Readers’ Responses to Our Question (265)

Farnaz

Thanks for the compliment. We recognise kindness in others only because we have it in ourselves. Same applies to love.

A few years ago I used to say that my body was that of a Jew and my heart that of a Christian and my soul that of a Muslim (i.e. submitted/surrendered)

Since then, I have outgrown this; having taken a year of inward contemplation. I have come to the realisation that human spirit is much larger than what we know. It encompasses the whole universe and beyond, but only if the vessel holding it allows it to explore its highest potential. All religions came to teach us this but somehow the followers boxed themselves in and assumed that their way was/is the only way. They separated themselves from the rest just as they construed that God was separate from them. Hence they mirrored their own belief; my own religion (Islam)including. But that is not the case with The God that I have come to know.

Some of the things that curbs such a human potential are: race, religion, tribe, a closed mind and oddly enough too much intellectualism, for the more the mind dominates the less the heart questions and visa versa.

In other words, the realm of the spirit is understood only through the heart. The mind handles physical stuff very well but it has to be put aside when the matter requires heart connection. Very much like cutting the pieces of wood to build a house requires a saw but from then on one has to pick up a hammer to nail the thing together. The saw would be of no more use to build that house.

Why do I say these things? I have no idea.

Khuda negahdar.
Ahmed

Ahmed,

God bless you for saying those things. You are very kind.

Farnaz

History tells us stories of men and women who have changed our country by developing ideas and using good judgement based on both the negatives and the positives they have seen and heard. These very experiences have made them stronger in their convictions that hatred, divisiveness and inaccuracies will weaken our country. Think about how many Americans were raised by parents, teachers, and pastors to think that another race was inferior to themselves. And, yet, brilliant and compassionate citizens went on to change our country...to think differently. Barak Obama has opened his eyes and ears to all the words we say and because of this he has opened his heart and mind to the posibilites of hope, change and rational thinking. This is leadership we need!

History tells us stories of men and women who have changed our country by developing ideas and using good judgement based on both the negatives and the positives they have seen and heard. These very experiences have made them stronger in their convictions that hatred, divisiveness and inaccuracies will weaken our country. Think about how many Americans were raised by parents, teachers, and pastors to think that another race was inferior to themselves. And, yet, brilliant and compassionate citizens went on to change our country...to think differently. Barak Obama has opened his eyes and ears to all the words we say and because of this he has opened his heart and mind to the posibilites of hope, change and rational thinking. This is leadership we need!

Farnaz

Shalom

Far left? What does it matter where the truth lies. Seek it from Left or right, North or South. I do not wish to be pigeon-holes. Labels put us in boxes.

Point is what was reported as being said by the said pastor. If it can be refuted that he did not say that, then I stand corrected, otherwise what I expressed stands.

Anyway its good to have a Kalimi on this forum. Now we have to find a Mizrahi, I do like them; perhaps being part Arab and in love with Morocco.

By the way, reading your account, I would have given you shelter at the cost of my own life and that is from the heart.

My quest in life is to unite opposing hearts and I will go to whatever length. To this end I have been called a fool (by my wife) but never an idiot.

Salamati - cheers :)
Ahmed

There are few Americans who would propose that Jews are "silenced" in America.
The Neocons control the President and entire government. The movie industry is controlled by Jewish filmakers and studio owners- newspapers, radio, indeed all media is filtered through the Jewish lens.

Criticism of the apartheid state of Israel is not even allowed! Look at what happened to Arun Gandhi when he dared to criticize Israel on these very boards.
He was kicked out fo the Institute of Peace that he, himself founded, just because he said that Israel should stop using the past as an excuse to oppress the Palestinians!

Farnaz is clearly not in America to make such a deluded statement.
One cannot even refer to Jews in any way that is not supremely complimentary without instant screams of "anti-semitism".
Isn't this an American blog? Has anyone seen any "silencing" of Jews on here?
Hardly. Just the opposite.

Hey Farnaz,

I thought you'd split. What's up with this moving and hiding questions? Quinn's new blog innovation?

Josh

Ahmed,

I don't disagree with you, but Mother Jones is far left, not what most would consider "objective," and indeed MJ does not pretend to be. You probably know this, but here it is.

John D. Prince,

Jews can't discuss their oppression. They can't discuss racists such as Farakhan. They can't discuss racism against them in the US or anywhere.
They are instantly silenced. Don't use us as one of your examples.

Also, black and Jewish is a false binary. There are hundreds of thousands of black Jews, to use AmeriChristian "racial" distinctions. I am brown and Jewish.

I mean no disrespect for Christian people, but there you have it.

Farnaz

Robert

I have been called many names but idiot is not one of them. Still abuse is a natural form of defense by the illiterate.

Please go read the link.then comment. It is in English after all.

Here it is again to save you searching:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article19533.htm

And please any comments, make it constructive if you can. Like the source of the article is totally wrong or Parsley never said anything like that or he meant this, that or the other. Something intelligent that we all can follow, not just calling me an idiot, coz that ain't intelligent. That's evading the reality.

Cheers.

If a Jewish person complains about their oppression or expresses just anger over Hitler’s Germany people do not consider them Anti-German? No. If a Black person expresses anger over the reality of oppression while giving examples of their unjust treatment why are they being racist? No! They have the right to express disgust over the history of the nightmare that was bestowed upon them. If we are complacent over the actions of those in the past we are doomed to repeat those injustices. I am a white guy who would argue that anyone has the absolute right, the constitutional right to express themselves and the anger they may feel over injustice, oppression, and discrimination. Those who use their freedom of speech in this manner are not acting out of racist actions. Now I have heard only the comments that Rev. Wright has made from major media clips and the conservative echo chamber on A.M. radio. From what I heard I saw nothing that was reverse racism. If this attack on Obama and Wright are the best the Republican attack machine can muster we are in a sad state of political history. The issues that matter to the Nation are being ignored, and for good reason the issues are pressing and could cost the Republican Party the national election if they were address and debated as much as the Wright issue. I smell the perfume of distraction from the flower of deceptive tactical assassins. While we wallow in debt, war, constitutional crisis, and hundreds of more important issues. We cannot allow this bullfight to continue because we the people are the bull and the current debate is the matador.

Felders-

I heard Sally Quinn on MSNBC today too.

Unfortunately- she stretched the truth so far it snapped and broke. I bet that's going to leave a bruise to the soul..

As I listen to you on MSNBC, this morning you really put things into perpestives concerning Rev. Wright. If everyone took clips from Bill Clinton, Monica, add Ms. Flowers, add Clinton saying he did not have sex with that woman, add the dress and add the other women he was involved with and seeing this over and over again, would be alarming to people. I wish you could go on all the networks especially Fox and say what you said this morning on MSNBC. I also believe just because your a member of a church doesn't mean your there every sunday. I've been a member of my church for 15 years, sometimes I might miss 3 or 4 sundays. My pastor has also tied scriptures to certain political views. When Jessie Jackson made racial statements while he was Bill Clinton's spiritual adviser no one rode his statement to death nor we haven't heard much about the invitation Mr. Wright got to the White House from the Clintons. Americans,listen to the whole sermon and make your decision about Mr. Wright. I do believe the media has to move on from this but it does help Hillary and McCain.

This is to the first post from ahmed from bahrain...

Here is your quote;
"Amazing in a supposedly free society that Wright's remarks is replayed by every US news media and tv channel, yet MacCain's spiritual leader Parsley spews even more venomous charge and no US media demands any explanation from MacCain. It is ignored."

Do you not see how rediculous you sound...
Parsley so called "venomous charge" was against the Catholic church not against a race of people or his own country, how can you even compare the two? You must be an idiot!!!

Amazing in a supposedly free society that Wright's remarks is replayed by every US news media and tv channel, yet MacCain's spiritual leader Parsley spews even more venomous charge and no US media demands any explanation from MacCain. It is ignored.

How is that such double standards apply in a supposedly free society? I guess its free for all when it comes to bashing Muslims just because they are blatantly Muslims but no person can criticise what US policy has done in the Middle East for the last 50 years. That is unpatriotic.

Here read it for yourself:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article19533.htm

and if we only practiced, if we only spent as much effort and energy cultivating the quality of God, as we do towards fueling and titillating our intellect.... how much more evolved we would all be.

GOD IS LOVE:

meditate, cultivate, be disciplined in assimilating loving thoughts, loving words, loving deeds.

Every argument for the invasion of Iraq has fallen by the wayside - what does the occupation of Iraq have to do with wars with Iran and North Korea?? Other than being a good staging area for the future invasion of Iran?? And the price of oil keeps going up, rather than way down as predicted by Bush war policy architects.

Besides, the beer is much cheaper in New Orleans and the natives are friendlier. It's a national treasure and strategic seaport. And just on general principle alone, well worth restoring - and perhaps even saving from further devastation if the civil engineers will do the job right this time. It is part of the USA after all.....the argument to let it flounder is utter nonsense.

Someone is going to sell us the oil in Iraq, so no fears there. Perhaps it will even be the people that actually own the oil - the Iraqis themselves!

Political pundits are already placing the debacle in Iraq among the top 5 worst political decisions ever made - throughout history. Now that is quite an accomplishment and a rare list of companions indeed. Certainly worth a measly trillion bucks and counting.........

A trillion dollars is a bargain considering what nuclear war vs Iran and North Korea would cost.

Teddy's "Carry a Big (now expensive) Stick" still holds today.
from :
http://money.cnn.com/2007/10/24/news/economy/cbo_testimony/index.htm

" The wars in Iraq, Afghanistan and anti terrorist efforts abroad could cost the country $2.4 trillion over the next ten years, according to a report Wednesday.

The money, over 70 percent of which would go to support operations in Iraq, includes the estimated $600 billion spent since 2001, Congressional Budget Office Director Peter Orszag said in testimony before the House Budget Committee. That estimate includes projected interest, since the government is borrowing most of the funds required.

The $2.4 trillion would pay to keep 75,000 troops deployed overseas from 2013 to 2017. About 210,000 troops are currently deployed. It does not include the Pentagon's normal spending, which in 2007 is estimated to be about $450 billion."

And it is Allah (and his buddy Mo) and his Sunni vs. Shiite 800 year blood feud that are keeping us in Iraq. Iran's (more Allah) continued war rhetoric is also not helping the Peace efforts nor our efforts to reduce defense spending.
And the tens of thousands of dead and maimed in Iraq are due to this same bloody feud. (4000 US troops and 82,109 – 89,605 Iraqi civilians http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ )

And just think a simple, inexpensive deflawing of Islam would solve all these problems. Here again are the four major flaws/errors in Islam:
1. Belief in "pretty/ugly wingie thingies".

2. Belief that an hallucinating, illiterate Arab did actually talk to the "pretty Gabriel" in the hot "Gabe" cave and therein received the warmongering and anti-female words and resultant laws now listed in the koran.

3. That Sunnis are superior to Shiites in all aspects of life. And Shiites think the same way about Sunnis.

4. That Islam is perfect and the koran inherently condones no sin even though the 24/7, 800 year-old blood feud between Sunnis and Shiites gives significant credence that greed, hate, suicides, assassinations, maiming, and murder are condoned by the koran. Having multiple wives also gives significant credence to the sins of rape, adultery, lust and polygamy. The condoned treatment of these wives gives credence that the koran allows the sins of hatred, anger and greed.

Or we could simply send Allah a bill for the trillion. His oil reserves in Iraq (112 billion barrels) at $100/barrel should cover it nicely.

I wonder how much oil there is under New Orleans????

Observer12 wrote:

What I'd really like to see is a considered essay on the dimensions of OnFaith, what is seeks to accomplish, the interrelations among religion, nation, politics, ethnicity, etc. Questions deriving from such an essay might be interesting, indded.

Amen, Observer, Amen.

The question is why we continue to revisit this question.

Time to move on. Should any facts reveal themselves regarding Wright, Obama, et al., or should I say if the media chooses to reveal them, then we can return to the question.

Meacham and Quinn would do well to consider a different topic, pose another question.

What I'd really like to see is a considered essay on the dimensions of OnFaith, what is seeks to accomplish, the interrelations among religion, nation, politics, ethnicity, etc. Questions deriving from such an essay might be interesting, indded.

Gary my Friend

All of us free-thinking Americans can make up our own minds as to whether spending
4,000 lives of our American Brothers and Sisters
5 trillion dollars that could have wiped out Cancer on the earth
120.000 Iraqi lives
laying waste to political and economic stability in the Middle East
Opening Access for Al queda to come into Iraq pretty well uncontested, when they weren't there before

has been good for America (never mind the world) or bad.

65 percent of your wise fellow Americans think it was a tragic decision.

So basically your argument Mr. James is that since it is just your typical leftist rant, Pastor Wrights comments are perfectly acceptable.

Sorry I don't buy it. Nor do I buy the noxious idea that we should have just left 3 divisions on the Arabian peninsula to face 9 plus in Iraq. And taken our troops home. And almost certainly guaranteed we'd have had to go back in and kick Saddam out yet again.

There are many aspects to this complicated case, and here are two:

Theoretical and Practical

Theoretically, it is clearly possible for a Preacher to be beyond the moral pale and deserve the condemnation of society AND his parishioners.

You have to decide whether Rev Wright is Wrong on this dimension.

Practically, there is little doubt tht Mr Taylor is Emphatically Correct in saying that the duty of a Preacher is to speak Truth to Power, not toady up to power. This is surely what Jesus did, and it got him crucified.

The sins of Racism are of an immense scale. Doesn't mean we whites have to be paralysed with guilt about the sins of our fathers, but it means we have a moral duty to come to grips with them.

The SINS of our country in going to WAR without threat are similarly heinous, and a reflection of our sorry history of insensitivity to those parts of the world that are MUCH poorer and less powerful than we are. The arrogance and ignorance of the Bush administration in waging this war is a Sin, if you believe in God, and if you believe in a God who punishes Sin, it is surely a Sin that such a God would punish (damn) America for.

So, the nerve of Rev Wright to speak to truth. To power, nonetheless.

Some one please tell me where I can go to copy and paste my responses from the last time this question or one very like it was asked.

"The Associated Press
Tuesday, March 25, 2008; 12:18 PM

GAITHERSBURG, Md. (AP) -- Montgomery County police have charged a former minister at a Gaithersburg church with sexually abusing a female youth choir member.

Police say 47-year-old Timothy Chun-Chock Mann worked at the First Baptist Church on West Diamond Avenue when the alleged abuse began in 1992 and continued until 1996.

Police have accused Mann of abusing the youth choir member mostly in his church office. The choir member was 14 when the alleged abuse began.

Mann now lives in Hoover, Alabama, and works as a choir director in Birmingham. He has been charged with third-degree sex offense and child abuse.

Mann turned himself in to Montgomery County police March 20 and was released on $100,000 bond."

I would hope that America has more fear of the ACTIONS committed by priests/ reverends/ ministers who abuse underage children within the sanctuary of the Lord. Rev. Wright has NOTHING on these types of monsters who, strange to say, receive a lot more support from their congregations than would seem reasonable considering the treachery of their crimes. Is it more acceptable to be a child molestor as a priest in America? There was more of a public outcry about Wright, who in so many ways, was just speaking the truth for many Black Americans.

thanks alot athena for your links to the speeches by the pastor wright-

im going to link them to the new post 'the pastor as prohpet' and of course, i'll credit you

henry- hey henry! thanks also for the link to james cone-

anonymous- apparently you didn't read fee's post or you would have realized it was an article from the huffington post-

We're back to this topic again? Sigh...

Continue flagellating the expired equine.

Frankie-

Your dad lived in Switzerland for most of his life and never was a mentor or father figure to an US presidential candidate.

Maybe you should title your next book "Just Crazy".

When Senator Obama's preacher thundered about racism and injustice Obama suffered smear-by-association. But when my late father -- Religious Right leader Francis Schaeffer -- denounced America and even called for the violent overthrow of the US government, he was invited to lunch with presidents Ford, Reagan and Bush, Sr.

Every Sunday thousands of right wing white preachers (following in my father's footsteps) rail against America's sins from tens of thousands of pulpits. They tell us that America is complicit in the "murder of the unborn," has become "Sodom" by coddling gays, and that our public schools are sinful places full of evolutionists and sex educators hell-bent on corrupting children. They say, as my dad often did, that we are, "under the judgment of God." They call America evil and warn of immanent destruction. By comparison Obama's minister's shouted "controversial" comments were mild. All he said was that God should damn America for our racism and violence and that no one had ever used the N-word about Hillary Clinton.

Dad and I were amongst the founders of the Religious right. In the 1970s and 1980s, while Dad and I crisscrossed America denouncing our nation's sins instead of getting in trouble we became darlings of the Republican Party. (This was while I was my father's sidekick before I dropped out of the evangelical movement altogether.) We were rewarded for our "stand" by people such as Congressman Jack Kemp, the Fords, Reagan and the Bush family. The top Republican leadership depended on preachers and agitators like us to energize their rank and file. No one called us un-American.

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Buzz up!on Yahoo!Consider a few passages from my father's immensely influential America-bashing book A Christian Manifesto. It sailed under the radar of the major media who, back when it was published in 1980, were not paying particular attention to best-selling religious books. Nevertheless it sold more than a million copies.

Here's Dad writing in his chapter on civil disobedience:

If there is a legitimate reason for the use of force [against the US government]... then at a certain point force is justifiable.

And this:

In the United States the materialistic, humanistic world view is being taught exclusively in most state schools... There is an obvious parallel between this and the situation in Russia [the USSR]. And we really must not be blind to the fact that indeed in the public schools in the United States all religious influence is as forcibly forbidden as in the Soviet Union....

Then this:

There does come a time when force, even physical force, is appropriate... A true Christian in Hitler's Germany and in the occupied countries should have defied the false and counterfeit state. This brings us to a current issue that is crucial for the future of the church in the United States, the issue of abortion... It is time we consciously realize that when any office commands what is contrary to God's law it abrogates it's authority. And our loyalty to the God who gave this law then requires that we make the appropriate response in that situation...

Was any conservative political leader associated with Dad running for cover? Far from it. Dad was a frequent guest of the Kemps, had lunch with the Fords, stayed in the White House as their guest, he met with Reagan, helped Dr. C. Everett Koop become Surgeon General. (I went on the 700 Club several times to generate support for Koop).

Dad became a hero to the evangelical community and a leading political instigator. When Dad died in 1984 everyone from Reagan to Kemp to Billy Graham lamented his passing publicly as the loss of a great American. Not one Republican leader was ever asked to denounce my dad or distanced himself from Dad's statements.

Take Dad's words and put them in the mouth of Obama's preacher (or in the mouth of any black American preacher) and people would be accusing that preacher of treason. Yet when we of the white Religious Right denounced America white conservative Americans and top political leaders, called our words "godly" and "prophetic" and a "call to repentance."

We Republican agitators of the mid 1970s to the late 1980s were genuinely anti-American in the same spirit that later Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson (both followers of my father) were anti-American when they said God had removed his blessing from America on 9/11, because America accepted gays. Falwell and Robertson recanted but we never did.

My dad's books denouncing America and comparing the USA to Hitler are still best sellers in the "respectable" evangelical community and he's still hailed as a prophet by many Republican leaders. When Mike Huckabee was recently asked by Katie Couric to name one book he'd take with him to a desert island, besides the Bible, he named Dad's Whatever Happened to the Human Race? a book where Dad also compared America to Hitler's Germany.

The hypocrisy of the right denouncing Obama, because of his minister's words, is staggering. They are the same people who argue for the right to "bear arms" as "insurance" to limit government power. They are the same people that (in the early 1980s roared and cheered when I called down damnation on America as "fallen away from God" at their national meetings where I was keynote speaker, including the annual meeting of the ultraconservative Southern Baptist convention, and the religious broadcasters that I addressed.

Today we have a marriage of convenience between the right wing fundamentalists who hate Obama, and the "progressive" Clintons who are playing the race card through their own smear machine. As Jane Smiley writes in the Huffington Post "[The Clinton's] are, indeed, now part of the 'vast right wing conspiracy.' (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jane-smiley/im-already-against-the-n_b_90628.html )

Both the far right Republicans and the stop-at-nothing Clintons are using the "scandal" of Obama's preacher to undermine the first black American candidate with a serious shot at the presidency. Funny thing is, the racist Clinton/Far Right smear machine proves that Obama's minister had a valid point. There is plenty to yell about these days.

Frank Schaeffer is a writer and author of "CRAZY FOR GOD-How I Grew Up As One Of The Elect, Helped Found The Religious Right, And Lived To Take All (Or Almost All) Of It Back

James Cone DOES INDEED Preach Hate

IN the video clip cited below, James Cone, founder of Black Liberation Theology,
says that all true Christians should
HATE INJUSTICE.
Imagine.

He also makes the outlandish statement that people in power tend to be more concerned with preserving their power than in Eliminating Injustice.
Imagine.

I didn't hear him say black people should hate black people.

the clip is

BLACK THEOLOGY of LIBERATION

A Conversation with James Cone:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1X5sZ6Q4Fw

Indeed, there are none so blind as those who will not see. One cannot stop the cycle of hate if one makes excuses for hate. One must step outside that vicious circle and say first to ones friends and family "Enough is Enough" If you make excuses for hatred you empower not just the haters you are willing to tolerate but all haters every where. The excuse you allow for one will be the excuse another provides you.

GaryD,

Sproul wrote what books?

What bible school did he get his PhD's from? In what subject?

Maybe the On Faith blog owners should sponsor a debate? And Sproul apparently has never been a guest on On Faith. Why is that?

And consider the superstitions throughout the ages. Until about 200 years ago, people still believed in charms, rabbit "foots", rosaries, holy water, broken mirrors, devils, demons, pretty wingie thingies, wine to blood, bread to bodies, ghosts, goblins, and vampires. Then we became educated and started to remove these superstitions from life to include religion. The cleasing continues.

BEAUTIFUL BCANDALOUS NIGHT

Go on up to the mountain of mercy
To the crimson perpetual tide
Kneel down on the shore
Be thirsty no more
Go under and be purified

Follow Christ to the holy mountain
Sinner sorry and wrecked by the fall
Cleanse your heart and your soul
In the fountain that flowed
For you and for me and for all

At the wonderful, tragic, mysterious tree
On that beautiful scandalous night you and me
Were atoned by His blood and forever washed white
On that beautiful, scandalous night

On the hillside, you were delivered
At the foot of the cross justified
And Your spirit restored
By the river that poured
From our blessed Savior's side

Go on up to the mountain of mercy
To the crimson perpetual tide
Kneel down on the shore
Be thirsty no more
Go under and be purified

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qahF83maIo

All have sinned and are falling short of the honour and glory which God bestows and receives.
All are justified and made upright and in right standing with God, freely by His grace (His unmerited favor and mercy), through the redemption which is provided in Christ Jesus, Whom God put forward (before the eyes of all) as a mercy seat and propitiation by His blood (the cleansing and life-giving sacrifice of atonement and reconciliation, to be received) through faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in His divine forbearance He had passed over and ignored former sins without punishment.

I teach American Politics at a community college. Our student body is quite diverse. I have been searching for a way to get a discussion going on indiviual's perceptions and concerns about other ethinic groups, things of real substance that we have been hiding with a shallow politeness. Of the many wonderful things Senator Obama did in that historic speech, one so important, he made it possible for us to have the discussion we have been needing to have for so long. Resentments fester into gaping wounds. We need to get the resentments out on the table and talk.

While I can get angry with many of his nit-picking critics, I also feel sad for them. They don't have the ability to recognize something that is far more than the usual. It is so much their loss.

In my 65 years, the speech by Senator Obama and a person like Senator Obama, I really don't think I have heard or seen before.

A Time To Forgive,

You are missing the point. Blacks live in a society that has condoned the degradation of their forbearers. Rev. Wright's was born into this country as a second-class citizen. If he was born in the south (I don't know if he was) he was born into apartied. His parents were probably born into poverty. His grandparents were probably born into grinding poverty. His great grandparents were probably slaves.

If you listen to the whole videos that Athena posted you will see that although Rev. Wright gives voice to the pain, anger and suspicion that exists in the black community, he also counsels against letting it corrode his congregation's dignity. "Hate begets hate," he says. He illuminates "the insanity of the cycle of violence and the cycle of hatred."

Rev. Wright connects the injustice visited on America on 9/11 to the injustices committed by America. I for one don't believe in karma or divine justice, but there's no doubt in my mind that American foreign policy has treated many in the Middle East as pawns, from protecting Saudi and Egyptian dictatorships to our dishonest brokerage of the Arab-Israeli conflict.

America is a far cry from its promise and its ideals. That's the message of Rev. Wright. Funny enough, it's also the message that Mr. Obama sent. He just cleaned it up for us white folk.

Trust in God is protection :
oh grow up, will ya?

Both Mr Obama and Hillary Clinton had sought the backing of Mr Richardson, the only Hispanic US governor.

"You are a once-in-a-lifetime leader," Mr Richardson told Mr Obama at the rally. "Above all, you will be a president who brings this nation together."

He also said that Mr Obama's speech on race was the beginning of a new dialogue.

"He understands that clearly by only bringing people together and by bridging our differences can we succeed together as Americans," Mr Richardson said.

"His words are one of a courageous thoughtful leader who understands that a house divided against itself cannot stand. And, after eight years of George W Bush, we desperately need that kind of leader."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/

After 20 years of sitting in the pews listening to Jeremiah Wright, calling him your spiritual advisor and mentor, writing a books based on his sermons, allowing him to marry you, and baptize your children, he becomes more than a pastor you hardly know.

What did Obama and his family listen to in those pews for 20 years. Jeremiah Wright spewing the hatred of his own mentor, James Cone.

James Cone's Black Liberation theology

The theologian explains:

Christ is black therefore not because of some cultural or psychological need of black people, but because and only because Christ really enters into our world where the poor were despised and the
black are, disclosing that he is with them enduring humiliation and pain and transforming oppressed slaves into liberating servants.

Rather than viewing God as a sovereign being who does as he wills according to his purposes, Cone insists God must do what we want him to do, or we must reject him.

What the black community wants, Cone says, is for God to assist in its goal of destroying "the white enemy."

Black theology refuses to accept a God who is not identified totally with the goals of the black community. If God is not for us and against white people, then he is a murderer, and we had better kill him.
The task of black theology is to kill gods who do not belong to the black community

... Black theology will accept only the love of God which participates in the destruction of the white enemy. What we need is the divine love as expressed in Black Power, which is the power of black people
to destroy their oppressors here and now by any means at their disposal. Unless God is participating in this holy activity, we must reject his love.

"If Rev. Wright is incorrect on some facts it's along lines that are widespread in the black community and are based on real past injustices (like the Tuskeegee syphallis experiments)."

************************
That is no reason to harbor "hatred." Especially by those that were not even the ones effected by it.

The men in the Tuskegee syphilis experiment received an apology and financial compensation from the Government for their pain and suffering. So why do blacks in 2008 think that they have a right to carry a “grudge?”

The USA’s justice system recognized their injustice and compensated them for it, so how much compensation is enough?

Athena,

Thank you. The more I see, the more I know that there's no there there. If Rev. Wright is inflammatory it's to inflame the passion for righteousness. If Rev. Wright is incorrect on some facts it's along lines that are widespread in the black community and are based on real past injustices (like the Tuskeegee syphallis experiments).

There is obviously much to recommend Rev. Wright and I can see how he must have been a profoundly positive influence on Mr. Obama.

That's also the biggest chunk in his armor, against divisive rethorics.

Obama's biggest asset is that he is half-black.

And the full version of the "God D*mn America" speech:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvMbeVQj6Lw

Judge for yourself.

Here's the full sermon from 9/16/01. Please watch the whole thing, rather than just the 10-second sound bite.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOdlnzkeoyQ

Victoria

I am very impressed that you know how the date of Easter is determined.

Concerned Why would you believe those gentlemen would hold their own now when they previously have not done so? Sproul has at least 2 doctorates one in philosophy and extensive knowledge of the relevant time periods. Why do you assume off the top of your head that everyone who holds with the classical interpretation of scripture hasn't even considered anything beyond what scripture itself has to say?

Could it possibly be that your own narrow minded prejudices are showing?

"Based on the interchanges on this site, I would say that the problem is that the born-again often conduct themselves like Johnny One-Note. Having become aware of the truth of Jesus Christ, they talk about nothing else and refuse to accept polite disagreement...........So I'd say it's not a Christian thing at all...."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It couldn't be that maybe it is not the Christian's who has a problem could it?

Herein lies the problem, one you and others group all Christians together and condemn us for voicing our beliefs and two after you judge us you demean us by saying we are not "Christian."

Thanks but no thanks, why you or anyone would think that Christians want to keep wasting their time on spreading the good news on “deaf ears” is beyond me. There are too many others that have a heartfelt desire to hear the truth of the gospels.

GaryD and Victoria,

Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, all On Faith panelists, would hold their own against anyone. Why? Because they have done the research unlike your "experts" who have not gone beyond the 200 pages of the NT or the "hallucinated based" koran.

Once again, Happy Bunny Day since Easter is simply more Christian fiction.

To wit again:

Some facts:

From an analyses of the documents by many contemporary NT exegetes:

The Resurrection is "wishful thinking" myth: i.e. it was added to make Jesus akin to the Caesars and Greek half gods/half men.

(1a) Mark 8:31-33 = Matt 16:2l-23 = Luke 9:22, (1b) Mark 9:9b = Matt 17:9b, (1c) Mark 9:12b = Matt 17:12b, (1d) Mark 9:30-32= Matt 17:22-23 = Luke 9:43b-45, (1e) Luke 17:25, (1f) Mark 10:32-34 = Matt 20:17-19 = Luke 18:31-34, (1g) Matt 26:1-2, (1h) Mark 14:21 = Matt 26:24 = Luke 22:22, (1i) Mark 14:41= Matt 26:45b,(1j) Luke 24:7

(many references but only a single attestation and from the Second stratum (60-80 AD).

http://wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php/017_Resurrection_of_Jesus

From the course notes of a large Catholic university's graduate theology class:

"Heaven is a Spirit state (no physical bodies present).

Christ's and Mary's bodies are therefore not in Heaven. For one thing, Paul in 1 Cor 15 speaks of the body of the dead as transformed into a "spiritual body." No one knows exactly what he meant by this term.

Most believe that it to mean that the personal spiritual self that survives death is in continuity with the self we were while living on earth as an embodied person.

The physical Resurrection (meaning a resuscitated corpse returning to life), Ascension (of Jesus' crucified corpse), and Assumption (Mary's
corpse) into heaven did not take place.

The Ascension symbolizes the end of Jesus' earthly ministry and the beginning of the Church.

Only Luke's Gospel records it. The Assumption ties Jesus' mission to Pentecost and missionary activity of Jesus' followers The Assumption has
multiple layers of symbolism, some are related to Mary's special role as "Christ bearer" (theotokos). It does not seem fitting that Mary, the body of Jesus' Virgin-Mother (another biblically based symbol found in Luke 1) would
be derived by worms upon her death. Mary's assumption also shows God's positive regard, not only for Christ's male body, but also for female
bodies."

Amazing how this agrees with Professor Crossan and many other contemporary NT exegetes' conclusions based on attestations and stratums.

Some added tidbits:

According to Reimarus as referenced in R.B. Stewart in his introduction to the recent book, The Resurrection of Jesus, Crossan and Wright in Dialogue,

"Reimarus (1774-1779) posits that Jesus became sidetracked by embracing a political position, sought to force God's hand and that he died alone deserted by his disciples. What began as a call for repentance ended up as a misguided attempt to usher in the earthly political kingdom of God. After Jesus' failure and death, his disciples stole his body and declared his resurrection in order to maintain their financial security and ensure themselves some standing."

From: K.C. Hanson and D. E. Oakman, Palestine in the Time of Jesus, Fortress Press, 1998. p.55

"Stories circulated to the effect that Alexander of Macedonia was not only the son of Philip II, but also of the god Zeus-Ammon (Plutarch, Parallel Lives, "Alexander" 2.1-3.2); Plato was the son of Ariston and the god Apollo (Diogenes Laertius, Lives of Eminent Philosophers 3.1-2), and Augustus was the son of Octavius as well as the god Apollo (Suetonius, Lives o f the Caesars 2.4.1-7). The extraordinary character of these elites reputedly stemmed from both their divine origins and their kingroups. Their kin-groups provided one form of legitimation-political right to the throne and/or social status (thus the importance of Joseph in Matthew's genealogy). Their divine procreation provided another: their honor was divinely ascribed, and their greatness as leaders derived from divine paternity."

Gary D & Angela,
I didn't catch the context of your comment about Christians becoming unpopular with their families. Based on the interchanges on this site, I would say that the problem is that the born-again often conduct themselves like Johnny One-Note. Having become aware of the truth of Jesus Christ, they talk about nothing else and refuse to accept polite disagreement.
Neither of you do this, by the way; even if you do generally see Jesus Christ and the Bible as answers to any question, you both seem to address the actual comments people make.

Of course, on this site there are plenty of non-Christians who post repetitively. They are at least as unpopular as any Christian. It is easy and mostly excusable to talk without listening here online, but it gets old fast in personal interaction.
So I'd say it's not a Christian thing at all....

TO ALL OF OUR CHRISTIAN FRIENDS ON THIS BLOG

PLEASE ACCEPT MY HEARTFELT WISH FOR A JOYOUS
EASTER

:)

Concerned you want me to list every Catholic theolgians views on bodily reesurrection for the last fifty years. Or literally thousands of people outside the thirtty or forty if that allied with the Jesus seminarians?

I'll five you one group just of the top of my head, Ligonier Ministries. Sproul would Have Crossan turned every which way but lose in under 5 minutes.

GaryD,

Typical of you i.e. statements with no references to support said statements.

Happy Bunny Day!!!!

Kyle wrote, "Careful what you wish for :)." March 20, 2008 6:50 PM

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I accept nothing of my own accord; my desires and wishes are in the hands of God whom I trust explicitly. He holds the keys to my wishes, desires, and wants, and as it is written in the following scripture I will not fear because the things that I wish for that are not "good" he will withhold from me.

Psalm 84:11, {11} For the LORD God is a sun and shield: the LORD will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly.

So if it is not good, God will keep me from it.

If Obama were really interested in leading this country to change, to justice, he would have left that church last year, and denounced, denounced
Rev. Wright's racist views, and the racist views of any other associate. He has shown himself to be nothing more than a garden variety ambitious politician. America deserves, and needs a President who we can trust to speak for all of us.

Concerned give it up The Jesus seminarians represent about 1 percent of modern Christian exegetes and the ever modernizing Catholic church isn't much better. And is in fact all over the place on this subject.

"Lo, a shadow of horror is risen
In eternity unknown, unprolific,
Self-closed all-repeling -
What deamon has formed this abominable void,
This soul shattering vacuum?
Some said "it is Reason".
But unknown, abstracted, brooding, secret,
The dark power hid."

(obligatory quotation :)

AtomicWarBaby:
Thou shall not invoke Asimov's name in vain :).
How about "Nightfall"?
http://doctord.dyndns.org:8000/Stories/Nightfall.htm
How is that not a religious story?
It's about a mass epiphany, about the boundary of the blue sky disappearing and nothing separating you from the other end of the universe, vast wuthering cosmic winds of void, sweeping the grounds you walk upon.
Careful what you wish for :).

Angela, GaryD and "He Has Risen" (no he has not),

Happy Bunny Day to you since Easter did not happen!!

Some facts:

From an analyses of the documents by many contemporary NT exegetes:

The Resurrection is fiction i.e. it was added to make Jesus akin to the Caesars and Greek half gods/half men (1a) Mark 8:31-33 = Matt 16:2l-23 = Luke 9:22, (1b) Mark 9:9b = Matt 17:9b, (1c) Mark 9:12b = Matt 17:12b, (1d) Mark 9:30-32= Matt 17:22-23 = Luke 9:43b-45, (1e) Luke 17:25, (1f) Mark 10:32-34 = Matt 20:17-19 = Luke 18:31-34, (1g) Matt 26:1-2, (1h) Mark 14:21 = Matt 26:24 = Luke 22:22, (1i) Mark 14:41= Matt 26:45b,(1j) Luke 24:7 (many references but only a single attestation and from the Second stratum (60-80 AD).

http://wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php/017_Resurrection_of_Jesus

From the course notes of a large Catholic university's graduate theology class:

"Heaven is a Spirit state (no physical bodies present).

Christ's and Mary's bodies are therefore not in Heaven. For one thing, Paul in 1 Cor 15 speaks of the body of the dead as transformed into a "spiritual body." No one knows exactly what he meant by this term.

Most believe that it to mean that the personal spiritual self that survives death is in continuity with the self we were while living on earth as an embodied person.

The physical Resurrection (meaning a resuscitated corpse returning to life), Ascension (of Jesus' crucified corpse), and Assumption (Mary's
corpse) into heaven did not take place.

The Ascension symbolizes the end of Jesus' earthly ministry and the beginning of the Church.

Only Luke's Gospel records it. The Assumption ties Jesus' mission to Pentecost and missionary activity of Jesus' followers The Assumption has
multiple layers of symbolism, some are related to Mary's special role as "Christ bearer" (theotokos). It does not seem fitting that Mary, the body of Jesus' Virgin-Mother (another biblically based symbol found in Luke 1) would
be derived by worms upon her death. Mary's assumption also shows God's positive regard, not only for Christ's male body, but also for female
bodies."

Amazing how this agrees with Professor Crossan and many other contemporary NT exegetes' conclusions based on attestations and stratums.

Some added tidbits:

According to Reimarus as referenced in R.B. Stewart in his introduction to the recent book, The Resurrection of Jesus, Crossan and Wright in Dialogue,

"Reimarus (1774-1779) posits that Jesus became sidetracked by embracing a political position, sought to force God's hand and that he died alone deserted by his disciples. What began as a call for repentance ended up as a misguided attempt to usher in the earthly political kingdom of God. After Jesus' failure and death, his disciples stole his body and declared his resurrection in order to maintain their financial security and ensure themselves some standing."

From: K.C. Hanson and D. E. Oakman, Palestine in the Time of Jesus, Fortress Press, 1998. p.55

"Stories circulated to the effect that Alexander of Macedonia was not only the son of Philip II, but also of the god Zeus-Ammon (Plutarch, Parallel Lives, "Alexander" 2.1-3.2); Plato was the son of Ariston and the god Apollo (Diogenes Laertius, Lives of Eminent Philosophers 3.1-2), and Augustus was the son of Octavius as well as the god Apollo (Suetonius, Lives o f the Caesars 2.4.1-7). The extraordinary character of these elites reputedly stemmed from both their divine origins and their kingroups. Their kin-groups provided one form of legitimation-political right to the throne and/or social status (thus the importance of Joseph in Matthew's genealogy). Their divine procreation provided another: their honor was divinely ascribed, and their greatness as leaders derived from divine paternity."

VERNAL EQUINOX

Equinox:

From Medieval Latin aequinoxium, from Latin aequinoctium : aequi-, equi- + nox, noct-, night, via french équinoxe.

Translated literally, equinox means “equal night”.

March 20 (March 21 in some years) is not only an indicator of the changing seasons, is significant for astronomical reasons. When the Sun crossed directly over the Earth's equator. This moment is known as the vernal equinox in the Northern Hemisphere. For the Southern Hemisphere, this is the moment of the autumnal equinox.

Day and night are about equal in length all over the world during the equinoxes, because the sun is positioned above the equator.

Generations have recognized the vernal equinox for thousands of years. There are different rituals and traditions surrounding the coming of spring.

For many, the basic reason was that their food supplies would soon be restored.

In Christianity the date is significant because Easter always falls on the first Sunday after the first full moon after the vernal equinox.

The Egyptians also built the Great Sphinx so that it points directly toward the rising Sun on the day of the vernal equinox.

The vernal equinox, is also known as "the first point of Aries," is the point at which the sun appears to cross the celestial equator from south to north.

The Vernal Equinox is a time of renewal, both in Nature and in Man.

It is believed by many ancient cultures, that the coming of "spring" removes any negative energy accumulated over the dark winter months and prepares the home for the positive growing energy of spring and summer.

At this time, the amount of dark and light is balanced, twelve hours of each, day and night.

It is a moment of equilibrium in the year.

The Vernal Equinox used to be considered the beginning of the Pagan New Year. It was a time of joy called forth by the resurrection of the "Light of the World" (sun god) from the underworld of the winter, from where he arose to join his goddess Easter (Easter is named after the ancient German goddess of spring - Easter).

All This finds its primitive origins in earlier European and Middle Eastern cultures, all of which had major festivals, usually to do with resurrection and/or release from bondage, based around the vernal equinox.

But for thousands of years before the Christian era, the Vernal Equinox signaled the beginning of the season of rebirth, the resurrection of nature and of many an ancient pagan god.

Babylonians and Assyrians placed greater importance on the Equinoxes than the solstices. The most important festival in Babylonia was the New Year, which occurred at the Spring equinox.

"The most significant ancient religious structure for the Jewish people (and later Christians as well), was Solomon's temple at Jerusalem, oriented to the Equinox sunrise. Each Spring Equinox, at the time of the ancient agricultural festival of sowing, sunlight was allowed to enter the length of an open passage from the doorway of the temple over the high altar and into the Holy of Holies. It is noted that, "There is evidence ... that the entrance of the sunlight on the morning of the Spring Equinox formed part of the ceremonial. The priest being in the Holy Place, the worshippers outside, with their backs to the sun, could see the high priest by the sunlight reflected from the jewels of his garment".

I am a oastor who preaches weekly.
It's absurd to hold anyone in my congregation accountable for what I say in the pulpit. I alone am responsible.

Can anyone believe anything that Obama says? I am starting to wonder. Does he really say what is convenient and what he thinks he should say to a given audience? I really have lost ALL respect for the senator if the following is really true. I will verify it for myself. But if it is true ... have I been wrong about the young senator from Illinois!

****************************************
http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/03/20/ferraro-offended-by-comparison-to-pastor-wright/

Obama also discussed the racial views of his white grandmother Tuesday, a topic he revisited Thursday in an interview with 610 WIP, Philadelphia Sports Radio. In the interview, Obama denied his grandmother held racial prejudices and described her as a “typical white person.”

“The point I was making was not that my grandmother harbors any racial animosity — she doesn’t,” he said. “But she is a typical white person who, you know, if she sees somebody on the street that she doesn’t know there is a reaction. That has been bred into our experiences that don’t go away and that sometimes come out in the wrong way.”

But Obama described his grandmother Tuesday as a woman who was at times fearful of black men.

“I can no more disown (Wright) than I can disown my white grandmother, a woman who helped raise me, a woman who sacrificed again and again for me, a woman who loves me as much as she loves anything in this world, but a woman who once confessed her fear of black men who passed her by on the street, and who on more than one occasion has uttered racial or ethnic stereotypes that made me cringe,” he said.

Freestinker sez:

"Life of Brian party ... my house, Easter Sunday!

.... Always look on the bright side of life!"

I'll be there in spirit...me and the Holy Sphincter!

To: GRATEFUL ATTITUDE

Always know that you're never alone; if you have surrendered your life to Christ, he's always there especially in times or sorrow. Matthew 5:30-10; 3"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 4Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted. 5Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth. 6Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled. 7Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy. 8Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God. 9Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God. 10Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Isaiah 61:1-3; 1 The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has anointed me to pre