Women as Leaders

Go your way and I'll go mine. We have no choice but to carry on. Let revenge find it's own way home. Justice takes care of what is beautiful and justice is always served. Some may mistake it and call it revenge. It can be cold.

Anonymous :
“Only You”

The winds of time may change
My love for you remains the same
There is no other love for me
My dear you are branded on my heart please believe
Like no other you fulfill what is inside of me
For loving you is what was meant to be
Our future together is what my heart foretells
Loving you is the satisfying of my heart’s empty well

Thank You for being so beautiful
You are branded on my heart so I believe in you
I am fulfilled with you as it should be
I'll wait for you until the time comes
Then when we are together I'll be there for you
No matter what the trials of life bring
I'll keep loving you and be your loyal one
Your best friend that you can count on until
The end and we can be what our love should be
Our love will never end
It will live on when we are all gone
The world needs such a love
As I need a beautiful woman such as you

This is beautiful.........

Unchanged : "The future is an adventure. Once blood is spilled there is no turning back. There is just going forward, without love living with loss. More losses will be planned and more blood will be spilled. Not much you can do other than support those who support you. The rest are doomed. It never changes and we never forget."

September 11, 2008 12:35 AM

Revengeful, revengeful, revengeful, it will eat you alive, a fact in life.

Think Swiss.
When in doubt about who will win, be neutral.
With love you always win, so there is no doubt and you can afford to be neutral. You can always do the right thing because you can't be compromised. That's the difference between politics and journalism. In journalism, it pays to be right. In politics it's all compromise at the expense of truth. That's why you have to be a crook to get rich in politics or marry up. In the end it's all for freedom and freedom for all.

Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
George Orwell

In our age there is no such thing as 'keeping out of politics.' All issues are political issues, and politics itself is a mass of lies, evasions, folly, hatred and schizophrenia.
George Orwell

A couple of things to get you thinking. Business is good.

It does sound rather Orwellian.

"All animals (people) are created equal, but some are more equal than others".

The future is an adventure. Once blood is spilled there is no turning back. There is just going forward, without love living with loss. More losses will be planned and more blood will be spilled. Not much you can do other than support those who support you. The rest are doomed. It never changes and we never forget.

I hate playing cat and mouse with people. I'm operating on a wing and a prayer. Have some pig for breakfast, don't bother with the lipstick though. Real lips don't need it. Then there's the kiss of death. Don't let the SOB's wear you down. Read my lips, no new taxes. All taxes are old. It's the same old story with a different ending. I'm going on vacation now. Avoid the toll roads, find the love. See you at the pub.

“Only You”

The winds of time may change
My love for you remains the same
There is no other love for me
My dear you are branded on my heart please believe
Like no other you fulfill what is inside of me
For loving you is what was meant to be
Our future together is what my heart foretells
Loving you is the satisfying of my heart’s empty well

Thank You for being so beautiful
You are branded on my heart so I believe in you
I am fulfilled with you as it should be
I'll wait for you until the time comes
Then when we are together I'll be there for you
No matter what the trials of life bring
I'll keep loving you and be your loyal one
Your best friend that you can count on until
The end and we can be what our love should be
Our love will never end
It will live on when we are all gone
The world needs such a love
As I need a beautiful woman such as you

"For God, too, history is an adventure, an open history for and of men and women." Ignorant! You wonder what makes these people write a word.

For God, the future is an adventure, an open future for and of women, children and men. Perfect!

The future is an adventure, a romantic adventure for all times and who could be against good times? The formula is to make the paper lighter and brighter and cheer the reader up. The news itself is grim enough, so you need something on every page to lighten their hearts. Heavy hearted readers tend to weigh things down. They are dead weight. An open future requires an open newspaper because a free people must have a free press. There are plenty of enemies to this concept. The pen is still mightier than the sword. That's how the future will be, even if God doesn't know there is a reporter out there he will remind. Look at United Airlines. It went back to the future and the future came to collect what was owed. This should be in the morning papers. There is a God and he is in the paper.

"Therefore the historical future is not known even to God; otherwise we
and our history would be merely a puppet show in which God holds the strings. For God, too, history is an adventure, an open history for and of men and women.""

I wrote something yesterday morning and then did something that could easily prove that entire statement wrong. It was an eleventh hour thing and a wing and a prayer. Thinking about it is one thing, actually taking action requires action and will. The intellectuals are usually right. The problem is that they are usually too late. By the time you get people to see the truth, the situation has changed so the problems get bigger and require more action. See the mortgage and airline industries for proof of this fact. It's an open future that is the adventure. It's the security of the next generation that matters. Without God there is no future, or at least no future worth consideration. The mortgage and airline industries are puppet shows and I am no puppet. God uses ropes, not strings to hang you high. Rope 'em cowboys.

I understand the knee and the tongue. Yesterday I write something and a little later in the morning I come across a female robin. She is injured and couldn't fly. I grab a box and get her into it. Now what? I see an older woman across the street talking with another woman and I think better check with the women on this situation. The question is do we put the bird out of her misery or do I take the bird to the doctor. The women say take it to the doctor. What's this going to cost? Then there is small talk and the woman says, maybe you talk too much. That's another story. A little more action. I get the bird secured, put it into the truck and we go to the animal hospital. A woman asks, do they treat wild birds here? On the wall is a print, Prayer for Wild Things. I say the writing is on the wall. Enough said. So sometimes it comes down to a knee and a tongue and yesterday it was a wing and a prayer. I don't know if they saved the bird or they didn't. I'm sure they did what they could for her and I could only do what I could do. It was totally unplanned, although what I wrote shortly before this all happened fit into the situation in a way I could not of planned. As my grandmother said, there's a will. I left out some details and what I wrote will need to remain a mystery. I think I might add some lines to it. I'll keep thinking about that knee and tongue Grace. For now I'm thinking about a wing and a prayer.

I understand the knee and the tongue. Yesterday I write something and a little later in the morning I come across a female robin. She is injured and couldn't fly. I grab a box and get her into it. Now what? I see an older woman across the street talking with another woman and I think better check with the women on this situation. The question is do we put the bird out of her misery or do I take the bird to the doctor. The women say take it to the doctor. What's this going to cost? Then there is small talk and the woman says, maybe you talk too much. That's another story. A little more action. I get the bird secured, put it into the truck and we go to the animal hospital. A woman asks, do they treat wild birds here? On the wall is a print, Prayer for Wild Things. I say the writing is on the wall. Enough said. So sometimes it comes down to a knee and a tongue and yesterday it was a wing and a prayer. I don't know if they saved the bird or they didn't. I'm sure they did what they could for her and I could only do what I could do. It was totally unplanned, although what I wrote shortly before this all happened fit into the situation in a way I could not of planned. As my grandmother said, there's a will. I left out some details and what I wrote will need to remain a mystery. I think I might add some lines to it. I'll keep thinking about that knee and tongue Grace. For now I'm thinking about a wing and a prayer.

If the question is asked in the context of cultural religion (the religious beliefs that developed over the years based on a cultural interpretation of anyone's scripture), it is a most interesting question and seems to have generated a lot of debate.

If the question is asked within the context of the radical theology of Jesus and Paul, it is the wrong question. Since both of them made no gender distinction in matters of leadership, it is a moot question. God cares a lot less about gender than God cares about the use of gifts for justice for the powerless and outcasts. In our culture that position is a most debated issue, but a position that narrows the discussion considerably.

Oh Yes, make not mistake GOD is in charge.

One day every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Every knee and Every tongue. What a day that will be.

I just met an angel golfing and she said she is watching Sally, so not to worry. You should of seen her drive the ball. She was using wood woods. There's a big country club up here and lots of trees to challenge a golfer. You can walk over the water hazards. No sand though. That is all at the beach.

I just met an angel golfing and she said she is watching Sally, so not to worry. You should of seen her drive the ball. She was using wood woods. There's a big country club up here and lot

I'm not saying give the kids powder kegs and matches and go crazy. A little cap gun and some paper caps never seemed to hurt any children. Then you get your little badge and boots. It's the New Frontier and you shoot it out. I know today the thing is paintball and you can damage an eyeball with a paintball. They don't want to wear the goggles. That seems more of a problem. Now the kids are actually taught to shoot each other and leave big splats of paint so it looks like a bloody mess. We had to imagine the blood and the guns made real noise.

"All of You"
It is good to be loved like no other knows
Time can not change what we share
What we know in our hearts to be true
Filling it with hope for the future
Loving each other with no conditions
Feeling you near wanting you here
Loving your soul
A great light shines and is love
It does not take all your heart
It gives all your peace a meaning
So it fills you with a new spirit
All the hate is gone
All is forgiven and victory is for sure
Love conquers all

I grew up then too. I remember the caps. I remember banging them with rocks to make them go off.

Sorry 66 - I think kids have plenty today - too much really, however, gunpowder would be off my wish list for them.

Do you have kids and grandkids - would you want them playing with gunpowder?

Scary

“Only You”

The winds of time may change
My love for you remains the same
There is no other love for me
My dear you are branded on my heart please believe
Like no other you fulfill what is inside of me
For loving you is what was meant to be
Our future together is what my heart foretells
Loving you is the satisfying of my heart’s empty well

Words of Wisdom from Edward Schillebeeckx, the famous contemporary theologian:

From his book, Church: The Human Story of God,
Crossroad, 1993, p.91 (softcover)

"Christians must give up a perverse, unhealthy and inhuman doctrine of predestination without in so doing making God the great scapegoat of history" .

"Nothing is determined in advance: in
nature there is chance and determinism; in the world of human activity there is possibility of free choices.

Therefore the historical future is not known even to God; otherwise we and our history would be merely a puppet show in which God holds the strings. For God, too, history is an adventure, an open history for and of men and women."

I grew up when the men gave the kids blasting caps to play with. Grains of powder on paper and you hammer it out. What does a kid get today? I had one of those rockets that you filled up with water, pumped it up and away it went into the air. Things were looking up and things should start looking up again. Give your kids gunpowder. They'll figure out early, so it's never too late to hear a bang.

Hey 66 and Above:

Sounds like you've taken one too many trips on the Spaceship - don't think you've been on the Faithship yet.

Grandma Barbs -

Maybe if you added the Mayor of a City and the Governor of a state to your resume - you would have been considered for VP - Oh yea - and you would need to have two more children - Oh yea - one with special needs.

Get over it.

Back to the main feature.
Is it hypocritical to think that a woman can lead a nation and not a congregation?
Everything depends on the person. For some it all depends on the religion. In the revolutionary USA women can be anything men can be, excluding professional sports of course, they are safer drivers because they drive more with kids.

Mr. Rogers is coaching little league here and the girls can play baseball with the boys. The girls won the game yesterday with three homers and a grand slam. Everybody shook hands after the game. We are golfing later. There's no tee time because there is no time to be concerned with here. Just timeless beauty and joyful play. It's fine just the way we are.

Who can even tell what the original question was for this blog - you peeps have gone crazy,

Yes, a woman can hold public office, yes a woman can teach in church - no she should not become clergy. The Word of God is very specific about that. It says nothing about holding public office and as Christians the Bible should be our standard.

I do think it's best for a woman to stay home and raise her family and take care of her husband, but there is nothing specific in the Word about it.

I'll say this Palin has sure got some feathers flying and I don't think it's just because she is a woman (a Christian one at that). I think allot of it has to do with sour grapes over Billary. Can you all just imagine her sitting home watching this unfold. I'll bet the night of the Palin's nomination she was going nuts. (And rightly so). Barry O and the Dems gave her the big SNUB - Goes to show how smart (NOT) he is - with her on the ticket there would have been no race. They would have walked into the White House. I think any Dems reading this should be ashamed over your Democratic choice for VP - Although he does have more experience that your Presidential nominee.

Stay tuned folks this is going to be a exciting couple of months.

God is in charge here not Dems, nor Reps. GOD. He knows exactly what's going on now and in the future. Praise HIM!

There are more women than men up here. It's just like earth. See world prison statistics for verification of this simple truth. We don't have any terrorists, which is a real break. The women make up for lost time and the babies are pure love. They come first. Good luck on earth. Find your great love and you have found your peace of mind. You can't rush that, you can only try.

Heard you on the Imus morning show. Sorry to hear that the "Christians" were abusive. Perhaps they are not really Christians at all. Don't be discouraged. There are some of us that don't speak as loudly but recognize the right to have an opinion in a free country.

I didn't feel a thing and then I went past the moon faster than a speeding bullet, ended up on the other side of the universe and there was a cold one waiting. Gordo wants to take me in the Faithship to cruise for virgins tonight. It sounds like a plan! The benefits are out of this world, just don't rush things and we'll see you when you get her. It's a dangerous ride.

I got to heaven and they have all the free beer you can drink here and all eternity to drink it, so I think I'll be drinking for the next 100,000 years. Nobody drives up here so you don't need to worry about getting hit by a drunk driver. Gordo is flying around in his Faithship and looking to go to Mars next week. I told him to take plenty of beer, because Mars is a dry planet. Jack thinks we change that if NASA will cooperate. I'm sure they will, they always have. Enjoy the funeral and keep the Faith.

Humans All Need Equal Birth, to have Equality on Earth.

Humans Need an 'Interfaith' High Tech Translation of Genesis, to stop Nuclear War on Earth.

Genesis 1. The 6 'Days' of Colonizing/Creating Life on Earth, were each, 1000 years Earth time. We have High Tech Knowledge today.

Genesis 1:26a,27. "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:. - So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."

Genesis 2:22. "And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man."

Perfect Adam and Eve Clones, were Reproduced in the Human Image of the Lord God.

The Lord God is Called Gods, Goddesses and Angels in Religion and Myth. In High Tech they are called Astronauts.

Psalms 51:5. KJV "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."

Eve conceived Cain in Sin, with Natural Heterosexual Sex. The Original Sin of the High Tech Asexual Male, made their Female Clone pregnant.

Matthew 22: 29,30. "Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven."

1 John 3:9. "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

Genesis 4:1,2a. "And Adam knew eve his wife: and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord. And she again bare his brother Abel."

Eve conceived Cain and Abel by Adam's seed, not from the apple seeds.

I saw the doctor this morning. We were talking about decay and allergies and trees. Outside it's raining and inside it's coffee, so they are both wet. There is Cay and Decay. There's the best of both worlds and honey and moons. I'm looking forward to the Caymans some day. There's BRAC and back in brac...http://cayman.com.ky/visiting/brac.htm Stay Above and Beyond! It all works out because dreams do come true for more than two, so don't be miserable. Politics isn't worth it because the people who don't vote are more important than those who vote. Hug your kids and suck your thumb for Sally kids. She'll be happy. That's all you can hope to get out of life, money or no money it's a great country.

Ms. Quinn appeared on Imus this morning. She complained, rightly so, of the viciousness of the response by supposed Christians to her ridiculous slam against Ms. Palin. There is no need for supposed Christians to attack Ms. Quinn personally and with such anger. With that stated, Ms. Quinn needs to realize that she typifies the "Washington insider" of which people are sick. Our hope is that Ms. Palin is real .. a mom, a conservative, a leader. If we're wrong, so be it. I'll take someone who's real and doesn't get everything right to all the fake people in Washington anyday! You're wrong on this, Sally, but you should be getting used to that. God still loves you, and so do I.

It is predictable that you would deflect the issue at hand to reflect your anger towards certain organized religions. It's sad that you still whine about women's roles.

The hypocracy is blaring. Sarah Palin is more qualified than Obama. You want a woman in the White House - but not a Republican.

Regarding church leadership, depending on what church you attend, women have important roles - sometimes more important than the men. Our wives and mothers are just as important to our spiritual well being.

When you blur the lines of responsibility, it leads to problems inevitably. In our home, my wife is the mom, and I am the dad. There is balance, gravity, structure and love in our home.

I do not make a habit of participating in these forums. It's akin to hiding behind a keyboard. I'm a proud Christian, father and husband. What works for us is the defined roles my wife and I play. We don't walk around angry at the establishment like you. We enjoy the simple things in life and look forward to every day. Sorry you are so miserable.

Sarah Palin is a joke on America, she is no more qualified than I to be V.P. or indeed President. Iam a "Hockey Mom", was a diligent but fairly average student, however at only ONE university, raised three children, can multitask with the best of them, still not qualified to be President.
Is the religous right hypocritical? DUH!Organized Religion is a "terrorit organization". Do as they say not as they do, their way or the highway i:"Hell". Is that not the definition of terroriam?
Grandma Babs

Drown your sorrows and have a Scottish Coffee this fine morning. At least when you get hung out to dry the emotions won't get in the way of a good time. I had my infamous Gone With The Wind Coffee yesterday and soon Tuesday will be gone with the wind too. The hell with popularity. Sally might not be very popular these days, but she has job to do. Don't we all. Lately I've been running on faith. I'm out of things to say so it's time to go deadhead and write life off. Don't write your dreams off, for they can come true if you have faith. Good bye and good bytes. The END!

The sun is above and hell is below. Rise or fall with the sun. There is a time to kill and a time to have ham and eggs. Somebody had to kill my breakfast. Ham ain't from hell. I'm in a living hell here, but I have hot coffee and booze.

66 is dead Dr.. At times the dead do speak out from the grave on grave matters and the truth goes marching on.

Words of Wisdom for BO and JM:

Keep in mind that Pilate was a necessary accessory in the "rise" of JC. Without that crucifixion, where would we Christians be??

And JC an organizer?? Hardly!!! Paul did most of the organizing and original advertising. M, M, L, and J did the added embellishing and ad campaign raising a simple preacher man to deity status akin to the OT and Roman emperors campaign people More necessary accessories!!!!

Christianity really should be named for The Five Voodoo Doctors aka P, M, M, L and J with their changing of wine into blood and bread into living tissue and the raising of at least two dead people.

Hello Patrick Sarsfield,

Chill, please, my friend. Remember this is only a blog. Reality is out there, somewhere, maybe....Gotta hope.

Here is no matter. Read the romantic blogger on this thread, sip some red wine, and gaze out at the stars.

Best,
Farnaz

Harvard tracer has NH address of SixSix for all who desire to confront him for INTERVIEW

Sixty Six was raised as a Catholic and developed a HATE-ON for the parish priest who did him wrong and so it is that Doolittle is biter, bitter, bitter, yet can be salvaed by truth

Best of luck to any effort he might put into the life and love he craves

Genius at Harvard has traced "Agent 66" and all his Aliases to Boston College and boredom

To AGENT 66 and 666 a/k/a DEFLAG SPECIAL DEPUTY SHERIFF and FIGHTER ACE and AGENT 99 (Female) etc

At 10:44 pm today you revealed the basis of your thinking when you said "the sun comes up again"

How can it come up "again" when the sun never rose since heaven created it? Your planet goes around it. It neither turn nor orbits the Earth

You mind is no match for Harvard so you keep spouting BABELLINGO (lingo from the TOWER OF BABEL) as you fear the DANGER of self-identity

You were busted by your mistakes during the first three responses to the New Trial for Jesus Churst

On the planet of my origin we do not have time for pre-Apocalyptic thinkers like you, but I AM taking thse few moments to let you know your address is no big secret, because you blew it

If you wanted to fight truly, you would show you mind as worthy of my time and energy.

Do something to impress YOURSELF besides lie. Think in harmony with the Laws of Nature which make the Earth go around the Sun, not rise "again"

At least, however, you did respond to the Justice for Jesus movement, but not more than somewhat

You know what is really hilarious and hypocritical about that question?

The ditz who wrote that question doesn't believe it herself, but hey, what does she care when she is on the O'Reilly factor with her Mea Culpa.

Oy!

THAT WAS FUN

To “AGENT 66”

The Bible says, “Prove all things.” (I Thessalonians 5.19)

“The book called the Bible has been voted by men, and decreed by human laws to be the word of God; and the disbelief of this is called blasphemy”

We know what fools men can be and laws are written to control fools, so there is always more need for more laws since so many fools are born daily. You must believe in laws for there are so many fools. Go to a sporting event for proof of this simple fact. The fools vote and you get the government you deserve, not the government you need. That's how you end up with blasphemy. Vote with your wallet. Cash is proof and a fool and their money are lucky to get together in the first place.

The ace is one thing and jokers are wild, so the game is good. So let's fight, it's the American Way.

I tried to me and I will miss Agent 66. He invented memories and rewrote history. It all turns out for the best if we want the best for those who mean the most to us. Don't panic, the sun comes up again and even if he was a Judas I got you anyway. His motives were pure. How many times do we have to tell this story?

Keep it wild, for America is never mild
http://www.artontheweb.com/Doolittle/praywild.htm
Capitalism is a wild thing and that is where freedom lives and thrives. It's a dangerous sort of ride cowboys and you have to love it. You need to be ready to pay with your lives if you must.

If we should have to fight, we should be prepared to so so from the neck up instead of from the neck down.

Think about it.

The parish priest got drunk and Bridget ended up with that big belly. Some catholic girls don't start too late, so Father forgive them. Then they chuck you in a hole in the name of God. God I'm glad my religion is pure and simple, like my life. I'm just a friend of justice and a believer in freedom. We are soldiers are fortune and we don't know why and we don't give a damn about who the kiling is affecting. Like any grunt knows, you have to keep killing people.

The hazards from Harvard are spinning yards. In your face book types. It's never easy, so they get all bent out of shape about it when we play hard scrabble. The whole purpose of being men is to make it easier for the women and children. Harvard would of been better if they stayed with training ministers instead of training world domination pioneers. Agent 66 was hung earlier and came back to life as your worse nightmare so it's open season on scum and damn the evil forces. There are ships on the waters and ammo to kill pirates with, so what can you do? Just so 99 is alive and well, all is right with the world. In the end talk is cheap and the wild things have a prayer. Stay wild and stay dangerous. America was built by dangerous people and we don't fear danger, we are challenged by it. Stay challenged and stay alive. Live free or die.

If I wasn't so drunk I wouldn't have voted against a new trial for Jesus Christ. So I appologize to the public over this blog and I now change my vote in his favor.

why?

Because of the 11th Commandment:

WHEN THE ODDS ARE OVERWHELMING AGAINT YOU
AND YOU'VE PLAYED YOUR LAST ACE
REMEMBER THE THE 11th COMMANDMENT
SAVE YOUR carcASS, not your face!

Please disregard all responses of people using my defunct "Agent 66" handle hereafter.

I wanna run through hell in gasoline draws with Je-Zeus and Mo-Zeus and their grandaddy Zeus, so I'm vote against the whole kabootle.

This must be the most fun time on Earth for 66, against whoooom I vote for Jesus

To that "666" agent against a new trial for Jesus Christ

At 7:55 ph today 666 threatened "watch who you cross" but he is afraid to ID himself.

Jesus also said watch who you Cross and he did not hide from the government which he did not work for as any sort of agent.

I am at Harvard University, Mr. 666, "Bring the noise!"

World Citizen said:

As long as Governor Palin does not try to impose her religious views on everybody else, what does it matter whether she believes in creationism literally as in the Bible? She may believe that the world came to being from a Pizza for all the bearing it has on public policy, as long she doesn't insist that it be taught in schools.

But that's exactly the concern. Her views are not just about creationism being taught in schools. What do her views about science say about, say, the cure for cancer? Efforts in space? The preservation of our oceans? There are literally hundreds of "science" questions that are part of our domestic and foreign policies. Her view of the role of science and creationism will come into play, just like they do for everyone. There are billions of dollars and millions of lives at stake in how we meet the challenges of the future. How will a President Palin choose?

The problem for me is not whether she SHOULD be Vice President because of her gender. One in 3 Vice Presidents have assumed the Presidency due to the death or resignation of the President in the last century or so. Given the grueling demands of the American Presidency...arguably the hardest job in the world (Google images of Bush at his first inaugural and now, and you'll see what I mean)...McCain has placed someone on the ticket who is an unknown except for a very few limited issues. How will a President Palin lead? I have a pretty good idea of Biden, but she is a completely unknown factor. That is scary!

If this is the way McCain will act as President, he should have quit when he lost in 2000. He has an obligation to ensure that the public has a clear idea of what her domestic and foreign policies will be. Otherwise, she has no business being VP, and one should hesitate before voting for the McCain/Palin ticket

CDR USN, Ret

Time to eat. Nice guys have dinner last and this Agent is having it alone. I wish 99 could be here to dine. She is very busy. Maybe some time in the future we will find some spare time. It looks like I've been spared another trial. Time to cook up something good, so good luck if you can make it. If not those are the breaks with liberty and justice for all.

You can never find 99 when you need her. She is real busy taking care of business and God love her for all she does. I really hope she makes a killing, because God knows in business it is kill or be killed. I would die for because I live for her and the justice she promotes. No peace means no justice and then we all hang. Love and peace go a long way in a world fractured by war and hate. The cross is a big plus so keep love real and keep your children safe from evil. They deserve peace and happiness.

News travels FAST in this Age of Cyberspace. "Yes," I vote to let Christ down from the cross. He's too nice a fellow to be so maltreated and I always have believed in Due Process of Law, including and especially the 10 Commandments.

I was walking across the campus at Northern Arizona U when my favorite professor alerted me to a message from Jesus through some blogger on the Newsweek/Washington Post webpage about voting him down from the Cross during a new trial. If this is that trial (ongoing) I vote YES.

If it's good for the children of the USA Agent 66 is ready to hang. Jesus didn't have gunpowder and lead, so Agent 66 won't go as easy. There will be a shootout first. Then there are Agent 66's covert agents like 99 and she can kill you from a mile away. Watch who you cross, they might just hang you and hang you high. Then again they might just shoot you to thrill. You'll go off louder than bombs, so nobody will hear you scream when you die. We'll hit you so hard the next generation will hear it though.

Folks,
Farnaz writes:
"PatrickSarsfield:

I am not "folks," and writing to "folks" will not spare you the burden of making a reasoned argument. PS. Hello, Folks, whoever and wherever you are!"

Farnaz apparently does not recognize that my response was intended to reach not just her but other readers as well. It is the collectivity of the other readers--and Farnaz to the extent she deigns to identify with a group larger than herself--whom I addressed as "Folks."

All my life Jesus seemed to help me and now I want to help him down from the cross.

My vote in the verdict is NOT GUILTY and my feelings will never back down from this decision.

This is my vote for Jesus during his new trial - NOT GUILTY.

I vote to let Jesus down from the Cross (murder weapon) for justice in the 8th Day of God's Creation.

How would "Agent 66" like to take him place!

Justice for Jesus! I vote in favor of his innocence. Nobody on this planet ever deserved a New Trial more than he!

I salute you for the notice and due process of law.

Students here are excited about it.

Apocalyptically yours,

JIMBO

I vote to let Jesus down from the cross and I thank his Creator for this website to do so!

I also thank all the bloggers who brought this chance to my attention.

Right on, Mary H! I vote to let Christ down from the Cross because he was innocent and did not get a fair trial. Amen!

What Professor JD Crossan, an On Faith panelist, has concluded after studying all the scriptures and non-scriptural documents about the simple preacher man's last days:

From his book, Who is Jesus.

"That Jesus was crucified under Pontius Pilate, as the Creed states, is as certain as anything historical can ever be.

" The Jewish historian, Josephus and the pagan historian Tacitus both agree that Jesus was executed by order of the Roman governor of Judea. And is very hard to imagine that Jesus' followers would have invented such a story unless it indeed happened.

“While the brute fact that of Jesus' death by crucifixion is historically certain, however, those detailed narratives in our present gospels are much more problematic. "

“My best historical reconstruction would be something like this. Jesus was arrested during the Passover festival, most likely in response to his action in the Temple. Those who were closest to him ran away for their own safety.

I do not presume that there were any high-level confrontations between Caiaphas and Pilate and Herod Antipas either about Jesus or with Jesus. No doubt they would have agreed before the festival that fast action was to be taken against any disturbance and that a few examples by crucifixion might be especially useful at the outset. And I doubt very much if Jewish police or Roman soldiers needed to go too far up the chain of command in handling a Galilean peasant like Jesus. It is hard for us to imagine the casual brutality with which Jesus was probably taken and executed. All those "last week" details in our gospels, as distinct from the brute facts just mentioned, are prophecy turned into history, rather than history remembered."

See Professor Crossan's reviews of the existence of Jesus in his other books especially, The Historical Jesus and also Excavating Jesus (with Professor Jonathan Reed doing the archeology discussion) .

Other NT exegetes to include members of the Jesus Seminar have published similar books with appropriate supporting references.

To “AGENT 66”

The Bible says, “Prove all things.” (I Thessalonians 5.19)

Are you afraid to give your BIRTH NAME as proof of who you are because of WHAT you preached on this blog 9/8/08?

You bother to deify your own worship of the MURDER (torturing to death) of Jesus against LETTING HISTORY BE THE JURY throughout the nations as to whether Jesus was guilty of any crime during his MISTRIAL two thousand years ago.

You, while in comfort, say, “A new trial for Jesus? Isn’t that double jeopardy?” Double Jeopardy only occurs when someone is tried a second time after being found INNOCENT the first time.

By mocking his chance for a new trial, you are telling us that you want him to remain punished for his INNOCENCE so that you can be “saved” from your own guilt of sins by worshipping his HOMICIDE which the government committed against the law of his Creator, “Thou shalt not kill.” (Commandment Six of the Ten Commandments)

Jesus was TORTURED TO DEATH because the Chaplains of the government and their abettors bore FALSE WITNESS against him contrary to Commandment Nine which you dismissed by your own false witnessing with these words on this worldwide blog (9/7/08): “I'm going to have a Scotch and hit a few golf balls – I think I'll have a double for the memory of Ole Double Trouble.”

NO WONDER YOU DARED NOT GIVE YOUR BIRTH NAME FOR FEAR OF SHAME GLOBALLY! You don’t want to correct or pay for your own sins, like your ancestors who built the TOWER OF BABEL as if they could get to heaven without having to do justice on Earth, so you deny the right of Jesus to a new trial based on the EVIDENCE OF HIS INNOCENCE SINCE THEN, because you are using the MURDER WEAPON (Cross) as your own TOWER OF BABEL, instead of correcting or paying for your own sins.

You sound like some sort of golf-playing Chaplain while folk suffer and you joke about such INJUSTICE, whereas I hereby cast my vote to LET JESUS DOWN FROM THE CROSS and stop blaming him for what we do against the laws of his Creator and ours.

WHO WANTS TO DO LIKEWISE – As law and justice require? Cast your vote on this website for true justice during the EIGHTH DAY OF GOD’S CREATION – and watch the nations heal themselves with this democratic attitude, person by person, town by town, state by state, superpower by superpower, until “there shall be no more curse.” (Bible, Revelation 22.3)

To “AGENT 66”

The Bible says, “Prove all things.” (I Thessalonians 5.19)

Are you afraid to give your BIRTH NAME as proof of who you are because of WHAT you preached on this blog 9/8/08?

You bother to deify your own worship of the MURDER (torturing to death) of Jesus against LETTING HISTORY BE THE JURY throughout the nations as to whether Jesus was guilty of any crime during his MISTRIAL two thousand years ago.

You, while in comfort, say, “A new trial for Jesus? Isn’t that double jeopardy?” Double Jeopardy only occurs when someone is tried a second time after being found INNOCENT the first time.

By mocking his chance for a new trial, you are telling us that you want him to remain punished for his INNOCENCE so that you can be “saved” from your own guilt of sins by worshipping his HOMICIDE which the government committed against the law of his Creator, “Thou shalt not kill.” (Commandment Six of the Ten Commandments)

Jesus was TORTURED TO DEATH because the Chaplains of the government and their abettors bore FALSE WITNESS against him contrary to Commandment Nine which you dismissed by your own false witnessing with these words on this worldwide blog (9/7/08): “I'm going to have a Scotch and hit a few golf balls – I think I'll have a double for the memory of Ole Double Trouble.”

NO WONDER YOU DARED NOT GIVE YOUR BIRTH NAME FOR FEAR OF SHAME GLOBALLY! You don’t want to correct or pay for your own sins, like your ancestors who built the TOWER OF BABEL as if they could get to heaven without having to do justice on Earth, so you deny the right of Jesus to a new trial based on the EVIDENCE OF HIS INNOCENCE SINCE THEN, because you are using the MURDER WEAPON (Cross) as your own TOWER OF BABEL, instead of correcting or paying for your own sins.

You sound like some sort of golf-playing Chaplain while folk suffer and you joke about such INJUSTICE, whereas I hereby cast my vote to LET JESUS DOWN FROM THE CROSS and stop blaming him for what we do against the laws of his Creator and ours.

WHO WANTS TO DO LIKEWISE – As law and justice require? Cast your vote on this website for true justice during the EIGHTH DAY OF GOD’S CREATION – and watch the nations heal themselves with this democratic attitude, person by person, town by town, state by state, superpower by superpower, until “there shall be no more curse.” (Bible, Rev. 22.3)

To “AGENT 66”

The Bible says, “Prove all things.” (I Thessalonians 5.19)

Are you afraid to give your BIRTH NAME as proof of who you are because of WHAT you preached on this blog 9/8/08?

You bother to deify your own worship of the MURDER (torturing to death) of Jesus against LETTING HISTORY BE THE JURY throughout the nations as to whether Jesus was guilty of any crime during his MISTRIAL two thousand years ago.

You, while in comfort, say, “A new trial for Jesus? Isn’t that double jeopardy?” Double Jeopardy only occurs when someone is tried a second time after being found INNOCENT the first time.

By mocking his chance for a new trial, you are telling us that you want him to remain punished for his INNOCENCE so that you can be “saved” from your own guilt of sins by worshipping his HOMICIDE which the government committed against the law of his Creator, “Thou shalt not kill.” (Commandment Six of the Ten Commandments)

Jesus was TORTURED TO DEATH because the Chaplains of the government and their abettors bore FALSE WITNESS against him contrary to Commandment Nine which you dismissed by your own false witnessing with these words on this worldwide blog (9/7/08): “I'm going to have a Scotch and hit a few golf balls – I think I'll have a double for the memory of Ole Double Trouble.”

NO WONDER YOU DARED NOT GIVE YOUR BIRTH NAME FOR FEAR OF SHAME GLOBALLY! You don’t want to correct or pay for your own sins, like your ancestors who built the TOWER OF BABEL as if they could get to heaven without having to do justice on Earth, so you deny the right of Jesus to a new trial based on the EVIDENCE OF HIS INNOCENCE SINCE THEN, because you are using the MURDER WEAPON (Cross) as your own TOWER OF BABEL, instead of correcting or paying for your own sins.

You sound like some sort of golf-playing Chaplain while folk suffer and you joke about such INJUSTICE, whereas I hereby cast my vote to LET JESUS DOWN FROM THE CROSS and stop blaming him for what we do against the laws of his Creator and ours.

WHO WANTS TO DO LIKEWISE – As law and justice require? Cast your vote on this website for true justice during the EIGHTH DAY OF GOD’S CREATION – and watch the nations heal themselves with this democratic attitude, person by person, town by town, state by state, superpower by superpower, until “there shall be no more curse.” (Bible, Revelation 22.3)

There is no comparision between clergy and public office. Clergy is based on what a particular faith believes about the divine roles of men and women. Public office is based on democracy, leadership, accomplishments, popularity, representing the people, political savvy etc. As for faiths who believe in a male only clergy, it is my understanding that it is not meant as an insult to women.
It is my opinion, regardless of Gov. Palin's gender, she has leadership skills that can benefit our nation.

When asked what the universal food is, Sonny Bright replied, "Leftovers!"

Ancient proverbial wisdom: Not on the same page, not on the same stage.

People training to teach about the Path to 'Salvation' of Earth and its population, is different in the many religions.

How can people train to be a religious leader, and then have to be a Therapist/Psychologist also. A Rabbi, Priest, Imam, Pastor etc., need lots of lay person help to Cope with all the types of Sinners in their Ministry.

Teaching about the High Tech Science Path to Salvation, has not been Known to Natural Born Humans, since the Noah/Atlantis Planetary Flood, destroyed most of that 'wicked' Killing Population on Earth.

Humans and all Species began again, on a Changed Planet surface, an altered Axis, and an altered Eco System. The Humans brought with them writings about the High Tech Science World Before the Flood.

Without High Tech Science Human Knowledge, the writings were translated as the Supernatural power of the Gods. Our High Tech Peace Ancestors,'in the beginning'; the High Tech Noah/Atlantis Killer Society at the Planetary Flood.

Our High Tech Purebred Ancestors closed down their Lab, in the Garden of Eden. The Fallen Humans had their Free Will to experience what Heterosexual Body Birth does to a Home Base Planet, for Space Travel.

The Noah/Atlantis' High Tech megalithic ruins, are on all parts of the Earth, from their Planetary Flood Judgement Day.

Our Divided Killer High Tech Society, will have a Planetary Fire Judgement Day. Fallen Humans will destroy the Ozone Canopy, and Life cannot continue on Earth.

This is the History of Earth, of Supernatural Gods and Fallen Humans, in All Scripture, Myth, and Ancient Tablets, when translated.

The USA has fulfilled Prophecy in Revelation, as the Last Days most powerful Nation. What else will be Fulfilled in the Coming Nuclear War Days and ruin of our Eco System?

my real and bigst job in life is to raise a good citizen. ,im more than sure ,the general health and the soundness of the nation start at me and with me lest you forget this simple and great reality of this life .

im forced like a mule to go to the job market like the rest of the vegetables and leave my childern to the public school and the T V to raise my child ,no wonder the nation is full of manic delusional crazy people ,they may have big jobs and put on suit and a tie but in reality they are bums blood suckers they sucking the whole nation backward ,what is funny ,they call themselfs civilized !

i demand my job back

O'Victoria, O'Victoria, O'Victoria,

How in the world are you so vehement about women's rights but still continue to be a Muslim???

What is it you do not understand about the koran's acceptance of polygamy and wife beatings?

What is it you do not understand about Ayaan Hirsi Ali's comments about Islam's mistreatment of women??

From her autobiography, Infidel:

p. 47 paperback issue:

"Some of the Saudi women in our neighborhood were regularly beaten by their husbands. You could hear them at night. Their screams resounded across the courtyards. "No! Please! By Allah!"

p.68:

"The Pakistanis were Muslims but they too had castes. The Untouchable girls, both Indian and Pakistani were darker skin. The others would not play with them because they were untouchable. We thought that was funny because of course they were touchable: we touched them see? but also horrifying to think of yourself as untouchable, despicable to the human race."

p.309

"Between October 2004 and May 2005, eleven Muslim girls were killed by their families in just two regions (there are 20 regions in Holland). After that, people stopped telling me I was exaggerating."

p. 347

"The kind on thinking I saw in Saudi Arabia and among the Brotherhood of Kenya and Somalia, is incompatible with human rights and liberal values. It preserves the feudal mind-set based on tribal concepts of honor and shame. It rests on self-deception, hyprocricy, and double standards. It relies on the technologial advances of the West while pretending to ignore their origin in Western thinking.

we frog wood home letter busy girl cube speed microsoft

REVEREND- It's not her faith that elicits comment- it is that the place of the woman in Paul's own words- preclude an authoritarian position.

So, to ask if Palin- is being true to the standards of her own faith, is a valid one.
Or, it could be, as you suggest- that she is justifying a biblical inconsistency by practicing a form of her own universalism, when it is convenient for her own ambitions.

It is that ambition, and abandonment of the standard set in her own faith- that is being questioned.

Sorry, but it just cracks me up when Newsweek and the rest of the mainstream media hold forth with their analysis of what the evangelicals are thinking. They simply have no basis on which to evaluate or understand evangelical Christians. One writer (Noah Goldberg?) asked, “How can a New York Times columnist claim to know what evangelicals are going to do? Most of them aren’t even acquainted with an evangelical.”

Ravi Zaharias said, “We are living in a time when you can believe anything, as long as you do not claim it to be true.” There is a new, politically correct standard for religion in this country, and it is Universalism. Any religion you care to espouse is fine with the MSM…as long as it is Universalism. I.e., you are required to believe and confess that ALL religions are equally valid and that ALL religions can lead to salvation, not just yours. If you are not willing to say this, you are considered an extremist. If you dare to express religious convictions that do not line up with Universalism, such as (hello?) the historic Christian teaching that people are saved alone through faith in Jesus Christ, you are guilty of “hate speech.”

Small wonder, then, that the MSM’s reaction to Sarah Palin’s Christian faith ranges from astonishment to ridicule. The simple fact is that people who are not Christians don’t understand people who are, and cannot be expected to. The Apostle Paul said, “For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.” I Cor. 1:18.

Farnaz- You are preaching to the choir here.
My grandmother worked as an executive secretary for the VP of one of the largest corporations on the planet- Alcoa corp - she had 500 secretaries under her and rose to the highest pinnacle a woman could possibly reach- and she kicked that glass ceiling for 50 years- all in the 1920's and all without a college education.
My mother was the first female steward in her entire union- she kicked that ceiling enough to break it-

But they had a saying- if you want to run with the big dogs you have to p**s with the big dogs.

And all is fair in politics-
Palin has been getting a BIG pass- because of her gender-
it works both ways.
Sexism is alive- but so is racism, ageism, even attractiveness-
The issue with her daughter is a laxity of not adhering to biblical standards-

If she weren't a proclaimed christian evangelical- it wouldn't be such an issue-
I have never had any Baptist anywhere that firmly was convicted say that the bible is not the literal word the god-

It is the small hypocrisies in such things as not (keeping goats was it?) and ignoring the command for women to remain silent and nto ask questions and forbidding them to have authority over or teach a man (all activites necessary to be a VP)

There's a theological disconnect- but that is not what scares me about Palin- she is running for VP- any inconsistency, real or perceived- is fair game when the stakes are that high.

Victoria,

You know, the funny thing is I didn't read Sally's question as an attack on Christians, Baptist, or otherwise. I read it to have more general, even universal implications and applications. Sexism remains a serious issue for the one or two denominations in Judaism that still haven't gotten it. I personally know from having worked with Jesuits and nuns that the matter of female ordination is still of the utmost importance to some in the Catholic church. I group up in a predominantly Muslim country, and, in fact, my closest friend is not only Muslim but an internationally known scholar. She is one of many who believes that women should be clerical leaders and has been quite outspoken about her views.

Religion is just one of several venues in which sexism is accepted. The media is another as Clinton's campaign revealed. How much time was spent by respected journalists commenting on the woman's breasts, ankles, butt, and attire.

Why didn't we hear more about McCain's thinning hair? (Yo, John, ever hear of hair transplants?) His great big belly? (What month is he in?) What about Barack's biceps? (Does he have any? Look like a girl's.) Man needs abs, muscle in those thighs, and shoulders would be good. (Ever hear of gyms, B?) And, oh, Barack, ditch those old-guy suits.

See what I mean, Victoria? And now shall we go after the two male candidates' children as MSNBC did Chelea Clinton? Easy to yell about Palin's daughter. Palin isn't running for president. Clinton's out of the picture, so....the men's children could be next. Can't have that, can we?

Victoria,

Please, I humbly beg you to read what I write before you attack it. I didn't attribute the use of a phrase to anyone. (You did.) What I did was to date the beginnings of the debate.

Why do you assume I've never been out of New York?
I've travelled cross country by car, my dear, and I've lived and vacationed in other states. Frankly, there are considerably less sexism and racism in this state than there are in any number of others.

I'm sure our daughters will be asking about this question, I say optimistically, but I don't think Sally's question is accusatory. The Muslim tradition has had great female figures including some of the most important mystics in history. That isn't the point. The Tanakh, like anything else, like the Christian Testament is interpreted.
Even those who view themselves as fundamentalists (i.e., literalists) are interpreting. Reading is foundationally an interpretive act and thousands of years after the "facts," it is all the more so.

If Baptists' were to take everything the Bible says literally, they would own slaves, be dealing in goats, etc. They, like every other patriarchal group takes what suits them, and what they can get away with.

This is why, despite the fact that the Q'ran, for instance says nothing whatsoever about burkas, burkas persist in some cultures. The most powerful book on the wedding of Islam with patriarchy is Fatima Mernissi's "Beyond the Veil." Although a Moroccan, the book has become a classic throughout much of the Muslim world as well as in the West. ONe of the reasons is that although it concerns Islam, its arguments can apply just as well to Christianity and Judaism.

Islam in the US has made considerable progress gender-wise in some quarters, so you will note that there are female Muslim chaplains in some universities. Many branches of Christianity, all
but one or two in Judaism have also made great strides. There is no reason why religion should not move forward, and, I still maintain, that if any of the aforementioned religions were to publicly state that nonwhites could not be clerical leaders, they would lose their tax benefits.

Why the culture accepts sexism but not racism (that is, it doesn't accept it in public discourse), is something it needs to think through.

Meanwhile, it's good to know that AARP continues to recognize where its interests lie.

Farnaz

PS. Victoria, if you haven't yet read Beyond the Veil, please do so when you can. It gives one enormous insight into patriarchy and religion. Of course, there are many works analyzing the patriarchic privelege entrenched in some branches of other religions, too. But Mernissi's work is, as everyone says, a masterpiece.

wow Farnaz- first you state that the separation of church and state is somehow, still debatable-
and then you wrongly attribute the first usage of the term- itself to the puritan governor.

You'll save yourself a lot of manic distress if you just incorporate new information into your knowledge banks instead of trying to fruitlessly reconcile wrong info into some laborious circular face saving.

Get a grip Farnaz!

Anyway- I personally am interested in seeing Palin speak to a reporter for the first time on Friay (at least that's what her campagn says)

I've watched her and McCain give the exact same speech that they gave at the convention over and over again.
I watched Obama and McCain speak before the AARP(American Association of Retired People) (they're the largest lobby in America Frnaz)

The crowd gave a standing ovation to Obama- McCain's recpetion was tepid- at best- with a 3 second applause after his speech.

After the intitial novelty of Palin's gender wears off- and it will very soon-

Now, for me- it is not hypocritical to believe a woman can lead a nation- many many women from my own religious tradition have led and ruled.

If I were a Baptist, and believed in the literal words of the bible- I would be compelled to follow what it says- which is that no woman can hve authority over a man- or teach a man- or ask questions in public but go home and ask their husbands.

But I don't require calling a woman out on this unfair rule- or publicly humiliate her for not believing the literal word- even if her mouth says she does.

It is enough for me that each woman can look inside herself and her own intelligence and gauge her own abilities impartially and gender neutrally.

The whole intention of the question is implicitly accusatory.

So I cannot blame any women or christians for passing it by.

But Sally is an atheist- despite her faint protestations of her spirituality.

Jon Meacham has gone off to his other blog and his duties as an editor seem to have made him put this one at the bottom of his priorities.

There's really no way to answer a question like this without humiliating oneself-

Trying to embarrass or attack christians doesn't seem like much of a noble journalistic enterprise.

Farnaz- Another recommendation.

Get out of New York and experience America.
Go far out West and find out how really free people are- and how different.

Yeah- there is sexism in America- it is everywhere-
my mother and grandmother, and now I work on eradicating it from our mentality- our public life-
So our daughters will grow up looking back in shock that such a question as this ever needed to be asked.

Victoria:

Btw, we've already been through googling faith-based initiatives, on another thread, what has already been challenged, the disposition, etc. Right now, I'd really like to stay on topic, if that's okay. :-)

Farnaz

Patrick,

Of course, the Pope can have an opinion as can anyone else. The point goes to influence, separation of church and state.

PatrickSarsfield:

I am not "folks," and writing to "folks" will not spare you the burden of making a reasoned argument.

PS. Hello, Folks, whoever and wherever you are!

Anon:
I don't think google has all that many PhDs. If it did, it would probably be far worse than it is.

Victoria:

The first to deal with religion and governance on what is now American soil were the self-designated "pilgrims" ("and they shall be as 'pilgrims'") at Plymouth Rock. In some ways, this bunch were sui generis, and, were, therefore, able to solve the problem very quickly.

The first to grapple with some of the intricacies of PURITAN church and state were Governor John Winthrop and others, of the Massachusetts Bay Colony. Deal with it they did, and although technically not a theocracy they were far too close to it for modern day comfort. The best resource on the Puritans remains Perry Miller after lo, sixty some odd years or so. The second best in my view is Lazar Ziff. Alas, the books of neither gent are googleable, but you can learn about them on the web.

As for Jefferson, of course, he was a deist. This is "not new" to use your idiom, far from it. However, I hand it to old Ben Franklin for taking a far more honest stand in publicly declaring his actual religious beliefs, for his satires about the church, with which you are no doubt familiar, and for his respect for certain ministers of the Great Awakening, notwithstanding their differences in belief.

Neither Jefferson nor Franklin, however, had the guts to do anything for Tom Paine concerning the
"scandal," which I'm sure you know about, and can google if not, just so we don't have to go into it here. That would be the same Tom Paine, btw., whom Jefferson used to such good effect with "Common Sense" (Full text can be googled; Jefferson's role in the affair probably available on google, as well). At least old Ben had the je ne sais quoi to shake his head and shut up until he finished his autobiography much later, at which point he was more frank about his own religious views, or lack thereof. As for Jefferson, his behavior was not quite so decent.

Hence, when I refer to the founders, signers, etc., regarding separation of church and state, I prefer the likes of Ben, whatever his imperfections may have been. There are, of course, other reasons to prefer that old guy over some of his peers, Jefferson included.

Alas, again, none of this goes anywhere near the point I raised initially, and which you have not addressed. That goes to sexism in the clergy. I've posted more on that since first you replied. As for faith-based initiatives as crypto-conversion devices, yes, that has been discussed many times, and will continue to be until someone mounts a challenge that goes to the Supreme Court, and someone will. I'm hopeful that as that debate gathers strength the tax breaks of organized religions will come into play.

All this is secondary to the question Sally raises and which I address.

If you want to deal with those, great. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts.

Folks:
Farnaz writes:
"The Roman Catholic Church's position on abortion should be irrelevant to any and all US congressmen and senators in their roles as elected officials and should have no effect whatsoever on legislation. The same obtains for the positions of the various animist groups, pagans, indigenous religions, Buddhists, Jews, Muslims, Christians, Hindus, etc.

It, therefore, follows that a religious leader should have no more voice than any other citizen. Since the Pope, himself, is not a citizen, his view is quite beside the point. As for Catholic leaders who are American citizens, their views are as significant as anyone else's, including your and mine."

This is nonsensical. Why should the Pope's not being a citizen of the US have any impact on the relevance of his views?

The prohition on women clergy depends, on the Protestant side, on one text that many scripture scholars believe comes from a later period--I Timothy (end of 1st century), and at the same time, Paul expresses the reality that women are prophesying in church (and when you prophesy, women should [keep their hair covered]...I Cor), and perhaps are the very apostles Paul names in Romans as co-workers and founders with him. It is clear that the first century church was open to women's gifts in ways that were not common at the time.

On the Catholic (and Orthodox) side, the prohibition resolves from the belief that Jesus only "ordained" men--at the institution of the Eucharist, the Last Supper. But by that conclusion, one could argue that only Jewish males should be priests, and the issue is open as to whether or not Jesus actually "ordained" anyone.

When the American Lutheran Church and Lutheran Church in America (forerunners of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America) sought to deal with the issue, they ultimately concluded that the witness of the New Testament is not unequivocal, and so they sought to resolve the issue in terms of which decision will facilitate the sharing of the gospel (The Great Commission), and concluded that if women Pastors were acceptable their ministries would flourish in the same way as with male Pastors: along with the gifts they bring, and the circumstances of their ministries. As one of the first women pastors of the American Lutheran Church, I am grateful for that decision. I have celebrated 33 years of ordained ministry, including serving as a Navy Chaplain in the late 1970s and early 80s. Like my male colleagues, it has had its ups and downs, but I can say that in my life, and I believe in the lives of those around me, it has truly been a gift of God.

Rev Christine Miller
Camarillo, CA

Google will answer all your questions, so shut your brain off. Did anybody ever consider that thinking was more important than automated thinking? Our society is headed to hell and if we just keep Googling we can get there faster with computer love. I'm all for love, but then again Google has no soul, just a bunch of PhD.'s taking us to hell faster. I may be going to hell, I'm just not in a big rush to find out how.

Farnaz-
The wall of separation of church and state is first coined by Thomas Jefferson in his letter to the Danbury Baptist Church.
He was responding to a request from them to protect their interests as a relgion from the government.

The distinction you are maling between puritans and other religions would only make sense if no one thought of other religions-

Jefferson was also a deist-


"If as you and others frequently argue, the basis for the tax benefits accruing to houses of worship is the charitable work they do (and I have always assumed this to be the case)"

You assume incorrectly- hhence the rest of your argument is inapplicable.

A really basic google on faith based inititatives will answer all of your questions.
believe me, they've already been thought of and argued for and against.
Go to David Waters question on the subject here- I posted a boatload of links-

You do realize the subject has already been explored n these boards and it is not the current topic?

Sometimes the dreams become nightmares. That is a problem for somebody else, somebody evil and up to no good. That's going to the darkside, so killing is justified. Thou shall not kill until threatened and thou shall utterly destroy an enemy. Soldiers are honorable and beauty sometimes must be destroyed for it hides an evil mind. That is love lost and there is no loss like love, so don't kill out of hate. Of course the politicians want to spin the military into something evil, thus McCain is cast as the villian. We know the real evil and we will destroy it with no remorse. More or less, you have to keep killing people who want to kill you. If you didn't, we would need no military. We could scrap the Navy. Instead we are scraping the mortgage industry, so some steps are bigger than others.

Tou, I meant You. You knew though.

Laura Wellington:

"Had he not thought we could live up to his Godly expectations, he would have found another way. Hence, any "man" that believes that women can not lead clergies is literally spitting in the face of GOD because God has already dictated we can through his decision to give women the ability to create life and rear life (his children). Women rear clergies from birth and through childhood, the most influencial moments of people's lives. And in lieu of the belief that GOD is "all knowing, never wrong, and should never be questioned," his decision in putting his future, most prominently "the belief in him," in women's hands speaks for itself and devoids any other belief to the contrary."

Quite an astonishing post! Thank you!

You drop all of the pretend and grow and you find a woman from long ago. You want her dreams to come true and you want her to be happy just the way she is and the way she deserves to be. Who benefits, but the children and who should? I found that love long ago so I always see here the beauty of her youth. It goes a long way and the next generation deserves no less. They deseve everything we can give them. It was given to us and it binds us together, so they are safe. That is their emotional security and that is love. From generation to generation it passes on and keeps us from harm. Tou don't see the progress, you just see the result and you carry it with you and you share it with others. Dreams do come true when we believe in the children. That is what my grandmother did and it made all the difference. I imagine it still does for her, for there is love and that is the bond.

This is a very interesting question as people are always asking me if through my children's television series, The Wumblers, I am leading a ministry just as Mr. Rogers did through his creation and hosting of Mister Roger's Neighborhood. This series was Mr. Roger's venue for a ministry. Here's how I look at women leading clergies and ministries. GOD gave women the ability to give birth to HIS children. That alone says to me how strong a faith GOD had (and has) in women not only to care for his children but to raise them in tremendous faith. Had he not thought we could live up to his Godly expectations, he would have found another way. Hence, any "man" that believes that women can not lead clergies is literally spitting in the face of GOD because God has already dictated we can through his decision to give women the ability to create life and rear life (his children). Women rear clergies from birth and through childhood, the most influencial moments of people's lives. And in lieu of the belief that GOD is "all knowing, never wrong, and should never be questioned," his decision in putting his future, most prominently "the belief in him," in women's hands speaks for itself and devoids any other belief to the contrary.

It's a challenge. I'm here and she is there. I'm trying to get a woman to see my point of view. She is beautiful, genuine and wonderful. I see here point of view. What does it all come down to? You love her like no other, so it's mysterious. She stands back and watches over things and knows what is good. Because she is good, she makes you better and your love her for it. So you have your peace of mind and you can't stop thinking about her. The trials of life go on and you hope she is thinking about you because the way that you love here is what makes all the difference in the world. You need to make her a poem and show everybody how special she is and how good you should be. If you aren't good together, you are and bad and then the faith in each other is lost. Love is lost and somebody else fills the void. It's never the same as she was, for you knew long ago she was for you and you for her. The rest is jealousy and hate. That is just another path to defeat. She is your victory and you love her no matter what should be. That isn't easy to find and can't be lost. It's a bond binded by true love and can't be broken by anybody. That's power and that's life.
She gets inside of you and your heart feels her and it feels good.

It may seem that some people think that a female could lead the U.S.A. It is the intention of Yahweh Jehovah that men be in authority over women and this has been in existence since the Garden of Eden. Non-negligent people will continue this dynamicism if they are truly non-negligent people. Since the creation of the Office of the Presidency, a woman has never held High Office. It is the intention of Yahweh Jehovah that the woman be the helper of the man.

It may seem that some may think that women are leading the nation in the U.S.A. The word President has never been applied to a woman. In the Holy Word, women are established as being beneath men in authority. So it is with the Oval Office and the Office of the Vice Presidency in the historical registry up to the year 2008 at least. Non-negligent people will continue this dynamicism if they are truly non-negligent. From the days of the Garden of Eden, it has been clear that Yahweh intended for the woman to help the man. Power is a tenet better in the hands of men if men want to maintain the intentions of Yahweh Jehovah in the universe.

Jeff :

Maybe the better question is, "If a woman can't understand her religion, should she be running the country?" Seems Pelosi is confused about the Pope's position on abortion. Seems the Catholic church is having Nancy in for a refresher course. If an ardently practicing Catholic doesn't know the church's position on abortion, then they're not smart enough to be in charge of anything. Now if Nancy were an atheist, that would be a different matter. Transparently clear.
----------

The Roman Catholic Church's position on abortion should be irrelevant to any and all US congressmen and senators in their roles as elected officials and should have no effect whatsoever on legislation. The same obtains for the positions of the various animist groups, pagans, indigenous religions, Buddhists, Jews, Muslims, Christians, Hindus, etc.

It, therefore, follows that a religious leader should have no more voice than any other citizen. Since the Pope, himself, is not a citizen, his view is quite beside the point. As for Catholic leaders who are American citizens, their views are as significant as anyone else's, including your and mine.

If Speaker Pelosi should sign on to be the Vatican's representative in the House, she would be violating the fundamental principle of "separation of church and state," and, I, for one, expect that her resignation from the House would be demanded forewith.

What a congregant thinks or knows, in private life, about his religion's position on various matters is between the congregant and the religion to which he subscribes, and should be of no concern to the public unless, again, it intrudes upon his/her functioning in an elected or appointed government position

Maybe the better question is, "If a woman can't understand her religion, should she be running the country?" Seems Pelosi is confused about the Pope's position on abortion. Seems the Catholic church is having Nancy in for a refresher course. If an ardently practicing Catholic doesn't know the church's position on abortion, then they're not smart enough to be in charge of anything. Now if Nancy were an atheist, that would be a different matter. Transparently clear.

A new trial for Jesus? Isn't that double jeopardy? Sally is just a messenger and they want to put her on trial and now they want to retry Jesus. I'm going to have a Scotch and hit a few golf balls. Let me know how the trials of life turn out. I think I'll have a double for the memory of Ole Double Trouble. It's been a Titanic adventure here. Keep the faith.

Anon:

You write, "Farnaz- I say, remove all tax benefits from all religious institutions that practice sexism. Better yet, remove tax breaks from all religious institutions, period. If we have separation of church and state, why do the churches get a pass on those taxes other institutions have to pay? And what the hey are we doing with "faith based" initiatives?"

I don't know if you're aware of this, but many, many others have voiced the same view on this blog, most emphatically, perhaps, Mr. Mark, whose absence I feel keenly at this moment. MOre and more, I'm tending toward your position. Whatever charitable work churches do could be done by secular institutions, and, in the interest of separation of church and state, probably should be.

MESSIAH – First, Jesus bringing glory of Jews from God to Gentiles (B.43.17.4 + 22 = L.9.1). Second, Lightbringer of APOCALYPSE for healing of nations after Gentiles misinterpreted function of Jesus in their history as a murder that should be worshipped for salvation from their sins contrary to the Ten Commandment that prohibited such a religion, “Thou shalt not kill,” as Jesus cautioned those who wanted him to be crucified, “Thou shalt do no murder . . . go ye and learn what that mean-eth . . . have mercy, and not sacrifice.” (B.40.9.13 + 40.19.18) Jesus just spoke through the INFIXUS as a Rabbi to you from the moments before he was tortured to death, and he is asking for your mercy instead of the Cross on which he was sacrificed by the government of his country as if for your sins, when you were neither a juror at his trial nor born yet, so he is addressing your sense of justice about what was done to him in hast by the jealousy of his competitors who were Chaplains of the system SCREAM PREACHING at the court, “Crucify him, crucify him,” although the court already declared him not guilty to the public, because there was insufficient evidence to find fault with him (B.42.23.4-21) but the Chaplains became an unregistered jury that riled the rabble outside the courtroom, and all he got after that was mob rule, such as during lynchings in America to stop slaves from questioning the injustice of the system before the Civil War and even after. Read again the Plea of this Rabbi to the rabble and cast your vote in church or out toward LETTING JESUS DOWN FROM THE CROSS or leaving him up there in your mind. You are part of the history of this, and if you remain silent about it, you are still voting by silence and the Chaplains will win instead of Jesus. Otherwise LET HISTORY BE THE JURY through you as one of the jurors in this NEW TRIAL FOR JESUS CHRIST DURING EIGHTH DAY OF GOD’S CREATION

Victoria:

"I have to laugh at your suggestion that we take punitive actions against a church that decides how they want to practice-

If as you and others frequently argue, the basis for the tax benefits accruing to houses of worship is the charitable work they do (and I have always assumed this to be the case), it behooves us to know precisely what the formula is for setting the amount of these benefits, how they are differentially distributed to different religious institutions, how once said institutions have the pot, they institutions divvy it up among constituent congregations, what the trade-off is in dollars and cents, and Since we profess separation of church and state, whether these charitable initiatives could just as well be handled by secular institutions, non-denominationally."

I would like to know the answers to these questions if anyone can provide them. If not, perhaps, Susan Jacoby can do so.

I seriously question the notion that "faith-based" initiatives are in keeping with separation of C & S. Regardless of what provisions obtain, they will bring those to churches, mosques, synagogues, etc., who might not wish to go. This is defacto conversion. And what about less "organized," or institutionalized groups such as Wiccans.

Bare in mind, that the "separation" you speak of, such as it then was, originated, for all extents and purposes, with the Massachusetts Bay Colony, from which Governor John Winthrop and others wished to protect Puritans from the government. That is, Puritans, not religion, in general. The point, for us today, is that the origins were meant not to protect us from theocracy, but to protect religion from the government. When we speak of some of the founders, signers such as Ben Franklin, a deist, at best, we come to a more contemporary concern.

I would like to return to the original point. If an organized religion were to refuse to admit to the clergy nonwhites, would you still support its accruing all kinds of tax breaks on the basis of "separation"?

BTW, I have been to AME services, and not only am I not black, I'm not Christian. I don't know that the AME excludes whites from the ministry, but let's say that it does. We live in a country in which due to past and present injustices, certain minority groups are, in fact, treated differently in order to give them the chances taken from them and that we continue to deprive them of. For example, there are single-sex schools specifically intended for young black men, for reasons that have been well publicized.

My Question: Would the country insist on that tax benefits go to institutionalized religions that prohibit nonwhites from becoming the equivalent of priests, rabbis and ministers of certain denominations, imams.

BTW, thanks for the tip about C-Span. I'd love to watch it more often, but have so little time. I try to keep up with BBC as best I can, get tapes from friends abroad, and send them tapes from here.

MESSIAH – First, Jesus bringing glory of Jews from God to Gentiles (B.43.17.4 + 22 = L.9.1). Second, Lightbringer of APOCALYPSE for healing of nations after Gentiles misinterpreted function of Jesus in their history as a murder that should be worshipped for salvation from their sins contrary to the Ten Commandment that prohibited such a religion, “Thou shalt not kill,” as Jesus cautioned those who wanted him to be crucified, “Thou shalt do no murder . . . go ye and learn what that mean-eth . . . have mercy, and not sacrifice.” (B.40.9.13 + 40.19.18) Jesus just spoke through the INFIXUS as a Rabbi to you from the moments before he was tortured to death, and he is asking for your mercy instead of the Cross on which he was sacrificed by the government of his country as if for your sins, when you were neither a juror at his trial nor born yet, so he is addressing your sense of justice about what was done to him in hast by the jealousy of his competitors who were Chaplains of the system SCREAM PREACHING at the court, “Crucify him, crucify him,” although the court already declared him not guilty to the public, because there was insufficient evidence to find fault with him (B.42.23.4-21) but the Chaplains became an unregistered jury that riled the rabble outside the courtroom, and all he got after that was mob rule, such as during lynchings in America to stop slaves from questioning the injustice of the system before the Civil War and even after. Read again the Plea of this Rabbi to the rabble and cast your vote in church or out toward LETTING JESUS DOWN FROM THE CROSS or leaving him up there in your mind. You are part of the history of this, and if you remain silent about it, you are still voting by silence and the Chaplains will win instead of Jesus. Otherwise LET HISTORY BE THE JURY through you as one of the jurors in this NEW TRIAL FOR JESUS CHRIST DURING EIGHTH DAY OF GOD’S CREATION

MESSIAH – First, Jesus bringing glory of Jews from God to Gentiles (B.43.17.4 + 22 = L.9.1). Second, Lightbringer of APOCALYPSE for healing of nations after Gentiles misinter-preted function of Jesus in their history as a murder that should be worshipped for salvation from their sins contrary to the Ten Commandment that prohibited such a religion, “Thou shalt not kill,” as Jesus cautioned those who wanted him to be crucified, “Thou shalt do no murder . . . go ye and learn what that mean-eth . . . have mercy, and not sacrifice.” (B.40.9.13 + 40.19.18) Jesus just spoke through the INFIXUS as a Rabbi to you from the moments before he was tortured to death, and he is asking for your mercy instead of the Cross on which he was sacrificed by the government of his country as if for your sins, when you were neither a juror at his trial nor born yet, so he is addressing your sense of justice about what was done to him in hast by the jealousy of his competitors who were Chaplains of the system SCREAM PREACHING at the court, “Crucify him, crucify him,” although the court already declared him not guilty to the public, because there was insufficient evidence to find fault with him (B.42.23.4-21) but the Chaplains became an unregistered jury that riled the rabble outside the courtroom, and all he got after that was mob rule, such as during lynchings in America to stop slaves from questioning the injustice of the system before the Civil War and even after. Read again the Plea of this Rabbi to the rabble and cast your vote in church or out toward LETTING JESUS DOWN FROM THE CROSS or leaving him up there in your mind. You are part of the history of this, and if you remain silent about it, you are still voting by silence and the Chaplains will win instead of Jesus. Otherwise LET HISTORY BE THE JURY through you as one of the jurors in this NEW TRIAL FOR JESUS CHRIST DURING EIGHTH DAY OF GOD’S CREATION

8 MESSIAH – First, Jesus bringing glory of Jews from God to Gentiles (B.43.17.4 + 22 = L.9.1). Second, Lightbringer of APOCALYPSE for healing of nations after Gentiles misinter-preted function of Jesus in their history as a murder that should be worshipped for salvation from their sins contrary to the Ten Commandment that prohibited such a religion, “Thou shalt not kill,” as Jesus cautioned those who wanted him to be crucified, “Thou shalt do no murder . . . go ye and learn what that mean-eth . . . have mercy, and not sacrifice.” (B.40.9.13 + 40.19.18) Jesus just spoke through the INFIXUS as a Rabbi to you from the moments before he was tortured to death, and he is asking for your mercy instead of the Cross on which he was sacrificed by the government of his country as if for your sins, when you were neither a juror at his trial nor born yet, so he is addressing your sense of justice about what was done to him in hast by the jealousy of his competitors who were Chaplains of the system SCREAM PREACHING at the court, “Crucify him, crucify him,” although the court already declared him not guilty to the public, because there was insufficient evidence to find fault with him (B.42.23.4-21) but the Chaplains became an unregistered jury that riled the rabble outside the courtroom, and all he got after that was mob rule, such as during lynchings in America to stop slaves from questioning the injustice of the system before the Civil War and even after. Read again the Plea of this Rabbi to the rabble and cast your vote in church or out toward LETTING JESUS DOWN FROM THE CROSS or leaving him up there in your mind. You are part of the history of this, and if you remain silent about it, you are still voting by silence and the Chaplains will win instead of Jesus. Otherwise LET HISTORY BE THE JURY through you as one of the jurors in this NEW TRIAL FOR JESUS CHRIST DURING EIGHTH DAY OF GOD’S CREATION

Definition of MESSIAH – First, Jesus bringing glory of Jews from God to Gentiles (B.43.17.4 + 22 = L.9.1). Second, Lightbringer of APOCALYPSE for healing of nations after Gentiles misinter-preted function of Jesus in their history as a murder that should be worshipped for salvation from their sins contrary to the Ten Commandment that prohibited such a religion, “Thou shalt not kill,” as Jesus cautioned those who wanted him to be crucified, “Thou shalt do no murder . . . go ye and learn what that mean-eth . . . have mercy, and not sacrifice.” (B.40.9.13 + 40.19.18) Jesus just spoke through the INFIXUS as a Rabbi to you from the moments before he was tortured to death, and he is asking for your mercy instead of the Cross on which he was sacrificed by the government of his country as if for your sins, when you were neither a juror at his trial nor born yet, so he is addressing your sense of justice about what was done to him in hast by the jealousy of his competitors who were Chaplains of the system SCREAM PREACHING at the court, “Crucify him, crucify him,” although the court already declared him not guilty to the public, because there was insufficient evidence to find fault with him (B.42.23.4-21) but the Chaplains became an unregistered jury that riled the rabble outside the courtroom, and all he got after that was mob rule, such as during lynchings in America to stop slaves from questioning the injustice of the system before the Civil War and even after. Read again the Plea of this Rabbi to the rabble and cast your vote in church or out toward LETTING JESUS DOWN FROM THE CROSS or leaving him up there in your mind. You are part of the history of this, and if you remain silent about it, you are still voting by silence and the Chaplains will win instead of Jesus. Otherwise LET HISTORY BE THE JURY through you as one of the jurors in this NEW TRIAL FOR JESUS CHRIST DURING EIGHTH DAY OF GOD’S CREATION

None of you have hit the real issue Can America afford Palin, at 44,a fertile sexy female, who could well have another 5 children before menopause, and still work as hard and effectively as Reagan or Clinton who put 10 to 12 hours almost every day as well? Has America ever elected a still active fertile female to the Senate? The House maybe with it's many members. Thatcher was not powerless Queen Elizabeth. We are talking about a woman powerless to accomplish anything if she believes everything that happens is God's will. Palin believes we are in Iraq to do God's will. NIX Nix to the pair.

Wow I've been reading comments here for a couple of years and the comments on this particular "question" are about as vile as I've ever seen!

I've never seen Quinn damned to hell so often by so many poius, loving Christians.

Congrats to the venemous, hate-spewing double-standard amateur politicians and representatives for God, that grace this post!

For a really tongue-in-cheek expose of your hypocrisy, check out this funny video-footage from Jon Stewart's show. You should get a kick out of it, and I wish they would do one for the democratic ticket as well.

Thanks once again for showing me the genuine love of Jesus.

http://www.comedycentral.com/videos/index.jhtml?videoId=184086

"It take Unitd Male and Female Humans to rule the Planet."

I agree. The Planet won't rule itself as long as we are spinning it. Be more Unitd or Unit D if you are military. If you aren't unitd, get reunitd. Love rules us all in the end.

It is absolutely fair for Sara Palin to run for VP because our government is supposed to be separation of church and state. We are prejudging her, before we really look at the record. She is after all, the sitting Governor of a state, crucial in our energy futures. That alone, is more experience than Obama.
Further, she has proven to have a huge 80% plus approval rating in her own state. She has a huge support system in her family and husband, and what makes her less able than the historic families in our political past, like Kennedys who had kids, and special needs, etc. Many political families have had the same conditions. Give me a Break. CNN had a 2 part on Sara this weekend, which was done months ago, not knowing about the VP pick. She has made herself accessible. Too many double standards flying around, many created by the very mean Chicago style "not so innocent for prime time" political campaing of Obama/Biden, which by the way is worse than any Washington campaigns that were run before.

It take Unitd Male and Female Humans to rule the Planet.

Humans are searching for all types of Freedom Rights on Earth. Freedom from Misbred Mates, Families, Friends, Race, Religion, State and Federal Government, Homelessness, Starvation, Killing, War, and Death.

Until Fallen Humans on Earth 'Know' Why all these things called 'Sin', happened on Earth, and do something about it, their Hate and Greed will Kill Our Home Planet Spaceship, and All Life on it.

Our Population, and High Tech Science Explosions, is it was in the Days of the Noah/Atlantis Society. Their Misbred Body Birth Human Sin, Caused the Planetary Flood, to Wash that Killing Civilization, off the Face of the Earth.

Saved Misbred Body Birth Humans today, are setting up the Planetary Fire, that will finish destroying Life on Earth. Once the Ozone Canopy is destroyed, Life as we Know it cannot continue on Earth.

The Genesis 'Sin' of Perfect Human Adam and his Clone Eve, made from his Rib, was not by Heterosexual Body Birth. Today we Know how to Clone in a High Tech Lab, it is not a Supernatural 'God' Act any more, but a Human Supernatural Act.

Adam and Eve's Original 'Sin', was making Cain by Heterosexual Body Birth. Why not let Cain also be a Perfect Human, with a Female Clone Helpmeet by God? Why was Human Reproduction changed on Earth, from Perfect to Imperfect?

Abel, Seth, and Daughters also Born by Body Birth, did not have Equal Helpmeets, but Mates. All Humans since were Born by Heterosexual Mates, instead of by Human God's High Tech Science Reproduction.

The Lord God was High Tech Science Human Male and Female Clones, who Reproduced Male and Female Human Clones 'in their Image'. It should be Easy to Translate Genesis, with our High Tech Science today.

Humans can have Eternal Life After Birth, on Planets and in Spaceships.

Cal Thomas hit it on the head. While I don't in anyway begrudge a politician his/her personal faith, I get very troubled when there is an attempt to mix "organized" religion and politics. There seems to be quite an effort in certain circles of US religious organizations to "take back our country for God". God help us if that ever happens! We'll instantly be back in the dark ages where the church ran the government. Read a little of Fox's Book of Martyrs and you will discover that waterboarding is, comparatively, a very mild form of torture. Religion mixed with government can be the most cruel entity ever to exist. The two kingdoms of which Mr. Thomas speak should never be united. But prophecy does point toward most of the world ignoring that point.

I went to Saturn last night in my dreams, woke up back on Earth and it was rough hard days night. It's a dangerous ride. There's work to do and all day to do it. I'm avoiding Camp Pain and working on another camp plan. Keep the home camp fires burning because there is always the next challenge to rise and shine for. Have a great day and keep working on your dreams. Believe and they will come true, so it will all work out well for you. For me, I'm not so sure I'll just work some more and make my own luck. Write negative and then when they spin it, you might just get something positive in return. We can back spin it. It's a Great Country.

People don't really keep track of all the things that they believe, and if they have many beliefs that are inconsistent, it doesn't matter.

To a Catholic, the church says that a woman cannot be a preist. But the church does not seem to care about a woman being a Senator or a mayor. If someone questions this, they have all kinsd of theological hair-splitting arugnenbts, but no one cares about that stuff.

People just go along with different things at different times of their lovies, and change and adapt and mutate accoriding to curltural evolution and whatever happens to be in vogue at any given time.

Theological arguments and and political philosophy are pretty irrelevant, at least to a very large number of people.

CCNL wrote: "Bottom line: Whether it was Paul or pseudo-Pauls who made the comments that women should be subservient to men, the damage was significant and is only now being recognized and repaired."

_____________________________________________

Thank you - I can agree with that.

Beautiful Morning
http://www.42idonline.com/gallery4/d/1520-2/IMG_3450.JPG
Always ready to damage. I'm going to damage a plate of ham and eggs.

Notsogreatscot,

Professors Crossan and Reed in their book, In Search of Paul (p.119), do make a case that 1 Corinthians 14:33-35 was a later insert. Professor Brown and Professor Chilton do not.

Chilton notes in his book, Rabbi Paul:

"The phrasing is Paul's, the sentiment typically Pauline, the arrogance unmistakeable." (in 1 Corinthians 14:33-35).

Bottom line: Whether it was Paul or pseudo-Pauls who made the comments that women should be subservient to men, the damage was significant and is only now being recognized and repaired.

Farnaz- Have you ever watched C-Span?
I think you would really like it- since you seem pretty interested in the political landscape of America-
Washington Journal is on in the morning from 6AM to( (or 10 sometimes)AM, people call in from all over American and the world too- and it is extraordinary the wide wide variety of opinions-
and then after that is always congressional proceedings- which are an education themselves.

Actually, come to think of it-that is where I saw Sally Quinn pushing this blog almost 2 years ago-

O'Victoria, O'Victoria, O'Victoria,

Again and again you sit in judgement of others when you yourself cannot even come to grips with the flaws and errors of Islam, your adopted "religion", a religion whose "good" book allows Islamic "men" to have four wives and allows said "men" to beat these wives.

Once again, how goes the reading of Ayaan Hirsi Ali's book, Infidel? Have you gotten to the following pages?

p. 47 paperback issue:

"Some of the Saudi women in our neighborhood were regularly beaten by their husbands. You could hear them at night. Their screams resounded across the courtyards. "No! Please! By Allah!"

p.68:

"The Pakistanis were Muslims but they too had castes. The Untouchable girls, both Indian and Pakistani were darker skin. The others would not play with them because they were untouchable. We thought that was funny because of course they were touchable: we touched them see? but also horrifying to think of yourself as untouchable, despicable to the human race."

p.309

"Between October 2004 and May 2005, eleven Muslim girls were killed by their families in just two regions (there are 20 regions in Holland). After that, people stopped telling me I was exaggerating."

p. 347

"The kind on thinking I saw in Saudi Arabia and among the Brotherhood of Kenya and Somalia, is incompatible with human rights and liberal values. It preserves the feudal mind-set based on tribal concepts of honor and shame. It rests on self-deception, hyprocricy, and double standards. It relies on the technologial advances of the West while pretending to ignore their origin in Western thinking.

Well, at least you concede that stating separation of church and state as being debatable is an absurd idea.

As for fatih based initiatives-
what?
As long as the government isn't promoting one religion in preference of another- it is in accordance with constitutional law.

Charities also have special tax status- what is your point?

I have to laugh at your suggestion that we take punitive actions against a church that decides how they want to practice-

This is a democracy- not a dictatorship.
Part of that is not imposing our own personal mores onto others.

If you don't like churches that exclude whites- don't go to an AME Zionist Church.

There is also a great deal of freedom allowed for people to worship as they see fit- which- in a democracy- is a pretty good thing.

You want to penalize religious institutions for not fitting in with your philosophy- and religious want to penalize atheists for not fitting in with their philosophy.

You are both wrong- and you both have to learn to tolerate each other's existence with some degree of respect.

That's how it works in America.

"Farnaz- I think you're swimming in unfamiliar waters here-"

Victoria- you can't swim at all and are a glutton for punishment. Still don't get it.

******

Farnaz- I say, remove all tax benefits from all religious institutions that practice sexism. Better yet, remove tax breaks from all religious institutions, period. If we have separation of church and state, why do the churches get a pass on those taxes other institutions have to pay? And what the hey are we doing with "faith based" initiatives?

Hi Victoria,

I think the tax benefits accruing to organized religions and the implementation of faith-based initiatives suggest the "separation" is not as complete as some of the founders would have liked. (See the post on which you comment.) Nor, IMO, would the likes of say, Benjamin Franklin, be pleased by presidents who consult popes and other religious leaders on matters of pending legislation. (Ditto, Obama's F& V outreach, replete with dial and pray, McCain's sudden immersion in Christianity.) Patrick S., I think, understood my point.

As well, I'm sure he knows that the "separation" was not the focus of my reply to his criticism, which, of course, went to my comments on sexism in some religions and religious denominations.

Farnaz

Women are not allowed to become clergy in many conservative religious groups. Is it hypocritical to think that a woman can lead a nation and not a congregation?

At first glance it does seem hypocritical to think that a woman can lead a nation but not a congregation, for after-all a nation should be more difficult to lead and if a woman can lead a nation she should easily be able to lead a congregation.

But things are not so simple. Judging from the historical current and witnessing the spread of democracy, we can argue that nations are becoming easier to lead than congregations, and for this reason we would expect especially the conservative congregations to hold out against this trend.

But let me describe the trend I mean more clearly. As a nation becomes more and more democratic, is capable of the sophisticated dance of democracy, decisions come to reside less and less in only a few individuals and come instead to be spread out among the multitude. A democracy is not really dictated to or led by a few people. Millions of people are involved in direction. In such a society the leader is largely a figurehead in comparison to a monarchy or dictatorship.

We can say then that a nation is more easily led than a congregation and that it matters little from the perspective of a conservative religious group whether it is a man or a woman who does the leading of the nation. But it matters quite a lot who leads the congregation. Where the hypocrisy lies though is that if history is moving toward making nations more democratic,--moving toward the increasing sophistication of individuals to the point that we all truly share in leading--then it seems silly to think that congregations will be immune to this direction.

On the contrary we can expect a battle between congregations trying to hold out in the old ways of having males dictate against the tide of democracy which empowers people to the point that they care little who leads because after all the leader is really a figurehead and it is the people who really lead. In a sophisticated democracy it matters little if a man or woman leads because behind that person are thousands of people orchestrating events.

Probably according to the conservative religious perspective a nation is some sort of cheap thing which is easily led in comparison to a congregation. Saying a woman can lead a nation but not a congregation is all too possible when one devalues nations in comparison to congregations. A modern democracy is something of a runaway mass creating itself out of itself and not easily damaged by one or two errors of leadership by man or woman. But to a conservative congregation it is in the wrong direction period.

Unfortunately though I do not think conservative congregations can hold out against the tide of democracy. Soon conservative congregations will break up and have men and women leading and eventually they will turn into democracies within the larger democracy.

Religion and mass in the future is democracy making itself more and more sophisticated, leadership perhaps done away with as dictatorship dwindles to figurehead the world over and then figureheads become unnecessary. It will seem like anarchy and dissolution, but it will really be the elevation of the people. An elevated people needs no leader. They commune directly with God and earth. God the father and mother earth. Such a society cannot be ruined whether a man or a woman leads. In fact perhaps both will lead at the same time.

We have something of this already in president and first lady....

Farnaz- I think you're swimming in unfamiliar waters here-
your statement-
"First, the "separation of church and state" is debatable, as has been evidenced ad nauseum on this blog."

I've never seen anyone actually debate the consensus of separation of church and state here- or anywhere for that matter.

Some people come in here and claim that America was founded on Christianity-
And then others come in and remind them of the separation fo church and state- usually with the familiar and accompanying documents to prove it.

Even Bush has never dared to suggest such a thing.
The Constitution, and it's Amendments (Bill of Rights) are guarantors that the wall of separation between church and state remain solid-

No politician or government servant will consider this concept debatable- from our governments position- it is not debatable.
From a legal perspective- it is not debatable.
It is truly an accepted fact of our system.

The only people who ever question it are extreme right wingnuts- and they get shot down by our own Constitution.
Our forefathers kind of foresaw that argument.

I'm interested in Mr. Sarsfield's response to your contention.

I feel like a kid in a candy factory or a landfill. The kids are going to have a much greener newspaper in the future, if they aren't taken to another planet first. That is uncertain and uncertain is doubtful. Keeping the kids in the green means keeping them out of the red ink. Candy for the kids and a secure future for all means green.

patricksarsfield :
Folks,
Farnaz makes this silly suggestion:

"In my view, we should have the same response to any organized religion that bars women from the clergy as we would to that religion's exclusion of nonwhites. REMOVE its nonprofit status, all benefits accruing to it, stemming from its status as an organized, and shun it."

So much for separation of church and state. Talk to a politician and get him/her to go on this crusade. I don't think you will find many takers.
------------------------
Ah, Patrick Sarsfield, takes exception to my suggestion with typical perspicuity: my point is "silly," for reasons unstated, "so much for separation of church and state," and a final stunningly irrelevant two-line conclusion (scroll up).

First, the "separation of church and state" is debatable, as has been evidenced ad nauseum on this blog. For further evidence, look to my post, which mentions the nonprofit status of organized religions. Consider, too, "faith-based initiatives."

That any organized religions which would bar nonwhites from the clergy would be shunned, would lose tax benefits is a certainty with which you do not take exception. The fact that women may be excluded from the clergy goes to the sexism which the country still admits freely into public discourse, allows in numerous venues, perhaps, most ironically, in religious institutions, which are supposed to teach....morality.(?)

As for your concluding sentences, Patrick, I'm not advising that politicians "crusade" against sexism or any other form of bigotry. Progress, in this country, begins where it should, with the people.

Strange to say, Sarah Palin is above everything, an anomaly. This goes to the heart of the McCain strategy - or more accurately, the strategy without a heart. She has nothing to offer, but is threatening to displace the ever-boring McCain as the frontrunner! Give the face of youth to the ticket - new blood. Oh ya, Karl Rove think, circa 2008.

Throw a mystery woman into the mix and see what happens - that's it. The more people complain, the more she seems the perfect solution. Forget about her skills for the job....the poor woman is being attacked and she needs defending.

A clever strategy far beyond McCain's capabilities - smells like Karl Rove to me.

They will Return, before we Completely Kill All Life, and take the Survivors to a New Planet.

I'll keep the rocket fueled up honey. I'm thinking that Saturn sounds like a good trip. Maybe we can stop at Venus and then visit Mars. I hear they have lots of bars and “All Snickers made at Waco will be truly green,”
http://www.mars.com/global/News+and+Media/News+archive/Waco+Landfill.htm
Today green Snickers and for the future who knows. We are making progress, so have a candy bar before they come and take you to the other planet. Maybe we can make newspapers with the landfills. Hurry and buy all the landfills you can find. The newspaper business is headed for the landfill and then there is space to spare. It's a dangerous kind of ride.

Folks,
Farnaz makes this silly suggestion:

"In my view, we should have the same response to any organized religion that bars women from the clergy as we would to that religion's exclusion of nonwhites. REMOVE its nonprofit status, all benefits accruing to it, stemming from its status as an organized, and shun it."

So much for separation of church and state. Talk to a politician and get him/her to go on this crusade. I don't think you will find many takers.

It should not be the problem of a woman or man leading the country or a church, but we should conscentrate on joining together to Save our Planet for a Nuclear War and the Planetary Fire Death from our Global Pollution.

What can Jon Meacham say at the upcoming 'Festival of Faith'? Many ideas have already been said, on his "On Faith" Blogs? How many Festival of Faiths, Christian and Others, have Changed our Divided Planet?

Did Humans Evolve from Animistic Heterosexual Body Birth? Mixing Human Genetics without Birth Control Reproduction, did make all the Races, Creeds, and Governments.

Natural Born Humans overpopulated the whole planet. They Evolved up to the High Tech Killer Noah/Atlantis Generation, that caused the 'Planetary Flood' in Religion and Myth.

The Saved Humans and Life Species, began again. Natural Human Life today again Evolved up to the Same Divided High Tech Science Human Killing Lifestyle, as the Noah/Atlantis Society.

We again have Evolved to Clone Animals, and Reproduce Human Fetuses. For the Second Time, a Planetary Destruction from a Population Explosion, and a High Tech Science Explosion, has set up Planetary Pollution, and Nuclear Bombs on land and sea.

This will Result in the Religious 'Planetary Fire Judgement'. No Survivors this time, only a Dead Planet.

Life did not Evolve on Earth. Our Clone Eternal Physical Life Ancestors on Planets and in Spaceships, Colonized Earth with Perfect Clone Male and Female Helpmeets, not Mates.

They gave Humans Free Will on Planet Earth, for a Life Learning lesson in Heterosexual Body Birth, and about Eternal Pure-bred Male and Female Clone Life After Birth.

They will Return, before we Completely Kill All Life, and take the Survivors to a New Planet.

The question isn't properly constructed. The matter goes to sexism. If Christians of some denominations, Roman Catholics, Jews of some denominations, Muslims were to say that only white people could be ministers, priests, rabbis, or Imams, the nation would be up in arms.

However, when it is pronounced that only men can be priests, ministers of some congregations, rabbis of some denominations, imams, etc., that somehow becomes acceptable. It isn't.

In my view, we should have the same response to any organized religion that bars women from the clergy as we would to that religion's exclusion of nonwhites. REMOVE its nonprofit status, all benefits accruing to it, stemming from its status as an organized, and shun it.

CCNL: I will have to check Crossan and Reed out from the library again to verify this, but I seem to remember them suggesting that 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 was inserted in to the text by a later scribe. It is possible that I am confusing this with something written by Ehrmans.

I am fairly certain that the overall theme of Crossan and Reed does not support your stated conclusions with regards to Paul's supposed sexism.

Why should the clergy attract women or anybody? Jesus never lived. Non-Christian documentation of such a person does not exist.

Church government and state government are two completely different issues. The rules of civilian life and the rules of church government are not the same. I am a conservative Christian and I have no problems with Sarah Palin being the VP or potentially the President. But I would not want a woman pastor or elder. As far as community service (or corporate leadership for that matter), if the Palin family makes this decision and they can work out the critical issues for their own family -- great! It is not something I would personally want to do, but I applaud Sarah for doing so. Her children will have less of her personal attention than my children did when I stayed at home to raise them. But as a Christian, I see no Biblical warrants against working women as long as the needs of the family are met. In much the same way as military families support and enable the military team to serve their country, Sarah's family will be tasked with enabling her to serve. They have already had good practice with this -- she's a GOVERNOR! If anything, being a VP will enable the family to garner lots of support and household help which the average working family cannot afford. She won't have to scrub the bathroom floor when she comes home at the end of the day!

Ms Quinn,
Was meint "hypocritical".
Bitte

Notsogreatscot,

Most historical Paul exegetes have concluded that Paul wrote the epistles to the Corinthians, Romans, Galatians, Philippians, 1 Thesolians, and Philemon. The others as per these experts were written by pseudo Pauls. See the references noted below.

To repeat from below:

Tis the bible thumpers who believe that Paul wrote all of his epistles. Said thumpers are composed of priests, protestant pastors, and typically orthodox Catholics and Protestants. Unfortunately, Father Raymond Brown's epic reference book, An Introduction the New Testament (878 pages) is not in their library even though it has both a Nil obstat and Imprimatur from the RCC.

Other excellent references about the historic Paul are Professor Crossan and Reed's book, In Search of Paul and Professor Bruce Chilton's book, Rabbi Paul.

If you don't have these books, Wikipedia has what appears to be a good review of Paul and the pseudo Pauls and their epistles.

Dear On Faith,

In today's ``On Faith'' column in The Washington Post (9/6/08), Richard J. Mouw references Queen Esther ``whom the Lord raised up `for such a time as this....''' Lord with capital `L' means only God for one of the monotheistic tradition. God is nowhere mentioned in the Hebrew text of Megillat (or ``scroll of'') Esther. A better argument for women in the clergy would be, as Mouw points out, Deborah, the judge in ancient Israel. Her ``Song of Deborah'' is one of the oldest works in the Bible or Jewish Torah.

CCNL: Isn't it disingenuous to reference 1 Timothy and 1 Corinthians 14 as evidence of Paul's sexism? Don't most persons of science and history (such as yourself) feel that Paul didn't actually write those passages?

Ms. Quinn,

On O'Reilly last night you stated that you worried that the McCain/Palin ticket was touting "country first" and you needed to know if Palin would put her "kids first" or the "country first?" May I ask you, does it matter? Because if it does, have you asked Obama who he would put first? Or Biden, or McCain....or yourself? And how can you do your Post job and blogging when you have a learning disabled child? You said, good day care and help. So, others raised your child(ren)not you and their dad?

I can't believe the stuff you said on "Bill OReilly" last night. That was a total insult to Christian women everywhere!!!!

O'Victoria, O'Victoria, O'Victoria,

Once again you sit in judgement of others when you yourself cannot even come to grips with the flaws and errors of Islam, your adopted "religion", a religion whose "good" book allows Islamic "men" to have four wives and allows said "men" to beat these wives.

How goes the reading of Ayaan Hirsi Ali's book, Infidel? Have you gotten to the following pages?

p. 47 paperback issue:

"Some of the Saudi women in our neighborhood were regularly beaten by their husbands. You could hear them at night. Their screams resounded across the courtyards. "No! Please! By Allah!"

p.68:

"The Pakistanis were Muslims but they too had castes. The Untouchable girls, both Indian and Pakistani were darker skin. The others would not play with them because they were untouchable. We thought that was funny because of course they were touchable: we touched them see? but also horrifying to think of yourself as untouchable, despicable to the human race."

p.309

"Between October 2004 and May 2005, eleven Muslim girls were killed by their families in just two regions (there are 20 regions in Holland). After that, people stopped telling me I was exaggerating."

p. 347

"The kind on thinking I saw in Saudi Arabia and among the Brotherhood of Kenya and Somalia, is incompatible with human rights and liberal values. It preserves the feudal mind-set based on tribal concepts of honor and shame. It rests on self-deception, hyprocricy, and double standards. It relies on the technologial advances of the West while pretending to ignore their origin in Western thinking. This mind-set makes the transition to modernity very painful for all who practice Islam".

VICTORIA :

At some point- some journalist somewhere will finally be allowed to ask Palin an actual question.

And there just won't be any way to bluff her way through a debate with Joe Biden.

There will come a time eventually- where Palin will have to construct a thought that isn't scripted.

September 5, 2008 11:49 PM

___________________________________________

As an outsider with no political interest and as someone who shares more values of the Democrats regarding care for the poor, except on abortion, let me take this opportunity to highlight your extremely biased partisan and unfair attitude towards Gov Sarah Palin.

Gov Palin was *chosen* by Senator McCain. If anyone can talk of God choosing her, then she can because she was not out on a political campaign at a national level (like Senator Biden) but got chosen. She has had no time to prepare herself for that big jump from Governor of Alaska to VP nominee. In all fairness she should be allowed have time to prepare for the challenges of a national election campaign.

Anyone who has been following the media coverage closely know that Senator Obama has always been a darling and Senator McCain has had a hard time and Gov Palin is being given a rough ride too. Is it any wonder she wants to protect herself while she prepares herself for the debates ahead?

In all fairness compare the time - the YEARS - Senator Obama and Senator Biden have had to prepare for the national scene to the TWO WEEKS of Governor Palin has had, a woman who seemed to have been picked out of the blue. Come on...any decent human being would be fair to Governor Palin and give her some time. Don't forget Senator Obama met his political mentor David Axelrod in 1992, that is right sixteen years ago, shortly after he graduated from Harvard and has been groomed ever since, over sixteen years!!! David Axelrod helped with his book Audacity of Hope, helped craft his famous speech of 2004, and has been Senator Obama's most loyal and dedicated mentor all along. David Axelrod has all the experience required to create politicians and he started from scratch with Senator Obama a long time ago.

Be fair and give Governor Palin time.

Let people cast their votes based on their policy preferences and their party of choice.

There is no need to be unfair towards a woman who is worthy of great respect and admiration.

Saints don't run for political office. If Governor Palin is no saint and has political instincts and toughness, neither is Senator Obama a saint. He is using all his skills and all the help he can get.
That is politics. Why should anyone use double standards to judge the candidates?

VICTORIA :

At some point- some journalist somewhere will finally be allowed to ask Palin an actual question.

And there just won't be any way to bluff her way through a debate with Joe Biden.

There will come a time eventually- where Palin will have to construct a thought that isn't scripted.

September 5, 2008 11:49 PM

___________________________________________

As an outsider with no political interest and as someone who shares more values of the Democrats regarding care for the poor, except on abortion, let me take this opportunity to highlight your extremely biased partisan and unfair attitude towards Gov Sarah Palin.

Gov Palin was *chosen* by Senator McCain. If anyone can talk of God choosing her, then she can because she was not out on a political campaign at a national level (like Senator Biden) but got chosen. She has had no time to prepare herself for that big jump from Governor of Alaska to VP nominee. In all fairness she should be allowed have time to prepare for the challenges of a national election campaign.

Anyone who has been following the media coverage closely know that Senator Obama has always been a darling and Senator McCain has had a hard time and Gov Palin is being given a rough ride too. Is it any wonder she wants to protect herself while she prepares herself for the debates ahead?

In all fairness compare the time - the YEARS - Senator Obama and Senator Biden have had to prepare for the national scene to the TWO WEEKS of Governor Palin has had, a woman who seemed to have been picked out of the blue. Come on...any decent human being would be fair to Governor Palin and give her some time. Don't forget Senator Obama met his political mentor David Axelrod in 1992, that is right sixteen years ago, shortly after he graduated from Harvard and has been groomed ever since, over sixteen years!!! David Axelrod helped with his book Audacity of Hope, helped craft his famous speech of 2004, and has been Senator Obama's most loyal and dedicated mentor all along. David Axelrod has all the experience required to create politi

At some point- some journalist somewhere will finally be allowed to ask Palin an actual question.

And there just won't be any way to bluff her way through a debate with Joe Biden.

There will come a time eventually- where Palin will have to construct a thought that isn't scripted.

Notsogreatscot,

Tis the bible thumpers who believe that Paul wrote all of his epistles. Said thumpers are composed of priests, protestant pastors, and typically orthodox Catholics and Protestants. Unfortunately, Father Raymond Brown's epic reference book, An Introduction the New Testament (878 pages) is not in their library even though it has both a Nil obstat and Imprimatur from the RCC.

Other excellent references about the historic Paul are Professor Crossan and Reed's book, In Search of Paul and Professor Bruce Chilton's book, Rabbi Paul.

If you don't have these books, Wikipedia has what appears to be a good review of Paul and the pseudo Pauls and their epistles.

Women are not allowed to become clergy in many conservative religious groups. Is it hypocritical to think that a woman can lead a nation but not a congregation?

At first sight it does seem hypocritical to think that a woman can lead a nation but not a congregation, but we need to get the historical perspective correct to see it is not so hypocritical as we imagine.

Conservative religious groups were born in times when far more often than not men led both nations and congregations. Furthermore these were times when leadership was more absolute than today, which is to say democracy was rare. Conservative religious groups are holdouts in our increasingly democratic times. They believe that leadership is absolute and best embodied by men.

Now it might be incorrect that leadership is best when it is absolute and embodied by men, but as we move more and more to democracy--and of course give women rights--a peculiar phenomenon occurs: leadership becomes more and more figurative; we have decisions made by a type of groupthink instead of by a single powerful individual. So really in modern times a president, for example, does not really lead whether he is a man or a woman.

What I am trying to say is that women's rights is a type of bittersweet success. Women are gaining rights more and more, but how societies operate are changing more and more and they are not allowing absolute types of leadership. So really, and strangely enough, women it seems will never really have the right to lead. Today whether a woman (or a man for that matter) leads a congregation or nation her decisions are largely ones which have been made for her and are decisions by the people and for the people.

Conservative religious groups are of course against this democratic type of leadership, and we can suspect that the most successful religious groups in the future will be the ones which best grasp the direction in which history is moving (protestantism far more compatible with democracy than catholicism is?). We can guess that democracy will overwhelm eventually all structures which have a tendency to absolute leadership and of course we will see more and more female leaders, but democracy in overwhelming all structures of absolute leadership leaves us no really strong leaders and instead we have a free floating mass (in both the secular and religious sense) which makes decisions in a type of groupthink. What does it matter if a women does or does not lead in such a type of structure? What does it matter if a man does or does not lead?

So a person can say with perfect consistency and lack of hypocrisy that a woman can lead a nation but not a conservative religious group. The conservative religious group demands absolute leadership and that a man be that leader. A modern democracy is run by millions of decisions by all of us and the leader is largely a figurehead. It is the triumph of a modern democracy that no single powerful individual can really ruin or improve the political structure. We have millions of individuals operating somehow in a sophisticated dance to prevent any individual ruining or improving things beyond what people want.

A woman leading can neither really improve or ruin things. However she can ruin a conservative religious group. But the trend is toward democracy and the ruination of all traditional religious groups. Not seeing that is the true hypocrisy.

Get of the dumb Paul thing. Nobody cares and Paul isn't here to explain it and I don't have the time. The scum never knows when to call it quits. Even when they are beat, they just keep spouting. It proves one thing. Always destroy an enemy entirely. Don't leave an ember glowing. Paul should of been more ruthless. I know I would of been.

After we get done dishonoring our ancestors we can all start harming each other while we reorganize our communities to suit Barack. We can all join the union and destroy the next generation for working wages of sin. We can all get rich too, just like Barack and have it made. Nobody will need to work either.

CCNL: Surely you don't believe that Paul actually wrote everything that is attributed to him in the bible.

Sally taught me. Don't forget that it took people years to even figure out blogging. I was early and figured it out before the kooks joined the party.

What she taught me was that the hate is real. See the comments. So I learned from her that life is viewed as cheap and easily wasted. A sort of a confirmation of 911. I learned that the military should be dishonored, so John McCain should be viwed as a bad example. Barack should be viewed as a future model of virtue and Americanism. Not views I agree with, certainly a position she advocates. I learned that virtue is a disgrace and sevice is a waste of effort. What I found was that I was meant to be alone and unhappy and I guess there is something to be said for that. Everything I thought to be true was proven to be wrong. The veterans are all now viewed as the enemy and Barack is your best friend. Most of all, I have come to the conclusion that I'm better off with no friends, so I abandoned all my friendships. Everything that my grandmother taught me has been reversed. I can't believe it myself. My grandfathers Navy service for the country, like John McCains service was a big lie meant to deceive, while all this time it was Barack that I should of honored and respected. I've been a fool and it took Sally to make me see the light. I was lost and now I'm found. I can now go ahead and tell others how bad my military friends and family are and how Barack is truely a wise and good leader who will let us see the error of our long held faith. Gee was I a fool and now I have a chance at wisdom thanks to Sally and Barack. For some reason though, I believe I was meant to be alone and unhappy. I guess it is just the price of the past. I have the feeling that the future isn't as bright as advertised. That's a kooky idea. That's my story, so goodbye baby I don't care what you do. Barack will make you happy again. If politics makes you happy, you are already dead inside.

I find it very insulting that Sarah Palin's ability to be a good mother and vice president is being questioned. Women have fought against this very issue for so long, why is this STILL an issue? Has there ever been a man asked if he has the ability to be a good father and vice president? This should have NEVER came up.

It was refreshing to hear someone admit that they were mistaken tonight on Oreilly. I have not read much from Sally Quinn, but will pay attention now due to her honest and thoughtful comments that I heard this evening.
I also have never been on a blog before and I must say that there are a lot of kooks out there.

Ms. Quinn....I must admit upfront that, to my knowledge, I have not read any of your columns, etc. However, I did just watch your interview on the Bill O'Reilly show (Fri 9-5)...I want to commend you on admitting that you, apparently (again, I had not seen your previous comments and want to be fair) had not given Gov. Sarah Palin an initial fair shake. You went futher and even admitted that many in the media are guilty of such acts. I admire you tremendously for doing this...more importantly I respect you for what you said in this, subsequent, interview. I have big issues with the slants of major newspapers,specifically the Post and NY Times (the well documented troubles at the NY Times speak volumns)....Nevertheless, that is not the point of my comments, people can disagree on policy and still have respect for one and other IF fairness and honesty are involved. I just wanted to take time to, again, tell you that I appreciate your honesty and excellent example tonight.
David---Beebe, ARK

I saw you on O'Reilly again today and you're still spouting your belief that a woman can't work if she has children and/or a special needs child. The flaw in your argument - Todd Palin has already said he intends to be the primary caregiver. Are you saying you expect BOTH parents of all special needs children to quit work? That's obviously unreasonable and impractical. Or are you saying a father's care is inferior to a mother's care? That's quite simply insulting.

In an interesting coincidence, Cindy McCain has a Master's Degree in Special Education. What a great resource and source of support she will be for the Palin family on this subject.

(Hmmm... my mama always told me a coincidence is when God works a miracle and chooses to remain annonymous.)

If everybody who disagreed with everybody else lost their jobs, we would have more jobs lost than we have lost now. Sally has a job to do and she knows how to do it. The challenge is to get Sally to see things your way, so improve your negotiation skills. Make your case and perhaps Sally will change her position. Perhaps she will not. She is free to state her beliefs and we are free to disagree. Maybe you don't like her position right now. Maybe she doesn't either. She can do her own thing and so can we. We can be convincing and we want more jobs, not less. The end line will be what it is and Sally can be herself. That does not make her a bad person. She could turn out to be wrong. Haven't we all? Don't abandon your faith for the sake of a lie.

Appearing on Friday's "American Morning," Washington Post faith columnist Sally Quinn again attacked the choice of Alaska Governor Sarah Palin as Senator John McCain's vice presidential pick. During her interview with co-host Kiran Chetry, Quinn suggested Palin would not be able to balance her five children along with the duties of the vice presidency and potentially the presidency.

Chetry first asked Quinn if the questions she has raised about Palin, including her ability to be both a mother and a leader, would be questions that she would ask of a man. After firmly answering "yes," Quinn claimed that the "burden of raising children falls on the mother" and said that her questions about Palin are not sexist, they are about whether or not Palin can "do the job."

After bringing up the "country first" theme of the Republican National Convention, Quinn took a jab at McCain's age as well as Palin's ability to put country first as commander in chief: "And I think if you're talking about the commander in chief, and that is what she is likely to be given his age and his health, will she put her country first, or will she put her family first?"

Chetry then asked why Quinn was not raising the same questions about Senator Barack Obama who has two young daughters. In response, the Washington Post writer claimed, "Men go to war, women to go to war, and I think that when they do, when they go away they make a decision to put their country first." After again questioning whether or not Palin would put her country first if she were to become commander in chief, Quinn stated, "I suspect that whoever is commander in chief, if it's Barack Obama, would put his country first over his family." However, Obama never went to war. He never even served in the military. So if Quinn suspects that Obama can put his country first with two small children while never having been to war, why is she apprehensive about Palin who has demonstrated her ability to handle her family while being the chief executive of Alaska?

At the end of the interview, Quinn again questioned Palin's ability to serve because of her special needs child, claiming it's always the women who take time off to care for the child:

I know a lot of women who have special needs children and often times they will take time off. It's almost always the mother who takes the time off. How many times did we hear in this convention, single dads? Did you ever hear anyone talk about single dads? No, they talk about single moms. And the reason is because it's always the moms who are always the ones that take responsibilities in most cases.

To her credit, Chetry mentioned Palin's husband, Todd, and said his support shouldn't be counted out: "Yeah, I mean she does have a big family and she does seem to have the support of her husband as well, which, you know, you can't count that out. You can't count out how hard dads are also working and taking care of their kids."

Previously, Quinn appeared on CBS's "Early Show" and slammed her parenting saying the vice presidential nominee should "rethink her priorities."

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/lyndsi-thomas/2008/09/05/cnn-wapos-quinn-questions-palins-ability-balance-family-vice-presiden

" That's what your generation taught me, but now you want to take it back, because it doesn't go with your true arguement, you want Obama.........Lori"
To avoid confusion............dumbass. We don't argue, we eliminate problems real quick. t is easier that way Lori.

Go to the beginning
You don't know what you want
Lori knows and thinks you know
Be logical and not cynical
Nobody can do everything
That is a false promise
Only the Navy can do what needs done
What more can your ask
Lori is a jackass
A real dumbass

We will see how it works soon. We will use their resources to do it with. A guy got into politic and should of been a minister. So it got perverse and I wrote a verse. Now they both know and we collect what is due. It is better than going to the dark side of Camelot where their script is scripted to betray because you can't betray us. You can try. You will fail and fail in a grand fashion. We will make it true. It could get mor interesting and darker, depending on who does what. We have a winning plan, so you will see the truth and the light. Leave those in the dark who are already there and continue in the light. We have it all ready, set and go. Not nuch you can do about it.

I just want to see it all work her way, because there is a will. I'm waiting on a friend, another Agent 66. What can you say, the whole world is waiting on something. It is rush hour. It's happy hour here. I wonder if she is stuck in traffic and unhappy as a result. I sure hope not. You need to take some things slow and look at the big picture. You need to think long term. One today is worth all of the future. A future without her seems, I'm search for the word, there it is; a miss and life is short. It's a good thing freedom promises us eternity or we would be lost and forgotten. I'm just a soldier of fortune and I don't know why. We really don't care who the killing is affecting. Just so the children are all right with it, it will be a happy ending. Every ending is a new beginning and we go on with our mission. There is no other option, no other way. We have the will. Sorry for being so dramatic, but are not these dramatic times? You can't make hate out of love. We stand always ready. Evil is always crushed under foot. Don't let it bug you and don't squirm around.

I just looked at that time stamp. A real Catch 22 after 2. Most of it is timing, some is luck and what remains is love for two. The option is no time, bad luck and no love. Then all there is is hate and it doesn't matter what is means. It is what it is, so all we can do is carry on and keep our country the way we found it. Just great. There's your Irish math lesson for the day. We'll pass it on the way we found it for the next generation. They deserve it and they will have it.

It just got bloody Sally, so have a Bloody Mary. Don't use the Russian vodka though. It's a bloody mess.

I'm here if you need me Sally. I hope you like ice cream and cake too! Mooooooooooo.

Keep a Jug of Punch in Ice Box. This God said should br 100 Proof. Keep Fuel in my Learjet for Honeymoon and make Fetus while on Jet. Make Soup from Gods High technology Garden.

First we need to Know how LIFE began on Earth, before Male and Female can be Equal again.

How do High Tech Humans define Who and What is 'GOD'? A Spirit? A Human? A 'Human Spirit Being'? A Human Man God?

The Atom/Body, and the Electro-Magnetic Force/Spirit, is in all the Elements of LIFE, visible and invisible. Stars became Solar Systems, Galaxies, and Universes.

The Unknown 'Source' of this LIFE, is not a 'Human Spirit Being'. Humans 'are' 'Body/Spirit Being' Human Life.

At Death, Our Elements return to the Eternal Elements of LIFE, that Never Die.

'Supernatural High Tech Humans', the Gods in Religion and Myth, did Colonize Earth, flew up in the air, and out into Space.

High Tech 'Super Natural' Science returned, and Awed Natural Humans, when Electric Power was rediscovered.

Supernatural Miracles of Radio, TV, Automobiles, Airplanes, Computers, Space Shuttles, and Nuclear Bombs, happened in 100 years.

As a Child in the 1920s, I visited an Aunt in the 'Country', that still had oil lamps, wood burning stoves, a water well and windmill, an outhouse, and cars.

In 'Town', we had indoor plumbing, 'Ice Boxes' for our food, telephones, radios, and cars.

Supernatural Humans today, can Create Human fetus' in the Lab. Humans so far, cannot Reproduce Human Clones, like the Equal Adam and Eve Clones in Genesis.

Why are Unequal Male and Female Mate Humans, Killing the Humans they make by Heterosexual Body Birth? They 'are' our Brothers/Sisters of LIFE.

Why are Unequal Humans, Killing our Eco System and All Life on Earth, with our Pollution, and Weapons of Massive Destruction?

These questions can be answered by High Tech Science Pure-bred Human Reproduction in the Lab.

The High Tech Equal Human Species, not reproduced by Heterosexual Body Birth, were put in Charge of Life on Earth, until Body Birth.

Teachings are like war veterans. You get your legs blown off and can't stand on your own. Some lessons hurt more than others. We will support them and honor them. United we'll stand, even if we all can't stand we will keep lifting the spirit. We support our own freedom, with liberty and justice for all. You just squirm and lie. There's good and evil. Good is great. You can keep evil. We just keep going.

Go see Paul, I'm sure he could explain it to you. We just don't care, we have other problems to solve.

"they are convicted that the infallible, inspired Word of God teaches..."

That's the whole issue. If one is going to argue that everyone should live their personal lives a certain way, one has to present an argument that does not depend on beliefs like the one above. There is no evidence that such teachings came from supernatural beings - the beings may very well exist but the teachings may be drastically in error. For the teachings to have any validity, they would have to stand on their own.

Galatians 3:28 ("There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus") is, according to some historic Jesus exegetes, not credible as a historical utterance by either Jesus or Paul.

http://wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php/013_Two_As_One

And Paul's utterances about women give credence to this conclusion.

e.g.

"He (Paul) feared the turn-on of women's voices as much as the sight of their hair and skin..... At one point he even suggests that the sight of female hair might distract any angel in church attendance (1 Cor. 11:10).

And the following:

"In 1 Corinthians 11:3-16 Paul writes: “But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.” He goes on to say that “any woman who prays or prophesies” should keep her head covered, whereas a man should never cover his head, “since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. (For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.)”

In 1 Corinthians 14:33-35, Paul gives us the famous injunction, “… women should keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.” This theme is taken up again in 1 Timothy 2:11-15, where women are instructed to dress modestly and to keep silent in church: “For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet woman will be saved through bearing children, if she continues in faith and love and holiness, with modesty.”

Ephesians 5:21-32 is the passage that is read at every Orthodox marriage ceremony, so it’s already quite well known to us. This is the passage in which women are told to be subject to their husbands, as to the Lord, which Paul repeats briefly in his letter to the Colossians (3:18). The husband, Paul explains, “is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church.” While women are to be subject to their husbands, so men are to love their wives “as their own bodies.” “This is a great mystery,” Paul says, “and I take it to mean Christ and the church.”

Simply add Paul's thinking about women to the list of flaws in the foundations of Christianity.

Anytime a politician tells us what God wants, we need to be more than wary. If you want to see parallels with Palin's comments and Wahabism, please read this:

http://avuncularamerican.typepad.com/blog/2008/09/alaska-arabia-palin-wasilla-wahabism.html

No theocracies in America, thank you.

Truth be told, political or religious, there is plenty of trash to go around. You just need to keep cleaning up to stay alive in business. Any cleaning woman can tell you that much. Keep it clean, keep it real. We'll leave the lights on for you unless we want you in the dark. Light a candle and bite the Big Apple.

Welcome to House of Hin Restaurant
Please choose your portion
Religious Items Political Items

I put it in the freezer.

Thanks Société des Produits Nestlé S.A., Vevey, Switzerland. She is still fairer than the money.
I'm trying to find my Swiss miss, the future Mrs. Challenger. Doubtful things are uncertain and Swiss banks are certain. What's her number, I'll try calling again.

The reason some denominations do not allow women to be bishops (i.e., elders or presbyters) is that they are convicted that the infallible, inspired Word of God teaches that only men should hold that office in the church. It's God's Word, not men's tradition or ways or agendas or reasoning, that constrains them to do so. It's not a critique of women (both men and women are created in God's image, and before Him there is neither male nor female, bond nor free, etc., for God is not a respecter of persons): it's simply acknowledging what God teaches (cf. I Tim 3, and some of the passages cited in the above threads, for example). The Scripture contains a host of heroic, wise, eminently faithful women (Timothy was raised by two of them, his mother and grandmother, who are described as having "unfeigned faith," II Timothy 2:5); it does not regard women as second-class citizens by any means. That said, Scripture simply teaches that the office of bishop in the church is to be held by a man. Some denominations continue to hold to God's Word as the only standard to define faith and practice: The Word of God isn't something they mold to fit contemporary thinking or their own agendas.

A big ice cream truck just went by. That gave me a cold idea. We have guys putting people on ice, so have some ice cream with your kids today. Have an Eskimo Pie. Here is a challenge. What would you do for an Eskimo Pie?
http://www.eskimopie.com/

Inspired by a book titled, "Your God is too Small", I dare venture the speculation that the Biblical term "man" is logically not gender specific. From an infant's perspective, adult gender is not even a mystery. It does not become a mystery until a difference is detected. Experience and memory are not necessarily parallel development over time. Since Biblical terms strive to keep temporal attributes in a proper perspective relative to no-time whatsoever, temporal consciousness is hobbled by a false responsibility to the illusion of time. It is we that pass, not time. Gender specific terms seem subject to the limitations of their functions. Getting graphic about this can get steamy if not sticky, even stinky. Nevertheless it is a fact but within the limits of the validity of the terms as they correlate to reality. (Language is an abstract of reality.) A rose is a rose is a flower is a bloom. Gender differentiates functions of reproductive capacity for the species. Man cannot create himself. No matter how badly he wants the credit for creation.

This is really simple - neither McCain nor Palin are qualified for the jobs that they seek.

This is not about family values, women in office, working mothers, or any of the rest of these tangential issues - this is about qualifications, abilities, and competency to lead the country.

Neither of these two have what it takes.

So, if this is what Sally and the liberal media think of a woman who was a mayor for 6 years and a governor for 2 what do they think about us average women?

It's great that you continue to produce Sci-Fi... What a load of garbage, lies, deceit, manipulation and hate you spew... Good we have folks around like you to make fun of...

So the democrats have finally realized that mothers should stay home with the kids and not work. Families should only need to survive on the income of the father. Sarah Palin should say the Dems are right and step down as VP choice and go home to raise her family and become America's symbol to the return of the wholesome family!

RE: Interview on CNN
The emotions -- anger, amusement, indignation. I am a 64 year old woman professional who can not believe the irrational anger of liberal feminists at the nomination of Sarah Palin. Political opposition,yes, but your attacks are not "political opposition." Does it gall you that the Dems threw Clinton under the bus? Frankly, there was never any doubt the they would. Or does it gall you that we have moved to a point where women do not have to rely on whom they marry to achieve success. In selecting Palin, the Republicans have not only chosen an accomplished woman, but one who got where she is entirely as a independent entity by virtue of her own achievements and without a leg up from either her wealthy family or her successful husband/boyfriend.

Is that what has released the bile coming from your collumn? WRT to her family -- First, the children requiring direct parenting are three, not five -- their son is in the military and their daughter will be marrying. Second, her husband is a loving and very capable man who could interupt his work to take a more direct role in parenting. Third, their family is surrounded by a network of supportive family members and friends, who stand ready to assist them. Finally, they can avail themselves of nannies etc as many of your friends have done in order to continue their careers.

I am ashamed of you, ashamed of the Washington Post and ashamed of feminists. It is not necessary that we support a political ticket with which we do not agreee, but this kind of trashing is unbelievable. By the way, I have decided to support this ticket because of Sarah Palin and because John McCain showed the courage to make a bold selection. If Obama does have the courage to stand up to alpha man Bill Clinton, I shudder to think of what he will do in the international arena.

Actually, I find this dialogue's opening question in some ways more revealing than many of the answers. It not only assumes that qualifications for national leadership and church leadership are automatically comparable. There may even be a subtle implication that the first role is in some way superior to the second. Is leadership in the political realm a more substantial matter than that in the spiritual realm? I think in the American worldview it has become so, perhaps even for most Christians. "If she can be president, then ~of course~ she can be a pastor."

You should vote for Sarah Palin if you are an ultra conservative white woman, and believes in zero tolerance for abortion, in creationism, abstinence, (her underage unmarried daughter is pregnant), have five or more children and can hunt moose, and be vicious and agressive as a hockey mom. Her scarcastic barbs during her speech though entertaining, mean nothing for the common people.

Sen. John McCain has entered into a marriage of convenience with Sarah Palin to get the vote from white women. He has recklessly disregarded qualifications of the candidate for the second highest office of the land and tried to "look" like a candidate for change. Winston Churchill once said, "National Security is too important a thing to be left to Generals". The strategic direction of war is controlled by a civilian who can think of the consequences of war on the people of America, not a beligerent sabre rattling general. In the modern world war must be avoided till such times as it can and when it is no longer possible to do so, we must act swiftly and suddenly without fear to cause maximum damage to the enemy, its a princple of war called "surprise". We cannot get involved war all over the Globe which are protracted and long drawn that milk us for money and blood. John McCain is a good man and a soldier, he is not a statesman who can deal with the new world order.

You should vote for Sarah Palin if you are an ultra conservative white woman, and believes in zero tolerance for abortion, in creationism, abstinence, (her underage unmarried daughter is pregnant), have five or more children and can hunt moose, and be vicious and agressive as a hockey mom. Her scarcastic barbs during her speech though entertaining, mean nothing for the common people.

Sen. John McCain has entered into a marriage of convenience with Sarah Palin to get the vote from white women. He has recklessly disregarded qualifications of the candidate for the second highest office of the land and tried to "look" like a candidate for change. Winston Churchill once said, "National Security is too important a thing to be left to Generals". The strategic direction of war is controlled by a civilian who can think of the consequences of war on the people of America, not a beligerent sabre rattling general. In the modern world war must be avoided till such times as it can and when it is no longer possible to do so, we must act swiftly and suddenly without fear to cause maximum damage to the enemy, its a princple of war called "surprise". We cannot get involved war all over the Globe which are protracted and long drawn that milk us for money and blood. John McCain is a good man and a soldier, he is not a statesman who can deal with the new world order.

Sarah Palin's nomination has already exposed the hypocrisy of feminists. If Hillary had young kids at home, would they be questioning her priorities? It is so sad that these feminists won't get behind this woman's accomplishments and it exposes their real and truly narrow-minded and biased agenda. Palin did not pass the litmus test to get in the lefty club, so they will work to bash her. They really don't care about all women at all, just a few of them. Their behavior is just as pathetic as the NAACP's refusal to advance and promote black people with conservative values. How intelletually dishonest both groups are is staggering.

In the above comments, one thinks the liberals are anti-American and anti-women. How many little girls were raped in Iraq when Hussain was in office??? How many women were abused?? It takes a war to get freedoms back when they are taken away. What party controled the congress and voted to send the troups?? What party voted not to give the money for proper needed equipment??? It appears the Sara Palin is the best on either ticket. She is not freinds with a anit-american William Aryers nor trying to take away freedoms of any group of Americans. Americans need to listen to what the canadidates say in their speaches and who they are friends with..

The Assemblies of God (of which Gov. Palin used to be a member) has ordained women into full-time ministry in arounc 1935, and has women that are senior pastors in the denomination.

The gas station just flew by my window, so the big mission continues and good is possible. My back is killing me, so some challenges are greater than others. Walking is a bit of a challenge today. Some guys have it worse than me and I never forget that.

Well, Alaska has a population of about 670,000. That's about the same size as the city of Memphis Tennessee. To me that's simply not enough experience to be one heart beat away from the nuclear button with the oldest candidate ever tottering ahead of her.
2 years of essentially being a mayor of a middle sized city doesn't cut it in my book.
You know it, she knows it. She was once interviewed and declared that she didn't even know what the vice president does. It shows how little McCain thinks of the highest office in the land.

Since when is there a problem with hypocrisy? Can a President who has never fought in a war decide to send others to fight? Can a person who has never had a child make a decision on a woman's right to decide matters of choice? Can someone who argues for the sanctity of "life" support the death penalty?

Can insurance company employees working at denying benefits through loopholes and delays pose as "good" people at religious services on weekends?

my real and bigst job in life is to raise a good citizen ,im more than sure ,in order to make it to good healthy life for the whole society you need to go thru me,but it,s too sad i,m being pushed to the market place to work like a mule and used and abused like the the rest of the vegetables, meanwhile i leave my childern to the street and the T V and the misguided public school to raise my child ,no wonder the society is full of unstable manic delusional people they might have big job and put on sute and tie but in reality they are real bums blood sukers suking the whole society if not the whole universe backwording .what is funny ,they belive that they so advanced so freed so democratic ,in reality they are so slaved so make up ,so full of it.

let me have my job back.

my real and bigst job in life is to raise a good citizen ,im more than sure ,in order to make it to good healthy life for the whole society you need to go thru me,but it,s too sad i,m being pushed to the market place to work like a mule and used and abused like the the rest of the vegetables, meanwhile i leave my childern to the street and the T V and the misguided public school to raise my child ,no wonder the society is full of unstable manic delusional people they might have big job and put on sute and tie but in reality they are real bums blood sukers suking the whole society if not the whole universe backwording .what is funny ,they belive that they so advanced so freed so democratic ,in reality they are so slaved so make up ,so full of it.

let me have my job back.

Senators Obama, McCain and Biden, and Governor Palin all have their unique strengths and weaknesses.

It is necessary to be equally fair in assessing all the candidates.

Ultimately what matters in the final decision to vote is the strength of the team and the policies they offer.

As long as Governor Palin does not try to impose her religious views on everybody else, what does it matter whether she believes in creationism literally as in the Bible? She may believe that the world came to being from a Pizza for all the bearing it has on public policy, as long she doesn't insist that it be taught in schools.

Buddhism doesn't believe in the Big Bang, yet Buddhists are taken seriously as beings capable of rational thought.

Abortion: even some atheists are against abortion for humanitarian reasons, so it is not a religious debate. It is an ethical debate, a human rights issue for the child in the womb.

Secular leader, whether in a monarchy or a democracy, reflect the will of the secular monarch or the majority of the people which makes up the democracy.

Religious leaders look to their Scripture for guidance regarding religious leaders/priests. It seems that different interpretations are being made/possible, hence some religious groups allow women priesthood and others don't.

Governor Palin has in her life proved that her faith is compatible with her career as a politician. If there had been any problems in that area, she might never have become mayor and governor in the first place. Being chosen as the VP candidate is merely one step higher, not a completely new territory.

The question is therefore redundant.

The concern about her role of VP is misplaced. Senator McCain is not on his deathbed breathing his last, so going on and on about Gov Palin being only one heartbeat away from presidency is exaggerated.

It is a well known fact that advisers to politicians do most of the work in governments everywhere. Advisers are experts in their respective fields.

So what needs to be compared are the policies put forward by McCain-Palin team. There is no need to fear that Senator Palin would start to implement the teachings of her church if ever Senator McCain should die in office (why everyone should be concerned about that when there have been much older statesmen around the world is worth asking). As governor, Palin did not do that.

Palin will not only be surrounded by experts all the time to give her political advice, she will have more than the average woman's help to deal with housekeeping details.

Her seventeen year old daughter will be an adult by the time she delivers her baby. Besides she will have a husband by her side to take care of their child. How is that a grandmother is expected to take care of a grandchild who have both parents, who are young and healthy?

Since several rumors were floating around in the media/Internet that her own child was not her own but her daughter's, Governor Palin had to introduce her 17 year old pregnant daughter and her boyfriend who was the father of her daughter's growing child.

_______________________________________________

Compare policies of both the teams and vote the party and team that represents the better choice for the country.

Governor Palin's children is a non-issue.

Governor Palin has in her life proved that her faith is compatible with her career as a politician. If there had been any problems in that area, she might never have become mayor and governor in the first place. Being chosen as the VP candidate is merely one step higher, not a completely new territory.

The question is therefore redundant.

The concern about her role of VP is misplaced. Senator McCain is not on his deathbed breathing his last, so going on and on about Gov Palin being only one heartbeat away from presidency is exaggerated.

It is a well known fact that advisers to politicians do most of the work in governments everywhere. Advisers are experts in their respective fields.

So what needs to be compared are the policies put forward by McCain-Palin team. There is no need to fear that Senator Palin would start to implement the teachings of her church if ever Senator McCain should die in office (why everyone should be concerned about that when there have been much older statesmen around the world is worth asking). As governor, Palin did not do that.

Palin will not only be surrounded by experts all the time to give her political advice, she will have more than the average woman's help to deal with housekeeping details.

Her seventeen year old daughter will be an adult by the time she delivers her baby. Besides she will ha

Governor Palin has in her life proved that her faith is compatible with her career as a politician. If there had been any problems in that area, she might never have become mayor and governor in the first place. Being chosen as the VP candidate is merely one step higher, not a completely new territory.

The question is therefore redundant.

The concern about her role of VP is misplaced. Senator McCain is not on his deathbed breathing his last, so going on and on about Gov Palin being only one heartbeat away from presidency is exaggerated.

It is a well known fact that advisers to politicians do most of the work in governments everywhere. Advisers are experts in their respective fields.

So what needs to be compared are the policies put forward by McCain-Palin team. There is no need to fear that Senator Palin would start to implement the teachings of her church if ever Senator McCain should die in office (why everyone should be concerned about that when there have been much older statesmen around the world is worth asking). As gover

Barack has a new plan. The veterans are evil and he is good. He's Wright with the Lord and McCain is in league with the devil/\What a joke. They are the village people and you are in the Navy.

If my grandmother looked over all this she would be sick. We get to dishonor our veterans and live a big lie and a bunch of hate for promises broken. It is the new new deal and you get to dishonor your grandmother. The professionals all get to be hacks and we all get used for the sake of a bunch of lies and damn lies. They have a warchest and a good story though. They have million in spoiled loot. Even Sally gets victimized for the sake of lies.

I'll never hate you. I discovered you aren't worth so much emotion. You are hate and that is enough for both of you. I need more, I need love. That is hard to find. This server is just loaded with hate, which says something about those who own the thing. I guess it pays the bills. Not my sort of business.

There are the soulless, who will do anything for more power. We don't all have souls. What you think you know and what you don't know are two different things. The devil always takes the woman first, for they can't be easy. Leave them alone to deal with the aftermath. We have work to do. In other words, we don't give a damn.

Then again you could not love her anymore. You see the other side, the dark side and she squirmed and you knew you were seeing their evil. I guess I went and broke their family tradition. I have things to go and burn. Letters I should not of written, for they only speak of pain and betrayed trust for the sake of a love that could bever be true. I saw hate here and I know where it came from. It's over now. You are only as good as the people you serve. Good luck Sally. I know you are good, I'm not sure about those you are serving. Trust is often misplaced. It is always found again. The truth goes marching on.

we are all God's children and therefore each capable of being clergy in a church...gender should not be a an issue...we all have souls...too bad others feel threatened by equity

Perhaps I was wrong. In this case being wrong seems better than being right. You can't always be right. With love you can win them all, because love is never wrong. Love of country is a beautiful thing.

Get ready, for this is the part where the pains come along from Camp Pain, all to turn something good into something evil. Watch the comments. They will go from bad to desperate to truly evil. It's the new thing and anything sweet needs to be made sour for the sake of destruction and hate. A union of sick souls looking to destroy wealth at every turn. The mortgage people.

"Special Woman"

You love her like no other
Could not love her more
You know her warm heart
The wonder of her beautiful soul
She stays with you
Her tears are yours
She brings you joy
That is your pleasure
For she is special
She is woman
She is love
They can not defeat that
She can only be good
Love can only be shared
If it is true
You are special
I love You

Written for You

Fetus labs and nukes in the air. A real pleasure revolution. God has weapons and we are just borrowing them. God created atomic bombs and man took credit. God really bombed the Japs because he was growing tired of the war. God is at Pearl Harbor sailing an old sailboat around the harbor drinking beer and fishing. God has a Learjet and atomic bombs to drop on the Saudi evil doers. I have a bottle of Johnnie Walker, no nukes though. Happy hour is getting happy.

Wiccan,

Your passage from Galicians 3:28 is, according to some historic Jesus exegetes not credible as a historical utterance by either Jesus or Paul.

http://wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php/013_Two_As_One

And Paul's utterances about women give credence to this conclusion.

e.g.

"He (Paul) feared the turn-on of women's voices as much as the sight of their hair and skin..... At one point he even suggests that the sight of female hair