Readers’ Responses to Our Question (125)

If there is no resurrection- there is no purpose or meaning in the cross. The cross and the resurrection stand together and are at the center of the message of redemption which is the gospel.

Christianity is as segregationist as any other discriminatory Faith. The pleasantries only apply to Christians. This is the reason for the growing hate of secular government, non-believers, or people who dare to question religion. This discrimination is just as ugly a trait as those found in Extremist Islam or any other Fundamentalist religious sect. When people bring up the ugly verses of the Bible many Christians say that Jesus negated those verses. Well, He never said that the covenants or orders from God in the Old Testament were negated. This is one reason why religion can become de-reformed or unreformed. We in the modern civilization are lucky that Christians have misinterpreted or ignore sections of the Bible in most denominations or sects of Christianity. Matthew 5:17, John 5:45-47, Luke 24:44, John 6:19-23, and Hebrews 11:23-29 are all direct references to Moses and the Law of the Old Testament, yet they ignore many covenants of the Old Test. Many Christians Feel that Jesus would absolve them or not enforce Old Test. Law like the unethical verses held within Deuteronomy, Leviticus, or any other Book that outline the punishments to be carried out for breaking God’s Laws. A few examples are Deuteronomy verses 30:17-18/13:6-18/17:2-6 & 22:13-24, Leviticus verses 27:29/24:10-15 & 6:25, or Matthew 5:25. Non-believers are lucky that Christians have not been interpreting the Bible the way it could be interpreted. Jesus could have been claiming that one who felt that he or she had no sin could throw that first stone and there are those in our society who feel that they are absolved of sin due to their belief in Jesus. They believe that His death cleansed them of original sin; thus they feel that, if they live without sin they are now righteous through their belief in Jesus. As well, if they repent or confess their sin they are now without sin. It is these self-righteous people that scare me, because they would throw that first stone. As well, if you feel that belief in Jesus as a Son of God is absolute, than the laws of Moses, as punishment for sin no longer applies to those free of sin due to Jesus. This is the root of separatism and the elevation of themselves away from the rest of society. This exclusionary attitude is what drives the culture war. They feel that they are right while others are wrong because a book said so. They have the right to believe that but I have the right to say that is not based on logic, reason, or fact, rather it is based only on faith. The trick is in the details of the absolutist aspect of, believe or else. You were excused from the treatment under Deuteronomy, Leviticus, and other Biblical Books only if you were a believer in Jesus as God. But if you do not the punishments described applied directly to you, thus Mat. 5:17 is not a pass from Moses Law rather it is the pathway to avoid being stoned to death only if you follow Jesus as God. Now I do not claim any religion or faith. I do worry about any push towards using Biblical Law within Government. Because one can interpret the Bible to suit any means to any end that one can dream up. Most people think that Jesus was all about peace and love. This belief is only true if you believe that He was a God or a Son of God. Jesus would only bring peace and love for those who agree with Him as He states in Matthew 10:34-39 or John 8:24. All other non-believers fall under the code of Moses and the treatment of non-believers mentioned through out the Bible. Modern absolutist or literalist fundamentalism has interpreted the Bible to include the non-belief in Jesus as a sin or blasphemy. There are many who claim that Christianity is some how more advanced, superior, moral, or gentle version of religion than Islamic Fundamentalists. I would argue that Evangelical Fundamentalist Extremists are just as dangerous or potentially threatening to a free society as Islamic Fundamentalist Extremists. I would also argue that all the main three religions are all capable of 7th or 15th century treatment of those whom they view as different or non-believers. Any good that has come from religion is negated by all the religious war, hate, terrorism, discrimination, or violence that permeate the history of human existence. We are lucky to live in a secular nation, where the government is not governed by religion nor is religion governed by the state. Our only protection from reverting to witch hunts, crusades, forced conversions, and other religious injustice is our secular government. The potential for abuse of mankind is written within the pages of the Bible because it treats those who do not believe as subhuman soulless 2nd class citizens and there is nothing that can eliminate that effect within the society of Biblical Theology.

SUO SIBI GLADIO HUNC JUGULO

Victoria- want to tell everyone again what a peace-lover al-Qaradawi is? Or that the meaning of Islam is peace and not surrender? I could go on..

Get some help.

Mr. Qaradawi (spiritual leader of the Muslim Brotherhood) has issued a Fatwa called ”El-amalijat al-istishadiya a’zam suwar al-jihad” (Suicide operations are the highest form for Jihad). The Fatwa claims that suicide operations are: a) a defense of Islamic territory and religion; b) Jihad in honor of Allah; c) not terrorism but heroic acts; and d) not by any means suicide, but as far removed from suicide as conceivable. The Fatwa was issued 3 October 2001 and can be found in Arabic on Mr. Qaradawi’s home pages.

www.qaradawi.net

actually amro-
farnaz said that march 25th @ 5:07am

you read my response @ march 25th @ 10:28am

over 5 hours later-

i dont rephrase what people say, but copy it exactly for the sake of accuracy.

i asked him to post where he got this-

as with the allegation (false) that i asserted i was a christian somewhere-

as with the allegation that other posters have called me a hater (not til now)

as with any support for the many accusations of lying-

so far-
silence-

so, the allegations can be dismissed-

hope you are clear on this now.

thats why it helps to read ALL the words-
not just the ones that confirm an already established mindset.

Victoria wrote to Farnaz:

"Among posts to another panel, someone pointed out that you are a Jew.S/he went on to say that when you rise up in defense of others in lieu of asserting and defending your own group/religious identity, you are quite understandably held in contempt by those you seek to "protect."

let me point out, it is quite possible , and ive done it with people of different races, sexual orientation, religion-...

Get therapy, Victoria. Farnaz is not your brother, Idiot, and neither am I,

looks like we have a new group here-

so, the consensus is that 20% of the world's population, who believe the very benign and truthful 5 pillars of faith of islam are lairs?

thats quite a claim!

but this is america kids-
we have freedom of expression, and more importantly- freedom to express our religious beliefs.

so here's how it works-

find posts by myself, where there is a demonstrable lie or inconsistency-
genrerally here- we respect when sources are supplied-

so post the question the alleged lie takes place-
and of course the time and date-

so that it can be located of course-

so, this is a direct challenge to the accusers here-

another little foible in america-
innocent until guilty- facing ones accusers (of course habeus corpus has been denied the prisoners at guantanamo bay- but since they're muslims, that i suppose is not important to the freedom loving crowd in here)

go find those posts!
have fun kids!

otherwise, you'll just have to complain, and hope the adminstrators here share your worldview- and make me leave-

or learn to live in a pluralistic society-

i guess the proof will be in the pudding-
if i disappear, it will mean the admin agreed with you all-

if i stay- it will mean your accusations are baseless-
which they are-

looks like we have a new group here-

so, the consensus is that 20% of the world's population, who believe the very benign and truthful 5 pillars of faith of islam are lairs?

thats quite a claim!

but this is america kids-
we have freedom of expression, and more importantly- freedom to express our religious beliefs.

so here's how it works-

find posts by myself, where there is a demonstrable lie or inconsistency-
genrerally here- we respect when sources are supplied-

so post the question the alleged lie takes place-
and of course the time and date-

so that it can be located of course-

so, this is a direct challenge to the accusers here-

another little foible in america-
innocent until guilty- facing ones accusers (of course habeus corpus has been denied the prisoners at guantanamo bay- but since they're muslims, that i suppose is not important to the freedom loving crowd in here)

go find those posts!
have fun kids!

otherwise, you'll just have to complain, and hope the adminstrators here share your worldview- and make me leave-

or learn to live in a pluralistic society-

i guess the proof will be in the pudding-
if i disappear, it will mean the admin agreed with you all-

if i stay- it will mean your accusations are baseless-
which they are-

Anonymous : "Victoria can be blocked. It's a matter of contacting the blog owners. It can also be done by someone outside of WaPo who knows more about computers than I do."

???????????????????????????

This would be in violation of the FCC rules and against federal law to prevent the use of someone's electronic device by hacking.

Any banning of any user posting comments should and shall be done by the Washington Post becuse this is their site.

Washington Post reserves the right to make the determination of what and who's comments needs to be blocked.

Jamo:

You can always tell Victoria. The same tone, style, hysteria. She's lied before on other threads and she has been caught.

Thanks to Farnaz for catching her this time.

What if non-U.S. governmental organizations monitor this site 24/7 and use the same moniker in posting whether it is by the same individual or not????? Could explain a lot.

Victoria can be blocked. It's a matter of contacting the blog owners. It can also be done by someone outside of WaPo who knows more about computers than I do.

She needs to be blocked. Victoria is a menace.

The only way to get rid of the lying Victoria is to call her out every time she shows up on a thread.

She's not just sick. She's destructive.

Muslim have enough problem without Victoria. You can ban person from a blog. She should not
post here.

Farnaza:

I think they're all good ideas. The thing is they're beyond Quinn and outside of what she wants from this blog.

Anon is probably right. Serious discussion of matters dealing with religion won't happen on this blog. We'll keep getting major loons and other MPDs like Victoria.

Josh

Victoria

Its foolish of you to pretend this is the first time you've been accused of lying.

Any long time reader of this forum knows you have repeatedly been caught and documented passing off false statements on this board.

You have a pattern. You accuse islamophobe -then say you are insulted and will no longer post until someone apologises. Then you continue posting on another thread.

Its clear you are troubled and have no full-time occupation -other than post here.

Get some therapy and give it a rest..

its a cut and paste- who said otherwise?
how do you get the idea that is plagarism?
how do you "ban" someone from pasting on an internet blog?

this is the best you could come up with in slander?

the islamophobes have found each other-
stay united in your prejudice- how honorable

Victoria should be banned from this blog. She has misrepresented herself, and now she has plagiarized.

Farnaz:

Don't mean to intrude, but a more erudite panel, better management, etc., wouldn't that suggest starting another blog?

Maybe you or someone else could do this. I'll bet a lot of readers would follow you.

Hi Josh,

No, actually, I wasn't thinking of Levinas, but I can see why you would ask. I saw your endorsement of Observer's call for a lucid essay on the interrelations of religion, which I thought a good idea, but your question to me put me in mind of three other possibilites.

1. An essay and questions on neo-Levinasian "theory," to include the face, alterity

2. Have other people, true experts, write the essays, pose the questions

3. Solicit questions from the readers

What do you think?

Farnaz wrote to Jihadist:

Here is the link to Victoria's plagiarized post on Islam.

Appreciating Islam

Thank you, Farnaz.

I followed your directions and found all to be as you said. What is up with this lying Victoria? I don't believe she is anything. She is no Muslim, no Jew, no Christian.

A liar and a thief. That is what she is.

Farnaz:

Yes to the first two, but I haven't read all of Heschel. He's probably the most human being I've ever seen in print. Tough going, though. Didn't know about the poetry. I'll look into it.

When you wrote about the Messiah being a concept to some people, were you thinking of Levinas?

Josh

Hi Josh,

Must go to sleep, but I was wondering if you had read Heschel on the tetragrammaton. I just finished reading everything of his that has been translated into English. (Also, the Christian philosopher Cornel West has written some interesting things on Heschel.)

Did you know that Heschel wrote secular poetry?! It has recently been translated.

Farnaz

Hello Jihadist,

FYI: Meant to write this earlier. Here is the link to Victoria's plagiarized post on Islam.

Appreciating Islam

If this title does not come up as a link, you can simply type it in the address bar; it will come up in the search results.

Click the button on the left titled "The Pillars of Islam," and you will come to the vertaim source of her post. (It takes about thirty-two seconds to find most plagiarized meaterial on the web.)

Do come back and play. CCNL needs someone worthy to argue with (and Victoria is not that person, sad to say.) :)

Best,

Farnaz

CCNL wrote:

"1. Belief in Allah"

"aka as God, Yahweh, Zeus, Jehovah, Mother Nature, etc." should be added to your cleansing neurons.

YHWH and other variants are the tetragrammaton. This business of referring to "belief" in the tetragrammaton developed with nineteenth century religious "scholars" who assimilated other religions to Christianity. The idea of belief in the tetragrammaton is anthropomorphic nonsense, oxymoronic,intellectually insulting.

With a Ph.D. in the Hebrew Bible, you should know this. I would think that despite whatever you may have been taught back in the day, you were given the tools to pursue further research. It's important to understand the subjectivity of other people's beliefs regardless of what you might think.

Take this from an atheist.

Another Kafr writes

There is only one thing Victoria has proven herself to be post after post:

she's a liar..

You are right. As was the case with this last post of hers. On another thread someone wrote that she was a hater. Both are true. One cannot say for sure what religion, if any, she adheres to, certainly not Islam.

But she is a hater. There is enormous beauty in the Christain faith, indeed in all three of the Abrahamic religions. This question deals with the resurrection of Jesus Christ, whom, as I mentioned does not figure in Judaism, which is rigorously, absolutely monotheistic. The deity is not incarnated, is not to be confused with human beings--almost above all not that, since it goes to idolatry. There are many, many names for God in the Bible, depending on the occasion, the aspect, etc., but the deity cannot be limited, even given a definitive name. Hashem = (the) name. The vast differences between Judaism and Christianity notwithstanding, my own studies of the latter notwithstanding, I can say that hate and lying do not belong in posts dealing with matters such as this.

More and more pluralism is developing in Christianity as Former Christian notes. The same is true of Judaism, of course. Reconstructionist Judaism which locates religions historically even allows for disbelief in a deity. Belief, disbelief are difficult questions throughout Judaism, often irrelevant. For many, the notion of Messiah is a concept rather than a human being.
What is true throughout is that the beliefs of nonJews are their own affair, not to be interfered with, challenged, etc.

Hate, lying, creating conflict, David wrote eloquently on those matters.

Hate and lying should have no place on this thread. They should have no place on threads dealing with Judaism, Islam, Animism, etc. Indeed, they should have no place anywhere.

I don't really like to call Victoria a hater and a liar. Perhaps we can say that she hates and lies in her posts. Perhaps, we can hope that she finds her way.

Farnaz

There is only one thing Victoria has proven herself to be post after post:

she's a liar..

hi lib- thanks, you're right on schedule!

i had considered posting the 5 pillars of faith- but decided against it as i know the shahada(testimony and public delaration of faith) is sufficient.

but- you inspired me, as you always do-

1) Faith | 2) Prayer | 3) The 'Zakat'
4) The Fast | 5) Pilgrimage (Hajj)

They are the framework of the Muslim life: faith, prayer, concern for the needy, self-purification, and the pilgrimage to Makkah for those who are able.

1) FAITH

There is no god worthy of worship except God and Muhammad is His messenger. This declaration of faith is called the Shahada, a simple formula which all the faithful pronounce. In Arabic, the first part is la ilaha illa Llah - 'there is no god except God'; ilaha (god) can refer to anything which we may be tempted to put in place of God - wealth, power, and the like. Then comes illa Llah: 'except God', the source of all Creation. The second part of the Shahada is Muhammadun rasulu'Llah: 'Muhammad is the messenger of God.' A message of guidance has come through a man like ourselves.

2) PRAYER ( Prayer Performance )

Salat is the name for the obligatory prayers which are performed five times a day, and are a direct link between the worshipper and God. There is no hierarchical authority in Islam, and no priests, so the prayers are led by a learned person who knows the Quran, chosen by the congregation. These five prayers contain verses from the Quran, and are said in Arabic, the language of the Revelation, but personal supplication can be offered in one's own language.

Prayers are said at dawn, noon, mid-afternoon, sunset and nightfall, and thus determine the rhythm of the entire day. Although it is preferable to worship together in a mosque, a Muslim may pray almost anywhere, such as in fields, offices, factories and universities. Visitors to the Muslim world are struck by the centrality of prayers in daily life.

A translation of the Call to Prayer is:

God is most great. God is most great.
God is most great. God is most great.
I testify that there is no god except God.
I testify that there is no god except God.
I testify that Muhammad is the messenger of God.
I testify that Muhammad is the messenger of God.
Come to prayer! Come to prayer!
Come to success (in this life and the Hereafter)!
Come to success!
God is most great. God is most great.
There is no god except God.

3) THE 'ZAKAT'
One of the most important principles of Islam is that all things belong to God, and that wealth is therefore held by human beings in trust. The word zakat means both 'purification' and 'growth'. Our possessions are purified by setting aside a proportion for those in need, and, like the pruning of plants, this cutting back balances and encourages new growth.

Each Muslim calculates his or her own zakat individually. For most purposes this involves the payment each year of two and a half percent of one's capital.

A pious person may also give as much as he or she pleases as sadaqa, and does so preferably in secret. Although this word can be translated as 'voluntary charity' it has a wider meaning. The Prophet said 'even meeting your brother with a cheerful face is charity.'

The Prophet(pbuh) said: 'Charity is a necessity for every Muslim. ' He was asked: 'What if a person has nothing?' The Prophet(pbuh) replied: 'He should work with his own hands for his benefit and then give something out of such earnings in charity.' The Companions asked: 'What if he is not able to work?' The Prophet(pbuh) said: 'He should help poor and needy persons.' The Companions further asked 'What if he cannot do even that?' The Prophet(pbuh) said 'He should urge others to do good.' The Companions said 'What if he lacks that also?' The Prophet(pbuh) said 'He should check himself from doing evil. That is also charity.'

4) THE FAST
Every year in the month of Ramadan, all Muslims fast from first light until sundown, abstaining from food, drink, and sexual relations. Those who are sick, elderly, or on a journey, and women who are pregnant or nursing are permitted to break the fast and make up an equal number of days later in the year. If they are physically unable to do this, they must feed a needy person for every day missed. Children begin to fast (and to observe the prayer) from puberty, although many start earlier.

Although the fast is most beneficial to the health, it is regarded principally as a method of self purification. By cutting oneself off from worldly comforts, even for a short time, a fasting person gains true sympathy with those who go hungry as well as growth in one's spiritual life.

5) PILGRIMAGE (HAJJ)
The annual pilgrimage to Makkah - the Hajj - is an obligation only for those who are physically and financially able to perform it. Nevertheless, about two million people go to Makkah each year from every corner of the globe providing a unique opportunity for those of different nations to meet one another. Although Makkah is always filled with visitors, the annual Hajj begins in the twelfth month of the Islamic year (which is lunar, not solar, so that Hajj and Ramadan fall sometimes in summer, sometimes in winter). Pilgrims wear special clothes: simple garments which strip away distinctions of class and culture, so that all stand equal before God.

Pilgrims praying at the mosque in Makkah.
The rites of the Hajj, which are of Abrahamic origin, include circling the Ka'ba seven times, and going seven times between the mountains of Safa and Marwa as did Hagar during her search for water. Then the pilgrims stand together on the wide plain of Arafa and join in prayers for God's forgiveness, in what is often thought of as a preview of the Last Judgment.

In previous centuries the Hajj was an arduous undertaking. Today, however, Saudi Arabia provides millions of people with water, modern transport, and the most up-to-date health facilities.

The close of the Hajj is marked by a festival, the Eid al-Adha, which is celebrated with prayers and the exchange of gifts in Muslim communities everywhere. This, and the Eid al-Fitr, a feast-day commemorating the end of Ramadan, are the main festivals of the Muslim calendar.

thanks lib, for giving me an opportunity to clarify the basic premise of islamic faith.

Victoria,

How goes the Deprogramming of your Islamic brainwashing???

Instead of the Five Steps, how about just three to get you started on the right path?

Using "The 77 Branches of Islamic "faith" a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi as a starting point. In it, he explains the essential virtues that reflect true "faith" (iman) through related Qur’anic verses and Prophetic sayings." i.e. a nice summary of the Koran and Islamic beliefs.

"1. Belief in Allah"

"aka as God, Yahweh, Zeus, Jehovah, Mother Nature, etc." should be added to your cleansing neurons.

"2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence."

Evolution and the Big Bang or the "Gib Gnab" (when the universe starts to recycle) are more plausible and the "akas" for Allah should be included if you continue to be a "creationist".

"3. To believe in the existence of angels."

A major item for neuron cleansing. Angels/devils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations, e.g. Hittites, to explain/define natural events, contacts with their gods, big birds, sudden winds, protectors during the dark nights, etc. No "pretty/ugly wingy thingies" ever visited or talked to Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or Joseph or Joe Smith. Today we would classify angels as fairies and "tinker bells". Modern devils are classified as the demons of the demented.

oops, cleary that was me, victoria again-

hello again farnaz-

you seem quite concerned with my religious identity-

and have made several incongruous claims of things i've said- which, of course- i never did-

when concerned the christian now liberated comes in to clarify who i am- you KNOW you must be confused (half his posts are directed to me- he's very concerned about my spiritual welfare it seems)

when he informed you, that i am a muslim- which indeed i most vociferously testify to- you responded with-

"If Victoria is a Muslim, I am an Animist."
MARCH 24 6:19PM

and then made this absurd claim that i said it myself!

"She says she is a Christian, not a Muslim. That, I now think, is possible."
MARCH 25 5:07AM

and then, skewing all reason, and directly contradicting your own self-in the same post you asserted- again erroneously!

"Amidst the comments responding to a diffent question is one from her claiming that she is a Jew. I took her at her word. However, her reply to me now suggests that either she is of Jewish parentage and knows nothing about Judaism, which is possible, or that she is a Christian, as she asserts."
MARCH 25 5:07AM

really? to use your own phrase... interesting.

so, you've stated 2x wrongly what i am-
and 2x wrongly what i am not!

your powers of observation in the matter of my identification seem somewhat unconscious-

while you spoke condescendingly to jihadist for not knowing your sex based upon your name-

ive had you pegged and identified from the outset-

you want to hit me withyour talent at argument?

a highly questionable "talent" to boast- debates are more welcome- marguments are so emotonally driven and devoid of logic-

go for it dude-

as for this continued silliness- and your further assertion-

"Victoria is not a Muslim. I would be happy to demonstrate."
MARCH 25 4:38AM

so demonstrate already!

I TESTIFY THAT THERE IS NO GOD, BUT (THE GOD) ALLAH.
I TESTIFY THAT MUHAMMAD(PEACE AND BLESSINGS BE UPON HIM) IS THE MESSENGER OF (THE GOD) ALLAH.

i hope this settles your confusion.

FARNAZ-
i take it as a compliment that you seem able to so easily slide me into so many skins.

the only info we have to go on, is your allusion to witnessing suffering-

we are all witnesses to suffering- its not the same as experiencing it ourselves-

when we experience it ourselves (again, we all do) the importance of that suffering is, does it polish the mirror of our hearts, and do we become better, more humane and compassionate people because of it?

do we learn the lessons our suffering is teaching us?

or do we crystallize it into a hard ball and use it as an excuse to justify previous prejudices and hatreds?

we all make these choices of how we react and respond to it every day.

no one's suffering is more important- than anyone elses.
what makes us outstanding is if we visibly grow from it.

i initially responded to you because you were trying to hijack the conversation towards your own agenda- which does not have good intentions- is not edifying anyone- and was interrupting the christians who came in to share their beliefs.

what is a bit sad- is you cannot seem to pinpoint my identity- and hence project what you think my agenda may be.

and without that- you seem at a loss as to how to attack me-

as if that were even necessary-

i just read all of your posts- and it saddened me a bit-
i get no pleasure from watching you twist around as you try to figure me out-

did it never occur to you that i may simply have the intention of fairness and peace?

i'm hardly your enemy- we don't know each other- and most people who've been here are very aware of my religious idnetification, as im very very vocal in its support and exhortation.

peace

What is so wrong with humans?

God, the perfect and intelligent designer created humans for them to be happy and for him to enjoy his creation. But then something bad happened. Scholars say that it was the “free will” that screwed thing badly.

Then the infinite and all powerful Designer solved the problem declaring all his creation tinted with sin. The humans were evicted from paradise.

Later on, when humans had multiplied , the Designer saw horrible flaws in their behavior, maybe caused again by the “free will”, and took drastic measures: drowned all but a small group of humans to clean the mess. Something like a extreme recall today when a product do not perform in the market as expected.

But that did not cleaned the mess. More extreme measures were needed. The perfect Designer himself, or at least a third of Him, had to go down to earth and become a very imperfect human in order to save the humans. Then he has to suffer immensely and be crucified to accomplish his mission. Which he did.

You would believe that then all humans ware completely saved, but no. More is needed. Humans apparently can’t be fixed that easy. Here are some of the things humans must do to really be saved (quote from a poster in other thread):

having been baptized,
repenting of past sins,
trusting Jesus as their Lord and Savior,
believing that Jesus is the Son of God,
believing that Jesus was resurrected,
doing good works,
following church rituals and sacraments, and/or
avoiding certain specific behaviors.

What is so wrong with humans?

Peace to all and best wishes,

JAC

Jihadist,

If you are afraid that I am a Muslim, fear not. If you are afraid I am knowledgeagle in Islam, that is another matter. As for Victoria, you ask why I do not take her at her word. She says she is a Christian, not a Muslim. That, I now think, is possible.

Amidst the comments responding to a diffent question is one from her claiming that she is a Jew. I took her at her word. However, her reply to me now suggests that either she is of Jewish parentage and knows nothing about Judaism, which is possible, or that she is a Christian, as she asserts. Also, I could be very wrong, as in some ways I was about you, but my guess is that Former Christian knew she could not be observant or even literate in Judaism in the same way I did.

Christ and the resurrection are not relevant to Judaism. There is no reference to Christ in Judaism. Further, Judaism is not a supersessionist religion. It does not employ either Christian or Muslim style typology. It does not seek converts. Anyone wishing to convert may do so, and from the time that he or she does, it is forbidden to speak of that person as a convert, but conversion is a personal decision. It is content within itself, and I mean no offense by this. Also, regardless of one's denomination, Judaism holds that God (Adonai, in this context) has a covenant with all peoples. It is not for Jews to judge or evaluate. The extent to which Jews maintain their own covenant is what is at issue. Whether or not Christians believe in the resurrection is up to them.

I will say that I have studied Christianity, have my own thoughts on it, that I have studied other religions, as well. I can, therefore, say that
like Islam, and unlike Christianity, Judaism is not a confessional religion. It is a way of life. It does not hinge on belief in the way that Christianity does.

But, you know, even if Ahmed from Bahrain were to write in saying that Moses, our teacher, had been resurrected, I would not be offended. I would think him confused, but I would not be offended.

Farnaz

Dear Jihadist,

Victoria is not a Muslim. I would be happy to demonstrate. But whence this great concern? Or is it the legitimacy of your own self-representation that you feel needs defending?

As for my being offended by the idea of the resurrection, I cannot fathom what you are referring to. As I mentioned, I have no problem with Ahmed. Why should I? As far as I am concerned, religion is a private matter. Islam has a problem with the resurrection, as you presumably know.

I will say this. I have no desire for you to be moved by what I told you or to believe me. I have given testimony and documented what occurred with us. I have done this along with thousands and thousands of others. My journey out of hell is complete. Your belief or disbelief changes nothing.

I suppose what surprises me is that you did not appear to know what has happened or is happening in Iran. Setting aside Jews and Christians fot the moment, how could you not know of the plight of the Bahai, now in the hands of the UN, which will do nothing, of course. It is hardly a secret. If I have time in the next couple of days, I'll post links. Come to think of it, links on our exile might be educative as well.

The exile of the Jews and many Christians from their homelands is not shrouded in secrecy. The same situation prevails in Egypt.

Egypt, Syria, Yemen, Iraq, Iran, etc. From these Muslim countries we have been driven. I am speaking of people, who, like my family, lived in these countries for centuries. We are now three million in exile. Our lands, our homes, in many cases, our lives were taken from us.

Odd...OUR right of return is never discussed. Odd. . .Very odd...

How, on earth, could you not know about it? You have access to the internet. . . .

Now, Jihadist, I await your response to my question on the Quarayza Jews. Frankly, there is no one who has read the Qu'ran who cannot answer it.

I am sorry you have chosen to quarrel with me. I am quite good at this sort of thing. But it is tedious and tiresome.

Farnaz

RandomsAndThoughts - why should the Post or any secular newspaper have any obligation to report on the beliefs of any religion as if it were factual? Newspapers report events. The event on Easter is that Christians are celebrating it. Not that Jesus rose from the dead. That's a belief, for which there is no evidence. For a newspaper, a religious holiday is simply a day that people of a particular religion celebrate their beliefs. That's it.

Mr Mark - thanks for watching those shows so I didn't have to.

I got some terms mixed up - in my first post on resurrection I equated "the Father" with "a beardy man in the sky", and pointed out that this notion can be refuted.
The refutation (i.e. the preposition that Jesus's followers raised him) implies "the divine in mankind", which leads to a redefinition of "the Father" as "the divine in mankind". This definition also explains him as both son of man and son of god i.e. man(kind) is divine.
(So I'm going along with it)

Oh there "Reality Challenged" and Obfuscating Jihadist,

Hmmm, "off you go"?? Again into your world of denial, denial that your religion, as are all religions, is greatly flawed? Please as you go off this time, consider addressing the flaws of Islam. I present the first four here once again so you can print them out and contemplate them on your journey:

1. Belief in "pretty/ugly wingie thingies".

2. Belief that an hallucinating, illiterate Arab did actually talk to the "pretty Gabriel" in the hot "Gabe" cave and therein received the warmongering and anti-female words and resultant laws now listed in the koran.

3. That Sunnis are superior to Shiites in all aspects of life. And Shiites think the same way about Sunnis.

4. That Islam is perfect and the koran inherently condones no sin even though the 24/7, 800 year-old blood feud between Sunnis and Shiites gives significant credence that greed, hate, suicides, assassinations, maiming, and murder are condoned by the koran. Having multiple wives also gives significant credence to the sins of rape, adultery, lust and polygamy. The condoned treatment of these wives gives credence that the koran allows the sins of hatred, anger and greed.

stan:
It looks pretty consistent to me. "Son of God" would refer to him being divine. "Son of Man" would refer to other men (i.e. mankind) being divine.
He also says it explicitly (John 10:34)

Hello Farnaz,

Thanks for your posts. I was moved by them until I read one from you addressed to Former Christian which stated:

"If Victoria is a Muslim, I am an Animist."

Come now. Was that really necessary? I can imagine your reaction if someone else said something along that line to you.

I take you as an Iranian Jew as you said you are here. Why can't you take her as a Muslim as she said so here?

Is there something we should know? Or are you pulling our legs with some telling slips in your posts?

You are the first Jewish person offended by questions on the Resurrection. Usually, it was Christians who got irate and took me aside when I stated matter of factly in other posts in other threads on other questions, that Muslims don't believe in the Trinity, the Original Sin, the Resurrection etc.

Only GaryD and Soja from Australia answered this question in a way that made me admire and respect them on their faith and belief.

All the best. Am going off.

Thanks again.

"J"

The gospel writings have Jesus referring to himself as "Son of Man" and others referring to him as "Son of God".

If you assume that an organization wrote the books over many years and fine tuned them as they went along, things fit together better. One of the things that seems to be consistent in most of the religious writings is a statement is made that can not be true then it is maintained that it is true. The same concept was used for the Iraq War and the Weapons of Mass Destruction.

Since religious groups are binding together for political purposes should not the religious concepts be subject to a court of law? People are required to tell the truth to the government; if then they make a religous statement that cannot be true to the government is that not then lying and committing perjury to the government??
Should "I have faith that it is true" provide cover?

Converting our nation into a theocracy would certainly create problems for our system of government.

RPC
Yes, all what you say is fine but before builidng a house one needs to build a solid foundation. That solid foundation is perfecting this life first. Take a look around you. Are you happy with what has befallen our lot?

Surely not. Then let us be an instrument of change. First change our own hearts, then reach out to anyone who listens and the world would be a better place.

Then we can talk about whether Jesus returned in person after death. Up until such time that we have a world full of hatred ad killing stories of Jesus are conjecture, no more. After we achieve peace and love, all such stories about Jesus shall become truth itself, clear as daylight.

Peace

Athena,
Thank you for the comment. As Perspective so eloquently commented below(March 23, 2008 4:09 PM )there are a variety of theories concerning the role of consciousness and how the "reality" of the material explicate universe interacts with consciousness. If you are interested in the current philosophical thought surrounding the evolution of consciousness combined with both the experiential traditions such as Sufism, Buddhism, Gnosticism, etc. and modern psychology, I suggest the integral philosopher Ken Wilbur and consciousness guru Andrew Cohen. Both of these forward thinkers contribute to a magazine, "What is Enlightenment"
http://www.wie.org
For an excellent website concerning the theoretical physics of a timeless universe I recommend:
http://www.everythingforever.com

For a view into the fascinating world of the role of consciousness within the enigmatic theory of quantum mechanics, I suggest "The Self Aware Universe" by Amit Goswami.(as explained by Perspective below)
The following are excerpts of an interview with Dr. Amit Goswami, a theoretical physicist who wrote the book, “The Self Aware Universe”.

“How it started happening first was that quantum objects—objects in quantum physics—began to be looked upon as waves of possibility. They are not waves in space and time. They cannot be called waves in space and time at all—they have properties which do not jibe with those of ordinary waves. So they began to be recognized as waves in potential, waves of possibility, and the potential was recognized as transcendent, beyond matter somehow.”

“In quantum physics objects are not seen as definite things, as we are used to seeing them. Newton taught us that objects are definite things, they can be seen all the time, moving in definite trajectories. Quantum physics doesn't depict objects that way at all. In quantum physics, objects are seen as possibilities, possibility waves. So then the question arises, what converts possibility into actuality? Because, when we see, we only see actual events. That's starting with us. When you see a chair, you see an actual chair, you don't see a possible chair.”

“Now this is called the "quantum measurement paradox." It is a paradox because who are we to do this conversion? Because after all, in the materialist paradigm we don't have any causal efficacy. We are nothing but the brain, which is made up of atoms and elementary particles. So how can a brain which is made up of atoms and elementary particles convert a possibility wave that it itself is? It itself is made up of the possibility waves of atoms and elementary particles, so it cannot convert its own possibility wave into actuality. This is called a paradox. Now in the new view, consciousness is the ground of being. So who converts possibility into actuality? Consciousness does, because consciousness does not obey quantum physics. Consciousness is not made of material. Consciousness is transcendent. The material world of quantum physics is just possibility. It is consciousness, through the conversion of possibility into actuality, that creates what we see manifest. In other words, consciousness creates the manifest world.”

As someone who is attempting to integrate the essences of the various spiritual traditions and experiences with the radical new theories emerging through theoretical physics and consciousness psychology, my zazen practice has "awakened" me somewhat to the subtle nature of our pure consciousness which unfolds from the implicate order. Theoretical physicist David Bohm's "Wholeness and Implicate Order" is an amazing attempt at a unification of the theories of relativity and quantum mechanics including the role of consciousness. While some of his conclusions differ from Amit Goswami, both men have ventured far beyond the limitations inherent in the super paradigm of pure materialism.

Former Christian,

If Victoria is a Muslim, I am an Animist.

Farnaz

The short answer:

(1 Corinthians 15:12-19) Now if Christ is being preached that he has been raised up from the dead, how is it some among YOU say there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If, indeed, there is no resurrection of the dead, neither has Christ been raised up. 14 But if Christ has not been raised up, our preaching is certainly in vain, and our faith is in vain. 15 Moreover, we are also found false witnesses of God, because we have borne witness against God that he raised up the Christ, but whom he did not raise up if the dead are really not to be raised up. 16 For if the dead are not to be raised up, neither has Christ been raised up. 17 Further, if Christ has not been raised up, YOUR faith is useless; YOU are yet in YOUR sins. 18 In fact, also, those who fell asleep [in death] in union with Christ perished. 19 If in this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all men most to be pitied.

The long answer:
From the very beginning the resurrection of Jesus met with doubt and disbelief. To the Jews in general, it was blasphemous for Jesus' followers to claim that this impaled man was the Messiah. And to most educated Greeks, with their belief in the immortality of the soul, the very idea of a resurrection was repugnant.—Acts 17:32-34.
In recent years, some scholars who profess to be Christians have published books and articles dismissing Jesus' resurrection as a fable and have initiated a fierce debate over this subject. In their search for "the historical Jesus," various scholars argue that the Gospel accounts of the empty tomb and Jesus' post-resurrection appearances are pure fiction, devised long after his death in order to support claims of his heavenly power.
In short, many scholars reduce the Bible accounts about the resurrected Jesus to a series of subjective experiences that produced in the disciples a renewed sense of spiritual self-confidence and missionary zeal.
Even though, many have little interest in academic skirmishes, a discussion of Jesus' resurrection should be of concern to all of us. If he was not resurrected, Christianity is based on a false foundation. On the other hand, if Jesus' resurrection is really a fact of history, Christianity is based on truth. Under those circumstances, not only are Christ's claims vindicated but so are his promises. Moreover, if there is a resurrection, death is not the great victor but an enemy that can be defeated.—1 Corinthians 15:55.
If Jesus was not literally resurrected, Jesus' disciples would probably have disappeared like the followers of the many would-be Messiahs. According to the Scriptures, Jesus appeared to his followers on several occasions shortly after his death.
"For a fact the Lord was raised up!"—Luke 24:34.
The disciples were called upon to defend their faith in Jesus as the Messiah. In doing so, they especially pointed to his resurrection from the dead as solid proof of his Messiahship.
"with great power the apostles continued giving forth the witness concerning the resurrection of the Lord Jesus."—Acts 4:33.
If anyone had ever proved that this resurrection was a fraud—perhaps by getting one of the disciples to admit that it was or by showing that Jesus' body remained in the tomb—Christianity would have failed at the start. But it did not. Knowing that Christ was alive, Jesus' followers went everywhere proclaiming his resurrection, and multitudes became believers in the risen Christ.
There is ample evidence that this was an actual event.
All four Gospel accounts report on Jesus' resurrection. (Matthew 28:1-10; Mark 16:1-8; Luke 24:1-12; John 20:1-29) Other portions of the Christian Greek Scriptures speak with certainty about the raising of Christ from death.
The real question is, how does Jesus’ resurrection affect mankind? Jesus prayed: "This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ." (John 17:3)
By acquiring life-giving knowledge of Jesus and of his Father and by applying such knowledge, even if we should die, we ourselves can be resurrected, since Jesus was. (John 5:28, 29) We can have the hope of everlasting life on a paradise earth under God's heavenly Kingdom in the hands of his glorified Son, Jesus Christ, the King of kings.—Isaiah 9:6, 7; Luke 23:43; Revelation 17:14.
So, then, the question of whether Jesus actually rose from the dead is crucial. It affects our life now and our prospects for the future. There are four lines of evidence that Jesus died and was resurrected.
1. Jesus really died on the stake.
Some skeptics claim that, though impaled, Jesus did not really die on the stake. They hold that he was only near death and that he was revived by the coolness of the tomb. Yet, every source available proves that it was the lifeless body of Jesus that was placed in the tomb.
Since Jesus was executed publicly, there were witnesses to the fact that he actually died on the stake. His death was certified by the centurion in charge of the execution. That army officer was a professional whose job included determining that death had taken place. Moreover, only after confirming that Jesus had died did the Roman Governor Pontius Pilate release Jesus' body to Joseph of Arimathea for interment.—Mark 15:39-46.
2. The tomb was found empty.
The empty tomb gave the disciples their first proof of Jesus' resurrection, and this evidence remains undisputed. Jesus was buried in a new tomb, one that had never been used. It was near the place of impalement and back then could unmistakably be located very easily. (John 19:41, 42) All the Gospel accounts agree that when Jesus' friends arrived at the tomb on the second morning after his death, his body was gone.—Matthew 28:1-7; Mark 16:1-7; Luke 24:1-3; John 20:1-10.
The empty tomb was astonishing to Jesus' enemies, just as it was to his friends. His foes had long been working to see him dead and buried. Having accomplished their goal, they took pains to post a guard and seal the tomb. Nevertheless, on the morning of the first day of the week, it was empty.
It’s unlikely that Jesus' friends would have taken his body from the tomb since the Gospels show that they were greatly distressed after his execution. Furthermore, his disciples would hardly have gone on to suffer persecution and death for something they knew to be fraudulent.
Jesus' enemies would have been the least likely to have taken the body. Even if they had, they would certainly have produced it later so as to refute the disciples' claims that Jesus had been resurrected and was alive.
Weeks later, Jesus' enemies did not rise up with an overwhelming rebuttal when Peter testified: "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man publicly shown by God to you through powerful works and portents and signs that God did through him in your midst, just as you yourselves know, this man, as one delivered up by the determined counsel and foreknowledge of God, you fastened to a stake by the hand of lawless men and did away with. But God resurrected him by loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to continue to be held fast by it. For David says respecting him, 'I had Jehovah constantly before my eyes . . . Moreover, even my flesh will reside in hope; because you will not leave my soul in Hades, neither will you allow your loyal one to see corruption.'"—Acts 2:22-27.
3. Many saw the resurrected Jesus.
In the book of Acts, the Gospel writer Luke stated: "To [the apostles] also by many positive proofs [Jesus] showed himself alive after he had suffered, being seen by them throughout forty days and telling the things about the kingdom of God." (Acts 1:2, 3) A number of disciples saw the resurrected Jesus on various occasions—in a garden, on a road, during a meal, by the Sea of Tiberias.—Matthew 28:8-10; Luke 24:13-43; John 21:1-23.
Critics question the veracity of these appearances. They say that the writers fabricated the accounts, or they cite seeming discrepancies in them. Actually, minor variations in the Gospel accounts prove that there was no collusion involved. Our knowledge of Jesus is broadened when one writer supplies details that supplement other accounts of certain incidents in the earthly life of Christ.
Some critics claim that Jesus' post-resurrection appearances were hallucinations. Any argument along those lines is implausible, since he was seen by so many people. Among them were fishermen, women, a civil servant, and even the doubting apostle Thomas, who was convinced only when he saw the irrefutable proof that Jesus had been raised from the dead. (John 20:24-29) On several occasions, disciples of Jesus did not at first recognize their resurrected Lord. Once, over 500 people saw him, most of whom were still alive when the apostle Paul used that incident as evidence in his defense of the resurrection.—1 Corinthians 15:6.
4. The living Jesus has an affect on people.
Since the first century, countless individuals have turned from indifference or total opposition to Christianity to absolute certainty that it is the true religion. A study of the Scriptures proved to them that God resurrected Jesus to life as a glorious spirit creature in heaven. (Philippians 2:8-11) They have exercised faith in Jesus and in Jehovah God's provision for salvation through Christ's ransom sacrifice. (Romans 5:8) Such individuals have found genuine happiness by doing God's will and living in harmony with Jesus' teachings.
Consider what it meant to be a Christian in the first century. There was no gain in prestige, power, or wealth. Many early Christians 'joyfully took the plundering of their belongings' for the sake of their faith. (Hebrews 10:34) Christianity called for a life of sacrifice and persecution that in many cases ended in martyrdom.
Before becoming Christ's followers, some had good prospects as far as prestige and wealth were concerned. Saul of Tarsus studied under the renowned Law teacher Gamaliel and was beginning to distinguish himself in the eyes of the Jews. (Acts 9:1, 2; 22:3; Galatians 1:14) Yet, Saul became the apostle Paul. He and many others turned their back on the prestige and power that this world offered in order to spread a message of true hope based on God's promises and on the fact that Jesus Christ had been resurrected from the dead. (Colossians 1:28) They were willing to suffer for a cause they knew to be founded on truth.
The same is true of millions today.

ZBOB and others - thank you for your fascinating insights. While I am no physicist (and I don't claim to understand about half of what you're saying), I'm interested in the concepts that you're putting forward. My husband and I were having similar discussions this past weekend. A book that I've been reading posits that what we call "God" (or Higher Consciousness, Gods, Loa, etc.) is actually another dimension. Human beings can access this "God Dimension" by meditation, mass focused energy, trance states, etc. Is this in line with what you are saying?

BTW - Happy Easter/Purim/Ostara/Nawruz to all!

So, "Father in Heaven" refers to the divine in man(kind), rather than a beardy man in the sky.

(This site's anti-spam filter is getting on my nerves - all messages shorter than 10 words disappear. What I wrote is this)

Son of Man's Father is Man. Man comes from mankind.

Angela,

All of your Christian "beliefs" are actually myths, embellishments, superstitions or lies because they come from a bible the suffers from these same gigantic flaws.

e.g. the reality of the supposed physical resurrection of Jesus:

From an analyses of the documents by many contemporary NT exegetes:

The Resurrection is fiction i.e. it was added to make Jesus akin to the Caesars and Greek half gods/half men

(1a) Mark 8:31-33 = Matt 16:2l-23 = Luke 9:22, (1b) Mark 9:9b = Matt 17:9b, (1c) Mark 9:12b = Matt 17:12b, (1d) Mark 9:30-32= Matt 17:22-23 = Luke 9:43b-45, (1e) Luke 17:25, (1f) Mark 10:32-34 = Matt 20:17-19 = Luke 18:31-34, (1g) Matt 26:1-2, (1h) Mark 14:21 = Matt 26:24 = Luke 22:22, (1i) Mark 14:41= Matt 26:45b,(1j) Luke 24:7

Conclusion: Many references but only a single attestation and from the Second stratum (60-80 AD).

http://wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php/017_Resurrection_of_Jesus

From the course notes of a large Catholic university's graduate theology class:

"Heaven is a Spirit state (no physical bodies abide)

Christ's and Mary's bodies are therefore not in Heaven. For one thing, Paul in 1 Cor 15 speaks of the body of the dead as transformed into a "spiritual body." No one knows exactly what he meant by this term.

Most believe that it to mean that the personal spiritual self that survives death is in continuity with the self we were while living on earth as an embodied person.

The physical Resurrection (meaning a resuscitated corpse returning to life), Ascension (of Jesus' crucified corpse), and Assumption (Mary's
corpse) into heaven did not take place.

The Ascension symbolizes the end of Jesus' earthly ministry and the beginning of the Church.

Only Luke's Gospel records it. The Assumption ties Jesus' mission to Pentecost and missionary activity of Jesus' followers The Assumption has
multiple layers of symbolism, some are related to Mary's special role as "Christ bearer" (theotokos). It does not seem fitting that Mary, the body of Jesus' Virgin-Mother (another biblically based symbol found in Luke 1) would
be derived by worms upon her death. Mary's assumption also shows God's positive regard, not only for Christ's male body, but also for female
bodies."

Amazing how this agrees with Professor Crossan and many other contemporary NT exegetes' conclusions based on attestations and stratums.

Some added thoughts:

According to Reimarus as referenced in R.B. Stewart in his introduction to the recent book, The Resurrection of Jesus, Crossan and Wright in Dialogue,

"Reimarus (1774-1779) posits that Jesus became sidetracked by embracing a political position, sought to force God's hand and that he died alone deserted by his disciples. What began as a call for repentance ended up as a misguided attempt to usher in the earthly political kingdom of God. After Jesus' failure and death, his disciples stole his body and declared his resurrection in order to maintain their financial security and ensure themselves some standing."

From: K.C. Hanson and D. E. Oakman, Palestine in the Time of Jesus, Fortress Press, 1998. p.55

"Stories circulated to the effect that Alexander of Macedonia was not only the son of Philip II, but also of the god Zeus-Ammon (Plutarch, Parallel Lives, "Alexander" 2.1-3.2); Plato was the son of Ariston and the god Apollo (Diogenes Laertius, Lives of Eminent Philosophers 3.1-2), and Augustus was the son of Octavius as well as the god Apollo (Suetonius, Lives o f the Caesars 2.4.1-7). The extraordinary character of these elites reputedly stemmed from both their divine origins and their kingroups. Their kin-groups provided one form of legitimation-political right to the throne and/or social status (thus the importance of Joseph in Matthew's genealogy). Their divine procreation provided another: their honor was divinely ascribed, and their greatness as leaders derived from divine paternity."

I don't think so. Remove the fantasy and the whole thing crumbles, doesn't it?

Reading through these posts, I am once again amazed at the amount of slack Joe Q Public cuts for belief in Jesus' existence and the laughable idea of him dying and being resurrected. The suspension of disbelief is frightening.

I spent part of the weekend watching programs on the History and Discovery channels. There was a whole lot of "Bible fare" being televised, and again, the amount of slack being cut for the Biblical fantasy is unbelievable.

I watched a show on the Exodus that spent 56 minutes offering "proof" that it "could have happened" the way the Bible said. At minute 56, we got the disclaimer that there is not a scintilla of proof available ANYWHERE to support ANY ASPECT of the Biblical account. Not the bondage, not the plagues and certainly not 40 years of wandering in the desert. Indeed, the copious historic records of the Egyptians lead any sensible person to believe the entire exodus story is a lie.

After the rationalists made their point, the religious-minded were given a final chance at damage control at minute 58, whereupon they floated the old "faith doesn't require proof" and "the lesson of the Exodus is powerful whether it happened or not" canards.

OK. If you say so. I just wonder why the disclaimer wasn't given at the beginning of the program...and I also wonder what lesson is to be drawn from the racist (Egyptians made slaves of the Hebrews. They didn't) mouse-that-roared (little Israel defeats big bad Egypt. Didn't happen, either) story when the whole thing is a lie.

On another show (this time on some religious channel), I learn that there are "at least 9 non-Biblical sources that attest to the fact that Christ lived." As expected, Josephus' name is tossed out, but there's no discussion of the fact that the texts in question are 4th-century forgeries. In fact, the TF isn't even discussed. Next, they drag out Tacitus and the often-quoted passage from his Annals. They didn't bother mentioning that the passage from Tacitus is simply Tacitus regurgitating info he got from others about the Christians. Neither do they point out the blunder that Tacitus thought "Christus" was the surname of Jesus, rather than his title.

This particular show didn't bother naming the other 7 sources. I guess they were depending on the mien of the on-screen pastor-like apologist to provide enough sincerity to make most believers nod their heads in agreement (take that!, you mean archaeologists and historians!).

In another show, I learned that Herod the Great died in 4AD. History says he died in 4BC, but I guess if you're pushing the Bible story and the flight to Egypt on your "documentary" that you need to change dates to make it all work out. It would be pretty difficult for Herod to order the slaughter of all newborns if he had been dead for 4-5 years. But then, what's 8 years among Biblical apologists, anyway?

And on and on it goes.

Does the Mendacity for Christ ever stop?

Labels & Constructs has it right - don't worship the messenger - learn, practice, and develop the message. That's the problem with all religions - they think it's all about the messenger. And then they make that messenger right and everybody else wrong. Eventually humanity will evolve into beings that learn to develop spiritually. We should take lessons from the likes of Rudolph Steiner (and Christ, Mohammed, Budda, and all the others who have expanded).

What will be written 50 years from now about WMD in Iraq? 2,000 years from now will folks be reading what Bush and Cheney said about Iraq or what someone else said? Even now they are starting to write that we really have to stay. Next they will be writing it really was the right thing to do.

If the events weren't recorded when they were supposed to have happened then they should be totally discounted. Was Julius Ceasar's assasination not recorded until 50 years after it happened? How long after Pompeii was it before it was written about? Claiming an 'oral tradition' then written down is silly.

How much of it is plain criminal activity for power and wealth??

JD,

It did not take the Catholic Church 300 years to come to the conclusion that Jesus of Nazareth was divine. The New Testament, composed entirely between AD 40 and AD 100, speaks constantly of Jesus in such terms. Here's a quote: "For in Him the whole fulness of deity dwells bodily," (Col 2:9). That one was written by St. Paul within 20 years of Jesus' death and resurrection. Clearly, the Church already believed in Jesus' divinity. The Council of Nicea, held in AD 325, established no new doctrines, but rather defended old doctrines against new dissent. The new dissent was called Arianism, and it wasn't 25 years old yet when the council was called to determine how to deal with it. Dan Brown's books might be entertaining, but they are bad sources of historical information.

You wrote that "death, resurrection, and ascension," isn't a proof of divinity, but rather "immortality without dying first." Interestingly enough, your objection isn't new or clever, but very old and worn. Passers-by taunted Jesus with it even as he hung dying: "And the people stood by, watching; but the rulers scoffed at him, saying, "He saved others; let him save himself, if he is the Christ of God, his Chosen One!" (Luke 23:35). The whole point of Christianity is that he wasn't trying to prove his divinity by dying and rising, he was SAVING US. That was his object - not some ego-trip.

It's a funny objection anyway. If death and resurrection are no proof of divinity, then I suggest you go ahead and give it a try under your own steam. You'd