Readers’ Responses to Our Question (127)

Christmas a holiday or holy day?

Not all beliefs and customs are bad. But God does not approve of them if they come from false religion or are against Bible teachings.(Matthew 15:6).

Jesus was not born on December 25. He was born about October 1, a time of year when shepherds kept their flocks out-of-doors at night. (Luke 2:8-12) Jesus never commanded Christians to celebrate his birth. Rather, he told his disciples to memorialize, or remember, his death. (Luke 22:19, 20) Christmas and its customs come from ancient false religions.
The Encyclopedia Americana says: "Most of the customs now associated with Christmas were not originally Christmas customs but rather were pre-Christian and non-Christian customs taken up by the Christian church. Saturnalia, a Roman feast celebrated in mid-December, provided the model for many of the merry-making customs of Christmas. From this celebration, for example, were derived the elaborate feasting, the giving of gifts, and the burning of candles."
Christmas, or the Nativity, was not celebrated by early Christians. One encyclopedia says about this: "The celebration was not observed in the first centuries of the Christian church, since the Christian usage in general was to celebrate the death of remarkable persons rather than their birth." The Bible links the celebration of birthdays with pagans, not with God's true worshipers. (Matthew 14:6-10)
This does not mean that it is not beneficial to learn and remember the actual events involved in the birth of the Son of God. The factual Bible account provides important insights and lessons for all those who want to do God's will.
Matthew's account mentions that astrologers from the East came to Jerusalem looking for the place where the King of the Jews was born. King Herod was very interested in this—but not with good intentions. "Sending them to Bethlehem, he said: 'Go make a careful search for the young child, and when you have found it report back to me, that I too may go and do it obeisance.'" The astrologers found the young child and "opened their treasures and presented it with gifts, gold and frankincense and myrrh." But they did not go back to Herod. "They were given divine warning in a dream not to return to Herod." God used an angel to warn Joseph of Herod's intentions. Joseph and Mary then fled to Egypt with their son. Next, in an effort to eliminate the new King, cruel King Herod ordered the killing of boys in the Bethlehem area. Those two years of age and under.(Matthew 2:1-16).
The visiting astrologers—however many of them there were—did not worship the true God. The Bible version La Nueva Biblia Latinoamérica (1989 Edition) states in a footnote: "The Magi were not kings, but fortune-tellers and priests of a pagan religion." They came in line with their knowledge of the stars to which they were devoted. Had God wanted to guide them to the young child, they would have been led to the exact place without needing to go first to Jerusalem and to Herod's palace. Later on, God did intervene to alter their course to protect the child.
At Christmastime this account is often surrounded by a mythical and romantic atmosphere that obscures the most important thing: that this baby was born to be a magnificent King, as was announced to Mary and to the shepherds. Jesus Christ is not a baby anymore, or even a child. He is the ruling King of God's Kingdom, which very soon will eliminate all rulerships opposed to God's will, and he will solve all problems of mankind. That is the Kingdom we ask for in the Lord's Prayer.(Daniel 2:44; Matthew 6:9, 10).
Through the angels' declaration to the shepherds, we learn that the opportunity for salvation is open to all who are willing to hear the message of the good news. Those who gain the favor of God become "men of goodwill." There are marvelous prospects for peace in all the world under the Kingdom of Jesus Christ, but people must be willing to do God's will. (Luke 2:10, 11, 14).

Many souls being in debt in ever growing numbers whom are turning to the church seeking financial as spiritual help. Those whom being dumb enough to believe religious brainwashing, the teachings of an all giving christianity. Response of church to growing needs of the many, in financial debts. In reminding, that christianity be not a giving organization but a taking one. Numbers whom seek help from the church ever increasing. So great over the Xmas period, that many church doors now closed over the Xmas period. The reasons church doors closed, as given through the media. Church members over the Xmas period, are being attacked by drunks and beggers... .. .

From beautiful, bright and sunny Sydney in Australia:

Merry Christmas to all my brothers and sisters in Christ in the United States and around the world! To the Jews, a Happy Hannukah! To the Muslims, Happy Eid Mubarak! To the pagans, Happy ?Solistice! And to all others, Happy Cheers of the festive season! Hope you get to enjoy Christmas with your friends even if you don't share the religious beliefs.

Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia

J/J SYNDROM.
jesus/jefferson is a split personality between the bible of christianity and the bible of the founding father,the church of christ and the tempel of founding father.

mankind is being pulled by 2 forces,trying to please god but in the same time trying to please the sacred holy freedom of individual.it,s all right to fonicate at the capital hi way motel but to fonicate at the capital hill is serious sin and crime ,drinking alchol is a sin in christianity but its legal to sell it public???but is illegal to sell drugs in a school zone area (theology and none theology).it,s a sin to steal in christianity but if it,s aproved by jefferson it,s all right.

mankind in his/her right mind need to sit down and ask these question:
1-what is the effect and the impact of j/j on social and political life of mankind ?for how long?what is the expectation?
2-who will win jesus or jefferson?if jesus win is he able to lead mankind to what is good and wholsome?what is good and wholsome according to jesus any way?
if jeffy win is he able to lead mankind to what is good and wholsome?what is good and wholsome according to jeff any way provided that the man never died on the cross for the sin of mankind ,the man died as a common man humanbeing in common mankind grave yard?
what is the difference between the holy shrine of jeff and the holy shrine of christianity?what is the practical impact on the social and political life of the individual?
3-is this life limited to chris and jeff ?
4-people in judo christianity (beliveres and none)realy need to look at the other side of the world ,and when they realy look they realy need to take the J/J lenses off and let their natural humanbeing eyes to be lighted and warmed by the sun.

Quite frankly, I'd like a return to 19th century Protestant custom when Christmas was hardly recognized.

Xmas day be re-named ATHESTELIAM'S DAY, after the most beloved of all Saints, St ATHESTELIAM whom born, 666 BC. With the coming of christianity a period of destruction, torture, brutality, death. ATHEIST's followers of St ATHESTELIAM then almost wiped from face of the earth. Only through there unbending unbreakable love devotion unto the one true God, that ATHEIST's then having survived the trials,tribulations of the centuries. Such there love, strengh, determination, admirable a example to all. courage which having freed millions from the clutches of Christianity. ATHEIST's, ATHEISH having earned our admiration with a place in our hearts. The reward being, St ATHESTELIAM'S DAY..

Sally,

Get over what happened to you when you were eleven. Stop blaming your problems today on what happened decades ago.

John

P. S. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.

Sally,

Get over what happened to you when you were eleven. Stop blaming your problems today on what happened decades ago.

John

P. S. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.

Sally,

Get over what happened to you when you were eleven. Stop blaming your problems today on what happened decades ago.

John

P. S. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.

Sally,

Get over what happened to you when you were eleven. Stop blaming your problems today on what happened decades ago.

John

P. S. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.

Sally,

Merry Christmas.

John

Sally Quinn's op-ed criticizing the H of R's resolution on the Christianity is itself un-American, a rejection of our heritage, anti-Christian, a revelation of her ignorance of the beliefs of our founders, and a testament to her prejudice and bias. It is indeed Christianity which gave us the faith that all men are created equal, the basic ideology of culture, and the norm to tolerate the beliefs of others.

I am a trained logician and analyst. Her traumatic childhood experience in elementary education bears no relevance to what she criticizes. The HR resolution is neither intolerant of the beliefs or non-beliefs of others; indeed, for the most part merely asserts facts. Nor is it inconsistent with her proposed wording for a resolution with which she concludes her op-ed.

(I would have chosen the other post.)

from the first house of worship to penis cutting.

the significance of abrahim,
complet heart and body all obedience all love to his creator god,abrahim is the father of monotheism,where monotheism is not limited to the place of worship but to the entire life and entire body .

abrahim upon reciving commands from his creator god built the first house of worship in mecca.

abrahim upon reciving command from his creator god to circumcise he performed circumcision and commanded his sons to perform circumcision.
penis cutting(circumcision) is a form of worship befor its health and hygieing aspect.
the heart and penis of mankind belong to the creator and fashioner of mankind .

submit your heart and penis to the expert who created you from a sperm and created your father adam from mud.your heart and penis goes togther,there is no separation between heart and penis ,between the place of worship and the rest of life.you only have one heart and one penis,to walk around this planet earth with separated half erected penis wd,not take you no where, no orgasmation nor fruitation.

abraham was tremendously rewarded for his submision ,he was giving ismael and issac, from ismael and issac came all the honorable messenger of the creator god to mankind till the last day.

ismael and his father abrahim built the first house of worship in mecca.
issac 40 years later built the house in jeurosalem.

And since Kabaa is the first Isle made by Prophet Abrahim(A.S) to worship only One God.

So now you know and can corelate all the celebartion events of every year HAJ AT MECCA, including all the rightly guided rituals of stonning the satan (the places where he showed up to the Prophet Abrahim(A.S.) before scarifice), sacrifice of lamb, NEVER ENDING/STOPED EXCEPT PRAYER TIME revolving of humans around Kabaa.

Don't you realize NOW IN PRESENT AGE that the whole Universe from atom, neutron, proton to all the galaxies are revolving!

What do you think they are doing????????????

halozcel get some treatment seriously!

And for every body information who don't know:

Kabaa in Mecca is the same FIRST HOUSE/ROOM OF WORSHIP MADE BY PROPHET ABRAHIM(A.S.). It is the same Isle mentioned in all previous revealitions, including Bible & Tora!

The influence of Paganism in islam.

1-Kaaba(house of Allah) was a pagan center before islam.
2-The name of the founder's dad was Abd ullah that means the servent/slave of Allah.He was not a muslim.Allah was *Illah*(deity) of Quraysh tribe.
3-Seven times turning around the Kaaba and stoning the devil.These are pagan rituals.
4-Eid al-adha/Sacrifice Feast/Festival of Beheading is an absolute stone age ritual.The animal sacrifice was a pagan ritual as well.
5-Salah/Namaz is plagiarized from Hinduism.
6-The fasting(torture to your body) is a pagan custom.
7-Circumcision(penis cutting,vagina cutting) is another pagan custom.

Yes,yes,yes.When he was a little boy,his penis is cut,later he beheads the animals,later he strikes off the infidel's head.The infidel means non-muslim and secular muslim.

*Smite their heads* The Fear Book 47.4

paganplace-yes, jehovahs witnesses don't celebrate christmas- because of all the influences of paganism (according to them)

its still EID so EID AL-ADHA MUBARAK

This is all such twaddle. This bogus "War on Christmas" has been invented out of whole cloth by American right-wing gasbags for political purposes -- to yank emotional chains.

Yes, earlier I put up a snarky post claiming that this "War on Christmas" was just self-defense. Yes, I'm a dirty old atheist. But would I launch or enlist in a "War On Christmas?" Why would I?

I like Jesus. I like him a lot. Supernaturalist and authoritarian aspects aside (which I strongly suspect were attributed to him by the hijacker Saul of Tarsus,) he seems a sensible and beneficent figure.

The celebration of his birthday in a generally (GENERALLY, I said) Jew-hating world appeals to my admittedly sardonic sense of humor. And Christmas serves well in our western societies, I think. "Peace on earth, goodwill to men" is a fine message.

Yes, I like Jesus. I like him fine.

I like Elvis, too. It is their FANS who creep me out.

"And, what if we reacted to those in our culture who would take away our holiday the way the Who's did? What if we boldly showed everyone that you CAN'T take Christmas away from us?"

Seuss Fan, no one is trying to take Christmas away, not even the most rabid of secularists and atheists. The point of religious pluralism is not to do away with anyone's religion, but to do away with the idea of any one religion having a privileged status in society. The premise behind O'Reilly's "War on Christmas" is the idea that Christianity should be the default religion, with other religions being marginalized in our society. There should be no such thing as a default religion in any society.

Happy Yuletide and MERRY CHRISTMAS!

No amount of Christian, Muslim, or Jewish prayers prevailed over our celebrations last night or the Sun rise this morning.

Don't you just love this festive season?

I was told today that Jehovah Witnesses do not celebrate Christmas. Is that true? No tree?
No presents? No festive celebrations?

I hope this isn't true.

Happy Yuletide and MERRY CHRISTMAS!

No amount of Christian, Muslim, or Jewish prayers prevailed over our celebrations last night or the Sun rise this morning.

Don't you just love this festive season?

I was told today that Jehovah Witnesses do not celebrate Christmas. Is that true? No tree?
No presents? No festive celebrations?

I hope this isn't true.

Anonymous :

What do you do if a Atheist throws a grenade at you ? You pick it up, pull the pin and throw it back... .. .

December 21, 2007 11:53 AM
_____

Then, after having blown yourself up with your feeble throw, as the atheist had foreseen, the atheist directs you to the nearest remedial English class for slow kids.

jon meacham:destroyed.

This just in: the Archbishop of Canterbury said on the BBC yesterday that the three Kings are legend, that stars “don't behave” the way the star of Bethlehem supposedly did and that you don't have to believe in the virgin birth to sign up with the anglican church. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article3076008.ece

This info is not news to anyone with seminary training, but I may come as a surprise to the people in the pews.

Here's another link to a story in the Australian press: http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/three-wise-men-just-legend-archbishop/2007/12/20/1197740452480.html

Whenever I look at this site, I get a headline from someone called something like Bashi Goof! to the effect that global warming is a fake. Whenever I try to access that site, it doesn't provide a link that is even similar. My question is simple: is Global Warming a fake, or is Bashi Goof a fake?

oops- guess who!

Lastly, no one can truly enjoy religious freedom unless it is afforded to everybody. No one benefits from having his/her religion granted a special or privileged status above other religions because true religious liberty can only exist when all are afforded that right. Nothing captures the spirit of such accommodation better than the reaction of the Muslim community in Hillsborough County, Fla., when the County School Board decided to eliminate all religious holidays rather than accommodate the request of Muslim students and parents to recognize Eid as an official holiday. The Muslim community, represented by the Council on American-Islamic Relations-FL chapter, quickly lobbied the School Board to reinstate Christian and Jewish holidays that were removed from the 2006/2007 school calendar. Speaking before the Hillsborough County Board of County Commissioners, the CAIR-FL Central Florida Director said: “Reinstate Christian and Jewish holidays even if it means that we don't get our own holiday. . .(as Muslims) we're taught to love for others what we love for ourselves”

(http://www.cair-florida.org/ViewArticle.asp?Code=PR&ArticleID=513)

That is the essence of religious pluralism – to want others to enjoy the freedoms that you wish for yourself.

thank you hadia mubarak

Dear A Seuss Fan,

Well said in your Grinch posting.

God Bless,

Mark A. Sam

I am not a Christian, but I am a white man, so I can understand and sympathize with your feelings of oppression and victimization.

EID MUBARAK

Three cheers for Seuss fan's sentiments! and that from an agnostic secularist. everyone would be happy if we all behaved that way.

Happy Yuletide,

Our Creator has begun the lengthening of daylight and there isn't a thing Christians, Mormons, Jews or anyone else can do about it. Pagan prayers and offerings will rule as they have from time immemorial.

No amount of Christian, Muslim, or Jewish prayers will prevail over our celebrations tonight or the Sun rise tomorrow.

What fun!! Presents! Santa Claus! Whoops, did we pagans co-opt a Christian word - Saint Nick?? - just a translation of Julenissen? - hmmmm - no matter - Pagan and Christian children world-wide are waiting to hear the jingle bells of Dasher,Dancer, Comet, and the others.

I think Dr. Seuss made the point best in his "How the Grinch Stole Christmas".

This guy was fed up with Christmas. He didn't like the noise, the singing, the decorations, etc. So, he decided to get rid of Christmas. He stole their gifts, their decorations, everything that made noise, and then he waited...

What he learned was that the Who's down in Whoville could still celebrate the birth of their Lord without all that stuff. He was amazed as they came out in their Sunday best and sang songs of praise without all of the trappings. THAT is what converted the Grinch.

I don't write this for the non-Christians - - - I am addressing my fellow Christians. Let me ask you: could you celebrate Christmas without the gifts, the lights, the parties and the songs on the radio? And, what if we reacted to those in our culture who would take away our holiday the way the Who's did? What if we boldly showed everyone that you CAN'T take Christmas away from us? What if we showed the joy of Christ and the love of Christ even as they told us to take our trees out of the malls and stop saying "Merry Christmas"? What if we actually ACTED like we were changed by Jesus, instead of getting all upset about things that have nothing to do with our Christian faith?

Maybe, just maybe, their hearts would grow three sizes in one day...and maybe OURS would, too!

The unwashing of sin bringing the greater reward. Such the decision, being given freedom of choice. It no longer a walk-on part, but where illusion having become reality. There those whom discarded the script alltogether, having then re-wrote one to own own pleasing, a major blockbuster reduced to a box office flop with disastrous consequence.

In regards to the comments on "Heart and Head Faith", I believe it is counter productive in producing a sound analysis to overtly bifurcate these two instrumental approaches to the Gospels. Although it is true that some churches tend to gravitate towards either pole, in order to understand where America's religious approach is going, it is imperative that we recognize how they evolved. A central problem in American society can be the entertainment/media culture that has evolved in the last 35 years. As society continues to entertain it self to death,(harsh, but consider the implications) its approach to disciplines involving the heart and head, (academic if you will) will be seriously underminded. As a Presbyterian in the Conservative PCA Church, I recognize that God has called us to worship him with our minds, hearts, and all of our strength. In other words, it's not an either or proposition. If you are an individual seriously called to learn more about God and his timeless truths for mankind, you are called to embark on an intellectual and emotional journey through the Holy Scriptures. The transformative power of this endeavor, will provide what Jesus called sanctification. We are called to have the nature of Christ, the only way to do this is to acknowledge, cherish, and apply, the timeless disciplines of Jesus Christ. Wake up and wise up America. "The Lord gives wisdom to all who lack it, without finding fault."

CHRISTIAN; If you were my husband I'd poison your coffee. MUSLIM; And If you were my wife, I'd drink it... .. .

Athena,

The second Caliph Umar had said *If what is written in them agrees with the koran,they are not required,if it disagreed,they are not desired.Destroy them*
What you say is the third destruction,what I wrote is the fourth and final extermination of the Library.

Athena,at the end of your post,you agree with me.

But,you are right.Early christians had destroyed the ancient greek,italy and anatolian civilizations,but later they created(especially protestants) the great civilization(present one).
What did muslims create in Egypt,Iran and Middle East ??
2500 years ago Persopolis was the civilization center,what is the situation today ?
2000 years ago England and Germany were living in the stone age,what are they today ?

"Dear Mubarak,islam came to Egypt and civilization gone. Kleopatra gone,bogeywoman in blackwrap came."

Cleopatra died prior to Christianity, in 30 BC.
Actually, Christianity destroyed most of the civilization in Egypt, especially the Great Library of Alexandria. It was destroyed in AD 391 by the Christian mobs after the Decree of Theophilus of Alexandria. The Librarian, Hypatia (a noted female scholar and philosopher) was herself murdered.

The Muslim conquest in 642 just completed the job that the Christians began.

sally, iheard your commentary on mitt romneys quote of ADAMS. i guess we can say you would have been a tory. as far a communism and christianity,Jesus had no faith in man to do anything right on this earth. he also accepted the old testament version of what constituted sin. you libs would hate the real JESUS,just as you hate his message,which was GOD is in charge,here is his plan, i love you but i cannot be in the presence of sin. hence, accept my SONS' sacrifice for your sins,or be seperated from me.

What do you do if a Atheist throws a grenade at you ? You pick it up, pull the pin and throw it back... .. .

Anon,

Bred, Born and Brainwashed in Islam, I see.

Time for a reality and history check:

Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, warmongering, hallucinating Arab who also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" aka "pretty wingie, flying, talking, fictional thingies" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic train bombers in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani koranics, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino koranics.

And who funds these acts of terror?

The Islamic Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

Tonio: Exactly. plus we should make clear that even the gift giving part of the celebration is not (newsflash to the christian who thought it was - I knew they were claiming santa and the tree too) a commemoration of the Magi's bringing gifts to the infant). but for the name, it would be possible to say Merry Christmas and mean nothing about christianity. How would christians feel about Happy Santa Day? what exactly could they complain about? think about it.

There should be little, if any, objection in one giving celebration to births of Christ, Muhammad, as honour as prophets, whom preached the mercy of Allah, as compassion of Almighty. Such spiritual intervention aid as altering, course of humanity it's spiritual development. Wherupon the outcome as it's intentions, that eventuallity ends with spiritual enlightenment. Over time being a great misenterpretation of Christian teaching as Islam, the result, growing division, disagreement. The mental barriers, walls being built growing longer as higher. Cause of problems in need of attention as in the mending. Western nations much needed to further develope the spiritual, the Islamic world having a need, in expanding their people's depth within democratic values, as individual freedoms.

I am an atheist but I am getting bored with this debate. I enjoy the Christmas season, I like the lights, special foods, parties, etc. I figure the more public the displays, the more it is commercialized, the more Christians undermine their own magic cult (er, religion). If that is what they want to do, fine with me. By declaring that there is a "War on Christmas" the wingnuts on Fox get all frothy and make themselves look ridiculous. Again, if that is what they want to do, fine with me.

"Wishing someone Merry Christmas when they are not celebrating Christmas (e.g. Muslims, Jews) is offensive because it is making the assumption, unwarrentedly, that the other is just like you"

Henry James, while I agree about the assumption itself, I doubt that everyone who says "Merry Christmas" to non-Christians is making that assumption. Some people may have other, less malicious reasons.

The phrase "Merry Christmas" isn't even the issue. The true issue is the phrase "Happy Holidays" and why a vocal minority of fundamentalist Christians see the phrase as part of an anti-Christian conspiracy. These people make the truly offensive assumption, which is that Christianity should be the "default" religion and that other religions should be marginalized. Most Christians seem to reject this assumption.

Hadia Mubarak says *That is the essence of religious pluralism-to want others to enjoy the freedom that you wish for yourself*.
Yes,you are right.

-Man can take four women.
-Can woman take four men ?

-Man can be witness.
-Can woman alone be witness ?

-The son takes *Two* from the inherit.
-Can doughter take *Two* or *One* from the inherit ?

-Man can say *I divorce you*
-Can sex-slave(woman) say so ?

-Man can show his unwashed hairs.
-Can woman show her unwashed hairs ?

Dear Mubarak,islam came to Egypt and civilization gone.
Kleopatra gone,bogeywoman in blackwrap came.

Christmas belongs out of the public square and out of the commercial square. If Christmas is a time to celebrate the birth of Jesus, then the way we celebrate it now doesn't honor Him. The Christmas we celebrate and have celebrated all of my life is a celebration of "giving" and/or "Santa"/ and or "the Spirit of Christmas"... etc. Gift Giving, the main theme of Christmas incorrectly represents why Jesus was born. He came to save us from our sins (1 Timothy 1:15), by dying on the Cross and coming back to life, giving us all hope of eternal life. Jesus isn't about all of the other trappings of Christmas. Jesus birth isn't the momentous occasion we make it out to be. It tells us important things about Jesus, but the real celebration is in His death and resurrection. Jesus is God in the flesh, and his birth story is intended to tell us that. The Christmas holiday tells us another story of peace and goodwill toward man. That should be our objective every day. Jesus didn't come to earth to espouse this.

Does the celebration of Christ's Birth belong in the Public Square? No, and not because of the "wall of separation", but because it is a celebration of Christians of their Lord (God) and Savior. Christians spend countless hours and billions of dollars in preparing, decorating, hosting parties, and gifts, and most of them won't lift a finger to serve in or support ministries. So Christmas is their God and not Jesus. Christmas in its present form, doesn’t honor the person who was born to die.

God Bless,

Mark A. Sam

CONCERENED CHRISTIAN NOW LIBERATED.There historic reason for MUHAMMAD the Prophet, ISLAM, it being brought about through clear reasoning, in mercy as with blessing. It true there be abuse of Islam as Christianity, in teachings. Yet, Muhammad, as Christ, remaining worthy of our respect ... .. .

CCNL says:
"So nativity scenes on government property in the UK or the USA or wherever are basic representations of fiction and are equivalent to having representations of Santa Claus and his reindeer and/or Yule trees. No harm, no foul!!

And Merry Reality to All!!!"

Christ, I can't believe that I agree, or almost agree, with CCNL! Miracles DO happen. At least it was a good and unexpected laugh. Thank you!

However, in the end, I have to agree instead with Terry Bond:
"However, the federal government may not use my taxes to directly or indirectly support any religion over any other.
...
"And, due to the 14th amendment, all states must also conform with the separation clause."

And I think this also applies to the religion of Santa Claus, and even to that of the one TRUE mother of God, The Twin Peaks Log Lady (most revered among women, peace be unto her and the life-giving bark of her log).

--FIUS

Isn't it interesting that those who deem it important to give equal respect to all (even witches) are rarely willing to give such hollow respect to the things that REALLY deserve it from a practical/historical standpoint? Or did you miss the fact that other "deities" are invited, nay, encouraged to be worshiped on a holy day set apart to celebrate the gift of restored fellowship with our Creator (on His terms) through the Messiah He promised, who was prophesied to die for our sins and who did so that we might be redeemed to life? If you can read between the lines at all, you can see that only the truth suffers this kind of treatment. False religions and cults never suffer the demands of Christians to get equal time and PC "fairness doctrine" treatment...because they already declare the truth of our creation and the Creator, and are not in competition with pagan or other false religions that lead mankind away from that truth. Soon the Messiah will return again in power and dominion, like many Jews (ignorant of their own prophets) expected Him to come the first time. At that time, this truth will be supremely important to all. Take the time now to learn how everything the Jews did pointed to the lamb of God, Jesus of Nazareth, who would first come to take away the sins of the world (Passover, Isaiah 53, etc) before He comes to destroy the works of unrighteousness and to rule the Earth. Why not? Everything else He promised has come to pass! Truth...indeed.

ANONYMOUS.....When brainwashed from an early age with christianity, as other religious teachings, it stretching the truth somewhat in saying such people are giving of their own opinion... .. .

ooops- that was me-

hadia mubarak expressed it so well-

"That is the essence of religious pluralism – to want others to enjoy the freedoms that you wish for yourself."

if we remove 'religion ' from the statement, it is still true.

does anyone here deny that christians have the right to express their own views if they desire?

sometimes another persons expression may even be anathema to us- but it is part of being in a pluralistic society-

so, we suffer very mild discomforts on occasion because we are striving to be tolerant, and also tolerated!

talking and engaging (and tolerating)only people who look like i look and think like i think-is extreeeeeeeeeemely boooooorrrrrinnnng.

well.... it is!

EID MUBARAK MO AND ALL

Mo,

Just as there is "No historic reason for Christmas", there is also no historic reason for Islam other than it is the mythical/embellished account of a womanizing, warmongering, hallucinating illiterate Arab named Mohammed made by his plagiarizing biographers.

Mike: the problem with your argument to Henry is that not everyone accepts that Merry Christmas can be a secular greeting, referring to Santa and the elves and the tree and the gifts, but not Christ. It could become that, and for some, that's all it means (and there's a pretty decent argument that we should distinguish the Santa and Jesus part lest we let the evangelicals confuse the issue as if secularists were attacking Santa) but we still have the Christ part of the name of the holiday to deal with. Could that be overlooked, such that both speaker and listener can assume at least an alternative secular meaning to the greeting, avoiding offense to the nonbeliever? perhaps, but I believe Dr. Elliot (another panelist) is right to say that he would never say Merry Christmas to someone he knew not to believe. That leaves strangers, and I'm on the fence with whether one should take the chance. I don't know why one would when it's so unnecessary.

I also take issue with your second argument. Happy Holidays makes no assumption whatever either way, as it is a reference to at least Christmas and New Years, and shouldn't be offending anyone. It is not an anti christmas culture war greeting no matter what O'Reilly says.

Henry James:

"Wishing someone Merry Christmas when they are not celebrating Christmas (e.g. Muslims, Jews) is offensive because it is making the assumption, unwarrentedly, that the other is just like you."

I'll say this as polite as I can...You're wrong! Wishing someone a Merry Christmas is not a religious phrase, nor does it make any assumptions. Christmas is Christmas, whether you like that or not. It's like saying Happy Independence Day. The name of that holiday is Independence Day and always will be. Its too bad if some radical Muslim hates this because they hate America. Saying Merry Christmas is not assuming they are like you. It is simply remembering the holiday, and in this case, its Christmas. If saying Merry Christmas assumes bigotry, then saying Happy Holidays assumes that the person saying it hates Christ, hates Christians, and refuses to say "Christ." Both assumptions are incorrect.

There no doubt in JESUS's spiritual capabilities, his soul be within the highest of the spiritually developed. It of true little importance, but in terms of historical teaching, that one wishing to honour the most advanced in spiritual development then such being not Jesus. As the term son of god it meaningless, as all in spirit as the spiritual are the sons daughters of God. Mary being virgin, but the vivid dreamings of a hollywood scripture writer, a media attempt turning a moderate movie into a box office hit. Mary an virgin, being long ways the streching of imagination, she having had five where Jesus being the third or fourth born if one count that which being stillborn... .. .

jesus the christ or jesus the muslim?

1-jesus is muslim.
2-his virigin chaste mother is muslim.
3-both jesus and his mother came from the family of al,imran.
4-al,imran came from the lineage of jacob(isreal)jacob is the son of issac,issac is the son of abraham ,all are none but muslims all are none but mankind (no gods nor sons of gods),all are honorable messenger to mankind.
5-all never glorified nor celebrated their birth day,all glorified and celebrated their creator god ,none but the creator god of this universe.

the sun rose on people way befor jesus.

please read history and when you read history you need higher reference than history ,you need the reference of the creator of this universe.

The Atheist now free from religious brainwashing strives to bring likewise such freedom for their brothers sisters. In past centuries with western civilization there having been great progress as millions gaining their freedom from the clutches of christianty. Christianity it's organizations, have responded to the success of ATHEISM bringing religious brainwasing to ever earlier ages 2yrs 3yrs 4yrs 5yrs it appalling as shameful ending by age 12yrs the damage to the growing childs brain serious, in many cases it severe, the childs life being reduced to endless uncontroled feelings of religious guilt, suffering for many be so severe where the children be causing self physical harm. There no doubt in the history of humanity there having been many gifted with spiritual knowledge such to benifit all humanity, not as that which happened that such knowledged twisted as turned being abused giving power to a few over the many. Christ being one many having been blest with the word of God, there being many whose teachings as names never brought to light, they as writeings were cast upon the fire, such then being the fate facing the brave souls whom then challanged the power of church, as it's vile corrupted religious teachings... .. .

As per many NT exegetes to include Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists, there is "No Historic Reason for the Season".

There was no Virgin birth. http://wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php/026_Jesus_Virginally_Conceived

And there was no Star of Bethlem. http://wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php/369_Star_of_Revelation

excerpts:

"Gerd Lüdemann

Commenting on the infancy narratives overall, Luedemann [Jesus, 124-29] concludes that Luke and Matthew represent "two equally unhistorical narratives." He cites the occurrence of a miraculous heavenly sign at key points in the life of Mithridates VI in a history written by Justinus (active in the reign of Augustus, 2 BCE to 14 CE). "

"John P. Meier

Meier [Marginal Jew I,211ff and 376] considers these traditions to be "largely products of early Christian reflection on the salvific meaning of Jesus in the light of OT prophecies" and concludes that their historicity is "highly questionable."

So nativity scenes on government property in the UK or the USA or wherever are basic representations of fiction and are equivalent to having representations of Santa Claus and his reindeer and/or Yule trees. No harm, no foul!!

And Merry Reality to All!!!

well, HAPPY BIRTHDAY HENRY!!!

because i like aethetics and i love sending cards- i have become known for sending inappropriate cards-
happy ground hogs day cards for birthdays etc-
(actually, there IS no ground hogs day card- my friend who is anti-holiday has declared this is his favorite holiday and i can never find any)

i just like the pretty pictures-

while muslims actually DO know the real birthday of Muhammad(pbuh), no one ever celebrated his birthiday in his lifetime, and we are reall not supposed to now-(although indians and turks i think and some others do)
it saves alot of these kind of headaches

eid is coming on about the 28th!

i think ill send some wedding cards- they're always sparkly

sparkly and pretty

Lisa: as between Christians and atheists, I would argue that it's the Christians who are doing the loudest resenting, and the atheists who are asking for mere tolerance, but I admit it's a close one if measured by those who post here, as opposed to the general public.

As noted elsewhere on these pages by someone from Texas, at least there there is no evidence that Jesus is in retreat or in any way threatened, given the ubiquity of religious symbols, public and private. At least not by secularists. Santa is another question.

As noted by Panelist Nyang, Santa isn't Jesus, and the whole Santa, trees and gifts thing is, and should be distinguished from the celebration of the birth of Jesus. That's hard because Santa comes down chimneys on Christmas eve, but hey, we can't let christians act as if they own Santa too, as if to wrap themselves up in ribbons and say attacking Christmas is attacking Santa (not a bad strategy, but bogus). It would be glib to say that saying Merry Christmas is not religious because to many it means Santa and not Jesus, but there's a point there somewhere.

Victoria, my Liege

there are many personages who I am happy they were born. Jesus i am largely happy, though i must confess I am rather mixed. Lots of yucky things have been done in his name. I wouldn't say we can completely blame him, or if it would have happened anyway. But it is not ALL pretty.

I realize that is the way of the world.

as for the other personages that i am glad were born: i don't like being told/pressured into celebrating their birth by their great advocates. fine for THEM To celebrate. Just don't assume that it is high on my list of the many things I myself celebrate.

Again, fine for Christians or whomever to give a party and see who comes. I just like to decide myself whether to come or not.

well henry, it IS a bit of a presumptuous statement-
we can have suspicion for the good intentions in mr wilson-
maybe he's trying to include us in his salvation- (which is lovely)
unless he comes back and states that god loves him more than us-
ill assume the former for now :)

Milton pithily points out that
"Christmas means celebrating the birth of our savior Christ Jesus so I say AMEN."

You got that right, Milton.

I, as a Jewish Pagan Buddhist Atheist,

love having people tell me to enjoy celebrating the birth of
"my savior Christ Jesus."

Amen.

Don't you, Victoria.?

Christmas means celebrating the birth of our savior Christ Jesus so I say AMEN.

I often wonder if this blog has turned out as Sally and Jon envisioned it. Far from being a forum to discuss the role of religion in society, it seems to have evolved into forum for atheists to complain in the strongest possible language that no one has ever suffered as they do at the hands of the religious right.

Although I have no objection to atheists gathering to rant about Christians, I wonder if this blog as a whole is contributing anything positive to society.

Atheists hate and resent Christians. OK, got it. Does anyone have anything to say that doesn't boil down to that?

Is there a "War on Christmas?"

If there IS, it's merely self-defense.

The purported birthday of an itinerant, illiterate, two-millennia DEAD rabbi gets pretty tiresome after a few decades.

Taking Christ out of Christmas is like having omelet without eggs.

If the message is having peace upon ALL Creation, then count me in and I make a mean omelet... with eggs ofcourse.

DIANE STIRLING....God created man in mans image as woman in womans,yet made with the capability that through heart as brain there be development in understanding as experience, thus the senses with there true intention, coming to fruitation. one drink from the holy grail, one will see the light of God as *experience energy in its purest form as before creation of the universe. Knowing in experience the very *word of God which be the essence of creation. Such being the journey that humanity be on, with the brains development more be reveiled as to match human capabilty. It has never been God wishing to be an mystery, rather that our development be balanced in understanding as experience. If such balance not maintained it would be an dire situation for all. It wise for all that taking illegal drugs, to understand the effect such having on the brain, being bad that for your own protection parts of the brain shut down. Having experiences which being not balanced in understanding, can end with one having serious mental health problems. If one stop the taking of illegal drugs the brain will start a process in healing itself, such taking a period of time, so one must be patient. As with smoking it the cause of great damage, where the bodies immune system struggles daily trying to deal with the poisions being put into it. If having a car then one does not take care for it keeping engine serviced, as tank full of gas, oil for the engine, tyres with correct air pressure, etc etc etc.