All Comments (17)

Hi Brooksfoe,

First, as Rabbi Steinsaltz has already indicated, the attribute "irrational" can also be attributed to mankind in general. Specifically, Hitchens' failure to realise this logical error makes his prior unqualified assertion rather an example of the irrational.

Second, if we were to include (say) Talmud as a specific part of a religion(say)Judaism, a unified and comprehensive body of text directed at and engaged with Torah and (by the way) a plethora of everyday Human Events, i think you might find it scoring rather high in rationality when it comes to its method, its discourse and its fruits.

Were it not for discursive rules like those in Talmud, every Human Law would be merely a command be it just or unjust. Similarly, without scientific method, an assertion concerning a natural state of affairs is neither true nor false.

-mason

Hi Brooksfoe,

First, as Rabbi Steinsaltz has already indicated, the attribute "irrational" can also be attributed to mankind in general. Specifically, Hitchens' failure to realise this logical error makes his prior unqualified assertion rather an example of the irrational.

Second, if we were to include (say) Talmud as a specific part of a religion(say)Judaism, a unified and comprehensive body of text directed at and engaged with Torah and (by the way) a plethora of everyday Human Events, i think you might find it scoring rather high in rationality when it comes to its method, its discourse and its fruits.

Were it not for discursive rules like those in Talmud, every Human Law would be merely a command be it just or unjust. Similarly, without scientific method, an assertion concerning a natural state of affairs is neither true nor false.

-mason

Brooksfoe said: "I can't imagine a strong ground for arguing that religion is not irrational."

Your "Argumentum ad ignorantiam" is not compelling for those who have experienced the Love of G-d firsthand. Perhaps lack of imagination is *your* problem.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

At least one of Hitchens's claims seems fairly ironclad: I can't imagine a strong ground for arguing that religion is not irrational.

The Good Rabbi hits it right on the head. Humankind in general has a tendency towards evil. Religion and philosophy moderate our behavior into acceptable ranges.

That these controls sometimes fail is no evidence of the evils of religion but evidence of the persistence of selfishness in the human heart.

Hewitt Said: "Religion is based on blind, irrational faith and obedience to self-appointed authority"

Actually, for many years the Early Christians were remarkable in their resistance to Roman self-appointed authority.

The Great Christian Reformation of the 1500s and 1600s ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_Reformation ) also demonstrated that the Christian community is capable of a great deal of self-criticism and institutional correction.

In short, your critique is little more than an adult version of "nana nana boo boo." Hating on religion is no substitute for intelligent dialogue.

The Good Rabbi hits it right on the head. Humankind in general has a tendency towards evil. Religion and philosophy moderate our behavior into acceptable ranges.

That these controls sometimes fail is no evidence of the evils of religion but evidence of

"Religion is based on blind, irrational faith and obedience to self-appointed authority"

Actually, for many years the Early Christians were remarkable in their resistance to Roman self-appointed authority.

The Great Christian Reformation of the 1500s and 1600s ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_Reformation ) also demonstrated that the Christian community is capable of a great deal of self-criticism and institutional correction.

In short, your critique is little more than an adult version of "nana nana boo boo." Hating on religion is no substitute for intelligent dialogue.

A wonderfully gentle reflection. But it ultimately doesn't give rest to the opposing argument: that religion not only provides a crystallization and intensification of the human experience (including giving some safe harbor to worse aspects of that experience), but that it has at its center a dubious stance towards humankind’s external world. The dubiousness of religion, this argument would hold, springs not from the fact that religion responds to the natural human yearning for that which is above and outside ourselves, but from the fact that religion would nurture and promote a belief in the supernatural; a belief that is naturally and comfortably aligned with an ancient and an extraordinarily distorted understanding of our bodies (including our minds), the world, history, and our universe, and completely misaligned with the current and much less distorted (though certainly not yet clear) understanding we may possess of these same things.

In it’s central focus on the supernatural (and it’s ascription of authority to same), religion is ultimately as much an anti-scientific framework of living as can be found.

That it does often succeed to sustain kind and caring living serves as testament to the resilience and (thankfully) often nurturing predisposition of our own species.

Quoting "Mr. Hitchens' definition of religion is a combined attack on the various faults that can be found in every kind of religion." The Word of the LORD is perfect.

Look at the Words from David "The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple."

Psalms 101

1. I will sing of mercy and judgment: unto thee, O Lord, will I sing.
2. I will behave myself wisely in a perfect way. O when wilt thou come unto me? I will walk within my house with a perfect heart.
3. I will set no wicked thing before mine eyes: I hate the work of them that turn aside; it shall not cleave to me.
4. A froward heart shall depart from me: I will not know a wicked person.
5. Whoso privily slandereth his neighbour, him will I cut off: him that hath an high look and a proud heart will not I suffer.
6. Mine eyes shall be upon the faithful of the land, that they may dwell with me: he that walketh in a perfect way, he shall serve me.
7. He that worketh deceit shall not dwell within my house: he that telleth lies shall not tarry in my sight.
8. I will early destroy all the wicked of the land; that I may cut off all wicked doers from the city of the Lord.

Look:
"I will behave myself wisely in a perfect way."
"I will walk within my house with a perfect heart."
"he that walketh in a perfect way, he shall serve me."

The result is clear:
"The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul"

"O my soul, thou hast said unto the Lord, Thou art my Lord: my goodness extendeth not to thee;
But to the saints that are in the earth, and to the excellent, in whom is all my delight."

"O Lord, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit. Sing unto the Lord, O ye saints of his, and give thanks at the remembrance of his holiness."

"O love the Lord, all ye his saints: for the Lord preserveth the faithful, and plentifully rewardeth the proud doer."

"O fear the Lord, ye his saints: for there is no want to them that fear him."

"For the Lord loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off."

" I will praise thee for ever, because thou hast done it: and I will wait on thy name; for it is good before thy saints."

" I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant, Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah. And the heavens shall praise thy wonders, O Lord: thy faithfulness also in the congregation of the saints."

"Ye that love the Lord, hate evil: he preserveth the souls of his saints; he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked."

"Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds. Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a two-edged sword in their hand; To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people; To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron; To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the Lord."

This is the the duty of the saints "To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people" "To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints."

If Mr. Hitchens' calls that evil, then he he is saying the Words of the LORD is evil. "he that walketh in a perfect way, he shall serve me." That is why Mr. Hitchens writes books and does not read, study, understand, or teach the Word of the LORD.

The Words of Moses "But ye that did cleave unto the Lord your God are alive every one of you this day." "Thou shalt fear the Lord thy God; him shalt thou serve, and to him shalt thou cleave, and swear by his name." "For if ye shall diligently keep all these commandments which I command you, to do them, to love the Lord your God, to walk in all his ways, and to cleave unto him;" "Ye shall walk after the Lord your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him." "That thou mayest love the Lord thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life"

The Words of Joshua "But take diligent heed to do the commandment and the law, which Moses the servant of the Lord charged you, to love the Lord your God, and to walk in all his ways, and to keep his commandments, and to cleave unto him, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul."

David wrote, "I hate the work of them that turn aside; it shall not cleave to me." Is not these Words clear, "That thou mayest love the Lord thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life"

Isaiah 14

1. For the Lord will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.
2. And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the Lord for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors.
3. And it shall come to pass in the day that the Lord shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,

The prophecy is clear "For the Lord will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob."

Is not these Words clear, "That thou mayest love the Lord thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life"

Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"

The Words are clear "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:" The sheep are beasts, they are not saints.

Two thirds of the world's religious believers are christian or muslim.

this site is not big enough to enumerate the bizarre and unreasonable things that these two religions believe in.

nor is it big enough to contain the violent acts that have been justified in their names by the perpetrators.

I can think of no war started based on secular humanist principles (and don't tell us Stalin was a Secular humanist).

I can think of no irrational beliefs harbored by true followers of the Buddha, or by "orthodox" Unitarians.

Jews make up one tenth of one percent of the world's population, so though they are very important to the historical development of religion, their numbers do not make them very influential (except in the Israel/Palestine conflict, where religion has nothing to do with it, does it?)

Rabbi: rethink yourself. Hitchens is overwhelmingly correct. You is overwhelmingly Pollyanna glasses bound

Mr. Hitchens has a brilliant intellect. Without balance of belief, the pendulumn is tilted. Go preach to the Burmese junta. Empty yourself of ego, meditate. My brothers are shot dead, imprisoned and beaten senseless. I will pray for them, meditate upon them and ask our God for a balance of heavenly justice.

No, Rabbi, Hitchens' attacks are directed at the PERCEIVED STRENGTHS of religion, not the faults of religion.

FAITH is THE perceived strength of religion, a strength based in willful ignorance, suspension of disbelief and the glorification of the same. FROM THIS "STRENGTH" spring the ills and faults of religion.

That you miss this basic point is a bit disturbing, to say the least.

If religion just reflects human nature - what is the point? People do good and bad in the name of religion - non-belivers do good and bad as well. I applaud the author for pointing this out - but it undermines belivers arguments that religion makes people better, moral or whatever... One of Hitchens points is that religion opens the door to irrational thought (faith) and the absoloute belief in authority (somebody is assigned to "interpert" god's will)... whereas rationalty and the encouragement of skeptical thought and analysis tends to lead to better decsisions and a more prosperous and healthy society - a byproduct of encouraging skeptical thought is that the society tends to have more atheists... Just look at the performance of the U.S. government over the last 6 years if you need so evidence in faith based decision making....

Could it be that to oppose violence is to actually promote violence? Many believe WW2 could have been avoided by not being opposed to violence, until it was too late, gave the wrong impression. Maybe locks keep honest people honest and if they are strong enough they actually keep crooks out too?

The road to hell is paved with the loftiest of intentions. Getting to heaven is unquestionably a good intention but blinds one to the real issue raised by Mr Hitchens whether he realizes it or not. The real question is, does that road actually lead to heaven? There is a road to hell too that looks an awfully lot like the one to heaven.

Both roads are the same road until one reaches the nebol bridge. There the judgment takes place. Is that the judgment of God or the judgment of Devil? Hint: the one giving the "test of soul" is Satan. It is Satan that decides via the results of a lie detector test who shall enter into the kingdom of God and who shall suffer "the second death" be devoured by a demon.

The good news is the Bible/Torah is a proved hoax just like "The Protocols of International Zionism" used by those who would take advantage of the not violent. Hoaxes invariably lead to miscalculations. Now take the Nazis and don't forget the Jewish community. There are no absolute calculations. Miscalculation is the norm so do yours carefully.

If religion just reflects human nature - what is the point? People do good and bad in the name of religion - non-belivers do good and bad as well. I applaud the author for pointing this out - but it undermines belivers arguments that religion makes people better, moral or whatever... One of Hitchens points is that religion opens the door to irrational thought (faith) and the absoloute belief in authority (somebody is assigned to "interpert" god's will)... whereas rationalty and the encouragement of skeptical thought and analysis tends to lead to better decsisions and a more prosperous and healthy society - a byproduct of encouraging rational thought is that the society tends to have more atheists... Just look at the performance of the U.S. government over the last 6 years if you need so evidence in faith based decision making....

Rabbi Adin Steinsaltz is, no doubt, correct in stating that not all religions are violent, intolerant, or irrational. It is also true that some have been founded by women. It would, however, be very difficult to argue the position that the biggest religions today in terms of number of adherents are tolerant, non-violent, rational in any sense, and that women play a significant part.

Christianity has the largest number of practitioners: about one-third of the world's population. Can anyone take the position that this religion places women at its forefront or that it tolerates lifestyles that depart from certain norms?

Let's not even get into the rationality of a religion based on a virgin birth, a universe that was fully-formed in six days, and a leader who was created for the purpose of being killed so that he could return from the dead.

A non-essentialist & non-reductivist but nonetheless historically informative definition of 'religion' would have been helpful - - -

X is a religion if X has at least a majority of the following characteristics: . . . . . . . . .

Otherwise claims about the vices or virtues of religion-as-such or a particular religion are worthless and only invite self-serving defensiveness from the so-called "faithful" of all "faiths", religious & non-religious, naturalist & non-naturalist, X & non-X!

As it was once well put, all of us live by "the substance of things unseen, the evidence of things hoped for", that is, that part of each person's web of beliefs in which we each, respectively, put our ultimate trust, only to be vindicated or not by living by those beliefs.

If you cherry pick good things from various religions, then you can claim religion is good. If you cherry pick bad things from various religions, then you can claim religion is bad. If you want to get to the essence of religion, however, then you have to look at what concepts define it and how that conception plays out in the real world.

Religion is based on blind, irrational faith and obedience to self-appointed authority. That conception is unlikely to turn out well in the real world, and it hasn't. For every orphan saved by religion, ten lives have been destroyed by religion. By its very nature religion is evil.