Spitzer and Morality

May Allah guide us all to the right path, Ameen!

Mut'a initially was allowed for very very short period in the beginning of Islam when people were newly reverting. To have open lawful relation and not the secret, lying, manipulated hidden one (adultery & fornication). But later VERY SOON FORBIDDEN CLEARLY as mentioned in on record Sahi Hadiths.

In Shia sect it is still accepted by very small number of "Mujtahidins".

It is important to mention that how Shia sect came into being and what is the difference between main stream Muslims and Shia Muslims.

Shia sect was founded by Abdullah bin Saba (a Jewish convert hypocrite). ( Like Molis in Christianity).

His points of propagations were:

1- Only Hazrat Ali (r.a) was the rightful Caliph and Imam of Muslim Ummah and not the first 3 Caliphs. Because he was the direct descendent of Prophets Family. There Grandfather was same and he married to Prophets daughter. And variously quoted hadith, "Prophet (PBUH) said, I'm Knowledge and Ali (r.a) is gate to the knowledge".
2- The Imamat and Chilapht will only be transferred to Prophets Family as in case of previous prophets.

Due to his evil propagation against teachings of Islam, first he was expelled from the city by the Governor of Baghdad, and then expelled form Basra. And then he hide and settled in the city of Kofa and made it his center of activities.

Clearly he was propagating against the teachings of Islam and Prophet (PBUH). EVEN HAZRAT ALI (r.a) HIMSELF WHEN HE BECAME CALIPH ORDERED HIS DEATH, BECAUSE HE WAS CREATED "FITNA" AMONG MUSLIMS.

But main stream Muslims always respected Shia’s because the foundation and BASIC RELIGION IS SAME THAT IS BASED ON “QUR’AN AND SUNNAH ONLY”.

AS EVERY MUSLIM KNOWS :
–i- Ijtahad, -ii- Fiqah –iii- Tafseer –iv- Sharia (Islamic Law) etc ARE NOT RELIGION.
THEY ARE ONLY EXPLATIONS AND ELOBORATIONS. AND AT ANY TIME IF PROVEN CONTRADICTING TO RELIGION CAN BECOME NULL AND VOID.

The main stream Muslims always refuted Shia’s by quoting following:

- If previous 3 Caliph’s were not right then Hazrat Ali (r.a.) had never taken “Baat” on them (Voted in their favor himself, even after few days in case of first Caliph). As ALL Prophets and even rightful disciples or people never bowed in front of falsehood or lie. Hazrat Ali’s (r.a.) baat it self is proving MAIN SHIA BELIEVE WRONG. Because after Prophet (PBUH) Shia’s believes in Ali (r.a.).
- In the absence of Prophet (PBUH), Hazrat Abu Bakar (r.a) first Caliph use to take the place of Imamat in Namaz (prayer). Once somebody else tried but Prophet (PBUH) stopped the person and according to Sahi Hadith said after me Abu Bakar (r.a.) is the only rightful person for Amamat.
- Prophet (PBUH) also said about second Caliph- Sahi Hadith, “I’m the seal of Prophet’s, none after me will be coming, but if there could any, it would be Omer (r.a)”.

SURLY Abdullah Bin Saba (the Jew convert) was a HYPOCRATE who introduced Shia Sect among Muslims and also introduced and continued so many other forbidden practices in Shia’s like Mut’a.

I say we move on to a much more interesting subject such as this Obama and his pastor controversy! Oh, I almost forgot. The liberal, far left sites such as washingtonpost want to hide one of the most important issues that the world needs to hear about...that being the truth about Obama. But Obama is the liberals buddy, and they won't dare touch him. God help us!!!

GaryD,

Tell us please that you do not believe in the A&E myth!!!! Even Catholic schools teach that the story is mythical.

What does the Eliot Spitzer scandal say about our public and private morality? Should he have resigned?

Do I detect a pattern here? And what of power relationships as the Democratic party gains more power? What of power relationships in places such as Europe which have become more socialistic (but not so socialistic as to become far left and therefore resemble far right in power structure)?

We notice that in the U.S. prominent Democrats seem more often than prominent right-wingers to be guilty of the sin of philandering--and this is often excused along the lines of "at least "he" was not a corrupt businessman or invading Iraq or--". In short it seems as we become more Democratic and attack certain forms of immorality we become susceptible to others and it may be this is inevitable due to forms power must take if not being allowed to structure along the lines of other forms.

If a Democratic candidate is for universal healthcare, full employment, for women's rights, for minority rights,--what power is allowed a man in such a world? What form will the power of men take? It seems the common trend is for men to become philanderers, to insert cigars into vaginas, to procure as expensive as possible call girls--or simply as in Europe to have the best mistresses.

In the U.S. today it seems we have a war between two moralities. We have right wing actions cloaked by religion--God, guns and country and free markets--and on the left we have a relentless critique of such but a breakdown of morality--or more accurately, society--in the direction of a looseness of sexual behavior as other forms of immorality are being criticized. The question is can we reform one form of immorality while being susceptible and in fact succumbing to another. What do minority rights matter if this power results simultaneously in fathers not sticking around to raise children?

What we have is not a question between public and private morality but a turning over of one form of public morality and in exposing its underside becoming susceptible to other forms of immorality--or rather the philandering of men has always existed and the question is in overturning forms of "morality" (revealing undersides) we are making progress on morality or just sinking deeper into immorality, even if such immorality now just takes the shape of philandering men.

An interesting question this one and one of danger for the Democratic party. Obviously Republicans will keep a sharp eye out for the forms immorality will take if "Republican forms" of immorality are not allowed to exist according to Democrats. Power flows into channels, and obviously we would like people to flow into higher channels--sublimate, I believe is the word--but just as obviously we can expect one form of immorality to erupt into another as quickly as we extirpate the first,--that is just common sense.

I would like to read a book which anticipates future power relationships in Democratic societies so we know the forms immorality will take not to mention future forms of morality or behaviors of men. The Eliot Spitzer example is certainly one of attacking certain forms of immorality and tipping over violently into another form which however is the form likely to be excused by one of our political parties, the Democratic. Certainly in a Democratic society there should be no such tippings but rather developments into higher forms of society.

Holimoses When did God tell Eve not to eat?. He Told Adam before Eve's creation.

At least if Spitzer were a muslim he'd have had to abide by some rules and obtain a temporary marriage and be upfront about it. Even Oriana Fallaci had to pay the bribe to obtain a temporary marriage in order to conduct her interviews back in the 70s.

In the literal sense, Spitzer's behavior was simply a crime. There are laws against prostitution and consuming the services of prostitutes. It is by no means a private matter.

In the larger sense, if prostitution were decriminalized as it should be, he is still unfit to be governor because he is a psychological trainwreck. Untrustworthy even in his most fundamental relationships.

Even if his wife knew or was ok with his behavior, the fact that he hid it meant he thought it was contrary to acceptable behavioral standards of his office. Conduct unbecoming a governor. He can leave office, but is not a criminal. And he's still a mental trainwreck.

Where he has committed real crimes is in his transactions. Follow the money. It will reveal the depth of his corruption.

--FIUS

http://www.al-islam.org/al-serat/muta/

The Arabic dictionaries define mut'a as 'enjoyment, pleasure, delight'. The root form, m-t: signifies, 'to carry away, to take away'. A 'marriage of mut'a' is a marriage which the contract stipulates will last for a fixed period of time. This 'marriage of mut'a' is referred to both in the hadith literature and, in much more detail, in the books on jurisprudence (fiqh). In the hadith and in other sayings related from early Muslims the word 'mut'a' itself is usually employed. The Shi'is hold that this particular term is the preferred name for temporary marriage because the Qur'an itself refers to this kind of marriage employing a term derived from the same root. In the following verse, the word istimta', the tenth verbal form of the root m-t-', is translated as 'enjoy': 'So those of them [women] whom you enjoy, give to them their appointed wages' (4:24).

Oh there Obfuscating Jihadist,

And the "obfusing" continues as you still have not addressed the flaws/errors of Islam.

And I am sure the Pope's "right and left" handers are well aware of "Crossanized" Catholicism so there is no need to remind him of it again. And you really think he would even "entertain" a move to the truth? Such a move would be the catalyst for the needed reform to reality, i.e. the "pink slipping" of the all-male priesthood.

And you noted: "Do I want to be a Crossanhized Christian? No."- We understand. A "Crossanized" Muslim would suffice. Just think what a "Crossanized", deflawed Islam would bring to the world i.e. Peace and Reality!!!!!

Once again for those that have not seen the first four major flaws/errors of Islam:

1. Belief in "pretty/ugly wingie thingies".

2. Belief that an hallucinating, illiterate Arab did actually talk to the "pretty Gabriel" in the hot "Gabe" cave and therein received the warmongering and anti-female words and resultant laws now listed in the koran.

3. That Sunnis are superior to Shiites in all aspects of life. And Shiites think the same way about Sunnis.

4. That Islam is perfect and the koran inherently condones no sin even though the 24/7, 800 year-old blood feud between Sunnis and Shiites gives significant credence that greed, hate, suicides, assassinations, maiming, and murder are condoned by the koran. Having multiple wives also gives significant credence to the sins of rape, adultery, lust and polygamy. The condoned treatment of these wives gives credence that the koran allows the sins of hatred, anger and greed.

CTCNL : And indeed until that changes, no one is safe based on the dictates of your warmongering and lusting, slave-owning founder!! He makes Eliot Spitzer look like a pretty wingie thingie!!!

The Prophet is not God, did say he is, nor do anyone.

Spitzer is not God, but he may have thought he was.

Amazing is it not, Jesus PBUH taught about love and still peace-loving, forgiving, repenting, turning the other cheek Christians do wage war till today?

How goes the Crossanization of Americans before the Pope goes to the US on 15 April 2008?

Don't forget to ask the Pope what is in the Vatican's secret achives. Inquiring minds wants to know.

And don't forget to submit your conclusions on the Bible as you posted in On Faith threads for the Pope's consideration.

His Holiness may agree on what you said on Islam, Muslims and the Prophet, but I am really certain he would not agree on what you said on Jesus PBUH.

His Holiness calls for "reason in faith." Unfortunately, the Pope never said to be reasonable in discussing reason, faith, or reason in faith.

Do I want to be a Crossanhized Christian? No.

Take is easy pussycat. Recession. Inflation.

Jihadist - the unrepentent, unapologetic, extremist, fundamentalist Muslim. :)

Oh there "Reality Challenged", Malaysian Deflawer, and Obfuscating Jihadist,

You classified yourself as the "unrepentent and unapologetic" Muslim. And indeed until that changes, no one is safe based on the dictates of your warmongering and lusting, slave-owning founder!! He makes Eliot Spitzer look like a pretty wingie thingie!!!

Concerned the Christian Now Liberated: "Maybe a nuke on the Vatican would wake up the flawed Catholics (something recommended by the nut jobs in Iran? )!!! Now do you feel better?"

Nuke the Vatican? Are you a Catholic of Reality and Crosssanized Christian nut? The Sistine Chapel is there. So is the Vatican's secret archives. I would would love to get my hands on those.

Excuse me. Our new Cabinet line-up was just announced. More important.

No nuke is good nuke.
Ban the bomb.

J - the unrepentent and unapologetic Muslim.
So there.

Oh there "Reality Challenged", "Malaysian Deflawer, and Obfuscating Jihadist,

Maybe a nuke on the Vatican would wake up the flawed Catholics (something recommended by the nut jobs in Iran? )!!! Now do you feel better?

And you are not abused, you simply suffer from being Bred, Born and Brainwashed in a very flawed Islam just like many of us were 3 B'd in Christianity. There is a quick cure and you have been sent the antidote many times.

If Eliot was black and republican this would attack on human nature would have never materialized. No one is saying he should't resign. He did! He is paid up in full for "the measure you give is the measure get". When will the cocroaches of the world their just adoo!!!!

If Eliot was black and republican this would attack on human nature would have never materialized. No one is saying he should't resign. He did! He is paid up in full for "the measure you give is the measure get". When will the cocroaches of the world their just adoo!!!!

If Eliot was black and republican this would attack on human nature would have never materialized. No one is saying he should't resign. He did! He is paid up in full for "the measure you give is the measure get". When will the cocroaches of the world their just adoo!!!!

America is the most permissive society in the world yet it demands high standards of those who are elected in public office: standards which they do not wish to be applied to themselves.

Hypocrisy leads to chaos. What's good for the goose surely is good for the gander.

The other thing is that American office holders can be hauled over the coal for sexual misdemeanors but literally get away with murder for corruption, lying and taking the country to wars based upon lies, thus killing thousands, both Americans and foreigners with total impunity. They have a free reign on creating enemies where enemies do no exist, yet no American takes issue with any of that. Dick Cheney gets away with murder, lies and conflict of interest yet poor Clinton nearly gets impeached for not keeping his trousers zipped up.

You are a funny lot. Killing and lying is fine but sex is a no no. I guess nationalism is the refuge of the scoundrel and getting caught with your trousers down is not good for American national pride but hey Brit Spears has immunity. We, the American public decide on who gets immunity.

Hello Gaby,

I just realised WaPo On Faith blog managers reversed the order of posts coming in for all threads from the latest being the last entry, to now the latest being on top of the threads.

I also noticed that others complained too, re their posts dissapearing from the threads and they wondering why too. And now On Faith has this red coloured statements in all threads asking to allow for two or three minutes for posts to come on.

Maybe it is a technical glitch, maybe it is not. But, hey, must register the protest anyway - on technical grounds, on censorship grounds any which way I can. Huffing and puffing.:)

Thanks and best regards

"J"

Oh, I see what you mean now, Jihadist!

I scrolled down further and indeed on of your posts has disappeared. Hmmm, do you really think is the WAPO editors or the inapt handling of this site???

I have noticed that they are trying to make changes and they are not very successful. If our webmaster was as incapable as the one who oversees this site, he would have been fired long ago.

Dear Jihadist,

What is going on???? What has disappeared? Did you post something else?

Bye the way, I was curious as to your reply to my reply...LOL

As far as Anonymous is concerned, I think he was speaking to me cause I called him an a*hole reply to a previous post where he tried (in my humble opinion) to malign my family. I do not take kindly to that.

Also, I think my daughter's views are more closely aligned with yours....when I told her about our online conversation she agreed with you and told me I need to reconsider.

Maybe it's because we grew up in different worlds.

Anyway, always like to see you post.

G

.....and hell hath known no fury like a woman whose post is scorned and deleted. An itsy bitsy teeny weeny fury, more of a self-stirred storm in a teacup in reaction.

What is this? Some posters telling me I am abused as a Muslim woman, exploited as a Muslim woman, degraded as a Muslim woman, brainswashed as a Muslim etc and then being abusive to me in posts, which no Muslim men ever did in real life or in Muslim blogs, and now asked for my post to be deleted?

Want me to say what you want to hear? I am not your subordinate. Clear up your minds then - on what are the parameters and bechmarks on what is offensive, what is free speech, and what is fighting words.

Interesting thing. Not a single four letter word there if I can recall correctly. Nor any insults against any religions or non-belief. Only questioning questions. Was it provocative questions?

I want the same freedom as Ann Coulter. I am shocked and dismayed my freedom of speech, freedom of thought, freedom of expression is censored. I am a voice in the wilderness. I am a voiceless voice. I am, er, who was that Voltaire and what was it he said? Something about not agreeing with someone but defending his right to the death to say it and such. Is that really true? Or don't apply to people who can't have and don't have democracies.

Quite amusing to realise that one's post is deleted.

What is this? Has one of my posts dissappeared because it it offensive to some? Or am I imagining it was posted by me and made to dissapear by On Faith managers?

Imagine that. I have never complained about anyone's offensive posts and asked them to be deleted even if there are too many such ones on Islam and Muslims, including those calling for Mecca to be nuked that is offensive. Not even posts calling me a terrorist. What gives.

Can't stand a Muslim talkbalk on insults and offensive comments on Islam and Muslims? Better a talkback rather than asking for censoring and deletion of comments.

My. Free speech indeed. Only for you to think and say anything you want and that is is your right to do so, but not my right of reply in any way I chose when and if I want to?

Concerned the Christian Now Liberated:)

Oh pussycat! Yeah, all Muslim men have four wives. Count them. Four! Eat your heart out. Oh, don't be prudish. Do I smell envy of Muslim men couched in saying Muslim women are prostitutes in polygamy?

Yeah well, Muslim men are more politically seized than sexually obsessed. Even with polygamy allowed for them, the majority of Muslim men are monogamous.

Of course, unlike in the west, some rich Muslim men have trophy wives -discarding their first wife for a sweet young thing to drape on their arms and to show off.

Some rich Muslim men also do have several wives through polygamous marraiges as a show of their ability to multiple throphy wives.

Unfortunately, this is more common in the Arab Muslim world than in the non-Arab Muslim world. I have no idea what is wrong with non-Arab Muslim men.

Anonymous : "Let's call it a day shall we and leave things to perish. There is no point in this anymore."

Until another public official is caught with a prostitute and create a public huffing and puffing again on hypocrisy, ethics, values etc and I'm happy to be a righteous religionist on it. Never mind I can't remember if prostitution is the world's oldest or second oldest profession anymore.

But how we regard prostitutes, why they have a market and how we react to them, from for holy or spiritual purposes to now as legitimate and illegimate pleasure providers as a business, it is telling of how we rationalised them over the ages.

On this, I do agree with Concerned the Christian Now Liberated's cheeky proposal - that Spitzer should become a Muslim so he can have up to four wives and don't have to resort to such stealty behavior. He do have the time, the financial and physical means to do so. And, perhaps, the public and his wife would prefer him being open about him having more than one wife rather than skulking around with a mistress or a prostitute.

Perhaps, if Spitzer is really not into long term committed relationship, we can reactivate back mut'a (temporary marraiges) just for him for the period of time both sides agreed to. This form of temporary marraiges (mut'a) while legal and advocated by some Muslim ulema, is objected to by most others as a form of legalised prostitution. This debate is still going on on mut'a in some Muslim countries.

Perhaps if that is not appealing enough for Spitzer, and as he now resigned from public office, we can ship him off to Amsterdam or Bangkok where he can have all the sex he can pay for. The cost of living in Bangkok is cheaper than in Amsterdam, so more mileage for Spitzer's dollars in for the business transactions with these professional ladies of the night who are providing a much needed service for the health and well-being of man.

Seems to still be so much hypocrisy in some monogamous marraiges, and there are some proposals for non-jealous open marraiges and such to address man's nature and natural urges. Polygamy is not bad after all, then. Better to be a wife than a mistress, or to have a husband gallivanting with prostitutes and have less than safe sex. One also has legal rights as a wife in a polygamous marraige, and at least men won't have to lie.

Polygamy is not such a great problem as divorces between monogamous couples - for alimony and for child support for the simple fact that over 90% of Muslim marraiges are monogomous. Polygamy is one of the solutions and not perfect in its implementation. Muslim men seem to prefer being serial monogamists rather than polygamists.

Yes, we all know that some, many? men can never keep their pants on, so the issue is not men taking on other wives, but that he must be able to provide for all wives and the children that resulted equally and fairly.

This is balancing the reality of man's difficult to control and should never be restrained sexual activities and needs for their mental health (so they asserted) with some responsibility. Of course men don't like it. And of course, even some Muslim ulema, in jurisprudence, are most partial to men on these matters of marraiges and divorce. Like all men in the world, they do need gender sensitisation too.

Man is born free, has free will, yet everywhere women wants them to be responsible and can be trusted. Darn us spoilsport women. We just won't let fellows who just want to have fun and leave a mess afterwards.

So, Anonymous, why let it perish? Sexism never do. Even in marraiges. Even in sex. Even in adultery. That is the point.

Let's call it a day shall we and leave things to perish. There is no point in this anymore.

10:03, You are incorrigible sometimes. Must you keep this up?

Is there any end to what you will do to keep this going? What? What? What?

jonny,
Thank you for pointing out that Mr Spitzers core spiritual beliefs were at the heart of his rule.
There truly is nothing new under the sun.

Oh, fer Pete's sake. Temples throughout the ages (including the Booble, old testament) had TEMPLE hookers, and when ya spent yer dough, it was HOLY.

WHAT?? It's different NOW? How? Why?

What a load.

Mr Mark: "Mr Spitzer's infidelity lied us into war. As a result, tens of thousands of Iraqis and nearly 4,000 American soldiers lie dead.....[sarcasm off]"

Good point, Mr Mark.

Spitzer's crime was insignificant in comparison, but unlike Bush's much greater crime, Spitzer's is a known and accepted crime, committed by many people, everyday. We can relate to it and thus, perhaps, are more likely to punish it.

Luke, "I guess what I'm saying is "Forgive, People of God, Forgive""
~~~~~~~~~

That is all you had to say. How can I not?

BTW did you know that the author of the gospel of Luke was a physican by trade? Just thought that you might like to know the history surrounding it knowing the history buff that you are. :~)

Although, if I had made this video I would have it end with a man with a lever, pushing bigger and bigger cameras until it all falls down on its own weight, as in a previous scene :).

How about using a 1984ish system designed to catch terrorists for mud-throwing and political purposes?
As far as I understood Spitzer was "caught" because of it.
How is that NOT evil, and what does it say about public morality? How is it NOT part of the whole story?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=T6c-umQ_hlc

(changed nickname from Aquarius)

- GaryD:

Your response indicated that they ate and then their eyes were opened. So Holimosses was addressing the issue of their eyes being 'opened' after 'scripture' had already stated their eyes were 'open' and they could discern beauty.

Now that you mention it, the rest of the verse states, (probably depending on the translation), '...gave some to her "husband" who was with her'...; since there were only the two, their eyes were not open, and they didn't know they were naked - how was it that Adam was identified as Eve's husband??

"The tale of Adam is our own...." Or did the writers believe that there was 'no one true God' so that they could create and 'diss' a "one true God" without fear of retribution????

Dear Jihadist,

Of course I don't condone trade in humans, tricking women into the trade of prostitution, etc.

I am talking about women who make a conscious choice to make their money that way. And you are absolutely right in your statement

"Paying for sex does gives the impression of personal disconnectedness with another human being, of treating sex as a normal bodily need with as much clinical detachment as having a foot message by a masseur."

In my opinion that is the beauty of it. No emotional connection, no longterm relationship, no worry for the wife that her husband will actually abondon her for "the other women".

That is what prostitution is all about. A business transaction between two adults (by the way, that also means when a woman visits a male prostitute) without any other commitment than sex for money.

Having grown up in Europe, my view is certainly colored differently than yours having grown up in Asia. Additionally, since I am not a religious book believer, I guess I have a more open view than those who follow the bible, koran, torah, etc.

As alway good hearing your views on things.

G

As humans, it seems we have two sets of instincts that influence us, that can guide us or which we can choose to follow.

The instincts of our animal nature (real and undeniable). And the impulses of our soul nature (our higher & nobler virtues and qualities).

The metaphorical war between the two within each one of us as individuals is the true understanding of Armageddon.

Spitzer's frailties in the matter are on display; all the rest of us struggle with our own version, just usually more privately.

I don't think any of us are superior to him; perhaps luckier, perhaps we wrestle with different failings, perhaps some of us have conquered through will or faith a few (but certainly not all) of our more destructive impulses.....whatever.

As humans we all struggle with our issues; we all have to figure out the road to inner peace ultimately on our own.

I don't excuse or defend at all what he did. And I have no doubt he is entering his own private hell regarding the consequences of his actions (sadly his wife and daughters entering their version, too).

Doesn't life teach us, also, at some point to not be too judgmental, to have a little compassion and understanding for the great work, the great process (including inevitable mis-steps) of growing and refining our character and behavior slowly over the years and decades of life?

Shouldn't we too take a time such as this to reflect a little on where we could correct an inadequacy in ourselves?

The three finger rule applies, not just to Spitzer but also to all the holier than him who take so much pleasure in condemning him. How does anyone know that they're not just trying to divert God's attention from their own "moral failures"? A road trip through the "Bible Belt" reveals that for every church there is a porn shop nearby.

Dogs are thieves, humans are liars. It got us to where we are today.

Hello Gaby,

Yes. Spitzer slept with a prostitute. No big deal for us perhaps, not our business, but certainly for his wife and family.

It would be a different reaction if the wife is caught with a gigolo. Do you really think men will say, "So what? It's no big deal"?

It is bad enough for a waitres in a diner to find out her husband is going to a prostitute.

I don't want to imagine what Mrs. Spitzer is going through knowing the whole world knows about Spitzer sleeping with and paying a prostitute US $ 2,000 for the pleasure, even here in Kuala Lumpur. We know about it as the local media can't resist picking up from US media on juicy scandals. It sells newspapers.

Statistics shows that America is not puritanical. Its pornography industry is the biggest in the world and the land originating Playboy, Penthouse, Hustler and such.

Yes, Germany and the Netherlands among others in Europe regulated its sex industry. The original intent was to contain STDs. Of course Europe has a history of its aristocrats having mistresses and courtesans (the nicer and classier term for ladies of the night).

And a French wife do expect and don't really raise eyebrows if and when their men have mistresses or go to the ladies of the night. Due to French Catholic history and heritage when divorce is, well, not quite acceptable. Only in the last century since was divorce easier.

I would not quite say prostitution is seen as a normal business transaction between two consenting adults in Europe. No self-respecting man, married or otherwise, really like others, especially his wife, girlfriend, partner, to know that they spent time with the ladies of the night. Even high class and expensive ones. They'd rather people know they have a mistress.

There is a great difference between sex between consenting adults for no money and in one where one partner pays.

Paying for sex does gives the impression of personal disconnectedness with another human being, of treating sex as a normal bodily need with as much clinical detachment as having a foot message by a masseur.

I agree with Viejita Del Oeste that women are expected to have higher self-standards on sex than men and men expect women to forgive and forget and not make a fuss over what they said is natural human nature, needs and wants and would quote studies of the animal kingdom of randy and footloose baboons to prove their point.

But then, we are not in the animal kingdom nor do any creature in the animal kingdom enacts laws on their rights. We do for them for their protection against their own extinction. And we are not protecting women but men's rights to do as they please and get away with it?

As for prostitution being voluntary, and thus not a crime as it is between consenting adults for services rendered, well, almost all in Asia would rather have another profession but were forced into it, tricked into it, or had to do it out of economic reasons as no other employment is available to them due to lack of appropriate education and skills. Or their husbands leaving them without financial support.

Making prostitution legal in Europe is one reason why there is an unceasing flow of trafficking of women from Asia and Eastern Europe/Russia to those countries. And most of these women were tricked into it. And we really don't want to go into Chinese Triads and Russian Mafia making hundreds of millions off these women.

Does anyone really knows Kristen's cut of the $ 2,000? It is not about consenting sex anymore. It is about exploited women. Why should the ring who fix Kristen up with Spitzer gets more than 15% agent's fee for example?

In using the services of prostitutes, men are enablers and facilators of, well, sex for sale, women for sale.

Do you really want to tell your female relatives and friends it is a good profession for them to pursue with a nice career path, promotion prospects, pension funds, company Christmas parties, and retirement farewell parties etc.?

It is a profession of diminishing returns and prospects as one gets older. If one saves enough, one may just be able to open a hair salon or massage parlour.

My opinion, of course, is coloured by the fate of Asians prostitutes. Perhaps in America it is different. Perhaps all the ladies of the nights pick out this profession by free choice and free will and have no social stigmas attached to them by the very men who used their services.

The case of Mr. Spitzer made me realise that some American men are quick to stand by their fellow men who use prostitutes and not just the wives of the men themselves who would stand by their men regardless.

In the end, we, men and women, are all responsible for perpetuating prostitution in tolerating it as a business meeting a consumer need. The fact remains that the legal ones and those who voluntarily chose to be ladies of the nights are a very small minority.

We are so humanist. We are so humane. We are so self-centred in asserting our natural biological needs and fundamental rights to cater to those needs that we are not seeing the person who is providing us with those needs for money. Why she is doing it? And the millions of prostitutes who are not charging US$ 2,000 but less than US $ 100 in the US and less than US $ 5 in many developing countries.

Who gives a hoot for the fate of Spitzer.

BTW, why not take the view that Spitzer loves prostitutes? (that would also explain his past anti-exploitation lawmaking)

(changed nickname yet again:)

Anon,

BTW, you are what I would call a cestpool of the Moral Majority of American thinking...

Read your bible and bother my no more...even better....read the little children's book I posted...but then again, that morality would be lost on you and you ilk.

I really don't understand what all the fuss is about...From what I can tell he didn't run the ring and got rich of it at the expense of the "Ladies of the Night".

He slept with a prostitute.....big deal!!!!!

America needs to let go of its puritanical roots. In most other industrialized western countries, prostitution is seen as a normal business transaction between two consenting adults. It is a regulated business where the women pay taxes, are required to have health evaluations every six month, and are contributing members of society. Most married women in Europe would rather their husband see a professional lady than a fly-by-night or starting an affair.

There are plenty of other things we should concern ourselves with....Like the war in Iraq, the ongoing tribulations in Afghanistan, the slaughter in Dafur, etc., etc. etc.....

And maybe it would behove us to question why the dollar is not wanted any more in most countries, but who cares....we are one Nation Under GOD....

Yeah

Please read the following, all of it. I am sending it to my brother and his wife who are indoctrinating my beautiful little niece with Catholic mumbo jumbo.

http://www.ferkelbuch.de/

Oh there "Reality Challenged" and Obfuscating Jihadist,

Again you fail to note a major flaw in Islam i.e. polygamy i.e. as noted previously, Mr. Spitzer's real mistake was not declaring himself to be a Muslim thereby being able to claim his call girls his other wives. Probably would not be acceptable in the US courts but hey he could have packed his bags and "shuffled off" to Saudi Arabia becoming a lobbyist for the King in the halls and hotels of Washington D.C. Maybe he still will do this. Hmmm, Elliot Spitzer in a ghutra an iqal and thawb???

I wonder if Kristen had any Saudi princes on her list????

Which Holimoses, is precisely why I attempted to enlighten. Why did you leave out 3/3 of verse 6?

Dear whatever name you are using:
The idea of having sex for money makes me queasy at best. But just like no one would sell drugs if nobody bought them, prostitutes would not exist if there were no johns. We have tried locking up sex workers and drug dealers and as long as there is demand, a new supply will spring up to fill in the gaps.

Your use of words like sl*t also troubles me. Are you saying that women have more responsibility for sexual purity than men do? If not, you need to moderate your language. I agree that this woman is more than a victim in all this, but she is essentially powerless compared to the governor.

To return to my first analogy, she did not stand in a schoolyard trying to lure a child into a sinful addiction. Spitzer is an adult and he initiated the activity. Our hypersexualized society needs to hold men accountable for their harmful impulses -- at least as much as women. I see this as an issue of personal responsibility, for both partners.

You are correct that we tend to give a pass to the profit motive while condemning "personal immorality." Kristin or Ashley or whatever she calls herself seems to be guilty of greed (for money) and the related desire for a quick buck. Sort of like a sub-prime mortgage broker or an executive at Enron. The fact that her behavior was demonstrably x-rated doesn't make it any more disgusting than theirs.

- GaryD:

It should be noted that Verse 5 says that eating of the tree will make it possible to be 'like God' and know good and evil; and Verse 6 states that: So when the woman 'saw' that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the 'eyes', and a tree to make one wise ....". Verse 7: Then the 'eyes' of both of them were 'opened' and they knew they were naked ...". If all mankind knows 'good and evil' then Bush/The Far Right/Pat Robertson/etc. doesn't have an exclusive charter for determining good and evil!

Once you get to the point that you can analyze the writings objectively you can see that the writers of the Bible were/are obsess with sex and that they almost always make statements that cannot be true, then proclaim them to be true.

Maybe it is the highjacking of the Supreme Being (God) and the 'dissing' of women that should be the original 'sin'.

Maybe God doesn't like to be 'dissed' by someone saying he did or said something he didn't say or do!!!! "...think or these things"!!!!!!!!!

HOlimoses, one should note that the fault as portrayed in scripture for original sin did not lie with Eve. One should note that until Adam ate no one's eye's were opened. God had made it Adam's responsibility.

Spitzer, the arrogant, the powerful, the alpha male, has to pay for sex? Pathetic.

Perhaps we should consider hookers as the insurgents against and undermining social, ethical norms and moralistic values imposed by alpha men themselves to control other men and women but think don't apply to them, they can get away with, and will never get caught.

Perhaps we should give annual "Hookers of the Year" awards to those who showed up public and religious officials caught with their pants and public faces down.

Perhaps some of the criteria should be:

- how much money they charged to men who think every woman is throwing themselves at them because they are significant public officials.

- how high up the men are in public posts

- how fast he resigned

Quite irrititating to see that hookers are almost "blamed" for the serious lapse of trust the public officials. She did not ask him to come to her. She did not ask him to pay her. But he did.

A hooker is different from a mistress. She is smarter. She would not give a married man who would not leave his wife anything for free.

Hooray for hoookers! It's your professional calling sisters, to buck the social norms and laws set and uphold by hypocrital and self-serving men - as insurgents against hypocrisies and hypocrites, as frontline shock troops against pompous, righteous patriachical champs and chimps. Bring em down! We'll take it from there and keep them out.

Hope Mrs. Spitzer take all and leave Mr. Spitzer. How can anyone be certain there was not other laspes of infidelity, adultery, breach or trust apart from the one with "Kristen" which he was caught? Mrs. Spitzer deserve better. Unless her love is blind.

Let us all be supporters of the Hookers' Liberation Front against Hypocritical and Self-Serving Male Domination in Politics and Religions. Never mind the call-girl ring is set up, managed and profited by men. Sign...

Oh ye, my American sisters. Are you sure you are that free and liberated from men's rules, expectations and gender conditioning? Even if you are atheists and with atheist men?

Thanks and regards
"J" Grrrr......Brrrr....:)

Mr Spitzer's scandal makes manifest the true spiritual and moral beliefs by which the people of New York were being governed,and by which Mrs. Spitzer was spiritually and morally betrayed.
Every politician governs according to their true spirituallity,regardless of the spirituallity that is presented for public consumption.
The question presented itself reflects a nebulous,if not abysmal spiritual understanding that is laughable.
As if we can compartmentalize multiple spiritualities and summon them at will.
Jesus said it best," a man cannot serve two masters"
The idea that his wife, the one who was most solemnly sworn to before God,ranks lower on the governor's spirtual food chain than the constituency
What a colossal assumption of self inportance.

The Eliot Spitzer scandal says nothing about our society's sense of morality and everything about the sensationalism of the news these days.

As a kid I remember reading about Fanne Fox and Wilbur Mills. What's different now?

As a New Yorker, I'm dumbfounded that the governor would want to practice "unsafe" sex and bring who knows what diseases home to his wife.

I am pleased, however, that "Dr. Laura" was nearly shouted down when she suggested that men cheat because they're not feeling appreciated or understood at home.

Spitzer sounds like he has a case of arrested development and possibly a sex addiction.

There's no amount of attention you can give a sex addict that makes them feel good enough.

Issues of morality come home to all of us times. Last night I ran into an acquaintance of mine that I have had some differences with in the recent past. The last time that I saw this man he said some very hurtful things to me. I did not tell him this but at the time that he said them I immediately walked away.

He approached me last night in such a humble manner and came right to the point, identifying the incident that I speak of above. After he identified it, he then verbalized recognition that he may have offended me by what he said. I acknowledged that he had “hurt” me by what he said. He then took full responsibility of his actions and apologized to me.

Based on his approach and sincerity to rectify the situation I immediately accepted his apology. Furthermore, I was so overcome by his sensitivity and acknowledgment of my feelings from his actions and his genuine remorseful attitude that as I forgave his offense. I immediately felt a release from my hurt regarding the incidence. This man obviously has a conscious and an inner conviction at work in order for him to do the above.

Now you ask how can Sidal forgive her husband after what he has done. Really we do not know the true answer but speculate the reason. However, I will tell you that there is “power” in forgiveness in combination with true repentance or remorse over one that has wronged another.

Jesus preached this same concept to freely forgive those that repent,
John 8:3-, {3}And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, {4}They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. {5}Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? {6}This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. {7}So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. {8}And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. {9}And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. {10} When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? {11}She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

The combination of “ true repentance” and “forgiveness” are a powerful source that is not easily broken.

Patrick, thank you for restoring my faith in men again because I had none. But you have given me a foundation to build on again. You are truly a man with conviction and good morals.

CF

WEll well well, the little screed by Ms.
Quinnn has just up and disappeared. Didn't meet hosannahs, apparently.

Let's see. Can't mention Israel, or certainly not tell the truth. (Never another PEEP about the firing of Gandhi by editors of WAPO pandering to jewish complaints.) In Russia that'd be called censure.

The list grows and grows. All we get for "ON FAITH" is Berlinerblau. In headlines... though there are others hidden if you look hard enough way inside.

Mr. Spitzer is a human being after all. Moreover, it turns out he has an eye for the ladies although I can't see what he sees in 22 year olds. What the hell do you talk about afterwards. Nevertheless, I would have Elliot Spitzer as a friend, someone I would trust implicitly and explicitly, and know that if the chips were down this man would come through. The same goes for Bill Clinton, Julius Caesar and John Kennedy--men who all had an eye for the ladies.

For the rest of you moral judges, the distillate of 2,000 years of the Judeo-Christian ethic, your search for a neutered beta male as a leader is pathetic. Leave this man alone. Leave his wife alone. Go back to your miserable existence where you can only wonder how some men and women live as if they won't pass this way again. Most of you have never lived nor will you ever.

The world, as a global society, ended 19 years ago. Today's global society is post-apocalyptic but there are many people who are still apocalyptic (for whom the world has ended but hasn't begun), rather then post-apocalyptic.
(I mean this in the common sense of the word, not the biblical)

There is scriptural ground for divorce when adultery is committed according to,

Matthew 5:31-32, {31} "It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce. {32} But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery." NIV

The one who did not commit adultery is free to marry again.

good heavens:

Ts, ts, you have a very vivid imagination :). I've had girlfriends (all 207 of them at the same time!) and I have never been married.

Otherwise, yes, there are circumstances that I write off as something else. I blame Paris Hilton for the end of the world. Haliburton and Co. are merely God's tool in bringing this about, led by the last avatar of Vishnu - archangel George.
How could I indeed, a mere human, questio...

There is scriptural ground for divorce when adultery is committed according to,

Matthew 5:31-32, {31} "It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce. {32} But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery." NIV

The one who did not commit adultery is free to marry again.

Jesus' commentary about marriage/divorce has been rated authenic Jesus by many contemporary NT exegetes, i.e.

Against Divorce: (1) 1 Cor 7:10-11; (2) 1or2?Q: Luke 16:18 = Matt 5:31-32; (3) Mark 10:10-12 = Matt 19:9; (4) Herm. Man. 4.1:6b,10 multiple attestations from the first stratum, 30-60 CE

See http://wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php/015_Against_Divorce

Mark 10: 6-12-

"But from the beginning of creation, 'God made them male and female.' /7/ 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, /8/ and the two shall become one flesh.' So they are no longer two, but one flesh. /9/ Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate." /10/ Then in the house the disciples asked him again about this matter. /11/ He said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her; /12/ and if she divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery."

Perspective,

Sorry about that "dig" against Democratic adulterers. They just stick out in a crowd of misbehaving politicians :))

Here is an expanded view to include some Republican adulterers:

What else was in Mr. Spitzer's hotel room??? The stench and ghosts of JFK, Bill Clinton, Gary Hart, Jesse Jackson, Newt Gingrich, Rudy Giuliani, Kobe Bryant, Bill Cosby and every Muslim polygamist!!!!!!

TJ, ""I want to be free from this lifelong pain. Why didn't any changes occur or any love or help come when I accepted you as Lord and Savior?"

Good question kid."

`````````````

I believe when that kid wrote that letter he was emotionally distraught and under those type of circumstances people can see their life situations in a negative light.

Plus we do not know how long he was a Christian maybe he was expecting an instant turnaround and when it didn't come it yielded instant disappointment.

Most likely he had other severe issue going on in his life as well.

There's certainly no shortage of self-righteousness present here. What a relief! I would have thought the whole country was going to hell in a hand basket but luckily there are a few citizens that are holier-than-thou remaining. The stench of sanctimony is overwhelming.

CCNL - and again, you've identified your political persuasions & party of preference quite clearly with your typically obsessive and skewed perspective. Thanks for pointing out that the only folks stepping outside the boundries of marital fidelity and good taste are democrats and/or african americans.....and of course the usual suspects - Muslim offenders.

And good luck with that limp candidate of yours -

This isn't quite as interesting as the letter that the kid in CO wrote to his imaginary buddy before he started shooting.

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/15576902/detail.html

"I want to be free from this lifelong pain. Why didn't any changes occur or any love or help come when I accepted you as Lord and Savior?"

Good question kid.

Viejita del oeste, "JC Today & Always, I've got to disagree with your point. You can't blame the woman on this one. The person with the power was Spitzer, not the sex worker Dupre. I read that somewhere, I think Sweden, they've cut down on prostitution by changing the way the laws are written. They did it by prosecuting the customers but not the prostitutes: cut back on demand and the supply disappears."
~~~~~~~~~~~

We are not in Sweden.

Regardless, the sl*t has a moral responsibility as well as the fact that she broke the law by charging money for Spitzer to have sex with her.

I hope they throw the book at her and Spitzer. The prostitute has 2 major problems, one LUST for sex and two LUST/GREED for money. The root of evil is “the love of money.”

Just because I did not mention Spitzer in my post does not mean that I think he is not responsible. In my opinion they "both" are equality as guilty and deserve to be prosecuted.

This is kind of a boring question. Why aren't we talking about Jeremiah Wright?

JC Today & Always, I've got to disagree with your point. You can't blame the woman on this one. The person with the power was Spitzer, not the sex worker Dupre. I read that somewhere, I think Sweden, they've cut down on prostitution by changing the way the laws are written. They did it by prosecuting the customers but not the prostitutes: cut back on demand and the supply disappears.

...And Gary D is correct about the sexual harassment. An office manager may be in no position to say no to the governor. That would be abuse of power at the very least.

Sexuality is a major factor in human beings' lives. It relates to male and females.

Sexuality differs. There are as many types of sexuality as people.

Sexuality is limited by laws and moral values to prevent any harm to other individuals.

But if one takes responsibility as a public servant, he/she must put limits to expression of his/her sexuality. It's one of unsaid terms of contract between people and public servants.

The tragedy of Diana was exactly that. She couldn't understand that the highest priority was to serve, not to live private life.

As to the public interst - it's inevitable as a result of development of mass media. Times when Mrs. Kennedy should have warned JFK about her visit to his wing of the White House - those times are over.

Same relates to the Spitzer's case - no more, no less. Resigned - and forgotten!

What else was in Mr. Spitzer's hotel room??? The stench and ghosts of JFK, Bill Clinton, Gary Hart, Jesse Jackson, Kobe Bryant, Bill Cosby and every Muslim polygamist!!!!!!

Mr. Spitzer did two things.:
1) He broke the law. It may be a silly law but he broke it while being a purist governor. Resignation was appropriate. Senator Vitter and Senator Craig could take lessons in honor from him. At least, in the end he did the right thing. They continue to serve despite their criminality.
2) He deceived his wife. This is a private matter. They will resolve it as they choose to resolve it. I wish them well in doing so.

This conversation on morality reminds me long ago of feeling queasy when reading about a young reporter who wrote anonymous messages to her editor, massaging his ego until it was worn down and he left his wife, and perhaps family. Now, many years later, the young reporter is a maven of Washington society, leading the way with a moral compass. Funny how time erases the memory of these kinds of deeds; I imagine this embarassment for the Spitzer family will eventually vanish, as well.

This conversation on morality reminds me long ago of feeling queasy when reading about a young reporter who wrote anonymous messages to her editor, massaging his ego until it was worn down and he left his wife, and perhaps family. Now, many years later, the young reporter is a maven of Washington society, leading the way with a moral compass. Funny how time erases the memory of these kinds of deeds; I imagine this embarassment for the Spitzer family will eventually vanish, as well.

Anyway, lots of misguided morality and sexual repressiveness begins as love.

Example: Veils.
It all begins with valuing and loving women. Then comes jealousy - are other men looking at my wife and daughters too much? Then comes protection of what you love and value - covering them, so that they would not be coveted, and locking them at home. Then comes institutionalizing women's high value, in the form of paying (dowry) to get them.
This is how people turn loved ones into cattle.

Incidentally, the same trend can be observed in western society with respect to kids. Have ten kids and you don't care too much if one or two die, or fail in life.
Have only two kids, and all your future is in them and has to be protected, shielded and guided. This is how they never grow up and begin to look at the state as a substitute parent/nanny.

Well, garyd, I've had sex with people I haven't been married to: tropical storms didn't become more frequent, the Arctic didn't melt, a big army was not gathered between the Tigris and Euphrates, a million people didn't die, and I don't owe the world 30000 USD as part of a national debt.

One fundamental problem is that humanity has bought into the concept that humans were created "a little lower than the angels" rather than just the next design iteration up from other animals. Maybe it has been a good concept for humans over the years but Bush and his war of choice and romance has blown the cover of any validity to the concept of creation in six days and the "fall of man" by "sin" against God brought about by the enticement of a woman/Eve.

So it should be "back to the drawing board" of how we/humans got here and what 'rules' we should live by. Evolution of species by natural selection is an even worse concept.

If women ever catch on - they should be 'mad as h---' for being blamed for 'sin'.

Blake got another one wrong. Brothels are built for the convenience of sinners. The Were brothels long before there were religious moralists that cared about such things.

In fact the Jesus seminarians got another one wrong.

First at no point in the scripture in Mark does Jesus tell the woman she is forgiven rather he gives her an impossible command "Go and sin no more."

Second the whole scenario was little more than an attempt to snare Jesus in an unjust act. That act would have been to stone the woman caught in the act but not her lover. Leviticus is quite clear on the necessity of stoning both for which act he could have himself been stoned. It is quite likely in fact that what Jesus scribbled in the dirt was the terse comment 'Where is the man?' No one threw the first stone because legally they could not and knew it. The sin of the pharisees in this was that because they had allowed the man to skate they had allowed both to escape the long established punishmnet for adultery in Israel.

"Prisons are built with stones of Law, Brothels with bricks of Religion"- William Blake

As a mother and a grandmother I cannot understand how Mr. or Mrs. Spitzer can stand together in a public forum as he grandly tells us that he is so very sorry. What concerns me more than anything else is what sort of message does this convey to our children, may they be forty or fourteen or four? I have watched women's rights erode in a time that I once had hoped would bring about equality for all women, not just for my daughter and son and now my grandchildren. Again sadly I see we have not gone forward, we are slipping further and further away from any sense of equal rights for women and for men. Mr. and Mrs. Spitzer's disgrace is our own.

The historic Jesus' take on adultery and marriage/divorce:

Many contemporary NT exegetes have concluded that the stoning story in the NT was not from the historic Jesus but was a later add-on.

521-. Adulterous Woman Forgiven: (1) John 7:53-8:11- single attestation from the fourth stratum, 120-150 CE

However, Jesus' commentary about marriage/divorce has been rated authenic Jesus i.e.

Against Divorce: (1) 1 Cor 7:10-11; (2) 1or2?Q: Luke 16:18 = Matt 5:31-32; (3) Mark 10:10-12 = Matt 19:9; (4) Herm. Man. 4.1:6b,10 multiple attestations from the first stratum, 30-60 CE

See http://wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php/015_Against_Divorce

Mark 10: 6-12-

"But from the beginning of creation, 'God made them male and female.' /7/ 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, /8/ and the two shall become one flesh.' So they are no longer two, but one flesh. /9/ Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate." /10/ Then in the house the disciples asked him again about this matter. /11/ He said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her; /12/ and if she divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery."

Does anyone appreciate his service or her grace. May be some of us be homeless. pension less or killed but for him. Can we leave them in peace?

Why is it we seem to forget that we're setting examples for our daughters and all other young women when we allow these events to continue to happen to us. They follow our leads later in life when faced with similar situations.
We should be smarter,& stronger with so many advantages now. This is 2008.

Why is it we seem to forget that we're setting examples for our daughters and all other young women when we allow these events to continue to happen to us. They follow our leads later in life when faced with similar situations.
We should be smarter,& stronger with so many advantages now. This is 2008.

A clear example of male hubris. The point is: Spitzer prosecuted and persecuted people for their illegal actions, then acted illegally himself in the same way, a court officer becomes a scofflaw and leaves himself open for the obvious: blackmail. Leave him to his family, poor things, but but treat him legally like he treated the others.
And as for Bush the War Criminal, another example of male hubris. May he get lost in Baghdad on one of his bogus victory trips and never be heard of again.

Athena, the Goddess of wisdom, is correct, of course"
Spitzer's behavior has been prevalent throughout history: powerful men hiring sexual "helpers", whether they be Kings or Potentates or Popes. The sexual drive that enables the continuation of the species is a force that has always been abused by people with the power to abuse it: often Just-plain-men, and ALWAYS Powerful Men.

2. The Unhealthy attitude towards sexuality characteristic of MOSt religions and religious moralizers actually makes this problem worse by Fetishizing sexuality, rather than treating it as a normal, if volatile, part of human nature.

3. Societies that are more sexually repressive (Moral in the columnist's view) have much higher rates of Spousal abuse, homicide, and gender inequality.

We could go on and on.

Mr Spitzer's infidelity lied us into war. As a result, tens of thousands of Iraqis and nearly 4,000 American soldiers lie dead. Tens of thousands more have been maimed for life. In addition, Spitzer's actions have ruined America's standing in the world while his economic policies have our country in recession, fueled by corporate greed and the mortgage crisis.

In America, people in power who cause such things are held to account, and swiftly. The proof is his immediate resignation. This isn't some small crime like...lying. This is a major crime with major consequences.

Too bad Eliot Spitzer couldn't be more like our wonderful president, gw bush. His 7 years in office have been like paradise on earth for us. Had bush done anything even approaching the seriousness of Spitzer's "crime," he would have been sent packing just as quickly.

One need look only at our ability to parse the difference between the wonders of bush and the horribleness of Spitzer to see confirmation of our self-confessed sense of basic fairness and our penchant for common sense.

[sarcasm off]

Men with power and authority have ALWAYS had courtesans, geishas, multiple wives, mistresses, concubines, etc. It's part of the "alpha male" mindset. You're the leader of the pack, so you're entitled to mate with all of the females in the pack. What gets me is not the sex, but the hypocrisy and blatant stupidity. It was almost like he WANTED to get caught getting his freak on.

So, it appear that many people believe that "the end justifies the means". Situation ethics? Or just lust, power and greed?

You're wrong. Mr. Mark. In fact the evidence is that AIDs has devastated the ranks of pornstars. And other STD's are common place. Even if condoms only had a 1% failure rate, (it's actually much higher) you'd risk exposure every hundredth time meaning the more sexually active you are the more likely you are to contract an STD.

STD' rates in Europe are on par with those in America according to WHO. Those who say that STD rates are rising faster in rural America than in the big cities are lying with statistic.

How so? You have one AIDS patient in a small town you get one additional case and voila your rate of increase is 100% the same one patient in say New York where you have 10,000+ case would scarcely move the percentage bar.

I agree that like Bill Clinton, who should have know not to be so VERY stupid and let his other head do the thinking...Spizer needs punished for being dumb.

I mean the Republicans were out to ruin Clinton..and he handed then the cannon. Spizer made himself out to be the Dragonslayer of Wall street, stepping not just on toes but heads..and he thought no one would pay attention to him boinking a 22 year old call girl?

all I can do is shake my head at the fools.
terra

It is always nice to watch someone spin a woman's personal sorrow and embarrassment into a Betty Friedan tract.

This is vapid prose:

"All I could think of, watching Silda Spitzer’s defeated expression, was of Taliban women covered from head to toe in burqa..."

"For young girls, it says this is an acceptable role for women -- to be lied to, cheated on, disrespected and humiliated in public..."

These sentences are sloppy, lazy hyperbole.

The public shame Spitzer is enduring makes it quite clear, I think, that as a society we believe it is NOT okay to lie to and cheat on one's wife (especially, ahem, with hookers).

I refuse to comment on the insipid Taliban analogy.

Personally, I respect Silda Spitzer's decision to stand beside her (loathsome) husband during the most difficult and humiliating moment of his life. It reflects her strength, not weakness.

Moreover, I refuse to judge a woman trying to make sense of things and operate during such a trial.

I am not as harsh as a judge as Ms. Quinn; perhaps she is more virtuous than I.

As Chesteron said: “For children are innocent and love justice, while most of us are wicked and naturally prefer mercy.”

I do not belong to the "sex is dirty" mindset that, amazingly, seems to be resurfacing today, where most anything sexual is some ridiculous "sin against God."

However, Spitzer's lack of foresight was as incredible as that of Bill Clinton. How is it possible that such people -- knowing full well that their every move is scrutinized intensely by their political enemies in the media -- nevertheless proceed to do such stupid things as this? Inconceivable!!!

http://churchstatewall.typepad.com

Dave,
"It's certainly no less an abomination than the homosexuality our secular culture seems quite willing to cram that down our throats at every opportunity.

Respectfully."

Now Dave, exactly where is the respect here? You can say that what Mr. Spizer does is between him and his wife...it is private. But then go on to speak very hatefully about another private matter.

Double standard, One for the Hetros and one for the Homos? Umm what is that called...?

terra

"Garyd sez

Mr. Mark STDs aren't enough of a plague already?"

Unless I'm wrong, STD's aren't such a problem in the sex industry, ie: porn and places like Nevada and Holland where prostitution is legal. The workers in the trade are checked regularly, and contracting an STD means you're out of work, at least temporarily.

This is most likely another red herring offered by those who live in glass houses...like the Baptists who scream about the sanctity of marriage while themselves divorcing at the highest rates in the country, most often because of an infidelity.

If you have stats from a reputable source to prove me wrong, I'd appreciate seeing them.

Mr. Mark STDs aren't enough of a plague already?

Hmmm, what was Mr. Spitzer's biggest mistake??

He did not become a Muslim. Had he, he could have declared his call girls his other wives and been above the law at least in the Islamic world.

Mr. Spizer put himself up as a the finger of justice. He went after those who broke the law...just the same as he did. His sexual proclivity or appitite and who he shares them with is between him and his wife. He made an oath to her and to the people of the state of New York, and broke that oath.

He broke laws. Laws that were broken by others that he put in jail. His worse "sin" was oath breaking. No matter what you think of the laws...he made an oath to protect the laws of the state. Just like Bush made an oath to protect the constitution of the United States, then he proceded to bend, fold and mutilate.

I do not think Spitzer should go to prison, unless he used state funds for his trysts, or used his protection to cover his meetings with the call girl. This is more a moral problem, as most Johns are not put in prison for bringing adult women over state lines...when the women is traveling by her own choice. He should not be prosecuted for what others aren't.

Take away his right to hold public office again, take away his right to practice law...that should be enough, unless he has broken other laws.

terra

Gary D
"would have been sexual harassment and violated
several state and federal laws"

Which state and federal laws ban consensual m/f relations between consenting adults?

Sexual harassment? not necessarily...

Private matters should be exactly that, private. Life under the microscope of public scrutiny is fraught with personal sphere invasion issues and many of us would not stand the scrutiny of such a microscopic inspection of our mores. I view a separation of private and public life to be the right of a public servant.

If a state college allows sex offenders to continue to work what's so wrong with Mr. Spitzer's behavior vis a vis something legal in some areas but not others; as long as he paid with his own funds.

If he was doing a good job otherwise his personal moral compass is between him and his spirituality and just because some frumpy judgmental person chooses to engage in meddling I prefer to refrain from judgment -- which isn't mine anyway.

My personal discernment could really give a rip as to what the man does in his personal life. It's certainly no less an abomination than the homosexuality our secular culture seems quite willing to cram that down our throats at every opportunity.

Respectfully.

Perhaps it says that we should seriously consider decriminalizing prostitution in this country, even if one of the by-products of doing so would have been to slow Gov Spitzer's political rise. Who knows if he would have been elected governor minus those prostitution prosecution scalps hanging from his belt?

Boinking his office manager would have been sexual harassment and violated several state and federal laws even if she were a willing participant.

Private matters should be exactly that, private. Life under the microscope of public scrutiny is fraught with personal sphere invasion issues and many of us would not stand the scrutiny of such a microscopic inspection of our mores. I view a separation of private and public life to be the right of a public servant.

If a state college allows sex offenders to continue to work what's so wrong with Mr. Spitzer's behavior vis a vis something legal in some areas but not others; as long as he paid with his own funds.

If he was doing a good job otherwise his personal moral compass is between him and his spirituality and just because some frumpy judgmental person chooses to engage in meddling I prefer to refrain from judgment -- which isn't mine anyway.

My personal discernment could really give a rip as to what the man does in his personal life. It's certainly no less an abomination than the homosexuality our secular culture seems quite willing to cram that down our throats at every opportunity.

Respectfully.

Private matters should be exactly that, private. Life under the microscope of public scrutiny is fraught with personal sphere invasion issues and many of us would not stand the scrutiny of such a microscopic inspection of our mores. I view a separation of private and public life to be the right of a public servant.

If a state college allows sex offenders to continue to work what's so wrong with Mr. Spitzer's behavior vis a vis something legal in some areas but not others; as long as he paid with his own funds.

If he was doing a good job otherwise his personal moral compass is between him and his spirituality and just because some frumpy judgmental person chooses to engage in meddling I prefer to refrain from judgment -- which isn't mine anyway.

My personal discernment could really give a rip as to what the man does in his personal life. It's certainly no less an abomination than the homosexuality our secular culture seems quite willing to cram that down our throats at every opportunity.

Respectfully.

Hunt:
"This is a personal problem between Mr. Spitzer and his wife."

Not exactly.... morally I agree, but he apparently broke several laws on the way.... had he just boinked his office manager, that would be simply between him and the wife, no laws broken.... Perhaps the Mann act should be ignored/ eliminated, perhaps prostitution should be legal... however they are not.
Mr. Spitzer can not claim he was unaware of these laws.
If you choose a career of standing in the spotlight, you are a fool to think you will not be seen.

Possum Purity has nothing to do with it. Lying is the problem. Duplicity is the problem. Consorting with prostitutes just started the ball rolling.

Spitzer and the rest of the moral crusaders have the rest of us laughing our arses off. They deserve to lose their jobs, freedom, and families, not for their sexual behavior but for their hypocrisy and idiocy. Trying to legislate private morality is a losing battle, whether through religion or politics. The more these cretins battle against normal sexual desires the more we have to wonder whether they're really projecting the battle of their own impulses onto other people. As the bard said "Methinks they dost protest too much."

It is my understanding that Mr. Spitzer has done a lot of good for NY. He may be a hypocrite but so are Vitter and Craig. I'm sure there are a lot of hypocrites in our government. There are probably more in the "Family Values" party.
The man act was passed before women were allowed to vote. It should not be a consideration. This is a personal problem between Mr. Spitzer and his wife. She should not have to listen to all of this. She has been through enough. I am sick of hearing about it.
SOMEONE went after Mr. Vitter because he was stepping on the "big boys" toes. No wonder we can't get anything done. Politics is like living in a mine field.

It is my understanding that Mr. Spitzer has done a lot of good for NY. He may be a hypocrite but so are Vitter and Craig. I'm sure there are a lot of hypocrites in our government. There are probably more in the "Family Values" party.
The man act was passed before women were allowed to vote. It should not be a consideration. This is a personal problem between Mr. Spitzer and his wife. She should not have to listen to all of this. She has been through enough. I am sick of hearing about it.
SOMEONE went after Mr. Vitter because he was stepping on the "big boys" toes. No wonder we can't get anything done. Politics is like living in a mine field.

Kerusso, what a true and lovely post.

I thank you for writing it; it took courage to speak against the "grain" of accepted normal practice for sexual immorality.

Frankly, I don't know how the prostitute can sleep at night knowing that she gave her body over to sex for money, committed adultery, severed the trust in a marriage, and tore apart a home that was sanctified by the union bond of marriage, forever brandished the children as having a father that had sex with a prostitute, lies, falsified his position as a politician, and had no regard or respect for the future reputation of his family.

I do detest people that commit actions like her and if I were God would spare her no mercy..........so it is a good thing that I am not God.

Has this Hyprocite nation forgoten what ELLIOT SPITZER has done for NY and the world, by exposing corrupt SOB CEO's, mutual fund thieves who were milking the poor guys, wall street bottom-top level crooks who were making sure to make an illegal buck on the side and making investors suffer while a few made millions. They ALL must be visiting prostitutes and having affairs and taking drugs but they have not been caught yet, because they are nobodies. They are not Harvard Grad Govenors. Have the forgotten how Spitzer got rid of the gambino families organized crime grip on the garment district, trucking, etc. NY lost a GREAT MAN called ELLIOT SPTIZER...we will miss you sir. I applaud you and GOD BLESS YOU, hope to see you soon kicking the butts of all the people who are mocking you now. I dont know one married guy who does not mess around on his wife, go to bachlor parties get drunk and mess around with the strippers, have affairs, watch porn and visit prostitutes. The hypocracy is not with you SIR, it is with the world. YOU DID NOTHING WRONG, only wrong was not to allow these people to do to you what they are doing now. You are too smart to allow this to happen, that is the only thing bothering me ELLIOT, how did you allow the fed and irs and the other corrupt republicans to get you like this. GET THEM BACK with a vengance not seen by this world. Make revenge your ultimate goal the liks not even seen by god. I salute you sir, this is not goodbye but only "Until We See You Again" BTW, I dont think most people know you are worth 100's of millions of dollars more than 99.9% of the all the low life poor good for nothing new yorkers that are against you, more than those 75K/year fed and irs low lifes. More than those corrupt republicans. TAKE CARE...

"What does the Elliot Spitzer scandal say about our public and private morality?"

Maybe that morality is in fact relative after all?
GaryD:
"Put simply if a man's own wife can't trust him how can anyone else? Why should anyone else?"

Only the pure are to be trusted? Hmmmm, I guess I'm out then... you?

I don't like the new comment system where new comments post on top...so reposting this from Ms. Muburak's thread:

God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, for this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. – Romans 1:25-27

Soon to be Dr. Muburak hit this one on the head. America, the West, and the World, have once again been given over to their sexual desires. It happened in Rome, it happened in Corinth, Paris, Milan, it happened in the first century, it happened in the fourteenth century, it happened in the seventeenth century, it’s happening today.

We shouldn’t be surprised in the least that Spitzer fell, nor that he got caught, nor that he is being publicly stoned. In the United States, we ascribe to haughtiness. Almost every person will proclaim their own goodness. We do this partly by saying,

“I haven’t killed anyone.”
“I’m not Adolf Hitler”
“At least I didn’t misappropriate government funds for a prostitute.”
“I must be a good person because there are plenty of people worse than me.”

Do you fall into one of these categories? Beloved, you won’t be judged against Hitler, Spitzer, or your neighbor, you will be judged against Jesus Christ, against perfection. Your conscience bears witness against you that you have fallen woefully short. Have you ever misappropriated government funds for your own sexual gratification? You know that is wrong, but listen to what Jesus said, he said, “Whosoever looks upon a woman to lust after her has committed adultery already with her in their heart.” Have you ever done that? Did you know that the sexually immoral have no inheritance in the kingdom of God?

Job made a covenant with his eyes, that he shouldn’t look upon a woman that wasn’t his spouse, and he also promised not to lead himself into temptation by coming near to sexual perversion. I highly suggest you do the same, starting today. Your marriage will be better, whether current or future, you will develop a higher understanding of the equality and complimentary roll of women and men, and you will never find yourself in front of television cameras for following your most debase desires.

But even if you were perfect from today, you will have to give an account for your prior transgression. God is perfectly holy and will not by any means clear the guilty. There is no statute of limitations in the kingdom of God. Whether you committed your sin five decades ago or five seconds ago, the past does not heal these wounds, and you will be punished. On the day that every deed done in darkness is brought to the light, every thought is exposed, every idle word requires an account, how will you plead? Will you say you didn’t know or you weren’t warned? This is your warning, and you did know, because your conscience bears witness to the law and records your wrong-doing.
On Judgment Day you will be found guilty, and the eternal fine is Hell. But God doesn’t want you to go to Hell, so much so that he sacrificed his only begotten Son in your place. Jesus Christ, the eternal Son of God became your sin on the cross at Calvary and God poured his infinite wrath out upon him, and it please God to do it, because he truly hates sin, and through the suffering death of Jesus Christ, you can be forgiven.

The eternal Son of God became your sin on the cross at Calvary and God poured his infinite wrath out upon him, and it pleased God to do it, because he truly hates sin, and through the suffering death of Jesus Christ, you can be forgiven.

God demands that you repent, whether you are Spitzer, or just someone addicted to pornography, or if you’ve ever looked at a beautiful person with anything less than a pure motive, you must repent, or you will perish. Turn from your sin and turn towards the God of Salvation who made a way for you and Elliot Spitzer to be forgiven in Jesus Christ.

God accused the church of Corinth of being sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, homosexuals, thieves, usurpers, drunkards, revilers, swindlers. He said that they should not inherit the kingdom of God. But then, applying the blood of Christ to their sins, he said, “such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Holy Spirit.”

Beloved, I implore you, be reconciled to God.

Mr. Spitzer chose to lie to his wife, cheat on her, and put her health as well as his own at risk. Not only that but he went about it in a fashion that all but guaranteed he'd be caught.

Put simply if a man's own wife can't trust him how can anyone else? Why should anyone else?

His resignation was the only thing he did right in this whole nasty business.