Comments on Saddleback Forum: Faith and Politics: On Faith at washingtonpost.com

Mr Mark :

TV audience for Rev Rick's religious litmus test:

5.5 million

Audience for the Olympics during the same time slot on NBC:

32 million

August 25, 2008 6:15 PM | Report Offensive Comment

TTWSYFAMDGGAHJMJ :

IN REPLY TO (IRT)
VICTORIA
“GOD AND MAN”

IRT:
[To deny one a Right to Life is to deny God’s will. God wills man to live by creating him, but the Abortionist and a mother deny her unborn child his life, and rebukes God’s will.]

“To rebuke god is to have power over him?”

ANS:
One can rebuke (used as meaning a sharp disapproval) in different ways. Hence, a child can rebuke his mother and father’s wishes but he receives the consequences, and therefore doesn’t have power over them. One can also rebuke another’s wishes because he does have power over them as the father and mother rebuke their child’s wishes. They have power over him and suffer no consequences.

The term is used in the first sense.

IRT:
"Either god is omnipotent- or not.
Your theology gives man a power over god."

ANS:
To the contrary, God has given the power to man to refuse to love Him and obey Him since God gave man freewill.

If man chooses not to obey the wishes of God, man suffers the consequences. The consequences are of God’s domain, the power to refuse is of man’s domain by virtue of his freewill given to man by God. However, man has no power to avoid the consequences, and therefore, has no power over God.

IRT:
“What is absent in your reasoning is that if god wills a baby not to be born- they are not.”

ANS:
A child is a gift from God. God can give the gift or withhold it, and sometimes He does for reasons unknown to man, because the ways of God are not always known by man.

IRT:
“There are babies that die at 1 day- 2 days- 3 weeks-people that die at 3,5,13,34,68. Who are you to tell people what god can and cannot accomplish? Who are you to limit god, and make man more powerful?”

ANS:
People die because of Adam's sin; God created man perfect. Adam screwed up everything.

I do not tell God anything, he tells man what to do through His Church of which He gives the powers to teach without error in matters of faith and morals. Hence, it is written:

Mt 16:19, Mt 18:18
"And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven."

Moreover, Jesus crowned His church with the gift of infallibility in that man might have complete certitude in the Church’s teachings. Thus Scriptures says this in Mt. 28:20 Mt.10; John 15: 26-27.

Mt. 28:20: "Teach and obey everything I have commanded you. And, surely, I am with you always, to the very end of the age." Mt.10: "For it will not be YOU speaking but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you." John 15: 26-27 "When the counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, He will testify about me. And, you must also testify about me, who has been with me from the beginning.”

IRT:
You commit a heresy with your own bible by doing so.” according to the Bible, not one of us has the right to life."

ANS:
God said, “Go forth and multiply—Gen 2 cf.” Why would God say such if He weren’t giving man a Right to Life? Moreover, he said about little children:

Mrk. 9:42
“But he that shall scandalize one of these little ones that believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone should be hanged about his neck, and that he should be drowned in the depth of the sea," (also in Lu 17:2).

Hence, no other interpretation is possible but that man has a Right to Life that is given to him by God.

IRT;
[To deny one a Right to Life is to deny God’s will.]

“First you deny we have a right to life-
then argue that to deny a right to life is to deny god's will.”

ANS:
That is ridiculous. I said we have a Right to Life that is an inalienable right given to man by God and to deny man the Right to Life is to disobey God’s Natural and Moral Laws a.k.a. God's will.

IRT:
"If god wills the right to life-, why does the bible deny it? and why does the bible forbid suicide if it is out of our control?"

ANS:
Where does the Bible deny the Right to Life? Moreover, the Church God established on Earth defends the Right to Life and all its dignity, and His Church is infallible as just shown.

Suicide is against the Fifth Commandment, "Thou shalt not kill, viz. murder thy self." Since all life is given by God, by His authority, God can and does forbids murder. People out of their mind are not morally responsible.

IRT:
“Your reasoning is crazy from a Christian perspective, AND an atheist one.” That is quite a rare accomplishment.

ANS:
To the contrary, a "rare accomplishment" is your incomprehensible conclusion. So as the Irish say, “Smile and give your face a holiday, because God wills that you be happy and a smile is a sign of happiness.

August 25, 2008 9:49 AM | Report Offensive Comment

pontificator :

CCNL - the Moral Majority became a political force to contend with through the efforts of the late, lamented Jerry Falwell and fellow fundamentalists back in the early 1970's....long before Bill's indiscretions. On the other hand, Bill's popularity actually increased after the impeachment hearings - something Newt, et al didn't bargain for.

Al Gore made a number of mis-steps and gaffs in his campaign, and one was marginalizing Bill Clinton ... the other was selecting Joe Lieberman as his running mate.

And then, the old, pre-global warming Al didn't really present well and couldn't tune up an audience like the new Al - smart though he was and is.

But in the end, it took the Supreme Court to defeat Al as we all recall - the rest is history.

Bill's libidenous peccadillos probably had little to do with Hillary's recent failure to convert her early and enviable position as the democratic frontrunner into a decisive victory. The new Bill is seemingly only a shadow of the old Bill, and that didn't help Hil like many expected.

On the other hand, I doubt if Hillary has completely 'thrown in the towel'. Hillary will be ready for 2012 should there be an opportunity .... Obama will be under considerable pressure to achieve more than would normally be expected of first-term presidents, whether fairly or otherwise. We sincerely hope he and Joe rise to the occasion.

Obama/Biden in '08!!!

August 25, 2008 8:43 AM | Report Offensive Comment

TTWSYFAMDGGAHJMJ :

IN REPLY TO (IRT)
VICTORIA
“GOD AND MAN”

IRT:
"So god isn't omniscient? And she didn't know in advance, what was going to happen?"

ANS:
Oh, God is every bit Omniscient and He knows the past, present, and future, since he doesn't exists in time. However, God gave man a freewill that man may freely choose the Good who is God.

So God made man for eternal happiness not to die. ““And the Lord God had planted a paradise of pleasure from the beginning: wherein he placed man whom he had formed. (Gen 2: 8cf.)”

However, Adam had a change of mind. Satan, know as Lucifer the Light of Heaven, the greatest Creature God had created and also had a freewill; but, Satan as Adam, thought he was as great as God.

God made man from out of His Love for man, and crowned man with all the amenities necessary to be in Paradise with Him for all eternity.

God made Adam to His own image and likeness and gave him dominion over all the Universe that man might use the Universe to accomplish his final destination, eternal happiness with God (Gen. 1:26)

Hence, man longs for eternal happiness but can never find it in the world because the world is not eternal. Thus, says St Augustine, “Lord, you created us for yourself; our hearts are restless until they rest in you.”

However, what kind of love is there if man is forced to love God? God did not want that kind of love, a pseudo love, which would be no love at all. Thus, God gave man a freewill that man would come to Him by his own choice.

That’s what is meant when it is said, God did not plan for man to be in Hell but to be in Heaven. But, man had to choose God and those who didn’t and don’t end up in Hell, a place created for Satan and all who think they are their own God. So God does not send people to Hell, they send themselves.

Second, God has no Gender, a being with gender is a composite being and not an eternal being, but God is eternal as Aristotle shows in his demonstration of God’s existence from Motion.

God is Father in that He is the Creator of man and watches over man, assists man in his needs, and protects man, at man’s request, like a Father. Hence, there are multiple Scriptural quotes by Jesus:

Mt 5:16
“So let your light shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven,” and Mt 5:45 “That you may be the children of your Father who is in heaven, who maketh His sun to rise upon the good, and bad, and raineth upon the just and the unjust.”

IRT:
“And man has that creative control, to manifest death into being?”

ANS:
The evidence is man dies. Man has the power to sin; he did and brought death down upon all humanity.

God in His Mercy and Justice has the power to discipline man for his transgressions; for God not to do so, God would be unjust, but God is Justice. For God to be unjust would be a contradiction. But God cannot contradict himself, for Truth cannot contradict Truth and God is Truth.

Now God is also Merciful, but to receive the Mercy of God, man must ask for it and be repentant with a firm purpose of amendment to sin no more.

If by Creation we mean something from nothing, then no one has that power but God. However, man, since he has freewill, he has the power to choose his destiny a.k.a. life in Heaven or death in Hell.

IRT:
“…it wasn't god's will or choice or creation?
Where did Adam find death to bring it into the world?"

ANS:
It was God’s Justice that disciplined Adam, but it was Adam who brought God’s Justice down upon him.

Thus, it is written in Gen. 3:17:
“And to Adam God said: ‘Because thou hast hearkened to the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee, that thou shouldst not eat, cursed is the earth in thy work: with labor and toil shalt thou eat thereof all the days of thy life.

“Because,” is the operative word. Adam’s sin, Original Sin brought death upon him and all humanity.

Hence, it is written:
“Thorns and thistles shall it bring forth to thee, and thou shalt eat the herbs of the earth. 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread till thou return to the earth out of which thou wast taken: for dust thou art, and into dust thou shalt return—Gen. 2: 19.”

IRT:
Did god already create it as an option that Adam utilized?

ANS:
Yes, God gave Adam the option. Thus, God said “But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat. For in what day so ever thou shalt eat of it, thou shalt die the death.—Gen 2 1cf.”

Eternal death or eternal punishment, or the denial of God’s love, already existed in Hell and with Satan. Adam chose to turn from God, and he sinned against God. Hence Adam forfeited all that God had gave him and planned for him.

“And the Lord God having formed out of the ground all the beasts of the earth, and all the fowls of the air, brought them to Adam to see what he would call them: for whatsoever Adam called any living creature the same is its name.” The option was Adam’s choice, not God’s choice.

August 25, 2008 7:28 AM | Report Offensive Comment

Concerned The Christian Now Liberated :

O'Victoria, O'Vicotoria, O'Victoria,

Hmmm, now you are the resident theologian?? Strange since you cannot even come to grips with the flaws and errors of Islam.

Once again for your perusal of the flaws and errors of Islam:

Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, who also had embellishing/hallucinating/ plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the assassination of Bhutto, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/ mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.

And who funds this muck and stench of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

Current crises:

The Sunni-Shiite blood feud and the warmongering, womanizing (11 wives), hallucinating founder-

August 25, 2008 3:35 AM | Report Offensive Comment

VICTORIA :

TTW... your theology has a few holes-
************
"but according to the Bible, not one of us has the right to life. In fact, through Adam and Eve, each of us has the right to death and judgment of our sins."
******************
By that reasoning- only god has a right to life- and gives and takes it at will-
which is why suicide is prohibited-

**************
When God created man, he didn’t plan man to die. Adam brought death into the world with Original Sin.
***************

So god isn't omiscient? And she didn't know in advance what was going to happen?
And man has that creative control, to maifest death into being?
it wasn''t god's will or choice or creation?
Where did Amdam find deathto ibring it into the world?
Did god already create it as an ooption that Adam utilized?

"To deny one a Right to Life is to deny God’s will. God wills man to live by creating him, but the Abortionist and a mother deny her unborn child his life, and rebukes God’s will."

To rebuke god is to have power over him?

Either god is omnipotent- or not.
Your theology gives man a power over god.

What is absent in your reasoning is that if god wills a baby not to be born- they are not.

There are babies that die at 1 day- 2 days- 3 weeks-
people that die at 3,5,13,34,68 ...

Who are you to tell people what god can and cannot accomplish?
who are you to limit god, and make man more powerful?

You commit a heresy with your own bible by doing so.

"according to the Bible, not one of us has the right to life."
"To deny one a Right to Life is to deny God’s will."

First you deny we have a right to life-
then argue that to deny a right to life is to deny god's will-

if god wills the right to life- why does the bible deny it?

and why does the bible forbid suicide if it is out of our control?

Your reasoning is crazy from a christian perpsective, AND an atheist one.

That is quite a rare accomplishment.

August 25, 2008 1:27 AM | Report Offensive Comment

Concerned The Christian Now Liberated :

Blame Bill Clinton for the rise of the moral majority. His adulterous activities reminded all parents i.e. voters that the Ten Commandments are important rules for our leaders to follow. Al Gore and Hillary's chances to become president evaporated because of Bill's "out of pants" frolicking.

August 25, 2008 12:38 AM | Report Offensive Comment

Henry James :

It was much more seemly when Presidents like Harry Truman and Eisenhower kept their private religious beliefs private.

It is quite unseemly, and ripe for exploitation of God and one's sanctimony, this current practice of forcing candidates to testify on the public stump what their relationship is with whatever they define as God (and it usually involves Jesus).

And watching Mccain have to pretend to be religious is positively painful

August 24, 2008 7:03 PM | Report Offensive Comment

TTWSYFAMDGGAHJMJ :

IN REPLY TO (IRT)
ANONYMOUS:
“A RIGHT TO LIFE?”

IRT:
“I think of the Savior's own words in response”: Thou child of Hell, why tempt ye Me?" Yes, it does say in our Constitution that we have an inalienable right to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness, but according to the Bible, not one of us has the right to life. In fact, through Adam and Eve, each of us has the right to death and judgment of our sins. Therefore, to attempt to legislate anyone's Right To Life makes that portion of the Constitution heresy.”

ANS:
If no one has a Right to Life, then do you justify murder? The Supreme Court justified it in "Roe."

Since you claim we have no inalienable right to live, can the State go around killing whom ever they wish, as they have in abortion, as did Hitler, Stalin, and Mao, Idi Amin, Saddam, and bin Laden who also believed there was no Right to Life? Now that would be ridiculous wouldn’t it?

To say there is no Right to Life is to say that it is not unjust intentionally to take an innocent human life, viz. that there is. a right to murder anyone. I think that's unequivocally refuted by the Fifth Commandment and sane societies.

Hitler decided that invalids, the infirm, and the aged served no purpose to the State and were a drag on the State’s resources. Consequently, he started executing them for the good of the State.

Hitler also decided Jews held all the financial resources that he needed to carry out his nefarious conquests, so he attempted to exterminate them too. Saddam decided that he didn’t like his son-in-laws and shot two of them at his palace while eating.

Marx thought there was no Right to Life and that man existed for the State. Hence, the State had the authority to say if you could live or die.

Stalin, of the USSR, decided he had too many starving people to feed, and so he initiated a plan to starve and murder them called the Gulag prisons.

China, a Marxist nation, decided that they have too many people, and therefore, pregnant women more than two children must have their baby murdered by abortion.

Moreover, China expanded its NO RIGHT TO LIFE policy by expanding a new human organ industry. Prisoners, who have no right to life, have become the supply and suppliers for China’s human organ industry on the world market.

Why would God create you and create the Universe for you, tell Adam and Eve to go forth and multiply, if God didn’t think you had a right to live? Therefore, God would be contradicting Himself (which is impossible), if God didn’t give you a Right to Life.

Second, legislature, or anyone, has no authority to legislate a Right to Life or any other inalienable right. The Constitution and Declaration of Independence concur.

When government, says the Declaration, continuously persists in violating your inalienable rights, the citizens not only have a right to overthrow the government and restore these rights, but a duty to do so.

Hence, the Constitution, nor government, do not give man a Right to Life or any inalienable right, but are obliged to recognizes them and protects them.

Man does not give one inalienable rights; God does that. To deny one a Right to Life is to deny God’s will. God wills man to live by creating him, but the Abortionist and a mother deny her unborn child his life, and rebukes God’s will.

Further what man gives, man can take away. But, man does not give life, God does. Therefore, man cannot take, unjustly and intentionally, an innocent human life; it's called murder, and all societies must recognize it as murder.

When God created man, he didn’t plan man to die. Adam brought death into the world with Original Sin.

Man’s soul is immortal, as Scripture says, and as we can deduce from man’s nature by reason. Man has a spiritual essence, and spiritual essences are not corruptible but eternal. Hence, Scripture tells us that man, in the final end, does not die, but he will suffer eternal punishment in Hell, or eternal happiness in Heaven.

IRT:
Case in point: the wealthy man who drifted off to sleep thinking about tearing down his silos to build bigger silos to hold even more grain. Did the Lord say to him, "you have the Right to Life, so go forth and continue on amassing wealth?" No! He said, "Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee." Do you understand? Not one of us has the right to life.

ANS:
God was not addressing man’s Right to Life, He was addressing the rich man's selfishness as he did in Luke 16: 22cf.

Hence, God made man for eternal happiness in Heaven; man’s treasures on earth are a temporary means for man to obtain the purpose for which he was created; that is eternal happiness in heaven.

This is explained in Luke 12: 22-40. Thus, it is written, “Make to yourselves bags which grow not old, a treasure in heaven which faileth not: where no thief approacheth, nor moth corrupteth.”

August 24, 2008 11:58 AM | Report Offensive Comment

Anonymous :

Americas poor are being exploited and put on the front lines to ensure further profits for America's rich. Its for this reason it's ridiculous and self defeating to be 'anti-American'. America is not one homogeneous mass of brutality.

One fifth the armed forces are African-American. [1]

Asians and Latinos are in the army, hoping to get citizenship. What a great system. Get the blacks, Asians, Latinos and poor whites to fight your boardroom battles for you.

1. David R. Segal and Mary W. Segal, 'Army Recruitment Goals Endangered as percent of African-Americans Enlistees Declines' ,

August 24, 2008 10:54 AM | Report Offensive Comment

pontificator :

Vote Obama/Biden in '08 to continue with fully protected reproductive rights in the USA - and to end the war in Iraq.

Given that about 50% of all Catholics are pro-choice, 35 million Catholics can't be wrong.

Enhanced sex education, widely available conventional birth control methods and morning after pills will greatly reduce the number of abortions - attempts to prevent pro-choice rights will continue to fail.

Illegalizing abortion is not the answer, and won't prevent anything. A significant percentage of abortions are obtained by single women of lower socio-economic income status and with a limited educational background.

Doing something significant to change that demographic reality will also contribute greatly to lower abortion numbers. Try fixing problems from the bottom up for a change - rather than based on the anti-abortion ideal of educated, well placed and largely white Christian believers.

My advice to you - don't have an abortion under any circumstance, and don't support pre-meditated and pre-emptive war on sovereign nations.

Biden voted to give that power to Bush as a last resort, and has long regretted it - although his first concern was always the issue of weapons of mass destruction rather than deposing Saddam Hussein.

This was counter to the already-established and covert Cheney/Bush plan for pre-emptive war....they cared nothing for the infamous red herring - 'weapons of mass destruction'.

So consider that before blasting Biden for supporting the war. Obama opposed it from the first. McCain would probably carry the war to Iran if at all possible.

August 24, 2008 10:40 AM | Report Offensive Comment

Brother Richard :

Most everyone brings up some very important points. However, I feel, many are missing the main points of the debate.

While in America we are free to practice (or not) our religion as we choose, we are not entitled to automatic respect. In public discourse, every "world view" needs to be judged as to whether it is based on religious dogma or philosophy and reason. To simply state that a view is based on one's faith, should not end debate or make it automatically equal to all others.

As a former minister who is now an atheist, I sent a letter to Pastor Warren about the forum he hosted. I don't expect him to respond, so I also posted it on my site as well. I would love any feedback ( http://tiny.cc/fio5K ).

August 24, 2008 10:31 AM | Report Offensive Comment

Anonymous :

'If every avenue of non violent dissent is closed or mocked off or broken, then by default you privilege violence. When all your respect and admiration and research and media coverage and the whole economy is based on war and violence, when violence is deified, on what grounds are you going to condemn terrorism?'

August 24, 2008 10:16 AM | Report Offensive Comment

dollar inc :

ideology and power.

the holy roman empire was driven by 2 drive,

1-catholism .
2-money and power.

the pope suply and support the ideology while the emperor suply and support the money and the power.

the pope suply the sacredness while the emperor suply and support the system.

the pope franchise divinism to the emperior while the emperior feed and kik back and totally and monarch the money .

please describe the above relation in 2008 currencey coin.

in a juchristiancapitalisticsecularistic society who is the way the truth and life?

August 24, 2008 8:29 AM | Report Offensive Comment

Anonymous :

For three and a half decades abortion has been marketed as "reproductive choice" as late term contraception. By referring to the growing baby in the womb as a clump of cells/parasite etc, the real nature of abortion has been denied, namely the killing of an unborn child.

When such a propaganda has been around for so long, it is no wonder that it has become part of the normal thinking process. It is a wonder, considering how aggressively a pro-abortionist propaganda has been propagated for so long that pro-life groups have not given up.

Proper education about what abortion is really about needs to stepped up. At least consciences that have not yet been hardened by the pro-abortionist propaganda should be made aware and sensitive to the real science concerning abortion.

The hardened responses of pro-abortionists on this forum, whether believer or atheist, shows that those who have bought into the propaganda over several years are beyond reach.

The hope for change lies with the young who are still uncorrupted by pro-abortion lies.

August 24, 2008 6:55 AM | Report Offensive Comment

Anonymous :

Here a few facts regarding the "abortion-on-demand" development:

Availability of contraceptives --1960

Sexual revolution -- 1967

Roe vs Wade -- 1973

Ultrasound to monitor child in the womb --1976

Fetology: treatment of child in the womb late 1970s.

Abortion pre Roe vs Wade - one hundred thousand per year

Abortion POST Roe vs Wade - 1.4 MILLION per year

August 24, 2008 6:44 AM | Report Offensive Comment

Anonymous :

Valerie K. :

What was Pastor Warren's first question to Obama? A delicately-worded trap having to do with whether the President of the United States should be required to legislate abortions as illegal?

I think of the Savior's own words in response: "Thou child of Hell, why tempt ye Me?" Yes, it does say in our Constitution that we have an inalienable right to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness, but according to the Bible, not one of us has the right to life. In fact, through Adam and Eve, each of us has the right to death and judgment of our sins. Therefore, to attempt to legislate anyone's Right To Life makes that portion of the Constitution heresy.

Case in point: the wealthy man who drifted off to sleep thinking about tearing down his silos to build bigger silos to hold even more grain. Did the Lord say to him, "you have the Right to Life, so go forth and continue on amassing wealth?" No! He said, "Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee." Do you understand? Not one of us has the right to life.

When Jesus caught the Pharisees about to stone the woman caught in adultery, did he hand out picket signs to the bystanders saying, "Yes! Let's make an example of this woman. Stone her for breaking my father's holy law!" No! He said, "Ye who are without sin, cast the first stone. And for all the rest of you, here's a sign-up sheet. The woman about to walk out of this abortion clinic needs good churchgoing women to volunteer their time watching her other 5 children so she can go out and put food on the table."

Listen here, you right-to-lifers, getting ready to reach into a strange woman's uterus to protect the unborn: Last I checked, violating a woman's private parts is called Rape. Pastor Warren and other evangelicals resemble rapists when they talk about these unseemly things. Meanwhile, a slow-motion mass murder is going on in this country concerning young children who go without proper food, clothing, schooling and guidance as they grow. This is our nation in embryo we're aborting as we strain at the pro-choice gnat to swallow the poverty camel.

I can tell you that in this election you can either vote about what's going on in your wallet or someone else's bedroom. One or the other. Please choose wisely. I'm pro-Choice and I'm choosing the wallet, because I don't want to abort America's youth. Don't condemn yourselves by choosing thy neighbor's bedroom as a platform. Being a gossip will get you in trouble! Read Proverbs.

God bless you all, Readers.

August 23, 2008 4:44 AM

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

An interestingly perverse take on anti-abortion position of Christians by a Christian!

Funny how murderers get sent to jail, considering nobody has a right to life.

Read online Psalm 139 and Luke chapter 1; and don't forget the Ten Commandments.

After that view some YouTube videos of fetal development, abortion procedures. Read a bit of human embryology; what Fetologists have to say about the child growing in the womb. Finally read the Hippocratic Oath by Hippocrates, the Father of Western medicine.

And until you have done all of that honestly, DON'T tell anyone who is trying to speak on behalf of the innocent, voiceless children growing in the womb, killed in the thousands everyday in name of "reproductive freedom," and telling a woman not to abort her child amounts to "Rape!"

August 24, 2008 5:39 AM | Report Offensive Comment

Concerned The Christian Now Liberated :

O'Victoria, O'Victoria, O'Victoria,

Again we know you believe in the paranormal. Now how about the your other Islamic beliefs?

Again: Do you believe,

2. That the long-dead Arab did actually talk to the "pretty Gabriel" in the "Gabe" cave and therein received the warmongering and anti-female words now listed in the koran?

3. That Sunnis are superior to Shiites in all aspects of life?

4. That Islam is perfect and the koran inherently condones no sin even though the 24/7 800 year-old feud between Sunnis and Shiites give significant credence that suicides, assassinations, maiming, and murder are condoned by the koran?

5. That having multiple wives also gives significant credence to the sins of lust and polygamy?

6. That the condoned treatment of these wives gives credence that the koran allows the sins of anger and greed?

7. And that Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s book, Infidel, is her autobiography and that in the paperback issue, p. 47 the statement:

"Some of the Saudi women in our neighborhood were regularly beaten by their husbands. You could hear them at night. Their screams resounded across the courtyards. "No! Please! By Allah!"

is the truth?????

August 23, 2008 11:43 PM | Report Offensive Comment

VICTORIA :

O'BIDEN! O'BIDEN! O'BIDEN!

August 23, 2008 6:11 PM | Report Offensive Comment

Dolores Lear :

Humans need High Tech Science Books, to Understand Religion and Myth.

What are the 'things' of GOD in Religion and Myth? GOD is the Invisible Creator of the Atom and Electro-Magnetic Force, and the Life Elements Seen/Visible and Unseen/Invisible.

GOD made the Universes with Galaxies, and Solar Systems with Planets, that High Tech Humans, nor Natural Humans can make. GOD is not Visible, except in the Things Made by GOD.

Humans, with High Tech Science, or Natural Science, can make Life Species from their Seed; they cannot make the Seed. High Tech Science Humans, called Gods, did Colonize Planet Earth, 'in the beginning'.

Our Home Planet was 'null and void' of Life, as recorded in Genesis 1,2. High Tech Science Humans, Created an Eco System and all Life Species, on Planet Earth, with GODs Elements.

These Human Male and Female Clone Gods, made the Original Human Clones, 'in their Image' by High Tech Science Reproduction. These Pure-bred Clones, Started Mis-bred Heterosexual Body Birth Life on Earth.

It is Time to Know What 'Things' are Created by GOD. What 'things' are Created by High Tech Peace Human Being Gods. What 'things are Created by High Tech Killer Human Being Gods. And, What 'things' are Created by Natural Human Beings.

All Life that Dies on Earth, returns to GODs Eternal Invisible Elements, After Death. GODs Invisible Elements, have Existed Forever in GODs Universes.

GOD is the Source of the Universes, for the Living Humans and, for the Elements of Dead Humans and All Life. Human Clone Gods are the Equal Living Human Species After Birth, on Planets and in Spaceships.

Eternal Human Life, is for the Living Male and Female Clone Humans. Dead Human Elements return to GODs Elements, to be Used again by Natural, and High Tech Science Humans, and All Life.

August 23, 2008 4:59 PM | Report Offensive Comment

Mr Mark :

More Americans Question Religion's Role in Politics

Some Social Conservative Disillusionment

August 21, 2008

Some Americans are having a change of heart about mixing religion and politics. A new survey finds a narrow majority of the public saying that churches and other houses of worship should keep out of political matters and not express their views on day-to-day social and political matters. For a decade, majorities of Americans had voiced support for religious institutions speaking out on such issues.

The new national survey by the Pew Research Center reveals that most of the reconsideration of the desirability of religious involvement in politics has occurred among conservatives. Four years ago, just 30% of conservatives believed that churches and other houses of worship should stay out of politics. Today, 50% of conservatives express this view.

As a result, conservatives' views on this issue are much more in line with the views of moderates and liberals than was previously the case. Similarly, the sharp divisions between Republicans and Democrats that previously existed on this issue have disappeared.

There are other signs in the new poll about a potential change in the climate of opinion about mixing religion and politics. First, the survey finds a small but significant increase since 2004 in the percentage of respondents saying that they are uncomfortable when they hear politicians talk about how religious they are -- from 40% to 46%. Again, the increase in negative sentiment about religion and politics is much more apparent among Republicans than among Democrats.

http://pewresearch.org/pubs/930/religion-politics

August 23, 2008 2:06 PM | Report Offensive Comment

Concerned The Christian Now Liberated :

Valerie, Valerie, Valerie, Valerie, Valerie, Valerie, Valerie, (one for each of your sequential repetitions),

Taking select passages from the Book of Mormon i.e. Joe Smith's "Book of Con", and Luke and John which do not have any relevance to the Right to Life (specific parables about rich farmers and adulterers) to prove humans do not have a right to life is very odd and is vitiated by the Command: Thou Shalt Not Kill"!!!!!!!

August 23, 2008 12:55 PM | Report Offensive Comment

Aquarius :

I forgot to answer the original question:

It's a non-issue. Media and spirituality are inseparable, whether one believes in it or not.

As a proof - the contents of my iPod (in the brief period of time I used last.fm):

http://www.last.fm/user/aquariusv

August 23, 2008 9:17 AM | Report Offensive Comment

Jeff D :

"We believe in separation of church and state, but not faith and politics." -- Rick Warren

I am not part of Warren's "we" and I have never been. I can and do have confidence in other people whose judgment I value. I can practice a provisional trust in my fellow citizens and even in government officials until they prove themselves untrustworthy. I can even find (or summon up) courage and hope. But I don't have "faith" (believing or pretending to believe in manifest nonsense without evidentiary support), and I don't want it. I think "faith" is poison to politics (judging from the last 8 years alone, and also from America's earlier dalliances with faith-influenced politics (1976-80).

I'm not a part of Warren's we because he claims to speak for a group that is labeled "values voters" by even the mainstream "liberal media." The pundits and political reporters feel no need to explain further, other than to use the shorthand "values voters," because "everyone understands" that they mean fundagelicals, "people of faith." One implication is that if an American voter is not (or doesn't pretend to be) religious, he or she doesn't have values and does not vote based on "values."

August 23, 2008 6:10 AM | Report Offensive Comment

Valerie K. :

What was Pastor Warren's first question to Obama? A delicately-worded trap having to do with whether the President of the United States should be required to legislate abortions as illegal?

I think of the Savior's own words in response: "Thou child of Hell, why tempt ye Me?" Yes, it does say in our Constitution that we have an inalienable right to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness, but according to the Bible, not one of us has the right to life. In fact, through Adam and Eve, each of us has the right to death and judgment of our sins. Therefore, to attempt to legislate anyone's Right To Life makes that portion of the Constitution heresy.

Case in point: the wealthy man who drifted off to sleep thinking about tearing down his silos to build bigger silos to hold even more grain. Did the Lord say to him, "you have the Right to Life, so go forth and continue on amassing wealth?" No! He said, "Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee." Do you understand? Not one of us has the right to life.

When Jesus caught the Pharisees about to stone the woman caught in adultery, did he hand out picket signs to the bystanders saying, "Yes! Let's make an example of this woman. Stone her for breaking my father's holy law!" No! He said, "Ye who are without sin, cast the first stone. And for all the rest of you, here's a sign-up sheet. The woman about to walk out of this abortion clinic needs good churchgoing women to volunteer their time watching her other 5 children so she can go out and put food on the table."

Listen here, you right-to-lifers, getting ready to reach into a strange woman's uterus to protect the unborn: Last I checked, violating a woman's private parts is called Rape. Pastor Warren and other evangelicals resemble rapists when they talk about these unseemly things. Meanwhile, a slow-motion mass murder is going on in this country concerning young children who go without proper food, clothing, schooling and guidance as they grow. This is our nation in embryo we're aborting as we strain at the pro-choice gnat to swallow the poverty camel.

I can tell you that in this election you can either vote about what's going on in your wallet or someone else's bedroom. One or the other. Please choose wisely. I'm pro-Choice and I'm choosing the wallet, because I don't want to abort America's youth. Don't condemn yourselves by choosing thy neighbor's bedroom as a platform. Being a gossip will get you in trouble! Read Proverbs.

God bless you all, Readers.

August 23, 2008 4:44 AM | Report Offensive Comment

Valerie K. :

What was Pastor Warren's first question to Obama? A delicately-worded trap having to do with whether the President of the United States should be required to legislate abortions as illegal?

I think of the Savior's own words in response: "Thou child of Hell, why tempt ye Me?" Yes, it does say in our Constitution that we have an inalienable right to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness, but according to the Bible, not one of us has the right to life. In fact, through Adam and Eve, each of us has the right to death and judgment of our sins. Therefore, to attempt to legislate anyone's Right To Life makes that portion of the Constitution heresy.

Case in point: the wealthy man who drifted off to sleep thinking about tearing down his silos to build bigger silos to hold even more grain. Did the Lord say to him, "you have the Right to Life, so go forth and continue on amassing wealth?" No! He said, "Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee." Do you understand? Not one of us has the right to life.

When Jesus caught the Pharisees about to stone the woman caught in adultery, did he hand out picket signs to the bystanders saying, "Yes! Let's make an example of this woman. Stone her for breaking my father's holy law!" No! He said, "Ye who are without sin, cast the first stone. And for all the rest of you, here's a sign-up sheet. The woman about to walk out of this abortion clinic needs good churchgoing women to volunteer their time watching her other 5 children so she can go out and put food on the table."

Listen here, you right-to-lifers, getting ready to reach into a strange woman's uterus to protect the unborn: Last I checked, violating a woman's private parts is called Rape. Pastor Warren and other evangelicals resemble rapists when they talk about these unseemly things. Meanwhile, a slow-motion mass murder is going on in this country concerning young children who go without proper food, clothing, schooling and guidance as they grow. This is our nation in embryo we're aborting as we strain at the pro-choice gnat to swallow the poverty camel.

I can tell you that in this election you can either vote about what's going on in your wallet or someone else's bedroom. One or the other. Please choose wisely. I'm pro-Choice and I'm choosing the wallet, because I don't want to abort America's youth. Don't condemn yourselves by choosing thy neighbor's bedroom as a platform. Being a gossip will get you in trouble! Read Proverbs.

God bless you all, Readers.

August 23, 2008 4:34 AM | Report Offensive Comment

Valerie K. :

What was Pastor Warren's first question to Obama? A delicately-worded trap having to do with whether the President of the United States should be required to legislate abortions as illegal?

I think of the Savior's own words in response: "Thou child of Hell, why tempt ye Me?" Yes, it does say in our Constitution that we have an inalienable right to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness, but according to the Bible, not one of us has the right to life. In fact, through Adam and Eve, each of us has the right to death and judgment of our sins. Therefore, to attempt to legislate anyone's Right To Life makes that portion of the Constitution heresy.

Case in point: the wealthy man who drifted off to sleep thinking about tearing down his silos to build bigger silos to hold even more grain. Did the Lord say to him, "you have the Right to Life, so go forth and continue on amassing wealth?" No! He said, "Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee." Do you understand? Not one of us has the right to life.

When Jesus caught the Pharisees about to stone the woman caught in adultery, did he hand out picket signs to the bystanders saying, "Yes! Let's make an example of this woman. Stone her for breaking my father's holy law!" No! He said, "Ye who are without sin, cast the first stone. And for all the rest of you, here's a sign-up sheet. The woman about to walk out of this abortion clinic needs good churchgoing women to volunteer their time watching her other 5 children so she can go out and put food on the table."

Listen here, you right-to-lifers, getting ready to reach into a strange woman's uterus to protect the unborn: Last I checked, violating a woman's private parts is called Rape. Pastor Warren and other evangelicals resemble rapists when they talk about these unseemly things. Meanwhile, a slow-motion mass murder is going on in this country concerning young children who go without proper food, clothing, schooling and guidance as they grow. This is our nation in embryo we're aborting as we strain at the pro-choice gnat to swallow the poverty camel.

I can tell you that in this election you can either vote about what's going on in your wallet or someone else's bedroom. One or the other. Please choose wisely. I'm pro-Choice and I'm choosing the wallet, because I don't want to abort America's youth. Don't condemn yourselves by choosing thy neighbor's bedroom as a platform. Being a gossip will get you in trouble! Read Proverbs.

God bless you all, Readers.

August 23, 2008 4:34 AM | Report Offensive Comment

Valerie K. :

What was Pastor Warren's first question to Obama? A delicately-worded trap having to do with whether the President of the United States should be required to legislate abortions as illegal?

I think of the Savior's own words in response: "Thou child of Hell, why tempt ye Me?" Yes, it does say in our Constitution that we have an inalienable right to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness, but according to the Bible, not one of us has the right to life. In fact, through Adam and Eve, each of us has the right to death and judgment of our sins. Therefore, to attempt to legislate anyone's Right To Life makes that portion of the Constitution heresy.

Case in point: the wealthy man who drifted off to sleep thinking about tearing down his silos to build bigger silos to hold even more grain. Did the Lord say to him, "you have the Right to Life, so go forth and continue on amassing wealth?" No! He said, "Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee." Do you understand? Not one of us has the right to life.

When Jesus caught the Pharisees about to stone the woman caught in adultery, did he hand out picket signs to the bystanders saying, "Yes! Let's make an example of this woman. Stone her for breaking my father's holy law!" No! He said, "Ye who are without sin, cast the first stone. And for all the rest of you, here's a sign-up sheet. The woman about to walk out of this abortion clinic needs good churchgoing women to volunteer their time watching her other 5 children so she can go out and put food on the table."

Listen here, you right-to-lifers, getting ready to reach into a strange woman's uterus to protect the unborn: Last I checked, violating a woman's private parts is called Rape. Pastor Warren and other evangelicals resemble rapists when they talk about these unseemly things. Meanwhile, a slow-motion mass murder is going on in this country concerning young children who go without proper food, clothing, schooling and guidance as they grow. This is our nation in embryo we're aborting as we strain at the pro-choice gnat to swallow the poverty camel.

I can tell you that in this election you can either vote about what's going on in your wallet or someone else's bedroom. One or the other. Please choose wisely. I'm pro-Choice and I'm choosing the wallet, because I don't want to abort America's youth. Don't condemn yourselves by choosing thy neighbor's bedroom as a platform. Being a gossip will get you in trouble! Read Proverbs.

God bless you all, Readers.

August 23, 2008 4:33 AM | Report Offensive Comment

Valerie K. :

What was Pastor Warren's first question to Obama? A delicately-worded trap having to do with whether the President of the United States should be required to legislate abortions as illegal?

I think of the Savior's own words in response: "Thou child of Hell, why tempt ye Me?" Yes, it does say in our Constitution that we have an inalienable right to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness, but according to the Bible, not one of us has the right to life. In fact, through Adam and Eve, each of us has the right to death and judgment of our sins. Therefore, to attempt to legislate anyone's Right To Life makes that portion of the Constitution heresy.

Case in point: the wealthy man who drifted off to sleep thinking about tearing down his silos to build bigger silos to hold even more grain. Did the Lord say to him, "you have the Right to Life, so go forth and continue on amassing wealth?" No! He said, "Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee." Do you understand? Not one of us has the right to life.

When Jesus caught the Pharisees about to stone the woman caught in adultery, did he hand out picket signs to the bystanders saying, "Yes! Let's make an example of this woman. Stone her for breaking my father's holy law!" No! He said, "Ye who are without sin, cast the first stone. And for all the rest of you, here's a sign-up sheet. The woman about to walk out of this abortion clinic needs good churchgoing women to volunteer their time watching her other 5 children so she can go out and put food on the table."

Listen here, you right-to-lifers, getting ready to reach into a strange woman's uterus to protect the unborn: Last I checked, violating a woman's private parts is called Rape. Pastor Warren and other evangelicals resemble rapists when they talk about these unseemly things. Meanwhile, a slow-motion mass murder is going on in this country concerning young children who go without proper food, clothing, schooling and guidance as they grow. This is our nation in embryo we're aborting as we strain at the pro-choice gnat to swallow the poverty camel.

I can tell you that in this election you can either vote about what's going on in your wallet or someone else's bedroom. One or the other. Please choose wisely. I'm pro-Choice and I'm choosing the wallet, because I don't want to abort America's youth. Don't condemn yourselves by choosing thy neighbor's bedroom as a platform. Being a gossip will get you in trouble! Read Proverbs.

God bless you all, Readers.

August 23, 2008 4:23 AM | Report Offensive Comment

Valerie K. :

What was Pastor Warren's first question to Obama? A delicately-worded trap having to do with whether the President of the United States should be required to legislate abortions as illegal?

I think of the Savior's own words in response: "Thou child of Hell, why tempt ye Me?" Yes, it does say in our Constitution that we have an inalienable right to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness, but according to the Bible, not one of us has the right to life. In fact, through Adam and Eve, each of us has the right to death and judgment of our sins. Therefore, to attempt to legislate anyone's Right To Life makes that portion of the Constitution heresy.

Case in point: the wealthy man who drifted off to sleep thinking about tearing down his silos to build bigger silos to hold even more grain. Did the Lord say to him, "you have the Right to Life, so go forth and continue on amassing wealth?" No! He said, "Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee." Do you understand? Not one of us has the right to life.

When Jesus caught the Pharisees about to stone the woman caught in adultery, did he hand out picket signs to the bystanders saying, "Yes! Let's make an example of this woman. Stone her for breaking my father's holy law!" No! He said, "Ye who are without sin, cast the first stone. And for all the rest of you, here's a sign-up sheet. The woman about to walk out of this abortion clinic needs good churchgoing women to volunteer their time watching her other 5 children so she can go out and put food on the table."

Listen here, you right-to-lifers, getting ready to reach into a strange woman's uterus to protect the unborn: Last I checked, violating a woman's private parts is called Rape. Pastor Warren and other evangelicals resemble rapists when they talk about these unseemly things. Meanwhile, a slow-motion mass murder is going on in this country concerning young children who go without proper food, clothing, schooling and guidance as they grow. This is our nation in embryo we're aborting as we strain at the pro-choice gnat to swallow the poverty camel.

I can tell you that in this election you can either vote about what's going on in your wallet or someone else's bedroom. One or the other. Please choose wisely. I'm pro-Choice and I'm choosing the wallet, because I don't want to abort America's youth. Don't condemn yourselves by choosing thy neighbor's bedroom as a platform. Being a gossip will get you in trouble! Read Proverbs.

God bless you all, Readers.

August 23, 2008 4:22 AM | Report Offensive Comment

Patrick ONeill :

While no one should be surprised that a "Philosophy" professor at a "Christian University featuring a Biblically Centered Education" would consider the Saddleback show a good thing, there are many US citizens who are NOT christian and who hope that appearing at such forums and playing who is the most christian doesn't become a routine part of our elections.

August 23, 2008 4:09 AM | Report Offensive Comment

ahmed from bahrain :

Victoria

Thank you for your understanding. I know some of you can be great dinner guests. I lived in US for a few months as an intern in Kaiser Aluminum, Baton Rouge and lived in New Orleans, way back 1981.

I can be a good host too and cook a mean Gulf dish you ain't tasted one either.

You hit the nail about your way of government and people. Why can't America come without guns blazing and bombs to the kilt? How about sending us your teachers, your doctors and your wise men or is that why Jesus was not born in America? Coz God couldn't find a single virgin and 3 wise men?

Lets quit talking religion and tell human stories, since we share that as our common heritage.

Concerned: I love you too. Do I have hope for you? Sure I do, may another 50 lives. OK, 49. Only then you may wish to turn up at my joint for dinner. But would trust my food or would you feel it were laced with poison ivy?

Ah, the unbeliever even after 49 lives. Go back and do the last one.

August 23, 2008 12:48 AM | Report Offensive Comment

Anonymous :

Who is the God of Earth? A Person or a Spirit?
Or, The GOD that made the Atom and the Electro-Magnetic Force that makes All Life, seen and not seen. This is not the HE of Religion and Myth.

What is Freedom of Religion? The USAs Stand on Freedom of Religion, with their Christian Prayers, Icons and Holidays, in Government, is not Freedom of Religion.

The USA needs Freedom From, the Christian Religion in Government, for All Religious and Atheist Citizens.

Why does the USA and other Countries, support accepting Christianity, or some Religion, as part of their Government? Some Countries in the Past, Controlled by a Religion, are now Free of a Government Religion.

Should Humans Start working on Freedom from Religion in Government, instead of Forcing Religion, on All Children of God? Would the Earth be a Better Place, without all the Problems and War, caused by Different Religious God 'Beliefs'?

It is Time, to Start Working, on Gods True Work of Eternal Human Physical Life After Birth, with Space Travel, High Tech Colonization, and Reproduction in a High Tech Womb in the Lab. Instead of Working on Satan's False Work of Pollution, Nuclear Bombs, and War.

We need a High Tech Womb to Finish making Perfect Humans, like God's Peace Work with the Adam and Eve Clones, 'in the beginning'.

When the Perfect Clones reproduced by God, started Reproducing Imperfect Humans by Satan's Heterosexual Body Birth, Satan's Hell Work Broke out on Planet Earth.

Now the Planet is Endangered By Satan's Religious Humans, with Death to our Eco System, and to All Life on Earth. What does the Religious Teachings, of 'Eternal Life After Death' mean?

God's High Tech Perfect Peace Humans, do have Eternal Life 'After' Birth Work, Possible on Planets and in Spaceships.

It is Time to Follow Jesus, the Prince of Peace, and be about the Male and Female Clones Business. They were the 'Father' of Life's Business on Earth. Humans should Stop Following Satan's Work, to the Gates of Hell with our Nuclear Bombs.

August 22, 2008 5:05 PM | Report Offensive Comment

Dolores Lear :

Church and State should be Separate. Who is the God of All the Religions on Earth? Is it a He or a Spirit? Or, the Maker of the Atom and Electro-Magnetic Force that makes Life as we Know it, seen and unseen.