Readers’ Responses to Our Question (139)

I just read a response by Romney in an interview on Hannity and Colmes about the question of leaving out non-believers in his speech on religion.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,316687,00.html

I was glad he at least mentioned non-believers and further explained his position.

I don't agree completely with what he says, but I felt he was more inclusive of all brothers and sisters in this country. I think now he is more in line with what Obama said in a speech I watched on Obama's campaign site.

My initial feelings on the speech linger, I wish he was inclusive from the start.

Of course, I wish he said the seperation of church and state in goverment is absolute, more like Kennedy said.

I don't mind religion in public but I want it limited in government. I don't know where to draw that line.

Even though I don't believe in the supernatural or people coming back from the dead, we still say 'Merry Christmas' and have a manger in our house, and read our children the bible, during this holiday season.

But then again, we refer to stories from many traditions to our family.

god Bless Us, "Every One"!

I wanted to comment on the post about the Mormon stance on women. I joined the church at the age of 20 and was quickly offended at the way Mormons seemed to oppress women. So I spent some time researching and trying to understand these beliefs a little more clearly. I soon realized that the Mormon church in no way oppresses women. Quite the contrary. The church actually teaches that women are highly valued in the eyes of God. Women are almost held on a pedistol of respect. Women are encouraged to stay at home with their children to strengthen the family. For the same reason that Dr. Laura Sclessinger (who is not Mormon) or any other conservative family oriented person does. Because only the love, compassion, and strength of the woman can keep a strong family. And family is the most important structure on this earth, according to the church. Also, a woman is only encouraged to follow the council of her husband if he is a good and faithful man who is following God, and she is never encouraged to blindly follow him, but to act as a "help meet" or partner to him. Women are encouraged to get educations, to serve, to be independant strong thinking women. From the founding of the church, before women had the right to vote in this country, the Mormon church established an all women organization--operated by women. The Relief Society is one of the largest women's organizations in the world and has been responsible for countless relief efforts--all headed up by women. Now, I cannot speak for any individual members or families, as we all have choices and I do not doubt that there are some unrightous men out there who do not treat their women as the church would have them be treated (I havbe heard the President of the church, Gordon B. Hinckley, chastise these men numerous times). In reality, I can say that I have been to several churches in my life and there is no church in the world that teaches more love and respect for women than the Mormon church.Anyone who thinks otherwise is simply ignorant and not listening, as I once was. I would like to encourage the person who wrote that post to actually investigate the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and see for themselved the truth of the treatment of women by the church itself.

TO ANDY LONDON, UK:

In meeting God, God the Father came into my heart and I just knew that it was Him, He didn't say a word, He didn't have to.

God the Holy Spirit came into my body and He didn't say a word either but He did speak thru me in response to a question I was asked and also He revealed to me that the Catholic Eucharist is Jesus.

A couple of hours after meeting the Holy Spirit, satan came down not up and I could feel the evil. For the next 24+ hours except for when it got too intense, there was a battle going on, it is hard to put into any exact words.

It wasn't at first but I did hear satan's voice and like Jesus said satan is an accuser. Some of what he said was partly true but that is a sign of a liar, the twistation of the truth, a partial truth is a lie. What he said about me was one thing but he should not have bad-mouthed others.

One of the things that he said was that I sold my soul to the devil, of course he never admitted who he was, but actually it was more like I gave it away.

Before these things happened, I had in my own way went to God in prayer and declared myself guilty, this is kind of a simplified version but my whole life actually led up to this.

I never expected to meet God and to say the least it came as quite a shock and then when I battled satan a few short hours later for 24+ hours, words can't convey.

Not then but now I am grateful that God allowed satan to do what he did and I am also grateful that I experienced hell and spiritual death but I sure wasn't at the time.

It was right after the 24+ hours that I experienced hell and spiritual death and to say that I was totally devastated would be an understatement because there are no words to put this in.

I don't know if you have ever heard of the apostle's creed but in it, it says that Jesus decended into hell, well guess what Jesus, God-Incarnate, went to hell and experienced the worst pangs of hell, he took the sin and the sins of the entire human race upon Himself and some of these hypocrites that call themselves "christian" don't have a clue about God, all they know about Him is His Name.

God's Plan is His Plan, when Jesus said, "Father forgive them, they know not what they do", them means just that, "them" everyone. They still do not know what they are doing, do they?

I had to go thru what I did, you could say that it is part of the job that God chose me for.

We will all be judged whether we like it or not, that is also part of what being made in the Image and Likeness of God is about.

It is not about a formula, it is not about magic, it is about the Mysterious Plan of God.

A lot of people are in for a big surprise, some pleasantly, some unpleasantly but ultimately all is well. I have said before and I say again, God is a searcher of hearts and minds not of religious affiliations or lack thereof, something to think about.

There is no hiding, not behind your religion, not behind your holy books, it is important what you do and why you do it and what you know.

I hope I have answered your inquiry.

Remember God wins, satan loses, a tie is unacceptable.

Take care, be ready, see you in the Kingdom, the seventh day will get here but night is coming first.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Hi Thomas

When you say you met god and satan, was it in your mind or was it actually in person? Please can you tell me what they look like and what they sound like?

Andy
London, UK

HI VICTORIA:

Thanks for reading what I wrote.

I have said before and I say again, God is a searcher of hearts and minds, not of religious affiliations or lack thereof and also it is important what you do and why you do it and also what you know.

When I write on these posts whether I address it to one or to all of humanity, it is for all.

The bible can lead you to God but as you can probably see from some of the postings, that is not necessarily going to happen.

God is Love, a Being of Pure Love. God came up with His Plan of Salvation for All Of Humanity because since He is God, He knew that not all would repent.

Repenting, the way that I see it is taking responsibility for what you have done. I can't speak for anyone else but I know that I have done wrong.

The idea that Almighty God, Who created the entire universe and all that is in it in both the spiritual and material world, would become a human being is so mind-boggling that I can see why people would have a hard time believing it.

Plenty of people sure do try to put God in a box of their own creation when to say the least He is not the petty tryant that some seem to want Him to be.

I have met God and I know that I don't know everything but I don't have too, I am just a messenger. Even God-Incarnate did not know everything since He emptied Himself to become one of us but He did keep the very Essence of God which is why I also call Him, Love-Incarnate.

I am not trying to convince anyone of anything but I am just trying to do the job that God gave to me.

I have met God and God is a Trinity and I have also met satan and satan is not nice at all. satan also used the bible, verbatim, when he tempted Jesus so satan knows the words in the bible better than any human being but as Jesus told us, satan by his very nature is a liar and a thief.

It seems that a lot of people are going to be surprised to find out that God is not the egomaniac that some try to present Him to be.

Jesus was just being truthful when He said, "I Am the Way, the Truth and the Life no one comes to the Father except thru Me".

Plenty of people twist that statement by changing "the Father" to "God" and also by not seeing that Jesus doesn't say that there is only one way to Him.

God says more to us than we sometimes see when we only scratch the surface.

Some people that do not believe that Jesus is Who He is are followers of Him and there are others who believe that Jesus is Who He is and yet are not followers but claim to be.

God has a Plan and it is for All of His Creation and His Plan will come to Fruition.

I did mention before that I was taught in second grade that we are all equal in God's Eyes and that is one of the most important things that I was ever taught.

Also I was taught in second grade that God is Love and I found out that that statement was quite literal when God the Father came into my heart.

Take care, be ready, see you in the Kingdom.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

no one mentioned islam lib-
why are you being such a pikey?

again thanks mr baum-
you have a good heart and i like what you've said

again, i hope you dont feel i was picking on you, or trying to malign christianity-
i wasnt

its just an honest question i was reminded of when someone said the constitution was inspired by the bible-

and i thought, "where?"

but its an old question ive thought before
peace

Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,

Are you feeling guilty about leaving your Christian religion? Are you trying to convince yourself that Islam somehow is a more socially responsible religion? Exactly what is your problem? You might also want to read some of the Papal encyclicals that deal with social justice/equality. e.g. http://www.justpeace.org/docu.htm

A sampling:

Rerum Novarum (On the Condition of Workers) This encyclical of Leo XIII is considered by later popes to be the foundational social justice teaching document of the modern era. Issued in 1891, it was a response to the changed conditions brought on by the Industrial Revolution.

Quadragesimo Anno (On the Reconstruction of the Social Order) Issued in 1931, Pius XI reflects on the response of the Church and the World to Rerum Novarum, 40 years after Leo's document was promulgated.

Mater et Magistra (Christianity and Social Progress) Issued by Pope John XXIII in 1961, this encyclical proposes methodologies for the application of Catholic teaching to concrete issues.

(And again note the synopsis of the flaws in all the major religions and use those as a starting point for your search for the reality of it all)

the question was and is-

"the question is, where in the bible does it make any statements or exhortations for social equality-
where does it say people are equal? races gender etc?"

hi mr baum-

in response to your cited scripture-

the whole text-
this is applicable ONLY to describe the realtionship betweeen BAPTIZED CHRISITANS AMONGST THEMSELVES-

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GALATIANS
27 For all of YOU WHO WERE BAPTIZED INTO CHRIST have clothed yourselves with Christ.
28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free person, there is not male and female; FOR YOU ARE ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS.
29
And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendant, heirs according to the promise.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

so, the saying is flanked before and after with references to THOSE IN CHRIST
and applies specifically to them- no all of mankind in any way

it is reinforced next chapter by this-
"here" being the christian community
CORINTHIANS

11 Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, 7 slave, free; but Christ is all and in all.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

that is not to say mr baum that i do not appreciate your broad and open heart - as i do.

but clearly, both verses apply only to baptized christians in the community- NOT all of mankind.

LIB- NO ONE MENTIONED MUSLIMS YOU GOOFY PIKEY

Hmmm, strange that Mitt has not been castigated about the Mormon views toward women.

From: www.exmormon.org/mormwomn.htm

"Many religions have recently begun changing in an attempt to equalize the roles and responsibilities of men and women. Mormonism is one of the exceptions. The Mormon position on women has changed little since the early 1800's, when the official view was that "woman's primary place is in the home, where she is to rear children and abide by the righteous counsel of her husband" (McConkie 844). This attitude, coupled with the doctrine of polygamy and the absolute power claimed by the men of the church, created a legacy of profound sexism which modern Mormonism has been unable to escape.

Mormonism has created an ingenious system of oppression, in which opposition towards men is tantamount to arguing with God. The Mormon religion makes no distinction between clergy and laity, at least with regard to men (Laake 9). All Mormon men are ordained as members of the "priesthood," with the absolute authority to preach the gospel, bestow blessings, prophecy, perform healings and baptisms, and generally speak for God. "Their priesthood gives them the right to advise and instruct the Saints (i.e., Mormons), and their jurisdiction extends over all things spiritual and temporal" (Snowden 134).

At age twelve, boys become members of the Aaronic, or lesser priesthood, and at nineteen become eligible for the Melchezedek, or higher priesthood. Members of either priesthood are higher authorities on everything than are non-members. Women are, of course, excluded from the priesthood. This practice in effect says that a woman's prepubescent son is more qualified to advise her than she is to advise him. The official explanation is that women are kept from having the priesthood because women are more spiritual than men, therefore, men need to have the priesthood to teach them how to be better people (Johnson 86). Women are also told that, because they have the all- important ability to bear children, men need the power of the priesthood merely to remain equal with them."

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_and_Mormonism

A more balanced view???

OK, you Mormons out there, what sayest thou? Please however do not invoke St. Paul's views on women. Professor Bruce Chilton in his book, Rabbi Paul has already addressed that situation.

To wit:

Professor Chilton pulls no punches in criticizing one of the founders of Christianity. Basically Paul was a "prude". An excerpt for Chilton's book,

"He (Paul) feared the turn-on of women's voices as much as the sight of their hair and skin..... At one point he even suggests that the sight of female hair might distract any "pretty wingie talking fictional thingies" in church attendance (1 Cor. 11:10). Simply add Paul's thinking about women to the list of flaws in the foundations of Christianity.

Professor Chilton btw is a Professor of Religion at Bard College and a priest at the Free Church of St. John in Barrytown, NY.

Hmmm, do you think maybe that Mohammed's scribes simply enhanced Paul's thinking about women when they wrote the koran??? Absolutely!!!!

And Deb,

Yes, you are right Mahmud Ghaznavi did destroyed in the begining only those HINDU Temples where WOMEN SCRIFICE was in open and routine practice for so many different reasons.

Would you like me to shed some on record histroy about it.

Let me tell you with hate mongering approach like you Hindu's while keep on killing your baby girls through abortion. InshAllah Muslim will again accede in numbers either by conversions towards TRUTH or by population in Present India in next 50 years!

It's HILARIOUS to watch these neofascist theocrats claw each other to pieces about their imaginary friends. Pop the popcorn, the next year is pure entertainment.

TO HUMANITY:

Paul said something to the effect that, "We are neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female, free nor slave, we are all one in the Lord".

We can continue looking at other people the way that man does or we can look at others the way God does, each an individual human being made in the Image and Likeness of God.

In the above quote Gentile and Greek are interchangeable as in Jew and everyone else.

If people want to look at themselves as superior or inferior to others for any reason then that is their choice but they are only deceiving themselves.

I would like to publicly thank Sister Phillip Marie who taught me in second grade that 'We are all equal in God's Eyes'.

One of the things about being raised in a so-called free society is that you are allowed and encouraged to think, that doesn't necessarily mean that you will, but it is an option.

It does seem that some people like to look to the learned to do their thinking for them, they can be a help but sometimes you have to learn to weed out the garbage.

One day people will find out that God is a lot nicer than some think He is and a lot nicer than some even want Him to be.

Take care, be ready, see you in the Kingdom.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

I agree with Romney that a person should not be elected or rejected because of his faith. I am rejecting him for his record.

Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,

Are you trying to prove that Islamic women are better off than Christian women? Considering the restrictions imposed by the koran on women you are not going to win the debate. I assume your issue is Paul's thinking about women as spelled out in his and the pseudo Paul epistles. I would rate it flawed first century CE thinking/conduct and such passages should be deleted. Also, (as suggested many times) see the discussion of said passages in Professor Crossan and Reed's book, In Search of Paul and in Professor Bruce Chilton's book, Rabbi Paul.

Professor Chilton pulls no punches in criticizing one of the founders of Christianity. Basically he concludes that Paul was a "prude". An excerpt for Chilton's book,

"He (Paul) feared the turn-on of women's voices as much as the sight of their hair and skin..... At one point he even suggests that the sight of female hair might distract any "pretty wingie talking fictional thingies" in church attendance (1 Cor. 11:10). Simply add Paul's thinking about women to the list of flaws in the foundations of Christianity.

Professor Chilton btw is a Professor of Religion at Bard College and a priest at the Free Church of St. John in Barrytown, NY.

Hmmm, do you think maybe that Mo's scribes simply enhanced Paul's thinking about women when they wrote the koran??? Absolutely!!!!

Well, I suppose there is only one question to ask of ourselves is and that question is, "Am I my brother's and sister's keeper ?". Some of these so-called Christians keep nothing but what is in the collection plates after one of those damning sermons.

Look at life in the United States today. We have a threat of terrorism, acceleration of conventional and non-conventential weapons, more drugs, more drug addicts and guns to keep the supplies flowing. Am not surprised people are snapping and committing mass murder with self homicide.

But you know, everytime someone goes berserk taking innocent lives there are those who say, "Oh yea I knew he was nuts". I ask how could you not help a person suffering ? Is it fear of addicts, alcholics or people with mental illnesses that prevents people to help them ? It is bigotry, sterotyping and discrimination to label someone evil or possessed or deranged just because an illness has been revealed in public. But again I ask as a nation what are we doing for these people ?

And why is the law so messed up that a simple search warrant based on probable cause not gained up front so as not to contaminate law enforcement and judiciary responsiblities ? If a person is a danger to themselves or society most states have laws on the books for law enforcement intervention. There is family intervention and Clergy interventions. Why is it that so-called good christians would reject SCHIPs legislation expanding healthcare to those that need it most. My opinion is that our society cannot afford to expand healthcare with government subsidies. The issue is one very close to public transportation whereby cash box revenues cannot meet normal profit.

I think that some ought to stop preaching and start getting active. The goal is not who can build the biggest church but who can help the most in need.

As far as belief systems goes there needs to be check-n-balance too. I think Bin Laden probably thought 9/11 was God ordained as some must think the invasion of Iraq was God ordained. Or a man says the dog told me to shoot couples or the voices through the walls told me to kill then kill myself or I needed help and I snapped. When the next person snaps who will be there for that person without fear, without judgement or with true faith in the Creator devoid of person ego.

Just for the record, I'm Christian. What happened to 'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"? If you want religious freedom, allow others their religious freedom. Don't demand that ANYONE believe exactly what you believe. Freedom of religion means just that - free to worship as you will, and believe how you will. It does not mean that a leader of the country must believe in 'The Book' (I hope that our president does NOT believe every word in the Bible literally - if so we would be stoning people, keeping women out of school, allowing polygamy, and forcing widows to lie with their husband's brother, among other things).

The Constitution does not mention a specific religion at all. There was a very good editorial in the NY Times on Dec 7 (The Crisis of Faith) about Romney's speech and the country's religious history. I quote some of the article's facts: In God we Trust was put on coins in the 1950's, during McCarthyism; Under God was put in the Pledge of Allegiance around the same time, so neither has anything to do with the Founders' intentions: George Washington himself assured the Jews in Newport that they would be welcome and 'full members' of the country. Let's leave religion in the houses of worship, and government in the capitols.

One non-religion note about Mitt Romney - the national security advisor for his campaign is Cofer Black, the former CIA counter-terrorism chief who is now on the board of Blackwater. Make of that what you will.

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20071224/scahill

ya gotta love jackie henry

Kennedy and Catholicism

Jackie was once quoted as saying
"I don't know why people give Jack a hard time because he's Catholic. He's such a bad Catholic."

actaully lib you're responding to a question i asked in general and mr baum attempted to answer

the question is, where in the bible does it make any statements or exhortations for social equality-
where does it say people are equal? races gender etc?
i already know it doesn't.

as you know ive been discussing the issue form the womens equality perspective on eboo patels americas real power question-

where it also has been avoided and not answered.

mr baum made an effort- and i appreciate his outlook- but its not really an outlook derived from christianity- but from being socialized in a free society-

so, do you know of any scripture that you can post from the bible (old or new) speaks to equality of races, nationalities, or gender?

i already know many that actually speak against it- but its not my intent to degrade or disprove-

it is my intent to give christians the leeway to present their side-

its a personal study investigated many many years ago-
i asked myself the same question a long time ago-

as a christian, i searched with the most open of hearts, willing to accept even the flimsiest of scripture to support equality-

but i found the opposite-

i can widen the question to ask where equality for women occurs-

if its there- it shoud be simple and clear to present it.

Henry: Imagine Washington, Jefferson or Adams running Huckabee's TV ad with "Christian Leader" floating over his head. None of them could get elected dogcatcher today.

Or maybe they could. I wonder if the emperor has no clothes and if a good nonbeliever just said "enough" "I'm a lapsed Catholic and if that's a problem for you, tough." what would actually happen? if you run the thought experiment, the religious right would then be forced to look a bit weird running against him or her. would be interesting at least.

Moody, Moody, Moody,

Again and again you demonstrate your Islamic brainwashing i.e. Islam can do no wrong. Death to those who do not believe in our warmongering, womanizing, hallucinating, illiterate founder and his plagiarizing scribes!!!!

Did Washington, Adams, or Jefferson ever say

"YOu should vote for me because I am a good Christian?"

Note the absurdity in even asking the question?

Having previous given an reply to this question. A persons capability forming a Govt should not be judged on their religious beliefs. And such remains true.(HOWEVER) I must ADD.Circumstances being,if humanity a train then it having become de-railed. Lifting ourselves from the pit which having sunk, will take all nations all people's in a common bond of understanding, all working together, pulling in the same direction. We are in need of spiritual guidance, there no doubt of such. The Lord as Allah, not being blind deaf to our plight. We can but ask for mercy compassion, for the wrongs that done. Yet,The Lord as Allah can only work through those that be more open in heart as brain, therefore such people requiered in leading all nations. Of course it understood one's ability to to quote the bible as koran, be no proof of a open heart as brain. Knowledge of GOD, understanding experience of GOD, not from books scripture's, but from GOD. It be Humanity one family, spending such effort such resources against each other be folly, it be common sense, that needed, bringing, common agreement... .. .

CCNL:

Keep your eyes (if possible mind as well) open:

YOU ARE TRYING TO DEFLECT THE BELOW GIVEN ON GROUND REALITY FACTS BY SAYING, THEY ARE UNSUBSTANTIAL.(Only in your guilty opinion)

WELL YOU CAN AVOID WATCHING YOUR REAL FACE BUT CAN'T HIDE!!!!!!!!

I'm from South East Asia and have been stayed in UK/Europe more than five years. And visiting on/off.

And have first hand experience of what is happening in your societies comparing to ours.

You ONLY compare face appearance of:

-Government Secular or tyrant oppressors (all same in any form).
- And superficial material advance appearance as your yard stick. (Which history is witness that keep on changing sides. And again it is happening, SO WAKE UP).

Your social values, daily abuse and degradation and unjust unbalance laws and there impact on your masses. I have seen FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE!

What are you trying to sell to the world??

Your morality ends up by bombing and destroying other countries by mare accusations and not a single solid proof. You claim your self’s humanists saying we don't hang multi-murderers or multi rapist and free them after double life sentence (i.e., 20 years) after good conduct. As multi killings are just another numbers for you. What if he or she is your own brother or sister then what will you do, tell me honestly? It is not humanist BUT sadism, a Sadist approach. And that is what also reflects in your over all actions also!!
-13% of your population in infected by INCEST.
-Almost same percentage of teenage pregnancies.
-25 million converted sodomites from Christianity.
-Unjust and extremely intervening and discouraging laws about marriage counter productive of general adultery and fornication acceptable in your society.
-Unjust laws about children’s guardian ship.
-Your over all HIGH crime and violence in society, so that every next women get raped in her life (does this reality also says something about your men).
- You as a whole society of weekend violent drunkards, racist and discriminators even in your believes and religions what ever they are.

Which you west love to compare with politically aggravated violence in Muslim world.

SOCIAL VALUES/PRACTICES AND POLITICAL APPEARENCES are 2 different realities.

And I/We thank to God our Muslim societies social realities/practices are mostly according to what we believe in and don't get affected easily and carried away by any Governments Fascist Law!

And that is one of the reason Why Muslims in west even after all the material appearance keep getting back to their roots and lands. BECAUSE THEY ALSO HAVE THE EXPERIENCE OF OTHER SIDE OF THE BEAUTIFUL REALITY OF SOCIALLY INTEGRATED RESPECTFUL BLISSED AND DIGINFIED EQUALLY BALACNED LIFE.

Hi CCNL:

Well guys there is news for you, which some of you might already have:

- Iran has switched all its Oil business to Euro. No more Dollar MONOPOLY.
- Middle East countries are also planning for single currency.

I AM NOW WONDERING WHICH COUNTRIES ARE THE IMMEDIATE TARGET FOR FURTHER PRE-IMPTIVE STRICKS QUICKLY BY USA TO FUTHER DESTROY THE WEPONS OF MASS DISTRUCTION AND TO NEUTRALIZE THE TERRORISOM OF THE NATIONS WITH SUCH ANTI US BELIEVES OF FREEDOM (FREEDOM OF US CONTROL).

So far US has neutralized its national security threat from Iraq the 3rd biggest oil exporter and it is flowing without any possible near future threat.

Even then US currency / mortgage / stock exchange / international market are getting worse every passing moment and counting there last good days!!!!!

Now US is really pissed off by the terrorists and expected to rage another more vicious phase of war against them very soon!!!!

BINLADIN MUST BE FOUND !!!
IF TALIBAN AFGAN GOVERNMENT WITH LAND SLIDING MAJORITY ASKS FOR THE EVIDENCE, REPLY TO PAKISTAN AND BOMB AFGANISTAN!
BARBARIC FUNDAMENTALIST DARING TO ASK USA, HUH!!

Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,

Hmmm, different authors, one message?

Finally you see the one message in "Love thy neighbor as thyself"!!!!!

Now if you could only see the one message in "Until the koran is "deflawed", no one is safe"!!!

as noted by the following authors:

The seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic train bombers in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani koranics, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, the Filipino koranics,
the warmongering, koranic, Islamic Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

Nation after nation in ( recent) past have voted into power the wrong party the wrong leader,the example France. Present Govt, a party as leader whom wanted only political power. French people giving them such political, in turn the French people being allowed to wollow in the illusion, are not awakened having to face harsh realities. GERMANY the same political folly ITALY the same folly AUSTRALIA as BRITAIN same political folly, etc etc etc...Will it be the same for the USA in it's election for Govt will it be another vote of convenience, the winning party gets political power, as the people returning to their slumber, where again unwilling, face the harsh realities. THE WIDER PICTURE. "AMERICAN PEOPLE" MAY ASK THE QUESTION, IF SUCH AS, FRANCE, AUSTRALIA, ITALY, GERMANY, CANADA, PAKISTAN, CHINA, WON'T FACE REALITY. THEN WHY ? SHOULD AMERICANS... .. .

My question would be: if someone doesn't have the gumption and capacity to figure out that the "Book of Mormon", regardless of their upbringing and traditions, was made up, how could they possible outsmart the neocons and re-claim our country?

mr baum- i dont want to blog the hog here- and get into it-

but that is insufficient for the question-
if it becomes inactive when another question comes along-
ill get back to it-

and yes they were the same things- they are not different things Jesus(ata) said, but different people reporting the same incident.
peace

Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,

I gave listings of appropriate passages then the passages themselves, all of which you could have easily found yourself. But you continue in an attempt to convince us indirectly that the bible is significantly less important and less thorough than the koran. But we know differently don't we!!!!

Bottom line though, all contemporary religions are full of flaws, embellishments and myths. Hopefully when you finally spend the time required to read what contemporary experts in the field have concluded that someday your ideas and attitude towards current organized religious profit centers especially Islam will change.

He certainly changed my mind. Now I'd vote for him.... for pope.

He sure is dreamy though.

--FIUS

TO VICTORIA:

Actually CCNL did not post the same thing three times, they are from different things that Jesus said.

Sometimes in the bible it might seem that God repeats Himself both in the Old Testament when He spoke thru His prophets and in the New Testament when God-Incarnate, Jesus of Nazareth as He was known, walked this earth.

God doesn't do that for His benefit but for ours.

You wrote, "but i cant say that it is an assertion of equality of all people-", in Genesis, basically Page One, it is written, "Let Us make man in our Image and Likeness, and God created man, male and female He created them".

Some of the people that call themselves "christian" really seem to hate page one so much so that they have removed it from their heart.

Not only are male and female different from each other but all human beings are different from each other and since God created all of us and God called it good, something to think about.

It also says that God created woman to be the helpmate of man so it goes hand in hand that man is also to be the helpmate of woman neither one better than the other but co-equals.

If we look out at the world, does it not seem that we are a bunch of childish, as opposed to child-like, human beings trying to get our own way instead of at least trying to live the way that Jesus taught?

Whether one believes that Jesus is God-Incarnate or not, what He taught is not what some people claiming to be "christian" say.

Jesus did say, "I Am the Way, the Truth and the Life no one comes to the Father except thru Me".

When Jesus referred to Himself as "The Way", maybe some "christians" should look at it as the way you should at least attempt to live while on this earth.

As the original apostles said, "These are hard sayings", they did get that right, didn't they?

I am not talking just about one of the things that He said and neither were they.

Also when Jesus said in that statement, "no one comes to the Father except thru Me", He did not say to God but to the Father.

Also when they asked Him how to pray He said when you pray, pray "Our Father" so simple, so direct as in "Our" as in ALL OF HUMANITY'S.

Jesus did say that there is only One Way to the Father but He did not say that there is only one way to Him. Jesus did say that He was God, that is why they accused Him of blasphemy, but He was not being boastful or arrogant about it, just being Truthful.

Another thing that Jesus said was that He would send the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, to guide us into All Truth. Another thing the the Advocate does is to help guide us thru this life.

Remember when someone asked Jesus, "What is Truth?", well that was the wrong question, the question should have been, "Who is Truth?"

God is a Trinity, I have met God. God is Love, Pure Love and one day everyone will know that. God's Plan, which He has had since before creation and is for All of His Creation, will come to Fruition.

Something for all to think about, God is a searcher of hearts and minds not of religious affiliations or lack thereof. Knowing God's Name is not necessarily following Him, considering that some people follow Jesus better that don't even know Who He Is or believe it.

Remember the Beloved that went to the cross to be with Jesus when He was crucified, he loved but did not believe until he went to the empty tomb and saw and believed.

Yet while hanging on the cross Jesus said to the Beloved and to His Mom, "Behold thy Mother, Woman behold thy Son".

Jesus referred to His Mom as Woman at least a couple of times, one at the wedding feast of Cana and also on the cross and in Genesis God said, "I will put enmity between you [satan] and the Woman, something to think about.

The bible really is about a God that not only created us but loves us, All of us, I guess some people would rather that all the warts and imperfections of mankind be removed and the bible be so sugar-coated as to be sickening but it is about us and it is still unfolding.

As I have said before, God wins, satan loses, a tie is unacceptable.

Take care, be ready, see you in the Kingdom, All of you.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

that why i asked where it occurs in the bible lib-
and you reposted the same thing i did 3 times anyway

contribute something or stop being an idiot looking for wrongs that arent there

Brothers $ Sisters...We may find fault in each other, that to be expected. We are all victims of religious brainwashing. Hundreds of years, of such nonsense. Generation after generation put under the constant, unrelentless, brainwashing. We see the end product ATHEIST'S creature's of night, worshiping the void, praiseing darkness. Brothers $ Sisters we must awake, destruction of humanity, will not stop the ATHEIST, once having mastered space flight, they will then seek out destroying all life forms, it per'aps too late for humanity on planet Earth, but together we can stop the Prince of darkness, from invading other worlds ... .. .

Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,

Might want to spend added time looking up proper biblical passages before commenting:

Added references besides Mark 10: 42-45

(1a) Mark 9:33-35 = Matt 18:1,4 = Luke 9:46,48b, (1b) Mark 10:41-45 = Matt 20:24-28, (1c) Matt 23:11, (2) Luke 22:24-27, (3) John 13:1-17;

(1a) Mark 9:33-35

9:33 Then they came to Capernaum; and when he was in the house he asked them, "What were you arguing about on the way?" 34 But they were silent, for on the way they had argued with one another who was the greatest. 35 He sat down, called the twelve, and said to them, "Whoever wants to be first must be last of all and servant of all."

=Matt 18:1,4
18:1 At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?" 2 He called a child, whom he put among them, 3 and said, "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Whoever becomes humble like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

=Luke 9:46,48b
9:46 An argument arose among them as to which one of them was the greatest. 47 But Jesus, aware of their inner thoughts, took a little child and put it by his side, 48 and said to them, "Whoever welcomes this child in my name welcomes me, and whoever welcomes me welcomes the one who sent me; for the least among all of you is the greatest."

(1b) Mark 10:41-45

10:41 When the ten heard this, they began to be angry with James and John. 42 So Jesus called them and said to them, "You know that among the Gentiles those whom they recognize as their rulers lord it over them, and their great ones are tyrants over them. 43 But it is not so among you; but whoever wishes to become great among you must be your servant, 44 and whoever wishes to be first among you must be slave of all. 45 For the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life a ransom for many."

= Matt 20:24-28
20:24 When the ten heard it, they were angry with the two brothers. 25 But Jesus called them to him and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones are tyrants over them. 26 It will not be so among you; but whoever wishes to be great among you must be your servant, 27 and whoever wishes to be first among you must be your slave; 28 just as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life a ransom for many."

(1c) Matt 23:11

The greatest among you will be your servant.

(2) Luke 22:24-27

22:24 A dispute also arose among them as to which one of them was to be regarded as the greatest. 25 But he said to them, "The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those in authority over them are called benefactors. 26 But not so with you; rather the greatest among you must become like the youngest, and the leader like one who serves. 27 For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one at the table? But I am among you as one who serves.

(3) John 13:1-17

13:1 Now before the festival of the Passover, Jesus knew that his hour had come to depart from this world and go to the Father. Having loved his own who were in the world, he loved them to the end. 2 The devil had already put it into the heart of Judas son of Simon Iscariot to betray him. And during supper 3 Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he had come from God and was going to God, 4 got up from the table, took off his outer robe, and tied a towel around himself. 5 Then he poured water into a basin and began to wash the disciples' feet and to wipe them with the towel that was tied around him. 6 He came to Simon Peter, who said to him, "Lord, are you going to wash my feet?" 7 Jesus answered, "You do not know now what I am doing, but later you will understand." 8 Peter said to him, "You will never wash my feet." Jesus answered, "Unless I wash you, you have no share with me." 9 Simon Peter said to him, "Lord, not my feet only but also my hands and my head!" 10 Jesus said to him, "One who has bathed does not need to wash, except for the feet, but is entirely clean. And you are clean, though not all of you." 11 For he knew who was to betray him; for this reason he said, "Not all of you are clean." 12 After he had washed their feet, had put on his robe, and had returned to the table, he said to them, "Do you know what I have done to you? 13 You call me Teacher and Lord--and you are right, for that is what I am. 14 So if I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet. 15 For I have set you an example, that you also should do as I have done to you. 16 Very truly, I tell you, servants are not greater than their master, nor are messengers greater than the one who sent them. 17 If you know these things, you are blessed if you do them.

hi mr baum-
i hadnt noticed that i posted anonymous-
that was victoria in that post you referred to-
oops
actually, where does that statment occur in the bible?

this is all i could find-

"In Mark 10:42-45 Jesus said, "You know that those who are regarded as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be slave of all."

i find this to be a warning against personal arrogance-

but i cant say that it is an assertion of equality of all people-

but i appreciate your effort
peace

TO ANONYMOUS:

On 12-9-2007 at 2:48 AM You Posted, "you wrote-
"Whether or not you believe that Jesus is Who He is or not, remember when Jesus said, "Do not lord it over others as the rulers of this world do", sounds like social-equity, does it not?"

actually mr baum that doesnt speak of social equity to me at all- but simple humility-
but it is still a beautfiul thought no mtter what-".

Maybe that is what humility in action is, believing and trying to live the statement, "We are all equal in God's eyes".

Thank you for the post, we are all in this together.

Take care, be ready, see you in the Kingdom.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

jeferson died for your sin!
jefersonism or christianism?secularism or humanism?they all the same,all none but mankind,all are food eaters and bathroom goers.what is this eternal truth about mankind tells mankind?
1-mankind is hole-y not holy not absolut.
2-mankind does not never not leave his belive in the closet when he/she go public,mankind take his/her belive where ever he/she goes all the way to the governement.
3-the attempet (or the delusion)of trying to separate mankind from his/her belive when he/she go public is no more no less than dividing mankind head into private and public,one at home and another one at the public office!
4-jef or chris both are mankind,both separate themselfs from the true messeage of the creator god of mankind,where the word of the creator god suppose to be the governer.both practice separation of the state from the creator god,both are not for real ,both died for the sin of mankind,there is no diference between the church of christ and the tempel of lord jeferson .
5-there is no way to understand mankind unless you study the book and the constitution of the creator of mankind.
6-in order to understand the history and back ground of mankind you need to refer to the huge reference of the creator of mankind.

It is a complex issue one wishing to attain the ultimate in spiritual development, yet balance that with survival in the material. Where lifes be dependent on the other, it takes many skills to build an home, to keep alive the human form. If an person a good doctor, should then judged on their spiritual beliefs ? answer must be No that the doctors faith religious standing be of no concern. As with politicians, having ability, the moral standing, servants of the people. What important, be justice served on domestic front, as upon the international stage. The ultimate aim of humanity, being with continued spiritual development, comes, Spiritual Enlightenment. The gateway to Spiritual Enlightenment being through the material realm, thus, we having to make the use of all talents, they, spiritual as material. Reality as illusion, truth being all nations all people's, being one family... .. .

MAY be OT, but I don't think it is.

Just watched Tom Brokaw's show on 1968 on the History Channel. I lived thru 1968, and it was a profoundly turbulent year -- but it ended with the Apollo space program circling the moon. THE MOON.

Rational thought & the scientific method got us there. Magical, mystical thought had NOTHING to do with it. Supernatural Great Ooga-Boogas had NOTHING to do with it. Mysterious, indefinable "forces" had NOTHING to do with it. Rational thought and the scientific method had EVERYTHING to do with it.

When I heard Romney PRAISING irrational, magical, mystical thought -- instead of CONDEMNING it as the basic curse of mankind, which it IS -- I KNEW he was just another charlatan.

Irrational, magical, mystical thought should have DIED when we got to the moon. It has just increased. I despair. We are fools.

from M's column today, quoting Jon Krakauer, who wrote a book about the Mormons

Mr. Krakauer can envision a Mormon making an “excellent president.”

“The Mormon approach to family life is amazing, and there are a lot of good things about the faith,” he said. But he worries that “the Mormon Church, while more welcoming, is still not a place that grants women and blacks equal status, and it’s a terrible place to be gay. The leadership is authoritarian, male, white and absolutely intolerant of dissent.”

The problem with Mitt is not his religion; it is his overeager policy shape-shifting. He did not give a brave speech, but a pandering one. Disguised as a courageous, Kennedyesque statement of principle, the talk was really just an attempt to compete with the evolution-disdaining, religion-baiting Huckabee and get Baptists to concede that Mormons are Christians.

“J.F.K.’s speech was to reassure Americans that he wasn’t a religious fanatic,” Mr. Krakauer agreed. “Mitt’s was to tell evangelical Christians, ‘I’m a religious fanatic just like you.’”

The backdrop, he said, is “the wickedly fierce competition between Mormons and Southern evangelicals to convert people.”

The world is globalizing, nuclear weapons are proliferating, the Middle East is seething, but Republicans are still arguing the Scopes trial.

Mitt was right when he said that “Americans do not respect believers of convenience.” Now if he would only admit he’s describing himself.

The Problems are with Romney, NOt Mormons

I agree with my friend Parker.

The Mormon Church is not going to try to unduly influence Romney if he wins, and Romney won't tilt his political positions to please other Mormons.

He doesn't need to.

He will, as he did in the speech, tilt his political statements and positions to please evangelicals.

Basically, a continuation of Bush's taking evangelicals into account in rhetoric and policy.

This speech was almost totally designed to show the evangelicals that he is a good Christian.

Of course he did not disavow his Mormonism. among other things, that would be politically stupid.

But he sure did downplay it, while UP-playing his Christian credentials and the need for a Christian government in this Christian nation that tolerates Jews and Muslims.

ploegh-
how can you come to a site called onfaith-an interfaith discussion blog-
engage in a question that integrates relgion and politics-
and then complain about the subject?

clearly- WE care enough to discuss it-
WAPO cares enuogh to post it-

whay are YOU here?

Enough already! Who cares about religion when it comes to running a government? Competence and integrity count for more than any particular book of very human fables and foibles you happen to enjoy reading or -worse- that you choose to use for personal inspiration. I like reading poetry myself. But please, leave that religious nonsense at home or in your houses of worship. As long as the alleged word of god runs off a very human and fallible printing press (did anyone hear him/her dictate that stuff?), let's leave it out of the discussion. Religion very, very bad!

ANONYMOUS...One cannot bring the (BBC) BRITISH BROADCASTING ORGANIZATION to account, it being so powerful. It's funding by public, be enforced by law, giving it an yearly income of $billions. British political parties, for their part given free access to the BBC it an platform spinning out the hourly, daily, political cunning deceit. Their appearances earn large amounts for party coffers, as individual members. The public whom funding the BBC but brushed out of the picture.

Romney either ignorant or a disingenuous panderer

Mitt Romney was either disingenuous or woefully ignorant of the intent of our nation's founders and the constitution that governs us when he explained his religious beliefs on December 6. While he played lip service to "separation of church and state," he indicated that he did not intend to abide by it.

Romney stated, "The founders proscribed the establishment of a state religion, but they did not countenance the elimination of religion from the public square." He is parroting the false claim of the evangelicals to whom he is pandering. The intent of our founders was to prevent religion from receiving special treatment from our government. The First Amendment decrees, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion." It does not state establishment of a religion (i.e., state religion), but establishment of religion--in other words all religion.

Romney added, "We are a nation 'Under God' and in God, we do indeed trust." This is a personal religious belief of Romney. It is not to be decreed by the man or woman in the White House. It certainly was not stated by our founders who declared that we are a nation solely under "We the People." God, Christ and Christianity are conspicuously absent in the text of Constitution. Whether Romney accepts it or not, many of America's best and brightest do not "indeed trust in God."

In pandering to Christian conservatives he decried the removal of "the acknowledgement of God" from the public domain. Our founders intended that "acknowledgement of God" come solely under the purview of the individual and his or her conscience. The government is to be neutral toward religion. The Constitution gives every American the right to acknowledge his or her god in anyway they see fit privately or with willing participants. However, neither the president nor a citizen has the right to use the government to influence religious beliefs. Religious symbols and prayers on public property, as advocated by Romney, do just that.

Romney further stated that, "We share a common creed of moral convictions." However, there are as many moral convictions as there are religious denominations. If he truly believes there is "a common creed of moral convictions," then as president he will be a dictator of morality.

This country has been badly damaged by a pastor-in-chief. Bush governs by asking God to bless America and imploring the citizenry to pray for the victims of natural disasters and his God-inspired war. Let's bring reason back to the White House. Vote for a candidate who relies on reason and supports separation of church and state.

To the anonymous who quoted Hitchens:
Hitchens appears to be well read, but I question the scope of his reading. One must understand the context of the John Adams parallelism to understand what he meant. Read the Federalist Papers. The term "religion" as Adams used it could more easily be understood as meaning "moral convictions and practice", which doesn't exclude atheists.

For Hitchens to think that Romney would be "in trouble with some Mormons" shows an ignorance of the subject of Mormonism, Mormon adherents' strong belief in the U.S. constitution including the separation of church and state and the free exercise of religion or no religion, and the leadership model within the Mormon church that includes a "council of Twelve" whose decision-making involves open discussion with different viewpoints, all well listened to before any decision is made. (One could try and find a replay of a recent press conference with Henry B Eyring who spoke of this process openly and candidly in October 2007 on SLC station KSL.)

ANANYMOUS...Be it not truth that United Kingdom Islanders, must make the yearly payment of $500 to the BBC that such is enforced by law,that the (BBC) BRITISH BROADCASTING CORPORATION have had tens of thousands of Islanders fined imprisoned for not making such payment. Is it not further truth many United Kingdom Islanders regard the BBC as a vile corrupt organization, as British politicians, being no better in moral standing, criminals whom place not on TV to spin lies deceit, rather for appalling levels of fraud, as corruption, they belonging in prison... .. .

Today anyone going to church and or saying that is a member of follower of X religion is saying that is his/her faith. The word faith has been prostituted in a way that has become a common word. Faith is different from been religious. Faith is believing without doubts faith is all that we believe to be the truth, not what we think is the truth.
Going to church every Sunday and giving you money to the church does not make a faithful person.
When Jesus passing by some farming area saw a man on his knees praying and a little bit ahead he saw an other man cursing, Jesus said " In Truth I trust the man that is cursing more than the one that was praying.
Visiting the church and been a giver is just a hypocrisy. better go into your room close the door and pray and let what you think be between you and the father.
Know yourself and where you come from before wasting your time believing in fairy tails.

Moody, Moody, Moody,

Nothing in your "muslimed" version of the world will ever trump this basic truth:

"Until the koran is "DEFLAWED", no one is safe!!!!!!!! "

In the United Kingdom, which a tiny island of the coast of France. We are a very fortuate people. Politicians on our Island, always start as end a speech saying, we knowing the peoples needs, are ever humbled servants of the people. Therefore in the United Kingdom we have no need of political debate, only trust in political our parties. Each family pay yearly amount of about $500 to the, (BBC) Thus the $billions then used to fund, BRITISH BROADCASTING CORPORATION, with such free financial backing they enabled daily, to invite our politicians on to the TV screen, that the political messages from our politial leaders contiue into every home. We be an Island as people, that blessed,having politicians whom, having dedicated their lives to serve the people... .. .

CCNL:

SEEMS LIKE THE NAIL HIT RIGHT ON THE HEAD
THATS WHY YOU ARE TRYING TO DEFLECT THE BELOW GIVEN ON GROUND REALITY FACTS BY SAYING, THEY ARE UNSUBSTANTIAL.(Only in your guilty opinion)

WELL YOU CAN AVOID WATCHING YOUR REAL FACE BUT CAN'T HIDE!!!!!!!!

I'm from South East Asia and have been stayed in UK/Europe more than five years. And visiting on/off.

And have first hand experience of what is happening in your societies comparing to ours.

You ONLY compare face appearance of:

-Government Secular or tyrant oppressors (all same in any form).
- And superficial material advance appearance as your yard stick. (Which history is witness that keep on changing sides. And again it is happening, SO WAKE UP).

Your social values, daily abuse and degradation and unjust unbalance laws and there impact on your masses. I have seen FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE!

What are you trying to sell to the world??

Your morality ends up by bombing and destroying other countries by mare accusations and not a single solid proof. You claim your self’s humanists saying we don't hang multi-murderers or multi rapist and free them after double life sentence (i.e., 20 years) after good conduct. As multi killings are just another numbers for you. What if he or she is your own brother or sister then what will you do, tell me honestly? It is not humanist BUT sadism, a Sadist approach. And that is what also reflects in your over all actions also!!
-13% of your population in infected by INCEST.
-Almost same percentage of teenage pregnancies.
-25 million converted sodomites from Christianity.
-Unjust and extremely intervening and discouraging laws about marriage counter productive of general adultery and fornication acceptable in your society.
-Unjust laws about children’s guardian ship.
-Your over all HIGH crime and violence in society, so that every next women get raped in her life (does this reality also says something about your men).
- You as a whole society of weekend violent drunkards, racist and discriminators even in your believes and religions what ever they are.

Which you west love to compare with politically aggravated violence in Muslim world.

SOCIAL VALUES/PRACTICES AND POLITICAL APPEARENCES are 2 different realities.

And I/We thank to God our Muslim societies social realities/practices are mostly according to what we believe in and don't get affected easily and carried away by any Governments Fascist Law!

And that is one of the reason Why Muslims in west even after all the material appearance keep getting back to their roots and lands. BECAUSE THEY ALSO HAVE THE EXPERIENCE OF OTHER SIDE OF THE BEAUTIFUL REALITY OF SOCIALLY INTEGRATED RESPECTFUL BLISSED AND DIGINFIED EQUALLY BALACNED LIFE.

Romney said: "Freedom requires religion, just as religion requires freedom."

Romney is 'historically impaired'. Personal 'freedom' for everyone was a concept that arose from the intellectual secular humanist ideals of the 'Enlightenment' and the 'Age of Reason'... an the idea was the antithesis of 'religion'. "Freedom' arose... and became POSSIBLE... only AFTER the oppressive thrall of Christianity was shrugged off.

"Freedom is the distance between church and state." ~ Unknown

Romney said: "Each religion has its own unique doctrines and history. These are not bases for criticism but rather a test of our tolerance. Religious tolerance would be a shallow principle indeed if it were reserved only for faiths with which we agree."

Nonsense... tolerance for 'religion' REALLY equates to tolerance for gullibility, irrationality, willful ignorance, self-deception, self-delusion, intellectual dishonesty, hypocrisy and drooling stupidity. The fact that a person with NO religious beliefs CANNOT get elected to high public office in this country condemns us all... and will be a shameful footnote in history books of the future... presuming, of course, that we can somehow manage to survive this monumental stupidity and even HAVE a future.

Romney said: "A person should not be elected because of his faith nor should he be rejected because of his faith."

Nonsense... one's religious beliefs (faith) reveals the extent of one's gullibility and stupidity. That is important information, when electing a President.

Romney said: "Each religion has its own unique doctrines and history. These are not bases for criticism but rather a test of our tolerance."

Of course they are a basis for criticism. Christians believe that a cosmic Jewish zombie, who is his own father, can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him that you accept him as your master so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was tricked by a malvolent entity (disguised a talking snake... with legs) into eating a piece of fruit from a magical tree... (etc.)... and that there is something horribly wrong with people who ARE NOT so gullible and droolingly stupid as to believe such outrageously ridiculous codswallop. That, my friends, is insane. Mormonism has the distinction of being even MORE ('though only slightly) insane than that. How is that NOT a basis for c