Readers’ Responses to Our Question (154)

As a Christian pastor who is expected to look to Jesus as the role model Rev Wright should have prayed:

God have mercy on America and forgive her for she sometimes does not know what she does!

If it is the unique style of worship, the mode of delivery of the sermons, the focus of the sermons on the suffering of the black people, the need to feel a sense of ethnic belonging and keeping alive the history of the black people even in a positive way to thank God for how far they have come from the days of slavery, lest they forget, the real reason for wanting to worship in a separate church, the whites cannot be blamed for the segregation nor can it be called segregation. It is merely a choice and a means to keep their history and traditions alive, no different from many immigrant communities even with no tragic history tend to do.

Did Rev Wright willfully betray Senator Obama or did he just stick to his own views

Rev Wright made it clear that he considered it his duty to speak like a pastor without fear about political consequences to a member of his church and Senator Obama was free to have his own views and act like a politician.

At no time did Rev Wright claim to be speaking for Senator Obama's views nor did he claim that Senator Obama shared all his views.

Rev Wright supported Senator Obama as a person all
along while keeping his own views as a pastor. Senator Obama lived according to his convictions and Rev Wright according to his.

That a pastor has some views that everybody did not share including a politician, does not make the politician responsible for the pastor's views.

That a Harvard educated intellectual running for the most powerful political office in the world had a mind of his own all along and formed his own opinion about right and wrong without feeling the need to condemn a pastor for his views, a pastor who had brought him to the Christian faith and had given him a sense of belonging in a church community and helped him in many ways....is not impossible.

IMHO the victimhood experienced and expressed by blacks is based on a combination of factors: unresolved sense of inferiority directly traceable to their tragic history, prevailing attitudes towards them - overt and covert, their own passive attitude towards changing what is in their power to change and sinking into a feeling of helpless victimhood.

Muslims on the other hand suffer from no inferiority complex. They are taught to feel a sense of entitlement and superiority over believers of other faiths. Their anger springs from perceived insults to that sense of superiority about their religion. Living in a Western country post 9/11 and other violence in the name of Islam has put peace loving Muslims in a quandry and hatred directed at those who genuinely seek peace is rightly perceived as unfair.

It is a good thing that no Muslim is running for President of the US and the media isn't checking on all the sermons preached by Muslim clerics and imams in the US. Their take on politics especially US foreign policy and the way the Muslims view themselves and non-Muslims in American society could keep the media busy for years.

The Saudi ruler was so impressed with the version of Islam being preached in his own country the birthplace of Islam by many that he got no less than a thousand clerics fired and is actively involved in promoting a moderate view of Islam that tolerates other religious views.

A powerful Islamic reform movement is underway in Europe including Turkey which seeks to create Euro-Islam that can integrate without conflict into the European culture. American Muslims take note!

Jeremiah Wright's sermons continue to be an issue in the presidential campaign. Why? What do you think of his preaching style? What do you wish you understood better about it?

The reason Rev. Wright's sermons continue to be an issue is because:

1. the "powers that be" could not find any dirt on Obama and had to find something to stop his momentum, and

2. The media continued to talk about it because they are paid by the "powers that be."

As someone who now lives in MD, but grew up on the south side of Chicago, I know Rev. Wright, went to his church and LOVE his style. After attending another methodist church during my childhood, I found his preaching to be refreshing and it made me want to go to church.

What I really wish is that the entire story had been told of how Rev. Wright has reached across the aisle to embrace all races, classes and cultures to allow non-Blacks to feel comfortable in our church. His attention to those in need has not been told. How he has empowered the hopeless has not been told. I honestly believe the media went out of their way to demonize Rev. Wright in an effort to destroy Barack's campaign and if it works, how sad that will be.

I am so tired of how our Black men have been portrayed in the media whether TV, newspapers or movies. The fear that permeates White America is perpetuated by the media because they know that anything mixed with Black becomes Black by their definition. And what's that saying, once you go black, you never go back. Fear is used to control! Don't fall for it!

victoria,

No one who owes allegiance to the United States of America should "cut any slack" for either Wright or Obama after that rant has been made public, whether or not Obama was in the audience that day. That's just the way it is. The do gooders and the Democratic Party/a la Dean will just have to find it out by watching McCain become President. It could easily even spill over into the congressional elections.

thanks holimosses- not that speech- the one at the press club-

Finally, Rev Wright has retired. It is right to give him credit where credit is due without throwing out everything because he was not perfect and made some gross blunders.

It is up to the current pastor of his church to lead the members of his church in a new way that fosters forgiveness and love and unity among blacks and whites; to empower blacks without pitting them against their white brothers and sisters; to help them deal with problems pro-actively, without retreating into a passive victim mode focusing all their energy on what is wrong with the others.

Blacks have many positive role models starting with Senator Obama. Oprah, Woods etc are others.

Syphilis and AIDS are both diseases transmitted by blood and sexual contact. Rev Wright should have done his homework about the syphilis study and about the risk factors of both diseases before making his public comments even if it was to his church members . While AIDS continues to occur among homosexual males of all races its incidence has decreased dramatically due to the the practice of safe sex, not necessarily different sexual morality. AIDS among heterosexuals continues to be a problem and unsafe sex is one factor. The incidence HIV infection among black Americans is nine times higher than white Americans. It is atrocious for a Christian pastor to blame the US government for a disease that is spread by scientifically proven risk factors, and the US government is not one of them. It is irresponsible on the part of a pastor to carry his love for his people to the extent that he blames innocent parties for a disease that is spread with the involvement of the person who contracts the disease. The Christian pastor should have organized sex education instead, with instruction on safe sex. As a pastor he could have pleaded for the Christian sex moral of one partnetion r for life insteadr

HOLIMOSSES, Since Rev Wright is an American when he says "God damn America" he was including himself and the black Americans to whom he addressed his sermons in the privacy of his segregrated black church at segregrated eleven O'clock on a Sunday morning. It was not a speech at a political rally to pep up an armed black crowd which was setting off to lynch white Americans. That a Christian pastor who should be working towards peace and reconciliation of the races said it at a Sunday service is inappropriate but not un-patriotic when the meaning is understood in the context of the whole sermon.

When white politicians who worked hard to abolish slavery expressed their fear for the wrath of God for the crimes of white slave-owners they included themselves in the punishment that they feared God would inflict on their nation just as all Egyptians had to suffer for the wrongdoing of the few who misused their power against the Jews.

It is an emotional analogy meant to reflect however erraneously the OT prophets, but it is not un-patriotism. Blacks serve in the American army and die for the wars America fights. Rev Wright proved his patriotism by serving his nation in the army. Many blacks go off to die for the American cause as proud Americans serving their country. Maybe that is why as a black pastor Rev Wright would like black Americans to fight in wars that he believes are worth fighting for. Rev Wright is not the only one who objected to the invasion of Iraq. His cursing and rant and emphasis on and fanning of black vs white victim-hood is somewhat out of place in a Christian church but his love for his coun.try America should not be questioned. American blacks have no other country

Segregrated churches is a Christian issue white Christians need to pray about and act on. The deeply ingrained attitudes that make such a segregation necessary is a Christian issue. If blacks choose to worship separately because they are forced to or they are made to feel second class in a white church it requires white Christians to work on their Christianity.

For Victoria,

The statement by Wright was "...God damn America...". How many data points does it take?
A lot of us do not need but one of such significance. The Democratic Party "should hang its head in shame".

Satan misleads people through extreme pride of race and the worship of political organizations and he has influenced some to feel that their nation or race is better than others.
● "Man has dominated man to his injury." (Ecclesiastes 8:9) Whether those dominating are individuals or classes, when one group of people elevates itself over another, misery and suffering are the result.

God did not create man to rule over man. He created man to live in harmony with His standards.

● God is not partial. (Acts 10:34, 35)
● In God's eyes, one group of humans is not inherently superior to another group. (Acts 17:26)
● All humans are related, and before God all are born equal. (Job 34:19)

People look to political organizations and human governments to solve man's problems. By doing this, they are rejecting God's Kingdom. God’s Kingdom is the only solution for our problems. (Daniel 2:44)
● Jesus was not interested in or part of any political movement. When he was offered political power he refused it. (John 6:14&15)
● Jesus knows Jehovah God’s purpose for the earth will not be realized through human governments but through God’s heavenly government. (Matthew 6:10)
● Left on their own, imperfect humans simply cannot find the road to true peace and happiness. (Jeremiah 10:23)
So far, history has shown that humans are far from equal, and class distinctions are still a predominant feature of society. Such classes have not brought any benefits to society as a whole. Social class systems divide people, resulting in envy, hatred, heartache, and much bloodshed. The white-supremacy mentality in Africa, Australia, and North America brought misery to nonwhites—including the total genocide of the Aborigines in Tasmania. In Europe, classifying the Jews as inferior was a prelude to the Holocaust. The great wealth of the aristocracy and the dissatisfaction among the lower and middle classes were factors that led to the French Revolution of the 18th century and to the Bolshevik Revolution in 20th-century Russia.
Some day there will be a society among the living where social class will not be important. When Jesus was on the earth, he laid the groundwork for such a society.
● Jesus gave his life as a ransom sacrifice for all believing mankind so that "everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life." (John 3:16).
In God's eyes, all of Jesus' true disciples are equal in the faith.
● To show that none of his followers should elevate themselves above fellow believers, Jesus said: "You, do not you be called Rabbi, for one is your teacher, whereas all you are brothers. Moreover, do not call anyone your father on earth, for one is your Father, the heavenly One. Neither be called 'leaders,' for your Leader is one, the Christ. But the greatest one among you must be your minister. Whoever exalts himself will be humbled." (Matthew 23:8-12)
● The early Christians, who got the sense of Jesus' teaching, viewed themselves as equal. They viewed one another as equal in the faith and showed this by addressing one another as "brother." (Philemon 1, 7, 20)
● Nobody was encouraged to view himself as being better than others. (2 Peter 1:1) Peter had personally been instructed by Jesus, and as an apostle, he held an important position of responsibility. Yet, he considered himself to be a slave and recognized that other Christians held the faith in equal privilege with him.
Some may say that the fact that in pre-Christian times God made Israel his special nation is an example of racial superiority. (Exodus 19:5, 6) It is true that the Israelites, as descendants of Abraham, enjoyed a special relationship with God and were used as the channel for divine revelations. But the purpose of this was not to put them on a pedestal. (Romans 3:1) Rather, it was in order that 'all nations would be blessed.' (Genesis 22:18; Galatians 3:8).
● Most Israelites did not imitate the faith of Abraham, were unfaithful and rejected Jesus as the Messiah. Because of that, God rejected them. (Matthew 21:43)
● The meek among mankind did not lose out on the promised blessings. At Pentecost 33 C.E., the Christian congregation was born. This organization of Christians who were anointed by holy spirit was called "the Israel of God," and it proved to be the channel through which those blessings would come. (Galatians 6:16).
Some members of that congregation needed educating in the matter of equality. For example, the disciple James counseled those who were treating wealthy Christians with more honor than poorer ones. (James 2:1-4) The apostle Paul showed that Gentile Christians were in no way inferior to Jewish Christians, and female Christians were in no way inferior to males. He wrote: "You are all, in fact, sons of God through your faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one person in union with Christ Jesus."(Galatians 3:26-28).
True Christians today try to live according to Scriptural principles. They recognize that social classes have no meaning in the eyes of God. They have no clergy/laity division, and they are not segregated according to skin color or wealth. Although some of them may be wealthy, they do not focus on "the showy display of one's means of life," for they realize that such things are only transitory. (1 John 2:15-17) They all are united by their worship of the Universal Sovereign, Jehovah God.
Every true Christian accepts the responsibility to share in the work of preaching the good news of the Kingdom to his or her fellowman. Like Jesus, they honor the downtrodden and neglected by visiting them in their homes, offering to teach them God's Word. Those with a humble status in life work side by side with those who may be viewed by some as upper class. It is spiritual qualities that count, not social class. As in the first century, all are brothers and sisters in the faith.
Equality does not mean total uniformity. Men and women, old and young, are all represented in the Christian organization that includes people from many racial, linguistic, national, and economic backgrounds. As individuals, they have different mental and physical abilities. But those differences do not make some superior or others inferior. Rather, such differences result in a delightful variety. Those Christians recognize that any talents they have are gifts from God and are no reason for feelings of superiority.
Class divisions are a result of man's trying to govern himself instead of following God's guidance. Soon, God's Kingdom will take over the day-to-day rulership of this earth, and the result will be an end to man-made class distinctions, along with all other things that have caused suffering through the ages. Then, in a real sense, 'the meek will inherit the earth.' (Psalm 37:11) All reasons for boasting about one's supposed superiority will be gone. Never again will social classes be allowed to divide the worldwide brotherhood of man.

What I want to know, is why the why white community doesn’t understand that the church meets the needs of the people it serves? Obama was entirely right in that Wright, and a large majority of the Black clergy and people, haven’t forgotten slavery, or post civil war terrorism by groups like the KKK, and Jim Crow America. It’s not easy for people who have been fighting the good fight for nearly all their lives, to accept a proclaimed truce as iterated by Senator Obama, just ask Chelsea Clinton. Where we haven’t had a place on school boards or seats of government, the church served as the sounding boards for politics and civil matters, not just spiritual matters. Therefore, black ministers have always been both a community leader and minister.

The Rev. Wright has more than enough documented injustice to base any argument on, without throwing in the kitchen sink theories, and inflammatory rhetoric. He is a Christian minister of the gospel, and that means bringing healing, insight, reconciliation, and resolution. That's where he went off the tracks. Obama has no choice but to reject divisive assertions like the AIDS comments, etc. There is ample proof that our government accepts and in no small way, allows tragedy to flourish in the Black community. But started the AIDS epidemic? There are ways in which he could have said what he believed, given it context and meaning, and started discussion, understanding.

"What I abhor is government growth. Obama and Hillary are going to increase government at a faster pace than will McCain."

How do you know this? Because Rush Limbaugh told you so? How about the fact that Reagan expanded the Federal Government by as much as 90% - mostly for Defense? And Bush increased government spending by 80%, not counting the costs of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars?

From the Libertarian site http://
www.independent.org/newsroom/news_detail.asp?newsID=31

can anyone tell me what exactly it was reverend wright said that started this firestorm?

i cannot accept as a given that what he said was racist because fox news and alot of bloggers say it is so-

what were the words that have people so up in arms?

no one here seems to have elaborated on the content- yet many seem to have some strong negative opinions about the man himself-

why?

Info relating to HIV/AIDS

View with h t t p and w w w

kff.org/hivaids/upload/3029-08.pdf

Sally; it is presuming - the sin of pride - for you to suggest the readers don't know what the so calledd "reverend" is saying and not saying. There are many reasons for the graduates of the Harvard Divinity School to be failures. Wright is only one of them.

HIV/AIDS

View link with h t t p and w w w

aegis.com/topics/timeline/

1981

On June 5th, the CDC reports that in the period October 1980-May 1981, 5 young men, all active homosexuals, were treated for biopsy-confirmed Pneumocystis carinii pneumonia at 3 different hospitals in Los Angeles, California. Two of the patients died. All 5 patients had laboratory-confirmed previous or current cytomegalovirus (CMV) infection and candidal mucosal infection.

On July 4th, the CDC reports that during the past 30 months, 26 cases of Kaposi Sarcoma have been reported among Gay males, and that eight have died, all within 24-months of diagnosis.

1982

CDC (USA) links the new disease to blood.

The term AIDS ("acquired immune dificiency syndrome") is used for the first time on July 27th.

The Gay Mens Health Crisis is founded in New York City.

1983

CDC (USA) warns blood banks of a possible problem with the blood supply.

Institut Pasteur (France) finds the virus (HIV).

1984

Dr. Robert Gallo (US) claims he discovered the virus that causes AIDS; however, this is about a year after the French discovery.

---------

Summary:

1981 The disease first diagnosed in white male homosexual men.

1983 The virus first found by the French.

1984 The virus confirmed by an American as cause of HIV.

The isolation of a virus in 1959 and symptoms of AIDS found in men in 1978 were only later to be considered relating to the same disease first described in 1981.

----------------
U.S. Public Health Service Syphilis Study at Tuskegee (Timeline)

View with h t t p and w w w

cdc.gov/tuskegee/timeline.htm

Ever wonder why Black people see this issue so differant than white people....Our struggles define the need to look for support in any man who takes the courage to bring our issues to the table...we not agree 100% with what is being said but under all that speaking what we do see is the desire for anyone to request a must needed change...white america and black america has deep insecure issues while just being played out in opposite ways.....Black people don't feel the security to get up and create change in their communities while white america don't feel the security to see us do it....

This deep rooted insecurity needs to be brought to the surface so we can effectivity deal with them.....

Peace

A republican thoroughbred will not be affected by facts when it comes to fiscal matters. I knew a fellow back when Nixon started his deficit spending for food stamps that would literally get exceedingly angry when it would be pointed out what the republicans and Nixon were doing. It was about the same with Reagan - nothing you can say or do will effect anything other than their emotional involvement and what comes back at ya. Human intelligence is apparently grossly over estimated.

It is right for Rev Wright to empower the blacks and seek to better their condition in every way. It should be done in a Christian spirit of forgiveness and love for enemies, without inculcating hatred in the blacks for the whites and without perpetuating a mentality of remaining stuck in the past of slavery and a feeling of victim-hood about the subtle and not so subtle discrimination today. Teaching the blacks to take responsibility for what they can change in themselves and their communities should be a part of the empowering process.

Rev Wright who lives a life of luxury is no Old Testament prophet. Even well established academics do not have access to such wealth. The blacks in the US do not live in slavery, so the symbolism of liberation is not so readily applicable. The blacks in the US do not suffer from the kind of government corruption and resulting poverty and oppression as people in Latin American countries where liberation theology was first formulated as answer to the political situation there.

Reading Noam Chomsky and others like him might be a good idea to understand Rev Wright better. Rev Wright's ideas seem to be a religious version of those thoughts, fashioned with Old Testament prophet symbolism, cut out for blacks in the US as answer to their experience of discrimination.

Rev Wright was careless about portraying some far fetched thoughts as facts which could be proved wrong. He was foolish to defend those errors so self-righteously. But as an intellectual he is no wacko. He is right there in the same league as Noam Chomsky and probably draws his political inspiration from such writing. He seems wacko only when he attributes that political style and content to the Old Testament prophets.

Rev Wright's social service conviction and work for the poor and marginalized in his community is Biblically based. Helping the poor with material goods was always a very important part of Christian ministry from its earliest days. It is ironic that something so fundamental to Christianity seems so communist in a capitalist democracy. Christianity is communist in that positive sense.

And being intimately connected with the government, I can tell you that the fiscal year begins on October 1.........

GARYD - no one expected you to change your mind.
There are plenty more where you came from.

Freeman sir is grossly out of touch with reality. Not uncommon for leftist economists assuming he is of course an economist and not just your usual leftist talking through hs hat Paul Krugman is an even a worse source for economic verite.

Freeman neglects to inform the reader that the Federal fiscal year doesn't begin until September which meant that the Reagan tax cuts did not even come into play until the year was mostly done. The full impact of the Tax cuts would not even be felt until '83.

The rest of the piece is not much more factual and scarcely deserving of the time to read it.

The article below is a reality check for GARYD - who seems to be devoted to GOP fiscal policy for some peculiar reason....read it and weep.

Don't blame it on the democrats. Presidents get the credit and the blame for everything that happens on their watch, and rightly so.

Bush's Tax Cuts
A Form of National Insanity
By ROBERT FREEMAN

Insanity, said Albert Einstein, is doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results. By this measure, the latest Bush tax cuts qualify as certifiably insane.

Where have we seen this deranged fiscal strategy before? Remember Ronald Reagan and Supply Side Economics? In the early 1980s, Reagan promised the nation that if we lowered tax rates on the wealthy, the economy would grow so much the federal budget would be balanced "within three years, maybe even two."

Sober people were skeptical-and rightly so. Reagan's Republican opponent for the 1980 presidential election, George H.W. Bush called it "voodoo economics." His own Budget Director, David Stockman, called it a "Trojan horse," a scam intended really to funnel more money to the already rich. Stockman was quickly dismissed.

The results, we now know, were a disaster. In 1982, the first full year after the tax cuts were enacted, the economy actually shrank 2.2%, the worst performance since the Great Depression. And the effect on the federal budget was catastrophic.

Jimmy Carter's last budget deficit was $77 billion. Reagan's first deficit was $128 billion. His second deficit exploded to $208 billion. By the time the "Reagan Revolution" was over, George H.W. Bush was running an annual deficit of $290 billion per year.

Yearly deficits, of course, add up to national debt. When Reagan took office, the national debt stood at $994 billion. When Bush left office, it had reached $4.3 trillion. In other words, the national debt had taken 200 years to reach $1 trillion. Reagan's Supply Side experiment quadrupled it in the next 12 years.

Is there anything to compare this to? When Bill Clinton took office he intentionally reversed the Supply Side formula, raising taxes on the wealthy and reducing them on the lowest wage earners. Supply Side true believers predicted the arrival of the Apocalypse. Bob Dole said the stock market would collapse. Newt Gingrich said the world would fall into another Great Depression.

What actually happened?

Between 1992 and 2000, the U.S. economy produced the longest sustained economic expansion in U.S. history. It created more than 18 million new jobs, the highest level of job creation ever recorded. Inflation fell to 2.5% per year compared to the 4.7% average over the prior 12 years.

Real interest rates fell by over 40% producing the greatest housing boom ever. Overall economic growth averaged 4.0% per year compared to 2.8% average growth over the 12 years of the Reagan/Bush administrations. Most impressively, Clinton reversed the mammoth deficits of the Supply Side years, turning them into surpluses. He used these surpluses to begin paying down the national debt.

By virtually every meaningful measure-employment, growth, inflation, interest rates, investment, deficits and debt-the economy performed better once the Supply Side experiment was terminated and replaced with a more honest economic policy where we actually pay our bills as we go.

This might all be ancient history if the spectre of Supply Side economics had not reared its ugly head again once Bush II took office. In selling his $1.6 trillion tax cut-half of which went to the wealthiest 1% of Americans-Bush promised in 2001 that it would produce 800,000 new jobs. In fact, the economy has lost 2.7 million jobs since Bush took office, again, the worst economic performance since the Great Depression.

The effects of Bush's tax cut on the deficit and debt are exactly what we would expect having seen Reagan's results-only worse. Bush inherited from Clinton a fiscal surplus of $127 billion. In his first year he turned that into a deficit of $158 billion. In this, his second year, he will run a deficit of over $400 billion-a swing to the worse of over $600 billion in only two years.

Now Bush has sold us on still another megadose of this same Supply Side voodoo. Two thirds of his new $350 billion tax cut will go to the top 10% of income earners. Bush's Congressional ally, Tom DeLay, promises more such cuts for every year Bush is in office.

The long term effects of these policies are profoundly damaging. When Bush took office, the government's ten year surplus was forecast to total $5.6 trillion. This was critical to building fiscal soundness as the Baby Boomers begin to retire.

Now, the ten year forecast projects a cumulative deficit of $1.1 trillion, a net loss of $6.7 trillion in only two years. With the exception of World Wars, this is the greatest, most rapid destruction of public wealth in the history of the world.

This is $6.7 trillion that is not available to pay for an entire generation's retirement as we promised. It cannot rebuild the nation's schools or retrain the technologically unemployed. It cannot shore up a foundering Medicare system or provide insurance to the more than 40 million Americans without it. The interest costs of funding this debt will soon approach half a trillion dollars a year and will retard investment and, therefore, economic growth for decades to come.

All this torrent of debt does-and we shouldn't underestimate the prodigious potency of this feat-is line the pockets of Bush's already gorged campaign contributors.

Rarely in public affairs do we have the luxury of such starkly clear, empirically proven, historically sound contrasts. If Bush's tax cuts do not represent a fiscal process wildly out of control it is hard to imagine what does. And sadly, per Einstein's insanity dictum, we've seen it all before.

Bush wants people to believe these losses are due to a recession he inherited from Bill Clinton. But the economy has grown for seven of the last eight quarters Bush has been in office, hardly a recessionary environment. In truth, the losses owe to a reckless economic philosophy, the failings of which have been conclusively, and now repeatedly, demonstrated.

We need to wake up from our patriotism-besotted, war-induced stupor. Losses and debts of this magnitude threaten our nation's well being far more than do fictive weapons of mass destruction in the hands of a two bit, third world thug. Destroying our fiscal patrimony at the very moment we need it most-when history shows we should know better-is nothing short of national insanity.

MO - you want deluded?? Look in the mirror pal...

The national deficit grew by over 2 trillion under GWB all by his own self - with a majority republican congress aiding and abetting all the way.

There is nothing redeeming whatsoever about the present Bush administration - if you're an ordinary person, that is. Republicans always bow and scrape and pander to ordinary voters until they get elected. Then their true agenda comes to the forefront - Corporate America...how many ways can it be said?? McCain is a corporate suck-up....heart and soul, and now happily married to it.

And the fact is, democrats aren't much better .... however they're just liberal enough to occasionally pay attention to their real constituency - 'WE THE PEOPLE' ....and the recent restriction of and encroachment on personal and individual freedoms through overt and covert governmental means is generally far down the list on the democratic agenda - something that certainly can't be said about this administration, their congressional lackeys, and their deeply invasive policies - including warrantless wiretapping, the Patriot Act , and constitutional violations without number - and yes, many spineless democrats went right along with all of it.

Oh, and did I forget to mention our present devastating & budget busting war in Iraq? Not that we hear much about it lately unless a few of the enemy get blown away - then it's big news!

Lobbyists should be barred from Washington permanently - now there's a damn good start to real reform. Next, let's get rid of farm subsidies, and start de-constructing special interest legistation - including the dreaded pork barrel crap that costs taxpayers countless millions.

My problem recently with democrats is their aforementioned spineless, wishy washy ways - just too damn many rich folks crafting legislation in Washington if you ask me. Why would they vote against their own best interests, regardless of party??

We should think about that as we continue putting rich representatives back in both Houses time after time after time......

And to imagine that some folks want more of the same with McCain -

If there were a continuing organization somewhere that had/has no conscience, created the concept of one "God" which the organazation invented, and that intended to ultimately rule the world in perpetutity how would they continue their progress if they had created a nation such as the United States of America where the people believe they are in charge???????

Elimination of viable subsidiary governments (states) and bankruptcy of the consolidated government/organization would seem to be some of the "must do" actions. Creation of 'funny money' that can be created at will would also seem to be a major part of the process.

If government doesn't grow you don't have deficits.
The Democrats controlled the house of representatives for all of Reagan's 8 years and the Senate for all but 2 of Reagan's Terms as president.

The House of Representatives is where all spending bills must originate and since Gerald Ford the presidential Veto has been hamstrung by simply sending the president one big omnibus spending bill every year rather than several smaller ones. Giving the president the choice of closing down the government or holding hid nose and signing off on a Bill he really doesn't care for over all but which does contain a few of the things he wants.

Bush one cave to The democrats in all regards and the result was a flat economy and the Bill Clinton presidency whose first two years were as easily lackluster as Bush 1's last tow and GWB's 1st two.

In '95 the Republicans took over and Clinton vetoed their omnibus Bill relying on his media allies (the alphabet soup gang) to blame congress rather than him for the impasse, a hope no Republican president could ever depend on.

The ultimate result was that the wrong lesson was shown to the country which again the alphabet soup gang has been at great links to cover up. That lesson was that when the dead hand of government is remove from the economy's neck it promptly takes off. This however is the last thing the Dems and there alphabet soup gang want anyone to consider. They like government largely because they consider themselves to be the rightful and righteous wielders of such power. That they are neither of the two seems to never dawn on them.

The last time we tried Pay as you go socialism was the seventies and it all but ruined the country.

between the church of christ and the shrine of democracey.

for so god love the world,he gave up his only begotten son (it happen to be white skin ????????????).and the rest of mankind have to pay for it!

democracey died for the sin ,perfectness and safety of mankind????????????????????.

1-delusionism is the twin sister of colorism,if god would chose a son he could v chose adam the first son !

2-the creator god of this universe is the truth,the way and life.

3-the truth is one and the delusions are many.

GARYD - rather than growth of government I'd be worrying about a continued growth of the national deficit. Did you know that over 70% of our current debt was incurred during the administration of two Bushes and a Reagan??

What with McCain's proclivity for following in the footsteps of Bush, including America's current potential for starting wars at the drop of a hat, I'd be very concerned about McCain's negative effect on our already fragile economy.

You're suffering from the republican libertarian myth/delusion of runaway government growth under democrats - when in fact under Bush you've had simultaneous government growth and reduced government funding by virtue of the Bush tax breaks for the rich - which would continue under McCain in perpetuity. A complete lack of governmental oversight in the banking industry has helped put us where we are today with the mortgage and foreclosure crisis, etc. - with a wink and a nod from Bush/Cheney and company.

On the other hand, never has an administration implemented such control and micro-managerial manipulation over a host of governmental agencies whose findings and rulings portend a potential negative impact over corporate interests. Long story short, Corporate American has never been so protected or benefitted so richly as under our current White House administration. More of the same to be expected from McCain, to be sure - McCain is Corporate America's knight in shining armor. The utter lack of ethical behavior by Bushco is beyond appalling and is the stuff of future prosecutorial action, if there's any justice.......but we shouldn't hold our collective breath.

Going to war was bad enough, but the First Rule of war should always be ... never go to war and give tax breaks at the same time - don't you agree??

The Bush administration has fostered the worst and most destructive domestic and international policies in modern history - and there's every reason to believe that McCain and his GOP cronies (if there are any left after November) will continue those policies unabated.

And you're worried about Obama and Clinton???

Get real.........

My bad the last Anonymous post is mine it was supposed to be addressed to anonymous and i go in too much of a hurry.

Wright's comments don't mean much unless he knows something the rest of us don't know about Obama.

The fact that millions would put Obama in charge of the United States of America is certainly testimony to the malability of the human mind and makes the question of whether or not humans, or elements of humanity, are capable of self government a debatable issue. Those that would turn the Untied States over to Obama and his entourage should be considered highly suspect for self governement.

Sorry I'm not a big fan of McCain either I just see him as the least dangerous of the available alternatives.

What I abhor is government growth. Obama and Hillary are going to increase government at a faster pace than will McCain.

In Defence of Obama, previously posted on another thread:

There once was a preacher named Wright
Who was preaching with all of his might
So he lied with great glee
To stop Obama's candidacy
Let's all toss Wright out in the night

- Arminius

You can smear Obama all the live long day - but McCain remains our worst nightmare. He and his cronies are hiding out until the dust blows over.
At that point, McCain and his zombie controllers will rise from the dead and lead us into a hell on earth. If you thought Bush was the worst you ain't seen nothin' yet.......

Omaha how do you see with all that sand in your eyes? If Wright was the only glitch you might have a point. But with Obama you not only get the wright diatribes, But William Ayres the unrepentant weatherman terroist on the record as saying they didn't blow up enough stuff, Resco, and who knows what next week.

For a man with so little time in politics Obama has certainly managed to collect some interesting baggage.

All of this stuff sticks almost entirely because Obama has no track record to speak of outside of Chicago and the Illinois Assembly.

No comment. Question. Which member of any media outlet paper, network or cable t.v. acted like a Christian skewering Obama. Apparently he has shown more dignity and sanity than anyone who has lambasted him. As you listen to the maniacal ravings of Limbaugh, Hannity, Coulter, Ingram and yes Hillary's camp you can tell that they sit on their religion. God bless and Save America.

Patrick D. Shannon :
Sally Quinn said on the Charley Rose Show that in the Tuskegee Experiment, the US government infected African-American men with syphilis. The researchers watched the development of infections that they did not cause. And the researchers lied by telling the men they were being treated for that disease.

______
I will add to this. There were 5 clinicians involved in the Tuskegee experiments. 2 were black! In fact, the head of the hospital that ran the program was black!

Forget not the good done by Rev Wright
One wrong does not cancel a right
Throw not the baby with the bathwater
Discard not the wheat with the chaff.

Turn not a deaf ear to the cries of the black
Who live in the richest country in the world
Many of whom are yet miserably poor
Trapped many a time for no fault of their own
Unable to pull themselves out
With the strap of their own boots.

Hidden beneath the wrong word of Wright
Are pearls of wisdom
The muted cry of a people in pain
Turn not away from your brothersB and sisters
Listen to their heart filled with dreams
Even if badly articulated wrongly by Wright.

But excuse me, is Rev Jeremiah Wright running for the President of the United States?

Does the pastor of every presidential candidate have to qualify for the candidacy as well?

If yes, what about Senator Obama's neighbor's dog? If the dog has a history of having bitten the postman at one time, surely that disqualifies Senator Obama. After all, Senator Obama should have reported the matter to the police instead of continuing to live as a neighbor to the owner of such a terribly spoiled and monstrous pet for twenty years.

A foreigner am I
The business with Rev Wright
Is political dynamite
This devil's advocate
May be right.

Senator Obama is gonna be damned if he does
And damned if he doesn't
O poor man, his dream turned nightmare
With friends like Rev Wright
Does Senator Obama need an enemy.

Is Rev Wright
Merely a man of his time,
Or is he a man who looked into his reflection
And fell in love with himself
Did power and money corrupt him,
Or is he the prophet
He claims to be.

Rev Wright could best have helped his cause
For liberation of his people
By helping Senator Obama
As best as he could.

But alas the man
His own agenda in mind
Now shoots himself in the leg
His people too.

Does a hero blame a whole people
His own
For his words of indiscretion
Driven by his illusion of prophethood.

Why does he not apologize
For misrepresented facts
AIDS by God was thought at first
To be a curse on white homosexual men
By religious folk.

Studying the natural course of a disease,
Syphilis, was bad science done in ignorance.
Ever since taught as warning against poor science
Long before Rev Wright ever heard of it.

Rev Wright is a Christian
Why does he remain in the Old Testament
Did not Jesus preach
Forgiveness and love for enemies.

Why does Rev Wright
Preach damnation and revenge
Instead of binding the wounds
And seeking reconciliation.

Why not learn from the Jews
Who take revenge by excelling
In everything they do
Too busy to be hating and cursing
Their oppressors of the past and present.

A poem by Kola Boof for the Rev. Wright and the Christian and Muslim readers of this blog to peruse and ponder-

"BINT IL NIL" (poetwomen.50megs.com/)

I want a new religion.
The one our mothers had in the river.

I am tired of Jesus and Mohammed.
I am tired of man's foot.
I am tired of the White man's mother.
I am weary...from doing nothing about it.

I want my own religion.
I want my real mother.

Africa, I want you.

Make me pregnant with God.
Our own perfect babies...Black as perfection.
Tall as the sky. Healthy as light sparkling on
clear water.

I want my own religion.
I want my own voice.
I want my own face.
I want my own hair.
I am Naima/the one who is victorious
the one"

I posted this on Dr. Carruther's blog, but it fits here as well!

You have to be kidding....

"The concept of community within the prophetic black church tradition is rooted in its African DNA and expressed in its African American being. Thousands of years before the Trans Atlantic Slave Trade, African culture and society have been and continues to be largely characterized as communal in nature. This means African societies have as core values the well-being of community interests, even at the subordination of one’s individual interests."

Do you read the same newspapers I do??? Africa is one of the violent continents in the world... What community are you talking about? The one in Zimbabwe, Liberia, Ivory Coast, Nigeria, Sierra Leone, etc, etc....!!! Core value????? Give me a break!

I wish you would look at this link about African slavery history: http://autocww.colorado.edu/~blackmon/E64ContentFiles/AfricanHistory/SlaveryInAfrica.html

I am not a racist, never have been. I take people at their core values, individually. But I would suggest that your "Black Church" preachers should highlight the problems of the African American community and attempt to put a stop to it instead of blaming everything on "Whitey" as you call Caucasians.

I am a European immigrant to this country so I don't carry a lot of the baggage that American's seem to have in regards to race. I don't see what you describe. I have had the opportunity to work in Washington DC for 3 years and here is what I observed. There are a lot of very well educated, nice, hard working African Americans whom I am proud to call a friend and a lot of sleazebags. In the inner city “ghettos“, there are a lot of unsavory characters that include both men and women. They are drug dealers and gang members, calling each other n*gg*rs and their women hos, are fascinated by gansta rap, the women screech at each other in a language that most people can't understand, become pregnant at very young ages and live a miserable live having absolutely no respect for themselves. The first time I heard that "Ebonics "should be taught in school, I thought that this is the most crazy country I have ever lived in. You all grew up with the same language, the same TV, the same schools, yet you insist on not speaking proper English. One does not aks a question, one asks a question. Maybe your black church pastors should address what is wrong within the black community instead of blaming everything on covert racism.

No different than the white community. Whites certainly have the same problems....there are many whom I don't want to meet in daylight, much less at night. We call those people trailer trash.

Both black and whites in this country choose what they want to be. That some Black Church pastors, and you, want to blame all of your ills on white America’s racism is more than unfortunate and, plainly, wrong.

And, yes, if Obama wins the nomination I intend to vote for him even though I have always voted Republican.....the man has class!

Why, Christie? There aren't enough liars firing for effect here already.

Sally,
Invite Jeremiah Wright to join your panel. I would like to hear his thoughts on a host of topics.

Happy May Day Pagans!
Happy Labor Day workers!
Happy whatever-day-you-thieved-from-the-Celts Christians!
Happy Loyalty Day nationalist zombies!

And speaking of a successful surge, the death toll for both Iraqis and Americans was at a 7 month high at the end of April.

I can well imagine some of the older posters here (you know who you are) being either dead themselves or at death's door by the time we exit Iraq if McCain were to get elected.

How could success be any more clear-cut than that?

'Death's Door'

Blood on the wall,
Broken glass scattered
The taste of gun powder
Sounds of sirens
Fighting darkness
Troubles no longer matter
No more pain
Only memories
That start to fade

Last seconds of repent
I quietly whisper
As the blood empties to the floor
A repeated sinner
Day after day
Now I look at my soul
Face to face
On the footsteps of death....

author unknown

The question should be why are so many in the Democratic party pushing someone for President of the United States that we know so little about when the Democratic candidate should have been able to win easily?? There is no reason to believe that Obama has the knowledge and administrative ability to bring about the "change" in Washington that he keeps talking about. Claiming an "outsider" can change Washington is a big joke and that is known to whoever is really behind Obama. The joke is on the good people of the United States of America.

An update on our War on Terror and Aggression:

An update (or how we are or how we have spent USA taxpayers’ money to eliminate global terror and aggression- as per yesterday, Iraq's oil profit windfall, $171 million, will be used for Iraq's reconstruction- we shall see!)

A Partial and Rather Recent Body Count

1) Assassination of Benazir Bhutto.

2) 9/11, 3000 mostly US citizens, 1000’s injured

3) The 24/7 Sunni-Shiite centuries-old blood feud currently being carried out in Iraq, 4056 US troops and 83,221 – 90,782 Iraqi civilians

4) Kenya- In Nairobi, about 212 people were killed and an estimated 4000 injured; in Dar es Salaam, the attack killed at least 11 and wounded 85.

5) Bali-in 2002-killing 202 people, 164 of whom were foreign nationals, and 38 Indonesian citizens. A further 209 people were injured.

6) Bali in 2005- Twenty people were killed, and 129 people were injured by three bombers who killed themselves in the attacks.

7) Spain in 2004- killing 191 people and wounding 2,050.

8) UK in 2005- The bombings killed 52 commuters and the four radical Islamic suicide bombers, injured 700.

Other elements of our War on Terror:

1. Saddam, his sons and major henchmen have been deleted. Saddam's bravado about WMD was one of his major mistakes.

2. Iran is being been contained. (besides containing the Sunni-Shiite civil war in Baghdad, that is the main reason we are in Iraq. And yes, essential oil continues to flow from the region.)

3. Libya has become almost civil. Apparently this new reality from an Islamic country has upset OBL and his “crazies” as they recently threatened Libya. OBL sure is a disgrace to the world especially the Moslem world!!! (Or is he?)

4. North Korea is still uncivil but is contained. With the opening up of rail traffic between North and South Korea after 50 years and with the assistance of the US Navy in retrieving NK ships and personnel, a fresh sense of civility is afoot. One of the most eminent US cultural institutions, the New York Philharmonic Orchestra, has performed a landmark concert in North Korea.

The concert included music by Western composers and a Korean folk song, and was broadcast live on local television.

Unfortunately, North Korea’s apparent move toward peace did not last long as they fired test missiles and threatened South Korea with military action recently.

5. Northern Ireland is finally at peace.

6. The Jews and Palestinians are being separated by walls. Hopefully the walls will follow the 1948 UN accords and the Annapolis Peace Conference is at least somewhat successful.

7. Bin Laden has been cornered under a rock in Western Pakistan since 9/11.

8. Fanatical Islam has basically been contained to the Middle East but a wall between India and Pakistan would be a plus for world peace. Ditto for a wall between Afghahistan and Pakistan.

9.Timothy McVeigh was executed. Terry Nichols will follow soon.

10. Eric Rudolph is spending three life terms in prison with no parole.

11. Jim Jones, David Koresh, Kaczynski, the "nuns" from Rwanda, and the KKK were all dealt with and either eliminated themselves or are being punished.

12. Islamic Sudan, Darfur and Somalia are still terror hot spots. The US continues to target Islamic terrorists in Somalia via missile strikes.

13. The terror and torture of Muslims in Bosnia, Kosovo and Kuwait were ended by the proper application of the military forces of the USA and her freedom-loving friends.

14. And of course the bloody terror brought about the Japanese, Nazis and Communists was with great difficulty eliminated by the good guys.

"You go into these small towns in Pennsylvania and, like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not.

And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy toward people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."

Well. Americans have loved God and guns for a long time. In fact, our founders wrote the right to cling to God and guns into the fabric of our government..

Forget the words of the former pastor. Its Obama's words that won't be forgotten by many voters.

Ahmed -

You make a number of cogent observations. In fact, the American public has been led by the nose through skewed and disingenuous media reporting for the last 7 going on 8 years.

True journalistic reporting has disappeared altogether, and instead we have had a rampant lack of truth telling all this time, with mainly positive spin about the progress in Iraq and Afghanistan - occasionally they do seem to be required to mention to growing number of dead (both good and bad guys, but the dead bad guys get more coverage).

Petraeus has become the media face of the Iraqi war, effectively replacing Bush as the front man. Nothing but positive news on John McCain and the surge, of course. And naturally he benefits from all this drawnout dissention among democrats. Hillary has new life as well.........

In any event, whether Obama's former preacher is Wright or wrong, he has probably done serious harm to Obama's presidential efforts - the media seems to relish this turn of events and feeds fuel to the fire. Surely anyone associated with Obama and his campaign would know that negative news will be capitalized on by forces antagonistic to his eventual nomination - if a white guy with genuine war credentials like John Kerry can be effectively swiftboated by the liars and dissembling aholes of the Republican National Committee, imagine how much more fragile and vulnerable Obama's position today.

So what we're perpetually stuck with is an uninformed but entertained general public that continues to be saturated with nothing but yellow 'journalism' by media figures turned tabloid gossip columnists. They have their marching orders - before long, Rupurt Murdoch should own much of what passes for mainstream media outlets, both printed and spoken - despite the anti-trust laws on the books that were designed to prevent monopolistic takeovers.

This is indeed an Alice in Wonderland world we're living in.........

A 2 part question.
part 1: Wright is an educated bigot. I really don't care what HE says, the man has a right to speak. It is the response of the man who wants to be president that is important.
Part 2: For 20 years Obama sat there and listened, he contributed big bucks Yet, he never heard a racist word or read the racist bulletin? This demonstrates an abysmal lack of judgement and spine. As for people up in arms about this, look if one follows the words of MLK, and judge by character and not color, both Obama and Wright come out on the short end. It's a shame.

If Sally is feeling so passionate about the racism of white America-

I suggest she fire all her servants- her drivers and maids and landscapers. If she believes in social equality and wants to see social justice in her own life. She can begin by driving herself, cleaning her own houses, and mowing her own lawns..

?

They want people to question Obama's interigity and they do not want him to win the nomination. I can not judge his style of preaching because I have never heard him in church. I have only heard parts of his sermond on television. But,I can say when he spoke I was educated on things I did not know. His question and answer session was a bit sarcastic, arrogant, and narcistic I think he could have found a better way of conveying his message to the people, maybe they would have accepted it better, because it was the truth.

Image this.......the end,....
..your games of munipulation have run its course........good-bye is in order.