Readers’ Responses to Our Question (151)

Ah Mr. Smith you'd look a lot more fair and objective if you didn't people the same trick the Jihadis did and take the quote out of the context in which it was given.

Interesting that Benedict should take a swipe at Islam by quoting a certain individual from 14 th century not known for his brilliance and at the same time touting his own religion as being consistent with reason. Does that reasoning begin with an interesting conception from a god and human of a diety not unlike the Greek and Roman legends? Or does that include the ability of the worshipped hero being able to walk on water?

Or does Benedict mean that reason and faith meaning whatever seems reasonable in your faith?

PS holy father, how many holes do you need to have before you are considered holy?

The Pope should be building a Christian army to defend the faithful from Muslim death squads. You know, the Muslims who think it is their right and duty to slaughter any Christian they come across.

farnaz- part of the pluralism we enjoy in america includes understanding the expressions people from other traditions use-

one doesn't need to precondition that another be conversant in every idiom and subtlety of language differences to communicate-

otherwise, we'd only talk to people who look and think like we do-

i, myself, often use terms that i know others are familiar with- to facilitate communication and familiarity-

it's a gesture of respect-

its why i used the term 'revert' to amro- as he said he is a muslim-
(although for some reason it seemed to confuse him.)

rick, is not a muslim.
nor a new yorker- (easily surmised by his monker which contains his location)

i have a saying i repeat on these boards- and do myself.

let people define themselves-

i don't tell jewish people what they believe, nor christians- nor hindus, nor atheists etc...

but allow them to speak for themselves-
it's not my place to speak for others-
its arrogant and condescending,and disrespectful-

especially when one is only pointing out erroneous negative impressions based upon anecdotal incidences- or worse- one's own limited life experiences- as if they suffice one to speak for all of humanity-

i have known countless christians who turn the other cheek- and people from various backgrounds-

and you are just plain wrong about the concept of forgiveness in islam-

you are projecting your own limited heart condition on others, and limiting their capacity for goodness in doing so.

have suspicion for the good in people, as opposed to having suspicion for the bad-
and that is what you will find in others-

and we also overlook such miniscule differences such as calling an ummah(community) as congregation- because, in fact- a gathering of people IS a congregation- literally-

i don't go to the suburbs, and have been to several mosques in long island- and they are fine, as my own mosque and neighborhood are fine.

and i studied for 5 years with one of the sharpest minds in islam in america, but sadly , he is with us no more.

for your perusal- a few quick ayats (verses) from the qur'an on forgiveness-

42:37 and who shun the more heinous sins and abominations; and who, whenever they are moved to anger, readily forgive;

42:43 But withal, if one is patient in adversity and forgives - this, behold, is indeed something to set one’s heart upon! [42]

2:109 Out of their selfish envy, many among the followers of earlier revelation would like to bring you back to denying the truth after you have attained to faith - [even] after the truth has become clear unto them. None the less, forgive and forbear, until God shall make manifest His will: behold, God has the power to will anything.

11:11 [And thus it is with most men-] save those who are patient in adversity and do righteous deeds: it is they whom forgiveness of sins awaits, and a great reward.

Well, Tolle was chosen for Oprah's book club, made a fortune. The new Deepak Chopra.

No doubt, this is the new new, and the one true path.

For my money, there is no true way, including yours, CCNL, not by far. Religion is religion, accommodating the ideology of various nation states. That's what it is here, everyhere, now and throughout the ages.

only a fool can believe as I have, no point in posting truthful comments when the mind is made up to believe in a lie.

good luck 2 u

how mistaken u r, nothing 2 it never has been never will be, just a ride to simplify time constraints.

I know who I trust for my future, I wait for u, no intetest anywhere else.. a cup of water cannot put out a fire.

Alina,

Yes, I will ask for you. I would like to meet you, too.

Farnaz

Farnaz,

Yes, that is the one I mean. I go to the Center several afternoons a week. If you come, please ask for Alina H. I would like to speak with you if that is all right. It is good for Muslims and Jews to speak. It is good that you have Muslim friends and know people from the Center.

Alina

Alina,

Which Mehtab do you mean? I don't want to use last names. . . .

Do you mean the Mehtab, who must be in her mid-thirties, very kind, helpful, smart, beautiful?

Farnaz

Farnaz,

You mention the Westbury Islamic Center. Do you know Mehtab?

Rick Jones:

Amro is correct from beginning to end. Also, FYI, Long Island is not considered to be part of Brooklyn. I am an Iranian Jew, with many Muslim friends. The Westbury Islamic Center is a place for serious study, with an excellent faculty, and it does important work.

I grew up with Muslims, and I know something about Islam, nothing compared to what Amro, Egyptian and Muslim knows. Forgiveness is central to Catholicism, so is turning the other cheek, although in my lifetime, I have seen very few Christians do either one. Christianity understands justice to be in opposition to forgiveness, justice the provenance of a wrathful Old Testament God. Judaism and Islam do not see justice in this way. No Jew, no Muslim, would blame Josh for what he wrote. No Muslim would blame anyone for speaking of his suffering.

(Not all Catholics are the same, of course. Did you read Christine and Pat's responses to Josh? Did you read Josh's reply to Christine?)

Another thing: I have never heard a Muslim use the word "congregation." You say she "know[s] the whole congregation by name."

What "congregation"? What are you talking about?

"[N]itwit," is not how I will characterize you.

Not yet....

Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,

Hmmm, name change??

And no matter how you look at Islam, the following has not changed:

Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" aka "pretty wingie thingies" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

Rick Jones writes:

Yepper, you and J are still my favorite bloggers, and the most enlightened souls on these threads.

I can't believe that some Nut was accusing you of being more Catholic than Muslim and wanting to take you to a Mosk in Brooklyn. What a nitwit! You know the whole congregation by name.

I don't know what you know about Islam, but, evidently, not much. Muslims would never blame Josh for revealing what occurred to his nephew. They would never ask him to forgive, certainly not at this point. He, as a Jew, did not raise the issue. It was not his point. Muslims would never accuse him of trying to inflame hatred. His post was in reply to questions.

Muslims do not call people they do not know "nitwits."

Muslims know the difference between "reverted" and "converted."
.................................................
Let anyone tell me that this is Islamic thinking:
.
im a muslim who reverted from catholicism-

frankly, the hate and ugliness that some have found in catholicism, or christianity- were never my experiences.

the vicarious "horror' stories (i guess intended to inflame some hatred towards any who are in the group of offenders) are really what is out of place in this forum.

but josh is 16- so let's hope he will find some forgivessness in his heart- or it will foment into bitterness-

turn inward josh- christians arent your enemies-

theres a story in the ny post about a muslim man who defended (and got beaten for) some jewish youngsters during hannukah- they called it a hannukah miracle. just a few months ago-

muslims have been reaching out to this pope for the past 2 years- and with some success.

the former pope John Paul II, was the first pope in all of history to reach out to jews, even apologizing for the actions of christians for all time- and inviting khatami, a muslim, to visit him in the vatican.

theres much bigger issues than the personal intentions of this pope-

numerically, islam has the most adherents on the planet- followed next by catholics-

muslims and christians comprise almost half of the people in the world-

i wish i could see more effort in this forum to foster peace between us- and move past some of our ingrained and indoctrinated assumptions...

peace all

April 12, 2008 5:58 PM | Report Offensive Comments

Worth repeating:

The Crises in the contemporary Catholic Church:

1. The inappropriate conduct of many priests, the emotional stress on the victims and the resultant billion dollars in lawsuits,

2. The lack of talent in the priesthood.

3. The lack of Vatican response to the historic Jesus movement.

4. The Church's continuing cling to original sin and the resulting subsets of crazy ideas like limbo.

5. The denial of priesthood to women.

6. The restriction of priesthood to single men (unless you are former Episcopalian priests),

7. And the continued chain of Vatican "leadership" by old European white men.

Some explanation about OX chapter(second chapter of the Book)

OX/COW chapter says *...but righteous is he who believeeth in Allah(not God of Christians,not Father of Jesus) and the Last Day(not second-coming,only islamic Last Day) and the angels and the Scripture(it is very important,lets be careful.There is only and only one Scripture,The Law,Bible,Vedas are not scripture.For example,if you believe in Vedas,you never go to islamic Paradise where 72 virgin girls waiting you)

*....such as the pious(this word means *true beliver muslim*,nothing else).

Briefly,according to OX chapter,if you believe in Allah(only and only Allah) and Scripture(absolutely means Quran) and if you wash your brain in arabic five times in a day,you may go to islamic garden of Bliss where wine rivers and women as *EGG*(such as written,that means white women) and young girls whose breasts budded(that means girls of 11/12 year-old) exist.

In other words,if you believe in Bible,Trinity,Son of God,Vedas,Paganism,Wiccan,Chinese-Japanese beliefs and Africans and secular muslims(to me,more than half of muslims),you shall forget islamic paradise.

I couldnt write much more,I watching Horse Races and later SAS-LAL NBA game.

good to have a voice of reason and balance in here again rick :)

B16 like many of us suffers from the Three B Syndrome i.e. he was Bred, Born and Brainwashed in his religion. For this reason, he is unable to think past the shackles put upon him by the likes of Paul, Mark, Matthew, Luke and John.

The wishful thinking done by these five scribes approximately 2000 years ago continued the embellishment and fiction tradition of the Jewish scribes. The locals paid for a good story of myth and imminent second coming. There was no money in the truth but now we know the truth and it boils down to two simple statements, Do No Harm and Love Thy Neighbor as Yourself!!!!!!!!

So who needs popes, bishops, priests, rabbis, imams, clerics and monks?????

Hi Victoria,

Yepper, you and J are still my favorite bloggers, and the most enlightened souls on these threads.

I can't believe that some Nut was accusing you of being more Catholic than Muslim and wanting to take you to a Mosk in Brooklyn. What a nitwit! You know the whole congregation by name.

sorry for the double post-
i stopped i when i noticed i hadnt put my name on it-
hi rick!- long time no see-
i haven't been on this blog much-
glad i caught your post-

"Say: O People of the Scripture! Come to a COMMON WORD between us and
you: that we shall worship none but God, and that we shall ascribe no
partner unto Him, and that none of us shall take others for lords beside
God. And if they turn away, then say: Bear witness that we are they who
have surrendered (unto Him). (Aal ‘Imran 3:64)"

here's an excerpt from "A Common Word", the letter sent to the Pope by 138 Islamic scholars-

God says in
the Holy Qur’an:
*************************
"It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces to the East and the West;
but righteous is he who believeth in God and the Last Day and the angels
and the Scripture and the prophets; and giveth wealth, for love of Him, to
kinsfolk and to orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and to those who
ask, and to set slaves free; and observeth proper worship and payeth the
poor-due. And those who keep their treaty when they make one, and the
patient in tribulation and adversity and time of stress. Such are they who
are sincere. Such are the pious. (Al-Baqarah 2:177)
And also:
Ye will not attain unto righteousness until ye expend of that which ye love.
And whatsoever ye expend, God is Aware thereof. (Aal ‘Imran, 3:92)"
***********************************

give to the poor, keep your word, be patient in adversity- humanist, buddhist, jew,christian, hindu-

these are universal words for all people-
their beauty and practical wisdom are self-evident-
peace

on the hi bridge.

any bridge need solid ground first,if there is no ground there is no bridge.

the big question and the biger picture is what is the common ground among mankind? in order to make the bridge?

the ever solid steel ground among mankind that you can guranteely build any soild bridge is the creator of mankind ,people will never ever integrate under no banner save this banner,please read history .

the theology of the son of god and the infallible pope does not have any ground in reality the prove is plain and clear ,all jeudochristianity on secular law and secular way of life, jeudochristianity is limited to the boundry of the church ,god in the church and ceaser in the life ground field ???????????

the theology of the son of god and the infallible pope and the trinity of god never even worked in the christian world ????????what bridges in the christian world?where?how?since when??????????????.

spreading the above bridge of the son of god and the infallible pope and the trinity of god to the islamic world is another serious delusion ,even the dumbest muslim in the world will never buy that ,even the dumbest muslim in the word know that his creator god is one not 2 not 3 not multiple heads .

the christian world will do an excellent favoir to humanity and the world if they even know their creator god .

Victoria:

Appropos of Amro's post, may I suggest the Westbury Islamic Center in Long Island? It's quite close to Queens, and although I am Jewish, not Muslim, I know a number of the wonderful people who teach and work there.

I would be happy to meet you there at a time convenient for us both, bringing along with me the Muslim friend who introduced me to the Center, a very knowledgeable, generous woman, who would gladly help you in any way she could.

Josh:

I am Egyptian, Muslim. Victoria is as Muslim as you are. We do not blame the victim, and neither does Judaism, as you know, of course.

Victoria:

Your entire post is Catholic from beginning to end. Your "defense of Muslims" misrepresents us. I don't know what you're up to, but I would like you to stop. Converting to Islam takes about thirty seconds. Studying Islam, living as a Muslim, is another matter.

You say you live in Queens. If you want to study Islam, I'm sure there are Muslims who can direct you to the right schools.

The pope as Cesar. . . . Hmmm..yes, apt.

Render unto Cesar that which is Cesar's.

And here he comes, saving the expense of a tax collector: Pope Benedict XVI.

Let us try one more time to summarize the Crises in the contemporary Catholic Church:

1. The inappropriate conduct of many priests, the emotional stress on the victims and the resultant billion dollars in lawsuits,

2. The lack of talent in the priesthood.

3. The lack of Vatican response to the historic Jesus movement.

4. The Church's continuing cling to original sin and the resulting subsets of crazy ideas like limbo.

5. The denial of priesthood to women.

6. The restriction of priesthood to single men (unless you are former Episcopalian priests),

7. And the continued chain of Vatican "leadership" by old European white men.

Anon:

Googled, and don't get relevance. Also spit and well.

Please simply contextualize, if you'd like to be understood. Otherwise, no problem.

Ken

Hmmm, my commentary about the Pope appears to have offended someone at WaPo although there appears to be nothing but the obvious in the comments.

Let us try one more time:

A very, very abbreviated version,

The Pope visiting the US is not going to solve the crises in the Church.

Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,

Hmmm, Muslims outnumbering Christians? Not so.

And since Sunnis have declared Shiites as less than infidels, the numbers are even smaller with Catholics outnumbering Sunnis.

But does it really matter? If you corrected flaws and errors in Christianity and Islam, you end up with a single group whose single motto is "Do no harm"so welcome to the reality of it all!!! And look at the money we would save i.e. no Pope, no priests, no imams, no clerics, no churches, and no mosques.

Ken-

"First comes Saturday, then Sunday."

is an old Arabic proverb.

Google it for the meaning..

Anonymous:

What well? What spit? What's up with Saturday and Sunday, with whose sequence we are all familiar?

What do you mean? And what is the point?

im a muslim who reverted from catholicism-

frankly, the hate and ugliness that some have found in catholicism, or christianity- were never my experiences.

the vicarious "horror' stories (i guess intended to inflame some hatred towards any who are in the group of offenders) are really what is out of place in this forum.

but josh is 16- so let's hope he will find some forgivessness in his heart- or it will foment into bitterness-

turn inward josh- christians arent your enemies-

theres a story in the ny post about a muslim man who defended (and got beaten for) some jewish youngsters during hannukah- they called it a hannukah miracle. just a few months ago-

muslims have been reaching out to this pope for the past 2 years- and with some success.

the former pope John Paul II, was the first pope in all of history to reach out to jews, even apologizing for the actions of christians for all time- and inviting khatami, a muslim, to visit him in the vatican.

theres much bigger issues than the personal intentions of this pope-

numerically, islam has the most adherents on the planet- followed next by catholics-

muslims and christians comprise almost half of the people in the world-

i wish i could see more effort in this forum to foster peace between us- and move past some of our ingrained and indoctrinated assumptions...

peace all

The Pope baptizing a Muslim sounds to me like a Republican or Democratic Senator or Congressman being praised for changing sides. The faith of the different denominations and religious groups is very reminiscent of political parties. Each has its version of the "faith" and is usually firmly convinced it is the only correct one. Or worse, that "faith" is the basis of very human prejudices or personal advantages to be gained. But in the end it is just a belief to bolster one's self or party. - Virtually no one adherent to any faith practices it 24/7/365. It is just not convenient or practical for most, when it fails to meet the desired objectives.
A born again Christian ends up to be the new century's worst war monger, who believes that it is ok for us to have the bomb, but not for some others, because THEY are not trustworthy in their objectives. The BIG preachers in the US are self-indulgent, frequently with questionable morals, building their churches into big businesses. And then there is radical Islam's leaders who misuse the Koran to gain their ends. And the Pope, God's messenger on earth is elected after much politicking among the Catholic cardinals. At least he is learned and the Peter principle does not apply to all religious leaders.
All idols have clay feet.

I was inspired enough to write this blog from an article called The Spiritual Connection which I read in the 2008 May issue of Oprah, and mostly by a statement made that said: The New Age movement was really self-focused and self-directed, now we yearn for unity, for connection and community. We want to take care of the planet and we're asking "what is my purpose?". So I'd like to admit I'm fortunate enough to be linked into a Buddhist society where we live and work in our communities but focus our energies toward "our purpose" and that it is open the way for others to realize their inherent Buddha nature. I am pleased that this mindset is permeating our universe and pleased to be part of this goal.

What I read here is mishegas-

Maybe you forgot-

First comes Saturday, then Sunday.

and again:

Don't spit into the well - you might drink from it later.

But--I'll leave you with one question. Which Catholic has to wrestle with interfaith issues betw. Muslim Christian and Jew? The woman who lives in multicultural London or the woman whose big event is seeing a moose--assuming, of course, the moose isn't Catholic?

Pat and Christine,

It's a free blog the last time I looked so I'll post when I want--which isn't very often. I tend not to judge other Catholics, unlike you--but hey! nobody's perfect.

But you are more Protestant than Catholic and I very much doubt Christine ever attends Mzss.

Hi Pat,

Thank you for your post. I won't reply to Mary Cunningham because I know her. But I will pray for her.

Christine

Mary Cunningham:

Please don't post on this blog. You make all of us look ugly.

Christine,

Welcome back to the Church. I'm terribly sorry about your sister. Please don't respond to Mary Cunningham. I wish I could say she really isn't a Catholic, but I fear she is, in the lieral sense, that is.

Fr. Joe sounds like quite the radical. I don't know where you live, but here in the wild Wyoming hinterlands, we have Fr. Frank, who also believes we'd be better off without Rome. Then, there's his interet in Catholic rap, I kid you not.

I guess at fifty-eight, I'm too set in my ways for Fr. Frank, although I think he's a good man.

Josh,

What Christine says is true, notwithstanding Mary Cunningham. We aren't all a bunch of violent bigots. If my son had seen what those thugs were doing to your nephew, believe me, he would have stopped them. Farnaz asks about our hardened hearts, blindness. It is a fallen world, my friend, and, alas, many of us are without the love for Christ we profess.

Bless you, all.

Are you sure Fr Joe is not a Rev Hagee type? Y'know, trawling the earth for evidence of injustice by Catholics? I came from that background only it was injustice *against* Catholics, and God knows, by or against, it is no way to view the world.

There is injustice aplenty to go 'round--man is made from crooked wood--but Fr Joe should not be filling your heart with hatred against Catholics and the Church but leading it upwards.

Are you sure you're not an Ian Paisley type (before he stopped, it's stopped in Northern Ireland now) Presbyterian?

Well, Christine. I guess I won't bother you with facts as you've made up your mind.

FWIW your post seem's pretty ignorant, even about my exchange with Chaterjee which was about the legitimacy of sharia in Britain (it has none unlike Beth Din).

You don't seem very Catholic to me, hating the Vatican and the Church itself as you do and exalting Fr Joe above all others. Where do you live anyway? Britain? Ireland? Northern Ireland? Was your sister murdered by Unionists? The IRA? And Father Joe. Surely he can't be Catholic. Does he omit Pope Benedict from the prayers said at every Mass?

Tell me, just as a test, what colour vestments does the priest wear in Lent? At Easter? After Pentecost? (Assuming Fr Joe still wears vestments.) What is the response to
Sursum Corda?
(Lift up your hearts)

Mary Cunningham:

Indeed, I know everything about you. I've known you all my life, and because of you, I left the church.

I also know about the anti-semitism in England and many other places from Fr. Joe. I know about the young girl who was beaten so badly that she had to be hospitalized because when stopped in the street and asked if she was Jewish, she answered, "I am English."

I know about Tony Blair's commissioned report on antisemitsm and the horrible findings, also because of Fr. Joe. He made us read all of it. Have you read it, Mary Cunningham?

You read Josh's post. Do you say anything to him about what happened to his nephew? To Liora, who, despite what she's been through, still tries to teach her students about Flannery O'Connnor's Catholicism? To Serena? To Sivan? To Jay?

I try to tell Josh that we are not all bigots like you, and then up you turn to show that you are worse than I had imagined. In the midst of his ordeal, he expresses sorrow for my sister's murder. He does this, Mary Cunningham, and you, a self-professed Catholic, do not.

You used to post constantly against Deb Chatterjee, defending Muslims, only because you are afraid of them, as I always suspected.

Far From Serene is not a bigot like you, Mary Cunningham. I think he just got angry, at the moment because he couldn't or wasn't following the discourse.

I know you Mary Cunningham. You are my trial.

May God have mercy on your soul.

PS Since I'll probably get charged with racism by not including the French, Lith. &tc originally I will say it's because they are here temporarily before returning to their country of origin.

On another note I think it remarkable that two of the worst, ehmm, angry anti-Catholics (with capital letters too so I guess I should write ANGRY ANTI-CATHOLICS) are--of all things!--teachers. And of English too. Jesus weeps.

Oh well, I guess it could be worse. They could be teaching philosophy or logic. But I fear for their students.

Christine,

You know nothing about me.

I probably know a lot more Muslims than you: London is a city of 8 million people, about 1 million Muslims, maybe 1 million Catholics*. The Muslims are generally first and second generation migrants originally emigrating from Bangla Desh. Most of England's Jews live in London as well, but their numbers are much smaller: about 250,000. We have all manage to live together somehow, no thanks to folks like some found here. There have been terrible anti-Catholic riots in London, mostly egged on by the Whigs, secular liberals like oh! Liora & co., but it all happened centuries ago.

I do not fear Muslims in general but only a fool would not be wary of/take precautions against dangerous people from the Islamist fringe....well, there are plenty of those here! (Fools not the Islamist right). Although I must say I enjoyed "Far from serene"'s posts.

Well done far from serene.

*Probably more like 2 million Catholics if you count the Poles, Lithuanians, French, &tc.

CCNL:

Please, not now. You may be right, but this isn't the moment. Maybe, you have something else to say to Josh.

Christine

If the pope, preachers, rabbis, and imams/clerics would address the flaws in their religions, the hatred amongst the religions would cease and the Joshs of the world would not have to experience said hate.

To wit:

" Apparently the only "proof" that David even existed other than the highly fictionalized OT, is one piece of broken pottery with some inscriptions with a variety of translations of said inscriptions.

The "powerfull" biblical King David should have left much archeological evidence/proof but none has been found. e.g. jewels, weapons, homes, grave, religious artifacts, non-Jewish attestations.

And what is really odd is for the scripture writers to show that Jesus came from the family of David. This however would require that Joseph was the father of Jesus. So which is it? Joseph was the father or the holy ghost did the deed? If it were the hg, then Jesus was not a descendent of David. "

“Why this association was important in first century Palestine was addressed by "Stories circulated to the effect that Alexander of Macedonia was not only the son of Philip II, but also of the god Zeus-Ammon (Plutarch, Parallel Lives, "Alexander" 2.1-3.2); Plato was the son of Ariston and the god Apollo (Diogenes Laertius, Lives of Eminent Philosophers 3.1-2), and Augustus was the son of Octavius as well as the god Apollo (Suetonius, Lives o f the Caesars 2.4.1-7). The extraordinary character of these elites reputedly stemmed from both their divine origins and their kingroups. Their kin-groups provided one form of legitimation-political right to the throne and/or social status (thus the importance of Joseph in Matthew's genealogy). Their divine procreation provided another: their honor was divinely ascribed, and their greatness as leaders derived from divine paternity."

From: K.C. Hanson and D. E. Oakman, Palestine in the Time of Jesus, Fortress Press, 1998. p.55”

See also: faithfutures.org/index.php/368_Genealogy_of_Jesus

More flaws:

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was either the embellishment of the lives of three different men or a mythical character as was Moses, the "Tablet-Man" who talked to burning bushes and made much magic in Egypt.

1.5 million Conservative Jews and their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT.
simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

2. Jesus, the illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter/simple preacher man possibly suffering from hallucinations, has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics. earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

For added "pizzazz", Catholic/Christian theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "filicider".

3. Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingie thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

4. Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab who also had embellishing/ hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the assassination of Bhutto, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.

And who funds these acts of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

Hi Christine,

Thank you very much for your post. I'm very, very sorry about your sister.

Josh

Josh,

I am a Catholic Christian, and I want you to know that we aren't all like that. We really aren't. What happened to your nephew, what the others have said they've experienced makes me heartsick.

The Catholic church is desperately in need of reform, not just in the US, but worldwide, and Protestants need to face a few facts, as well. My own priest is the most decent man I have ever met. After my parochial school education, I left the church for ten years, and never would have returned since, frankly, I percieved it as hate filled, fear-inspiring, and, in many ways, it was, and still is.

My sister had told me about the church I now attend, and Fr. Joe, but I wasn't interested. I never would have gone back, except that she was mudered, and that was how I got to meet Fr. Joe. Our crimes against the Jewish people are continually brought home to us in his Church, in ways that would surely get him sanctioned if more people knew about what he says, how he conducts masses, etc.

There are Catholics out there who are repelled by this racism, sickened by it. I'm printing this thread out and bringing it with me to Bible study. Yes, we have Bible study.

We have a long way to go, Josh, a long, long way, us Catholics, and Benedict won't get us there, nowhere near it. Like Fr. Joe says, we don't need a Vatican. It holds us back.

I'm sorry, Josh. May God keep and protect you and your family.

Liora:

I read both your post on this thread and on Rabbi Kula's. You said nothing wrong on either one. Thank you for researching Flannery O'Connor's Catholicism and trying to teach it to your students.

Mary Cunningham is a bigoted old church lady, terrified of Muslims, who probably wears sensible shoes to compensate for her insensibility.

Serena:

You are right. New Yorkers don't need to pay anything for this Pope's trip. They shouldn't have to. He's not fit to lead a head of cattle.

Thank you for your concern and good wishes, everyone. They mean a great deal to me. Ari is okay now, thank God.

The incident occurred about about two months ago, just short of Ari's eighth birthday. Dan and Yael, my brother and his wife, send him to a Hebrew school which is across the street from a gigantic church that takes up an entire city block (all four corners). The tiny synagogue, which is across the street houses the school. It's almost allegorical.

At any rate, Ari and three other boys were always walked home by a teenage girl, simply because they are little boys, and one doesn't let little boys walk home by themselves in the five boroughs.
I don't know how or why a group of Catholic school kids from the giantic church, kids about twelve or thirteen started harassing them, just verbal abuse, then a little pushing. We later learned that the girl told the teacher, who told the rabbi, who told the priest, who told the principal.

The upshot? Nada. They started taking a different route home, but the thugs followed them. The whole cycle with the rabbi began again, but this time the rabbi called the boys' parents, as well. Dan and Yael intervened with the principal, but, again, nada, and they also took more protective measures. In the meantime, all of this was kept from Ari's older brother, easily kept, since between Stuyvesant, Karate classes, and Karate competitions, he's always out.

It wasn't that they were afraid that Ad would use his potentially lethal hands against the thugs--I don't know what they feared--but it turned out that keeping it from him had been a mistake, since I believe Ad thinks he could have protected Ari from what later happened if he had known about the problem earlier.

Also, Dan and Yael couldn't do with Ari what they had done with Ad, give him karate classes, that is, because Ari had been a sickly child. Thank God, it seems that he will be all right, but it will be at least another year before we can be reasonably certain. Throughout all his hospitalizations, he's been such a trooper, such a champ. Ad is fiercely devoted to him. Maybe, that's why his parents didn't tell him. I don't know.

At any rate, one day, I guess the thugs had too much holy water, and they attacked, hurting the girl, Ari, and one of the other boys before two passing pedestrians, good samaritans, stopped them. Ari, the girl, and the other boy were brought to the emergency room, the others released after a few hours.

Ari had to be kept for thirty-six hours because, due to his pre-existing health problems, he suffered more serious injuries. He was unconscious when they brought him in. At the time, Ad was at a karate competition for which I am also grateful to God, atheist that I am. At all events, after this, there was no way to keep the whole hateful business from him, since the consequences of Ari's last encounter were visible.

Ad changed after that, and he hasn't yet come back to himself. Maybe Sivan is right. Maybe you can't be a Jew, even a Jewish atheist, in the Diaspora. The police were called in that last time, and, to make a long story short, the thugs were disciplined, albeit not much. Not enough for Ad, certainly, who quietly took matters into his own hands.

He sought out four twelve-year-olds with a year of karate training to even the score. The score was evened a couple of weeks later, with none of us even knowing what Ad had been up to, nor will we ever know the details, since he will not say how he managed it. I'll omit the rest of it, except to say, that along with the girl, two other students from Ad's karate school now walk the boys home.

Ari is physically recovered, but he doesn't understand the hatred. Ad hovers around him when he's home, hangs out less with his friends to be around him, but he doesn't say much to anyone else, yours truly, included. We've all tried to talk to him, and we've apologized, but so far, we haven't gotten anywhere.

At any rate, that's about it, except that Dan is my older brother, older by two years, an agnostic or closet atheist, and I guess I always looked up to him. He's brilliant, had been a star athlete in high school and college, more low key than I, with a great sense of humor. Now, he doesn't joke much, and I can't do anything.

I'm going to cut and paste your messages, and give them to Dan and Yael.

Thank you, my friends.

Josh

Josh,

I can only echo what has already been said. These incidents leave us all so paralyzed, so wordless.

Like your brother with Adam, I enrolled my daughter in self-defense classes, not judo or Karate, at first, just self-defense, when she was six. Nothing had happened yet. We are Israeli, and, you may not know this, but Israelis are only now waking up to some hard truths about this country because the government has kept so much from them, just as the media keeps so much about what happens in Israel from Americans.

At any rate, Ronit is now eleven, and quite proficient at karate, but nowhere near a brown belt like your nephew, Adam. She also has developed the appropriate language with which to defend herself against Christian people. Thank God, she has never been hurt, but she has had two physical fights, neither of which my husband nor I were happy about.

We came here because Ronit is a musical prodigy, and although we have no shortage of spectacular teachers in Israel, more than here, in fact, given a number of factors, her teachers advised that she study with one man, who happened to live in New York City.

We are returning in June. I cannot take it here anymore, and I don't want Ronit to grow up in this hate-filled atmosphere. Her teacher keeps begging us to stay, but we cannot do it, not to her, not to ourselves. She is anxious to go home, and so are we.

Josh, I don't know if you are familiar with the controversy that developed when A.B. Yehoshua said that the phrase Diasporic Jews is oxymoronic. He's always said it, but I guess this time within earshot of the wrong people.

But, he was right. They kill your soul, even here, Josh.

We are not religious people, my husband and I, but I will pray for you and for your family. May God keep them safe. May God protect and keep all of you safe.

Sivan

To repeat:

Spiderman2 aka Protestant Bible Thumper, Fortune Teller and Severely Brainwashed in that Old Time Religion,

Fools are those who have read only the bible. God cannot be proud of such lazy creations!!!!
To reiterate:

What "voodooer of the hoodoo" blessed you with such stupidity in the field of fortune telling and interpretations of said stupidity???

The reality of it all is that all "pew sitters" and "bowers" are coming to grips with the flaws in their religions and in ten years the religions of today will be unrecognizable or extinct as the "pretty and ugly wingie flying thingies" are finally buried in the piles of utter stupidity.

And some added reality:

Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingie thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

I thought Rabbi Irwin Kula made sense on this question.

Catholicism is the Devil's Church. It is wise and cunning. You may hate me for saying that but I believe that the Vatican is the seat of Satan from the start upto now.

Whenever the Vatican speaks or any of their high priests, take it with suspicion. It is WISE AND VERY CUNNING.

If you study their history, their downfall was caused when the Bible was distributed to the masses.

Soon, it will display it's true color and it will lead to it's devastation.

Josh,

My God, Josh! I don't know what to say about your nephew--How is he now? What about your brother and sister-in-law? How are they? When did this happen?

Josh, I know this is of little comfort, but Liora is right. We have all had such experiences in childhood, and they continue into adulthood, up until death. Here I am a darkly complected black woman, and since girlhood, I have faced more verbal and physical abuse for my Jewish identity than for my black. The little one must be taught the vocabulary of defense from the Christians.

I'm so sorry, Josh. I'm probably rambling.

Josh, please tell your family, people care about them, about what happened to them.

Serena

Jay, Jay, Jay,

You suggested that Mecca be turned into another Disney World after the collapse of Islam? I must of missed that suggestion. When and where did you make this proposal?? I have suggested the idea to Obfuscating Jihadist a few times recently on some other threads. Maybe we can both invest in the project. The heat in Mecca might be a major problem.

Hi Josh,

I am so very sorry about your nephew.
One is always at such a loss for words when these incidents occur. Although I doubt there are very many American Jews who have not experienced Christian antisemitic violence in childhood, one is still so saddened to hear of yet another small victim.

I do wish to God I had something wise or consoling to say.

I'm so sorry.

Liora

Why shouldn’t the Pope baptize anyone who wishes to convert? What right do Muslims have to be offended? Christians in the past have converted to Islam. Should Catholics be offended by that move? Both Islam and Christianity are proselytizing religions and as such, will accept those who wish to convert. For Islam to hold Catholicism to a different standard than Islam maintains in that respect is hypocritical.

The difference between the Pope’s moral and responsible approach and the prominent Islamic approach is that the Pope allowed a man to choose freely his beliefs after being persuaded. According to prevalent readings of Sharia in much of the world, that convert to Catholicism should be executed. The issue is not that the Pope highlights differences in the two faiths and discusses them, welcoming in those he and his Church persuade through that discussion, but that much of the Islamic world sets aside discussion in favor of the scimitar, gun, or bomb. The Pope used reason and persuasion within a context of free will, whereas much of Islam uses force.

At the same time, it is also true that the individuals of different faiths are not in direct contradiction to each other as human beings. This Pope and the Pope before him have gone out of their way to point out the common ground between Catholics and Muslims; the common humanity of all human beings, whether Catholic, Muslim, atheist, or Hindu; and most importantly, the common duty to love fellow men and women, whatever their beliefs. Both have held to the official Catholic position that, “The Church reproves, as foreign to the mind of Christ, any discrimination against men or harassment of them because of their race, color, condition of life, or religion.” (Nosra Aetate, 5). The Catholic Church has taken the far more "liberal" position – the position of freedom and Socratic dialogue – and in doing so built the bridge half way. (More bridges might be completed if prominent Imams and Ayatollahs proclaim vocally similar positions.)

Common humanity and love do not preclude a real, Socratic dialogue. Instead, they require it. Real dialogue respects differences, highlights differences, and reasons through them. This is exactly the type of scholarly approach that Benedict has taken and he owes no apologies.

Hi Josh,

I am so terribly, terribly sorry about your little nephew. When we first came to this country, we naively thought we were through with antisemitic racist violence. Only a few months later, some Christians did something to my then sixteen-year-old sister that I can't talk about.

I don't know what has so hardened the hearts of the Christians, what has so blinded them, what has made them so violent.

I am so sorry, Josh. That poor little boy.

Farnaz

The main problem with Roman Catholicism, and with most other sects of Christianity, is an antiquated and confused view on human sexuality.

Much of basic Christian teaching is now in sharp conflict with ordinary common-sense.

Josh,

I am sorry about your nephew. I don't know what to say. Ganging up on small children is an all-to-common practice among those who profess the religion of love.

That Yael is a cartoonist must be more than serendipity. I speak as a fellow nonobservant.

I humbly await your news from Yael.

Jay

Well-

Wapo wanted more control over the posters. Every thinking man has departed.

Look who's left posting and reading.

Jay,

What can I say? You're more than brilliant. You are a genius.

However, to be realistic, we must acknowledge that the Disney project will never come off. The comic book is another matter. Guess whose sister-in-law is a successful graphic novelist?

Now, I don't think she'd consider doing anything
on the scale of a comic book, but she'd certainly consider doing something. My eight-year-old nephew was assaulted by Catholic thugs on his way home from Hebrew school. They were older and bigger than he was. Yael and my brother went to see the principle of the Catholic school out of which the thugs crawled. Guess what came out of it? Nada.

Guess who was later informed of said incident? My nephew's teenage brown-belt brother. The rest is history, very unpleasant history for the thugs, who, would not let up on the Hebrew school children day after day.

But, Dan, my brother, and Yael have not recovered from any part of this episode. My little nephew doesn't understand it. Unfortunately, Adam, the older one does.

I'll get back to you on our more modest project, after I speak to Yael. And you are a genius, Jay. I'm honored to be corresponding with you.

Josh

I'll get back to you on the cartoon business. And you are a visionary, Jay.

Josh

Let's review:

Mary Cunningham, reacting to Liora's anti-Catholicism:

"Liora writes: 'the mayor's robbing the city blind for this old bigot [Pope Benedict]...given the Catholics and what they've done and continue to do to us'...Are your Catholic students aware of your visceral anti-Catholicism? If you are so angry at Catholics, why do you teach them?"

Liora, insinuating that Mary Cunningham is anti-semitic because of things she *didn't* say:

"Funny thing, Mary Cunningham, there are so many anti-semitic postings on this blog, and yet, I've never seen your Christian self posting in protest...Funny thing"

Serena, (this post speaks for itself):

"Mary Cunningham: That is Rabbi Kula, not Kula. Get it, Catholic?"

Me, an equal opportunity offender:

"Serena, Boy, do you seeth with toxic bile! Get it, JEW?"

Serena (who's THEY?) (and what's she even talking about?):

"Did you notice that Mary Cunningham wrote 'That will be all from me'? That's how they do."

Josh, joining the fray with well-deserved insults:

"how goes the corpse worshipping these days? Do you still carry it around nailed to a stick?...Get it, CATHOLIC?"

Me again, hitting the nerve!:

"Well, all I can say is keep up the tribal inbreeding, it certainly seems to be working, SUBHUMAN!"

Daniel in the Lion's Den, the only really decent one here:

"Surely you must have something better to do."

Liora (now it's an out-and-out free-for-all):

Pre-Neanderthal...we see what you really are... Vermin... racist, Cockroach"

So that's it. Well, at least it was fun.

i am really disgusted by the ugliness passing for dialogue here-