Readers’ Responses to Our Question (89)

Since Barack Obama identifies himself as a Christian, it makes sense that he resigned from his church. I hope he finds time to seriously study the Bible and then looks for others who worship God with what the Bible calls “spirit and truth”.

These are some points he might meditate on:

1. True religion practices love. True worshippers are not divided by race, or culture, and display ‘love among themselves.’

“By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves.””
(John 13:35)

“At this Peter opened his mouth and said: “For a certainty I perceive that God is not partial, but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him.”
(Acts 10:34,35)

Rather than killing one another, true worshippers are willing to die for one another.

“But whoever has this world’s means for supporting life and beholds his brother having need and yet shuts the door of his tender compassions upon him, in what way does the love of God remain in him?”
(1 John 3:16)

2. True religion trusts God’s Word. Instead of teaching tradition and man’s philosophy as doctrines, true religion bases its doctrines on God’s Word, the Bible.

“And so YOU have made the word of God invalid because of YOUR tradition. YOU hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about YOU, when he said, ‘This people honors me with their lips, yet their heart is far removed from me. It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach commands of men as doctrines.’”
(Matthew 15:6-9)

“All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness,”
(2 Timothy 3:16)

3. True religion strengthens families and upholds high moral standards.

“In this way husbands ought to be loving their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself,”
(Ephesians 5:28)

“Nevertheless, also, let each one of YOU individually so love his wife as he does himself; on the other hand, the wife should have deep respect for her husband.”
(Ephesians 5:33)

“Children, be obedient to YOUR parents in union with [the] Lord, for this is righteous: “Honor your father and [your] mother”; which is the first command with a promise: “That it may go well with you and you may endure a long time on the earth.” And YOU, fathers, do not be irritating YOUR children, but go on bringing them up in the discipline and mental-regulating of Jehovah.”
(Ephesians 6:1-4)

4. Those entrusted with positions of authority must have exemplary morals.

“If any man is reaching out for an office of overseer, he is desirous of a fine work. The overseer should therefore be irreprehensible, a husband of one wife, moderate in habits, sound in mind, orderly, hospitable, qualified to teach, not a drunken brawler, not a smiter, but reasonable, not belligerent, not a lover of money, a man presiding over his own household in a fine manner, having children in subjection with all seriousness; (if indeed any man does not know how to preside over his own household, how will he take care of God’s congregation?) not a newly converted man, for fear that he might get puffed up [with pride] and fall into the judgment passed upon the Devil. Moreover, he should also have a fine testimony from people on the outside, in order that he might not fall into reproach and a snare of the Devil.
Ministerial servants should likewise be serious, not double-tongued, not giving themselves to a lot of wine, not greedy of dishonest gain, holding the sacred secret of the faith with a clean conscience.
Also, let these be tested as to fitness first, then let them serve as ministers, as they are free from accusation.”
(1 Timothy 3:1-10)

5. True religion produces good fruit.

“Likewise every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit;”
(Matthew 7:17)

6. True religion honors God's name.

“That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah,
You alone are the Most High over all the earth.”
(Psalms 83:18)

Jesus made God's name, Jehovah, known to others.

“YOU must pray, then, this way:
“‘Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified.”
(Matthew 6:9)

“ “I have made your name manifest to the men you gave me out of the world. They were yours, and you gave them to me, and they have observed your word.”
(John 17:6)

“And I have made your name known to them and will make it known, in order that the love with which you loved me may be in them and I in union with them.””
(John 17:26)

True worshipers make known God’s name.

“For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.” However, how will they call on him in whom they have not put faith? How, in turn, will they put faith in him of whom they have not heard? How, in turn, will they hear without someone to preach?”
(Romans 10:13,14)

7. True religion looks to God’s Kingdom as the solution to all mankind’s problems.
God’s Kingdom will bring true peace and security to the earth.

“Do not put YOUR trust in nobles,
Nor in the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs.
His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground;
In that day his thoughts do perish.
Happy is the one who has the God of Jacob for his help,
Whose hope is in Jehovah his God,
The Maker of heaven and earth,
Of the sea, and of all that is in them,
The One keeping trueness to time indefinite,”
(Psalm 146:3-5)

True worshipers preach about God's Kingdom. Jesus did so. He always talked about the Kingdom.

“Shortly afterwards he went journeying from city to city and from village to village, preaching and declaring the good news of the kingdom of God. And the twelve were with him,”
(Luke 8:1)

He commanded his disciples to preach this same message in all the earth.

“And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.”
(Matthew 24:14)

“Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU. And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.””
(Matthew 28: 19, 20)

8. True religion is no part of this wicked world.

“They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.”
(John 17:16)

They do not get involved in the world's political affairs and social controversies. They avoid the harmful conduct, practices, and attitudes that are common in the world.

“The form of worship that is clean and undefiled from the standpoint of our God and Father is this: to look after orphans and widows in their tribulation, and to keep oneself without spot from the world.”
(James 1:27)

“Adulteresses, do YOU not know that the friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friend of the world is constituting himself an enemy of God.”
(James 4:4)

IN REPLY TO (IRT)
MR MARK :
ZZIM SEZ:
IRT:
"The guy promoted a solution to a problem. To do that he quoted the information favorable to his position. That's not a lie, that's called rallying public support for a proposed public policy."

ANS:
Relying on the Clinton Administration CIA, Gen. Powell and Cheney spent two weeks at the CIA before addressing the UN to make sure the data was correct. Powel later said his address to the UN was the greatest embarrassment in his whole life. If you think he intentionally lied, think again.

IRA:
"Care to explain the infamous 16 words in bush's SOTUA? You know, the LIE about SH attempting to buy yellow cake from Niger, a LIE that was shot down before the SOTUA as being unreliable intel by the CIA?"

ANS:
THE SENATE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE REPORT FINDS THAT WILSON'S "DESCRIPTION OF HIS FINDINGS DIFFERED FROM THE DO INTELLIGENCE REPORT AND HIS ACCOUNT OF INFORMATION PROVIDED TO HIM BY THE CIA DIFFERED FROM THE CIA OFFICIALS' ACCOUNTS IN SOME RESPECTS": So who is the real liar?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senate_Reports_of_Pre-war_Intelligence_on_Iraq_pertaining_to_Joseph_C._Wilson%27s_Niger_Trip#The_U.S._Senate_Select_Committee_on_Intelligence_Reports_relating_to_Wilson.27s_Niger_trip

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Report_on_the_U.S._Intelligence_Community%27s_Prewar_Intelligence_Assessments_on_Iraq#Niger_and_the_Iraqi_nuclear_program

THE ASSESSMENT ADDED THAT 'SOME OFFICIALS MAY HAVE CONSPIRED FOR INDIVIDUAL GAIN TO ARRANGE A URANIUM SALE,' but considered President Tandja's government highly unlikely to risk relations with the U.S. and other key aid donors.

"In a written response to a question from Committee staff on this matter, the Department of State said the assessment was distributed through the routine distribution process in which intelligence documents are delivered to the White House situation room, but State did not provide the assessment directly to the Vice President in a special delivery." (42)[1][2]

"First, the former ambassador described his findings to Committee staff as more directly related to Iraq and, specifically, as refuting both the possibility that Niger could have sold uranium to Iraq and that Iraq approached Niger to purchase uranium.

"The intelligence report described how the structure of Niger's uranium mines would make it difficult, if not impossible, for Niger to sell uranium to [rogue] nations.

"It noted that Nigerian officials denied knowledge of any deals to sell uranium to any rogue states, BUT DID NOT REFUTE THE POSSIBILITY THAT IRAQ HAD APPROACHED NIGER TO PURCHASE URANIUM [IN THE PAST]."

Senate Report on Pre-war Intelligence on Iraq
Redirected from Report on the U.S. Intelligence Community's Prewar Intelligence Assessments on Iraq)

“THE REPORT CONCLUDES THAT PRIOR TO OCTOBER, 2002, IT WAS REASONABLE FOR THE INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY TO ASSESS IRAQ MAY HAVE BEEN ATTEMPTING TO OBTAIN URANIUM FROM AFRICA.”

The blind see nothing; the predisposed see only what they want to see and sometimes see things that don’t exists. It’s an affliction that has infected the iconoclast and troglodytes, who live in the alternate world, all their lives.

You’ve mentioned Joe Wilson, now do you have the courage read about him and his book.

http://www.slate.com/id/2100121/

“Wilson has had to alter his story so many times—he first denied that the CIA had anything to do with selecting him for the Niger mission and later claimed that he had exposed a forgery that wasn't disclosed until after he returned—that the mind reels at having to reread his conceited book.

Peace : "With the convincing victory of Obama the dawn of a new era has begun in U S and for that America and rest of the world should be grateful and hopefully will be better off"

The only thing Obama will win is "first place" in lying.

McCain will win the election, thank God!

Fred :

Since everything you said is incorrect and so vague, generalized and typical of someone who does not want to debate his/her true belief there is no need to debate you. I guess he said your hair was purple also. TWISTED!!!!! You know he did not do that however, I can't blame you for you inability to comprehend a conversation. The folks you follow typically think for you. Your general statements are insulting and a shame! Your attempt to redefine what racism has failed, so call you radio station and tell them I said that.

CCNL, I shall go to all corners of the world and proclaim how important it is to get a fast scrolling mouse.

Anon, Anon, Anon Wherever You Are,

As a good student, you have read the reiterations of the "fems" of religion. Therefore the seeds have been planted in rich soil. Go therefore and preach the truth to all nations, reiterating as you go amongst the lost, bred, born and brainwashed souls of Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism as Reality makes its triumphant return all because of you!!!!

The only person CCNL has brainwashed with his slogans is himself. But he likes to make believe he has made great headway with everyone he has driven up the wall with his cut-an'-paste list for the past nineteen months.

Mr. Mark, Mr. Mark, Mr. Mark,

I doubt that all the information available to President Bush was known by the advisors you listed. Simply put Iraq is another element of the war on terror and aggression which we have been fighting since 1776. And your yucky, play boy Bill Clinton has a lot to answer for in not carrying out his duties as commander and chief.

And check the news everyday for the latest on the Sunni-Shiite civil war which continues almost on a global scale thanks to Iran and the "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia and their boy, OBL.

Name one actual lie concerning Iraq. WMD no sorry the fact that we haven't found as much as we expected to find does not constitute a lie. Not given that both John Kerry and Bill Clinton still thought he had such weapons in the late 90's

End of major combat operations? NO sorry there have been in military parlance no Major combat operations since that statement was made. Major combat operations being divisional or larger in size. The largest operation since then was Fallujah which was at best a reinforce battalion about an 1/8 of a division maybe less. Even if there had since been major combat operations you still could accuse him of lying unless you could prove he was omniscient. Which I doubt seriously you really want to argue.

Athena writes:

"When it comes to Iraq, there were certainly some fabrications on the part of the Administration..."

Wow.

It must be little comfort to the families of the fallen to know that the cold, dead bodies of their loved ones are so due to "some fabrications on the part of the administration." How uplifting, how patriotic it must make them feel to know that their sons and daughters died for "some fabrications."

I wonder - how many times would bush have needed to knowingly lie for the phrase, "Bush lied, people died" to be considered operative by the bush apologists? A hundred times? A thousand times?

Isn't a SINGLE LIE enough if that lie is responsible for the death of as few as TWO people?

Sometimes, it really is a simple as it seems.

Bush lied, people - tens of thousands of them - died.

Case closed.

ZZim sez:

"The guy promoted a solution to a problem. To do that he quoted the information favorable to his position. That's not a lie, that's called rallying public support for a proposed public policy."

Care to explain the infamous 16 words in bush's SOTUA? You know, the LIE about SH attempting to buy yellow cake from Niger, a LIE that was shot down before the SOTUA as being unreliable intel by the CIA? A LIE that the CIA had stricken out of earlier bush speeches? A LIE that Cheney wanted to have confirmed as a truth, asking the CIA to find out, which led the CIA to send Joe Wilson to Niger, who reported back that it was a lie, which report Cheney and bush read and elected to ignore as it confirmed the lie of the lie they wished to tell the public?

That's called lying, my friend.

You bush apologists are sick people.

I was actually referring to CCNL's love affair with his cut and paste keys, and his response when called on it.

When it comes to Iraq, there were certainly some fabrications on the part of the Administration, and that we should never have gone in there. I also agree with the poster that said that we didn't recognize the Sunni-Shia blood feud - or at least didn't think that it would matter too much. But the truth is much more complicated than the phrase "Bush lied, people died" would lead one to believe.

CCNL writes:
"Unfortunately Bush et al failed to recognize the 800 year old blood feud between the Sunnis and Shiites and we ended up in the middle of a civil war."

Then they were criminally negligent. It's not like that info wasn't out there. *I* knew it - and all I do is read. How is it that they didn't stumble across this information? It was reported more than once by WaPo during the run-up to the war. OK, not necessarily on the front page, but in the A section - not too hard to find if you have the slightest bit of intellectual curiosity - or, say, a *job* to do, like leading the country...doh!

You know, Athena, I have thought the very same thing for years. Every day somebody in the media says "Bsuh Lied, People Died" and every time I look at the evidence, it's never a lie. The guy promoted a solution to a problem. To do that he quoted the information favorable to his position. That's not a lie, that's called rallying public support for a proposed public policy.

If anything, I think Bush has been very weak on this score in that the administration should be spending a lot more effort to promote the war even now. Like you said, too many people have swallowed the big lie that "Bush lied, people died".

CCNL babbles: "As you know, slogans are repeated again and again until the electorate is converted to Reality and Truth."

Compare that with...

“Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it” - Adolph Hitler.

And now I invoke Godwin's Law on myself.

Concerned The Christian Now Liberated asks:

"But did Bush lie?"

According to the Senate report issued last week (a report delayed for years by the Rs on the committee), YES, bush did lie. So did Cheney. So did Powell. So did Rice.

Confirmed by Scott McClellan.

Confirmed by Joe Wilson.

Confirmed by Scott Ritter.

Confirmed by Richard Clarke.

Confirmed by Lt. Gen. Ricardo S. Sanchez.

Confirmed by Vincent Bugliosi.

Confirmed by just about everybody who has left the administration and by investigative reporters around the world like Christopher Scheer, James Risen and Thomas Ricks.

Of course, if you wish to suspend disbelief and take the bush spin as truth, then, you're welcome to it. Why you would wish to carry water for such ghouls when the evidence is so clear is beyond the comprehension of most thinking people.

Mr. Mark, Mr. Mark, Mr. Mark,

But did Bush lie? It was obvious Saddam had active programs for WMD before and during the Gulf War. And he continued to brag about them even after most, as we know now, were destroyed. The guy was a low-life tyrant just ask the Shiites and Kuwaitis and he needed to be eliminated.

Unfortunately Bush et al failed to recognize the 800 year old blood feud between the Sunnis and Shiites and we ended up in the middle of a civil war. Many leading Democrats and Republicans have recommended a partioning of Iraq with the Kurds in the North, the Sunnis in Baghdad and Center and the Shiites in the South. And this probably will be the final solution because of the continued vindictiveness demonstrated by the religious leaders of in the region especially the Shiite ayatollahs in the nuclear and terrorist state of Iran and the Sunni OBL-supporting "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia. The separation should have been enforced from Day 1.

Hmmm? No Republicans have stepped forward to tell us why they're still Rs after it has become clear that gw bush knowingly lied us into a war in Iraq. Why are they still Republicans? Why do they not resign their Party affiliation? Why were they ever Rs to begin with?

C'mon Fred, GaryD, Hammerhead, Jason Dollar et al. You have plenty of bad things to say about Obama and his church, but nothing about bush's lies. How many people have died due to Obama leaving his church? How many have died for bush's lies? Certainly, if you're going to take Obama to task, you MUST take bush to task at an astronomical rate if you want to be fair about it.

So, let me ask you again: knowing that bush KNOWINGLY lied us into a war that has cost 4,000+ American lives, tens of thousands of Iraq lives and billions of dollars in treasure, why have you not resigned from (or changed your affiliation away from) the Republican Party?

I'm all ears.

For Mr. Obama and Mr. McCain only:

As you know, slogans are repeated again and again until the electorate is converted to Reality and Truth.

Hopefully, you will adopt the following slogan for your presidential and religious campaigns:

"Until the koran is deflawed, the mosques are "febrezed" and the Sunnis and Shiites including their imams, clerics and ayatollahs are pacified, no one is safe!!!!"

Please note that this slogan has been submitted for copyright protection so don't use it without our permission :))

With the convincing victory of Obama the dawn of a new era has begun in U S and for that America and rest of the world should be grateful and hopefully will be better off

With Obama's convincing victory the dawn of a new era has begun in the U S and for that, America and rest of the world should be grateful and hopefully will be better off

With Obama's convincing victory the dawn of a new era has begun in the U S and for that, America and rest of the world should be grateful and hopefully will be better off

Mr. Mark, Mr. Mark, Mr. Mark,

Jesus lived and was crucified. Such is the belief of many Democrats and Republicans.

An as an update concerning the actions of current and previous :

An update (or how Democratic and Republican administrations are spending or have spent USA taxpayers’ money to eliminate global terror and aggression)

The terror and aggression via a Partial and Recent Body Count

1) Assassination of Benazir Bhutto

2) 9/11, 3000 mostly US citizens, 1000’s injured

3) The 24/7 Sunni-Shiite centuries-old blood feud currently being carried out in Iraq, 4056 US troops and 83,521 – 91,094 Iraqi civilians http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

4) Kenya- In Nairobi, about 212 people were killed and an estimated 4000 injured; in Dar es Salaam, the attack killed at least 11 and wounded 85.[2]

5) Bali-in 2002-killing 202 people, 164 of whom were foreign nationals, and 38 Indonesian citizens. A further 209 people were injured.

6) Bali in 2005- Twenty people were killed, and 129 people were injured by three bombers who killed themselves in the attacks.

7) Spain in 2004- killing 191 people and wounding 2,050.

8) UK in 2005- The bombings killed 52 commuters and the four radical Islamic suicide bombers, injured 700.

Other elements of our War on Terror:

1. Saddam, his sons and major henchmen have been deleted. Saddam's bravado about WMD was one of his major mistakes.

2. Iran is being been contained. (beside containing the Sunni-Shiite civil war in Baghdad, that is the main reason we are in Iraq. And yes, essential oil continues to flow from the region.)

3. Libya has become almost civil. Apparently this new reality from an Islamic country has upset OBL and his “crazies” as they recently threatened Libya. OBL sure is a disgrace to the world especially the Moslem world!!!

4. North Korea is still uncivil but is contained. With the opening up of rail traffic between North and South Korea after 50 years and with the assistance of the US Navy in retrieving NK ships and personnel, a fresh sense of civility is afoot. One of the most eminent US cultural institutions, the New York Philharmonic Orchestra, has performed a landmark concert in North Korea.

The concert included music by Western composers and a Korean folk song, and was broadcast live on local television.

Unfortunately, North Korea’s apparent move toward peace did not last long as they fired test missiles recently and threatened South Korea with military action recently.

5. Northern Ireland is finally at peace.

6. The Jews and Palestinians are being separated by walls. Hopefully the walls will follow the 1948 UN accords and the Annapolis Peace Conference is at least somewhat successful.

7. Bin Laden has been cornered under a rock in Western Pakistan since 9/11.

8. Fanatical Islam has basically been contained to the Middle East but a wall between India and Pakistan would be a plus for world peace. Ditto for a wall between Afghahistan and Pakistan.

9.Timothy McVeigh was executed. Terry Nichols will follow soon.

10. Eric Rudolph is spending three life terms in prison with no parole.

11. Jim Jones, David Koresh, Kaczynski, the "nuns" from Rwanda, and the KKK were all dealt with and either eliminated themselves or are being punished.

12. Islamic Sudan, Darfur and Somalia are still terror hot spots.

13. The terror and torture of Muslims in Bosnia, Kosovo and Kuwait were ended by the proper application of the military forces of the USA and her freedom-loving friends.

14. And of course the bloody terror brought about the Japanese, Nazis and Communists was with great difficulty eliminated by the good guys.

I'm a bit amused at all the "Obama shoulda quit/never joined that church" posts on this thread.

I'm going to go ahead and assume that most of the people taking Obama to task on this issue are Republicans. So let me ask all my Republican friends out there:

now that you KNOW that bush knowingly lied us into war, why haven't you resigned from the Republican Party?

I await your replies. ;)

GAPRDESC,

What specific reason do I give for my statements?

That he should never have joined the church?
1. God's name is used in vain from the pulpit.
2. Racism is preached from the pulpit.
3. Politics are preached from the pulpit.
4. Hate is preached from the pulpit.

That he is just a typical politician?
1. He says things just to get elected -- according to his own (former) pastor.
2. He speaks out of both sides of his mouth -- telling folks in San Francisco one thing, while telling folks in middle America another.
3. He says he won't accept money from lobbyists but gladly accepts money from those affiliated with lobbyists.
4. He says he's against NAFTA, then has his people tell Canada not to worry, that he really doesn't mean what he's saying.

How's that?

Obama's clinging to his political life as he jettisons the church he slumbered thru for twenty years identifies him clearly as a typical politician

In my humble opinion, he said he resigned, but I bet he actually lied. He does this a lot, he and his wife are evil in many ways, trying to turn people away from the church that said those bad things about America. We do have lots of problems, but I don't think ranting and raving is anyway to solve. About health care, I don't need to worry, am a veteran of WW2, female marine & all the care is taken by VA. If some of the people who gamble in Vegas, drink whiskey, beer and other alcoholic beverages and smoke would take this money and put on health care, would solve the problem, but they won't. Ear marks are also a HUGE problem, but one last comment, ALL POLITICIANS ARE LIARS, LOOKING FOR POWER AND MONEY and from the looks of the crooks in Washington, it is pitiful that so many tax dollars are lining pockets of POLITICIANS. THANKS, goldie

Anon/aka One Who Knows - well, at least one person knew what and who you were referring to.
Not a total loss after all....

Sorry for the harsh words - some of us should hold ourselves in check!

Fred,

What specific reason do you give for you statements?

Should Obama have quit his church?

He should never have JOINED that church! But since he did, it was rather political of him to quit now after being a member for 20 years, especially after referring to Rev. Wright as his "uncle" and saying he could no more disown Rev. Wright than he could the black community.

Change he says? Sounds like a typical politician to me.

Jason Dollar,

2. Early Christian Writings, earlychristianwritings.com/
-- a list of early Christian documents to include the year of publication
30-60 CE Passion Narrative
40-80 Lost Sayings Gospel Q
50-60 1 Thessalonians
50-60 Philippians
50-60 Galatians
50-60 1 Corinthians
50-60 2 Corinthians
50-60 Romans
50-60 Philemon
50-80 Colossians
50-90 Signs Gospel
50-95 Book of Hebrews
50-120 Didache
50-140 Gospel of Thomas
50-140 Oxyrhynchus 1224 Gospel
50-200 Sophia of Jesus Christ
65-80 Gospel of Mark
70-100 Epistle of James
70-120 Egerton Gospel
70-160 Gospel of Peter
70-160 Secret Mark
70-200 Fayyum Fragment
70-200 Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs
73-200 Mara Bar Serapion
80-100 2 Thessalonians
80-100 Ephesians
80-100 Gospel of Matthew
80-110 1 Peter
80-120 Epistle of Barnabas
80-130 Gospel of Luke
80-130 Acts of the Apostles
80-140 1 Clement
80-150 Gospel of the Egyptians
80-150 Gospel of the Hebrews
80-250 Christian Sibyllines
90-95 Apocalypse of John
90-120 Gospel of John
90-120 1 John
90-120 2 John
90-120 3 John
90-120 Epistle of Jude
93 Flavius Josephus
100-150 1 Timothy
100-150 2 Timothy
100-150 Titus
100-150 Apocalypse of Peter
100-150 Secret Book of James
100-150 Preaching of Peter
100-160 Gospel of the Ebionites
100-160 Gospel of the Nazoreans
100-160 Shepherd of Hermas
100-160 2 Peter

It depends on whose timing you believe. Both the Acts of the Apostles and John's Gospel from the above listing were written during the same time period. And both were written well after the crucifixion and both are highly embellished accounts.

Jason,
I misunderstood what you met by Apostolic Faith. Thank you for clearing that up. Why is it that you believe the Black church does not believe in the teachings of the Bible and strays away from the Bible teaching? Can you give a specific example? There are many different denominations that from what I know, get hung up on one or two words in the Bible then split into a separate sect, like saying the name of Jesus vs. saying the Father the Son and the Holy Ghost. I’m not a scholar in religion however, I’ve been raised up in a church long enough to know in the Black Church it is so strict and one must follow letter of the Bible that at times as a human is hard to live by. I also know some take a verse that says covering of the head to mean actually covering the head where the other takes it to mean something else. So over time I’ve learned that whoever is interpreting the scriptures may at times over the decade get it wrong and have to go back and revisit the scriptures again. Such as "Is it the husband that covers the wife and is to love her like God loves the church?."
You write that the truth is exclusive by nature. Truth meaning, Fact, reality certainty, accuracy genuineness, precision, exactness, legitimacy is by it’s very nature exclusive meaning elite, select, restricted , limited private, fashionable, special, not inclusive meaning wide-ranging – all-encompassing, complete, broad, general? Jesus Christ teachings say he is the way the truth and the light and you feel from this it is the exact way to God the father? Correct?
You go on to write a stereotype of the Black Church and more specifically this particular wing of the church which you characterize as “liberal”, correct? BTW, when I hear liberal I equate this to the “N word” used to denigrate a person or a person’s belief by the right wing who do think of themselves as the superior ones, elite ones or special ones; however, I will try to think that you are saying liberal in a different context for the purposes of understanding what you write. So here, you are not denigrating a person or Church, you feel that “liberal” best describes the Black Church right? Liberal meaning, open-minded, broadminded, moderate, noninterventionist, freethinking, tolerant, not narrow-minded? You also believe these Black Churches belong to protestant Christianity who somehow read the Bible but denied the truth therein? You describe this type of reading as face-reading (matter-of-fact reading) meaning unemotional, straightforward , factual, calm, down-to-earth, blunt? Then you go on to condemned the Church, it’s teachers and people in it because of the stereotype or because you have been in these churches or have been raised in them, so you feel you know what is taught in them?
Are you trying to convey here that the Christian church does not believe that the way to God is through Jesus Christ? Can you give specifics on your analogy of 4 pm in N.Y. and all other claiming it is 6 AM?
When the racists forced Presidential Candidate Obama to resign from the Church of God it was the last straw for many of us. They have crossed a line that should never have been crossed and media continuing to denigrate their religion, Church, it’s pastors, it’s people and their Bible has stooped to a new low just when we thought the racists couldn’t get any lower than they already are after bombing the church with 4 little girls in it. It is this dangerous rhetoric that the non-racist tends to dabble in with the racist that leads to such deplorable acts. When the racists and non-racist alike took the scolding given to the racist out of context by Rev. Wright and others it was a sign this rhetoric has reach dangerous levels!!!! It has nothing to do with Jesus but everything to do with twisting what actually is being said to be something it is not such as “inflammatory remarks”. Again what is inflammatory is that which the messenger described and yet one continues to twist the truth to suit their own political gains.
In summary, when a whole lot of people used the Bible to justify slavery you somehow think that the sheer numbers got it right and that the many who followed blindly out of fear themselves also got it right? You would say the sheer numbers who followed Hitler got it right? No! it is you that is speaking and you must stand behind what you believe because throwing in sheer numbers of people in the past who on many occasions followed the leader blindly is not proving anything to me. They almost always got it wrong and when the few dare to go against the majority like the saying the “world is round “ instead of the “world is flat” they were scorned for it like Rev. Wright putting all racists in their place.
Finally, you must be talking to other readers that you too, like Rev Wright want to get told or put in their place. The Black Church reads and studies the scriptures. I can’t speak for this specific division however, if you are trying to convey that the Black Church is the “N word “ of religion than you are wrong. Now, because I am taught that Jesus is the way the truth and the light, I am not going to force my beliefs on the Atheist or others who do not know the word nor have they been taught the word. It is those who know the way and have been taught that need to worry about being given over to a reprobate mind.
This rhetoric that the right wing spews over the airwaves has reached dangerous levels. The twisting of the truth while placing Dark faces up to spew the lie has also reached past dangerous level. It is as bad as it was when people felt comfortable bombing the Black Church with for little girls in it. I advise the non-racist to see the racists for what they are and to stop taking up for the racists. They feel their sheer numbers which includes the fooled non-racists, that they are justified and can interfere and undermine Democracy by launching Operation Chaos and you followed blindly as if this person is an agent of God himself. Also watch out for the “FEAR TACTIC” they will use to control you and your thinking processes. Always remember your friends of the other race they target. The ones you go bowling with, eat dinner with, play with, laugh with and work with. These ungodly people will seek to make the race monolithic and without personality so that you fear the image they create instead of see the targeted races as a real human being.
Anyway, I may or may not understand the message you are trying to convey and we may need to get to a place where we agree to disagree. At the very least, we had a honest discussion about what we believe and that has to be worth something .
Now, answer my questions how is it that the Preacher who describes a situation is called a racist and the actual racist escapes ridicule in America today?

The US empire rests on griftly foundation: the massacre of millions of indigenos people,the stealing of their lands,and following this,the kidnapping and enslavement of millions of black people from Africa to work on that land.Thousands died on the seas while they were being shipped like caged cattle between continents

[Howard Zinn 2001,A peoples History Of United
STATES]

Does Obama has guts to bring change? or will he be another corporate agent?

BTW,

Robert Carter the III freed over 500 slaves in the late 1700. Read about John Mercer Langston who rose to be a congressman. Even my ancestors rose to be great at a time when slavery was happening. Today just like then it is those who are less than 10% of the population who own radio stations and TV that would continue to ridicule Blacks who rise in position in society and inflicted financial hardship on those who they dislike because of their color. My point is despite the fact that many want to interpret what Rev. Wright preached as "inflammatory remarks" it is not true, and it is so far from the truth that it is worst than a lie. The only one who should be mad is the racists himself or herself who pontificates days of old separation of the races.
The racist say pull yourself up by your boot straps knowing that when we tried they often burned their towns down and took their wealth while murdering the people. Today this racists own the boots and the straps and would withhold them from you with the “Credit Score” while saying pull yourself up, They say you should have personal responsibility, which I believe, knowing that when we are stopped in the car everyday it is no longer my personal responsibility but the one who is trying to maintain control over me. They say it is the choices we make knowing that we had no chose if we wanted to get to work we would either pay the 28% interest or pay the same for a rental car. They say you should respect authority while the one in authority is usurping a different kind of authority one that is reminiscent of days of old. There is a difference from respect and the type of respect Blacks were made to do when a White was present.
The reason the Black Church has to continue to teach history is so that we never repeat history and we stamp out what is left. You see the issue here is not just the physical burden placed on a race of people but it is the psychological warfare that has been passed down from generation to generation that is the problem today.

Remember, it was White people who risk life and limb to help their Black brother to freedom, teach them to read and were willing to die for their darker brother. All my life some of my best friends have been and are white. I could never discriminate against white people.
Racist no matter what the color, I will never condone! However, I will never be silent on the racists disgusting actions charging usury fees, 28 % interest on a car, high interest rates for homes, a scoring system that would keep a race or class of people in a financial shambles by paying all sorts of fees because the score that never changes remains low from the day you estbalish credit and no institution will take a look at this practice over charging a group of people and perfecting the system by creating databases with all one's information, tracking their color and deducting loansharking beharvior over the last 40 years. Conducting redlining, packing people of color in jails and making laws such as three strikes and you are out which should translate into “if one is corrupt, then one can accuse you of three things and you automatically are part of the industrial prison complex where the rest of your Black men are. These corrupt people set laws for one group of people and laws for the other. These corrupt people enforce laws and policies on one set of folks while relaxing the policies for others. One gets 50 years and the other gets probation and we are not even talking murder in these cases. Just in case you try to twist what I am saying, Let me make it clear, if you do the crime you should do the time. If you do the time because of something you did not do, this is what I am talking about. We need to recheck the impact the “three strikes law” has had on the working middle and working poor and people of color. The non-racist continues to defend the racist and this is a problem.

Remember, it was White people who risk life and limb to help their Black brother to freedom, teach them to read and were willing to die for their darker brother. All my life some of my best friends have been and are white. I could never discriminate against white people.
Racist no matter what the color, I will never condone! However, I will never be silent on the racists disgusting actions charging usury fees, 28 % interest on a car, high interest rates for homes, a scoring system that would keep a race or class of people in a financial shambles by paying all sorts of fees because the score that never changes remains low from the day you estbalish credit and no institution will take a look at this practice over charging a group of people and perfecting the system by creating databases with all one's information, tracking their color and deducting loansharking beharvior over the last 40 years. Conducting redlining, packing people of color in jails and making laws such as three strikes and you are out which should translate into “if one is corrupt, then one can accuse you of three things and you automatically are part of the industrial prison complex where the rest of your Black men are. These corrupt people set laws for one group of people and laws for the other. These corrupt people enforce laws and policies on one set of folks while relaxing the policies for others. One gets 50 years and the other gets probation and we are not even talking murder in these cases. Just in case you try to twist what I am saying, Let me make it clear, if you do the crime you should do the time. If you do the time because of something you did not do, this is what I am talking about. We need to recheck the impact the “three strikes law” has had on the working middle and working poor and people of color. The non-racist continues to defend the racist and this is a problem.

I could never discriminate against Whites nor could I generalize the White race as all being racists However, we all make the mistake when speaking to say “White” when we mean “White racist”. This is unfortunate and a slip of the tongue and for that I do apologize for this. If this is why the non-racist is offended, then I understand their anger. This is not what we mean when we say “White” in derogatory ways. We are solely discussing the “White Racist” only. Now, realize that the Right wing and covert Democrats benefit from you lumping yourself in with the “White racist” and then become offended by anything said after that toward the White Racist. This is why I do not blame the listeners of the Fox News Radio and TV as well as ABC/CBS Radio stations. The sheep do not recognize the wolf in sheep clothing, so they side with the Racist defending the racist actions now and in the past.

GaryD and others, if you are a non-racist then in no way should you have been offended by anything I have written or anything Rev. Wright said or the Father said in the Black Church. Why you continue to take up for the racist is beyond me.

If you are a racist than you should be offended and upset that a Black would dare challenge your disgusting behavior through TV and get you told about your behavior. God will not bless anything you do if you are the racist described in the Sermon. Again, if you mess with a child of God you will not prosper.

GaryD,
Answer to response 1:
I wrote that my father and his father were of the Apostolic Faith, I did not say I was of the Apostolic Faith nor did I say I was raised Apostolic. The assumption you made is incorrect. I did allude to the fact that I do believe that Jesus is the son of God and is the Savior. What you will never see me do is knock someone else’s belief system. I’m trying to get to heaven and I suppose others are too through their own religions. Once man gets into trying to condemn other religions and say who is right and who is wrong then you see the sick, warped thinking processes as you see in the 9/11 attacks , Holocaust , the fate the Black race suffered and other travesties that I did not mention done in the name of religion or in the name of defending one’s nation. . These sheep who follow the few are brainwashed into to believe half truths and twisted lies to further their belief systems.

Jason Dollar wrote "1. Obama did not resign from a church, but rather a mostly secular organization which called itself a church. There is only one true and holy church represented by those groups that identify totally with Jesus Christ the Son of God, having their sins washed away by his sacrifice. Any group that does not hold to the cardinal doctrines of the apostolic faith (Obama's does not) may identify itself with the word "church" but since it does not meet the definition of the word, it is a flase identification. The Bible is clear that many such false teachers and organizations exist and will continue to exist.

2. Obama did what he had to do for political expediency. His attendance throughout the years of Wright's "church", as well as his personal knowledge of the man, reveals that Obama was more interested in what voters think rather than what he himself thinks. He is a politician playing (preying) on the minds of the weak."
......................

HOW RIGHT YOU ARE!

what do you know : "ANON/AKA ONE WHO KNOWS - idiotic response. Makes no more sense than your original post."

................

Not to me, oh well......I guess you shouldn't concern yourself with my post if it is that much of a difficulty to understand.

Thanks for the compliment though.

Concerned - Crossan is certainly a forminable voive for the position you are advocating about early church embellishments. But this theory is highly implausable for several reasons, not least of which is that John is not the only NT passage that teaches the concept of exclusivity. Acts 4:12 teaches the same notion and it is a much earlier work by nearly all accounts.

Obviously it would not be practical for me to list out all the objections to your comments, so here are a couple of articles for interested readers. The first is basic

http://www.probe.org/theology-and-philosophy/theology---bible/the-historical-reliability-of-the-gospels.html

The second a bit more difficult.

http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=4000

ANON/AKA ONE WHO KNOWS - idiotic response.
Makes no more sense than your original post.

Hmmm, "I am the Truth" i.e. John 14:6. This passage according to many NT exegetes, was not said by the historical Jesus but was wishful thinking and an embellishment by John to make Jesus more like the ancient and local gods of first century Palestine and to increase the number of converts (and the collection plate take). And note that what should be a very important passage only appears once in the NT. 210-. Place of Life: (1) Dial. Sav. 27-30, (2) John 14:2-12; http://www.faithfutures.org/Jesus/Crossan2.rtf

what do you know : "ONE WHO KNOWS - what and who are you referring to? And since your English is slightly impaired, I'm wondering if, nationally speaking, you might be of a foreign derivative. Imagine an American trying to speak Chinese, for example. Good luck with that!

You should, in all fairness, clarify your posts so that others might analyze and comment - "

///////////////

If it spoke to you then it was for you. The one it is for knows that it is for him......no clarification is needed.

Dear Gap - Sorry my comments came across offensively towards you. My desire is to remind readers that truth, by its very nature, is exclusive. Jesus Christ claims to be the exclusive way to God the Father (John 14:6) and thus all other ways are excluded. Rev. Wright and the United Churches of Christ generally, are a liberal wing of protestant Christianity who have historically denied the face-reading (matter-of-fact reading) of the Bible, and thus open the door for other ways to God.

Biblically, this makes them false churches leading people on paths of destruction.

Again, truth, by its very nature, is narrow. If the Bible is actually true, then everything antithetical to it is actually false.

If it is 4 PM in New York City, then all who claim that it is 6 AM are wrong. And we should not feel guilty about declaring them wrong, if indeed they are. Truth is valuable.

I respect Obama as a fellow human being, and if he wins the presidency, I will follow him as far as my conscience will allow, but I cannot respect him as a fellow believer in Jesus Christ since we believe totally different things about Christ.

You also implied that I am an arrogant person believing myself to be right and all others wrong. To this I would respond 1) that I do not think I exclusively am right. The entire church that stands on biblical truth holds to the only correct worldview and this included many millions of people through the centuries. So it is not just me as an individual who is right, but millions of us are.

2) None of us who hold to this correct worldview came up with it ourselves - if we did, then we would certainly be arrogant to claim that we alone are right. But this worldview was given to us and the world by Jesus Christ, who proved himself to be God by literally rising from the dead and ascending into heaven. Quite the opposite of what you said, true arrogance is to reject this Savior who has made it clear what he expects and demands of us.

Hope this helps clarify where I am coming from even if you continue to stand in disagreement. To be sure, I am not a miserable person.

PS - By using the term "Apostolic" I realize the ambiguity. By that term I mean the church founded by Peter, James, John, and Paul and their co-workers, as detailed in the Gospels and the book of Acts. I do not mean modern apostolic denominations, nor do I mean the Roman Catholic Church.

So, GAPRDDESC, you were raised in the Apostolic faith and yet believe,lying from the pulpit to be perfectly acceptable? To accuse another race of responsibility for doing something they not only didn't do but at the time it began to occur they couldn't possibly have done isn't racism?

Jason,
My father and his father and family are all of the Apostolic faith, so unfortunately I cannot debate you on your religion. I guess when that day comes we will all know who was right and who was wrong. Until then I will continue to live the life that Jesus the son of God says I should live.
Now, in your response you became like the Pharisees judging your brother and what he believes as well as thinking more highly of yourself than you ought. What a waste of time! You must be a miserable person to sit around thinking you got it right and everone around you got it wrong when it came to the Savior! The religion you associate yourself with does not have a monopoly on religion to a point where you can denigrate any other Church (people who believe not the building) or Faith that are full of people seeking what you claim you seek.
While the Bible is clear that the person that is interpreting the Bible below clearly has been given over to a reprobate mind. Oops, now I’ve become like the Pharisees. Please forgive me for thinking more highly of myself than I ought by calling you names and disrespecting you and your beliefs.
Answer my questions, How is it that the messenger describing racist behavior has been translated to be the “RACIST”? How is it that when talking about the disgraceful actions of ignorant people is defined to be “Inflammatory Remarks”? Preachers of the Bible where never defined by the words they preached to the people. Why are these two preachers fair game in this warped and twisted way of thinking? Repeating the same lie over and over again through out the air waves does not make what is being said true!

1. Obama did not resign from a church, but rather a mostly secular organization which called itself a church. There is only one true and holy church represented by those groups that identify totally with Jesus Christ the Son of God, having their sins washed away by his sacrifice. Any group that does not hold to the cardinal doctrines of the apostolic faith (Obama's does not) may identify itself with the word "church" but since it does not meet the definition of the word, it is a flase identification. The Bible is clear that many such false teachers and organizations exist and will continue to exist.

2. Obama did what he had to do for political expediency. His attendance throughout the years of Wright's "church", as well as his personal knowledge of the man, reveals that Obama was more interested in what voters think rather than what he himself thinks. He is a politician playing (preying) on the minds of the weak.

Pam Meloy

I understand the frustration. There is no honest debate on every site and each site is loaded with people who really do not want to collaborate to advance our intellectual understanding of what it is we are experiencing in this day and time, 40 years later after the Dream. They listen to propagandists to get the script for the day then they try very hard to change the subject because they know they cannot debate you on any subject without their script. The fact that these tricksters have now been successful in twisting what is reality, is extremely disturbing and have given me a view or glimpse into why a group of people develop “herd mentality” and could follow a Jim Jones, a Racists , a Hitler , Rwanda rebels and many others who have a sick and warped mind or thinking processes. The non-racist remained silent knowing they have a moral responsibility to stand up and say, No, this interpretation of what occurred in the Black Church is not what you say it is. After seeing the non-racist and racist alike successfully wage a campaign against Rev. Wright and the Father by twisting the sermons and illustration of how superior one’s thinking processes work , it has become clear to me how many could follow a deceiver.
These two preachers in their style of painting a vivid picture of the travesties and pain inflicted on the targeted race and their experiences is now called the racist themselves. The Messenger is the Racist? This is got to be considered one of the greatest FARCE in American History. I ask again, how is it that the messenger who conveys racist behavior, describes it, acts it out in front of the targeted race is now consider stirring up trouble or inflammatory remarks? What is inflammatory is that which the messenger is describing! Sticking your head in the sand, pretending that racism has disappeared and prohibiting one to discuss what the targeted race faces in different ways, does not make the messenger himself a racist!
Presidential candidate Obama should have not bowed to the tricksters plot. By bowing he is now entered into a sphere that has tangled webs in which he will always be in a position to appease the ones who seek to control him.
BTW, Those of you working in places that have the ability to launch retaliation against me for continuing to sound the alarm and blowing the whistle and exposing what is happening, does not go unnoticed and soon it will also be exposed, so back off. If man does not stand up for mankind and his posterity while he or her is living then the DASH between birth and death would mean nothing.
You see I come from a people who lived in a time where they were pressed down on every side but survived to bring me here at this point and time. And while you are denigrated the Black Church they taught me one thing! There is a God that sits high and looks low. You do not want to mess with a Child of God! We are more than conquerors and we are not defined by those racist who would seek to harm me physically and financially by cutting off my gas to heat my home and water as well as closing the account, terminating my car insurance and making me pay more usury fees because of the law or withdrawing my child from school because you have the power to do so, or stopping my family while driving everyday for no reason.
You see we are either entering a storm, in the middle of a storm or coming out of a storm and while I may stumble because of the blows you launch, you will see one set of footsteps in the sand because God will never put more on me than I can bear. My conscience will not allow me to remain silent any longer while the few racist in the 10% part of society make it seem that Blacks in American and Whites in America do not love each other like brothers and sisters. We do love each other like Brothers and Sisters! We eat, work, laugh, pray, play, love and fight together every day and the few racist who seek to paint another picture of what the American experiences when it comes to interaction with each other is not enough to change this reality.
What I describe in anything I write is a few who would seek to reverse time and the progresses we have achieved. The last frontier where the Dream has not been realized is in the area of Laws that shift depending on who it is the law is being applied to, Policies that companies can choose to enforce or not enforce, Credit Scoring system whose own formula is a secret where there is no transparencies, high unnecessary Taxes , the continued ignorance of the Acorn report, loan sharking fees for the people who are unable to get out of a financial sphere they find themselves in and scoring system ensures they stay in, the high interest rates and High insurance rates, the Industrial prison demographic make-up, the inner city cold cases verses and it’s high rate of murder and shelter availability for people of color. The lack of transparency in SOL testing and other testing that would score our children however not let you have the test back to see the actual questions they supposedly got wrong. Where there is no transparency there is opportunity for people who are corrupt and not honest to manipulate reports and statistic. Remember Tuskegee?

hammerhead : "Being that it was born again local poltical expediency that led Rip VanObama to this church in the first place,it is no surprise,now that a much more diverse constituency is being courted,that his real core belief in political expediency has produced yet another conversion for Mr Rip VanObama.
But in all fairness after that long 20 year slumber in which he never heard a word of it,things were bound to be different when he awoke."

HOW WITTY!

Being that it was born again local poltical expediency that led Rip VanObama to this church in the first place,it is no surprise,now that a much more diverse constituency is being courted,that his real core belief in political expediency has produced yet another conversion for Mr Rip VanObama.
But in all fairness after that long 20 year slumber in which he never heard a word of it,things were bound to be different when he awoke.

Actually Mr Obama's current beliefs hail from the church of political expediency.

For Mr. and Mrs. Obama's benefit:

As noted many times:

"No, I do not suffer from Obsessive, Compulsive, Behavioral, Disorder.

What I and most of the other hominids to include yourself suffer from is the Three B Syndrome i.e being Bred, Born and Brainwashed in religions that are based on hallucinations, myths, embellishments and lies. And what is almost hilarious about this is how we have bought into these fictional "pretty wingie thingie" stories for so long.

The "fems" (flaws, errors, muck and stench) of the various religions are now known.

We await someone to clean up Islam. The clean-up of Judaism and Christianity is well on its way.

CCNL, you might like to google the term Obsessive Compulsive Disorder and read up the information on the NIMH & Wikipedia links among others.

A slogan taken from Senator Obama's new religious views:

"No one is safe until the koran is deflawed and mosques are "febrezed!!!!!!