Readers’ Responses to Our Question (54)

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Another take on Evangelicalism's Essence
The four known forces of the universe; gravity, electromagnetism, both the strong and weak nuclear forces, are all facets and limited expressions of the one, ultimate unifying force, which is love. Evangelicals posit, by faith, a reasonable faith, yet still faith, that the resurrection of Jesus testifies to the reality that love is stronger than even than the anti-force(s) of sin (unlove) and death. Good news - the universe is, ultimately therefore, a friendly place. The kinks and flaws of reality as we know it have their origin in some humanly induced or triggered relational fracture with the source of love. The Christian hope is that the whole of the Jesus event, began, and continually sustains, an ongoing move of healing that fracture in human history. The dynamism of the good news is that complete healing is inevitable though our individual responses to the force of love (Holy Spirit)collectively determine the pace. There will one day be a completely new and transformed moral/relational/physical reality of genuine perfection and harmony.

Daniel -- please edit.

You're using 100 words where 10 will do.

It's not flattering to do so.

An evangelical is a "propheteering" profiteer typically thumping the bible or koran.

Evangelical is someone who believes Jesus as personal savior and He is the son of God and died for our sins and rose from he dead, who believe the bible. It is not just a belief but a transformation of life through the personal relationship with Jesus Christ and the understanding of the Bible. Therefore, the life he lives and the decision he makes is based on the Truth he found in Jesus Christ and in His Word.

Ahmed,

First, your answers to the following are ???

Your reference supporting your contention that 70 million Americans believe the Jews are God's chosen people is ????????

How goes that Five Step Program for Deflawing Islam which itself has some "better than thou" issues????

Second,

The lobbyists for the Arab countries have significantly more influence in Washington because of their wealth and oil reserves.

And as you continually forget, the US with significant assistance from NATO and the UN freed Muslim Kosovo, Bosnia and Kuwait from Christian and also Islamic terrorists.

Two popes ago, the pope floated a "pious opinion" reported in the news media. He opined that Judaism was a salvatory religion, and that the church should not be evangelizing Jews. Subsequent popes seem not to have thought much of the pious opinion, or we have not heard whether they still hold it.

The point is that Judaism was considered "salvatory", a point most Evangelicals would vigorously dispute (no salvation apart from Jesus, etc.).

Many Jews have a high opinion of Jesus as a Teacher of Wisdom, healer, charismatic leader, founder of a lasting movement, mystic, and prophet against the social order of his time. We have not been equally pleased with the nature of the "evangelizing" that has been directed our way.

Poste Cristo

C if u can stomach this:

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/04252008/watch.html

U obviously don't have a clue about your own backyard! Do some research ma man. How do you think Bush got elected the second term? Did the natives vote for him or the blacks?

Concerned aka Ostrich. Why is it that no politician can address this simple issue of ADL and AIPAC having so much clout over your government. Whose interests they serve? US or Israel or do you think there is no difference between the two?

Please be specific in your answer and try for once to avoid cut and paste of your ever boring stuff. Stick to the issue if you can can, otherwise keep your peace if you can overcome your prejudices??

Ahmed,

Your reference supporting your contention that 70 million Americans believe the Jews are God's chosen people is ????????

How goes that Five Step Program for Deflawing Islam which itself has some "better than thou" issues????

Steven we haven't right rule for the last seven years sorry to say we have had left light. A Medicare prescrition drug benefit which over time will make the money we spend on Iraq seem like chump change by comparison if it hasn't already. A school bill that was essentially written by Ted Kennedy, and four of the eight years the congress was held in whole or in part by the party of the left.

Here is a website which is highly recommended for anyone who wants to hear counter-balance to Evangelists aka doomsday sayers who believe in Armageddon and thus fight to ship all Jews to Israel so that JC appears quicker than intended. They want to give God a helping hand and their believe by destroying God's Creation they will achieve the final prophesy. They most read Schofield's Bible which has margin notes confirming that Jews are God's Chosen People and Israel as a Zionist State.

This very belief is held by some 70 million Americans and has just been mouthed by Bush in Israeli parliament. He referred to them as "The Chosen People", thus confirming what I have said above.

Look no further for the problems you have caused the world. Here is the American website as promised:

http://whtt.org/

We are ALL Chosen Human Beings. No one is superior above another. Try using that as your foreign policy and motto to live by. Peace and love.

Politicians speak of values, personal, cultural, and that is fine. Voters reject them at their discretion, and that is also fine. One man's supposed rejection of religious values is merely a vote of no confidence nothing more.

GaryD, thanks for your response, I know it wasn't an easy question, but neither was it easy to read about the "left" shoveling s..t at someone for 50 years. (Especially given the last 7 years of "right" rule--it seems to me one would have to watch a lot of Fox news to see our current mess as a conspiracy and result of the "left.")

What about the bad consequences we might suffer from some one else's actions? Where is there a place for government in there?

Do you really argue that because the government has prohibited me from certain actions as an individual, I therefore engage and desire to engage in those actions more? That the government, trying to establish some rules for individuals in society will inadvertently be creating creatures whose desire is to live to break those rules?

Do you not see any utility in a government to serve as a body of representation to a greater number of people--to reflect their societal values, to serve as a device to create and maintain public utilities, to centralize the protection of our borders? (And I shudder to add, given your seeming difficulty with the "left," a place for government to serve as some sort of minimum safety-net to help people who are unable to help themselves--do you know any such people?)

The problems I see with "get rid of the government" political ideologies are legion, but primarily having to do with the consequential meltdown of individual rights and their protection. Do you think the southern states, without the "incentive" of a central government, would have ever given up slavery?

I concede these are difficult questions, but your position of "let's starve the beast" would have to include your own political "right" party as well, so it might begin with some consideration of that.

The "right," so to speak, has grown the beast over the last several administrations much more than the "left," and much much more of the shoveling has been from our own "values" party in my recent memory.

Soja John Thaikattil

As all of us will, Jesus had a last supper but many historical Jesus studies indicate that no one really knows what happened at Jesus' last supper or what was said if anything. His "promise" of sending the Holy Spirit is only found in the last gospel i.e. John's gospel, the least historic of the four.

363-. Jesus' Supper Discourse: (1) John 13:31-17:26 wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php/363_Jesus_Supper_Discourse and wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php/016_Supper_and_Eucharist

I wish all Catholics and Christians around the world a Happy Feast of the Holy Trinity! May we experience the joy and peace of Jesus, the gift of the Holy Spirit and the presence of God our Father, as He promised us at the Last Supper as recorded in the Gospel of Johnes chapters 14-17.

Here an online experience of Catholic Mass (hopefully the link works!):

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4966005387057914077

It is my fervent prayer that non-Catholics may know Catholics are genuine Christians (and how misplaced anti-Catholic venom is) and why Catholics around the world feel as one sharing the same ritual and the Holy Sacrament Mass.

Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia

Perfect society??? Sorry there is no Utopian ideal which is why, in no small part, every attempt thus far has ended in some sort of totalitarian nightmare.

Every choice you make has consequences some good some bad the more the government tries to shield you from the bad consequences of your own actions the less reason their is to avoid those choices and the more frequently those choices will be made with dire consequences not just for the individuals who make them but for society at large. The notion that there are victimless crimes is ludicrous.

As Dunne said, "No man is an Island." The fact is everything you do impacts someone else for good or for ill. People ought to live their lives as if the knew that and act accordingly. They do not hence we need government. The job of government is to discourage certain activities and at the very least attempt to refrain from discouraging others. We can argue all day about what acts we think ought to be discouraged and what acts ought to be encouraged. But it does not change the fact that discouraging and encouraging is the primary duty of government.

Sorry the answer is so long and rambling but you asked a question that is utterly without a short and simple answer.

GaryD, I'd be curious:

give us your version of the "perfect society."

Let's get rid of the "left" altogether. What would it look like?

Daniel any view of the universe that accepts even the possibility of absolute truth is essentially narrow as one's view is going to be a least somewhat circumscribed by one's attempt to discover exactly what that truth is.

One is a loser only if one chooses to view one's self in that light. Money doesn't of necessity make you a winner and being poor does not make you a loser. Being African-American doesn't of necessity make you a loser and being a Caucasian doesn't make you a winner.

You are a bright and articulate this however has not kept you from buying into the bill of goods the left has shipped your way for the last fifty years.

Daniel, you're clearly suffering from existential angst. Unfortunately, the existential position is one that is not only self-reinforcing, but tends to long-suffering, loneliness, melancholy and eventually ennui (complete loss of enthusiasm for life). This can be a dangerous pyschological position for obvious reasons.

Christianity won't work for you, because you've already seen through it - no solutions there. If you're philosophical by nature, try Buddhism.....you may find the home you're looking for.

Good luck -

fundamentals of life.

mankind is mortal son of mortal,no mankind ever decided his/her own birth nor own death .

there is upper will above every mankind will .

no mankind ever created any thing in this universe ,try to create a mosquito or even a wing of a mosquito?

every mankind came to this life bare back,bare head,bare eyes bare mouth bare ears,bare hands,bare foot,bare brains.

every mankind depart this life bare back,bare foot bare hands bare brain.

there is creatr for this universe,who created the creator is unvalid question,the one who doubt the creator should come with his/her evidence ,make another universe!this is the real challenge.

every mankind belong to adam and eve , if yu doubt adam and eve then you are doubting your own existance.

this univers is perfect just look at the sun or the moon do you see any deficencey?the creation can tell you a lot about the creator if you have eyes ,ears and heart?.

adam wss not on his own when he came to this universe ,adam was giving a life manifesto ,it doesnot be fit the almighty perfect wise creator to descand adam on this planet earth with out giving him some manifesto to handel this life?,is it wise for any human being in his right mind to thro his child in the midel of the atlantic oacen with out any life boat?why people expect from their creator what they do not expect from their own selfs?

it doesnot be fit the creator to be 3 in one or 1 and son or 1 and daughter or 1 and man or one incarnated in man for ilustration or simplfication ,the allmighty creator is above all this human nonsense false logic,the perfect creator created all this universe but need a son or 2 helpers ???????????????????does the creator need hydrolic lift to lift the sky?does he need to crucify his only begotten son on the cross to save mankind??????????????????????????????????
does this utter nonsense be fit the creator of heavens and earths???????????????????????

the fundamentals of the creed should not contradict the fundamentals of this life that does not favoir no body nor discriminate against no body.

please know your creator.

The Evangelical Manifesto struck me as an utterly strange yet characteristic document of our time. What immediately struck me was how closely argued it was and yet the close argument was in defense of just another particular view in our complex and contradictory time. We have the Evangelicals telling us belief should not be reduced to being merely private, otherwise it might wither, lose integrity because not supported by sufficient numbers of people. But on the other hand Evangelical belief should not be equated with any cultural, social or political belief of our time. In essence Evangelical belief is supposed to be something of a parallel history opposed to all other types of historical current, a history not only supported by enough individuals to counter all other historical trends of our time but a history essentially not subject to any cultural, social, political belief. Humans in essence living according to a type of theological time.

This gives the Evangelical Manifesto something of the air of a blueprint of a garrison and in fact shares with so many other types of view the characteristic of a topology of the imagination. But once again, for all its strangeness it is utterly characteristic for our time. We see the same pattern even with what we all can agree is actual, say an automobile. Recently I flipped through a car magazine in a store and I was struck how automotive design at this late date is essentially concentration on minutia, an increasingly minute circumscribing of a phenomenon. It seems we are increasingly incapable of grasping a total and coherent view of existence and are instead wallowing in contradictions we try to escape from by propping up this view or that. This gives us all the air of something of paranoid schizophrenics.

This is not to say I am unsympathetic to the Evangelical view--on the contrary, I suffer from existence greatly and deeply wonder if I have committed some great wrong to be suffering so--but I have so many other views of existence in my mind I just cannot reduce myself to this view or that. I just suffer in contradiction. In defense of Evangelicals though, I should point out the often absurd statements of atheists. Take Richard Dawkins, biologist. I read that he takes offense when someone says the Darwinistic world is a world of accident. He says the Darwinistic world is one of design, just not designed by God. It hardly takes a genius to observe that the Darwinistic world will seem like a wonderful design to a winner in the Darwinistic world and seem like the most dreadful accident to a loser. I happen to be a loser in society and the Darwinistic world seems to me a most dreadful accident, or if a design, a design by a lunatic. This puts me in sympathy with God-fearing beliefs, which is to say in the face of an absurd existence I have recourse to God. But then again I am a child of our time and I cannot easily have faith like an Evangelical Christian. I cannot erase my power to observe that a document such as the Evangelical Manifesto argues this way and that for a quite narrow view of existence. The only true position of integrity is to somehow be reconciled to the contradictions of our time, an essentially incoherent existence, and try as best as possible to bring coherence into existence for oneself and fellow man.

If anyone can enlighten me I will listen, but more and more each day I am trying to be patient and just suffer an incomprehensible existence. Certainly I am finding out as never before what it means to long for a woman. Not necessarily sex but to just have someone sleep by one's side, someone to be there until death do us part. I envy people that easily get by with this view of existence or that. But then again I guess my glory and tragedy is that I know something of what it means to be a philosopher.

2)Zeal for a cause.

The cause is not necessarily Christianity.

Paul,

1. He is one God. He appears as one of three person to make it easier on us.

2. Better read it again. No one's eyes got opened until Adam ate. It was Adam's responsibility, given him by God. Had Adam not taken a bite we'd still be in Eden and I wouldn't have to be dealing with ill informed and not infrequently poorly thought out bilge from atheist who think they are the first one to trot out some hoary old strawman that's been around at least as long as there as the word Christianity which was originally meant as a pejorative.

3.Read the next line as well as the end of that Chapter. And please note the adverb. He was sent to the Jews but sent for all those whose names' are written in the Book of Life.

I believe in God, but I do not believe in the god or gods of some of the preachers. Too many of the clergy is preaching fables as fact.

QUOTE:
Angela :

The core beliefs of an evangelical:

1. We believe in one God, eternally existing in three Persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Why does God need three persons? I have no problem with just one God. Must we have some sort of idol to worship God?
----------------------------------
2. We believe that man was created in the image of God, that he sinned and thereby incurred physical and spiritual death; that human beings are sinners by nature and practice.

Man was thrown out of Eden for something he did not do...not for doing it.
Besides, Eve had sex with the snake and that put a tribe of lawyers on the earth. That is the reason the lawyers slither into the courtroom today.
---------------------------------
3. We believe the Scriptures to be verbally inspired of God and inerrant, and that they are of supreme and final authority in faith and life.

Matthew 15 vs 24: He said in reply, "I was send ONLY to the lost sheep of Israel."
What I get out of this is that unless you are a Jew, Jesus is not yours and you are not his.
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4. We believe it is the duty and privilege of all believers to witness by deed and word to those truths set forth in the Holy Scriptures.
5. We believe in the bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust; the eternal life of the saved and the everlasting punishment of the lost.

Compare eternity and 100 years.
Also, read the book of Revelation, especially the messages to the churches. Revelation is a pivot book for the old and new testaments. What good is the book if you cannot understand the symbology of the book. Read A Dragon This Way Comes and it will help in the understanding of the messages to the churches. The book was written over 20 years ago.
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6. Jesus Christ was pre-existent and eternal and in His incarnation was begotten by the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. He is truly God and truly man.

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7. We believe that the Lord Jesus Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures as the substitutionary Sacrifice; that all who receive Him by faith are saved and justified on the ground of His shed blood.

If Jesus died for our sins, then we have no sweat on getting into Heaven...Revelation tells a different story tho.
Killing a sacrifice sounds kinda pagan to me...yet those Incas and the Aztecs were condemned for it.

Expanding the definition of evangelicals: (new entries found on global Google)

1. "Propheteers" for profit

Other "Propheteers" for profit?? Mohammed and Paul

2. Militants with a religious zeal for a cause. e.g. Muslims, Zionists, Sunnis, Shiites, members of the IRA.

3. Militants who erroneously follow the "fems" (flaws, errors, muck and stench) of a religion.

e.g. the "fems" of Islam:

Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, who also had embellishing/hallucinating/ plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the assassination of Bhutto, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.

And who funds this muck and stench of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

O Islam, Islam, violent Islam,
Moha, illiterate and hallucinating,
O Islam, Islam, violent Islam,
Moha greed and lustful, womanizing,
Was he too,

O Islam, O Islam, violent Islam,
Moha, warmongering and hateful,
Was he too,

O Islam, O Islam, violent Islam,
Sunnis of hate, Shiites of late,
Even Pretty Wingie Thingies cannot
Save us from O Islam's hate.

Save us from these Islamic FEMs,
Flaws, Errors, Muck and Stench,
They ooze from the rocks of earth,
Like worms of wrench and death.

Born, Bred, and Brainwashed too,
Whatever, whatever to do?
Truth, Truth, History and Truth,
Let it Ring True, Freedom, Freedom
Freedom at Last and much left to do!!!

An evangelical is someone who obeys Jesus Christ and makes disciples of all the nations teaching them about the Kingdom of God which will eventually replace ALL other kingdoms (ncluding United States). Also teaching them to obey Jesus Christ and God's commandments.

What kind of person would vote for one Kingdom while praying for another?

I hope the Evangelical Manifesto is in existence only because the Christian Leaders don't want to be THAT kind of person.

Geoff

Webster's definition:

1.) Evangelicals= (1)of relating to , or according to the Christian gospel, esp the 4 Gospels of the New Testament. (2) Of or being a Protestant group that stresses the authority of the gospel and salvation by faith in Jesus Christ (3) Zealous in preaching or prostelyzing.

2.) Evangelism= (1) Zealous preaching and spreading of the Gospel. (2) Zeal for a cause

So tell me why isn't this specifically referring to Christians? That is where the word comes from.

A few scriptural references:
Acts 21:8
Ephesians 4:11
2 Timothy 4:5

Webster's definition:

1.) Evangelicals= (1)of relating to , or according to the Christian gospel, esp the 4 Gospels of the New Testament. (2) Of or being a Protestant group that stresses the authority of the gospel and salvation by faith in Jesus Christ (3) Zealous in preaching or prostelyzing.

2.) Evagelism= (1) Zealous preaching and spreading of the Gospel. (2) Zeal for a cause

So tell me why isn't this specifically referring to Christians? That is where the word comes from.

A few scriptural references:
Acts 21:8
Ephesians 4:11
2 Timothy 4:5

An Evangelical is simply a person of the Christian Faith who is "Evangelising" others to become a part of their faith. i.e. I am a Christian, I seek to Evangelize the gospel so that people might become saved. And I speak the Gospel of Jesus Christ so that those that don't know of Him will know of his ways and the good news of Christ (The Gospel). Sometimes it may step on some political toes because people of faith are supposed to uphold the standards of Christ in their homes and in their lives as a whole. Now what most people and even some Christians don't understand is that the government isn't on the same level relating to that as the personal lives of the individual.

For Example, the bible says that "Thou Shalt Not Kill". But the original Hebrew text stated that "Thou Shalt Not Murder" which is different. I may kill someone in self defense and I will not be held accountable under God's laws for killing that person. Yet if I murder someone in cold blood rather it was with a gun or whatever object, that is a sin and that is MURDER. Now the government is not supposed to use those same laws. Regarding this sense. If a person commits a crime and the punishment is death, they should be put to death according to the scriptures. Because the government is not murdering this person they are killing this person that committed a crime. Because that's their punishment.

Now in some cases this doesn't apply. For example abortion. Abortion is the MURDERING of a life that God has created. This is INNOCENT Blood that will be shed because some mother is using this as her form of birth control or she was raped and didn't want to keep the child or they "can't afford" the child. That IS MURDER. And it's allowing evil spirits to run amuck in the world and the next thing you know, the government will allow all types of satanic things to go on in this world. Not only that but has anyone noticed what has happened in the school systems since they took prayer out of schools. It hasn't been the same since. Tell me now, of how many times a child came to school with a shot gun and killed his classmates prior to them taking out prayer from the schools? People always want protection from God but they don't want to do what God has commanded them to do for His hand of protection to cover them.

Evangelism is simply for us Christians to spread the gospel. The original intent had nothing to do with politics and the liberals and those left winged people have tried to make "evangelism" a dirty word. And that's not what God told us to do. He told us to go out and spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And that includes his ways of doing what he does. That's it and that settles it.

An Evangelical is simply a person of the Christian Faith who is "Evangelising" others to become a part of their faith. i.e. I am a Christian, I seek to Evangelize the gospel so that people might become saved. And I speak the Gospel of Jesus Christ so that those that don't know of Him will know of his ways and the good news of Christ (The Gospel). Sometimes it may step on some political toes because people of faith are supposed to uphold the standards of Christ in their homes and in their lives as a whole. Now what most people and even some Christians don't understand is that the government isn't on the same level relating to that as the personal lives of the individual.

For Example, the bible says that "Thou Shalt Not Kill". But the original Hebrew text stated that "Thou Shalt Not Murder" which is different. I may kill someone in self defense and I will not be held accountable under God's laws for killing that person. Yet if I murder someone in cold blood rather it was with a gun or whatever object, that is a sin and that is MURDER. Now the government is not supposed to use those same laws. Regarding this sense. If a person commits a crime and the punishment is death, they should be put to death according to the scriptures. Because the government is not murdering this person they are killing this person that committed a crime. Because that's their punishment.

Now in some cases this doesn't apply. For example abortion. Abortion is the MURDERING of a life that God has created. This is INNOCENT Blood that will be shed because some mother is using this as her form of birth control or she was raped and didn't want to keep the child or they "can't afford" the child. That IS MURDER. And it's allowing evil spirits to run amuck in the world and the next thing you know, the government will allow all types of satanic things to go on in this world. Not only that but has anyone noticed what has happened in the school systems since they took prayer out of schools. It hasn't been the same since. Tell me now, of how many times a child came to school with a shot gun and killed his classmates prior to them taking out prayer from the schools? People always want protection from God but they don't want to do what God has commanded them to do for His hand of protection to cover them.

Evangelism is simply for us Christians to spread the gospel. The original intent had nothing to do with politics and the liberals and those left winged people have tried to make "evangelism" a dirty word. And that's not what God told us to do. He told us to go out and spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And that includes his ways of doing what he does. That's it and that settles it.

I come from a family of evangelicals with four preachers between my siblings and first cousins. Three are fundamentalist one is not, two are Pentacostal and believe they speak in tongues, and that public trance induced seizures are evidence of the presence of a holy spirit.

All are evangelical. All believe their view of god is the only correct view. All believe that anyone that does not share their faith in their god in is hell bound, and serves satan. You either serve god or satan and their is no alternative.

There are Christians that do not share this world view, BUT I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT CAN BE TRUE OF EVANGELICALS. Otherwise why the drive to convert the world?

That conviction that only their world view can be correct and humans with any other views, regardless of the good deads, benevolence, kindness, and humanity are by nature evil, makes evangelicals, whether christian or muslim, intollerant, anti-social, and inherantly disrespectful of the human race.

The very belief that humans are inherantly evil and encapable of great goodness and highly ethical behavior is detrimental to the whole of the human race.

How can we ever coexist as a species when large parts of the species share convictions that the rest are not capable and worthy of goodness, and goodness in spirit? What was the Third Reich but the ultimate expression of Evangelicalism?

How has GWB's Crusade been sold to a blind American public except as spreading a superior world view to nonbelievers?

I don't care about your beliefs, but when they include the view that anyone with a different belief is hellbound and an agent of evil, you have become an impediment to the advancement of a cooperative, tolerant and ethical human species.

I hear christians state that secular humanism is a religion, and public support of secular values are evangelical. As a secular humanist I can only know that my efforts to promote those values are only to promote an environment where disrespect and demonization of other humans is removed from our vocabulary and mindset. If your religion promotes those traits and values, it holds the seeds of every war and every disrimination that humanity has suffered since the first shaman led his tribe into battle to take the resources of another tribe.

Religiious intolerance has not served the human race, nor led to and end of war, hate or tribalism.

This website claims to be a place where interfaith and nonfaith dialogue can be carried on in honesty and respect. That can only be true when participants truly believe that the beliefs of others while not shared, do not make those expressing them inherantly evil.

The only things that make humans evil are hatred, intollerance and a willingness to force your world view on another with discrimination or force.

OK OK--

But what about the Luddite Manifesto unleashing the crazy raspberry ants in Texas?

What do I think of this Evangelical Manifesto?

The answer is simple. It stinks of calculation, thus proving the dominant worldview which we call modernism (and now postmodernism) has at least irretrievably altered religion in America. The document reeks of the combination of business, politics and economics and biology of our time. We live in a world in which although we do not know origins and ends we know the middle quite well, and we call this middle Darwin, business as usual, politics, test taking, statistics, etc.

Religion is fighting for a place in an America which is moving more and more to a raw calculation of human worth, SAT scores, athletic records, etc. We are quite simply moving more and more toward the genetic level and trying to be more than present genetics. We have an intellectual elite going to Harvard and an underclass of blacks incarcerated in our prisons. Religion exists today to largely console the losers in American society. The elite is perfectly happy with the Darwinistic view and even says with Richard Dawkins that the Darwinistic world is no world of accident but one of design, just not designed by God. Yes, a wonderful world of Darwinistic design--just as long as one is not a genetic loser, then of course it is a world of the most dreadful accident, a world which cries out to God.

It hardly takes an observant person to observe that American society is in transition--that we have religion grappling with a secular square which is committed to a socialistic view. But what the left and the right fail to understand is all the tension in the middle, all the jockeying between sheer survival of the fittest and attempts to equalize with religion or socialism--let alone the attempts to get above the system by selecting a technocratic elite. The plain fact is more and more everyday American life is looking like merely a threshold experience, a spreading out of the human marbles (consideration of individuality) for the purpose of an intelligent mixing and matching, human society neither designed by God nor an accident but a design by man of man...

Ask yourself what in human society is not ephemera even as we strive as never before to produce everything. We roar toward films, music, poetry, automobiles, houses, appliances--we try to produce anything and everything and...still we are lost and all fades. All that is left is to begin truly producing man--to not have man born by accident and maybe go to Harvard, maybe get incarcerated, but to have man truly produced--improved as we improve any appliance. That is the born again experience which is upon us.

Now I should make clear I am not talking about a happy go lucky world or describing my personal fantasy or promoting my view or anything. I simply write what I see. I see an increasingly multipolar world (the U.S. on par with China, Russia, India, Brazil, etc.) which if not coming to the point of all out war coming to the point where the genetic sciences are rushed into because no people wants to be left behind. Science, business as usual. If I am not to be believed just ask the average accountant.

Or if you have courage just ask yourself. Ask yourself if it was up to you you would choose to have your baby be an accidental birth over a birth in which you could have your child have superior I.Q. and health. We do not need to get into the old argument of who would choose the elite of society if an elite could be created, all we need to do is ask what we want for ourselves. And apparently today we want many to be incarcerated and few to go to Harvard.

Tomorrow we will want many to be born again because designed by man before birth. Keep up with the science folks--or not. It seems to make no difference. When modernity is spread around the world at least one people will take it to its logical conclusions. Or do we believe today will endure forever, that we will have some sort of economy in which this religion and that prospers side by side--and of course we will have a few atheists in the mix? Tell me, is there a person among you that finds our modern world coherent and not just a transition experience? My belief is that by 2200 man will be truly post post modern--out of all modernisms--and into the age of genetically designing himself and furthermore be ready to start moving off world.

There must be any number of people around capable of writing a manifesto for tomorrow...All I have done is write a few obvious sentences.

To Aquarius from Daniel. Sorry if I was not clear, but I am not exactly happy about society rushing into a genetic revolution. I am not promoting anything, I am just writing what I take from the evidence before my eyes. I will write again soon to hopefully make things clearer. But getting to the film you recommended I watch, the film Gattaca, I find it astonishing how people interpret that film. Everyone it seems interprets it in the sense that the genetic aristocracy in the film is deeply flawed because the hero in the film (with normal genes) is able to compete with the genetic aristocracy, but the truth is the hero is the exception which proves the rule: he is the only one able to compete with the genetic aristocracy--that is how perfect the system is. if the film were to be consistent what the Gattaca aristocracy would do is examine his genes and incorporate him into the system--not reject him. But to say it again, the Gattaca world is so perfect that...need I continue? Most people read the film from the wrong way around. Will write further soon.

NIce bit of evangelizing Jonny.

Angela that is the core belief of most Christians not every evangelist is a Christian.

Mainstream Baptists of The NoT Karl Rove and Richard Land stripe have some reservations about this document.
Both Robert Parham and Bruce Prescott have written up their reservations; best place to look is Parham's site Ethicsdaily.com
In the Baptist world it appears Timothy George is getting a pass for the destructive work he did on abortion that became a building bloc for Rove and Bushism of the last 15 odd years.
And the Manifesto in a way whitewashed all the chaos of the fundamentalist takeover of the Southern Baptist Convention; and there is no virtue in that.
Even so any document that Mark Noll and Miroslav Volf sign on is a serious matter. And even with my disclaimers I see some hope in the fact that David Rogers, son of one of the leading movement fundamentalists (Adrian Rogers) of the Reagan/Bush, Atwater/Rove era signed on.
That is a sign of hope.
PS; have Newsweek take a look at the controversy surrounding Bush Commencement speech at Furman May 31. That Faculty is bringing Chris Hedges to campus May 28.
Having the Bush Presidency bookended in Greenville, South Carolina by Bob Jones and Furman (both with Baptist connections) should not pass dissection by Newsweek and other mags of note.

The core beliefs of an evangelical:

1. We believe in one God, eternally existing in three Persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
2. We believe that man was created in the image of God, that he sinned and thereby incurred physical and spiritual death; that human beings are sinners by nature and practice.
3. We believe the Scriptures to be verbally inspired of God and inerrant, and that they are of supreme and final authority in faith and life.
4. We believe it is the duty and privilege of all believers to witness by deed and word to those truths set forth in the Holy Scriptures.
5. We believe in the bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust; the eternal life of the saved and the everlasting punishment of the lost.
6. Jesus Christ was pre-existent and eternal and in His incarnation was begotten by the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. He is truly God and truly man.
7. We believe that the Lord Jesus Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures as the substitutionary Sacrifice; that all who receive Him by faith are saved and justified on the ground of His shed blood.
8. We believe in the physical resurrection of Jesus Christ and in His ascension into Heaven to be the High Priest and Advocate of the members of His Body, the Church.
8. We believe in the personal, imminent and visible return of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
9. That all believers are called to live their lives to God’s glory, connected with His family, growing to be like Christ, serving the Church, and reaching the lost.
10. We believe there are two sacraments set forth in the Scriptures: Baptism and the Supper of our Lord (Communion) and does not produce salvation which is only through repentance and faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

An evangelical is someone who thinks the Bible is true, despite almost 400 hundred years of scientific biblical scholarship which shows it is nonsense. Therefore what is an evangelical? A fool or a knave, probably both.

Here is one definition of evangelicalism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Bebbington

Here is one definition: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Bebbington

www.savagechickens.com/blog/2008/05/leadership.html

Garyd:

... Every faith does at least some evangelism or it would not exist.
______

Devoutly (sarcasm here) to be desired.

Technology, in other words, is a tool but rarely if ever a solution in itself, because its effects depend on who is holding it and where it's pointing. It is just as likely to point at other people, in a bad way.
Also, group selection favors altruistic groups, otherwise we wouldn't have ended with traits such as altruism to begin with.

To answer the question posed, -- an evangelical is a magical thinker. Magical thinking is, of course, nonsense -- so who CARES what kind of birdbrained "manifesto" they produce? Goat innards, chicken bones, the Booble -- same old same old.

(also 'Brave New World' by A. Huxley )

Watch 'Gataka', Daniel, no technology is without it's potential drawbacks.
It's like saying that we are better off with TV, than before TV, because everyone is better informed. In reality, everyone is also better lied to.

An Evangelical simply put is one who evengelizes. To evangelize is to attempt to convert to one's faith. Every faith does at least some evangelism or it would not exist.

My opinion of this document is unequivocal: it is one of the saddest, conflicted, incoherent documents I have ever read but will no doubt bring ecstasies from the media for its "moderation". "Half-half" people everywhere will applaud it although it is merely a symptom of society in transition and without the courage to articulate a past let alone a future.

Unfortunately it falls to me to articulate the future: We live in a society increasingly secular and dominated by a Darwinistic business/economic sense which reels between a complete repudiation of such by religion and secular attempts (read socialism) to smooth the stripped, schematic process toward pure businessman.

All tender thoughts, fantasies (poetry, religion) perish and what we have is a process in which we are strangled by cliches and all we can really do is cry out to be not as we are. And the plain fact is we will do all we can to not be as we are. The genetic sciences will rush ahead and we will no longer be able to deny that all innovation, production, etc. is largely ineffective unless it is we ourselves producing and genetically improving on ourselves--altering ourselves to the very core--being born again only in that sense and not any other sense let alone Evangelical.

All of modernity is merely a threshold experience, the setting of the stage for man to alter himself, improve on himself, genetically. Only a genetic revolution can finally result in a human race above poverty and equal to dealing with responsibility for the environment. And I should add I am utterly unequivocal about what I have just written. We either go forward or we do not. And if we do not we will have nothing more but merely transitory documents, "half-half" journalistic gestures for a "calm", "moderate" public sphere.

Expect this Evangelical Manifesto to die instantly before the continued genetic revolution and our society in general which leaves no secure place for the mind and is dominated by raw business after business. Tell me, what really is going to be new other than ourselves genetically improved? We have laid to waste everything else! Do we really expect any religion or art to eternally endure? Folly!

The only way is forward and to genetically alter ourselves. That really is the only honest manifesto for today....

"Go and make disciples of all the nations ..."

In essence that is the root of what an "evangelical" should be, though the term has clearly come to describe a political voting group.

I certainly believe that evangelicals and non-evangelicals should be voting, and it is interesting that the pollsters have found voting commonalities among those that fit a biblical phrase. Too bad there aren't more commonalities with some other terms of Biblical origin.

A very surprising document, in a good way. Contradicting in a few places, but nothing that can't be fixed or elaborated on in the future.
As to (self)definitions - no single or multiple terms or labels can completely describe actual people.

Evangelical: "propheteers" for profit!!!!!

Evangelical - Pope John Paul II & now Pope Benedict XVI has called for all Catholics to evangalize by their lives as an example of what a Christian is. This covers all facits of life.
God Bless your work. Paul Tasin

one of the things i like about the document is that the authors choose not to say that creationism and inerrancy are non-negotiables. for the first, there’s very little biblical justification anymore behind whatever the latest flavor of anti-natural-selection dessert is being served up; for the latter, somehow we can admit that we can’t prove the existence of God, but goshdarnit we have a golden egg this unprovable God laid right here. there’s simply too much of a tendency to add items to the ever-increasing laundry list of ideas and doctrines to which we have to pledge allegiance before we’re allowed into the room marked “Christian.”

i liked the positive nature of the piece - that it isn’t yet another “here’s everything we’re against” rant but an effort to make the gospel again a message of good news. American Christianity has lost this defining characteristic that once served it well.

i also liked this: We are also troubled by the fact that the advance of globalization and the emergence of a global public square finds no matching vision of how we are to live freely, justly, and peacefully with our deepest differences on the global stage. we've at least got to figure out how we're going to happily share the same bathroom over the next few decades in our ever-shrinking world.

perhaps one unintended benefit of the proposal is a clear opportunity to take this EM (Evangelical Manifesto), align it with the other EM (Emergent Manifesto), get all our EM & EMs in a row, and stop each side from demonizing the other.

mike rucker
fairburn, georgia, usa
mikerucker.wordpress.com