Readers’ Responses to Our Question (105)

5 days, no reponse- as predicted, another soja paste and run

this is a dead thread soja- no one here but us chickens-

your first point- that anti-theists can argue ad infinitum - not applicable as we are both believers-

your second point- that this forum is for fostering understanding and establishing a common ground-
is exactly what i have been doing-
you asked me a question-
why did i leave catholicism and turn to islam?

to claim that the answer- respectfully given- is outside of the realm of these boards or what you perceive their purpose is- also not applicable to this discussion.

moving on- your third point- that these boards are not for attmepted conversions- i totally agree.

which is why ive given extended assurances to you that i have not the tiniest interest in converting you-

however, your fears- cloud your ability to even answer the simplest of discourse-

neither HL,nor i - have expressed any mention of islam whatsoever-

why do you keep bringing it up?

i am not simpleminded to be so easily distracted-

now- back to the unanswered question-

i think it frightens you- but i said that in the first post-
i predicted it would be too scary for you to ontemplate- and it is true.

i refer you to my post on april 29 @ 11:04 AM

where i stated (and i quote myself)
***********************
"its a frightening question to ponder-
but we don't avoid questions because we fear the answer may alter our views-"
***********************

while you deliberately choose to interpret the john 14 passages in a strict and literalist (what i call) funda-mentality- in complete contradiction- you interpret other biblical passages from a symbolic, broad POV.

you use different criteria to get the foregone conclusion that you want to arrive at-

when it's convenient- in the case of john 14- it becomes strict- and still it requires a great deal of stretching to arrive at that conclusion.

and that is a peripheral and weak passage-
(especially to construct an entire theology from)

while the 1st commandment is so seminal and basic to the religion of Jesus himself- and all jews- and hence all early christians who formed the church-

that to abandon it in favor of the former (john 14) defies all reason!

this disconnect within your own mind lends no credence to your statement-
***********************
"I have found no spiritual insight in the Quran that provides any reason to me as a Christian, to consider converting to Islam."
**************************

well- first- no one asked you to convert-

and second- youve given no indication that your capacity to interpret your own scriptures to provide spiritual insights.

so, it is not surprising that you have not been able to glean any insights from the qur'an.

and then- to make-yet another comparison (unsolicited) between the qur'an and the bible-

with the bible predictably triumphant- poor islam just a shadowy plagarism in your estimation-

***********************************
" Anyone who has read the Bible fully and prayerfully would find that the best of spiritual insights expressed in the Quran can be traced back to the Bible; "
*****************************

completely contradicts your earlier complaint that these boards are for finding common ground.

well- ive read the bible- fully-prayerfully- scholarly-literally-symbolically-
i dont agree- but it is not an opinion.

it is based upon years and years of active comparison-
but you will never see me malign the bible - as i actually DO respect the other faithful-

and never find it necessary to put one down to raise myself up.

o yes- i got THAT idea from the qur'an.
how about that.

and i have many many other questions.

but the first one seems to have stumped you.

****************
how do you reconcile the first commandment-
to worship no other gods before or beside God?
with the worship of Jesus(may He be blessed)
as God?

there is a contradiction and conflict there that cannot resolve itself-

either you honor the 1st commandment- and reject the divinity of Jesus(ata)

or you honor Jesus as God and reject the 1st commandment.
(which you've already stated you believe and honor)

but one negates the other-
the 2 ideas cannot exist together in harmony- they cancel each other out-
************************

no answer? just say it then.

Victoria & HL

On this Forum believers of all persuasions are familiar with anti-theists who claim God doesn't exist. Any believer who has invested the time and energy to get into a debate with them know that they could keep the debate going for eternity with clever rejoinder to anything a believer has to say. Anti-theists (as opposed to atheists who are content to let believers remain believers) are not content with not believing in God themselves, they insist others should give up their belief in God as well, and anyone who doesn't is deluded at worst and stupid at best.

This On Faith forum is about finding common ground with people of other faiths and none, based on shared human values and a universal concern for the welfare of all mankind. It is about trying to find a basis to work together based on mutual respect, accepting the differences in perspectives and beliefs.

Any attempt at trying to convert a person of one faith to another or to none has been met with great failure in this discussion forum. People looking to convert to other faiths would go to the numerous websites run by the members of the respective faiths. Nobody would bother to read this forum to convert to Islam or Christianity or any other faith. This forum, as far as I can see, is about learning to respect people of other faiths, learning to appreciate different perspectives and working out common ground to have meaningful dialogue and work towards the common goal of common good for all human beings.

Therefore, while I respect your commitment to Islam and your desire to convert others to your faith, may I gently remind both of you that neither I, nor anyone else for that matter, would consider this the appropriate forum to explore Islam as a religion if the intention was to seek spiritual insights to convert to the religion? My personal interest in Victoria's spiritual journey has been only because she was once a Catholic and spent long years in training to be a nun in a Franciscan convent, which is known and respected worldwide for its work for the poor and marginalized. Nothing I read in the Quran has convinced me that a Franciscan stands in need of spiritual insight that only the Quran could give.

While I respect Islam and Muslims, especially their dedication to their religion, it must be added that I have found no spiritual insight in the Quran that provides any reason to me as a Christian, to consider converting to Islam. Anyone who has read the Bible fully and prayerfully would find that the best of spiritual insights expressed in the Quran can be traced back to the Bible; many Biblical persons are mentioned in the Quran, even if they are portrayed in a different way.

Typical Soja, she does not understand why anyone can’t be Christian but never seem to be able to defend what she believes in the first place.

Soja said:

Victoria, your question regarding the divinity of Jesus is a simple one to answer. I have addressed it several months ago on this forum.

The Gospel of John 14:8-11 gives the answer:

8 Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."

Is Philip asking Jesus to produce the Father (God) in physical form or does he mean something else altogether? Is this similar to when Moses implored God, "Oh, let me behold your Presence?" Please explain.

9 Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

What does this mean to you? How is this proof that Jesus claimed to be a god?If I say: anyone who has seen me has seen my brother, does that mean my brother and I are the same?
Could you please elaborate?

10 Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

The first part of the verse states “That I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me”; what does that mean? Keep in mind what comes after that in verse 20 when Jesus says: “At that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.” If verse 10 means that Jesus is God because God is in him then using the same logic we can assume that verse 20 means that the apostles are part of this god council (for lack of better word) too since Jesus is in them and they in him.

In the second part of verse, Jesus says he is not acting alone; he doesn’t speak for himself but God is instructing him of what to say and preach. Elsewhere Jesus supposed to have said: “For I have not spoken on my own authority; but the Father who sent me gave me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.” And "My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me." Could you please tell us how this connects to your concept of the trinity doctrine?

11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.

Again how is this proof that Jesus is a god? Isn’t he explicitly saying that the miracles he had performed were not of his power but the works of God through him? Because in the same book Jesus also said: “I can of myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and my judgment is righteous, because I do not seek my own will but the will of the Father who sent me.” This is congruent with what Peter said in Acts: “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves also know.”

Again how is this proof that Jesus is a god? Please elaborate.

Keep in mind these absolute explicit declarations lest you forget:

Sh'ma Yis'ra'eil Adonai Eloheinu Adonai echad. “Hear, O Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One.” Deut. 6:4; isn’t this what Jesus answered when an inquisitor asked about the first and most important commandment of all? Or maybe you want to remember what is said in Deut: ‘He is God; there is no other besides Him’. Deut. 4:35
Or maybe this reminder from the Quran: “your God is One God; there is no God save Him, the Beneficent, the Merciful.” And “There is only God the One!”

In the book of Mark Jesus said: “Why do you call me good? No one is good but One, that is, God”; if he objected to simply being called good how would he react to being called a god by you or anyone else? Think about it.

THAT WAS VICTORIA - having trouble posting on here lately-

SOJA-
how do you reconcile the contradiction between the first commandment and the concept that Jesus is divine, and god?

I guess you don't. Don't worry- I couldn't either. I left. You stayed.
well, we're different people. ALLAH created us all,

SHAKIR: O you men! surely We have created you of a male and a female, and made you tribes and families that you may know each other; surely the most honorable of you with Allah is the one among you most careful (of his duty); surely Allah is Knowing, Aware.

so you see, the distinction is not made on the basis of gender, or race or any group- but those who are righteous and noble-

which could be anyone from anywhere.
pretty inclusive, isn't it?

to loosely quote thomas jefferson (one of the founding fathers of america) "My neighbor's faith neither breaks my leg, no fills my pocket."

i am not going to make comparisons between other religions-
when one compares, there's always a winner and a loser-

i respect other people and their faiths-

in islam- we are simply advised to debate with grace and gentility- and if no agreement is reached- to agree to part ways-
you to your religion, and me to my faith.

i have no desire to convince you, or anyone else- of anything.

well dearheart- lets agree to disagree-
you have a drive to seek justice in this world- i like to think that i do too-
i consider that one of the strengths of islam-

its a beautiful thing-

so, at the least- namaste and i recognize the god-force within you.

SOJA-
how do you reconcile the contradiction between the first commandment and the concept that Jesus is divine, and god?

I guess you don't. Don't worry- I couldn't either. I left. You stayed.
well, we're different people. ALLAH created us all,

SHAKIR: O you men! surely We have created you of a male and a female, and made you tribes and families that you may know each other; surely the most honorable of you with Allah is the one among you most careful (of his duty); surely Allah is Knowing, Aware.

so you see, the distinction is not made on the basis of gender, or race or any group- but those who are righteous and noble-

which could be anyone from anywhere.
pretty inclusive, isn't it?

to loosely quote thomas jefferson (one of the founding fathers of america) "My neighbor's faith neither breaks my leg, no fills my pocket."

i am not going to make comparisons between other religions-
when one compares, there's always a winner and a loser-

i respect other people and their faiths-

in islam- we are simply advised to debate with grace and gentility- and if no agreement is reached- to agree to part ways-
you to your religion, and me to my faith.

i have no desire to convince you, or anyone else- of anything.

well dearheart- lets agree to disagree-
you have a drive to seek justice in this world- i like to think that i do too-
i consider that one of the strengths of islam-

its a beautiful thing-

so, at the least- namaste and i recognize the god-force within you.

Catholic News Agency 30 April 2008

Pope meets with Iran-based Muslim group, method for dialogue agreed on

Vatican City, Apr 30, 2008 / 04:06 pm (CNA).- Following today's general audience, Benedict XVI received a group of Iranian Muslims who have been meeting biannually for the last 12 years with thl e Pontifical Council for Inter-religious Dialogue. The dialogue between the Vatican and the Muslim group resulted in an agreement on faith and reason, violence and religion and the method for dialogue.

The Vatican is being represented in the discussions by a delegation led by Cardinal Jean-Louis Tauran, while the president of the Islamic Culture and Relations Organization of Tehran, Iran is leading their group. Representatives from both groups have been holding meetings in Rome to study the theme of: "Faith and Reason in Christianity and Islam".

During the course of the discussions, which came to a close on Wednesday, the two delegations agreed upon the following points:

1. "Faith and reason are both gifts of God to mankind."

2. "Faith and reason do not contradict each other, but faith might in some cases be above reason, but never against it."

3. "Faith and reason are intrinsically non-violent. Neither reason nor faith should be used for violence; unfortunately, both of them have been sometimes misused to perpetrate violence. In any case, these events cannot question either reason or faith."

4. "Both sides agreed to further co-operate in order to promote genuine religiosity, in particular spirituality, to encourage respect for symbols considered to be sacred and to promote moral values."

5. "Christians and Muslims should go beyond tolerance, accepting differences, while remaining aware of commonalties and thanking God for them. They are called to mutual respect, thereby condemning derision of religious beliefs."

6. "Generalization should be avoided when speaking of religions. Differences of confessions with Christianity and Islam, diversity of historical contexts are important factors to be considered."

7. "Religious traditions cannot be judged on the basis of a single verse or a passage present in their respective holy Books. A holistic vision as well as an adequate hermeneutical method is necessary for a fair understanding of them".

Speaking with the Iranian news agency IRNA after a meeting with Archbishop Gianfranco Ravasi, the head of the Pontifical Council for Culture, Mostafavi said that the two had discussed other ways to improve dialogue between Catholics and Muslims.

One of the ideas under discussion included holding meetings dedicated to religious-themed theatre and cinema. Another proposal floated in the meeting was to facilitate exchanges between scientific institutes and universities linked to the Catholic Church and Shia research centers in Iran.

Victoria, Christianity has survived two thousand years and has had billions of believers in that time based on a supposedly attempted answer to the identity of Jesus. Even today one third of the world’s population is Christian. Not a bad record for an attempted answer.

Going into the history of the Syro-Malabar Church in Kerala and to its connection with the Roman Catholic Church in Rome, serves no purpose in our discussion, so I would prefer to leave that out. Anyone who is interested can look up links provided by Google.

What would be of immense help to Franciscans, Catholics, Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus and Wiccans is a detailed explanation of your experience in each of these traditions. It would add to their knowledge if you could explain how Islam provides the ultimate answer to all spiritual quest. Just in case you misunderstood me before, I do not sit in judgement of you for choosing Islam as your religion. I was only trying to point out that your understanding and experience of other religions you practiced may not have been ideal, which is why you felt the need to move on. I have read the Quran myself, so there is no need for you to conclude that I do not know what Islam is about.

As to the faithfulness to the practice of celibacy for a religious reason, it is the same as remaining faithful to the vow to remain faithful to one’s spouse made during the marriage ceremony. The decision to marry is an act of the free will and the obligation to remain faithful to one partner goes with the commitment, just as the choice of a religious life which comes with an expectation to remain celibate is made freely. All human beings are subject to temptations of the flesh. Whether one enters into marriage or makes a vow of celibacy, one is not forced into it. The decision to remain faithful to oneself and one’s vow is a matter of personal integrity. Are you discussing personal integrity? And by the way medical doctors do not necessarily have to suffer from all diseases before they give any advice on how to deal with any of them. So your opinion that a celibate priest is likely to be completely ignorant about sexual matters may not be accurate. A priest is not expected to fulfil the role of a sex-therapist to his parishioners, so what is your complaint?

I will let others carry on the conversation with you. The Islamic view on Jesus, I'm already familiar with after reading the Quran, so there is no need to go over that with you.

HI SOJA- thanks for trying to answer-

since you say you have difficulty understanding me- i think it is the reason why you make so many assumptions about me-

instead of reinterpreting for you what you think or say- i will paste verbatim in the interest of truth-

S- "how you could practice so many different religions and not find satisfaction in any of them."

why assume i found no satisfaction?
of course i did- each experience being a springboard into deeper insights-
but satisfaction is not complacency-

since you have spent so much energy making observations of a personal speculation-

i will make an observation using exactly the information youve supplied- and make one speculation- the first one ive ever made in reference to you-

your family, for 1,956 years- and yourself since birth- have been catholic-
it is possible that there are some emotional attachments to catholicism that make you cling to dogma and rearrange what you encounter to support a predetermined outcome.

for instance- you have simply completely ignored the first commandment in the question i proposed-

its not possible to harmonize the contraditcion if you ignore one variable in an equation.

and yet- you interpret literally- the verse from John to validate a pre-existing idea-(divinity of Jesus) and it is a vague reference at best- requiring a solid belief in the divinity of Jesus to rest upon-

that would mean- if you are consistent- that you would interpret the first commandment literally also.
you solve that conflict by ignoring the entire half of the contradiction-

well, of course if you remove one variable form an equation- you are left with one whole answer-

now the first commandment is not vague- requires no preconceived theology to stand upon-

actually- even though it is quite clear- and much stronger- you chose to ignore it completely-

it is the roots and trunk of the tree of judaism (which Jesus practiced) and you choose instead to concentrate on an outer leaf in that tree-

but without the roots, and trunk to stabilize the tree- the leaf will die-
the trunk and roots don't need the leaf-
the leaf cannot exist without them-

lets call 1st commandment A
and John 14:8-11 B

A+B=X ( X being the conclusion you reached-
or divinity of Jesus)

but A actually precedes and cancels out B

A definitely does not equal X

so your equation is B=X

i notice there are many times that you also make the choice to interpret the bible symbolically- or boradly- and most liberally.

consistently- the same criteria should apply equally to all interpretation-

now, i will propose that some of your confusion regardng how to understand me comes not from my own inconsistency-
but your pre-determined perception of what you imagine me to be-

and my journey often does not conform to that perception- hence the many suppositions and assumptions and misunderstandings on your part- in regards to what i think or believe

as for John 14- the greek word homoousius (consubstantial- i.e. "one in being with the father") from whence you get your idea that Jesus is god- does NOT exist in scripture- but is an addition of the greek bishops at constantinople when they convenedthe council of nicea some 300 years after the ministry of jesus-

an interesting study if you're up for it-

go to the source is my motto

now that is all logic- and reason-

form the perspective of pure spirituality-
my own path led me to venture outside of the comforting and comfortable realm of the familiar-
so - for about 2 years- i prayed with earnestness and a certain spiritual desparation-

i asked god to lead me to worship (her/him) in the true way that (he/she) wanted me to-
NOT just that i was comfortable with-

that is the actual prayer- you know the anser already that i received-

i have no reason to believe that my answer is wrong- and your idea of what my answer should have been- is right.

o- one thing on a personal note- it is kind of annoying to me-

i suggest you spend 30 years of your life as a celibate before you attmept to instruct others as to its realities and hardships-

it is the other side of the coin of the celibate priest giving advice on sex-

so if you come up with a full answer to the complete question- let me know.

or, if you like- i can certainly come back with a great deal of reasoning from your own scripture to support the 1st commandment-

or you can just ignore the request-
whichever you like-
peace

I disagree with the Pope. When religion becomes political, it becomes about ascendency over others, not about spirituality or the quality of ones soul.

Those who seek to develop greater goodness then become drowned out by power mongers.

Muslim Tarek Fateh also makes this point:

Those who USE religion as a political vehicle seek to destroy our liberties and also destroy the heart of their own religion.

As long as Islamists around the world use Islam as a political ideology in the footsteps of such jihadi ideologues as Hassan Al-Banna, Syed Qutb, Abul Ala Maudoodi and Ayatollah Khomeini, their Muslim, and non-Muslim opponents will have the right to challenge this ideology with full vigour. Hiding behind the skirts of religion to avoid being critiqued, these fascist cults demonstrate not just cowardice, but a cunningness that is fooling large segments of the liberal-left intelligentsia in the West, which will be among the first to suffer if and when Islamists use liberal democracy to extinguish its light."

Victoria, as a Christian by conviction, who has not felt the need to change my religion in spite of my openness to truth and beauty in all religions, it is difficult for me to understand why you, obviously a deeply sensitive person spiritually, who went so far as to be in long training to be a nun, would abandon Christianity even if you did not feel called to a celibate life as a nun. Real celibacy is a rare calling; real faithfulness to the vow of celibacy requires an extremely deep prayer life made somewhat difficult when one is in an active order (even more difficult if one is living alone in a diocese as a parish priest without the daily support of a religious community) in constant contact with the "temptations of the flesh" in a world that is not dedicated to celibacy.

It is somewhat difficult for me to understand how you could practice so many different religions and not find satisfaction in any of them. Having read the Quran and some Scripture from other religions myself, I do not see how you claim that Islam has the answers that other religions could not give you. It is one thing for someone who is born into a Muslim family and Islamic culture, but for you as a Catholic in long years of training to be a nun, who practised other religions?

It is informative to know what drives a Catholic away from Christianity and what answers exist in Islam that other religions do not have.

Victoria, as a Christian by conviction, who has not felt the need to change my religion in spite of my openness to truth and beauty in all religions, it is difficult for me to understand why you, obviously a deeply sensitive person spiritually, who went so far as to be training to be a nun, would abandon Christianity even if you did not feel called to a celibate life as a nun. Real celibacy is a rare calling; real faithfulness to the vow of celibacy requires an extremely deep prayer life made somewhat difficult when one is in an active order (even more difficult if one is living alone in a diocese as a parish priest without the daily support of a religious community) in constant contact with the "temptations of the flesh" in a world that is not dedicated to celibacy.

It is somewhat difficult for me to understand how you could practice so many different religions and not find satisfaction in any of them. Having read the Quran myself, I do not see how you claim that it has the answers that other religions could not give you. It is one thing

Victoria, your question regarding the divinity of Jesus is a simple one to answer. I have addressed it several months ago on this forum.

The Gospel of John 14:8-11 gives the answer:

8 Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."

9 Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

10 Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.

-----

The concept of God taking a human form, Incarnation, is very easy for a Hindu to understand for it is very much a part of Hindu belief. Remember my non-Christian ancestors were Hindu Brahmins? Based on the case Apostle Thomas made, they were convinced that Jesus Christ was a historical Avatar. I have found no reason to doubt the eye witness account of Jesus and His life and teachings in Bible.

hello again soja-
i have a mild curiosity as to your rationale for that question-
i havent found a satisfactory one yet- and some pretty heavy hitters have tried- ("it's a mystery" just doesn't make it, does it?)

i hope you don't pull a disappearing act or ignore it alteogether-

if you have an answer-you'll answer
if you don't have an answer-you won't.

soja- well, "literally thousands of posts" is a bit hyperbolic-
but i am flattered that you have been so keenly interested in my opinion to read all of my posts (even if you misremeber some basic facts about my history)

ill propose that your statement- asking where a comparison is being made- is a comparison!

"You refer repeatedly to a competition where there is none. I have remained a Christian all along... You on the other hand... Where exactly does a comparison, leave alone a competition, in our spiritual journeys exist?

dont worry so much about my personality-

you seem determined to convince me (or yourself) of the superiority of catholicism to islam-

but i cannot make any such attmept- (nor am i inclined to) as that same religion of islam demnads that no aspersions or negativities be cast at other beliefs-

ive told you many times- i cannot and will not critique another faith negatively-

and long soliloquies of a personal nature are out of place here-

i can however, ask you to answer a seminal question that i asked myself-

how do you reconcile the first commandment-
to worship no other gods before or beside God?
with the worship of Jesus(may He be blessed)
as God?

there is a contradiction and conflict there that cannot resolve itself-

either you honor the 1st commandment- and reject the divinity of Jesus(ata)

or you honor Jesus as God and reject the 1st commandment.
(which you've already stated you believe and honor)

but one negates the other-
the 2 ideas cannot exist together in harmony- they cancel each other out-

its a frightening question to ponder-
but we don't avoid questions because we fear the answer may alter our views-

for me, this - and many other questions propelled me to seek answers-

peace soja- let me know what you come up with-

Jesus said what?? The fact is that Jseus and Moses did not even exist at all. The only reference to these two people appares in religions writings.
Now the real scary thing here is that God had sex with a married women!!
why was that? and she had to be a virgin? hum is't one of the ten commandments addressing this issue: "thou shall not covnet thy neighbors wife" And how could Mary be a virgin? she was married. Was it not the custom for the village elders to watch the newly married couple consummate the marrage?

Next you will tell me the world is only 6000 years old. Then move to the bible codes, the word search to end all word serach games.

Then you will kill me for not beliving in your god, and the fear I might spread the word that the 3 major religions are nothing but lie's.

It was god fearing religious people that flew plans into bulidings 7 years ago..

Another link of the speech of Mark Thompson, Director General of BBC (Faith and the Media), since my earlier post seems to have disappeared:

http

video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3130671015893767744

The BBC link to the speech: Faith & the Media, by Mark Thompson, Director General of BBC

http:

//www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/speeches/stories/thompson_faith.shtml

Mary

Many thanks for mentioning the talk at the Westminster Cathedral by the Director General of the BBC, Mark Thompson: Faith & the Media. I watched it on a video link. It is simply terrific! I'm excited about the programs he mentioned are in the works of the BBC too.

Here the link (there is no www:)

http

smalldifferences.blogspot.com/2008/04/mark-thompson-faith-media.html

Victoria, you have posted literally thousands of comments on this forum since November 2006. Anyone who has been participating in the discussions since the beginning or anyone who takes the time to read through all the comments from the beginning would know that I have only put together a summary of your spiritual journey from your own posts.

You are an ex-Catholic Franciscan nun in training, now a zealous Muslim. That makes your spiritual journey unlike most others. Your interpretation of religious/spiritual matters is coloured by your personal journey, just as mine is coloured by my biography and my unique spiritual journey. I see nothing wrong in calling attention to a fact that serves to clarify each one's position.

You refer repeatedly to a competition where there is none. I have remained a Christian all along while opening myself with deep respect to the wisdom in other religions in order to learn from them. You on the other hand have practiced one religion after the other, rejecting each one before moving on to the next. Where exactly does a comparison, leave alone a competition, in our spiritual journeys exist?

I'm still very much on a journey, needing to start all over again repeatedly within the Christian tradition. You have found all your answers in your practice of Islam. Where is the comparison, leave alone the competition?

its not really a book to read, its an investigation into the self to live-

it took me 2 years to get through it-
deceptively deep for its length-

soja- i have answered your questions- but you didnt remeber what i said-

asking you if you , as a catholic- submit yourself to the authority of the pope-
'is the first personal question ive asked you in a years worth of speaking to each other-

youve invented a history and series of events which dont exist-

ive remarked before- that your interest in the details of my life go beyond mere curioisty-

as you have misrepresented what i actually have told you- with rhetorical questions posing as statements- which are incorrect-

its not a competition dear-

you to your souls journey and me to mine-

we dont diminish each other by our
respective faiths-

i preferred to see the best in your observations about what i know or dont know-
so i chose to interpret it as sarcasm- rather than condescension or oneupsmanship- or just unkindness-

when you come with a question that isn't veiled in building some future critique or attack-

im here to answer-

but with gentle inquiry soja-

i dont elaborate on exactly why i left the church beause to do so- i will have to negatively criticize catholicism-

and i respect others too much to do that.

perhaps it has gone unnoticed by yourself- but i dont do that.

id rather be considered a fool than malicious or backbiting.

CCNL

If you believe in the value of the Ten (according to you twelve?) Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount, then I am at peace.

I am convinced that every Catholic should be taught to reflect on the Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount repeatedly over their lifetime to revive the Church. There is an urgent need to emphasize the basics of our Christian faith. That will lead to an automatic sense of unity with other Christians, and people of other religions.

I still value the Sacraments and the great rituals and music which adds beauty and meaning to the practice of the faith. As human beings we need rituals and ceremonies too, times to fast, times to celebrate births and marriages, mourn with those who have lost loved ones - all as a community. The Jewish tradition is full of beautiful tradition of rituals and we as Christians have our foundation in Judaism.

A religion which consists only of a set of teachings may appeal to scholarly types like you, but the average human being longs for more, an integration of religion into the life of the community in many ways with rituals and feasts.

Mary, thank you once again for your kind words and the reference.

I'm happy to be a Catholic. I feel blessed doubly because I'm both a part of a direct Apostolic tradition (St Thomas) in India with a rich history and tradition, also a part of the universal Roman Catholic church. I feel very free in the church and appreciate the universal nature of it.

As to how God gives His grace to others, I do not make any claims. I'm convinced that God draws all people to Himself in different ways. Only God can be judge of a human heart. I believe that all truth, goodness and beauty comes from God, no matter where it is found. People approach God in different ways and God responds to all human beings, without restricting His grace to Catholics or Christians alone. Verses in the Book of Acts, quoting Peter confirms that. That is why inter-religious dialogue interests me so much.

Dom Bede Griffiths, whom I knew personally for nearly nine years, and with whom I spent several months at his Christian Ashram, was a pioneer in inter-religious dialogue. He engaged with Hinduism and Buddhism intensely without giving up Christianity. Anyone who doubts his Christian conviction must know that he used the Jesus Prayer as his mantra in meditation. It is taken from the Eastern tradition. He integrated Hindu rituals into Mass, giving it a Christian meaning. He adopted prayers from the Syrian rite, while remaining faithful to his Benedictine tradition. The Ashram was a combination of the Benedictine monastery and a Hindu Ashram.

Victoria, you wrote,

MARY- i think soja was being sarcastic-

if either of you truly want to get to the heart and soul of catechism- read st john's dark night of the soul-
(in catholicism) i can think of no superior blend of contemplation (he's one of the doctors of the church) combined with serious intropsepction necessary to attain that elusive state of grace-

April 28, 2008 12:58 PM

--------------

One thing I can confirm Victoria in the way you mind-read me, you are not really adept at reading people's words and intentions.

If you had really understood what St John of the Cross wrote in his book, you would not have found it necessary to leave the Franciscan convent, leave alone Catholicism and Christianity.

Victoria, you wrote, "ok soja- i was just curious- you've asked me many many questions whcih i've always tried to answer honestly-

if you say you are in submission to the authority of the pope- that is fine.

why didnt you just say so before?

its no big deal- just a simple question-"

April 28, 2008 9:33 AM

----------

Victoria, I meant that the question you asked is a non-question. When I was baptised, I was only eight days old. That was when I was received into the Syro-Malabar Church. I did not have to profess allegiance to the Pope in Rome or allegiance to any priest or Bishop for that matter. It was the same when I received the First Holy Communion and was given Confirmation. Since I have been made a member of the Church without having to take an oath to the effect you imply exists in order to be a Catholic, you might like to explain when you took such an oath in your life, since you were raised by an atheist father and agnostic mother and must have joined the Catholic Church at a later stage in your life.

You have never given the answer to the question several people have asked you:

Why did you join the Catholic Church when you were raised by atheist-agnostic parents?

Why did you join the Franciscan convent to be nun and live there for so many years, and yet not take the vows?

When you decided to leave convent, why did you give up Catholicism?

Why did you give up Christianity?

Why did you practice Judaism, or spend so much time with Jewish scholars and Rabbis?

Why did you practice Buddhism, Hinduism and Wiccan ? Why did you reject all these religions?

Why did you finally decide to become a Muslim? What teaching in Islam did you not find in other religions?

As far as I can remember, you have not answered this at any time. You only mentioned that the answer was too complicated.

Victoria, Soja and Mary,

Once the Catholic Church is "deflawed" and the muck and stench of 2000 years of "voodooing the hoodoo" and the "mumbo jumboing" of atonement and original sin removed, there will be no pope since only the Beatitudes and the Twelve Commandments will be left standing.

MARY- i think soja was being sarcastic-

if either of you truly want to get to the heart and soul of catechism- read st john's dark night of the soul-
(in catholicism) i can think of no superior blend of contemplation (he's one of the doctors of the church) combined with serious intropsepction necessary to attain that elusive state of grace-

Soja, yes, it is through the sacraments and the mass that Catholics access God's grace. (Hopefully Victoria won't want an explanation of grace!)

I do think, however, that Catholicism is hard, well, all Christianity is hard. A distant God, a pure spirit, the Creator who will not show his face...that we can allow. But the same God become man, the same God who showed us his face and his grace and told us how to live and showed us how to die. Now *that* is hard. Read somewhere that whilst Protestants want to know how to gain salvation, Catholics somehow cannot get over the fact of the Incarnation. Hence the palpable difference of feel in the Catholic mass and sacraments.

If you have a chance read the Mark Thompson lecture "Faith in the Media" (...in the same series as the AofC). It gives a quick history of religion in the 20th c. and at the beginning of the 21st. Well worth a read (IMO better than the AofC and far surpassing Wm. Hague)Just add the www, as thanks to Jacob Jav. we can no longer link)rcdow.org.uk/lectures.

An excerpt:

"And I have what some will regard as a rather counter-intuitive story to tell. It is how, over a generation – as it happens over roughly the time I’ve been involved in broadcasting myself – one picture of religion has been replaced by another, more complex, more challenging, in many ways deeper one. I’ll talk about some of the new, seemingly intractable dilemmas that this change has confronted us with. I’ll also try to explain why, when I look to the future of the relationship between faith and the media, what I feel, most of time at least, is hope."

(Most of the folks here are stuck in the old picture of religion. What's happening now is very different. Where we Catholics are in the new scheme of things---well, who knows? But FWIW Mark Thompson is a practicing Catholic--I think I've seen him once or twice at West. Cathedral--and he is hopeful.)

a different kind of nonsense......

________________

Experience Chan! It's not mysterious.
As I see it, it boils down to cause and effect.
Outside the mind there is no Dharma
So how can anybody speak of a heaven beyond?

Experience Chan! It's not a field of learning.
Learning adds things that can be
researched and discussed.
The feel of impressions can't be communicated.
Enlightenment is the only medium of transmission.

Experience Chan! It's not a lot of questions.
Too many questions is the Chan disease.
The best was is just to observe the
noise of the world.
And the answer to your questions?
Ask your own heart.

Experience Chan! It's not the
teachings of disciples.
Such speakers are guests from outside the gate.
The Chan which you are hankering to speak about
Only talks about turtles turning to fish.

Experience Chan! It can't be described.
When you describe it you miss the point.
When you discover that your proofs are
without substance
You'll realize that words are nothing but dust.

Experience Chan! It's experiencing
your own nature!
When you don't fake it and waste time
trying to rub and polish it,
Your Original Self will always shine
through, brighter than bright.

Experience Chan! It's like harvesting treasures.
But donate them to others.
You won't need them.
Suddenly everything will appear before you,
Altogether complete and altogether done.

Experience Chan! Become a follower
who when accepted
Learns how to give up his life and his death.
Grasping this carefully he comes to see clearly.
And then he laughs till he topples the
Cold Mountain ascetics.

Experience Chan! It'll require great skepticism;
But great skepticism blocks those
detours on the road.
Jump off the lofty peaks of mystery.
Turn your heaven and earth inside out.

Experience Chan! Ignore that
superstitious nonsense
That makes some claim that they've attained Chan.
Foolish beliefs are those of
the not-yet-awakened.
And they're the ones who most need
the experience of Chan!

Experience Chan! There's neither distance
nor intimacy,
Observation is like a family treasure.
Whether with eyes, ears, body, nose, or tongue -
It's hard to say which is the most amazing to use.

Experience Chan! There's no class distinction.
The one who bows and the one who is bowed to
are a Buddha unit.
The yoke and its lash are tied to each other.
Isn't this our first principle ..... the one
we should most observe?

Master Xu Yun

MARY- actually it was the niceaen creed i was thinking about in particular-

ok soja- i was just curious- you've asked me many many questions whcih i've always tried to answer honestly-

if you say you are in submission to the authority of the pope- that is fine.

why didnt you just say so before?

its no big deal- just a simple question-

Mary

Many thanks for explaining to Victoria what it means to be a Catholic. Of course I believe in all that you wrote. What keeps me a Catholic by conviction are the Sacraments. I appreciate all the other Christian denominations and have been greatly enriched by contact with them. None of them can give me the satisfaction from the Catholic Sacraments. I'm glad that the Syro-Malabar Church is part of the Roman Catholic Church. I can attend Latin rite Mass anywhere in the world. I have been doing that since about the age of fifteen anyway because I lived in places which did not have a Syro-Malabar church.

Thanks for the UK link you posted.

Victoria,

As a Catholic I (and, I hope, Soja) submit to the authority of the Church and its head, the pope,in areas where it is infallible: which is in respect to essential Christian doctrine. The Church cannot err of these essential points (the Trinity, the resurrection of Christ, original sin and baptism, the Eucharist &tc.) and is very unlikely to err, really, on any matter concerning the faith. I would also suppose that the Church has these characteristics in perpetuity since Christ's promises to the Church have no expiration date.

Theology develops over time. If the Church were prone to errors these would have increased exponentially over the past 2,000 years. This has not been the case. Example: the Nicene Creed, pretty much the same since it was AD 352.

I have no idea how my response to the following comment from Victoria on another thread, ended up here.

VICTORIA:

yes soja- both popes have warned against the mixing of religious traditions that are the base, specifically - of the "christian" (again, not catholic) meditation taught by father keating.

and misleading the flock, setting up shop on their own- are the exact warnings of the church.

so it's a misrepresentation to state that father keating is has the imprimatur of papal authority.

i think you just were not aware of this.

as a catholic, do you submit to the authority of the pope?

you are wiggling all over the place to avoid answering this simple question.

April 27, 2008 11:28 AM

Soja John Thaikattil, Sydney, Australia:
Victoria, Fr Thomas Keating and others like him are not banned by the Pope. They continue to remain priests and form and lead meditation groups in whatever capacity they choose to.

What exactly constitutes validation?

Could you provide exact reference to the warnings issued by the Popes against meditation, even against Christian meditation?

Non-Catholics as far as I know (except Eastern Orthodox Christians) have no contemplative tradition.

Victoria, I was baptized in a Syro-Malabar Church; I received my First Holy Communion in the same denomination. I was given Confirmation by a Bishop of the Syro-Malabar Church and attended Sunday school also in same Church. Not once was I asked the question you ask me, nor was I accused of wiggling all over the place. I'm considered a full fledged Catholic. The Syro-Malabar Church in Kerala is autonomous, follows a Syrian-rite liturgy, but it remains a part of the Roman Catholic Church. So may I ask you on what authority and to what purpose, you, as an ex-Catholic and a current Muslim ask me this question? I don't think for a moment that you really understand Catholicism. Your meaningless question proves it.

You seem to be poorly informed about the contemplative tradition of the Roman Catholic Church.

Soja,

Are you sure the "Reality Challenged" and Obfuscating Jihadist is who "she" says she is???

After all, this in an open blog with no ID needed for commentators. The panelists' IDs are obviously true. Be wary, however, of the
commentators and their motives e.g. the Jihadist says she is a Sunni. If so, she comes weighted down with the discrimination and hate for 200 million Islamic Shiites. Note that she never discusses the Shiite problem and never addresses the four "fems" aka flaws, errors, muck and stench of Islam i.e.

1. Belief in "pretty/ugly wingie thingies".

2. Belief that an hallucinating, illiterate Arab did actually talk to the "pretty Gabriel" in the hot "Gabe" cave and therein received the warmongering and anti-female words and resultant laws now listed in the koran.

3. That Sunnis are superior to Shiites in all aspects of life. And Shiites think the same way about Sunnis.

4. That Islam is perfect and the koran inherently condones no sin even though the 24/7, 800 year-old blood feud between Sunnis and Shiites gives significant credence that greed, hate, suicides, assassinations, maiming, and murder are condoned by the koran. Male Islamics to include imams and clerics having multiple wives also gives significant credence to the sins of rape, adultery, lust and polygamy. The condoned treatment of these wives gives credence that the koran allows the sins of hatred, anger and greed.

The Jihadist "paints" a rosy picture of Islam but since "she" never addresses the significant negatives, one must assume her Islamic brainwashing is severe and/or she is simply very afraid of the Islamic truth squads. The latter issue extends to all commentators on this blog e.g. describing Mohammed as an illiterate, warmongering, womanizing, hallucinating, lust and greed driven, long-dead Arab which is historically true would be an automatic death warrant in Muslim countries.

Hi Farnaz!

Thanks for the tip to skip CCNL. I'm used to reading exactly the same lines he has been writing since Nov 06. He is the scholar who can't be bothered to respond with more than cut and paste jobs of the one original response he prepared eighteen months ago for the On Faith forum. If you have read him once, you have read him always.

I enjoyed reading the poem you posted. Thanks.

Best wishes
Soja

CCNL

Thanks for the references. I'd rather be brainwashed by your definition than be the kind of scholar that you are. It doesn't add to your cause if all you can do is try to bring division among believers, instead of encouraging dialogue and unity; trying to destroy religions rather than add real depth and meaning to them. Jews, Christians and Muslims believe in God as the Creator of the universe and we share many religious aspects in common. Why not call attention to that in your scholarship, and try to bring harmony?

Jihadist is a charming, witty and extremely intelligent woman who is doing her part in trying to find common ground with all religions. We need more and more Muslim women like her! She has the power to influence thousands of Muslims in her country of adoption(Malaysia) and her country of birth (Indonesia). She can be a great inspiration to Muslims in Europe because her mother is Dutch. Why not encourage her efforts and support her, rather than impose your kind of "scholarship" on her?

Hmmm, disturbed by the reality of it all?

Well, that is part of the education process. Once again for a public review of the flaws and errors in it all to refute 2000 years or more of religious brainwashing:

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was either the embellishment of the lives of three different men or a mythical character as was Moses, the "Tablet-Man" who talked to burning bushes and made much magic in Egypt.

1.5 million Conservative Jews and their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT.
simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

2. Jesus was an illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter/simple preacher man who suffered from hallucinations and who has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics. earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

For added "pizzazz", Catholic/Christian theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "filicider".

3. Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingie thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

4. Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, who also had embellishing/hallucinating/ plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the assassination of Bhutto, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.

And who funds this muck and stench of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

5. Hinduism (from an online Hindu site) - "Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centered and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’."

The caste/laborer system and cow worship are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism."

6. Buddhism- "Buddhism began in India about 500 years before the birth of Christ. The people living at that time had become disillusioned with certain beliefs of Hinduism including the caste system, which had grown extremely complex. The number of outcasts (those who did not belong to any particular caste) was continuing to grow."
"However, in Buddhism, like so many other religions, fanciful stories arose concerning events in the life of the founder, Siddhartha Gautama (fifth century B.C.):"

Archaeological discoveries have proved, beyond a doubt, his historical character, but apart from the legends we know very little about the circumstances of his life. e.g. Buddha by one legend was supposedly talking when he came out of his mother's womb.

Bottom line: There are many good ways of living but be aware of the hallucinations, embellishments, lies and myths surrounding the founders and foundations of said rules of life.

Oh, what the heck:

Sailing To Byzantium
William Butler Yeats

That is no country for old men. The young
In one another’s arms, birds in the trees
—Those dying generations—at their song,
The salmon-falls, the mackerel-crowded seas,
Fish, flesh, or fowl, commend all summer long
Whatever is begotten, born, and dies.
Caught in that sensual music all neglect
Monuments of unageing intellect.

II

An aged man is but a paltry thing,
A tattered coat upon a stick, unless
Soul clap its hands and sing, and louder sing
For every tatter in its mortal dress,
Nor is there singing school but studying
Monuments of its own magnificence;
And therefore I have sailed the seas and come
To the holy city of Byzantium.

III

O sages standing in God’s holy fire
As in the gold mosaic of a wall,
Come from the holy fire, perne in a gyre,
And be the singing-masters of my soul.
Consume my heart away; sick with desire
And fastened to a dying animal
It knows not what it is; and gather me
Into the artifice of eternity.

IV

Once out of nature I shall never take
My bodily form from any natural thing,
But such a form as Grecian goldsmiths make
Of hammered gold and gold enamelling
To keep a drowsy Emperor awake;
Or set upon a golden bough to sing
To lords and ladies of Byzantium
Of what is past, or passing, or to come.

Pagan musings.

CCNL:

You scholar among scholars. You refer Soja to Josefus?

Tossed, tossed, tossed, almost all of it tossed.

Best advice?

An [middle-aged} man is but a paltry thing.
"clap its hands and sing, and louder sing
For every tatter in its mortal dress,
Nor is there singing school but studying

Aologies to WBY.
.................................................

Soja,

Skip the great ccnl scholar. He knows not what he does, thinks, reads, or writes.

Best,
Farnaz

Oh there "Reality Challenged" and Obfuscating Jihadist,

Soja and I differ on many points. I recommended to her various sources for catching up to the historic Jesus. Also noted were some of the flaws, errors, muck and stench of our current Catholic Church.

As you know, we have already caught up with the warmongering, hallucinating, greed-lust driven, womanizing Mohammed.

Your last commentary shows also the immediate need for the Five Step Programming for Deflawing Islam. Once again and free of charge:

Using "The 77 Branches of Islamic "faith" a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi as a starting point. In it, he explains the essential virtues that reflect true "faith" (iman) through related Qur’anic verses and Prophetic sayings." i.e. a nice summary of the Koran and Islamic beliefs.

"1. Belief in Allah"

"aka as God, Yahweh, Zeus, Jehovah, Mother Nature, etc." should be added to your cleansing neurons.

"2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence."

Evolution and the Big Bang or the "Gib Gnab" (when the universe starts to recycle) are more plausible and the "akas" for Allah should be included if you continue to be a "creationist".

"3. To believe in the existence of angels."
A major item for neuron cleansing. Angels/devils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations, e.g. Hittites, to explain/define natural events, contacts with their gods, big birds, sudden winds, protectors during the dark nights, etc. No "pretty/ugly wingy thingies" ever visited or talked to Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or Joseph or Joe Smith. Today we would classify angels as fairies and "tinker bells". Modern devils are classified as the demons of the demented.

4. " To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore."

Another major item to delete. There are no books written in the spirit state of Heaven (if there is one) just as there are no angels/"pwtfft"s to write/publish/distribute them. The Koran, OT, NT etc. are simply books written by humans for humans.

Prophets were invented by ancient scribes typically to keep the uneducated masses in line.

Today we call them fortune tellers.
Prophecies are also invalidated by the natural/God/Allah gifts of Free Will and Future.

"5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) alone."
Mohammed spent thirty days fasting in a hot cave before his first contact with Allah aka God etc. via a "pretty wingy thingy".

Common sense demands a neuron deletion of #5. #5 is also the major source of Islamic violence i.e. turning Mohammed's "fast, hunger-driven" hallucinations into horrible reality for unbelievers.

Accept these five "cleansers" and we guarantee a complete recovery from your Islamic ways!!!!

Imagine the CEO of a global organization telling their senior vice-presidents that they should resist any tendency from their customer using their products and services in manners not recommended by the corporation.

Additionally the CEO says that they must make special efforts to stop the tendency of the customers not to openly show that they use the company's products. This will be a missed opportunity of growth trough one of the must effective low cost promotional tools in the market: imitation.

Now compare that business speech with what the Pope said. Specially with this two expressions:

"Any tendency to treat religion as a private matter must be resisted."

"...We cannot separate our love for him from our commitment to the building up of the Church and the extension of his Kingdom."

Sally touched on the money perspective on this tread in her post of April 24, 7:31 AM. I just wanted to express more specifically that the Pope was talking strategy with the guys that lead the business in the field, but at the same time he is adding supernatural and nebulous speak for the faithful.

Not that I believe that the major organized religions are there only for business, but it is an important part of the them, together with power and other ingredients.

Talking about religious enterprises, they have a big advantange. The product and services are marketed for the afterlife: you don’t worry about warranties nor maintenace: God will pay those bills...

Peace to all,

JAC

Concerned the Christian Now Liberated,

Now on to Soja? One of the most reasonable, calm and considered people in On Faith threads?

Soja to CCNL : "The seeds of “reality” sown in my mind? You hope against hope that I might buy your virulent anti-Christian views that you pass off for scholarship? I suggest you get ready to wait forever and a day."

Moi : Good for her. Ditto for me.

And to add that you barely conceal an enveloping, encompassing bigotry of beliefs and believers under the cover of "scholarship" borrowed from and parrotted here from the Jesus Seminarians.

It will be a cold day in hell before I take your posts as sincere.

Come hell or highwater, "we" will not go by your pass/fail self-set "reality barometers"

Is your "Uncle" really pleased and satisfied with "your" work in On Faith threads?

Is your "Uncle" really pleased with "you" using the name of the "enemy" whoever and whatever that is?

Come to mamma. Give me "your" best shots of name calling and vilifications of the Prophet, Islam and Muslims.

Come to mamma pussycat, to the one beyond "your" reach and grasp after all these months and many posts directed at and against.....

Here is the link to the ArchbisophofCanterbury's lecture on religion and spirituality: (just add the www)
rcdow.org.uk/lectures/rcdow.org.uk/lectures

Part of the Cardinal's series of lectures at Westminster Cathedral on faith in the mod. world. Kind of like this series but minus the occasional rants and spams.

In a sermon in Memphis you told of John the Baptist as one proclaiming the coming of the kingdom of heaven versus Jesus following him proclaiming its actual presence... Is this idea related to the idea of the eternal now, i.e., this present existence is all there is or ever will be? I personally find it hard (considering evolutionary thought) to consider an actual after-life?

I agree that religion will lose its own soul if it becomes a private affair, and that is a good thing for the world when it does happen.

Mankind is purposely individual and expresses differences from the individual viewpoint, even through the expressions of its eternal, different fingerprints and faces of separateness and individuality as opposed to 'belonging' to a group, or religion.

Individualism is where mankind is headed increasingly in his, her, and all the differences in between his and her, in our eternal futures of evolution by the process of eternal reincarnations of the souls of mankind.

The souls of mankind are 'seeded' eternally into new human bodies being born at the earth time of death of a body of mankind, releasing the soul for the next experience in eternal reincarnation.

Religion is only a temporary stage of grouping people, even as psychologists tend to group ideas about people's various and individualistic actions of individual free will. Grouping people together by religions and psychologists is a compromising system of the basic free will to be individual expressions of god in the material worlds of living (Cosmos).

Everything in existence is individually different by design of natural law (god's will), and resists being grouped by that fact alone. Man is eternal god on earth, and religion is a power grab over the idea of god, and over the mind of man. Love, Armand

Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,

You take Sonja to task for picking Catholic dogma of her choosing and you yourself left Catholicism because of the onerous teachings. And yet you pick and choose the passages of the koran that you agree with and disregard the rest.

Typical "wishy-wash" thinking on your p