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Islam is a religion and not a state

These legislative laws in the Quran and the prophet's Madina were considered progressive and modern in the 7th century which is why nobody, not even the pagans, objected to it. The pagans objected to theological and ritual issues and not the state legal system since it was appropriate to theirs and progressive according to their time period. Issues like the kind of food to eat and deity to worship were more problematic for the pagans than inheritance laws or penal codes applied by the 1st Muslim community in Madina.

The state legislations mentioned in the Quran are not religious but civil. They were to be applied to Muslims and non Muslims in Madina alike. The mission of the prophet was not to govern and rule but circumstances led him to that and God guided him to establish a civil society that will ensure stability and justice based on 7th century standard. There is no mention on the Quran of any legislation not relevant to the prophet's Madina. If it was the intention of God to establish a state legal system along with religious legislation God would have certainly layed a framework that deals with legal issues outside the prophets' Madina community's legislative needs. Issues that were not relevant to that Madina community but were needed by later generations of Muslims. But He did not since it was not the mission of the Quran to do so. The job of the prophet as the Quran says is to convey the religious message. However circumstances led to the prophet establishing a community and this led to God guiding His prophet towards establishing a legal state structure as part of His guidance and support for His prophet.

Invite (all humankind) to the path of your Lord with wisdom and goodly exhortation and argue with them in the most kindly manner, for, indeed, your Lord knows best as to who strays from His path, and best who are the right-guided. (16:125)

Had your Lord so willed, all those who live on earth would surely have attained faith, will you then compel people, against their will, to believe? 10:99

And so, exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe. 88:21-22

Which is why we see there are gender differences in the state legislations in the Quran but no such differences in the religious legislations. Men and women fast, pray, perform haj, observe the halals and harams, zakat , die and resurrect and get judged exactly the same way as men.

"And among His signs are the creation of the heaven and earth, and the variation in your language and your colors; verily in that are signs for those who know" (30:22).

"O you mankind! We have created you from a single pair of male and female and made you into nations and tribes so that you know each other. Verily the most honored in the sight of God is the one who is most righteous" (49:13).

All the functions of the religious legislation relies on constants such as the movements of the sun, movements of the moon, usage of water and direction of Qibla. These are constants and not changing. They remain the same whether in its shape, direction or time. It is apllicable and accessible to everyone, whether rich or poor, male or female or ignorant or intelligent. The theological issues are also constant and beyond change. Humans do not control angels or past prophets or the resurrection from death or heaven or hell. These are constant theological realities beyond the scope of human evolution and progress and are attained by faith and faith alone.

However the state legislation in the Quran does seperate in some situations between gender and also between slaves and free men as this was the social and political milieu of the 7th century. Just as many modern state frameworks today seperates between citizens and non citizens, or between various professions or even legal statuses. God however does not discriminate between a man and woman, between a slave and a free man or between the various legal status of individuals when it comes to religious legislations as God is not a socially and culturally evolving entity as humans are. It was God's wisdom to establish a community with the legal and political norms of their time or else it would not have been seen by its intended targets as fair, just or even applicable and would not have achieved a stability enabling the Madina community to spread the Quran and the religious legislations needed by future Muslim adherents. It was a legislative framework appropriate to the tribal communities that existed in 7th century Arabia.

O ye who believe! the law of equality is prescribed to you in cases of murder: the free for the free, the slave for the slave, the woman for the woman. But if any remission is made by the brother of the slain, then grant any reasonable demand, and compensate him with handsome gratitude, this is a concession and a Mercy from your Lord. After this whoever exceeds the limits shall be in grave penalty 2.178.

We must seperate between religious and state legislations in the Quran and also identify what are the situations that was relevant to the 7th century Madina community and what are the issues relevant to us today. The concept of Muslim orthodoxy that emerged more than a century and a half after the prophet during the Abbasid era by the hands of Imam Al Shafi and company failed to do so. It simply relied on mimicking the practice of the 1st Muslim community in everything from religious functions and rituals to a legal and political code that became according to this orthodoxy also the last and only community. Thus depriving Muslim communities down the ages of any progress. A religious tradition and orthodoxy that succeded in theory but remained just that, a theory. Never able to be fully implemented in practice but always successful in depriving alternatives.

It relied on the necessity of compiling information about that 1st Muslim community with all its details and specifics since the Quran and the rituals that spread with the early generations of Muslims did not provide that information. They never asked themselves why the prophet nor his companions bothered spreading details of the legal codes and juristic practices and decisions of the prophet's Madina. It assumed the establishment of the legal and political codes was the intended purpose of the prophet's teachings and message. Many times it contradicted other Quranic verses about no compulsion in religion and the verses in the Quran reminding the prophet his duty is simply to convey a message and not to compel.

There is no compulsion in religion, for the right way is clearly from the wrong way. Whoever therefore rejects the forces of evil and believes in God, he has taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way, for God is All Hearing and Knowing. 2:256

But if they turn away from you, your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message .16:82

Through abrogation, contradictory legal opinions and prophetic traditions which they claimed to have been passed to them across the ages that seemed to support their outlook, they somehow manage to find a way out. A way out of the contradiction between a religious state whose job was to enforce laws and no compulsion in religion.

The orthodoxy that emerged during the 2nd and 3rd century after the prophet failed to appreciate the historicity of the 1st Muslim community and relied on the convenience of mimicking. It left the Muslim masses in the peculiar situation of irrelevancy and contradiction in the modern era. A contradiction between theory and practice. A contradiction many Muslim societies live to this day. While a group of Muslims saw the Taliban as the ideal Islamic state, others saw just another pre-medieval state common around the world during the 7th to 12 century.

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As I review my print-out of my recent submission, it's clear how careless I was not to proof-read my entry first.

I find errors; words not correctly 'chosen', so if one wants to figure out where did I:

Use the word 'but' when I wanted the word 'for' ()

Where was an extra 'g' in a word that shouldn't have been there ()

Where was the word 'but' used when the word 'by' would have been much better ()

Where was the word 'them' the correct word, and not the word 'me' ()

And when would the two words: 'move from' have been a much better (and more clear) choice, than the word 'find' ()

And even though are and our sound much alike, where should the word 'our' have been used, instead of are ()

The 55 posts that preceded mine were expertly written; no mistakes made to the degree I erred.

Poor eye-sight plagues me in these later years; fortunately, I had good eyes for over 60 years, and now I'm struggling to keep the reading pace I once kept, with difficulty.

I guess I can use this space to further my viewpoint by saying:

Through the advancement of science, one can now have their poor eye-sight restored by Lasik surgery; my appointment is in January and after that, my eyes will be 'born-again'.

No God has seen fit to intervene and perform any minor miracle on my ailing eyes; only man's quest for bringing optimum health and comfort to one another, has pursued the need to see - see as best we can. My gratitude lies with the desires of man to improve upon the quality of life in this world.

As the man known as Thomas J. Reese stated: "I believe in life before death."

I truly read each and every one of the 55 postings; some, more than once.

Since I've moved from being a Christian, to one who now sees the need to allow various sciences who've proven not only how man can 'evolve'; learn, and progress, but to such an extent as to give us the 'power' to speak (from around the world) in this very message board.

The mind of man; the spirit of man - the evolution of wisdom and the desire to sort through the history of life on this earth to bring some type of balance and resolution to those difficulties every single human encounters, tells me that we do not need to linger on dieties of any kind. We do not need apparitions; to have 'visions', to refer to things that are ancient and while interesting, they do 'not apply' as once the might have done.

I've read about the 'soul'; the achievement of such purity, as to go above and beyond these 'mortal temptations and vices' - one of your posters has been truly diligent and clear in her references to various passages from your book of faith.

I keep my Bible as a very handy guide for 'decent and charitable living'. I've read a number of religious books; other religions seem to also STRIVE for this 'goodness'; however, I'd suggest that 'purity' is a word that should be omitted in modern times, because to define pure is to rely (again) on a word that is often mis-used.

I worked with an American company known to anyone in this country as Proctor & Gamble. They marketed their Ivory soap as being "99.44% PURE". Ivory was 'born' as a mere 'accident' when the man who was tending the mixing machine, left for lunch; was late returning and too much air was beaten into the soap. To avoid throwing out the soap (frugal thinking), they decided to pour the soap into the molds; once removed, they were 'light and airy' (like an angel they felt), and with their marketing skills, they sold the soap FOR THE SAME PRICE, but since it would 'float' it was called 'pure', and the consumer was now willing to 'buy air'.

This little bit of history might not seem relevant on this site, but what I hear is 'air being beaten' into some of the remarks, and I'm not about to 'buy air'.

Historically, humans have been finding reasons to 'cluster' into groups; adopt a site for their 'chosen few', and then need to 'create' a God or deity that allows them become members of that 'heavenly club' they long so much to enjoy. I think the simple fact that death is real; that life in this world is short, creates such a 'fear factor' (and particularly in ancient times), that it was more necessary to create the various Gods/Idols/you name it, they've created it!

They say in the Christian religion that "God created Man in his own image." I dispute that by saying: "Man created God in is own image."

In our daily lives, when things happen in a 'good way', we think we've received a blessing. When things don't happen in the way we want, we say that God is punishing us. I think we forget, that it is OUR POINT OF VIEW, that is determining if this is a blessing or a punishment, and if those who really do believe in their God (in whatever religion), they will NOT try to define the good or the bad; the blessing or the punishsment, because then they are infringing upon 'their God'. Frankly, who knows what God/Allah/The Tooth Fairy, or Santa Claus would have to say since they've yet to show up at any church I've visited.

The fact these dieties show up to those who 'chew the grasses; seeds, and petals' of what I call: Crazy Weeds', gives you the first clue as to what kind of 'medicine' some founders of the various faiths were practicing. Why would one need alchohol when they can't get their visions; definitely these little piles of herbs and leaves bring the spirits to them, and they can visit the 'other side'.

You only need to go to some of the web-sites (use Google) to search for these little magic 'herbs'; not only do they describe their hallucinagenic powers, but you can actually order them for use in the class-room only. Large red letters spell out clearly: For use in the class-room only. Botanists indeed!?! That's like saying when you get that big box of Christmas chocolates, they are only to be looked at and never eaten.

I realize I'm moving away from the point I wanted to make. I'm rambling because my mind is trying to recall these 55 posts; remember how impressed I was with all the dedication and work of those who posted here, but I was stunned to see so many trying to 'do the right thing'; to educate any reader on this religion, but failing to realize that each and every religious zealot and advocate tries to do the SAME THING, and as a result, NO ONE IS READING WITH AN OPEN MIND if they are reading at all!

What do you accomplish when you continue in your religious rut? One individual who posted here used some humor and even sarcasm as he clearly reminded us that we're expending a great deal of energy with trying to shove ideas in front of others, who simply are NOT going to budge one bit because THEY BELIEVE THEIR INTERPRETATION IS RIGHT.

Facts and figures have been posted here; very helpful - the time-line was truly revealing.

Articles by other 'experts' appear on this site; again, intelligent and well drafted, but still not really looking around, and recognizing that if all that is written here is 'gospel' (using the term my former religion uses), then WHY ISN'T IT WORKING!?!

These mysterious 'Gods' (lump them all together where possible) - if they do exist - then WHICH ONE IS THE REAL GOD? This reminds me of the old television show where the 'real' person must 'stand up' while the other 2 contestants pretend to be the same person. Further: Why are we spending BILLIONS of dollars on publications; books, Bibles, Korans, etc., when the only thing I see here is it's a thriving business to keep religion going! Further: Even better then keeping religion going, is to keep the ARGUMENTS going; more profit when people continue to thump and bang on something they'll never prove in their life-time.

Like cancer that runs rampant because to cure it would be a virtual economic diaster, religion falls into a segement of the 'healthy economy' of not just the United States, but other thriving nations as well.

I remind myself that my ward-robe costs were reduced when I stopped going to church; stopped paying the organ for the Sunday service, and no longer ran my car for choice practice and other 'missions' on behalf of the church. I thought about trying to figure out just how much money gets spent in a year, but the millions who make the journey.

The Holy Lands are a mix of old buildings and the newest of shopping malls as they create tons of trinkets for the 'visitor' to take home (and that doesn't include the cost of air travel for the many who fly there).

Again, I could create a multitude of 'examples', nevertheless, I'd say in the most recent of years, the costs in the loss of human life and property damage to not just this country, but in other spots around the world are enormous. These losses still provide 'jobs' for those who 'rebuild'; those who are all associated with the destruction and demise of a land-mark targeted by a destructive force that in some cases, clearly refer to their religious views as the reason for such agggression.

The Christians have a bloody history; I've spent years reading on this, which is part of the reason I abandoned that religion. I found more hypocrites sitting in the front row of the church than I found outside the church, and that was another clue for me, to stop following a 'ritual', that was a waste.

I now can do my charity work that I so much enjoy, but selecting those I personally see (or hear about) that have needs. I do NOT go to those people with a religious 'book in hand', and start telling me where they have strayed from the righteous path; I go to take care of their NEEDS IN THIS LIFE.

I guess I'd say that the best thing I ever got from the Bible were the 10 commandments, and they essentially appear in most other books of faith; just re-worded a bit, but clearly most describe a way of life that is not destructive, and requires the mind and heart to have concern and empathy for others in this world.

Since I've seem to run a bit hither and yon with my remarks, I'd only like to close by saying what everyone certainly knows: The only souls or spirits or humans who could validate the fact there is a heaven or after-life, are all DEAD, and can't give testimony to us who are still in this world. If one wants to consider this world as not the ultimate world; the 'real world', then as one person mentioned, they should all kill each other, and join their ancestors in this heavenly place that has so much more to offer.

As I would say to someone who doesn't like being a citizen of this country: "Move". If our country is so 'bad', then why are millions flocking to it from all around the world?!? I'd suggest to those who find their geograhical location where the birth of their religion was born, commiting a sin and transgression by abandoning their birth-place, and seeking greener pastures. I'd suggest that maybe the God of their land they love so much, might be terrbily upset with this exodus to another land that has formed its own religion and is primarily focused on the Christian faith.

Personally, I do not want to move to a place where my thoughts and practices might be disruptive or abrasive to my new neighbors. I stay in this country because my ancestors came here in 1621; yet, they came from Germany, and no doubt I could justify traveling to Germany and introducing myself to those who've been born to this same family but remained in their native land.

I do believe we can't insulate or isolate, but we can congregate and when making this attempt with such a large world population, we should adopt a scientific and technology approach that is proven and changes not for any religion or concept written by man, but remains ever constant as the sun, stars, moon, and planets remain are mutual source of light; the water gives us life, and there is no punishment by nature that targets a specific religious group man has developed.

Thank you for bearing with me if you've read this far; thank you for caring enough about your religion to offer it for review and understanding, but realize this: If a person is blind; not educated, and can't speak or read well, there is no deity that will punish that individual, and that individual will live within the world he or she perceives as nature expresses herself to us all.

Let nature guide and protect; let what we laarn in the way of advancement for the future, bring a true comfort and peace for the world.

First why we need the religion:
1- No man, by his own self, could provide substantial explanation on who found this life, how and why we came to it, why should we leave it again, where we are going next,
2- Man needed always to search for an answer for those questions.
3- And the starting point is to identify our founder.
4- It is obvious that our founder made the life suitable for our living and growth, and will not leave us without revealing guidance (religion) to our good.
5- The guidance is required also to bring qualities and standards for our life.
6- When some humans couldn't reach to the true religion they fabricated philosophies, illusions, and untruthful religions in order to suppress any internal call for the truth.
7- The challenge now is to find the true guidance (religion(s)).
8- The adequacy of the religion should not be evaluated by wrong practices done by some of its followers.
In my next participation, by help of God, I will continue writing in this matter and about Islam which was the last revealed religion and a serial continuation of other revealed religions.

July 5 news roundup of UK terror plot investigation activities and related news:

-- 45 Muslim doctors planned US terror raids. Daily Telegraph reports that "45 Muslim doctors threatened to use car bombs and rocket grenades in terrorist attacks in the United States during discussions on an extremist internet chat site". Police found details of discussion on the British Jihadist web site run by Younis Tsouli ("Terrorist 007"). Jihadists stated "We are 45 doctors and we are determined to undertake jihad and take the battle inside America.The first target which will be penetrated by nine brothers is the naval base which gives shelter to the ship Kennedy." Telegraph believes that is refers to the USS John F Kennedy, which is often at Mayport Naval Base in Jacksonville, Florida. Daily Telegraph states that the Jihadists also referred to using six Chevrolet GT vehicles and three fishing boats and blowing up petrol tanks with rocket propelled grenades. This would support Sky News report on July 4 of British Anglican cleric Canon Andrew White who has said of an April discussion with Al-Qaeda representative where "[h]e told me that they were going to start killing in the UK then the USA".

16 July 2007: The Northeast Intelligence Network was first to confirm during the June 30, 2007 edition of the Homeland Security Report that last month’s failed London car bomb plot had its tentacles reaching far into the United States. Now, NBC24, a television station in Toledo, Ohio is reporting that the FBI has questioned a Muslim doctor who recently moved to Toledo from the UK. Toledo also happens to be the corporate home of KindHearts for Charitable Humanitarian Development, an Islamic charity chaired by Hatem El-HADY, a Toledo physician, and a charity that has been the subject of an investigation for its reported ties to terror organizations.

The Toledo doctor was questioned by the FBI on July 4, 2007, less than a week after the failed bomb plot in London. According to information obtained through additional investigation conducted by the Northeast Intelligence Network, authorities are focused on a number of subjects in the U.S., including Muslim doctors, and others in the Toledo area who are also associated with a specific Toledo, Ohio mosque. When contacted by this agency, a spokesperson for the mosque declined to speak with this Northeast Intelligence Network investigator.

The July 4th visit to the unnamed Toledo doctor has prompted Toledo area Muslims to circulate an e-mail warning to Muslim doctors “to be ready for a knock at the door by the FBI,” and urged them to “have an attorney present” when answering questions asked by law enforcement officials. Following up on the investigation in Toledo, this Northeast Intelligence Network investigator spoke to a federal law enforcement official from Cleveland, Ohio who is familiar with the various overlapping investigations in Toledo. [MORE: Click on "read more" above or on article title to continue reading].

Responding to the e-mail being circulated, this law enforcement official stated that this type of “feigned cooperation” by the majority of Muslims, whether they are imams, Muslim community leaders or simply members of the Muslim community “is the norm.” “It has been my experience that it’s not unusual for Muslims to publicly portray a sense of cooperation, yet privately stonewall our investigations by refusing to answer questions, or limit their dialogue with law enforcement to communicating only though an attorney, even for the most basic of questions.”

This federal official, speaking to this investigator on the strict condition of anonymity, expressed his frustration at the misconception of a working dialogue between federal agents and “certain Muslim leaders and their representatives.” If you listen to them, they are actively trying to help us [law enforcement] weed out the bad guys,” stated this source. “That’s not quite the reality of it. There is a lot of stonewalling, unwillingness to share information about possible actions of other Muslims that could have criminal implications, or even ties to terrorism,” he added. “We’re talking about everything from possible terrorist funding to direct or peripheral ties to terrorism. When it comes down to them helping us by providing even some answers to the most basic of questions, there is a tremendous amount of resistance and unnecessary roadblocks. I can say from experience that instead of answering questions openly when asked, we have been put off, told to direct our inquiries to their legal representatives, or simply turned away. To make matters worse, we have been frequently told to ‘lay off’ by higher ups, to avoid causing a PR problem, I guess,” stated this source. “It’s definitely frustrating and the supposed cooperation, at least from my experience, is not being honestly portrayed.”

When asked about the media reports that Muslims are urged by Islamic advocacy groups to fully and truthfully cooperate with law enforcement whenever questioned, this source stated “I wish it was that easy, but it’s not like that at all. There is a tremendous unwillingness for Muslims to talk other Muslims, and it’s getting worse.”

This is not the first time a doctor in Toledo has been questioned or at the center of investigation. In an unrelated case, Dr. Mohammad ANVARI-HAMEDANI, 72, a licensed physician, pleaded guilty last April to 36 counts of money laundering, making illegal money transfers to Iran and tax evasion for sending at least $4 million to his native Iran over a four year period. ANVARI-HAMEDANI was sentenced to 60 days in a community jail and ordered to pay $1.15 million in fines and forfeitures. U.S. District Judge James Carr permitted ANVARI-HAMEDANI to serve his jail time on weekends so that he can continue practicing medicine.

Here is another site that keeps up-to-date on the Brotherhood's activities and mentions the suspect organizations involved in illegal activity.

http://www.douglasfarah.com/article/233/more-gleaned-from-the-holy-land-foundation-exhibits.com

This is the document, I think related to the CURRENT TRIAL.

http://www.nefafoundation.org/miscellaneous/HLF/US_v_HLF_Unindicted_Coconspirators.pdf

It lists some organizations and people as unindicted coconspirators such as:

VII. The following are individuals/entities who are and/or were members of the US
Muslim Brotherhood:

1. Abdel Rahman Alamoudi
2. Gaddor Ibrahim Saidi
3. Islamic Society of North America, aka ISNA
4. Muslim Arab Youth Association, aka MAYA
5. Nizar Minshar
6. North American Islamic Trust, aka NAIT
7. Raed Awad
8. Tareq Suwaidan

The Muslim Brotherhood's WAR ON THE WEST: 3 of 4

In Britain in 1997, the Muslim Brotherhood founded the Muslim Association of Britain (MAB). This group claims to be moderate, and promotes missionary (dawah) work among the young.
Friday, June 15, 2007By Adrian Morgan

In Britain in 1997, the Muslim Brotherhood founded the Muslim Association of Britain (MAB). This group claims to be moderate, and promotes missionary (dawah) work among the young. Its founder, Kamal Tawfik Helbawy, was at that time the Brotherhood's European spokesman. Born in Egypt in 1939, he had been a member of the Brotherhood since the age of 12. He co-founded the World Assembly of Muslim Youth (WAMY) in Saudi Arabia in 1972 with Abdullah bin Laden, Osama's nephew. WAMY is an organization which has been accused of funding terrorist organizations, including Hamas. Kamal Helbawy was WAMY's first president.
In November 1997, in the same year that he had founded MAB, Helbawy helped to found the Muslim Council for Britain (MCB), which was officially inaugurated on March 1, 1998. As Helbawy stated in a 2005 interview: "I played a role in the establishment of the MCB. Our objective was that the MCB should remain independent and its primary function should be to represent and protect the interests of Muslims."

The MCB, whose senior members have supported extremism, enjoyed an unprecedented position with Blair's government, acting as advisers on all things Islamic. In June 2005 its then-secretary general Iqbal Sacranie was given a knighthood by Blair, even though he is an anti-Semite who wishes to see Holocaust Memorial day scrapped. In 1996, Sacranie supported plans to invite Osama bin Laden to the UK to lecture to Muslims, claiming the terrorist was an "Islamic Scholar". Despite boycotting memorials for the Shoah, Sacranie nonetheless attended a memorial service for Sheikh Yassin, the founder of terror group Hamas. This service was held at London's Central Mosque in 2004.

In 2005, the MCB persuaded Blair to introduce a bill which would have outlawed any criticism of Islam, which was neutered by the Lords, parliament's Upper House. In June 2006, the unelected MCB succeeded in persuading the elected Blair government to abandon its 18-month campaign to outlaw forced marriage, which annually affects at least 250 young Muslim girls.

The government has been so manipulated by the claims of the "moderate" Muslims in Britain, that MI6 and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office have actively courted the Muslim Brotherhood. The overtures to the Brotherhood have been made through a unit called the Engaging With the Islamic World Group" (EWIG) which was founded in 2003. EWIG is led by a 27-year old former Muslim radical called Mockbul Ali. In July 2006, this group used taxpayers' money to pay Yusuf al-Qaradawi, spiritual leader of the Brotherhood, to attend a conference in Turkey. On July 14, 2005, one week after the London bombings, Mockbul Ali argued that a visa should again be given to Qaradawi. That document and others can be found here.

After the London suicide bombings of July 7, 2005, the Blair government invited Tariq Ramadan, son of Said Ramadan and grandson of Hassan al-Banna, to sit on a working committee. This committee was set up to find ways of preventing radicalism amongst Britain's youth. Ramadan is not even a UK citizen, and according to Jean Charles Brissard, he has had meetings with known terrorists in his native Switzerland. The UK government sponsors a website promoting "the radical middle way" of Islam, where Ramadan has his own page. Tariq Ramadan is still barred from entering to the US, though he insists he is not a Muslim Brotherhood member.

US Politicians Duped By The Brotherhood

In the United States, one individual maintained a pretense of "moderation" which would later embarrass the left and the right. According to the testimony of Dr Michael Waller to the US Senate Committee on the Judiciary, Abdurahman Alamoudi was a member of the Muslim Brotherhood. A man born in Eritrea in 1951, he arrived in the US in 1979 and became a naturalized US citizen on May 23, 1996. From 1985 onwards he became involved in many Muslim groups. In 1990 he founded the Washington DC-based American Muslim Council (AMC), which Waller states "has been described as a de facto front of the Muslim Brotherhood." The AMC was an affiliate of the American Muslim Foundation, which was also headed by Alamoudi. Despite this, in June 2002 the FBI called the AMC "the most mainstream Muslim group in the United States."

What is of concern is the manner in which Alamoudi persuaded US authorities under two administrations of his reliability. Around 1993, he was an adviser for the Pentagon on which Muslim chaplains should serve in the US military. He continued this role until 1998. From 1997 he acted for the State Department as a "goodwill ambassador" to Muslim countries. He was regularly at the Clinton White House and had advised Hillary Rodham Clinton on managing iftar dinners since 1996. Alamoudi had made donations to the Democrat party but was open to wooing the opposition.

In 1998, as Frank Gafney recounted, right-wing Republican Grover Norquist formed the Islamic Institute, which aimed to recruit Muslim and Arab Americans to support the GOP. Alamoudi made contributions both to the Islamic Institute and later, in 2000 and 2001, he made payments to a lobbying firm connected with Norquist.

Alamoudi's Brotherhood connections were not touted openly, but in August 1997 he was publicly proclaiming on Fox TV that Hamas was a "freedom fighting organization". Hamas had started its first bombings of Israeli civilians in February 1996, a year earlier. On October 28, 2000, Alamoudi attended an anti-Israel protest at Lafayette part outside the White House, where he was caught on video proclaiming "I have been labeled … as being a supporter of Hamas. Anybody supporters of Hamas here? Hear that, Bill Clinton. We are all supporters of Hamas. I wish they added that I am also a supporter of Hezbollah. Anybody who supports Hezbollah here?"

Shortly afterward the White House outburst, Hillary Clinton returned a donation of $1,000 to her election war chest, which Alamoudi had presented on May 25 of that year. Alamoudi embarked upon at least 10 clandestine trips to Libya. On September 28, 2003 after returning from a multi-stage excursion he was arrested at Dulles International Airport. He was handed an 19-count indictment on October 23, on charges including money laundering, dealing with a prohibited nation.

Alamoudi had been stopped at Heathrow on August 16, 2003 before boarding a flight to Syria, and had $340,000 of Libyan money seized. On July 30, 2004 he pleaded guilty to three charges - violating conditions barring transport to and commerce with prohibited nations (Libya), failure to disclose to IRS his income, and lying to ICE federal investigators. On October 15, 2004, Alamoudi was given a jail sentence of 23 years. He had told officials that he provided Libyan money to London-based Saudi dissidents to finance a plot to assassinate Saudi Crown Prince Abdullah.

Politicians may have been fooled by Alamoudi, who headed sixteen US-based Islamist organizations, but despite what is known of the Muslim Brotherhood's support of terrorism and extremism, US politicians are now openly courting the Brotherhood. On April 5 this year in Egypt. House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer met with Mohammed Saad el-Katatni, the leader of the Brotherhood's 55 members within the Egyptian parliament. Hamdi Hassan, the Brotherhood's spokesman, said Hoyer met with el-Katani once at the parliament building and later at the home of the US ambassador to Egypt.

On May 27, a delegation by four members of the House of Congress again met with Mohammed Saad el-Katatni in Egypt. The delegation was led by David Price, a Democrat who represents North Carolina.

The Enemy Within

While Said Ramadan was establishing European bases for the Muslim Brotherhood in Geneva and Munich, similar actions were being taken in the United States. In 1962, an organization called the "Cultural Society" was set up, the first Muslim Brotherhood body to be formed on American soil. Muslim Brotherhood members are sworn to secrecy when they join up ("kitman" or concealment) so exact details of this group are murky. The Cultural Society mainly drew its recruits from foreign Muslim students at midwestern universities, such as Illinois, Indiana and Michigan. The name "Cultural Society" was employed to draw attention away from its Brotherhood identity. The following year, the Muslim Students Association (MSA) was formed by the US Brotherhood, and up until the 1970s, new bodies proliferated.

The website of a newer Brotherhood-founded group, the Muslim American Society (MAS) describes its founders as "pioneers" - "The call and the spirit of the movement reached the shores of North America with arrival of Muslim students and immigrants in the late 1950s and early 1960s. These early pioneers and Islamic movement followers established in 1963 the Muslim Student Association (MSA) of the U.S and Canada as a rallying point in their endeavor to serve Islam and Muslims in North America. Other services and outreach organizations soon followed, such as the North American Islamic Trust (NAIT), the Islamic Medical Association (IMA), the Muslim Arab Youth Association (MAYA) and the Muslim Youth of North America (MYNA), to name a few."

All of the groups listed above were formed by the Muslim Brotherhood. MYNA was founded by Ahmed Elkadi, who was the US Brotherhood's treasurer from the 1970s until 1984, when he became its president. He held this position until 1995, but has since left the Brotherhood. He did not resign from his position as president of the US Ikhwan - he was pushed.

Other groups were founded by the US Brotherhood later - the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA) was formed in the 1980s as an outgrowth of the Muslim Students Association (MSA).

The Muslim American Society, under Brotherhood leadership, was incorporated in 1993 in Illinois. The decision to incorporate the MAS was made at a meeting of 40 Ikhwan (MB) members at a hotel near the Alabama-Tennessee state line. Shaker Elsayed, an leader within MAS, has admitted the Brotherhood had founded the Muslim American Society, saying: "Ikhwan members founded MAS, but MAS went way beyond that point of conception."

MAS is based in Falls Church, Virginia, the same town where Abdurahman Alamoudi lived. Five miles away in Alexandria lay the US headquarters of the World Assembly of Muslim Youth or WAMY, which was co-founded by a Brotherhood member, Kamal Helbawy. On Friday May 28, 2004 the WAMY offices were raided by agents of the FBI, ICE and the Joint Terrorism Task Force. An affidavit from a customs agent claimed that one WAMY publication included a section entitled "Animosity Toward the Jews", and stated: "The Jews are humanity's enemies: they foment immorality in this world." The affidavit mentioned links with WAMY and the terrorist group Hamas.

The director of MAS' "Freedom Foundation", Mahdi Bray, pushed for the release of a Falls Church Citizen, Ahmed Omar Abu Ali, who had been accused of plotting to assassinate George W. Bush in al al-Qaeda plot. Ali, who had been educated at the Saudi-funded Islamic Saudi Academy in Alexandria, was convicted on November 22, 2005 and sentenced to 30 years' jail on March 29, 2005.

MAS, which has 10,000 members in 53 chapters across the US, is also involved in the disputes at Minneapolis-St Pauls airport, where Somali taxi drivers have refused to carry passengers with alcohol. Three quarters of the 900 drivers are Muslim, mostly from Somalia. Last year, 5,400 potential rides were turned down because passengers had alcohol. The Metropolitan Airport Commission sought guidance from Muslims, and a fatwa was made by the MAS. Khalid Elmasary declared: "It is expressly stated. Transportation of alcohol for Muslims is against the Islamic faith, and therefore forbidden." The issue still has not been resolved.

It is sometimes hard to work out if such Muslim "representatives" are really following the ways of the prophet, or are following the plans laid out in Muslim Brotherhood's "Project" manifesto for gaining national and global power.

Mahdi Bray, who is based in Washington DC where he has a radio talk-show, is accused of taking part in protests were calls for the death of Jews. Steve Emerson in his book American Jihad stated that at the October 28 2000 rally for Hezbollah and Hamas at Lafayette Park, "Mahdi Bray, stood directly behind Alamoudi and was seen jubilantly exclaiming his support for these two deadly terrorist organizations." Three weeks earlier, Bray had "coordinated and led a rally where approximately 2,000 people congregated in front of the Israeli Embassy in Washington, D.C.... at one point during the rally, Mahdi Bray played the tambourine as one of the speakers sang, while the crowd repeated: 'Al-Aqsa is calling us, let's all go into jihad, and throw stones at the face of the Jews."

Bray, who was awarded a Congressional Black Caucus award in September last year, has issued a press release claiming "victory" in the settlement of vindictive lawsuit launched by the Islamic Society of Boston, which attacked 16 organizations and individuals, including Steve Emerson.

There was no settlement agreed between the parties - the Islamic Society of Boston mysteriously dropped its lawsuit, which claimed "defamation", on May 29, 2007. With MAS coming to its defense, and with Muslim Brotherhood member Abdurahman Alamoudi listed as one its founders and trustees, with the Muslim Brotherhood's spiritual leader Yusuf al-Qaradawi as another early trustee, it is not unreasonable to assume that the Islamic Society of Boston began its life in 1982 as another outreach of the Muslim Brotherhood. In 2002, Qaradawi appeared by videolink at an ISB fund-raising event.

The ISB, which is building the largest mosque in Eastern United States at Roxborough, Boston, was in January 2006 defended by Arsalan Iftikhar, the legal director of the Council of American Relations (CAIR), who said: "Unfortunately, I see the Boston case as indicative of a growing trend in anti-Muslim rhetoric that has grown after 9/11." It should be noted that the two co-founders of CAIR, Omar Ahmad and Nihad Awad, were officials of the Islamic Association for Palestine, which was established by Hamas member Mousa Abu Marzook, and has been called a "Hamas Front". Nihad Awad and Ahmed Bedier, head of CAIR's Florida chapter, have both openly pledged their support for Hamas, which itself is derived from the Muslim Brotherhood.

With its previous links to Muslim Brotherhood members, ISB may be thankful that it was not listed as an "unindicted co-conspirator" in a plot to fund Hamas. This has been the recent fate of CAIR. In a trial in Dallas, Texas, Ghassan Elashi, the head of CAIR's Texas chapter, is accused with a staggering list of co-conspirators. Elashi was also head of Texas branch of the outlawed Holy Land Foundation. The indictment maintains that other officials from the Texas branch of the Holy Land Foundation, had conspired with numerous others to supply funds to Hamas. Ghassan Elashi and his brothers Bayan and Basman were convicted of "conspiracy to provide material support to terrorists" on April 13, 2005. Elashi was given a seven year sentence on October 13, 2006.

The named co-conspirators include eight Muslim Brotherhood individuals and organizations: Abdurahman Alamoudi, Gaddor Ibrahim Saidi, the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA), Muslim Arab Youth Association (MAYA), Nizar Minshar, North American Islamic Trust (NAIT), Raed Awad and Tareq Suwaidan. The trial will begin on July 16. The trial will hopefully clarify further the exact roles of CAIR, and also the mysterious American contingent of the Muslim Brotherhood.

The Muslim Brotherhood is not a body to be trusted. It claims peace and moderation, while simultaneously planning to conquer the globe by fair means or foul. It propagates anti-Semitism, and justifies and supports the murder of Israeli civilians. Its current motto is: "Allah is our objective. The Prophet is our leader. Koran is our law. Jihad is our way. Dying in the way of Allah is our highest hope." Those politicians who try to do deals with such a group are betraying not only the people who elected them and the nations they serve, but they jeopardize the security of the Western world at large.

This article was also published at FamilySecurityMatters.org

It's a great achievement for Islamic leaders and scholars as well as Newsweek and the Washington post to present this imperative opportunity for inter cultural and global philosophical dialogue. What's important is that by exchanging our ideas and comments regarding inter religious relations and world events that affect our views of each other as fellow human beings. Since the advent of humanity, We strove to make sense of the world we live in and the lives we've experienced. Worldwide curiosities to learn the true nature of life and our universe is an exceptionally rare virtue upon life on Earth. In other words, we're the only known species on the planet who've pursued to unravel these great mysteries and developed written philosophies based upon our understanding of the world around us.
One such philosophy that lasted throughout the ages of humanity is commonly known as religion and spirituality. Ever since our early belief in the Sky God and the God Mother from ancient Pagan times, we vigorously pursued to unravel the truth about our most profound questions. As any educated person would know that religion and their core beliefs or faith have evolved over time. Paganism, Monotheism and Polytheism have been influenced by humanity as these great philosophies have influenced our perceptions and decisions in life over the ages. Over time humanity has embraced diverse religious faiths and spiritual convictions that continue to influence our behavior in our times and most likely beyond.
What's vital for humanity's progress and even survival is to know the true nature of faith itself. To understand the true origins of faith. But most of all, is to accept the truth for whatever it may be. Each one of us will learn the absolute truth once we die. But until that time comes for anyone of us to depart this world, we really don't know the answer to God's existence nor do we have the absolute truth in regards to the true nature of God. Besides if we did possess the truth, there would've been only one religion on Earth with no diversification of any way, shape of form. There would only be one holy scripture written throughout human history.
Considering one's religious faith to be absolute, while considering others to be false would be ethnocentric at best. While collectively searching to unravel the mysteries on nature, life and the universe through sincere reasoning and serious research would be enlightening at its worst. Most importantly, we must accept the fact is that none of us have conclusive evidence to confirm our core beliefs and there's always an immanent change that our most cherished beliefs could be wrong. Our greatest challenge would be to tolerate the truth no matter what it may ultimately be. With such an open mind, we would be able to overcome any future discovery that would contradict our faith regarding the true nature of life, spirituality and divinity.
Humanity does have the ability to achieve such a social achievement. However, it's solely up to humanity and not any other entity or groups of entities to decide our destinies. Each one of us has a choice to make; either hopelessly engaging into meaningless inter cultural conflicts or combine our scientific and cultural gifts to thrive into an enlightened global civilization that could ultimately expand beyond our solar system. The choice is yours, and the time to make it is now!

Jilillah and all who think islam brought science from the sky:

I can't fathom why people comnnect any religion with science. Religions in general are anti-science. Science and religion can not be put in the same cage. If you believe science then you can not believe religion. Islam or any religions had no contribution to modern science. Science believes in evolution; where as no religion can ever believe in Darwin thoery of evolution. Can anybody tell me how evolution theory and religious creation theory can co-havit together?

I am sick and tired of hearing "Islamic science" from several commentators in this thread. Do we have Hindu, Christian, Jewish science, since some people are taliking about Islamic science?

In the preface of Dr. Parvez Hoodboy's (M.I.T. educated Nuclear Physicist) book, Pakistani Nobel laureate Physicist DR. ABDUS SALAM wrote:

"There is only one universal Science; its problems and modalities are international and there is no such thing as Islamic Science just as there is no Hindu Science, nor Jewish Science, no Confucian Science, nor Christian science".

Western judeo-christian civilization can claim 90% of scientific development today. Can anybody tell me which are Christian science and which are Jewish science folks? Are the science invented by Einstein be called Jewish science and Newtonian science as Christian science? I am tired of requesting if anybody could give me a Quranic verse which contain scientific theory or any Muslim born ancient sceintist ever claimed that he/she discovered science from such and such verses or hadiths? Please read the essay on History of science and religion by SKM.

History of science and religion:

http://www.islam-watch.org/SyedKamranMirza/history_of_science_and_religion.htm

Or answer those questions I quoted from the conclusion of this great essay.

Karim (a born muslim)

Jililah,

You noted:

"Mathematics had a strong appeal to Muslims as its abstract nature furnished the bridge that Muslims were seeking between multiplicity and unity - reflecting aspects of the Creator within the manifest realm."

Hmmm, references supporting this claim/conclusion??

A better conclusion:

Recognizing the flaws in the foundations of Islam, Judaism and Christianity by the "kneelers" and "pew peasants" will quickly converge these religions into some simple rules of life. No clerics, imams, rabbis, abstract thinkers and priests needed or desired. It will be called the great "Pink Slipping" of religious leaders.

And as per James Somerville, Philosophy professor emeritus from Xavier University, Cincinnati,
"The faith of the vast majority of believers (and non-believers) depends upon where they were born and when."

It is disturbing that such violence and hatred continues unabated due to radomness of birth. Maybe just maybe if this fact would be published on the first page of every newspaper every day, that we would finally realize the significant stupidity of it all.

And as per Somerville, "There is no religion in Heaven. Religion is only the vehicle to get there. It is left at the Gate." That statement should also be published on the front page of every newspaper every day.

And then for some added non-abstract thinking and realism:

This for example: The book of death aka the koran bases its authenicity on Mo's communications with that fictional character called Gabriel who was borrowed from the Christians who borrowed "him" from the Hittites and other ancient cults. Mohammed and his scribes actually borrowed all the good elements of the ancient religions and then added their militaristic and anti-female agenda to support their moves to conquer the lands of the "infidels" where they found the Good Words originally. How ironic!!!!

And how ironic how a peaceful fictional character like Gabriel ended up giving credence to a violent religious movement called Islam!!!!

Karim, I will look at the link you have provided. I hope you, as well, will look into the book on Islamic Science that I recommended to you by Seyyed Hossein Nasr.

Historian of science, Seyyed Hossein Nasr noted the positive advantages of Islamic science in that its approach was spiritual and antisecular.

This pointed the way to a new 'Islamic science' that would avoid the dehumanizing and despiritualizing mistakes of Western science.

Nasr identified a distinctly Muslim approach to science, flowing from Islamic monotheism.

The properties and characteristics of Islamic science are concerned with the ideal, the form, which exists in matter as an expression of the will of the Creator.

Mathematics had a strong appeal to Muslims as its abstract nature furnished the bridge that Muslims were seeking between multiplicity and unity - reflecting aspects of the Creator within the manifest realm.

How Islam Influenced Science
by Macksood Aftab
Managing Editor of The Islamic Herald

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
During the Middle Ages the Islamic World had a very significant impact upon Europe, which in turn cleared the way for the Renaissance and the Scientific Revolution. In the Medieval age, Islam and Muslims influenced Europe in a number of different ways. One of the most important of these subjects was Science.
Ever since Islam was born, Muslims had made immense leaps forward in the area of Science. Cities like Baghdad, Damascus, Cairo and Cordoba were the centers of civilization. These cities were flourishing and Muslim scientists made tremendous progress in applied as well as theoretical Science and Technology. In Europe, however, the situation was much different. Europe was in the Dark Ages. It had no infrastructure or central government. To the Muslims, Europe was backward, unorganized, carried no strategic importance and was essentially irrelevant. This considering the time period was in fact true. Nevertheless the Catholic Church (which at the time was the strongest institution in Europe) successfully convinced Christian Europe that the Muslims were infidels. This caused Europeans to think that Muslims were culturally inferior to Europe and thus Europe was unable to benefit from the new scientific discoveries being made in the Islamic lands before the 1100’s. By doing this Europe kept itself in the Dark Ages while from China to Spain Islamic Civilization prospered. During the Crusades there was limited contact between Muslims and Christians and not much was transferred. As A. Lewis explains, "The Crusaders were men of action, not men of learning". The real exchange of ideas which led to the Scientific revolution and to the renaissance occurred in Muslim Spain.

Cordoba was the capital of Muslim Spain. It soon became the center for all light and learning for the entire Europe. Scholars and students from various parts of the world and Europe came to Cordoba to study. The contrast in intellectual activity is demonstrated best by one example: ‘In the ninth century, the library of the monastery of St. Gall was the largest in Europe. It boasted 36 volumes. At the same time, that of Cordoba contained over 500,000!’.

The idea of the college was a concept which was borrowed from Muslims. The first colleges appeared in the Muslim world in the late 600's and early 700's. In Europe, some of the earliest colleges are those under the University of Paris and Oxford they were founded around the thirteenth century. These early European colleges were also funded by trusts similar to the Islamic ones and legal historians have traced them back to the Islamic system. The internal organization of these European colleges was strikingly similar to the Islamic ones, for example the idea of Graduate (Sahib) and undergraduate (mutafaqqih) is derived directly from Islamic terms.

In the field of Mathematics the number Zero (0) and the decimal system was introduced to Europe, which became the basis for the Scientific revolution. The Arabic numerals were also transferred to Europe, this made mathematical tasks much easier, problems that took days to solve could now be solved in minutes. The works of Al-Khwarizmi (Alghorismus) were translated into Latin. Alghorismus, from whom the mathematical term algorism was derived, wrote Sindhind, a compilation of astronomical tables. He, more importantly, laid the ground work for algebra and found methods to deal with complex mathematical problems, such as square roots and complex fractions. He conducted numerous experiments, measured the height of the earth's atmosphere and discovered the principle of the magnifying lens. Many of his books were translated into European languages. Trigonometric work by Alkirmani of Toledo was translated into Latin (from which we get the sine and cosine functions) along with the Greek knowledge of Geometry by Euclid. Along with mathematics, masses of other knowledge in the field of physical science was transferred.

Islamic contributions to Science were now rapidly being translated and transferred from Spain to the rest of Europe. Ibnul Hairham’s works on Optics, (in which he deals with 50 Optical questions put to Muslim Scholars by the Franks), was translated widely. The Muslims discovered the Principle of Pendulum, which was used to measure time. Many of the principles of Isaac Newton were derived from former Islamic scientific contributions. In the field of Chemistry numerous Islamic works were translated into Latin. One of the fields of study in this area was alchemy. The Muslims by exploring various elements, developed a good understanding of the constitution of matter. Jabir ibn-Hayyan (Geber) was the leading chemist in the Muslim world, some scholars link the introduction of the ‘scientific method’ back to him. A great number of terms used in Chemistry such as alchohol, alembic, alkali and elixir are of Islamic origin.

Medicine was a key science explored by Muslims. Al-Rhazes is one of the most famous Doctors and writers of Islamic History. Every major city had an hospital, the hospital at Cairo had over 8000 beds, with separate wards for fevers, ophthalmic, dysentery and surgical cases. He discovered the origin of smallpox and showed that one could only acquire it once in one's life, thus showing the existence of the immune system and how it worked. Muslim doctors were also aware of the contagious qualities of diseases. Hundreds of medical works were translated into Latin.

All of this knowledge transferred from the Muslims to the Europeans was the vital raw material for the Scientific Revolution. Muslims not only passed on Greek classical works but also introduced new scientific theories, without which the European Renaissance could not have occurred. Thus even though many of the Islamic contributions go unacknowledged, they played an integral role in the European transformation.

To Jililah and other Islamists:

You are missing most important point. Science and religion do not mix together like oil does not mix with water. Religion Islam has nothing to give for science; just as any other religion. Western Judeo-christian civilization established modern science and they get 98% credit. But Christianity or judeism got no credit for this. Simply because, religions did not help discover any science; rather religions were hindrance or obstackle to scientific development and religion still is a dangerous obstackle. No religion other than islam wants credit for science and that is because of Morice bucaillee's hypocrisy. You can not show anything in Koran which can be use as the theory of any science. Islam and ratinality do not go hand in hand. Islam does not permit any rational thinking.You can not be rational and at the same time pure muslim, period. Because, islam is pure dictorship by nature.

Bottomline is: The less religious orthodoxy, the more achievement in science. That explains Muslim's relative advancement around tenth century (less orthodoxy) and Christian Europe's backwardness (more orthodoxy).

That is why during early islam there was nothing called science or any education at all.It was only during not so good muslim kings (Abbasid and Ummayed) rational minds allowed flourishing science with the help of some rational people mostly non-Arab and many non-muslims tried to preserve and develop existing science left by various ancient civilization. Any civilization when it is stabilized can develop some good thing for mankind. Arab civilization contributed that during 9-11 centuries.

Again, when Islamists like Imam Gazzali prohibited and prosecuted many muslim born secular scientists, muslim world gone back to darkness again.

Now let me put some very prudent questions: (a) If the Islamists still consider that Arab got the ancient science from Qur'an or Hadiths, then would it not be normal that those Islamic Mullahs would discover the science first? (b) Would it not be normal to expect the revolution of science coming first from all those Maulanas, Qaari, Imams, Muftis, teachers of all Madrashas, all Madrassah students, all Talibans-simply because these are the people who are really expert in Qur'an and Hadiths? (c) If Islamic Arab civilization derived scientific knowledge from the religion (Qur'an and Hadiths) and they brought some science to the West, then after that, what made those Muslims totally burned out and become obsolete in the field of science today? (d) Should it not be a normal phenomenon that, in today's modern scientific race, Muslims would still lead the rest of the world? (e) Since some apologists believe religion has no quarrel with science-could we ask all Islamic Mullahs to declare Darwin Evolution Theory is acceptable to Islamic theologians? (f) Could any Islamist tell us what are the reasons that none of the Muslim nations come even close to other advanced nations in the field of science?

Now please read this article below:

History of science and religion:
http://www.islam-watch.org/SyedKamranMirza/history_of_science_and_religion.htm

Thanks.

Karim (a born muslim)

The topic is about Muslim violence. This is directly related to the flaws in the foundations of Islam and its book of death which bases its authenicity on Mo's communications with that fictional character called Gabriel who was borrowed from the Christians who borrowed "him" from the Hittites and other ancient religions.

Ironic how a peaceful fictional character ended up giving credence to a violent religious movement!!!!!

Dear Mathe

I feel quite certain that if you informed T.O. Shanavas of the error you found that he would wish to correct it before a paperback edition is released. Why not write and explain. I am happy to hear that you enjoyed his book as did I.

Dear HALOZCEL -

The civilization of ancient Egypt is a wonder to behold and ofcourse there was then no Islam. I am an admirer of all great civilizations

You are absolutely right in pointing out Islam's current stagnancy and reversal. Islamic civilization began to decline around the 12th
century and the great debate between Ibn Rush'd and Ghazzali was the beginning of that decline as the Muslim orthodoxy supported Ghazzali rather than Ibn Rush'd, the rationalist. A strong anti-rationalist movement arose leading to stagnancy in Islam and the rest is history.

Now, we must reawaken the creative impulse and make Muslims aware that the human rights mandates are within the Qur'an but have not been put in practice. We must now seek to put them into practice.

I agree with you that the anti-rationalist school of Islam that dominated the Middle East was a detriment to advancement. But one must not overlook the 9-12th centuries when science & philosophy flourished and yes - it was within an Islamic context, not a secular context.

Truly though, debating this is not where our focus needs to be right now. What does it matter anyway about the life particulars of the creative soul? Can not all of humanity celebrate the wonder of creative thought and partake of its fruits without obsessing over the race, nationality or religion of the inventor?
I would not have even entered this argument with you pointing out beneficial Islamic influences had you not implied incorrectly that they were all secular. Let's move on to solutions rather then debating the past.

I will always look to the day that we are all simply referred to as humankind.

Back on the topic:

Read the koran and see the militaristic/violent and anti-female/anti-infidel passages. Read history and see the flaws in the authors/foundations of said book. Read the daily news and see the results.

Mathe and Jililah,

And,what about after 200 years from birth of islam(backwardness)?
What happened,what happened that present egyptian fell behind the egyptian who had lived 5000 years ago ?
What happened that Iran,Iraq,Syria where were the cradle of civilization went back to Stone Age ?
No,no,you are wrong.Islam(cult of violence) killed the 'civilization' in Middle East.

Jililah:
I agree with you that "Creation And/or Evolution An Islamic Perspective" by T.O.Shanavas is an excellet book. There are occasional mistake that he made because he is not a biologist. If it is pointed out to him he will correct it. It must not be unintentional. He appears to be well read and knowledgable. I think that anybody who is interested in the Theory of Evolution and religion must read the book.

I hope Karim give references for his statement that Muslim scientists were secular people. What is his definition of "secular."

I ask Karim, If Koran and Islam did not contribute to science, How come science bloomed among Arabs in 200 years only after birth of Islam. Arabs were illiterate and with no knowledge of science before Islam.

KARIM, KARIM

HOW wrong you are. It isn't really fair for you to ask me to do your homework for you. First read Tahafut al-Tahafut by Ibn Rush'd. Qur'an and Islam is central to his argument against Ghazzali and I agree that Muslims would have been far better off by following the rationalist Ibn Rush'd over Ghazzali, but as we cannot change history, we can advocate for the need to focus on rationalism and human rights NOW!

You want examples - if you read the writings of those scientists, you will find Qur'anic wisdom permeates their mindset and is frequently referenced. But even though I shouldn't do your research for you as this is your hang-up and not mine and in truth has little to do with what we need to accomplish right NOW, I'll give a few examples:

1) "Divinely ordained commands are essential for man's well-being. Neither the practical arts nor the theoretical virtues are possible without the moral virtues which cannot become ingrained in the soul without knowledge of Allah (SWT) and glorifying him by means of certain ritual observances. It is the mark of the perfectly just man to exercise his virtue in himself as well as with others."
Ibn Rush'd (Averroes) Tahafut Al-Tahafut 581-3

Note: I personally don't agree that one must be religious to be moral, but otherwise the rationality that Ibn Rush'd promoted without doubt advanced great Western thinkers that followed. There is even a philosophical movement of thought named for him.

2) "In every seeking soul there is a portion, be it small or great, of the light of Allah (God). Every one who strives has intuition, be it perfect or imperfect. Knowledge did not end with one people, so that the doors of heaven are shut behind them and the rest of the world is denied the possibility of obtaining more. Rather, the Giver of Knowledge, who stands on the "clear horizon, is not stingy with the unseen" (Qur'an 81:23-24). The most evil age is one in which the carpet of striving has been rolled up, in which the movement of thought is interrupted, the door of inspiration bolted, and the path of visions blocked."
Suhrawardi: Hikmat al-Ishraq -pg 1

3) The soul is simple and of a perfect and noble nature. Its essence derives from the essence of the Creator, just as sunshine is derived from the sun. A purified soul is capable of reflecting upon the hidden mysteries of the universe. The very essence of the soul's true actions is moderation (i'tidal) which is derived from the golden mean ('adl). When the soul attains the utmost degree of purity, it gains the light and mercy of Allah (SWT), and will partake of an eternal bliss superior to all pleasures derived from food, drink, cohabitation, hearing, sight, smell and touch. The pleasures of the soul are divine, spiritual and heavenly such that lead to the utmost nobility."
Al-Kindi, Rasail 1:273-7

Karim - you call them secular? READ, READ, READ and learn.

Dear Concerned

Your focus on literalism is limiting your perspectives and no matter how hard I try, I cannot seems to make you realize that the importance is a 'telling' that inspires one to benevolent action. When a 'telling' inspires one to unhealthy violence, then some reinterpretation is in order as a destructive force of any nature is a challenge. We must strive to transform destructive forces into constructive forces - at least that is MY LIMITED PERSPECTIVE of our collective aim. The level of reality associated with the 'telling' is inconsequential. One's reality is largely made up of the concepts one projects and often these projections are only real and meaningful to the one who is doing the projecting. The notion of an angel can be taken literally as a winged thing as you prefer or be interpreted as an unmanifest force, whether of inspiration or something else. Have you never been so relaxed that ideas seem to just fall into your head? Many great imaginative and artistic individuals have such experiences. Some of Einstein's concepts came not from methodical logic but from dreams or that strange ineffable force of inspiration where a completed idea appears to just fall into your mind. Our perceptions and preconceptions so greatly blind us, that the majority of what each of us perceives is distorted to fit into what ever ordering system we have chosen to organize our data with. Whether forces we struggle to understand are named angel, fairy, muse, the motion of molecules, gravity, mind, inspiration or whatever is humankind's way of ordering the unmamifest forces that are part of our existential field but defy neat and tidy understandings - so we NAME them. Don't get hung up on the naming. Words are often imperfect containers of abstract notions. Even the names that scientists give to such phenomenon are imperfect or limited descriptions of the full capability or reality of the an unmanifest enigma.

Dear CONCERNED

Ijtihad leading to a modern and humanitarian-focused reinterpretation of sacred text is all about bringing Islam into the 21st century and unveiling its wonderful positive potential.

The human rights model of Islam proposed in Dr. Mansoor Alam's article (posted previously) is Qur'anically valid and could provide the necessary REFOCUSING on a HUMANITARIAN ISLAM that will eventually solve the problems of the Imams distorting & corrupting the minds of impressionable Muslims. This priesthood of Imams was not indigenous to the original Islam and this distortion of Islam has been a force of corruption that placed politically aggressive aims above the focus of spiritual development and honor for the sanctity of all life that is so essential to the Meccan framework of verses describing that which is innate to Islam.

We are making more progress than you may have presumed!

To Jillilah:

You again wasting your time unnecessarily. I said all those scientific progress (to the existing science left by other civilizations) by some secular Muslim born mostly non-Arabs and some Arabs had nothing to give any credit to real islam (Koran and Hadiths). That is, they progressed with science without islam and not by islam.

If you disagree then show me where in Koran you got scientific theory that was used by those Muslim-born secular ancient scientists. Real Islam established by Imam Gazzali actually destroyed the scientific cell generated at that time and brought them back to pure Islam (darkness of 7th century) and discard all achievements to Europeans. Do you get my point? Where did you find any scientific progress during the time of Prophet Muhammad and his four rightly guided Khulafye-rashedins? What science they generated out of islam heh? So don't try to mislead ignarant fanatic muslims so that they will continue suicide bombings only to eastablish puritanical pure islam and keep muslims in the 7th century darkness, please.

Karim (a born-muslim)

Dear Tufail

You are an exciting example of a truly open-mind. That's inspiring!

Thank you for such quality posts requiring your time and research.

Now - you sound like an individual who might appreciate a scientically exciting book I have.
Actually - everyone would do well to read it.

Creation And/OR Evolution: An Islamic Perspective
by Dr. T.O. Shanavas

It's pro-Theory of Evolution and anti-pseudo-science. It is written by a brilliant rationalist who is also a man of faith. YES - ONE CAN BE BOTH AS YOU WELL KNOW!

Check out that book - it's awesome. ;>)

Will wonders never cease - Masha'Allah!

SCience & Islam:

All of us must remember a saying that I do not know who said it: "We are standing on the shoulders of gaints that so that we can see more and far."

Muslims, west or anyone can take all the credit for the progress of science. We all borrowed ealier giants and improved on it. Similarly, Muslims also contributed for the science. See what western historians state:

America Historian, Will Durant states:
“Muhammed, unlike most religious reformers, admired and urged the pursuit of knowledge: ‘He who leaves his home in search of knowledge walks in the in the path of God…and the ink of the scholar is holier than the blood of a martyr.” [Ref: “The Story of Civilization” by Will Durant. New York: Simon and Schuster, 1950, Vol. 4. page 235].

British historian J.Bronowski states:
Muhammad had been firm that Islam was not to be a religion of miracles; it became in intellectual content a pattern of contemplation and analysis. [Ref: Brownoski. J. The Ascend of Man. London, U.K: The British Broadcasting Corporation, 1981. p. 166.]

British historian Robert Briffault states:
“It was under the influence of the Arabian and Moorish revival of culture, and not in the fifteenth century, that the real Renaissance took place. Spain, not Italy, was the cradle of the rebirth of Europe…It is highly probable that but for the Arabs modern European civilization would never have been arisen at all…The debt of our science to that of the Arabs does not consist in startling discoveries or revolutionary theories; science owes a great deal more to the Arab culture, it owes its existence.” [Robert
Briffault: “The Making of Humanity.” London 1919. Page 188-191]

George Sarton, Professor of History of Science at Harvard University, states:
“Briefest enumeration of the Arabic contributions to knowledge would be too long to be inserted here…The creation of a new civilization of international and encyclopaedic magnitude within less than two centuries is something that we describe, but cannot explain…Indeed the superiority of Muslim culture, say in the eleventh century, was so great that we can understand their intellectual pride. It is easy to imagine their doctors speaking of western barbarians almost in the same spirit as ours do of the ‘Orientals.’ If there had been some ferocious eugenists among the Moslems they might have suggested some means breeding out all the western Christians and Greeks because of their hopeless backwardness. At that time Muslim pride would have been more conceivable because they almost reached their climax, and pride is never as great as when the fall is near. On the contrary only a few Christians were then aware of their inferiority; that awareness did not come upon them until much later—by the middle of thirteenth century.” [Ref: George Sarton: “The History of Science and The New Humanism.” New York. 1956. Page 87-90]

Professor Draper of University of New York and author of “Civil Policy of America” As well as “American Civil War” states:
“In what I have thus said respecting a work held by so many million of men as revelation from God, I have endeavored to speak with respect, and yet with freedom, constantly bearing in mind how deeply to this book (i.e., the Koran] Asia and Africa are indebted for daily guidance, how deeply Europe and America for the light of science.” [REF: John W. Draper: “History of Intellectual Development of Europe.” Vol II. Page 345.]

Historian Harry Elmer Barnes states:
Christian historians have frequently pointed out that Latin civilization of the West in the thirteenth and fourteenth centuries reached about as high a level as Muslim culture. This may be true, but it must not be overlooked that this remarkable renaissance was owing in large part to Muslim information and stimulation.” [Ref: “An Intellectual and Cultural History of the Western World.” By Harry Elmer Barnes. Page. 403.]

Jililah,
Are U out of your mind? Apparently you are new on On Faith, otherwise you would not waste your time on sterile "deabting" with Cncnd the delinquent.Every body around here know he recycles the same BS over and over again-I wounder why does not the WP block him.

Jililah,

You noted:

"We can do better than that."

Indeed you can being of the realistic 21st century!!!!!!!

That said, help rewrite the koran by removing its militarisitic and anti-female passages and by eliminating any references to fortune telling and "thingie" visitations.

Without that, the Islamic clerics and imans will continue using the present koran as their SOP for killing infidels and degrading females.

CONCERNED wrote:

Again it is all about the flaws in contemporary religion. Being a Muslim as per the koran, you cannot escape Islam with risking your life. Being a Muslim you cannot criticize the "prophit" or his book of death without risking your life. If you ever get the chance however, below are some helpful starting points. The Jihadist could help but she also has significant restrictions living in the "almost" Islamic state of Malaysia.

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Dear Concerned -The Christian Now Liberated:

If I was concerned about losing my life, The Brotherhood would have succeeded already in shutting me up.

Do I sound quiet to you?

I thought we already clarified my position in regard to the challenges you propose to another belief or 'ordering system.' Your challenges don't erode a system that for me provides inspiration (remember Cinderella?) no matter how disturbing you find my choice. Life contains great mysteries and THAT is exciting. When