Readers’ Responses to Our Question (108)

May Allah guide us all to the right path, Ameen!

Mut'a initially was allowed for very very short period in the beginning of Islam when people were newly reverting. To have open lawful relation and not the secret, lying, manipulated hidden one (adultery & fornication). But later VERY SOON FORBIDDEN CLEARLY as mentioned in on record Sahi Hadiths.

In Shia sect it is still accepted by very small number of "Mujtahidins".

It is important to mention that how Shia sect came into being and what is the difference between main stream Muslims and Shia Muslims.

Shia sect was founded by Abdullah bin Saba (a Jewish convert hypocrite). ( Like Molis in Christianity).

His points of propagations were:

1- Only Hazrat Ali (r.a) was the rightful Caliph and Imam of Muslim Ummah and not the first 3 Caliphs. Because he was the direct descendent of Prophets Family. There Grandfather was same and he married to Prophets daughter. And variously quoted hadith, "Prophet (PBUH) said, I'm Knowledge and Ali (r.a) is gate to the knowledge".
2- The Imamat and Chilapht will only be transferred to Prophets Family as in case of previous prophets.

Due to his evil propagation against teachings of Islam, first he was expelled from the city by the Governor of Baghdad, and then expelled form Basra. And then he hide and settled in the city of Kofa and made it his center of activities.

Clearly he was propagating against the teachings of Islam and Prophet (PBUH). EVEN HAZRAT ALI (r.a) HIMSELF WHEN HE BECAME CALIPH ORDERED HIS DEATH, BECAUSE HE WAS CREATED "FITNA" AMONG MUSLIMS.

But main stream Muslims always respected Shia’s because the foundation and BASIC RELIGION IS SAME THAT IS BASED ON “QUR’AN AND SUNNAH ONLY”.

AS EVERY MUSLIM KNOWS :
–i- Ijtahad, -ii- Fiqah –iii- Tafseer –iv- Sharia (Islamic Law) etc ARE NOT RELIGION.
THEY ARE ONLY EXPLATIONS AND ELOBORATIONS. AND AT ANY TIME IF PROVEN CONTRADICTING TO RELIGION CAN BECOME NULL AND VOID.

The main stream Muslims always refuted Shia’s by quoting following:

- If previous 3 Caliph’s were not right then Hazrat Ali (r.a.) had never taken “Baat” on them (Voted in their favor himself, even after few days in case of first Caliph). As ALL Prophets and even rightful disciples or people never bowed in front of falsehood or lie. Hazrat Ali’s (r.a.) baat it self is proving MAIN SHIA BELIEVE WRONG. Because after Prophet (PBUH) Shia’s believes in Ali (r.a.).
- In the absence of Prophet (PBUH), Hazrat Abu Bakar (r.a) first Caliph use to take the place of Imamat in Namaz (prayer). Once somebody else tried but Prophet (PBUH) stopped the person and according to Sahi Hadith said after me Abu Bakar (r.a.) is the only rightful person for Amamat.
- Prophet (PBUH) also said about second Caliph- Sahi Hadith, “I’m the seal of Prophet’s, none after me will be coming, but if there could any, it would be Omer (r.a)”.

SURLY Abdullah Bin Saba (the Jew convert) was a HYPOCRATE who introduced Shia Sect among Muslims and also introduced and continued so many other forbidden practices in Shia’s like Mut’a.

I say we move on to a much more interesting subject such as this Obama and his pastor controversy! Oh, I almost forgot. The liberal, far left sites such as washingtonpost want to hide one of the most important issues that the world needs to hear about...that being the truth about Obama. But Obama is the liberals buddy, and they won't dare touch him. God help us!!!

GaryD,

Tell us please that you do not believe in the A&E myth!!!! Even Catholic schools teach that the story is mythical.

What does the Eliot Spitzer scandal say about our public and private morality? Should he have resigned?

Do I detect a pattern here? And what of power relationships as the Democratic party gains more power? What of power relationships in places such as Europe which have become more socialistic (but not so socialistic as to become far left and therefore resemble far right in power structure)?

We notice that in the U.S. prominent Democrats seem more often than prominent right-wingers to be guilty of the sin of philandering--and this is often excused along the lines of "at least "he" was not a corrupt businessman or invading Iraq or--". In short it seems as we become more Democratic and attack certain forms of immorality we become susceptible to others and it may be this is inevitable due to forms power must take if not being allowed to structure along the lines of other forms.

If a Democratic candidate is for universal healthcare, full employment, for women's rights, for minority rights,--what power is allowed a man in such a world? What form will the power of men take? It seems the common trend is for men to become philanderers, to insert cigars into vaginas, to procure as expensive as possible call girls--or simply as in Europe to have the best mistresses.

In the U.S. today it seems we have a war between two moralities. We have right wing actions cloaked by religion--God, guns and country and free markets--and on the left we have a relentless critique of such but a breakdown of morality--or more accurately, society--in the direction of a looseness of sexual behavior as other forms of immorality are being criticized. The question is can we reform one form of immorality while being susceptible and in fact succumbing to another. What do minority rights matter if this power results simultaneously in fathers not sticking around to raise children?

What we have is not a question between public and private morality but a turning over of one form of public morality and in exposing its underside becoming susceptible to other forms of immorality--or rather the philandering of men has always existed and the question is in overturning forms of "morality" (revealing undersides) we are making progress on morality or just sinking deeper into immorality, even if such immorality now just takes the shape of philandering men.

An interesting question this one and one of danger for the Democratic party. Obviously Republicans will keep a sharp eye out for the forms immorality will take if "Republican forms" of immorality are not allowed to exist according to Democrats. Power flows into channels, and obviously we would like people to flow into higher channels--sublimate, I believe is the word--but just as obviously we can expect one form of immorality to erupt into another as quickly as we extirpate the first,--that is just common sense.

I would like to read a book which anticipates future power relationships in Democratic societies so we know the forms immorality will take not to mention future forms of morality or behaviors of men. The Eliot Spitzer example is certainly one of attacking certain forms of immorality and tipping over violently into another form which however is the form likely to be excused by one of our political parties, the Democratic. Certainly in a Democratic society there should be no such tippings but rather developments into higher forms of society.

Holimoses When did God tell Eve not to eat?. He Told Adam before Eve's creation.

At least if Spitzer were a muslim he'd have had to abide by some rules and obtain a temporary marriage and be upfront about it. Even Oriana Fallaci had to pay the bribe to obtain a temporary marriage in order to conduct her interviews back in the 70s.

In the literal sense, Spitzer's behavior was simply a crime. There are laws against prostitution and consuming the services of prostitutes. It is by no means a private matter.

In the larger sense, if prostitution were decriminalized as it should be, he is still unfit to be governor because he is a psychological trainwreck. Untrustworthy even in his most fundamental relationships.

Even if his wife knew or was ok with his behavior, the fact that he hid it meant he thought it was contrary to acceptable behavioral standards of his office. Conduct unbecoming a governor. He can leave office, but is not a criminal. And he's still a mental trainwreck.

Where he has committed real crimes is in his transactions. Follow the money. It will reveal the depth of his corruption.

--FIUS

http://www.al-islam.org/al-serat/muta/

The Arabic dictionaries define mut'a as 'enjoyment, pleasure, delight'. The root form, m-t: signifies, 'to carry away, to take away'. A 'marriage of mut'a' is a marriage which the contract stipulates will last for a fixed period of time. This 'marriage of mut'a' is referred to both in the hadith literature and, in much more detail, in the books on jurisprudence (fiqh). In the hadith and in other sayings related from early Muslims the word 'mut'a' itself is usually employed. The Shi'is hold that this particular term is the preferred name for temporary marriage because the Qur'an itself refers to this kind of marriage employing a term derived from the same root. In the following verse, the word istimta', the tenth verbal form of the root m-t-', is translated as 'enjoy': 'So those of them [women] whom you enjoy, give to them their appointed wages' (4:24).

Oh there Obfuscating Jihadist,

And the "obfusing" continues as you still have not addressed the flaws/errors of Islam.

And I am sure the Pope's "right and left" handers are well aware of "Crossanized" Catholicism so there is no need to remind him of it again. And you really think he would even "entertain" a move to the truth? Such a move would be the catalyst for the needed reform to reality, i.e. the "pink slipping" of the all-male priesthood.

And you noted: "Do I want to be a Crossanhized Christian? No."- We understand. A "Crossanized" Muslim would suffice. Just think what a "Crossanized", deflawed Islam would bring to the world i.e. Peace and Reality!!!!!

Once again for those that have not seen the first four major flaws/errors of Islam:

1. Belief in "pretty/ugly wingie thingies".

2. Belief that an hallucinating, illiterate Arab did actually talk to the "pretty Gabriel" in the hot "Gabe" cave and therein received the warmongering and anti-female words and resultant laws now listed in the koran.

3. That Sunnis are superior to Shiites in all aspects of life. And Shiites think the same way about Sunnis.

4. That Islam is perfect and the koran inherently condones no sin even though the 24/7, 800 year-old blood feud between Sunnis and Shiites gives significant credence that greed, hate, suicides, assassinations, maiming, and murder are condoned by the koran. Having multiple wives also gives significant credence to the sins of rape, adultery, lust and polygamy. The condoned treatment of these wives gives credence that the koran allows the sins of hatred, anger and greed.

CTCNL : And indeed until that changes, no one is safe based on the dictates of your warmongering and lusting, slave-owning founder!! He makes Eliot Spitzer look like a pretty wingie thingie!!!

The Prophet is not God, did say he is, nor do anyone.

Spitzer is not God, but he may have thought he was.

Amazing is it not, Jesus PBUH taught about love and still peace-loving, forgiving, repenting, turning the other cheek Christians do wage war till today?

How goes the Crossanization of Americans before the Pope goes to the US on 15 April 2008?

Don't forget to ask the Pope what is in the Vatican's secret achives. Inquiring minds wants to know.

And don't forget to submit your conclusions on the Bible as you posted in On Faith threads for the Pope's consideration.

His Holiness may agree on what you said on Islam, Muslims and the Prophet, but I am really certain he would not agree on what you said on Jesus PBUH.

His Holiness calls for "reason in faith." Unfortunately, the Pope never said to be reasonable in discussing reason, faith, or reason in faith.

Do I want to be a Crossanhized Christian? No.

Take is easy pussycat. Recession. Inflation.

Jihadist - the unrepentent, unapologetic, extremist, fundamentalist Muslim. :)

Oh there "Reality Challenged", Malaysian Deflawer, and Obfuscating Jihadist,

You classified yourself as the "unrepentent and unapologetic" Muslim. And indeed until that changes, no one is safe based on the dictates of your warmongering and lusting, slave-owning founder!! He makes Eliot Spitzer look like a pretty wingie thingie!!!

Concerned the Christian Now Liberated: "Maybe a nuke on the Vatican would wake up the flawed Catholics (something recommended by the nut jobs in Iran? )!!! Now do you feel better?"

Nuke the Vatican? Are you a Catholic of Reality and Crosssanized Christian nut? The Sistine Chapel is there. So is the Vatican's secret archives. I would would love to get my hands on those.

Excuse me. Our new Cabinet line-up was just announced. More important.

No nuke is good nuke.
Ban the bomb.

J - the unrepentent and unapologetic Muslim.
So there.

Oh there "Reality Challenged", "Malaysian Deflawer, and Obfuscating Jihadist,

Maybe a nuke on the Vatican would wake up the flawed Catholics (something recommended by the nut jobs in Iran? )!!! Now do you feel better?

And you are not abused, you simply suffer from being Bred, Born and Brainwashed in a very flawed Islam just like many of us were 3 B'd in Christianity. There is a quick cure and you have been sent the antidote many times.

If Eliot was black and republican this would attack on human nature would have never materialized. No one is saying he should't resign. He did! He is paid up in full for "the measure you give is the measure get". When will the cocroaches of the world their just adoo!!!!

If Eliot was black and republican this would attack on human nature would have never materialized. No one is saying he should't resign. He did! He is paid up in full for "the measure you give is the measure get". When will the cocroaches of the world their just adoo!!!!

If Eliot was black and republican this would attack on human nature would have never materialized. No one is saying he should't resign. He did! He is paid up in full for "the measure you give is the measure get". When will the cocroaches of the world their just adoo!!!!

America is the most permissive society in the world yet it demands high standards of those who are elected in public office: standards which they do not wish to be applied to themselves.

Hypocrisy leads to chaos. What's good for the goose surely is good for the gander.

The other thing is that American office holders can be hauled over the coal for sexual misdemeanors but literally get away with murder for corruption, lying and taking the country to wars based upon lies, thus killing thousands, both Americans and foreigners with total impunity. They have a free reign on creating enemies where enemies do no exist, yet no American takes issue with any of that. Dick Cheney gets away with murder, lies and conflict of interest yet poor Clinton nearly gets impeached for not keeping his trousers zipped up.

You are a funny lot. Killing and lying is fine but sex is a no no. I guess nationalism is the refuge of the scoundrel and getting caught with your trousers down is not good for American national pride but hey Brit Spears has immunity. We, the American public decide on who gets immunity.

Hello Gaby,

I just realised WaPo On Faith blog managers reversed the order of posts coming in for all threads from the latest being the last entry, to now the latest being on top of the threads.

I also noticed that others complained too, re their posts dissapearing from the threads and they wondering why too. And now On Faith has this red coloured statements in all threads asking to allow for two or three minutes for posts to come on.

Maybe it is a technical glitch, maybe it is not. But, hey, must register the protest anyway - on technical grounds, on censorship grounds any which way I can. Huffing and puffing.:)

Thanks and best regards

"J"

Oh, I see what you mean now, Jihadist!

I scrolled down further and indeed on of your posts has disappeared. Hmmm, do you really think is the WAPO editors or the inapt handling of this site???

I have noticed that they are trying to make changes and they are not very successful. If our webmaster was as incapable as the one who oversees this site, he would have been fired long ago.

Dear Jihadist,

What is going on???? What has disappeared? Did you post something else?

Bye the way, I was curious as to your reply to my reply...LOL

As far as Anonymous is concerned, I think he was speaking to me cause I called him an a*hole reply to a previous post where he tried (in my humble opinion) to malign my family. I do not take kindly to that.

Also, I think my daughter's views are more closely aligned with yours....when I told her about our online conversation she agreed with you and told me I need to reconsider.

Maybe it's because we grew up in different worlds.

Anyway, always like to see you post.

G

.....and hell hath known no fury like a woman whose post is scorned and deleted. An itsy bitsy teeny weeny fury, more of a self-stirred storm in a teacup in reaction.

What is this? Some posters telling me I am abused as a Muslim woman, exploited as a Muslim woman, degraded as a Muslim woman, brainswashed as a Muslim etc and then being abusive to me in posts, which no Muslim men ever did in real life or in Muslim blogs, and now asked for my post to be deleted?

Want me to say what you want to hear? I am not your subordinate. Clear up your minds then - on what are the parameters and bechmarks on what is offensive, what is free speech, and what is fighting words.

Interesting thing. Not a single four letter word there if I can recall correctly. Nor any insults against any religions or non-belief. Only questioning questions. Was it provocative questions?

I want the same freedom as Ann Coulter. I am shocked and dismayed my freedom of speech, freedom of thought, freedom of expression is censored. I am a voice in the wilderness. I am a voiceless voice. I am, er, who was that Voltaire and what was it he said? Something about not agreeing with someone but defending his right to the death to say it and such. Is that really true? Or don't apply to people who can't have and don't have democracies.

Quite amusing to realise that one's post is deleted.

What is this? Has one of my posts dissappeared because it it offensive to some? Or am I imagining it was posted by me and made to dissapear by On Faith managers?

Imagine that. I have never complained about anyone's offensive posts and asked them to be deleted even if there are too many such ones on Islam and Muslims, including those calling for Mecca to be nuked that is offensive. Not even posts calling me a terrorist. What gives.

Can't stand a Muslim talkbalk on insults and offensive comments on Islam and Muslims? Better a talkback rather than asking for censoring and deletion of comments.

My. Free speech indeed. Only for you to think and say anything you want and that is is your right to do so, but not my right of reply in any way I chose when and if I want to?

Concerned the Christian Now Liberated:)

Oh pussycat! Yeah, all Muslim men have four wives. Count them. Four! Eat your heart out. Oh, don't be prudish. Do I smell envy of Muslim men couched in saying Muslim women are prostitutes in polygamy?

Yeah well, Muslim men are more politically seized than sexually obsessed. Even with polygamy allowed for them, the majority of Muslim men are monogamous.

Of course, unlike in the west, some rich Muslim men have trophy wives -discarding their first wife for a sweet young thing to drape on their arms and to show off.

Some rich Muslim men also do have several wives through polygamous marraiges as a show of their ability to multiple throphy wives.

Unfortunately, this is more common in the Arab Muslim world than in the non-Arab Muslim world. I have no idea what is wrong with non-Arab Muslim men.

Anonymous : "Let's call it a day shall we and leave things to perish. There is no point in this anymore."

Until another public official is caught with a prostitute and create a public huffing and puffing again on hypocrisy, ethics, values etc and I'm happy to be a righteous religionist on it. Never mind I can't remember if prostitution is the world's oldest or second oldest profession anymore.

But how we regard prostitutes, why they have a market and how we react to them, from for holy or spiritual purposes to now as legitimate and illegimate pleasure providers as a business, it is telling of how we rationalised them over the ages.

On this, I do agree with Concerned the Christian Now Liberated's cheeky proposal - that Spitzer should become a Muslim so he can have up to four wives and don't have to resort to such stealty behavior. He do have the time, the financial and physical means to do so. And, perhaps, the public and his wife would prefer him being open about him having more than one wife rather than skulking around with a mistress or a prostitute.

Perhaps, if Spitzer is really not into long term committed relationship, we can reactivate back mut'a (temporary marraiges) just for him for the period of time both sides agreed to. This form of temporary marraiges (mut'a) while legal and advocated by some Muslim ulema, is objected to by most others as a form of legalised prostitution. This debate is still going on on mut'a in some Muslim countries.

Perhaps if that is not appealing enough for Spitzer, and as he now resigned from public office, we can ship him off to Amsterdam or Bangkok where he can have all the sex he can pay for. The cost of living in Bangkok is cheaper than in Amsterdam, so more mileage for Spitzer's dollars in for the business transactions with these professional ladies of the night who are providing a much needed service for the health and well-being of man.

Seems to still be so much hypocrisy in some monogamous marraiges, and there are some proposals for non-jealous open marraiges and such to address man's nature and natural urges. Polygamy is not bad after all, then. Better to be a wife than a mistress, or to have a husband gallivanting with prostitutes and have less than safe sex. One also has legal rights as a wife in a polygamous marraige, and at least men won't have to lie.

Polygamy is not such a great problem as divorces between monogamous couples - for alimony and for child support for the simple fact that over 90% of Muslim marraiges are monogomous. Polygamy is one of the solutions and not perfect in its implementation. Muslim men seem to prefer being serial monogamists rather than polygamists.

Yes, we all know that some, many? men can never keep their pants on, so the issue is not men taking on other wives, but that he must be able to provide for all wives and the children that resulted equally and fairly.

This is balancing the reality of man's difficult to control and should never be restrained sexual activities and needs for their mental health (so they asserted) with some responsibility. Of course men don't like it. And of course, even some Muslim ulema, in jurisprudence, are most partial to men on these matters of marraiges and divorce. Like all men in the world, they do need gender sensitisation too.

Man is born free, has free will, yet everywhere women wants them to be responsible and can be trusted. Darn us spoilsport women. We just won't let fellows who just want to have fun and leave a mess afterwards.

So, Anonymous, why let it perish? Sexism never do. Even in marraiges. Even in sex. Even in adultery. That is the point.

Let's call it a day shall we and leave things to perish. There is no point in this anymore.

10:03, You are incorrigible sometimes. Must you keep this up?

Is there any end to what you will do to keep this going? What? What? What?

jonny,
Thank you for pointing out that Mr Spitzers core spiritual beliefs were at the heart of his rule.
There truly is nothing new under the sun.

Oh, fer Pete's sake. Temples throughout the ages (including the Booble, old testament) had TEMPLE hookers, and when ya spent yer dough, it was HOLY.

WHAT?? It's different NOW? How? Why?

What a load.

Mr Mark: "Mr Spitzer's infidelity lied us into war. As a result, tens of thousands of Iraqis and nearly 4,000 American soldiers lie dead.....[sarcasm off]"

Good point, Mr Mark.

Spitzer's crime was insignificant in comparison, but unlike Bush's much greater crime, Spitzer's is a known and accepted crime, committed by many people, everyday. We can relate to it and thus, perhaps, are more likely to punish it.

Luke, "I guess what I'm saying is "Forgive, People of God, Forgive""
~~~~~~~~~

That is all you had to say. How can I not?

BTW did you know that the author of the gospel of Luke was a physican by trade? Just thought that you might like to know the history surrounding it knowing the history buff that you are. :~)

Although, if I had made this video I would have it end with a man with a lever, pushing bigger and bigger cameras until it all falls down on its own weight, as in a previous scene :).

How about using a 1984ish system designed to catch terrorists for mud-throwing and political purposes?
As far as I understood Spitzer was "caught" because of it.
How is that NOT evil, and what does it say about public morality? How is it NOT part of the whole story?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=T6c-umQ_hlc

(changed nickname from Aquarius)

- GaryD:

Your response indicated that they ate and then their eyes were opened. So Holimosses was addressing the issue of their eyes being 'opened' after 'scripture' had already stated their eyes were 'open' and they could discern beauty.

Now that you mention it, the rest of the verse states, (probably depending on the translation), '...gave some to her "husband" who was with her'...; since there were only the two, their eyes were not open, and they didn't know they were naked - how was it that Adam was identified as Eve's husband??

"The tale of Adam is our own...." Or did the writers believe that there was 'no one true God' so that they could create and 'diss' a "one true God" without fear of retribution????

Dear Jihadist,

Of course I don't condone trade in humans, tricking women into the trade of prostitution, etc.

I am talking about women who make a conscious choice to make their money that way. And you are absolutely right in your statement

"Paying for sex does gives the impression of personal disconnectedness with another human being, of treating sex as a normal bodily need with as much clinical detachment as having a foot message by a masseur."

In my opinion that is the beauty of it. No emotional connection, no longterm relationship, no worry for the wife that her husband will actually abondon her for "the other women".

That is what prostitution is all about. A business transaction between two adults (by the way, that also means when a woman visits a male prostitute) without any other commitment than sex for money.

Having grown up in Europe, my view is certainly colored differently than yours having grown up in Asia. Additionally, since I am not a religious book believer, I guess I have a more open view than those who follow the bible, koran, torah, etc.

As alway good hearing your views on things.

G

As humans, it seems we have two sets of instincts that influence us, that can guide us or which we can choose to follow.

The instincts of our animal nature (real and undeniable). And the impulses of our soul nature (our higher & nobler virtues and qualities).

The metaphorical war between the two within each one of us as individuals is the true understanding of Armageddon.

Spitzer's frailties in the matter are on display; all the rest of us struggle with our own version, just usually more privately.

I don't think any of us are superior to him; perhaps luckier, perhaps we wrestle with different failings, perhaps some of us have conquered through will or faith a few (but certainly not all) of our more destructive impulses.....whatever.

As humans we all struggle with our issues; we all have to figure out the road to inner peace ultimately on our own.

I don't excuse or defend at all what he did. And I have no doubt he is entering his own private hell regarding the consequences of his actions (sadly his wife and daughters entering their version, too).

Doesn't life teach us, also, at some point to not be too judgmental, to have a little compassion and understanding for the great work, the great process (including inevitable mis-steps) of growing and refining our character and behavior slowly over the years and decades of life?

Shouldn't we too take a time such as this to reflect a little on where we could correct an inadequacy in ourselves?

The three finger rule applies, not just to Spitzer but also to all the holier than him who take so much pleasure in condemning him. How does anyone know that they're not just trying to divert God's attention from their own "moral failures"? A road trip through the "Bible Belt" reveals that for every church there is a porn shop nearby.

Dogs are thieves, humans are liars. It got us to where we are today.

Hello Gaby,

Yes. Spitzer slept with a prostitute. No big deal for us perhaps, not our business, but certainly for his wife and family.

It would be a different reaction if the wife is caught with a gigolo. Do you really think men will say, "So what? It's no big deal"?

It is bad enough for a waitres in a diner to find out her husband is going to a prostitute.

I don't want to imagine what Mrs. Spitzer is going through knowing the whole world knows about Spitzer sleeping with and paying a prostitute US $ 2,000 for the pleasure, even here in Kuala Lumpur. We know about it as the local media can't resist picking up from US media on juicy scandals. It sells newspapers.

Statistics shows that America is not puritanical. Its pornography industry is the biggest in the world and the land originating Playboy, Penthouse, Hustler and such.

Yes, Germany and the Netherlands among others in Europe regulated its sex industry. The original intent was to contain STDs. Of course Europe has a history of its aristocrats having mistresses and courtesans (the nicer and classier term for ladies of the night).

And a French wife do expect and don't really raise eyebrows if and when their men have mistresses or go to the ladies of the night. Due to French Catholic history and heritage when divorce is, well, not quite acceptable. Only in the last century since was divorce easier.

I would not quite say prostitution is seen as a normal business transaction between two consenting adults in Europe. No self-respecting man, married or otherwise, really like others, especially his wife, girlfriend, partner, to know that they spent time with the ladies of the night. Even high class and expensive ones. They'd rather people know they have a mistress.

There is a great difference between sex between consenting adults for no money and in one where one partner pays.

Paying for sex does gives the impression of personal disconnectedness with another human being, of treating sex as a normal bodily need with as much clinical detachment as having a foot message by a masseur.

I agree with Viejita Del Oeste that women are expected to have higher self-standards on sex than men and men expect women to forgive and forget and not make a fuss over what they said is natural human nature, needs and wants and would quote studies of the animal kingdom of randy and footloose baboons to prove their point.

But then, we are not in the animal kingdom nor do any creature in the animal kingdom enacts laws on their rights. We do for them for their protection against their own extinction. And we are not protecting women but men's rights to do as they please and get away with it?

As for prostitution being voluntary, and thus not a crime as it is between consenting adults for services rendered, well, almost all in Asia would rather have another profession but were forced into it, tricked into it, or had to do it out of economic reasons as no other employment is available to them due to lack of appropriate education and skills. Or their husbands leaving them without financial support.

Making prostitution legal in Europe is one reason why there is an unceasing flow of trafficking of women from Asia and Eastern Europe/Russia to those countries. And most of these women were tricked into it. And we really don't want to go into Chinese Triads and Russian Mafia making hundreds of millions off these women.

Does anyone really knows Kristen's cut of the $ 2,000? It is not about consenting sex anymore. It is about exploited women. Why should the ring who fix Kristen up with Spitzer gets more than 15% agent's fee for example?

In using the services of prostitutes, men are enablers and facilators of, well, sex for sale, women for sale.

Do you really want to tell your female relatives and friends it is a good profession for them to pursue with a nice career path, promotion prospects, pension funds, company Christmas parties, and retirement farewell parties etc.?

It is a profession of diminishing returns and prospects as one gets older. If one saves enough, one may just be able to open a hair salon or massage parlour.

My opinion, of course, is coloured by the fate of Asians prostitutes. Perhaps in America it is different. Perhaps all the ladies of the nights pick out this profession by free choice and free will and have no social stigmas attached to them by the very men who used their services.

The case of Mr. Spitzer made me realise that some American men are quick to stand by their fellow men who use prostitutes and not just the wives of the men themselves who would stand by their men regardless.

In the end, we, men and women, are all responsible for perpetuating prostitution in tolerating it as a business meeting a consumer need. The fact remains that the legal ones and those who voluntarily chose to be ladies of the nights are a very small minority.

We are so humanist. We are so humane. We are so self-centred in asserting our natural biological needs and fundamental rights to cater to those needs that we are not seeing the person who is providing us with those needs for money. Why she is doing it? And the millions of prostitutes who are not charging US$ 2,000 but less than US $ 100 in the US and less than US $ 5 in many developing countries.

Who gives a hoot for the fate of Spitzer.

BTW, why not take the view that Spitzer loves prostitutes? (that would also explain his past anti-exploitation lawmaking)

(changed nickname yet again:)

Anon,

BTW, you are what I would call a cestpool of the Moral Majority of American thinking...

Read your bible and bother my no more...even better....read the little children's book I posted...but then again, that morality would be lost on you and you ilk.

I really don't understand what all the fuss is about...From what I can tell he didn't run the ring and got rich of it at the expense of the "Ladies of the Night".

He slept with a prostitute.....big deal!!!!!

America needs to let go of its puritanical roots. In most other industrialized western countries, prostitution is seen as a normal business transaction between two consenting adults. It is a regulated business where the women pay taxes, are required to have health evaluations every six month, and are contributing members of society. Most married women in Europe would rather their husband see a professional lady than a fly-by-night or starting an affair.

There are plenty of other things we should concern ourselves with....Like the war in Iraq, the ongoing tribulations in Afghanistan, the slaughter in Dafur, etc., etc. etc.....

And maybe it would behove us to question why the dollar is not wanted any more in most countries, but who cares....we are one Nation Under GOD....

Yeah

Please read the following, all of it. I am sending it to my brother and his wife who are indoctrinating my beautiful little niece with Catholic mumbo jumbo.

http://www.ferkelbuch.de/

Oh there "Reality Challenged" and Obfuscating Jihadist,

Again you fail to note a major flaw in Islam i.e. polygamy i.e. as noted previously, Mr. Spitzer's real mistake was not declaring himself to be a Muslim thereby being able to claim his call girls his other wives. Probably would not be acceptable in the US courts but hey he could have packed his bags and "shuffled off" to Saudi Arabia becoming a lobbyist for the King in the halls and hotels of Washington D.C. Maybe he still will do this. Hmmm, Elliot Spitzer in a ghutra an iqal and thawb???

I wonder if Kristen had any Saudi princes on her list????

Which Holimoses, is precisely why I attempted to enlighten. Why did you leave out 3/3 of verse 6?

Dear whatever name you are using:
The idea of having sex for money makes me queasy at best. But just like no one would sell drugs if nobody bought them, prostitutes would not exist if there were no johns. We have tried locking up sex workers and drug dealers and as long as there is demand, a new supply will spring up to fill in the gaps.

Your use of words like sl*t also troubles me. Are you saying that women have more responsibility for sexual purity than men do? If not, you need to moderate your language. I agree that this woman is more than a victim in all this, but she is essentially powerless compared to the governor.

To return to my first analogy, she did not stand in a schoolyard trying to lure a child into a sinful addiction. Spitzer is an adult and he initiated the activity. Our hypersexualized society needs to hold men accountable for their harmful impulses -- at least as much as women. I see this as an issue of personal responsibility, for both partners.

You are correct that we tend to give a pass to the profit motive while condemning "personal immorality." Kristin or Ashley or whatever she calls herself seems to be guilty of greed (for money) and the related desire for a quick buck. Sort of like a sub-prime mortgage broker or an executive at Enron. The fact that her behavior was demonstrably x-rated doesn't make it any more disgusting than theirs.

- GaryD:

It should be noted that Verse 5 says that eating of the tree will make it possible to be 'like God' and know good and evil; and Verse 6 states that: So when the woman 'saw' that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the 'eyes', and a tree to make one wise ....". Verse 7: Then the 'eyes' of both of them were 'opened' and they knew they were naked ...". If all mankind knows 'good and evil' then Bush/The Far Right/Pat Robertson/etc. doesn't have an exclusive charter for determining good and evil!

Once you get to the point that you can analyze the writings objectively you can see that the writers of the Bible were/are obsess with sex and that they almost always make statements that cannot be true, then proclaim them to be true.

Maybe it is the highjacking of the Supreme Being (God) and the 'dissing' of women that should be the original 'sin'.

Maybe God doesn't like to be 'dissed' by someone saying he did or said something he didn't say or do!!!! "...think or these things"!!!!!!!!!

HOlimoses, one should note that the fault as portrayed in scripture for original sin did not lie with Eve. One should note that until Adam ate no one's eye's were opened. God had made it Adam's responsibility.

Spitzer, the arrogant, the powerful, the alpha male, has to pay for sex? Pathetic.

Perhaps we should consider hookers as the insurgents against and undermining social, ethical norms and moralistic values imposed by alpha men themselves to control other men and women but think don't apply to them, they can get away with, and will never get caught.

Perhaps we should give annual "Hookers of the Year" awards to those who showed up public and religious officials caught with their pants and public faces down.

Perhaps some of the criteria should be:

- how much money they charged to men who think every woman is throwing themselves at them because they are significant public officials.

- how high up the men are in public posts

- how fast he resigned

Quite irrititating to see that hookers are almost "blamed" for the serious lapse of trust the public officials. She did not ask him to come to her. She did not ask him to pay her. But he did.

A hooker is different from a mistress. She is smarter. She would not give a married man who would not leave his wife anything for free.

Hooray for hoookers! It's your professional calling sisters, to buck the social norms and laws set and uphold by hypocrital and self-serving men - as insurgents against hypocrisies and hypocrites, as frontline shock troops against pompous, righteous patriachical champs and chimps. Bring em down! We'll take it from there and keep them out.

Hope Mrs. Spitzer take all and leave Mr. Spitzer. How can anyone be certain there was not other laspes of infidelity, adultery, breach or trust apart from the one with "Kristen" which he was caught? Mrs. Spitzer deserve better. Unless her love is blind.

Let us all be supporters of the Hookers' Liberation Front against Hypocritical and Self-Serving Male Domination in Politics and Religions. Never mind the call-girl ring is set up, managed and profited by men. Sign...

Oh ye, my American sisters. Are you sure you are that free and liberated from men's rules, expectations and gender conditioning? Even if you are atheists and with atheist men?

Thanks and regards
"J" Grrrr......Brrrr....:)

Mr Spitzer's scandal makes manifest the true spiritual and moral beliefs by which the people of New York were being governed,and by which Mrs. Spitzer was spiritually and morally betrayed.
Every politician governs according to their true spirituallity,regardless of the spirituallity that is presented for public consumption.
The question presented itself reflects a nebulous,if not abysmal spiritual understanding that is laughable.
As if we can compartmentalize multiple spiritualities and summon them at will.
Jesus said it best," a man cannot serve two masters"
The idea that his wife, the one who was most solemnly sworn to before God,ranks lower on the governor's spirtual food chain than the constituency
What a colossal assumption of self inportance.

The Eliot Spitzer scandal says nothing about our society's sense of morality and everything about the sensationalism of the news these days.

As a kid I remember reading about Fanne Fox and Wilbur Mills. What's different now?

As a New Yorker, I'm dumbfounded that the governor would want to practice "unsafe" sex and bring who knows what diseases home to his wife.

I am pleased, however, that "Dr. Laura" was nearly shouted down when she suggested that men cheat because they're not feeling appreciated or understood at home.

Spitzer sounds like he has a case of arrested development and possibly a sex addiction.

There's no amount of attention you can give a sex addict that makes them feel good enough.

Issues of morality come home to all of us times. Last night I ran into an acquaintance of mine that I have had some differences with in the recent past. The last time that I saw this man he said some very hurtful things to me. I did not tell him this but at the time that he said them I immediately walked away.

He approached me last night in such a humble manner and came right to the point, identifying the incident that I speak of above. After he identified it, he then verbalized recognition that he may have offended me by what he said. I acknowledged that he had “hurt” me by what he said. He then took full responsibility of his actions and apologized to me.

Based on his approach and sincerity to rectify the situation I immediately accepted his apology. Furthermore, I was so overcome by his sensitivity and acknowledgment of my feelings from his actions and his genuine remorseful attitude that as I forgave his offense. I immediately felt a release from my hurt regarding the incidence. This man obviously has a conscious and an inner conviction at work in order for him to do the above.

Now you ask how can Sidal forgive her husband after what he has done. Really we do not know the true answer but speculate the reason. However, I will tell you that there is “power” in forgiveness in combination with true repentance or remorse over one that has wronged another.

Jesus preached this same concept to freely forgive those that repent,
John 8:3-, {3}And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, {4}They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. {5}Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? {6}This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. {7}So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. {8}And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. {9}And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. {10} When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? {11}She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

The combination of “ true repentance” and “forgiveness” are a powerful source that is not easily broken.

Patrick, thank you for restoring my faith in men again because I had none. But you have given me a foundation to build on again. You are truly a man with conviction and good morals.

CF

WEll well well, the little screed by Ms.
Quinnn has just up and disappeared. Didn't meet hosannahs, apparently.

Let's see. Can't mention Israel, or certainly not tell the truth. (Never another PEEP about the firing of Gandhi by editors of WAPO pandering to jewish complaints.) In Russia that'd be called censure.

The list grows and grows. All we get for "ON FAITH" is Berlinerblau. In headlines... though there are others hidden if you look hard enough way inside.

Mr. Spitzer is a human being after all. Moreover, it turns out he has an eye for the ladies although I can't see what he sees in 22 year olds. What the hell do you talk about afterwards. Nevertheless, I would have Elliot Spitzer as a friend, someone I would trust implicitly and explicitly, and know that if the chips were down this man would come through. The same goes for Bill Clinton, Julius Caesar and John Kennedy--men who all had an eye for the ladies.

For the rest of you moral judges, the distillate of 2,000 years of the Judeo-Christian ethic, your search for a neutered beta male as a leader is pathetic. Leave this man alone. Leave his wife alone. Go back to your miserable existence where you can only wonder how some men and women live as if they won't pass this way again. Most of you have never lived nor will you ever.

The world, as a global society, ended 19 years ago. Today's global society is post-apocalyptic but there are many people who are still apocalyptic (for whom the world has ended but hasn't begun), rather then post-apocalyptic.
(I mean this in the common sense of the word, not the biblical)

There is scriptural ground for divorce when adultery is committed according to,

Matthew 5:31-32, {31} "It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce. {32} But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery." NIV

The one who did not commit adultery is free to marry again.

good heavens:

Ts, ts, you have a very vivid imagination :). I've had girlfriends (all 207 of them at the same time!) and I have never been married.

Otherwise, yes, there are circumstances that I write off as something else. I blame Paris Hilton for the end of the world. Haliburton and Co. are merely God's tool in bringing this about, led by the last avatar of Vishnu - archangel George.
How could I indeed, a mere human, questio...

There is scriptural ground for divorce when adultery is committed according to,

Matthew 5:31-32, {31} "It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce. {32} But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery." NIV

The one who did not commit adultery is free to marry again.

Jesus' commentary about marriage/divorce has been rated authenic Jesus by many contemporary NT exegetes, i.e.

Against Divorce: (1) 1 Cor 7:10-11; (2) 1or2?Q: Luke 16:18 = Matt 5:31-32; (3) Mark 10:10-12 = Matt 19:9; (4) Herm. Man. 4.1:6b,10 multiple attestations from the first stratum, 30-60 CE

See http://wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php/015_Against_Divorce

Mark 10: 6-12-

"But from the beginning of creation, 'God made them male and female.' /7/ 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, /8/ and the two shall become one flesh.' So they are no longer two, but one flesh. /9/ Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate." /10/ Then in the house the disciples asked him again about this matter. /11/ He said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her; /12/ and if she divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery."

Perspective,

Sorry about that "dig" against Democratic adulterers. They just stick out in a crowd of misbehaving politicians :))

Here is an expanded view to include some Republican adulterers:

What else was in Mr. Spitzer's hotel room??? The stench and ghosts of JFK, Bill Clinton, Gary Hart, Jesse Jackson, Newt Gingrich, Rudy Giuliani, Kobe Bryant, Bill Cosby and every Muslim polygamist!!!!!!

TJ, ""I want to be free from this lifelong pain. Why didn't any changes occur or any love or help come when I accepted you as Lord and Savior?"

Good question kid."

`````````````

I believe when that kid wrote that letter he was emotionally distraught and under those type of circumstances people can see their life situations in a negative light.

Plus we do not know how long he was a Christian maybe he was expecting an instant turnaround and when it didn't come it yielded instant disappointment.

Most likely he had other severe issue going on in his life as well.

There's certainly no shortage of self-righteousness present here. What a relief! I would have thought the whole country was going to hell in a hand basket but luckily there are a few citizens that are holier-than-thou remaining. The stench of sanctimony is overwhelming.

CCNL - and again, you've identified your political persuasions & party of preference quite clearly with your typically obsessive and skewed perspective. Thanks for pointing out that the only folks stepping outside the boundries of marital fidelity and good taste are democrats and/or african americans.....and of course the usual suspects - Muslim offenders.

And good luck with that limp candidate of yours -

This isn't quite as interesting as the letter that the kid in CO wrote to his imaginary buddy before he started shooting.

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/15576902/detail.html

"I want to be free from this lifelong pain. Why didn't any changes occur or any love or help come when I accepted you as Lord and Savior?"

Good question kid.

Viejita del oeste, "JC Today & Always, I've got to disagree with your point. You can't blame the woman on this one. The person with the power was Spitzer, not the sex worker Dupre. I read that somewhere, I think Sweden, they've cut down on prostitution by changing the way the laws are written. They did it by prosecuting the customers but not the prostitutes: cut back on demand and the supply disappears."
~~~~~~~~~~~

We are not in Sweden.

Regardless, the sl*t has a moral responsibility as well as the fact that she broke the law by charging money for Spitzer to have sex with her.

I hope they throw the book at her and Spitzer. The prostitute has 2 major problems, one LUST for sex and two LUST/GREED for money. The root of evil is “the love of money.”

Just because I did not mention Spitzer in my post does not mean that I think he is not responsible. In my opinion they "both" are equality as guilty and deserve to be prosecuted.

This is kind of a boring question. Why aren't we talking about Jeremiah Wright?

JC Today & Always, I've got to disagree with your point. You can't blame the woman on this one. The person with the power was Spitzer, not the sex worker Dupre. I read that somewhere, I think Sweden, they've cut down on prostitution by changing the way the laws are written. They did it by prosecuting the customers but not the prostitutes: cut back on demand and the supply disappears.

...And Gary D is correct about the sexual harassment. An office manager may be in no position to say no to the governor. That would be abuse of power at the very least.

Sexuality is a major factor in human beings' lives. It relates to male and females.

Sexuality differs. There are as many types of sexuality as people.

Sexuality is limited by laws and moral values to prevent any harm to other individuals.

But if one takes responsibility as a public servant, he/she must put limits to expression of his/her sexuality. It's one of unsaid terms of contract between people and public servants.

The tragedy of Diana was exactly that. She couldn't understan