Readers’ Responses to Our Question (30)

Mr. Mark,

I'm saddened to see that you are leaving. I have greatly enjoyed and learned from every one of your posts. PLEASE keep trying. Thank you for all in the past and I hope to see more from you in the future.

Dear On Faith Friends -

I was blogging OnFaith from my home computer this weekend, and every post I wrote was being embargoed by the blog owner (the blog owner being technically inept, my posts from work seem to escape the dreaded "under review" black hole, ergo, this response today).

Apparently, I've been flagged as an undesirable voice on this forum. I guess I'm no longer welcome here.

As I can't and won't waste office time posting here, that does it for me. Bye-bye to all the friends and engaged opponents I've made here over the past year and a half.

To my atheist friends - good luck. Your days here may be numbered as well.

As always,

I was ten the night Martin Luther King, Jr. was murdered. Whenever he is mentioned, my childhood memories come flooding into my mind. I find the way I processed information back then very telling of the society I was born into.

I was growing up in the segregated south. I did not know it was segregated. I was Catholic- the sixth of nine children. Every week we had a black woman come to our home to help my mom with the cleaning. At the same time I was learning about slavery in school. One of the things I was taught was that slaves were not allowed to marry and that their families were sold apart. Over time, it became clear that the woman who came to our home, Elizabeth, was pregnant. At that time, I think I was in the fourth grade, I thought a woman was able to have a baby after she had a wedding ring. Elizabeth did not have a wedding. I asked my mom how Elizabeth got to have a baby when she didn’t have a wedding ring. My mom said,” Colored people can just do that.” This is how I processed that: Because man’s laws prevented blacks from having a wedding ring, God in his infinite power gave them the ability to have children without a wedding ring. God was more powerful that man.

When my school was finally integrated, it was one black girl coming to my classroom. The day before, the teacher stood in front of our class and told us a little colored girl was going to be joining our class and we were to be nice to her because she was just like us. When she arrived, I was surprised she was dressed so nicely. She was wearing what we called “Sunday clothes” and patent leather shoes. Class went as usual, and then at recess several of the students ran up to her and asked to touch her hair. She said it was OK if she could touch our hair. We touched each others hair. Then we ran outside and played. I don’t remember anything unusual happening the rest of the year.

The final level of my elementary school was the 7th grade. At that time, there was a very handsome black boy in my class, Mike. One afternoon, after school, a group of us including Mike, went to a classmate’s house to play pool. When my girlfriend’s mom came to pick us up in her car, she seemed very agitated. As she was pulling out of the driveway she looked at her daughter and asked,” Is that a n*****I see in there?” My friend said he was our classmate. Her mother said she didn’t care who he was, decent people didn’t go around with n******. Her mother was Catholic and also the wife of our school principle. Those factors shocked me but I was especially shocked because she was a grown up. That was the first time I heard a living person say that word. I told my mom when I got home. My mom said that some people just don’t know any better.
My conclusion: Some grown ups are mean because that don’t know better.

In high school, I was junior class president. The secretary of our class was black. When it came time for homecoming week, each class was to build a float for the homecoming parade. The secretary, Teresa, offered to have the float built at her house. I made a flyer to let everyone know where we would be building the float (Teresa’s address) and posted it. A white female classmate came up to me and told me no one would go to that neighborhood. When I asked why, she said it was a colored neighborhood. Many other students told me the same thing. One even volunteered to have the float built at his home. I didn’t know what to do. I didn’t even think to go to an adult for help. I thought if I insisted on building it at Teresa’s, no one would come and it would be embarrassing to Teresa. Also, everyone would know, would have to admit, we were all prejudiced. I told Teresa that I had made a mistake. Someone else had volunteered to have the float built at their home and had already made special arrangements with their parents. It was a lie. I knew as I said it that we both knew it was a lie. She was very gracious and even came to work on the float. When people say they have no regrets, it’s hard for me to believe. I regret the way I handled that situation. It was the first big test of my integrity. And I failed. I knew my father would be disappointed in me. So, I never told him.

In my senior year I was on friendly terms with a black girl in one of my classes. I knew she lived in an old plantation house and I wanted to see the insides. I asked her if I could. She invited me over after school. Her brother came home and seemed disgruntled. He asked his sister,” What’s that cracker doing here?” She told him I was a classmate. He didn’t say anything. I had never heard the term “cracker”. I thought it was a term of endearment, like “cookie”. I thought he liked me but I didn’t understand why he seemed unhappy about it.

In college I had a black roommate and black classmates, but I never really had a black “friend”. When I went to NYU, Yolanda King was in the theatre department a year ahead of me. She had her father’s face. She seemed to be very sophisticated and seemed to have lots of friends, black and white.

In my thirties, while I was working as a temp, I saw the pope when he came to Los Angeles. It was a very disappointing experience. One of the men who worked at the company- a black man, asked about my experience. Afterwards, he talked to about the Bible. What he had to say was very interesting to me. I began to study with Bible with him and his wife. Three years later, I became one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. I now have many “friends” of many races. When I hear Obama talk about the most segregated hour in America being on a Sunday, I just want to invite him to a Kingdom Hall. It’s a rainbow of love. Anyway, these are my thoughts on this day.

Gideon, the title "Reverend" was originally an adjective, as in "The Reverend Mr. Whoosinflotz" and some churches still use it that way. (The adjective meant sort of a cross between respected and learned.) The rest is just the normal evolution of the way we use language. By the way the scriptural reference wasn't precisely "reverend;" I'm guessing it was a Greek or Hebrew term ;)

MLK was leading a successful peasant rebellion against the US elites, and for this reason he was eliminated. It is no accident that he has been replaced with a variety of fascist pets that spew divide and conquer hatred (Sharpton, Wright, etc) and that accomplish nothing for black Americans.

Blacks have no power to choose their own leaders. This is done by the media, which answers to the government (read Christopher Simpson's 'Blowback').

Media such as this, CNN, NYT are the ones that have deliberately elevated these uncle toms, while slandering those that spread a message of tolerance and self reliance. MLK would be shocked at these developments.

Worthy of a recycle!!

With the assassination of MLK, we will never know if he would have come to grips with the flaws and errors of Christianity. Considering his intelligence, one would assume he would.

I can almost hear that speech now.

"After careful review my fellow Christians, it is apparent to my mind and soul that we have been fed significant mumbo-jumbo with respect to the life of Jesus.

Brothers and Sisters stop and read about the real Jesus. Develop a new view!!! Jesus was a simple, illiterate preacher man. The Beatitudes are pure Jesus. His giving to Caesar what was Caesar's is pure Jesus. The rest was embellishment upon embellishment of the life of said simple preacher man!!! The "miracles" were added to compete with the local "voodooers of the hoodoo", the resurrection was added to compete with Roman and Greek gods and the "pretty wingie thingies" and "demons of the demented added to continue the fear and superstitions of the ancients!!!!!"

Free at Last, Free at Last!!!!!

CCNL,

I don't know - I don't live there now. When I was a kid, my neighborhood had one black family, but they kind of kept to themselves. But, judging from what my parents tell me, a few affluent blacks are moving into our formerly whitebread neighborhood.

Victoria - Yeah, baby! Yinzers rule! Go Steelers!

“Every man must decide whether he will walk in the light of creative altruism or in the darkness of destructive selfishness.” Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

Apparently a lot of people since none of the talking heads here other than Chopra and Jacoby have even gotten close. And even they only see one side of the racial divide.

GARYD - who would have expected otherwise??

In my case time has provided a good bit of perspective. And some interesting theories.

The Assassination of Martin Luther King Jr. has had several devastating effects on race relations in America:

1. The reduction of the NAACP into a cartel of ambulance chasing lawyers.

2. The destruction, not by the people you would expect, of the concept of true racial equality in America where in the government has no say in life's economic losers and winners but where one's own talents reign first and foremost in such decisions and the government is no longer any one's scape goat for failure.

3.The cementing of the very nearly obscene Cone's Version of Black Liberation theology as a major underpinning of race relations in American where in if you aren't black you are beyond all doubt a racist.

I was too young to remember King's assassination. What I do know is that King has the same effect on me as great jazz artists,-other great black cultural figures in general. And that is the effect of being beyond race--an America beyond race. In fact I would say great artists have had more of an effect on me than Martin Luther King.

We have to recognize that when we speak of transcending racial problems that there are different methods and that art is just as viable as religion. I doubt we can solve racial problems until we throw all methods at the problem. Take John Coltrane with his "Love Supreme" recording: a combination of spirituality and art and intelligence. I leave the rest of conversation to others....

Gideon - then by your standards we could eliminate virtually the entire Protestant clergy
- not a bad idea. On the other hand, very few indeed have had the positive social impact of a Martin Luther King, so no big loss.

Would that more of you religoius types could be the positive inspiration for so many that he was. Of course he had his flaws.... if you would offer just one example of an unflawed and perfect Christian that has a documented birth certificate, by all means produce it now.

What a pain in the rear you pompous, self-righteous fundamentalist egomaniacs are, when all is said and done. Imagine a person such as yourself having a corner on the truth - on 'a cold day in hell', as the saying goes.

Thanks for contributing nothing at all to the conversation. I couldn't let your comment go by without remarking on the absurdity of it.

Never trust anyone calling himself or herself "Reverend." That includes Dr. King, the preacher and womanizer.

The word "Reverend" appears only once in the entire Bible and is ascribed to God Himself: "Reverend and Holy is His Name." No one who knows God or has seen God would have the audacity to take the name. Those who do, are all frauds of the worst sort.

hi athena- my father (and his sibligs) attended 5th avenue high school!

i attended epiphany catholic school in the early 70s- (across from the civic arena, for athena)and there were 600 african american kids in that school- and 11 white ones- (4 from my family).
and all of them were getting over the shock of having their community burned-

how do you account for that lib? it was 38 years ago!
i moved to carnegie as a teen- a suburb about 6 miles outside of pittsburgh-

i can say with confidence more than half the kids i grew up with ended up in interacial marriages or alliances-

that was 25 years ago lib-

10 years ago the city council of pittsburgh was proposing implementing a 'gentrification' program in the very hill district previously mentioned-

a solidly african american community-

the proposal was based upon a model being enacted throughout america-

white people, tired of the long commutes from the suburbs- began looking with acquisitive eyes at the city adjacent land of the inner city dwellers(always african american by coinicidence)
and plotting how they could trick the current land holders to give it up-

cheerful agents fanned the hill district planting images of happy african americans living side by side with equally thrilled white people in the suburbs, their kids playing together on green grass, mowing their lawns- having barbecues with their welcoming neighbors....

subsidized tract homes for everyone!

the reality of the situation though- had been played out already in atlanta,

scores of eager young potential suburbanites sold their property- whose value immediately skyrocketed untold times past what theyd been paid for it-

and shipped out to white suburbia only to discover that they couldnt afford the cars necessary for suburban survival-

and the only public transportation available only took them to the local malls- which were packed with mcdonald's and kmarts with help wanted signs- because even the teenagers of the locals wouldnt take those jobs!

instant slave labor force!

abd the cohesion of their former community was destroyed by their lack of physical proximity to each other-
divide and conquer my good man-

i raised these potential problems up at the city council meetings-(repeatedly) and organized with some other hill residents to galvanize the homeowners into rejecting these offers as a block- and the gentrification didnt happen.

who says you cant fight city hall?

the statistics of african american men in our prison system (the largest population of imprisoned people on the planet are in america btw) especially for drug related crimes- when the overwhelming amount of consumers of said drugs are white-
the disproportionate amount of incarcerated heads of households-
shifting that status to the women to burden- where the state supplants the african american male as the provider and authority in the home-
the abysmal stats on wealth retention of african americans compared to white americans- (meaning passing on wealth built up to inheritors), also stats that african americans are living below the wealth level of their parents by a staggering 45%(in decline) but the same goes for whites- however its more pronounced in african american community-
inner city schools failing miserably- here in new yorl, less than half of our students even graduate- the list goes on and on-

sorry for the length-
im at work and keep coming back to add stuff and its getting too long here-

yinzers rule!

thanks anonymous-

Martin Luther King,Jr. "Beyond Vietnam: A Time to Break Silence"

"My third reason moves to an even deeper level of awareness, for it grows out of my experience in the ghettoes of the North over the last three years -- especially the last three summers. As I have walked among the desperate, rejected and angry young men I have told them that Molotov cocktails and rifles would not solve their problems. I have tried to offer them my deepest compassion while maintaining my conviction that social change comes most meaningfully through nonviolent action. But they asked -- and rightly so -- what about Vietnam? They asked if our own nation wasn't using massive doses of violence to solve its problems, to bring about the changes it wanted. Their questions hit home, and I knew that I could never again raise my voice against the violence of the oppressed in the ghettos without having first spoken clearly to the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today -- my own government. For the sake of those boys, for the sake of this government, for the sake of hundreds of thousands trembling under our violence, I cannot be silent."

On 4 April 1967,one year before he was assassinated,Martin Luther King spoke at the Riverside Church in New York city.That evening he said:'I could never again raise my voice against the violence of the oppressed in the ghettos without having first spoken clearly to the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today-my own government[1]

Has anything in the thirtysix years between 1967 and 2003 that wold have made him change his mind? Or would he be doulbly confirmed in his opinion after the overt and covert wars and acts of mass killing that successive governments of his country,both Republicans and Democrat,have engaged in since then?

Lets not forget that Matin Luther King jr did nt start out as militant. He began as a persuader,a Believer.In 1964 he won the Nobel peace prize.He was held up by the media as an exemplary Black leader. It was only three years later that Martin Luther King publicly connected the US government's racist war in Vietnan with its racist policies at home.

In 1967 he said

We have repeatdly been faced with the cruel
ironny of watching Negro and white boys on
TV screens as they kill and die together for
a nation that has been unable to seat them
together in the same schools.So we watch them
in brutual solidarity burning the huts of a
poor village,but we realize they would hardly
live on the same block in Detroit.[2]

He said, The problem of racism,the problem of economic exploitation,and the problem of war are all tied together.These are the triple evil that are interrelated.[3]

Woud he tell the public today that it is right for the US government to export its cruelties- its racism,its economic bullying and its war machine to poorer countries?

1.Martin Luther King,jr A Testament of Hope:THe essential Writings and speeches of MLK,Harper collins New York,p233

2.King,A Testament of Hope p233

3.King A Testament of Hope p250

Athena,

So you grew up in Pittsburgh. Any mixed race "burbs" there? Chicago? Philly? LA? Outside of DC?

Bottom line- The "burbs" are still mostly white and Asian with the real estate agents still sinning and breaking the law 40 years after MLK's great sacrifice!!!

>After 40 years, the following still holds true with respect to Catholic and other Christian Churches-
>a) parishes especially in the US need to integrate.

You obviously don't live in the DC area. The Catholic Church that my husband attends has people from all races in the pews.

>b) real estate agents should be reminded that denying minorities access to white neighborhoods is a serious sin.

I don't know about a sin, but it's against the law.

>c) interracial marriage should not be frowned upon.

Again, you obviously don't live in the DC area. Heck, my neighbors across the street are interracial.

Victoria - you're from the 'Burgh? So am I! I was only three when MLK was killed, so I don't remember anything. I did hear about the riots in the Hill District and North Side from my parents and grandparents. My Dad was a teacher at Fifth Avenue HS at the time, so he dealt with a lot of it.

I'd offer you an Iron City and some chipped ham, but I know that you're a Moslem. So, how about some city chicken and some Daily's in one of those plastic barrels? Go Stillers!

Ooops a few typos:

The approved message,

With the assassination of MLK, we will never know if he would have come to grips with the flaws and errors of Christianity. Considering his intelligence, one would assume he would.

I can almost hear that speech now.

"After careful review my fellow Christians, it is apparent to my mind and soul that we have been fed significant mumbo-jumbo with respect to the life of Jesus.

Brothers and Sisters stop and read about the real Jesus. Develop a new view!!! Jesus was a simple, illiterate preacher man. The Beatitudes are pure Jesus. His giving to Caesar what was Caesar's is pure Jesus. The rest was embellishment upon embellishment of the life of said simple preacher man!!! The "miracles" were added to compete with the local "voodooers of the hoodoo", the resurrection was added to compete with Roman and Greek gods and the "pretty wingie thingies" and "demons of the demented added to continue the fear and superstitions of the ancients!!!!!"

With the assassination of MLK, we will never know if he would have come to grips with the flaws and errors of Christianity. Considering his intelligence, one would assume he would.

I can almost hear that speech now.

"After careful reveiw my fellow Christians, it is apparent to my mind and soul that we have been fed signficant mumbo-jumbo with respect to the life of Jesus.

Brothers and Sisters stop and read about the real Jesus. Develop a new view!!! Jesus was a simple, illiterate preacher man. The Beatitudes are pure Jesus. His giving to Caesar what was Caesars is pure Jesus. The rest was embellishment upon embellishment of the life of said simple preacher man!!! The "miracles" were added to compete with the local "voodooers of the hoodoo", the resurrection was added to compete with Roman and Greek gods and the "pretty wingie thingies" and "demons of the demented added to continue the fear and superstitions of the ancients!!!!!"

I was living outside the country during the years between 1956 and 1968.This was the time when the Reverend Martin Luther King Jr. was most involved with the Civil Rights movement. He came to my attention for the first time from a news article in the Times or the Newsweek magazine . A strange affinity pulled me toward him. He appeared to me to be the Moses of his people. The more I learned about him the more I believed in his greatness. His speeches and sermons seemed inspired and were inspiring. He, not unlike his master, was cut down for what he believed. Yet what he believed and preached shall stay with us as long as people value justice, liberty and truth.

To clarify:

Norman Ravitch's posted comment (below) is not too nice, and he had also posted something under a similar name that was even worse, which has apparently been deleted by the WaPo monitor. I was referring to those two comments. Victoria must have posted hers, while I was writing mine, so I was not referring to her at all.

Once again, I think the question is a little challenging, since it is a little hard to remember exact moments in history so long ago, and of course, people not even born then are excluded, completely.

Victoria,

What Islam needs is a Martin Luther King to start the process of ending the 800 year blood feud between Sunnis and Shiites!!!!! With the current state of Islamic violence, unfortunately the Islamic Martin Luther King's assassination is guaranteed.

After 40 years, the following still holds true with respect to Catholic and other Christian Churches-

a) parishes especially in the US need to integrate.

b) real estate agents should be reminded that denying minorities access to white neighborhoods is a serious sin.

c) interracial marriage should not be frowned upon.

I hope we can ignore these first few posts, and regard them for what they are, silly babbling, and stay on the subject of the question, at least to start.

i was 7 when the hill district (in pittsburgh pa)was burned down- we were at my grandmother's- 2 blocks away, amd my mother panicked and took my 6 year old brother and i by the hand and we walked the mile into town- the fire hydrants were all opened and we waded through maybe 1 or 2 feet of water (pretty high for a kid)-
amazingly, we were untouched even though we are white- it was surreal, and i as a child, i assumed it was a normal reaction for people when confronted with gross injustice.
later, my brother and i went to school in the hill- we had black studies and black history- we were greeted by a big portrait of the reverend Martin Luther King,Jr. every day-
i cannot even begin to count how major an impact the good reverend had on myself, or that community,

After 40 of the civil rights revolution most blacks are still mired in poverty, crime, immorality and hopelessness. Only a few have benefited, the rest would be better off on a southern plantation before the Civil War. MLK made a big mistake; fighting for the poor would have helped all the poor, white and black. It would not have raised racist opposition. Fighting only for black civil rights has failed, whites have resented it and blacks have not risen to the challenge. FDR never mentioned race or blacks and did more for them than the civil rights movement.

The question is similar to "who's 60 years old and above here? "