used by religious groups to control the behavior of their adherants.

The reward/punishment scheme is at the LOWEST level of moral reasoning, it promotes behavior based on extrinsic rewards and punishments rather than behavior based on truly moral intrinsic motivation.

Any dissent? Anyone still believe in the tooth fairy?

Or can we move on from this silly story and talk about serious moral issues in the world, like helping the poor, afflicting the powerful, and keeping wars to a minimum

Mr. Shearer, You know where you can put it don't you? You are the kind of "Christian" who would screw you on a used car. I have dealt with the holier than thou before.

it makes me so angry that we are quick to judge and condem others who are different from us but not so quick to judge our selfs and our friends for their mistakes ( I will not use the word sin) For example, how repbulicians condem homosexuals and pass laws to prevent them from being married but when senator Foley got caught sexual solisting childern over the internet the repbulicans support him, no one in the relgious right said any thing. being a homeosexual is not a crime but sexual solisting childern over the internet is. Where is the christian out rage now! Why is'nt Mr Foley going to your so called hell? it's ok if a christian commits a horrable crime but being differt from the social christian life is a moral sin. I tell you why, your a cult your ridge laws are based on nothing more than fear, supersition, and the prevert desire for every body to be the same! just look at the supreme courts decsition to resegregate schools this last weeks it shows the relgious right is nothing but a bunch of rich white guys who live in the past!

Bill L, what does God look like? What does God's voice sound like? In simple words, how do you know it's God? If it's a supernatural being that says it's God but is not God what is it?

Woe be it to those who violate the first commandment, talk to and make deals with "strange Gods."

Either http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul is so or the Bible is a hoax. Pick one.

Bill L,

I see you are still talking to God. Please invite the rest of us during the next revelation!!!!

Thomas Paul Moses Baum, did you seek the permission of you bishop before going out?

Reading the theologians on these threads, both amateur and professional, I get a better appreciation of the Catholic Church's position that the bishops and the pope, not theologians are the arbiters of truth.
Truth never changes with the times or fads. A true Church would never change it's doctrines. An individual changes beliefs or ideas with time. A Church with God's protection will never change beliefs regardless of the fallible people that may lead the Church.

I pity those of you that reject the loving God! You make yourselves your own god. How little you are!

Violating the first commandment is also the most common sin, just a tad ahead of violations of number one-one, "Thou shalt not believe thy own lies."

Ah yes, beware of death through sin.

Mirror mirror on the wall what's the greatest sin of them all?

Violating the first commandment, no strange Gods, you silly boy.

http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul and go to hell the old fashioned way, worship a strange God.

Did Pascal take that into account in his calculation?

Also to HJ:

If you are comfortable with my sort of thinking, you might find others you are comfortable being around here -

http://www.uua.org/visitors/6798.shtml

Dave

To Henry James:

Thanks. (I think I've read one of your books too).

Here is a bunch of my older ramblings.
http://www.davegentile.com/philosophy/main.html
I may have something published soon in the philosophy of science, but its still out for review at this point.

Dave

CS: Your knowledge of Islam is lacking. See Surah 2:62, it says I'm going to Heaven if Islam is true...

Dave: An interesting thing I've noticed is that biblical literalists approach the Quran in the same way, and even more out of context. There are many individual lines, which if I pulled out of the context of the bible, you would say I need to read the WHOLE bible. Same with the Quran. Also, if we had only the bible to go on, we might not be able to predict the exact form of the Catholic religion. The point is, depending on the form of Islam, and how conservative they are, many would disagree about what your "reward" is.

CS: It is in your best interest to find out if it is true;

D: Would you say I've not done my homework?

CS: the best way to do that is to Repent and Trust

D: And if upon examination we find the source untrustworthy? Particularly when compared to the gospel of Reality?

Canyon: "Romans Chapter 5 covers this issue, especially verse 12, 'Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned.'"

If there's one thing about most Christians who take the Bible literally that I don't understand, it's the tendency to quote one part of the Bible as saying one thing while another part says something completely opposite.

After reading the above quote by Canyon Shearer, I skimmed the rest of the posts, waiting for someone to bring up what's said in Romans 5 *after* verse 12. Let's consider verses 12 through the rest of the chapter.

"12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

20The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
- NIV, courtesy BibleGateway.com

Let's consider my favorite part, verses 18 and 19 of Romans 5.

"18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous."

While Romans 5 does clearly state that it is through one man's sin that all have sinned, the above-quoted verses clearly state that it is through Jesus' actions that *all* are redeemed. The many were made sinners, and the many will be made righteous. Now, I'm not a biblical scholar. I consider myself agnostic, regardless of what some quote posted earlier might say about atheism being the only logical choice other than a belief in the supernatural. So unless I'm misinterpreting something here, Jesus' actions cover all of mankind, despite what our state is at death or Judgment Day or whenever one believes us to be condemned or rewarded.

Now, I may be guilty of the same error I accuse Canyon Shearer of, namely quoting one part of the Bible and possibly taking the quote out of context. So, please, someone educate me on this point. As some would believe, my eternal soul hangs in the balance.

delusions and stones.
the fuels of hell is none but peoples and stones ,mankind is given reflector heart and eloquant tongue, instead of going around in this universe which every thing prove the existance of the creator allmighty god ,instead, people go to their deusions and stones that never exist like the mytho so called son of god ,like lord science who created this universe ,like lord philsophy which never took mankind no where but more deep in delusions,like lord logic and prophet math that doesnot take you infite no where.why allmighty god who created this universe need a son for ?why he need to scarifice his son for? this is none but serious delusion from satan to mankind.god allmighty does not need to demonstrate his love to mankind by nailing his son on the cross ,this is absloute nonsene never befit the allmighty god who could ,v guided all mankind in no time .the serious question ever that mankind need to ask himself ,did the so called son of god created any thing in this universe?did sceince created this universe? did philsophy created this universe?did allmighty dollar created any thing in this universe?people please come out of the delusions and start worshiping the allmighty creator lord who created every and any thing including man and stones .at the day of judgement every man will come in front of the creator lord carrying on his head and shoulder the same thing he or she were carrying in this life.heaven and hell is more realistic than this life,this life is temporal while the here after is eternal.remeber mankind was a little tiny sperm then clot of blood then full growing man perfect physical and psychological and mental being then he die isnt a reminder to mankind that his creator is allmighty and he allglory goes to him can ressurect mankind again after he die and become dust?certainly the allmighty creator is able to, its much easeier ,which is easier intiating or recycling?wich is easier intiating iron and steel or recycling iron and steel?people please life is too short and death is so near,the door of repentance is so wide open for every single mankind,you do not need no body nor any sacrificial to go to your creator allmighty lord .the shortest way to heaven is to know your creator lord and ask no body save him for any and every thing ,why not he is the creator .

Ya

Dave
Just stumbled on your Pascal's Wager post (it's dark out here in Dead person's land).

Very wise. Exemplary literary style. i will read more of you..

thank you for sharing your erudition.

Henry

Dave, you have mislabeled my wager. What I have wagered is miles away from "Believe it because it's a safe bet." I always laugh when someone thinks that by labeling pascal's wager, that it somehow diminishes the seriousness of sin and Hell.

Your knowledge of Islam is lacking. See Surah 2:62, it says I'm going to Heaven if Islam is true...

What I said was that the Bible makes some serious claims about the sinfulness of sin and the reality of Hell. It is in your best interest to find out if it is true; the best way to do that is to Repent and Trust and be born into the family of God. It's hard to deny someone you know.

I like your take on philosophy; the Bible says the heavens declare the glory of God and the firmament shows His handiwork. So I've written a few articles on true philosophy as well. I don't need the Bible to prove God, sin, or atonement, it just comes in REALLY handy.
http://trustobey.blogspot.com/search/label/Philosophy
Start at the bottom post.

TIM, where do I send the money?

Getting saved is really cool. Who got saved in the sequence you quoted? The answer is no one. All three continued to hang on the cross and eventually died as a result. That's not getting saved by any standard.

Al Capone, Hirohito and Luck Luciano were all hanging on the cross. Big Al turned to Hirohito and said "you're the son of God. Why don't you use your Godly power to get us down." Luciano turned to big Al and said, we're a couple of murdering crooks that have it coming while this man has killed no one personally. Hirohito turns to Luciano and says, "this day you will be with me in paradise." That's why they called him Lucky.

Sons of Gods are dime a dozen. None of them have/had the kind of power implied by their titles.

Saying Jesus was the son of *Almighty* God is a violation of the first commandment that summarizes to, "no strange Gods." Jesus was the son of ball-of-fire God that is shown to be the sun, http://www.hoax-buster,org The sun is plenty strange enough to be ruled out by the first commandment. Don't you think?

Keep the faith for that's all there is. Well, unless of course you can show that the sun is almighty. It's rather mighty but me thinks it's not almighty.

I saw the two criminal mentioned, and I write a bit about them on my salt page. http://www.davegentile.com/synoptics/Salt-no-prob-ext.doc

Of course I think the whole thing is an invention of the author of Mark. (Actually I think Mark had one major rewrite in its early history just before the other gospels were written. And I would say this is part of that rewrite, maybe 70 AD, by a non-Jewish author.)

Literalists here, may be interested in it as another "fulfilled" prophecy of course. From my page:

Connected with the salt saying, Matthew has a saying about the lamp and the lamp stand (Mt. 5:14-16). And in Matthew we are told that the disciples are the light of the world. I think it can be argued, however, that in Mark we have another apparent fulfillment of Hebrew scripture by Jesus. In Mark 4:21-23 the lamp is almost personified. Rather that being brought in, the Lamp “comes” (Mh&ti e1rxetai o( lu&xnoj i3na u(po_ to_n mo&dion teqh~|). Then in Mark 10:35-40 the sons of Zebedee ask about places at Jesus’s right and left, but are informed that they are reserved for the ones anointed. In Mark 15:27 we then have the bandits placed “one on his right and one on his left”. From this in can be argued that Mark is evoking Zachariah 4:1-14. There we are told about a lamp on a lamp stand, and two olive trees, “one to the right and one to the left” and that these are the two anointed ones in attendance on the Lord of the whole world. Mark’s point then would be that Jesus is the Lamp on the cross(the lamp stand), with the other crosses(olive trees), one to the right and one to the left of him, and the bandits then are the anointed ones in attendance on the Lord of the whole world.

Crafting a fulfilled prophecy like this would take some creativity by itself, but it is highly improbable that Mark had to work from both a saying source and Hebrew scripture and was able to produce this. Far more likely is the hypothesis that the Lamp saying originates in Mark. And this supports the idea that both “salt” and “light” are intentional re-writes in Matthew. Thus for both the salt and the light saying which are connected in Matthew, we have a good argument that the text of the saying source and/or Matthew is secondary to the text of Mark here.

"One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, "Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us! But the other rebuked him, saying, "Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong." And he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." And he said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

Imagine, a criminal dieing on a cross for his crimes, confessing his sins, fearing God and asking for mercy. That is all he has to do to be with Christ in Paradise that same day! Here is the formula: fear God for he has the power to judge, acknowledge you are a sinner, ask for mercy through Jesus Christ. It is really cool that you can do this even on the brink of death and no matter how sinful and you are saved. Of course, if you wait any later, then you've blown it. Do you know the hour that you will die?

Don't obsess about about heaven or hell, what they are, or why they are; think instead about how God in his mercy has provided a way for you to decide your own fate. You make the call. Will you accept Christ as the Son of God or will you spit in his face. You decide and my prayer is that you will make a positive decision on the most important thing for all eternity. Don't be gnashing your teeth someday cause you passed up the best of all free gifts on account of some false prophet or perhaps, human pride.

We are too concerned with hell and it sickens me to hear some preachers push the wrong message of the gospel.

Does hell exist? I don't know nore do I don't care. Does God exist? Yes. Christians need to put their energy on God and not satan.

-Justin