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Well! That will not lead to peace!

Israel is NOT A DEMOCRACY. PERIOD.

ITS IMPOSSIBLE TO BE a nation that claims to be made of a certain racial ethnicity AND be a true democracy.

ISRAEL you can not have your cake and eat it too.

You can not be a JEWISH NATION AND CLAIM TO BE A DEMOCRATIC NATION TOO.

YOU do not allow the Palestian and Arab/Israelites the right to return, yet you allow Ashkenazi's from anypart of the globe to return.

Israel IS NOT A DEMOCRACY, it is a NATIONALIST/FASCIST STATE.

well, i guess you werent able to show they they are not separatist

"perhaps you could share how these laws i israel are NOT separatist-"

Even if they were, it would not be apartheid. Something is not something else simply because there are some things about them that are similar.

"Is it Israeli Democracy or "Jewish Democracy", you be the judge"

It is Israeli democracy and it is one of the world's strongest.

"Are you aware that:

* Prior to the 1948 war, Palestinian Christians and Muslims were a two-third majority of the population of Palestine, who owned and operated 93% of Palestine's lands?'

I know people claim all of the things you mention. That does not make them true no matter how sure people are that they are. I would have to look at specifics and sources.

While looking at every past event in an angry light enhances anger and commitment, that anger and commitment do not lead people to seek peaceful solutions. That is why these folks are still at war almost sixty years later.

since you have focused on apartheid

, policy of racial segregation formerly followed in South Africa. The word apartheid means “separateness” in the Afrikaans language and it described the rigid racial division between the governing white minority population and the nonwhite majority population. The National Party introduced apartheid as part of their campaign in the 1948 elections, and with the National Party victory,
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

a·part·heid
1. (in the Republic of South Africa) a rigid policy of segregation of the nonwhite population.
2. any system or practice that separates people according to race, caste, etc.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

perhaps you could share how these laws i israel are NOT separatist-

Is it Israeli Democracy or "Jewish Democracy", you be the judge. Are you aware that:

* Prior to the 1948 war, Palestinian Christians and Muslims were a two-third majority of the population of Palestine, who owned and operated 93% of Palestine's lands?

* Prior to the 1948 war, most Israeli Jews were persecuted and dispossessed European Jews who made a one-third minority of the population?

* For Israel to become a "Jewish majority" it opted to expel and dispossess the two-third Palestinian majority?

* 80% of the Palestinian people were dispossessed from their homes, farms, and businesses and have been kept out for the past 54 years?

* 95% of Israel's lands (which is mostly owned by Palestinian refugees) is open for development to Jews only?

* Israeli-Palestinian citizens live almost in segregated communities (or ghettos) because development is strictly limited outside their villages? Ironically, the word "ghetto" was invented to describe the living conditions of Eastern European Jews in Tsarist Russia!

* For just being "Jewish" you gain an automatic citizenship in Israel? Plus tens of thousands of dollars in subsidies too.

* Palestinian Muslims or Christians refugees, who were born in the country and later expelled, cannot gain Israeli citizenship? Of course, unless they convert to Judaism first!

* Pretending to be Jewish in Israel is punishable by law with up to one year's imprisonment? On the other hand, if you pretend to be a Muslim or Christian the law does you no harm!

* When the Palestine problem was created by Britain in 1917, more than 92% of the population of Palestine were Arabs and there were at that time no more than 56,000 Jews in Palestine? That Muslim, Christian, and Jewish Palestinians at that time lived in peace with each other?

* Palestinians in the early 20th century owned 97.5% of the land, while Jews (native Palestinians and recent immigrants together) owned only 2.5% of the land?

* Close to 4 million Palestinian Muslims and Christians are being subjected to Israeli laws that are different than the laws governing the 4.5 million Israeli Jews? Is this a "democratically" elected apartheid, or not, that is the question?

* In the occupied West Bank there are "Jewish Roads" and "Non-Jewish Roads"?

* Israel issues national identify cards where the religion of the card holder is clearly shown in bold type?

* Palestinians in the occupied West Bank and Gaza drive vehicles with license plates that have different coloring than the cars driven by Israeli settlers?

* Palestinians in the occupied West Bank and Gaza hold ID cards that are of different colors than the cards held by Israeli settlers?

* The only form of Judaism recognized by the "Jewish state" is Orthodox Judaism, so most US Jews could not get married in Israel. Furthermore, the only conversion to Judaism recognized is Orthodox, so most US converts aren't Jewish enough.

* Just prior to the 1948 war, Jews owned under 7% of Palestine's land, and to increase their share after the war, they passed the "Absentees' Law" which dispossessed the Palestinian majority land owners who later became "absent". What is even more tragic was the passage of an oxymoron law, called "Present Absentees' Law," which dispossessed the Palestinian-Israeli citizens who became internal refugees in Israel. It is worth noting that the internal Jewish refugees were not dispossessed as a result of this racist law.

"i think im referring to the apartheid laws dave

any thoughts?"

Apartheid is an Afrikaaner concept. It divided people into blacks, whites, and colored. Each group was treated differently. It did not matter how much difference there was between those of Afrikaaner descent and those of British descent. The huge differences between the various African tribes made no difference.

Jimmy Carter says he applies the word Apartheid only to the West Bank and Gaza. Conditions are much worse in Gaza than in the West Bank.

These are territories occupied as a result of war. That was not the case in South Africa.

There is insurrection in the occupied territories and that must be dealt with. Doing so is part of Israel's responsibility as the occupying power.

So it is a mess that is not meant to be a final solution as apartheid was. Israel expects to eventually deal with a spearate state. They have found that it is hard to create one.

We have found in Iraq that you can not impose democracy on people who are not ready for it.

"who is helping kill our troops in iraq?"

Are you suggesting our troops are surrogates for Israel?

Even so, we defend them because they are our troops.

So you think my view of Islam is the same as Likud's?

You can find Muslims who criticize Islam.

There were people in the West Bank and Gaza before Israel was created. Some people fled there from what is now Israel where they were ruled by Egypt and Jordan. When those countries abandoned those territories, Israel was forced to assume responsiblity for them.

"when israel was formed- the world was supposed to feel repsonsible for what happened to the displaced jewish people-"

No. The world felt no responsiblity. When they tried to go back, they were killed or thrown out. The world simply watched. When they had tried to flee, there was no place for them to go to.

When the British left in 1948, the same thing happened in Palestine and India and not because of what Hindus and Jews are like.

Do you believe I don't follow world news? Do such comments help anything?

i think im referring to the apartheid laws dave

any thoughts?

that is the wackiest rationale ive ever heard dave-

who is helping kill our troops in iraq?

do you even read the newspapers?

dave- im really really not the onlyperson asking these questions-

no- im not referring to folks abandoned by egypt or jordan-
israel displaced them-

when israel was formed- the world was supposed to feel repsonsible for what happened to the displaced jewish people-

heres a quote from an israeli that says it better than i could-

"Jewish people were abused for thousands of years, but my nation has switched from being victims to being abusers.

"That's hard for me to acknowledge. The Jewish people are occupiers now, and we are racist."

amazingly as an american you seem to be more inline with the likud partyline than the people of israel itself.

"Israel is not a democracy in the sense that america is-
non-jews are singled out for separate and inferior treatment in countless instances-"

Not really. However does that mean that FDR and JFK were not elected as leaders of a democracy but of a fascist regime?

"4 million palestinians subject to a different apartheid set of jewish laws than the 4.5 million jews who have their own 'laws'"

I think you are referring to the folks abandoned by Egypt and Jordan who are trying to figure out how a democracy works with no help from their friends in Syria and Iran.

"and now the drums of war are beating to send american boys and girls to die in iran to protect israel?"

If we attack people helping kill our troops in Iraq, it will not be out of sympathy for Israel or as part of the vast Jewish conspiracy some are sure exists somewhere somehow.

Israel is not a democracy in the sense that america is-
non-jews are singled out for separate and inferior treatment in countless instances-

even jews are segregated from the power structure by the demarcation of orthodox and others- (excluding us jews marrying in israel or convents unless to orthodox)

jewish and non-jewish roads- different colored licenses and ID cards that differentiate by religion- immigration standards that only allow jews- the right of return denied to those born there in favor of those not born there but of the jewish faith-

4 million palestinians subject to a different apartheid set of jewish laws than the 4.5 million jews who have their own 'laws'

if a person - in order to partake of the "equal" laws in israel- pretends to be jewish- imprisonment for a year-

the US role isnt peacemaker- its sugar daddy- without whose enormous financial aid israels economy would collapse tomorrow-

and now the drums of war are beating to send american boys and girls to die in iran to protect israel?

were are our allies israels presence in the current theatre of engagement?
these are only a few laws that defy any possible defining of israel as a 'democracy'.

Discussions and words don't mean a thing. The system is they can say what they want to or need to to fool the people as long as they vote as it is indicated they should. That seems to be the system in all the "democracies". Democracies are pushed because the system has been developed to where 'they' can have 'the best government money can buy'.

That is our problem in our Congress today. Cheney 'I-a-told-ya' how it didn't matter what was being said before the election.

That's just the facts.