All Comments (149)

Whatever? That's why I read this in the news:
"When clerics, ministers and businessmen gathered at a forum in Riyadh in April to discuss women in the workplace, there were no women in sight. "

How low as the WP sunk in its efforts to shill for Islam?

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You go Deb Chaterlee......the truth hurt doesn't Akbar?

IN fact, you would be better off in Pakistan teaching your views of Islam in mosques over there than lying to Americans here.

Betty, you are extremley slow. You got alot of catching up to do. You remind me of me 10 years ago asking muslims silly questions.

Better get started reading. A good start would be "God Has Ninety-Nine Names" by Judith Miller.

It seems fashionable in the West to point the finger at abuse of women in Islamic countries and in particular with respect to the religion itself. However the abuse of women is part of the desire to dominate and suppress women by men in all cultures from ancient times until today. It is no different in the Western democracies today, in which women appear to have reached a status equal to men by their own effort and demonstration of their worth. However the means of domination and suppression in today's Western societies are not obvious. The domination of women today is done underhandedly and the damage, which may be seen in a variety of forms is put down to disease, such as heart disease, strokes, diabetes and cancer etc. All of these are caused by disease-causing stress and that stress results for toxic relationships and the desire of one party to manipulate and control the other. Women are by far taking the greater amount of damage but damage is also taken by men from toxic wives. What we are really seeing in Islamic countries is an open domination of women by men. What we are seeing in Western Christian countries is the domination of good people by toxic people and only that there is still a great disparity between the sexes, with more men doing more domination of women than the other way around. However that disparity is decreasing as there are more and more women that are willing to dominate their husbands by the same disgusting underhanded means. In both cases it is not the other spouse alone that a toxic relationship hurts but more significantly the children. Some will grow up to be victimized and dominated themselves because their physiological responses are affected and hence the way their body functions under stress. And those that grow up to become domineering are again affected for similar physiological reasons. While we are focused solely on the domination and oppression of women in Islamic countries we fail to see, let alone address the humongous problem that is besetting our own societies. And the problem is not only huge for the social degradation that is fast becoming the norm but for a medical profession that is refusing to deal with the real issues because under current medical opinion billions upon billions of dollars are the rich bounty! I remember a time forty years ago when heart disease was unknown in women. Today it is the number one killer of women. The lame reason of it was just undiagnosed doesn't cut. Reason says that in being undiagnosed doesn't make a disease not fatal nor even not evident! Let's stop pointing out the stick in the other's eye and start addressing the pole in our own. Check out some of my blogs. I have started weblogs on thoughts.com and wordpress.com and see what oppression of women in our own Christian countries entails. If you would like i can email you the files.

Women in Islam

Muslim preachers and advocates in the West, preach and lecture that “Islam elevated the status of women”. That message is not dealt with in the mosques and airwaves of Muslim countries because they know the audience there know better. The above italicized macabre claim would not be made to the people of the West either if it were not for the prevalent perception among the Muslims of the Middle East that the Westerners in general and the people of the United States in particular are “simple minded” and gullible. Their denigrating assessment of the “other” is the processing of a fettered tribal mindset prone to oversimplification and obsessed with delusions of supremacy.

The term “elevate” in the above claim implies improvement in the quality of Muslim women’s life since pre-Islamic times --pre 630 AD, which they refer to as the “Age of Ignorance”. The Prophet of Islam, Mohammed (570-632AD), married his first wife, Khadija (555-620A D), in Mecca , Hejaz, during the pre-Islamic period. She lived all of her 65 years in the “Age of Ignorance”. Let us compare her “status” with that of present day women of her hometown, Mecca, to gauge the extent Islam had “elevated” the social standing of women over the past fourteen hundred years.

Khadija bint Khuwailed was a wealthy literate woman who owned a huge commercial enterprise as well as a fleet of more than 500 camels to transport her wares. She hired Mohammad to travel with her caravans to Yemen and Syria as manager of her trading business. She divorced two husbands and never was in a polygamous relationship. She proposed marriage to Mohammad when she was 40 and he was 25. He never took another wife while married to her and their marriage lasted 25 years, ending with her death. She never veiled her face and traveled freely.

How many women in Mecca today can read and write and own their own businesses? How many women in Mecca today have a say about their prospective husbands let alone propose to them or divorce them? How many women in Mecca today are living in a monogamous marriages or married to a younger man? How many Meccan women show their faces or travel alone? How then did Islam elevate women? Is it by institutionalizing polygamy and the culture of concubines? Mohammad’s mother and grandmothers, all of whom lived in the pre-Islamic era, did not share their husbands with other wives, yet he had 10 known wives and unknown number of concubines at the time of his death. Is this the way Islam and its founder elevated women? Or by ruling that women inherit half their brother’s share and their testimony, when accepted, counts as equivalent to only half that of a man? Or maybe by making it “Halal” or lawful for men to lie to their wives and beat them? Is it by giving the man the right to divorce simply by uttering the sentence “I divorce you” three times, or by institutionalizing the practice of female sex organ mutilation they call “Khatan ”? How is that elevating to women? How does any of those above mentioned practices that were institutionalized and spread by Islam to include over a billion people today could have improved upon the status and welfare of a pre-Islamic woman such as Khadija?

The Arabian Peninsula had many powerful and influential women during the “Age of Ignorance”. The famous Queen Balqees or Queen of Sheba ruled a thriving and prosperous Sheba (Yemen), just south of Hejaz, three thousand years ago . Sujaj, Um Furka, Um Zumol were chieftains of their Hejaz tribes. Afra and Zafra were High Priestesses, a position comparable to a Prime Minister. Al Khansaa was a popular prime poetess in Mecca during Mohammad’s time. How many notable or influential Muslim women from Hejaz or the whole Arabian Peninsula have you heard of? The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, which includes Hejaz as a province, had only very recently allowed girls into schools. Women there are not allowed to vote, drive a car or even walk outside their enclosed courtyards unless covered completely from top to bottom with black shrouds called Niqab and escorted by either the father, a brother or husband.

The people in the West read the books from which the Muslims derive their Sharia or Religious Law, and have observed the Muslims’ practices as well as know their history. The West did not get to their present level of eminence in all of human endeavors by being ignorant, illiterate, passive or closed- minded. The whole world knows now the status of women under the Sharia. The Muslim missionaries in the West need to be very well aware that their audience are steeped in a culture that respects honesty and practices critical thinking. Such easily verifiable misleading claims will only further diminish the credibility of Muslims and tarnish their religion.

hi
I would like to inform all people that muslims teachers lnog time ago they changed some verses in the quraan by chnging some words and by by translating it. Specialy concerning womens and meka.

The also explained quraan acording to what they think and to make " sunna" explaining the quraan.

Plz you can read more about that just go to quraan site:
www.free-minds.org

regards

hi
I would like to inform all people that muslims teachers lnog time ago they changed some verses in the quraan by chnging some words and by by translating it. Specialy concerning womens and meka.

The also explained quraan acording to what they think and to make " sunna" explaining the quraan.

Plz you can read more about that just go to quraan site:
www.free-minds.org

regards

hi
I would like to inform all people that muslims teachers lnog time ago they changed some verses in the quraan by chnging some words and by by trabslating it. Specialy concerning womens and meka.

The also explained quraan acording to what they think and to make " sunna" explaining the quraan.

Plz you can read more about that just go to quraan site:
www.free-minds.org

regards

Hi
Muslims should know that they are practicing shari2 law which written in " sunna" which means books written by iamams in the name of Mohamad>

Shari2a law and all sunna is complitly contradicting the Quraan.

Usa and western world should not encourage poeple to inforce such law. Also they should not allaow schools nor universties to teach such books because its aganist God and its only preduce criminals and makes muslims womens slaves.

Regards
Jurist specialist in criminal investigation & in terrorists ideology

Please read Koranic immorality!!!

Allah allows pure Muslims to have sex with slave girls

By Syed Kamran Mirza
8/10/2005

Holy Quran emphatically permitted all pukka (pure) Muslims to have sex with their slave girls and concubines. Below are some of the Quranic verses on this issue of slave girls.

(QURAN - 70:22-30): "Not so the worshippers, who are steadfast in prayer, who set aside a due portion of their wealth for the beggar and for the deprived, who truly believe in the Day of Reckoning and dread the punishment of their Lord (for none is secure from the punishment of their Lord); who restrain their carnal desire, save with their wives and their slave girls, for these are lawful to them: he that lusts after other than these is a transgressor..."
This verse very clearly stated that Quran allows Muslim men to have sex with their wives (of course) and their slave girls too.

(QURAN - 23:5,6): "...who restrain their carnal desires (except with their wives and slave girls, for these are lawful to them..."
Again, Quran allows Muslim men to have sexual relations with their wives and slave girls.

(QURAN - 4:24): "And all married women are forbidden unto you save those captives whom your right hand possess. It is a decree of Allah for you. (Muhammad Pickthall's English translation of the Quran).

In this above verse Allah clearly says Muslims to have sex with captives (Booty from POWs) that they get from war booty.

(QURAN - 33:50):

"Prophet, We have made lawful to you the wives whom you have granted dowries and the slave girls whom God has given you as booty;..."

This above verse is for Prophet Muhammad. Supposedly, Allah (SBT.) allows Prophet Muhammad to have sex with his slave girls he got from war booty.

The above verses are only a few I have mentioned out of numerous such verses scattered throughout the Quran. What could be more unethical matter than having sex with slave girls? Allah (SBT) graciously allowed Muslims to have sex with slave girls and captives from the war (POWs). Prophet Muhammad himself and his disciples routinely used to have sex with their slave girls. Besides having numerous wives, Prophet Muhammad had many concubines and slaves girls with whom he had sex. This fact can be supported by hadiths and al-sira.

To this above Quranic verses, some Islamic apologists will try to tell us that, actually Allah asked Muslims to marry those slave/concubines before they can have sex with them. Now let me explain some catch before some Islamic apologists try to sugar-coat these immoral Quranic verses:

Quran-4:24—“ Also forbidden are married women unless they are captives (of war), such is the decree of God. Lawful for you are women besides them if you seek them with your wealth for wedlock and not for debauchery.”

Quran-33:50—"Prophet, We have made lawful to you the wives whom you have granted dowries and the slave girls whom God has given you as booty;..."

The above two Quranic verses are from Maulana Yousuf Ali’s translated Quran. Now let me examine the very meanings of verse (4:24)- “ Also forbidden are married women unless they are captives (of war), such is the decree of God. Lawful for you are women besides them if you seek them with your wealth for wedlock and not for debauchery.”

Readers please carefully read the above verse. The verse is unambiguously saying the following: you can not have sex with other people’s married women but if she is captives of war then it’s Okay to have sex with her because Allah permitted that; other women (besides captives and other people’s wives) are also lawful for having sex after you marry them with your money. Does not this verse very clearly establish the fact that Muslim men can have sex with women received from the war booty (Ganimater maal)?

If you marry your slave girl, will she still remain as the slave for ever? After you marry your slave girl do you still call her a slave? Will you call her my slave wife and the other my dowry wife? Do you still separate them as slave and free women? Why then Allah should tell about your wife in two different categories? Fact of the matter is, Allah permitted Muslims to have sex with slave girls and concubines (received from war booty).

Many Middle Eastern Muslims countries still follows Quranic privilege of having sex with their slave girls. In Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and other Islamic paradise Arab Muslim masters are routinely having sex with their maids even today. Frequently we get to read many horrific cases of sex-scandals about maids in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere. Very recently we read the news of numerous (hundreds of) sex-scandals with Indonesian maids in Saudi Arabia and this uncivilized custom still prevailing in the most Muslims countries even today?

Once again, Islam is damned with faint praise by its own proponents.

Lovenhonor,
If you want to know the real islam visit:
www.faithfreedom.org

To discuss islam join:
www.faithfreedom.org/forum

loveNhonor wrote:

” Why does Islam treat non Muslim people as dhimmi’s and kafirs” . That’s like saying all whites think like the KKK.

Again you are trying to avoid my question, I'm not referring to radical islamic groups. I was referring to islamic countries that implement the quran based sharia law, why do these laws ask muslims (or muslim ruled coutries) to treat non muslims as second class ?

loveNhonor wrote:
Islam thought me to be patient. Islam thought me to respect people, to respect their faith, their beliefs, they culture etcetera, etcetera. I am a Muslim. My friends are white, dark skin, colored, fair, straight, bi, gay, lesbians;

Are you sure Islam teaches you to respect non muslims ? then why are they treted as dhimmis in islamic countries ?

Are you sure Islam teaches you to respect Gays and Lesbians ? Does islam (sharia) allow such behaviour ? If the punishment for adulterous heterosexual adultery is lashes or d e a t h via s t o n i n g, how can one expect any less for gay unions ?

Are you sure Islam ask you to respect Apostates of Islam ? In most countries where sharia is applied the punishment for apostasy is DEATH.

If you truly respect people of different faith, culture, colour etc etc then you possess virtues far greater than Mohammed or Islam. You do not need to submit to this evil CULT of death.

I have not asked you any 'trick' questions, my questions were straight forward. They seem tricky to muslims because they cannot find answers, they are in denial of the evil perpetrated by this faith. Perhaps you need to re-read the quran and the hadiths with an open mind to become aware of the evil contained in them.

Simple question: Can you list 3 instances of truly great deeds done by Mohammed ? If he is so great this should not be a problem.

Assalam Muaalaikum to all

Come in again to just say I wrote the above comments. I guess in my attempt to address a post seemingly "intended to provoke emotions or perhaps attack" on my faith I forgot to sign off loveNonor in my above post.

I did not think I had much to say but I guess I do!

PEACE

Dear Ross

Peace be upon you

Unlike many out there who think just because they have some knowledge about a particular subject or perhaps they feel because they read extensively or they may even think just because they have had done some sort of research on the subject matter this gives them the right to take it upon them self as being in the “know”. Some may even see them self as having the authority to decide such and such.

I am a simple individual. I will not pretend to claim to have a superior knowledge of Islam. I will not attempt to offer a lengthy scholarly explanation to your “trick question”. To engage in a dialogue with someone like your good self Mr. Ross, someone already determined to deem a Muslim individual’s opinion to be wrong regardless, is like a futile effort to mix oil and water! You clearly already believe yourself to be right with your preconceived opinion on the teachings of Islam.

Like in many other religions there are specific references, use as a term to refer to such and such. As a Muslim I will try to address your “trick question” as moderately as I can put it seeing that I am not some learned religious scholar like some seems to see in them self. The word “kafir” in its original context as I know simply means “to deny”. The term refers to any person who rejects the religion of Islam, its beliefs, principles and practices. That’s simply what the word “kafir” means.

As for your swiping statement” Why does Islam treat non Muslim people as dhimmi’s and kafirs” . That’s like saying all whites think like the KKK. Or there are no bad Christians, all Christians are good people simple by being Christians! Is that not exactly how many western people view, that all Muslim are terrorist? Needless to say, of course not all western people or non Muslims think and believe that to be the case!

And another thing Ross, I am a Muslim woman and NO, I am not oppressed. NO I am not marginalized. Sure, I did not turn out to be a professor or a rocket scientist but yes, like many other Muslim women the world over I do attend school contrary to what the Western world like to think. I don’t not pick and choose who I am friends with. I am fortunate to have friends from different background, profession, walks of life ya da.. ya da.. ya da.

Islam thought me to be patient. Islam thought me to respect people, to respect their faith, their beliefs, they culture etcetera, etcetera. I am a Muslim. My friends are white, dark skin, colored, fair, straight, bi, gay, lesbians; I think you get my point. Islam is a religion of peace and acceptance contrary to the fabricated, miss represented, manipulated, miss interpreted picture given to the world over by self fish individuals with personal agendas be it for political or financial or for what ever gain. Such individuals come in all shape, form, color and religion my dear Ross! Don’t target, vent your anger and scrutinized Islam!

Assallam Muaalaikum

loveNhonor,

Please do not deviate from the topic, here it is again:
Why does islam treat non muslim people as dhimmi's and kafirs ?

Dearest Ross,

Peace be upon you,

I am a Muslim. I was born one and I pray to my God, Allah the All Mighty that when my time has come I will leave this life as a Muslim! I do not know where your intense dislike (I do not like to use the word hate) for Islam stems from. You said; if I hate apartheid it’s only logical that I hate Islam. I totally do not see the comparison of the two, Islam & Apartheid, and then again you are a man on a mission.

What I find sad is when the Western world seems to view Islam from a myopic view point. They see the likes of Osama Bin Laden or Sadam Hussein, mindless Jihad, oppression and what not have you all of which are created by people and might I add regardless of religion or race, selfish individuals with selfish agendas. Can’t speak for others but I find some times I hear when I should learn to listen instead. Other times I too cannot escape from wanting to scrutinize yet just because I look that does not guarantee that I am able to see. Sometimes I think I touch enough to know but truth of the matter is sometimes I touch rather than feel.

The internet needless to say provides a wealth and pool of information. Want to quote any verse from the holy Quran or the Bible, go ahead read up, quote and re quote till your heart content. People say knowledge is power. I say, just because one is knowledgeable doesn’t automatically makes one right.

Ross… you come across as a very intelligent individual. I hope somewhere in this crusade you choose you will find some solace or some form of enlightenment what ever it is that you are looking for in what you perceive as the truth or what’s right and what’s not in your own ideology. My apology if I am wrong but you come across as ONE VERY ANGRY SOUL

Assallam Muaalaikum

loveNhonor,
Peace be to you too,

I do not hate muslims, I hate this evil idealogy called islam. Islam would treat me as a (jizya paying and humiliated) dhmmi if I was a christian/jew OR as a kafir if I was belonged other religion. Islam is a discriminatory system like aparthied, the only difference being it is directed towards one's religious beliefs instead of skin color. So if i hate aparthied it is only logical that I hate islam.

---------------------------------------------------

Khurram,

Why can't an OMNIPOTENT and OMNIPRESENT God manifest himself as a million or so deities of hinduism ?
Why does Islam limit God to "1" ? Even satan can be "1" .

For more about islam visit:
www.faithfreedom.org
www.faithfreedom.org/forum

Hi LOVENHONOR,
I agree with your comments. But don't worry about Ross. I can see where that hatred is coming from. If you trace back to the time when Islam was revealed to the idol worshipers of Makkah, you can easily see the source of that hatred. It was hard for those idol worshipers to abandon something that their grandfathers had been doing and instead start worshiping one God. So, they were bitterly against Islam and they did whatever they could do to thwart the power of Islam. But in the end, they had to lose because TRUTH PREVAILS.

So, he should not be blamed for all his comments because he inherited that hatred from his ancestors. The Christians, the Jews and the Muslims are at least the people of the book. The Hindus are not even people of the book. Instead, they are the same idol worshipers as those of the 1500 years old Makkah.

So, I pray that these idol worshipers of today may find the same RIGHT PATH OF GUIDANCE that their ancestors found 1500 years ago.

May peace be upon all of you!

Ross,

Peace be upon you!

In all honesty my God! I've never seen so much hate in any one untill I come upon this page and read you comments!

After reading most of your comments it appears as if you are on a mission as in hell bent to challenge anything and everything about Islam come what may, regardless!

I have travelled extensively in the Middle East including in Abu Dhabi, Dubai, Sudan, Egypt, etc. I saw there first hand the treatment of women by Muslim men. In Abu Dhabi, it is a common sight to see blonde bimbos being driven around in chauffered limos. I am sure the shieks there do not have any platonic relations with them. If Islam is so holy and these guys have gone on haj to Mecca and have become so holy, what are the bimbos doing in their private limos? And I saw some of these sheiks being followed by their many wives all covered head to toe in black in heat approaching over 110F. Talk about the treatment of women; talk about torture.

the actions below recently convicted serbia in the world court at the hague-

didnt hear about it? what is the rape and massacre of 250,000 muslim women and children by a christian state compared to one sensationalized story of rape?

look at the more recent genocide of Muslims in Bosnia, Lebanon and the on going genocide of course in Palestine:

Eight thousand Bosnian Muslim boys and men were handcuffed, blindfolded and led to by Serbs Orthodox Christians and with full knowledge of the UN Dutch military unit (Protestant and Catholic Christians) to a forest in Bosnia just outside Sbernicha: they were murdered in cold blood, en masse genocide-summary executions; thou those innocent victims were European Slavs and citizens of ex-Yugoslavia, their only crime was that they were Muslim. This did not happen 2000 years ago, it happened in 1991.The total number of Muslims murdered by the Christian Serbs in that war exceeded 250,000 including mass rape of children and women in the heart of and while “Civilized Christian Europe” looked on. The number would have been much higher were not for the intervention of USA to protect whatever remained of Muslim population.

So who is violent and intolerant?

Compare the genocide of 250,000 European Bosnian Muslims –including the mass murder of the 8,000 Muslim boys and men-for no reason other than being Muslim to the death penalty administered against
the above individual and lonely case-

How about 1200 Lebanese civilians bombed to death by Israel last July as well as the destruction of Lebanon’s civilian infrastructure?

How about the holocaust and Apartheid imposed on the tormented Palestinians by Israel for past 60 years in refugee camps outside Palestine and in a big Concentration Camp called Gaza and West bank? Just during the last couple of years Israel slaughtered over 700 seven hundred Palestinians most of them children and women.

So who is just and tloerant and who is violent?

Islam and treatment of women:

The 19-year-old Saudi woman was abducted by a gang of men wielding kitchen knives who took her to a farm where she was raped 14 times by her captors. Five men were arrested for the rape and given jail terms ranging from 10 months to five years by a panel of judges in the eastern Saudi city of Qatif, near the teenager's hometown.

But the judges also decided to sentence the young woman, identified only as "G," to 90 lashes. "G" was told by one of the judges that she was lucky not to have been given jail time. She said yesterday that she would appeal against her sentence.

The woman told the Saudi Gazette that she tried to commit suicide because of her ordeal and was beaten by her younger brother because the rape had brought shame on their family.

Dear Victoria,
Of course the reason is in the Quran - in verse 9:28. The fact that I didn't list it but made you look it up does not mean it is not in the Quran or that I don't know. I knew it from a very young age in fact.

For the benefit of other readers I will include the relevant verse:

‏ياايها الذين امنوا انما المشركون نجس فلا يقربوا المسجد الحرام بعد عامهم هذا وان خفتم عيلة فسوف يغنيكم الله من فضله ان شاء ان الله عليم حكيم

Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoo innama almushrikoona najasun fala yaqraboo almasjida alharama baAAda AAamihim hatha wa-in khiftum AAaylatan fasawfa yughneekumu Allahu min fadlihi in shaa inna Allaha AAaleemun hakeemun

You, you those who believed - truly the polytheists (i.e. takers of partners with Allah)unclean/filth so they do not approach the Sacred Mosque after this their year, and if you feared poverty so Allah will enrich you from His grace if He willed, that God knowledgeable, wise.

Muslims take this injunction against the polytheists to include all non-Muslims and will behead any non-Muslims who enter within 12 miles of the Ka'aba.

How tolerant of your prophet Muhammad to consider polytheists to be 'filth'. How tolerant of you to believe him.

Truly Allah is compassionate, merciful. Truly Muslims are the most tolerant people in the world. Truly I am being sarcastic.

Salaam,
Ahmed

i get it ahmed- you dont know the most basic of islamic stories-

you just dont know ahmed- go find a muslim to tell you-

its not from the quran-

ok i get you now- its enough
peace

Victoria,
If you promise to not get personal with me I won't get personal with you. Fair enough?

I don't know how to say this politely so I will just say it: I have already told you the reason why Muslims are intolerant of non-Muslims around the Ka'aba.

See verse 9:28. I have already mentioned this. Please look it up. I can't be held responsible if you fail to read or comprehend.

So whatever the reason, why do Muslims behead any non-Muslims who venture within 12 miles of the Ka'aba? Isn't that 'intolerance'? Yes or No.

Salaam,
Ahmed

ahmed- well vicki isnt my name so please dont call me that- i wouldnt call you ahmmy- anyway- i am surprised that you really dont seem to know the story of why non-muslims dont have access to the ka'aba- its someting you should have learned at your mothers knee-

i dont use the internet for any source of learning whatsoever- its just too questionable-

i go to trusted scholars of which there are an abundance of in new york-

i guess ALLAH sends to us those whom he will-

when i have a question (any question no matter how simple) i go to 5 separate people 5 not 4-

because there are so many "cultural and traditional" practicioners of islam- who seem to mix their parents biases into their practice- i wait until i get a consensus of 5 separate individuals-

when their answers are in accordance and make sense islamically (often from different corners of the world) then i consider it a valid representation of islam.

it would be impossible for there to be some psychich conspricay to mislead me in particular- im just not that important-

as for lying- possibly this happens (ive had many muslims tell silly lies they thought were truth with straight faces- like beating your wife for instance-) not because they were deceitful- but because they simply didnt know and were blindly fllowing the leads of misogynistic imams and cultures form whence they sprang-

while you expend considerable energy on attacking islam- you have never expressed the philosophy youve replaced it with that must be so superior (to you)

maybe you could share that with me id be interested-
not to try to criticize it or deconstruct- but just curious what you think
ok peace

pyjfim fzcuathml xvauy eowjbvrq fhpwgai cwilvyofs oidt http://www.uhbtfmr.parick.com

qnazwv gsvfqaie hplawdefx nkpqo nqsykrf fovn cebrlx

Dear Victoria,
Or may I call you Vickie since we're getting really personal now?

Arabic scholars are a dime a dozen. Al-Azhar produces hundreds every year - and that's only one 'university' (to use the word very loosely).

Some of them will lie to you without shame, thinking you don't know Arabic. Even to those who know Arabic, they will also lie.

As for your accusation - you haven't even shown an error I made in the Arabic so I'll just take it you're merely ranting. I suggest you return to proper discussion after you blow off some steam.

Salaam,
Ahmed

again - no answer-

why would i go to the internet to look for misinformation when i have access to arabic scholars in the flesh?

so you DONT know thw story about why non-muslims are restricted around the ka'aba-

go find soem verification that any have bee killed around ka'aba in the last half century-

now- you dont know the story that all muslims know-
you dont really seem to know arabic-

you just transposed a noun and used it as a verb on another site (typical american grammar mistake)

ok ahmed (or john)

Victori,
Huh? What are you talking about me not knowing Arabic? You're not making sense. I actually don't know what you want me to say.

If you bothered to read the idribohunna arguments on the internet by other ARABIC speakers (except for the lying apologists) you'd see they say exactly the same as me regardless of the internet site they use. There are Muslim forums out there who also use the same evidence I use. Why do you expect me to write something different when it's a clear-cut issue?

I think you have run out of arguments and am hoping to tie me to an anti-Islamic site so you can apply an ad hominem against me. I fully admit I don't like Islam but does that mean I don't know Islam? No. I will pit my knowledge of Islam against yours any day.

As for the reason why Muslims kill non-Muslims in the Ka'aba district - what does it matter? It's intolerance, isn't it? Your prophet told you to prohibit disbelievers around the sacred mosque (9:28). I have read that in the Quran too and in Arabic. Is that the reason you wanted me to say? Are you satisfied now? Will you for once argue the issue instead of attacking Ahmed? Why make me the issue instead of the real issue at hand?

So isn't it a bit hypocritical of you to accuse kafirs of intolerance when they are only making peaceful criticism of Islam while you Muslims kill, yes kill, all non-Muslims who venture near the Ka'aba just because your murderous bigotted prophet prohibited non-Muslims to come near the ka'aba?

Salaam,
Ahmed

ahmed- if you knew it you would say it-

you wont find it in the quran or tasfeer- you have to actually be a muslim and be familiar with it from sources other than christian run islamophobic websites- every bit of information you give is from these hateful websites and yet you continue to pretend that you are raised as a muslim-

on pamela taylors question on sex- you revealed that you have no personal knowledge of arabic- and can only pointlessly copy and paste the same tired old faithfreedom copy-

so if you know the answer- then answer-

you wont find it on your sites- so if you dont have an answer ill know for sure you are not what you present yourself to be-

Victoria,
Of course I know the reason why Muslims will kill any non-Muslims who venture within the Ka'aba district. However, I want to hear your defense of this 'intolerance'.

I find it strange that Muslims complain of other people's intolerance towards them while they themselves are by far the most intolerant.

Is there tolerance of kafirs within the Ka'aba district? I don't think so.

The 'intolerance' you claim anti-Islamics show on this forum is merely critics voicing their opinions in a peaceful manner.

Compare that to:
The 'intolerance' of Muslims towards non-Muslims in the Ka'aba district at the point of a sword.

See the difference?

Salaam,
Ahmed

Ahmed are you really telling me that with your knowledge of islam you dont know the stroy and reasoning behind why only muslims are allowed around the ka'aba?

i cannot believe that-

i imagine there must be some kafir but i also imagine in the intolerant and rigid climate there they are probably not very open about it-

Victoria,
If you want to talk about intolerance then please tell us how Muslims tolerate kafirs in the Ka'aba district of Mecca. What tolerance does Muslims show to the kafirs there? Are there kafirs there to tolerate?

Salaam,
Ahmed Hussain

PS Mark: are you still around to defend your statement about 9:5? I'm very interested in the finding out whether 9:5 was revealed before or after the conquest of Mecca.

Thank you.

theres really nothing to crow about that people leave because they get repelled by the bad manners

what possible political agenda could mark have? he doesnt believe in the quran-

he was simply making a statement for hatemongerers to be careful in their presentation because they may exhibit the intolerant characteristics they are claiming to hate-

wow you guys dont get anything-

Ahmed,

Looks like Mark was a muslim trying his taqqiyah here. Well done once again !

Looks like Mark has left the building after making a big statement about 9:5.

I wonder when 9:5 was revealed and when Muhammad conquered Mecca. One suspects the answer is not in Mark's favor.

Salaam,
Ahmed Hussain

Mark - are you still around to discuss 9:5? I'd like very much to know when 9:5 was revealed vs when Muhammad conquered Mecca.

You seem to be very sure of the facts with your earlier post so it should be no problem discussing this topic.

Thank you.

Salaam,
Ahmed

Mark wrote:
Those of you quoting the Koran need to be careful not to lower yourselves to the level of the extremists.
That is, taking the quote out of context to achieve your political goal.
Don’t get me wrong; I believe the Koran is not of God. However, if you want to quote something, use it in context if you want any creditability at all.
For Instance, one of the most misused quotes is: 9.5 kill the unbelievers wherever you find them.
That is only 1/2 of the verse. It's meaning is a battle plan to retake Mecca from the idol worshipers and goes on to say not to become the aggressor and do not pursue the unbelievers outside of your land.
As you can see, it is wildly used out of context.
Any intelligent person who sees this will discount anything else you have to say, as they will see you as on a par with the extremists.
Be careful.

Ahmed's response:
1. Mecca cannot be 'retaken' from the pagans since it belonged to them. The Muslims conquered it.

2. When was 9:5 revealed by Muhammad and when was the conquest of Mecca?

Be care with your answer and good luck.

Salaam,
Ahmed

Those of you quoting the Koran need to be careful not to lower yourselves to the level of the extremists.
That is, taking the quote out of context to achieve your political goal.
Don’t get me wrong; I believe the Koran is not of God. However, if you want to quote something, use it in context if you want any creditability at all.
For Instance, one of the most misused quotes is: 9.5 kill the unbelievers wherever you find them.
That is only 1/2 of the verse. It's meaning is a battle plan to retake Mecca from the idol worshipers and goes on to say not to become the aggressor and do not pursue the unbelievers outside of your land.
As you can see, it is wildly used out of context.
Any intelligent person who sees this will discount anything else you have to say, as they will see you as on a par with the extremists.
Be careful.

no one is terrorizing you ccnl- you are truly exhibiting paranoid tendencies

in case you havent noticed this is a discussion board about faith-

specifically written by a muslim panelists-
about women-
since im a muslim woman i feel this should be a forum for my expression-

there have been no threats give here- these are words and opinions-
if you feel threatened by intelligent discussion of islam- that is on you-

im sorry youre afraid and feel the need for militart action but its really inappropriate here

liberated no one is attacking you

Victoria,

We dislike those who promise us harm. Stop the terror being done in Allah's name and the commentary will stop. Until then we will protect ourselves be it in word or military action.

as has happened in every question posted at on faith- every muslim panelist is flooded with muslim haters-

every panelist responses gegenerate into the same mutual hate society with the same accusations and excuses to spread fear and anger-

that would be like me going to an atheist post and denigrating the beliefs of the people there-

its just bad manners-

how the proponents of free america love to censor and restrict the premise of free relgious expression-

well since it is so completely predictable-
ill leave this particular version of democracy to its own

Knuclehead- we had this conversation ad nauseum on the mattson site- i said it was treason - you said genocide then i posted long and articulate answer for you which you had no reply to- now you think im going to do it all over again here? just go re-read the voluminous posts on mattson- (or maybe armstrong) one or the other- really it is sneaky to pretend that ive no answerwhen i just posted pages and pages- what does that even mean?

how is it possibly shy to post pages andpages?

and i havent a care what people think of me- we are all anonymous typers who can disappear or reapppear at any moment-
again since you pretend i didnt tell you 3 times in another site- passing secrets to enemies- fighting against muslims
TREASON
they kill peolle in america for it-
in islam you have the option of exile also-

what is your alternative punishment to treason?
now stop being so sneaky

"The third type of apostate is one who leaves Islam and then engages in hostile actions against Islam and Muslims, e.g. knowingly engages in propaganda against Islam and Muslims blatantly ignoring facts that he is expected to know well, passes secrets to the enemy, takes part in fighting against the Muslims. Such an apostate can be punished by anything from exile to death"

Okay Victoria, where it states "knowingly engages in propaganda against Islam", you mean that he or she simply says for example "I am no longer a Muslim and Islam is wrong and has no meaning"...right?

In other words, FREE SPEACH.

And so "...can be punished by anything from exile to death" - this means you can exile or murder this person, simply for saying that they think Islam is wrong, right?

In other words, "PUNISH" AND/OR EXTERMINATE.

Do you realise how sick and twisted that is? You act like you own the world and all in it!

By what right do you suggest you can "punish" anyone?

I really understand why you are so SHY about answering questions on how Islam treats apostates and atheists.

Doesn't make you look very GOOD now, does it...

VICTORIA,

You quote some so called peaceful verses from the quran to prove that islam is a peaceful religion, on the other hand the highest we have the highest authorities if islam using another set of verses from the same book to justify killing of apostates, stoning of those who commit adultery, treating non muslim as dhimmi's, suicide bombers etc. and all these are real issues in muslim countries and muslim people.

Why should we accept your interpretation over their's (law makers in islamic countries) ?
Why must a book from Allah have evil verses ?

You can quote all the peaceful verses from islamic book or provide links to the so called true islamic sites but is it really going to address the problems of apostates ? Infact all your are doing is trying to draw people's attention away from the truth. The only way to help is to first admit islam and islamic countries have a problem, next is to try and get the laws in the countries changed. Perhaps you can get Mattson or Armstrong to address this problem.

Since how long have you been a muslim ? I recently made some good friends with some franciscans in bosnia.

Victoria,

Other than proving you can copy and paste, you have proven nothing. Islam is still a sham that is played out daily by the constant butchery amongst the Islamic Sunnis and Islamic Shiites.

ALRIGHT I WILL POST SOMETHING BUT IT REQUIRES YOU TO READ Q & A

THE PUNISHMENT OF APOSTASY IN ISLAM

Part I: The Qur`anic Perspective

By

Dr. Ahmad Shafaat

(February, 2006)

Question

As-salam ‘alaykum,

Dear Dr. Shafaat,

I visited your site. There is a lot of valuable information available in your site. I have many queries regarding Islam that trouble my mind. I would be much grateful to you if you could answer those queries. To start with, I have much trouble understanding the punishment of apostasy. Do you believe that the punishment of apostasy is death according to Islam? Is this not against the freedom for an individual to adopt any faith? Please explain.

Thanks.

Regards,
Mohd.

Answer

Wa 'alaykum al-salam! Thank you for your email. The fact that you have many queries suggests that you think and reflect about Islamic teachings. This is wonderful, since the Book of God instructs us to do such thinking and reflection. I would insha` allah answer your questions according to the ability God grants me.

The question you have raised about the punishment of apostasy in Islam, like any other question related to Islam, needs to be answered in the light of the Qur`an and the authen