Readers’ Responses to Our Question (134)

CCNL,

Now the World is fully aware of USA

1- Pentagon military organizagtion Chaos Theory all over the world to support its Weapon Industry.
2- And USA civilian government Conspiracy theory to support its advances to controll world resources.

Your and your Govt. credibility SUCKS.
Liars and conspirers!!!

Your pentagon driven Media conspires and All US dumb head do is just follow the media saloguns.
For example:

YOU and your stupid Bushy Bush call Iran Exe of Evil.
If some body with the slightest sense analysis. Iran has never shown aggression with ANY BODY in last 250 years. It was puppet Saddam of Iraq who attacked Iran on his USA bushy master administration behalf.
Iran hardly has any air force or navy.
But USA mad administrative dogs talk about what if Iran will acquire nuck. They haven't yet.
This reason is so STUPID. The question is....
What about Pakistan already nuclear with ability to deliver.
What about korea, what about Russia.
What about Mad Israel. Which is REAL TREAT WITH NUCKS to the muslim world.

IT IS AGAIN PENTAGON + WHITE HOUSE driven Chaos and Conpiracy theory driven by Zionest controlled Media and stupid US masses again ONLY REPEATING media words like axe of evil, shia sunni, Iran Arabs bla bla bla without putting any burdon of strain on there brains to once try to think REALISTICLY, same why like they believed in there Tyrant Rulers when there Rulers bluntly lied about EVERY THING to attack Iraq and Afghanistan.

Maria, Maria, Maria,

Not a "rednecked" Christian? Pagan then practicing Voodoo with a tinge of Hoodoo? Or Jewish still believing in the A&E myth?

Whatever, here is a synopsis that should cover the flaws in your current belief system:

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was probably a mythical character. If he was real, he was at best a combination of at least three men. 1.5 million Conservative Jews and their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT. http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

2. Jesus, the illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter possibly suffering from hallucinations, has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics. http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html
3. Mohammed, an illiterate, womanizing, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the assassination of Bhutto, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.

And who funds these acts of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

4. Luther, Calvin, Joe Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingy talking flying fictional thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

5. Hinduism (from an online Hindu site) - "Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centered and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’."
The caste/laborer system and cow worship are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism."

6. Buddhism- "Buddhism began in India about 500 years before the birth of Christ. The people living at that time had become disillusioned with certain beliefs of Hinduism including the caste system, which had grown extremely complex. The number of outcasts (those who did not belong to any particular caste) was continuing to grow."
"However, in Buddhism, like so many other religions, fanciful stories arose concerning events in the life of the founder, Siddhartha Gautama (fifth century B.C.):"
Archaeological discoveries have proved, beyond a doubt, his historical character, but apart from the legends we know very little about the circumstances of his life.

Bottom line: There are many good ways of living but be aware of the hallucinations, embellishments, lies and myths surrounding the founders and foundations of said rules of life.

"I figure you must be Christian, right?"

nope. but it's obvious YOUR anger and hatred is focused on one belief system. what motivates you to spent so much precious time and energy hating christ and all things christians? AND if you must hate- why not hate ALL belief systems? the words you type reveal the contents of your heart.

and what i say is true- atheists who are drawn to this board will consider what is posted here as they prepare for death.

consider this both now and then-

"CHARITY SAVES FROM DEATH"

Moody, Moody, Moody,

Not only are you "spelling challenged" you are also "history challenged".

e.g.

Hmmm, Sunnis and Shiites living together peacefully?

From: cnn

"Al-Sistani was apparently referring to Abdullah bin Jabrain, a key member of Saudi Arabia's clerical establishment, who last month joined a chorus of other senior figures from the hardline Wahhabi school of Sunni Islam that regards Shiites as infidels.

Bin Jabrain described Shiites as "the most vicious enemy of Muslims."

And who did the Islamic Palestinians steal the land from? Jews. Who did the Jews steal it from? the Hittites, Canannites and Philistines? The DNA from descendents of these "tribes" can be used to determine there exact origin. Moody just think you should determine the tribes of your ancestor. You are probably part Jewish. https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/22/world/middleeast/22jihadists.html?ex=1311220800&en=477ff07cfa579449&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

An excerpt:

"The conflict in Lebanon has ignited a robust debate on jihadist Web sites over backing for Hezbollah, the Shiite group that set off the crisis when it seized two Israeli soldiers on July 12. The discussions reflect the widening divide between Shiite and Sunni Arabs in parts of the Middle East. Accusing Palestinians of being anti-Shiite, one Iraqi Shiite militant bitterly wrote, “It is better to concentrate one’s efforts on helping the Shiite kinfolk rather than the Sunnis.”

And I do believe Saudi Arabia and Bahrain were part of the Coalition that booted Sadaam from Kuwait.

And Moody no comment about the following conclusions as noted by one Joseph Smith about the history of Islam (note: your friend Victoria somehow considers Joseph Smith a valid reference):

biblestudymanuals.net/quran9tc.htm ( a study the koranic Victoria has been copying and pasting from for some strange reason. )

"In conclusion, while we can concede that the Qur'an is a fascinating book to study, it simply cannot maintain its status as the final Word of God it claims to be. The declaration of textual perfection by the Muslims simply do not stand up to any critical analysis of their content. As we have seen, the Qur'an carries numerous inconsistencies with the former scriptures, while its narratives and stories help to discredit its claim to be the true Word of God. Popular sentiment and unquestioning fanatical devotion by Muslims are simply not adequate as a proof for the Qur'an's authenticity. When we take a sober analysis of the sources of the Qur'an, we find conclusive evidence that the confidence of the Muslims for their scripture is simply unfounded.

It stands to reason that those whose responsibility it was to compile a "holy book" which could compete with the existing scriptures, would naturally turn to the myths and legends of the surrounding civilizations and borrow many of their stories. Due to the predominance of oral tradition in the 7th-9th centuries one can understand how many of the stories became embellished and distorted over time. It is these corrupted stories that we find all through the Qur'an, many of which were adapted from 2nd century Talmudic literature, which was popular amongst the Jews of that area. Consequently it is the glaring similarities which we find between the Qur'an and these errant sources which nullifies the claim that the Qur'an could hope to be the true Word of God. "

And I do believe that the UN and Nato activities in Bosnia, Kosovo and Kuwait were approved by a majority of the Muslim countries.

Hi Maria. When you say, "G_d is graciously giving [atheists] something to remember and think about as they lay waiting for death at the end of life" I figure you must be Christian, right?

Because I can feel that special Christian love shining through. That transcendent feeling knowing that Jesus, the benevolent son of God, who came to earth to die for all our sins, awaits us at death's door, eager for one last chance to frighten us before condemning us to eternal damnation for the unforgivable sin of not believing in him.

Sunni and Shia are living peacefully side by side ALL OVER THE WORLD.
Even in more than 8 year Iran and Iraq war raged by USA Bushy Administration Iraqi puppet, there was NO UNREST in Iraqi civil fabric. NO ONE was attacking the establishment in the Iraq; No kind of CIVIL DESTRUCION was in progress, raping, killing, bomb blasting CIVILIANS BEORE THE ANIMALS INVASION was in progress.
It is the same 300 YEARS OLD COLONIAL divide and ruthless rule technique PRACTICED BY the US animals, kill the Shia blame the Sunni, kill the Sunni blame the Shia FUEL THE FIRE AND KILL CIVILIANS INDESCRIMINATELY in the name of collateral damage.
THE WHOLE WORLD AND MUSLIMS ARE VERY WELL AWARE OF IT.

Kuwait war was again raged by USA ANIMAL Bushy Administration Iraqi puppet.

In Bosnia and Kosovo case, YOU ANIMALS kept your CRIMNAL SILENCE FOR 2-3 YEARS until YOUR butchers were done and satisfied with there Muslim slaughter. YOU ANIMALS couldn't bear the Muslim independent state on your blasphemous European Continent. Saving them after you are done and satisfied is a big B.S.!!

To the "Obfusing" One and to the Moody One and to the occational visitor from Bahrain,

And you are on what side of the 800 year-old Shiite - Sunni blood feud?

And you use a "deflawed" koran??

And you are willing to lead a Mohammed Seminarian group reviewing what the historical facts really are? i.e. angel and devil count, the flight path of Mo's chariot to heaven, the temperature inside the "Gabe Cave"? Did Mo sleep at all in his 30 day fast? Was the fast true or was it "ramadanized". Fast/sleep all day and party/eat all night?? Does the study by a Joseph Smith hold up to historical scrutiny?

http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/quran9tc.htm ( a study the koranic Victoria has been copying and pasting from for some strange reason. )

"In conclusion, while we can concede that the Qur'an is a fascinating book to study, it simply cannot maintain its status as the final Word of God it claims to be. The declaration of textual perfection by the Muslims simply do not stand up to any critical analysis of their content. As we have seen, the Qur'an carries numerous inconsistencies with the former scriptures, while its narratives and stories help to discredit its claim to be the true Word of God. Popular sentiment and unquestioning fanatical devotion by Muslims are simply not adequate as a proof for the Qur'an's authenticity. When we take a sober analysis of the sources of the Qur'an, we find conclusive evidence that the confidence of the Muslims for their scripture is simply unfounded.

It stands to reason that those whose responsibility it was to compile a "holy book" which could compete with the existing scriptures, would naturally turn to the myths and legends of the surrounding civilizations and borrow many of their stories. Due to the predominance of oral tradition in the 7th-9th centuries one can understand how many of the stories became embellished and distorted over time. It is these corrupted stories that we find all through the Qur'an, many of which were adapted from 2nd century Talmudic literature, which was popular amongst the Jews of that area. Consequently it is the glaring similarities which we find between the Qur'an and these errant sources which nullifies the claim that the Qur'an could hope to be the true Word of God. "

And have we ever seen your answer to the following:

And why do always forget who saved the Muslims in Bosnia, Kosovo and Kuwait. And tried to save the Muslims in Somalia. And who 24/7 keeps Sunni and Shiites in Iraq from committing genocide vs. the other in their 800 year blood bath feud?????

"I wonder what God was thinking when He sent so many atheists to this forum"

that's an easy question. G_d is graciously giving them something to remember and think about as they lay waiting for death at the end of life..

Jihadist,

Thank you!

By the way I'm very calm and relax person in nature mostly.

Most of my posts doesn't reflect my emotions BUT the intensity of the issues and situations I discuss.

Unfortunately it reflect upon me, but compare to the issues we talk about, I feel unjust try not to raise them as loud as they deserve!!

Ahmed from Bahrain,

Hello. Welcome back. Sorry to dissapoint you that we are the same.

On Concerned the Christian Now Liberated and my exchanges with him, not to worry. I was just probing and poking him/her/it to know what exactly he/she/it really thinks if he/she/it is not posting the pre-prepared fixed posts.

He/she/it, is undoubtedly passionate about his/her/its convictions on Crossanized Christianity/Catholic of Reality that he/she/it calls himself/herself/itself.

And equally passionate on his/her/it's aversion to the Prophet, Islam, Muslims, Pagans and Mormons and whomever else disturb him/her it to greatly and personally. And oh, a very patriotic person too.

--------------------------------------------------

Hello Moody,

Relax. The world is not coming to an end just because Concerned the Christian Now Liberated keep taunting you with, "Moody, Moody, Moody" and some others do so here in their own way.

American bloggers are different. They don't usually act the same way as bloggers in other countries do. Don't take anything personally. You don't know them personally after all.

Thanks and best regards
"J"

Thanks and regards
"J"

Moody, Moody, Moody,

Wow again you are in a mood!!!!!!

And you always forget who saved the Muslims in Bosnia, Kosovo and Kuwait. And tried to save the Muslims in Somalia. And who 24/7 keeps Sunni and Shiites in Iraq from committing genocide vs. the other in their 800 year blood bath feud.

And Yo there Oh "Obfusing" Jihadist,

Well now we know you can at least spell Iran. That is good start. Considering the extent of the terror and killing supported by this Axis of Evil, Iran's desires go way beyond problems with the USA. It is obvious from how this country is run and what its leaders preach is that their main goal is to turn the globe into an Islamic theocracy controlled by Shiites. And it is equally obvious that the Sunnis for one will not allow this to happen. And again what side of the blood feud are you on??

And I do believe that even you will admit that the conclusions of the Jesus Seminarians and others of similar education are slowly but surely "deflawing" Christianity. Their scholarship and reasoning simply trump the 2000 years of orthodox, superstition-driven mumbo-jumbo. It is no accident that you see such an outpouring of thinking by such a large number of atheists in these discussions. Most of these non-believers have escaped the clutches of this orthodox Christian mumbo jumbo. Hopefully one day we will see a huge number of Muslims making their great leap forward. Hirsi Ali and Salman Rushdie are showing the way in this regard.

Personally, I am still holding out for some type of Singularity out there along with some spirit state of permanent existence for the souls of good people. And I am convinced that followers of an "undeflawed" koran do not fit into the category of good people. Hopefully your own copy of the koran has been "deflawed". You have the Five Step Program to follow if it has not been.

I have been away from this site for over 2 months but boy, still the same people and same hate-mongering, especially that born-again Christian now resurrected, who Jihadist warned me not to lock horns with him/her/it. Now I see Jihadist doing exactly that and he/she/it has not changed his/her tune one note.

Some people never grow and he/she/it is a prime example, harking on with his usual cut and paste boring, long threads.

Don't bother replying coz, I aint reading your posts anymore. It is a waste of my precious time.

now what was the question? oh yes. 7 deadly sins. Why 7? What about nuking a whole country coz you can? and purely based on suspicion and trumped up charges. And this from a people who call themselves lovers of Christ?

Perhaps we should define what is not sin and by exclusion we are able to see what 'sin' is.

Firstly, sin is a religious term and am done with religion, any sort. But lets us use that 's'word for the sake of conformity. (Darn, it is hard to descend to such level!)- This can be classed as 'pride', a deadly sin. But I can seek forgiveness knowing that God obliges.

So, here is my definition: If the thought, word or action does not generate or re-affirm the energy of love, then that thought, word or action is a sin.

Definition of love being = life = God = collective happiness.

HIPPOCRATIC BARBARIC CAPITALIST SECULAR ZIONIST WEST:

Look what they are doing to Palestinians?
Look at the news of Palestinians trying to flee at Egypt border. The whole nation is crushed by the Zionist Occupiers in every way, food, energy, medicine for the old, child and seriously ill. There army destroying there fields and homes, killing the infants, women and children EVERY DAY.

And then there is news of SHAMLESS ZIONIST ISRAELI wOmen with two small children giving an interview that they are terrorized by the Hamas rocket fires. There car was destroyed, house windows were shackled. There Media telling every day 200 to 300 rockets are fired in Israeli border areas and there businesses are badly effected…B.S.!!!!

Why don’t the ZIONEST SHAME OF THE HUMAN FACE show on media those 200 to 300 rocket attacked places?? INSTEAD showing there shameless alone wOmen and media jugglery as a counter news???

And when the WESTERN SECULAR ZIONEST CAPITALIST SHAME OF THE HUMAN FACE condemns AND STOP SUPPORTING such BARBARIC AND CRUEL actions????

And when does HIPPOCRATIC BARBARIC CAPALISTIST SECULAR ZIONIST WEST stop acting like Hippocratic Maniacs???

Does Washington Post DARE to make a link On Faith with heading “CAPALIST SECULAR ZIONIST WEST CRIME AND VIOLENCE”????

YOUR GOVERNMENTS SHAMELESS SUPPORT SHOWS THAT THEY ARE EQUALLY RESPONSIBLE… IN EVERY BARBARIC ACTIONS GOING ON ALL OVER THE WORLD!!!!!!!!!

Oh, "Obfusing Ones",

The conclusions of the study by one Joseph Smith concerning the validity of the koran (related to the Joe Smith of "Mormom Con"????):

: http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/quran9tc.htm ( a study koranic Victoria has been copying and pasting from for some strange reason. )

"In conclusion, while we can concede that the Qur'an is a fascinating book to study, it simply cannot maintain its status as the final Word of God it claims to be. The declaration of textual perfection by the Muslims simply do not stand up to any critical analysis of their content. As we have seen, the Qur'an carries numerous inconsistencies with the former scriptures, while its narratives and stories help to discredit its claim to be the true Word of God. Popular sentiment and unquestioning fanatical devotion by Muslims are simply not adequate as a proof for the Qur'an's authenticity. When we take a sober analysis of the sources of the Qur'an, we find conclusive evidence that the confidence of the Muslims for their scripture is simply unfounded.

It stands to reason that those whose responsibility it was to compile a "holy book" which could compete with the existing scriptures, would naturally turn to the myths and legends of the surrounding civilizations and borrow many of their stories. Due to the predominance of oral tradition in the 7th-9th centuries one can understand how many of the stories became embellished and distorted over time. It is these corrupted stories that we find all through the Qur'an, many of which were adapted from 2nd century Talmudic literature, which was popular amongst the Jews of that area. Consequently it is the glaring similarities which we find between the Qur'an and these errant sources which nullifies the claim that the Qur'an could hope to be the true Word of God. "

That looks a lot like:

Mohammed was an illiterate, lusting, greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

Unfortunately this particular Joseph Smith spent too little time on identifying the flaws in the founders and foundations of Christianity and Judaism as based on his conclusions that the bible is the true inspired words of god. You can actually say the same thing about the original "Mormon-Con" Smith.

Soja: "The fact that a mainstream international newspaper like The Washington Post has put its reputation at risk to run a religious forum is proof we are living in great spiritual times! The idea is catching on and spreading!"

I wonder what God was thinking when He sent so many atheists to this forum.

"we are well aware of CCNLobotomized's targets, and it angers us. I, for one, have no use for his mindless bigotry."

well arminius. that wasn't very "spiritual". maybe you've never actually met someone who underwent a lobotomy.

i'm a longtime reader here and rarely post. i enjoy the great variety of thought and intent in the posts. even though posters are often tiresome and predictable (yes- even you and yours)- i'm so glad no one is censored and everyone has a voice.

reading here tonite reminds me of a song- here's a utube so you can sing along too : )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XE-vFyGKu0

Hi, Jihadist,

Yes, we are well aware of CCNLobotomized's targets, and it angers us. I, for one, have no use for his mindless bigotry.

You are absolutely right - spirituality is the cornerstone of our faith and belief.

Keep the posts coming!

Arminius

Hello Arminius,

I know. I do notice many mainstream Christians don't agree with him and the Jesus Seminarians.

But, as you know, CCNL's favourite "targets" are Muslims, Pagans and Mormons, not necessarily in that order, for "special CCNL treatment" of creative name-calling and labellings:)

Thanks for all your posts. I am more interested in how lay believers of any faiths see their faith and live by it. What they say about their own faiths are truer and more honest for me than what theologians say of their respective faiths. Theologians increasingly seem to only provide the "intellectual" rationales rather the spiritual aspects of faith for believers.

Nothing wrong with that, but as you do know, judging from your posts, spirituality is the cornerstone of our faith and belief.

Thanks and regards
"J"

Michael - "So much confusion and disagreement over sin and angels, called hallucinations by many. Christians should read their bible more closely, they believe they are created in God's image, yet it clearly states in Genesis "let US create man in OUR image"

It's called the Trinity. There is only one God who exists in three persons. If God is omnipresent, why is this so hard to understand?

Jihadist,

I see that Confused the 'Christian' Now Lobotomized is back in his usual blathering form.

Mainstream Christians pay no attention whatsoever to the so-called Jesus Seminarians. Or to anything that CCNL says, for that matter.

Arminius

Concerned the Christian Now Liberated:)

Hello pussycat. Quit harassing Moody. He's not an American. You do come across as the epitome of the gung-ho, shoot and shoot first fellow and ask questions later maybe.

So, you want to Muslims to edit and delete Suras of the Qur'an you don't like eh?

Let me, practice then, on your post:

"The synopsis of the flaws in the foundations of one major religion is quite a challenge considering the formalisation of the creed in a Council.

There is no need for non-Iranians and non-Americans to comment on the anger of Iranians who are driven by the anger and greed of a country who did not have its way with Iran.

This is bothched relations between the US and Iran and which only the two countries can resolve without the need to drag in the "international community" of the dangers one or the other posed to the world. Both should realise their bilateral one-upmanship is boring and wasting the world's time.

The founders of the world's great religions are proven to have smoked ganja, snort coke, go bonging and freebasing and thus Hallucinating?"

How's that:)

As you know, what the Jesus Seminarians said on God is closer to Islam and Judaism.

As you know, what the Prophet said about God is what you really think on God.

As you know, Muslims have only one holy book, the Qur'an. It is slimmer than the New Testament of the Bible.

As you know, Muslims don't have organised church as in church headquarters issuing diktats to adherents that must be complied, nor do Muslims have to contribute to "church" headquarters.

As you know, Muslims are less superstitious with no tinker bells, no fairies, no leprechauns, no tooth fairy told by parents and popular culture.

As you know, Muslims agree to the Five Pillars of Islam. Very simple. Everything else has been argued since the earliest days of Islam and is ongoing now.

Muslims really don't have to report on our deliberations and conclusions to the Jesus Seminarians do we, because of different objectives and approaches.

Bottom line:

In Islam, it is not just self-appointed or voluntary groups of Muslim scholar-thinkers and ulema looking at the faith, coming to agreed conclusions and making new interpretations on history, theology and Shariah. This is also driven by Muslim organisations. It is a more "free-floating" exercise so to speak. As always, it will be up to Muslims to personally decide if what is said and done is Islamic in their mind - from governance to business to social conducts.

Obfuscating Jihadist, "Obfusing" Jihadist,

The synopsis of the flaws in the founders and foundations of the major religions is actually quite new and enlightening considering the old, thumped to nauseous and fictional stories of the OT, NT and koran.

Hmmm and still no comments about the greed and anger driven Iranians?? Just why is that?? Fear?? You work for their PR department??

Ditto for comments about the "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia??

Ditto for your required belief in "pretty thingies" called angels by some but "tinker bells" by most??

Ditto about Islam being better known as the Religion of the Hallucinations???

And you ask, "Do mainstream Christians consider conclusions of the Jesus Seminarians agreed on by their vote of majority for agreement as blasphemous? No!!!! but with a few exceptions like Thomas Moses of the NT Baum who really is spaced out from all those meetings with Allah.

Hmm, how would you like to lead the Mohammed Seminarians in a analogous historical review of the great hallucinator????

Concerned, Concerned, Concerned,

Ahhh......that pre-prepared cut and paste post here again!

Bottom line:

Easy to skip your pre-prepared same old same old, stale posts.

At least it stops you from posting unhinged and bigoted ones.

So, how goes the Crossanization of America?

Do mainstream Christians consider conclusions the Jesus Seminarians agree on by their vote of majority for agreement as blasphemous?

Moody, Moody, Moody,

Since when are the historical facts, reason and logic, "vulgar"??

It is all about that proven educational tool, repetition, just like the repetition of all the koranic and biblical copying and pasting over the last 8000 years so get use to it, the "fact thumpers" are here to stay as we have a lot of myth busting to do.

How goes that Five Step Deprogramming of your Islamic brainwashing??

In responding to this question: I believe that all sins are prevalent in this world. And again, The wages of sin is death (spiritual death).If I had to pick one, I would say pride is the most destructive. And since we're talking about what we as christians believe: when you look at the 10 commandments which is the law of God to show us how to live and love one another as we love our self (Like the Golden Rule) and it also shows us what sin is. 1) You shall have no other gods before Me (WHEN YOUR PRIDEFUL, YOU LOOK AT YOUR SELF AS A GOD AND LIVE YOUR LIFE BELIEVING NO ONE CAN TELL YOU WHAT IS RIGHT OR WRONG; IT MAKES YOU PIGHEADED AND STUBBORN) 2) You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth (THIS COMMANDMENT DOESN'T ONLY MEAN STATUES; IT'S CREATING YOUR OWN IMAGINARY GOD TO SUIT YOURSELF/YOUR SIN) 3)You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain (MOST PEOPLE USE GOD'S NAME AS A CURSE AND EVEN CHRISTIANS USE IT SO IRREVERENTLY; LIKE SAY OH MY "G". 4)'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.' (HOW MANY PEOPLE CONSISTENTLY BREAK THIS COMMANDMENT, NOT GOING TO CHURCH,WORSHIPPING THE ONE WHO HAS GIVEN "ALL" OF US LIFE, NOT EVEN THINKING ABOUT THE CREATOR, WHO IN HIS COMMON GRACE EVEN ALLOWS THE WICKED TO BE ABLE TO SEE THE SUN SHINE, THE STARS, THE MOON, ETC). 5)Honor your father and your mother (NOW HOW MANY OF US HAVE BROKEN THIS COMMANDMENT) 6)You shall not murder (JESUS SAID IF YOU'RE ANGRY WITH YOUR BROTHER WITHOUT CAUSE, YOU HAVE MURDER IN YOUR HEART AND ALSO IF YOU HATE SOMEONE) 7)You shall not commit adultery (JESUS SAID, IF YOU LUST UPON A MAN OR WOMAN, YOU'VE COMMITTED ADULTERY IN YOUR HEART) 8)You shall not steal (HOW MANY PEOPLE HAVE TAKEN SOMETHING FROM WORK; A PEN, PENCIL, IT DOESN'T MATTER HOW MUCH THE VALUE; IF YOU'VE STOLEN ONCE, YOU'RE A THIEF) 9)You shall not bear false testimony (IT ONLY TAKES ONE LIE TO BE A LIAR) 10) you shall not covet (HOW MANY PEOPLE HAVE NOT DESIRED WHAT OTHERS HAVE). WHEN YOU LOOK AT ALL OF THESE, WHEN PRIDE IS THERE, ALL OF THESE ARE ALSO, INCLUDING GREED, LUST, SLOTHFULNESS, ETC. I speak from my own journey, the most prideful people I know or have met are the most self-serving, stubborn, greedy, unforgiving folks that I've ever met; HONESTLY, I WOULD HAVE TO SAY, THIS IS THE NORM IN SOCIETY THESE DAYS.

Faith should be considered one of the greater "sins", as it results in intellectual laziness and a false sense of moral correctness. The antidote, of course, is a healthy sense of doubt. Doubt is our best remedy for the human failing we call faith. The Post should have a chat called On Doubt, to restore some balance to its website.

So much confusion and disagreement over sin and angels, called hallucinations by many. Christians should read their bible more closely, they believe they are created in God's image, yet it clearly states in Genesis "let US create man in OUR image" This is obvious to a cabbalistic philosopher but hidden from shallow Christians.
One comment says that it's wrong not only logically but philosophically. Logic is a branch of philosophy and is sometimes called " the doctrine of fallacies".
So much confusion I can't even respond, it's no wonder we are so divided in the world.

CCNL:

Number one You never add any thing in the discussion.

Secondly All you do always kill the informative debate by diverting the attention of debators by your VULGOR cut and pastes.

I would suggest every body should ignore You once and for all!!!!

Oh "Obfusing" Jihadist,

(As noted previously but with some added time), we copy and paste synopses to counteract the bible and koran thumping during the last 8000 years where the copying and pasting scribes of "Tablet-Man, "God-Man, and "Mo-Man" have been forced "down our throats" as being the inerrant word of god aka allah.

e.g. the synopsis of the flaws in the founders and foundations of the five major contemporary religions with additions:

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was probably a mythical character as was Moses, the "Tablet-Man" who talked to burning bushes and made much magic in Egypt.

If Abraham was real, he was at best a combination of at least three men. 1.5 million Conservative Jews and their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT. http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

2. Jesus, the illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter possibly suffering from hallucinations, has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics. http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

For added "pizzazz", Catholic/Christian theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "filicider".

3. Mohammed, an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed- driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" aka "pretty thingies" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the assassination of Bhutto, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.

And who funds these acts of terror? The warmongering, greed-driven, anger-driven, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

4. Luther, Calvin, Joe Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingy talking flying fictional thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

5. Hinduism (from an online Hindu site) - "Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centered and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’."

The caste/laborer system and cow worship are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism."

6. Buddhism- "Buddhism began in India about 500 years before the birth of Christ. The people living at that time had become disillusioned with certain beliefs of Hinduism including the caste system, which had grown extremely complex. The number of outcasts (those who did not belong to any particular caste) was continuing to grow."
"However, in Buddhism, like so many other religions, fanciful stories arose concerning events in the life of the founder, Siddhartha Gautama (fifth century B.C.):"
Archaeological discoveries have proved, beyond a doubt, his historical character, but apart from the legends we know very little about the circumstances of his life. e.g. Buddha by one legend was supposedly talking when he came out of his mother's womb.

Bottom line: There are many good ways of living but be aware of the hallucinations, embellishments, lies and myths surrounding the founders and foundations of said rules of life.

Concerned the Christian Now Liberated,

Thank you for your post. Hope you are keeping together in this discussion on what we believe in - on our faith or lack of faith, on being faith-full or being un-faith-full, and why.

You : “It is surprising that the fast was not for forty days in order to keep up with the Christians and their sham myth of Jesus conversing with an "ugly thingie" after forty days of fasting in the desert.”

- Are you saying that you think Christianity is a sham religion?

- Were what the Jesus Seminarians, including JD Crossan, wrote misunderstood by us as quoted by you in your posts?

- Are what the Jesus Seminarians wrote on Jesus accepted by mainstream Christians, or are parts of them regarded as blasphemous?

- In response to someone who ask you if you believe in God, you responded that you believe in the Singularity, and is the Singularity not the term used by scientist for that thing that started the Big Bang?

- Is God a Singularity, or is God uniquely Singular?

- Would it not be better and easier to come out as a declared atheist, agnostic, deist, or anti-theist?

- Would it not be better to stick to “pre-prepared” and “pre-fixed” same old same old “posts” to be reposted again and again and again in On Faith threads regardless of topics or questions in On Faith?

"Obfuing", "Obfuing", "Obfuing" Jihadist,

As always, nothing about the greed-driven, lust-filled, warmongering, hallucinating founder of Islam in your commentary. Again, nothing about the warmongering, Shiite, anger-filled, terror and torture koranic theocracy of Iran. Again nothing about the terror, maiming and killing supported by this theocracy and also supported by the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia e.g.

The assassination of Bhutto, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.

And nothing to counter the fact that the whole of Islam is based on the sham myth of a "pretty thingie" talking to the illiterate Mo who was supposedly fasting in some hot cave in Saudi Arabia for thirty days. It is surprising that the fast was not for forty days in order to keep up with the Christians and their sham myth of Jesus conversing with an "ugly thingie" after forty days of fasting in the desert. There must have been a tranlation problem in Mo's koranic scribes to allow Jesus to have this ten day upmanship on old Mo. Their "profit" is better than your "profit", har, har.

CCNL

I have not read anything written by Crossan & Co. I do not wish to form my impression about their writing based on the stuff you post as coming from them.

Best wishes
Soja

Jihadist,

You have really grown on me. I think I like ya.

Can I give you some advice CCNL. I'll give you some advice that I think is proper in this diverse setting of OnFaith.

I tend to think that pluralism is a good thing because it gives the world a set of ideas that are all on an even playing field. I think it's totally proper and in fact necessary to engage each idea not only to see if it stands logically, but philisophically. I think the importance in doing so must be met with a complete respect for the individual (which you have not shown). I may come off in expressing my Christian worldview as being an exclusive truth, but yet I respect the individual (such as Jihadist) while engaging Islam in it's ideaology. I would advise you, if you wish to be taken seriously, to show some respect for the individual while engaging in dialogue as well. I know many do not agree with me about my faith and ideas, but I just hope that the same respect can be shown to me as I try to show to them.

It's only fair CCNL. Maybe you can give it a try?

Thanks.

And thanks Jihadist for a wonderful response. I think you have shown who has taken the higher road.

Helloooo.......

Who’s fooling who? Why?

Are Muslims capable of fooling the civilized, multiple and advanced degrees confered Crossanized Christians/Catholics of Reality who are inheritors and beneficiaries of the Enlightenment?

Which Muslim/s in particular “fooled” CCNL personally or professionally in his life or career?

Is OJ3 not shorter than “Obfuscating Jihadist, Obfuscating Jihadist, Obfuscating Jihadist?” for CCNL to use?

Is Jihadist adding "obfuing" as a word in the “Special Edition English Dictionary on Words To Be Used By Concerned the Christian Now Liberated On ‘Jihadist’ in On Faith.”?

Is the list of names-calling and labellings by CCNL on Jihadist getting longer everyday, including “terrorist” used by CCNL before several times before?

Is CCNL, who proposed that “Mecca be nuked” several times before in other threads, advocating a new method on reformation of religions, and new solutions on Islam, Muslims and world peace?

Should Jihadist turn the other cheek? Or should Jihadist whack back on CCNL’s persistent name-callings and labellings of her?

Should CCNL’s have his freedom of speech and expression here and not Jihadist too?

Is CCNL finally being wise in using the much shorter "angels" for "pretty, wingie, talking, flying, fictional thingies"?

Is the CCNL long version of angels a written description of angels as painted by Boticelli?

Did any of the Holy Texts described angels as pretty?

Is "Tinker bells" and fairies in the Holy Texts or in books by Hans Christian Andersen and other fairy tales writers?

Why is CCNL concerned on aspects of Catholic and Christian theology when Christians, including Gary D and David T, could talk about them freely and comfortably and respected and liked by Jihadist for that?

Is CCNL really being nice to a pagan here after mocking a few pagans in On Faith so many times before, and using terms such as “hoodoo-voodoo” on their beliefs?.

Is CCNL going to adopt a Five or Five Hundred or Five Thousand Deprogramming Steps (number of steps as appropriate) for his great endeavour to Crossanize America?.

Is CCNL going for a Ten Steps Programme to improve communication skills with his fellow Catholics or Christians first and then to talk to people of other faiths?

Is Jihadist flattered by CCNL’s continuing interest in her and to "free" her from only God knows what, when she has absolutely no desire to be "saved" by CCNL, to be a member of his possibly new church which can be called either “The Church of the Crossanized Christians”, or “The Church of the Catholics of Reality” as CCNL and his collective deem appropriate?.

Is Jihadist not interested in Crossanized Christianity because the posts by its prime preacher and advocate in On Faith, CCNL, is not spiritual, not sensitive, not humane, not sensitised enough for her on the human condition and on human values?

Athena, Athena, Athena,

Your commentary about "pretty thingies" has been noted previously in the synopsis of angels (almost operatic). Scrool down the page (January 21, 2008 3:14 AM) . The Wikipedia "angelic" reference is excellent. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angel

And let us not forget how dangerous "obfusing" Muslims are. They fooled us once. Never again.

Seven Deadly Sins

The question about deadly sins is difficult. Why?

Answer: because Christian society today is involved in cultivating them to make a living, in some transparent, covert, or indirect way. Moreover some sins are now treated as virtues.

Money is good. Look at all of the fancy million-dollar churches being built, replete with reflecting pools, while the local homeless shelters have cracked cement floors.

The Lord Jesus Christ would be no doubt disgusted or naturally enviable of the preachers juicy retirement pension plan.

Such Churches of splendour even prohibit bus-stops near them. This is because they would attract undesirable (i.e., car-less) parishoners.

When obvious facts concerning material greed are pointed out to the so-called "Christians" they merely jeer and retire into their gated communities, or simply plow you off the road in their big-fast cars. Some think about the matter, but only for a moment.

I suppose the biggest sin of them all is being a fake Chrisitian.

I see that CCNL is continuing his jihad against Jihadist. Really, CCNL... live and let live, already. Christmas must drive him crazy, what with all of the angel motif everywhere. I guess he's in his post-holiday depression and looking for someone to pick on.

If you must know, your "pretty wingie-talking-thingies" originate from the Neolithic bird Goddesses of Anatolia (Turkey), Greece, and Egypt. Many of the Egyptian Gods, including Isis, had wings. The symbolism is that they are beings of the spirit, and could enable the priest or shaman to "fly" or travel outside of their body. You also had people reading signs and portents by looking at flying birds.

Obfuscating Jihadist, Obfuscating Jihadist, Obfuscating Jihadist,

Now do you feel better??

I see from your last "obfuing" that you
still cannot come to grips with all those Islamic flaws, so let us return to the basics:

Angels = "pretty, wingie, talking, flying, fictional thingies" aka "tinker bells" aka fairies- Now do feel better?

i.e. Islam = The Religion of the Mythical Gabriel aka Religion of the Thingie aka Religion of the Tinkering Tinker Bell- Now do you feel better?

i.e. Islam = The Religion of the Seventh Century Hallucinations of One Long Dead Arab- Now do you feel better?

And if Jesus atoned for the sins of the sinners on your Christian sinner list (or any other list), God the Padre would be committing the sin of filicide. Hmmm, not good or rational. And your "obfuing" about other aspects of Catholic and Christian theology has been addressed many times on these threads but you apparently were not paying much attention. Suggest a reread after you correct the koranic flaws.

And don't forget those Five Deprogramming Steps for your great escpape from Islam are still free.

Jihadist,

Phd.....Permanent Head Damage....

I like that...good one. I'm sure CCNL has a few Phd's. :)

There are behaviors that a individually or socially detrimental, but there is no such thing as a "sin" - For a "sin" to exist there would have to be a "god", which is just a tale (or BS if you wish.)

Concerned the Christian Now Liberated:)

Pussycat! Don't want to address me directly but screaming for me in this thread? lol

Now, now, now, don't scream in your post using capital letters. Men like to say only women scream no? As in: "Sometimes I feel like screaming. Sometimes I'm sick of screaming."

Unbelievable, The Hyperventilating and Overeducated Concerned the Christian Now Liberated realizes he is not a spiritual person or an intellectual with heart or civility.

What is the matter pussycat? Afraid to call "pretty wingie thingies" angels in case you turn into a pillar of salt? Or into stone?

Worried and defensive about The Original Sin, the Seven Deadly Sins and especially the Atonement Theology you mentioned in another thread? Most devout Christians I know here are not on that, including Soja, Arminius, Viejita, Daniel in the Lion's Den etc. They are all very spiritual Christians.

You don't know Muslims too well do you? Most Muslims admire and respect the expression of religious devotion and spirituality of people of other faiths. A religiously devout and spiritual person will hardly do anything harmful and disrespectful to his fellow men will him?

And, nah, I don't care to much for people with academic initials. Is BS for people who BS all the time? Is MS a preface for women's names as MR is for men? Does PhD stands for permanent head damage? One can have a string of academic degree, thinks one knows everything but understand nothing and get nothing done.

What are dictionaries anyway? Which ones in English? There are some 900 versions of the Bible someone mentioned in another thread. Are there 900 versions of the English dictionary and 900 meaning for the word - faith?

Now, tell us about Christianity and the Nicene Creed. Muslims want to know about man being in the image of God, the Trinity of God, the Original Sin, Salvation through Christ, Baptism etc.

If you don't want to respond to that, perhaps to tell us what spirituality and spiritualism is. After all, even some atheists say they are spiritual. Why is spirituality so important to us?

A R R O G A N C E
MOTHER OF EVILS

You forgot Arrogance, mother of all evils.

Spirituality and Arrogance are mutually exclusive.

Spirituality and Humility are directly proportional to each other, greater humility = greater spirituality.

The greater the humility the lesser the conflict in society.

Some examples of arrogance:
My religion is the only path to salvation
My religion is the oldest
My religion is the only one that teaches the truth
My religion is the only one that focuses on spirituality
My religion has scientific knowledge
My religion is the fastest growing
My religion is the largest in the world
My religion is practical...
My religion is the only true religion

The moment the idea of better or superiority creeps in to us, we lose the connect with the spirituality. The idea of religion is to bring the balance to an individual and balance between the individual and others. The masters who have achieved perfection are the humblest of all, and the most ordinary and do not consider any one to be less than them.

The one's who achieve full spirituality, do not claim it so for it would be arrogance.

All religions are beautiful, each religion paves the way for that "personal balance" and "balance with others around".

Mike Ghouse
www.foundationforpluralism.com

Unbelievable, The Obfuscating Jihadist realizes her religion has flaws, a major one being the required belief in "pretty wingie thingies". But instead of addressing this issue, she rants on about science and Christian sins and she even notes that she does not know what B.S., M.S and PhD stand for? Give us a break!!!!! Hmmm, maybe Google and dictionaries are banned in Malaysia??

TOJ, read my text:

GABRIEL WAS A "PRETTY, WINGIE, TALKING, FLYING, FICTIONAL THINGIE AND ISLAM'S FOUNDATION IS BASED ON SAID "THINGIE".

BOTTOM LINE: ISLAM SHOULD BE CALLED "THE RELIGION OF THE THINGIE" AS IT IS A BETTER FIT WITH HISTORY.

DITTO FOR MORMONISM AND A MINOR BOTTOM LINER FOR OTHER CHRISTIAN SECTS TO INCLUDE CATHOLICISM.

Can anyone tell me I'm wrong when I say that national pride and religious pride has historically been the deadliest of all sins?

"A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual doom" - - Martin Luther King Jr.

Peace!! John

I definitely don't have an American high school diploma. What in the world is B.S., M.S. and PhD?

Nice try to impress with a string of mysterious initials. It makes no difference to this unrepentent philistine and unashamed ignoramus as:

- What has all the scientific knowledge done and can do to eliminate pride, envy, gluttony, lust, anger, greed and sloth in humans that we know of these past thousands of years?

- Will knowing where the tomb of Jesus is going to change and eliminate the Seven Deadly Sins?

- Will reading works by the Jesus Seminarians and agreeing with them going to eliminate the Seven Deadly Sins?

- Are humans to be like Hal of 2001, or Mr Spock and Data of Star Trek in cool reason and logic?

- Can pride, envy, gluttony, lust, anger, greed and sloth be scientifically measured or quantified in humans?

- Is the heart just a human organ that pumps and circulate blood?

- Is the heart also not capable of soaring, sinking, hurting, being broken, being mended and healed?

- Is the human mind going even be satisfied with facts and not to continue to look for metaphors, for allusions, for poetry in life and in the human condition?

- Can faith and spirituality be measured and fully understood by science?

Science is a slave to man, not its master.

And still we have pride, envy, gluttony, lust, anger, greed and sloth. The ancients were right. The Holy Texts are right. Those characteristics are still with us. And then some.

Ahhh, substantiation of commentary points:

Let us begin with those "pretty wingie, talking, flying, fictional thingies" that obviously the Jewish, Christian and Islamic scribes borrowed from the ancients. These "thingies" were made into the supernatural links (heaven and hell) to hominids and without which Abrahamic religions conceptually fail. (high school education required to understand- some of us have advanced degrees i.e B.S., M.S., PhD's) so it is really easy to understand how "thingies" were used to "grease" the wheels to heaven and hell.

Joe Smith had his Moroni.

Jehovah Witnesses have their Jesus /Michael the archangel, the first angelic being created by God;

Mohammed had his Gabriel (this "tinker bell" got around)and a few ugly "thingies"/Jinn.

Jesus and his family had Michael, Gabriel, and Satan, the latter being a modern day demon of the demented.

The Abraham-Moses myths had their Angel of Death and other "no-namers" to do their dirty work or other assorted duties.

Contemporary biblical and religious scholars have relegated these "pretty wingie thingies" to the myth pile. We should do the same to include deleting all references to them in our religious operating manuals. Doing this will eliminate the prophet/profit/prophecy status of these founders and put them where they belong as simple humans just like the rest of us.

Some added references to "tinker bells".

"Latter-day Saints also believe that Michael the Archangel was Adam (the first man) when he was mortal, and Gabriel lived on the earth as Noah."

Apparently hallucinations did not stop with Joe Smith.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07049c.htm
"This belief in guardian angels can be traced throughout all antiquity; pagans, like Menander and Plutarch (cf. Euseb., "Praep. Evang.", xii), and Neo-Platonists, like Plotinus, held it. It was also the belief of the Babylonians and Assyrians, as their monuments testify, for a figure of a guardian angel now in the British Museum once decorated an Assyrian palace, and might well serve for a modern representation; while Nabopolassar, father of Nebuchadnezzar the Great, says: "He (Marduk) sent a tutelary deity (cherub) of grace to go at my side; in everything that I did, he made my work to succeed."

Catholic monks and Dark Age theologians also did their share of hallucinating:

"TUBUAS-A member of the group of angels who were removed from the ranks of officially recognized celestial hierarchy in 745 by a council in Rome under Pope Zachary. He was joined by Uriel, Adimus, Sabaoth, Simiel, and Raguel."

And tinker bells go way, way back:

"In Zoroastrianism there are different angel like creatures. For example each person has a guardian angel caled Fravashi. They patronize human being and other creatures and also manifest god’s energy. Also, the Amesha Spentas have often been regarded as angels, but they don't convey messages, but are rather emanations of Ahura Mazda ("Wise Lord", God); they appear in an abstract fashion in the religious thought of Zarathustra and then later (during the Achaemenid period of Zoroastrianism, 1100 BCE) became personalized, associated with an aspect of the divine creation (fire, plants, water...)."

"The beginnings of the biblical belief in angels must be sought in very early folklore. The gods of the Hittites and Canaanites had their supernatural messengers, and parallels to the Old Testament stories of angels are found in Near Eastern literature. "

"The 'Magic Papyri' contain many spells to secure just such help and protection of angels. From magic traditions arose the concept of the guardian angel. "

For added information see the review at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angel

Soja John Thaikattil,

Hello. Concerned the Christian Now Liberated, a.k.a. as Crossanized Christian and Catholic of Reality (self-designated) is a, please tick:

(a) an bona fide intelletual
(b) a spiritual person
(c) a civil and sensitive person
(d) a theological PhD holder
(e) none of the above

He is good at labellings and name-callings. Not much to be said for that.

Thanks and regards
"J"

Oh thou CCNL!

I have always admitted that I write as a lay person. That actually serves as a back door for me to write stuff without reading up on anything!!! I write spontaneously based on my own experience and my personal thoughts.

But you with your degree in theology (? ex-degree ?degree you don't care about anymore) and permanently quoting Crossan & Co: you are doing a lousy job of convincing anybody that your aversion for the "pretty thingy wingies" should be given any serious consideration. I can't even figure out if you are merely a religion bashing anti-theist!

Best wishes
Soja

Jihadist,

Sorry, but I think you missed my question. You stated that good works must be done with the heart and for purposes that are not selfish. But then you said that good works are needed in order for forgiveness. Well, my problem with this is that isn't good works in order to recieve forgiveness a selfish act? They are contradictory statements.

I do agree that good works are not to be selfish acts. The Apostle Paul spoke of not boasting in your works but boasting in God alone. If we could count our good deeds in favor of salvation, we would have some pretty arrogant people in heaven, boasting about how all their good deeds outweighed the bad and that God wasn't really even needed because they were "good" enough to make it on their own. I find that good works in order for forgiveness and salvation is philisophically impossible with a Sovereign and Holy God.

Good works in Christianity is the Holy Spirit working through you. It's God's good works. All glory to Him. We can only do good if our Lord who is indwelt in us does them through us. All glory to Him and none to us.....just the way it should be.

Thanks for hearing me out and I hope the best for you. I just want you to know that the grace of God is found in the person of Jesus Christ and through Him we can do great things. I hope you are ok with me telling you this in light of our conflicting worldviews.

Thanks Jihadist and take care.

Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia

Hello.

I agree completely with your two posts on the "Age of Narcissism" - the Me Generation, the generation of Self-Centred Ones, the Self-Absorbed Ones into navel gazing and all the Seven Deadly Sins and then some I suppose when indulging in - I, me, my, mine.

Key principles:

"What is it on for me?"
"What can I get out of this?

Key whines:

"You're ruining my life!"
"It's my life!"

Thanks and best regards
"J"

In step with the "Age of Narcissism" we have truly entered an age when there is a great outpouring of the Holy Spirit. (In Christianity such things are supposed to happen in the last days! I don't take that literally though.) More and more people are beginning to realise the value of the spiritual. While in another age, poverty might have brought people to religion, these days people are seeking God and deeper meaning in spite of their wealth and success because they feel an emptiness that material things cannot fill. The heart that was created for God cannot be filled with material goods and worldly success.

The fact that a mainstream international newspaper like The Washington Post has put its reputation at risk to run a religious forum is proof we are living in great spiritual times! The idea is catching on and spreading!

Praise be to God, no matter what people may call Him!

Wow, there has been an epidemic of commentaries by Catholic, Christian and Islamic "theo-talkers" today. I would appear they are all suffering from the same Three B Syndrome, i.e. Bred, Born and Brainwashed in their respective religions. Their operating manuals say their religions are the only "Right Paths". They appear to be a bit "wishy washy" on this but their books are inerrant so therein lies a major problem with all their commentaries.

And note, these "wannabee", "degreeless" "theo-talkers" never mention the obvious flaws in the founders and foundations of their religions.

Maybe we need a meeting of the various "pretty wingie thingies" involved to air out the flawed laundry.