God and the Constitution

To Anonymous:
You are right. We all reap what we sow. Galatians 6:7 says: “Do not be misled: God is not one to be mocked. For whatever a man is sowing, this he will also reap;”

Here is an answer for you:
The Bible says humans were created with the ability to make personal decisions, choosing between right and wrong.

Free will is a precious gift. God has made countless animals, and these are driven largely by instinct (Proverbs 30:24-28). On the other hand, humans have the freedom to make choices about what kind of person to become, what course of life to pursue, what friendships to form, and so on. We love to have a measure of freedom, and that is what God wants us to enjoy.

Jehovah is not interested in service under compulsion (2 Corinthians 9:7).

So the question is, How will you use the free will that Jehovah has given you? You have the opportunity to put the marvelous gift of free will to the best possible use by taking a stand on Jehovah’s side and choosing the right course of life (John 17:3, 1Timothy 6:17-19).

Question for you!

Free will for what?

Free will to choose? Right from wrong, good from bad?

OR just free will like you said? Right or wrong, good or bad?

In any case you always face consequences/results of your choice!!!!

The constitution is an instrument of a human government. Humans were created with free will. Governments are free to do what they will and reap the benefits or consequences.

The better question is, “Should a Christian be part of human governments?”

What does the Bible say?

(2Timothy 3:16) “All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness,”

Christ set the example that must be followed by those serving God:

(1Peter 2:21) “In fact, to this [course] YOU were called, because even Christ suffered for YOU, leaving YOU a model for YOU to follow his steps closely.”
Jesus declined to get involved in politics.
(John 6:14, 15) “Hence when the men saw the signs he performed, they began to say: “This is for a certainty the prophet that was to come into the world.”Therefore Jesus, knowing they were about to come and seize him to make him king, withdrew again into the mountain all alone.”

Jesus' response was based on: 1)his Father's view of expressions of human self-determination, which include human rule; 2)Jesus' awareness that there are powerful, hidden forces working against even the best human efforts at rulership; and 3)God's purpose to establish a heavenly government to rule over the entire earth.

1) With the advantage of thousands of years of hindsight, we can see that human self-determination has not been successful. Ecclesiastes 8:9 states: "Man has dominated man to his injury." This record of human self-rule confirms the truthfulness of Jeremiah 10:23: "I well know, O Jehovah, that to earthling man his way does not belong. It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step." History has proved that humans do not have the capacity to rule successfully without their Creator.

Jesus agreed. Independence from God was abhorrence to him. "I do nothing of my own initiative," he said. "I always do the things pleasing to [God]." (John 4:34; 8:28, 29) With no divine authorization to receive kingship from humans, Jesus did not even consider accepting it. This does not mean that he was reluctant to help his fellowman. He did all in his power to assist people to find the greatest happiness then and in the future. He even gave his life for mankind. (Matthew 5:3-11; 7:24-27; John 3:16) But Jesus knew that "for everything there is an appointed time," including God's time to assert his sovereignty over mankind. (Ecclesiastes 3:1; Matthew 24:14, 21, 22, 36-39)
Throughout human history, God has provided guidance for those who sincerely desire to know his will. He inspired loyal men to record his communications for any who looked to him for guidance. These communications are recorded in the Bible. (2 Timothy 3:16) He lovingly allowed faithful humans to come into a relationship with him, even becoming his friends. (Isaiah 41:8) And he provided them with the strength they needed to bear up under the difficult trials that mankind has experienced during these millenniums of independence. (Psalm 46:1; Philippians 4:13)
2) Satan, the Bible tells us, offered Jesus "all the kingdoms of the world and their glory" in exchange for one act of worship. (Matthew 4:8-10) Essentially, Jesus was offered world rulership—but on the Devil's terms. Jesus did not fall prey to this temptation. Satan could make such an offer. Jesus himself called the Devil "the ruler of the world," and the apostle Paul described him as "the god of this system of things."—John 14:30; 2 Corinthians 4:4; Ephesians 6:12.
Jesus knew that the Devil does not have mankind's best interests at heart. He described Satan as "a murderer" and as "the father of lies and of all that is false." (John 8:44)
3) Jesus stayed out of politics because he knew that at a future set time, God would establish a heavenly government to rule over the earth. The Bible calls this government God's Kingdom, and it was the main theme of Jesus' teaching. (Luke 4:43; Revelation 11:15) Jesus taught his disciples to pray for that Kingdom to come, for only under its rule will 'God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven.' (Matthew 6:9, 10)
Jesus always did things God's way.
(Hebrews 10:7)
“Then I said, ‘Look! I am come (in the roll of the book it is written about me) to do your will, O God.’””

(John 4:34)
“Jesus said to them: “My food is for me to do the will of him that sent me and to finish his work.”

(John 6:38)
“because I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me.”
Instead of choosing an independent course and trying to prop up or improve the existing system of things by political means, Jesus worked hard to advance the interests of God's Kingdom, the only solution to the world's problems. For his loyalty he was rewarded with a glorious throne in heaven as the very King of that Kingdom.
What will happen to man-made governments is answered at Daniel 2:44: "In the days of those kings [ruling at the end of the present system] the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these [man-made] kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite."
God's Kingdom will have to "crush" earthly rulerships because these insist on perpetuating the God-defying spirit of self-determination promoted by Satan back in the garden of Eden. In addition to working against mankind's best interests, those who strive to perpetuate that spirit put themselves on a collision course with the Creator. (Psalm 2:6-12; Revelation 16:14, 16)
We must ask ourselves, 'Are we for or against rule by God?'
In order to help people make an informed decision about rulership, Jesus commissioned his disciples to preach the "good news of the kingdom . . . in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations" before the end of the present system comes. (Matthew 24:14)
Today, some six million Christians in over 230 lands are helping people to gain an accurate knowledge of that Kingdom. God's Kingdom is the real key to a truly happy world, and the message announcing it is rightly described as good news.
Millions today who imitate Jesus in putting God's Kingdom first and in submitting to God's will also enjoy a wonderful gift—the privilege of being earthly subjects of God's Kingdom. (Matthew 6:33) Under its loving rule, they will be raised to human perfection, with the prospect of everlasting life. (Revelation 21:3, 4) Says 1 John 2:17: "The world is passing away and so is its desire, but he that does the will of God remains forever." With Satan and his followers swept away and the earth transformed into a global paradise free of divisive nationalism, corrupt commercial systems, and false religion, what an exquisite joy it will be to remain here forever.—Psalm 37:29; 72:16.

All possible kind of questions asked by non muslims about Islam answered on below web site:
http://www.irf.net/irf/faqonislam/index.htm

Most Common Questions asked by Non-Muslims

WAS ISLAM SPREAD BY THE SWORD?

Question:

How can Islam be called the religion of peace when it was spread by the sword?

Answer:

It is a common complaint among some non-Muslims that Islam would not have millions of adherents all over the world, if it had not been spread by the use of force. The following points will make it clear, that far from being spread by the sword, it was the inherent force of truth, reason and logic that was responsible for the rapid spread of Islam.

1. Islam means peace.

Islam comes from the root word ‘salaam’, which means peace. It also means submitting one’s will to Allah (swt). Thus Islam is a religion of peace, which is acquired by submitting one’s will to the will of the Supreme Creator, Allah (swt).

2. Sometimes force has to be used to maintain peace.

Each and every human being in this world is not in favour of maintaining peace and harmony. There are many, who would disrupt it for their own vested interests. Sometimes force has to be used to maintain peace. It is precisely for this reason that we have the police who use force against criminals and anti-social elements to maintain peace in the country. Islam promotes peace. At the same time, Islam exhorts it followers to fight where there is oppression. The fight against oppression may, at times, require the use of force. In Islam force can only be used to promote peace and justice.

3. Opinion of historian De Lacy O’Leary.

The best reply to the misconception that Islam was spread by the sword is given by the noted historian De Lacy O’Leary in the book "Islam at the cross road" (Page 8):

"History makes it clear however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of the sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myth that historians have ever repeated."

4. Muslims ruled Spain for 800 years.

Muslims ruled Spain for about 800 years. The Muslims in Spain never used the sword to force the people to convert. Later the Christian Crusaders came to Spain and wiped out the Muslims. There was not a single Muslim in Spain who could openly give the adhan, that is the call for prayers.

5. 14 million Arabs are Coptic Christians.

Muslims were the lords of Arabia for 1400 years. For a few years the British ruled, and for a few years the French ruled. Overall, the Muslims ruled Arabia for 1400 years. Yet today, there are 14 million Arabs who are Coptic Christians i.e. Christians since generations. If the Muslims had used the sword there would not have been a single Arab who would have remained a Christian.

6. More than 80% non-Muslims in India.

The Muslims ruled India for about a thousand years. If they wanted, they had the power of converting each and every non-Muslim of India to Islam. Today more than 80% of the population of India are non-Muslims. All these non-Muslim Indians are bearing witness today that Islam was not spread by the sword.

7. Indonesia and Malaysia.

Indonesia is a country that has the maximum number of Muslims in the world. The majority of people in Malaysia are Muslims. May one ask, "Which Muslim army went to Indonesia and Malaysia?"

8. East Coast of Africa.

Similarly, Islam has spread rapidly on the East Coast of Africa. One may again ask, if Islam was spread by the sword, "Which Muslim army went to the East Coast of Africa?"

9. Thomas Carlyle.

The famous historian, Thomas Carlyle, in his book "Heroes and Hero worship", refers to this misconception about the spread of Islam: "The sword indeed, but where will you get your sword? Every new opinion, at its starting is precisely in a minority of one. In one man’s head alone. There it dwells as yet. One man alone of the whole world believes it, there is one man against all men. That he takes a sword and try to propagate with that, will do little for him. You must get your sword! On the whole, a thing will propagate itself as it can."

10. No compulsion in religion.

With which sword was Islam spread? Even if Muslims had it they could not use it to spread Islam because the Qur’an says in the following verse:

"Let there be no compulsion in religion:
Truth stands out clear from error"
[Al-Qur’an 2:256]

11. Sword of the Intellect.

It is the sword of intellect. The sword that conquers the hearts and minds of people. The Qur’an says in Surah Nahl, chapter 16 verse 125:

"Invite (all) to the way of thy Lord
with wisdom and beautiful preaching;
and argue with them in ways that are
best and most gracious."
[Al-Qur’an 16:125]

12. Increase in the world religions from 1934 to 1984.

An article in Reader’s Digest ‘Almanac’, year book 1986, gave the statistics of the increase of percentage of the major religions of the world in half a century from 1934 to 1984. This article also appeared in ‘The Plain Truth’ magazine. At the top was Islam, which increased by 235%, and Christianity had increased only by 47%. May one ask, which war took place in this century which converted millions of people to Islam?

13. Islam is the fastest growing religion in America and Europe.

Today the fastest growing religion in America is Islam. The fastest growing religion in Europe in Islam. Which sword is forcing people in the West to accept Islam in such large numbers?

14. Dr. Joseph Adam Pearson.

Dr. Joseph Adam Pearson rightly says, "People who worry that nuclear weaponry will one day fall in the hands of the Arabs, fail to realize that the Islamic bomb has been dropped already, it fell the day MUHAMMED (pbuh) was born".

Most Common Questions asked by Non-Muslims

MUSLIMS ARE FUNDAMENTALISTS AND TERRORISTS

Question:

Why are most of the Muslims fundamentalists and terrorists?

Answer:

This question is often hurled at Muslims, either directly or indirectly, during any discussion on religion or world affairs. Muslim stereotypes are perpetuated in every form of the media accompanied by gross misinformation about Islam and Muslims. In fact, such misinformation and false propaganda often leads to discrimination and acts of violence against Muslims. A case in point is the anti-Muslim campaign in the American media following the Oklahoma bomb blast, where the press was quick to declare a ‘Middle Eastern conspiracy’ behind the attack. The culprit was later identified as a soldier from the American Armed Forces.

Let us analyze this allegation of ‘fundamentalism’ and ‘terrorism’:

1. Definition of the word ‘fundamentalist’

A fundamentalist is a person who follows and adheres to the fundamentals of the doctrine or theory he is following. For a person to be a good doctor, he should know, follow, and practise the fundamentals of medicine. In other words, he should be a fundamentalist in the field of medicine. For a person to be a good mathematician, he should know, follow and practise the fundamentals of mathematics. He should be a fundamentalist in the field of mathematics. For a person to be a good scientist, he should know, follow and practise the fundamentals of science. He should be a fundamentalist in the field of science.

2. Not all ‘fundamentalists’ are the same

One cannot paint all fundamentalists with the same brush. One cannot categorize all fundamentalists as either good or bad. Such a categorization of any fund amentalist will depend upon the field or activity in which he is a fundamentalist. A fundamentalist robber or thief causes harm to society and is therefore undesirable. A fundamentalist doctor, on the other hand, benefits society and earns much respect.

3. I am proud to be a Muslim fundamentalist

I am a fundamentalist Muslim who, by the grace of Allah, knows, follows and strives to practise the fundamentals of Islam. A true Muslim does not shy away from being a fundamentalist. I am proud to be a fundamentalist Muslim because, I know that the fundamentals of Islam are beneficial to humanity and the whole world. There is not a single fundamental of Islam that causes harm or is against the interests of the human race as a whole. Many people harbour misconceptions about Islam and consider several teachings of Islam to be unfair or improper. This is due to insufficient and incorrect knowledge of Islam. If one critically analyzes the teachings of Islam with an open mind, one cannot escape the fact that Islam is full of benefits both at the individual and collective levels.

4. Dictionary meaning of the word ‘fundamentalist’

According to Webster’s dictionary ‘fundamentalism’ was a movement in American Protestanism that arose in the earlier part of the 20th century. It was a reaction to modernism, and stressed the infallibility of the Bible, not only in matters of faith and morals but also as a literal historical record. It stressed on belief in the Bible as the literal word of God. Thus fundamentalism was a word initially used for a group of Christians who believed that the Bible was the verbatim word of God without any errors and mistakes.

According to the Oxford dictionary ‘fundamentalism’ means ‘strict maintenance of ancient or fundamental doctrines of any religion, especially Islam’.

Today the moment a person uses the word fundamentalist he thinks of a Muslim who is a terrorist.

5. Every Muslim should be a terrorist

Every Muslim should be a terrorist. A terrorist is a person who causes terror. The moment a robber sees a policeman he is terrified. A policeman is a terrorist for the robber. Similarly every Muslim should be a terrorist for the antisocial elements of society, such as thieves, dacoits and rapists. Whenever such an anti-social element sees a Muslim, he should be terrified. It is true that the word ‘terrorist’ is generally used for a person who causes terror among the common people. But a true Muslim should only be a terrorist to selective people i.e. anti-social elements, and not to the common innocent people. In fact a Muslim should be a source of peace for innocent people.

6. Different labels given to the same individual for the same action, i.e. ‘terrorist’ and ‘patriot’

Before India achieved independence from British rule, some freedom fighters of India who did not subscribe to non-violence were labeled as terrorists by the British government. The same individuals have been lauded by Indians for the same activities and hailed as ‘patriots’. Thus two different labels have been given to the same people for the same set of actions. One is calling him a terrorist while the other is calling him a patriot. Those who believed that Britain had a right to rule over India called these people terrorists, while those who were of the view that Britain had no right to rule India called them patriots and freedom fighters.

It is therefore important that before a person is judged, he is given a fair hearing. Both sides of the argument should be heard, the situation should be analyzed, and the reason and the intention of the person should be taken into account, and then the person can be judged accordingly.

7. Islam means peace

Islam is derived from the word ‘salaam’ which means peace. It is a religion of peace whose fundamentals teach its followers to maintain and promote peace throughout the world.

Thus every Muslim should be a fundamentalist i.e. he should follow the fundamentals of the Religion of Peace: Islam. He should be a terrorist only towards the antisocial elements in order to promote peace and justice in the society.

All possible kind of questions asked by non muslims about Islam answered on below web site:
http://www.irf.net/irf/faqonislam/index.htm

Most Common Questions asked by Non-Muslims

HIJAAB FOR WOMEN

Question:

Why does Islam degrade women by keeping them behind the veil?

Answer:

The status of women in Islam is often the target of attacks in the secular media. The ‘hijaab’ or the Islamic dress is cited by many as an example of the ‘subjugation’ of women under Islamic law. Before we analyze the reasoning behind the religiously mandated ‘hijaab’, let us first study the status of women in societies before the advent of Islam

1. In the past women were degraded and used as objects of lust

The following examples from history amply illustrate the fact that the status of women in earlier civilizations was very low to the extent that they were denied basic human dignity:

Babylonian Civilization:
The women were degraded and were denied all rights under the Babylonian law. If a man murdered a woman, instead of him being punished, his wife was put to death.

Greek Civilization:
Greek Civilization is considered the most glorious of all ancient civilizations. Under this very ‘glorious’ system, women were deprived of all rights and were looked down upon. In Greek mythology, an ‘imaginary woman’ called ‘Pandora’ is the root cause of misfortune of human beings. The Greeks considered women to be subhuman and inferior to men. Though chastity of women was precious, and women were held in high esteem, the Greeks were later overwhelmed by ego and sexual perversions. Prostitution became a regular practice amongst all classes of Greek society.

Roman Civilization:
When Roman Civilization was at the zenith of its ‘glory’, a man even had the right to take the life of his wife. Prostitution and nudity were common amongst the Romans.

Egyptian Civilization:
The Egyptian considered women evil and as a sign of a devil.

Pre-Islamic Arabia:
Before Islam spread in Arabia, the Arabs looked down upon women and very often when a female child was born, she was buried alive.

2. Islam uplifted women and gave them equality and expects them to maintain their status.

Islam uplifted the status of women and granted them their just rights 1400 years ago. Islam expects women to maintain their status.

Hijaab for men

People usually only discuss ‘hijaab’ in the context of women. However, in the Glorious Qur’an, Allah (swt) first mentions ‘hijaab’ for men before ‘hijaab’ for the women. The Qur’an mentions in Surah Noor:

"Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: and Allah is well acquainted with all that they do."
[Al-Qur’an 24:30]

The moment a man looks at a woman and if any brazen or unashamed thought comes to his mind, he should lower his gaze.

Hijaab for women.

The next verse of Surah Noor, says:

" And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands’ fathers, their sons..."
[Al-Qur’an 24:31]

3. Six criteria for Hijaab.

According to Qur’an and Sunnah there are basically six criteria for observing hijaab:

Extent:

The first criterion is the extent of the body that should be covered. This is different for men and women. The extent of covering obligatory on the male is to cover the body at least from the navel to the knees. For women, the extent of covering obligatory is to cover the complete body except the face and the hands upto the wrist. If they wish to, they can cover even these parts of the body. Some scholars of Islam insist that the face and the hands are part of the obligatory extent of ‘hijaab’.

All the remaining five criteria are the same for men and women.

The clothes worn should be loose and should not reveal the figure.

The clothes worn should not be transparent such that one can see through them.

The clothes worn should not be so glamorous as to attract the opposite sex.

The clothes worn should not resemble that of the opposite sex.

The clothes worn should not resemble that of the unbelievers i.e. they should not wear clothes that are specifically identities or symbols of the unbelievers’ religions.

4. Hijaab includes conduct and behaviour among other things

Complete ‘hijaab’, besides the six criteria of clothing, also includes the moral conduct, behaviour, attitude and intention of the individual. A person only fulfilling the criteria of ‘hijaab’ of the clothes is observing ‘hijaab’ in a limited sense. ‘Hijaab’ of the clothes should be accompanied by ‘hijaab’ of the eyes, ‘hijaab’ of the heart, ‘hijaab’ of thought and ‘hijaab’ of intention. It also includes the way a person walks, the way a person talks, the way he behaves, etc.

5. Hijaab prevents molestation

The reason why Hijaab is prescribed for women is mentioned in the Qur’an in the following verses of Surah Al-Ahzab:

"O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad); that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."
[Al-Qur’an 33:59]

The Qur’an says that Hijaab has been prescribed for the women so that they are recognized as modest women and this will also prevent them from being molested.

6. Example of twin sisters

Suppose two sisters who are twins, and who are equally beautiful, walk down the street. One of them is attired in the Islamic hijaab i.e. the complete body is covered, except for the face and the hands up to the wrists. The other sister is wearing western clothes, a mini skirt or shorts. Just around the corner there is a hooligan or ruffian who is waiting for a catch, to tease a girl. Whom will he tease? The girl wearing the Islamic Hijaab or the girl wearing the skirt or the mini? Naturally he will tease the girl wearing the skirt or the mini. Such dresses are an indirect invitation to the opposite sex for teasing and molestation. The Qur’an rightly says that hijaab prevents women from being molested.

7. Capital punishment for the rapists

Under the Islamic shariah, a man convicted of having raped a woman, is given capital punishment. Many are astonished at this ‘harsh’ sentence. Some even say that Islam is a ruthless, barbaric religion! I have asked a simple question to hundreds of non-Muslim men. Suppose, God forbid, someone rapes your wife, your mother or your sister. You are made the judge and the rapist is brought in front of you. What punishment would you give him? All of them said they would put him to death. Some went to the extent of saying they would torture him to death. To them I ask, if someone rapes your wife or your mother you want to put him to death. But if the same crime is committed on somebody else’s wife or daughter you say capital punishment is barbaric. Why should there be double standards?

8. Western society falsely claims to have uplifted women

Western talk of women’s liberalization is nothing but a disguised form of exploitation of her body, degradation of her soul, and deprivation of her honour. Western society claims to have ‘uplifted’ women. On the contrary it has actually degraded them to the status of concubines, mistresses and society butterflies who are mere tools in the hands of pleasure seekers and sex marketeers, hidden behind the colourful screen of ‘art’ and ‘culture’.

9. USA has one of the highest rates of rape

United States of America is supposed to be one of the most advanced countries of the world. It also has one of the highest rates of rape in any country in the world. According to a FBI report, in the year 1990, every day on an average 1756 cases of rape were committed in U.S.A alone. Later another report said that on an average everyday 1900 cases of rapes are committed in USA. The year was not mentioned. May be it was 1992 or 1993. May be the Americans got ‘bolder’ in the following years.

Consider a scenario where the Islamic hijaab is followed in America. Whenever a man looks at a woman and any brazen or unashamed thought comes to his mind, he lowers his gaze. Every woman wears the Islamic hijaab, that is the complete body is covered except the face and the hands upto the wrist. After this if any man commits rape he is given capital punishment. I ask you, in such a scenario, will the rate of rape in America increase, will it remain the same, or will it decrease?

10. Implementation of Islamic Shariah will reduce the rate of rapes

Naturally as soon as Islamic Shariah is implemented positive results will be inevitable. If Islamic Shariah is implemented in any part of the world, whether it is America or Europe, society will breathe easier. Hijaab does not degrade a woman but uplifts a woman and protects her modesty and chastity.

All possible kind of questions asked by non muslims about Islam answered on below web site:
http://www.irf.net/irf/faqonislam/index.htm

CONGRATULATING AN ATHEIST

Normally, when I meet an atheist, the first thing I like to do is to congratulate him and say, " My special congratulations to you", because most of the people who believe in God are doing blind belief - he is a Christian, because his father is a Christian; he is a Hindu, because his father is a Hindu; the majority of the people in the world are blindly following the religion of their fathers. An atheist, on the other hand, even though he may belong to a religious family, uses his intellect to deny the existence of God; what ever concept or qualities of God he may have learnt in his religion may not seem to be logical to him.

My Muslim brothers may question me, "Zakir, why are you congratulating an atheist?" The reason that I am congratulating an atheist is because he agrees with the first part of the Shahada i.e. the Islamic Creed, ‘La ilaaha’ - meaning ‘there is no God’. So half my job is already done; now the only part left is ‘il lallah’ i.e. ‘BUT ALLAH’ which I shall do Insha Allah. With others (who are not atheists) I have to first remove from their minds the wrong concept of God they may have and then put the correct concept of one true God.

LOGICAL CONCEPT OF GOD

My first question to the atheist will be: "What is the definition of God?" For a person to say there is no God, he should know what is the meaning of God. If I hold a book and say that ‘this is a pen’, for the opposite person to say, ‘it is not a pen’, he should know what is the definition of a pen, even if he does not know nor is able to recognise or identify the object I am holding in my hand. For him to say this is not a pen, he should at least know what a pen means. Similarly for an atheist to say ‘there is no God’, he should at least know the concept of God. His concept of God would be derived from the surroundings in which he lives. The god that a large number of people worship has got human qualities - therefore he does not believe in such a god. Similarly a Muslim too does not and should not believe in such false gods.

If a non-Muslim believes that Islam is a merciless religion with something to do with terrorism; a religion which does not give rights to women; a religion which contradicts science; in his limited sense that non-Muslim is correct to reject such Islam. The problem is he has a wrong picture of Islam. Even I reject such a false picture of Islam, but at the same time, it becomes my duty as a Muslim to present the correct picture of Islam to that non-Muslim i.e. Islam is a merciful religion, it gives equal rights to the women, it is not incompatible with logic, reason and science; if I present the correct facts about Islam, that non-Muslim may Inshallah accept Islam.

Similarly the atheist rejects the false gods and the duty of every Muslim is to present the correct concept of God which he shall Insha Allah not refuse.

(You may refer to my article, ‘Concept of God in Islam’, for more details)

QUR’AN AND MODERN SCIENCE

The methods of proving the existence of God with usage of the material provided in the ‘Concept of God in Islam’ to an atheist may satisfy some but not all.

Many atheists demand a scientific proof for the existence of God. I agree that today is the age of science and technology. Let us use scientific knowledge to kill two birds with one stone, i.e. to prove the existence of God and simultaneously prove that the Qur’an is a revelation of God.

If a new object or a machine, which no one in the world has ever seen or heard of before, is shown to an atheist or any person and then a question is asked, " Who is the first person who will be able to provide details of the mechanism of this unknown object? After little bit of thinking, he will reply, ‘the creator of that object.’ Some may say ‘the producer’ while others may say ‘the manufacturer.’ What ever answer the person gives, keep it in your mind, the answer will always be either the creator, the producer, the manufacturer or some what of the same meaning, i.e. the person who has made it or created it. Don’t grapple with words, whatever answer he gives, the meaning will be same, therefore accept it.

SCIENTIFIC FACTS MENTIONED IN THE QUR’AN: for details on this subject please refer to my book, ‘THE QUR’AN AND MODERN SCIENCE – COMPATIBLE OR INCOMPATIBLE?

THEORY OF PROBABILITY

In mathematics there is a theory known as ‘Theory of Probability’. If you have two options, out of which one is right, and one is wrong, the chances that you will chose the right one is half, i.e. one out of the two will be correct. You have 50% chances of being correct. Similarly if you toss a coin the chances that your guess will be correct is 50% (1 out of 2) i.e. 1/2. If you toss a coin the second time, the chances that you will be correct in the second toss is again 50% i.e. half. But the chances that you will be correct in both the tosses is half multiplied by half (1/2 x 1/2) which is equal to 1/4 i.e. 50% of 50% which is equal to 25%. If you toss a coin the third time, chances that you will be correct all three times is (1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2) that is 1/8 or 50% of 50% of 50% that is 12½%.

A dice has got six sides. If you throw a dice and guess any number between 1 to 6, the chances that your guess will be correct is 1/6. If you throw the dice the second time, the chances that your guess will be correct in both the throws is (1/6 x 1/6) which is equal to 1/36. If you throw the dice the third time, the chances that all your three guesses are correct is (1/6 x 1/6 x 1/6) is equal to 1/216 that is less than 0.5 %.

Let us apply this theory of probability to the Qur’an, and assume that a person has guessed all the information that is mentioned in the Qur’an which was unknown at that time. Let us discuss the probability of all the guesses being simultaneously correct.

At the time when the Qur’an was revealed, people thought the world was flat, there are several other options for the shape of the earth. It could be triangular, it could be quadrangular, pentagonal, hexagonal, heptagonal, octagonal, spherical, etc. Lets assume there are about 30 different options for the shape of the earth. The Qur’an rightly says it is spherical, if it was a guess the chances of the guess being correct is 1/30.

The light of the moon can be its own light or a reflected light. The Qur’an rightly says it is a reflected light. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/2 and the probability that both the guesses i.e the earth is spherical and the light of the moon is reflected light is 1/30 x 1/2 = 1/60.

Further, the Qur’an also mentions every living thing is made of water. Every living thing can be made up of either wood, stone, copper, aluminum, steel, silver, gold, oxygen, nitrogen, hydrogen, oil, water, cement, concrete, etc. The options are say about 10,000. The Qur’an rightly says that everything is made up of water. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/10,000 and the probability of all the three guesses i.e. the earth is spherical, light of moon is reflected light and everything is created from water being correct is 1/30 x 1/2 x 1/10,000 = 1/60,000 which is equal to about .0017%.

The Qur’an speaks about hundreds of things that were not known to men at the time of its revelation. Only in three options the result is .0017%. I leave it upto you, to work out the probability if all the hundreds of the unknown facts were guesses, the chances of all of them being correct guesses simultaneously and there being not a single wrong guess. It is beyond human capacity to make all correct guesses without a single mistake, which itself is sufficient to prove to a logical person that the origin of the Qur’an is Divine.

CREATOR IS THE AUTHOR OF THE QUR’AN

The only logical answer to the question as to who could have mentioned all these scientific facts 1400 years ago before they were discovered, is exactly the same answer initially given by the atheist or any person, to the question who will be the first person who will be able to tell the mechanism of the unknown object. It is the ‘CREATOR’, the producer, the Manufacturer of the whole universe and its contents. In the English language He is ‘God’, or more appropriate in the Arabic language, ‘ALLAH’.

QUR’AN IS A BOOK OF SIGNS AND NOT SCIENCE

Let me remind you that the Qur’an is not a book of Science, ‘S-C-I-E-N-C-E’ but a book of Signs ‘S-I-G-N-S’ i.e. a book of ayaats. The Qur’an contains more than 6,000 ayaats, i.e. ‘signs’, out of which more than a thousand speak about Science. I am not trying to prove that the Qur’an is the word of God using scientific knowledge as a yard stick because any yardstick is supposed to be more superior than what is being checked or verified. For us Muslims the Qur’an is the Furqan i.e. criteria to judge right from wrong and the ultimate yardstick which is more superior to scientific knowledge.

But for an educated man who is an atheist, scientific knowledge is the ultimate test which he believes in. We do know that science many a times takes ‘U’ turns, therefore I have restricted the examples only to scientific facts which have sufficient proof and evidence and not scientific theories based on assumptions. Using the ultimate yardstick of the atheist, I am trying to prove to him that the Qur’an is the word of God and it contains the scientific knowledge which is his yardstick which was discovered recently, while the Qur’an was revealed 1400 year ago. At the end of the discussion, we both come to the same conclusion that God though superior to science, is not incompatible with it.

SCIENCE IS ELIMINATING MODELS OF GOD BUT NOT GOD

Francis Bacon, the famous philosopher, has rightly said that a little knowledge of science makes man an atheist, but an in-depth study of science makes him a believer in God. Scientists today are eliminating models of God, but they are not eliminating God. If you translate this into Arabic, it is La illaha illal la, There is no god, (god with a small ‘g’ that is fake god) but God (with a capital ‘G’).

Surah Fussilat:

"Soon We will show them our signs in the (farthest) regions (of the earth), and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that this is the Truth. Is it not enough that thy Lord doth witness all things?"

[Al-Quran 41:53]

Almaney, interesting bigoted reply. Judge not lest ye be judged, eh? Some people cannot grow beyond their self-imposed limitations. I think when you are president I will pay some attention to what you think. Meanwhile... You were just joking, right?

Knock, Knock -Jist (formerly The Jihadist), Eboo, John Esposito, Zudhi Jasser, Moody, Victoria, Pamela, Ahmen from Bahrain, et al- Anybody Home??,

(These questions are based on historic reality. They are not "irrational" attacks on Islam.)

Come on now, you can do it, what about those "wingie thingies" in your children's education, those hallucinations by the long-time dead, "cartoon- worthy" Arab, the inherent sins of Islam, terror and torture theocracies, Islamic plagiarizing of the good books, and Jay Smith's anti-koran study???

I would totally agree with Victoria's advise that one should not descend in tit for tat way.

I was carried away due to the recent Palestine Gaza border Muslims agony.

Though my way of addressing ON RECORD non Muslim bios and atrocities was not exemplary and up to the Muslims standards BUT mentioning them purposely also felt necessary, enabling every one to see the both side of picture here on blogs.

I personally felt ONLY showing and explaining the Muslim concepts correctly was not influencing the IRRATIONAL ATTACKS on Islam, therefore I also felt it important to HIGHLIGHT world events and in practice malicious theories for COMPARATIVE ANALYSIS only!

I would totally agree with Victoria's advise that one should not react in tit for tat way.

I was carried away due to the recent Plestine Gaze border muslims agony.

Though my way of addressing ON RECORD non muslim bios and atrocities was not examplary and up to the muslims expectations BUT mentioning them purposely also felt necessory, enabling every one to see the both side of picture here on blogs.

I personally felt ONLY showing and explaning the muslim concepts correctly was not influencing the IRRATIONAL ATTACKS on Islam, therefore also felt it important to HIGHLIGHT world events and melicious theories for COMPARATIVE ANALYSIS!

Knock, Knock Jist (formerly The Jihadist), Moody, Eboo, Victoria, Ahmed from Bahrain et al- Anybody Home??,

Come on now, you can do it, what about those "wingie thingies" in your children's education, those hallucinations by the long-time dead, "cartoon- worthy" Arab, the inherent sins of Islam, your Sunni superior class status, terror and torture theocracies, Islamic plagiarizing of the good books, and Jay Smith's anti-koran study???

(READ IT SLOWLY)

To the great fan and admirer CCNL of
USA masters "FATHER OF ALL DEVILS" ?
Rightly said by Iranian President before US mad bushy bush use the words axe.o.e.

AND below is the kind of LIBRATION AND FREEDOM your SECULAR, CAPTILIST, DEMOCARTE, CORPORATE MONSTOR ADMINISTRATION ESTABLISHMENT is providing to the world NOW for more than half century. YOU ARE SO PROUD OF.

GREEDY INTOLRENT ANIMALS!!!!!

CCNL & ALL the blood bath Admirers:

Now the World is fully aware of USA
1- Pentagon military organization "Chaos Theory" all over the world to support its Weapon Industry with more than 18000 fighter plans and more than 1800 war ships IN SERVICE which ALONE IS BIGGEST THEN THE REST OF THE WORLD WEAPON INDUSTRIES & ARMS IN SERVICE COLLECTIVELY including Russia, China, India, Europe, NATO etc. And responsible of supplying illegal weapons all over the world FUELING ALL KIND OF BLOOD SHED ESPECIALLY IN CONTINENT OF AFRICA & MIDDLE EAST.
2- And USA White House civilian government "Conspiracy theory" to support its advances to control world resources.
Your and your Govt. credibility SUCKS.
Liars and conspirers!!!
Your pentagon driven Media conspires and All US dumb heads do is just follow the media slogans.
For example:
YOU and your stupid Bushy Bush call Iran Exe of Evil.
If some body with the slightest sense analysis. IRAN HAS NEVER SHOWN AGGRESSION WITH ANY BODY IN LAST 250 YEARS. It was puppet Saddam of Iraq who attacked Iran on his USA bushy master administration behalf.
IRAN HARDLY HAS ANY AIR FORCE & NAVY.
But USA mad administrative dogs talk about what if Iran will acquire nuck. They haven't yet.
This reason is so STUPID. The question is....
What about Pakistan already nuclear with ability to deliver.
What about Korea WHO THREATEN US RIGHT AT ITS FACE, what about Russia.
What about Mad Israel. Which is REAL THREAT WITH NUCKS to the whole Muslim world. If one look according to the MAD USA ADMINISTRATION PROSPECTIVE!!!
IT IS AGAIN PENTAGON + WHITE HOUSE driven Chaos and Conspiracy theory by Zionist controlled Media and stupid US masses again ONLY REPEATING media words like axe of evil, shia sunni, Iran Arabs bla bla bla without putting any burdon OR strain on there brains to once try to think REALISTICLY, same way like they believed in there Tyrant Rulers when there Rulers bluntly lied about EVERY THING to attack Iraq and Afghanistan.

Sunni and Shia are living peacefully side by side ALL OVER THE WORLD.

Even in more than 8 year Iran and Iraq war raged by USA Bushy Administration Iraqi puppet. There was NO UNREST in Iraqi civil fabric. NO ONE was attacking the establishment in the Iraq; No kind of CIVIL DESTRUCION was in progress, raping, killing, bomb blasting CIVILIANS BEORE THE US ANIMALS INVASION was in progress.
It is the same 300 YEARS OLD COLONIAL divide and ruthless rule technique PRACTICED BY the US animals, kill the Shia blame the Sunni, kill the Sunni blame the Shia FUEL THE FIRE AND KILL CIVILIANS INDESCRIMINATELY in the name of collateral damage.
THE WHOLE WORLD AND MUSLIMS ARE VERY WELL AWARE OF IT.

Kuwait war was again raged by USA ANIMAL Bushy Administration Iraqi puppet.

In Bosnia and Kosovo case, YOU ANIMALS kept your CRIMNAL SILENCE FOR 2-3 YEARS until YOUR butchers were done and satisfied with there Muslim slaughter. YOU ANIMALS couldn't bear the Muslim independent state on your European Continent. Saving them after you are done and satisfied is a big B.S.!!

CCNL,
Your pentagon chaotheratic or should i say chaotic mind need some med's.
If millions and millions of pilgirms from all the sects and countries OF THE WORLD are not good enough proof for your KIND then dig a hole and jump.
Muslim sectarian minor differences are not LIKE christian BRUTAL AND VIOLENT ENEMOCITY FILLED HISTORY.
And don't try to paint EVERY political violence as muslims responsible.
"Where ALL the DEVILS routes are in MAD PENTAGON CHAOS & MAD White House Conspiracy!!"

Moody, Moody, Moody,

You asked: "So if it (Islam) covers political nature of us, WHATS WRONG ABOUT IT?"

Hmmm, now read this very slowly so we don't have to repeat it again:

Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, who also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "pretty thingies" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the assassination of Bhutto, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.

And who funds these acts of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

CCNL,

Now all you are left to do is to JUMP INTO THE DITCH, since you have nothing more to say or add.

Go Go hurry!

Moody, Moody, Moody, Jist, Jist, Jist,

No matter how you phrase it or from which side you look at it or from via the bottom or the top, there is only one contemporary conclusion possible:

No one is safe until the koran is "deflawed"!!!!!!!!!!!!

I mean't to say "Khilafat".

Tribes from all the lands always selects there leaders and these leaders selected the Khalifa.
The ONLY first four rightly guided Khalif's of Islam.

"Shura" was the concil of the tribal leaders to pass the laws unanimously.

Just like in your modern weak form of democracy where President selected by the parlimentarians who are selected by the people.

And then that president become GOLAYA and start dictating torture laws, destruction and invasion and where your democracy start inslaving you by making personal life interveining laws about kids, women, men, marriage and so many others to make it living hell for you poor fallas!!

Chant hare Krishna.....and all solutions will be found!

http://krishna.com

Gary:

YOur exaggerated incorrect info based upon twisted historian lies doesn't add up with the FACTS. You need a correction which means bit more of comparaitve studies.

Islam is for humans, therefore UNLIKE OTHER CONCEPTS OR RELIGIONS, it has extensively explained every aspect of human behaviour, nature, actions, thougts and prescribed CORRECTIVE MEASURES AS WELL.

So if it covers political nature of us, WHATS WRONG ABOUT IT?

Your envy is based on UNFAIR REASONS!

It is UNFAIR to compare it with Christian Political "Masses" Blood Bath History.

In Muslim politcal past general masses were least effected. It was confined to power and rule ONLY.
And doesn't prove any where that Islamic Political Guide Lines are wrong at any level.

The First REAL Democracy was made by Muslims as "Shura", though didn't lasted for more than 40-50 years. Go and take some history lessons.
AND TRY TO AVOID FICTION!!!

Gary:

YOur exaggerated incorrect info based upon twisted historian lies doesn't add up with the FACTS. You need a correction which means bit more of comparaitve studies.

Islam is for humans, therefore UNLIKE OTHER CONCEPTS OR RELIGIONS, it has extensively explained every aspect of human behaviour, nature, actions, thougts and prescribed CORRECTIVE MEASURES AS WELL.

So if it covers political nature of us, WHATS WRONG ABOUT IT?

Your envy is based on UNFAIR REASONS!

It is UNFAIR to compare it with Christian Political "Masses" Blood Bath History.

In Muslim politcal past general masses were least effected. It was confined to power and rule ONLY.
And doesn't prove any where that Islamic Political Guide Lines are wrong at any level.

The First REAL Democracy was made by Muslims as "Shura", though didn't lasted for more than 40-50 years. Go and take some history lessons.
AND TRY TO AVOID FICTION!!!

Gary:

YOur exaggerated incorrect info based upon twisted historian lies doesn't add up with the FACTS. You need a correction which means bit more of comparaitve studies.

Islam is for humans, therefore UNLIKE OTHER CONCEPTS OR RELIGIONS, it has extensively explained every aspect of human behaviour, nature, actions, thougts and prescribed CORRECTIVE MEASURES AS WELL.

So if it covers political nature of us, WHATS WRONG ABOUT IT?

Your envy is based on UNFAIR REASONS!

It is UNFAIR to compare it with Christian Political "Masses" Blood Bath History.

In Muslim politcal past general masses were least effected. It was confined to power and rule ONLY.
And doesn't prove any where that Islamic Political Guide Lines are wrong at any level.

The First REAL Democracy was made by Muslims as "Shura", though didn't lasted for more than 40-50 years. Go and take some history lessons.
AND TRY TO AVOID FICTION!!!

TTWSYFAMDGGAHJMJ:

You don't even need to dig in the past FULL OF IT.
Just look at Irish Catholic Protestant decades long war.

Hello Gary,

You stated : "Good grief Moody get real Politics and religion are essentially indistinguishable in Islam. Islam has been involved in more wars of conquest than any other religion in history."

You mean Muslims or Islam?

I hate to bring this up, but did you really read and consider the history of the world in an objective and impartial manner?

Did you leave out the encounters with/discovery of the Americas and colonial and colonising period by European Christians of other lands and peoples in history?

North Americans said in their history books that Columbus "discovered" America.

Latin Americans, including Mexicans, in their history books, said Columbus "encountered" America.

Go figure.

Good grief Moody get real Politics and religion are essentially indistinguishable in Islam. Islam has been involved in more wars of conquest than any other religion in history.

Huckabee's statement is devoid of content. He is simply making an appeal to people with conservative, likely Christian leanings without actually outlining the amendments to the constitution he would make. This soundbite isn't even worthy of discussion, and is flat out disrespectful towards serious Christians who would like to see specific grievances dealt with.

Glitz at best, deception at worst. Typical.

Huckabee's statement is devoid of content. He is simply making an appeal to people with conservative, likely Christian leanings without actually outlining the amendments to the constitution he would make. This soundbite isn't even worthy of discussion, and is flat out disrespectful towards serious Christians who would like to see specific grievances dealt with.

Glitz at best, deception at worst. Typical.

I think that this forum is getting a little out of hand. The conversation has completely turned from Huckabee's comment to bashing between Christianity and Muslim faiths. Both have good people who are doing their best to follow what they believe is right. Why can we not accept that and move on. Come on people. Whether we are Christian or Muslim it is still in our teachings to treat others with respect. And that includes not bashing them behind some made up name over the internet. Be Mature. Live your religion, or if you chose not to have a religion, at least, please, live a good life. That's what this world needs. People LIVING what they believe.

Forget Huckabee: Romney is Storming the Gates

Youse Guys who said a Mormon couldn't win

now have to face up to the reality

that it is a two man race:

The Torturee vs the Change Artist.

How will Romney fare now.

Is the Mormon problem gone?

Henry the Mormon

Moody, Moody, Moody,

No matter how you phrase it or from which side you look at it or from via the bottom or the top, there is only one conclusion possible:

No one is safe until the koran is "deflawed"!!!!!!!!!!!!

IN REPLY TO
MOODY
Moody :
CCNL,

"Your pentagon chaotheratic or should i say chaotic mind need some med's.

If millions and millions of pilgirms from all the sects and countries OF THE WORLD are not good enough proof for your KIND then dig a hole and jump.

Muslim sectarian minor differences are not LIKE christian BRUTAL AND VIOLENT ENEMOCITY FILLED HISTORY."

REPLY:
Can you document some of these "violent enemocity [?????] filled Christian acts?"

Hopefully this is not a referendum on Huckabees personal opinions or aspirations to become President. He is not my favorite candidate but has at times presented good ideas. I believe this is a bad one and the American people and system of government will make that clear. It is very obvious that the society of today is much diferent then that of say 1776. Because there is a stark difference in society it is obvious leadership and government must be at a minimum willing to adjust to the situation. I believe a major part of our biblical tradition and history was the divine inspiration and handing down of rules, laws and a system that would provide for an efficient government.

To the great fan and admirer CCNL
of
USA masters "FATHER OF ALL DEVILS" ?
Rightly said by Iranian President before US mad bushy bush use the words axe.o.e.

AND below is the kind of LIBRATION AND FREEDOM your SECULAR, CAPTILIST, DEMOCARTE, CORPORATE MONSTOR ADMINISTRATION ESTABLISHMENT is providing to the world NOW for more than half century. YOU ARE SO PROUD OF.

GREEDY INTOLRENT ANIMALS!!!!!

CCNL & ALL the blood bath Admirers:

Now the World is fully aware of USA
1- Pentagon military organization "Chaos Theory" all over the world to support its Weapon Industry with more than 18000 fighter plans and more than 1800 war ships IN SERVICE which ALONE IS BIGGEST THEN THE REST OF THE WORLD WEAPON INDUSTRIES & ARMS IN SERVICE COLLECTIVELY including Russia, China, India, Europe, NATO etc. And responsible of supplying illegal weapons all over the world FUELING ALL KIND OF BLOOD SHED ESPECIALLY IN CONTINENT OF AFRICA & MIDDLE EAST.
2- And USA White House civilian government "Conspiracy theory" to support its advances to control world resources.
Your and your Govt. credibility SUCKS.
Liars and conspirers!!!
Your pentagon driven Media conspires and All US dumb heads do is just follow the media slogans.
For example:
YOU and your stupid Bushy Bush call Iran Exe of Evil.
If some body with the slightest sense analysis. IRAN HAS NEVER SHOWN AGGRESSION WITH ANY BODY IN LAST 250 YEARS. It was puppet Saddam of Iraq who attacked Iran on his USA bushy master administration behalf.
IRAN HARDLY HAS ANY AIR FORCE & NAVY.
But USA mad administrative dogs talk about what if Iran will acquire nuck. They haven't yet.
This reason is so STUPID. The question is....
What about Pakistan already nuclear with ability to deliver.
What about Korea WHO THREATEN US RIGHT AT ITS FACE, what about Russia.
What about Mad Israel. Which is REAL THREAT WITH NUCKS to the whole Muslim world. If one look according to the MAD USA ADMINISTRATION PROSPECTIVE!!!
IT IS AGAIN PENTAGON + WHITE HOUSE driven Chaos and Conspiracy theory by Zionist controlled Media and stupid US masses again ONLY REPEATING media words like axe of evil, shia sunni, Iran Arabs bla bla bla without putting any burdon OR strain on there brains to once try to think REALISTICLY, same way like they believed in there Tyrant Rulers when there Rulers bluntly lied about EVERY THING to attack Iraq and Afghanistan.

Sunni and Shia are living peacefully side by side ALL OVER THE WORLD.

Even in more than 8 year Iran and Iraq war raged by USA Bushy Administration Iraqi puppet. There was NO UNREST in Iraqi civil fabric. NO ONE was attacking the establishment in the Iraq; No kind of CIVIL DESTRUCION was in progress, raping, killing, bomb blasting CIVILIANS BEORE THE US ANIMALS INVASION was in progress.
It is the same 300 YEARS OLD COLONIAL divide and ruthless rule technique PRACTICED BY the US animals, kill the Shia blame the Sunni, kill the Sunni blame the Shia FUEL THE FIRE AND KILL CIVILIANS INDESCRIMINATELY in the name of collateral damage.
THE WHOLE WORLD AND MUSLIMS ARE VERY WELL AWARE OF IT.

Kuwait war was again raged by USA ANIMAL Bushy Administration Iraqi puppet.

In Bosnia and Kosovo case, YOU ANIMALS kept your CRIMNAL SILENCE FOR 2-3 YEARS until YOUR butchers were done and satisfied with there Muslim slaughter. YOU ANIMALS couldn't bear the Muslim independent state on your European Continent. Saving them after you are done and satisfied is a big B.S.!!

Moody :
CCNL,

Your pentagon chaotheratic or should i say chaotic mind need some med's.

If millions and millions of pilgirms from all the sects and countries OF THE WORLD are not good enough proof for your KIND then dig a hole and jump.

Muslim sectarian minor differences are not LIKE christian BRUTAL AND VIOLENT ENEMOCITY FILLED HISTORY.

And don't try to paint EVERY political violence as muslims responsible.

"Where ALL the routes are in MAD PENTAGON CHAOS!!"

Moody, Moody, Moody,

What is it that you do not understand about the following????

Please back up your conclusions that Sunnis and Shiites love each other. The visit to Mecca is hardly proof since there is no physical way to tell a Sunni from a Shiite. If they would ID themselves, there would be bloodshed.

Again and again, please note the following (use a translator if you do not understand English): The Sunni-Shiite Blood 800 Year-Old Blood Feud- an update,

In Saudi Arabia:

From: cnn.com in 2007

"Al-Sistani was apparently referring to Abdullah bin Jabrain, a key member of Saudi Arabia's clerical establishment, who last month joined a chorus of other senior figures from the hardline Wahhabi school of Sunni Islam that regards Shiites as infidels.

Bin Jabrain described Shiites as "the most vicious enemy of Muslims."

In Palestine:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/22/world/middleeast/22jihadists.html?ex=1311220800&en=477ff07cfa579449&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

An excerpt:

"The conflict in Lebanon has ignited a robust debate on jihadist Web sites over backing for Hezbollah, the Shiite group that set off the crisis when it seized two Israeli soldiers on July 12. The discussions reflect the widening divide between Shiite and Sunni Arabs in parts of the Middle East. Accusing Palestinians of being anti-Shiite, one Iraqi Shiite militant bitterly wrote, “It is better to concentrate one’s efforts on helping the Shiite kinfolk rather than the Sunnis.”

In Iraq:

The 24/7 Sunni-Shiite civil war- death toll, 4000 US troops and 80,625 – 88,048 Iraqi civilians

In Pakistan:

http://faroutliers.wordpress.com/2006/10/13/pakistans-transition-from-shia-to-sunni-leadership/

an excerpt:

"The coup of 1977 ended the Pakistani experiment with inclusive Muslim nationalism. Shia politicians, generals, and business leaders remained on the scene, but a steadily “Islamizing” (read “Sunnifying”) Pakistan came to look more and more like the Arab world, with Sunnis on top and Shias gradually pushed out. Pakistan in many regards captures the essence of the political challenge that the Shia have faced. The promise of the modern state has eluded them as secular nationalism has been colonized from within by Sunni hegemony."

Islam reeks of the stench of warmongering and terror. How can you stand the odor that permeates from the following acts of violence:?

This agenda continues as shown by the assassination of Bhutto, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.

And who funds these acts of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

A partial body count:

1a) Assassination of Benazir Bhutto

1b) 9/11, 3000 mostly US citizens, 1000’s injured

2) The 24/7 Sunni-Shiite centuries-old blood feud currently being carried out in Iraq, 4000 US troops and 80,625 – 88,048 Iraqi civilians iraqbodycount.org/

3) Kenya- In Nairobi, about 212 people were killed and an estimated 4000 injured; in Dar es Salaam, the attack killed at least 11 and wounded 85.[2]

4) Bali-in 2002-killing 202 people, 164 of whom were foreign nationals, and 38 Indonesian citizens. A further 209 people were injured.

5) Bali in 2005- Twenty people were killed, and 129 people were injured by three bombers who killed themselves in the attacks.

6) Spain in 2004- killing 191 people and wounding 2,050.

7) UK in 2005- The bombings killed 52 commuters and the four radical Islamic suicide bombers, injured 700.

GARYD,

You need to correct your information one thing and another thing please don't mix muslim religion and muslim political history wrong doings. We muslims are fully aware of our history BUT IT DOESN'T CHANGE THE TRUTH. It might suit to the non-muslim point of view but doesn't works for muslims.

Shia's sect came into proper shap way after more than 200 to 300 years of Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) demice. Based upon the political murder of his newphew and rest of the family 42 years after his demice.

Moody history says you are lying.

5 of the first seven rulers of the caliphate were murdered by other Muslims.

Muhammad had barely enough time to get toasty warm in hell before Ali was at war with the Sunni precursors over whether or not the Caliphate should or should not be hereditary. The situation has scarcely improved unless you consider an improvement to be adding several more sides to the internecine war. Islam has been at war with everyone in reach since Muhammad died.

CCNL,

Your pentagon chaotheratic or should i say chaotic mind need some med's.

If millions and millions of pilgirms from all the sects and countries are not good enough proof for your kind then dig a hole and jump.

Muslim sectarian minor differences are not LIKE christian BRUTAL AND VIOLENT ENEMOCITY FILLED HISTORY.

And don't try to paint EVERY political violence as muslims responsible.

Where ALL the routes are in MAD PENTAGON CHAOS!!

To true Christianity as opposed to the rest of the garbage out and about.

CCNL:

YOu keep on honking EVEN most of the time you don't know nothing.

Shia Sunni can't recognize each other as if they are hidding from each other as per your dumb understanding.

Well WE are not! We are living side by side.
And millions & millions of pilgirms FROM ALL SECTS AND COUNTRIES are not enough proof for your kind then go dig a hole and jump into it. Muslim sectarian minor differences are NOT brutal and violent like in YOUR christianity and ITS FILLED HISTORY.

I'm not a doctor other wise I would have prescribed you a medicine for your TWISTED HATEFUL PENTAGON CHAOTHRETIC MIND.

GaryD,

"God converts"????? And to what and why so many versions of what???

M F H sez:
When we remove God out of our culture, we have no more culture. Way to go Huck on your integrity and commitment to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."

Sorry, MFH, but our Constitution demands a higher righteousness than that offered by the gods, including that offered by the Xian version.

Our American culture is founded on the Rights of Man, with the power and authority of the government based upon the consent of the governed.

Looks like you're as anti-American as Hick.

Moody please explain to me why you think we should tolerate murderous theocrats regardless of the faith they follow.

If the only way in which you can convert people to your faith is at the point of a gun or sword your religion sucks.

And before you jump my case Concerned in my brand of Christianity which is scarcely unique to me God is the the one who converts not me or any other human.

MFH,

"Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ"?? Says who??

You might as well say "Pontius Pilate, our Great Necessary Accessory". Without old PP, there would have been no "ultimate sacrifice" i.e. your Christianity is based on the whims of a not-so-bright Roman Prefect as PP could have just as easily sent Jesus to the Roman salt mines.

When we remove God out of our culture, we have no more culture. Way to go Huck on your integrity and commitment to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Moody, Moody, Moody,

Please back up your conclusions that Sunnis and Shiites love each other. The visit to Mecca is hardly proof since there is no physical way to tell a Sunni from a Shiite. If they would ID themselves, there would be bloodshed.

Again and again, please note the following (use a translator if you do not understand English): The Sunni-Shiite Blood 800 Year-Old Blood Feud- an update,

In Saudi Arabia:

From: cnn.com in 2007

"Al-Sistani was apparently referring to Abdullah bin Jabrain, a key member of Saudi Arabia's clerical establishment, who last month joined a chorus of other senior figures from the hardline Wahhabi school of Sunni Islam that regards Shiites as infidels.

Bin Jabrain described Shiites as "the most vicious enemy of Muslims."

In Palestine:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/22/world/middleeast/22jihadists.html?ex=1311220800&en=477ff07cfa579449&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

An excerpt:

"The conflict in Lebanon has ignited a robust debate on jihadist Web sites over backing for Hezbollah, the Shiite group that set off the crisis when it seized two Israeli soldiers on July 12. The discussions reflect the widening divide between Shiite and Sunni Arabs in parts of the Middle East. Accusing Palestinians of being anti-Shiite, one Iraqi Shiite militant bitterly wrote, “It is better to concentrate one’s efforts on helping the Shiite kinfolk rather than the Sunnis.”

In Iraq:

The 24/7 Sunni-Shiite civil war- death toll, 4000 US troops and 80,625 – 88,048 Iraqi civilians

In Pakistan:

http://faroutliers.wordpress.com/2006/10/13/pakistans-transition-from-shia-to-sunni-leadership/

an excerpt:

"The coup of 1977 ended the Pakistani experiment with inclusive Muslim nationalism. Shia politicians, generals, and business leaders remained on the scene, but a steadily “Islamizing” (read “Sunnifying”) Pakistan came to look more and more like the Arab world, with Sunnis on top and Shias gradually pushed out. Pakistan in many regards captures the essence of the political challenge that the Shia have faced. The promise of the modern state has eluded them as secular nationalism has been colonized from within by Sunni hegemony."

Islam reeks of the stench of warmongering and terror. How can you stand the odor that permeates from the following acts of violence:?

This agenda continues as shown by the assassination of Bhutto, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.

And who funds these acts of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

A partial body count:

1a) Assassination of Benazir Bhutto

1b) 9/11, 3000 mostly US citizens, 1000’s injured

2) The 24/7 Sunni-Shiite centuries-old blood feud currently being carried out in Iraq, 4000 US troops and 80,625 – 88,048 Iraqi civilians iraqbodycount.org/

3) Kenya- In Nairobi, about 212 people were killed and an estimated 4000 injured; in Dar es Salaam, the attack killed at least 11 and wounded 85.[2]

4) Bali-in 2002-killing 202 people, 164 of whom were foreign nationals, and 38 Indonesian citizens. A further 209 people were injured.

5) Bali in 2005- Twenty people were killed, and 129 people were injured by three bombers who killed themselves in the attacks.

6) Spain in 2004- killing 191 people and wounding 2,050.

7) UK in 2005- The bombings killed 52 commuters and the four radical Islamic suicide bombers, injured 700.

To the great fan and admirer CCNL
of
USA masters "FATHER OF ALL DEVILS" ?
Rightly said by Iranian President before US mad bushy bush use the words axe.o.e.

AND below is the kind of LIBRATION AND FREEDOM your SECULAR, CAPTILIST, DEMOCARTE, CORPORATE MONSTOR ADMINISTRATION ESTABLISHMENT is providing to the world NOW for more than half century. YOU ARE SO PROUD OF.

GREEDY INTOLRENT ANIMALS!!!!!

CCNL & ALL the blood bath Admirers:

Now the World is fully aware of USA
1- Pentagon military organization "Chaos Theory" all over the world to support its Weapon Industry with more than 18000 fighter plans and more than 1800 war ships IN SERVICE which ALONE IS BIGGEST THEN THE REST OF THE WORLD WEAPON INDUSTRIES & ARMS IN SERVICE COLLECTIVELY including Russia, China, India, Europe, NATO etc. And responsible of supplying illegal weapons all over the world FUELING ALL KIND OF BLOOD SHED ESPECIALLY IN CONTINENT OF AFRICA & MIDDLE EAST.
2- And USA White House civilian government "Conspiracy theory" to support its advances to control world resources.
Your and your Govt. credibility SUCKS.
Liars and conspirers!!!
Your pentagon driven Media conspires and All US dumb heads do is just follow the media slogans.
For example:
YOU and your stupid Bushy Bush call Iran Exe of Evil.
If some body with the slightest sense analysis. IRAN HAS NEVER SHOWN AGGRESSION WITH ANY BODY IN LAST 250 YEARS. It was puppet Saddam of Iraq who attacked Iran on his USA bushy master administration behalf.
IRAN HARDLY HAS ANY AIR FORCE & NAVY.
But USA mad administrative dogs talk about what if Iran will acquire nuck. They haven't yet.
This reason is so STUPID. The question is....
What about Pakistan already nuclear with ability to deliver.
What about Korea WHO THREATEN US RIGHT AT ITS FACE, what about Russia.
What about Mad Israel. Which is REAL THREAT WITH NUCKS to the whole Muslim world. If one look according to the MAD USA ADMINISTRATION PROSPECTIVE!!!
IT IS AGAIN PENTAGON + WHITE HOUSE driven Chaos and Conspiracy theory by Zionist controlled Media and stupid US masses again ONLY REPEATING media words like axe of evil, shia sunni, Iran Arabs bla bla bla without putting any burdon OR strain on there brains to once try to think REALISTICLY, same way like they believed in there Tyrant Rulers when there Rulers bluntly lied about EVERY THING to attack Iraq and Afghanistan.

Sunni and Shia are living peacefully side by side ALL OVER THE WORLD.

Even in more than 8 year Iran and Iraq war raged by USA Bushy Administration Iraqi puppet. There was NO UNREST in Iraqi civil fabric. NO ONE was attacking the establishment in the Iraq; No kind of CIVIL DESTRUCION was in progress, raping, killing, bomb blasting CIVILIANS BEORE THE US ANIMALS INVASION was in progress.
It is the same 300 YEARS OLD COLONIAL divide and ruthless rule technique PRACTICED BY the US animals, kill the Shia blame the Sunni, kill the Sunni blame the Shia FUEL THE FIRE AND KILL CIVILIANS INDESCRIMINATELY in the name of collateral damage.
THE WHOLE WORLD AND MUSLIMS ARE VERY WELL AWARE OF IT.

Kuwait war was again raged by USA ANIMAL Bushy Administration Iraqi puppet.

In Bosnia and Kosovo case, YOU ANIMALS kept your CRIMNAL SILENCE FOR 2-3 YEARS until YOUR butchers were done and satisfied with there Muslim slaughter. YOU ANIMALS couldn't bear the Muslim independent state on your European Continent. Saving them after you are done and satisfied is a big B.S.!!

Is this forum very exclusive or just slow to accept posts

Is this forum very exclusive or just slow to accept posts

I REPEAT !!

If you and your KIND are not deaf OR blind??

Since millions & millions of Shia's are welcome by Saudi Sunni's every year on Haj from the very begining of time. AND millions & millions of Shia's and Sunni's perform Haj TOGETHER STANDING SHOULDER TO SHOULDER every year DISPITE OF PENTAGON DRIVEN EVIL MEDIA PROPAGANDA!!

Saudia is a land of PEACE!

Hurray! Pentagon "Chaos Theory".

Don't worry, if needed, Saudi's will use these arms on Israel. Since they are not in war with Iran or Shia's from the time Saudia came into being

Moody, Moody, Moody,

Again please note the following (use a translator if you do not understand English): The Sunni-Shiite Blood 800 Year Old Blood Feud- an update,

In Saudi Arabia:

From: cnn.com in 2007

"Al-Sistani was apparently referring to Abdullah bin Jabrain, a key member of Saudi Arabia's clerical establishment, who last month joined a chorus of other senior figures from the hardline Wahhabi school of Sunni Islam that regards Shiites as infidels.

Bin Jabrain described Shiites as "the most vicious enemy of Muslims."

In Palestine:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/22/world/middleeast/22jihadists.html?ex=1311220800&en=477ff07cfa579449&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

An excerpt:

"The conflict in Lebanon has ignited a robust debate on jihadist Web sites over backing for Hezbollah, the Shiite group that set off the crisis when it seized two Israeli soldiers on July 12. The discussions reflect the widening divide between Shiite and Sunni Arabs in parts of the Middle East. Accusing Palestinians of being anti-Shiite, one Iraqi Shiite militant bitterly wrote, “It is better to concentrate one’s efforts on helping the Shiite kinfolk rather than the Sunnis.”

In Iraq:

The 24/7 Sunni-Shiite civil war- death toll, 4000 US troops and 80,625 – 88,048 Iraqi civilians iraqbodycount.org/

In Pakistan:

http://faroutliers.wordpress.com/2006/10/13/pakistans-transition-from-shia-to-sunni-leadership/

an excerpt:

"The coup of 1977 ended the Pakistani experiment with inclusive Muslim nationalism. Shia politicians, generals, and business leaders remained on the scene, but a steadily “Islamizing” (read “Sunnifying”) Pakistan came to look more and more like the Arab world, with Sunnis on top and Shias gradually pushed out. Pakistan in many regards captures the essence of the political challenge that the Shia have faced. The promise of the modern state has eluded them as secular nationalism has been colonized from within by Sunni hegemony."

Since millions & millions of Shia's are welcome by Saudi Sunni's every year on Haj from the very begining of time. AND millions & millions of Shia's and Sunni's perform Haj TOGETHER STANDING SHOULDER TO SHOULDER every year DISPITE OF PENTAGON DRIVEN EVIL MEDIA PROPAGANDA!!

If you and your KIND are not deaf OR blind??

Saudia is a land of PEACE!

Hurray! Pentagon "Chaos Theory".

Don't worry, if needed, Saudi's will use these arms on Israel. Since they are not in war with Iran or Shia's from the time Saudia came into being!!

Hurray Pentagon "Chaos Theory".

Don't worry, if needed, Saudi's will use it on Israel.

To D:

I liked the freedom from God, and I would add freedom from drugs legal and illicit that is used to enslave us to Gods and all other oppressive cultures and behaviours.

Moody, Moody, Moody,

Again, what mosque have you been attending?

The "Father of all Ugly, Wingy, Talking, Flying Fictional Things" was Mohammed!!!

And again you seem to be in the clutches of at least one said Ugly Thingie this evening!!!!

And we just signed an agreement with the Saudis to supply them $90 billion in arms so they can protect themselves from the Shiites. Hardly indicative of Sunnis and Shiites living together peacefully.

And I do believe there is also significant Sunni and Shiite conflict in Pakistan and in Palestine.

I think that it is ridiculous that religion has even come into the picture at all. Our country lives by the policy separation of church and state. I am an active member in my church. I attend weekly and am devoted to the religion I am in, but I do not think that it is right to try to conform government ruling so that any one who is not Christian cannot or does not have the right to worship in their own way. I think that Huckabee is is out of line and out of touch. Can't he see how bad he's already doing? Why make it worse.

GaryD, GaryD, GaryD,

And how does the Christianity of your 19th century "theologian" differ from the Christianity of Jerry Falwell??? Again you make general statements with no specifics and no references.

Sunni and Shia are living peacefully side by side ALL OVER THE WORLD.

Even in more than 8 year Iran and Iraq war raged by USA Bushy Administration Iraqi puppet. There was NO UNREST in Iraqi civil fabric. NO ONE was attacking the establishment in the Iraq; No kind of CIVIL DESTRUCION was in progress, raping, killing, bomb blasting CIVILIANS BEORE THE US ANIMALS INVASION was in progress.
It is the same 300 YEARS OLD COLONIAL divide and ruthless rule technique PRACTICED BY the US animals, kill the Shia blame the Sunni, kill the Sunni blame the Shia FUEL THE FIRE AND KILL CIVILIANS INDESCRIMINATELY in the name of collateral damage.
THE WHOLE WORLD AND MUSLIMS ARE VERY WELL AWARE OF IT.

Kuwait war was again raged by USA ANIMAL Bushy Administration Iraqi puppet.

In Bosnia and Kosovo case, YOU ANIMALS kept your CRIMNAL SILENCE FOR 2-3 YEARS until YOUR butchers were done and satisfied with there Muslim slaughter. YOU ANIMALS couldn't bear the Muslim independent state on your European Continent. Saving them after you are done and satisfied is a big B.S.!!

To the great fan and admirer CCNL
of
USA masters "FATHER OF ALL DEVILS" ?
Rightly said by Iranian President before US mad bushy bush use the words axe.o.e.

AND below is the kind of LIBRATION AND FREEDOM your SECULAR, CAPTILIST, DEMOCARTE, CORPORATE MONSTOR ADMINISTRATION ESTABLISHMENT is providing to the world NOW for more than half century. YOU ARE SO PROUD OF.

GREEDY INTOLRENT ANIMALS!!!!!

CCNL & ALL the blood bath Admirers:

Now the World is fully aware of USA
1- Pentagon military organization "Chaos Theory" all over the world to support its Weapon Industry with more than 18000 fighter plans and more than 1800 war ships IN SERVICE which ALONE IS BIGGEST THEN THE REST OF THE WORLD WEAPON INDUSTRIES & ARMS IN SERVICE COLLECTIVELY including Russia, China, India, Europe, NATO etc. And responsible of supplying illegal weapons all over the world FUELING ALL KIND OF BLOOD SHED ESPECIALLY IN CONTINENT OF AFRICA & MIDDLE EAST.
2- And USA White House civilian government "Conspiracy theory" to support its advances to control world resources.
Your and your Govt. credibility SUCKS.
Liars and conspirers!!!
Your pentagon driven Media conspires and All US dumb heads do is just follow the media slogans.
For example:
YOU and your stupid Bushy Bush call Iran Exe of Evil.
If some body with the slightest sense analysis. IRAN HAS NEVER SHOWN AGGRESSION WITH ANY BODY IN LAST 250 YEARS. It was puppet Saddam of Iraq who attacked Iran on his USA bushy master administration behalf.
IRAN HARDLY HAS ANY AIR FORCE & NAVY.
But USA mad administrative dogs talk about what if Iran will acquire nuck. They haven't yet.
This reason is so STUPID. The question is....
What about Pakistan already nuclear with ability to deliver.
What about Korea WHO THREATEN US RIGHT AT ITS FACE, what about Russia.
What about Mad Israel. Which is REAL THREAT WITH NUCKS to the whole Muslim world. If one look according to the MAD USA ADMINISTRATION PROSPECTIVE!!!
IT IS AGAIN PENTAGON + WHITE HOUSE driven Chaos and Conspiracy theory by Zionist controlled Media and stupid US masses again ONLY REPEATING media words like axe of evil, shia sunni, Iran Arabs bla bla bla without putting any burdon OR strain on there brains to once try to think REALISTICLY, same way like they believed in there Tyrant Rulers when there Rulers bluntly lied about EVERY THING to attack Iraq and Afghanistan.

Your ignorance is truly appalling. If You think CH Spurgeon and Jerry Falwell had anything at all in common other than being labeled as Christians you are wallowing in a tub of ignorance that is indeed appalling.

Jist, Jist, Jist,

You have returned and now are ready to address the issues raised in some of the latter commentaries??? i.e.

"The echoes of your mind still need a bit of sound adjustment as to what you hold true:

1. the existence of "pretty and ugly flying thingies" (a required tenet of Islam)???

2. the koran being based on the hallucinations of one long dead Arab????

3. the correct side of the Sunni-Shiite 800 year old blood feud???

4. theocracies, good or bad???

5. the sins of being Islamic??? (false "profits", greed, anger, lust, polygamy, warmongering, suicide)??

6. Islamic scribes plagiarizing the codes, passages and ways of the ancients even the anti-female passages of "Prude Paul"?????

And please, please, no obfuscating !!!!

P.S. And no commentary on Jay Smith's conclusions about the koran???"

GaryD, GaryD, GaryD,

How goes the bible thumping?

With respect to Bishop Wright, a recognized historical Jesus exegete, I said his conclusions were clouded by the being a bishop in the church that the womanizing Henry VIII founded and the bishop's allegiance to said church.

Timothy Johnson, another recognized historical Jesus exegete, does not have that problem. Ditto for Father Raymond Brown. See the appendices in his 823 page book, An Introduction to the New Testatment for a critique of the Jesus Seminarians. The problem with both of these scholars is that they fail to prove that the attestation and stratum analysis methods used by the Jesus Seminarians is flawed.

With respect to your 19th century "theologian":

"With no formal theological training, British Baptist preacher Charles Haddon Spurgeon (1834 - 1892) became the most popular minister of the nineteenth century, regularly attracting crowds of 6,000 each Sunday to his London - based Metropolitan Tabernacle church."

No I have not read of any of his "theology" because it would be simply rereading the material available from the likes of Jerry Falwell and other bible thumpers.

Shyrle it was stood on it's head by courts who decided that religion has no place in Public life which is completely contrary to the intent of the founders for every religious view should have public representation.

So you do then believe that opposition to the Jesus seminarians exists but you don't trust it because of Henry the VIII or because its supporters aren't paupers.

Ever read Halley's hand book of the Bible? Or Calvin? or Luther? Or any of the great 19th century theologians eg Spurgeon?

Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia

Hello, hello!

A lot of thumping and huffing and puffing going on in this thread on Huckabee and the Holy Books.

So, you are originally from Kerala. Many PIOs in Malaysia were from Kerala and Tamil Naidu. You will love our Kerala and Tamil Naidu influenced hot and spicy and coconut milk laced curries.

Yes, Malaysian Malay food is similar to Indonesian food, being fundamentally of the same ethnic stock. But Malaysian food has developed into a distinctive pan-Asian cuisine with dollops of Indian, Chinese, Malay, Thai, Indonchinese and Burmese cuisines in the culinary mix of any given dish.

Yes, eating out is a favourite Malaysian pastime, and there are more food places that are open 24/7 than in Sydney to cater to Malaysians' round the clock indulgence for food.

And yes, the variety of food in Sydney, particular European, is more than in Kuala Lumpur. I must say that among the Pacific Rim cities, Sydney is the best city, better than San Francisco, for sheer variety and diversity of Asian and European food. You got our laksa and satay too!

Best regards
Julia

GaryD,

You apparently did not read the reference provided about historical Jesus scholars whose works I have perused:

Included are Bishop NT Wright, an On Faith panelist and also Luke Timothy Johnson both are orthodox Christian historical Jesus scholars.

e.g.

Nicholas Thomas Wright is Anglican Bishop of Durham, England. The "On Faith" panelist taught New Testament studies for 20 years at Cambridge, McGill and Oxford Universities before becoming Dean of Lichfeld in 1994. He was named Canon Theologian of Westminster Abbey in 2000, and consecrated bishop in 2003. He has written hundreds of articles and more than 40 books, including Judas and the Gospel of Jesus (2006) and Evil and the Justice of God (2006). He has served as Visiting Professor at numerous institutions including Harvard Divinity School, Gregorian University in Rome and the Hebrew University in Jerusalem. Dr Wright holds four degrees, including a divinity doctorate from Oxford University, and honorary degrees from several universities and colleges.

I have a problem with Bishop Wright's studies for two reasons, his affiliation with the church founded by the womanizing Henry VIII and also his economically driven status as a bishop in said church.

What drives this idea adding God's standards to the Constitution? Are we trying to say to the Islamic states that God is on our side, not yours? Are we looking for moral high ground?

In the Gospels of Matthew AND Mark AND Luke, Christ says [effectively] "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and render unto God what is God's."

Christ Himself thereby endorses the separation of church and state.

We Christians need to get right with Christ. The U.S. Constitution's job is not to reflect Christ (or reject Christ), but to provide a secular civil society in which Christians can get right with Christ, Muslims with Allah, Jews with Yahweh, followers of Eastern and other faiths as appropriate, and where athiests and others can live their values - all in peace and relative harmony subject to the civil law provided mainly by majoritarian consent.

I don't see how that requires any amendments to the existing Constitution, which offers clear protections not only to the religious majority but to religious minorities and even the nonreligious and unbeliever.

How can this not be obvious?

Whatever happened to the so-called "separation of church and state", huh?

God has spoken to me. He said: remove all that nonsense about the separation between church and state. Make it illegal to practice any religion other than Christianity. While we are about it He suggests we also remove all that pesky stuff about freedom of the individual, freedom of speech, freedom of assembly. In fact He has said we should remove any mention of freedom, particularly where issues concerning women are concerned.

What a nightmare it is when politicians start introducing religion into secular matters. The Founding Fathers understood religious zealotry and protected the constitution accordingly. Thank heavens MH is not going to get anywhere near the presidency or the constitution.

So you admit then that your knowlege of the Bible is almost entirely limited to the Jesus Seminarians to the point you won't even admit other sources exist.

Candidate Ron Paul put it better than I could when he quoted Sinclair Lewis, from his novel, "It Can't Happen Here": When Facism comes to America, it will come wrapped in the Flag and carrying a Cross."
I do not suggest (nor suspect) that Huckabee is a Facist, but all this emphasis on religion: any religion: as a necessity for elective office in the United States is completely unAmerican: and potentially fatal for our Country.
Actually, George W. Bush has already done both (wrapped himself in the Flag while waving the Cross) all the while subverting our Constitution and grapping and abusing powers never granted in the Constitution.

Candidate Ron Paul put it better than I could when he quoted Sinclair Lewis, from his novel, "It Can't Happen Here": When Facism comes to America, it will come wrapped in the Flag and carrying a Cross."
I do not suggest (nor suspect) that Huckabee is a Facist, but all this emphasis on religion: any religion: as a necessity for elective office in the United States is completely unAmerican: and potentially fatal for our Country.
Actually, George W. Bush has already done both (wrapped himself in the Flag while waving the Cross) all the while subverting our Constitution and grapping and abusing powers never granted in the Constitution.

Inasmuch as there is no God, I wonder how that would work.

Inasmuch as there is not God, I wonder how that would work.

GaryB, GaryB, GaryB,

You make statements but never back them up with references from studies and/or from experts.

To get you started in the area of historical Jesus expertise, see the information posted at
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

That would be a vote for the quintessental equivalent of the Islamic fundementalist intolerant, violent and political morass in this country. Could not be more un-American. Borders on treasonous.

Levent, Levent, Levent,

Again, you continue to hallucinate and ramble as apparently hallucinations and talk without substantiation are common in the Turkish world??? What is driving yours? Hmmm, lack of sleep or hashish or some other drug or a combination? Have you met Mohammed in your "drug dreams" as he likewise suffered from significant hallucinations and ramblings????

I am not sure what changes Huckabee is thinking about making but I doubt it would every happen. I am assuming Huckabee is talking about teaching Christianity in public schools, banning abortion, and banning gay marriage. Mr. Huckabee should just be glad he lives in a country where he can practice his religon and speak his views without changing it so people can only practice his view of God. It is amazing the Republicans can make statements like this and a then get huge amount of votes from people who really don't benefit at all from the economic and military policies of the party.

We already abolished slavery and the Old Testament would over-ride that. For that reason I think there might be some concern (major tongue-in-cheek) on that undertaking of re-writing the Constitution.

i just shall ask this. is Iran kept in electromagnetics though they are busy in radioactive energy and though they threaten Israel?

Quran is not a book of Turks! Persians interpreted Quran the way they know. Quran is a book respected. Bible is also a Home Book here.

now i shall ask this again. why is Iran this much free? it is not a solution to incline Turkish government to have radioactive energy to have a balance. there is another plan behind this, and Iran is already happy to involve with.

i sometimes am jealous of Richard Gere. i could be standing up on my neck my legs straight up as "candle light" in yoga position that in childhood i was easily standing instinctively! i am busy with these religions and politics etc for i am in Anatolia at this age!

why did USA blame Turks for World Trade Center? why did President Bush rush against Turkey? where is Russia? where is Israel? where is Queen of United Kingdom? who are Turks? who are Persians? where is Sparta?

Israel wants this Anatolia for jewish land. United Kingdom wants this Anatolia for Celtic land. USA wants this land for Boron land. and God knows Vatican wants for what! when shall you heal Iran and Russia? how did President of USA go to fishing with Putin? where is the gold worth 160 G USD on the basement of World Trade Towers?!

why do every one rush against Anatolia? WE HAVE A LIFE HERE! a life that you have too!

is there any other country where mobile phone companies break each other? Turk Telekom and Avea break Vodafone and Avea. is there any other country where religious peaople are traced? is there any other country where cable broadcast were aborted and people are traced through cable network?

is there any other mobile phone company that belongs to russians and Microsoft where hens and eggs are on the front page of websites? and there are animated movies where children and humans fight against green eggs and hens that have captured brains?

so may i learn why it is Turkey Anatolia that is kept in electromagnetics? why is it Turkey Anatolia that computers and mobile phones are sold?

may i learn why it is Turkey Anatolia that is kept busy with trade and banks and credit cards? is there any programme on Iran or on any other country that are diagnosed and directed and listened to by electromagnetic means?

is there any other country that are stopped by accidents by mobile phones? why has there not been any accident in other countries where scientists died where electromagnetics applied?

now Iran announced that they have produced in centrufuge centers 300 tons of UF6 "hexa florid" gas to be used in Uranium enrichment and has transferred to Russian Nuclear Plant.

where is the cloroflorocarbon gases agreement to protect ozone layer? Russia must stop Iran first. it is not Iran that runs on this path. it is Russia and USA must talk to Russia for Iran. so Concerned Christian Now Liberated, as you see Iran do not smoke the way you remember.

Governor Huckabee's predicate is incorrect: Our nation is already ruled by our Gods' commands. Our Gods are our Stomachs and our Genitals, and their common will is always heeded: "Gratify me!"

Saints, Apostels, Masters , Scholars in Anatolia have passed from EAst to West and have seated on a path where Boron minerals have been. some say Silk Road for this, i think.

in Kutahya is the boron mineral too. last night there has been a train accident in Kutahya in West of Anatolia. i really worry how the driver happened to keep the velocity of the train that much in a frozen snowy railway.

and i can talk about boron mineral i am on in this city that in literature, boron is known with Saba of Solomon, Horse of Ahmet Muhammed, Flying Carpet, Throne of Metatron, Goldenness of a MAn, Stone of Philosophy, Stair of a Man.

in Northern Literature and everywhere on Earth, this is graceful mastery in unity of man. boron mineral gives hydrogen atoms that Talmud Engineers developed Magnetic Resonance Imaging and Electromagnetics to have humans aligned.

still there are literatures who employ Lamp of Alaaddin. it is oil rubbed to heat to give light and scent. "oil" is for virtues and "lamp" is for body. and the main point in the lamp is not the creature to make wishes come true, but it is the spirit of a person that in unity all wishes come true. this is a dropped version to explain what a man can do in high spiritual and virtues in wonders and miracles.

i am just explaining to have a breath in this land that i have for 35 years been on without a passport. and for Ahmet (Muhammed) you have better employ a different dictionary, because it was Golden Age in Arabics in Ahmet Muhammed's time in literature. Iran shall be healed in literature, if Russia permits.

in Canada, Armenian case shall be a lecture at high schools.

at Nevsehir Cappadocia University, Armenian and Hebrew languages departments shall be on this term.

Charlize Theron named Budapest for Capital of Turkey, and economist Stephen Roach named the Prime Minister of Hungary for Turkish colleague.

then, this is not a fault, this is a family relation. then Concerned Christian Now Liberated, Turkey is not the way you know with Persia.

When there is doubt better to withhold any firm convictions until there is proof. Religion is a belief system in a greater power. Surely if there was a greater power and it knew our nature would not the greater power know how to best make us understand its presence? Why so much confusion? Because religion is a man made concept that caters to the sect or tribe that created it. Huckabee would like the Constitution to reflect HIS religious view of the world. That is the problem and there is no way to accommodate him without causing resentment by others who do not share his religious view. Can we please drop the pretense that there is any document that has the revealed word of God and just acknowledge that we do not know? Without a divine source to point to as our reference maybe we would not be so quick make a judgment about how people are intended to live and be governed.

Yes Concerned I am quite familiar with their credentials. The people on the opposite side outnumber Borg, Crossan et al a hundred to one and have as good as or better credentials. Thank you I'll stick with the majority view on this one.

Levent, Levent, Levent,

Apparently hallucinations are still common in the Turkish world. What is driving yours? Hmmm, lack of sleep or hashish or a combination? Have you met Mohammed in your "drug dreams" as he likewise suffered from significant hallucinations.

if you consider Allah in Quran, in Arabic, in Hebrew, Allah is an archangel like Raphael. in Quran, there are souls, elements of unity named as "Kalu Bela".

kalu : they said that
bela: we are sure and in (acceptance and approval)

creator god is a product of zoroastorianism
and zoroastorianism is a product of personality and soul in body, to take them together and education. zoroastorianism is to be considered as a pattern and map. there is not a creator god. creator god is a dropped version of unity, like hanging handcutting shooting and throwing stones.

bodies are taken, bodies are left. but who are in bodies come and go. similar to Greek Theater and Italian Philosophy. USA, you have better learn the language of Hollywood, of Israel and of St Germain too.

i did not watch a movie from USA which has not an element of ISrael and of St Germain. did you watch The Legend of 1900? did you watch Winnie the Pooh? any movie of Walt Disney?

what is the language on the tobacco that you smoke? what is the language on Chess? not Chinese Persian or Russian chess, i speak about the english chess, knights rooks priests frogs queen and king. now that you have wonder in your heart and brain.

at least while you play Knight oNline, you shall have a speech. this is the subject of a software. make sure that Hillary Clinton has setup an Optic Character Recognition software and has a scanner plugged in.

what is the language on the instruments you play, in Rap Hip Hop Classics or Jazz!? what is the language on mathematics and NASA and space center?

what is the language on the medallions that Africans put around their necks?

do you want secularism?
do you know what flows under secularism?

what is the language of technology? where did this dictionary of technology come from? you are already religious on technology somewhat. what is the language of Bill Gates? what is the language of your economy? what is the language on Mobile Phones?

you are not simple, USA. your life is not that simple. do you think Bible Quran Toalmud are in Churches Mosques and Sinagogs, in the mouths of priests?

what is the language on the milk you drink? what is the language on the genetics that your biology based on that began on Beans?

what shall USA be a country of ?
this is what i ask to you, USA.

what shall USA be a country of?
what shall you deliver to the Earth?

peace? frankness? unknown usage of languages?
against Vatican and Mexico? of Israel?

of Greece and Britain? of Armenia and Russia?

what shall you deliver from the unity of humanity on Earth? what do tyou have in your genetics?

just do not cheat someone else, just sit and come to unity in your soul and presence. the whole world needs this.

Hillary Clinton, of GEorge Bush of Skull and Bones, of Bill Clinton are together.

Barack Obama in Chicago, is in other relations too. where is frankness?! where is respect? if in USA is St Germain, where is love and kindness?

if Armenians are known with St GErmain and Shakespeare, where is St GErmain's love and kindness?

http://www.crystalinks.com/elmorya.html

George Williams Bush of Great White Brotherhood
knows better about

I AM Foundation of IMF and World Bank
and Mt Shasta of California

there must be a unity. there must be a unity.
we all have one body structure on Earth

there must be a unity and alliance.

Concerned Christian now Liberated

when you agree that you have a rich heart and a vital gear on your heart, then you shall have a main stream that you may talk with on.

Ireland, Churchill owes you, not me or somebody else in Anatolia
who destroyed World Trade Towers of Churchill's Family owe to you

i dont owe to Ireland, this land belongs to Vatican
Vatican left this land to Ataturk after the world war and Inonu gave it to Churchill

i want Denmark Headscarf to bring two sides together in carpentary
i want French Turban of snails and logaritm for astronomy

i want peace, in the Knight Online game of South Korea of Divine Amethyst
of St GErmain of Israel, there is a family El Moradian, combination of El Moria
and Genova Red Cross, do you have any idea about them?

thou shall not break the crystal in the castle.
and the other tuerokeans are so familiar to my ear.

who is known with Yom Kippur owe to you Ireland
St GErmain's Incarnations are Andrea Doria, Christropher Colombus, MArk Twain etc.
do you know El Moria? St GErmain is known with Death of Bones and Skull too

some know him with Atlanta and some with Ethopia, with Enoch too.

internet shall have a peace, the internet which is based on St Francis and CISCO
that Pope Benedictus loves to visit websites and chats on Messenger.

and it shall be a mean of education, not of languageless illiteracy.
because it has a language already, of peace and frankness.

do you know the language of Venice and Genova,
jewish hebrew english arabic language. the abuse on them shall come to an end.

in USA, St Germain is a man of saw, like Poland, of mechanics and knives
because he is a german, and he is known with germen literature and KArl MArx and communism too.

this is a gift to Mike Huckabee. to have a wider vision on Earth in his presidency.

Moody, Moody, Moody,

What mosque have you been attending?

The "Father of all Ugly, Wingy, Talking, Flying Fictional Things" was Mohammed!!!

And you seem to be in the clutches of at least one said Ugly Thingie i.e Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, this evening!!!!

USA masters FATHER OF ALL DEVILS ?
Rightly said by Iranian President before US mad bushy bush use the words axe.o.e.

Levent Alkan ,

Richard Gere lives in a fantasy world.

Unfortunately, Muslim's like OBL do not, nor do we so it all comes down to the following famous quote:

"No one is safe until the koran is "Deflawed"!!!!

Concerned The Christian Now Liberated

could you calm down please? at least Richard Gere is calm in such cases you are talking about.

i want health and peace of grandfather
i dont want my grandmother to cheat my grandfather

i do not want United Kingdom to cheat Vatican

i do not want agreements against Vatican where Prime Minister of United Kingdom accepted Catholics
i do not want agreements against Vatican though Orthodox Church had come together with Vatican.

where is frankness then?

i do not want Koc Family to have a say here in Anatolia.
they make agreement with Israel, Orthodox Church and United Kingdom

i do not want someone else to have a say over me.
i do not want electromagnetics applied for criminal cases in countries where families and beliefs are above justice.

and our President is together with Vatican, he hugged with Ambassador of Vatican
and our Prime Minister is in relation with Germany and Russia

there are cases where you cannot change genetics.

Ilhan Ersahin is the grandson of the uncle of my mother in Izmir, Abidin Ersahin.
he is the son of the Swedish Bride Bibi Aunt (Fatima) i had talked about in Post Global.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sq61ErX_rJ8

Moody, Moody, Moody,

What mosque have you been attending?

The "Father of all Ugly, Wingy, Talking, Flying Fictional Things" was Mohammed!!!

And you seem to be in the clutches of at least one said Ugly Thingie this evening!!!!

George W. Bush and Colin Powell are sitting in a bar. A guy walks in and asks the barman, “Isn`t that Bush and Powell sitting over there?”
The barman says, “Yep, that`s them.”
So the guy walks over and says, “Wow, this is a real honor. What are you guys doing in here?”
Bush says, “We`re planning World War III”.
And the guy says, “Really? What`s going to happen?”
Bush says, “Well, we`re going to kill 140 million Iraqis and one intelligent blonde.
The guy exclaimed, “Intelligent blonde!! Why kill a blonde?”
Bush turns to Powell, punches him on the shoulder and says, “See, smart ass?! I told you no one would worry about the 140 million Iraqis!”

Now who is the FATHER OF ALL DEVILS ?
Rightly said by Iranian President before US mad bushy bush use the words axe.o.e.

Moody, Moody, Moody,

I thought Muslims were not allowed to drink!!!! Or is it that nasty Three B Syndrome acting up again? Or maybe a combination??

CCNL,
Now the World is fully aware of USA
1- Pentagon military organization "Chaos Theory" all over the world to support its Weapon Industry with more than 18000 fighter plans and more than 1800 war ships IN SERVICE which ALONE IS BIGGEST THEN THE REST OF THE WORLD WEAPON INDUSTRIES & ARMS IN SERVICE COLLECTIVELY including Russia, China, India, Europe, NATO etc. And responsible of supplying illegal weapons all over the world FUELING ALL KIND OF BLOOD SHED ESPECIALLY IN CONTINENT OF AFRICA & MIDDLE EAST.
2- And USA White House civilian government "Conspiracy theory" to support its advances to control world resources.
Your and your Govt. credibility SUCKS.
Liars and conspirers!!!
Your pentagon driven Media conspires and All US dumb heads do is just follow the media slogans.
For example:
YOU and your stupid Bushy Bush call Iran Exe of Evil.
If some body with the slightest sense analysis. IRAN HAS NEVER SHOWN AGGRESSION WITH ANY BODY IN LAST 250 YEARS. It was puppet Saddam of Iraq who attacked Iran on his USA bushy master administration behalf.
IRAN HARDLY HAS ANY AIR FORCE & NAVY.
But USA mad administrative dogs talk about what if Iran will acquire nuck. They haven't yet.
This reason is so STUPID. The question is....
What about Pakistan already nuclear with ability to deliver.
What about Korea WHO THREATEN US RIGHT AT ITS FACE, what about Russia.
What about Mad Israel. Which is REAL THREAT WITH NUCKS to the whole Muslim world. If one look according to the MAD USA ADMINISTRATION PROSPECTIVE!!!
IT IS AGAIN PENTAGON + WHITE HOUSE driven Chaos and Conspiracy theory by Zionist controlled Media and stupid US masses again ONLY REPEATING media words like axe of evil, shia sunni, Iran Arabs bla bla bla without putting any burdon OR strain on there brains to once try to think REALISTICLY, same way like they believed in there Tyrant Rulers when there Rulers bluntly lied about EVERY THING to attack Iraq and Afghanistan.

AND this is the kind of LIBRATION AND FREEDOM your SECULAR, CAPTILIST, DEMOCARTE, CORPORATE MONSTOR ADMINISTRATION ESTABLISHMENT is providing to the world NOW for more than half century. YOU ARE SO PROUD OF.

GREEDY INTOLRENT ANIMALS!!!!!

Anon,

Please Google your sources about pastors in "cahoots" with the government.

http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/hoax/weblog/comments/4167/

GaryD,

Professor JD Crossan's credentials:

Irish-born John Dominic Crossan is a professor emeritus in the religious studies department at DePaul University in Chicago. Between 1950 and 1969, he was a member of a 13th-century Roman Catholic religious order, the Servites, and remained an ordained priest from 1957 to 1969.

He has delivered lectures to secular and lay audiences from Scandinavia to Australia to Japan to South Africa. The On Faith panelist has authored 23 books and his writings have been translated into 11 languages. His work focuses on the historical Jesus, earliest Christianity and the historical Paul. Core titles include “The Historical Jesus,” “The Birth of Christianity” and “In Search of Paul,” co-written with archaeologist Jonathan L. Reed. Dr. Crossan’s next book, “God & Empire: Jesus Against Rome Then and Now,” is scheduled for publication in February. The professor earned a doctor of divinity degree at St. Patrick’s College in Maynooth, Ireland and a humanities doctorate at Stetson University in Florida. The American Academy of Religion and DePaul and Stetson universities have recognized him with awards for scholarly excellence. His Web site is www.johndominiccrossan.com.

Professor Marcus Borg's credentials:

Marcus Borg is Hundere Distinguished Professor of Religion and Culture at Oregon State University. He has written eleven books, including Meeting Jesus Again for the First Time, the best-selling book by a contemporary Jesus scholar; The God We Never Knew, named as one of "ten best books in religion for 1997; The Meaning of Jesus: Two Visions (with N. T. Wright); and Reading the Bible Again for the First Time, another best-seller.

He has been national chair of the Historical Jesus Section of the Society of Biblical Literature, co-chair of its International New Testament Program Committee, and president of the Anglican Association of Biblical Scholars. His books have been translated into seven languages, and he has lectured widely throughout North America, including the Chautauqua and Smithsonian Institutions, and overseas (England, Austria, Germany, Belgium, Hungary, Israel, and South Africa).

Professor Paula Fredriksen's credentials:

Paula Fredriksen is the Aurelio Professor of Scripture at Boston University. The "On Faith" panelist previously held teaching positions at the University of Pittsburgh, University of California -- Berkeley, Stanford and Princeton. She has also taught at Hebrew University in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv University. Fredriksen earned her doctorate in the history of religions (ancient Christianity, Graeco-Roman religions) at Princeton, writing her dissertation on "Augustine's Early Interpretations of Paul."

She has published widely on the social and intellectual history of ancient Christianity from the late Second Temple period to the fall of the Roman Empire in the West. Her books include From Jesus to Christ: The Origins of the New Testament Images of Jesus (1988 and 2000), for which she won the 1988 Yale Press Governors' Award for Best Book, and Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews: A Jewish Life and the Emergence of Christianity (1999), for which she won a National Jewish Book Award. Together with Adele Reinhartz, she edited and contributed to Jesus, Judaism, and Christian Anti-Judaism: Reading the New Testament After the Holocaust (2002). She also edited and contributed to On 'The Passion of the Christ' (2005), a collection of essays about Mel Gibson's controversial film. Her latest book, Augustine and the Jews, is set for publication in 2007."

GaryB's credentials:

Bible thumper????

Hi Jihadist (Julia) from Malaysia!

Thank you for your greetings.

Sydneysiders vote for Sydney as the most beautiful place on earth. Melbourne is supposed to be more sophisticated. So I understand your confusion with no personal attachments to either city.

Having spent the first eight years of my life in two tiny villages in Kerala, I was desperate for bigger places, although I still love the lush green of Kerala. I loved Bangalore where I finished my schooling. I got attached to Chennai (then known as Madras) where I completed Uni. But when I visited Mumbai (then known as Bombay) I realised it was too much of a good thing. The crowds simply suffocated me; I didn't manage to get off the train on time and had to get off at the next station because I couldn't push my way to the entrance on time.

BTW, I'm an Indian citizen too, so I am technically more than a PIO, even though I left India a little over twenty years ago.

I saw a TV program about Indonesian food and was completely surprised at how similar to my favourite food in Kerala it is! Malayasia I am told has a great variety of food and eating out is one of their favourite passtimes. But of course not even Malayasia could beat Sydney in its variety of food! ;)

Best wishes
Soja

Huckabee is, of course, right. ALL laws must be in conformity to God's Law --- the laws of the God of the Bible, the only true God there is. Laws that contradict God's Law are NO LAW --- that's the Bible, St. Augustine, Aquinas, Blackstone and Martin Luther King, Jr (see his "Letter From A Birmingham, among others.
John Lofton, Editor, TheAmericanView.com

Recovering Republican

JLof@aol.com

I did a little research on the Human Life Amendment and other attempts to amend the Constitution to ban abortion. Did you know that there have been seven bills submitted since 1973 for that purpose? There were a few in 1973-75 timeframe, then a couple in the 1980's. The most recent was sponsored by Rep. Ron Paul.

http://www.nchla.org/datasource/idocuments/HLAhghlts.pdf

So, even with an anti-choice Congress and President, the bill never made it out of committee. Many Congress-critters might be "pro-life", but they really balk at amending the Constitution.

FYI

Shocking KSLA 12 news report confirms story that broke last year, Pastors to cite Romans 13 as reason for public to obey government orders, relinquish guns and be taken to camps during state of emergency

Thursday, August 16, 2007

A shocking KSLA news report has confirmed the story that first broke last year, that Clergy Response Teams are being trained by the federal government to "quell dissent" and pacify citizens to obey the government in the event of a declaration of martial law.

In May 2006, the existence of a nationwide FEMA program which is training Pastors and other religious representatives to become secret police enforcers who teach their congregations to "obey the government" in preparation for the implementation of martial law, property and firearm seizures, mass vaccination programs and forced relocation was exposed.

A whistleblower who was secretly enrolled into the program revealed that the feds were clandestinely recruiting religious leaders to help implement Homeland Security directives in anticipation of a potential bio-terrorist attack, any natural disaster or a nationally declared emergency.

The first directive was for Pastors to preach to their congregations Romans 13, the often taken out of context bible passage that was used by Godwin's Law to hoodwink Christians into supporting him, in order to teach them to "obey the government" when martial law is declared.

It was related to the Pastors that quarantines, martial law and forced relocation were a problem for state authorities when enforcing federal mandates due to the "cowboy mentality" of citizens standing up for their property and second amendment rights as well as farmers defending their crops and livestock from seizure.

It was stressed that the Pastors needed to preach subservience to the authorities ahead of time in preparation for the round-ups and to make it clear to the congregation that "this is for their own good."

Pastors were told that they would be backed up by law enforcement in controlling uncooperative individuals and that they would even lead SWAT teams in attempting to quell resistance.

Though some doubted the accuracy of this report at the time due to its fundamentally disturbing implications, the story has now been confirmed by a KSLA 12 news report, in which participating clergy and officials admit to the existence of the program.

The report entertains the scenario of martial law as depicted in the movie The Siege and states that "quelling dissent would be critical."

Dr. Durell Tuberville serves as chaplain for the Shreveport Fire Department and the Caddo Sheriff's Office. Tuberville said of the clergy team's mission, "the primary thing that we say to anybody is, 'let's cooperate and get this thing over with and then we'll settle the differences once the crisis is over.'"

Such clergy response teams would walk a tight-rope during martial law between the demands of the government on the one side, versus the wishes of the public on the other. "In a lot of cases, these clergy would already be known in the neighborhoods in which they're helping to diffuse that situation," assured Sandy Davis. He serves as the director of the Caddo-Bossier Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness.

For the clergy team, one of the biggest tools that they will have in helping calm the public down or to obey the law is the Bible itself, specifically Romans 13. Dr. Tuberville elaborated, "because the government's established by the Lord, you know. And, that's what we believe in the Christian faith. That's what's stated in the scripture."

Screenshot from the KSLA 12 news article that accompanies the video report (http://www.ksla.com/Global/story.asp?S=6937987).

So there you have it - Homeland Security are working with local police departments and religious leaders to prepare for the declaration of martial law and in particular developing techniques they will employ during the crisis to "quell dissent."

Phony Christian leaders are brainwashing their congregations to accept the premise that the totalitarian police state is "of the Lord" and that they should get on their knees and lick jackboots while the round-ups take place as citizens are processed into quarantine zones and detention camps.

The precedent for mass gun confiscation and martial law in times of a real or manufactured emergency was set during Hurricane Katrina, when police and National Guard patrols forced home owners - even in areas unaffected by the hurricane - to hand over their legally owned firearms at gunpoint.

This is a clear precursor for the imminent declaration of a state of emergency, a scenario that President Bush codified in his recent Presidential Decision Directive of May 9th, which states in the event of a "catastrophic event" the President can take total control over the government and the country, bypassing all other levels of government at the state, federal, local, territorial and tribal levels, and thus ensuring total unprecedented dictatorial power.

The scope of the program is so secretive that even Homeland Security Committee member and Congressman Peter DeFazio was denied access to view the classified portion of the documents.

-----------------------------

Understanding Romans 13:1-7

What was Apostle Paul really saying? The best way to bring understanding on Romans 13 is to ask, "Who was apostle Paul writing to at Rome?" The answer is found at Romans 1:7: Paul was writing to all those in Rome who are "beloved of God, called to be saints." He was not writing to the general population at Rome. He was specifically addressing the "called out ones," the Body of Christ.

If apostle Paul was advocating obedience to secular authorities, then Caesar would have no cause against him. Why would Caesar have Paul beheaded if he was promoting obedience to Rome?

The truth is that Apostle Paul was beheaded for promoting a rival government known as the Kingdom of God or the Kingdom of Heaven. Already this new government was turning the world upside down. Caesar had Paul killed to help stop this threat to Rome's power.

If Romans 13 does not mean "obey the State," what does it mean? Romans 13 means, "Remember them which have the rule over you," as you will also find at Hebrews 13:7. Since Paul was addressing the saints at Rome, it is logical that he would instruct them to submit to those God had set up to look after their souls. It was a reminder to newly formed church to be obedient to the authorities God had placed over His people. For they were truly the "ministers of God to thee for good." Unlike worldly rulers, the early church leaders that were taught personally by Christ, were not a terror to good works but to the evil. Therefore, "do that which is good and thou shalt have praise of the same."

"To the law and to the testimony; if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." Isaiah 8:20.

"Who are the Higher Authorities"? According to the scripture, Jesus is the Highest Authority. He is "far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come." (See Ephesians 1:20-21)

Those who have set up secular "governments" are not the Higher Authorities. We owe them no allegiance when they have a conflict with the Word and Law of God. "They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not." Hosea 8:4

In 1 Peter 2:13, we are instructed to "Submit to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake". This does not mean "Obey all the Roman statutes." Otherwise Peter is contradicting his actions in Acts 5:29 when Peter and some of the apostles were examined by the council. They were asked why they disobeyed the command not to teach Jesus, Peter answered, "We ought to obey God rather than men." When there is a conflict between men's laws and God's law, "We ought to obey God rather than men", period. God, as Creator, and His law are the highest authority.

As "strangers and pilgrims," we have been given truth and released from the heavy burdens of the unsound, defective secular laws that the lawmakers themselves do not obey when it is not convenient for them to do so. But we do not flaunt that liberty. Instead, we lead quiet, godly lives, giving them no just cause to speak or act against us.

Remember, the Apostles were teaching the Kingdom of God as directly taught them by Christ. They were not telling believers to obey secular forces when these secular forces are in conflict with the unpolluted law of God and teaching/testimony of Jesus Christ.

John 5:39 "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Test the doctrines you have been taught...do as the Bereans did in Acts 17:10-11 - they "searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so." Truth is the issue.

"Good man. Has principles."
_____

OK. The Ayatollah Khomeini had principles.

"Good man. Has principles."
_____

OK. The Ayatollah Khomeini had principles.

Mr Huckabee has been roundly trounced.

Hope he isn't running in the Washington Post primary.

If he had more of the highly developed cynicism and pandering slant of Bush/Rove, he might have some success with the kinds of statement we are discussing here.

But I think he has the fatal flaw of actually truly believing what he says, and thinking he can say what he actually believes in a political campaign without spinning it in just the right way

Good man. Has principles. Very limited perspective.

If the US were to elect a President who has announced that he didnt believe in Evolution, we would be on an Express Trip to the Dustbin of History (with apologies to my friend Ronald Reagan).

"we need . . . to amend the Constitution so it's in God's standards rather than try to change God's standards so it lines up with some contemporary view."
_____

Which god? In the span of human history, there have been thousands of religions, with tens of thousands of gods -- most of them immortal.

Which god? Huckabee's god? Why that one? Because Huckabee says so? So what?

The empirical evidence supporting each or any of them is identical. Let Huckabee explain why his god's standards are any better and/or worse than any other god's, and we got us a discussion. Maybe.

Huckabee says we need to amend the Constitution so that it reflects God's standards rather than try to change God's standards to reflect the changing times.

A worthwhile position to contemplate. Unfortunately a position which is on the losing side of history unless we more and more have messianic hopes...

The reasons are obvious. Even by the time of Maimonides (middle ages) there was a recognition that the religious view depends on the prophetic method of thought (as distinguished from the artistic, scientific, etc.) and that the prophetic method of thought has been waning, not producing individuals in a series such as the prophets of the old testament, etc.

Maimonides in his "guide of the perplexed" is in something of the Huckabee position (Maimonides is eager to hold on to the supremecy of Moses--distinguish Moses from the other prophets--as well as hold out hope for the messiah) but Maimonides unlike Huckabee was capable of making a startling analysis of the nature of prophecy which taken to its logical conclusion is a position of rationality and insight into the workings of inspiration which defeats "wild and woolly" prophecies of the past and in fact ushers in an advanced and scientific methodology of prophecy.

What I am saying in short is that we have been increasing our understanding of the human mind and the nature of inspiration and this distances us from the past more and more each day. There quite simply are no more prophets in the old sense and every major religion suffers from this. Every major religion is forced to hold onto figures of the past in the face of change--in the face of the changing nature of prophecy, the changing nature of human increases in foresight.

Today in our society--even less advanced societies--we routinely employ teams of people to bring us views from distant places and in fact communications gives us an exploded and prophetic insight which would be utterly impossible in the past. We have division of labor and work together in piecing together a much larger view than any society of the past, let alone any individual of the past.

The standards of God cannot help but change with the changing times, for we each through education and increased understanding of the mind are becoming more and prophetic and working together we are becoming the prophetic species (blessed with formidable foresight). But of course this threatens religion which is tied to a particular understanding of prophecy--the prophets of the past. Quite simply the major religions brook no improvement on the method of prophecy and in fact are against the old prophetic methods themselves when we reflect that even the most religious people have no problem if a psychiatrist medicates someone who hears voices or has visions.

We quite simply are becoming more and more rational about prophecy and this leaves the major religions with nothing more than an insistence on the truth of prophets of the past and increasingly messianic hopes--for really at bottom an insistence on the messiah is the only thing which survives from traditional religion when prophecy as in the past becomes impossible in modern society.

For this reason I really have no fear of the United States Constitution being turned into "God's standards" as Huckabee desires. The standards have changed even among the religious in the U.S. Tell me, does anyone know a prophet of the type that existed in the past? Has anyone the slightest doubt that if such a human being would appear that he would be rushed to the doctor to be medicated? In fact we medicate enough children already, we prevent all thought unless it is controlled, measured, tolerant, unextreme...educated.

Even if we were to become more and more open to extremes of thought and irrational thought processes, they would no doubt be employed toward increased order, increased capability of man in the political/economic/technocratic sense. But even then a lone individual cannot do more than we all can do together as we share thoughts, predict the weather (actually and metaphorically), and see farther and farther into the future and plan our future for ourselves.

Just reflect on all the changes that have occured within the last two hundred years. Arthur C. Clarke put it well when he observed that our advance has been miraculous and dependent on courage (nerve) and imagination. Would it be arrogant to say we are routinely becoming better than the prophets of the past? If we are just becoming arrogant rather than prophetic then perhaps the religious can stir up some prophets for us and demonstrate the difference, demonstrate the superiority of prophecy in the old-time sense.

No, I have no fear of the Constitution being changed to "God's standards" because it seems God favors a changing time and standards which always arrive, banners waving, standards changing time toward himself, a being for which we have yet to really have a standard, but we will see the standard of God.

But what the standard of God is always outstrips prophecy.

You, concerned, need to layoff the Crossan whose scholarship is debatable when it isn't downright laughable. The same is true of the other Jesus seminarians you mention.

Bertuğ cemil - yağmur (Rain)

Küçük hesaplarla geçiyor yaşam
Life is passing with small plans
Büyük kavgalar hep küçük şeyler için
Big fights are always for small things
Arsız ayaklar altında alın teri
Effort is under shameless feet
Kırılgan naif elleri
Its pure hands are fragile
Yalanlar yalanlar yalanlar
Lies lies lies
Bulutların ardındaki güneş gibi gerçek
Real like sun behind the clouds
Sevilmeye muhtaçken kimileri
While someone needs to be loved
Kirli avuçlara düşüverecek
It will fall to dirty handfuls
Yağmur
Rain
Geri verecek buharlaşan sevgimizi
Will give back our love which has evaporated
Yağmur
Rain
Sessizce silecek kibirimizi
Will erase our arrogance silently
Vadide akmayı öğrendi nehrimiz
Our river has learnt to flow on canyon
Kas katı insanların arasında
Between very hard people
Sevincin resmi olacak doğa birgün
Nature will be picture of joy one day
Biz genişleyip denize varınca
When we widen and reach at the sea
Yağmur
Rain
Bazen tutkudan delirince
When go mad because of passion sometimes
Kapanmalı kendine
Must be close to yourself
Yağmurun kucağında
In the embrace of rain
Doymalı sessizliğe
Must be satisfied with silence
Yağmur
Rain

Levent Alkan,

Based on your commentaries, you are a Turkish Moslem, Bred, Born and Brainwashed in fundamental Islam??? Most of us to include myself (Catholicism) were Bred, Born and Brainwashed in some religion.

If you look at the history of Islam and Catholicism/Christianity you will find many flaws/errors in the founders and foundations of said religions:

A synopsis of these errors:

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was probably a mythical character as was Moses, the "Tablet-Man" who talked to burning bushes and made much magic in Egypt.

1.5 million Conservative Jews and their rabbis have relegated Abraham and Moses to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT. http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

2. Jesus, the illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter possibly suffering from hallucinations, has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics. http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html
For added "pizzazz", Catholic/Christian theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "filicider".

3. Mohammed, an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven,warmongering, hallucinating Arab, also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the assassination of Bhutto, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.

And who funds these acts of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

4. Luther, Calvin, Joe Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingy talking flying fictional thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

An update on Ghandi's anti-Jewish commentary -

From today's news:

"Gandhi's grandson quits N.Y. peace center
By Ben Dobbin

Associated Press

ROCHESTER, N.Y. - A grandson of Mohandas Gandhi has resigned from a peace institute after drawing condemnation for saying in an online forum that Israel and Jews "are the biggest players" in a global culture of violence.
Arun Gandhi, the fifth grandson of the revered pacifist, said yesterday the board of the M.K. Gandhi Institute for Nonviolence, based at the University of Rochester, had accepted his offer a day earlier to step down as president.

Gandhi cofounded the institute with his wife, Sunanda.

He was on a panel of scholars, writers and clergy who discuss a new topic weekly on the Washington Post's "On Faith" page and his comments, posted Jan. 7, drew a torrent of criticism.

He wrote that Jewish identity "has been locked into the Holocaust experience - a German burden that the Jews have not been able to shed. It is a very good example of [how] a community can overplay a historic experience to the point that it begins to repulse friends.

"The Holocaust was the result of the warped mind of an individual who was able to influence his followers into doing something dreadful. . . . The world did feel sorry for the episode, but when an individual or a nation refuses to forgive and move on, the regret turns into anger."

Describing Israel as "a nation that believes its survival can only be ensured by weapons and bombs," Gandhi asked whether it would "not be better to befriend those who hate you?"

"We have created a culture of violence (Israel and the Jews are the biggest players) and that Culture of Violence is eventually going to destroy humanity," he added.

Gandhi later apologized "for my poorly worded post," saying he should not have implied that Israeli government policies reflected the views of all Jewish people.

"I do believe that when a people hold on to historic grievances too firmly it can lead to bitterness and the loss of support from those who would be friends," he wrote in a follow-up.

The school declined immediate comment on the controversy, saying the institute's board "is separate from the university."

i invite Venice and United Nations to check for Koc Family whose patron had travelled around the world with an Israelian Captain, their relations with Orthodox Church Patriarch BArtholomeos and United Kingdom, and the context of their relations, and how Koc Family affect the economics and government of Anatolia in these relations.

( please ease the electromagnetics, and i invite United Nations Institute of Nuclear Energy to read the text in hand and to check the dictionary in use to manage the electromagnetic researches at Electronics & Engineering Department of Bilkent University, on how they are employed already on mobile phones and electromagnetic web )

Richard Gere is so kind, Sally Quinn, isnt he? did you meet his father? could you ask him whether in Buddhism souls who have left body are together with us to come into body that we make? i support Mike Huckabee, he knows Diabetes, Breath and Inspiration and we shall learn with Moses.

YAgmur, Bertug Cemil
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZSHpCXPjgo

rain, rain, rain, rain shall give our love back from the vapour of our love

we had talked about Archangel GAbriel known with West of Four Directions and Grace

Prime Minister Recep TAyyip Erdogan, in His speech at a Meeting with Minister of Education
talked about West and Science and Wisdom, and being unaware of Gabriel also.

this may be read as an intimate heartful resentment of this touch of Grace
that for years we had been in drought in our hearts, with a few of drops of rain we nourished

and a kind reminder also as western countries could have been graceful in their messeges
in science and wisdom, in the technology and in the way they employ the technology.

this is Mosesian language, four archangels and four directions, this is in Utah, in Quran,
in Bible also in history too. yet Throne of Metatron and Enoch in Talmud shall be subject to texts to read.

Jist, Jist, Jist,

The echos of your mind still need a bit of sound adjustment as to what you hold true:

1. the existence of "pretty and ugly flying thingies" (a required tenent of Islam)???

2. the koran being based on the hallucinations of one long dead Arab????

3. the correct side of the Sunni-Shiite 800 year old blood feud???

4. theocracies, good or bad???

5. the sins of being Islamic??? (false "profits", greed, anger, lust, polygamy, warmongering, suicide)??

6. Islamic scribes plagiarizing the codes, passages and ways of the ancients even the anti-female passages of "Prude Paul"?????

Answer these six questions correctly and you will be able to shout, "Free at last, Free at last!!!!

And please, please, no obfuscating for once!!!!

P.S. And no commentary on Jay Smith's conclusions about the koran???

CONTACT your representatives and urge them to support and sponsor:

NESARA - The National Economic Stabilization and Recovery Act

http://nesara.org

Purpose
• To provide monetary reform by amending the Federal Reserve Act of 1913.
• To provide fiscal reform by amending the Internal Revenue Code of 1939.
• To secure for the American people their unalienable right to Life, Liberty, and Property.
What is wrong with America?
• The income gap between the rich and poor continues to widen
• Earnings for the poorest fifth of American families rose less than 1% between 1988 and 1998
• Earnings for the richest fifth of American families rose more than 15% between 1988 and 1998
• Income tax preparation costs Americans more than $225 billion and more than 5 billion hours per
year in nonproductive labor
• Social woes and problems continue to escalate
• Income tax laws continue to erode privacy rights
• Asset forfeitures continue to rise due to inequitable monetary policy and tax laws
• The American Dream is quickly disappearing
• Unsound monetary and fiscal policies encourage waste and graft
• Public and private debt continue to rise
• Current banking practices and policies no longer support the people but special interests
• Current monetary and fiscal policy provides no mechanism to stop or defeat inflation
Can We Really “Fix” America?
Can One Bill Repair The Damage?
NESARA will:
• Reduce social inequalities and problems by doubling the average standard of living
• Eliminate trillions of dollars of public and private debt
• Return control of the currency to the public
• Reduces the cost of using public currency
• Provide new banking rules that are equitable and fair to all
• Provide $500 billion of new public works projects
• Replace the income tax with a fair tax
• Improve the balance of trade problems
• Rebuild American industry with high-paying, productive jobs
• Eliminate inflation

Oh my! CTCNL!

And I had thought the Prophet went to Oxford, Sorbonne and Harvard.

And I had thought illiteracy is wiped out in the world.

And I had thought we have no lust anymore and no pornographic industry.

And I had thought we have no greed anymore for markets and resources.

And I had thought we are no longer into wars and warmongering anymore, even the neocons are into it.

And I had thought that we are no longer hallucinating anymore and off drugs, bonging and freebasing etc.

And I had thought that plagiarising no longer happens in universities and On Faith threads and cutting and pasting too.

And I had thought "flying chariots" is in the Bhagavad Gita and Erich Von Danniken's, "Chariots of the Gods".

And I had thought that even non-Muslims and non-Muslim states have militaristic agendas.

And I had thought that it was non-Muslim companies plundering and looting of the lands of Muslims now for resources and oil.

Have a good weekend.

Jist, Jist, Jist,

Hmmm, you and Mary C. have little in common. Mary still remains an "Undeflawed" Catholic/Christian. You, on the other hand, are nearing the zone of Reality.

And I sing like a "baritonic" blackbird, reiterating at the moment the lyrics of one Jay Smith. We await the echos of your mind:

http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/quran9tc.htm

"In conclusion, while we can concede that the Qur'an is a fascinating book to study, it simply cannot maintain its status as the final Word of God it claims to be.

The declaration of textual perfection by the Muslims simply do not stand up to any critical analysis of their content. As we have seen, the Qur'an carries numerous inconsistencies with the former scriptures, while its narratives and stories help to discredit its claim to be the true Word of God.

Popular sentiment and unquestioning fanatical devotion by Muslims are simply not adequate as a proof for the Qur'an's authenticity. When we take a sober analysis of the sources of the Qur'an, we find conclusive evidence that the confidence of the Muslims for their scripture is simply unfounded.

It stands to reason that those whose responsibility it was to compile a "holy book" which could compete with the existing scriptures, would naturally turn to the myths and legends of the surrounding civilizations and borrow many of their stories. Due to the predominance of oral tradition in the 7th-9th centuries one can understand how many of the stories became embellished and distorted over time. It is these corrupted stories that we find all through the Qur'an, many of which were adapted from 2nd century Talmudic literature, which was popular amongst the Jews of that area. Consequently it is the glaring similarities which we find between the Qur'an and these errant sources which nullifies the claim that the Qur'an could hope to be the true Word of God. "

That looks a lot like:

Mohammed was an illiterate, lusting, greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab who also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

GaryD writes: "Ask yourself a question sir? What are the amendments Huckabee seeks? They are extraordinarily limited in scope. One would limit marriage to a union between a man and a woman - it's historical definition - and it says nothing against civil unions. The other seeks to remove the federal government from the abortion issue where it had no business to begin with."

If abortion isn't the federal government's business, then why is marriage the federal government's business? Please explain in your own words.

And I'm glad you're not bitter. Hopefully that observation will quell your absurd whining about being a second class citizen.

Soja from Australia,

Happy Australia Day to you too!.

Beautiful country, Australia, from the Uluru to the Great Barrier Reef. I can't decide if I like Sydney or Melbourne better.

And Happy India Republic Day to you to as a PIO.

I felt overwhelmed by Mumbai during one lunchtime there. Makes New York seems like Alice Springs.

--------------------------------------------------

Yo, Concerned The Christian Now Liberated!

Surely you can stand a wee tear! Let it rip!

Mary Cunningham, the Catholic, and moi the Muslim, have some things in common:

- we are both non-Americans in On Faith threads.

- we share a liking for John Gray of the LSE who wrote "Straw Dogs - Thoughts on Humans and Other Human Animals", "Heresies" etc.

- many non-Catholic Christians and non-Christians are irked with Catholicism and Islam and pile their vile and bile here on Catholics and Muslims.

- many atheists are irked with believers as unyielding adherents of "superstitions" and that include us as believers of God.

So, your prefered shortform for Concerned the Christian Now Liberated is not CCNL, but CTCNL.

And where is that lyrics and music of "Grace" in Gregorian chant? Do you sing like a pretty wingy flying thingy, a.k.a. angel?

Happy Australia Day to all Aussies living in the US or anywhere else in the world (outside Australia)! Have fun and celebrate all that is true and good and beautiful about Australia, even if you do not live in Australia at the moment, even if you happen to love the countries in which you now live more than Australia!

Happy Republic Day to all Indians living in the US, in India and anywhere else in the world! Celebrate all that is beautiful, good and true about India!

I'm an Indian woman with dual citizenship - Indian & Australian. I'm grateful for India and all that it gave me. India is my root and Indianness - both the good and bad - flows in my veins. I'm equally grateful to Australia, which is now my home; Australia's pride is my pride, its destiny my destiny.

Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia

Why should religion and politics be kept separate?

Worldly power corrupts, more worldly power corrupts even more, absolute wordly power corrupts absolutely - and politics done in the name of religion turns out to be a disaster.

Religious values based on universal love and truth should inform politics, based on a political discussion that people of all religions and none can participate in, in a way without turning any particular religious text into an article of the constitution.

Worldly politics can only legislate the minimum on ethics, that one should not harm oneself or one's neighbour. But how much we should love ourselves and our neighbour is for religions to prescribe, it is for us to do in accordance with our own level of consciousness and our individual relationship to God (no matter what we may call Him or what rituals we may use to worship Him) and encourage their followers to model. The rest will take care of itself.

Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia

Wow, the "Obfusing" Jist is on a bit of CTCNL tear this evening!! And she says she always skips what he says??????

Actually it is all about the flaws in the founders and foundations of religion. Why continue to live the charade???

Contemporary acceptance of orthodox/flaws of Christianity/Catholicism, Mormonism, Buddhism, Atheism, Paganism or Hinduism is not a threat to world peace. Orthodox and flawed Islam is, as evidenced by the 24/7 violence across the Middle East and in much of southern Asia.

Jist (formerly known as The Jihadist) is already "deflawing" her koran by skipping the koranic "Prudish Paul Passages" (as all Muslim women should) and the militaristic passages added to the life codes of the ancients that appear in the koran without proper reference. We applaud Jist for her courage!!!!!!

Now if she could only put "the pretty and ugly flying thingies on the myth pile!!!!! If she would do that, we would upgrade her from "Jist" to "Realist". And with this would come free tickets to Professor Crossan's next "Deflawing" Christianity Specifically, Religions in General lecture. Ditto for any Islamic.

Recognizing the United States of America is the strongest military country in the world, and recognizing people covet power, why in the world should it not be assumed that a group would bind together to take control of the country anyway they can, using religion or whatever works. And why are those with the skills to command and control the United States pushed aside for someone that is nothing more than a fast talking head. These things don't just happen; they have a head somewhere.

Destroying the Constitution of the United States of America seems to be the prime objective of some behind-the-scenes groupie and Huckabee seems to be so naive that he will say whatever he is told/suggested to whether it makes sense or not, or is the truth or not.

Bitter??? Hardly. I am after all but a visitor hear, a stranger in a very strange land that grows increasingly stranger the more it seeks after self promotion and selfishness at the expense of its very humanity.

Ask yourself a question sir? What are the amendments Huckabee seeks? They are extraordinarily limited in scope. One would limit marriage to a union between a man and a woman - it's historical definition - and it says nothing against civil unions. The other seeks to remove the federal government from the abortion issue where it had no business to begin with.

Brian:

Huckabee is the reactionary here. Presented with a perfectly fine first amendment, how does he wish to use his free exercise? To add a definition of the marriage sacrament to the constitution? Define legitimate family succession to the offspring produced of a heterosexual christian marriage? How 18th century continental... and reactionary.

Sure, it's easier to change the constitution than a number of other things:

“I have opponents in this race who do not want to change the Constitution. But I believe it’s a lot easier to change the Constitution than it would be to change the word of the living God. And that’s what we need to do is amend the Constitution so it’s in God’s standards rather than trying to change God’s standards so it lines up with some contemporary view of how we treat each other and how we treat the family.”

Just what is he saying? Is it not a call to amend the constitution? Just what do the words: "and that's what we need to do is amend the constitution..." mean to you? What part of the constitution is does he want to open up for revision? What new amendment is he proposing? Why would any statehouse put a constitutional convention on its agenda?

Help us understand? Explain how a religious sacrament is a federal issue?

--fius

The level of hatred, intolerance, and ignorance in these comments is shocking. The First Amendment, a religious amendment to the Constitution, is claimed as the most fundamental right, but is being used to argue for the removal of a certain kind of religious people from public life.

Have any of you read Huckabee's quote in context? Do you even know what he actually said, or did you just read the ripped-out quote-mining text of this blog? The comments by Ceetee9, Luke, Priver, D, Joet, Concerned the Christian Now Liberated, and Jonny, and most of the guest editorialists are simply incoherent in light of the actual facts.

Rambling and reactionary, hateful and intolerant, a mob voice to marginalize Christians with certain theological views. This is what America stands for?

Is the whole thing just a criminal conspiracy tapping into the hope of humankind? Was a lot of the "Old Testament" written after the "New Testament" to support 'theology' developed to support the conspiracy?

There certainly seems to be some phenomena in the world that the writers observed and used but the details seems to be nothing more than a criminal conspiracy.

Why was 'John the Baptist' preaching 'repentance' and 'baptism'?

It is mind boggling that people consider such a proposal as putting 'God's Word' into the constitution as sane. Ole Moses wouldn't let the people look upon what God wrote. He got mad and bursted the first set of stones then got another set and put them in a box! Which words are Huckabee going to prove to be the 'Word of God'? What if God wants to change his mind?????????

History has proven that when church and state unite, religious intolerance is the inevitable result.

I hate christians.

Hello Mary Cunningham,

Thanks on that Seven Deadly Sins and Ireland. Sometimes, I wish I would not travel the world so much and have so many reality checks. But I would not have it any other way.

Want to talk about Concerned the Christian Now Liberated? Do you seriously think he is having impact on what everybody think and believe? Yes, I don't don't think so either.

Ohhh... some of these gung ho, macho, honcho Yanks! Still into Manifest Destiny! Still into American Excetionalism! Onward with American Unilateralism! From politics to economics to religion to atheism!

Ohh.. and still telling the world what to think, what to do, "with us or against us" by their standards, their values, their experiences, their needs, their wants, their knowledge, their realm, their century and other such cliches they themselves write about and let the world know. And, er, without asking what the rest of us want and think:)

In that mischievous context, Concerned the Christian Now Liberated is an uber-American patriot, a Crossanized Christian in excelsis, a Catholic of Reality in extremis, a "Missionary Man" who is asking us to change our beliefs to his, and change our allegiance to his country's.

Makes one seriously pause to think whether Americans like CCNL wants the world to be free to be what they want to be, or to be Americanised and/or Crossanised.

And so, in the Americanisation and Crossanisation of people as CCNL wants, "flogging" is his method to "convert" people to his beliefs. "With me or against what I believe" is his ultimatum for his acceptance of others.

CCNL is also on a crusade to save the "souls" of Muslims and led us to "salvation". Not a single Muslim is Crossanized. He keep trying to shove Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Salman Rushdie down our throats as "Muslim" reformers.

No doubt, lots of people in On Faith threads do secretly cheer him on if he is doing so to Muslims, Mormons, Pagan and some Christians. But some do get really upset when CCNL turn on them personally as Christians, Pagans, Mormons etc.

Thanks for reminding that about that background on CCNL. He did say so sometime back on his name being mistaken for a Jewish one.

CCNL also said he has doubts in his mind before. Reading what JD Crossan and other Jesus Seminarians clarified for him on his doubts, and, er, "liberated" him.

Of course, as a self-designated "Crossanized Christian" and self-termed "Catholic of Reality", he is still singing "Grace" in Gregorian chant as a family tradition. He said so himself.

CCNL's constant insistence that we are all "born, bred and brainwashed" in our respective faiths seem to say more about him than us - that he is possibly was such a case.

We really don't want to know of CCNL's personal demons which he may or may not seeks to purge in his limbo of belief and non-belief here in On Faith. He calls it deletions and editions of mythical or supernatural aspects of beliefs.

For all we know, he may be atoning or repenting for his personal beliefs and doubts before, and wants to "cleanse" and "baptise" us by railing and riling and viling and mocking and taunting and what have you.

So many atheists seem to think and keep insisting that we believers are a fearful and delusioned lot. Seems to say more about them as former believers than us as believers.

So, do you really take CCNL seriously across oceans and chasms of personal beliefs?

Thanks and regards
"J"

This wouldn't be an issue if Huckabee opposed abortion and gay marriage using purely secular grounds. His "God's standards" comment strongly suggests that his rewriting of the Constitution wouldn't stop with abortion and gay marriage.

My laughter over Mary C's comments affected my proofreading. Make that "I am an "equal opportunity railing" kind of guy.

Also I did some checking on Joseph Smith the author of the referenced anti-Islam/koran study. His name is actually Jay Smith. Web page lists Joseph Smith as the author. Added info at http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2002/september9/32.37.html

He also has some YouTube presentations giving his side of his dipute with Islam.

THANKS:

Afghan Reporter's DEATH SENTENCE Draws Wide Condemnation

A death sentence handed to a reporter in Afghanistan has prompted the United Nations and several press freedom organizations to urge the Afghan president, Hamid Karzai, to intervene in the case.

Sayed Perwiz Kambakhsh, 20, a reporter for the daily Jahan-e Naw and a journalism student at Balkh University, was arrested Oct. 27 in the northern Afghan city of Mazar-e Sharif, an area where mullahs hold particular influence over law and cultural life.

His alleged offense was distributing to classmates a report, printed from a Web site, commenting on a Muslim woman's right to multiple marriages. The article, written in Farsi, which is close to the Dari language spoken in Afghanistan, questioned why men are allowed to have four spouses in Islam while women are denied the same right.

Without a lawyer to represent him, Kambakhsh was hustled Tuesday into a small hearing room where three judges and a prosecutor conducted a five-minute proceeding, according to his older brother.

He was then handed a piece of paper saying he had ACTED AGAINST ISLAM AND SHOULD BE EXECUTED, said the brother, Sayed Yaqub Ibrahimi, who visited him in prison Wednesday night.

"There was no defense lawyer, no human rights adviser, no family member, no discussion, nothing," Ibrahimi, a 26-year-old journalist, said by telephone from Mazar-e Sharif. "They did not let him explain. It was a joke."

On Thursday, the U.N. Assistance Mission in Afghanistan issued a statement saying: "The pressures for punishment, warnings to journalists, as well as the holding of this case in closed session without Mr. Kambakhsh having legal representation point to possible misuse of the judicial process. This would not serve the cause of justice."

Organizations such as the Paris-based Reporters Without Borders and the London-based Institute for War and Peace Reporting, which has offices in Kabul, the capital, said the charges against Kambakhsh are aimed at intimidating his older brother, Ibrahimi, who recently published an article implicating an Afghan legislator in a series of killings and kidnappings.

"This is a freedom of expression case," said Vincent Brossel, the Reporters Without Borders official in charge of the Asia-Pacific region. "Ibrahimi, who is the more senior and experienced journalist among the brothers, has been under threat for months. And the arrest and sentence was a way to gag him."

In Kabul, Jean MacKenzie, country director for the Institute of War and Peace Reporting, which trains Afghan journalists and for which Ibrahimi has written, told the Associated Press that the charges against Kambakhsh were fake.

"We feel strongly that this is a complete fabrication on the part of the authorities up in Mazar," she said.

A prosecutor in Mazar-e Sharif recently warned journalists not to express public signs of support for their imprisoned colleague.

Ibrahimi said he was still writing, but also moving constantly to avoid arrest.

"I am being careful and I am concerned, but I am working and doing my job," he said. "I may be risking death, but I should accept the challenge."

Brossel and Ibrahimi said that in provinces far from Kabul, mullahs and a council of clerics are more powerful than the government. "We hope the power of international pressure on President Karzai will influence him to act," Brossel said.

Under the Afghan constitution, which acknowledges the precedence of sharia, or Islamic law, Kambakhsh could not be held for more than three months without charge.

According to Afghan law, defense lawyers may appeal the lower court's decision. Ibrahimi, who has consulted with mullahs, said he was told that his brother could have been released after three days if he had apologized.

Said Tayeb Jawad, the Afghan ambassador to the United States, confirmed that Kambakhsh has the right to appeal all the way to the Supreme Court. "This is just a recommendation by the council of clerics," Jawad said of the sentence, adding that he has taken the matter up with the foreign affairs minister. "It does not have binding power."

Leave a comment-

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/24/AR2008012402995_Comments.html

GaryD writes:

"
...
IN short what this should mean to anyone with a brain and no anti religion bias is that the congress of the United States can't make any laws telling you how to build your church or run it. Nor can it tell you how to worship your God if any.

The point of this obviously is to make the government absolutely neutral between all religious choices including no religion at all.

This apparently isn't good enough for the atheists among us..."

If, as you say, the constitution is already aligned with biblical values and the government is entirely neutral with respect to religion and free exercise thereof, as we seem to agree is the original recipe of its authors--then to what, pray tell, do you suppose Mr. Huckabee is referring?

I don't see many atheists calling for amendments of any kind. Why is Mr. H so eager?

Just curious...

--FIUS

GaryD writes: "I hate to tell you this but the constitution is already pretty much in line with Biblical teachings."

There are a few similarities, sure. There are many more discrepancies.

and then continues: "This apparently isn't good enough for the atheists among us however as they seem to wish that every religious view but their own should be silenced and completely shut out of public life."

You seem to be bitter that your god would include this persecution in his ultimate plan.

Mary C, Mary C, Mary C,

Thanks for bringing added laughter to my morning i.e. your comment: " He (CTCNL) is railing against women, the "monstrous regiment of women" in John Knox's words. "

Not really!!! I an "equal railing" kind of guy. The Jist does not get added attention because she is a female but because she is a "constant" commentator. Note that Ahmed from Bahrain, Moody and Eboo, all Islamic males, get "railed" after each of their "Three B" commentaries but they are not as verbose as The Jist and Victoria.

Victoria, btw, is hiding these days after referencing quotes from an anti-Muslim study as being the inerrant word of Allah. The conclusions of said study are noted below for your perusal.

http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/quran9tc.htm

"In conclusion, while we can concede that the Qur'an is a fascinating book to study, it simply cannot maintain its status as the final Word of God it claims to be. The declaration of textual perfection by the Muslims simply do not stand up to any critical analysis of their content.

As we have seen, the Qur'an carries numerous inconsistencies with the former scriptures, while its narratives and stories help to discredit its claim to be the true Word of God. Popular sentiment and unquestioning fanatical devotion by Muslims are simply not adequate as a proof for the Qur'an's authenticity. When we take a sober analysis of the sources of the Qur'an, we find conclusive evidence that the confidence of the Muslims for their scripture is simply unfounded.
It stands to reason that those whose responsibility it was to compile a "holy book" which could compete with the existing scriptures, would naturally turn to the myths and legends of the surrounding civilizations and borrow many of their stories.

Due to the predominance of oral tradition in the 7th-9th centuries one can understand how many of the stories became embellished and distorted over time. It is these corrupted stories that we find all through the Qur'an, many of which were adapted from 2nd century Talmudic literature, which was popular amongst the Jews of that area. Consequently it is the glaring similarities which we find between the Qur'an and these errant sources which nullifies the claim that the Qur'an could hope to be the true Word of God. "

That looks a lot like:

Mohammed was an illiterate, lusting, greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "pretty wingy thingies" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

Unfortunately the author of the study, Joseph Smith (apparently no relation to Joe Smith, the "Mormon-con"), spent too little time on identifying the flaws in the founders and foundations of Christianity as based on his conclusions that the bible is the true words of god.

Jihadist,

Meant to reply to your Seven Deadly Sins earlier. I liked your country list. I wish I knew more about Asia, but alas, I am stuck in the old continent.

I've been thinking a little about my 7DeadlySin list. There are a few additions:

Ireland: Drunkenness (or gluttony but of alcohol). We have the highest per capita alcohol consumption in the world. And when you consider most Irishwomen are temperate, you realize the men's consumption is even more prodigious.

Israel: Anger. Arun Ghandi alluded to this in his incredibly clumsy article and provoked a firestorm of protest. But one look at what's happening to the hapless Pals, what happened in Lebanon a few years ago...etc. imho confirms this terrible sin.

CCNL: Thinking about him, I recognized him. He was raised a Catholic in an Irish household. He has said his surname was confused with a Jewish name--it would have had to have been Coen or Cohan or a variation thereof. There were lots of Cohans in the west of Ireland, where I was born and spent my early years. Hopefully, we are not related, but you must realize our friend is in rebellion from the faith of his mothers. Because Catholicism in the west has always been dominated by women, women like my mother and grandmother, good women and devout. Now I thrived in such an environment, but I think if you were a boisterous little rascally boy, you might not.

So it;s impossible really to argue with him. He is railing against women, the "monstrous regiment of women" in John Knox's words.

Huckabee is delightful. His simplistic, biblical-based view of the universe demonstrates that he and his ilk belong in the Flat Earth Society. This is an ideal forum for forward-thinking people who long for a world where everyone falls in line, paying homage to a god they cannot see, putting their faith in the bible, a book that's been rewritten and manipulated so much as to be unrecognizable, and wasting valuable time kneeling in front of statues Yes, we need Mike Huckabee. When he and his followers get in the power position, witch-burning and Inquisition can't be far behind.

O "Obfusing" Jist formerly Jihadist,

Considering you have laid the "Prude-Paul Passages" and militaristic passages of the koran aside in your daily life, you are well on your way to "Deflawdom". So now you practice the codes of the ancients (Hittites, Egyptians, Greeks, Jews (OT), Christians (NT) etc i.e what remains in the koran. This is great since as you noted we can learn from our past mistakes.

With respect to scientists and their codes of conduct:

Hmmm, the "god-free" Commandments of the OT (based on even more ancient codes, http://www.gwu.edu/~erpapers/humanrights/timeline/timeline1.cfm) and the codes such as the US Constitution's Bill of Rights are from what I can tell the codes of conduct of all "noble" men and women of Science.

"Do no harm" and "Treat your fellow humans as yourself" summarize these codes of the "noble" scientists.

Ah the atheist fear mongers are out in full force it would seem.

I hate to tell you this but the constitution is already pretty much in line with Biblical teachings.

The first amendment properly interpreted is more than sufficient to do so. To wit:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

IN short what this should mean to anyone with a brain and no anti religion bias is that the congress of the United States can't make any laws telling you how to build your church or run it. Nor can it tell you how to worship your God if any.

The point of this obviously is to make the government absolutely neutral between all religious choices including no religion at all.

This apparently isn't good enough for the atheists among us however as they seem to wish that every religious view but their own should be silenced and completely shut out of public life.

Yo! Concerned the Christian Now Liberated:)

You : "Think, infinite time and the "Gib Gnab"!!!!

Ahh...the infinite ways and to infinity to think up of ways to say God or the Devil made us kill and do this and that when it is only what we want for ourself and our own ends....

Ahh.... the infinite ways to say it is there is no God but us and our free will. Better the power of God who don't interfere in the affairs of man and let man decide on the personal choices he made in life, than the power of man who thinks he is god and force others to accept his choices at their expense, and yield to his will, eh?

The rational and logical man can never be corrupted by such outdated, outmoded, retrogressive things formulated by God-delusioned believers call the Deven Deadly Sins in all its variations. After all, those are really only minor flaws and errors that logical and rational humans are prone to due to human nature.

Good ethics and values and integrity are obscene words and characteristic to be inbued in man. Can't have those. It makes us irrrational. It makes us illogical. It impedes our progress as humans and in being humane.

Is ethics and values not important for the scientific community?

Is there a universal code of ethics for scientists?

Do scientists wants to make life better or life worse for humans?

Do scientists consider the greater good in what they do?

Do scientists think ahead of what they are doing and why?

Do scientists have to be amoral to ensure scientific detachment and objective inquiry?

Hmmmmm....maybe there may be something to what Mr. Huckabee said about God's laws after all.

Are we messing up with the natural law of the universe and natural progression and development of lifef-forms in creating mutations and mutants?

How can we know for certain what is created by scientists may not cause negative repercussions on nature or abuse by nefarious ones here on earth and in the universe eventually and possibly?

Trials and errors is human progress, no?
We learn from our errors and mistakes, no?
Or not.

"J" the Gibber Gnabber

O "Obfusing" Jist (formerly Jihadist),

And may your awesome creator slay the infidel for her disbelief!!!!!

Think, infinite time and the "Gib Gnab"!!!!

Mr. Mark : "Looks like god ain't the only one who can create life these days."

Good idea for scientists to create life from what is already existing, combining and making a "soup" and coming up with duplications or something new perhaps.

I can hardly wait for scientists to create the universe, duplicate the black holes, the worm-holes etc. They have done quite well harnessing atoms into atom bombs and to progress to developing nuclear bombs.

Perhaps we will allow scientists to perfect the cloning of humans and other lifeforms to replace those which may be exterminated by nuclear bombs in in a nuclear Armageddon or Holocaust?

Like one of the scientists in the report stated: "It's a fun thing"....and er, what has it got to do with what Mr. Huckabee said on the Constitution and God's laws?

Well done there for scientists, the neo gods who walks the earth with the power of mind and ability to come up with ways exterminate all life, and ways to create life nowadays. We can identify them and lock up the scientific gods of war weapons - nuclear, biological, chemical.

Have scientists found ways to minimise human nature or human genes related to hating, killing, stealing and minimise the excessive and worst manifestation of of what is, say, the Seven Deadly Sins in man?

Thanks and regards.
"J"

Looks like god ain't the only one who can create life these days.

Scientists Take New Step Toward Man-Made Life

By ANDREW POLLACK NYT
Published: January 24, 2008

Taking a significant step toward the creation of man-made forms of life, researchers reported Thursday that they had manufactured the entire genome of a bacterium by painstakingly stitching together its chemical components.

While scientists had previously synthesized the complete DNA of viruses, this is the first time it has been done for bacteria, which are much more complex. The genome is more than 10 times as long as the longest piece of DNA ever previously synthesized.

The feat is a watershed for the emerging field called synthetic biology, which involves the design of organisms to perform particular tasks, such as making biofuels. Synthetic biologists envision being able one day to design an organism on a computer, press the “print” button to have the necessary DNA made, and then put that DNA into a cell to produce a custom-made creature.

“What we are doing with the synthetic chromosome is going to be the design process of the future,” said Dr. J. Craig Venter, the boundary-pushing gene scientist. He assembled the team that made the bacterial genome as part of his well publicized quest to create the first synthetic organism. The work was published online Thursday by the journal Science.

But there are concerns that synthetic biology could be used to make pathogens, or that errors by well-intended scientists could produce organisms that run amok. The genome of the smallpox virus can in theory now be synthesized using the techniques reported on Thursday, since it is only about one-third the size of the genome manufactured by Dr. Venter’s group.

In any case, there are many hurdles to overcome before Dr. Venter’s vision of “life by design” is realized. The synthetic genome made by Dr. Venter’s team was not designed from scratch, but rather was a copy, with only a few changes, of the genetic sequence of a tiny natural bacterium called Mycoplasma genitalium.

Moreover, Dr. Venter’s team, led by a Nobel laureate, Hamilton Smith, has so far failed to accomplish the next —and biggest — step. That would be to insert the synthetic chromosome into a living microbe and have it “boot up” and take control of the organism’s functioning.

If that happened, it would be considered by some to be the creation of the first synthetic organism. The failure to achieve that so far has tempered the reception of some outside scientists.

“No matter how they praise the quality of the synthetic DNA, they have no idea whether it is biologically active,” said Eckard Wimmer, a professor at Stony Brook University who created live polio virus in 2002 using synthetic DNA and the publicly available genome sequence.

George M. Church, a professor of genetics at Harvard Medical School, said, “Right now, all they’ve done is shown they can buy a bunch of DNA and put it together.”

Dr. Venter’s team reported successfully doing such a chromosome transplant last year, but it involved the natural genome of one type of Mycoplasma being put into another species of that bacterium.

Dr. Venter said each pair of donor genome and recipient cell presents unique problems. The scientists also think they interrupted the functioning of one crucial gene by their assembly process, a correctable problem.

“It’s not a slam dunk, or we would be announcing it today,” he told reporters. Still, he expressed confidence, saying, “I will be equally surprised and disappointed if we can’t do it in 2008.”

The bacterial genome that was synthesized consisted of 582,970 base pairs, the chemical units of the genetic code that are represented by the letters A, C, G, and T. The longest stretch of synthetic DNA previously reported in a scientific paper was about 32,000 bases long, though some gene synthesis companies say they can attach about 50,000 bases.

The machines that can string together bases make lots of errors, so it is not practical to make a string of more than 50 to 100 bases at a time. But some companies — the foundries of the biotechnology era — now make genes thousands of bases long by splicing those shorter strings together.

The Venter team ordered 101 such sequences, each 5,000 to 7,000 bases long, from these companies. They then joined them together into bigger pieces and still bigger pieces. In the final step, four big pieces were put into yeast, which hooked them together using a natural gene-repair mechanism.

The process was started in late 2002, Dr. Venter said, and undoubtedly cost millions of dollars. That led some scientists to question why someone would want to synthesize an entire organism. Scientists can already make useful organisms — including some that are now starting to be make biofuels — by modifying existing ones using genetic engineering.

“It’s not entirely clear to me what the immediate purpose of doing something like this is,” said Jeremy Minshull, chief executive of DNA 2.0, a company that supplied some of the DNA stretches to the Venter team. “To some extent, it’s something that was driven by ‘I want to be the first person to do it.’ ”

Right now, Mr. Minshull said, scientists do not know enough about how living things work to design an entire genome: “Now our synthetic capability way outpaces our understanding of what we want to do.”

For now, that is the case, Dr. Venter concedes. He has a company, Synthetic Genomics, that is using genetic engineering to produce biofuels. It is using organisms other than Mycoplasma genitalium, which was chosen for the synthetic genome project because its genome is tiny, one-tenth the size of the genomes of some other bacteria. But Mycoplasma is not suited to industrial production.

Still, Dr. Venter and some other scientists say that DNA synthesis is following the path of computer chips, with capability rising rapidly and cost — now about $1 per base — falling swiftly. At some point, they say, it will become faster and cheaper for scientists to design and synthesize an organism from scratch rather than cut and paste genes from one organism to another, just as it is sometimes easier for a writer to type a fresh draft rather than edit an existing one.

The ability to synthesize genomes would allow for more scientific experimentation. Dr. Venter said he would now be able to create organisms missing dozens of genes to answer the initial question that sparked the research ten years ago: What is the minimum set of genes needed for life?

Dr. Venter, who runs the nonprofit J. Craig Venter Institute in Rockville, Md., has been a pioneer in genomics. He is best known for sequencing the human genome in a race with the publicly funded Human Genome Project. The method his team used was novel at the time, but is now widely accepted. It turned out that the genome his team sequenced was his own, making Dr. Venter the first person to have his complete DNA sequence published.

Some activist groups say Dr. Venter is going too far, too fast, this time, and that the entire field of synthetic biology needs outside regulation to prevent the introduction of dangerous organisms, created either by evil intent or by innocent error.

“The fact that he’s pushing ahead with this without any societal oversight is very worrying,” said Jim Thomas, a program manager at the ETC Group, an activist group based in Canada. He also said it was worrisome that Dr. Venter was applying for very broad patents that could give him a near monopoly over the field of synthetic organisms.

Dr. Venter said the synthetic biology field has been discussing ethics and safety steps since it started and that his work had been reviewed by ethicists.

In the new genome, he said, one gene was changed to make any resulting organism non-infective. (Mycoplasma genitalium, which can be transmitted sexually, is associated with inflammation, though its exact role in causing disease is not well understood.)

The team also added some DNA segments to the genome to serve as “watermarks,” allowing scientists to distinguish the synthetic genome from the natural one.

That raises new possibilities of using microbes as a method of communication. Dr. Venter said the watermarks contain coded messages. Sleuths will have to determine the amino acid sequence coded for by the watermarks, in order to decipher the message. “It’s a fun thing that has a practical application,” he said.

The constitution is an instrument of a human government. Humans were created with free will. Governments are free to do what the will and reap the benefits or consequences.

The better question is, “Should a Christian be part of human governments?”

What does the Bible say?

“All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness,”
2Timothy 3:16

“Adulteresses, do YOU not know that the friendship with the world is enmity with God?”
James 4:4

“Do not be loving either the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him;”
1John 2:15

“If YOU were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because YOU are no part of the world, but I have chosen YOU out of the world, on this account the world hates YOU.”
John 15:19

“They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.”
John 17:16

Christ set the example that must be followed by those serving God:

“In fact, to this [course] YOU were called, because even Christ suffered for YOU, leaving YOU a model for YOU to follow his steps closely.”
1Peter 2:21

“Then I said, ‘Look! I am come (in the roll of the book it is written about me) to do your will, O God.’””
Hebrews 10:7

“Jesus said to them: “My food is for me to do the will of him that sent me and to finish his work.”
John 4:34

“because I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me.”
John 6:38

“Hence when the men saw the signs he performed, they began to say: “This is for a certainty the prophet that was to come into the world.”Therefore Jesus, knowing they were about to come and seize him to make him king, withdrew again into the mountain all alone.”
John 6:14, 15

Let's hope the Prez. Bush serves as a deterrent for electing another bible-toting, bible-quoting into the White House.

He is crazy, is it not why we instituted a constitution.

I think he needs to check his Meds.

Huckabee is exactly right. I agree with him 100%. America has tried so hard to make this world operate the way that we want it to when God is the creator of the universe and everything in it. He established an order a long time ago and people seem to think it's all about them. Starting with Lucifer and Adam and Eve and so on. Arrogance, Stupidity, Self-Gratification or whatever the problem is it needs to stop and we need to do things God's way. And that way can only be found in the Holy Scriptures of the Bible.

" There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof is DEATH AND DESTRUCTION." Looks like a lot of death and destruction is

going on in the world right now seems as if God's way was the right way. Hugh, it's a shame that people aren't getting it. God doesn't want us to be trapped, or locked up or not free to do anything. With God there is plenty of Freedom, just don't step outside of the boundaries. There should be boundaries in every relationship and everything we do. When you go off and do what you want to do when you want to do it and how you want to do it, death and destruction is near. That's just it. Look at the War, look at the Holocaust, look at Slavery, look at the Abortionist, look at the murderers and sexual preditors out there. That way seemed right unto man but death and destruction.........

Mike Hucabee is totally correct. The problem in this country is that it no longer wants to hear how wrong it is based on the word of God the only true and living God who gave His Son Jesus to die for the sins of the world,then raised him for the dead so that whosoever would believe in him shall have eternal life.

But with some to talk about Jesus is taboo. I don't believe in trying to force my beliefs on people but I will tell them the truth and then its up to them to listen and accept that turth, that Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father,but I'm also sick and tired of people who are unbelievers trying to force their ungodly way of life on the Christain believer. Nothing would be said in a negative way about this if it were someone who believes there is no god, or someone who is a buddist,or muslim running for president and saying they wanted to change the contitution to reflect there belief. But let anyone that is a Christian boldy procliam there faith and it is as I said taboo. I tell you this, someday every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord of all. The sad thing about it though is that many who have not believed will not gain eternal salvation. But understand this it will be hard to be an unbeliever burning in HELL.
Thanks. R.D. Milton

Mike Hucabee is totally correct. The problem in this country is that it no longer wants to hear how wrong it is based on the word of God the only true and living God who gave His Son Jesus to die for the sins of the world,then raised him for the dead so that whosoever would believe in him shall have eternal life.

But with some to talk about Jesus is taboo. I don't believe in trying to force my beliefs on people but I will tell them the truth and then its up to them to listen and accept that turth, that Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father,but I'm also sick and tired of people who are unbelievers trying to force their ungodly way of life on the Christain believer. Nothing would be said in a negative way about this if it were someone who believes there is no god, or someone who is a buddist,or muslim running for president and saying they wanted to change the contitution to reflect there belief. But let anyone that is a Christian boldy procliam there faith and it is as I said taboo. I tell you this, someday every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord of all. The sad thing about it though is that many who have not believed will not gain eternal salvation. But understand this it will be hard to be an unbeliever burning in HELL.
Thanks. R.D. Milton

Mike Hucabee is totally correct. The problem in this country is that it no longer wants to hear how wrong it is based on the word of God the only true and living God who gave His Son Jesus to die for the sins of the world,then raised him for the dead so that whosoever would believe in him shall have eternal life.

But with some to talk about Jesus is taboo. I don't believe in trying to force my beliefs on people but I will tell them the truth and then its up to them to listen and accept that turth, that Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father,but I'm also sick and tired of people who are unbelievers trying to force their ungodly way of life on the Christain believer. Nothing would be said in a negative way about this if it were someone who believes there is no god, or someone who is a buddist,or muslim running for president and saying they wanted to change the contitution to reflect there belief. But let anyone that is a Christian boldy procliam there faith and it is as I said taboo. I tell you this, someday every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord of all. The sad thing about it though is that many who have not believed will not gain eternal salvation. But understand this it will be hard to be an unbeliever burning in HELL.
Thanks. R.D. Milton

If the intermix of religion and government is such a good idea, how come there is not one shining example of such a society throughout the entire history of mankind? Everywhere and every time government and religion mix, it leads to tyranny and oppression.

“What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; in many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient allies.” -- James Madison addressed to the Virginia General Assembly, June 20, 1785.

The Huckster's statement speaks volumes to his lack of qualification for the office.

He is code-talking to the evangelicals and born-agains, saying I'm your man, gays and women are antithetical to godliness.

Even if he believes that he can incite some sort of dissatisfaction with the current state of the constitution, what would he propose to change? The bill of rights? Women's suffrage?

Or perhaps, like fortune cookies where one adds "between the sheets" to the end of each phrase, the Huckster would add "under God" after each statement or "in accordance with the Bible", or " so said Jesus, so say we all"

Presidents don't amend the constitution. States do. If he thinks that this is on any Governor's or Legislature's top ten list, he needn't wonder why he won't get the nomination. He can go "stick to his principles" outside of the national political arena all he wants.

He can't be that stupid. I've seen him in the debates and he's not as outright stupid as GWB. He's pandering and code-talking and because of that he puts himself out of any serious contention.

--FIUS

"anonymous" below is Levent Alkan, from Asia Minor.

God and the Constitution

Presidential candidate Mike Huckabee says "we need . . . to amend the Constitution so it's in God's standards rather than try to change God's standards so it lines up with some contemporary view." What do you think?

to speak of God's Standards, we need to know His language. or at least we need to know how the Constitution had been printed.

so we may Stand and Ward with What we know from God. we shall move with instruments considering as temporary, this shall ease our minds to change what we have in our hands.

Ahmed,

"Keeping God out of it", sayest you. OK.

Our War on Terror and aggression:

An update ( or how are we spending USA taxpayers’ money to eliminate global terror)

A Partial Body Count

1) 9/11, 3000 mostly US citizens, 1000’s injured

2) The 24/7 Sunni-Shiite centuries-old blood feud currently being carried out in Iraq, 4000 US troops and 80,381-87,792 Iraqi civilians http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

3) Kenya- In Nairobi, about 212 people were killed and an estimated 4000 injured; in Dar es Salaam, the attack killed at least 11 and wounded 85.[2]

4) Bali-in 2002-killing 202 people, 164 of whom were foreign nationals, and 38 Indonesian citizens. A further 209 people were injured.

5) Bali in 2005- Twenty people were killed, and 129 people were injured by three bombers who killed themselves in the attacks.

6) Spain in 2004- killing 191 people and wounding 2,050.

7) UK in 2005- The bombings killed 52 commuters and the four radical Islamic suicide bombers, injured 700.

Other elements of our War on Terror:

1. Saddam, his sons and major henchmen have been deleted. Saddam's bravado about WMD was one of his major mistakes.

2. Iran is being been contained. (beside containing the Sunni-Shiite civil war in Baghdad, that is the main reason we are in Iraq. And yes, essential oil continues to flow from the region.)

3. Libya has become almost civil. Apparently this new reality from an Islamic country has upset OBL and his “crazies” as they recently threatened Libya. OBL sure is a disgrace to the world especially the Moslem world or is he!!!

4. North Korea is still uncivil but is contained. With the opening up of rail traffic between North and South Korea after 50 years and with the assistance of the US Navy in retrieving NK ships and personnel, a fresh sense of civility is afoot.

5. Northern Ireland is finally at peace.

6. The Jews and Palestinians are being separated by walls. Hopefully the walls will follow the 1948 UN accords and the Annapolis Peace Conference is at least somewhat successful.

7. Bin Laden has been cornered under a rock in Western Pakistan since 9/11.

8. Fanatical Islam has basically been contained to the Middle East but a wall between India and Pakistan would be a plus for world peace. Ditto for a wall between Afghahistan and Pakistan.

9.Timothy McVeigh was executed. Terry Nichols will follow soon.

10. Eric Rudolph is spending three life terms in prison with no parole.

11. Jim Jones, David Koresh, Kaczynski, the "nuns" from Rwanda, and the KKK were all dealt with and either eliminated themselves or are being punished.

12. Islamic Sudan, Darfur and Somalia are still terror hot spots.

13. Although a bit dated, the terror and torture of Muslims in Bosnia, Kosovo and Kuwait were ended by the proper application of the military forces of the USA and her freedom-loving friends.

14. And of course the bloody terror brought about the Japanese, Nazis and Communists was with great difficulty eliminated by the good guys.

Keep God out of it. Consider your tax dollars paid for a president who lied to you and we all knew it and still continues to lie. Given half the chance he will create another war and millions of refugees and death of the innocents.

Do you lot have a conscience?

How much proof you need? Here is the latest:
http://wiredispatch.com/news/?id=14555

Can you now choose someone who can serve your interests instead of inheriting Israel's enemies and someone who can demand accountability for your tax dollars paid to foreign countries. Someone who is an impartial judge when it comes to settling disputes. And someone who steers away from building your economy on the back of corporations especially those who produce WMD? Coz you know for mass production of weapons you will need consumption and what better way than to create demand by going to endless wars and for that you would need to create enemies and what better way than to inherit someone else's enemies.

Cut loose from bondage. Speak the truth and see yourself as ONE with all other nations. Declare you have no enemies. Declare you want friendship with all nations. Extend the hand of friendship to all people. Stop meddling in other people's affairs and know that your interests are exactly the same as others'. There is no need to go to war with nations to preserve 'your' interests.

Everyone wants happiness and is in the pursuit of happiness. Just like you. Why do you let yourself be convinced that some Arab or Muslim guy is your enemy. That I am your enemy? Who says so? What have I done to you?

So, go and select a leader who speaks the truth. And the truth is that we are ALL one and that despite our differences we have a lot more in common as a human race.

THIS IS TIMELY AND NEWSWORTHY. WHAT KEEPS WAPO/NEWSWEEK FROM INFORMING US?

An Afghan journalist has been SENTENCED TO DEATH by a provincial court for distributing "blasphemous" material.

Sayed Perwiz Kambakhsh, 23, was arrested in 2007 after downloading material from the internet relating to the ROLE OF WOMEN in Islamic societies.

A primary court in Balkh province said that Kambakhsh had confessed to blasphemy and had to be punished.

The court also threatened to ARREST ANY REPORTER WHO PROTESTED against Kambakhsh's sentence.

Kambakhsh, a student at Balkh University and a journalist for Jahan-e Naw (New World), was arrested in October 2007 after material he downloaded was DEEMED TO BE OFFENSIVE to Islam.

Shamsur Rahman, the head of the court, told Reuters news agency: "According to... the Islamic law, Sayed Perwiz is SENTENCED TO DEATH at the first court.

"However, he will go through three more courts to declare his last punishment," he said.

Balkh province's deputy attorney general, Hafizullah Khaliqyar, WARNED OTHER JOURNALISTS that they would be arrested if they attempted to support Kambakhsh.

But Agence France-Presse reported that journalists were gathering outside the home of the condemned reporter.

The sentence has been welcomed by conservative Islamic clerics in Afghanistan but criticised by international human rights groups.

Global media watchdog Reporters Without Borders said it was "DEEPLY SHOCKED" by the trial and appealed to President Hamid Karzai to INTERVENE "before it is too late".

In a statement, the group said the trial was "carried out in haste and without any concern for the law or for free expression, which is protected by the constitution".

"Kambakhsh did not do anything to justify his being detained or being given this sentence."

Kambakhsh's brother, Sayed Yaqub Ibrahimi, said the verdict was "VERY UNFAIR" and appealed for HELP from the international community, reported Reuters.

No "foreign aid"!!!

Mr. Huckabee is wrong-headed.

"Our Constitution makes no mention whatever of God. The omission was too obvious to have been anything but deliberate, in spite of Alexander Hamilton's flippant responses when asked about it: According to one account, he said that the new nation was not in need of "foreign aid"; according to another, he simply said "we forgot." But as Hamilton's biographer Ron Chernow points out, Hamilton never forgot anything important."
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20050221/allen

To Annette:

"both versions of creation"???

"There are probably in excess of 500 different creation stories among the world's religion that account for the diversity of life forms on Earth. All of the stories are different." http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev_denom.htm

You must be referring to the Flying Spaghetti Monster and one of the other 500+?
http://www.venganza.org/

D writes: “The Constitution guarantees not only fredom OF religion but freedom FROM religion.”

The Constitution does not guarantee a Freedom of Religion nor a Freedom from Religion. The Constitution simply says that the government will not establish any test, requirement, or expectation of Faith on any man.

The Second Amendment, from which the Freedom of Religion is taken, is a list of things the government cannot do. It does not limit what individuals or groups not affiliated with the government can do. The government is NOT empowered to ensure that our society is secular. The only power granted to government is that it treat every person of every faith and every non-believer equally.

As for Huckabee, his comments on a religious constitutional amendment are so vague as to be meaningless. It was designed to excite people who are easily excitable.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right og the people to peaceably assemble, and to petition the redress of grievances." First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.

I am a strong advocte of seperation of church and state and feel that religion should in no way determine the running of the government. It is against our right. I find it disturbing that canidates so openly attempting to erase this right, are pressing the Second Amendment. It sounds like some of these canidates, Huckabee included are preparing for a Holy War.

As a conservative, thoughtful Christian I am appalled at Gov Huckabee's reported call to somehow mold the US Constitution into a form more in line with "God's Word" or some such nonsense. For those who have not yet heard,
The US Constitution is man's best attempt to date to govern himself, and designed specifically to help men manage men. The US Constitution is also designed to NOT permit some pol's blurry religious blueprint to dominate politics and establish God's rule over our nation.
I am quite content having religion and government separate - any time man has tried to combine the two, weirdness and disaster have been the result. Devout people become corrupted political animals, and politicians become pandering weasels whose words become LESS believable, not more so. Have we still not learned this from history?
I can not help thinking that those in political power at the time crucified Jesus Christ and thought they were doing the right thing at the time. Thinking you can somehow correct this problem (of crucifying an innocent man) by legislating holy days is absurd, and does not bode well for the future of this land. Trying to do so seems a very weak and selfish sort of non-working "solution."
Keep religion out of politics - I know that sounds corny, but it works and will continue to work for us and against our enemies. This means we have to refrain from asking a candidate about his sect's beliefs; eschew holier-than-thou type debates, where canned questions are as relevant as "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?"; and decline to answer political interrogatories about your "Come to Jesus moment."
That we have such little faith that we buy into junk the candidates spew at us daily is a testament to both our faith and our naivete.
Keep your faith by refusing to ride your religion into public office. Those seeking to quicken the Kingdom of God on Earth by political paths or shortcuts are not only betraying themselves and their God, they are taking the rest of us down with them.

I like Huckabee. I like how he holds on to his religious values and is not ashamed to voice his opinions and how he applies his religious teachings to everyday solutions. I especially loved his answer to evolution and when asked gave his honest opinion.
I think the science books in grade schools should be rewritten to include both versions of creation. Watch for the new movie "Expelled" coming out in Feb. and see what I mean.

Religious values should help an individual shape an existential framework, a "glass" through which he or she can assess the social, political and economic reality and take individual action. It can not be the bases for the formulation for State legislation or policies. If that would be the case Michigan could be the very first state in our country to enact Shariah Law in the State Penal Code based on the density and preponderance of the Muslim population there. The constitution is FINE the way it is. It points to a democracy based on the rule of the people, ALL of the people, and not just of the executive branch. Christina beliefs have to be part of the identity of the individual but should not be the sole identifier. In such cases we would revert to the bronze age and tribal societies as it is the case in many countries.

I think Huckabee is a complete crackpot. What else is there to think?

I don't know which bothers me more; that we still have people like Huckabee who would rewrite the Constitution based on their personal religious views, or that we still have a sufficient number of voters who would elect someone like this (and Bush, and ...) to positions of power.

How much blood must be spilled and how many lives must be lost before we, as a race of supposedly intelligent beings, figure out that religious beliefs carried to extreme will forever keep us at war with one another and from living in peace?

Arguably, the two most important and critical pieces of the Bill of Rights are the first and second Amendments (i.e., freedom OF and FROM religion and the right to bear arms). As long as there are those who would rob of us of the first, we will continue to need the second.

I don't know which bothers me more; that we still have people like Huckabee who would rewrite the Constitution based on their personal religious views, or that we still have a sufficient number of voters who would elect someone like this (and Bush, and ...) to positions of power.

How much blood must be spilled and how many lives must be lost before we, as a race of supposedly intelligent beings, figure out that religious beliefs carried to extreme will forever keep us at war with one another and from living in peace?

Arguably, the two most important and critical pieces of the Bill of Rights are the first and second Amendments (i.e., freedom OF and FROM religion and the right to bear arms). As long as there are those who would rob of us of the first, we will continue to need the second.

I'd rather have indecency than be thrown in prison for not being able to recite the Bible from memory.

Sounds to me like Huckabee's got some 'splaining to do. Not that anything he could say could make this comment any better.

The man is a joke- and just proved that he does not have the intellectual capacity to be the leader of the free world. The fact that he's even gotten this far is alarming to me.. but maybe this is what it takes to realize that the theocratic emperor has no clothes.

The Constitution guarantees not only fredom OF religion but freedom FROM religion. America is made up of more than one religious sect. Whose vision of god should the Constitution be amended to match? The Methodist god? The Baptist god? The catholic god? The Eastern Orthodox god? The Muslim god? Bush's god? Huckabee's god? Obama's god? If god is smart, he'd stay well out of America right now.

Huck's statement is an old debater's trick - a false dichotomy with one half so absurd you accept the alternative without realizing you've been had. No on is asking anyone to bend God's standards to any contemporary view. Merely to accept that not all of God's standards can be incorporated into the Constitution of a pluralist nation not all of whose members share the same faith in the same god. Don't think abortion is in line with God's law? Don't have one. You and your God are just fine. Want to jail anyone who does? That requires a consensus not dependent on faith-based premises (regardless of how many hold it for faith reasons - that's fine and dandy) that abortion is murder, such that it would be appropriate for legislators to impose that view on all, just as we do murder after birth. No such consensus exists, therefore we have not seen fit to ban abortion (for the purposes of this post, ignore Roe v Wade, which is a different subject).

The US Constitution and its Bill of Rights already are the Standards of the Singularity and Humankind. And these Standards provide a shining beacon for backward, Dark Age, Islamic theocracies to someday follow.

And comments like those of "Preacher Huck" will also be discarded in the future by the enveloping knowledge concerning the errors in the foundations of all religions.

Better qustion:

WHO'S DECENCY? THE CLINTON'S?

Who's sense of honesty or reason or caring. Hillary's?

Who's moral compass? Bills? (hahahaha,right)

Ayatollah Huckabee wants a theocracy. Big surprise.

Theocracy is TEXTBOOK tyranny.