Obama's Pastor

Farnaz

Thanks for the compliment. We recognise kindness in others only because we have it in ourselves. Same applies to love.

A few years ago I used to say that my body was that of a Jew and my heart that of a Christian and my soul that of a Muslim (i.e. submitted/surrendered)

Since then, I have outgrown this; having taken a year of inward contemplation. I have come to the realisation that human spirit is much larger than what we know. It encompasses the whole universe and beyond, but only if the vessel holding it allows it to explore its highest potential. All religions came to teach us this but somehow the followers boxed themselves in and assumed that their way was/is the only way. They separated themselves from the rest just as they construed that God was separate from them. Hence they mirrored their own belief; my own religion (Islam)including. But that is not the case with The God that I have come to know.

Some of the things that curbs such a human potential are: race, religion, tribe, a closed mind and oddly enough too much intellectualism, for the more the mind dominates the less the heart questions and visa versa.

In other words, the realm of the spirit is understood only through the heart. The mind handles physical stuff very well but it has to be put aside when the matter requires heart connection. Very much like cutting the pieces of wood to build a house requires a saw but from then on one has to pick up a hammer to nail the thing together. The saw would be of no more use to build that house.

Why do I say these things? I have no idea.

Khuda negahdar.
Ahmed

Ahmed,

God bless you for saying those things. You are very kind.

Farnaz

History tells us stories of men and women who have changed our country by developing ideas and using good judgement based on both the negatives and the positives they have seen and heard. These very experiences have made them stronger in their convictions that hatred, divisiveness and inaccuracies will weaken our country. Think about how many Americans were raised by parents, teachers, and pastors to think that another race was inferior to themselves. And, yet, brilliant and compassionate citizens went on to change our country...to think differently. Barak Obama has opened his eyes and ears to all the words we say and because of this he has opened his heart and mind to the posibilites of hope, change and rational thinking. This is leadership we need!

History tells us stories of men and women who have changed our country by developing ideas and using good judgement based on both the negatives and the positives they have seen and heard. These very experiences have made them stronger in their convictions that hatred, divisiveness and inaccuracies will weaken our country. Think about how many Americans were raised by parents, teachers, and pastors to think that another race was inferior to themselves. And, yet, brilliant and compassionate citizens went on to change our country...to think differently. Barak Obama has opened his eyes and ears to all the words we say and because of this he has opened his heart and mind to the posibilites of hope, change and rational thinking. This is leadership we need!

Farnaz

Shalom

Far left? What does it matter where the truth lies. Seek it from Left or right, North or South. I do not wish to be pigeon-holes. Labels put us in boxes.

Point is what was reported as being said by the said pastor. If it can be refuted that he did not say that, then I stand corrected, otherwise what I expressed stands.

Anyway its good to have a Kalimi on this forum. Now we have to find a Mizrahi, I do like them; perhaps being part Arab and in love with Morocco.

By the way, reading your account, I would have given you shelter at the cost of my own life and that is from the heart.

My quest in life is to unite opposing hearts and I will go to whatever length. To this end I have been called a fool (by my wife) but never an idiot.

Salamati - cheers :)
Ahmed

There are few Americans who would propose that Jews are "silenced" in America.
The Neocons control the President and entire government. The movie industry is controlled by Jewish filmakers and studio owners- newspapers, radio, indeed all media is filtered through the Jewish lens.

Criticism of the apartheid state of Israel is not even allowed! Look at what happened to Arun Gandhi when he dared to criticize Israel on these very boards.
He was kicked out fo the Institute of Peace that he, himself founded, just because he said that Israel should stop using the past as an excuse to oppress the Palestinians!

Farnaz is clearly not in America to make such a deluded statement.
One cannot even refer to Jews in any way that is not supremely complimentary without instant screams of "anti-semitism".
Isn't this an American blog? Has anyone seen any "silencing" of Jews on here?
Hardly. Just the opposite.

Hey Farnaz,

I thought you'd split. What's up with this moving and hiding questions? Quinn's new blog innovation?

Josh

Ahmed,

I don't disagree with you, but Mother Jones is far left, not what most would consider "objective," and indeed MJ does not pretend to be. You probably know this, but here it is.

John D. Prince,

Jews can't discuss their oppression. They can't discuss racists such as Farakhan. They can't discuss racism against them in the US or anywhere.
They are instantly silenced. Don't use us as one of your examples.

Also, black and Jewish is a false binary. There are hundreds of thousands of black Jews, to use AmeriChristian "racial" distinctions. I am brown and Jewish.

I mean no disrespect for Christian people, but there you have it.

Farnaz

Robert

I have been called many names but idiot is not one of them. Still abuse is a natural form of defense by the illiterate.

Please go read the link.then comment. It is in English after all.

Here it is again to save you searching:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article19533.htm

And please any comments, make it constructive if you can. Like the source of the article is totally wrong or Parsley never said anything like that or he meant this, that or the other. Something intelligent that we all can follow, not just calling me an idiot, coz that ain't intelligent. That's evading the reality.

Cheers.

If a Jewish person complains about their oppression or expresses just anger over Hitler’s Germany people do not consider them Anti-German? No. If a Black person expresses anger over the reality of oppression while giving examples of their unjust treatment why are they being racist? No! They have the right to express disgust over the history of the nightmare that was bestowed upon them. If we are complacent over the actions of those in the past we are doomed to repeat those injustices. I am a white guy who would argue that anyone has the absolute right, the constitutional right to express themselves and the anger they may feel over injustice, oppression, and discrimination. Those who use their freedom of speech in this manner are not acting out of racist actions. Now I have heard only the comments that Rev. Wright has made from major media clips and the conservative echo chamber on A.M. radio. From what I heard I saw nothing that was reverse racism. If this attack on Obama and Wright are the best the Republican attack machine can muster we are in a sad state of political history. The issues that matter to the Nation are being ignored, and for good reason the issues are pressing and could cost the Republican Party the national election if they were address and debated as much as the Wright issue. I smell the perfume of distraction from the flower of deceptive tactical assassins. While we wallow in debt, war, constitutional crisis, and hundreds of more important issues. We cannot allow this bullfight to continue because we the people are the bull and the current debate is the matador.

Felders-

I heard Sally Quinn on MSNBC today too.

Unfortunately- she stretched the truth so far it snapped and broke. I bet that's going to leave a bruise to the soul..

As I listen to you on MSNBC, this morning you really put things into perpestives concerning Rev. Wright. If everyone took clips from Bill Clinton, Monica, add Ms. Flowers, add Clinton saying he did not have sex with that woman, add the dress and add the other women he was involved with and seeing this over and over again, would be alarming to people. I wish you could go on all the networks especially Fox and say what you said this morning on MSNBC. I also believe just because your a member of a church doesn't mean your there every sunday. I've been a member of my church for 15 years, sometimes I might miss 3 or 4 sundays. My pastor has also tied scriptures to certain political views. When Jessie Jackson made racial statements while he was Bill Clinton's spiritual adviser no one rode his statement to death nor we haven't heard much about the invitation Mr. Wright got to the White House from the Clintons. Americans,listen to the whole sermon and make your decision about Mr. Wright. I do believe the media has to move on from this but it does help Hillary and McCain.

This is to the first post from ahmed from bahrain...

Here is your quote;
"Amazing in a supposedly free society that Wright's remarks is replayed by every US news media and tv channel, yet MacCain's spiritual leader Parsley spews even more venomous charge and no US media demands any explanation from MacCain. It is ignored."

Do you not see how rediculous you sound...
Parsley so called "venomous charge" was against the Catholic church not against a race of people or his own country, how can you even compare the two? You must be an idiot!!!

Amazing in a supposedly free society that Wright's remarks is replayed by every US news media and tv channel, yet MacCain's spiritual leader Parsley spews even more venomous charge and no US media demands any explanation from MacCain. It is ignored.

How is that such double standards apply in a supposedly free society? I guess its free for all when it comes to bashing Muslims just because they are blatantly Muslims but no person can criticise what US policy has done in the Middle East for the last 50 years. That is unpatriotic.

Here read it for yourself:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article19533.htm

and if we only practiced, if we only spent as much effort and energy cultivating the quality of God, as we do towards fueling and titillating our intellect.... how much more evolved we would all be.

GOD IS LOVE:

meditate, cultivate, be disciplined in assimilating loving thoughts, loving words, loving deeds.

Every argument for the invasion of Iraq has fallen by the wayside - what does the occupation of Iraq have to do with wars with Iran and North Korea?? Other than being a good staging area for the future invasion of Iran?? And the price of oil keeps going up, rather than way down as predicted by Bush war policy architects.

Besides, the beer is much cheaper in New Orleans and the natives are friendlier. It's a national treasure and strategic seaport. And just on general principle alone, well worth restoring - and perhaps even saving from further devastation if the civil engineers will do the job right this time. It is part of the USA after all.....the argument to let it flounder is utter nonsense.

Someone is going to sell us the oil in Iraq, so no fears there. Perhaps it will even be the people that actually own the oil - the Iraqis themselves!

Political pundits are already placing the debacle in Iraq among the top 5 worst political decisions ever made - throughout history. Now that is quite an accomplishment and a rare list of companions indeed. Certainly worth a measly trillion bucks and counting.........

A trillion dollars is a bargain considering what nuclear war vs Iran and North Korea would cost.

Teddy's "Carry a Big (now expensive) Stick" still holds today.
from :
http://money.cnn.com/2007/10/24/news/economy/cbo_testimony/index.htm

" The wars in Iraq, Afghanistan and anti terrorist efforts abroad could cost the country $2.4 trillion over the next ten years, according to a report Wednesday.

The money, over 70 percent of which would go to support operations in Iraq, includes the estimated $600 billion spent since 2001, Congressional Budget Office Director Peter Orszag said in testimony before the House Budget Committee. That estimate includes projected interest, since the government is borrowing most of the funds required.

The $2.4 trillion would pay to keep 75,000 troops deployed overseas from 2013 to 2017. About 210,000 troops are currently deployed. It does not include the Pentagon's normal spending, which in 2007 is estimated to be about $450 billion."

And it is Allah (and his buddy Mo) and his Sunni vs. Shiite 800 year blood feud that are keeping us in Iraq. Iran's (more Allah) continued war rhetoric is also not helping the Peace efforts nor our efforts to reduce defense spending.
And the tens of thousands of dead and maimed in Iraq are due to this same bloody feud. (4000 US troops and 82,109 – 89,605 Iraqi civilians http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ )

And just think a simple, inexpensive deflawing of Islam would solve all these problems. Here again are the four major flaws/errors in Islam:
1. Belief in "pretty/ugly wingie thingies".

2. Belief that an hallucinating, illiterate Arab did actually talk to the "pretty Gabriel" in the hot "Gabe" cave and therein received the warmongering and anti-female words and resultant laws now listed in the koran.

3. That Sunnis are superior to Shiites in all aspects of life. And Shiites think the same way about Sunnis.

4. That Islam is perfect and the koran inherently condones no sin even though the 24/7, 800 year-old blood feud between Sunnis and Shiites gives significant credence that greed, hate, suicides, assassinations, maiming, and murder are condoned by the koran. Having multiple wives also gives significant credence to the sins of rape, adultery, lust and polygamy. The condoned treatment of these wives gives credence that the koran allows the sins of hatred, anger and greed.

Or we could simply send Allah a bill for the trillion. His oil reserves in Iraq (112 billion barrels) at $100/barrel should cover it nicely.

I wonder how much oil there is under New Orleans????

Observer12 wrote:

What I'd really like to see is a considered essay on the dimensions of OnFaith, what is seeks to accomplish, the interrelations among religion, nation, politics, ethnicity, etc. Questions deriving from such an essay might be interesting, indded.

Amen, Observer, Amen.

The question is why we continue to revisit this question.

Time to move on. Should any facts reveal themselves regarding Wright, Obama, et al., or should I say if the media chooses to reveal them, then we can return to the question.

Meacham and Quinn would do well to consider a different topic, pose another question.

What I'd really like to see is a considered essay on the dimensions of OnFaith, what is seeks to accomplish, the interrelations among religion, nation, politics, ethnicity, etc. Questions deriving from such an essay might be interesting, indded.

Gary my Friend

All of us free-thinking Americans can make up our own minds as to whether spending
4,000 lives of our American Brothers and Sisters
5 trillion dollars that could have wiped out Cancer on the earth
120.000 Iraqi lives
laying waste to political and economic stability in the Middle East
Opening Access for Al queda to come into Iraq pretty well uncontested, when they weren't there before

has been good for America (never mind the world) or bad.

65 percent of your wise fellow Americans think it was a tragic decision.

So basically your argument Mr. James is that since it is just your typical leftist rant, Pastor Wrights comments are perfectly acceptable.

Sorry I don't buy it. Nor do I buy the noxious idea that we should have just left 3 divisions on the Arabian peninsula to face 9 plus in Iraq. And taken our troops home. And almost certainly guaranteed we'd have had to go back in and kick Saddam out yet again.

There are many aspects to this complicated case, and here are two:

Theoretical and Practical

Theoretically, it is clearly possible for a Preacher to be beyond the moral pale and deserve the condemnation of society AND his parishioners.

You have to decide whether Rev Wright is Wrong on this dimension.

Practically, there is little doubt tht Mr Taylor is Emphatically Correct in saying that the duty of a Preacher is to speak Truth to Power, not toady up to power. This is surely what Jesus did, and it got him crucified.

The sins of Racism are of an immense scale. Doesn't mean we whites have to be paralysed with guilt about the sins of our fathers, but it means we have a moral duty to come to grips with them.

The SINS of our country in going to WAR without threat are similarly heinous, and a reflection of our sorry history of insensitivity to those parts of the world that are MUCH poorer and less powerful than we are. The arrogance and ignorance of the Bush administration in waging this war is a Sin, if you believe in God, and if you believe in a God who punishes Sin, it is surely a Sin that such a God would punish (damn) America for.

So, the nerve of Rev Wright to speak to truth. To power, nonetheless.

Some one please tell me where I can go to copy and paste my responses from the last time this question or one very like it was asked.

"The Associated Press
Tuesday, March 25, 2008; 12:18 PM

GAITHERSBURG, Md. (AP) -- Montgomery County police have charged a former minister at a Gaithersburg church with sexually abusing a female youth choir member.

Police say 47-year-old Timothy Chun-Chock Mann worked at the First Baptist Church on West Diamond Avenue when the alleged abuse began in 1992 and continued until 1996.

Police have accused Mann of abusing the youth choir member mostly in his church office. The choir member was 14 when the alleged abuse began.

Mann now lives in Hoover, Alabama, and works as a choir director in Birmingham. He has been charged with third-degree sex offense and child abuse.

Mann turned himself in to Montgomery County police March 20 and was released on $100,000 bond."

I would hope that America has more fear of the ACTIONS committed by priests/ reverends/ ministers who abuse underage children within the sanctuary of the Lord. Rev. Wright has NOTHING on these types of monsters who, strange to say, receive a lot more support from their congregations than would seem reasonable considering the treachery of their crimes. Is it more acceptable to be a child molestor as a priest in America? There was more of a public outcry about Wright, who in so many ways, was just speaking the truth for many Black Americans.

thanks alot athena for your links to the speeches by the pastor wright-

im going to link them to the new post 'the pastor as prohpet' and of course, i'll credit you

henry- hey henry! thanks also for the link to james cone-

anonymous- apparently you didn't read fee's post or you would have realized it was an article from the huffington post-

We're back to this topic again? Sigh...

Continue flagellating the expired equine.

Frankie-

Your dad lived in Switzerland for most of his life and never was a mentor or father figure to an US presidential candidate.

Maybe you should title your next book "Just Crazy".

When Senator Obama's preacher thundered about racism and injustice Obama suffered smear-by-association. But when my late father -- Religious Right leader Francis Schaeffer -- denounced America and even called for the violent overthrow of the US government, he was invited to lunch with presidents Ford, Reagan and Bush, Sr.

Every Sunday thousands of right wing white preachers (following in my father's footsteps) rail against America's sins from tens of thousands of pulpits. They tell us that America is complicit in the "murder of the unborn," has become "Sodom" by coddling gays, and that our public schools are sinful places full of evolutionists and sex educators hell-bent on corrupting children. They say, as my dad often did, that we are, "under the judgment of God." They call America evil and warn of immanent destruction. By comparison Obama's minister's shouted "controversial" comments were mild. All he said was that God should damn America for our racism and violence and that no one had ever used the N-word about Hillary Clinton.

Dad and I were amongst the founders of the Religious right. In the 1970s and 1980s, while Dad and I crisscrossed America denouncing our nation's sins instead of getting in trouble we became darlings of the Republican Party. (This was while I was my father's sidekick before I dropped out of the evangelical movement altogether.) We were rewarded for our "stand" by people such as Congressman Jack Kemp, the Fords, Reagan and the Bush family. The top Republican leadership depended on preachers and agitators like us to energize their rank and file. No one called us un-American.

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Buzz up!on Yahoo!Consider a few passages from my father's immensely influential America-bashing book A Christian Manifesto. It sailed under the radar of the major media who, back when it was published in 1980, were not paying particular attention to best-selling religious books. Nevertheless it sold more than a million copies.

Here's Dad writing in his chapter on civil disobedience:

If there is a legitimate reason for the use of force [against the US government]... then at a certain point force is justifiable.

And this:

In the United States the materialistic, humanistic world view is being taught exclusively in most state schools... There is an obvious parallel between this and the situation in Russia [the USSR]. And we really must not be blind to the fact that indeed in the public schools in the United States all religious influence is as forcibly forbidden as in the Soviet Union....

Then this:

There does come a time when force, even physical force, is appropriate... A true Christian in Hitler's Germany and in the occupied countries should have defied the false and counterfeit state. This brings us to a current issue that is crucial for the future of the church in the United States, the issue of abortion... It is time we consciously realize that when any office commands what is contrary to God's law it abrogates it's authority. And our loyalty to the God who gave this law then requires that we make the appropriate response in that situation...

Was any conservative political leader associated with Dad running for cover? Far from it. Dad was a frequent guest of the Kemps, had lunch with the Fords, stayed in the White House as their guest, he met with Reagan, helped Dr. C. Everett Koop become Surgeon General. (I went on the 700 Club several times to generate support for Koop).

Dad became a hero to the evangelical community and a leading political instigator. When Dad died in 1984 everyone from Reagan to Kemp to Billy Graham lamented his passing publicly as the loss of a great American. Not one Republican leader was ever asked to denounce my dad or distanced himself from Dad's statements.

Take Dad's words and put them in the mouth of Obama's preacher (or in the mouth of any black American preacher) and people would be accusing that preacher of treason. Yet when we of the white Religious Right denounced America white conservative Americans and top political leaders, called our words "godly" and "prophetic" and a "call to repentance."

We Republican agitators of the mid 1970s to the late 1980s were genuinely anti-American in the same spirit that later Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson (both followers of my father) were anti-American when they said God had removed his blessing from America on 9/11, because America accepted gays. Falwell and Robertson recanted but we never did.

My dad's books denouncing America and comparing the USA to Hitler are still best sellers in the "respectable" evangelical community and he's still hailed as a prophet by many Republican leaders. When Mike Huckabee was recently asked by Katie Couric to name one book he'd take with him to a desert island, besides the Bible, he named Dad's Whatever Happened to the Human Race? a book where Dad also compared America to Hitler's Germany.

The hypocrisy of the right denouncing Obama, because of his minister's words, is staggering. They are the same people who argue for the right to "bear arms" as "insurance" to limit government power. They are the same people that (in the early 1980s roared and cheered when I called down damnation on America as "fallen away from God" at their national meetings where I was keynote speaker, including the annual meeting of the ultraconservative Southern Baptist convention, and the religious broadcasters that I addressed.

Today we have a marriage of convenience between the right wing fundamentalists who hate Obama, and the "progressive" Clintons who are playing the race card through their own smear machine. As Jane Smiley writes in the Huffington Post "[The Clinton's] are, indeed, now part of the 'vast right wing conspiracy.' (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jane-smiley/im-already-against-the-n_b_90628.html )

Both the far right Republicans and the stop-at-nothing Clintons are using the "scandal" of Obama's preacher to undermine the first black American candidate with a serious shot at the presidency. Funny thing is, the racist Clinton/Far Right smear machine proves that Obama's minister had a valid point. There is plenty to yell about these days.

Frank Schaeffer is a writer and author of "CRAZY FOR GOD-How I Grew Up As One Of The Elect, Helped Found The Religious Right, And Lived To Take All (Or Almost All) Of It Back

James Cone DOES INDEED Preach Hate

IN the video clip cited below, James Cone, founder of Black Liberation Theology,
says that all true Christians should
HATE INJUSTICE.
Imagine.

He also makes the outlandish statement that people in power tend to be more concerned with preserving their power than in Eliminating Injustice.
Imagine.

I didn't hear him say black people should hate black people.

the clip is

BLACK THEOLOGY of LIBERATION

A Conversation with James Cone:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1X5sZ6Q4Fw

Indeed, there are none so blind as those who will not see. One cannot stop the cycle of hate if one makes excuses for hate. One must step outside that vicious circle and say first to ones friends and family "Enough is Enough" If you make excuses for hatred you empower not just the haters you are willing to tolerate but all haters every where. The excuse you allow for one will be the excuse another provides you.

GaryD,

Sproul wrote what books?

What bible school did he get his PhD's from? In what subject?

Maybe the On Faith blog owners should sponsor a debate? And Sproul apparently has never been a guest on On Faith. Why is that?

And consider the superstitions throughout the ages. Until about 200 years ago, people still believed in charms, rabbit "foots", rosaries, holy water, broken mirrors, devils, demons, pretty wingie thingies, wine to blood, bread to bodies, ghosts, goblins, and vampires. Then we became educated and started to remove these superstitions from life to include religion. The cleasing continues.

BEAUTIFUL BCANDALOUS NIGHT

Go on up to the mountain of mercy
To the crimson perpetual tide
Kneel down on the shore
Be thirsty no more
Go under and be purified

Follow Christ to the holy mountain
Sinner sorry and wrecked by the fall
Cleanse your heart and your soul
In the fountain that flowed
For you and for me and for all

At the wonderful, tragic, mysterious tree
On that beautiful scandalous night you and me
Were atoned by His blood and forever washed white
On that beautiful, scandalous night

On the hillside, you were delivered
At the foot of the cross justified
And Your spirit restored
By the river that poured
From our blessed Savior's side

Go on up to the mountain of mercy
To the crimson perpetual tide
Kneel down on the shore
Be thirsty no more
Go under and be purified

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qahF83maIo

All have sinned and are falling short of the honour and glory which God bestows and receives.
All are justified and made upright and in right standing with God, freely by His grace (His unmerited favor and mercy), through the redemption which is provided in Christ Jesus, Whom God put forward (before the eyes of all) as a mercy seat and propitiation by His blood (the cleansing and life-giving sacrifice of atonement and reconciliation, to be received) through faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in His divine forbearance He had passed over and ignored former sins without punishment.

I teach American Politics at a community college. Our student body is quite diverse. I have been searching for a way to get a discussion going on indiviual's perceptions and concerns about other ethinic groups, things of real substance that we have been hiding with a shallow politeness. Of the many wonderful things Senator Obama did in that historic speech, one so important, he made it possible for us to have the discussion we have been needing to have for so long. Resentments fester into gaping wounds. We need to get the resentments out on the table and talk.

While I can get angry with many of his nit-picking critics, I also feel sad for them. They don't have the ability to recognize something that is far more than the usual. It is so much their loss.

In my 65 years, the speech by Senator Obama and a person like Senator Obama, I really don't think I have heard or seen before.

A Time To Forgive,

You are missing the point. Blacks live in a society that has condoned the degradation of their forbearers. Rev. Wright's was born into this country as a second-class citizen. If he was born in the south (I don't know if he was) he was born into apartied. His parents were probably born into poverty. His grandparents were probably born into grinding poverty. His great grandparents were probably slaves.

If you listen to the whole videos that Athena posted you will see that although Rev. Wright gives voice to the pain, anger and suspicion that exists in the black community, he also counsels against letting it corrode his congregation's dignity. "Hate begets hate," he says. He illuminates "the insanity of the cycle of violence and the cycle of hatred."

Rev. Wright connects the injustice visited on America on 9/11 to the injustices committed by America. I for one don't believe in karma or divine justice, but there's no doubt in my mind that American foreign policy has treated many in the Middle East as pawns, from protecting Saudi and Egyptian dictatorships to our dishonest brokerage of the Arab-Israeli conflict.

America is a far cry from its promise and its ideals. That's the message of Rev. Wright. Funny enough, it's also the message that Mr. Obama sent. He just cleaned it up for us white folk.

Trust in God is protection :
oh grow up, will ya?

Both Mr Obama and Hillary Clinton had sought the backing of Mr Richardson, the only Hispanic US governor.

"You are a once-in-a-lifetime leader," Mr Richardson told Mr Obama at the rally. "Above all, you will be a president who brings this nation together."

He also said that Mr Obama's speech on race was the beginning of a new dialogue.

"He understands that clearly by only bringing people together and by bridging our differences can we succeed together as Americans," Mr Richardson said.

"His words are one of a courageous thoughtful leader who understands that a house divided against itself cannot stand. And, after eight years of George W Bush, we desperately need that kind of leader."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/

After 20 years of sitting in the pews listening to Jeremiah Wright, calling him your spiritual advisor and mentor, writing a books based on his sermons, allowing him to marry you, and baptize your children, he becomes more than a pastor you hardly know.

What did Obama and his family listen to in those pews for 20 years. Jeremiah Wright spewing the hatred of his own mentor, James Cone.

James Cone's Black Liberation theology

The theologian explains:

Christ is black therefore not because of some cultural or psychological need of black people, but because and only because Christ really enters into our world where the poor were despised and the
black are, disclosing that he is with them enduring humiliation and pain and transforming oppressed slaves into liberating servants.

Rather than viewing God as a sovereign being who does as he wills according to his purposes, Cone insists God must do what we want him to do, or we must reject him.

What the black community wants, Cone says, is for God to assist in its goal of destroying "the white enemy."

Black theology refuses to accept a God who is not identified totally with the goals of the black community. If God is not for us and against white people, then he is a murderer, and we had better kill him.
The task of black theology is to kill gods who do not belong to the black community

... Black theology will accept only the love of God which participates in the destruction of the white enemy. What we need is the divine love as expressed in Black Power, which is the power of black people
to destroy their oppressors here and now by any means at their disposal. Unless God is participating in this holy activity, we must reject his love.

"If Rev. Wright is incorrect on some facts it's along lines that are widespread in the black community and are based on real past injustices (like the Tuskeegee syphallis experiments)."

************************
That is no reason to harbor "hatred." Especially by those that were not even the ones effected by it.

The men in the Tuskegee syphilis experiment received an apology and financial compensation from the Government for their pain and suffering. So why do blacks in 2008 think that they have a right to carry a “grudge?”

The USA’s justice system recognized their injustice and compensated them for it, so how much compensation is enough?

Athena,

Thank you. The more I see, the more I know that there's no there there. If Rev. Wright is inflammatory it's to inflame the passion for righteousness. If Rev. Wright is incorrect on some facts it's along lines that are widespread in the black community and are based on real past injustices (like the Tuskeegee syphallis experiments).

There is obviously much to recommend Rev. Wright and I can see how he must have been a profoundly positive influence on Mr. Obama.

That's also the biggest chunk in his armor, against divisive rethorics.

Obama's biggest asset is that he is half-black.

And the full version of the "God D*mn America" speech:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvMbeVQj6Lw

Judge for yourself.

Here's the full sermon from 9/16/01. Please watch the whole thing, rather than just the 10-second sound bite.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOdlnzkeoyQ

Victoria

I am very impressed that you know how the date of Easter is determined.

Concerned Why would you believe those gentlemen would hold their own now when they previously have not done so? Sproul has at least 2 doctorates one in philosophy and extensive knowledge of the relevant time periods. Why do you assume off the top of your head that everyone who holds with the classical interpretation of scripture hasn't even considered anything beyond what scripture itself has to say?

Could it possibly be that your own narrow minded prejudices are showing?

"Based on the interchanges on this site, I would say that the problem is that the born-again often conduct themselves like Johnny One-Note. Having become aware of the truth of Jesus Christ, they talk about nothing else and refuse to accept polite disagreement...........So I'd say it's not a Christian thing at all...."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It couldn't be that maybe it is not the Christian's who has a problem could it?

Herein lies the problem, one you and others group all Christians together and condemn us for voicing our beliefs and two after you judge us you demean us by saying we are not "Christian."

Thanks but no thanks, why you or anyone would think that Christians want to keep wasting their time on spreading the good news on “deaf ears” is beyond me. There are too many others that have a heartfelt desire to hear the truth of the gospels.

GaryD and Victoria,

Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, all On Faith panelists, would hold their own against anyone. Why? Because they have done the research unlike your "experts" who have not gone beyond the 200 pages of the NT or the "hallucinated based" koran.

Once again, Happy Bunny Day since Easter is simply more Christian fiction.

To wit again:

Some facts:

From an analyses of the documents by many contemporary NT exegetes:

The Resurrection is "wishful thinking" myth: i.e. it was added to make Jesus akin to the Caesars and Greek half gods/half men.

(1a) Mark 8:31-33 = Matt 16:2l-23 = Luke 9:22, (1b) Mark 9:9b = Matt 17:9b, (1c) Mark 9:12b = Matt 17:12b, (1d) Mark 9:30-32= Matt 17:22-23 = Luke 9:43b-45, (1e) Luke 17:25, (1f) Mark 10:32-34 = Matt 20:17-19 = Luke 18:31-34, (1g) Matt 26:1-2, (1h) Mark 14:21 = Matt 26:24 = Luke 22:22, (1i) Mark 14:41= Matt 26:45b,(1j) Luke 24:7

(many references but only a single attestation and from the Second stratum (60-80 AD).

http://wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php/017_Resurrection_of_Jesus

From the course notes of a large Catholic university's graduate theology class:

"Heaven is a Spirit state (no physical bodies present).

Christ's and Mary's bodies are therefore not in Heaven. For one thing, Paul in 1 Cor 15 speaks of the body of the dead as transformed into a "spiritual body." No one knows exactly what he meant by this term.

Most believe that it to mean that the personal spiritual self that survives death is in continuity with the self we were while living on earth as an embodied person.

The physical Resurrection (meaning a resuscitated corpse returning to life), Ascension (of Jesus' crucified corpse), and Assumption (Mary's
corpse) into heaven did not take place.

The Ascension symbolizes the end of Jesus' earthly ministry and the beginning of the Church.

Only Luke's Gospel records it. The Assumption ties Jesus' mission to Pentecost and missionary activity of Jesus' followers The Assumption has
multiple layers of symbolism, some are related to Mary's special role as "Christ bearer" (theotokos). It does not seem fitting that Mary, the body of Jesus' Virgin-Mother (another biblically based symbol found in Luke 1) would
be derived by worms upon her death. Mary's assumption also shows God's positive regard, not only for Christ's male body, but also for female
bodies."

Amazing how this agrees with Professor Crossan and many other contemporary NT exegetes' conclusions based on attestations and stratums.

Some added tidbits:

According to Reimarus as referenced in R.B. Stewart in his introduction to the recent book, The Resurrection of Jesus, Crossan and Wright in Dialogue,

"Reimarus (1774-1779) posits that Jesus became sidetracked by embracing a political position, sought to force God's hand and that he died alone deserted by his disciples. What began as a call for repentance ended up as a misguided attempt to usher in the earthly political kingdom of God. After Jesus' failure and death, his disciples stole his body and declared his resurrection in order to maintain their financial security and ensure themselves some standing."

From: K.C. Hanson and D. E. Oakman, Palestine in the Time of Jesus, Fortress Press, 1998. p.55

"Stories circulated to the effect that Alexander of Macedonia was not only the son of Philip II, but also of the god Zeus-Ammon (Plutarch, Parallel Lives, "Alexander" 2.1-3.2); Plato was the son of Ariston and the god Apollo (Diogenes Laertius, Lives of Eminent Philosophers 3.1-2), and Augustus was the son of Octavius as well as the god Apollo (Suetonius, Lives o f the Caesars 2.4.1-7). The extraordinary character of these elites reputedly stemmed from both their divine origins and their kingroups. Their kin-groups provided one form of legitimation-political right to the throne and/or social status (thus the importance of Joseph in Matthew's genealogy). Their divine procreation provided another: their honor was divinely ascribed, and their greatness as leaders derived from divine paternity."

Gary D & Angela,
I didn't catch the context of your comment about Christians becoming unpopular with their families. Based on the interchanges on this site, I would say that the problem is that the born-again often conduct themselves like Johnny One-Note. Having become aware of the truth of Jesus Christ, they talk about nothing else and refuse to accept polite disagreement.
Neither of you do this, by the way; even if you do generally see Jesus Christ and the Bible as answers to any question, you both seem to address the actual comments people make.

Of course, on this site there are plenty of non-Christians who post repetitively. They are at least as unpopular as any Christian. It is easy and mostly excusable to talk without listening here online, but it gets old fast in personal interaction.
So I'd say it's not a Christian thing at all....

TO ALL OF OUR CHRISTIAN FRIENDS ON THIS BLOG

PLEASE ACCEPT MY HEARTFELT WISH FOR A JOYOUS
EASTER

:)

Concerned you want me to list every Catholic theolgians views on bodily reesurrection for the last fifty years. Or literally thousands of people outside the thirtty or forty if that allied with the Jesus seminarians?

I'll five you one group just of the top of my head, Ligonier Ministries. Sproul would Have Crossan turned every which way but lose in under 5 minutes.

GaryD,

Typical of you i.e. statements with no references to support said statements.

Happy Bunny Day!!!!

Kyle wrote, "Careful what you wish for :)." March 20, 2008 6:50 PM

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I accept nothing of my own accord; my desires and wishes are in the hands of God whom I trust explicitly. He holds the keys to my wishes, desires, and wants, and as it is written in the following scripture I will not fear because the things that I wish for that are not "good" he will withhold from me.

Psalm 84:11, {11} For the LORD God is a sun and shield: the LORD will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly.

So if it is not good, God will keep me from it.

If Obama were really interested in leading this country to change, to justice, he would have left that church last year, and denounced, denounced
Rev. Wright's racist views, and the racist views of any other associate. He has shown himself to be nothing more than a garden variety ambitious politician. America deserves, and needs a President who we can trust to speak for all of us.

Concerned give it up The Jesus seminarians represent about 1 percent of modern Christian exegetes and the ever modernizing Catholic church isn't much better. And is in fact all over the place on this subject.

"Lo, a shadow of horror is risen
In eternity unknown, unprolific,
Self-closed all-repeling -
What deamon has formed this abominable void,
This soul shattering vacuum?
Some said "it is Reason".
But unknown, abstracted, brooding, secret,
The dark power hid."

(obligatory quotation :)

AtomicWarBaby:
Thou shall not invoke Asimov's name in vain :).
How about "Nightfall"?
http://doctord.dyndns.org:8000/Stories/Nightfall.htm
How is that not a religious story?
It's about a mass epiphany, about the boundary of the blue sky disappearing and nothing separating you from the other end of the universe, vast wuthering cosmic winds of void, sweeping the grounds you walk upon.
Careful what you wish for :).

Angela, GaryD and "He Has Risen" (no he has not),

Happy Bunny Day to you since Easter did not happen!!

Some facts:

From an analyses of the documents by many contemporary NT exegetes:

The Resurrection is fiction i.e. it was added to make Jesus akin to the Caesars and Greek half gods/half men (1a) Mark 8:31-33 = Matt 16:2l-23 = Luke 9:22, (1b) Mark 9:9b = Matt 17:9b, (1c) Mark 9:12b = Matt 17:12b, (1d) Mark 9:30-32= Matt 17:22-23 = Luke 9:43b-45, (1e) Luke 17:25, (1f) Mark 10:32-34 = Matt 20:17-19 = Luke 18:31-34, (1g) Matt 26:1-2, (1h) Mark 14:21 = Matt 26:24 = Luke 22:22, (1i) Mark 14:41= Matt 26:45b,(1j) Luke 24:7 (many references but only a single attestation and from the Second stratum (60-80 AD).

http://wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php/017_Resurrection_of_Jesus

From the course notes of a large Catholic university's graduate theology class:

"Heaven is a Spirit state (no physical bodies present).

Christ's and Mary's bodies are therefore not in Heaven. For one thing, Paul in 1 Cor 15 speaks of the body of the dead as transformed into a "spiritual body." No one knows exactly what he meant by this term.

Most believe that it to mean that the personal spiritual self that survives death is in continuity with the self we were while living on earth as an embodied person.

The physical Resurrection (meaning a resuscitated corpse returning to life), Ascension (of Jesus' crucified corpse), and Assumption (Mary's
corpse) into heaven did not take place.

The Ascension symbolizes the end of Jesus' earthly ministry and the beginning of the Church.

Only Luke's Gospel records it. The Assumption ties Jesus' mission to Pentecost and missionary activity of Jesus' followers The Assumption has
multiple layers of symbolism, some are related to Mary's special role as "Christ bearer" (theotokos). It does not seem fitting that Mary, the body of Jesus' Virgin-Mother (another biblically based symbol found in Luke 1) would
be derived by worms upon her death. Mary's assumption also shows God's positive regard, not only for Christ's male body, but also for female
bodies."

Amazing how this agrees with Professor Crossan and many other contemporary NT exegetes' conclusions based on attestations and stratums.

Some added tidbits:

According to Reimarus as referenced in R.B. Stewart in his introduction to the recent book, The Resurrection of Jesus, Crossan and Wright in Dialogue,

"Reimarus (1774-1779) posits that Jesus became sidetracked by embracing a political position, sought to force God's hand and that he died alone deserted by his disciples. What began as a call for repentance ended up as a misguided attempt to usher in the earthly political kingdom of God. After Jesus' failure and death, his disciples stole his body and declared his resurrection in order to maintain their financial security and ensure themselves some standing."

From: K.C. Hanson and D. E. Oakman, Palestine in the Time of Jesus, Fortress Press, 1998. p.55

"Stories circulated to the effect that Alexander of Macedonia was not only the son of Philip II, but also of the god Zeus-Ammon (Plutarch, Parallel Lives, "Alexander" 2.1-3.2); Plato was the son of Ariston and the god Apollo (Diogenes Laertius, Lives of Eminent Philosophers 3.1-2), and Augustus was the son of Octavius as well as the god Apollo (Suetonius, Lives o f the Caesars 2.4.1-7). The extraordinary character of these elites reputedly stemmed from both their divine origins and their kingroups. Their kin-groups provided one form of legitimation-political right to the throne and/or social status (thus the importance of Joseph in Matthew's genealogy). Their divine procreation provided another: their honor was divinely ascribed, and their greatness as leaders derived from divine paternity."

VERNAL EQUINOX

Equinox:

From Medieval Latin aequinoxium, from Latin aequinoctium : aequi-, equi- + nox, noct-, night, via french équinoxe.

Translated literally, equinox means “equal night”.

March 20 (March 21 in some years) is not only an indicator of the changing seasons, is significant for astronomical reasons. When the Sun crossed directly over the Earth's equator. This moment is known as the vernal equinox in the Northern Hemisphere. For the Southern Hemisphere, this is the moment of the autumnal equinox.

Day and night are about equal in length all over the world during the equinoxes, because the sun is positioned above the equator.

Generations have recognized the vernal equinox for thousands of years. There are different rituals and traditions surrounding the coming of spring.

For many, the basic reason was that their food supplies would soon be restored.

In Christianity the date is significant because Easter always falls on the first Sunday after the first full moon after the vernal equinox.

The Egyptians also built the Great Sphinx so that it points directly toward the rising Sun on the day of the vernal equinox.

The vernal equinox, is also known as "the first point of Aries," is the point at which the sun appears to cross the celestial equator from south to north.

The Vernal Equinox is a time of renewal, both in Nature and in Man.

It is believed by many ancient cultures, that the coming of "spring" removes any negative energy accumulated over the dark winter months and prepares the home for the positive growing energy of spring and summer.

At this time, the amount of dark and light is balanced, twelve hours of each, day and night.

It is a moment of equilibrium in the year.

The Vernal Equinox used to be considered the beginning of the Pagan New Year. It was a time of joy called forth by the resurrection of the "Light of the World" (sun god) from the underworld of the winter, from where he arose to join his goddess Easter (Easter is named after the ancient German goddess of spring - Easter).

All This finds its primitive origins in earlier European and Middle Eastern cultures, all of which had major festivals, usually to do with resurrection and/or release from bondage, based around the vernal equinox.

But for thousands of years before the Christian era, the Vernal Equinox signaled the beginning of the season of rebirth, the resurrection of nature and of many an ancient pagan god.

Babylonians and Assyrians placed greater importance on the Equinoxes than the solstices. The most important festival in Babylonia was the New Year, which occurred at the Spring equinox.

"The most significant ancient religious structure for the Jewish people (and later Christians as well), was Solomon's temple at Jerusalem, oriented to the Equinox sunrise. Each Spring Equinox, at the time of the ancient agricultural festival of sowing, sunlight was allowed to enter the length of an open passage from the doorway of the temple over the high altar and into the Holy of Holies. It is noted that, "There is evidence ... that the entrance of the sunlight on the morning of the Spring Equinox formed part of the ceremonial. The priest being in the Holy Place, the worshippers outside, with their backs to the sun, could see the high priest by the sunlight reflected from the jewels of his garment".

I am a oastor who preaches weekly.
It's absurd to hold anyone in my congregation accountable for what I say in the pulpit. I alone am responsible.

Can anyone believe anything that Obama says? I am starting to wonder. Does he really say what is convenient and what he thinks he should say to a given audience? I really have lost ALL respect for the senator if the following is really true. I will verify it for myself. But if it is true ... have I been wrong about the young senator from Illinois!

****************************************
http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/03/20/ferraro-offended-by-comparison-to-pastor-wright/

Obama also discussed the racial views of his white grandmother Tuesday, a topic he revisited Thursday in an interview with 610 WIP, Philadelphia Sports Radio. In the interview, Obama denied his grandmother held racial prejudices and described her as a “typical white person.”

“The point I was making was not that my grandmother harbors any racial animosity — she doesn’t,” he said. “But she is a typical white person who, you know, if she sees somebody on the street that she doesn’t know there is a reaction. That has been bred into our experiences that don’t go away and that sometimes come out in the wrong way.”

But Obama described his grandmother Tuesday as a woman who was at times fearful of black men.

“I can no more disown (Wright) than I can disown my white grandmother, a woman who helped raise me, a woman who sacrificed again and again for me, a woman who loves me as much as she loves anything in this world, but a woman who once confessed her fear of black men who passed her by on the street, and who on more than one occasion has uttered racial or ethnic stereotypes that made me cringe,” he said.

Freestinker sez:

"Life of Brian party ... my house, Easter Sunday!

.... Always look on the bright side of life!"

I'll be there in spirit...me and the Holy Sphincter!

To: GRATEFUL ATTITUDE

Always know that you're never alone; if you have surrendered your life to Christ, he's always there especially in times or sorrow. Matthew 5:30-10; 3"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 4Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted. 5Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth. 6Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled. 7Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy. 8Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God. 9Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God. 10Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Isaiah 61:1-3; 1 The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has anointed me to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners, to proclaim the year of the LORD's favor and the day of vengeance of our God, to comfort all who mourn,
3 and provide for those who grieve in Zion— to bestow on them a crown of beauty instead of ashes, the oil of gladness instead of mourning,
and a garment of praise instead of a spirit of despair. They will be called oaks of righteousness, a planting of the LORD for the display of his splendor.
HE HAS NOT LEFT YOU NOR FORSAKEN; I WILL PRAY FOR YOU AS I'VE BEEN JUST WHERE YOU ARE. YOU HAVE THE HANDS OF THE LORD LOVING YOU; CONFORTING YOU; CAST ALL YOUR BURDENS ON HIM.

Angela :

TO HE HAS RISEN:

"THANK YOU AND TO YOU AND YOUR FAMILY ALSO HAVE A WONDERFUL "RESURRECTION DAY""
~~~~~~~~~~~~

Thank you for your post, it made me cry, really.

I haven't been very forgiving lately fro some deep hurts/pain. But I just this morning after thinking/praying on the matter came to terms that I need to stop being that way, so I have resolved to open my heart to reconciliation through forgiveness.

BTW, no family for Easter this year but the time alone will allow me time to reflect and heal some.

I'm sorry I can't post anymore now, but
enjoy your family. Tomorrow is not promised to anyone in life.

GD, "One thing we Christians should remember is that the Easter Season marks no only a day of Joy but of sorry for you see while some of the Jews (by no means all) cried crucify him and some of the Romans drove the nails into his hands and thrust the spear into his side, it was because of us, God's own wayward Children that these indignities were permitted and in fact necessary that the debt due for our own selfishness could be paid and ourselves saved."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

How right you are, and how grateful I am for his precedent sacrifice.

TO HE HAS RISEN:

THANK YOU AND TO YOU AND YOUR FAMILY ALSO HAVE A WONDERFUL "RESURRECTION DAY"

As we take the time to give thanks and reflect on the awesome love of our Heavenly Father, I pray that we continually walk in humility, love for one another and may we always remember that we have the love of the Sovereign King and that will never change. May we take the time to bow down in spirit and in truth and ask for strength to forgive those who may offend, misuse or mock us knowing our Lord took all the burdens and wrath away from those who said; be merciful to me a sinner, please give me a new spirit for my soul and create in me a pure heart to do Your will. May we love the unloving and be bold witnesses in the name of Christ always remembering this is not our home, it's a stop before we reach the "Celestial City". May we continually pray without ceasing for those who don't know him and may we always serve as an example of His amazing grace. Each day serving Him with a spirit founded on the Rock with the passionate love and honor that only He deserves.

Isaiah 53:3-8
3He was (A)despised and forsaken of men, A man of sorrows and (B)acquainted with grief;And like one from whom men hide their face He was (C)despised, and we did not (D)esteem Him. 4Surely our [a]griefs He Himself (E)bore, And our sorrows He carried; Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,Smitten of (F)God, and afflicted. 5But He was [b]pierced through for (G)our transgressions, He was crushed for (H)our iniquities; The (I)chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by (J)His scourging we are healed. 6All of us like sheep have gone astray,Each of us has turned to his own way;But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him. 7He was oppressed and He was afflicted,Yet He did not (K)open His mouth;(L)Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,So He did not open His mouth. 8By oppression and judgment He was taken away;And as for His generation, who considered That He was cut off out of the land of the living(M)For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?

Romans 3:25
God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—

Spiritual Blessings in Christ
 3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he[c] predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace 8that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9And he[d] made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.

Romans 6-21

6For while we were still (L)helpless, (M)at the right time (N)Christ died for the ungodly. 7For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die.  8But God (O)demonstrates (P)His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, (Q)Christ died for us. 9Much more then, having now been justified (R)by His blood, we shall be saved (S)from the wrath of God through Him. 10For if while we were (T)enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved (U)by His life. 11(V)And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received (W)the reconciliation. 12Therefore, just as through (X)one man sin entered into the world, and (Y)death through sin, and (Z)so death spread to all men, because all sinned-- 13for until the Law sin was in the world, but (AA)sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned (AB)in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a [a](AC)type of Him who was to come. 15But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of (AD)the one (AE)the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by (AF)the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand (AG)the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. 17For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned (AH)through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will (AI)reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. 18So then as through (AJ)one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one (AK)act of righteousness there resulted (AL)justification of life to all men. 19For as through the one man's disobedience (AM)the many (AN)were made sinners, even so through (AO)the obedience of the One (AP)the many will be made righteous. 20(AQ)The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, (AR)grace abounded all the more,  21so that, as (AS)sin reigned in death, even so (AT)grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Angela :

"I also wish all my brothers and sisters in Christ a happy "Resurrection Day"".

Love,
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Same to you Angela,

your sister in Christ

Why is it that liberal and left wingers always believe it's about race. Everything is not about race. Sometimes it's about good and evil, truth and deceit. Does that make sense...Evidently not. Blind guides leading the blind...

So basically what you are telling me is that Crossan prefers a God for whom justice means nothing? And Keep in mind God's son is God for all intents and purposes.

Everything Jesus felt upon the Cross God felt quite literally as well they are after all one substance. What Crossan doesn't understand and you apparently as well has filled over the last 2000 years countless books almost any of which are better than Crossan's vain musings on things he doesn't even begin to understand

YaRight sez:

"Just about the only thing that would save his support with the whites is if the Pope himself backs him up."

This white guy supports Obama.

Let's face it, there are whites who will never vote for a black man. There are whites who might vote for a black man, but they are still looking for an excuse (any excuse) not to. There are whites who may vote for a black man, but they are waiting for a reason (ie: "their" reason) to vote for a black.

And there are those who look at the available candidates and feel Obama is far and away the best choice (those like this white guy).

The Pope?

In 12-step programs, they have a saying - "take what you like and leave the rest." Obviously, that is what Sen. Obama did. He found what he needed in the TUCC community and stayed. I looked up their website and read about them. they're doing good work for the community there in Chicago. Obama just left the anti-white speeches of his Pastor inside the Church, and didn't internalize them. He probably did what most of us do when we hear someone say something that we don't agree with - roll our eyes, grumble a bit, then let it pass.

Rev. Wright isn't a guru or cult leader. He's a preacher. He preaches. The person sitting in the pew can ignore him or pay attention to what he's saying. He's not some kind of weird svengali who is controlling Obama's every move. He's one of many advisors. Obama can choose to listen to his advice, or follow someone else's, or ignore everyone and follow what he thinks is right. I know that comes to a shock to people who are trained to believe and repeat everything that the person in the pulpit says to them. But, you have to remember that Obama came from a secular, agnostic background. He was taught early on to think for himself. Even though he became a Christian, he still continues to apply critical thinking. It would be a better world if everyone did that.

The problem is not race itself

The problem is not religion itself

The problem is not Black

The problem is not White
.
.
.
The problem is rhetoric that he, his wife and his unfortunate children have been exposed to.

He may have made a great speech.... Just the wrong one.

Just about the only thing that would save his support with the whites is if the Pope himself backs him up.

Jeff and GaryD,

You accuse Rev. Wright of racism, yet you fail to provide a single example to support your claim.

You say there is no truth to what the Rev. said, yet you fail to tell us what was false and why.

Garyd sez:

"The passage Mr. Mark is a warning to Christians that they won't ever be real popular with those who aren't Christians"

That's YOUR interpretation, which is no more or no less valid than anyone else's interpretation.

That's the beauty of the Bible - it can mean whatever one wants...which means it ultimately amounts to a zero-net-gain proposition.

And sorry, but I don't take Jesus' statement that Xians must "love" him MORE THAN THEY LOVE their own family members to be an example of Jesus engaging in a popularity contest. Your "interpretation" of the passage in question reduces Jesus' words to the level of a school yard taunt, or - at best - an ancient example of Tom Smothers' "mom liked you best" joke.

GaryD,

For added thought, here is what JD Crossan has to say about atonement theology: (from his book, "Who is Jesus" co-authored with Richard Watts)

"Moreover, an atonement theology that says God sacrifices his own son in place of humans who needed to be punished for their sins might make some Christians love Jesus, but it is an obscene picture of God. It is almost heavenly child abuse, and may infect our imagination at more earthly levels as well. I do not want to express my faith through a theology that pictures God demanding blood sacrifices in order to be reconciled to us."

"Traditionally, Christians have said, 'See how Christ's passion was foretold by the prophets." Actually, it was the other way around. The Hebrew prophets did not predict the events of Jesus' last week; rather, many of those Christian stories were created to fit the ancient prophecies in order to show that Jesus, despite his execution, was still and always held in the hands of God."

"In terms of divine consistency, I do not think that anyone, anywhere, at any time, including Jesus, brings dead people back to life."

I would hate to be held accountable for everything my pastor has said or will say. Super nice guy, but I consider him to be as dumb as a box of rocks and must live his life in a bubble. Have I tried to get him to expand his thinking? Of course I have. Why do I continue to go with my faith community - because that is where all my friends are in my community? I enjoy the company of my friends and get as much spiritually from my association with them as if we had a pastor that knew the time of day.

The speech was a failure, because it was filled with the same sort of hypocrisy toward racism and other bigotry that we have come to see as unacceptable when uttered by white people. What some posters in this forum call "hyperbole" and traditional black oratory expression, in referring to Rev. Wright's false statements and innuendo, is called racism when uttered by whites, and it universally deemed unacceptable in that context. The tradition of black oratory using hyperbole and eggageration does not excuse racism or anti-Jewish bigotry. So, if we believe in equality, then lets get over our hypocrisy and bias and apply the same ethical standards to all of our friends, clergy, and politicians when it comes to hate.

I don't count virulent racists as my friends or advisors, and certainly would not be married by such a person. Mr. Obama is demonstrating that he is as hypocritical when it comes to racism as so many other Americans. I'm not impressed.

The speech was a failure, because it was filled with the same sort of hypocrisy toward racism and other bigotry that we have come to see as unacceptable when uttered by white people. What some posters in this forum call "hyperbole" and traditional black oratory expression, in referring to Rev. Wright's false statements and innuendo, is called racism when uttered by whites, and it universally deemed unacceptable in that context. The tradition of black oratory using hyperbole and eggageration does not excuse racism or anti-Jewish bigotry. So, if we believe in equality, then lets get over our hypocrisy and bias and apply the same ethical standards to all of our friends, clergy, and politicians when it comes to hate.

I don't count virulent racists as my friends or advisors, and certainly would not be married by such a person. Mr. Obama is demonstrating that he is as hypocritical when it comes to racism as so many other Americans. I'm not impressed.

We Lutherans also celebrate Holy week John and Lent.
Though at least those of us who are Missouri synod tend to ignore Fat Tuesday. Though not the more somber Ash Wenesday. One thing we Christians should remember is that the Easter Season marks no only a day of Joy but of sorry for you see while some of the Jews (by no means all) cried crucify him and some of the Romans drove the nails into his hands and thrust the spear into his side, it was because of us, God's own wayward Children that these indignities were permitted and in fact necessary that the debt due for our own selfishness could be paid and ourselves saved.

Thanks to Priver for posting the whole speech of Barack Obama. I agree with all who said that the speech was powerful. There really is no other way to go forward than to embrace the contradictions, overcome the problems--really see them as they are. Perhaps the only thing Obama did not say is that blacks and whites--all immigrants--should interbreed as rapidly as possible so we do not get into the divisions we are in. I fully support intermarriage. Anyone with a basic sense of artistic instinct recognizes that. A nation should not have divisions--or rather only divisions which drive to greater syntheses. Empty divisions are a liability. Again, common sense.

I wish all here a blessed Ostara. Rejoice! Persephone has come, and the Lord and Lady walk through the fields and forests again. May all good seeds planted now bear beautiful fruit.

Blessed Be!

I also wish all my brothers and sisters in Christ a happy "Resurrection Day".

Love,

How many "Holy Week" more would you celebrate before you start reading your Bible? Centuries of "Holy Weeks" have gone and yet still ignorant of the Bible which is the Word of God.

Why not Holy Bible Week and start reading it even just for this week?

Catholicism is a false religion. Read the Bible coz it's there.

GaryD: thank you for the explanation of how family members and friends may not like who you are after your are born again. That's exactly what Jesus meant and of course, it's just dusty religion to those who don't have the Holy Spirit dwelling within...

Anonymous :
Soja John Thaikattil, Catholicism is a false religion. Start reading the bible and see for yourself.
~~~~~~~~~~~
March 20, 2008 4:29 AM
Soja John Thaikattil, Sydney, Australia :
"I wish all my Christian brothers and sisters in the United States and elsewhere in the world a Happy Easter"
~~~~~~~~~~~

Thank you, Happy Easter to you too and Anonymous.

Soja John Thaikattil, Catholicism is a false religion. Start reading the bible and see for yourself.

I wish all my Christian brothers and sisters in the United States and elsewhere in the world a Happy Easter!

As a Catholic, for me the Holy Week has already begun, so I wish all Catholics in the US and around the world a Happy Holy Week leading up to a wonderful Easter!

Jesus is risen and He is in our midst even as we celebrate His passion, death and Resurrection!

Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia

The interesting thing here is that Obama's speech seems to have changed no one's mind at all. Those who were sucking up the Pblum before continue to do so, while those who thought there wasn't much 'there' there and didn't much care for what little there was have only gotten more ammo to fire at him.

All this seems to have done is to reveal that there is far more of a political divide in this country than there is a racial divide.

Obama is not only a politician but a true christian .

Huckabee alone, of all of the Republican candidates was speaking up for the "little guy" - the ones that had been laid off, and were struggling. While I disagree with him on numerous issues, I have no doubt that he is a decent person. Unlike some people around here - Venom - he didn't judge people by the color of their skin or their immigration status. I don't think that he was Presidential material at this time. My Republican friends - and yes, I have some - felt that he was too far to the left on certain issues.

Perhaps Gov. Huckabee will go back to preaching? I think that he would do well with it. I just don't want him influencing government policy on a National level.

While the media and others are praising Obama for being "forthright, honest, talking truth to power, etc." I am reminded of Shakespeare's Othello where one of the characters states: "Take note, take note o'world; to be direct and honest is not wise"!!!

[Who wrote the Shakespeare plays is another subject; surely it wasn't the one generally given credit - which is more evidence to wonder what really is 'truth and facts'.]

The following is just the beginning:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72B3tUAqpo4

Obama lied and then did not have the honesty to deal with his lies in an honest and straight forward fashion. Instead he uses his intellect to bamboozle the guilt ridden white liberals to forget about his lies. The speech had nothing to do with the lies that Obama had been telling about Wright.

Say Hello to President McCain.

With a couple of exceptions -- hopefully the result of political necessity, and possibly ignorance -- Obama's Philadelphia address is the most lucid, accurate assessment/description of the state of "race" relations in America today I've heard from the lips of a public official in recent memory (if ever).

Frankly, I have no problem with Rev. Wright. Still, I understand Obama had to repudiate certain of the minister's comments. In his assessment of Wright, he expressed his disagreement with him on certain points -- and that's his prerogative/right. But in explaining Wright's comments, Obama ascribed them to Wright's shortcomings as a man and to "his generation" as though Wright's point of view is outdated, his judgment somehow clouded by bitterness. Frankly, that's a load of bull. And Black folks know it. At least, however, Obama was honest enough to state flat out that Wright's sentiments are fairly commonly held among Blacks in the U.S.

What Obama completely failed to mention, however, was all too obvious -- that Wright comes out of a very specific cultural tradition (which Obama may not quite get, given his ethnic background), which is out of the African-American Church and the African-American oral tradition, where hyperbole and various forms of verbal aggression/attack are part and parcel of everyday discourse and, certainly, of public speaking. Over-the-top characterizations and incendiary polemics are historical qualities of the African-American spoken word. It's a no-brainer. White America is, after all, very familiar with the hyperbolic bravado of rap (White kids buy more rap CDs than Black folks do) and the verbal aggression of ball-court trash talk, perhaps less so with woofin', signifying and the dozens. Still, hyperbole in African-American oral tradition is a phenomenon White America easily would have been able to recognize, if not relate to -- had Obama bothered to connect the dots for them.

The fact is, owing to deliberate obtuseness (racism) or just sheer ignorance/stupidity, White America still needs a lot of help when it comes to inter-ethnic understanding. And when it comes to African Americans especially, they're still on the short, yellow bus -- if you get my meaning. ;)

The other thing I had a problem with was his obligatory and blatant sucking up to the Zionist lobby/electorate. I cringed at the way he completely and utterly discounted the issue of the illegal settler colony of Israel as the primary grievance of the Islamic world against the U.S. (and the West, generally), ascribing anti-American Islamic animus merely to some sort of unreasoning "hatred." I can't believe Obama could possibly be so naive/ignorant! As calculated as it would have been, I have to hope his comments were out of perceived political necessity. It was the only gross miscalculation/real error I saw in his address. It deeply marred an otherwise excellent address. Certainly, the issue of Israel/Occupied Palestine warrants as nuanced and balanced an approach -- even in passing -- as the issue of "race." But we didn't get it yesterday. Muslim Americans and other anti-Zionistists (including anti-Zionist Jews) have to have been disappointed at his complete discounting of a very real and intractable problem, one that will not go away with such glib and dismissive rhetoric and pandering instead to the 'crazed, hate-filled militant Islamists' demagoguery that has been so much a part of this country's public discourse since 9-11. I know I was. I hope Obama's unfortunate remarks in this regard were simply currying favor -- and not indicative of the way he will conduct foreign policy once in office.

I noted that on MSNBC, Scarborough initially tried his usual conservative spin, citing only Obama's comments about Black grievances and completely ignoring the fact that he also addressed Whites' complaints. But Scarborough -- demagogue-with-an-agenda that he is) had to take a step back from that position once Brian Willliams allowed the brother from The Washington Post to set the record straight in that regard.

So, all in all, the address was very well done.

Now, let's see if the White electorate has the intelligence to receive and honestly process what Obama had to say.

Frankly, I'm not holding my breath.

With a couple of exceptions -- hopefully the result of political necessity, and possibly ignorance -- Obama's Philadelphia address is the most lucid, accurate assessment/description of the state of "race" relations in America today I've heard from the lips of a public official in recent memory (if ever).

Frankly, I have no problem with Rev. Wright. Still, I understand Obama had to repudiate certain of the minister's comments. In his assessment of Wright, he expressed his disagreement with him on certain points -- and that's his prerogative/right. But in explaining Wright's comments, Obama ascribed them to Wright's shortcomings as a man and to "his generation" as though Wright's point of view is outdated, his judgment somehow clouded by bitterness. Frankly, that's a load of bull. And Black folks know it. At least, however, Obama was honest enough to state flat out that Wright's sentiments are fairly commonly held among Blacks in the U.S.

What Obama completely failed to mention, however, was all too obvious -- that Wright comes out of a very specific cultural tradition (which Obama may not quite get, given his ethnic background), which is out of the African-American Church and the African-American oral tradition, where hyperbole and various forms of verbal aggression/attack are part and parcel of everyday discourse and, certainly, of public speaking. Over-the-top characterizations and incendiary polemics are historical qualities of the African-American spoken word. It's a no-brainer. White America is, after all, very familiar with the hyperbolic bravado of rap (White kids buy more rap CDs than Black folks do) and the verbal aggression of ball-court trash talk, perhaps less so with woofin', signifying and the dozens. Still, hyperbole in African-American oral tradition is a phenomenon White America easily would have been able to recognize, if not relate to -- had Obama bothered to connect the dots for them.

The fact is, owing to deliberate obtuseness (racism) or just sheer ignorance/stupidity, White America still needs a lot of help when it comes to inter-ethnic understanding. And when it comes to African Americans especially, they're still on the short, yellow bus -- if you get my meaning. ;)

The other thing I had a problem with was his obligatory and blatant sucking up to the Zionist lobby/electorate. I cringed at the way he completely and utterly discounted the issue of the illegal settler colony of Israel as the primary grievance of the Islamic world against the U.S. (and the West, generally), ascribing anti-American Islamic animus merely to some sort of unreasoning "hatred." I can't believe Obama could possibly be so naive/ignorant! As calculated as it would have been, I have to hope his comments were out of perceived political necessity. It was the only gross miscalculation/real error I saw in his address. It deeply marred an otherwise excellent address. Certainly, the issue of Israel/Occupied Palestine warrants as nuanced and balanced an approach -- even in passing -- as the issue of "race." But we didn't get it yesterday. Muslim Americans and other anti-Zionistists (including anti-Zionist Jews) have to have been disappointed at his complete discounting of a very real and intractable problem, one that will not go away with such glib and dismissive rhetoric and pandering instead to the 'crazed, hate-filled militant Islamists' demagoguery that has been so much a part of this country's public discourse since 9-11. I know I was. I hope Obama's unfortunate remarks in this regard were simply currying favor -- and not indicative of the way he will conduct foreign policy once in office.

I noted that on MSNBC, Scarborough initially tried his usual conservative spin, citing only Obama's comments about Black grievances and completely ignoring the fact that he also addressed Whites' complaints. But Scarborough -- demagogue-with-an-agenda that he is) had to take a step back from that position once Brian Willliams allowed the brother from The Washington Post to set the record straight in that regard.

So, all in all, the address was very well done.

Now, let's see if the White electorate has the intelligence to receive and honestly process what Obama had to say.

Frankly, I'm not holding my breath.

With a couple of exceptions -- hopefully the result of political necessity, and possibly ignorance -- Obama's Philadelphia address is the most lucid, accurate assessment/description of the state of "race" relations in America today I've heard from the lips of a public official in recent memory (if ever).

Frankly, I have no problem with Rev. Wright. Still, I understand Obama had to repudiate certain of the minister's comments. In his assessment of Wright, he expressed his disagreement with him on certain points -- and that's his prerogative/right. But in explaining Wright's comments, Obama ascribed them to Wright's shortcomings as a man and to "his generation" as though Wright's point of view is outdated, his judgment somehow clouded by bitterness. Frankly, that's a load of bull. And Black folks know it. At least, however, Obama was honest enough to state flat out that Wright's sentiments are fairly commonly held among Blacks in the U.S.

What Obama completely failed to mention, however, was all too obvious -- that Wright comes out of a very specific cultural tradition (which Obama may not quite get, given his ethnic background), which is out of the African-American Church and the African-American oral tradition, where hyperbole and various forms of verbal aggression/attack are part and parcel of everyday discourse and, certainly, of public speaking. Over-the-top characterizations and incendiary polemics are historical qualities of the African-American spoken word. It's a no-brainer. White America is, after all, very familiar with the hyperbolic bravado of rap (White kids buy more rap CDs than Black folks do) and the verbal aggression of ball-court trash talk, perhaps less so with woofin', signifying and the dozens. Still, hyperbole in African-American oral tradition is a phenomenon White America easily would have been able to recognize, if not relate to -- had Obama bothered to connect the dots for them.

The fact is, owing to deliberate obtuseness (racism) or just sheer ignorance/stupidity, White America still needs a lot of help when it comes to inter-ethnic understanding. And when it comes to African Americans especially, they're still on the short, yellow bus -- if you get my meaning. ;)

The other thing I had a problem with was his obligatory and blatant sucking up to the Zionist lobby/electorate. I cringed at the way he completely and utterly discounted the issue of the illegal settler colony of Israel as the primary grievance of the Islamic world against the U.S. (and the West, generally), ascribing anti-American Islamic animus merely to some sort of unreasoning "hatred." I can't believe Obama could possibly be so naive/ignorant! As calculated as it would have been, I have to hope his comments were out of perceived political necessity. It was the only gross miscalculation/real error I saw in his address. It deeply marred an otherwise excellent address. Certainly, the issue of Israel/Occupied Palestine warrants as nuanced and balanced an approach -- even in passing -- as the issue of "race." But we didn't get it yesterday. Muslim Americans and other anti-Zionistists (including anti-Zionist Jews) have to have been disappointed at his complete discounting of a very real and intractable problem, one that will not go away with such glib and dismissive rhetoric and pandering instead to the 'crazed, hate-filled militant Islamists' demagoguery that has been so much a part of this country's public discourse since 9-11. I know I was. I hope Obama's unfortunate remarks in this regard were simply currying favor -- and not indicative of the way he will conduct foreign policy once in office.

I noted that on MSNBC, Scarborough initially tried his usual conservative spin, citing only Obama's comments about Black grievances and completely ignoring the fact that he also addressed Whites' complaints. But Scarborough -- demagogue-with-an-agenda that he is) had to take a step back from that position once Brian Willliams allowed the brother from The Washington Post to set the record straight in that regard.

So, all in all, the address was very well done.

Now, let's see if the White electorate has the intelligence to receive and honestly process what Obama had to say.

Frankly, I'm not holding my breath.

The passage Mr. Mark is a warning to Christians that they won't ever be real popular with those who aren't Christians as many posts here actively and occasionally viciously attest.

Congrats Athena, at last we can agree on something. Keep on posting Huckabee's words coz they are like music to my ears. It would be great if you immerse yourself more in his environment like going to the same church he goes. You might end up much better than other "believers" who treat blacks unfairly as he said.

I recently re-read Isaac Asimov's novel, written back in the 50's, "Pebble in the Sky", it's about a human suddenly transported FORWARD in TIME, to the far future, when Earth's HUMAN Race has expanded outward & expanded to become a GALACTIC EMPIRE. The man is a simple retired Tailor, & is amazed to find that EARTH is considered a backward primitive Planet, which is mostly covered with highly RADIOACTIVE contaminated Zones, where NO LIFE, of any kind, can grow or thrive, human, animal, plant, microbial, zip, nada.

The Galactic Empire doesn't realize that Planet Earth is the "Cradle of Civilization", that Earth is the Original Planet where Humankind first evolved. The HOME PLANET.

Now, as Americans & "Earthlings" we can continue to look DOWNWARD only, at our FEET, & we will continue to stumble over them, falling flat on our mental faces over our primitive superstitions, prejudices, religious beliefs, over silly IDIOTIC things like, what particular HUE of SKIN COLOR one has; what TRIBE one "belongs" to; OR, we can LOOK UP...

LOOK UP, to the STARS, to the Infinite & truly AWESOME UNIVERSE, the "HEAVENS", which our Tiny, Fragile "PEBBLE in the SKY" is traveling through, while circling around one Sun of one Planetary System, in one Galaxy of "GOD"'s Creation. MY mind cannot imagine any "CREATOR" of such wonders, as so puny & pinched & limited as the Right-Wing Fundamentalists in our Country, especially, as well as the Fundamentalists in Muslim countries, or Jewish, or Hindu or whatever "ISM" you insist on. They all seem to share one trait: a suspiciously ANTHROPOMORPHIC HUMAN face.

In other words, my fervent, feverish & hate filled fellow Americans, you have created a "GOD", a false Idol to worship, in your OWN IMAGE, & call it "GOD".

That way lies Madness for the Human Race, continued madness of Tribal divisions which are archaic relics we must give up at "Childhood's End", (an Arthur C. Clarke Sci Fi novel's title), or we will end up DESTROYING the entire Human Race, along with ALL Sentient Species which we share this small Planet Earth with.

This fragile "Mother Earth". This "Pebble in the Sky". This BEAUTIFUL, amazing, & awesome CREATION. Our silly petty hatreds are INSANE, truly. Just take the time, just ONE DAY, to go on the NASA TV Channel, or if you don't get it, the NASA Internet Website, & LOOK AT OUR PLANET as our Astronauts on the International SPACE STATION are seeing it.

Then, try to REMEMBER, if you are old enough, like me, that ONE MAGICAL MOMENT when the entire WORLD was united in AWE, as we witnessed the FIRST HUMAN to WALK ON THE MOON!

What happened to THAT America? That spirit? How have we "DE-VOLVED" back into a pseudo-weird second DARK AGES, this time with a NEWS MEDIA & LEADERS, both POLITICAL & RELIGIOUS, who urge us to back ourselves, looking down at our big, clumsy FEET, into the Dark Caves of Ancient Fears, Ancient Hatreds, Ancient Ignorance & Blind Superstitions?

What has happened to my America? Because I don't recognize her anymore, & she is damn scary!

United States have been manipulated into imagining they are a people under siege whose sole refuge and protector is their government.If it isn't communists,it's Al-Qaeda.If it isn't Cuba it is Nicaragua.As a result,this,the most powerful nation in the world-with its unmachable arsenal of weapons,its history of having waged and sponsored endless wars,and the only nation in history to have actually used nuclear bombs-is peopled by a terrified citizenry,jumping at shadows.A people bonded to the state not by social services,or puplic health care,or employment guarentees,but by fear.
This synthetically manufactured fear is used to gain public sanction for further acts of aggression

Mr. Mark,

Matthew 10: 34-39 has been reviewed by the likes of Crossan and found to be properly attested to but was Jesus off in some wine stupor/trance after all he did supposedly talk to a demon of the demented, walked through walls and was good with food replicators plus has a very, very embellished biography. And as you alluded to,

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He that loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."

does not fit with Christian pronouncements like The Beatitudes and the Ten Commandments.

Bottom line: Matthew 10: 34-39 does not fit the character and one wonders about the entire passage with respect to Jesus' mental state at the time.

And that Mr. Mark is the problem we get when atheist and others read the Bible without benefit of the Holy Spirit. They just don't get it.

The scripture you cite merely explains that If you become a Christian your family may well turn on you.
The truth will set you free but it will annoy the living crap out of people unwilling to accept it.

Jesus said:

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He that loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."

...so it's a bit strange to read Xians on this blog calling Rev Wright's comments "un-Christian."

My problem with Obama isn't his pastor its his fascination with government as an answer to all our questions. A solution by the way which is a demonstrable failure.

Obama truly represents a new type of politics.

Compare his speech yesterday to the speech Colin Powell gave at the UN, THE speech that assured the country that war with Iraq was necessary and inevitable. Powell's speech was a pack of lies, lies that he himself was well aware of as he spewed forth his bush-approved mendacities to a waiting and trusting world. Prior to Obama's speech yesterday, it stood as THE boilerplate speech on what it took for a black man to be regarded as "acceptable" to the whites in power, ie: just another politician who would sell his soul for a seat at the table.

There in a nutshell is the politics-of-the-past from which Obama is trying so desperately to distance himself. He succeeded brilliantly yesterday. Indeed, the Colin Powells of the world must be realizing that they are yesterday's corn flakes. They best get used to life in Obama's shadow.

There's a new day in America. Time to embrace the future.

I heard many similar sermons from white preachers in North Carolina during the early 1960's railing against the government and changes in society. The preachers quoted the Bible on politics, segregation and interpreted what God wanted us to do about all these changes taking place.

They led their congregations away from the Holy Scriptures by bending the Bible to meet their particular meaning. They sowed dissention and hatred among the races and toward their political enemies.

They sounded just like the Rev. Wright, except we used to call these white preachers "racist."

In reality, ministers and preachers should preach the Gospel from the pulpit, and leave the politics off church property. When they speak about God, their are preachers. When they speak about what God wants people to do or to think in politics, the preachers lead their congregations astray from the love of God, using their authority as God's messenger to corrupt God's word for political purposes. They should be ashamed.

I have never had a problem leaving a church if I disagreed with a Pastor's point of view. Why would you sit there every Sunday for 20 years and listen to Sermons which contain a viewpoint you do not believe? An intelligent person wouldn't -- they would leave. If you don't leave then you obviously support those views -- esp. if you have the Pastor marry you, baptize your children, be a prominent supporter if you run for political office.

Obama is a snake-oil salesman, and too many being are being suckered in by the scam artist. He is nothing but a political con-man selling the voters the Brooklyn Bridge.

Barack Obama, the erstwhile candidate who transcended race, was forced to give a speech he did not want to give, because he did not directly confront his problematic relationship with Rev. Jeremiah Wright.

Obama's Johnny-come-lately speech ended up being a red herring that couched his dilemma with Wright inside a broader, stump-style speech about race. Unlike last Friday, Obama acknowledged in his speech that he heard Wright's vitriol from the pews, yet he could not repudiate his former long-time pastor.

In short, Obama turned a page for change we could believe in and found out that the text already had been written as politics as usual. The rest of Obama's campaign will be little more than an exercise in political intrigue after which the Democrats will realize that he cannot win the general election. The super delegates will step in to ensure that Hillary Clinton becomes the Democratic nominee.

Maybe we should start a Department of Christianity, with a Secretary of Christianity. And one of the goals of this Department could be to check up on each and every American, to keep track of their church attendance, and write reports on people about stuff like this. Yeah, that sounds like a good idea.

Then when people are seeking to run for President, we could get all this information ahead of time, and save us this mess.

You are excusing Obama's answer as correct by wording your question as whether we are "responsible" for what our clergy/religious leaders say. The question brought up by those critical of Mr. Obama's response was a different one: is a double standard being applied to different candidates or different persons and their reactions to their advisors/friends' racist remarks merely because of their race?

We cannot and should not be held responsible for something someone else says with no urging or suggestion from us. However, when white racists or anti-Jewish bigots are close to a candidate (or a candidate themselves), we respond by expecting all supposedly "decent" people, including the candidate, to reject that bigoted person and what they said. That certainly would preclude having the racist as one of our close friends, close advisors, or clergy.

In Mr. Obama's case, he first claimed he had never heard Rev. Wright say anything like he was quoted recently as saying in the media. Then, he remembered that he had heard "angry" comments from the Reverend, but that he rejected merely the words, not the man. Can you imagine the reaction of black America, and others, to a similar comment by a white candidate in a similar situation? Say, if they had been friends with David Duke and Duke's views on black people suddenly came out in the public? That's not much different than this case, as Duke used to say he did not dislike black people and did not wish to stereotype them.

The fact is that Rev. Wright promoted blatant, racist stereotypes of white people and Jews, and he did so often enough that it is impossible to imagine that the Obama family never heard such views in their 20-year close personal friendship with Rev. Wright. Obama's speach yesterday equivocated and excused the inexcusable -- I do not want a man who is friends with racists being my president. Nobody should. And, yes, I have spoken up many times when white people that I knew said racist things. If I can cut off those friendships or associations, so can Barack Obama.

Thanks - here's the rest of the second paragraph. it got cut off.

"We've gotta cut some slack to people who grew up being called names; being told you have to sit in the balcony when you go to the movie; you have to go to the back door to go into the restaurant; you can't sit out there with everyone else, there's a separate waiting room in the doctor's office; here's where you sit on the bus .. . And you know what? Sometimes people do have a chip on their shoulder, and resentment, and you have to just say, "I probably would, too. I probably would, too. And in fact, I may have had more of a chip on my shoulder had it been me."

Daniel in the Lions Den:

Maybe I misinterpreted what you meant. I do, however, disagree when you consider fundamentalists a cult like momonism--that's pretty much something that people who want to make a God to suit themselves and yes, I believe the bible is the word of God (not some of it; all of it). The New Birth is fundamental to salvation/spending eternity with God. Also, God converts the soul but I believe there are alot of folks sitting in pews under false doctrine and emotionalism which is sin and carnality. Again, I don't want to go in church and hear the rantings of hateful rhetoric. If Pastor Wright wasn't a pastor leading the flock, I would care less but again, I could and would never sit in the pews of any pastor/preacher/minister who preached hate when again, Jesus, preached love, forgiveness, reconciliation for all people and he did however, speak rather harshly to those who were hypocrites and leading people astray with false doctrine and religiosity. Remember w/out holiness, no man shall see the Lord.

There is many a Roman Catholic who does not follow the rhythm method of birth control. There is many a Morman who enjoys a good cup of coffee. There is many a Rasta who may not take a smoke. There are things about each religious faction that one does not agree with.

It is not surprising that Rev. Wright said something that everyone does not agree with. With a congregation that large, there is no way that everyone agrees with everything he said. Rev. Wright is human, with all that entails. Those who truly follow a risen Saviour follow Him and not man. It is not man who will get you into heaven, and looking to man to save us from our ills will leave us disapointed and disenchanted.

A dialogue has been opened and we should step through it. South African needed to face it's dark past, America needs to as well. Unless and until we do, we will be doomed to live in the shadow of slavery and all that it entails.

Dear Angerla:

You asked me:

"You mean to tell me that doctrine isn't important. Interpreting scripture and doctrine to suit self. I guess in your opinion, unity is more important than doctrine which produces false, carnal conversions (unsaved churchgoers)."

No, I did not say any of those things. This is what I said:

"...the foundation of belief is that belief itself is something that works itself from an individual's inner will and cannot be forced. Such churches recognize freedom of speech and freedom of belief, even in church doctrine."

When I say that belief cannot be forced, I do not mean that it "should" not be forced, and I do not mean that it would be "impolite" to try and force belief; I mean exactly what I said, that belief cannot be forced, but can only be worked through by an individucal's own inner will.

Do you believe something different? Do you believe that you have the ability and the power to enforce belief upon another, against his or her will? If you have that power, then I imagine that you would be the first person in history to have that power.

So, what is it that you're saying? That belief should be forced on others who may not belief? How does this mechanism of enforced belief work? And how, after you have worked your coersion, do you really know for sure if you have truely forced another person to believe as you do, or if that person is just pretending to belief as you insist, while inwardly believing something else?

I was just pointing out that different churches have totally and completely different concepts regarding the nature of belief. Your inability to comprehend my point just proves my point.

Dear Angerla:

You asked me:

"You mean to tell me that doctrine isn't important. Interpreting scripture and doctrine to suit self. I guess in your opinion, unity is more important than doctrine which produces false, carnal conversions (unsaved churchgoers)."

No, I did not say any of those things. This is what I said:

"...the foundation of belief is that belief itself is something that works itself from an individual's inner will and cannot be forced. Such churches recognize freedom of speech and freedom of belief, even in church doctrine."

When I say that belief cannot be forced, I do not mean that it "should" not be forced, and I do not mean that it would be "impolite" to try and force belief; I mean exactly what I said, that belief cannot be forced, but can only be worked through by an individucal's own inner will.

Do you believe something different? Do you believe that you have the ability and the power to enforce belief upon another, against his or her will? If you have that power, then I imagine that you would be the first person in history to have that power.

So, what is it that you're saying? That belief should be forced on others who may not belief? How does this mechanism of enforced belief work? And how, after you have worked your coersion, do you really know for sure if you have truely forced another person to believe as you do, or if that person is just pretending to belief as you insist, while inwardly believing something else?

I was just pointing out that different churches have totally and completely different concepts regarding the nature of belief. Your inability to comprehend my point just proves my point.

JOANNE:

You're missing the point: McCain didn't spend 20 years in the pews of Rod Parsley nor John Hagge. Big difference. If you find something offensive, would you just continue to tithe and allow your young children to hear it. Who's kidding who here. Nor did McCain state that Rod Parsley and John Hagee were his spiritual leaders or write a book quoting such heresy. Get real...

Daniel in the Lion's Den:

Once you catch on it is all crystal clear.

But you have to recognize that people don't want to know the 'truth'; they had rather 'believe'.

But George Bush has made traditional 'believing' and knowing truth and facts into a total farce.

Athena, Thanks for posting Huckabee's statement on Wright.

I am actually a little stunned right now. I've never seen that much grace in all of politics, especially from a guy like Huckabee who was smeared like a fool for his beliefs.

Just when you think you've seen it all...

regards

Can't America ever be brave enough to elect someone who doesn't discuss his/her own religious beliefs? Wouldn't that alleviate all of this nonsense? All of the candidates have rather bizarre (supposed) men of god in their camps.

The fact that good old Mr. Straight Talk has aligned with some serious fanatics. Here's what McCain's spiritual leaders say:

Parsley, who refers to himself as a "Christocrat," is no stranger to controversy. In 2007, the grassroots organization he founded, the Center for Moral Clarity, called for prosecuting people who commit adultery. In January, he compared Planned Parenthood to Nazis. In the past Parsley's church has been accused of engaging in pro-Republican partisan activities in violation of its tax-exempt status.

And Hagee is even more insane and mysogynistic: Do you know the difference between a woman with PMS and a snarling Doberman pinscher? The answer is lipstick. (THIS IS AN ACTUAL HAGEE QUOTE!)
Do you know the difference between a terrorist and a woman with PMS? You can negotiate with a terrorist. (AGAIN, ANOTHR HAGEE QUOTE)
"As a nation, America is under the curse of God."
(sounds like god damn America to me)

Hagee: "All hurricanes are acts of God, because God controls the heavens. I believe that New Orleans had a level of sin that was offensive to God, and they are -- were recipients of the judgment of God for that. The newspaper carried the story in our local area that was not carried nationally that there was to be a homosexual parade there on the Monday that the Katrina came. And the promise of that parade was that it was going to reach a level of sexuality never demonstrated before in any of the other Gay Pride parades. So I believe that the judgment of God is a very real thing."

In a word, YES.

When a pastor speaks he must be well beyond reproach in words and in personal actions. Otherwise he has no authority.

When a preacher goes from behind the podium, to up onto the podium, it is a pedestal that has no place in the church. He needs to be called on it - or what ever he says becomes a cult of personality. Are we talking about god or are we talking about "Rev. so-and-so"? The latter has no place in church.

A wealthy family man land developer who goes to church as sexually moral and upstanding - but then on monday plows under virgin wilderness for condos is a SINNER. Period. But the church doesn't say anything about it because he is in church as sexually moral. This is totally wrong. He should be called on his faux transactional morality by the church.

The mortgage broker family man who drives an Escalade and has a house on the golf course who attends church on sunday is sexually moral. But, while technically "legal", he swindles borrowers with userous rates, and pre-payment penalties and thus is a SINNER. He should be called on his transactional immorality by the church membership.

Those who commit sins of the flesh are cast out - unless they are Ted Haggard. Then they are embraced and forgiven, declared "no longer homosexual" and they go back to asking congregants for money. In Haggard's case, the multimillionaire was asking people to pay for a college education.

Disgustingly transactionally immoral. The actions of all the preachers who gave him cover should be called for what they are HYPOCRISY". It would be different if they had just said "ok he's gay now, and his admission is honorable as we forgive him for being human and fallable." But they didn't - they LIED from the pulpit in a hoodwink effort.

A preacher who spews hate - regardless of his or her color - is a SINNER. Period. These people need to be called on their statements from the pulpit just like the church needs to call out the transactionally immoral. Just like the church DOES call out and attack those who they feel are sexually immoral.

The cult of personality in a business suit needs to end. I don't care what your color is, what your zip code is, or how popular you are.

If you're a hypocrite - you're a SINNER. And the church isn't throwing these people out - instead they embrace them and then cast stones at others outside of their cult of personality.

When church going A,erica ditches the hypocrisy a lot more people will join them in church.

Mark writes:

"Why should Obama respond at all? No one is questioning McCain and his spiritual leaders like Robertson or Falwell who blamed 9/11 on lesbians and gays. Double standard here?"

Of course there's a double standard. Are you surprised? We've been living with this double standard at least since the Reagan Years. Democrats are skewered for every indiscretion while Republicans get a free pass for the same sins.

Yes, let's talk about Rev John Hagee's endorsement of John McCain and McCain's enthusiastic embrace of the same. Let's look up a few of Hagee's sayings, shall we? Where's the media's questioning of McCain on Hagee's bizarre end-times theology and his open hatred of Catholics?

Now, THAT'S a discussion our country should be having in this election cycle!

Can't America ever be brave enough to elect someone who doesn't discuss his/her own religious beliefs? Wouldn't that alleviate all of this nonsense? All of the candidates have rather bizarre (supposed) men of god in their camps.

Here's what McCain's spiritual leaders say:

Parsley, who refers to himself as a "Christocrat," is no stranger to controversy. In 2007, the grassroots organization he founded, the Center for Moral Clarity, called for prosecuting people who commit adultery. In January, he compared Planned Parenthood to Nazis. In the past Parsley's church has been accused of engaging in pro-Republican partisan activities in violation of its tax-exempt status.

Hagee: "All hurricanes are acts of God, because God controls the heavens. I believe that New Orleans had a level of sin that was offensive to God, and they are -- were recipients of the judgment of God for that. The newspaper carried the story in our local area that was not carried nationally that there was to be a homosexual parade there on the Monday that the Katrina came. And the promise of that parade was that it was going to reach a level of sexuality never demonstrated before in any of the other Gay Pride parades. So I believe that the judgment of God is a very real thing."

There is much about the speech that I like. But, my concern is it seems to be given only for political gain.

If Barack was for unity I'd expect him to correct (speak against)the language of his pastor/cong. long before is became politically expedient. [Not that political expediency is bad but the politically expedient rhetoric needs to be coupled with politically expedient action].
We cannot nor should we disown our family and friends. I may not 'speak up' when a family member says something that is today not quite p.c. BUT if they speak with hatred based on prejudice I will. This type of hate speech is not acceptable whether it be at the coffee table or from the pulpit -- both are insidious and dangerous for unity's sake.

If at my church even ONCE a pastor spoke with this type of hate directed toward white/black, male/female, straight/gay, etc. I would immediately challenge them and/or speak to the Church Council. If it wasn't addressed I would leave.

My problem in this situation is it shows a lack of conviction in his goal toward unity. COMMUNI-CATING is important but so is COMMUNI-ACTING. [In some ways that is what Liberation Theology is all about.] Obama is great on the communication but falls flat for me on the communi-ACTION.

Barack did not do this ACTION (taking a stand against hate speech)... until it was politically necessary. That is not a leader to me. A leader is one who works for ALL people: registering voters and speaking about the issues of those whose color/culture is not their own; seeking healthcare and legal services for children and families, etc. Hillary has been DOING this for years and years.

I found it interesting that Obama in his speech delcares the nations 'original sin' to be slavery. Why not it's unfair treatment of Native Americans? why not its attitude toward women? [remember "all men are created equal" back then meant all MEN]. Our nations 'original sin' is larger than slavery and that he limits its scope to a black concern is telling for me. It might be a political advantage to see 'original sin' as slavery but it is much more and by claiming it AS more we unite not divide.

I don't resent that black people are mad, nor that white people are mad, nor women, nor gays.... so long at their anger moves in positive, unifying channels. I applaud Obama that, in his speech, he seeks to rhetorically move in that direction (I often say right rhetoric is the first step in right action) but he was silent toward this hate speech for a loooong time.

I can't judge whether a candidate’s words or actions are heartfelt but I can vote whether or not they say and do the right thing at the time they should be doing them. Obama's words are right words at the right time but not his actions-- he's many years late. Clinton has worked for Blacks and Hispanics and children and women for a loooong time. She'll get my vote.

As time and action occur I hope Obama will get my vote later.I AM IN LOVE WITH THE IDEA OF A BLACK PRESIDENT but not one that is inexperienced and not ready (we've had that scenario and it hasn't worked well).

Daniel in the Lion's Den:

You mean to tell me that doctrine isn't important. Interpreting scripture and doctrine to suit self. I guess in your opinion, unity is more important than doctrine which produces false, carnal conversions (unsaved churchgoers).

1 Timothy 4-16 - Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.

I don't go to Catholic masses anymore because they discriminate against women in every sense of the word. If I were running for office, and attending Catholic masses, I wouldn't expect to have much backing from women. Our array of churches is like the cereal aisle in the grocery store. Pick and choose, but if you eat Count Chocula, I won't vote for you. Just kidding.

I think that this whole affair makes organized religion look worse and worse, and its apologists look sillier and sillier. I am sad to say this, but what other conclusion is there?

The more I think of it, the more absurd it is. We do not even really know how many Sundays out of the past 20 years Barak Obama even attended the church in question. We might assume that he has not been attending since he has been living in Washington, couldn't we? Perhaps President Bush and Vice President Cheney could have the FBI write a report on this. Yes, that would be a good use of rescources. This is, after all, really, really important.

And then, if he is found to have been a faithful church-goer at the church in question, we can continue his crucifiction on grounds that he went to a bad church with a bad pastor. And if it turns out that he did not go very often, then we can start a whole new campaingn against him, that he is a shady and suspicious character because his church attnedance was low. And if this doesn't work, we can always refer, sneakily, to his middle name...

And in the meantime, this is the fifth anniversary of the Iraq War, but who cares, when we have really, really important stuff like this to debate?

(Jesus would be proud).

Priver: I appreciate you asking me to provide a few sources. It has been a while since that story broke but I found a couple for you.

In response to the JF and PR 911 comments...

"Suggestions of this kind are one of the reasons why all conservatives get tarred and feathered with this extremist, bigoted, racist, sexist, homophobic label or image that isn't true. The words of Robertson and Falwell are not the words of all conservatives - they are the words of Robertson and Falwell."

-Limbaugh

http://www.nationalreview.com/september11/sept11-buckley.asp

- article by Buckley

This is from former Presidential candidate and Baptist preacher Mike Huckabee:

"[Y]ou can't hold the candidate responsible for everything that people around him may say or do," Huckabee says. "It's interesting to me that there are some people on the left who are having to be very uncomfortable with what ... Wright said, when they all were all over a Jerry Falwell, or anyone on the right who said things that they found very awkward and uncomfortable, years ago. Many times those were statements lifted out of the context of a larger sermon. Sermons, after all, are rarely written word for word by pastors like Rev. Wright, who are delivering them extemporaneously, and caught up in the emotion of the moment. There are things that sometimes get said, that if you put them on paper and looked at them in print, you'd say 'Well, I didn't mean to say it quite like that.'"

Later, he defended Wright's anger, too:

"As easy as it is for those of us who are white to look back and say 'That's a terrible statement!' ... I grew up in a very segregated South. And I think that you have to cut some slack -- and I'm gonna be probably the only conservative in America who's gonna say something like this, but I'm just tellin' you -- we've gotta cut some slack to people who grew up being called names..."

Ooops,

Make that:

Daniel in the Lion's Den,

I agree with you somewhat but all Christian churches "top down" or liberal suffer from the same basic flaws and errors.

e.g.

Luther, Calvin, Joe Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty/ugly wingy talking flying fictional thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

Daniel in the Lions Den,

I agree with somewhat but all Christian churches "top down" or liberal suffer from the same basic flaws and errors.

e.g.

Luther, Calvin, Joe Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty/ugly wingy talking flying fictional thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

It was an important address. BUT...

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/GOP_ad_makers_salivate_at_potential_0319.html

GOP ad makers salivate at potential in Wright comments

Have Republicans found their golden ticket to the White House this year?

The same GOP ad-men who turned John Kerry's Vietnam service into a political liability and tied decorated veteran Max Cleland (who lost three limbs fighting the Viet Cong) to terror leader Osama bin Laden believe the Rev. Jerimiah Wright has made their jobs much, much easier this year.

Some are even starting to believe that Barack Obama, who attended Wright's church for two decades, would be an easier Democrat to beat than Hillary Clinton, who's been a catalyst for right-wing vitriol going on two decades now.

Nonsense Patrick. It is they who feed the anger. They that stoke it's fires with words like coal. They that bring it to a fever pitch.

In America, there are varying traditions of Christianity and I think it is sometimes hard for people from the various tradtiions to understand each other.

In "top-down" churches that hold to such concepts as apostoasy and heresy, and engage in such antiquated practices as "excommunication," people think that whatever the priest or pastor says is what everyone should and must believe and subscribe to. I would put the Catholic Church, the Mormon Church, and most Fundamentalist Churches in this category.

But, then there are more liberal churches in which the foundation of belief is that belief itself is something that works itself from an individual's inner will and cannot be forced. Such churches recognize freedom of speech and freedom belief, even in chuch doctrine. Such churches have cast off the antiquated notions of apostasy and heresy and do not practice excommunication. Some examples of this kind of church would the Methodist Church and the Episcopal Church.

Perhaps Obama belongs to one of these churches which recognizes freedom of speech and belief and does not seek to correct "wrong" thinking in others. Perhaps this is how a Christain can maintain ties in a church and with a pastor whose political views one may not completely agree with.

One impression from the speech would be that someone (maybe a pastor) exhorted Obama to make a confession and "tell it all, brother, tell it all"!

I wonder if the part about his grandmother should have been left out.

This is off the subject a little except for comments but 'conservatives' think that they alone are astute'; but they have offered up McCain as their "brightest and best" of the stars ....! Based on yesterday's performance by McCain, they should humbly ask The Almighty, and others, for forgiveness!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We as a nation are very, very fortunate to have Judeo-Christianity as our principle religion along with freedom of speech.

The "Reverend Wrights" of this country have confined themselves only to invectives on Sunday giving ventilation to their parishoners anger rather than cajoling them towards violence.

Don't shut their voices of anger.....it may come out in some other way!

Hi Factual,

on this: "You are kidding, right? Everyone ripped those 911 comments including other conservatives. Those two clowns even came back and "apologized"."

Could you point to some specific examples of these 'apologies' you speak of? If any exist, I haven't seen them. Any information I have on this has only been attempts to justify why they said what they said, not actually admitting that it is not productive to do so and hurts people who have nothing to do with anything in the process. If there is something additional out there somewhere, I will stand corrected.

Thanks.

I'm a african-american Christian (not someone who just attends church) and I attend a predominately black church and again, I would leave a church who has a pastor who preached like Pastor Jeremiah Wright. We are not black, red, white, yellow Christians: we are God's children who are called to follow Christ and the comments I heard are horrific. Jesus' message was: love, forgiveness, reconciliation not separatism. I would hope Obama's children were in Sunday school during those messages.

Lastly, I believe most true believers would find those comments unbiblical and filled with hate; Stop rationalizing hate and evil...

Jay,

You said: "The GOP has used the "race" issue in the South for many years now clothed in words like "Liberal."

How ironic! Your statement reflects the strategy employed by Democrats (liberals if you prefer), which is to portray the GOP as racist. It is the Democrats who have played the race card - again and again - always attempting to sway minorities into believing that Democrats are the only party that will represent their interest. The shame of using race for political gain belongs to Democrats more so than Republicans.

This is really nothing more than a transparent attack on Christianity and the chruch. We all have friends wgo we love, who say things that we do not agree with, sometimes thibgs that we revile. Do we call them on it? Maybe, sometimes, but we usually just clam up and ignore it. Same with our boss at work, same with the pastor at the chruch we attend. I have, and have been a regular chruch attender for more than 20 years. The pqastors at my churchs are almost always "creationists", which I think is just plain silly. Do I call them out for their unscientific stance? Nope! Likewise, a very good friend, a pastor at a Methodist chruch, the woman who led me to Christ back in 1985, supports "choice", which I think is pretty close to murder. Do we talk about it? Not any more. Our friendship is too important. The same holds true with several dear Gay and Lesbian friends, with an ultra-conservative former Marine Corp Captain (my *best friend*, by the way), and so on. People criticising Mr. Obama's freindship with his pastor are merelt trying to score points and demonstrating that they are hypocrits or narrow minded bigots and something less than human.

I am a member of another mainline congregation in the South. The senior pastor is a very good friend of mine, but I disagree with him on theology, politics, and other issues. I would not reject him. He's my friend. I'd rather stay in the congregation and make my voice heard. I've heard white preachers say things a lot worse than the views expressed by Sen. Obama's pastor. The GOP has used the "race" issue in the South for many years now clothed in words like "Liberal."

I'm ready to face this demon of race. Now is the time.

TJ sin is but selfishness. We drop out of the shoot selfish and therefore not innocent.

The Book of Life detailing all those who will in the fullness of time will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven was written before God ever said "Let there be light." This means that your actions have nothing to do with salvation for as God says in Romans "I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy". And as it further states in Romans There is no one who seeks after God ...All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. And as David remarks in his prayer for Israel "All men sin".

We human beings are at no point in our lives innocent but God may choose to save us at any point in our lives including while we still yet reside in the womb. Who is saved and who is not? This I cannot say for I don't have a copy of the Book of Life nor frankly would I want one.

Question: Are you responsible for what your spiritual leader says from the pulpit?

To some degree - YES. That is, as a long time member of a church, you should be well aware of your pastor's views. If those views are contradictory to your beliefs, then it begs a couple of questions - Why are you attending that church? Why would you allow yourself to be associated with that pastor? As Christians, we are called to guard our doctrine closely. If we support a church that explicitly (or implicitly) contradicts our core beliefs, then we need to challenge the source and reconcile those differences, or leave that body.

A reasonable person has to conclude, despite Obama’s recent assertions – his long time attendance and good standing with his church and pastor is evidence that he agrees with their teachings. Guilt by association? YES – but it is what one should expect and assume when one actively and deliberately participates in an organization with a charter of promoting social, spiritual, or political views. It was his choice to stay in that congregation and be married by this pastor, and to have children baptized by him. Obama embraced that association.

In the end, his speech is rhetoric. It matters not how well it was composed or delivered, it was a means to disassociate himself politically from a man that had willing embraced spiritually for a great number of years.

Question: Are you responsible for what your spiritual leader says from the pulpit?

To some degree - YES. That is, as a long time member of a church, you should be well aware of your pastor's views. If those views are contradictory to your beliefs, then it begs a couple of questions - Why are you attending that church? Why would you allow yourself to be associated with that pastor? As Christians, we are called to guard our doctrine closely. If we support a church that explicitly (or implicitly) contradicts our core beliefs, then we need to challenge the source and reconcile those differences, or leave that body.

A reasonable person has to conclude, despite Obama’s recent assertions – his long time attendance and good standing with his church and pastor is evidence that he agrees with their teachings. Guilt by association? YES – but it is what one should expect and assume when one actively and deliberately participates in an organization with a charter of promoting social, spiritual, or political views. It was his choice to stay in that congregation and be married by this pastor, and to have children baptized by him. Obama embraced that association.

In the end, his speech is rhetoric. It matters not how well it was composed or delivered, it was a means to disassociate himself politically from a man that had willing embraced spiritually for a great number of years.

Question: Are you responsible for what your spiritual leader says from the pulpit?

To some degree - YES. That is, as a long time member of a church, you should be well aware of your pastor's views. If those views are contradictory to your beliefs, then it begs a couple of questions - Why are you attending that church? Why would you allow yourself to be associated with that pastor? As Christians, we are called to guard our doctrine closely. If we support a church that explicitly (or implicitly) contradicts our core beliefs, then we need to challenge the source and reconcile those differences, or leave that body.

A reasonable person has to conclude, despite Obama’s recent assertions – his long time attendance and good standing with his church and pastor is evidence that he agrees with their teachings. Guilt by association? YES – but it is what one should expect and assume when one actively and deliberately participates in an organization with a charter of promoting social, spiritual, or political views. It was his choice to stay in that congregation and be married by this pastor, and to have children baptized by him. Obama embraced that association.

In the end, his speech is rhetoric. It matters not how well it was composed or delivered, it was a means to disassociate himself politically from a man that had willing embraced spiritually for a great number of years.

Question: Are you responsible for what your spiritual leader says from the pulpit?

To some degree - YES. That is, as a long time member of a church, you should be well aware of your pastor's views. If those views are contradictory to your beliefs, then it begs a couple of questions - Why are you attending that church? Why would you allow yourself to be associated with that pastor? As Christians, we are called to guard our doctrine closely. If we support a church that explicitly (or implicitly) contradicts our core beliefs, then we need to challenge the source and reconcile those differences, or leave that body.

A reasonable person has to conclude, despite Obama’s recent assertions – his long time attendance and good standing with his church and pastor is evidence that he agrees with their teachings. Guilt by association? YES – but it is what one should expect and assume when one actively and deliberately participates in an organization with a charter of promoting social, spiritual, or political views. It was his choice to stay in that congregation and be married by this pastor, and to have children baptized by him. Obama embraced that association.

In the end, his speech is rhetoric. It matters not how well it was composed or delivered, it was a means to disassociate himself politically from a man that had willing embraced spiritually for a great number of years.

"Liberation Theology" did not originate in the Black churches in America.. It came from Latin America and has evolved into a Marxist ideology.

The Black Pastors and Christians I have known for over twenty years want NOTHING to do with this sort of "liberation".

They lead and attend multi-racial churches and work hard to improve the lives of ALL American people.

Please don't judge all Black American Christians by Pastor Wright and his congregation..

“Once a mind is freed from the Matrix it cannot be returned. People let it all go: fear, doubt and disbelief. Free your minds.” Change is coming.

Newsweek did a profile of Trinity UCC Church here:

http://www.newsweek.com/id/123604/page/1

I urge everyone to read it, to get a more rounded view of the church - rather than some out-of-context video clips that are circulating in the media.

If you think all that nonsence is "factual" then you are at odds with Obama, and I am at odds with you. Looks like you have some good company in here though, so by all means carry on.

So, is this the part where I'm supposed to use my "severely deluded and morally bankrupt" mind to respond in kind to your personal digs?

Yea, whatever.

Beverly,

The information was not linked from the Clinton campaign; Sean Hannity profiled and interview Pastor Jeremiah Wright last March (2007) and he made similar hateful statements at that interview. Also, the secular/left-wing media knew about this for sometime but left it in the sand like ostriches. Again, if my pastor made statements like his in the pulpit, I would've fled at the first mention of statements like Pastor Wrights. Also, Pastors are allegedly called by God; to speak what the Lord tells them to speak; I wouldn't think God would be pleased at his blasphemous words in the pulpit to Jesus's flock not Pastor Wright. In closing, Barack should've left that church a long time ago and why did he wait so long to make a speech. A sad situation.

I suppose some of you probably prefer your candidate's advisors to have some good experience in government. Good wholesome American patriots.. not these radical America haters. Yes?

Well congratulations to you.

http://www.examiner.com/a-977346~He_s_back__Sandy_Berger_now_advising_Hillary_Clinton.html?cid=rss-Washington_DC

Me, personally feel pastors of all colors have addressed issues concerning our country and other countries as well, which does not make it right. Their job as God has given them is to encourage, uplift and provide us a people strengthening in times of trouble. This pastor like many others is doing the same thing the media and the world is doing, which also does not surprise me. I feel the pastor was out of place,especially to use Mr Obama's name or any persons name to speak of how he feels about situations in this or another country. His personal feelings do not reflect his congregation but can be insulting and leading as it has done. Again, the pulpit has taken a personal approach to our countries situation and not a spiritual approach. We do not need the church to tear down our system but to encourage people to stand together for our government and the american people, no matter what race, color or creed. He was wrong !!!!!

Me, personally feel pastors of all colors have addressed issues concerning our country and other countries as well, which does not make it right. Their job as God has given them is to encourage, uplift and provide us a people strengthening in times of trouble. This pastor like many others is doing the same thing the media and the world is doing, which also does not surprise me. I feel the pastor was out of place,especially to use Mr Obama's name or any persons name to speak of how he feels about situations in this or another country. His personal feelings do not reflect his congregation but can be insulting and leading as it has done. Again, the pulpit has taken a personal approach to our countries situation and not a spiritual approach. We do not need the church to tear down our system but to encourage people to stand together for our government and the american people, no matter what race, color or creed. He was wrong !!!!!

I don't see much trouble with any of that Factual?, except the AIDs bit. Even then, you can't exactly say that the CDC and the Reagan administration handled it particularly well in the early days. If you can, do talk to some people that lost loved ones in the early 80s. It might actually open your mind up if you are brave enough and big enough to listen.

The concern about the planting of WMDs was a valid one, even if it didn't come to pass.

Tuskegee happened and it's well documented. I'm sorry that it disturbs you. It disturbs me too.

If you think our use of weapons that kill innocent civilians is somehow better, or more moral, than the terrorists' use of weapons that kill innocent civilians, then you are severely deluded and morally bankrupt.

Priver said: "People get really upset about what Obama's pastor has said in the past, but NOBODY says a thing when someone like Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson go on tv and say how 9/11 and Katrina came as 'God's retribution' because of gay people or Pagans."

You are kidding, right? Everyone ripped those 911 comments including other conservatives. Those two clowns even came back and "apologized".

Reading this thread, I know most of you don't believe in "wrong" unless we're talking about those you disagree with. Here is news for you - JW is WRONG both as an advisor and as a "christian" pastor.

Most of us attach ourselves to a leader man/woman and then hang on no matter what. Sometimes we do this because we like the canidate, sometimes it is because we loathe the enemy.

Obama should have jumped off the JW bandwagon years ago. He didn't. Now the ship is going down with him on board. Frankly it's sad because I liked him.

Wright's remarks legitimately may impugn Obama, where their relationship spanned 20 years: Wright brought Obama to Christianity, Married Obama to his wife, baptized his children, was his spirittual adviser, was the inspiration for his book's title "Audacity to Hope," and sat on his campaign's spiritual advisory committee.

Most reasonable American's are not dumbed down, but are able to see that Wright's statements are not true. The American government did not create the HIV virus to eliminate Blacks. 9/11 has nothing to do with America successfully bringing WWII to a conclusion by dropping the bomb on Japan. Thankfully, most Americans know this.

There is no diputing that BHO is a smooth speaker and he can give a speech like no other, BUT he can also cover his tracks like no other. He wants to be "poor pitiful me everyone is racist" - the fact still remains - he was closely associated, for 20+ years to a man that is an unamerican bigot - Do we really want a president that will tolerate this - no wonder he won't respect our flag he thinks it represents USA of kkk

TJ said: "I don't see anything inflammatory about those statements. They seem strike me as being factual."

Wright "factually" said:
The government lied about inventing the HIV virus as a means of genocide against people of color. The government lied! The government lied about Pearl Harbor. (cheering) They knew the Japanese were going to attack. Government's lied. We've got a paranoid group of patriots in power that now, in the interests of homeland stupidity (cheers) -- I mean homeland security. The government lied about the Tuskegee experiment. They purposely infected African-American men with syphilis! [snip] "Fighting for peace," is like raping for virginity. [snip] What's going on in white America, US of KKKA, black men turning on black men. That is fighting the wrong enemy. You both are the primary targets in an oppressive society, that sees both of you as a dangerous threat. [snip] We cannot see how what we are doing is the same thing Al-Qaeda is doing under a different color flag (cheers and applause), and guess what else? If they don't find them some weapons of mass destruction, they gonna do that like the LAPD (wild cheering) and plant some weapons of mass destruction.

I guess that stuff passes for "fact" on a WPO board like this one.

Obama's speech was brilliant but won't do the job. He needs totally to denounce and repudiate Wright. Wright's views encourage paranoia in a community, the black community, already in a serious state of mental, as well as social, illness. Black churches need to teach middle class morality not paranoia.

Lenny - my medications are just fine. Thank you very much for your concern. Continue to watch Fox News and listen to Rush Limbaugh.

Ms. Quinn,

Just curious. Why, on your blog, do you show snippets of comments only from Obama apologists? Scrolling down this page will show you that many are deeply troubled by Obama's association with Wright and what they have learned about the him. The same is true of those who have posted in response to the panelists.

Aren't you misleading those who visit your blog? Isn't the purpose of this blog to encourage dialogue?

Farnaz

GaryD writes: "Maybe because there are no innocent people, Bernadette? Which if Mr. Wright ever bothered to read that Bible on his pulpit he know."

A Christian that doesn't think there is any Age of Accountability. Interesting. So you think babies and young children that die before baptism go to hell. Stillborn babies go to hell too then. Aborted fetuses? Straight to hell with them too.

There are no innocents. Nice.

my to dine exploring as proud with box my is still I even that day.

Instead of this Obama red herring, people should continue paying attention to McCain's gross incompetence - and getting worse all the time.

Today in the news he made another huge gaff regarding Al qaeda in Iran during his current mid-east crusade (surprised he's not traveling with his other buddy, Dick Cheney). He doesn't know the difference between Shiite and Sunni, or where they're located, or the fact that Iran is Shiite....and the site of your next war if McCain's ever in charge.

McCain's favorite 'independent' Joe Lieberman had to whisper sweet nothings in his ear just to get him to shut up already - and get his facts straight.

I'll take Obama's brain power over the Bush/McCain numbskulls all day long - if politicians are guilty by association, we'd better put them all on trial....McCain pandering to the anti-gay, anti-feminist right wing evangelical factions is downright embarassing - to himself.

This guy is the most monumental sell-out in modern times - and he's all the GOP has got (aside from pal Joe Lieberman that is). Too bad about Joe - he was a powerful factor in why we don't have Al Gore in the White House today. Imagine a world without Bushco and his would-be successor, John McCain??

Well, glory be and hallelujah wouldn't that be great old world?!

Maybe because there are no innocent people, Bernadette? Which if Mr. Wright ever bothered to read that Bible on his pulpit he know.

Check it out - a new CBS poll today says Obama's numbers are sinking into the toilet. I guess all this Democratic support for hatemongers is turning average Americans away from Obama. Keep argueing and supporting these biggots but this new poll says it all! Ha !

I wonder if the Rev. Wright ever preached to his his flock about the value of education and the dangers of drugs, sex and guns? Maybe a lot more time on these subjects vs. blaming others would help the dear reverend reach the fulness of Christianity. And if does like the current bible, he should write his own version. Thomas Jefferson did. So did Martin Luther. So did many Christian members of the On Faith panel of religion specialists.

And expanding his own education in the field of genealogy and the historic Jesus would aid his sermons and attitude.

"God damn America...-for killing innocent people."

The question I have is why aren't we all standing up and applauding Rev. Wright? 

I question why every Catholic and Episcopalian priest is not preaching the same thing.  Wright has nothing for which to apologize; all our other religious leaders do.

This is why I left the Catholic Church and why I am now moviing into Obama's camp. We all need to attend churches like his.

Athena thinks Obama is a Patriot !
Athena thinks McCain is a fake Patriot !
Athena needs to break the prozacs in half !

"How should Barack Obama have responded to inflammatory remarks made by his former pastor, Dr. Jeremiah Wright?"

Exactly like he did.

Obama's situation is so bad, that not ony do true Patriots hate Obama, but even if you just kinda like America you have to hate Obama. He is an embarassment to the party!!!!!!!!

I knew the bandages covering the cuts and bruises from an unjust fight in American history would soon fall off during this presidential campaign.

The racial scars and deep wounds of an unforgettable past will never heal as long as the high humidity of tension and overheated opinions of others keep rising. The temperatures in race relations have been rising for some time. However, the heat during this presidential campaign is a result of an inferno of instigators who spend their time fanning the flames of distraction in an attempt to destroy the hope for real change in American government. Regardless; and like it or not, change is coming to America.

The truth is, freedom of speech is protected under the first amendment, and gives everyone the same rights—freedom of expression—right or wrong. But it does not mean that everyone agrees with what is said, whether it’s your pastor or your parents. And, if you disagree with what your parents say whether right, wrong, politically correct or not, they’re still your parents. And if you have an ounce of sense, you wouldn’t disown them because of what they said. Honestly, how can we be so illogical when it comes to politics? It makes no sense to hold someone accountable for what someone else says just on the basis of association. It makes about as much sense as holding your pet responsible for something your kid does.

It’s appalling that we are so easily distracted from the real issue at hand—America is at a crossroad— believe it or not. Change is coming; like it or not! However, change is not coming because of the power of one man or one woman (black or white). It’s coming through the power of prayer. And the prayer is—“Thy kingdom come and Thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven.”

It’s not about what Rev. Jeremiah Wright said years ago; it’s not about what Geraldine Ferraro said a week ago; it’s not about Senator Barack Obama’s association with Rev. Wright, or Senator Hillary Clinton’s association with Ms. Ferraro. This presidential election is really not about a black man, a white woman, nor an old white man. It’s really about America being one nation under one God, indivisible with liberty and justice for all. It’s about the American people making a decision about the future of this nation, and voting for the candidate they believe can lead this nation, bring back the honor and respect we once had in the United Nations, and care about all classes of the American people regardless of the color of their skin.

We cannot continue the masquerade— living by shady operations of an old “black and white” system rooted in a gloomy past, but saying we’re expecting a bright and hopeful future filled with good life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness for all people. We should be tired of leaders and role models setting poor examples—saying one thing, but doing something totally different, and then making excuses for bad decisions, and poor judgment, but not suffering the consequences of their sadistic behavior like everyone else.

It’s time we faced the real issue—all of us, regardless of the color of our skin, we have become an embarrassment to the whole world, and we continue with petty ploys that downplay the reality of our failure to live up to the real meaning of democracy.

If everyone would seriously ponder the economic crisis we’re in, the atmospheric changes we’re seeing, and the high level of immoral exposure we’re hearing about and seeing, you should question if there’s an unseen or unknown reason for these things happening at this particular time in America's history.

If in all honesty, you expect an answer you’ll get one. The answer could change your perspective as to why we sing, “God Bless America” and why “In God We Trust” is on our currency.

If your love for America is so shallow that you won't vote for someone because they won't wear a flag pin (made in China), or because of what their Pastor says when he gets worked up, then I feel sorry for you. I'm sure that Sen. McCain never goes anywhere without his flag pin, but he has consistently voted against raising veterans benefits - even though he IS one.

Faux patriots wear flag pins and have "support our troops" magentized ribbons on the back of their SUVs. REAL patriots push for better equipment, training, and benefits for our troops, and caring for them when they come home.

I'm a Democrat who can't stand Hillary and so I voted for Obama in the Illinois primary. Problem is, I love my country and am not ashamed to be an American. I have traveled to 14 other countries and America is by far the best. It is not perfect, but it is my home and I love it.

I feel like a knife has been stabbed through my heart by Obama's refusal to wear a flag pin, his wife being ashamed of America, and now his close close pastor (and campaign advisor) says "God D---America". Today's speech in front of a those flags was pure hypocracy.

I plan pull the handel and vote Republican for the first time in my life. (Hope my hand doesn't fall off!) God BLESS America!

No the government wasn't at fault for AIDS getting out of control. It was already out of control in the Non Western world before anyone here knew anything was wrong.

TJ there was no truth anywhere in that screed. None.

EVERYBODY NEEDS TO READ WHAT "BOBO SHANTI INI HAD TO SAY ABOUT THIS TOPIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Obama made the most perceptive and constructive speech about race since Martin Luther King.

Not a false note, every moral conclusion right on the money.

If my white grandmother makes a racist coment, I still love her as my grandmother, though i do not share her views.

If my Pastor, who is vehemently committed to justice, and who has grown up in the mid century of abominable treatment of Blacks by whites, I clearly state that i don't share his Anti-US sentiments but I consider him part of my family.

And as far as the country goes, I take this opportunity to affirm that we all, black white or whatever, need to work together to bind up our nation's wounds.

I don't deny that there are wounds. I affirm the human-ness of those wounds, and exhort us to bind them up.

And I tell the petty sensational game playing short sighted sector to work for positive change for a change.

i had to post the entire speech, because I KNOW none of the news organizations are going to put all of it up here for people to see and are only going to cherry pick what they think is the most important. And to do that is detrimental and tries to constrict what he's actually saying here.

This is absolutely astounding- and I want everyone to read it and really think about what he's saying. He addresses a lot of the points made here and more. Please read the ENTIRE speech and you may find your concerns addressed in here. I found all that and more.

"Two hundred and twenty one years ago, in a hall that still stands across the street, a group of men gathered and, with these simple words, launched America's improbable experiment in democracy."

"Farmers and scholars; statesmen and patriots who had traveled across an ocean to escape tyranny and persecution finally made real their declaration of independence at a Philadelphia convention that lasted through the spring of 1787."

"The document they produced was eventually signed but ultimately unfinished. It was stained by this nation's original sin of slavery, a question that divided the colonies and brought the convention to a stalemate until the founders chose to allow the slave trade to continue for at least 20 more years, and to leave any final resolution to future generations."

"Of course, the answer to the slavery question was already embedded within our Constitution -- a Constitution that had at its very core the ideal of equal citizenship under the law; a Constitution that promised its people liberty, and justice, and a union that could be and should be perfected over time."

"And yet words on a parchment would not be enough to deliver slaves from bondage, or provide men and women of every color and creed their full rights and obligations as citizens of the United States."

"What would be needed were Americans in successive generations who were willing to do their part -- through protests and struggle, on the streets and in the courts, through a civil war and civil disobedience and always at great risk -- to narrow that gap between the promise of our ideals and the reality of their time."

"This was one of the tasks we set forth at the beginning of this campaign -- to continue the long march of those who came before us, a march for a more just, more equal, more free, more caring and more prosperous America."

"I chose to run for the presidency at this moment in history because I believe deeply that we cannot solve the challenges of our time unless we solve them together -- unless we perfect our union by understanding that we may have different stories, but we hold common hopes; that we may not look the same and we may not have come from the same place, but we all want to move in the same direction -- towards a better future for our children and our grandchildren."

"This belief comes from my unyielding faith in the decency and generosity of the American people. But it also comes from my own American story."

"I am the son of a black man from Kenya and a white woman from Kansas. I was raised with the help of a white grandfather who survived a Depression to serve in Patton's Army during World War II and a white grandmother who worked on a bomber assembly line at Fort Leavenworth while he was overseas."

"I've gone to some of the best schools in America and lived in one of the world's poorest nations. I am married to a black American who carries within her the blood of slaves and slaveowners -- an inheritance we pass on to our two precious daughters."

"I have brothers, sisters, nieces, nephews, uncles and cousins, of every race and every hue, scattered across three continents, and for as long as I live, I will never forget that in no other country on Earth is my story even possible."

"It's a story that hasn't made me the most conventional candidate. But it is a story that has seared into my genetic makeup the idea that this nation is more than the sum of its parts -- that out of many, we are truly one."

"Throughout the first year of this campaign, against all predictions to the contrary, we saw how hungry the American people were for this message of unity."

"Despite the temptation to view my candidacy through a purely racial lens, we won commanding victories in states with some of the whitest populations in the country. In South Carolina, where the Confederate Flag still flies, we built a powerful coalition of African-Americans and white Americans."

"This is not to say that race has not been an issue in the campaign. At various stages in the campaign, some commentators have deemed me either "too black" or "not black enough." "

"We saw racial tensions bubble to the surface during the week before the South Carolina primary. The press has scoured every exit poll for the latest evidence of racial polarization, not just in terms of white and black, but black and brown as well."

"And yet, it has only been in the last couple of weeks that the discussion of race in this campaign has taken a particularly divisive turn."

"On one end of the spectrum, we've heard the implication that my candidacy is somehow an exercise in affirmative action, that it's based solely on the desire of wide-eyed liberals to purchase racial reconciliation on the cheap."

On the other end, we've heard my former pastor, Rev. Jeremiah Wright, use incendiary language to express views that have the potential not only to widen the racial divide, but views that denigrate both the greatness and the goodness of our nation -- that rightly offend white and black alike.

I have already condemned, in unequivocal terms, the statements of Reverend Wright that have caused such controversy. For some, nagging questions remain.

Did I know him to be an occasionally fierce critic of American domestic and foreign policy? Of course. Did I ever hear him make remarks that could be considered controversial while I sat in church? Yes. Did I strongly disagree with many of his political views? Absolutely -- just as I'm sure many of you have heard remarks from your pastors, priests or rabbis with which you strongly disagreed.

But the remarks that have caused this recent firestorm weren't simply controversial. They weren't simply a religious leader's effort to speak out against perceived injustice."

"Instead, they expressed a profoundly distorted view of this country -- a view that sees white racism as endemic, and that elevates what is wrong with America above all that we know is right with America, a view that sees the conflicts in the Middle East as rooted primarily in the actions of stalwart allies like Israel, instead of emanating from the perverse and hateful ideologies of radical Islam."

"As such, Reverend Wright's comments were not only wrong but divisive, divisive at a time when we need unity; racially charged at a time when we need to come together to solve a set of monumental problems -- two wars, a terrorist threat, a falling economy, a chronic health care crisis and potentially devastating climate change; problems that are neither black or white or Latino or Asian, but rather problems that confront us all."

"Given my background, my politics, and my professed values and ideals, there will no doubt be those for whom my statements of condemnation are not enough. Why associate myself with Reverend Wright in the first place, they may ask? Why not join another church?"

"And I confess that if all that I knew of Reverend Wright were the snippets of those sermons that have run in an endless loop on the television and YouTube, or if Trinity United Church of Christ conformed to the caricatures being peddled by some commentators, there is no doubt that I would react in much the same way"

"But the truth is, that isn't all that I know of the man. The man I met more than 20 years ago is a man who helped introduce me to my Christian faith, a man who spoke to me about our obligations to love one another; to care for the sick and lift up the poor."

"He is a man who served his country as a U.S. Marine, who has studied and lectured at some of the finest universities and seminaries in the country, and who for over thirty years led a church that serves the community by doing God's work here on Earth -- by housing the homeless, ministering to the needy, providing day care services and scholarships and prison ministries, and reaching out to those suffering from HIV/AIDS."

"In my first book, "Dreams From My Father," I described the experience of my first service at Trinity:

"People began to shout, to rise from their seats and clap and cry out, a forceful wind carrying the reverend's voice up into the rafters....And in that single note -- hope! -- I heard something else; at the foot of that cross, inside the thousands of churches across the city, I imagined the stories of ordinary black people merging with the stories of David and Goliath, Moses and Pharaoh, the Christians in the lion's den, Ezekiel's field of dry bones.

"Those stories -- of survival, and freedom, and hope -- became our story, my story; the blood that had spilled was our blood, the tears our tears; until this black church, on this bright day, seemed once more a vessel carrying the story of a people into future generations and into a larger world.

"Our trials and triumphs became at once unique and universal, black and more than black; in chronicling our journey, the stories and songs gave us a means to reclaim memories that we didn't need to feel shame about...memories that all people might study and cherish -- and with which we could start to rebuild."

That has been my experience at Trinity. Like other predominantly black churches across the country, Trinity embodies the black community in its entirety -- the doctor and the welfare mom, the model student and the former gang-banger.

Like other black churches, Trinity's services are full of raucous laughter and sometimes bawdy humor. They are full of dancing, clapping, screaming and shouting that may seem jarring to the untrained ear.

"The church contains in full the kindness and cruelty, the fierce intelligence and the shocking ignorance, the struggles and successes, the love and yes, the bitterness and bias that make up the black experience in America."

"And this helps explain, perhaps, my relationship with Rev. Wright. As imperfect as he may be, he has been like family to me. He strengthened my faith, officiated my wedding, and baptized my children."

"Not once in my conversations with him have I heard him talk about any ethnic group in derogatory terms, or treat whites with whom he interacted with anything but courtesy and respect. He contains within him the contradictions -- the good and the bad -- of the community that he has served diligently for so many years."

"I can no more disown him than I can disown the black community. I can no more disown him than I can my white grandmother -- a woman who helped raise me, a woman who sacrificed again and again for me, a woman who loves me as much as she loves anything in this world, but a woman who once confessed her fear of black men who passed by her on the street, and who on more than one occasion has uttered racial or ethnic stereotypes that made me cringe."

"These people are a part of me. And they are a part of America, this country that I love."

"Some will see this as an attempt to justify or excuse comments that are simply inexcusable. I can assure you it is not. I suppose the politically safe thing would be to move on from this episode and just hope that it fades into the woodwork."

"We can dismiss Reverend Wright as a crank or a demagogue, just as some have dismissed Geraldine Ferraro, in the aftermath of her recent statements, as harboring some deep-seated racial bias."

"But race is an issue that I believe this nation cannot afford to ignore right now. We would be making the same mistake that Reverend Wright made in his offending sermons about America -- to simplify and stereotype and amplify the negative to the point that it distorts reality."

"The fact is that the comments that have been made and the issues that have surfaced over the last few weeks reflect the complexities of race in this country that we've never really worked through -- a part of our union that we have yet to perfect."

"And if we walk away now, if we simply retreat into our respective corners, we will never be able to come together and solve challenges like health care, or education, or the need to find good jobs for every American."

"Understanding this reality requires a reminder of how we arrived at this point. As William Faulkner once wrote, "The past isn't dead and buried. In fact, it isn't even past." We do not need to recite here the history of racial injustice in this country."

"But we do need to remind ourselves that so many of the disparities that exist in the African-American community today can be directly traced to inequalities passed on from an earlier generation that suffered under the brutal legacy of slavery and Jim Crow."

"Segregated schools were, and are, inferior schools; we still haven't fixed them, fifty years after Brown vs. Board of Education, and the inferior education they provided, then and now, helps explain the pervasive achievement gap between today's black and white students."

"Legalized discrimination -- where blacks were prevented, often through violence, from owning property, or loans were not granted to African-American business owners, or black homeowners could not access FHA mortgages, or blacks were excluded from unions, or the police force, or fire departments -- meant that black families could not amass any meaningful wealth to bequeath to future generations."

"That history helps explain the wealth and income gap between black and white, and the concentrated pockets of poverty that persists in so many of today's urban and rural communities."

"A lack of economic opportunity among black men, and the shame and frustration that came from not being able to provide for one's family, contributed to the erosion of black families -- a problem that welfare policies for many years may have worsened."

"And the lack of basic services in so many urban black neighborhoods -- parks for kids to play in, police walking the beat, regular garbage pick-up and building code enforcement -- all helped create a cycle of violence, blight and neglect that continue to haunt us."

"This is the reality in which Reverend. Wright and other African-Americans of his generation grew up. They came of age in the late fifties and early sixties, a time when segregation was still the law of the land and opportunity was systematically constricted."

"What's remarkable is not how many failed in the face of discrimination, but rather how many men and women overcame the odds; how many were able to make a way out of no way for those like me who would come after them."

"But for all those who scratched and clawed their way to get a piece of the American Dream, there were many who didn't make it -- those who were ultimately defeated, in one way or another, by discrimination."

"That legacy of defeat was passed on to future generations -- those young men and, increasingly, young women who we see standing on street corners or languishing in our prisons, without hope or prospects for the future. Even for those blacks who did make it, questions of race, and racism, continue to define their worldview in fundamental ways."

"For the men and women of Reverend Wright's generation, the memories of humiliation and doubt and fear have not gone away; nor has the anger and the bitterness of those years."

"That anger may not get expressed in public, in front of white co-workers or white friends. But it does find voice in the barbershop or around the kitchen table. At times, that anger is exploited by politicians, to gin up votes along racial lines, or to make up for a politician's own failings."

"And occasionally it finds voice in the church on Sunday morning, in the pulpit and in the pews. The fact that so many people are surprised to hear that anger in some of Reverend Wright's sermons simply reminds us of the old truism that the most segregated hour in American life occurs on Sunday morning."

"That anger is not always productive; indeed, all too often it distracts attention from solving real problems; it keeps us from squarely facing our own complicity in our condition, and prevents the African-American community from forging the alliances it needs to bring about real change."

"But the anger is real; it is powerful; and to simply wish it away, to condemn it without understanding its roots, only serves to widen the chasm of misunderstanding that exists between the races."

"In fact, a similar anger exists within segments of the white community. Most working- and middle-class white Americans don't feel that they have been particularly privileged by their race."

"Their experience is the immigrant experience -- as far as they're concerned, no one's handed them anything, they've built it from scratch. They've worked hard all their lives, many times only to see their jobs shipped overseas or their pension dumped after a lifetime of labor."

"They are anxious about their futures, and feel their dreams slipping away; in an era of stagnant wages and global competition, opportunity comes to be seen as a zero sum game, in which your dreams come at my expense."

"So when they are told to bus their children to a school across town; when they hear that an African-American is getting an advantage in landing a good job or a spot in a good college because of an injustice that they themselves never committed; when they're told that their fears about crime in urban neighborhoods are somehow prejudiced, resentment builds over time."

"Like the anger within the black community, these resentments aren't always expressed in polite company. But they have helped shape the political landscape for at least a generation."

"Anger over welfare and affirmative action helped forge the Reagan Coalition. Politicians routinely exploited fears of crime for their own electoral ends. Talk show hosts and conservative commentators built entire careers unmasking bogus claims of racism while dismissing legitimate discussions of racial injustice and inequality as mere political correctness or reverse racism."

"Just as black anger often proved counterproductive, so have these white resentments distracted attention from the real culprits of the middle-class squeeze -- a corporate culture rife with inside dealing, questionable accounting practices and short-term greed; a Washington dominated by lobbyists and special interests; economic policies that favor the few over the many."

"And yet, to wish away the resentments of white Americans, to label them as misguided or even racist, without recognizing they are grounded in legitimate concerns -- this too widens the racial divide, and blocks the path to understanding."

"This is where we are right now. It's a racial stalemate we've been stuck in for years. Contrary to the claims of some of my critics, black and white, I have never been so naive as to believe that we can get beyond our racial divisions in a single election cycle, or with a single candidacy -- particularly a candidacy as imperfect as my own."

"But I have asserted a firm conviction -- a conviction rooted in my faith in God and my faith in the American people -- that working together we can move beyond some of our old racial wounds, and that in fact we have no choice if we are to continue on the path of a more perfect union."

"For the African-American community, that path means embracing the burdens of our past without becoming victims of our past. It means continuing to insist on a full measure of justice in every aspect of American life."

"But it also means binding our particular grievances -- for better health care, and better schools, and better jobs -- to the larger aspirations of all Americans, the white woman struggling to break the glass ceiling, the white man whose been laid off, the immigrant trying to feed his family."

"And it means taking full responsibility for own lives -- by demanding more from our fathers, and spending more time with our children, and reading to them, and teaching them that while they may face challenges and discrimination in their own lives, they must never succumb to despair or cynicism; they must always believe that they can write their own destiny."

"Ironically, this quintessentially American -- and yes, conservative -- notion of self-help found frequent expression in Reverend Wright's sermons. But what my former pastor too often failed to understand is that embarking on a program of self-help also requires a belief that society can change."

"The profound mistake of Reverend Wright's sermons is not that he spoke about racism in our society. It's that he spoke as if our society was static; as if no progress has been made; as if this country -- a country that has made it possible for one of his own members to run for the highest office in the land and build a coalition of white and black, Latino and Asian, rich and poor, young and old -- is still irrevocably bound to a tragic past."

"But what we know -- what we have seen -- is that America can change. That is the true genius of this nation. What we have already achieved gives us hope -- the audacity to hope -- for what we can and must achieve tomorrow."

"In the white community, the path to a more perfect union means acknowledging that what ails the African-American community does not just exist in the minds of black people; that the legacy of discrimination -- and current incidents of discrimination, while less overt than in the past -- are real and must be addressed."

"Not just with words, but with deeds -- by investing in our schools and our communities; by enforcing our civil rights laws and ensuring fairness in our criminal justice system; by providing this generation with ladders of opportunity that were unavailable for previous generations."

"It requires all Americans to realize that your dreams do not have to come at the expense of my dreams; that investing in the health, welfare and education of black and brown and white children will ultimately help all of America prosper."

"In the end, then, what is called for is nothing more, and nothing less, than what all the world's great religions demand -- that we do unto others as we would have them do unto us. Let us be our brother's keeper, Scripture tells us. Let us be our sister's keeper. Let us find that common stake we all have in one another, and let our politics reflect that spirit as well."

"For we have a choice in this country. We can accept a politics that breeds division, and conflict, and cynicism. We can tackle race only as spectacle -- as we did in the O.J. trial -- or in the wake of tragedy, as we did in the aftermath of Katrina -- or as fodder for the nightly news."

"We can play Reverend Wright's sermons on every channel, every day and talk about them from now until the election, and make the only question in this campaign whether or not the American people think that I somehow believe or sympathize with his most offensive words."

"We can pounce on some gaffe by a Hillary supporter as evidence that she's playing the race card, or we can speculate on whether white men will all flock to John McCain in the general election regardless of his policies."

"We can do that."

"But if we do, I can tell you that in the next election, we'll be talking about some other distraction. And then another one. And then another one. And nothing will change."

"That is one option. Or, at this moment, in this election, we can come together and say, "Not this time." This time we want to talk about the crumbling schools that are stealing the future of black children and white children and Asian children and Hispanic children and Native American children."

"This time we want to reject the cynicism that tells us that these kids can't learn; that those kids who don't look like us are somebody else's problem. The children of America are not those kids, they are our kids, and we will not let them fall behind in a 21st Century economy. Not this time."

"This time we want to talk about how the lines in the emergency room are filled with whites and blacks and Hispanics who do not have health care, who don't have the power on their own to overcome the special interests in Washington, but who can take them on if we do it together."

"This time we want to talk about the shuttered mills that once provided a decent life for men and women of every race, and the homes for sale that once belonged to Americans from every religion, every region, every walk of life."

"This time we want to talk about the fact that the real problem is not that someone who doesn't look like you might take your job; it's that the corporation you work for will ship it overseas for nothing more than a profit."

"This time we want to talk about the men and women of every color and creed who serve together, and fight together, and bleed together under the same proud flag."

"We want to talk about how to bring them home from a war that never should've been authorized and never should've been waged, and we want to talk about how we'll show our patriotism by caring for them, and their families, and giving them the benefits they have earned."

"I would not be running for president if I didn't believe with all my heart that this is what the vast majority of Americans want for this country. This union may never be perfect, but generation after generation has shown that it can always be perfected."

"And today, whenever I find myself feeling doubtful or cynical about this possibility, what gives me the most hope is the next generation -- the young people whose attitudes and beliefs and openness to change have already made history in this election."

"There is one story in particularly that I'd like to leave you with today -- a story I told when I had the great honor of speaking on Dr. King's birthday at his home church, Ebenezer Baptist, in Atlanta."

"There is a young, 23-year-old white woman named Ashley Baia who organized for our campaign in Florence, South Carolina. She had been working to organize a mostly African-American community since the beginning of this campaign, and one day she was at a roundtable discussion where everyone went around telling their story and why they were there."

"And Ashley said that when she was 9 years old, her mother got cancer. And because she had to miss days of work, she was let go and lost her health care. They had to file for bankruptcy, and that's when Ashley decided that she had to do something to help her mom."

"She knew that food was one of their most expensive costs, and so Ashley convinced her mother that what she really liked and really wanted to eat more than anything else was mustard and relish sandwiches. Because that was the cheapest way to eat."

"She did this for a year until her mom got better, and she told everyone at the roundtable that the reason she joined our campaign was so that she could help the millions of other children in the country who want and need to help their parents, too."

"Now Ashley might have made a different choice. Perhaps somebody told her along the way that the source of her mother's problems were blacks who were on welfare and too lazy to work, or Hispanics who were coming into the country illegally. But she didn't. She sought out allies in her fight against injustice."

"Anyway, Ashley finishes her story and then goes around the room and asks everyone else why they're supporting the campaign. They all have different stories and reasons. Many bring up a specific issue. And finally they come to this elderly black man who's been sitting there quietly the entire time."

"And Ashley asks him why he's there. And he does not bring up a specific issue. He does not say health care or the economy. He does not say education or the war. He does not say that he was there because of Barack Obama. He simply says to everyone in the room, "I am here because of Ashley." "

" "I'm here because of Ashley." By itself, that single moment of recognition between that young white girl and that old black man is not enough. It is not enough to give health care to the sick, or jobs to the jobless, or education to our children."

"But it is where we start. It is where our union grows stronger. And as so many generations have come to realize over the course of the two-hundred and twenty one years since a band of patriots signed that document in Philadelphia, that is where the perfection begins."

A pastor does not fully dictate a person's beliefs. Their purpose is to provide spiritual council and interpret the Bible to the best of their ability through the help of God. Some, however, use the time to elaboration on opinions that they hold to be true to themselves. But just as I can rant and rave about hating oatmeal, is the same a pastor can bash anything of their choice. My dislike for oatmeal may fall on deaf ears, even if I videotape it and put it on youtube, but the same could happen to a pastor's remarks. However, in this case the pastor had a member who was running for president. My question is would this pastor's expressions have been so controvercial had they just been from a random Afican American minister, instead of the "spiritual leader" of Sen. Obama?

A pastor does not fully dictate a person's beliefs. Their purpose is to provide spiritual council and interpret the Bible to the best of their ability through the help of God. Some, however, use the time to elaboration on opinions that they hold to be true to themselves. But just as I can rant and rave about hating oatmeal, is the same a pastor can bash anything of their choice. My dislike for oatmeal may fall on deaf ears, even if I videotape it and put it on youtube, but the same could happen to a pastor's remarks. However, in this case the pastor had a member who was running for president. My question is would this pastor's expressions have been so controvercial had they just been from a random Afican American minister, instead of the "spiritual leader" of Sen. Obama?

If you guys just concentrate on the Pastor's remarks instead of the issue about race as a whole you're still blind, and nobody can help you. And as Obama might say "...there will be no change," You'll be just as "stagnant" as the pastor.

If you guys just concentrate on the Pastor's remarks instead of the issue about race as a whole you're still blind, and nobody can help you. And as Obama might say "...there will be no change," You'll be just as "stagnant" as the pastor.

If you guys just concentrate on the Pastor's remarks instead of the issue about race as a whole you're still blind, and nobody can help you. And as Obama might say "...there will be no change," You'll be just as "stagnant" as the pastor.

Oh come on folks. The speech was Obama cant straight down the line. Long on oration short on reality. There are only two groups of people to whom race matters any more the Klan and their various allied groups which make up about 1% of the population. And the far left as exemplified by Obama, Hillary, and their assorted allies which make up entirely to large a proportion of this country for my taste.

The disagreement has never been about the goal both Republicans and Democrats and most other political bodies want to get to the same place, prosperity and freedom. They just have very different ideas about how best to get there and what it will look like when we arrive. Those on the left of the political spectrum believe that we can only get there with ever bigger government programs and ever more intrusive government. They won't admit the latter but the truth is you can't do 'from each according to their means to each according to their needs' without a very large and very intrusive government to assess exactly what those means and needs are.

There have been several comments about truth,facts, history, etc.

One thing that Bushco. has given the world is that we really have no good idea of what truth, facts, and history are, as it has basically been what those in charge (or write) say that it is. That is one of the many unintended consequences of lying us into war etc. Maybe that will be his real legacy - such as "Nero fiddling while Rome burned".

"Don't believe anything you hear [or read?] and only half of what you see" though often said in jest might be worthwhile to consider.

Maybe Obama should forget re-making the world in his own ideas [or as he has said, 'like it ought to be'] and concentrate on being a good President of the United States of America.

I'm a kindergarten P. E. instructor..i would like to get a job managing a NFL Team..does that sound preposterous to anyone?African Americans have proven they will vote for a black man even after he is seen sharing crack with a prostitute..Geraldine is absolutely correct. Obama wouldn't even be taken seriously if he weren't black..end of story. He is in no way experienced enough nor in any way shape form or fashion qualified for the top position in the world..Get REAL..after 20 years of exposure he doesn't even know what his Pastor is preaching and teaching his children, then how the heck is he going to run this country during the most crucial crossroads I have ever seen in my 63 years of life..Hillary is almost as big a joke..Wake up America..you can't see the forest for the trees.

I must really be missing something here.

People get really upset about what Obama's pastor has said in the past, but nobody says a thing when someone like Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson go on tv and say how 9/11 and Katrina came as 'God's retribution' because of gay people or Pagans. There are about 150+ people out of Liberty University working at very high levels of our government as we speak. Their religion is all over our current government. Where is the outrage over this??

The fact that Obama has not disowned Wright shows that he enjoys having someone around who he can disagree with. Something we all should have more of. Do we really want everyone in our life to agree with everything we say and do? I find that it's sometimes those people out there who I vehemently disagree with who make me think and help me clarify my views. And Wright, I'm positive, is not the only firebrand type of pastor out there.

For all those here who said that it's their responsibility to get up and walk out when their pastors say things that could be inflammatory, I seem to still be waiting for Falwell and Robertson's and Hagee's congregations to do the same. Exactly when can we expect McCain's speech?

This is a non issue. And I think Obama has handled it beautifully. I was unexpectedly surprised by his description of a 'fearful white grandmother' who has made disparaging remarks about blacks, because I too have such a person in my life, and her remarks as such are ones that are truly embarrassing, and came as a shock- but I love her to pieces, because she saved my family and I when we didn't have anywhere else to go.

Good for him.

Mr. Obama –

Notwithstanding the multitude of flags behindToo little, too late! Tell me the company you keep, and I’ll tell you who you are.

More IMPORTANTLY, however, is why NOBODY - Mr. Obama in his speech or members of the Press - has bothered to explain what Liberation Theology is, and why the Pastor’s messages, incendiary or not, brought back Mr. Obama to the church.

Liberation Theology was a movement that began in Latin America by Marxist priests, who believed that the church ought to concentrate its efforts on liberating the people of the world from poverty and oppression. This movement, in time, moved to the US.

There are at least four major factors that have played a significant role in the formulation of Latin American liberation theology, one of them being Jesuit priests that took to hart the influence of Kant, Hegel, and Karl Marx.

Liberation theologians (mostly Marxist Jesuits always at odds with the Catholic Church) agree with Marx's famous statement: "Hitherto philosophers have explained the world; OUR TASK IS TO CHANGE IT." They argue that theologians are not meant to be theoreticians but PRACTITIONERS ENGAGED IN THE STRUGGLE TO BRING ABOUT SOCIETY'S TRANSFORMATION.

The most interesting thing is that, once this ideology is in power, their “love for the individual” changes and it becomes quite tyrannical. Latin America is the mirror that tells us all about this tyranny.

There is no doubt in my mind that, for the past 20 years, Mr. Obama has been drinking the Marxist message that his pastor delivered. His limited, albeit extremely liberal, record in the Senate gives a good glimpse of what he believes in. Since the 60s, the Left has moved to bring about this change in the US – a change that will be disastrous for this great nation. All you have to do is to look at the former countries of the USSR to ascertain that utopian philosophies do not work, because each of us has different capabilities and each of us want to be in charge of our destiny. A clear example of this in the US is our educational system. To correct a wrong, and to accommodate multiculturalism, we lowered our standard of education to such a level that now ALL OF US are suffering the consequences.

Throughout history, advances have always been the work of an extremely small, frequently despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed by all-right thinking people. Whenever this tiny minority is kept from creating, or (as sometime happens) is driven out of a society, the people have always slip back into poverty – often, abject poverty. They call this “bad luck.” Is this sort of “bad luck” the change we want?

The famous philosopher, André Malraux, said: The Truth about a man lies first and foremost in what He hides. And nobody knows Mr. Obama, but we are beginning to get an idea of what he is all about.

E Favorite

Last Friday on Fox News he was interviewed and he denied he ever heard his Pastor's comments.

This lie was discussed on the Hannity show today so its a fact. They are going to bring this up again on TV and Radio.

If you guys just concentrate on the Pastor's remarks instead of the issue about race as a whole you're still blind, and nobody can help you. And as Obama might say "...there will be no change," You'll be just as "stagnant" as the pastor.

If you guys just concentrate on the Pastor's remarks instead of the issue about race as a whole you're still blind, and nobody can help you. And as Obama might say "...there will be no change," You'll be just as "stagnant" as the pastor.

If you guys just concentrate on the Pastor's remarks instead of the issue about race as a whole you're still blind, and nobody can help you. And as Obama might say "...there will be no change," You'll be just as "stagnant" as the pastor.

Dennis from Albany, you say: "Obama lied to us when he admitted this morning that he had indeed been present during Rev. Wright 's racist rants."

I missed that part of the speech. Please find it for me in the transcript. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/18/obama-race-speech-read-t_n_92077.html

What I found is this: "Did I ever hear him make remarks that could be considered controversial while I sat in church? Yes. Did I strongly disagree with many of his political views? Absolutely - just as I'm sure many of you have heard remarks from your pastors, priests, or rabbis with which you strongly disagreed."

Obviously he was talking about other controversial remarks, not the ones in the video clip. Do you really think he's so stupid to say one thing one day and lie about it 2 days later?

Please consider that you misunderstood, and if you can't find the part in his speech where he lied about his pastor's "racist rants," please don't repeat this misstatement again.

thanks.

So when Obama makes a stink about Ferraro's far more benign remarks, and Hillary didn't ask for Ferraro's immediate "resignation", she is a racist and a divider.

When Obama should have distanced himself from his own pastor's racist remark, he took his sweet time and made a speech about how we should all understand why his pastor is racist in the first place. Lets all sign Kumbaya and start forgetting that I threw the racist jab in the first place.

Hypocrite much?

Please, before making judgements based on a few taken-out-of-context clips, go to http://www.tucc.org/ and look at Trinity UCC's website for yourself. I did that last night and was very impressed with their teachings and community outreach. I think that you'll be surprised.

Then again, it's much easier to listen to the corporate media play clips over and over again, and have commentators tell you what to believe.

Disclaimer: I am not associated with Trinity UCC, nor the Obama campaign. I am not even a Christian. I supported Obama, but he wasn't my first, second, or third choice. I continue to support him, and think that this whole Pastor Wright thing is a smokescreen to hide the crazed rantings of people who have endorsed McCain.

Pastor Wright is essentially Right about HIV/AIDS. The Government purposely did not do it per Mr. Wright BUT:

The Government is totally complicit and responsible for its getting out of control not only here in the United States BUT world wide.

They never went and still have not gone to the source of the problem because they do not want to offend the Gay and Black Community who engage in Anal and Oral Sex BUT are letting these people(our family and extended family members) die in their teens 20', 30's or even worse live with debilitating diseases of years of a painful death.

The Blacks are doing the Down low (Anal Sex) routine which most of the time starts when they are in prison and have sex with who's their i.e. other men.

Gays have been left to pump out HIV like water out of a fire hose. Its non ending.

This has got to be debated and talked about but out of adversity comes good. Reverend Wright is RIGHT. The Black community is being devastated by HIV.

Its a big problem and the Government is responsible. There are Gay's in the Government that will rail at this post but they are the problem as they are in powerful positions and will not label Anal sex as the culprit.

Of course a congregant is not responsible for what the clergyperson preaches. However, if there is a long litany of hate-filled oratory in 20 years (or even just several speeches), then one can assume that the congregant agrees with his or her clergyperson on these issues. If he or she didn't agree, he or she would change congregations.

And where is the proof that the Clinton campaign is leaking this stuff? Anyone can be leaking it and my vote would be for those on the right side of the political spectrum.

I think Obama is losing his shine. Even though I voted for him, I worry that he is just like every other politician and there isn't much there on top of that.

if obama is responible for what his pastor says then every white person is responsible for slavery since you believe in the bible. the bible okays slavery

People, People, People. Let's not get it twisted. This bruhaha is nothing more than a Weapon of Mass Distraction. Let's stick to the issues of this campaign. Like a true instigator, Hillary and her camp have been playing the race card and sitting back hiding their hands with a "it wasn't me" look on their face.

How many pastors check with their members when preparing a sermon? Come on now, think! I agree with T.J. above. Review this country's history at home and abroad and you will see that the Pastor's remarks are factual. Truth is truth no matter how bad it hurts. And another thing, truth does not change!

People, People, People. Let's not get it twisted. This bruhaha is nothing more than a Weapon of Mass Distraction. Let's stick to the issues of this campaign. Like a true instigator, Hillary and her camp have been playing the race card and sitting back hiding their hands with a "it wasn't me" look on their face.

How many pastors check with their members when preparing a sermon? Come on now, think! I agree with T.J. above. Review this country's history at home and abroad and you will see that the Pastor's remarks are factual. Truth is truth no matter how bad it hurts. And another thing, truth does not change!

Anon claims: "Hillary Clinton has been helping people and improving the lives of others her ENTIRE life."

Then why are you going to vote for McCain?

No, you are not responsible - unless you are other than a liberal democrat.

Then the imagined wall between church and state comes tumbling down and anything goes.

You see, thats because liberal democrats are not really religious. They believe in the sanctity of homosexuality, the absolute right to gay marriage, the divine right to kill babies, and however many sexual partners as are convenient. Lying is also not a real big issue.

So, they are not responsible - because they eschew responsibility to begin with.

Obama sat in that church for TWENTY YEARS and hasn't done one thing about the racist preacher or the overwhelming racism that was present.

Not until it was convenient and important to him did he have one word to say about it.

He uses everything. Like sitting on the Oversight Committee on Afghanistan. He used it as a bragging point while doing NOTHING. Like years of no change, no nothing in Chicago - just using it to get further and a quarter million dollars from a criminal.

Mr. Obama only spoke today because his effort to get rid of his dirty laundry over the weekend didn't work.

He didn't care about racism or make one speech about it in all those TWENTY years. Instead, he bought into not pledging allegiance to the flag, not wearing a flag pin on his lapel to show his pride in America - and his wife's lack of pride. These things all speak to him agreeing with his pastor.

Mr. Obama is a phony. Plain and simple. And he hasn't done a thing to promote change anywhere in his life. Take a look:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDHsHM0laT8&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuB_W8o_UsU

Hillary Clinton has been helping people and improving the lives of others her ENTIRE life.

Mr. Do Nothing is all about himself.

Are you responsible for what your spiritual leader says from the pulpit?

Of course not. The pastor is responsible for what the pastor says.

Question,what should he have done? He's running for Pres., so just continue to lie. I was sleeping and not really paying attention. It was taken out of context. and the great Marion Barry line "the B... set me up" Another phony who can't stand up for what he believes.

First of all,the inflammatory videos were leaked to the public by the Clinton campaign. There is a six week gap for the public ,mainly undecided and easily influenced voters to simmer on this before the next elections. A television analyst got it right. This was not the time for Obama to make a speech in response to the problems with Rev. Wright. If so, I would have limited it to 2-3 minutes. The media has only pulled out of the speech what makes him look bad and will repeatedly play it for weeks in favor of the naturally losing Senator Clinton. Obama must stay focused he is running for President of the United States, not a civil rights leader. He should have simply admitted hearing inflammatory remarks by this pastor during a sermon on social issues and not try to explain these sermons to what he refers to as the "untrained ear". Senator Clinton is speaking today on Iraq in an odd tone of voice but looking focused on the issues people care about. The voters did not line up at their local caucus for race issues.

First of all,the inflammatory videos were leaked to the public by the Clinton campaign. There is a six week gap for the public ,mainly undecided and easily influenced voters to simmer on this before the next elections. A television analyst got it right. This was not the time for Obama to make a speech in response to the problems with Rev. Wright. If so, I would have limited it to 2-3 minutes. The media has only pulled out of the speech what makes him look bad and will repeatedly play it for weeks in favor of the naturally losing Senator Clinton. Obama must stay focused he is running for President of the United States, not a civil rights leader. He should have simply admitted hearing inflammatory remarks by this pastor during a sermon on social issues and not try to explain these sermons to what he refers to as the "untrained ear". Senator Clinton is speaking today on Iraq in an odd tone of voice but looking focused on the issues people care about. The voters did not line up at their local caucus for race issues.

I wonder if the Rev. Wright ever preached to his his flock about the value of education and the dangers of drugs, sex and guns? Maybe a lot more time on these subjects vs. blaming others would help the dear reverend reach the fulness of Christianity. And if does like the current bible, he should write his own version. Thomas Jefferson did. So did Martin Luther. So did many Christian members of the On Faith panel of religion specialists.

And expanding his own education in the field of genealogy and the historic Jesus would aid his sermons and attitude.

When you go to somebody for as long as 20 years, it indicates faith in his philosophy. Suddenly distancing from that faith for political reasons does not make sense. It only means that you have lost faith in your faith. This is political flip flop.

I read this Guy's speech today. He's a snake oil salesman at best and should be impeached from the Senate.
Words are meaningless. He stayed with this bigot anti American for 20 years. Only the naive would believe he did not know this bigot from year one. Wright did not change his spots overnight.

Below is what Obama says from his book. Now this I think has credibility and proves he is a liar and a bigot also. He is also connected to a real crook in Chicago that has yet to be vetted. This guy belongs in jail not running for President. America has been suckered in big time.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/17/AR2008031702541_Comments.html#none

jdoyle29 wrote:
Obama isn't racist? read his own words.

Obama from Dreams of my Father

"I CEASED TO ADVERTISE MY MOTHER'S RACE AT THE AGE OF 12 OR 13, when I began to suspect that by doing so I was ingratiating myself to whites"

" I FOUND A SOLACE IN NURSING A PERVASIVE SENSE OF GRIEVANCE AND ANIMOSITY AGAINST MY MOTHER'S RACE".

, "The emotion between the races could never be pure..... The THE OTHER RACE (WHITE) WOULD ALWAYS REMAIN JUST THAT: MENACING, ALIEN AND APART"

"never emulate white men and brown men whose fates didn't speak to my own. IT WAS INTO MY FATHER'S IMAGE , THE BLACK MAN, THE SON OF AFRICA, THAT I'D PACKED ALL THE ATTRIBUTES I SOUGHT IN MYSELF.

"THAT HATE HADN'T GONE AWAY," he wrote, BLAMING WHITE PEOPLE,- SOME CRUEL, SOME IGNORANT, sometimes a single face, sometimes just a faceless image of a system claiming power over our lives."

No not I am responsible for what my religious leader of says from the pulpit. Actually in this case it is not about whether he is responsible for the Pastor's words but about did he ever talked about it, questioned it, to just try to down play it when it was made public.

If we look at the real religious teachings in Qura'n, Old and New Testaments and the leaders as in prophets and messenger of God, they all taughts us to speak the truth even if it is against you or your parents or next of kin, stand by the truth, and not deceive or try to cover the truth.

Th case in point, here we have someone (the pastor) who praises Farakhan, said what he said that now everyone knows and happened to be pastor and spiritual leader of Barack Hussain Obama who is looking at the highest office on earth, and will be paid by my dime.

Then we have the devoted follower Mr. Obama who replied that he was not aware or present in the congreagtion when the words were said. Come on, here is a campaign that watches every word anyone says against their man like a hawk or a vulture, call people racist for a single disgagreement, Refuses to acknowledge or condemn until got totally cornered.

Same is the case with the Farakhan's endorsement of Obama, he didn't condemn him until got cornered.

Can anybody say that he does not know or not there when Michelle Obama uttered famous "first time really proud" of America "sermon." There is no comments or condemnation of it because the media has not cornered him about it. Everybody was busy in the primary and campaign of deception remains in full swing.

So it is not about the "pastor's words" it is about the pattern of deception. As someone who has studied the law, both Obama and I know that there is a great difference between the "freedom of speech" and "hateful speech." It is the "blinded by the light, colors, and charisma" followers who need to see the difference.

Thank you.

Najam, NJ

Bird Dog, McCain has accepted endorsements from much worse than Wright, Hagee is a prime example of this. Where is the media firestrom? Why isn't McCain having to explain his glowing acceptence of these endorsements?

Are American citizens responsible for what George Bush says?

I am a retired US Army veteran who has paid my dues to this nation. I am also an Asian-American who grew up in this country and have seen and also experienced (in far less manner than my African-American friends have) the unbridled and overt bigotry and prejudice of many white Americans towards African-Americans in particular and all nonwhites in general.

Except for the part where Rev. Wright said, "God damn America" and his inane comment about AIDS being introduced by the whites etc., I did not find any of the other statements so far attributed to Rev. Wright as factually incorrect and unworthy of condemnation by him or anyone else who has half a brain of objectivity. Even now, we are supposed to be exporting democracy overseas, but are'nt we doing that "selectively" in Iraq, Afghanistan and Cuba while we are keeping quite about the lack of it in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, even Libya, Pakistan, China with its Tibetan suppression, Myanmar etc..??It is this kind of doublespeak by our white politicians that trigger the anger among those who can think for themselves. I do not blame Rev. Wright for his condemnations of White America's behaviors towards the nonwhite nations as well as the poor and de facto disenfranchised African-Americans and Latinos. Dont we do that by having fewer voting centers equipped with old and non-functional voting machines where minorities are predominant?

We kept silent for decades when Mandela was languishing in jail. We winked and nodded at apartheid. We armed Bin Laden and Taliban to fight the Soviets. We armed and supported Saddam to fight against Iran. We finished off Allende and saw to the demise of Mossadeq in Iran and propped up the Shah. One can go on and on recounting the incalculable damage many of our so-called leaders have done to the good name and value of this nation and the principles on which this country was founded.

Reg. Obama. As far as I am concerned, he is a breath of fresh air. But, I have no illusion that he will succeed and become the nominee of the Democrativ Party. I hope that he does. I doubt whether the white media would allow that to happen. The talk radio hosts and the media are doing a fine job of brain-washing the whites and latinos to vote against Obama. In Ohio and Texas we now have solid evidence how the Republicans voted for Hillary just to keep Obama out. That was instigated by Limbaugh and his cronies.

Obama did a magnificent job in his address today, asking for all Americans to engage in a serious introspection about the need to move forward towards a more perfect union where hyphenated Americanism can be buried and forgotten. No red America, no blue America, no white America, no Latino America, no Asian America, etc., etc. We will never have in our life time, a united America if we elect either Hillary or Mccain.

In my view, Obama is the current best hope we have to pull together peoples of all races, religions and ethnicity to move America forward before George Herbert Hoover (Dubya) Bush makes us into a pauperized America with his adventurism overseas! God save America, and God bless America.

I am a retired US Army veteran who has paid my dues to this nation. I am also an Asian-American who grew up in this country and have seen and also experienced (in far less manner than my African-American friends have) the unbridled and overt bigotry and prejudice of many white Americans towards African-Americans in particular and all nonwhites in general.

Except for the part where Rev. Wright said, "God damn America" and his inane comment about AIDS being introduced by the whites etc., I did not find any of the other statements so far attributed to Rev. Wright as factually incorrect and unworthy of condemnation by him or anyone else who has half a brain of objectivity. Even now, we are supposed to be exporting democracy overseas, but are'nt we doing that "selectively" in Iraq, Afghanistan and Cuba while we are keeping quite about the lack of it in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, even Libya, Pakistan, China with its Tibetan suppression, Myanmar etc..??It is this kind of doublespeak by our white politicians that trigger the anger among those who can think for themselves. I do not blame Rev. Wright for his condemnations of White America's behaviors towards the nonwhite nations as well as the poor and de facto disenfranchised African-Americans and Latinos. Dont we do that by having fewer voting centers equipped with old and non-functional voting machines where minorities are predominant?

We kept silent for decades when Mandela was languishing in jail. We winked and nodded at apartheid. We armed Bin Laden and Taliban to fight the Soviets. We armed and supported Saddam to fight against Iran. We finished off Allende and saw to the demise of Mossadeq in Iran and propped up the Shah. One can go on and on recounting the incalculable damage many of our so-called leaders have done to the good name and value of this nation and the principles on which this country was founded.

Reg. Obama. As far as I am concerned, he is a breath of fresh air. But, I have no illusion that he will succeed and become the nominee of the Democrativ Party. I hope that he does. I doubt whether the white media would allow that to happen. The talk radio hosts and the media are doing a fine job of brain-washing the whites and latinos to vote against Obama. In Ohio and Texas we now have solid evidence how the Republicans voted for Hillary just to keep Obama out. That was instigated by Limbaugh and his cronies.

Obama did a magnificent job in his address today, asking for all Americans to engage in a serious introspection about the need to move forward towards a more perfect union where hyphenated Americanism can be buried and forgotten. No red America, no blue America, no white America, no Latino America, no Asian America, etc., etc. We will never have in our life time, a united America if we elect either Hillary or Mccain.

In my view, Obama is the current best hope we have to pull together peoples of all races, religions and ethnicity to move America forward before George Herbert Hoover (Dubya) Bush makes us into a pauperized America with his adventurism overseas! God save America, and God bless America.

I am a retired US Army veteran who has paid my dues to this nation. I am also an Asian-American who grew up in this country and have seen and also experienced (in far less manner than my African-American friends have) the unbridled and overt bigotry and prejudice of many white Americans towards African-Americans in particular and all nonwhites in general.

Except for the part where Rev. Wright said, "God damn America" and his inane comment about AIDS being introduced by the whites etc., I did not find any of the other statements so far attributed to Rev. Wright as factually incorrect and unworthy of condemnation by him or anyone else who has half a brain of objectivity. Even now, we are supposed to be exporting democracy overseas, but are'nt we doing that "selectively" in Iraq, Afghanistan and Cuba while we are keeping quite about the lack of it in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, even Libya, Pakistan, China with its Tibetan suppression, Myanmar etc..??It is this kind of doublespeak by our white politicians that trigger the anger among those who can think for themselves. I do not blame Rev. Wright for his condemnations of White America's behaviors towards the nonwhite nations as well as the poor and de facto disenfranchised African-Americans and Latinos. Dont we do that by having fewer voting centers equipped with old and non-functional voting machines where minorities are predominant?

We kept silent for decades when Mandela was languishing in jail. We winked and nodded at apartheid. We armed Bin Laden and Taliban to fight the Soviets. We armed and supported Saddam to fight against Iran. We finished off Allende and saw to the demise of Mossadeq in Iran and propped up the Shah. One can go on and on recounting the incalculable damage many of our so-called leaders have done to the good name and value of this nation and the principles on which this country was founded.

Reg. Obama. As far as I am concerned, he is a breath of fresh air. But, I have no illusion that he will succeed and become the nominee of the Democrativ Party. I hope that he does. I doubt whether the white media would allow that to happen. The talk radio hosts and the media are doing a fine job of brain-washing the whites and latinos to vote against Obama. In Ohio and Texas we now have solid evidence how the Republicans voted for Hillary just to keep Obama out. That was instigated by Limbaugh and his cronies.

Obama did a magnificent job in his address today, asking for all Americans to engage in a serious introspection about the need to move forward towards a more perfect union where hyphenated Americanism can be buried and forgotten. No red America, no blue America, no white America, no Latino America, no Asian America, etc., etc. We will never have in our life time, a united America if we elect either Hillary or Mccain.

In my view, Obama is the current best hope we have to pull together peoples of all races, religions and ethnicity to move America forward before George Herbert Hoover (Dubya) Bush makes us into a pauperized America with his adventurism overseas! God save America, and God bless America.

I am a retired US Army veteran who has paid my dues to this nation. I am also an Asian-American who grew up in this country and have seen and also experienced (in far less manner than my African-American friends have) the unbridled and overt bigotry and prejudice of many white Americans towards African-Americans in particular and all nonwhites in general.

Except for the part where Rev. Wright said, "God damn America" and his inane comment about AIDS being introduced by the whites etc., I did not find any of the other statements so far attributed to Rev. Wright as factually incorrect and unworthy of condemnation by him or anyone else who has half a brain of objectivity. Even now, we are supposed to be exporting democracy overseas, but are'nt we doing that "selectively" in Iraq, Afghanistan and Cuba while we are keeping quite about the lack of it in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, even Libya, Pakistan, China with its Tibetan suppression, Myanmar etc..??It is this kind of doublespeak by our white politicians that trigger the anger among those who can think for themselves. I do not blame Rev. Wright for his condemnations of White America's behaviors towards the nonwhite nations as well as the poor and de facto disenfranchised African-Americans and Latinos. Dont we do that by having fewer voting centers equipped with old and non-functional voting machines where minorities are predominant?

We kept silent for decades when Mandela was languishing in jail. We winked and nodded at apartheid. We armed Bin Laden and Taliban to fight the Soviets. We armed and supported Saddam to fight against Iran. We finished off Allende and saw to the demise of Mossadeq in Iran and propped up the Shah. One can go on and on recounting the incalculable damage many of our so-called leaders have done to the good name and value of this nation and the principles on which this country was founded.

Reg. Obama. As far as I am concerned, he is a breath of fresh air. But, I have no illusion that he will succeed and become the nominee of the Democrativ Party. I hope that he does. I doubt whether the white media would allow that to happen. The talk radio hosts and the media are doing a fine job of brain-washing the whites and latinos to vote against Obama. In Ohio and Texas we now have solid evidence how the Republicans voted for Hillary just to keep Obama out. That was instigated by Limbaugh and his cronies.

Obama did a magnificent job in his address today, asking for all Americans to engage in a serious introspection about the need to move forward towards a more perfect union where hyphenated Americanism can be buried and forgotten. No red America, no blue America, no white America, no Latino America, no Asian America, etc., etc. We will never have in our life time, a united America if we elect either Hillary or Mccain.

In my view, Obama is the current best hope we have to pull together peoples of all races, religions and ethnicity to move America forward before George Herbert Hoover (Dubya) Bush makes us into a pauperized America with his adventurism overseas! God save America, and God bless America.

If a congregant is to be held responsible for what a minister says what's the role of the deacons, bishops, elders, and teachers? As far as I know Obama didn't serve in any of those capacities.

And since the particular church is reputed to have white as well as black members I'm doubtful that the white members considered the minister's comments to be racist.

The fact is that the old style politicians like Hillary and McCain don't know how to react by a strong challenger such as Obama. They're counting on the traditional tactics of appealing to people's prejudices to eliminate Obama from office.

So right now we have three candidates. One is an old white man who wants to fight a 100 year war that will cost the nation's taxpayers over $100 Trillion and countless lives. One is an old white woman who wants to create her socialist paradise by making people dependent upon the government for all of their needs. Her health care plan is going to cost the taxpayers $2-3 Trillion every year until it bankrupts the nation. The other is a young bi-racial man that's 100 times more articulate than Bush is and who says that he wants to end the war that's destroying our economy. He says that he wants to improve our nation. His main problem, according to some, is that he had a nutty minister.

Those are the choices. Pick one. Pay the price. But stop lying about the phoney reasons why you're picking the any one of them.

To Birddog:

Tell me, where in American history has America treated ANYONE fairly. America, "sweet land of Liberty, had to enact constitutional amendments to ALLOW woman, and people of color to vote. WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!!! This counrty was founded on inequality and NOW YOU WANT SOMEONE, THE BLACK CANDIDATE TO GAURANTEE HE WILL BE FAIR!! Why now???? Where was your request for this in the beginning?

This is why America is the laughing stock of the world. He "claim" to fight for justice around the world, yet we have inequality here.

This is the most hypocitical nation in the world - PERIOD!!!

We will never get past this type of foollishness, because, yet again, America is in denial.

Sad

Haiti vs. Cuba~~

Let me get this straight-- it only took Obama 20 years to figure out that many of the remarks made by his pastor were racist. I wonder how long it would have taken him to come to that conclusion if he weren't attempting to be the Democratic candidate for president. This man doesn't want to be President of the United States, he wants to be President of the United African-American States. Certainly, one can't hold Obama responsible for statements made by his pastor, but he should be held responsible for not taking issue with them, or better yet, finding a different church. Racism is just as wrong whether it's against blacks or whites. One can only imagine the uproar if a white presidential candidate belonged to an openly racist church.

Let me get this straight-- it only took Obama 20 years to figure out that many of the remarks made by his pastor were racist. I wonder how long it would have taken him to come to that conclusion if he weren't attempting to be the Democratic candidate for president. This man doesn't want to be President of the United States, he wants to be President of the United African-American States. Certainly, one can't Obama responsible for statements made by his pastor, but he should be held responsible for not taking issue with them, or better yet, finding a different church. Racism is just as wrong whether it's against blacks or whites. One can only imagine the uproar if a white presidential candidate belonged to an openly racist church.

The Rev. Mr. Wright made more than a few isolated comments. He apparently has an entire philosophy of Black Liberation Theology which he espouses and which drives his sermons.

As an Episcopalean, I often don't agree with the particular opinions of my pastor, but in general I do agree with the overall philosophy he--and my church--espouse. In fact, there's been a dispute over gay marriage in the Church hierarchy that has driven a number of Episcopal churches in our parish to dissociate from the rest of us. On important matters of deeply felt belief, one should be willing to stand up and be counted, even if it means dissociating from the church.

As a concerned American and voter, I am more interested in the policy agenda of the candidates than what their pastors preached about on a Sunday morning. Pastors are voters too and they have opinions. To hold Senators Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, and John McCain responsible for the pronouncements of their pastors is grossly irresponsible and a complete waste of valuable time that should be spent on matters of social justice, fairness, poverty, hope, empowerment, and on the things that elevate all of us to greater heights. The media has a responsibility to refocus this presidential campiagn back to the bread and butter issues that affect millions of families in this country. Senator Obama is not responsible for what Rev. Wright said from the puplit. These are grown men who can hold their own and account for their words and actions. If you must, then hold Rev. Wright responsible for his pronouncements to which he is entitled. It would be wrong to hold Senators Clinton and McCain responsible for what their pastors say from the puplit. That's not the American way. Individual responsibility and accountability is and should be the American way. We need to get out of this business of judgement, condemnation and repudiation of persons. Let the focus be on government policies that create the enabling environments for jobs that pay a living wage; health care system that cares for people's health; foreign policies that depict our nation as a partner in global peace and stability; domestic policies that restore hope and confidence in the American people about their government, and investing in the future of our children and generations to come.

Are American citizens responsible for what George Bush says?

When Tammie Fay Baker and her husband called for the murder of Venezuala's president, did America ask whom follows them?

It seems America is looking for any reason to find fault with a Black man in America today.

Go figure that one out!

Patrick

Peggy shouts: "I KNEW THERE WAS SOMETHING ABOUT THE GUY I DIDN'T LIKE...JUST COULD NOT PUT MY FINGER ON IT."

Come now. Be honest with us.

Recently some were taking pains to make the country think that Obama was a Muslim. Showing pictures of him decked out in Muslim garb, or stressing his middle name "Hussein".

I for one am happy to find out that he does indeed attend Church and has a pastor.

Two questions?

1)Can we as citizens of the US under a prospective Obama Administration expect this fellow to treat All citizens with an equal hand, if he willing belonged to a raciest congregation that made no secret of its hatred of others dependent on their skin color?

2) What would be the storey and consequential media firestorm if Hillary or John McCain belonged to a Church that was led by an openly raciest minister?

Tell me who your friends are and I will tell you who you are! Obama needs to step down in oreder to give democrats chance to win White House in this ellection. I am democrat but if Obama wins dem. nomination I will vote for republicans for the first time in my life.

I KNEW THERE WAS SOMETHING ABOUT THE GUY I DIDN'T LIKE...JUST COULD NOT PUT MY FINGER ON IT..PERHAPS ITS NOT ONLY HIS FULL NAME, OR HIS SPOUSE WHO HAS ONLY RECENTLY BEEN PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN...EXCUSE ME..."AN AFRICAN AMERICAN"...HOWEVER...ATTENDING A DISGUSTING CHURCH WITH AN INCREDIBLY LOUD AND OBNOXIOUS "AFRICAN AMERICAN" SCREAMING HATRED...FOR 20 YEARS CERTAINLY DOES MAKE UP MY MIND REGARDING HIS AGENDA....CALL ME AN AMERICAN PERIOD.

I KNEW THERE WAS SOMETHING ABOUT THE GUY I DIDN'T LIKE...JUST COULD NOT PUT MY FINGER ON IT..PERHAPS ITS NOT ONLY HIS FULL NAME, OR HIS SPOUSE WHO HAS ONLY RECENTLY BEEN PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN...EXCUSE ME..."AN AFRICAN AMERICAN"...HOWEVER...ATTENDING A DISGUSTING CHURCH WITH AN INCREDIBLY LOUD AND OBNOXIOUS "AFRICAN AMERICAN" SCREAMING HATRED...FOR 20 YEARS CERTAINLY DOES MAKE UP MY MIND REGARDING HIS AGENDA....CALL ME AN AMERICAN PERIOD.

Barack Obama is not responsible for Rev. Dr. Wright's words. HOWEVER, Obama has chosen, for twenty years, to associate with this congregation and it's ministry (of which Dr. Wright's words are representative). A valid question is "Why?"

Barack Obama is not responsible for Rev. Dr. Wright's words. HOWEVER, Obama has chosen, for twenty years, to associate with this congregation and it's ministry (of which Dr. Wright's words are representative). A valid question is "Why?"

Obviously, a lot of people have made up their mind based on a ten-second sound bite of one or two speeches. However, for those few of you who are willing to keep an open mind, go out to http://www.tucc.org/ and view their website (and some of the videos) for yourself. I was impressed with the church and their teachings. It sounds like these sound bites were clipped then taken way out of context. (Disclaimer: I have no connection to TUCC. I'm not even a Christian. I am an Obama supporter, but mostly because I don't like HRC.)

Also, I think that people should give Rev. Wright a pass for 9/11 thing. Look at the date the speech was given - 9/16/01. A lot of heated rhetoric was flying around back then, about who was to blame, etc. I mean, his response makes more sense than Jerry Falwell saying that gays, abortionists, and Pagans were responsible for 9/11!

Why should Obama respond at all? No one is questioning McCain and his spiritual leaders like Robertson or Falwell who blamed 9/11 on lesbians and gays. Double standard here?

It seems we change the rules as it suits us. McCain is not responsible for who he associates with but look at the uneven firestorm against Obama. Makes you think. I don't agree with the Rev. but to hold a Obama responsible for what Rev. Wright has said and to do so so viciously is unfair and racist. I guess racism doesn't exist as long as no one brings it up. I wasn't offended by what the Rev. said but his tone and choice of words is what I don't agree with. Racial lines still divide this country and it would be a shame to let go of such a great candidate over this nonsense.

you are only responsible if you STAY

Obama wants to talk to leaders of nasty nations but can't talk to his own "uncle" the preacher.

I am Roman Catholic. During my 50+ years on this earth, I know, and have known, many priests. Some are friends, some are not. Some are liberal, some are conservative. Some I admire greatly, some I do not. Some are racists, and at least one is a child molester.

I am not responsible for their views; nor am I responsible for their actions.

My faith is my own.

Shame on Barak for belonging to this race-bating church.

If John McCains pastor substituted the word "black" and preached the same sermons, he would be drubbed out of the campaign.

Shame, shame, shame

Obama's failure to vehemently condemn "Reverend" Wright's sermons, is the same as a German failing to repudiate the speeches and writings of Adolf Hitler. Hate speech is hate speech, regardless of the color or history of the speaker. Christianity is about the brotherhood of man, turning the other cheek, and overcoming hate with love. Obama chose to associate himself with a pastor who spewed the antithesis of Christianity. It wasn't one rogue speech, or meeting with the pastor, it was by choice, a long term association. Obama chose to expose himself to the lessons of hate, choosing to sit through from vile sermons. Choosing to welcome hatred into his life and his family.

I am an undecided African-Amercian woman voter. Barack Obama is one of the most political of politicians in my opinion so he has not fully won my respect. In all the speeches I have heard so far he came off as a overly diplomatic and seemingly desires to "be all things to all men." I believe he can distance himself from the pastor's negative image without vehemently denouncing him, expecially when they have had a very close relationship in the past. My perception of him changed when he did that. In one of the last debates he was asked if he wanted Louis Farrakhan's vote, another African-American leader whose views he has repudiated, and instead of saying he wants everyone's vote he answered that he did not agree with Farrakhan's views. There are some things, such as his view on civil unions that he has been open about and decided to "agree to disagree." He should take that approach more often, because there is no way he is going to please everyone on any given issue. No one is perfect including Pastor Wright and Obama should not be held accountable for his pastor's flaws. However,I am beginning to wonder if Obama has the character flaw of abandoning those close to him if they give him a bad name. Would he have done the same thing if it was a family memeber or even if it was his wife who was scrutinized when she said "for the first time in my life I'm proud of this country."

I am an undecided African-Amercian woman voter. Barack Obama is one of the most political of politicians in my opinion so he has not fully won my respect. In all the speeches I have heard so far he came off as a overly diplomatic and seemingly desires to "be all things to all men." I believe he can distance himself from the pastor's negative image without vehemently denouncing him, expecially when they have had a very close relationship in the past. My perception of him changed when he did that. In one of the last debates he was asked if he wanted Louis Farrakhan's vote, another African-American leader whose views he has repudiated, and instead of saying he wants everyone's vote he answered that he did not agree with Farrakhan's views. There are some things, such as his view on civil unions that he has been open about and decided to "agree to disagree." He should take that approach more often, because there is no way he is going to please everyone on any given issue. No one is perfect including Pastor Wright and Obama should not be held accountable for his pastor's flaws. However,I am beginning to wonder if Obama has the character flaw of abandoning those close to him if they give him a bad name. Would he have done the same thing if it was a family memeber or even if it was his wife who was scrutinized when she said "for the first time in my life I'm proud of this country."

I was disappointed in some of Obama's seeming equivocations, his adroit, almost too clever use of sophistries and the underwhelming passion of a man flogged by the bitterness, anger and fear of a bigoted America. But he at least had the courage to stand by his friend when discarding his friend might have gained him the Presidency of the United States. That requires a certain amount of strength and honor I haven't seen displayed by anyone else during this campaign. I think on that basis alone I might be able to vote for this man. We shall see. As for the preacher? He needs to pray a lot more.

Regarding Obama and what Wright has said, Rezko has done etc. Obama is not responsible for their actions any more than Hillary is responsible for Bills or Ferraro's actions. One note on the Ferraro issue, we did not get all googoo eyed at the prospect of electing an African American in Iowa. Ferraro is 180 degress from the truth, skin color had nothing to do with it as it should be.

Change a few words in Rev. Wright's comments and he sounds just like the President of Iran with one exception:

"Hillary is married to Bill, and Bill has been good to us. No, he ain't. Bill did us just like he did Monica Lewinsky."

-- Sermon, January 2008

Regarding Obama and what Wright has said, Rezko has done etc. Obama is not responsible for their actions any more than Hillary is responsible for Bills or Ferraro's actions. One note on the Ferraro issue, we did not get all googoo eyed at the prospect of electing an African American in Iowa. Ferraro is 180 degress from the truth, skin color had nothing to do with it as it should be.

No, of course we are not responsible for what comes out of our pastor's mouths nor anyone else. But Wright's statements are a strong political weapon for the Clintons and the right wing. They will not readily give it up.
Obama had to talk about this issue. It is the elephant in the living room. NO ONE is going to stop calling him black. But many in the Clinton campaign and on the right have tried to paint him not just as the black candidate, but the radical black candidate.
His speech was magnificent. Those who are so vehemently against him will continue to be. Those of us who see him as the future of American and what America can be were not disappointed. There are those for whom Obama could not do anything right in their opinion. It would not matter what he said in this speech. They have already made up their minds.

Certainly you are not responsible for what your pastor says, but if those remarks are not in keeping with your interepretation of the faith and make you uncomfortable, why not leave the church? I think that's the question some people have asked of Obama, and it makes sense. If enough members believe the pastor is wrong, it is not impossible for the congregation to remove the pastor or even in some cases to make a wholesale departure of offended members who then start a new congregation. To sit and say nothing implies assent. However, many Christians would argue that it's better to stay and work for change than to run away from the problem. Obama waited a bit too long to say what he said, but his reaction was tempered with reason.

Bobo Shanti INI wrote: ...."While African Americans rarely point a finger of blame or carry an attitude of vengance,...."

WHAT?!? Are you living in the same country as I am?

I can't even begin to imagine how one man could be responsible for the words of another. For one, Obama is the Presidential candidate and Wright is the pastor. Wright is backing Obama, not the other way around. I mean, should we have crucified George W. Bush for all the bigots, rednecks, KKK members and Neo-Nazi's that most likely supported his presidency?? (Don't answer that question...lol)

You can't stop a man from supporting a candidate....and, no candidate should be held to explain the words of one of his supporters. Even if he did attend the church for a long time, Obama doesn't have to believe every personal belief that his pastor has. We go to church to fellowship in the Word of the Lord....not the "word" of the Pastor. Humans are humans and we all have our opinions....there's no need to align Obama's campaign with the beliefs of one man.

No we are not responsible for what our preacher says from the pulpit. That is like saying every college student is responsible for what his or her professor teaches about.

At any church, or school, you will have preachers or teachers that you enjoy 95% of the time. Obviously what was said was wrong, but how can you put that on Barack Obama? His preacher is a grown man is he not? Barack Obama should not have to preview everything anyone connected to him wants to say in public.

I think it's utterly ridiculous to "tie" someone to each and every word that his/her spiritual leader speaks! I have certainly been a member of various churches over the years, and while there were many things with which I and the pastor may have been in agreement, there were many that we were not. There were times that I pointed out those things; and other times that I did not. You are not always going to agree with people who are important in your life -- whether it's your pastor, your best friend, or your spouse. So what do you do? Leave your spouse because you don't see eye-to-eye on something? End a friendship because of a disagreement?

Come on people! Give it a rest! We really need to move on ... and let the candidates talk about what's REALLY important. We can't afford to be sidetracked this way ...

As an African American woman, I believe that Obama handled this issue very well. I would have been disappointed had he condemned Rev. Wright--the person for these snipits of comments chosen from hundreds of sermons that he's preached. I would also have been very disappointed had he not condemned the statements made by Rev. Wright in question. The comments were inflammatory and while there may be some truth to them, we as African Americans need to understand our past, learn from it, and use our experiences to make certain that we are truly progressing to ensure that we and our children will never be in that position again. Unfortunately, the elders of our generations have endured some struggles that understandably would generate such comments, but because we or they've endured these actions don't mean that we should continue to bedamned America as if nothing but evil has come from it. At some point we have to begin the healing process, not forgetting the past, but living in the present and future.

Obama is running for the position of President of the United States, not the President of Black People. As such, he has to conduct himself in a manner that represents all of the people, not just African Americans. On the other hand, he was right to not condem his Pastor as I am sure that there is more good that comes out of his church as there is of these snipits of comments. We are all human, and I'm certain there is not a person here in these United States that hasn't said something about this country or a race of gender of people in this country that's contrary to the degree of response that was received by Rev. Wright's comments. To say that comments like this are typical of words preached at all African American churches would be unfair; but to say that "most" Pastors of churches have made comments that slam in the face of what a reasonable person would consider appropriate is a fair statement. I've been a member of my church for over 15 years and I can say with absolute certainty that all the good that's in me can be contributed to the messages that I received from my Pastor as he has lead me to Christ and His goodness. I can also say that there have been times that my Pastor has made comments that I absolutely disagreed with, but had I walked out of the church based upon those comments, I would have lost so much more than I would have gained by leaving. I guess what we have to realize is that Pastors are human too, and they will say things that to some of us are reprehensible, but does that truly make them evil because we disagree with them?

Again I say that Obama handled this situation very well and it shows that in the face of challenge, he is able to separate the person from their negative actions. Now isn't that a wonderful quality to have in our President?

Not responsible for what they say, but for how we react. Obama can't ask to have it both ways. Unfortunately, his candidacy is increasingly a house of cards that can not stand up to closer scrutiny.

So America has the twin bubbles of Obama's transformational candidacy (one American dream) and the housing/mortgage bubble (the classic American dream)..... Sigh.

Not responsible for what they say, but for how we react. Obama can't ask to have it both ways. Unfortunately, his candidacy is increasingly a house of cards that can not stand up to closer scrutiny.

So America has the twin bubbles of Obama's transformational candidacy (one American dream) and the housing/mortgage bubble (the classic American dream)..... Sigh.

Not responsible for what they say, but for how we react. Obama can't ask to have it both ways. Unfortunately, his candidacy is increasingly a house of cards that can not stand up to closer scrutiny.

So America has the twin bubbles of Obama's transformational candidacy (one American dream) and the housing/mortgage bubble (the classic American dream)..... Sigh.

Is someone responsible for their self-proclaimed "spiritual mentor" of twenty years when he spews hate from the pulpit?

I should certainly hope so! Especially when that person is running for the highest office in the land, especially when the very foundation of his candidacy is based on uniting a tattered nation.

Obama lied to us when he admitted this morning that he had indeed been present during Rev. Wright 's racist rants. And did nothing about it.

This is the same person who wants your vote so he will be empowered to bring about change in this country, change in our international relations, but cannot confront the pastor in his own church about concerns he has about his fiery rhetoric.

Well, those ought to be some meetings Obama plans on having with Ahmadinejad, Chavez, et al.

At least we've found out now before electing another lier-in-chief.

"TJ :
I don't see anything inflammatory about those statements. They seem strike me as being factual.

Does the truth really hurt so bad that we have to raise this big stink over hearing it? Have we been dumbed down that far already?

How pathetic."

Precisely. I'm afraid the answer is, "Yes," many people have been dumbed down that far. And you're right, it's pathetic.

There are times, depending on the circumstances, when I think a congregation _may_ be held to some extent partly responsible for what their church's minister says. In this case, however, there's no need for any apology on the part of the minister, the congregation and, least of all, of Barack Obama.

This brouhaha is a fabrication and the work of a politically-motivated vitrual 'lynch-mob'.

The people making all the denunciations don't really give a damn about any principles worth defending. If they did, Bush and Cheney would have already been impeached and removed from office and they'd have been tried and convicted of war crimes. If they did, Hillary Clinton and John McCain wouldn't be their preferred candidates. These people care for nothing that deserves to be called respectable principle. They're a mob bent on carrying out a hatchet-job.

To hell with them!

No we arent responsible. This is just an excuse for racists to beat up on Obama and attack him.

No we arent responsible. This is just an excuse for racists to beat up on Obama and attack him.

One is not responsible for what one's pastor says but one is responsible to get one's butt up and walk out when such inflammatory un-american rants are made. If one does not do that then one is in effect condoning such remarks by one's continued presence there and listening to such tripe.
I can guarantee you that if it were HRC's pastor and she had spent 20 years aligned with this guy the MSM would be howling for blood from the rooftops and so would everyone else.
I listened to Wright's remarks and was appalled at the anti-american rhetoric coming out of his mouth. No wonder Michelle Obama could say that for the first time she could be proud of her country ( in her 40's ). I can see where she got that from and I don't want such minded people in the WH, period. Give me a break !!

No we arent responsible. This is just an excuse for racists to beat up on Obama and attack him.

Yes, Yes, Yes
Everything The Pastor said is Historically AND Presently accurate. Africans in America have never been allowed the opportunity to adress certain societal Ills and when we do, because of the extremely detrimental nature of those ills, The mere topics alone get everyone
heated. No one wants to accept responsibility for such terrible act against humanity that still Plague the world today. While African Americans rarely point a finger of blame or carry an attitude of vengance, the natural reaction is to assume that the victim is going to one day retaliate. We as African People brought to the west through Slavery simply want equal rights and justice for the unfortute that has occured. Without blame but simply to recognize the systematic way in which Blacks (worldwide) have been kept under an overall state of oppression- whether or not we want to accept this horrible fact does not make it less of a fact. The quality of African American social, and communal life has declined ever since the reconstruction period. There is much documented information on the systematic oppression of Blacks in this country (USA) that one need not take my word but as Levar Burton (Reading Rainbow/ROOTS-ironically) put it, "you can read it for yourself"
*Barak Obama's Church Pastor is saying nothing to the contrary of truth. He is speaking directly of some of the things that need to be changed! HELLO!
Of course some will say that "other groups have been oppresed as well" but I am respondiong to this article so I will speak to those of its contents. There are those that consider the pastors remarks as whinning and will say "my great great grandfather came to this contry with nothing and made it so why can't the blacks?" I will again speak of the SYSTEMATIC OPPRESION faced by the African Americans or "Africans in America" Again, there was a period immediatly after slavey when one will find the American African's econimic and social Position in Dark contrast (much better actually speaking) to current day. I am a schoolteacher who has lost numerous jobs and been repeatedly repramanded for making children (of all races) aware of their American History simply for attempting to get them to become aware of the REASONS FOR CHANGE - We all know too well of the problems on every scale of society and regardless of race good must conquer evil and as long as evil is prevalent we must identify it if to conquer with good. People fear the truth but they also fear the effects of the lie that we now see. We can all do better but that pastor just spoke that forbidden truth. OBAMA can know that it is truth and say "Yes it is true" But it will speak to the spirit of Americans if they will allow a president to be one who accepts truth or if they want the same thing. It is indeed time for change. Blessed Love to you one and All! I leave with 7 words of Love: God is Love so LET US ALL LOVE

Question: Are you responsible for what your spiritual leader says from the pulpit?

To answer the question, I do hope not. But I don't necessarily consider the preacher I listen to on Sunday to be my 'spiritual leader'.

But Obama does have quite a dilemma. He shouldn't have challenged Geraldine Farrero.

Obama can't solve all the racial problems but he could restore the Constitution of the United States of America as the governing document of life in these United States. If I were advising him I would recommend that he concentrate on restoring the constitutional government and win or lose on that since he has been a constitutional lawyer.

In this latest speech, Obama handled the current controversy with Rev. Wright exceptionally well, while seizing this opportunity open the discussion door toward healing our countries racial frustrations.

This speech transcended politics and became a human speech. This was this generation's "I Have A Dream" speech.

In this latest speech, Obama handled the current controversy with Rev. Wright exceptionally well, while seizing this opportunity open the discussion door toward healing our countries racial frustrations.

This speech transcended politics and became a human speech. This was this generation's "I Have A Dream" speech.

I don't see anything inflammatory about those statements. They seem strike me as being factual.

Does the truth really hurt so bad that we have to raise this big stink over hearing it? Have we been dumbed down that far already?

How pathetic.