Obama Quits Church

Since Barack Obama identifies himself as a Christian, it makes sense that he resigned from his church. I hope he finds time to seriously study the Bible and then looks for others who worship God with what the Bible calls “spirit and truth”.

These are some points he might meditate on:

1. True religion practices love. True worshippers are not divided by race, or culture, and display ‘love among themselves.’

“By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves.””
(John 13:35)

“At this Peter opened his mouth and said: “For a certainty I perceive that God is not partial, but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him.”
(Acts 10:34,35)

Rather than killing one another, true worshippers are willing to die for one another.

“But whoever has this world’s means for supporting life and beholds his brother having need and yet shuts the door of his tender compassions upon him, in what way does the love of God remain in him?”
(1 John 3:16)

2. True religion trusts God’s Word. Instead of teaching tradition and man’s philosophy as doctrines, true religion bases its doctrines on God’s Word, the Bible.

“And so YOU have made the word of God invalid because of YOUR tradition. YOU hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about YOU, when he said, ‘This people honors me with their lips, yet their heart is far removed from me. It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach commands of men as doctrines.’”
(Matthew 15:6-9)

“All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness,”
(2 Timothy 3:16)

3. True religion strengthens families and upholds high moral standards.

“In this way husbands ought to be loving their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself,”
(Ephesians 5:28)

“Nevertheless, also, let each one of YOU individually so love his wife as he does himself; on the other hand, the wife should have deep respect for her husband.”
(Ephesians 5:33)

“Children, be obedient to YOUR parents in union with [the] Lord, for this is righteous: “Honor your father and [your] mother”; which is the first command with a promise: “That it may go well with you and you may endure a long time on the earth.” And YOU, fathers, do not be irritating YOUR children, but go on bringing them up in the discipline and mental-regulating of Jehovah.”
(Ephesians 6:1-4)

4. Those entrusted with positions of authority must have exemplary morals.

“If any man is reaching out for an office of overseer, he is desirous of a fine work. The overseer should therefore be irreprehensible, a husband of one wife, moderate in habits, sound in mind, orderly, hospitable, qualified to teach, not a drunken brawler, not a smiter, but reasonable, not belligerent, not a lover of money, a man presiding over his own household in a fine manner, having children in subjection with all seriousness; (if indeed any man does not know how to preside over his own household, how will he take care of God’s congregation?) not a newly converted man, for fear that he might get puffed up [with pride] and fall into the judgment passed upon the Devil. Moreover, he should also have a fine testimony from people on the outside, in order that he might not fall into reproach and a snare of the Devil.
Ministerial servants should likewise be serious, not double-tongued, not giving themselves to a lot of wine, not greedy of dishonest gain, holding the sacred secret of the faith with a clean conscience.
Also, let these be tested as to fitness first, then let them serve as ministers, as they are free from accusation.”
(1 Timothy 3:1-10)

5. True religion produces good fruit.

“Likewise every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit;”
(Matthew 7:17)

6. True religion honors God's name.

“That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah,
You alone are the Most High over all the earth.”
(Psalms 83:18)

Jesus made God's name, Jehovah, known to others.

“YOU must pray, then, this way:
“‘Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified.”
(Matthew 6:9)

“ “I have made your name manifest to the men you gave me out of the world. They were yours, and you gave them to me, and they have observed your word.”
(John 17:6)

“And I have made your name known to them and will make it known, in order that the love with which you loved me may be in them and I in union with them.””
(John 17:26)

True worshipers make known God’s name.

“For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.” However, how will they call on him in whom they have not put faith? How, in turn, will they put faith in him of whom they have not heard? How, in turn, will they hear without someone to preach?”
(Romans 10:13,14)

7. True religion looks to God’s Kingdom as the solution to all mankind’s problems.
God’s Kingdom will bring true peace and security to the earth.

“Do not put YOUR trust in nobles,
Nor in the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs.
His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground;
In that day his thoughts do perish.
Happy is the one who has the God of Jacob for his help,
Whose hope is in Jehovah his God,
The Maker of heaven and earth,
Of the sea, and of all that is in them,
The One keeping trueness to time indefinite,”
(Psalm 146:3-5)

True worshipers preach about God's Kingdom. Jesus did so. He always talked about the Kingdom.

“Shortly afterwards he went journeying from city to city and from village to village, preaching and declaring the good news of the kingdom of God. And the twelve were with him,”
(Luke 8:1)

He commanded his disciples to preach this same message in all the earth.

“And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.”
(Matthew 24:14)

“Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU. And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.””
(Matthew 28: 19, 20)

8. True religion is no part of this wicked world.

“They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.”
(John 17:16)

They do not get involved in the world's political affairs and social controversies. They avoid the harmful conduct, practices, and attitudes that are common in the world.

“The form of worship that is clean and undefiled from the standpoint of our God and Father is this: to look after orphans and widows in their tribulation, and to keep oneself without spot from the world.”
(James 1:27)

“Adulteresses, do YOU not know that the friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friend of the world is constituting himself an enemy of God.”
(James 4:4)

IN REPLY TO (IRT)
MR MARK :
ZZIM SEZ:
IRT:
"The guy promoted a solution to a problem. To do that he quoted the information favorable to his position. That's not a lie, that's called rallying public support for a proposed public policy."

ANS:
Relying on the Clinton Administration CIA, Gen. Powell and Cheney spent two weeks at the CIA before addressing the UN to make sure the data was correct. Powel later said his address to the UN was the greatest embarrassment in his whole life. If you think he intentionally lied, think again.

IRA:
"Care to explain the infamous 16 words in bush's SOTUA? You know, the LIE about SH attempting to buy yellow cake from Niger, a LIE that was shot down before the SOTUA as being unreliable intel by the CIA?"

ANS:
THE SENATE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE REPORT FINDS THAT WILSON'S "DESCRIPTION OF HIS FINDINGS DIFFERED FROM THE DO INTELLIGENCE REPORT AND HIS ACCOUNT OF INFORMATION PROVIDED TO HIM BY THE CIA DIFFERED FROM THE CIA OFFICIALS' ACCOUNTS IN SOME RESPECTS": So who is the real liar?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senate_Reports_of_Pre-war_Intelligence_on_Iraq_pertaining_to_Joseph_C._Wilson%27s_Niger_Trip#The_U.S._Senate_Select_Committee_on_Intelligence_Reports_relating_to_Wilson.27s_Niger_trip

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Report_on_the_U.S._Intelligence_Community%27s_Prewar_Intelligence_Assessments_on_Iraq#Niger_and_the_Iraqi_nuclear_program

THE ASSESSMENT ADDED THAT 'SOME OFFICIALS MAY HAVE CONSPIRED FOR INDIVIDUAL GAIN TO ARRANGE A URANIUM SALE,' but considered President Tandja's government highly unlikely to risk relations with the U.S. and other key aid donors.

"In a written response to a question from Committee staff on this matter, the Department of State said the assessment was distributed through the routine distribution process in which intelligence documents are delivered to the White House situation room, but State did not provide the assessment directly to the Vice President in a special delivery." (42)[1][2]

"First, the former ambassador described his findings to Committee staff as more directly related to Iraq and, specifically, as refuting both the possibility that Niger could have sold uranium to Iraq and that Iraq approached Niger to purchase uranium.

"The intelligence report described how the structure of Niger's uranium mines would make it difficult, if not impossible, for Niger to sell uranium to [rogue] nations.

"It noted that Nigerian officials denied knowledge of any deals to sell uranium to any rogue states, BUT DID NOT REFUTE THE POSSIBILITY THAT IRAQ HAD APPROACHED NIGER TO PURCHASE URANIUM [IN THE PAST]."

Senate Report on Pre-war Intelligence on Iraq
Redirected from Report on the U.S. Intelligence Community's Prewar Intelligence Assessments on Iraq)

“THE REPORT CONCLUDES THAT PRIOR TO OCTOBER, 2002, IT WAS REASONABLE FOR THE INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY TO ASSESS IRAQ MAY HAVE BEEN ATTEMPTING TO OBTAIN URANIUM FROM AFRICA.”

The blind see nothing; the predisposed see only what they want to see and sometimes see things that don’t exists. It’s an affliction that has infected the iconoclast and troglodytes, who live in the alternate world, all their lives.

You’ve mentioned Joe Wilson, now do you have the courage read about him and his book.

http://www.slate.com/id/2100121/

“Wilson has had to alter his story so many times—he first denied that the CIA had anything to do with selecting him for the Niger mission and later claimed that he had exposed a forgery that wasn't disclosed until after he returned—that the mind reels at having to reread his conceited book.

Peace : "With the convincing victory of Obama the dawn of a new era has begun in U S and for that America and rest of the world should be grateful and hopefully will be better off"

The only thing Obama will win is "first place" in lying.

McCain will win the election, thank God!

Fred :

Since everything you said is incorrect and so vague, generalized and typical of someone who does not want to debate his/her true belief there is no need to debate you. I guess he said your hair was purple also. TWISTED!!!!! You know he did not do that however, I can't blame you for you inability to comprehend a conversation. The folks you follow typically think for you. Your general statements are insulting and a shame! Your attempt to redefine what racism has failed, so call you radio station and tell them I said that.

CCNL, I shall go to all corners of the world and proclaim how important it is to get a fast scrolling mouse.

Anon, Anon, Anon Wherever You Are,

As a good student, you have read the reiterations of the "fems" of religion. Therefore the seeds have been planted in rich soil. Go therefore and preach the truth to all nations, reiterating as you go amongst the lost, bred, born and brainwashed souls of Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism as Reality makes its triumphant return all because of you!!!!

The only person CCNL has brainwashed with his slogans is himself. But he likes to make believe he has made great headway with everyone he has driven up the wall with his cut-an'-paste list for the past nineteen months.

Mr. Mark, Mr. Mark, Mr. Mark,

I doubt that all the information available to President Bush was known by the advisors you listed. Simply put Iraq is another element of the war on terror and aggression which we have been fighting since 1776. And your yucky, play boy Bill Clinton has a lot to answer for in not carrying out his duties as commander and chief.

And check the news everyday for the latest on the Sunni-Shiite civil war which continues almost on a global scale thanks to Iran and the "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia and their boy, OBL.

Name one actual lie concerning Iraq. WMD no sorry the fact that we haven't found as much as we expected to find does not constitute a lie. Not given that both John Kerry and Bill Clinton still thought he had such weapons in the late 90's

End of major combat operations? NO sorry there have been in military parlance no Major combat operations since that statement was made. Major combat operations being divisional or larger in size. The largest operation since then was Fallujah which was at best a reinforce battalion about an 1/8 of a division maybe less. Even if there had since been major combat operations you still could accuse him of lying unless you could prove he was omniscient. Which I doubt seriously you really want to argue.

Athena writes:

"When it comes to Iraq, there were certainly some fabrications on the part of the Administration..."

Wow.

It must be little comfort to the families of the fallen to know that the cold, dead bodies of their loved ones are so due to "some fabrications on the part of the administration." How uplifting, how patriotic it must make them feel to know that their sons and daughters died for "some fabrications."

I wonder - how many times would bush have needed to knowingly lie for the phrase, "Bush lied, people died" to be considered operative by the bush apologists? A hundred times? A thousand times?

Isn't a SINGLE LIE enough if that lie is responsible for the death of as few as TWO people?

Sometimes, it really is a simple as it seems.

Bush lied, people - tens of thousands of them - died.

Case closed.

ZZim sez:

"The guy promoted a solution to a problem. To do that he quoted the information favorable to his position. That's not a lie, that's called rallying public support for a proposed public policy."

Care to explain the infamous 16 words in bush's SOTUA? You know, the LIE about SH attempting to buy yellow cake from Niger, a LIE that was shot down before the SOTUA as being unreliable intel by the CIA? A LIE that the CIA had stricken out of earlier bush speeches? A LIE that Cheney wanted to have confirmed as a truth, asking the CIA to find out, which led the CIA to send Joe Wilson to Niger, who reported back that it was a lie, which report Cheney and bush read and elected to ignore as it confirmed the lie of the lie they wished to tell the public?

That's called lying, my friend.

You bush apologists are sick people.

I was actually referring to CCNL's love affair with his cut and paste keys, and his response when called on it.

When it comes to Iraq, there were certainly some fabrications on the part of the Administration, and that we should never have gone in there. I also agree with the poster that said that we didn't recognize the Sunni-Shia blood feud - or at least didn't think that it would matter too much. But the truth is much more complicated than the phrase "Bush lied, people died" would lead one to believe.

CCNL writes:
"Unfortunately Bush et al failed to recognize the 800 year old blood feud between the Sunnis and Shiites and we ended up in the middle of a civil war."

Then they were criminally negligent. It's not like that info wasn't out there. *I* knew it - and all I do is read. How is it that they didn't stumble across this information? It was reported more than once by WaPo during the run-up to the war. OK, not necessarily on the front page, but in the A section - not too hard to find if you have the slightest bit of intellectual curiosity - or, say, a *job* to do, like leading the country...doh!

You know, Athena, I have thought the very same thing for years. Every day somebody in the media says "Bsuh Lied, People Died" and every time I look at the evidence, it's never a lie. The guy promoted a solution to a problem. To do that he quoted the information favorable to his position. That's not a lie, that's called rallying public support for a proposed public policy.

If anything, I think Bush has been very weak on this score in that the administration should be spending a lot more effort to promote the war even now. Like you said, too many people have swallowed the big lie that "Bush lied, people died".

CCNL babbles: "As you know, slogans are repeated again and again until the electorate is converted to Reality and Truth."

Compare that with...

“Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it” - Adolph Hitler.

And now I invoke Godwin's Law on myself.

Concerned The Christian Now Liberated asks:

"But did Bush lie?"

According to the Senate report issued last week (a report delayed for years by the Rs on the committee), YES, bush did lie. So did Cheney. So did Powell. So did Rice.

Confirmed by Scott McClellan.

Confirmed by Joe Wilson.

Confirmed by Scott Ritter.

Confirmed by Richard Clarke.

Confirmed by Lt. Gen. Ricardo S. Sanchez.

Confirmed by Vincent Bugliosi.

Confirmed by just about everybody who has left the administration and by investigative reporters around the world like Christopher Scheer, James Risen and Thomas Ricks.

Of course, if you wish to suspend disbelief and take the bush spin as truth, then, you're welcome to it. Why you would wish to carry water for such ghouls when the evidence is so clear is beyond the comprehension of most thinking people.

Mr. Mark, Mr. Mark, Mr. Mark,

But did Bush lie? It was obvious Saddam had active programs for WMD before and during the Gulf War. And he continued to brag about them even after most, as we know now, were destroyed. The guy was a low-life tyrant just ask the Shiites and Kuwaitis and he needed to be eliminated.

Unfortunately Bush et al failed to recognize the 800 year old blood feud between the Sunnis and Shiites and we ended up in the middle of a civil war. Many leading Democrats and Republicans have recommended a partioning of Iraq with the Kurds in the North, the Sunnis in Baghdad and Center and the Shiites in the South. And this probably will be the final solution because of the continued vindictiveness demonstrated by the religious leaders of in the region especially the Shiite ayatollahs in the nuclear and terrorist state of Iran and the Sunni OBL-supporting "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia. The separation should have been enforced from Day 1.

Hmmm? No Republicans have stepped forward to tell us why they're still Rs after it has become clear that gw bush knowingly lied us into a war in Iraq. Why are they still Republicans? Why do they not resign their Party affiliation? Why were they ever Rs to begin with?

C'mon Fred, GaryD, Hammerhead, Jason Dollar et al. You have plenty of bad things to say about Obama and his church, but nothing about bush's lies. How many people have died due to Obama leaving his church? How many have died for bush's lies? Certainly, if you're going to take Obama to task, you MUST take bush to task at an astronomical rate if you want to be fair about it.

So, let me ask you again: knowing that bush KNOWINGLY lied us into a war that has cost 4,000+ American lives, tens of thousands of Iraq lives and billions of dollars in treasure, why have you not resigned from (or changed your affiliation away from) the Republican Party?

I'm all ears.

For Mr. Obama and Mr. McCain only:

As you know, slogans are repeated again and again until the electorate is converted to Reality and Truth.

Hopefully, you will adopt the following slogan for your presidential and religious campaigns:

"Until the koran is deflawed, the mosques are "febrezed" and the Sunnis and Shiites including their imams, clerics and ayatollahs are pacified, no one is safe!!!!"

Please note that this slogan has been submitted for copyright protection so don't use it without our permission :))

With the convincing victory of Obama the dawn of a new era has begun in U S and for that America and rest of the world should be grateful and hopefully will be better off

With Obama's convincing victory the dawn of a new era has begun in the U S and for that, America and rest of the world should be grateful and hopefully will be better off

With Obama's convincing victory the dawn of a new era has begun in the U S and for that, America and rest of the world should be grateful and hopefully will be better off

Mr. Mark, Mr. Mark, Mr. Mark,

Jesus lived and was crucified. Such is the belief of many Democrats and Republicans.

An as an update concerning the actions of current and previous :

An update (or how Democratic and Republican administrations are spending or have spent USA taxpayers’ money to eliminate global terror and aggression)

The terror and aggression via a Partial and Recent Body Count

1) Assassination of Benazir Bhutto

2) 9/11, 3000 mostly US citizens, 1000’s injured

3) The 24/7 Sunni-Shiite centuries-old blood feud currently being carried out in Iraq, 4056 US troops and 83,521 – 91,094 Iraqi civilians http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

4) Kenya- In Nairobi, about 212 people were killed and an estimated 4000 injured; in Dar es Salaam, the attack killed at least 11 and wounded 85.[2]

5) Bali-in 2002-killing 202 people, 164 of whom were foreign nationals, and 38 Indonesian citizens. A further 209 people were injured.

6) Bali in 2005- Twenty people were killed, and 129 people were injured by three bombers who killed themselves in the attacks.

7) Spain in 2004- killing 191 people and wounding 2,050.

8) UK in 2005- The bombings killed 52 commuters and the four radical Islamic suicide bombers, injured 700.

Other elements of our War on Terror:

1. Saddam, his sons and major henchmen have been deleted. Saddam's bravado about WMD was one of his major mistakes.

2. Iran is being been contained. (beside containing the Sunni-Shiite civil war in Baghdad, that is the main reason we are in Iraq. And yes, essential oil continues to flow from the region.)

3. Libya has become almost civil. Apparently this new reality from an Islamic country has upset OBL and his “crazies” as they recently threatened Libya. OBL sure is a disgrace to the world especially the Moslem world!!!

4. North Korea is still uncivil but is contained. With the opening up of rail traffic between North and South Korea after 50 years and with the assistance of the US Navy in retrieving NK ships and personnel, a fresh sense of civility is afoot. One of the most eminent US cultural institutions, the New York Philharmonic Orchestra, has performed a landmark concert in North Korea.

The concert included music by Western composers and a Korean folk song, and was broadcast live on local television.

Unfortunately, North Korea’s apparent move toward peace did not last long as they fired test missiles recently and threatened South Korea with military action recently.

5. Northern Ireland is finally at peace.

6. The Jews and Palestinians are being separated by walls. Hopefully the walls will follow the 1948 UN accords and the Annapolis Peace Conference is at least somewhat successful.

7. Bin Laden has been cornered under a rock in Western Pakistan since 9/11.

8. Fanatical Islam has basically been contained to the Middle East but a wall between India and Pakistan would be a plus for world peace. Ditto for a wall between Afghahistan and Pakistan.

9.Timothy McVeigh was executed. Terry Nichols will follow soon.

10. Eric Rudolph is spending three life terms in prison with no parole.

11. Jim Jones, David Koresh, Kaczynski, the "nuns" from Rwanda, and the KKK were all dealt with and either eliminated themselves or are being punished.

12. Islamic Sudan, Darfur and Somalia are still terror hot spots.

13. The terror and torture of Muslims in Bosnia, Kosovo and Kuwait were ended by the proper application of the military forces of the USA and her freedom-loving friends.

14. And of course the bloody terror brought about the Japanese, Nazis and Communists was with great difficulty eliminated by the good guys.

I'm a bit amused at all the "Obama shoulda quit/never joined that church" posts on this thread.

I'm going to go ahead and assume that most of the people taking Obama to task on this issue are Republicans. So let me ask all my Republican friends out there:

now that you KNOW that bush knowingly lied us into war, why haven't you resigned from the Republican Party?

I await your replies. ;)

GAPRDESC,

What specific reason do I give for my statements?

That he should never have joined the church?
1. God's name is used in vain from the pulpit.
2. Racism is preached from the pulpit.
3. Politics are preached from the pulpit.
4. Hate is preached from the pulpit.

That he is just a typical politician?
1. He says things just to get elected -- according to his own (former) pastor.
2. He speaks out of both sides of his mouth -- telling folks in San Francisco one thing, while telling folks in middle America another.
3. He says he won't accept money from lobbyists but gladly accepts money from those affiliated with lobbyists.
4. He says he's against NAFTA, then has his people tell Canada not to worry, that he really doesn't mean what he's saying.

How's that?

Obama's clinging to his political life as he jettisons the church he slumbered thru for twenty years identifies him clearly as a typical politician

In my humble opinion, he said he resigned, but I bet he actually lied. He does this a lot, he and his wife are evil in many ways, trying to turn people away from the church that said those bad things about America. We do have lots of problems, but I don't think ranting and raving is anyway to solve. About health care, I don't need to worry, am a veteran of WW2, female marine & all the care is taken by VA. If some of the people who gamble in Vegas, drink whiskey, beer and other alcoholic beverages and smoke would take this money and put on health care, would solve the problem, but they won't. Ear marks are also a HUGE problem, but one last comment, ALL POLITICIANS ARE LIARS, LOOKING FOR POWER AND MONEY and from the looks of the crooks in Washington, it is pitiful that so many tax dollars are lining pockets of POLITICIANS. THANKS, goldie

Anon/aka One Who Knows - well, at least one person knew what and who you were referring to.
Not a total loss after all....

Sorry for the harsh words - some of us should hold ourselves in check!

Fred,

What specific reason do you give for you statements?

Should Obama have quit his church?

He should never have JOINED that church! But since he did, it was rather political of him to quit now after being a member for 20 years, especially after referring to Rev. Wright as his "uncle" and saying he could no more disown Rev. Wright than he could the black community.

Change he says? Sounds like a typical politician to me.

Jason Dollar,

2. Early Christian Writings, earlychristianwritings.com/
-- a list of early Christian documents to include the year of publication
30-60 CE Passion Narrative
40-80 Lost Sayings Gospel Q
50-60 1 Thessalonians
50-60 Philippians
50-60 Galatians
50-60 1 Corinthians
50-60 2 Corinthians
50-60 Romans
50-60 Philemon
50-80 Colossians
50-90 Signs Gospel
50-95 Book of Hebrews
50-120 Didache
50-140 Gospel of Thomas
50-140 Oxyrhynchus 1224 Gospel
50-200 Sophia of Jesus Christ
65-80 Gospel of Mark
70-100 Epistle of James
70-120 Egerton Gospel
70-160 Gospel of Peter
70-160 Secret Mark
70-200 Fayyum Fragment
70-200 Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs
73-200 Mara Bar Serapion
80-100 2 Thessalonians
80-100 Ephesians
80-100 Gospel of Matthew
80-110 1 Peter
80-120 Epistle of Barnabas
80-130 Gospel of Luke
80-130 Acts of the Apostles
80-140 1 Clement
80-150 Gospel of the Egyptians
80-150 Gospel of the Hebrews
80-250 Christian Sibyllines
90-95 Apocalypse of John
90-120 Gospel of John
90-120 1 John
90-120 2 John
90-120 3 John
90-120 Epistle of Jude
93 Flavius Josephus
100-150 1 Timothy
100-150 2 Timothy
100-150 Titus
100-150 Apocalypse of Peter
100-150 Secret Book of James
100-150 Preaching of Peter
100-160 Gospel of the Ebionites
100-160 Gospel of the Nazoreans
100-160 Shepherd of Hermas
100-160 2 Peter

It depends on whose timing you believe. Both the Acts of the Apostles and John's Gospel from the above listing were written during the same time period. And both were written well after the crucifixion and both are highly embellished accounts.

Jason,
I misunderstood what you met by Apostolic Faith. Thank you for clearing that up. Why is it that you believe the Black church does not believe in the teachings of the Bible and strays away from the Bible teaching? Can you give a specific example? There are many different denominations that from what I know, get hung up on one or two words in the Bible then split into a separate sect, like saying the name of Jesus vs. saying the Father the Son and the Holy Ghost. I’m not a scholar in religion however, I’ve been raised up in a church long enough to know in the Black Church it is so strict and one must follow letter of the Bible that at times as a human is hard to live by. I also know some take a verse that says covering of the head to mean actually covering the head where the other takes it to mean something else. So over time I’ve learned that whoever is interpreting the scriptures may at times over the decade get it wrong and have to go back and revisit the scriptures again. Such as "Is it the husband that covers the wife and is to love her like God loves the church?."
You write that the truth is exclusive by nature. Truth meaning, Fact, reality certainty, accuracy genuineness, precision, exactness, legitimacy is by it’s very nature exclusive meaning elite, select, restricted , limited private, fashionable, special, not inclusive meaning wide-ranging – all-encompassing, complete, broad, general? Jesus Christ teachings say he is the way the truth and the light and you feel from this it is the exact way to God the father? Correct?
You go on to write a stereotype of the Black Church and more specifically this particular wing of the church which you characterize as “liberal”, correct? BTW, when I hear liberal I equate this to the “N word” used to denigrate a person or a person’s belief by the right wing who do think of themselves as the superior ones, elite ones or special ones; however, I will try to think that you are saying liberal in a different context for the purposes of understanding what you write. So here, you are not denigrating a person or Church, you feel that “liberal” best describes the Black Church right? Liberal meaning, open-minded, broadminded, moderate, noninterventionist, freethinking, tolerant, not narrow-minded? You also believe these Black Churches belong to protestant Christianity who somehow read the Bible but denied the truth therein? You describe this type of reading as face-reading (matter-of-fact reading) meaning unemotional, straightforward , factual, calm, down-to-earth, blunt? Then you go on to condemned the Church, it’s teachers and people in it because of the stereotype or because you have been in these churches or have been raised in them, so you feel you know what is taught in them?
Are you trying to convey here that the Christian church does not believe that the way to God is through Jesus Christ? Can you give specifics on your analogy of 4 pm in N.Y. and all other claiming it is 6 AM?
When the racists forced Presidential Candidate Obama to resign from the Church of God it was the last straw for many of us. They have crossed a line that should never have been crossed and media continuing to denigrate their religion, Church, it’s pastors, it’s people and their Bible has stooped to a new low just when we thought the racists couldn’t get any lower than they already are after bombing the church with 4 little girls in it. It is this dangerous rhetoric that the non-racist tends to dabble in with the racist that leads to such deplorable acts. When the racists and non-racist alike took the scolding given to the racist out of context by Rev. Wright and others it was a sign this rhetoric has reach dangerous levels!!!! It has nothing to do with Jesus but everything to do with twisting what actually is being said to be something it is not such as “inflammatory remarks”. Again what is inflammatory is that which the messenger described and yet one continues to twist the truth to suit their own political gains.
In summary, when a whole lot of people used the Bible to justify slavery you somehow think that the sheer numbers got it right and that the many who followed blindly out of fear themselves also got it right? You would say the sheer numbers who followed Hitler got it right? No! it is you that is speaking and you must stand behind what you believe because throwing in sheer numbers of people in the past who on many occasions followed the leader blindly is not proving anything to me. They almost always got it wrong and when the few dare to go against the majority like the saying the “world is round “ instead of the “world is flat” they were scorned for it like Rev. Wright putting all racists in their place.
Finally, you must be talking to other readers that you too, like Rev Wright want to get told or put in their place. The Black Church reads and studies the scriptures. I can’t speak for this specific division however, if you are trying to convey that the Black Church is the “N word “ of religion than you are wrong. Now, because I am taught that Jesus is the way the truth and the light, I am not going to force my beliefs on the Atheist or others who do not know the word nor have they been taught the word. It is those who know the way and have been taught that need to worry about being given over to a reprobate mind.
This rhetoric that the right wing spews over the airwaves has reached dangerous levels. The twisting of the truth while placing Dark faces up to spew the lie has also reached past dangerous level. It is as bad as it was when people felt comfortable bombing the Black Church with for little girls in it. I advise the non-racist to see the racists for what they are and to stop taking up for the racists. They feel their sheer numbers which includes the fooled non-racists, that they are justified and can interfere and undermine Democracy by launching Operation Chaos and you followed blindly as if this person is an agent of God himself. Also watch out for the “FEAR TACTIC” they will use to control you and your thinking processes. Always remember your friends of the other race they target. The ones you go bowling with, eat dinner with, play with, laugh with and work with. These ungodly people will seek to make the race monolithic and without personality so that you fear the image they create instead of see the targeted races as a real human being.
Anyway, I may or may not understand the message you are trying to convey and we may need to get to a place where we agree to disagree. At the very least, we had a honest discussion about what we believe and that has to be worth something .
Now, answer my questions how is it that the Preacher who describes a situation is called a racist and the actual racist escapes ridicule in America today?

The US empire rests on griftly foundation: the massacre of millions of indigenos people,the stealing of their lands,and following this,the kidnapping and enslavement of millions of black people from Africa to work on that land.Thousands died on the seas while they were being shipped like caged cattle between continents

[Howard Zinn 2001,A peoples History Of United
STATES]

Does Obama has guts to bring change? or will he be another corporate agent?

BTW,

Robert Carter the III freed over 500 slaves in the late 1700. Read about John Mercer Langston who rose to be a congressman. Even my ancestors rose to be great at a time when slavery was happening. Today just like then it is those who are less than 10% of the population who own radio stations and TV that would continue to ridicule Blacks who rise in position in society and inflicted financial hardship on those who they dislike because of their color. My point is despite the fact that many want to interpret what Rev. Wright preached as "inflammatory remarks" it is not true, and it is so far from the truth that it is worst than a lie. The only one who should be mad is the racists himself or herself who pontificates days of old separation of the races.
The racist say pull yourself up by your boot straps knowing that when we tried they often burned their towns down and took their wealth while murdering the people. Today this racists own the boots and the straps and would withhold them from you with the “Credit Score” while saying pull yourself up, They say you should have personal responsibility, which I believe, knowing that when we are stopped in the car everyday it is no longer my personal responsibility but the one who is trying to maintain control over me. They say it is the choices we make knowing that we had no chose if we wanted to get to work we would either pay the 28% interest or pay the same for a rental car. They say you should respect authority while the one in authority is usurping a different kind of authority one that is reminiscent of days of old. There is a difference from respect and the type of respect Blacks were made to do when a White was present.
The reason the Black Church has to continue to teach history is so that we never repeat history and we stamp out what is left. You see the issue here is not just the physical burden placed on a race of people but it is the psychological warfare that has been passed down from generation to generation that is the problem today.

Remember, it was White people who risk life and limb to help their Black brother to freedom, teach them to read and were willing to die for their darker brother. All my life some of my best friends have been and are white. I could never discriminate against white people.
Racist no matter what the color, I will never condone! However, I will never be silent on the racists disgusting actions charging usury fees, 28 % interest on a car, high interest rates for homes, a scoring system that would keep a race or class of people in a financial shambles by paying all sorts of fees because the score that never changes remains low from the day you estbalish credit and no institution will take a look at this practice over charging a group of people and perfecting the system by creating databases with all one's information, tracking their color and deducting loansharking beharvior over the last 40 years. Conducting redlining, packing people of color in jails and making laws such as three strikes and you are out which should translate into “if one is corrupt, then one can accuse you of three things and you automatically are part of the industrial prison complex where the rest of your Black men are. These corrupt people set laws for one group of people and laws for the other. These corrupt people enforce laws and policies on one set of folks while relaxing the policies for others. One gets 50 years and the other gets probation and we are not even talking murder in these cases. Just in case you try to twist what I am saying, Let me make it clear, if you do the crime you should do the time. If you do the time because of something you did not do, this is what I am talking about. We need to recheck the impact the “three strikes law” has had on the working middle and working poor and people of color. The non-racist continues to defend the racist and this is a problem.

Remember, it was White people who risk life and limb to help their Black brother to freedom, teach them to read and were willing to die for their darker brother. All my life some of my best friends have been and are white. I could never discriminate against white people.
Racist no matter what the color, I will never condone! However, I will never be silent on the racists disgusting actions charging usury fees, 28 % interest on a car, high interest rates for homes, a scoring system that would keep a race or class of people in a financial shambles by paying all sorts of fees because the score that never changes remains low from the day you estbalish credit and no institution will take a look at this practice over charging a group of people and perfecting the system by creating databases with all one's information, tracking their color and deducting loansharking beharvior over the last 40 years. Conducting redlining, packing people of color in jails and making laws such as three strikes and you are out which should translate into “if one is corrupt, then one can accuse you of three things and you automatically are part of the industrial prison complex where the rest of your Black men are. These corrupt people set laws for one group of people and laws for the other. These corrupt people enforce laws and policies on one set of folks while relaxing the policies for others. One gets 50 years and the other gets probation and we are not even talking murder in these cases. Just in case you try to twist what I am saying, Let me make it clear, if you do the crime you should do the time. If you do the time because of something you did not do, this is what I am talking about. We need to recheck the impact the “three strikes law” has had on the working middle and working poor and people of color. The non-racist continues to defend the racist and this is a problem.

I could never discriminate against Whites nor could I generalize the White race as all being racists However, we all make the mistake when speaking to say “White” when we mean “White racist”. This is unfortunate and a slip of the tongue and for that I do apologize for this. If this is why the non-racist is offended, then I understand their anger. This is not what we mean when we say “White” in derogatory ways. We are solely discussing the “White Racist” only. Now, realize that the Right wing and covert Democrats benefit from you lumping yourself in with the “White racist” and then become offended by anything said after that toward the White Racist. This is why I do not blame the listeners of the Fox News Radio and TV as well as ABC/CBS Radio stations. The sheep do not recognize the wolf in sheep clothing, so they side with the Racist defending the racist actions now and in the past.

GaryD and others, if you are a non-racist then in no way should you have been offended by anything I have written or anything Rev. Wright said or the Father said in the Black Church. Why you continue to take up for the racist is beyond me.

If you are a racist than you should be offended and upset that a Black would dare challenge your disgusting behavior through TV and get you told about your behavior. God will not bless anything you do if you are the racist described in the Sermon. Again, if you mess with a child of God you will not prosper.

GaryD,
Answer to response 1:
I wrote that my father and his father were of the Apostolic Faith, I did not say I was of the Apostolic Faith nor did I say I was raised Apostolic. The assumption you made is incorrect. I did allude to the fact that I do believe that Jesus is the son of God and is the Savior. What you will never see me do is knock someone else’s belief system. I’m trying to get to heaven and I suppose others are too through their own religions. Once man gets into trying to condemn other religions and say who is right and who is wrong then you see the sick, warped thinking processes as you see in the 9/11 attacks , Holocaust , the fate the Black race suffered and other travesties that I did not mention done in the name of religion or in the name of defending one’s nation. . These sheep who follow the few are brainwashed into to believe half truths and twisted lies to further their belief systems.

Jason Dollar wrote "1. Obama did not resign from a church, but rather a mostly secular organization which called itself a church. There is only one true and holy church represented by those groups that identify totally with Jesus Christ the Son of God, having their sins washed away by his sacrifice. Any group that does not hold to the cardinal doctrines of the apostolic faith (Obama's does not) may identify itself with the word "church" but since it does not meet the definition of the word, it is a flase identification. The Bible is clear that many such false teachers and organizations exist and will continue to exist.

2. Obama did what he had to do for political expediency. His attendance throughout the years of Wright's "church", as well as his personal knowledge of the man, reveals that Obama was more interested in what voters think rather than what he himself thinks. He is a politician playing (preying) on the minds of the weak."
......................

HOW RIGHT YOU ARE!

what do you know : "ANON/AKA ONE WHO KNOWS - idiotic response. Makes no more sense than your original post."

................

Not to me, oh well......I guess you shouldn't concern yourself with my post if it is that much of a difficulty to understand.

Thanks for the compliment though.

Concerned - Crossan is certainly a forminable voive for the position you are advocating about early church embellishments. But this theory is highly implausable for several reasons, not least of which is that John is not the only NT passage that teaches the concept of exclusivity. Acts 4:12 teaches the same notion and it is a much earlier work by nearly all accounts.

Obviously it would not be practical for me to list out all the objections to your comments, so here are a couple of articles for interested readers. The first is basic

http://www.probe.org/theology-and-philosophy/theology---bible/the-historical-reliability-of-the-gospels.html

The second a bit more difficult.

http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=4000

ANON/AKA ONE WHO KNOWS - idiotic response.
Makes no more sense than your original post.

Hmmm, "I am the Truth" i.e. John 14:6. This passage according to many NT exegetes, was not said by the historical Jesus but was wishful thinking and an embellishment by John to make Jesus more like the ancient and local gods of first century Palestine and to increase the number of converts (and the collection plate take). And note that what should be a very important passage only appears once in the NT. 210-. Place of Life: (1) Dial. Sav. 27-30, (2) John 14:2-12; http://www.faithfutures.org/Jesus/Crossan2.rtf

what do you know : "ONE WHO KNOWS - what and who are you referring to? And since your English is slightly impaired, I'm wondering if, nationally speaking, you might be of a foreign derivative. Imagine an American trying to speak Chinese, for example. Good luck with that!

You should, in all fairness, clarify your posts so that others might analyze and comment - "

///////////////

If it spoke to you then it was for you. The one it is for knows that it is for him......no clarification is needed.

Dear Gap - Sorry my comments came across offensively towards you. My desire is to remind readers that truth, by its very nature, is exclusive. Jesus Christ claims to be the exclusive way to God the Father (John 14:6) and thus all other ways are excluded. Rev. Wright and the United Churches of Christ generally, are a liberal wing of protestant Christianity who have historically denied the face-reading (matter-of-fact reading) of the Bible, and thus open the door for other ways to God.

Biblically, this makes them false churches leading people on paths of destruction.

Again, truth, by its very nature, is narrow. If the Bible is actually true, then everything antithetical to it is actually false.

If it is 4 PM in New York City, then all who claim that it is 6 AM are wrong. And we should not feel guilty about declaring them wrong, if indeed they are. Truth is valuable.

I respect Obama as a fellow human being, and if he wins the presidency, I will follow him as far as my conscience will allow, but I cannot respect him as a fellow believer in Jesus Christ since we believe totally different things about Christ.

You also implied that I am an arrogant person believing myself to be right and all others wrong. To this I would respond 1) that I do not think I exclusively am right. The entire church that stands on biblical truth holds to the only correct worldview and this included many millions of people through the centuries. So it is not just me as an individual who is right, but millions of us are.

2) None of us who hold to this correct worldview came up with it ourselves - if we did, then we would certainly be arrogant to claim that we alone are right. But this worldview was given to us and the world by Jesus Christ, who proved himself to be God by literally rising from the dead and ascending into heaven. Quite the opposite of what you said, true arrogance is to reject this Savior who has made it clear what he expects and demands of us.

Hope this helps clarify where I am coming from even if you continue to stand in disagreement. To be sure, I am not a miserable person.

PS - By using the term "Apostolic" I realize the ambiguity. By that term I mean the church founded by Peter, James, John, and Paul and their co-workers, as detailed in the Gospels and the book of Acts. I do not mean modern apostolic denominations, nor do I mean the Roman Catholic Church.

So, GAPRDDESC, you were raised in the Apostolic faith and yet believe,lying from the pulpit to be perfectly acceptable? To accuse another race of responsibility for doing something they not only didn't do but at the time it began to occur they couldn't possibly have done isn't racism?

Jason,
My father and his father and family are all of the Apostolic faith, so unfortunately I cannot debate you on your religion. I guess when that day comes we will all know who was right and who was wrong. Until then I will continue to live the life that Jesus the son of God says I should live.
Now, in your response you became like the Pharisees judging your brother and what he believes as well as thinking more highly of yourself than you ought. What a waste of time! You must be a miserable person to sit around thinking you got it right and everone around you got it wrong when it came to the Savior! The religion you associate yourself with does not have a monopoly on religion to a point where you can denigrate any other Church (people who believe not the building) or Faith that are full of people seeking what you claim you seek.
While the Bible is clear that the person that is interpreting the Bible below clearly has been given over to a reprobate mind. Oops, now I’ve become like the Pharisees. Please forgive me for thinking more highly of myself than I ought by calling you names and disrespecting you and your beliefs.
Answer my questions, How is it that the messenger describing racist behavior has been translated to be the “RACIST”? How is it that when talking about the disgraceful actions of ignorant people is defined to be “Inflammatory Remarks”? Preachers of the Bible where never defined by the words they preached to the people. Why are these two preachers fair game in this warped and twisted way of thinking? Repeating the same lie over and over again through out the air waves does not make what is being said true!

1. Obama did not resign from a church, but rather a mostly secular organization which called itself a church. There is only one true and holy church represented by those groups that identify totally with Jesus Christ the Son of God, having their sins washed away by his sacrifice. Any group that does not hold to the cardinal doctrines of the apostolic faith (Obama's does not) may identify itself with the word "church" but since it does not meet the definition of the word, it is a flase identification. The Bible is clear that many such false teachers and organizations exist and will continue to exist.

2. Obama did what he had to do for political expediency. His attendance throughout the years of Wright's "church", as well as his personal knowledge of the man, reveals that Obama was more interested in what voters think rather than what he himself thinks. He is a politician playing (preying) on the minds of the weak.

Pam Meloy

I understand the frustration. There is no honest debate on every site and each site is loaded with people who really do not want to collaborate to advance our intellectual understanding of what it is we are experiencing in this day and time, 40 years later after the Dream. They listen to propagandists to get the script for the day then they try very hard to change the subject because they know they cannot debate you on any subject without their script. The fact that these tricksters have now been successful in twisting what is reality, is extremely disturbing and have given me a view or glimpse into why a group of people develop “herd mentality” and could follow a Jim Jones, a Racists , a Hitler , Rwanda rebels and many others who have a sick and warped mind or thinking processes. The non-racist remained silent knowing they have a moral responsibility to stand up and say, No, this interpretation of what occurred in the Black Church is not what you say it is. After seeing the non-racist and racist alike successfully wage a campaign against Rev. Wright and the Father by twisting the sermons and illustration of how superior one’s thinking processes work , it has become clear to me how many could follow a deceiver.
These two preachers in their style of painting a vivid picture of the travesties and pain inflicted on the targeted race and their experiences is now called the racist themselves. The Messenger is the Racist? This is got to be considered one of the greatest FARCE in American History. I ask again, how is it that the messenger who conveys racist behavior, describes it, acts it out in front of the targeted race is now consider stirring up trouble or inflammatory remarks? What is inflammatory is that which the messenger is describing! Sticking your head in the sand, pretending that racism has disappeared and prohibiting one to discuss what the targeted race faces in different ways, does not make the messenger himself a racist!
Presidential candidate Obama should have not bowed to the tricksters plot. By bowing he is now entered into a sphere that has tangled webs in which he will always be in a position to appease the ones who seek to control him.
BTW, Those of you working in places that have the ability to launch retaliation against me for continuing to sound the alarm and blowing the whistle and exposing what is happening, does not go unnoticed and soon it will also be exposed, so back off. If man does not stand up for mankind and his posterity while he or her is living then the DASH between birth and death would mean nothing.
You see I come from a people who lived in a time where they were pressed down on every side but survived to bring me here at this point and time. And while you are denigrated the Black Church they taught me one thing! There is a God that sits high and looks low. You do not want to mess with a Child of God! We are more than conquerors and we are not defined by those racist who would seek to harm me physically and financially by cutting off my gas to heat my home and water as well as closing the account, terminating my car insurance and making me pay more usury fees because of the law or withdrawing my child from school because you have the power to do so, or stopping my family while driving everyday for no reason.
You see we are either entering a storm, in the middle of a storm or coming out of a storm and while I may stumble because of the blows you launch, you will see one set of footsteps in the sand because God will never put more on me than I can bear. My conscience will not allow me to remain silent any longer while the few racist in the 10% part of society make it seem that Blacks in American and Whites in America do not love each other like brothers and sisters. We do love each other like Brothers and Sisters! We eat, work, laugh, pray, play, love and fight together every day and the few racist who seek to paint another picture of what the American experiences when it comes to interaction with each other is not enough to change this reality.
What I describe in anything I write is a few who would seek to reverse time and the progresses we have achieved. The last frontier where the Dream has not been realized is in the area of Laws that shift depending on who it is the law is being applied to, Policies that companies can choose to enforce or not enforce, Credit Scoring system whose own formula is a secret where there is no transparencies, high unnecessary Taxes , the continued ignorance of the Acorn report, loan sharking fees for the people who are unable to get out of a financial sphere they find themselves in and scoring system ensures they stay in, the high interest rates and High insurance rates, the Industrial prison demographic make-up, the inner city cold cases verses and it’s high rate of murder and shelter availability for people of color. The lack of transparency in SOL testing and other testing that would score our children however not let you have the test back to see the actual questions they supposedly got wrong. Where there is no transparency there is opportunity for people who are corrupt and not honest to manipulate reports and statistic. Remember Tuskegee?

hammerhead : "Being that it was born again local poltical expediency that led Rip VanObama to this church in the first place,it is no surprise,now that a much more diverse constituency is being courted,that his real core belief in political expediency has produced yet another conversion for Mr Rip VanObama.
But in all fairness after that long 20 year slumber in which he never heard a word of it,things were bound to be different when he awoke."

HOW WITTY!

Being that it was born again local poltical expediency that led Rip VanObama to this church in the first place,it is no surprise,now that a much more diverse constituency is being courted,that his real core belief in political expediency has produced yet another conversion for Mr Rip VanObama.
But in all fairness after that long 20 year slumber in which he never heard a word of it,things were bound to be different when he awoke.

Actually Mr Obama's current beliefs hail from the church of political expediency.

For Mr. and Mrs. Obama's benefit:

As noted many times:

"No, I do not suffer from Obsessive, Compulsive, Behavioral, Disorder.

What I and most of the other hominids to include yourself suffer from is the Three B Syndrome i.e being Bred, Born and Brainwashed in religions that are based on hallucinations, myths, embellishments and lies. And what is almost hilarious about this is how we have bought into these fictional "pretty wingie thingie" stories for so long.

The "fems" (flaws, errors, muck and stench) of the various religions are now known.

We await someone to clean up Islam. The clean-up of Judaism and Christianity is well on its way.

CCNL, you might like to google the term Obsessive Compulsive Disorder and read up the information on the NIMH & Wikipedia links among others.

A slogan taken from Senator Obama's new religious views:

"No one is safe until the koran is deflawed and mosques are "febrezed!!!!!!

Concerned The Christian Now Liberated :

Hmmm, apparently some faster scrolling "mice" are needed.

Recommendation: Logitech MX620 / MX 620 Cordless Laser Mouse w/ Hyper-fast scroll wheel: 910-000240 - xpcgear.com/mx620cm.html

"Revolutionary hyper-fast scroll wheel: Fly through long documents at hyperspeed with the nearly frictionless alloy scroll wheel. Shift to precise, click-to-click scrolling for navigating lists, slides, and image collections.
Laser precision: Experience pixel-perfect precision and smoother cursor control on virtually all surfaces.* "

June 6, 2008 6:33 PM

The first *useful* comment CCNL has posted in nineteen months!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks a million CCNL! You have surprised us with that redeeming feature in you. All is not lost and hopeless, eh? Just keep to such useful comments in the future and you'll be alright.

Sorry but taxes were more not less progrssive after the Bush tax cuts. So how is it that the rich got all the benefits.

If you are in the current ten percent tax bracket you will after those tax cuts go the way of the Dodo
you will be in the 15% tax bracket meaning your taxes just went up by 50%. Joe Blow Richguy's taxes went up a comparatively paltry 15% or so. So who's going to take the big hit?

Hmmm, apparently some faster scrolling "mice" are needed.

Recommendation: Logitech MX620 / MX 620 Cordless Laser Mouse w/ Hyper-fast scroll wheel: 910-000240 - xpcgear.com/mx620cm.html

"Revolutionary hyper-fast scroll wheel: Fly through long documents at hyperspeed with the nearly frictionless alloy scroll wheel. Shift to precise, click-to-click scrolling for navigating lists, slides, and image collections.
Laser precision: Experience pixel-perfect precision and smoother cursor control on virtually all surfaces.* "

ONE WHO KNOWS - what and who are you referring to? And since your English is slightly impaired, I'm wondering if, nationally speaking, you might be of a foreign derivative. Imagine an American trying to speak Chinese, for example. Good luck with that!

You should, in all fairness, clarify your posts so that others might analyze and comment -

PS. Your English is really quite good - but your thoughts remain mysterious.

HAMMERHEAD :
Obama's abandonment of his nebulous faith in favor of clinging to his self-aggrandizing quest speaks volumes.

Speaks volumes about “cowardness” turn the back and run like hell while blaming the wrongs done on someone else.

1.breaking and entering and immature bragging about it, telling “everything on table is in place”
2.addictive behavior
3.hatred
4.spreading lies to others about others
5.gossiping about private matters with criticisms
6.lying in wait to see a person fall that you try and set up to fall
7.taking pride in another failures
8.hacking an electronic device
9.invading privacy
10.immature bragging about sexual encounters
11.immature gossiping about the body parts of one you had sexual encounters with
12.always finding fault
13.with holding gratitude, appreciation, acceptance, and communication
14.ANGRY ALL THE TIME

Sound familiar?

Obama's abandonment of his nebulous faith in favor of clinging to his self-aggrandizing quest speaks volumes.

CCNL, OK. So you are not a scholar. We just must get a little more efficient at scrolling past your comment.

Hmmm, only nineteen months of thumping the Reality and Truth about contemporary religions? Christians and Muslims have been thumping the bible and koran for centuries. There is a lot of catching up to do. Deal with it!!!!

For Mr. and Mrs. Obama's eyes only as they decide whether to join another church:

The "fems" (flaws, errors, muck and stench) of the major religions:

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was either the embellishment of the lives of three different men or a mythical character as was Moses, the "Tablet-Man" who talked to burning bushes and made much magic in Egypt.

Many of the 1.5 million Conservative Jews and many of their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT.

The muck and stench in Judaism you ask?

Belief that that the Jews are god's chosen people and its resulting consequences.
simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

2. Jesus was an illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter/simple preacher man who suffered from hallucinations and who has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics. earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

For added "pizzazz", Catholic/Christian theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "filicider".

The muck and stench of Catholicism you ask?

Pedophiliac priests, atonement theology and original sin!!!!

3. Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingie thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

The muck and stench of non-Catholic Christian churches you ask?

Adulterous preachers, "propheteering/ profiteering" evangelicals and atonement theology. .

4. Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, who also had embellishing/hallucinating/ plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the assassination of Bhutto, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/ mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.

And who funds this muck and stench of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

The muck and stench of Islam you ask?

The Sunni-Shiite blood feud and the warmongering , womanizing, hallucinating founder.

5. Hinduism (from an online Hindu site) - "Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centered and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’."

The caste/laborer system and cow worship/reverence are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism."

The muck and stench of Hinduism you ask?

The caste system and cow worship/reverence.

6. Buddhism- "Buddhism began in India about 500 years before the birth of Christ. The people living at that time had become disillusioned with certain beliefs of Hinduism including the caste system, which had grown extremely complex. The number of outcasts (those who did not belong to any particular caste) was continuing to grow."
"However, in Buddhism, like so many other religions, fanciful stories arose concerning events in the life of the founder, Siddhartha Gautama (fifth century B.C.):"

Archaeological discoveries have proved, beyond a doubt, his historical character, but apart from the legends we know very little about the circumstances of his life. e.g. Buddha by one legend was supposedly talking when he came out of his mother's womb.

Bottom line: Mr. and Mrs. Obama, there are many good ways of living but be aware of the hallucinations, embellishments, lies, muck, stench and myths surrounding the founders and foundations of said rules of life.

We have a policy of sparating church and state in this nation. His religious practices, short of satanism or human sacrifice, should not have been discussed. I did not see them mentioned for the other candidates. The candidate was raised in white America and the multicultural island of Hawaii. His half sister is Asian. How can he possibly be considered a racist extremist like Reverend Wright. The entire issues was a tempest in a teapot. I am just pleased that he attends church.

He can leave the church but I hope he has not left the faith. He is welcome at my church, The National Cathedral, any time he wishes to join.

CCNL, given you are a scholar, why not prove it by answering only the question at hand instead of putting your reputation at risk with endless copy-paste of the same comments you prepared for this forum nineteen months ago?

CCNL:

WE REALLY HAVE TRIED EVERYTING, AND I MEAN EVERYTHING TO LET YOU KNOW WE DON'T WANT TO SEE YOUR ENDLESS LISTS. THERE HAVE BEEN COMMENTS, POETRY, DIRECT REMARKS TO YOU, ETC.

GO TO MALAYSIA AND FIND JIHADIST. GO ANYWHERE BUT HERE. IF YOU WANT TO POST AT THE LEVEL YOU SEE HERE, FINE. OTHERWISE GO JOIN JJ.

ONE MORE JJ TYPE POST AND I'M ON IT. YOU'RE SPAMMING BIGOTRY AND STUPIDITY, AND YOU'RE TAKING UP TOO MUCH SPACE.

YOU'RE SPAMMING.

GET IT?!!

DEAL WITH IT!!!

CCNL, considering you are a scholar of sorts, why not restrict your comments to the question posed?

An update (or how we are spending or how we have spent USA taxpayers’ money to eliminate global terror and aggression)

The terror and aggression as measured via a Partial and Recent Body Count

1) Assassination of Benazir Bhutto

2) 9/11, 3000 mostly US citizens, 1000’s injured

3) The 24/7 Sunni-Shiite centuries-old blood feud currently being carried out in Iraq, 4056 US troops and 84,328 – 92,004
Iraqi civilians. iraqbodycount.org/

4) Kenya- In Nairobi, about 212 people were killed and an estimated 4000 injured; in Dar es Salaam, the attack killed at least 11 and wounded 85.

5) Bali-in 2002-killing 202 people, 164 of whom were foreign nationals, and 38 Indonesian citizens. A further 209 people were injured.

6) Bali in 2005- Twenty people were killed, and 129 people were injured by three bombers who killed themselves in the attacks.

7) Spain in 2004- killing 191 people and wounding 2,050.

8) UK in 2005- The bombings killed 52 commuters and the four radical Islamic suicide bombers, injured 700.

Other elements of our War on Terror:

1. Saddam, his sons and major henchmen have been deleted. Saddam's bravado about WMD was one of his major mistakes.

2. Iran is being been contained. (beside containing the Sunni-Shiite civil war in Baghdad, that is the main reason we are in Iraq. And yes, essential oil continues to flow from the region.)

3. Libya has become almost civil. Apparently this new reality from an Islamic country has upset OBL and his “crazies” as they recently threatened Libya. OBL sure is a disgrace to the world especially the Moslem world!!!

4. North Korea is still uncivil but is contained. With the opening up of rail traffic between North and South Korea after 50 years and with the assistance of the US Navy in retrieving NK ships and personnel, a fresh sense of civility is afoot. One of the most eminent US cultural institutions, the New York Philharmonic Orchestra, has performed a landmark concert in North Korea.

The concert included music by Western composers and a Korean folk song, and was broadcast live on local television.

Unfortunately, North Korea’s apparent move toward peace did not last long as they fired test missiles recently and threatened South Korea with military action.

5. Northern Ireland is finally at peace.

6. The Jews and Palestinians are being separated by walls. Hopefully the walls will follow the 1948 UN accords and the Annapolis Peace Conference is at least somewhat successful.

7. Bin Laden has been cornered under a rock in Western Pakistan since 9/11.

8. Fanatical Islam has basically been contained to the Middle East but a wall between India and Pakistan would be a plus for world peace. Ditto for a wall between Afghahistan and Pakistan.

9.Timothy McVeigh was executed. Terry Nichols will follow soon.

10. Eric Rudolph is spending three life terms in prison with no parole.

11. Jim Jones, David Koresh, Kaczynski, the "nuns" from Rwanda, and the KKK were all dealt with and either eliminated themselves or are being punished.

12. Islamic Sudan, Darfur and Somalia are still terror hot spots.

13. The terror and torture of Muslims in Bosnia, Kosovo and Kuwait were ended by the proper application of the military forces of the USA and her freedom-loving friends.

14. And of course the bloody terror and aggression brought about the Japanese, Nazis and Communists was with great difficulty eliminated by the good guys.

Should he have resigned?
Before or after it's core beliefs were first exposed to the light of day?

Should Barack Obama have resigned from his church?

Unfortunately Barack Obama resigning from his church is just another indication of where American society is heading these days. It seems whether one is right wing or left it makes no difference. The masses in American society have been uplifted all they can be uplifted and what we have is the increasing phenomenon of systems which evaluate a person's potential for getting to elite status. Everything from the justice system to universities to Hollywood to sports teams is an increasingly fine net which sifts for particular talents and intellectual abilities, and if one is not so lucky as to be born with a valuable ability one is consigned for life to third rate status. America might speak of democracy but all revolution is over. A system is increasingly being put in place which is more durable than any type of political system before--more durable against a revolt by the masses.

We have a true meritocratic system being born which is above left and right and increasingly beyond racism and sexism, but it would be foolish to overlook what will be lost, what belief systems consigned to the rubbish bin of history. For example we all are told no particular religion should dominate in U.S. society, that we should embrace religious pluralism.--In essence be opposed to any sort of religious totalitarianism. But that is the death of religion, a choking on one's own privacy, and religion essentially for nothing but consoling the masses who are born third rate from the womb in comparison to the elite that get to make it to Harvard or Hollywood. Another happy fantasy destined for the rubbish heap is the left wing one of uplifting the masses by socialistic means. We are told by those holding this fantasy that eventually world poverty can be eradicated and that third world nations can reach first world status. What we are not told is exactly what it means to be uplifted when precisely in current first world nations we have an increasing political order which sifts the masses for prospects for the elite.

Essentially the political order which is coming into being in first world nations is the order which takes as its inspiration biology, Darwin, and is the desire to improve on evolution by first scrutinizing the masses for human potential and sending the cream of the crop to elite universities, and then ramping up the genetic sciences for an increased efficiency at getting at elite human beings. Consider it a combination of right wing business trends and the left wing emphasis on secularism and science. What falls away is the right wing trend on religion (all religion whether of the right or left first giving way to religious pluralism and then irrelevance) and the left wing hope in a happy socialistic society. And to be absolutely clear and to make no mistake in communicating with the reader let me say what we have is a war concerning notions of progress finally giving way to progress understood as continually getting at the elite, even if this makes most people obsolete before they even get out of the womb.

In other words, religious notions of progress and history are perishing. So is the socialistic notion of progress and of course communism. We have increasingly triumphant the biological, Darwinistic notion of progress, this biological notion of progress triumphant not just because of evidence of evolution, but because we humans seem capable of improving on it, selecting ourselves, improving on our future genetically. Barack Obama might be a black man and seem the hope of the masses in general, but he is the product of an elite university--actually has demonstrated himself genetically worthy of the elite--and far from being for the masses (no matter if he does deludedly think so) he is for the system I speak of increasingly coming into being. This is not to say McCain is any better. What I am saying is that it makes little difference whether one votes right or left in America today. What does make a difference is if one is born with the intellect to make it to Harvard (or that one has some other outstanding ability). If one does not have ability one is consigned to third rate status and with no consolation but television and God, etc.

All that remains to be added is that we can expect increased tension between first world nations and the rest as religion breaks down and it becomes apparent that for all socialistic methods the masses can be elevated only so much. In fact it becomes apparent that for all overcoming of poverty the masses are not being elevated at all, only born into a system which looks upon them as third rate, in fact obsolete compared to the elite humans being plucked more and more from the masses every day. Elevated from poverty only to see the rare neighbor rocket to glorious success while one has only a...job.

But at least we will probably have the first black president....

Waging a war by cutting taxes seems counterproductive, until you realize that the rich were the ones that made the big gains.

The Bush tax cut will expire, captital gains taxes will increase, and the middle class/working class will remain relatively where they are. Am I going to miss an extra 7-8 hundred bucks a year that I gained with Bush? Or will I remember a trillion bucks for Iraq? Hmmmm.... with gas prices the way they are, we can bet with certainty there won't be any tax increases on the lower 90%......

Global warming is complex. Peruse en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_warming.

Hillary Clinton is not as complicated. Peruse
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillary_Rodham_Clinton and en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Hillary_Rodham_Clinton

Neither is Barak Obama. Peruse
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama and en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Barack_Obama

Neither is John McCain. Peruse
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McCain and
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_John_McCain

Now we can all vote !!!!

My bad multiply the number by 100.

Obama's website promises us 3.5 billion in new spending.

The Democrats are already talking about raising everyone's taxes. With the sharpest rise set for those in the current ten percent group set to go back to 15% when the Bush tax cuts expire. Do You really think the poorest American Taxpayers can afford to see their taxes raised by a whopping 50%?

And with democratic policies on energy Americans will begin to find themselves having to choose between paying their taxes or having enough food and gas to meet their daily needs.

While we can't be absolutely certain of Obama, we can damn sure be certain about McCain - he's told us the unvarnished truth about himself often enough, one way and another. He likes George Bush just fine and plans to stay the course in Iraq for the foreseeable future.....surely 4 more years should be enough to win it! Maybe he can bring back Feith, Wolfowitz, Perles, et al for the runup to Iran......

Beyond that, he's definitely got the potential to be a willing tool of the far right in even more extreme measure than Bush himself - he's got Karl Rove advising him as we speak....this is now public knowledge thanks to that mightly bastion of corrupt media posturing & pandering, Fox News itself.

McCain never has and never will have the capacity to lead this nation anywhere but down the same road to ruin that we've marching along for the past 8 years - 'the more things change the more things stay the same' should really be McCain's campaign slogen....it really rings true.

Speaking of leftists, virtually every reasonable person that now objects to the war in Iraq is to the left of McCain, so that makes for a very sizable bunch of lefties indeed - what is this world coming too?

More claptrap from the Obamanators.

We know essentially nothing of Obama's character and his life. His associates for good or ill help you determine something of a man's character. His statements regarding these men - to wit: That's not the (fill in name of your choice)I knew -tell us one of two things. Either he is an out and out liar or the worst judge of Character seeking the US Presidency sense Ulysses S Grant.

NO he should not have had to quit his church. Unfortunately, there is still a majority of crazy people in this country that associates his church and him unfairly. I haven't posted on this site for over a year because it has been hijacked by too many of those nut jobs like CCNL who write paragraphs of bull. There is no good discussion here any longer just preaching. Do you really think that anyone of sane mind reads this garbage any longer. I have written WAPO to express my frustration. However, they are correct in saying that these people need to get a life other than here. SAD

every damage probably them. I know friends and began to actually his still there.

Should Barack Obama have resigned from his church?

Avoiding exposing the mis-information campaign and twisted lies today will hurt all of us later, except this time the targeted race will be forced to defend something Obama should have fought and deconstructed exactly what happened. Instead Obama went along with the crowd like herd mentality and now every newspaper we read, every radios station repeat the lie over and over again as if the lie is true!
No, absolutely not! Obama can’t possible know what it feels like to go to school and love you brother despite injustices they face when they go home by society. The fact that the RepulicanDEM or DemRepulican, Elite, have mores and /or 10% are cunning, master trickster and are effective at driving the public discussion and debate to undermine anyone who they target as a threat is most certainly a cover-up at Biblical proportions. This fact, is ignored by mainstream media so often that it has become a matter of routine or 2nd nature with little or no consequences. Take a look at how many leaders and public servants have been marginalized or rendered ineffective by these tricksters who will make what happen in reality seem irrelevant then turn in the opposite direction from reality to hide what the real issues are. Their goal is to prevent the real issues or subjects from getting any traction, attention and the marginalized public spokesman , from having any power or influence to expose their own weakness or bring about change to help the greater society. These master tricksters now have around the clock propaganda radio stations and TV stations that have become their single mouthpiece and brains. The rest of the media follow by participating in “Group Think Mentality”. It is a disgrace and disappointing to watch the same old subversive behavior by these tyrants. The two Preachers are at the center of attention rather than the issues the American people are facing today. Wake up! We have no fuel to heat our homes and heat the water! We put 3 gallons in our tank for $15.00. Americans cannot continue to pay $900 one month to the GAS companies to heat their homes and $600.00 the very next month. To fix this we disconnected our LAN line phones and disconnected the gas for hot water and heat. Meanwhile the propagandist or trickster is telling it’s followers to sacrifice while the smoke a pipe with their feet on the desk spewing twisted information all day. This can’t be good for the businesses. At some point, there will be a reversal where Americans will begin to distinguish between needs and wants again! Now of course, the tricksters are purposely twisting and distorting what is occurring in Black Church in order to cover up the injustices the people are facing daily like paying high taxes before we get our paycheck after we get our paycheck and on every thing we buy. The 28% interest we face when purchasing cars. The tool of the Devil “fico score” that is able to mark a race of people then having a charge for the darker race while the privilege pay another fee like 0% interest rate. This latest twisted information and mis information campaign waged against the Black Church is done to render Barack OBAMA ineffective and add him to the swiftboated, CynthiaMckennth , RonBrown, Dean’s passionate expression blacklists by ridiculing and repeating a lie such as “inflammatory remarks” so often that many believe it is true. Meanwhile these cunning tricksters spew their hate , their lies and propaganda from sun up to sun down then punt to Fox News that night so that they have around the clock lies being sent into the public airwaves. These perpetrators use words like “inflammatory remarks” to try to describe what the two preachers did in their place of worship. The fact that the most segregated time in America is on Sundays in church is a known fact; however, not one of these followers or tricksters take the time to get at the root or cause. We live in a society where free speech is sacred however, now we know that it only applies to those who believe they are the Superior ones. These two preachers sounded the alarm on many different issues that our society today have to deal with and these cunning tricksters just do not want discussed in the public arena. Why? Hillary says “ You know Bobbie was assassinated in June” then the response is “Hilary with her superior attitude believes she is entitled” This desperate remark by Hilary could only be interpreted that way and it offended the darker ones and lighter ones following Obama. Of course, that didn’t matter did it? So you proceed to shoot the messenger! Twisted! We have a chance in history to heal wounds and the hurt expose the ones who are capitalizing on usury fees and loansharking fees and rate hikes and fees to put money in the bank and fees to take money out of the bank while they vote themselves a raise in the midnight hour. We have a chance to stop the dangerous ridicule that these cunning trickster spew on the Radio daily however, it seems this is not the GOAL of those who are the spokesperson for the news. How is it that the Preacher who sounds an alarm, or shakeup or stir up issues is communicating “inflammatory remarks” and is called a racist? Why do you feel the need to apologize for the truth? Why are you allowing them to characterize what is said in a twisted almost dumbfounded way? What the messenger is communicating is the injustices the congregation is facing. The reality of what the congregation faces daily is far worse than so called inflammatory remark which is a farce however, those who would do such a thing is not the target. The target is the recipient of the non transparent practice of the Jim Crow laws and black laws disguised as something else. The preacher gives the roadmap on how to keep a positive attitude when you are being nailed to the cross or experiencing injustices, such as the Acorn report published every year with little to know discussion. The preachers construct a message by telling a story, then he exposes the deep wounds one may feel real or perceived, and at the end he says you are more than a conquer and trust in GOD. The trickster plays sound bites with four words then go about their propaganda then make a race of people apologize to the trickster him or herself for what their ancestors and themselves did to the recipent today or in the past. Twisted! The preachers says to consider what God would do or make the right choices or God will make a way out of no way. Barack did a great disservice to Black America by bowing down to the twisted interpretation of what happened and pandering to the trickster. Yes, there is a Twoism of America and many die of heart attacks early by holding this in. Sunday is where you can communicate this then give tools on how to make another week. They are as equally critical of the common man and his faults! it is twisted and warped to characterize what happened as inflammatory remarks. How is it that hanging a Black man by a rope is inflaming you? If it is inflaming you what do you think the descendant of the hung man deals with or the reality of the demograpic of the industrial prison population? What happens when laws and support systems for one type of drug prefered and systems if that is the preference of the lighter one and another set of laws for the darker ones? It could be probation for one group and 50 years for the other. Then you are so “angry” that you develop three strikes and you are out yet Enron keeps all 5 mansions while school teachers pensions are lost! Oh yeah! That does not matter! What matters is that your feelings were hurt in the process of communicating the realities of life. So called Inflammatory remarks is translated to really mean, telling the truth about racism and discussing the Twoism of America and the privileged attitudes toward these descendants of slaves as well as the truth of our ugly history was not as important as hurting the feelings of the so called scared lighter Americans. So instead of fighting for the people who are the recipient of what is being discussed , once again, the descendant of slaves are told your feelings don’t matter only the so called privileged one’s feelings matter, so you force Obama to apologize and the Father apologize thereby making us all once again subservient to the privileged. Now the Church and it’s Preacher are denigrated and made a mockery so as to squash any notion of self-reliance and individualism and because you chose not to debate we are forced to defend daily. Once again, the descendants of slaves, recipient of Jim Crow and Black laws are told nothing (former three fifth of a person/property) that concerns you or what you face or what you feel matters! All that matters is the privileged feelings. We say slavery was awful and was equally as awful of what you faced and he is scorned for believing his people suffered greatly? Any discussion of our past history is Taboo now. All other groups of people who faced travesties in life are celebrated and never forgotten however, the darker one has no right to discuss how this affect them today. The tricksters defines the author of Million man march as the household N word that is supposed to be code word to mean “your race is subservient to the privileged.” This author has ideas that do not line up with the tricksters and in reality line up almost perfectly. They claim the descendants of slaves are lazy. Twisted! They dance around the race issues and make a mockery of anyone who dare mention what happened less than 40 years ago as well as what they face today. The leaders are mocked in the same way as the word “Boy” and “N word” was used. These same tricksters go back the next day to their radio stations and fox news doing the very thing that they condemned the Preachers of doing and the audience who clapped to say, Yes we know exactly what you are describing because we were hurt deeply that Clinton, anyone except for Clinton, would even bring up the notion that Obama could suffer the same fate as Bobby. Wake up! Yes, we suffered greatly however, why would the non racist side with racist folks and be offend when many lighter or white folks risk life and limb to help their darker brother. Instead the racist and non racist got mad because they were scolded like a father would do his child and they did not like it. So like a rebellious child the lighter ones cried foul led by the Tricksters and not we are the racist. Tell me how is it that the communicator or messenger of the results of racism and people who think more highly of themselves then the ought is not considered the racist? The messenger is not the racist. Twisted.

Senator Obama *had* to resign because media attention became focussed on the content of his pastor's sermons for twenty years, including the racistically charged political theatrics of a guest Catholic priest who happened to preach in his church. Obama needed to remind voters about the need to judge his candidacy based on *his* life, *his* values and *his* vision for the country, even if *his (ex) pastor didn't qualify to run for President.*

God/Jesus does not dwell exclusively in the building of the church which Obama attended. Obama can continue to be a Christian even though he has parted ways with a particular Christian community which had to sacrifice its privacy and become a place for media circus and scrutiny for his sake.

Senator Obama's decision was both personal and political.

The debacle has become a blessing in diguise for his (ex) church. It has opened the way for an open and public conversation on race, exposed the downside of a particular kind of black liberation which is anti-white, based on victimhood and stuck in past grievances alone... The door has been opened for a sweeping change in attitude both among the blacks and whites. Obama being half-white and half-black is ideally suited to keeping that door of dialogue open for real and lasting healing. As the President of the US he would have more power to contribute to that healing than he would have had as a member of a particular church alone.

Thomas that is simply silly. His church his quitting same his associations with Resco and Aires more than anything else reveals a typical leftist politician of the USA. To that degree they are worth noting. To opt to ignore those things is to place one's head firmly in the sand.

That is his decision, it is not and should not be any of our business, wasn't this one of the things that this country was supposedly founded upon?

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

This matters only because Obama, even after this long campaign, is still largely an unknown. He, in fact, seems to have planned it that way. Unfortunately when nut bars pop out of his background as they have at his now ex church, one of the boards he sits on, and his buddy Resco, people begin to put two and two together with results that don't favor Obama.

The notion that somehow absent much other information all these other things should somehow be off limits is absurd.

Should Senator Obama have quit his church?

Frankly, I don't think it is any of my business, or yours, or the media's. I believe Obama has the right of religious affiliation same as the rest of us, even though we are not running for President. It is a pity and a shame that such a stink is raised over things he has no control over, but people are going to act like that.

Confidential to Concerned The Christian: Good luck to you! If you look at yourself as critically as you seem to look at opinions on major religions, you should come out all right in the end.

Haven't we flogged this expired equine enough? Give it a rest, already! I'm sure that there are other things to talk about besides Obama and his faith!

Should Senator Obama have quit his church? Yes.

These dog and pony shows are invigorating on a level, but given this churches high profile because of the Senators candidacy, it’s gotten out of hand. The burden of notoriety has been a heady brew that has distorted the communities purpose and mission. Churches are communities, and places of worship. When they become overly politicized centers where theater and ridicule are at the forefront of teaching and worship, then, yes!

He should not have had to resign, but because the media and all of the politicians who made his church affiliation a big deal, he had no choice. It is ludicrous to blame President to Be Obama for the words of another man. Who doesn't have that speak-his-own mind uncle we get a little embarrassed by, but we still love him.

Obama and his wife like all of us need to step back and reveiw the "fems" (flaws, errors, muck and stench) before choosing a new church/religion.

For those eyes that have not seen, a synopsis of said "fems":

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was either the embellishment of the lives of three different men or a mythical character as was Moses, the "Tablet-Man" who talked to burning bushes and made much magic in Egypt.

Many of the 1.5 million Conservative Jews and many of their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT.

The muck and stench in Judaism you ask?

Belief that that the Jews are god's chosen people and its resulting consequences.
simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

2. Jesus was an illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter/simple preacher man who suffered from hallucinations and who has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics. earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

For added "pizzazz", Catholic/Christian theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "filicider".

The muck and stench of Catholicism you ask?

Pedophiliac priests, atonement theology and original sin!!!!

3. Luther, Calvin, Joe Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty, gay?, wingie thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

The muck and stench of non-Catholic Christian churches you ask?

Adulterous preachers, "propheteering/ profiteering" evangelicals and atonement theology. .

4. Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing (11 wives), lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, who also had embellishing/hallucinating/ plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added gay(?) "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the assassination of Bhutto, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/ mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.

And who funds this muck and stench of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

The muck and stench of Islam you ask?

The Sunni-Shiite blood feud and the warmongering , womanizing, hallucinating founder.

5. Hinduism (from an online Hindu site) - "Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centered and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’."
The caste/laborer system and cow worship/reverence are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism."

The muck and stench of Hinduism you ask?

The caste system and cow worship/reverence.

6. Buddhism- "Buddhism began in India about 500 years before the birth of Christ. The people living at that time had become disillusioned with certain beliefs of Hinduism including the caste system, which had grown extremely complex. The number of outcasts (those who did not belong to any particular caste) was continuing to grow."
"However, in Buddhism, like so many other religions, fanciful stories arose concerning events in the life of the founder, Siddhartha Gautama (fifth century B.C.):"

Archaeological discoveries have proved, beyond a doubt, his historical character, but apart from the legends we know very little about the circumstances of his life. e.g. Buddha by one legend was supposedly talking when he came out of his mother's womb.

Bottom line: There are many good ways of living but be aware of the hallucinations, embellishments, lies, muck, stench and myths surrounding the founders and foundations of said rules of life.