Benedict and Islam

Ah Mr. Smith you'd look a lot more fair and objective if you didn't people the same trick the Jihadis did and take the quote out of the context in which it was given.

Interesting that Benedict should take a swipe at Islam by quoting a certain individual from 14 th century not known for his brilliance and at the same time touting his own religion as being consistent with reason. Does that reasoning begin with an interesting conception from a god and human of a diety not unlike the Greek and Roman legends? Or does that include the ability of the worshipped hero being able to walk on water?

Or does Benedict mean that reason and faith meaning whatever seems reasonable in your faith?

PS holy father, how many holes do you need to have before you are considered holy?

The Pope should be building a Christian army to defend the faithful from Muslim death squads. You know, the Muslims who think it is their right and duty to slaughter any Christian they come across.

farnaz- part of the pluralism we enjoy in america includes understanding the expressions people from other traditions use-

one doesn't need to precondition that another be conversant in every idiom and subtlety of language differences to communicate-

otherwise, we'd only talk to people who look and think like we do-

i, myself, often use terms that i know others are familiar with- to facilitate communication and familiarity-

it's a gesture of respect-

its why i used the term 'revert' to amro- as he said he is a muslim-
(although for some reason it seemed to confuse him.)

rick, is not a muslim.
nor a new yorker- (easily surmised by his monker which contains his location)

i have a saying i repeat on these boards- and do myself.

let people define themselves-

i don't tell jewish people what they believe, nor christians- nor hindus, nor atheists etc...

but allow them to speak for themselves-
it's not my place to speak for others-
its arrogant and condescending,and disrespectful-

especially when one is only pointing out erroneous negative impressions based upon anecdotal incidences- or worse- one's own limited life experiences- as if they suffice one to speak for all of humanity-

i have known countless christians who turn the other cheek- and people from various backgrounds-

and you are just plain wrong about the concept of forgiveness in islam-

you are projecting your own limited heart condition on others, and limiting their capacity for goodness in doing so.

have suspicion for the good in people, as opposed to having suspicion for the bad-
and that is what you will find in others-

and we also overlook such miniscule differences such as calling an ummah(community) as congregation- because, in fact- a gathering of people IS a congregation- literally-

i don't go to the suburbs, and have been to several mosques in long island- and they are fine, as my own mosque and neighborhood are fine.

and i studied for 5 years with one of the sharpest minds in islam in america, but sadly , he is with us no more.

for your perusal- a few quick ayats (verses) from the qur'an on forgiveness-

42:37 and who shun the more heinous sins and abominations; and who, whenever they are moved to anger, readily forgive;

42:43 But withal, if one is patient in adversity and forgives - this, behold, is indeed something to set one’s heart upon! [42]

2:109 Out of their selfish envy, many among the followers of earlier revelation would like to bring you back to denying the truth after you have attained to faith - [even] after the truth has become clear unto them. None the less, forgive and forbear, until God shall make manifest His will: behold, God has the power to will anything.

11:11 [And thus it is with most men-] save those who are patient in adversity and do righteous deeds: it is they whom forgiveness of sins awaits, and a great reward.

Well, Tolle was chosen for Oprah's book club, made a fortune. The new Deepak Chopra.

No doubt, this is the new new, and the one true path.

For my money, there is no true way, including yours, CCNL, not by far. Religion is religion, accommodating the ideology of various nation states. That's what it is here, everyhere, now and throughout the ages.

only a fool can believe as I have, no point in posting truthful comments when the mind is made up to believe in a lie.

good luck 2 u

how mistaken u r, nothing 2 it never has been never will be, just a ride to simplify time constraints.

I know who I trust for my future, I wait for u, no intetest anywhere else.. a cup of water cannot put out a fire.

Alina,

Yes, I will ask for you. I would like to meet you, too.

Farnaz

Farnaz,

Yes, that is the one I mean. I go to the Center several afternoons a week. If you come, please ask for Alina H. I would like to speak with you if that is all right. It is good for Muslims and Jews to speak. It is good that you have Muslim friends and know people from the Center.

Alina

Alina,

Which Mehtab do you mean? I don't want to use last names. . . .

Do you mean the Mehtab, who must be in her mid-thirties, very kind, helpful, smart, beautiful?

Farnaz

Farnaz,

You mention the Westbury Islamic Center. Do you know Mehtab?

Rick Jones:

Amro is correct from beginning to end. Also, FYI, Long Island is not considered to be part of Brooklyn. I am an Iranian Jew, with many Muslim friends. The Westbury Islamic Center is a place for serious study, with an excellent faculty, and it does important work.

I grew up with Muslims, and I know something about Islam, nothing compared to what Amro, Egyptian and Muslim knows. Forgiveness is central to Catholicism, so is turning the other cheek, although in my lifetime, I have seen very few Christians do either one. Christianity understands justice to be in opposition to forgiveness, justice the provenance of a wrathful Old Testament God. Judaism and Islam do not see justice in this way. No Jew, no Muslim, would blame Josh for what he wrote. No Muslim would blame anyone for speaking of his suffering.

(Not all Catholics are the same, of course. Did you read Christine and Pat's responses to Josh? Did you read Josh's reply to Christine?)

Another thing: I have never heard a Muslim use the word "congregation." You say she "know[s] the whole congregation by name."

What "congregation"? What are you talking about?

"[N]itwit," is not how I will characterize you.

Not yet....

Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,

Hmmm, name change??

And no matter how you look at Islam, the following has not changed:

Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" aka "pretty wingie thingies" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

Rick Jones writes:

Yepper, you and J are still my favorite bloggers, and the most enlightened souls on these threads.

I can't believe that some Nut was accusing you of being more Catholic than Muslim and wanting to take you to a Mosk in Brooklyn. What a nitwit! You know the whole congregation by name.

I don't know what you know about Islam, but, evidently, not much. Muslims would never blame Josh for revealing what occurred to his nephew. They would never ask him to forgive, certainly not at this point. He, as a Jew, did not raise the issue. It was not his point. Muslims would never accuse him of trying to inflame hatred. His post was in reply to questions.

Muslims do not call people they do not know "nitwits."

Muslims know the difference between "reverted" and "converted."
.................................................
Let anyone tell me that this is Islamic thinking:
.
im a muslim who reverted from catholicism-

frankly, the hate and ugliness that some have found in catholicism, or christianity- were never my experiences.

the vicarious "horror' stories (i guess intended to inflame some hatred towards any who are in the group of offenders) are really what is out of place in this forum.

but josh is 16- so let's hope he will find some forgivessness in his heart- or it will foment into bitterness-

turn inward josh- christians arent your enemies-

theres a story in the ny post about a muslim man who defended (and got beaten for) some jewish youngsters during hannukah- they called it a hannukah miracle. just a few months ago-

muslims have been reaching out to this pope for the past 2 years- and with some success.

the former pope John Paul II, was the first pope in all of history to reach out to jews, even apologizing for the actions of christians for all time- and inviting khatami, a muslim, to visit him in the vatican.

theres much bigger issues than the personal intentions of this pope-

numerically, islam has the most adherents on the planet- followed next by catholics-

muslims and christians comprise almost half of the people in the world-

i wish i could see more effort in this forum to foster peace between us- and move past some of our ingrained and indoctrinated assumptions...

peace all

April 12, 2008 5:58 PM | Report Offensive Comments

Worth repeating:

The Crises in the contemporary Catholic Church:

1. The inappropriate conduct of many priests, the emotional stress on the victims and the resultant billion dollars in lawsuits,

2. The lack of talent in the priesthood.

3. The lack of Vatican response to the historic Jesus movement.

4. The Church's continuing cling to original sin and the resulting subsets of crazy ideas like limbo.

5. The denial of priesthood to women.

6. The restriction of priesthood to single men (unless you are former Episcopalian priests),

7. And the continued chain of Vatican "leadership" by old European white men.

Some explanation about OX chapter(second chapter of the Book)

OX/COW chapter says *...but righteous is he who believeeth in Allah(not God of Christians,not Father of Jesus) and the Last Day(not second-coming,only islamic Last Day) and the angels and the Scripture(it is very important,lets be careful.There is only and only one Scripture,The Law,Bible,Vedas are not scripture.For example,if you believe in Vedas,you never go to islamic Paradise where 72 virgin girls waiting you)

*....such as the pious(this word means *true beliver muslim*,nothing else).

Briefly,according to OX chapter,if you believe in Allah(only and only Allah) and Scripture(absolutely means Quran) and if you wash your brain in arabic five times in a day,you may go to islamic garden of Bliss where wine rivers and women as *EGG*(such as written,that means white women) and young girls whose breasts budded(that means girls of 11/12 year-old) exist.

In other words,if you believe in Bible,Trinity,Son of God,Vedas,Paganism,Wiccan,Chinese-Japanese beliefs and Africans and secular muslims(to me,more than half of muslims),you shall forget islamic paradise.

I couldnt write much more,I watching Horse Races and later SAS-LAL NBA game.

good to have a voice of reason and balance in here again rick :)

B16 like many of us suffers from the Three B Syndrome i.e. he was Bred, Born and Brainwashed in his religion. For this reason, he is unable to think past the shackles put upon him by the likes of Paul, Mark, Matthew, Luke and John.

The wishful thinking done by these five scribes approximately 2000 years ago continued the embellishment and fiction tradition of the Jewish scribes. The locals paid for a good story of myth and imminent second coming. There was no money in the truth but now we know the truth and it boils down to two simple statements, Do No Harm and Love Thy Neighbor as Yourself!!!!!!!!

So who needs popes, bishops, priests, rabbis, imams, clerics and monks?????

Hi Victoria,

Yepper, you and J are still my favorite bloggers, and the most enlightened souls on these threads.

I can't believe that some Nut was accusing you of being more Catholic than Muslim and wanting to take you to a Mosk in Brooklyn. What a nitwit! You know the whole congregation by name.

sorry for the double post-
i stopped i when i noticed i hadnt put my name on it-
hi rick!- long time no see-
i haven't been on this blog much-
glad i caught your post-

"Say: O People of the Scripture! Come to a COMMON WORD between us and
you: that we shall worship none but God, and that we shall ascribe no
partner unto Him, and that none of us shall take others for lords beside
God. And if they turn away, then say: Bear witness that we are they who
have surrendered (unto Him). (Aal ‘Imran 3:64)"

here's an excerpt from "A Common Word", the letter sent to the Pope by 138 Islamic scholars-

God says in
the Holy Qur’an:
*************************
"It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces to the East and the West;
but righteous is he who believeth in God and the Last Day and the angels
and the Scripture and the prophets; and giveth wealth, for love of Him, to
kinsfolk and to orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and to those who
ask, and to set slaves free; and observeth proper worship and payeth the
poor-due. And those who keep their treaty when they make one, and the
patient in tribulation and adversity and time of stress. Such are they who
are sincere. Such are the pious. (Al-Baqarah 2:177)
And also:
Ye will not attain unto righteousness until ye expend of that which ye love.
And whatsoever ye expend, God is Aware thereof. (Aal ‘Imran, 3:92)"
***********************************

give to the poor, keep your word, be patient in adversity- humanist, buddhist, jew,christian, hindu-

these are universal words for all people-
their beauty and practical wisdom are self-evident-
peace

on the hi bridge.

any bridge need solid ground first,if there is no ground there is no bridge.

the big question and the biger picture is what is the common ground among mankind? in order to make the bridge?

the ever solid steel ground among mankind that you can guranteely build any soild bridge is the creator of mankind ,people will never ever integrate under no banner save this banner,please read history .

the theology of the son of god and the infallible pope does not have any ground in reality the prove is plain and clear ,all jeudochristianity on secular law and secular way of life, jeudochristianity is limited to the boundry of the church ,god in the church and ceaser in the life ground field ???????????

the theology of the son of god and the infallible pope and the trinity of god never even worked in the christian world ????????what bridges in the christian world?where?how?since when??????????????.

spreading the above bridge of the son of god and the infallible pope and the trinity of god to the islamic world is another serious delusion ,even the dumbest muslim in the world will never buy that ,even the dumbest muslim in the word know that his creator god is one not 2 not 3 not multiple heads .

the christian world will do an excellent favoir to humanity and the world if they even know their creator god .

Victoria:

Appropos of Amro's post, may I suggest the Westbury Islamic Center in Long Island? It's quite close to Queens, and although I am Jewish, not Muslim, I know a number of the wonderful people who teach and work there.

I would be happy to meet you there at a time convenient for us both, bringing along with me the Muslim friend who introduced me to the Center, a very knowledgeable, generous woman, who would gladly help you in any way she could.

Josh:

I am Egyptian, Muslim. Victoria is as Muslim as you are. We do not blame the victim, and neither does Judaism, as you know, of course.

Victoria:

Your entire post is Catholic from beginning to end. Your "defense of Muslims" misrepresents us. I don't know what you're up to, but I would like you to stop. Converting to Islam takes about thirty seconds. Studying Islam, living as a Muslim, is another matter.

You say you live in Queens. If you want to study Islam, I'm sure there are Muslims who can direct you to the right schools.

The pope as Cesar. . . . Hmmm..yes, apt.

Render unto Cesar that which is Cesar's.

And here he comes, saving the expense of a tax collector: Pope Benedict XVI.

Let us try one more time to summarize the Crises in the contemporary Catholic Church:

1. The inappropriate conduct of many priests, the emotional stress on the victims and the resultant billion dollars in lawsuits,

2. The lack of talent in the priesthood.

3. The lack of Vatican response to the historic Jesus movement.

4. The Church's continuing cling to original sin and the resulting subsets of crazy ideas like limbo.

5. The denial of priesthood to women.

6. The restriction of priesthood to single men (unless you are former Episcopalian priests),

7. And the continued chain of Vatican "leadership" by old European white men.

Anon:

Googled, and don't get relevance. Also spit and well.

Please simply contextualize, if you'd like to be understood. Otherwise, no problem.

Ken

Hmmm, my commentary about the Pope appears to have offended someone at WaPo although there appears to be nothing but the obvious in the comments.

Let us try one more time:

A very, very abbreviated version,

The Pope visiting the US is not going to solve the crises in the Church.

Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,

Hmmm, Muslims outnumbering Christians? Not so.

And since Sunnis have declared Shiites as less than infidels, the numbers are even smaller with Catholics outnumbering Sunnis.

But does it really matter? If you corrected flaws and errors in Christianity and Islam, you end up with a single group whose single motto is "Do no harm"so welcome to the reality of it all!!! And look at the money we would save i.e. no Pope, no priests, no imams, no clerics, no churches, and no mosques.

Ken-

"First comes Saturday, then Sunday."

is an old Arabic proverb.

Google it for the meaning..

Anonymous:

What well? What spit? What's up with Saturday and Sunday, with whose sequence we are all familiar?

What do you mean? And what is the point?

im a muslim who reverted from catholicism-

frankly, the hate and ugliness that some have found in catholicism, or christianity- were never my experiences.

the vicarious "horror' stories (i guess intended to inflame some hatred towards any who are in the group of offenders) are really what is out of place in this forum.

but josh is 16- so let's hope he will find some forgivessness in his heart- or it will foment into bitterness-

turn inward josh- christians arent your enemies-

theres a story in the ny post about a muslim man who defended (and got beaten for) some jewish youngsters during hannukah- they called it a hannukah miracle. just a few months ago-

muslims have been reaching out to this pope for the past 2 years- and with some success.

the former pope John Paul II, was the first pope in all of history to reach out to jews, even apologizing for the actions of christians for all time- and inviting khatami, a muslim, to visit him in the vatican.

theres much bigger issues than the personal intentions of this pope-

numerically, islam has the most adherents on the planet- followed next by catholics-

muslims and christians comprise almost half of the people in the world-

i wish i could see more effort in this forum to foster peace between us- and move past some of our ingrained and indoctrinated assumptions...

peace all

The Pope baptizing a Muslim sounds to me like a Republican or Democratic Senator or Congressman being praised for changing sides. The faith of the different denominations and religious groups is very reminiscent of political parties. Each has its version of the "faith" and is usually firmly convinced it is the only correct one. Or worse, that "faith" is the basis of very human prejudices or personal advantages to be gained. But in the end it is just a belief to bolster one's self or party. - Virtually no one adherent to any faith practices it 24/7/365. It is just not convenient or practical for most, when it fails to meet the desired objectives.
A born again Christian ends up to be the new century's worst war monger, who believes that it is ok for us to have the bomb, but not for some others, because THEY are not trustworthy in their objectives. The BIG preachers in the US are self-indulgent, frequently with questionable morals, building their churches into big businesses. And then there is radical Islam's leaders who misuse the Koran to gain their ends. And the Pope, God's messenger on earth is elected after much politicking among the Catholic cardinals. At least he is learned and the Peter principle does not apply to all religious leaders.
All idols have clay feet.

I was inspired enough to write this blog from an article called The Spiritual Connection which I read in the 2008 May issue of Oprah, and mostly by a statement made that said: The New Age movement was really self-focused and self-directed, now we yearn for unity, for connection and community. We want to take care of the planet and we're asking "what is my purpose?". So I'd like to admit I'm fortunate enough to be linked into a Buddhist society where we live and work in our communities but focus our energies toward "our purpose" and that it is open the way for others to realize their inherent Buddha nature. I am pleased that this mindset is permeating our universe and pleased to be part of this goal.

What I read here is mishegas-

Maybe you forgot-

First comes Saturday, then Sunday.

and again:

Don't spit into the well - you might drink from it later.

But--I'll leave you with one question. Which Catholic has to wrestle with interfaith issues betw. Muslim Christian and Jew? The woman who lives in multicultural London or the woman whose big event is seeing a moose--assuming, of course, the moose isn't Catholic?

Pat and Christine,

It's a free blog the last time I looked so I'll post when I want--which isn't very often. I tend not to judge other Catholics, unlike you--but hey! nobody's perfect.

But you are more Protestant than Catholic and I very much doubt Christine ever attends Mzss.

Hi Pat,

Thank you for your post. I won't reply to Mary Cunningham because I know her. But I will pray for her.

Christine

Mary Cunningham:

Please don't post on this blog. You make all of us look ugly.

Christine,

Welcome back to the Church. I'm terribly sorry about your sister. Please don't respond to Mary Cunningham. I wish I could say she really isn't a Catholic, but I fear she is, in the lieral sense, that is.

Fr. Joe sounds like quite the radical. I don't know where you live, but here in the wild Wyoming hinterlands, we have Fr. Frank, who also believes we'd be better off without Rome. Then, there's his interet in Catholic rap, I kid you not.

I guess at fifty-eight, I'm too set in my ways for Fr. Frank, although I think he's a good man.

Josh,

What Christine says is true, notwithstanding Mary Cunningham. We aren't all a bunch of violent bigots. If my son had seen what those thugs were doing to your nephew, believe me, he would have stopped them. Farnaz asks about our hardened hearts, blindness. It is a fallen world, my friend, and, alas, many of us are without the love for Christ we profess.

Bless you, all.

Are you sure Fr Joe is not a Rev Hagee type? Y'know, trawling the earth for evidence of injustice by Catholics? I came from that background only it was injustice *against* Catholics, and God knows, by or against, it is no way to view the world.

There is injustice aplenty to go 'round--man is made from crooked wood--but Fr Joe should not be filling your heart with hatred against Catholics and the Church but leading it upwards.

Are you sure you're not an Ian Paisley type (before he stopped, it's stopped in Northern Ireland now) Presbyterian?

Well, Christine. I guess I won't bother you with facts as you've made up your mind.

FWIW your post seem's pretty ignorant, even about my exchange with Chaterjee which was about the legitimacy of sharia in Britain (it has none unlike Beth Din).

You don't seem very Catholic to me, hating the Vatican and the Church itself as you do and exalting Fr Joe above all others. Where do you live anyway? Britain? Ireland? Northern Ireland? Was your sister murdered by Unionists? The IRA? And Father Joe. Surely he can't be Catholic. Does he omit Pope Benedict from the prayers said at every Mass?

Tell me, just as a test, what colour vestments does the priest wear in Lent? At Easter? After Pentecost? (Assuming Fr Joe still wears vestments.) What is the response to
Sursum Corda?
(Lift up your hearts)

Mary Cunningham:

Indeed, I know everything about you. I've known you all my life, and because of you, I left the church.

I also know about the anti-semitism in England and many other places from Fr. Joe. I know about the young girl who was beaten so badly that she had to be hospitalized because when stopped in the street and asked if she was Jewish, she answered, "I am English."

I know about Tony Blair's commissioned report on antisemitsm and the horrible findings, also because of Fr. Joe. He made us read all of it. Have you read it, Mary Cunningham?

You read Josh's post. Do you say anything to him about what happened to his nephew? To Liora, who, despite what she's been through, still tries to teach her students about Flannery O'Connnor's Catholicism? To Serena? To Sivan? To Jay?

I try to tell Josh that we are not all bigots like you, and then up you turn to show that you are worse than I had imagined. In the midst of his ordeal, he expresses sorrow for my sister's murder. He does this, Mary Cunningham, and you, a self-professed Catholic, do not.

You used to post constantly against Deb Chatterjee, defending Muslims, only because you are afraid of them, as I always suspected.

Far From Serene is not a bigot like you, Mary Cunningham. I think he just got angry, at the moment because he couldn't or wasn't following the discourse.

I know you Mary Cunningham. You are my trial.

May God have mercy on your soul.

PS Since I'll probably get charged with racism by not including the French, Lith. &tc originally I will say it's because they are here temporarily before returning to their country of origin.

On another note I think it remarkable that two of the worst, ehmm, angry anti-Catholics (with capital letters too so I guess I should write ANGRY ANTI-CATHOLICS) are--of all things!--teachers. And of English too. Jesus weeps.

Oh well, I guess it could be worse. They could be teaching philosophy or logic. But I fear for their students.

Christine,

You know nothing about me.

I probably know a lot more Muslims than you: London is a city of 8 million people, about 1 million Muslims, maybe 1 million Catholics*. The Muslims are generally first and second generation migrants originally emigrating from Bangla Desh. Most of England's Jews live in London as well, but their numbers are much smaller: about 250,000. We have all manage to live together somehow, no thanks to folks like some found here. There have been terrible anti-Catholic riots in London, mostly egged on by the Whigs, secular liberals like oh! Liora & co., but it all happened centuries ago.

I do not fear Muslims in general but only a fool would not be wary of/take precautions against dangerous people from the Islamist fringe....well, there are plenty of those here! (Fools not the Islamist right). Although I must say I enjoyed "Far from serene"'s posts.

Well done far from serene.

*Probably more like 2 million Catholics if you count the Poles, Lithuanians, French, &tc.

CCNL:

Please, not now. You may be right, but this isn't the moment. Maybe, you have something else to say to Josh.

Christine

If the pope, preachers, rabbis, and imams/clerics would address the flaws in their religions, the hatred amongst the religions would cease and the Joshs of the world would not have to experience said hate.

To wit:

" Apparently the only "proof" that David even existed other than the highly fictionalized OT, is one piece of broken pottery with some inscriptions with a variety of translations of said inscriptions.

The "powerfull" biblical King David should have left much archeological evidence/proof but none has been found. e.g. jewels, weapons, homes, grave, religious artifacts, non-Jewish attestations.

And what is really odd is for the scripture writers to show that Jesus came from the family of David. This however would require that Joseph was the father of Jesus. So which is it? Joseph was the father or the holy ghost did the deed? If it were the hg, then Jesus was not a descendent of David. "

“Why this association was important in first century Palestine was addressed by "Stories circulated to the effect that Alexander of Macedonia was not only the son of Philip II, but also of the god Zeus-Ammon (Plutarch, Parallel Lives, "Alexander" 2.1-3.2); Plato was the son of Ariston and the god Apollo (Diogenes Laertius, Lives of Eminent Philosophers 3.1-2), and Augustus was the son of Octavius as well as the god Apollo (Suetonius, Lives o f the Caesars 2.4.1-7). The extraordinary character of these elites reputedly stemmed from both their divine origins and their kingroups. Their kin-groups provided one form of legitimation-political right to the throne and/or social status (thus the importance of Joseph in Matthew's genealogy). Their divine procreation provided another: their honor was divinely ascribed, and their greatness as leaders derived from divine paternity."

From: K.C. Hanson and D. E. Oakman, Palestine in the Time of Jesus, Fortress Press, 1998. p.55”

See also: faithfutures.org/index.php/368_Genealogy_of_Jesus

More flaws:

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was either the embellishment of the lives of three different men or a mythical character as was Moses, the "Tablet-Man" who talked to burning bushes and made much magic in Egypt.

1.5 million Conservative Jews and their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT.
simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

2. Jesus, the illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter/simple preacher man possibly suffering from hallucinations, has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics. earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

For added "pizzazz", Catholic/Christian theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "filicider".

3. Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingie thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

4. Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab who also had embellishing/ hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the assassination of Bhutto, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.

And who funds these acts of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

Hi Christine,

Thank you very much for your post. I'm very, very sorry about your sister.

Josh

Josh,

I am a Catholic Christian, and I want you to know that we aren't all like that. We really aren't. What happened to your nephew, what the others have said they've experienced makes me heartsick.

The Catholic church is desperately in need of reform, not just in the US, but worldwide, and Protestants need to face a few facts, as well. My own priest is the most decent man I have ever met. After my parochial school education, I left the church for ten years, and never would have returned since, frankly, I percieved it as hate filled, fear-inspiring, and, in many ways, it was, and still is.

My sister had told me about the church I now attend, and Fr. Joe, but I wasn't interested. I never would have gone back, except that she was mudered, and that was how I got to meet Fr. Joe. Our crimes against the Jewish people are continually brought home to us in his Church, in ways that would surely get him sanctioned if more people knew about what he says, how he conducts masses, etc.

There are Catholics out there who are repelled by this racism, sickened by it. I'm printing this thread out and bringing it with me to Bible study. Yes, we have Bible study.

We have a long way to go, Josh, a long, long way, us Catholics, and Benedict won't get us there, nowhere near it. Like Fr. Joe says, we don't need a Vatican. It holds us back.

I'm sorry, Josh. May God keep and protect you and your family.

Liora:

I read both your post on this thread and on Rabbi Kula's. You said nothing wrong on either one. Thank you for researching Flannery O'Connor's Catholicism and trying to teach it to your students.

Mary Cunningham is a bigoted old church lady, terrified of Muslims, who probably wears sensible shoes to compensate for her insensibility.

Serena:

You are right. New Yorkers don't need to pay anything for this Pope's trip. They shouldn't have to. He's not fit to lead a head of cattle.

Thank you for your concern and good wishes, everyone. They mean a great deal to me. Ari is okay now, thank God.

The incident occurred about about two months ago, just short of Ari's eighth birthday. Dan and Yael, my brother and his wife, send him to a Hebrew school which is across the street from a gigantic church that takes up an entire city block (all four corners). The tiny synagogue, which is across the street houses the school. It's almost allegorical.

At any rate, Ari and three other boys were always walked home by a teenage girl, simply because they are little boys, and one doesn't let little boys walk home by themselves in the five boroughs.
I don't know how or why a group of Catholic school kids from the giantic church, kids about twelve or thirteen started harassing them, just verbal abuse, then a little pushing. We later learned that the girl told the teacher, who told the rabbi, who told the priest, who told the principal.

The upshot? Nada. They started taking a different route home, but the thugs followed them. The whole cycle with the rabbi began again, but this time the rabbi called the boys' parents, as well. Dan and Yael intervened with the principal, but, again, nada, and they also took more protective measures. In the meantime, all of this was kept from Ari's older brother, easily kept, since between Stuyvesant, Karate classes, and Karate competitions, he's always out.

It wasn't that they were afraid that Ad would use his potentially lethal hands against the thugs--I don't know what they feared--but it turned out that keeping it from him had been a mistake, since I believe Ad thinks he could have protected Ari from what later happened if he had known about the problem earlier.

Also, Dan and Yael couldn't do with Ari what they had done with Ad, give him karate classes, that is, because Ari had been a sickly child. Thank God, it seems that he will be all right, but it will be at least another year before we can be reasonably certain. Throughout all his hospitalizations, he's been such a trooper, such a champ. Ad is fiercely devoted to him. Maybe, that's why his parents didn't tell him. I don't know.

At any rate, one day, I guess the thugs had too much holy water, and they attacked, hurting the girl, Ari, and one of the other boys before two passing pedestrians, good samaritans, stopped them. Ari, the girl, and the other boy were brought to the emergency room, the others released after a few hours.

Ari had to be kept for thirty-six hours because, due to his pre-existing health problems, he suffered more serious injuries. He was unconscious when they brought him in. At the time, Ad was at a karate competition for which I am also grateful to God, atheist that I am. At all events, after this, there was no way to keep the whole hateful business from him, since the consequences of Ari's last encounter were visible.

Ad changed after that, and he hasn't yet come back to himself. Maybe Sivan is right. Maybe you can't be a Jew, even a Jewish atheist, in the Diaspora. The police were called in that last time, and, to make a long story short, the thugs were disciplined, albeit not much. Not enough for Ad, certainly, who quietly took matters into his own hands.

He sought out four twelve-year-olds with a year of karate training to even the score. The score was evened a couple of weeks later, with none of us even knowing what Ad had been up to, nor will we ever know the details, since he will not say how he managed it. I'll omit the rest of it, except to say, that along with the girl, two other students from Ad's karate school now walk the boys home.

Ari is physically recovered, but he doesn't understand the hatred. Ad hovers around him when he's home, hangs out less with his friends to be around him, but he doesn't say much to anyone else, yours truly, included. We've all tried to talk to him, and we've apologized, but so far, we haven't gotten anywhere.

At any rate, that's about it, except that Dan is my older brother, older by two years, an agnostic or closet atheist, and I guess I always looked up to him. He's brilliant, had been a star athlete in high school and college, more low key than I, with a great sense of humor. Now, he doesn't joke much, and I can't do anything.

I'm going to cut and paste your messages, and give them to Dan and Yael.

Thank you, my friends.

Josh

Josh,

I can only echo what has already been said. These incidents leave us all so paralyzed, so wordless.

Like your brother with Adam, I enrolled my daughter in self-defense classes, not judo or Karate, at first, just self-defense, when she was six. Nothing had happened yet. We are Israeli, and, you may not know this, but Israelis are only now waking up to some hard truths about this country because the government has kept so much from them, just as the media keeps so much about what happens in Israel from Americans.

At any rate, Ronit is now eleven, and quite proficient at karate, but nowhere near a brown belt like your nephew, Adam. She also has developed the appropriate language with which to defend herself against Christian people. Thank God, she has never been hurt, but she has had two physical fights, neither of which my husband nor I were happy about.

We came here because Ronit is a musical prodigy, and although we have no shortage of spectacular teachers in Israel, more than here, in fact, given a number of factors, her teachers advised that she study with one man, who happened to live in New York City.

We are returning in June. I cannot take it here anymore, and I don't want Ronit to grow up in this hate-filled atmosphere. Her teacher keeps begging us to stay, but we cannot do it, not to her, not to ourselves. She is anxious to go home, and so are we.

Josh, I don't know if you are familiar with the controversy that developed when A.B. Yehoshua said that the phrase Diasporic Jews is oxymoronic. He's always said it, but I guess this time within earshot of the wrong people.

But, he was right. They kill your soul, even here, Josh.

We are not religious people, my husband and I, but I will pray for you and for your family. May God keep them safe. May God protect and keep all of you safe.

Sivan

To repeat:

Spiderman2 aka Protestant Bible Thumper, Fortune Teller and Severely Brainwashed in that Old Time Religion,

Fools are those who have read only the bible. God cannot be proud of such lazy creations!!!!
To reiterate:

What "voodooer of the hoodoo" blessed you with such stupidity in the field of fortune telling and interpretations of said stupidity???

The reality of it all is that all "pew sitters" and "bowers" are coming to grips with the flaws in their religions and in ten years the religions of today will be unrecognizable or extinct as the "pretty and ugly wingie flying thingies" are finally buried in the piles of utter stupidity.

And some added reality:

Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingie thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

I thought Rabbi Irwin Kula made sense on this question.

Catholicism is the Devil's Church. It is wise and cunning. You may hate me for saying that but I believe that the Vatican is the seat of Satan from the start upto now.

Whenever the Vatican speaks or any of their high priests, take it with suspicion. It is WISE AND VERY CUNNING.

If you study their history, their downfall was caused when the Bible was distributed to the masses.

Soon, it will display it's true color and it will lead to it's devastation.

Josh,

My God, Josh! I don't know what to say about your nephew--How is he now? What about your brother and sister-in-law? How are they? When did this happen?

Josh, I know this is of little comfort, but Liora is right. We have all had such experiences in childhood, and they continue into adulthood, up until death. Here I am a darkly complected black woman, and since girlhood, I have faced more verbal and physical abuse for my Jewish identity than for my black. The little one must be taught the vocabulary of defense from the Christians.

I'm so sorry, Josh. I'm probably rambling.

Josh, please tell your family, people care about them, about what happened to them.

Serena

Jay, Jay, Jay,

You suggested that Mecca be turned into another Disney World after the collapse of Islam? I must of missed that suggestion. When and where did you make this proposal?? I have suggested the idea to Obfuscating Jihadist a few times recently on some other threads. Maybe we can both invest in the project. The heat in Mecca might be a major problem.

Hi Josh,

I am so very sorry about your nephew.
One is always at such a loss for words when these incidents occur. Although I doubt there are very many American Jews who have not experienced Christian antisemitic violence in childhood, one is still so saddened to hear of yet another small victim.

I do wish to God I had something wise or consoling to say.

I'm so sorry.

Liora

Why shouldn’t the Pope baptize anyone who wishes to convert? What right do Muslims have to be offended? Christians in the past have converted to Islam. Should Catholics be offended by that move? Both Islam and Christianity are proselytizing religions and as such, will accept those who wish to convert. For Islam to hold Catholicism to a different standard than Islam maintains in that respect is hypocritical.

The difference between the Pope’s moral and responsible approach and the prominent Islamic approach is that the Pope allowed a man to choose freely his beliefs after being persuaded. According to prevalent readings of Sharia in much of the world, that convert to Catholicism should be executed. The issue is not that the Pope highlights differences in the two faiths and discusses them, welcoming in those he and his Church persuade through that discussion, but that much of the Islamic world sets aside discussion in favor of the scimitar, gun, or bomb. The Pope used reason and persuasion within a context of free will, whereas much of Islam uses force.

At the same time, it is also true that the individuals of different faiths are not in direct contradiction to each other as human beings. This Pope and the Pope before him have gone out of their way to point out the common ground between Catholics and Muslims; the common humanity of all human beings, whether Catholic, Muslim, atheist, or Hindu; and most importantly, the common duty to love fellow men and women, whatever their beliefs. Both have held to the official Catholic position that, “The Church reproves, as foreign to the mind of Christ, any discrimination against men or harassment of them because of their race, color, condition of life, or religion.” (Nosra Aetate, 5). The Catholic Church has taken the far more "liberal" position – the position of freedom and Socratic dialogue – and in doing so built the bridge half way. (More bridges might be completed if prominent Imams and Ayatollahs proclaim vocally similar positions.)

Common humanity and love do not preclude a real, Socratic dialogue. Instead, they require it. Real dialogue respects differences, highlights differences, and reasons through them. This is exactly the type of scholarly approach that Benedict has taken and he owes no apologies.

Hi Josh,

I am so terribly, terribly sorry about your little nephew. When we first came to this country, we naively thought we were through with antisemitic racist violence. Only a few months later, some Christians did something to my then sixteen-year-old sister that I can't talk about.

I don't know what has so hardened the hearts of the Christians, what has so blinded them, what has made them so violent.

I am so sorry, Josh. That poor little boy.

Farnaz

The main problem with Roman Catholicism, and with most other sects of Christianity, is an antiquated and confused view on human sexuality.

Much of basic Christian teaching is now in sharp conflict with ordinary common-sense.

Josh,

I am sorry about your nephew. I don't know what to say. Ganging up on small children is an all-to-common practice among those who profess the religion of love.

That Yael is a cartoonist must be more than serendipity. I speak as a fellow nonobservant.

I humbly await your news from Yael.

Jay

Well-

Wapo wanted more control over the posters. Every thinking man has departed.

Look who's left posting and reading.

Jay,

What can I say? You're more than brilliant. You are a genius.

However, to be realistic, we must acknowledge that the Disney project will never come off. The comic book is another matter. Guess whose sister-in-law is a successful graphic novelist?

Now, I don't think she'd consider doing anything
on the scale of a comic book, but she'd certainly consider doing something. My eight-year-old nephew was assaulted by Catholic thugs on his way home from Hebrew school. They were older and bigger than he was. Yael and my brother went to see the principle of the Catholic school out of which the thugs crawled. Guess what came out of it? Nada.

Guess who was later informed of said incident? My nephew's teenage brown-belt brother. The rest is history, very unpleasant history for the thugs, who, would not let up on the Hebrew school children day after day.

But, Dan, my brother, and Yael have not recovered from any part of this episode. My little nephew doesn't understand it. Unfortunately, Adam, the older one does.

I'll get back to you on our more modest project, after I speak to Yael. And you are a genius, Jay. I'm honored to be corresponding with you.

Josh

I'll get back to you on the cartoon business. And you are a visionary, Jay.

Josh

Let's review:

Mary Cunningham, reacting to Liora's anti-Catholicism:

"Liora writes: 'the mayor's robbing the city blind for this old bigot [Pope Benedict]...given the Catholics and what they've done and continue to do to us'...Are your Catholic students aware of your visceral anti-Catholicism? If you are so angry at Catholics, why do you teach them?"

Liora, insinuating that Mary Cunningham is anti-semitic because of things she *didn't* say:

"Funny thing, Mary Cunningham, there are so many anti-semitic postings on this blog, and yet, I've never seen your Christian self posting in protest...Funny thing"

Serena, (this post speaks for itself):

"Mary Cunningham: That is Rabbi Kula, not Kula. Get it, Catholic?"

Me, an equal opportunity offender:

"Serena, Boy, do you seeth with toxic bile! Get it, JEW?"

Serena (who's THEY?) (and what's she even talking about?):

"Did you notice that Mary Cunningham wrote 'That will be all from me'? That's how they do."

Josh, joining the fray with well-deserved insults:

"how goes the corpse worshipping these days? Do you still carry it around nailed to a stick?...Get it, CATHOLIC?"

Me again, hitting the nerve!:

"Well, all I can say is keep up the tribal inbreeding, it certainly seems to be working, SUBHUMAN!"

Daniel in the Lion's Den, the only really decent one here:

"Surely you must have something better to do."

Liora (now it's an out-and-out free-for-all):

Pre-Neanderthal...we see what you really are... Vermin... racist, Cockroach"

So that's it. Well, at least it was fun.

i am really disgusted by the ugliness passing for dialogue here-

Liora,

Sorry I didn't cite you, pace Jay, viz "the missing link." I wrote in the heat of the moment.

S

Jay,

You and Josh are truly inspired. Good luck with your project.

S

Sorry but to me that post looked more like the usual arbitrary swipe at the Catholic Church. Believe me I'm not exactly fond of the Catholic Church myself to put it mildly but frankly I think everyone is just making and awful lot out of this and likely more than is necessary.

I think you give Benedict far too much credit. In my mind this one done solely because the man baptized had sufficient stature (and that notion in and of itself irritates my libertarian sole more than you can imagine) to rate being baptize by the Bishop in any Catholic area on Earth and as I said The Pope is the Bishop of Rome.

Serena says:
“Why are my tax dollars, which could be used for so many other things.”
This is a perfect example of crocodile tears. You are talking about the expense for the security of the spiritual leader of over a billion people, but not the 4 billion dollars that are dumped on to Israel every year for the past 60 years to enable it maintain a predatory grip on the people of the lands they are occupying. Think about that. If you want a good reason to cry here it is.

Far from Serene,

You are as Jewish as I am Wiggan, and I mean no disrespect to Wiggans.

What you obviously are is the Missling Link, or to be more precise, the Missing Christian Link.
If you were following the posts as you say, then you would have seen Mary Cunningham's bigotry, which I might add is not new.

Also, you would not have used the langauge you did. The fact is you are running away because you would never have won in this, as Liora notes, not only because you lack her intelligence, but because you are so wrong and she is so right.

There is no excuse for the continued existence of Passion Plays, the placards, the assaults on Jewish students in the schools, etc. None.

No doubt you started life with limited intelligence and the church filled up the missing grey matter with hatred.

Far from Serene:

I wish I could say, nice try, but it isn't. You are so obviously the missing link.

Happy hating.

CCNL,

Kindly cite me, when referring to my Disney vision, and note where we depart.

Josh,

First off, your ideas about PopeMobile rides is inspired. Second, what about a comic book filled with the pontiff's adventures in the Hitler youth?

What do you think?

Jay

Daniel,

If you review my posts you'll see that all I've been doing is following like with like - an eye for an eye, if you will. The original bile came from Serena's disparagement of Mary Cunningham, and her absurd idea that the blog software somehow knew she was Jewish and was preferentially censoring her for that reason. How absurd! Seeing how delighted she is to perceive anti-semitism, I thought I'd oblige, but never going beyond her example. Since her particular pathology is not unusual, a pigpile ensued.

By the way, I'm Jewish and I couldn't care less about the Pope.

Happy Pesach everybody! Even you three knuckleheads, Serena, Josh and Liora.

A reminder based on recent comments about visiting dignitaries like the pope:

Just as Christianity is self-destructing from the weight of its flaws and errors to include physical resurrections, holy ghosts, "voodooing the hoodoo" aka "miracles", and papal fallibility, Islam will analogously self-destruct as noted below:

Islam's reliance on "pretty wingie thingies" and "demons of the demented" for authenication is coming to a fast close. As it does, Mecca will no longer be a shrine to these fictional characters and will simply become a historical tourist attraction. Maybe Disney will construct another Disney World there featuring roller coaster-chariot rides to the fictional heavens, a water park at the Grand Mosque along with a Hall of Religious Embellished Characters featuring talking figures of Abraham, Jesus and Mohammed and his eleven wives.

A reminder based on recent comments about visiting dignitaries like the pope:

Just as Christianity is self-destructing from the weight of its flaws and errors to include physical resurrections, holy ghosts, "voodooing the hoodoo" aka "miracles", and papal lack of contact with heaven, Islam will analogously self-destruct as noted below:

Islam's reliance on "pretty wingie thingies" and "demons of the demented" for authenication is coming to a fast close. As it does, Mecca will no longer be a shrine to these fictional characters and will simply become a historical tourist attraction. Maybe Disney will construct another Disney World there featuring roller coaster-chariot rides to the fictional heavens, a water park at the Grand Mosque along with a Hall of Religious Embellished Characters featuring talking figures of Abraham, Jesus and Mohammed and his eleven wives.

Hmmm, Mohammed's figure would be saying something like:

"I was an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, who had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" aka "pretty wingie thingies" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

Far From Serene:

Now, now, Pre-Neanderthal, we see what you really are, and it took so very little, did it not, Vermin?

You didn't answer Josh's question. New York needs money, and I mean, badly. We have children reading xeroxes instead of books, as has been noted, since we can't afford the texts, pace Serena. We have people living in the streets. We have people dying because they can't get health insurance, and you know what, heaven help them if they do, given the state of our hospitals.

Now racist, Cockroach, will you be sending any Pope money to pay for Bennie's trip?

Poor persecuted thing. I feel for you, I really do, what with your racist, imperialist, hate-filled religion of love, pace Serena.

I am moved, deeply moved, as I attend Passion Plays, where your tribesmen dress up like Jews, and yell, "Kill him!, Kill him!" (sic).

Deeply moved, as they carry grotesque images of Jews in their pagents. This is 2008, and it is all such a lovely thing to see from the religion of love.

Deeply moved, as they throw pennies at Jewish students in the high schools.

Oh, pond scum, go away. You won't win in this, and it has only just begun.

Far from Serene

Surely you must have something better to do.

Josh,

So I guess you're a rageaholic bigot too, just like Serena. That's great! I see you hate Catholics. Brilliant! Well, all I can say is keep up the tribal inbreeding, it certainly seems to be working, SUBHUMAN!

Far from Serene:

What's up? Can't post what I'd like to, so I'll simply ask, how goes the corpse worshipping these days? Do you still carry it around nailed to a stick?

You sending any Pope money to pay for Bennie's trip?

Get it, CATHOLIC?

Far from Serene:

This is a test, CATHOLIC.

Liora:

Did you notice that Mary Cunningham wrote "That will be all from me"?

That's how they do.

S

Serena,

Boy, do you seeth with toxic bile! Get it, JEW?

Oh yeah - nevermind that everyone here is affected by the clumsy blog filter, when it happens to you, you know its because you're Jewish. It's flagrantly anti-Semetic.

In fact, it reminds you of the Holocaust.

Doesn't everything?

Mary Cunningham:

That is Rabbi Kula, not Kula. Get it, Catholic?
Oh and Mary Cunningham, did you read what I wrote here, what? Are you going to help foot the bill for this man's trip?

Hi Liora,

What's up with his blog? Why aren't Jews allowed to speak? No lengthy replies, no "bad words," and we still can't speak. Doesn't all this seem familiar?

So, you, too, are an academic! I wrote you just after I had finished grading what are amusingly called "freshman" essays. You teach English, I would imagine. I fear for the future of the English language in this country. I truly do.

On Sunday, I'm dragging my black Jewish self down to a meeting--Mizrahi, Ethiopian, Askenazim, Sfardim, et al. I'd really like to give you the address, but obviously I can't.

At any rate, best advice I've gotten so far: bombard the Times with letters. I did call as you all suggested, also emailed the mayor.

S

I do. Judging by the animosity I've seen in the WaPo columns, I fear for the Pope's safety.
And if only Benedict would come to London, we would just be so very, very happy. He would probably be safer too.

There are rumours about a trip to Belfast--not very safe for a Catholic--but so far, that's all they are: rumours.

Must go.

"he was merely pontificating as only the Pope can"

That's why he's called the "Pontiff". ;)

Seriously, the Pope deserves respect as a Head of State. And, I firmly believe in the "Law of Three" when it comes to helping out tourists in DC and on the Metro (because my karma was repaid three-fold when I visited London). It's the price one pays for living in the DC area. It's just that I dread the whole circus associated with the Pope's visit. I think I've lived in the DC area too long - I've gotten cynical about all of the foreign dignitaries that come to visit.

PS

I know my post sounds limited. But to a Catholic the approach to Christ is *through* the Mass and the sacraments. Catholics believe in the presence of Christ during the Mass (it's called the real presence). Strike at that and you strike at the core of our faith. I did criticize a pope, not because I personally disliked him, quite the contrary, but because John Paul II's approach emphasized the ecumenical at the expence of the authentically Catholic.

But so long as the Mass stayed recognizable and some traditional liturgies remained (it was just hard to find) I remained faithful.

I hope this answers your questions.

That will be all from me.

May Cunningham:

If I recall accurately, you post from England. Am I correct?

Mary Cunningham:

I have tried to respond to you, but my posts are being blocked, just as Serena's were on Rabbi Kula's post. And all I did was write a factual response to your post. Interesting, no?

Funny thing, Mary Cunningham, there are so many anti-semitic postings on this blog, and yet, I've never seen your Christian self posting in protest, although I have seen your posts opposing Deb Chatterjee.

Funny thing. . . .

Daniel,

I judge Benedict by his actions, not by any personal viewpoint because I don't know him at all.

His actions so far have been fine. His writings have been very good indeed. But I would criticize him, for example, if he reinstated guitar playing at Mass, or, say, debased the liturgy.

For Mary Cunningham

If somone does not like the Pope, that does not mean that he does not like Catholics.

I am not a fan of this Pope, but I practice self-censorship; yet I have noticed that it mostly the Catholics who really don't seem to like him.

So, I would like to ask you, as a Catholic, what would you do if you did not personally like the Pope? Would be wrong to voice it? And even if you kept quiet, would it be wrong to feel that way? And what would you do to make yourself like someone, whom you do not like?

I guess that also goes to questions about how to love your neighbor, and all that other Christian stuff, that seems pretty hard to do.

Liora writes:

" the mayor's robbing the city blind for this old bigot [Pope Benedict]...

given the Catholics and what they've done and continue to do to us...."

You wrote in the Kula column that you were a teacher with half Catholic and half Lutheran students.

Are your Catholic students aware of your visceral anti-Catholicism? If you are so angry at Catholics, why do you teach them? Continue to associate with them? Does your college know about your enmity towards Catholics? And do the parents of your Catholic students know of the contempt in which you hold their faith?

Or do you just post your prejudice at the Post?

This is no longer a functional blog - their strategies to intercept controversial postings seems to have run amuck - way too much trouble
for this poster.

Wow!

"Freedom of Speech Might Lead to Freedom of Belief.."

That's a scary thought-

to some people..

Mo, Mo, Mo,

And you met with the god of Islam when to verify your ramblings about the mythical original sin and the mythical sinners of said sin?

Has BENEDICT done enough to build bridges to Islam?

What about vice versa?

http://www.memritv.

org/clip/en/1734.htm

Garyd,

Poster were allowed to include two links per post. Almost every forum on the internet encourages the sharing of information by allowing posters to place links in their posts.

-Now WAPO no longer allows any links in a post on this "forum".

The only spamming I saw here was on dead threads. Spamming is easy to address without restricting information.

If you have ever viewed any of the links previously posted- that should tell you what type of information they are trying to stop from being shared.

I've been trying to post the full reply without success - I had to cut the last response in half to get it through, and now can't get that last and shorter part posted.

GARYD,

My statement was far from trite if you don't mind. I'm no fan of either the Pope or the Vatican - or it's political agenda. Having been thoroughly born, bred and raised as a Catholic, including Catholic grade school, altar boy status, etc. I lost faith in this entire operation at the age of 17 - and haven't been back (at least as a believer). I do know the theology however.

The truth is, I far preferred the 'mystery' of the Latin mass, music such in Latin at High Mass, and all the good old fashioned stuff pre-John XXIII - although he was by far the best of the lot among modern Popes. On the other hand, I haven't switched to the Eastern Rite, as many ultra-conservative old-fashioned Catholics have done - Christianity in all it's various forms is not my cup of tea.

Having studied religions for several decades, I see Buddhism as having the most fundamentally compatible view of our current understanding of manifest reality as it comports with contemporary scientific thinking at the deep levels of quantum mechanics and cosmology. And of course, there are conflicting theories even here - but that's science for you. In religious metaphysics, there is no conflict of this sort - and that's a problem.

I have to give the Dalai Lama credit as the high profile spokesperson for Buddhism that he
is. If the tenets of Buddhism are found to conflict with the findings of science, then Buddhism needs to reform itself in keeping with the findings of science. That's his philosophical view, and he is quite expert in esoteric matters as regards Buddhism, I can assure you.

Religions that find themselves seriously at odds with science are destined to be cast off like yesterday's clothes as time unfolds, unless theology and religious metaphysics in general reforms itself.

original inocence vs original sin.

life ,death and survival of the species is absolutly in the hands of the creator god who created every mankind.

adam and eve when descanded on the planet earth they were equiped with inocenceity and repentancity of the creator god and the rationaity to know what is right and what is wrong.

1-every mankind is the creation of the creator god, those who doubt this let them afford their own universe?!

2-every mankind born inocence until commit a sin if he or she commit a sin ,he or she can always repent to the creator god the repentance sole bestower and giver,mankind doesnot need any body to be nailed or crucified on the cross for the sin and saftey and integration of mankind.

3-mankind every where inhereted from adam and eve the original inocence not the original sin ,every new child is inocence until his/her father and mother raise him/her to be other than the nature and the soul that the creator god made ,every mankind is the creation of the creator god and every mankind is equal under the creator god and every mankind should adhere to the guidance of the creator god.

4-this life is about truth vs falsehood ,this life also about the none compulsion in religion ,this life is about the free choice and this life also about crime and punishment ,this life is full of delusions and illusions ,this life is no joke .this life is not based on pure love nor pure reason,this life based on rules and fundemental that never change for no body ,this life is based on the way the creator god made it and the way the creator god purposed it.

Has this blog become infested with some sort of random number generator that kicks out posts at random regardless of content or what? I will post two or three things even occasionally 4 or 5 and then all of a sudden the least inflammatory of posts gets sent to the blog owner

Jihadist you and I aren't at war as far as I know, Osama is at war with both of us.

The 'or not' I posted in response to Perspectives rather trite statement. Was intended to mean that I didn't think there was any hubris to it either. The Pope is also the Bishop of Rome and the one being baptized is of sufficient stature to merit being baptized by the pope and not just because he was a Muslim at one point in his life. And frankly for my money he is every bit as lost now as he was before.

Islam should be left.Because;

1-Islam is Hate and racist cult.
-Islam hates from non-muslims.8.12 and 1.161(such as many others)
-Yellow race peoples(chineses,japaneses,koreans etc) are Gog and Mogog 18.94
-Jewish people cursed by islam 5.13
-Trinity also cursed by islam 5.73
-Hindus are mocked by many muslims as *worshippers to Cow*

2-Islam is misogynist cult.Woman is the second class and half creature.The woman is slave in islam and headscarf(black wrap,chador,burga etc) is the mark enslavement and subjugation.*It is my choice* is the second biggist lie in the universe.The women wear/put on the headscarf besause of fear and oppression(dad,brother,husband or social press)

3-Islam is Poverty.One who worships five times in a day can not produce anything,except terror.If there was no oil incomes in Gulf countries and Iran,they would starve.Islam is Idleness.Muslim man plays his his own sexual organ from morning to night.

4-Islam is Backwardness.Islam rejects Contemporary Values,Democracy,Human Rights and Rationality.Justice in islam means Shariah which refuses the Freedom 33.36

5-Islam is Ungratefulness.There is no *to thank* in islam dictionary.

Yes,islam ought to be left.
Yes,you shall run away from islam,but catholicism is the wrong preference.What is the correct path...Perhaps,I may write after the closing bell.
After the GE(General Electric) 1Q balance(44 cents per share,estimate 51 cents),the stocks tumble.

By your permission,I will watch the stocks(to me,another volatile session for Wall Street possible.Law,play as much as your money,dont use credit)

Pope Benedict was appointed to his "office" just about three years ago. Surely he is not expected to have completed building bridges to Islam within that time? Surely building bridges to Islam is not his urgent priority as a new Pope? Do give him time! He has already responded positively to the request of Muslim Imams and will do whatever is in his power to encourage dialogue. Let us not forget that he carries the burden of innocent Christians being killed by extremist Muslims as over-reaction to his using a quote in passing during a university lecture; and now this sense of outrage by many Muslims about baptizing an ex-Muslim publicly during Easter.

When Christians convert to Islam, Christians treat it like a non-event. They are disappointed yes, and may try hard to convince the person to reconsider their move, but no more.

Let us hear more and more about Muslims eager to build bridges to Christianity and Judaism.

Oh there "Reality Challenged" and Obfuscating Jihadist,

A reminder based on recent comments about visiting dignitaries like the pope:

Just as Christianity is self-destructing from the weight of its flaws and errors to include physical resurrections, holy ghosts, "voodooing the hoodoo" aka "miracles", and papal fallibility, Islam will analogously self-destruct as noted below:

Islam's reliance on "pretty wingie thingies" and "demons of the demented" for authenication is coming to a fast close. As it does, Mecca will no longer be a shrine to these fictional characters and will simply become a historical tourist attraction. Maybe Disney will construct another Disney World there featuring roller coaster-chariot rides to the fictional heavens, a water park at the Grand Mosque along with a Hall of Religious Embellished Characters featuring talking figures of Abraham, Jesus and Mohammed and his eleven wives.

Hmmm, Mohammed's figure would be saying something like:

"I was an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, who had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" aka "pretty wingie thingies" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers. "

Hi Liora,

I've been trying for half an hour to post to you, and say how happy I was to read your post, as well as Jay's and Josh's.

The thing is despite the fact that my original post, which I would like you to read is being held. It is neither lenghy nor offensive, not by far, when you compare it to the racist things people write about us.

Funny, you know, I heard Quinn talking about the anti-semitism on this blog. That is Sally Quinn, the one who wants to know what Arun Ghandi has learned. Well, it's been three months now. . . .

I'll try again, tomorrow, to post what I wanted to say to you

Liora,

This is a test.

Hi Liora,

I'm being blocked. Will try to post to you tomorrow.

Serena

Serena,

I called the hotline, too, like Josh. That the mayor's robbing the city blind for this old bigot is one thing, but given the Catholics and what they've done and continue to do to us, why, am I, a lowly academic, paying for this man's trip?

Does this man contribute to the care for Catholic holy sites in Israel, which Jews die protecting from Muslims?

That is, Jews, Serena. The ones we read about in the old bugger's New (sic) Testament. If the church was able to raise millions of dollars to pay off the parents of child molesters when this Christian government wouldn't indict the priests, anyway, why can't they send a few bucks to Israel? Huh?

And a few Catholics to stand guard at their sites. Israel's economy is deteriorating. The bigoted Vatican is the wealthiest nation in the world. There are a whole lot of them, and thanks to them, very few of us.

This is really a disgusting insult.

Liora

Josh,

Thank you. I am humbled.

Jay

Jay : "Isn't there some single place the pope could go and stay, one appropriate to his position and appearance, say, Disneyland?"

I would love to see the Pope make a visit to the beautiful Mormon Temple just off the Beltway in Washington DC.

All the same, the Pope, as Head of State of a sovereign nation, the Vatican, with a seat in the United Nations, and Holy Sees around the world (diplomatic offices), deserve to be treated as such. Just as Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, Head of State and Head of the Church of England, was accorded when she visited the United States last year.

Thanks, best regards and a good weekend to all.

"J"

Jay, you are brilliant. Where better place than the ultimate simulacrum?

Also, like Serena, I live in New York. We don't have money to throw away on Christian carnivals. Disneyland is the place for Bennie. The Disney Corporation could easily foot the bill with the money they rake in during his stay. In fact, the tickets they sell for PopeMobile rides, alone, would guarantee a profit.

BTW, Serena, I called the hotline to complain and learned that many others had done the same for the same reasons you gave.

Isn't there some single place the pope could go and stay, one appropriate to his position and appearance, say, Disneyland?

Oh there "Reality Challenged" and Obfuscating Jihadist,

You don't need a Christian or Papal baptism since it has no meaning as there is and was no original sin.

You do however need to be bathed in a flawless Islam, one where all the hate for Shiites (or Sunnis) is removed. Where the hallucinations and warmongering of the mad Arab are removed. Where rights of women are upheld. And where freedom to choose one's religion or no religion are considered basic human rights.

When the pope comes to New York, he will have unprecedented security, streets will be closed off, and Manhattan, where I work, will be a nightmare.

There will be snipers on the rooftops, helicopters, police, etc.

There are homeless people in this city, schools that do not have books to give to students, and so, instead, give xeroxes. The hospitals are a nightmare.

Where's the money, honey? Let the Vatican or the Catholics foot the bill.

..top that, Allam! :)

Baptism in itself isn't a bad thing, as long it actually is baptism, and not just a sequence of actions involving water. Me, I got 'baptized' by a gypsy, on the street, who stopped me and insisted that God had met us, and that I should definitely go along with what she had in mind. Not for free, but that's how gypsies are... actually it's not for free in churches either, now that I think of it.
In fact, to her it was very much "magic" but it was actually immediately recognizable as baptism, not only because it involved "water on forehead", but also because it was a genuine spiritual encounter - an encounter that was actually the product of the spirit; it was all very coinciding in many ways (given some specific circumstances at the time), not that she preached or anything of the sort.
Basically, when I look back at it, it was either establishing a small conscious connection to the spirit that subsequently grew, or a sign of a small conscious connection being established.
But I also suppose that this sign or event took this form because it was recognizable by me for what it was (i.e. within my cultural context), it is possible it might take different forms and still be the same thing (I can't really know).

Wow, didn't the Church baptize the Aztecs, Mayans, Incas, and American Indians. Aren't these groups the better for it now?

Athena, I am so with you on this.

Traffic, nothing but Pope stuff on TV, the media, streets shut off. For what?

To see some old bigot dressed up in gowns, jewelry, and headgear, the head of the Vatican, the wealthiest nation on earth?

Why am I being imposed upon by this?

Why are my tax dollars, which could be used for so many other things, going to protect and entertain this old guy?

What have he and his church have to do with me?

I have already, quite some time ago, asked David Waters if On Faith was going to get a new webmaster with some basic skills. Seems the have no plans on it.

Last week I lost several posts..they were tame also, one I had done a considerable research for...

You would think that two entities such as Washington Post and News Week could do betteras far as a site.

terra

Hello GaryD and Perspective,

Are we at war? One down and such? It is not Papal hubris. Only expressed ambition to save those who have not found "truth" and salvation in line with the creed of his church.

How does one apply to be baptised by the Pope himself? Is it at the invitation of the Vatican to those it deem will make special points?

Has any Pope ever baptised a former adherent of Eastern Orthodox Church, an Anglican, or a Baptist, or a Mormon, or a Quaker in the last or this century?

He or any of his priests won't be baptising me. I have other plans, other views, another belief.

--------------------------------------------------

Athena:)

Ouch! I'm a tourist to Washington DC too. All foreign visitors are. Not for the cherry blossoms actually. There is the Smithsonian and the monuments too.

Come now, be fair, when POTUS visits a foreign country, streets are blocked, security personnel are out in full force, and life as we know it have to be readjusted to fit the flying in and flying out, and visit schedules of POTUS here and there.

I love looking at the circling around or statically standing Secret Service fellows in their suits regardless of weather, with eye-shades and ear-pieces. It is a tourist attraction of its own.

It would be cool to see the Pope in a Popemobile would it not? The only one of its kind if he uses it when there.

Thanks and regards

"J"

For some reason- I am unable to post on Eboo Patel's thread.

Would some kind person post my comment and question for me?

"Eboo Patel:

I am pleased that you are open to the active American Christian community.

My question for you is:

Where do Muslims who believe all law is based on the Qur'an fit in Western Culture (Western Civilization)?"

Best wishes.

DITLD-

I think the webmaster is trying to deal with the posts from JJ; he's been downright nasty about Gays and Pagans in his latest posts. I think we're getting caught in the protocols they've put up to catch him. I've had two posts held, and I thought they were pretty tame. Time for WaPo to offer an internship to someone with some computer skills.

Is it just me, or is there something really wrong with this website software? It seems to be fighting back; it shouldn't be doing that, should it?

No, I take it back - he was merely pontificating as only the Pope can.....

Or not...

One Muslim down and 2 billion to go - was this an exercise in Papal hubris, or what???

Islam is the fastest growing religion because in spite of the Pope's stance on birth control Muslims have far and away the highest birth rate. Not because of large numbers of conversions.

There are fair numbers of Muslims in Europe not because of Conversions but due to immigration.

Oh there "Reality Challenged" and Obfuscating Jihadist,

The Catholic Church is losing members because of the flaws and errors in its foundations with the pope being one of the failing and rotting pillars.

Islam would suffer a similar fate if it were not for the threat of death or significant harm prescribed by your book of death for those who try to leave.

We assume you have secretly completed the Five Step Program for Deflawing Islam and you are now a Muslim in name only anxiously awaiting for the overthrow of the Sunni/Shiite clerics/imams who have for 1400 years kept Islamics chained to the hallucinations of an Arab madman. I am sure you will deny this as a means to protect yourself and your family.

As a former Catholic turned Wiccan, the only thing that I care about WRT the Pope coming to DC is how it's going to mess up traffic. Oh, and if the Nationals will win the NL East since the Pope is saying Mass in their new stadium. As for the rest, it's just another major annoyance, like the hordes of tourists that come for the Cherry Blossoms, and the seagull protesters (of anything) that fly in, make a lot of noise, drop their loads, then fly away - leaving us locals to clean up after them.

One never hear of the former Muslim baptised by the Pope until he made news as being baptised by the Pope during Easter. The former Muslim may be well-known in Italy, or Europe perhaps, but not in the wider Muslim world, who are more familiar with Pope Benedict 16.

The baptism process is quite photogenic and telegenic and, was perhaps, a nice gesture by the Spiritual Head of the Catholic church to inspire its priests and nuns all over the world to win more converts to the "true" faith.

The Catholic church is losing Catholic adherents in Latin America to other Christian, especially Protestant denominations. In Africa, it is likewise quite hard going for the church to win adherents with competition from American evangelical groups.

Baptism in the Vatican is a grand public affair, but conversion on the ground in Latin America, Africa and Asia-Pacific is messier.

The Christian churches are also striving to win Muslim converts in a particular geographical zone in Africa and Asia. Indonesia and Nigeria are "new frontiers" to win Muslims over to the "true" faith as espoused by the evangelicals and the Catholic church.

The Pope, in making a show of converting a former Muslim to Catholicism, is perhaps also not just making a point to Muslims in his own inimitable way, but also towards other churches who are striving to get converts for their churches.

It is apparent that winning converts depends not just on theology and stance on issues, but also on the social-economic needs of potential converts too - how much church members are expected to contribute to the churches and what they will get out of it.

Religion switching is quite a reality for the Catholic church. Among its flock in Latin America, some are switching to Protestant churches, especially in Brazil. This is a worrisome trend for the church apart from the frowned on "liberation theology" advocated among some Latin American Catholics by the Vatican.

Religion shopping among some African and Asian Christian is also reality. It can be surprising how intense the competition among Christian churches are even among themselves for adherents to their church even in Fiji as I found out during a visit. I was told even Benny Hinn was in Fiji a couple of years ago.

Even in Fiji with less than 500,000 Christians, we have everyone from Catholics to Methodists to Seven Day Adventists to Latter Day Saints to Harvest Church to Anglican Church to Korea Pacific Church operating and proselytising.

It may all too often be characterised by some as a conflict and competition between Christianity and Islam, but the competition between the Christian churches themselves are very intense - including startling vilifications of the Catholic Church by some adherents of other Christian denominations, and also on the origins of the Anglican Church/Church of England by some Catholics.

As to whether Pope Benedict has done enough to build bridges to Islam, it would seen he has burned some bridges build by his predecessor, Pope John Paul II. It remains to be seen how he respond to initiatives from other faith groups. There is a difference in what is said and what is actually done.

Perhaps we need to cut some slack on an unmarried male loaded in being called Infallible and his chosen name upon assuming leadership office preceded with His Holiness. He is, after all, human. Of course, one expect a designated spiritual leader representing over one billion people to show leadership by example, and as exemplary of the best of his faith group.

As for the recently baptised Catholic (by the Pope no less during Easter), he may be more comfortable with the church's beliefs and official stance everything from God, on Original Sin, on family planning, on abortion, on science etc. Hope he finds salvation and spiritual and peace in the belief of his choice.

Thanks and regards

"J"

Daniel in the Lion's Den,

Try reducing the text size (View menu) when text is missing from a panelist's comments.

No, it's not being censored: it seems to me that posting often, posting links, and short posts tend to outrage the spam karma of IP addresses.

Otherwise, I don't see how anyone might need water sprinkling to be able to read the bible, or any other book, or how anyone might stop anyone else from believing whatever they want.
And religious practice doesn't necessarily equate with sitting on the right side of god.

Something the pope must try. He should make another visit to Turkey. He must try to baptize some of them since most of them don't have a clear identity and are considered Moslem by name only. He must avoid dealing with 1.5 million crypto jews who run the country and work on the reset of the population.

I just made a discovery:

I tried to look at Susan Jacoby's essay, but only half of it appeared, and the rest was cut off. (Of course, the all the comments were inaccesible). So I copied the half that I could see and I pasted in a Word Perfect Document, and it was all there.

Very strange, I think.

Is this forum being censored?

Again, I do not think so. If there had been a policy change, I think they would have mentioned it.

But I had noticed alot of crank posts that used to get through aren't getting through anymore.

Yesterday, I had trouble just viewing comments. You know that can't be intentional. They probably have some process for screening comments that is not working right. Anyway, I agree, that they try to get a handle on this.

Dear Victoria -

Thanks for the note of support.

I have an idea: how about the blog owners shut the site down for a week or two, get some competent techies on the payroll and retool the thing until it WORKS? They could notify us all via e-mail blast once it was ready to be used again.

Any takers?

Pinky: Gee, Brain, what are we going to do tonight?

Brain: The same thing we do every night, Pinky - try to take over the world!

What will the Moslem world beneft from such a bridge?...........nothing!!

If he baptizes one Moslem, thousands will convert to Islam all over the world. Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world.

mine have been held all day mr mark- even the comment i posted the other day on the last question voicing support of you and expressing the wish that you dont leave- as you're a voice of reason in here-

well, we'll see if this goes through

...or, maybe...not??

Some people think if you silence voices- the meaning of their words will disappear..

My posts are being held again, this time, from work.

Daniel your last post is quite correct. It would e nice if the worlds most vehemently warlike religions would make nice and give the rest of us a break especially when one considers the fact that in practice they don't differ all that much.

Actually there was no need for Magdi Allam's Baptism since there is and was no original sin so the point is mute just like the Pope's Baptismal words were.

An update on current Catholic theology as taught in many Catholic university graduate classes:

"The story of Adam and Eve is only symbolic.
This story was composed in the 900s BCE and functions as an etiology (explanatory myth) . In the 900s Israel was self ruling, under King David
and Solomon. The people were no longer at war and the question" Why are we not happy?" may have been asked. The short answer is sin. (Look at 1 Kings 11 for some clues into why the story depicts Eve sinning first and then tempting Adam [Solomon]).

Original Sin therefore is only symbolic of the sins of our origins -- in our
families and in the broader society, both of which affect each person
profoundly. The "sins of our origins" approach helps to account for certain
patterns of sin in particular families and societies.

Baptism therefore does not erase original sin since the sin does not exist. The old "laundry of the soul," approach to Baptism is no longer
accepted.

As soon as Mr. Allam shook off the brainwashing of Islam and accepted the teaching of the Catholic Church, he became a Catholic.

However, as has been noted many times, the Catholic Church is almost as flawed as Islam and Mr. Allam is simply trading one hallucination and myth based religion for another."

Lately, most of these questions have been political in nature. This question is really about the political contest between Islam and Cahtolicism. To me, this type of contest is the most pitiful of the pitiful. This question is a great big gigantic food fight, just waiting to happen.

This should not be called the On Faith Forum; it should be called the Politics of Religion Forum.

WAPO doesn't think in terms of freedom of religion???

Do you know What the Koran and the Hadiths specify as punishment for one who leaves the Islamic faith?
Summed up in one word - Death. Please tell me who it is again that is against freedom of Religion Islam or WAPO faith?

And the Jesus of the New Testament is not the Jesus of the Koran.

Why build a bridge when you can fish for men from the banks?

For CCNL

I assume you will see this, since you seem to pop up everywhere. My most recent post, which was a little hostile, was actually directed at GaryD, not at you. I guess I got a little confused with the exchanges between the two of you. I'm sorry. Lately, I have been just reading you, without comment. I'm sorry.

what criticism? where? i read alot of muslim publications and visit many muslim blogs- and the baptism is generally seen for what it is- a weak attempt to provoke muslims, who are not rising to the bait.

a very popular blog i visit poited a similar question and not one person responded-

surely the pope has other things to do-
another unimaginative, needlessly conflict inducing question from sally and jon-

the pope's actions have generated alot of excitement from non-muslims however-

many seem poised to pounce on any reaction from muslims-

what a set up!

yawn... sally and jon- the pope is coming to new york on the 15th of april-

are you suggesting that this pope has no defining message outside of his reactions against muslims?

if so, that is bad news spiritually for catholics.

Muslims do actually believe in Jesus (Isa) - he is a legit prophet in Islam. People seem to often forget this, including Muslims.

The Washington Post like so many others would have us march in lock step without allowing people the freedom to accept what they believe...real nice Sally.