Obama's Overtures to Islam

Another comment. Religionists have one thing going for them: everyone can participate in religion. You can pray, go to church, read your Holy Book, etc. It can be something you do only on weekends, or it can encompass your entire life.

The problem with secularism is that it's built on science and reason - intellectualism, in other words. In our culture, intellectual pursuits have long since become specialist pursuits, requiring years of training, degrees, acceptance by similarly trained peers, and lots and lots of funding. The days are gone when enthusiastic amateurs could make genuine contributions to our fund of knowledge. Now, like Catholic priests in the Middle Ages, our specialists engage in the actual Mysteries while the rest of us watch in awe and wait to receive the promised blessings. Enthusiastic amateurs are reduced to the status of fans of science, not participants in science. They can read Richard Dawkins' latest book and incorporate his ideas into their own mental library, but they'll never do the actual work that Richard Dawkins does.

I think this is one reason why many people prefer religion. It offers a community in which anyone can participate and plenty of work - spiritual, charitable or otherwise - that anyone can do. Its ideas are accessible and can be applied easily to daily life. And its experts are there to help and encourage the regular folks, not to exclude them. It may not be rigorous and it may not yield a lot of interesting and useful facts about the world, but it answers human needs in a way current science does not.

No, the U.S. is not a Christian nation at war with Islam. It is a modern, progressive nation in conflict with a backward medieval culture. The countries in which Islam has taken hold have one foot in the 21st century and the other in the 7th century. They expect to take advantage of all the benefits of the modern world while clinging to social, political and cultural patterns that are completely inimical to progress. Until they loosen up - that is, until they cease making their religion and their Holy Book the center of their existence and learn to see the world through scientist's eyes - they will never have the intellectual and cultural flexibility required to advance. They will always be outsiders, forced to beg, borrow or steal from the modern world what they cannot create for themselves.

Our country, on the other hand, has taken progress too far. We've placed economic growth before everything, and our society and the environment are paying the price. In the name of intellectual progress, we systematically destroy every long-standing cultural institution or tradition that identifies us as Americans. The only aspects of our culture not under attack are the ephemeral, disposable ones - things that used to be called "fads" or "fashions" are now treated as subjects of deep meaning and fascination, while anything with any true depth is labelled "oppressive" and promptly deconstructed. As a culture systematically destroying its own roots, our survival is at greater risk than that of the Muslims. That doesn't mean we need to become a religious nation in order to survive. We need an identity, a group feeling, a sense of mission - a reason for existing other than producing and consuming and "spreading democracy." Otherwise, the next real storm will blow us away while the Muslims, grimly clinging to their backward culture, will be left alive and in charge.

TTWSYFAMDGGAHJMJ2

"Obama is attempting man's freedom of belief by forcing people to go against their religious belief and conscience and perform abortions

Though the Founding Fathers (F/F) based the Constitution on the Christian principles"

Please supply the name, address and, if possible, office phone number of any person in the US who has been forced, against his will, to perform an abortion.

Likewise, please list the "Christian" principles upon which the Constitution was based by the founding fathers.

TTWSYFAMDGGAHJMJ2 :“Governments that separate themselves from God do not rely on God’s laws; they rely on man’s laws. Hence, the Secularist makes law irrespective of God and God becomes irrelevant”

No. The secularist makes laws based on the needs of society. Some are similar to, or the same as ‘god’s laws’ murder, theft, etc. Secularist laws establish order spanning across religious beliefs and regardless of religious beliefs. This is because not all people in that society share those religious beliefs.
The Bible does not address speed limits, for example. Secular law establishes these for all people. It isn’t about god, it has nothing to do with god, it has to do with safety on the highways. And though it is a secular law, it hardly makes god irrelevant.
“More so, Obama is attempting man's freedom of belief by forcing people to go against their religious belief and conscience and perform abortions”
Who is being forced to perform abortions?

“Though the Founding Fathers (F/F) based the Constitution on the Christian principles”
You have yet to explain the Christian principles on which the constitution is based.

“Henceforth, traditional morality is void as a basis of Civil Law when it is basically the purpose of all Civil Law”
Once again you’re using the phrase ‘traditional morality’ as if it has a specific, universal meaning. I reject that assumption, again, until you can make your case for it.

“The Court violated the Natural Moral Law (NML) and God’s Natural Law (NL) from which the NML receives its authority as does the Court”
Once again you are using terms that are meaningless to this discussion. The constitution itself describes the mechanisms and limitations for creating laws. It is not subject to the mandates or limitations of either NML or NL.
“The Court has no more authority to redefine human nature than it has to repeal the law of gravity because it is UnConstutional.”
Another ignorant rant. The court does not define human nature, it judges legality, period.

“Religion, the true religion, founded by Jesus sets the standards for all societies”
Not according to the constitution, anyone’s constitution.

“Consequently, the Court placed man’s authority over God’s authority”
Uh no. The court does not pretend to manage god’s laws. They only deal with laws made of the people, by the people and for the people. God is responsible for his own laws.

“and subsequently diminished the freedom of religion” By NOT forcing the laws of one specific religion to be levied against ALL PEOPLE, they diminish the freedom of religion? Where do you get this stuff? The laws of this nation have nothing to do with god’s laws, they do not try to. You are free to live your life by whatever religious creed you desire. You have the right to NOT be forced to adhere to the laws of other religions. THAT is freedom of religion.

You are asking the NATION to do for you that which YOU have failed to do. You have failed to witness to the people of this nation, and many other nations. You have failed Jesus by not carrying out the great commission. It is not the responsibility of the NATION to bring people to Christ, that is YOUR job. Don’t blame the nation for your own failures.
If you wish to live a Christian life, then that is your right, you are perfectly free to do so. You do NOT get to use the secular legal mechanisms in this society to force others to adhere to your particular religions’ codes of conduct, that is unless you are open to having other religions' laws forced upon you.

IN REPLY TO (IRT)
GLADERUNNER:
“SECULARISM”

IRT:
"There is so much wrong with your post that I scarcely know where to begin. If I leave something out do not assume that it is because I agree with it."

[Secularism does not protect religion it destroys religion]”

IRT:
“No it does not. It only restricts it within state venues. There is nothing whatsoever in this nation that blocks any individual from being a part of any religion to the degree they desire.

It simply says that this Nation’s laws and religious laws are two separate things and that one should not dictate adherence to the other. This nation does not establish one religion as being truer than another. It can only do this by staying out of the debate.”

ANS:
Governments that separate themselves from God do not rely on God’s laws; they rely on man’s laws. Hence, the Secularist makes law irrespective of God and God becomes irrelevant.

Man is a social being and the laws that affect his society affect the man who believes in them. More so, Obama is attempting man's freedom of belief by forcing people to go against their religious belief and conscience and perform abortions

Though the Founding Fathers (F/F) based the Constitution on the Christian principles that man has been endowed by certain inalienable rights by God, the Court in “Lawrence v. Texas,” ruled that traditional morality serves no legitimate purpose to the State. Henceforth, traditional morality is void as a basis of Civil Law when it is basically the purpose of all Civil Law.

Moreover, the Court took the inviolable Right to Life and made it violable, viz. a matter of the Court’s opinion, not God's. Because of the atrocity of “Roe v. Wade,” over 50 million innocent unborn have died. They had no choice of religion The Court violated the Natural Moral Law (NML) and God’s Natural Law (NL) from which the NML receives its authority as does the Court.

More so, the Court violated the Constitution by rendering moot Amendment IV that man “be secure in his own person.” To avoid the direct contradiction of Amendment IV, the Court facetiously and arbitrarily redefined humanity, usurping the authority belonging only to the domain of God's authority.

The Court has no more authority to redefine human nature than it has to repeal the law of gravity because it is UnConstutional.

Not only was the IV Amendment and the NL violated, the Court violated Amendment V, viz. that man not be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law.

Further, the Court, in addition, violated the IX Amendment that says, “The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.” One of those rights is that “All men are created equal endowed with certain inalienable rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.” The aborted unborn were denied those rights.

Consequently, the 14th Amendment of equal protection under the law was also violated.

Now these principles are all the dictates of our Judeo-Christian heritage. They are no longer protected but violated by the State because a Court now depends on Secularism that has denounced tradition morality and ergo God.

Consequently, the Court placed man’s authority over God’s authority, and subsequently diminished the freedom of religion, a precept of Amendment I.

Religion, the true religion, founded by Jesus sets the standards for all societies. Christianity continues and advances the Jewish faith from which its origin began.

In addition, Christianity substantiates the social order in order that society might survive and flourish. Those nations that have chosen to be Secular have and are becoming social failures, because they have abandoned the Way, the Truth, and the Life who watches over and protects man in his destiny for which man was created.

“The wise person will) be more than human. A man will not live like that by virtue of his humanness, but by virtue of some divine thing within him.

His activity is as superior to the activity of the other virtues as this divine thing is to his composite character. Now if mind is divine in comparison with man, the life of the mind is divine in comparison with mere human life.

We should not follow popular advice and, being human, have only mortal thoughts, but should become immortal and do everything toward living the best in us. (NE 10.7)--Aristotle

In other words, the thinker is not only the 'best' person, but is also most like God."

Back to the topic--

Again: The Bottom line:

Muslims demonize themselves via the history of Islam as seen in their founder, an illiterate, hallucinating, warmongering, greedy and lust-filled, long-dead Arab. As long as the Worst Book Ever Written ,aka the koran, is the operating manual of Islam, Muslims of any stripe cannot be trusted.

And considering the extensive bearing of false witness on this blog by one Farnaz Masumian aka Spark1 aka Stadtbear aka Observer12 aka Observer31 aka Yael1 aka ivri5678 aka Billy8 aka nadinebatra aka ????, one could make the same case about members of the Baha'i "faith"!!!

(BTW, St. Francis did not write the Peace Prayer of Saint Francis)

http://www.recoverytimes.com/stfrancis.html

Paganplace,

That's ok. Both of us have an uphill battle. The difference is that you get beat up, and I don't. And that is where the horror lies, and that is why I feel so damned guilty. People from my belief have and are making your life difficult, and that hatred, prejudice, and rejection of the core of my belief dismays me. And, on the other hand, I cannot imagine a Pagan that would do that to me.... I am learning from my Pagan friends. Why cannot others? Is is that so bloody damned hard?

I know you mean well, Arminius.

I'd prefer not to elaborate,right now.

Paganplace, friend,

I realize full well the horrific torment you have suffered from those who dare to call themselves 'Christian'.

Please let me share with you two prayers, both of which have been prayed in my church, and both of which show the true spirit of the message of Jesus, which, ah! so sadly, has escaped too many of us:

A Prayer of St Francis

Lord, make me an instrument of Thy peace;
Where there is hatred, let me sow love;
Where there is injury, pardon;
Where there is doubt, faith;
Where there is despair, hope;
Where there is darkness, light;
And where there is sadness, joy.

O Divine Master,
Grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console;
To be understood, as to understand;
To be loved, as to love;
For it is in giving that we receive,
It is in pardoning that we are pardoned,
And it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.
Amen.

A Celtic Prayer for Deep Peace

This day and this night may we know, O God,
The deep peace of the running wave,
The deep peace of the flowing air,
The deep peace of the quiet earth,
The deep peace of the shining stars,
To renew our souls in sleep;
To enlighten our dreams in the night,
To open our Spirits to eternity,
The deep peace of the Son of Peace.
Amen.

And it's really the thing with Christians: they're always like, 'You reject Jesus, you must be evil, thus exempt from human treatment! Even if it 's just cause we have this thing about gays.'

Most folks *really like* one version of Jesus or another. It's the *world* that people buy along with that that causes all the suffering.

I mean, someone had to *really* sell the idea of etenal damnation before you even *needed* a savior. How they convinced Gaels it was better to gaybash than fight demons, I dunno, but this is the '*world* to some.

A wrld which says you're mighty if you queerbash, or maybe 'tolerate' someone like me.

It doesn't make any *sense.*

Who taught you that there was a Hell, and that only one person could go extract people from it?

Who taught you the world's about a 'judge' agreeing with your interpretations?

Saing you're helpless while others scream, and trying to teach you to take pleasure in that and call it 'good?'

Is that 'salvation?

Or just feeling safe?

You're better than this, kinsmen.

And if you've done Pagan hearts and souls any good in your time, heed that, brothers.

Our turn.

I mean, I hope you understand this, my Christian friends,... It's not your Jesus anyone has a problem with.

It's your *world.*

It's a world of pain, fear, and torture that some have exploited life upon life and told you to *like* it.

There's good in you. Good I daresay we *need.*

But it's not the whole world. Never mind some excuse to set the stage with horrors to *make* Christians seem needed.

It's simpler. It's quieter. It's more human than that. Call me some kind of whatever if you must, but know this. You may have a good patron demigod, but you do *not* have to accept the world some say comes with him.

I don't think that son-of-a-God, if he's really so noble, really wants the adulation. I think he *wanted* to be a lesson in kindness, goodness, and justice. And by Connor mac Nessa's skull, that part is now accomplished.

All this nonsense, this is not about Jesus, this is about trying to make people think the world is *scary enough* to *command* people based on Jesus.

I say, there's enough to be scared of without making stuff up.

I've had the crap kicked out of me so many times, 'righteously,' friends, that sometimes I just wanna go home.

But I'll tell you *this*. I'm *not* scared stupid. Certainly, old Gods I didn't know of helped me through. asking nothing, while Jesus people were... well, doing what we see here.

I have lived to tell you are better than that. Don't get cocky with your labels.

But. Thomas.

Understand this:

"Sometimes, by some of the things that I read on these different postings, it seems that there are some that have thrown away their "Christian" religion of whatever persausion and have become more "Christian" in the true sense than some others that squeeze their "Christian" religion of whatever persuasion so tightly that they squeeze God right out of it."

In my case, I never thought I'd have *anything* to do with clashes of world religions... Only that the same words you say in some kind of hopefully-love, were used as weapons to try and crush my spirit, ...iin fact try and shape my native wit into a wepon against the freedom of others. All in the name of a 'God' in whose name I was supposed to suffer, and watch others suffer, and make others obey.

For whatever reason, older Gods, older faces, older names, carried *me* through a number of places few would want to be, asking nothing, offering only... the next day.

And as good a person I am, it's as a Pagan person. Not a sheep hit too hard and upon whom too many 'holy mens' penances were exacted.

Where I had to watch and not speak out.

Your book and your churches and your words and most especially your corsses used to silence so many people, and me.... Will never be what you wish them to be. They are things I did not defy enough, things I did not deny *enough* ...things I did no make enough noise about, cause foolish child as I was, I let some whole lot of people convinve me the whole *world* was in on the abuse.

It'snot holy to me, all that.

I'm just *Catholic enough* to feel unworthy of the older Gods who saw me thorugh a world like that.

Said there was actually a poitnt to goodness and honor when fair was foul and foul was fair.

Also said you are not the enemies you crack yourselves up to be, Christians.

There is more than war and authority.

And words.

Ask *your* Lady.

And shh.

Paganplace -
"Hahaha! I just gave all the maniacal abusive guy-trolls plaguing 'Women on Faith' girl cooties."

WTF??? Yer starting to worry me!

Hahaha! I just gave all the maniacal abusive guy-trolls plaguing 'Women on Faith' girl cooties.

That'll learn em. :)

Hi, Christian friends. Funny ol' world, ennit? :)

Hi, Thomas,

I also enjoy talking with you, and with Paganplace.

All too true, sadly, that so many 'Christians' have shut out God in favor of their addiction to power and their own take on what rules to obey. They have rejected the Gospels, in my opinion, and they have rejected their fellow man. I seem to recall that Jesus included everyone in his message.

You, in contrast to those people, are one who 'walks the walk', even in your posts. I respect that.

ARMINIUS

I have never met you or Paganplace personally but I do enjoy speaking to both of you. Hope you are doing well.

Sometimes, by some of the things that I read on these different postings, it seems that there are some that have thrown away their "Christian" religion of whatever persausion and have become more "Christian" in the true sense than some others that squeeze their "Christian" religion of whatever persuasion so tightly that they squeeze God right out of it.

When I write on these sites, even when I address it to one person, I intend it for the whole world.

Sometimes, words, in and of themselves, can be a very inadequate form of communication.

There is an interesting thing written in the bible, "Remember I (God) have chosen you, you have not chosen Me", it came as quite a shock and I have said YES.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Hey, Paganplace! Good to hear from you.

Thomas Baum is an old friend. Yes, he comes across as somewhat bizarre. There are things to remember about him, though(note, this is from my Christian perspective!):
1. He has the message of Jesus down perfect: Love.
2. Also he is right, God IS love.
3. Thomas follows Jesus, not a church.
4. Thomas accepts everyone.
5. Thomas knows full well that faith is a journey, not a destination.

Note that I do not agree with Thomas on all subjects.

Here's my take on the afterlife, if there is one. If I live decently, and, for that matter, if anyone lives decently, regardless of faith or lack of it, the afterlife, whatever it is, will take care of itself. I refuse to worry about crap like 'rapture' and armageddon. The message of Christianity is in the Gospels, and ONLY in the Gospels. The rest is either commentary, interpretation, backup, history, advice, mythology, or nonsense.

PAGANPLACE

You wrote, " Yes, I'm a secularist. I want to get that cross *out* of government cause I want *you* to have it."

Don't worry, I have it and it is mine to carry, not the government's.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

PAGANPLACE

If we go with the definition of secularism as the seperation of church and state and the state neither forcing, in any way, shape or form, a faith or belief on someone or forcing, in any way, shape or form, to not have a faith or belief on someone that respects others then I would say that God is a secularist, in giving us free will, most definitely God-Incarnate was and He said as much.

In giving us free will, God does not force Himself on us and we have no right to force ourselves on others and if anyone believes that Jesus is God-Incarnate and tries to force their faith, beliefs or religious practices on others, then they do not have a clue at what Jesus taught.

Granted, there are some things that have to be agreed upon to at least have some sort of semblance of civility in the world and I would think that at least some would have to agree with that, but after a point it becomes nothing more than a power play, so to speak.

I happen to think and believe that this definition of "secularist" you take to heart, am I right to think and believe this?

But there do seem to be many that call themselves "secularists" that actually aren't, wouldn't you agree?

In my opinion, being a "Christian" is to be a "secularist" because being a "Christian" is that person trying to follow Jesus, not trying to cram something down other people's throats.

As I have said before, "God is a searcher of hearts and minds, not of religious affiliations or lack thereof" and in this statement, I point out that calling oneself a "Christian" does not make one a "Christian" and also there are those that are more "Christian" in the true sense of the word that don't even believe in God.

As I have also said, "It is important what one does and why one does and what one knows".

I know that I seem to repeat myself but the simple fact is, that it is simple but to actually live it can be hard.

I wish you well but if anyone actually looks around at the world, it is a mess but all one can do is try to do the best that they can or do what they have been called and/or chosen to do.

See you and the rest of humanity in the Kingdom.

Thanks for responding to my reply.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Hi, Arminius. :) Saw you a week or so back, but the login thingies were broken. :)

You've met Thomas, right? He says some kooky stuff now and again, and I think at times he's scared of his faith not translating into anything authoritative, but he does get better. I think there could be some actual Christianity in there.

Probably gets spooked once in a while. Lady knows I would. Could be he knows that's not the point. (And I do like to believe there is one for the book-people. Unlike them, I don't have any reason to figure you only get one life to obey or die horribly forever...)

That's *got* to mess with your head. Also I think, revealing that what they fear most is that the process of dying could be the entire future of their one personality.

Bad parenting and management, I'm sure.

There's really nothing transcendent about presuming that painful death stretches out past eternity without obeying some rote morality.

No faith or courage there, just fear.

That's why they fear a *different* authoritative book, or the idea one could exist.

I think it's stupid, Arminius, .. from the point your Jesus was trying to teach you.

I think some here are afraid in ways that take a lot of things personally.

They call it their lifeline. Cause they fear Death in ways someone had to teach them.

Think the Father will hate them if they don't enforce some rule in their heads. Take all manner of irrationalities upon themselves to enforce.

Abused children do that.

Hello, Thomas Baum,

Please listen carefully to Paganplace - she speaks truly. Think about it.

I mean, come on, Thomas. You ought to know me a little, by now. Yes, I'm a secularist. I want to get that cross *out* of government cause I want *you* to have it.

Ain't doing either of us any good when some political party takes it from you and uses it as a bludgeon.

Is it, now?

Thomas:

"This may not be the "definition" of 'secularism' but anyone that has read some of the things written by some that call themself, secularists, would have to conclude that some 'secularists' most definitely are anti-religion including some of the "secularists" that point-blank say that they are."

Secularism is a political notion that we should be governed by standards *outside* of our beliefs in or about religion.

"Some" secularists are Christian and don't want government deciding or enforcing what's 'righteous,' (solely on that basis) knowing that this corrupts *both* Church and state, some are strident disbelievers in the same religion who nonetheless wish for us all to be able to manage our lives without everything being about Christianity... Some are Pagans like myself, even, who have a deep faith that needs no coercion or compulsion, and resent the implication that 'some are more equal than others.'

You know better, Thomas.

If I judged you by 'Some Christians' as 'Some Christians' judge me by (often imaginary) 'non-Christians,' well, I'd probably be supporting the coup of my choice rather than believing in Liberty.

'Secularism' *isn't* the opposite of 'religion.' It's the opposite of *state* religion. (Or state non-religion.)

Secularism is simply... About governing by reason and law, not by religious pronouncements and authorities.

Call it 'Giving to Caesar what is Caesar's.' Call it a 'free market of religious ideas' as opposed to government getting involved.

Call it... America. For you, me, people we don't like much, everyone.

There's a repetition of the nonsensical statement "This is about freedom 'of' religion, not freedom 'from' religion."

That doesn't make sense, does it? How is anyone supposed to have 'freedom of religion' if we're not free *from* a religious faction that wants to *enforce* its religion with state power?

These folks have it all twisted around: their 'religion' declares outsiders 'enemies'... calls it their 'religion' to oppress us, and, *voila,* not kneeling to someone else's religion is 'oppression' of those demanding you kneel and obey, ...and saying we're all equal as free individuals under the law is 'anti-religion' and 'unfree.'

Foolish. Orwellian, even. Animal-Farmish, in fact.

PAGANPLACE

You wrote, "The problem with your definition of 'secularism,' (as anti-religion or based on rejecting religion,) Monotheist, is it's not true.

No matter how many times you say it."

This may not be the "definition" of 'secularism' but anyone that has read some of the things written by some that call themself, secularists, would have to conclude that some 'secularists' most definitely are anti-religion including some of the "secularists" that point-blank say that they are.

To group all so-called "secularists" and say that this is what "all of them" believe, think, say, is just as much off of the mark as saying all "religionists", as some group together anyone that happens to believe in something bigger, so to speak, than mere mortals, believe, think, say.

We are all human beings and we are all different, we are equal in God's Eyes but equal does not mean the same.

As I have said before, God looks at the person, not the label.

As for labels, even those that may put a label on themself, the dictionary definition may not be definitive in what really makes up that person, so to speak.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

TTWSYFAMDGGAHJMJ2:
There is so much wrong with your post that I scarcely know where to begin. If I leave something out do not assume that it is because I agree with it.

“Secularism does not protect religion it destroys religion”
No it does not. It only restricts it within state venues. There is nothing whatsoever in this nation that blocks any individual from being a part of any religion to the degree they desire. It simply says that this Nation’s laws and religious laws are two separate things and that one should not dictate adherence to the other. This nation does not establish one religion as being truer than another. It can only do this by staying out of the debate.
“America has sought an agnostic Court that has said, traditional morality serves no legitimate purpose to the State, and cannot be a purpose for civil laws”
You are confusing ‘traditional morality’ with law. You are also falsely promoting YOUR traditional morality as a UNIVERSAL morality. It is not. Laws in this nation are constructed, or at least should be, on individual rights and individual freedom. Arbitrary and wildly varying religious taboos have no place in a truly free society. If your sect wishes to ban dancing or modern music, then nothing stands in your way of running your religion that way. You and your fellow believers are free to follow your religion’s tenets as they see fit. What this nation’s laws will NOT stand for is your religion, or any other religion forcing non-adherents to obey a set of rules that they do not believe in. Would you seriously want it any other way? Do you actually want a religious code to be enacted as the law of the land? Are you assuming I’m talking about YOUR religious code? What if I’m not?
“then even atheism is a religion, or, as is said, a secular religion”
That dog don’t hunt. Atheism is not a religion the same way not collecting stamps is not a hobby. Atheism has no supernatural element. It has no single fixed moral code, it has no ceremonies or rites, it has no priests or seminaries. It has no membership roles or worship services, it has no saints or messiahs. Atheism is not a religion by any definition.
“Consequently, atheism is a denouncement of God and our Constitution”
Wrong again. Atheism is merely a non-belief in a god, that’s all. And God isn’t even mentioned in the constitution. The constitution is a set of rules preambled by “We the People . . . do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America”
Of the people, by the people. Atheism is not mentioned, neither is your religion, your god, or any other god. The constitution stands on its own, with or without a god.

“The Founding Fathers (F/F) based the Constitution on our Christian beliefs”
That’s just ignorant. Show me where the bible discusses free press, three branches of government, presidential selection process, state of the union speeches, a census, etc. Some of us have READ the constitution you know.. show us the biblical basis references for the constitution.

“The Creator endowed man with certain inalienable rights”
Which creator?

“In addition, the Court has found a Constitutional right to immorality. Hence, we have an arbitrary Constitutional right, under the guise of “privacy” and “liberty” to engage in “gay sex” “
There it is, it pops up every time. What is it with you guys and homosexuality?

“though gay sex is a major cause of a deadly disease, AIDS, a deadly societal hazard of which over 26 million victims have died from, worldwide and countless infected HIV victims.”

Unprotected sex with an infected partner is the only cause of the spread of AIDS. It doesn’t matter which kind of sex, nor does the gender of either partner matter.

“Man has no more authority to define man than to declare it is Unconstitutional for the Sun to shine.”
Define man? What are you talking about. The government makes and enforces laws, that’s all.

I would not want to live in a nation that oppresses people as you seek to do. We have had centuries of church-states that oppressed and slaughtered people for their beliefs or lack of them. Your plan for a Christian nation is the exact opposite of that which this nation’s founders intended.
You are merely asking the arm of the nations law be employed to uphold your archaic and nonsensical version of bronze-age idol worshipping morality. No thanks pal… You and your friends are free to impose whatever silly rules you want on yourselves.. leave me out of it.

The problem with your definition of 'secularism,' (as anti-religion or based on rejecting religion,) Monotheist, is it's not true.

No matter how many times you say it.

IN REPLY TO (IRT)
SUSAN BROOK THISTLETHWAITE
“SECULARISM”

IRT:
“Secularism is the idea that government should exist separately from religious beliefs and/or religious practice. Secularists celebrate this division because it protects people who do not choose belief from being legally coerced by religion. But secularism also protects religion from the state, an equally crucial freedom.”

ANS:
What is Secularism? 1. “Secularism is the spirit or tendency, esp. a system of political or social philosophy that rejects all forms of religious faith and worship. 2. It is the view that public education and other matters of civil policy should be conducted without the introduction of a religious element."

Under these definitions, Secularism does not protect religion it destroys religion, that is, if religion means “a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the existence of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs."

Hence, Thomas Jefferson once asked, “If not the Churches, to whom do we go for our moral guidance and beliefs?” Today, America has sought an agnostic Court that has said, traditional morality serves no legitimate purpose to the State, and cannot be a purpose for civil laws.

More so, if religion means “the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices, or a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects,” then even atheism is a religion, or, as is said, a secular religion.

Consequently, atheism is a denouncement of God and our Constitution. Ergo, governments that denounce God and separate from God are a detriment to society. Such are the atheistic nations ruled by Materialism or Secularism. Today, America is becoming a Secular nation whose majority has denounced the authority of God.

IRT:
“That's why we can never refer to ourselves as a ‘Christian nation.’”

ANS:
We were a Christian nation formed under the auspices of our Judeo-Christian heritage. Eight of the 13 Original Colonies were formed because of religious freedom.

The Founding Fathers (F/F) based the Constitution on our Christian beliefs; they based the Bill of Rights on our Christian beliefs. The F/F based its Civil Law, not on a Buddhist, Pagan, Hindu, or Muslim god, but on a Christian God.

They described man as being created by God. They recognized our inalienable rights based on the Natural Law (NL) and that the Christian God is its author. Namely, all men are created equal. Any government that doesn’t recognize God is not a legitimate government.

The Creator endowed man with certain inalienable rights. Moreover, any government, that doesn’t recognize man’s inalienable rights, has no legitimacy. Governments that decide they are the sole source of our inviolable rights are governments of totalitarianism; they are tyrannical and despotic; they rule by force.

Further, such secular governments that deny the authority of God and usurp His authority as their own become gods unto themselves.

America has done just that and consequently over 50 million unborn have died because a majority on the Court decided God doesn’t give man rights, man does.

To the contrary, it is a government’s duty to recognize man’s inviolable rights. And, since these rights are endowed by God, they are inviolable. Inviolable rights would have no meaning if there were no recognition of God.

In addition, the Court has found a Constitutional right to immorality. Hence, we have an arbitrary Constitutional right, under the guise of “privacy” and “liberty” to engage in “gay sex” though gay sex is a major cause of a deadly disease, AIDS, a deadly societal hazard of which over 26 million victims have died from, worldwide and countless infected HIV victims.

The Court decided that it is the arbiter of man’s inalienable rights, contrary to the Bill of Rights. Consequently, they took away the Right to Life from the unborn and the defenseless witnessed in the Teri Schiavo case. Moreover they defied the NL and redefined ‘person” in "Roe." Man has no more authority to define man than to declare it is Unconstitutional for the Sun to shine.

I guess my problem with Islam is that it does not seem to try and control it's followers. It's the extremists we're told, but where is the rest if Islam in reigning these psycho's in?

After the latest disturbing developments in Pakistan, we may indeed be at war with Islam some day.

Unless the peaceful Muslims (the majority) take control of their religion then I fear Islam will be irradiated some day. Either the west will wipe out all the Muslim's or the Muslim's will wipe out everyone else and a bastardized version of Islam will reign supreme.

The end days may becoming, not because God has brought judgment, but because delusional religious leaders take advantage of uneducated people.

This is why we never, ever give up our personal freedom. When you do you allow one bad apple to kill the planet

President Obama's recent statements to the Muslim world that "the United States is not, and never will be, at war with Islam" and that "we do not consider ourselves a Christian nation"?

...not at war with Islam. True for now.
...never will be at war with Islam. Unknown at this time.
...not consider ourselves a Christian nation. Partially true. Some do and are as ready to die for the idea as are Muslim zealots for their ideas. Others do not and want to keep it that way.

Ignorance? Everywhere. Ignorance of Islam? Epidemic in this nation. I have read two translations of Quran and still have difficulty with it since the ancient Arabic does not translate well to English, and because I have never lived in that culture.

Of this I am sure--Islam has never seriously questioned itself or entertained the idea that it needs to evolve via Reformation of itself. Until it does, it will remain divided within itself and from the rest of the world.

NIKOSD99:
“God is Love and He loves us and wants us to love Him in return.”
“Do you have children? Do you want them to love you? Because you love them don't you lay down some restrictions because you know the dire results if they follow their own inclinations?”

There’s a huge difference. Yes I have kids, yes I laid down restrictions, rules, and yes I did punish them if they disobeyed. But I never punished them simply for not loving me enough. Nor were any of my punishments eternal. This is what your god does. He punishes people/souls eternally, without possibility of pardon or parole simply for not worshipping him properly.
I punished my children when they lied, stole something, or did something to endanger the safety of themselves or others. This was to teach them about consequences for anti-social behavior. The punishment was swift and certain, but never, ever did I abandon them for all time. Never, ever did I punish them at all for simply not loving me enough.

“God does not condemn you, you condemn yourself.”
Do you not realize how insane that is? I did not choose to be born; according to you God chose to create me (for the express purpose of worshipping and praising him?). Now you say I must spend my life praising him, worshipping him, or he will cast me into eternal flaming pits. And that this will be MY fault. I have ‘free will’. That is bizarre logic. We don’t have free will at all under this twisted system. We only have ONE choice, all others lead to damnation. That’s not choice, that’s not free will, that is coercion.
It’s like a scene from a thousand movies. A man holds people hostage for whatever reason, bank robbery, plane hijacking, kidnap for ransom. The man tells them to obey him completely or he will start shooting. One hostage, let’s call him Tony, stands up and confronts him, the man shoots him then tells the other hostages that it was Tony’s fault since he knew the consequences. The hostages did not choose to be hostages of this man. They do not have free will; they only have one choice if they wish to survive. When the police arrive, who do they, in any civilized society, blame for Tony’s death? When has the “Tony knew the consequences” defense EVER been considered moral?
Jesus said many times “Come with me.” What about those that did not join his merry band? Did he strike them down? Did he tell them: “Come with me or you will be tortured for all eternity”? One is an invitation, the other is extortion. Which does Jesus actually do?
I would love to know this: When you invite someone to your home for a meal, party, poetry reading, or even to worship do you threaten to torture them if they do not accept?
Have you ever punished your children, forever, for not loving you enough?

“To deny and/or reject God is to play into the hands of the devil whose sole desire is to destroy you and take you with himself into the bottomless pit. God does not condemn you, you condemn yourself.”
And yet God allows ‘the devil’ to do this. Would you as a parent allow someone into your home to corrupt or tempt your children into doing wrong? What would you call a parent that allowed a drug pusher to live and mingle with your children?

“. . . the remaining angels would have served Him out of fear.”
Is that NOT what you are doing? Is that not EXACTLY what you are asking me to do? “Worship him or suffer for all eternity” is a threat. You invite us to worship him to escape eternal torment. You are specifically asking people to be afraid.

“Or maybe you really think that your consciousness ends with the death of your earthly body? “
That is exactly what I believe. I find no reason whatsoever to believe otherwise. Why do you find this simple concept so hard to accept?

“If that's the way it really is, then why not kill, rape, steal, take what you want and live high on the hog?”
For the same reason dogs, chimps, dolphins, coyotes, and thousands of other animals don’t do these things very often. Because we are social animals, we need each other to survive. The individual that violates these rules of social behavior threaten to damage that society, so that society punishes the rule-breaker for the good of society. Do you honestly think that prior to Moses’ burning bush that there were no rules or laws in any tribe or society about stealing, or murder? There are billions of people on this planet that do not worship or even acknowledge your god, yet they also view murder, rape and theft, etc. as negative behaviors. Your religion did not invent these laws/behaviors. I do not rape, steal or murder simply because I do not want to. I respect other people and hope that they respect me. I don’t need a threatening cosmic force to tell me how to behave around others. Do you?

@Athena4:

Ofcourse there are many many very good muslims. Many of my close family are muslims, and they are far from being fanatic. But that does not mean that Islam as an ideology is peaceful. It is not. How do the peaceful and moderate muslims behave when the fanatic minority rapes and pillages the kafir minority amongst them? Historical precedent is very very discouraging. And the treatment of the minorities in the muslim countries at present is atrocious.

Christians blowing up abortion clinics are considered criminals and caught, prosecuted and jailed. Maududi preaching subjugation of the minorities is being defended even by as reasonable person as Spark1 at this forum. Suicide bombers are hailed as Martyrs and held up as heroes. Have you not seen Videos of Mothers dancing in joy because their son is now a Shaeed (Martyr), and that guarantees them a space in heaven? Comparing a criminal outlier of christianity in the present day world to the mainstream Islam is inaccurate and misleading.
Islam does not have 4 sects. You are likely confusing it with the 4 schools of Islamic "jurisprudence". Islam has many more than 4 sects.

Akafir - I understand quite a bit about the Quran, even though I am a kafir-by-choice (Pagan) myself. I understand there are at least four different sects of Islam, not just Sunni and Shia. I also understand that 90% of Muslims do not consider themselves to be at war with the West or Christianity. My husband worked with a guy who was a second-generation Iranian, and he was the nicest, most non-violent person you could ever meet. His mosque preached non-violence and community outreach. I don't think that we can judge all Moslems based on the actions of a relatively small group of fanatics, just like we can't judge all Christians by those that blow up abortion clinics.

Spark advises me thus:

“go through the figures and you will find it (Islam) is now the fast growing religion of the world.”
I went through the figures and found out that over 6 million of your coreligionists see the light every year, and that is only in Africa.
http://www.formermuslims.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=972

Mono1.

I agree with your comments that Islam fights against ignorance.

Abhab

Also read about mongols, huns, the anglo-saxons, about maha-bharta and ashoka, about romans and the persians.
Dont just keep one track, if you cannot learn through these blogs then look at the history.
Islam is a progressive religion, well balanced in all shapes and forms, go through the figures and you will find it is now the fast growing religion of the world.
You and co left with one choice to take your anger in these blogs by mis-representing the facts. When you are not a muslim you are not the best interpreter on its theological philosophy.

Spark suggests:
“Read the history and world religions and then blame Islam.”

I read world history and found out that the warlike tribes of Arabia who subsisted by raiding and looting each other, had concentrated their skills on the neighboring societies in the name of their cult. They pillaged, looted raped killed and enslaved the people of the Middle East, North Africa and parts of Europe. They destroyed those countries’ much more advanced civilizations and cultures. It was the worst type of colonialism since it forced the conquered people to identify with the invader at the expense of their true identity. They drilled into the minds of the Copts of Egypt, Babylonians of Iraq, the Canaanites and Arameans of Syria and the Berbers of North Africa that they are Arabs. They imposed their religion, their language and their culture on them while treating what was left of them as second and third class citizens. Worst yet, with their fossilized 7th Century desert ideology they condemned all those colonized peoples into the life of intolerance, superstition, ignorance and poverty that exists there today.

islam is in war with jahilia(ignorance).

not only since day one is in the business of knoking ignorance and ignorant heads but this will continue till the last day.

islam is not only here to stay but here to have the upper hand simply because its the religion of the creator god .

1-islam is not a culture that come and go or a civilization that live and die by a better civilization.

2-the messeage that the creator god send to mohamed(s)to mankind every where until the last day ,is not meant to be kept in the church box or the place of worship box or to be separated from the state and governement and the rest of mankind ,the messeage is humankind and international and is coming to you whether you like it or not not because the *muslims extremeists* desire so but because the creator god desire so ,if you want to accept it fine if you do not at least do not stop it because you will be in trouble,first with the creator god second with those sincere muslim s who carry the message of islam.

george bush carried his *delusion* all the way to iraq? why is odd for muslims who carry the message of the creator god to africa or america or even to the moon if commanded by the creator god?

islam in his war with jahilia uses 2 techniques,

1-islam works on knoking false belives and false dietyies and idols,islam already knoked it in meca ,knoked it in perisa,knoked it in rome ,knoked it every where in this planet earth and will knok it again and again till the last day,go around the planet earth you will never find a better knoker .

2-islam uses forces if neccessary if any one or any group try to block its way thru ,if you do not agree with it at least leave it alone because it will over come you at least ideologicaly ,come with better than islam if you can afford one this is the only way to bolck islam .

its a war no matter how you look at it at least its a theological and ideological war.

Akafir

Opposition for the sake of opposition based upon hate and contempt instigates you to quote from various place but what you quoted from Maudoodi's writes do not show that picture which you wish to produce.
What is Jihad?
The word Jihad stems from the Arabic root word J-H-D,
which means "strive."
Other words derived from this root include "effort," "labor," and "fatigue."

Essentially Jihad is an effort to practice religion in the face of oppression and persecution.

Jihad is often mistakenly described as "holy war."
Explore what the true meaning of Jihad is, a constant struggle
to preserve one's faith and defend the rights to freedom of worship.

The Arabic word comes from the root jahada, meaning to strive or endeavor to do something.
For mainstream Muslims it can mean struggling to lead a virtuous life.
The greater jihad is a personal struggle or quest to always act according to the ideals of Islam. It refers to monitoring one's personal behavior and habits, displaying the moderation and tolerance advocated by Islam, etc. This is the more important jihad.
Lesser jihad is a quest to encourage the ideals of Islam outside of one's own self. This can involve raising awareness about Islam, defending it against any attack or threat.

Now look what you have mentioned in this context.

@Spark1 says: Islam is not a cult but a largest religion and it is a tolerant religion.

But earlier he used the words of Maududi (the founder of Jamaat Islami in Pakistan and an extension of the Muslim Brotherhood of the Middle East into the South Asian Islam) from Maududi's book "Towards Understanding Islam"

"The inevitable consequence of this revolt and denial of reality is a failure in the ultimate ideals of life. such a rebel will never find the thread of real knowledge and vision; for the knowledge that fails to reveal its own creator can reveal no truth. Such a man’s intellect and reason always run astray; for reason which errs in knowing its own creator cannot illumine the paths of life. Such a man will meet with failures in all the affairs of his life. His morality, his civic and social life, his struggle for livelihood and his family life, in short, his entire living, will be upset. He will spread confusion and disorder on the earth. He will without the least compunction, shed blood, violate other men’s rights, be cruel to them, and create disorder and destruction in the world. His perverted thoughts and ambitions, his blurred vision and disturbed scale of values, and his evil-spelling activities would make life bitter for him and for all around him. Such a man would destroy the calm and poise of life on earth."

Spark1, why don't you also tell what Maududi says in his book "Jihad in Islam":

"In reality Islam is a revolutionary ideology and programme which seeks to alter the social order of the whole world and rebuild it in conformity with its own tenets and ideals. 'Muslim' is the title of that International Revolutionary Party organized by Islam to carry into effect its revolutionary programme. And 'Jihad' refers to that revolutionary struggle and utmost exertion which the Islamic Party brings into play to acheive this objective."
--Sayeed Abdul A'la Maududi, Jihad in Islam p8

"Islam wishes to destroy all States and Governments anywhere on the face of the earth which are opposed to the ideology and programme of Islam regardless of the country or the Nation which rules it. The purpose of Islam is to set up a State on the basis of its own ideology and programme, regardless of which Nation assumes the role of the standard bearer of Islam or the rule of which nation is undermined in the process of the establishment of an ideological Islamic State."
--Sayeed Abdul A'la Maududi, Jihad in Islam p9

"No one has the right to become a self-appointed ruler of men and issue orders and prohibitions on his own volition and authority. To acknowledge the personal authority of a human being as the source of commands and prohibitions is tantamount to admitting him as the sharer in the Powers and Autority of God. And this is the root of all evils in the universe."
--Sayeed Abdul A'la Maududi, Jihad in Islam p14

"Islam is not merely a religious creed or compund name for a few forms of worship, but a comprehensive system which envisages to annihilate all tyrannical and evil systems in the world and enforces its own programme of reform which it deems best for the well-being of mankind."
--Sayeed Abdul A'la Maududi, Jihad in Islam p19

"It must be evident to you from this discussion that the objective of Islamic 'Jihad' is to eliminate the rule of an un-Islamic system and establish in its stead an Islamic system of State rule. Islam does not intend to confine this revolution to a single State or a few countries; the aim of Islam is to bring about a universal revolution."
--Sayeed Abdul A'la Maududi, Jihad in Islam p24

@Spark1:

Is it correct to say that one who does not believe in Muhammad and Allah and the Quran is a Kafir? You know it is. You are the one who defined how terrible the Kafir is and how he creates "Fitna" on this earth. If the Kafir is as horrible as you say, then why should the Kafirs be allowed to have any sway on men anywhere?

I am merely showing what the "Fanatics" (as Atena4 called them) are saying. It is the same thing that many well known and renowned Muslims have said in the past. Is that not what you have said in your earlier post where you defined a Kafir and a Muslim?

Islam has bloody borders all around the world. Israeli problem is not an issue of land at all, is it? Israel can go back to the 1967 borders and the problem does not go away, does it? Hamas, Iran, the fanatics in Pakistan, the fanatics in Philipines, etc. have sworn that they will never ever accept a Jewish state. Why? You know why. The believers of Quran cannot accept the rule of Kafirs, and especially the jewish Kafirs, over Islamic Lands.

Spark1, the world is small now and there is no option but to live together peacefully. Will Islam allow the muslims to live together with the filthy kafirs? Please read what you wrote and think how many kafirs there are on this planet, and what it means to the present world.

You bring up the Hindus. Have you seen the elections that are being held there? They as a country have accepted the separation of religion and the state. Whereas the muslim countries are all screaming for Sharia and leaving no place for the non-muslims. Can you see a difference?

Arif

It is easy to insult others on such forums where you can hide and throw mud on others.
It is a mean mentality to attack others ideas while never ever come up with an alternative of your own.
You know very well Muhammad PBUH is the most praised person on the face of earth.
Millions and millions of muslims, five times a day send blessings upon him.
If you spit on the moon it will fell on your own face.
Alas "intentionaly" blind deaf and dumb are away from righteousness

Abhab/Kafir

Are the hindus not seeking their dominence in Asia by spending on atomic and space programs while the poor people are dying with hunger.
Israel is a small country but they too got atomic bombs, they have expanded their land after 1967 and refused to give it back except egypt.
The US attacked Iraq on false assumptions
Give me an exampe at present which Islamic country attacked any non-islamic country.
Read the history and world religions and then blame Islam.
What do you think hidden behind internet by posting insulting mails you can change the minds of muslims about their religion, rather you are re-enforcing them.
Islam is not a cult but a largest religion and it is a tolerant religion.
Dont feel so much cramps and pain for what is happening in pakistan, let the people feel the freedom of expression their after a long military rule. If a group says something let them say, why you fear and began crying they are not coming to india tomorrow.

The following is from WP front page report by Pamela Constable:
********************************************
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/19/AR2009041901731_2.html?hpid=topnews
.......
"When we achieve our goals in one place, we need to struggle for it in other areas," Taliban spokesman Muslim Khan told Pakistani news services by telephone last week. "Sharia does not permit us to lay down our arms if the government continues anti-Muslim policies." The goal, he said, is to "enforce the rule of Allah on the land of Allah."
**************************************

Keep in mind that every inch of God's creation is the land of Allah. The statement above is the same as made by Qutb, Maududi, and many others in many different fora. The words may be slightly different but the meaning is the same.

Now think of Obama's words again carefully. America is not a Christian Country ... of course it is not. Never was.
America is not at war with Islam ... of course it is not. America neither knows nor understands Islam well enough to be at war with it.

But please read Spark1's excellent exposition (which by the way is a well established and generally recognized and accepted by all Allah fearing Muslims), and then read what the leader of JI of Pakistan writes in a Pakistani Newspaper, and hear what the spokesperson for the Taliban is saying, and put it into perspective what the Muslim Brotherhood has been saying and then ask yourself whether Islam is at war with America or not? As americans we will have to answer this question sooner or later.

AKafir warns us thus::

“What Spark1 has written is in complete agreement with what Syed Qutb (The founder of the Muslim Brotherhood) wrote…. that Muslims cannot allow Kufr to rule anywhere in God's creation. Since those who willingly and willfully reject the Quran and Muhammad are Kafirs by definition, they cannot be allowed to be rulers anywhere on this earth. This is the simple and plain agenda of the righteous Muslim …”

A vivid confirmation to the above warning, is the following paragraph from a Muslim Brotherhood document linked below and titled “strategic goal” for the USA.

“The process of settlement [of Islam in the United States] is a "Civilization-Jihadist" process with all the word means. The Ikhwan (Muslim Brotherhood) must understand that all their work in America is a kind of grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and "sabotaging" their miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God's religion is made victorious over all religions. Without this level of understanding, we are not up to this challenge and have not prepared ourselves for Jihad yet. It is a Muslim's destiny to perform Jihad and work wherever he is and wherever he lands until the final hour comes, and there is no escape from that destiny except for those who choose to slack.”

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/opinion/columnists/rdreher/stories/DN-dreher_09edi.ART.State.Edition1.4235f88.html

NIKOSD99 noted:

"Please note the "longsuffering" part. God waits and sends messengers to turn the hearts of the people, but they won't have it. How many plagues did God send the Pharaoh through Moses before he wiped out the Pharaoh and his army by drowning them in the Red Sea? "

In reality, there was no Moses and therefore no god-inflicted plagues or parting of the Red Sea.

For added edification:

As per most of 1.5 million contemporary, Conservative Jews to include Rabbi Wolpe, an On-Faith panel member, Abraham founder/father of three major religions was either the embellishment of the lives of three different men or a
mythical character as was mythical Moses, the "Tablet-Man" who talked to burning bushes and made much magic in Egypt.

Actually, most Conservative Jews have put much of the OT on the myth pile.

www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

GLADERUNNER, you said. "I don’t suppose you see the contradiction there?
God doesn’t force himself on us, we have free will. But if we exercise that ‘free’ will, if we choose not to worship him, he will destroy the nation with unimaginable and eternal horrors.
That sir is not free will. That is extortion; the threat of supreme, terrible and mighty punishment simply for not loving him enough. He wants all of us to love him, worship him and devote our lives to his holy name. Those that do will be rewarded; those that don’t will be punished for all eternity without hope of pardon or parole. It’s not enough to reward the good and simply leave the dissenters be, no that’s not enough, he must make them suffer for all time."

You must realize, Gladerunner, that this present world is not going to go on indefinitely. Neither is Satan so that he can continue to deceive the nations. It is the forces of evil that brings death and destruction. Why would God want that to continue? As for yourself, you have no desire to have fellowship with the Lord during your lifetime, so why would you want to go be with Him after death? So, what is left for you? You say, "...simply leave the dissenters be." Where? Or maybe you really think that your consciousness ends with the death of your earthly body? If that's the way it really is, then why not kill, rape, steal, take what you want and live high on the hog? Just don't get caught. But if you do and they execute you, so what? It's over for you and you have no remembrance but, Boy! What a Ride.

You question God's right to do as He chooses. You are finite. He is infinite. He's the Creator. You are a vessel that has been created. Romans 9:14-23 states, "What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much LONGSUFFERING the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,"

Please note the "longsuffering" part. God waits and sends messengers to turn the hearts of the people, but they won't have it. How many plagues did God send the Pharaoh through Moses before he wiped out the Pharaoh and his army by drowning them in the Red Sea? You laugh and scoff and say, "Yet god has yet to destroy this nation, or any nation, even those that reject him completely."

Well, the Pharaoh was one that He destroyed. Also the entire world, save Noah and his family, by the Flood. And the Jews lost their nation and were scattered throughout the world because they turned their back on God and rejected The Word (Jesus Christ). But God did promise way back in the Old Testament that a remnant would remain and that His people (Israel) would one day return to their land. That happened in 1948. I'm sure that you know that.

To further answer your charge on the matter of God's dalliance, here's what Peter has to say in 2 Peter 3-10. Incidentally, did you know that you were mentioned in the Bible?

"Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days SCOFFERS, walking after their own lusts, And saying, WHERE IS THE PROMISE OF HIS COMING? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The LORD IS NOT SLACK CONCERNING HIS PROMISE, as some men count slackness; but is LONGSUFFERING to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

I will talk about the souls of the unborn.

Our country was founded on freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion. Our founding fathers came here because they did not want anyone to tell them what to believe within the four inches between their ears. They were Christians who were oppressed in England because of their beliefs. They came here and settled but they believed in the Almighty.

Our freedoms presume that individuals will have a private, strong connection to the Almighty, a sense of what is good and what is evil. Perhaps they took their values for granted, took for granted that a person would naturally know the Almighty, albeit choose different ways of worshiping.

Every person is made in the image of the Almighty who created us and all the world. He gave us the freedom to realize it or not. Here, we are free to go as far afield as we choose. And here we are free to practice our religions as we see fit.

We cherish our freedom that we have here. To keep it though, there has to be acceptance and respect for others. We don't force our religions on anyone. That is what freedom means. But that does not mean that we do not pursue a relationship with the Almighty, the one and only true Judge.

May the Almighty continue to bless our nation and protect our freedom so that every religion peacefully co-exists in harmony and love of fellow man.

The Kafirs should read what Spark1 has written in the last two part post closely and carefully. Spark1 is obviously an intelligent, moderate and as modern a muslim as you can come across.

What Spark1 has written is in complete agreement with what Syed Qutb wrote and what Maulana Mawdudi expounded. They took the statements to their logical conclusion and that is that Muslims cannot allow Kufr to rule anywhere in God's creation. Since those who willingly and wilfully reject the Quran and Muhammad are Kafirs by definition, they cannot be allowed to be rulers anywhere on this earth. This is the simple and plain agenda of the righteous Muslim and notice to the non-muslims everywhere. There is no Compromise possible because what will be the basis of compromising with Kufr? Quran totally rejects it and any one who calls himself a Muslim does not have any philosphical or theological argument to compromise with the Kafirs. All that is available to them is the example of the temporary peace when the Muslims are weak. When they feel strong enough then Jihad must resume.

A very similar argument is given by a muslim in one of the pakistani newspapers today:
************************************
http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=173373
...................
Pakistan is not just any state based on geographical entities. It is the embodiment of a definite Ideology and religion. As the Father of the Nation, Quaid-e-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah, put it: Pakistan came into being the very day the first Muslim set foot on the subcontinent. Pakistan is a result of the Two-nation Theory that clearly spells that the life of Muslims is governed by the Islamic system based on Quran and Sunnah. Until we harmonise our lives, economy, society, Constitution and legal system with Islam, our society will continue to suffer from internal strife and friction.

Those who believe that Pakistan can be secularised by separating the Islamic system from its state are suffering from a serious fallacy. What they conveniently ignore in their bias against Islamic codes is that Islamisation of the country is not just the demand of what they call some extremists but is the strong desire of an overwhelming majority of the people, millions of whom are ready to sacrifice their lives to achieve this objective, like those who laid down their lives in the Pakistan Movement.

Though this majority is under the strong shackles of a tiny minority of western-slaves, the dawn of an Islamic revolution is round the corner. This is the era of a global Muslim renaissance as slavery’s shackles are breaking and the enemies of Islam are on the retreat after the huge fortresses of their military and economic might are coming down under the pure resistance and sacrifices of the believers.
........
*******************************************

Let the Kafirs every where read that and be aware that the same argument applies to and by the muslims amongst them as long as they quote and hold the Quran paramount. The Two Nation theory applies to the muslims of Europe, Canada, Australia, USA, etc. etc.

Someone said this about Angel Gabriel...
"She is also the same angel that went to Mohammed and infused him with knowledge to write the Koran."

Well I never knew this, I never knew that Gabriel was a woman...a female angel!!! No wonder Mohammed (PBUH) went to the cave all alone fro all those years, this guy must have been flogging his camel in the cave after this godly creature must've visited him. Mohammed never allowed anyone of his merry men in on this secret, none of his "guys" saw this babe angel. I don't think angels wear clothes either, they can't after all that flying they do at the speed of light, cotton garments cannot withstand entering earth atmosphere and they burn up leaving bear naked gorgeous angel with a message of koran.

Arif

In response to this are two beautiful quotes that the President and the Vice President might reread, as I am sure they have read them before:

"I believe that unarmed truth and unconditional love will have the final word in reality. That is why right, temporarily defeated, is stronger than evil triumphant." Martin Luther King Jr. (1929 - 1968), Accepting Nobel Peace Prize, Dec. 10, 1964

"In a time of Universal Deceit, Telling the Truth is a Revolutionary Act." George Orwell

In regard to the first quote a man was murdered in vain, for what...for the government shoving more lies down people's throats.

The man who killed Dr. Martin Luther King Jr was programmed to assisinate him. The real murderers of Dr Martin Luther King Jr is the FBI...the dark side of the FBI...they did it, they know they did it, and because of that most of them will be tortured in Hell for an eternity! Just as a serial raper in Boise Idaho in the seventies thought he could stalk, harass, and rape me...he ended up instead getting exactly what he deserved. I didn't have to do a thing. My divine spiritual team of true light beings made sure things were set right.

As for the second quote...I have never read Orwell's 1984, and I have read many books. However, I have read the above quote, and I am a truth seeker as well as a truth teller. And, that is a problem for those at the government acronym agencies that actually think they can get away with harassing me for using my first ammendment rights. Especially a former Senator by the name of Bill Frist!

The President is right about the United States not being at war with Islam. The war is about greed, lies, evil, and mostly about cover ups! It is about the disgusting military industrial complex that Eisenhower warned people about many years ago.

Just a note to everyone...most people know who Archangel Gabriel the Saint is. She is the same angel that came to the Blessed Mother in a dream and told her of the coming Christ child who would be known as Jesus Christ, true son of God.

She is also the same angel that went to Mohammed and infused him with knowledge to write the Koran.

She is also the same angel that is the Guardian Angel of Joseph Biden who is the Vice President of these United States, and I would think he might want to contemplate that...especially considering he has known how vile the black ops military industrial complex has been for so many years.

She is also the same angel that is the Guardian Angel of Robert S Mueller lll, who is now in the sewer aka Hell! The one that people think of as Robert S Mueller lll is a mere clone without a soul.

And, for those of you that don't educate yourselves and those of you are not very good discerners you would know that the United States putrid shadow government has been cloning since the 1950's.

As for the black ops whose real name is Legion, good riddance!

Truly,
Karen Romero

In response to this are two beautiful quotes that the President and the Vice President might reread, as I am sure they have read them before:

"I believe that unarmed truth and unconditional love will have the final word in reality. That is why right, temporarily defeated, is stronger than evil triumphant." Martin Luther King Jr. (1929 - 1968), Accepting Nobel Peace Prize, Dec. 10, 1964

"In a time of Universal Deceit, Telling the Truth is a Revolutionary Act." George Orwell

In regard to the first quote a man was murdered in vain, for what...for the government shoving more lies down people's throats. The man who killed
Dr. Martin Luther King Jr was programmed to assisinate him. The real murderers of Dr Martin Luther King Jr is the FBI...the dark side of the FBI...they did it, they know they did it, and because of that most of them will be tortured in Hell for an eternity! Just as a serial raper in Boise Idaho in the seventies thought he could stalk, harass, and rape me...he instead got exactly what he deserved. I didn't have to do a thing. My divine spiritual team of true light beings made sure things were set right. It is called karma boys and girls!

As for the second quote...I have never read Orwell's 1984, and I have read many books. However, I have read the above quote, and I am a truth seeker as well as a truth teller. And, that is a problem for those at the government acronym agencies that actually think they can get away with harassing me for using my first ammendment rights. Especially a former Senator by the name of Bill Frist!

The President is right about the United States not being at war with Islam. The Iraq war is about greed, lies, evil, and mostly cover ups! It is about the disgusting military industrial complex that Eisenhower warned people about many years ago.

Just a note to everyone...most people know who Archangel Gabriel the Saint is. She is the same angel that came to the Blessed Mother in a dream and told her of the coming Christ child who would be known as Jesus Christ, true son of God.

She is also the same angel that went to Mohammed and infused him with knowledge to write the Koran.

She is also the same angel that is the Guardian Angel of Joseph Biden who is the Vice President of these United States, and I would think he might want to contemplate that...especially considering he has known how vile the black ops military industrial complex has been for many years.

She is also the same angel that is the Guardian Angel of Robert S Mueller lll, who is now in the sewer aka Hell! The one that people think of as Robert S Mueller lll is a mere clone without a soul.

And, for those of you that don't educate yourselves and those of you that are not very good discerners you would know that the United States putrid shadow government has been cloning since the 1950's.

I am embarressed by my beloved country...the United States of America, and I am certainly not afraid to say so.
This country has been run by secret abhorrent evil societies for far too long, and they will soon be joining their friends like Ken Ley, Buckley, and the devil Michael Hayden in the eternal prison.

And, I say good riddance to the little frat boy clubs. They are disgusting and evil!

Truly,
Karen Romero

part 2
On the other hand:
The moral life of a Muslim will always be filled with godliness, piety, righteousness and truthfulness. He will live in the world with the belief that God alone is the master of all that whatever he and other men possess has been given by God, that the powers he wields are only a trust from God, that the freedom he has been endowed with is not to be used indiscriminately, and that it is in his own interest to use it in accordance with God’s Will. He will constantly keep in view that one day he will have to return to the Lord and submit an account of his entire life. The sense of accountability will always remain firmly implanted in his mind and he will never behave in a carefree and irresponsible way.
He will be the most honored and the most respected one. No one can excel him in this respect. How can humiliation ever visit a person who is not prepared to bow his head or even spread his hand for any favor before anyone except God the Almighty, the Sovereign of the universe?
He will be most powerful and effective. No one can be more powerful than he-for he fears none but God and seeks blessings from none but Him. What power can make him deviate from the Right Path? What wealth can buy his faith? What force can mould his conscience? What power can coerce his behaviour?
He will be the most wealthy and rich. No one in the world can be richer or more independent than he-for he will live a life of austerity, satiety, and contentment. He will be neither sensualist, nor indulgent, nor greedy. He will be contented with whatever he earns fairly and honestly and even if heaps of ill-gotten wealth are put before him he will not even like to look at them, to say the least of availing them. He will have the peace and contentment of heart-and what can be a greater wealth than this?
He will be the most revered, popular, and the loved one. No one can be more lovable than he-for he lives a life of charity and benevolence. He will do justice to all and sundry, discharge his duties honestly, and work for the good of others sincerely. People's hearts would be naturally drawn towards him and they would like him, love him, and revere him.
He will be the most trusted and honored one. No one can be trustworthy than he-for he will not betray his trust, nor will he go astray from righteousness: he will be true to his word, and straightforward and honest in his dealings. He will be fair and just in all his affairs, for he is sure that God is ever- present, ever vigilant. Words fail to describe the credit and goodwill, which such a man commands. Can there be anyone who will not trust him?-such is the life and character of a Muslim.
If you understand the true character of a Muslim, you will be convinced that he cannot live in humiliation, abasement, or subjugation. He is bound to prevail and no power on earth can overwhelm him or subdue him. For Islam inoculates in him the qualities which cannot be overshadowed by any charm or illusion.

Why fight Kufr
Kufr is a form of ignorance, rather it is ignorance pure and simple. What ignorance can be greater than to be ignorant of God, the creator, the Lord of the universe? A man observes the vast panorama of nature, the superb mechanism that is ceaselessly working, the grand design that is manifest in every nook and corner of the creation-he observes this vast machine, but he does not know who is its maker and Director.
Do not think that by committing Kufr man does or can do any harm to God Almighty. No, not the least. The inevitable consequence of this revolt and denial of reality is a failure in the ultimate ideals of life. such a rebel will never find the thread of real knowledge and vision; for the knowledge that fails to reveal its own creator can reveal no truth. Such a man’s intellect and reason always run astray; for reason which errs in knowing its own creator cannot illumine the paths of life. Such a man will meet with failures in all the affairs of his life. His morality, his civic and social life, his struggle for livelihood and his family life, in short, his entire living, will be upset. He will spread confusion and disorder on the earth. He will without the least compunction, shed blood, violate other men’s rights, be cruel to them, and create disorder and destruction in the world. His perverted thoughts and ambitions, his blurred vision and disturbed scale of values, and his evil-spelling activities would make life bitter for him and for all around him. Such a man would destroy the calm and poise of life on earth. And in the life hereafter he would be held guilty for the crimes he committed upon his nature, his powers, and resources. Every organ of his body-his very brain, eyes, nose, hands, and feet-will complain against the injustice and cruelty he had done unto them. every tissue of his being will decry him before God Who, as the very fountain of justice, will award him the fullest punishment he deserves. This is the inglorious consequence of Kufr. It leads to the blind alley of utter failure, here and hereafter.

ABHAB:

"(Quran 9:29,)” Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”
.
This is just one of the many such jewels that incite against the non-Muslims, as listed in the cite below."

http://www.ethicalatheist.com/docs/islam_infidels.html

Thank you for the website listing. I've bookmarked it. You answered Allone better than I could have done...I haven't looked at the Q'uran since 1983!

Again, a sincere apology by Farnaz (Masumian) and a promise to stop using aliases (Observer12 aka Observer31 aka Yael1 aka ivri5678 aka Billy8 aka
nadinebatra) and straw men (Stadtbear and Spark1) in the future would be a great first step in giving any credence to said Farnaz/Ms. Masumian's comments in the future.

Allone asks:
“Please share where you find in the Quran that it says, as you stated, "the Q'uran's assertion that the west is a devil which must be destroyed."

(Quran 9:29,)” Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”
.
This is just one of the many such jewels that incite against the non-Muslims, as listed in the cite below.

http://www.ethicalatheist.com/docs/islam_infidels.html

Stadtbear,

Please share where you find in the Quran that it says, as you stated, "the Q'uran's assertion that the west is a devil which must be destroyed."

Even High School American History students are capable of recognizing that, while the majority of Americans (for the moment) are christians, The United States is not a 'christian nation.'

But to suggest that the United States will NEVER be at war with islam is entirely premature. Consider that radical islam, throughout the world, is gaining numbers and power. It is not inconceivable that radical islam (which supports the Q'uran's assertion that the west is a devil which must be destroyed, could acquire nuclear attack weapons, however small. If/when it does, the US may very well find that it necessarily IS at war with islam.

Well said, ARIF2. You said, "This Pure Muslim nation was created because they could not get along with the Hindus; very typical of Muslims at 10% or higher populations they don't get along with their neighbors."

Abraham was the father of Ishmael, the son of the slave woman, Hagar. He was also the father of Isaac, born to his wife, Sarah. Ishmael is the father of the Islamic nations, while Isaac is the forebearer of Israel. Of Ishmael, this is what the angel of the Lord had to say in Genesis 16:10-12 "And the angel of the LORD said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction. And he will be A WILD MAN; HIS HAND WILL BE AGAINST EVERY MAN, AND EVERY MAN'S HAND AGAINST HIM; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren."

And so it is today. The muslims still live in the presence of Israel and their hatred for the Israelites is not hidden. Who are the terrorists that are attacking, suicide bombing and killing in many nations?

Need anyone doubt the Word of the Lord?

Arif2

It cannot be the left to the choice of a stupid hate-monger to put false allegations and get the answers.
You and your father sina thinks they are very smart but in fact fools of fools.

Only you are born with a special brain othrwise all the muslims in india and pakistan were puppets which moved to form a new country.
you may be a rss hindu extemist who have some bad experience in child hood in india.
see a doc instead posting slurs

@Spark1,

Your analysis on why Pakistan was formed is wrong. The cut and paste from Pakistani newspapers is not going to last very long. As soon as the taliban become strong enough, the editors and newspaper owners will be intimidated enough to not write anything critical. I expect the gasp for help from the "moderate" muslims of Pakistan in the newspapers to not last more than a year.

Look at your beliefs with a clear mind. Do you really believe that there are Farishtas like Gabriel? And that there are jinns? Think about your answer.

Our job as humans is to purify our hearts and to beautify ourselves..Obamas words and actions are leading our country in that direction.
"If people TRUELY knew their religion they would know that there is only one religion, the religion of Love." We are all learning..Christians, Jews, Muslims.

Spark,

It's not as simple as you state, Pakistan was in the making many decades before 1947. Pakistan is a good case study of how Islam corrupts and warps entire populations. This Pure Muslim nation was created because they could not get along with the Hindus; very typical of Muslims at 10% or higher populations they don't get along with their neighbors. Separation with self rule and Sharia as their goal everyone who opposes them become the enemy. The holier the muslim the easier it is for him to kill...in the name of Allah!

Why is it that muslims who cannot answer simple questions about the character of their prophet or their bloody past, the continued menacing present resort to name calling?

Why do you call people ignorant and "thick minded"? Your other Muslim friend too is no different.

I am disappointed with the Christian members of the panel. None of them argued that the question of whether the U.S. is or is not a Christian nation is mute, because "Christian nation" is an inappropriate category.

A straightforward reading of Jesus and Paul in the New Testament reveals that the idea of a "Christian nation" is contrary to their ideals and to their visions for their followers. In fact, both Jesus and Paul are deeply suspicious of the state and seem to want to keep it at arm's length.

This does not mean that they saw religion as a private matter that is apolitical. By contrast, they understand the religious movement they fostered as deeply political. It offered an alternate way of living that contrasted with the power of Imperial Rome. It offered an alternative community that contrasted with Roman citizenship. But it was not supposed to set up a competing "Christian nation." Instead, to use Jesus' imagery, Christians were supposed to be spread throughout the nations of the world like yeast in bread offering a different vision of human life.

But in the fourth century Christians achieved political power and started to adjust Christian ideals in order to justify empires. This has been one of the primary dilemmas in Christianity ever since, and Christianity needs to re-read New Testament.

The obfuscating Farnaz (Masumian) continues to demonstrate that she is simply a disgruntled, delusional, part-time religion teacher from Texas.

Akafir

Pakistan was created because of the foolishness of congress leaders and non-tolerance of muslims of india by the stupid the hindu extemists.
Still the story is being kept repeating, perhaphs you have not learned any lesson,perhaps you remain thick minded.

Who cares for you cut/paste from pakistan newspapers.

CCNL,

I have not yet emailed Farnaz Masumian, despite my promise to do so on Susan Jacoby's thread. Realize, of course, that others may have already contacted her and that there may, therefore, be consequences for you. (See my post to you on Jacoby's thread if you haven't already.)

As for me, my position concerning you will be strengthened by any action she may choose to take.

Continued silence on your part won't work, this time. Only the apology demanded by me on Jacoby's thread will stop me from contacting Dr. Masumian. Only that and nothing else.

The apology, moreover, is to be posted on every thread on this blog, including this one.

Again, be aware, others may have already contacted her or may yet do so. She may respond with a post of her own, and in any other way she chooses, some not so good for you or for WaPo.

As for me, I've given you a chance. Were I you, and thank the Universe, DNA, etc., I am not, I would apologize immediately to all you are directed to apologize to and in the manner I described.

Farnaz Masumian with at least seven aliases to include her straw man "stadtbear" continues her obfuscating ranting
to distract from her dishonesty.

Read the previous websites at the Susan Jacoby thread as
provided by an "Islamic Shadow Group"(topic related)/Google and you will see what we mean.

Her only book (*** Life After Death: A Study of the Afterlife in World Religions) apparently did not receive much use or interest as it is only found in the holdings of two libraries in the entire state of Pennsylvania.

Talibanization of the largest city of Pakistan begins in ernest, and the Pakistanis are helpless. Once they are in power, and they will be soon enough then they and their allies around the worlds Islam will be at war with us openly whether we are at war with Islam or not.

**********************************
http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/columnists/ardeshir-cowasjee-the-price-of-moral-cowardice

Later in February 1948, a broadcast to the people of the US: “In any case, Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state — to be ruled by priests with a divine mission.” — Jinnah.

Deliverance into the hands of the theocrats came a mere six months after the death of Jinnah, the delivery made by the man who had succeeded him as the leader of his nation. The Objectives Resolution was adopted on March 12, 1949 by the constituent assembly of Pakistan, proposed by the prime minister, Liaquat Ali Khan. It clearly and unambiguously declared that religion had much to do with the business of the state. There could be no recovery, as history has proven over the past 60 years.
.....
Now, only the US and the rest of the world can step in — we, in nuclear Pakistan, can do nothing but wait and see which way the cards fall. We, including the legislators, are all helpless, they by choice, we by default.

Footnote: Karachi is already feeling the Taliban pinch. Co- educational schools in Defence, Clifton and Saddar areas are known to have received visits and been threatened if they do not change, others have been sent letters with the same message.
********************************

DAILY ALIAS ALERT:

The commentary from Spark1 is probably from Farnaz Masumian.

Other aliases used by Farnaz in the past:

Observer12 aka Observer31 aka Yael1 aka ivri5678 aka Billy8 aka
nadinebatra aka stadtbear aka ????

Farnaz was caught "red handed" using most of these aliases some threads ago.

Jamil and Spark1 quote kafirs to praise Muhammad. The kafirs praising Muhammad did not accept Muhammad as the prophet and remained Kafirs. Actions do speak louder than words. What does the original biographer of Muhammad tell about Muhammad's wealth and position at his death? The man had more than 11 wives and each wife had her own "establishment" i.e. a large house and slaves to tend to her. Aisha, Muhammad's child bride, frees 40 slaves that were given to her from 1/5 of the war booty that was Muhammad's share at one go!! Muhammad's wives owned thousands of slaves. The silliness of Rao potrait of poor Muhammad is something that only the poor indian muslims indulge in. Read 23 years by Ali Dashti to see how absolutely filthy rich beyond human imagination Muhammad and his companions became as Islam rolled out.

Jamil says: "Now if the muslims believe in Quran what pain it gives people like you?. Can you leave the people of Pakistan to worry for themselves."

Kafirs should know that the Quran calls for unambiguously and repeatedly for the subjugation or killing of Kafirs who will not pay jiziya or submit to Islam.

9.29: YUSUFALI: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

That is why we see the following news coming out of Pakistan:
http://www.duniyalive.com/?p=16293
Hangu, Apr 15 (ANI): Pakistan Taliban has forcibly occupied 10 houses of Sikhs in lower Orakzai Agency of the Federally Administered Tribal Areas, took their leader as hostage for ransom and demanded Rs.50 million as Jiziya (religious tax) from them.

Residents of Ferozekhel area in Lower Orakzai Agency said on Tuesday that around 10 Sikh families left the agency after the demand by the Taliban, who said they were a minority and liable to pay the tax for living in the area in accordance with sharia. ......

*************************************

U.S. a Christian nation at war with Islam?

The problem is more serious than that.

What is occurring is that slowly but surely Western Civilization's classical heritage--Greeks, Romans and then the Renaissance and the scientific revolution which owe so much to the classical world--has been outstripping the Judeo-Christian strain within Western civilization and opening quite a big gulf with the Islamic world.

Not speaking of the Islamic world for a moment and just considering Christianity and Western civilization's classical heritage, we notice first of all that the Judeo-Christian strain is an import into the Western world and not native. The Judeo-Christian strain was superimposed on the Greek and Roman Legacy and dominated to a remarkable degree native traditions, but then slowly but surely it has become apparent that the Western heritage from the classical world on has been reasserting itself and overcoming the import of religion derived from the near east.

Today Christianity is in somewhat of a pathetic aspect compared to Western civilization's classical tradition and like thrust. Take recent comments for example on whether Christianity is dying in the Western world. First of all we have the old arrogance of the Judeo-Christian strain which says Christianity is above politics and should not be involved in the political arena. This is obviously not only putting on airs but a lie. First of course the airs of superiority and then the lie that politics will not be entered--a lie because Western civilization's classical tradition onward will not relent and Christianity will not be able to keep from forcing itself through politics in an attempt to survive.

So right away we can see that the import into the Western world from the near east--Judeo-Christianity of course--is having problems surviving, and it is not difficult to expect that Islam will have an even more difficult problem. Christianity actually occupies somewhat of a "middle" position between Western civilization's classical heritage and Islam. Christianity helps Western civilization's classical tradition even as it itself is threatened by it. But Christianity is bowing before the classical tradition in the West rather than preserving what ascendence it had and somewhat clashing with the Muslim world. But really above Christianity and Islam we have the ever greater thrust of the Western world's classical tradition.

Christianity really is not in the battle between the West and Islam. Now taking Islam in relationship with the West we have a peculiar phenomenon. Of course the Western classical world existed before Islam. But then the classical world collapsed, the Judeo-Christian strain within Western civilization asserted itself and we are told that the Islamic world was heir to the riches of the Western classical world and that the West except for Christianity fell into barbarity. Christianity was really at war with Islam once, but we can see now that probably all along it was really the classical world and its heritage that was at war with Islam.

To be clearer, I am not one of those people who believe that the Islamic world not only was heir to the Western classical tradition but preserved said tradition and eventually passed it on to the West--saving said tradition for the West. The way I see it is that the classical world collapsed, Christianity rose, and although the Islamic world did receive riches from the classical world the Islamic world really did not make great use of such because no Renaissance as in the West let alone a scientific revolution occurred. On the contrary the classical tradition from the West into the Islamic world was always clearly subordinated to Islam and it has been so ever since. The Islamic world rose only so far. Furthermore, and to bring the point home, I suspect that the Islamic world did away with more classical tradition manuscripts than saved for the Western world. The Islamic world has really never come to grips--never relented--when in relationship to the Western world.

To be clearer, the Judeo-Christian tradition dominated in the West more than the classical Western tradition dominated in the Islamic world. The Islamic world pretty much kept its foot on the classical Western tradition, and as the classical Western tradition has reasserted itself in the West and come to dominate Christianity the Islamic world has been kept even further behind and resorts to such comments as having been once more civilized than the West and as having saved for the West its own classical tradition.

No need to add any more really except to say the obvious: certain people today are saying that the West is not in conflict with the Islamic world but only in conflict with Islamic fundamentalists who are "hijacking" the Islamic world. That is not only a lie, it is a logical impossibility. As the West strips off the import of Judeo-Christianity from itself and rises into a superexpanded and developed version of its own classical tradition it cannot help but clash with the Islamic world and in fact reveal to a great degree how much it was a lie that long ago the Islamic world respected the Western classical tradition and in fact saved said tradition for the West.

The battle today between the West and Islam is between the strain from the classical tradition passing through the Renaissance and culminating in the scientific revolution and a religion even more primitive and fundamentalist than the Judeo-Christian tradition. Only two outcomes are possible. Either the Western classical tradition onward outstrips Islam as it has largely outstripped the Judeo-Christian tradition, or the classical tradition will find itself falling as Christianity reasserts itself within Western civilization and Islam pounds from the outside. In other words, as the classical tradition fails Christianity will find itself ironically on the side of the Islamic world until of course the Western classical tradition is not a factor and then the Judeo-Christian world alone will exist and in contrast with the Islamic world. But as the Western classical tradition outstrips Christianity within the Western world Christianity is undecided whether to sympathize with Islam against the Western world or help the Western world against Islam in the misguided belief that it--the Judeo-Christian tradition--owns the Western world.

So there we have it: it is not so much Christianity against the Islamic world as the purity of Western civilization--her true creations from her true soil--which is at battle with Islam. From the classical world through the Renaissance to the scientific world the West has been outstripping all worlds and is parallel only to those worlds who match it, such as Asians such as the Japanese, Koreans, Chinese, etc.---essentially really all of the Asiatic world including probably India. The West really is at war with Islam--a more serious and evident war than any Christian crusaders against the Islamic world. And my prediction is that the Islamic world will fall and that the people in those areas will have to take Western traditions to itself as the Asiatic world has. But the battle could get pretty rough. I make no predictions as to the severity of the battle. I just believe that except for some Asiatic strains that the purity of the Western world--her classical tradition onward--is the crowning glory of the world, and that if this crowning glory must be dealt with, it can only be dealt with by accepting and truly building on it--and not saying such things as the Islamic world says, namely that it not only was heir to but really applied the Greek and Roman teachings and can do so in fact with any Western traditions and that these traditions are not only compatible with Islam but can exist under Islam.

The West is at war with Islam and the West will win. And we will go beyond the moon to mars. And we will discover and create this and that. And we will succeed in making a glory of our little blue, white and green planet. Such is a recent meditation on the Western world and its relationship to more than Islam.

Not only was Mr. Obama following on Article 11 of the 1797 Treaty of Tripoli.

Most important is the FACT that what he said is true. Just because as Christians we are the majority of the religious adherents, that does not automatically made the rest of the populace in the nation also christians. Life experience, the daily news, common sense, the most simple logic, and history have demonstrated beyond any doubt that many claimed to be christians and were not.

Many others within Christianity are confused, misled and in grave sin. This is nothing new under the sun again. Even by the end of the first century, the church had been infiltrated by false teachers. By the end of the 2nd century confusion, heresy, and falsehood was very much a fact of life whithin Christianity.

The ludicrous attempt by so many, to baptize an entire nation like this into Christendom has proven futile beyond measure. Violence has always been a trait through the history of this dear Country. Sexual immorality, predjudice, bigotry. Theft, even in the church is a historical fact.

The President Mr. Obama, appears not to be like his predecesor, who was well known for opening his mouth well before his brain was engaged to speak. So he is right and accurate when he said that.

"...[The Prophet] conquered and subjugated minds, spirits, hearts, and souls. He became the beloved of hearts, the teacher of minds, the trainer of souls, and the ruler of spirits." - Bediuzzaman Said Nursi; The Words

"Prophet Muhammad, upon him be peace, proclaimed true freedom to humanity, and ingrained in human consciousness that all human beings are equal before the law. He established that superiority lies in virtue, piety, and morality. He regarded proclaiming the truth against all oppressors and oppressive thought as a kind of worship." - M. Fethullah Gulen; Pearls of Wisdom

"...without a standing army, without a bodyguard, without a palace, without a fixed revenue; if ever any man had the right to say that he ruled by the right divine, it was Mohammed, for he had all the power without its instruments and without its supports." - Bosworth Smith;Mohammad and Mohammadanism

"Four years after the death of Justinian was born at Mecca, in Arabia the man who, of all men exercised the greatest influence upon the human race...Muhammad..." - John William Draper; A History of the Intellectual Development of Europe

"I have studied him - the wonderful man - and in my opinion far from being an anti-Christ he must be called the savior of humanity." - George Bernard Shaw; The Genuine Islam

GLADERUNNER ~ You bring up some good arguments, but strictly from a humanistic viewpoint. My answers to you will be posted bit by bit over several days, or at least until this blog thread shuts down.

The first part is an attempt to explain what took place in heaven; about free will; and the consequences of disobeying/rejecting God.

Lucifer/Satan (Isaiah 14) was one of the most beautiful of the created beings (angels) who lived in harmony with God. However, he became proud and supposed himself to greater than God. Lucifer was eventually cast out of heaven and drew a third of the angels with him (Revelation 12). Now, if God was the tyrant that you suppose Him to be, He could have annihilated Satan and his followers, but then the remaining angels would have served Him out of fear. Now, who wants to worshiped by fear only? God is Love and He loves us and wants us to love Him in return.

Do you have children? Do you want them to love you? Because you love them don't you lay down some restrictions because you know the dire results if they follow their own inclinations? You know; don't play in the street; don't play with a loaded gun; wash your raw fruit and veggies before you eat them; don't run around with the wrong crowd; don't drink and drive; etc, etc. If you love your children you will discipline them from time to time to try and correct their behavior. But, of course, you don't want to take away their free will or to break their spirit beyond repair. So, you hope that they will obey you because they love you and realize that you have their best interests at heart. You hope they will accept that you, because of your age and experience, are wiser than they. But if they reject you and scoff at your instructions then, when they reach a certain age, you have to let them go and let them learn for themselves. It doesn't mean that you no longer love them, but you are letting them exercise their free will. If their rebelliousness results in death or injury, it's not because you condemned them, but it's because they refused to abide under your protective umbrella.

God is real and so is Satan. To deny and/or reject God is to play into the hands of the devil whose sole desire is to destroy you and take you with himself into the bottomless pit. God does not condemn you, you condemn yourself.

JOHN 3:16-21 ~ For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

More, much more to come

Abhab and company

You already got the reply and I agree to it.
You and your mentors may be passing through Islamophobia, I suggest before you get mad see a doctor. Take ali sina the creeper with you too.
You must be frustrated to know that I know all of you before you introduce you bunch in your post.

The personality of Prophet Muhammad as seen by Non-Muslims:
"The 100 - a Ranking of the Most Influential Person in History" by Michael H. Hart, a Christian American, an astronomer, a mathematician, a chess master, and a scientist. After extensive research, he rated prophet Muhammad (PBUH) as number one and to be considered as the most influential single figure in human history.
"My choice of Muhammad to lead the list of the world's most influential person may surprise some readers and may be questioned by others, but he was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both the religious and secular levels. It is probable that the relative influence of Muhammad on Islam has been larger than the combined influence of Jesus Christ and St. Paul on Christianity. Furthermore, Muhammad (unlike Jesus) was a secular as well as religious leader. In fact, as the driving force behind the Arab conquests, he may well rank as the most influential political leader of all time. It is this unparalleled combination of secular and religious influence, which I feel, entitles Muhammad to be considered the most influential single figure in human history."
Mahatma Gandhi, speaking on the character of Muhammad, (pbuh) says in (Young India):
"I wanted to know the best of one who holds today's undisputed sway over the hearts of millions of mankind. I became more than convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the Prophet, the scrupulous regard for his pledges, his intense devotion to this friends and followers, his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and in his own mission. These and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted every obstacle. When I closed the 2nd volume (of the Prophet's biography), I was sorry there was not more for me to read of the great life."

Abhab

Your posts shows that really you are a lunatic void of any decency.
You are a bundle of stinking garbage from toe to head.
I invite the readers to read your post and then mine to justify what I have commented about you.

Abhab

Your reference to ali sina is a old rotten story now.You and others like arif belongs to the same group and your foolish offer of that money have no relevency to a decent discussion.
Show me your own religion or beliefs and I see how brave you are to defend them. It is very easy to criticize others views.

Your boss is a paid stooge and everyone knows that.let him sleep in his bill he may have not need sunlight from 2004 onward.

Spark:

Why quote a 19th Century Englishman about the qualities of the Muslims’ prophet and not find a 21st Century Muslim who would accept Ali Sina’s challenge of $50,000 posted on “Faithfreedom.org” . He or she has only to disprove any of Sina's charges that Islam's prophet was "a narcissist, a misogynist, a rapist, a pedophile, a lecher, a torturer, a mass murderer, a cult leader, an assassin, a terrorist, a mad man and a looter.

DO NOT SMEAR THE FACTS

The stature of the Prophet (PBUH) is great indeed; as the author of the book "Islam and Modern Age" a Hindu professor wrote the following about Prophet Muhammad (PBUH):
"The personality of Muhammad! It is most difficult to get into the truth of it. Only a glimpse of it I can catch. What a dramatic succession of picturesque scenes. There is Muhammad the Prophet, there is Muhammad the General; Mohammad the King; Muhammad the Warrior; Muhammad the Businessman; Mohammad the Preacher; Mohammad the Philosopher; Mohammad the Statesman; Mohammad the Spokesperson; Mohammad the reformer; Muhammad the Refuge for orphans; Muhammad the Protector of slaves; Mohammad the Emancipator of woman; Muhammad the husband; Muhammad the father; Muhammad the educator; Muhammad the Law-giver; Muhammad the Judge; Muhammad the Saint and etc. In all these magnificent roles, in all these departments of human activities, he is like a hero! Orphan hood is an extreme form of helplessness and his life upon this earth began with it; Kingship is the height of material power and it ended with it! From an orphan boy to a persecuted refugee and then to an overlord, spiritual as well as temporal, of a whole nation and arbiter of its destinies, with all its trials and temptations, with all its vicissitudes and changes, its lights and shades, its ups and downs, its terror and splendor, he has withstood the fire of the world and came out unscathed to serve as a model in every face of life. His achievements are not limited to one aspect of life, but cover the whole field of human conditions."
A POOR SHEPHERD PEOPLE, ROAMING UNNOTICED IN ITS DESERTS SINCE THE CREATION OF THE WORLD: A HERO-PROPHET WAS SENT DOWN TO THEM WITH A WORD THEY COULD BELIEVE: SEE, THE UNNOTICED BECOMES WORLD-NOTABLE, THE SMALL HAS GROWN WORLD-GREAT; WITHIN ONE CENTURY AFTERWARDS, ARABIA IS AT GRENADA (Spain) ON THIS HAND, AT DELHI (India) ON THAT; -GLANCING IN VALOUR AND SPLENDOUR AND THE LIGHT OF GENIUS, ARABIA SHINES THROUGH LONG AGES OVER A GREAT SECTION OF THE WORLD. BELIEF IS GREAT, LIFE-GIVING. THE HISTORY OF A NATION BECOMES FRUITFUL, SOUL ELEVATING, GREAT, SO SOON AS IT BELIEVES. THESE ARABS, THE MAN MAHOMET, AND THAT ONE CENTURY, -IS IT NOT AS IF A SPARK HAD FALLEN, ONE SPARK, ON A WORLD OF WHAT SEEMED BLACK UNNOTICEABLE SAND; BUT LO, THE SAND PROVES EXPLOSIVE POWDER, BLAZES HEAVEN HIGH FROM DELHI TO GRENADA! I SAID, THE GREAT MAN WAS ALWAYS AS LIGHTNING OUT OF HEAVEN; THE REST OF MEN WAITED FOR HIM LIKE FUEL, AND THEN THEY TOO WOULD FLAME."
Thus concluded the speech of Thomas Carlyle, one of the greatest thinkers of the past century. It was Friday, the 8th of May 1840. His theme — "The Hero as Prophet" His audience: were Anglicans — English Christians.

Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) - Untainted and Pure
"After the fall of Mecca, more than one million square miles of land lay at his feet. Lord of Arabia, he mended his own shoes and coarse woolen garments, milked the goats, swept the earth, kindled the fire and attended the other menial offices of the family. The entire town of Medina where he lived grew in wealth in the later days of his life. Everywhere there was gold and silver in plenty and yet in those days of prosperity many weeks would elapse without a fire being kindled in the hearth of the king of Arabia; his food being dates and water. His family would go hungry many nights successively because they could not get anything to eat in the evening. He slept on no soft bed but on a palm mat, after a long busy day to spend most of his night in prayer, often bursting into tears before his Creator to grant him strength to discharge his duties. As the reports go, his voice would get choked with weeping and it would appear as if a cooking pot was on fire and boiling had commenced. On the very day of his death his only assets were few coins a part of which went to satisfy a debt and rest was given to a needy person who came to his house for charity. The clothes in which he breathed his last breath had many patches. The house from where light had spread to the world was in darkness because there was no oil in the lamp. Circumstance changed, but the Prophet of God did not. In victory or in defeat, in power or in adversity, in affluence or in indigence, he is the same man, disclosed the same character. Like all the ways and laws of God, Prophets of God are unchangeable."
Professor Ramakrishna Rao, "Islam and Modern Age"

We are at war not only with fanatics of all religious and non- religious stripes but also at war with the foundations of all groups who like Islam believe violence is justified to spread their inane ideas.

e.g.

(only for the eyes of all Muslims who have not seen)

Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, who also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels"/"pretty, wingie thingies" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the massacre in Mumbai, the assassinations of Bhutto and Theo Van Gogh, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.

And who funds this muck and stench of terror?

The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

Current crises:
The Sunni-Shiite blood feud and the warmongering, womanizing (11 wives), hallucinating founder.

Akafir

All your reasoning is illogical. Everyone in life follows certain principles, whether he belongs to any school of thought. Now if the muslims believe in Quran what pain it gives people like you?. Can you leave the people of Pakistan to worry for themselves.
Sitting in another continent and becoming a freelance critic is one thing, the Govt of Pakistan is facing the ground realities and knows how to deal with the situation.
Fifth columinsts like you, only spread choas in the name of peace.
When the BJP hindu extemist party exploded experimental atomic bombs you did't bother but now day dreaming and creating your own apprehensions makes you fearful about 100 atomic bombs.
This forum is for free thinking persons who want to exchange their views for brain stroming and not for propaganda purpose.

@Athena4:

I agree that we are not at war with Islam. However, it is misleading to call who we are fighting "fanatics" who are "merely" using Islam as justification. Sadly you do not understand Islam. The Quran and the Hadeeth, the "scriptures" of Islam clearly and unambiguously declare an eternal war between those who submit to Islam and the non-muslims. These so called fanatics are merely insisting that those who call themselves muslims also follow these verses of the Islamic scriptures, and when they do not that it is legitimate to declare them Kafirs. These so called fanatics have not killed a muslim in their own view; they have killed muslims who had chosen to become kafirs by not following the Quran. The reason why these fanatics have such support in Muslim countries is because they support what they say by showing it in the Quran. The moderates on the other hand do not have a clear answer for why so much of the Quran that calls for harshness and killing of the kaafirs should be ignored. That is the crux of why Pakistan is being lost to the Taliban. The taliban have combined the religious zeal with the class warfare zeal to demolish the old feudal system of Pakistan. Pakistan with it 100 nuclear weapons will be ruled by who you call fanatics in the not too distant future.

gladerunner,

Great rebuttal to NIKOSD99. So sensible.

America says in God we trust. Let's look at how we Christians have do that in the pass 8 years. We now know Bush lied and we do Torture men, woman and even children. We has shown hate and even spread lies and chaos around the World. We invade Iraq and murdered 151,000 people as they slept in their beds. We displaced 5 million Iraq people. We allow Bush/Cheney to rob 11 Trillion dollars of taxpayers money. Law Makers and Pasters using God's Name committed immoral sins as we said nothing. But the worse is how Bush memos to of how we tortured innocent children. What kind of human let alone Christian allows that to happen? Who are we? For those who did read the bible Matthew 27:24,25 shows we didn't learn a thing. As the Christians demaded Jesue put to death all said let his blood come upon us and upon our children. God has watched for 8 years as Satan has ruled the United States of America using God's Name in vain. Yes we will pray for forgiveness but we will pay for the horror we have done. As we see today hate runs deep in America as is shown by the attacks on President Obama. May God have mercy on the United States and it's citizens.

Actually, to declare this a "Christian Nation" would be going against not only what this country was founded on but also what Jesus taught and why Jesus, God-Incarnate, became One of us.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

We are not at war with Islam. We ARE at war with fanatics who use Islam as a justification for killing others - including their fellow Muslims.

It would do well (especially for Christians, myself included) to look at the context of Obama’s “not a Christian nation” statement before jumping to conclusions. He made this statement in answering a question on US-Turkish antiterrorism cooperation. Obama prefaces this statement by referring to the US as a “predominantly Christian nation” and Turkey as a “predominantly Muslim nation”, and stating that cooperation between two such nations can be a “model partnership”. Obama then adds, “although as I mentioned, we have a very large Christian population, we do not consider ourselves a Christian nation or a Jewish nation or a Muslim nation; we consider ourselves a nation of citizens who are bound by ideals and a set of values”. He then draws a parallel between the US and Turkey in that both are examples of a “secular country that is respectful of religious freedom, respectful of rule of law, respectful of freedom, upholding these values and being willing to stand up for them in the international stage”. It is indeed that secular nature of our democracy has protected the right of private religious worship. The great thing about our nation is that this freedom of worship is extended to all, regardless of faith or lack of it. I do happen to be religious; and thank God it’s not because the government has forced it upon me!

Gladerunner;

I recently went a few rounds with Dr.Willis Elliott on his blog. I had him on the ropes, when I got cut off. Couldn't get a comment in, neither long nor short. I was cut from all blogs for about a week, til yesterday when I was allowed in again.
Makes me think that Dr E was able to throw a switch or more likely phone someone who could. (Unless God intervened,course.) From his tone I could tell he was fit to strangle me, or burn me at the stake. I was telling him the truth that I had raised five atheists by not indoctrinating them into a religion. He just couldn't deal with that.

Just thought I'd pass that on. They CAN block us.

NIKOSD99:
I doubt seriously Ms. Thistlethwaite is blocking your posts, more likely they exceed a certain length, I’m not sure what the magic number is. A couple of my longer posts have come back ‘pending review’ and never showed up. By cutting them into smaller parts though they posted immediately.

Before I start rebutting your responses I thought I’d point out an interesting couple of lines from your post.
1. “Even God does not force Himself on anyone. He gives us freewill”
2. “When we Christians are taken out, either by The Rapture or, by persecutions and martyrdom like the early Church, then you will see horrors unimaginable”
I don’t suppose you see the contradiction there?
God doesn’t force himself on us, we have free will. But if we exercise that ‘free’ will, if we choose not to worship him, he will destroy the nation with unimaginable and eternal horrors.
That sir is not free will. That is extortion; the threat of supreme, terrible and mighty punishment simply for not loving him enough. He wants all of us to love him, worship him and devote our lives to his holy name. Those that do will be rewarded; those that don’t will be punished for all eternity without hope of pardon or parole. It’s not enough to reward the good and simply leave the dissenters be, no that’s not enough, he must make them suffer for all time.
Would you ever offer this kind of deal to your spouse or children, or even your pets? Love me completely and fully, praise my name or I will torture you forever? Would you actually consider that giving your loved ones free will?

“This nation has turned it's back on God” The nation does not have a soul. It is not an entity it is a collective of individuals. Does God judge individuals or does he judge nations? Does he judge nations based on how many in that nation worship him or is it all or nothing? 75% of this nation claim to be Christian. Is that simply not enough? Why hasn’t God wiped out the entire Asian continent? Christianity is a tiny, tiny minority over there. Where’s the hand of god and unimaginable horrors in Asia, Africa, Indonesia?
“Witness the million+ unborn slaughtered every year”
Nearly one half of all fertilized human eggs never make it to birth due to ‘natural’ circumstances. I assume then that since god ensouls us at conception, knows every hair on our head, knows when a single bird falls from the sky, created us in his own image, then god is slaughtering many more unborn then we are. What happen to the souls of the aborted/miscarried? Does god reject or punish them?
“The homosexuals parading in the streets”
There it is, I knew this was hovering around nearby.
How is this my responsibility? Will god punish me and my family, kill my mother, father, brothers and sister, wipe out babies and nursing mothers because the gays hold some parades? Seriously? Wow, this ‘free will’ thing sure has a lot of fine print.
“Divorce, heterosexual adultery and fornication is commonplace”
And always has been, everywhere. Yet god has yet to destroy this nation, or any nation, even those that reject him completely. You and your religion are full of empty threats.
“Evolution is being taught exclusively as to our origins”
No, evolution is taught as the mechanism for evolution. It is, if you are a believer, apparently the mechanism that god used to assemble living things. You dare dispute god’s mechanism for assembling life?
“Creation science is not even allowed to be debated”
Because creationism is not science, it is religion. And frankly, it’s been debated again, and again, and again for decades.
“Prayers are not allowed even at high school sporting events.”
Any person at any school or school sporting event anywhere in the U.S. is allowed to pray and you know it. Please say what you actually mean. You are upset because state sponsored prayer is no longer allowed, or perhaps mandatory. Oh that’s right you’re not trying to force anything on anyone. You see Nikosd99, yes you ARE trying to force it on everyone. You’re not happy with individuals being allowed to pray whenever and wherever they want, no, it only counts if a state employee, a designated and mandatory authority figure LEADS the class/team in open, public Christian prayer.
“in the 1940s. when I was in Junior High, we were still praying and reading from the Bible in the classroom. That's what made this a great country”
That’s your perspective, it’s hardly unanimous though. Ask the blacks about the ‘40s. Ask the women, ask the Japanese Americans that were gathered up and held hostage. Ask the Native Americans we all but wiped out a few decades earlier. Ask the Jews in Europe. How about all those good Christian kids that fell to polio, Remember polio? Remember smallpox? I’m glad the 40’s were so good for you, but god apparently chose that decade to bless some groups of people quite a bit more than others. Lucky you.
“ We were enjoying God's blessings”
As long as you were a healthy white adult male, I am sure you were.

More later.

TO GLADERUNNER (from Thistlethwaite's blog)

GLADERUNNER: Just so you understand, I am not advocating forced Christianity on anybody. Never have and never will. Even God does not force Himself on anyone. He gives us freewill. When the Lord Jesus was born there was no room at the inn. Joseph could have tried to force his way in by proclaiming that the Messiah/Saviour was about to be born. But, he didn't do that. Instead, he went to where there was room, in a lowly stable. Jesus is still the same. He stands at the door of your heart and knocks. You either invite Him in or you don't. The choice is yours.

You stated, "Of all you dominionists I´ve debated this with, I´ve yet to have it explained to me what the end game of the christian nation movement is. What is it that you plan to do with this nation and it´s laws should you ever attain it?"

I'll try to explain it to you from my viewpoint. You can count your blessings because of Christians. When God appeared onto Abraham in the plains of Mamre to inform him of His intentions to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah, Abraham pleaded with Him because his nephew, Lot, lived there. Abraham asked if He would still destroy it if He found fifty righteous persons living there. God said that He would spare the cities if He found fifty righteous there. Well, Abraham knew there were not fifty there so he asked how about forty, then thirty, then twenty, and finally, how about ten? God had agreed not to destroy the place if he found ten righteous there. Alas, there were not even ten and you know the rest of the story. Only Lot and his family were spared. You can read the entire account in Genesis 18.

This nation has turned it's back on God. Witness the million+ unborn slaughtered every year. The homosexuals parading in the streets and winning rights to bring their agenda into the classrooms of even our grade schools. Divorce, heterosexual adultery and fornication is commonplace. Evolution is being taught exclusively as to our origins. Creation science is not even allowed to be debated. Prayers are not allowed even at high school sporting events. And please don't tell me that is the way it has always been because in the 1940s. when I was in Junior High, we were still praying and reading from the Bible in the classroom. That's what made this a great country. We were enjoying God's blessings. Yes, we were even allowed to sing, "God Bless America" in our assemblies.

Psalm 33:10-12 states, "The LORD bringeth the counsel of the heathen to nought: he maketh the devices of the people of none effect. The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations. Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD; and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance."

And also, 2 Chronicles 7:14 "If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land."

I'll cut this short. When we Christians are taken out, either by The Rapture or, by persecutions and martyrdom like the early Church, then you will see horrors unimaginable. So, my answer to your question about our game plan. It's to stay the Hand of God from destroying this ungodly nation by trying to bring it back to Him. And, in the attempt to do so, it is our hope to win souls to Jesus Christ, our Lord.

Tomorrow I may write about your other comments about the Constitution.

Islam is here on this planet for the last 1400 years. It is a practicing religion, not just based on Friday prayers or else rituals. Is this something new which came to light after 9/11 only?.
As a matter of fact mankind is once again turning towards religion. The neo-con and Bush Blair lead the world to wage wars based on their religious beliefs.
Then there is a revival of extreme Hinduism in India but as usual until now no one bother about it. The Jews are punishing Palestinians because of their religious convictions. In such a climate there is nothing unusual to be discovered about Islam.
What secular views the American state cherished do not matter as much as the alarming point that when an American President comes in guise with hidden religious extreme sentiments then he can wage dangerous wars in the world and even one which can lead to a third world war.

Islam is a religion practiced by more than one billion people, no one can finish them by might or otherwise.
It is even more difficult to change the local culture and values which are being practiced by the people in different parts of the world. If we have any fear this is our own created, we have the right to secure our selves and our homeland but we do not have the right to wage wars in far flung place based upon false apprehensions.

You cannot win any war anywhere without the support of the people of the land, what ever their belief might be, in present day it is Islam so all the grudge for not winning is against Islam.

Islam is here on this planet for the last 1400 years. It is a practicing religion, not just based on Friday prayers or else rituals. Is this something new which came to light 9/11?.
As a matter of fact mankind is once again turning towards religion. The neo-con and Bush Blair lead the world to start a war based on their religious beliefs.
There is a revival of extreme Hinduism in India but as usual until now no one bother about it. The Jews are punishing Palestinians because of their religious convictions. In such a climate there is nothing unusual to be discovered about Islam.
What secular views the American state cherished is not so noticeable but the alarming point is that when a American President comes in guise with hidden religious extreme sentiments then he can wage dangerous wars in the world and even one to a third world war which can finish all of us.

Islam is a religion practiced by more than one billion people, no one can finish them by might or otherwise.
It is even more difficult to change the local culture and values which are being practiced by the people in different parts of the world. If we have any fear this is our own created, we have the right to secure our selves and our homeland but we do not have the right to wage wars in far flung place based upon false apprehensions.

You cannot win any war anywhere without the support of the people of the land what ever they believe, in present day it is Islam so all the grudge for not winning is against Islam.

If all Muslims are inherently evil, then what the hell are we trying to achieve in Iraq? What did Bush hope to solve by removing Saddam from power? Are we supposed to convert every Muslim in that country to Christianity? Or should we just line up every Muslim man, woman, and child and shoot them?

Did all of our soldiers die in a vain effort to bring civility to a land that cannot be civilized? Because that is the only logical conclusion one can draw if we assume that anyone who follows the Islamic religion is our enemy and wants to destroy us.

The values and morals of ANY religion have absolutely no place in politics with respect establishing public policy or writing legislation. We need to focus on ETHICAL behavior and leave morals in the church and within every individual's home.

We were never a "Christian" nation. Neither are we a "Caucasian" nation or an "Anglo" nation. The notion that one group of religions is more American than any other is contrary to the tenets established by our founding fathers when they endorsed the "separation of church and state" as a fundamental concept in the US Constitution.

Long before it was popular let alone acceptible I wanted an end to the "War on Islam" mentalty. But because of recent new from Af-Pak it's hard for me to want dialogue with Muslam's when is seems Muslams sympathetic to the Taiban's views more than the west's view.

Abhab

Do not give the impression to the readers that you lives in the States. You are a hindu extremist blinded by the hate for Islam, Your several posts on this forum is evidence to this fact.

Nothing new under the Sun!

The current president just followed the groundwork set by the Treaty of Tripoli in 1797.

Article 11 of the Treaty states the following: "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

Authored by American diplomat Joel Barlow in 1796, the treaty was sent to the floor of the Senate, June 7, 1797, where it was read aloud in its entirety and unanimously approved. John Adams then President, having seen the treaty, signed it and proudly proclaimed it to the Nation.

Again; Nothing new under the Sun.

We will be at war with whoever threatens our security or try by violence or deceit to replace our system of government.
If the Muslims belong to this category then we are at war with them. The excerpt cited below by a Muslim organization in this country looks suspiciously seditious enough.

“The process of settlement [of Islam in the United States] is a "Civilization-Jihadist" process with all the word means. The Ikhwan must understand that all their work in America is a kind of grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and "sabotaging" their miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God's religion is made victorious over all religions. Without this level of understanding, we are not up to this challenge and have not prepared ourselves for Jihad yet. It is a Muslim's destiny to perform Jihad and work wherever he is and wherever he lands until the final hour comes, and there is no escape from that destiny except for those who choose to slack”.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/opinion/columnists/rdreher/stories/DN-dreher_09edi.ART.State.Edition1.4235f88.html

The Bush –Cheney Rumsfeld axis of neo-con evil distracted the American from its glorious secular history. What President Obama is doing is correct but we have to wait and see for sometimes to come.
I do not see Christianity to be at war with Islam. In coming times the common opponent for monotheist religions will be Pagans and Kafirs.

We may not be at war with Islam, but let there be no doubt that "Islam" is at war with us. The undermining of secular democratic USA is the state goal of the Muslim Brotherhood, and muslim organizations like CAIR and ISNA subscribe to that goal.
Obama's bowing slavishly to Abdullah was not encouraging at all. Let us hope that it was temporary stupidity his part. Those at war with us likely consider that bowing and this speech as a sign of a personality that will crumple under stress, and will likely result in some real testing of Obama in the Muslim world.
I am keeping my fingers crossed at the deal that Ahmedinejad is going to offer soon. Will Obama really be resolute to defend American Interests or will he sell really short to be likeable and loveable?

We aren’t at war with Islam, ok … Who or what is it that is killing us since 9-1-1.

Obviously it’s not Saudi Arabia … Seeing that Pres. Obama bowed down to - and Pres. Bush held hands with - Saudi King Abdullah.

In view of these Presidents actions I now clearly see why the U.S. must resource alternative fuels.

As for this Nation not being Christian, Pres. Obama has no idea how close to the truth that is, Also it is naïve to say “Never” about onself let alone a sovereign Nation.

WMARKW,

You are so right. If we were energy independent, we would not need this part of the world. Our dependence on it is a national security risk. Our environment would also benefit. We would be getting two major benefits, but our politicians are hooked up with the oil companies.

CCNL,

Great post. I actually have no hope for Europe. I have relatives in Europe. I have visited. Muslims are setting up their own world in many of these countries. They are not assimilating. They are using Western values to undermine Western values. I have also read many serious books on Islamic fundamentalism, and they mirrored much of my own thinking about what is going on. We in the free world cannot let our hard won freedoms be taken away from us.

I cannot even fathom the barbarism comitted committed in the name of Islam. Barbarism is what it is. I am concerned that as more Muslims enter the U.S., we will have more trouble with their ways. The polticians and the media use tolerance and multi-culturism as reasons, rather than calling them excuses. There is no place in the U.S. for what has been done in the name of Islam and there never can be.

What BO should have said: (for those eyes that have not seen or understood)

Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, who also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels"/pretty-ugly wingie thingies" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the massacre in Mumbai, the assassinations of Bhutto and Theo Van Gogh, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.

And who funds this muck and stench of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

Current crises:

The Sunni-Shiite blood feud and the warmongering, womanizing (11 wives), hallucinating founder.

America should go to war with no religions and all theocracies.

Seeing our leader bow to the king of a land where a rape victim was sentenced (later commuted due to international reaction) to 200 lashes or where an 8-year-old is married to a man in his fifties to settle a family debt, is a disgrace.

I can hardly wait until America achieves energy independence, and we can start treating that country like the medieval barbarians they are.