Torture

A true Christian can never justify torture.

God’s view is seen at Psalms 11:5:
“Jehovah himself examines the righteous one as well as the wicked one,
And anyone loving violence His soul certainly hates.

Jesus said at John 13: 34 & 35 :” I am giving YOU a new commandment, that YOU love one another; just as I have loved YOU, that YOU also love one another. By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves.”

In answer to the question: “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

Jesus answered at Matthew 22:36-40: “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ This is the greatest and first commandment. The second, like it, is this, ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets.”

Jesus taught at Luke 6:35-36: “To the contrary, continue to love YOUR enemies and to do good and to lend [without interest], not hoping for anything back; and YOUR reward will be great, and YOU will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind toward the unthankful and wicked. Continue becoming merciful, just as YOUR Father is merciful.”

Paul wrote at Galatians 6:10: “Really, then, as long as we have time favorable for it, let us work what is good toward all, but especially toward those related to [us] in the faith.”

And also at 1 Thessalonians 4:9: “However, with reference to brotherly love, YOU do not need us to be writing YOU, for YOU yourselves are taught by God to love one another;”

And finally at Romans 12:17-21: “Return evil for evil to no one. Provide fine things in the sight of all men. If possible, as far as it depends upon YOU, be peaceable with all men. Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: “Vengeance is mine; I will repay, says Jehovah.” But, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals upon his head.” Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good.”

A christian and an atheist were watching the news when they saw a man at the top of a building threatening to jump off. The atheist said, 'I bet you $50 he's going to jump off, what do you say ?' The christian agreed. They continued watching until the man jumped off the building. The christian hands over the $50 and says, 'Good Work.' The atheist takes the money but in a few minutes guiltily admits, 'I'm sorry, here's your $50 back, I saw the earlier showing of the news and I knew the man was going to jump off.' 'Don't worry,' said the christian 'I saw it too. I just didn't think he'd do it again.'

In your society discussion of torture is in progress, because YOUR PRESENT SYSTEM AND IDEAS APPROVES IT. (indiscriminate torture!!)

SHAMELESS AND BARBARIC!!!

History tells that the oppressers always called the oppressed BARBARIC to justify there own actions.

Infact they blame others for what they are doing them selves in reality!!!!!!!

In your society discussion of torture is in progress, because YOUR PRESENT SYSTEM AND IDEAS APPROVES IT. (indiscriminate torture!!)

SHAMELESS AND BARBARIC!!!

History tells that the oppressers always called the oppressed BARBARIC to justify there own actions.

Infact they blame others for what they are doing them selves in reality!!!!!!!

In your society discussion of torture is in progress, because YOUR PRESENT SYSTEM AND IDEAS APPROVES IT. (indiscriminate torture!!)

SHAMELESS AND BARBARIC!!!

History tells that the oppressers always called the oppressed BARBARIC to justify there own actions.

Infact they blame others what they are doing them selves in reality!!!!!!!

In your society discussion of torture is in progress, because YOUR PRESENT SYSTEM AND IDEAS APPROVES IT. (indiscriminate torture!!)

SHAMELESS AND BARBARIC!!!

History tells that the oppressers always called the oppressed BARBARIC to justify there own actions.

Infact they blame others what they are doing them selves in reality!!!!!!!

In education one go through all the various stages,of learning, if be fortunate, to get the best that be available, from infant to adult. Such learning, taking many years... .. . Spiritual development being as similar, one learns at all the various stages, only in the spiritual, it, s t r e t c h i n g not over years, but MANY MANY MANY lifetimes... .. . Hence, one look in the long term. That a lifetime, be a worthy GIFT, where enabled, then one proceeding further in "spiritual development" on best behaviour, then one building a very healthy spiritual account... .. .

Torture is never justified.

Talk about lobbing softball questions. Let's see some questions that will call into question the existence of god, the soul, or the supernatural.

Is obsession with 'terror' and scaring people a mental deformity or just a form of cruelty to others?

It shouldn't be overlooked that some of the species enjoy torture of others of the species as well as torture of animals. I would suspect that some in positions of power do in fact enjoy cruelty and probably torture of others. I would also suspect that many of those offering support for torture secretly enjoy the thought of it.

Having people killed over an extended period of time without a declared war or a war resolution and not calling it a criminal act is a major part of the problem. Putting one or two
person's 'judgment' or thoughts of what works over a major international agreement such as the Geneva Conventions is an act of total absurdity that defies any kind of rational understanding.

What is the evidence that a person committed to a major 'terror' act would betray the act and others involved as a result of being tortured? Did Timothy McVay betray the others? Has anyone ever wondered why he was executed in a relatively short time without trying more to find out about others involved???

Why are the 'confessions' as a result of torture considered 'the gospel truth' rather than a coerced statement?

The argument for torture and terror seems to relied on a concept that there is nothing worse than death when it may be only a disguise for cruelty to others.

We seem to have forgotten about 'man's inhumanity to man"!

. ... .... ALL ARE BROUGHT TO ACCOUNT .... ... .

We go to war and we blow off the heads/maim slaughter (all leftist pacifists need not reply as yr position that we should never go to war is a total fallacy) kill someones, brother/father/son by the 100's of thousands and we say "ok" but when it comes to trying to save numerous lives vs the torture of one , we go bazonkers, as if we can take back with the left hand all the death and destruction we deal with the right hand. If there is a good reason for war, then there must be a good reason for torture, but to cry that we are losing our humanity is like the fat guy who orders orders
a pizza pie with a diet coke.

Anonymous: don't have a copy, but I doubt the UCMJ says it's OK to torture if the subjects are "low lifes" whose leaders didn't sign the Geneva Convention. and so what if it does? and if you believe our generals have been torturing for decades and have managed to keep the secret for the reasons you cite, you will believe anything. and why exactly should I try sleep deprivation? even if I were to conclude that it's enough to get me to reveal anything to anyone that asks, how does that make bamboo splinters or waterboarding OK? just the opposite. if sleep deprivation will suffice, then anything worse is just the wanton infliction of gratuitous pain or terror. surely that's not OK?

Joet,

The Geneva Convention, I believe, does cover terrorists as these low lifes have relinguished any rights to fair treatment. See http://www.crimesofwar.org/expert/genevaConventions/gc-schmitt.html

Therefore the US Military Code of Justice is not in effect.

And the success of interrogations will never be reported in a terrorist filled world since those that "ratted" would fast lose their heads once released.

And still not up to some self-imposed sleep and food deprivation? By doing this exercise, you could at least address the issues from experience.

Concerned,

You've liberated yourself from Christianity but your ethics are still lagging behind. Time to step it up.

Concerned: how about a straight answer? are you suggesting that our generals should be systematically instructed to torture, by any means necessary, anyone they feel may have useful information that could advance the troops' mission or not? are you suggesting that our generals, in every war from WWI to present have been misguided in their rejection of such a notion, or not? or are you suggesting that they have actually been engaged in torture whenever they deemed it useful, but that it's a well kept secret? which is it? and just dispense with the vague war is hell nonsense.

Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,

Hmmm, after two days of no sleep and no food, you also would "sell your mother" and relinguish all those Islamic secrets that your "pwtfft" gave you. During your true fast and abstinence, you should also walk through the wilds of Alabama in the pouring rain with only a compass to guide you. This is typical escape and evasion training for our troops that protect your belief in "pwtfft"s.

concerned the liberated- you seem to have stumbled upon something there-

there doesnt seem to be alot of practical application in wartime to sell one's mother

the ability to coerce someone to sell their mother serves no real purpose

as a euphemism for do anything say anything-
selling your mother is as good an analogy as any as to the practical uselessness of information under duress

The cornerstone just law, not political religious cunning as deceit, where people fleeced, as lambs, to slaughter. It for govt to serve the people, not people, serving govt... .. .

It was posted "War is Hell"
Seems to me alot of people desire Hell.

Satan,but refereeing to the material realm, where being the gateway to "spiritual development" via human form, "spiritual enlightenment" from brain as heart, growth in understanding as experience, such reveiling,the knowledge of creation, hence, respecting satan, being but honourable unto God.

Below Anonymous is me.

The Message for War Waging Rulers:

Moreover, in mainstream Christianity he (Satan/Lucifer) is called "the ruler of the demons" (Matt. 12:24), "the ruler of the world" and even "the god of this world." (2Cor. 4:4). The Book of Revelation describes how Satan will be cast out of Heaven, down to the earth, having "great anger" and waging war against "those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony ". Ultimately, Satan is thrown into the "lake of fire" (Revelation 20:10), not as ruler, but as one among many, being tormented day and night for all eternity.

Who Would Jesus Torture?

(Charles Colson?)

what is torture, but a means to a biased end.

what is torture, but a means to a biased end.

ADAM: She's blonde, she's beautiful, but why so dumb ? GOD: Blonde as beautiful, that you loving her, dumb, that she loving you ... .. .

Anon,

Over 300 comments and finally someone gets it right, "simply get them drunk". Good thinking!!!! Sure beats waterboarding and food and sleep deprivation.

Lucifer said, "What is the difference between a christian and the Titanic ? We know how many went down on the Titanic."

Some from the titanic were saved, I don't any of the christians.

Look , "And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe." Do you see "the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word" "and believe"
Peter said "Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus." Do you see "by the mouth of David" "the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word" "and believe" Do you see "Judas, was guide to them that took Jesus"

Joet,

In an efficient war using the principles of War is Hell and the "Firstist with the Mostest" there would be no torture i.e. all enemy combatants would be sent to "Allah Land" during the single confrontation.

How goes your self-inflicted torture i.e. two days without sleep or food???

What is the difference between a christian and the Titanic ? We know how many went down on the Titanic.

What does torture have to do with faith??

Is this OnFaith or OnCrack?

Concerned: so he who tortures the mostest fastest wins? I'm sure glad none of the generals you served under believed that (I assume you didn't serve under Sherman).

I learned a lot in my five years in the US military to include two important principles i.e. "War is Hell" (General Sherman's burning/terrorizing/torture of Georgia) and "The Firstist with the Mostest" wins the battle/war".

Hell being partly terror and torture, so yes indeed terror/torture come in degrees/scale.

And denying any individual food and sleep for two days will cause anyone to sell their mothers. i.e. waterboarding not needed. For you non-military types, try it out yourselves. Water is allowed.

I observe many wise comments in this blog.

The words of Job:
Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same. By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed. The roaring of the lion, and the voice of the fierce lion, and the teeth of the young lions, are broken. The old lion perisheth for lack of prey, and the stout lion's whelps are scattered abroad.
Now a thing was secretly brought to me, and mine ear received a little thereof.

Look “they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same” “By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed” All word of GOD is breathed in, according to the faith of sinner creatures, “by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed”. Who is it that destroys you, God. Look “The roaring of the lion, and the voice of the fierce lion” Who came to destroy the gentiles. Who is sent in his image to speak the gospel to the world. Do you see “Now a thing was secretly brought to me”, have not I revealed a secret.

The priests said not, Where is the Lord? and they that handle the law knew me not: the pastors also transgressed against me, and the prophets prophesied by Baal, and walked after things that do not profit. Wherefore I will yet plead with you, saith the Lord, and with your children's children will I plead.

This is who stands behind the pulpit of the churches of the gentiles “pastors also transgressed against me, and the prophets prophesied by Baal” Look “And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.” Is not this an answer “Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?” Christians are God’s chosen, “the world is the enemy of God.” “preach the gospel to every creature.” “Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.” The missionary work of the gentiles is clear “Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.” Look “ye therefore wise as serpents” Here is the kingdom for the Christians “Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?” Look “Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.” The words are clear “pray for them which despitefully use you.” “ye therefore wise as serpents” “And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.” “how can ye escape the damnation of hell?”

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.

Do you see who is with the sons of God, “when the sons of God came, Satan came also among them” It is Satan who dwells with the sons of God. The LORD dwells with Israel, is it not your desire to have the LORD with you.

Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the Lord.

Look, “Again there was a day when the sons of God” “Satan came also among them” It clearly represents Satan is always with the sons of God before the Lord.

While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

Look, “The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants”, I ask you wise creatures of the Christian and catholic faiths who are the sheep. Who is with you at the judgment seat. Look “God layeth up his iniquity for his children: he rewardeth him, and he shall know it. His eyes shall see his destruction” “and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.”

Words from the Psalm:
Look "For my love they are my adversaries: but I give myself unto prayer. And they have rewarded me evil for good, and hatred for my love. Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand. When he shall be judged, let him be condemned: and let his prayer become sin."

Do you see "Set thou a wicked man over him" You have the mind of christ (jesus) "let Satan stand at his right hand" "when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the Lord" Do you see "When he shall be judged, let him be condemned" Here is the kingdom for the Christians “Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?” “The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants”

You will have satan with you forever.

What's the difference between an atheist and a 747 ? Not everyone has been in a 747. .

MHR: what do you have to say to perfectly good moderates who have no trouble distinguishing between shooting the enemy in battle and torturing him once captured?

MHR said: "I frankly don't understand why leftists don't attack the killing of terrorists and their encarceration as fiercely as they do the employment of waterboarding."

The reason you can't understand it is because you think like a terrorist yourself. In your mind, anything (torture, the murder of civilians, mutilation of the innocent) is justified as long as "our side" was provoked before we did it.

How is your reasoning any different than that of bin Laden? He believed that 9/11 was justified because the Islamofascists had been provoked by the past "misdeeds" of America.

The fact is that some things are wrong, no matter the provocation. If the U.S. can't even stand against torture, then we don't deserve our soldiers' sacrifices.

mhr @November 12, 2007 12:55 PM: I do not know whether I am a 'leftist' or subject to 'utopian thinking'. However, I DO KNOW that I am responsible for what the US does and I do not want to be responsible for what terrorists do. Which is one reason I object when the US behaves the way the terrorists do.

I suspect that you consider yourself a 'pragmatic' individual. Why don't you then provide me (and the rest of us) with a pragmatic (that is concrete) proof that torture is effective. By that I do not mean a hypothetical situation, or the 'we do not know what they know' argument; but instead proof that torture was effective when no other alternative was effective.

Please do remember that Bush has used the 'pragmatic' justification twice. The first time he even gave examples. As is typical, his examples were false. The second time he did not give examples (at least he can learn). But if you are to maintain a 'pragmatic' stance, you must demonstrate that it is based on fact, and not hypothesis.

Given the penchant of leftists for utopian thinking and the way they have characterized the efforts the US had made to combat islamic terror as US imperialism at its worse, best described as a combination of Abu Ghraib, torture, Guantanamo, and a capitalistic scramble for oil, I frankly don't understand why leftists don't attack the killing of terrorists and their encarceration as fiercely as they do the employment of waterboarding.

Given the penchant of leftists for utopian thinking and the way they have characterized the efforts the US had made to combat islamic terror as US imperialism at its worse, best described as a combination of Abu Ghraib, torture, Guantanamo, and a capitalistic scramble for oil, I frankly don't understand why leftists don't attack the killing of terrorists and their encarceration as fiercely as they do the employment of waterboarding.

Chuck Swanson @ November 11, 2007 6:51 PM: "But . . . . two exceptions. Waterboard Bush and Darth Vader ..." I agree about convicting them, butnot waterboarding. However, I would be agreeable if they had to listen to the commentaries, and occasional screams, of those they caused to be tortured.

What about people whom sing..... yet cant sing, play an musical instrument..... yet cant play. It fortunate "spiritual development" all the senses taken to their peak, put to their true purpose, every cloud, brings, a silver linning... .. .

its a cut and paste folks, but applicable

Waterboarding
Drowning for justice

Why on earth is there any doubt that waterboarding - basically a form of drowning - is a form of torture? What will it take to convince us all, Senators and Attorneys General included, to reject it?

By Hesham Hassaballa, November 9, 2007


It's a slam dunk

Last week, in testimony before the Senate Judiciary Committee, Federal judge Michael Mukasey, the latest nominee for Attorney General, refused to define the technique known as "waterboarding" as torture. Though this would appear unbecoming of anyone meant to uphold justice, it still seems likely that he will be confirmed by the Senate. The Judiciary Committee is scheduled to vote on Mukasey on November 6.

So why would anyone, let alone Judge Mukasey, have any doubt as to whether waterboarding is torture? Presidential candidate Rudy Giuliani isn't sure and says "it depends on how it's done" (soothing music might help, perhaps). Joe Scarborough, the MSNBC television commentator, also notes the "debate" and asks "Is waterboarding torture?"

The experts have no doubt. "Waterboarding," says Malcom Nance, former chief of training at the U.S. Navy Survival, Evasion, Resistance, and Escape (SERE) School, "is a torture technique. Period." Writing on his blog, Nance says: "Having been subjected to this technique, I can say: It is risky but not entirely dangerous when applied in training for a very short period. However, when performed on an unsuspecting prisoner, waterboarding is a torture technique - without a doubt. There is no way to sugarcoat it."

The widespread assertion that waterboarding is "simulated drowning," according to Nance, is a mischaracterization. "It does not simulate drowning, as the lungs are actually filling with water. There is no way to simulate that. The victim is drowning. Unless you have been strapped down to the board, have endured the agonizing feeling of the water overpowering your gag reflex, and then feel your throat open and allow pint after pint of water to involuntarily fill your lungs, you will not know the meaning of the word."

Waterboarding is a torture technique in which the one being questioned is strapped down, his head below his chest, and has a cloth either draped over his face or stuffed in his mouth. Water is then poured over the cloth. It was first used during the Spanish Inquisition (probably against Muslims, wouldn't you know), and it has been a favorite of many tyrannical and despotic regimes throughout history. To witness what waterboarding actually looks like, click here.

Mr. Nance dismisses the claims of the "torture apologists," as he calls them, that techniques such as waterboarding have been effective in getting detainees to talk: "Of course, when you waterboard you get all the magic you want - because remember, the subject will talk. They all talk! Anyone strapped down will say anything, absolutely anything to get the torture to stop. Torture. Does. Not. Work." This has been repeated by virtually every expert in interrogation: torture is not an effective means of extracting information.

"Yes," say the torture apologists, "but we got information from Khalid Sheikh Mohammed by waterboarding. It was valuable information, too." Really? In October 2006, the Washington Post reported that, "Numerous sources have confirmed that the CIA used waterboarding in its interrogation of alleged 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and other 'high-value' prisoners." According to ABCNEWS investigative reporter Brian Ross, waterboarding KSM helped thwart a plot to attack a building in Los Angeles.

Yet, that is not factually correct. According to President Bush himself, that plot was thwarted in early 2002 "when a Southeast Asian nation arrested a key al Qaeda operative. Subsequent debriefings and other intelligence operations made clear the intended target, and how al Qaeda hoped to execute it. This critical intelligence helped other allies capture the ringleaders and other known operatives who had been recruited for this plot." Yet, KSM was captured in Pakistan after the plot had been thwarted in March 2003. So, if the Library Tower plot was revealed by waterboarding KSM, it was not new information. Thus, as Malcom Nance says, "Torture. Does. Not. Work."

Therefore, why torture a terrorism suspect? If we were to capture Ayman Al Zawahiri (he has lost the privilege of being addressed as "Dr."), and we subjected him to waterboarding and other such "harsh interrogation techniques," what would be the purpose, knowing that torture simply does not work? I echo Mr. Nance's statement that: "I would personally cut Bin Laden's heart out with a plastic MRE spoon if we per chance met on the battlefield. Yet, once captive I believe the better angels of our nature and our nation's core values would eventually convince any terrorist that they indeed have erred in their murderous ways."

This sentiment echoes perfectly this Qur'anic principle:
"Repel thou [evil] with something that is better and lo! he between whom and thyself was enmity [may then become] as though he had [always] been close [unto thee], a true friend. " (41:34)
It follows the commandment of Jesus Christ on the Mount:
"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and send rain on the just and on the unjust ." (Matthew 5:43-45)
Some may scoff at this and accuse us of being "soft" if we follow this course. And true, it may not give us that carnal satisfaction of seeing a mortal enemy suffer in sweet revenge. Yet, Christ said: " Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven in perfect." (Matthew 5:48) Shouldn't we, as Americans, be, therefore, sons of our Father in heaven? Shouldn't we, as Americans, be, therefore, perfect?

Hesham A. Hassaballa is a Chicago physician and writer. He is the co-author of "The Beliefnet Guide to Islam," published by Doubleday in 2006. His blog is at drhassaballa.com.

We Americans love to argue. We love our opinions. We love discussing issues like waterboarding in the abstract. That is why it is so easy to get us to go along with such things as stupid wars and rationalizing torture.

But, to really put things in perspective, imagine that it was your son--or some other loved one in your family--who was being waterboarded. How would you feel about it?

When it is no longer just an abstract proposition, we all have a tendency to look at such questions a bit differently. As long as Americans thought we were going to have a nice, simple little war in Iraq with few casualties, we were all for it, supported it into the 70 percent range. Now, that's all changed. Because, it is no longer just an abstract theory. Nearly 4000 dead young Americans is a sobering reality.

I suspect if William Kristol's son or other loved one were somehow mistakenly thought to be a terrorist and have information about some pending attack and the CIA wanted to use waterboarding to extract information, he would not be as inclined to be so academic and so supremely indifferent in his reactions on this question.

We Americans love to argue. We love our opinions. We love discussing issues like waterboarding in the abstract. That is why it is so easy to get us to go along with such things as stupid wars and rationalizing torture.

But, to really put things in perspective, imagine that it was your son--or some other loved one in your family--who was being waterboarded. How would you feel about it?

When it is no longer just an abstract proposition, we all have a tendency to look at such questions a bit differently. As long as Americans thought we were going to have a nice, simple little war in Iraq with few casualties, we were all for it, supported it into the 70 percent range. Now, that's all changed. Because, it is no longer just an abstract theory. Nearly 4000 dead young Americans is a sobering reality.

I suspect if William Kristol's son or other loved one were somehow mistakenly thought to be a terrorist and have information about some pending attack and the CIA wanted to use waterboarding to extract information, he would not be as inclined to be so academic and so supremely indifferent in his reactions on this question.

Nope. Torture is never justified. Those who say it can be are no better than the terrorists.

Ms. Quinn is the LEAST qualified person to run a column like this. She's socialite that knows nothing about true suffering, and has her position on this paper due to Ben Bradlee and him alone. She's a Republican shill that no one should listen to. She wouldn't know Jesus Christ if she pushed him out of the way.

War is Hell!!! For all those global "sideliners" and "goody goodshoes", welcome to Hell and all its terror and torture consisting of waterboardings, beheadings and bombs!!!

" 'Torture is valid IF you also wish to be tortured. The basic rule of civilization is this "Treat people the way you wish to be treated.'

That's pretty silly. So if I someone hates themselves and wants to hurt themselves, then they should treat others in the same way?

Ask the professionals who are involved in serious interrogation. Torture is not effective. That is the overwhelming consensus among the military and others.

Whether it's moral or not then is irrelevent; the question of its morality is only if it were effective, in which case its morality for Christians is incredibly dubious. Did Christ promote torture somewhere? I missed that Beatitude along the way to adulthood.....

Ask the professionals who are involved in serious interrogation. Torture is not effective. That is the overwhelming consensus among the military and others.

Whether it's moral or not then is irrelevent; the question of its morality is only if it were effective, in which case its morality for Christians is incredibly dubious. Did Christ promote torture somewhere? I missed that Beatitude along the way to adulthood.....

It's so simple: Never can torture be acceptable.

It's so simple: Never can torture be acceptable.

It's so simple: Never can torture be acceptable.

NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO!

Can you hear me?

NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO!

But . . . . two exceptions. Waterboard Bush and Darth Vader and then convict both of them of high crimes and misdemeanors based on their answers to questions while being waterboarded.

Sweet, really sweet.

Torture, like murder, is NEVER justified and ALWAYS immoral. The "ticking time-bomb" scenario often cited to justify torture is hypothetical and false.

Catholicism has become rather charming, since it stopped burning people at the stake. Perhaps the oxymoronic "religious right" could make that leap as well and decide that torture is immoral.

I have supported the idea:

TORTURE IS MORALLY INDEFENSIBLE IN EVERY CASE, IRRESPECTIVE OF THE PERPETRATOR OR THE OBJECT OF THE TORTURE.

But, you gentle souls have led me to reconsider my position.

Perhaps the gauge of immorality can be lowered just enough to torture bush and cheney, (add colson and cal - for good measure), BUT not to extract information. The torture would be JUST FOR FUN!!! (I am already smiling with anticipation).

The correct answer is:
TORTURE IS MORALLY INDEFENSIBLE IN EVERY CASE, IRRESPECTIVE OF THE PERPETRATOR OR THE OBJECT OF THE TORTURE.

I see good old Chuck Colson, for all his 'ministeries' work, is still the same vile species of human he's been all of his life. Why am I not surprised?!

in search of national security.
national security requires national justice and national justice requires national morality and national morality starts at national heart.

1-where people take their heart for filling?
2-do they have cure centers for people hearts?
3-what is the difference between heart cureing and ham cureing?
4-what is the difference between prisoner of zanda and prisoner of lost and misguided society?
5-is justice and morality exportable and importable?where people can buy justice and morality?
6-what is the justice of this universe?where?since when?who handel it?what and where is the reference?.

justice never died for the sin of mankind .pay allegiance to justice you be safe.

Humanity, blessed with human form, an brain as heart, opening unto spiritual development, such, with the dawning day, growth in knowledge, where alights, greater depth, in understanding, as of experience, in the love which bonds, being the greater, than all which may divide... .. .

Someone - I think it was Paganplace - brought up the fascination hardcore religious zealots (and Americans in general) seem to have for the idea of pain, suffering and graphic descriptions of punishment. Since time immemorial humans have sought to dehumanize those who we fear might oppose us. That and our erotic attraction for violence are much in evidence here.

Frankly, I have a hard time taking anyone who claims there is any religious or humanistic justification for torture seriously.

A mexican, an Irishman, an African, a kilted scotsman, a priest, two lesbians, a rabbi and a nun walk into a bar. The barman looks up and says, "What the hell is this ? Some kind of joke ?"

What about all them animals that be bred, for the table. Used in genetic experimenting, as in reactions to chemical structuring... .. .

War is Hell!!! For all those global "sideliners" and "goody goodshoes", welcome to Hell and all its terror and torture consisting of waterboardings, beheadings and bombs!!!

Victoria said “For the Lord (NOT HAROLD)” “Solomon (NOT HAROLD)” “HAROLD- you're neither the Lord, nor Solomon.”

Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for My name is in him. But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.

Do you see “I send an Angel before thee” “obey his voice” “My name is in him”

Then said David to the Philistine, Thou comest to me with a sword, and with a spear, and with a shield: but I come to thee in the name of the Lord of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel, whom thou hast defied.

Do you see “I come to thee in the name of the Lord” What was said to Moses “I send an Angel before thee” “obey his voice” “My name is in him” David said “The Lord executeth righteousness and judgment for all that are oppressed. He made known his ways unto Moses, his acts unto the children of Israel.” Do you see “He made known his ways unto Moses” The LORD gave Solomon wisdom and understanding for judgment.

On that day the Lord magnified Joshua in the sight of all Israel; and they feared him, as they feared Moses, all the days of his life.

Do you see “as they feared Moses” Moses came in the name of the LORD. I ask you Victoria, who knows the name of the LORD. Who speaks the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of the LORD. “He made known his ways unto Moses” The LORD gave Solomon wisdom and understanding for judgment. You said “HAROLD- you're neither the Lord, nor Solomon.” I clearly have proven ““And Moses said, Hereby ye shall know that the Lord hath sent me to do all these works; for I have not done them of mine own mind.”
Moses said “And Moses said, Hereby ye shall know that the Lord hath sent me to do all these works; for I have not done them of mine own mind. If these men die the common death of all men, or if they be visited after the visitation of all men; then the Lord hath not sent me.” Do you see “for I have not done them of mine own mind”

And Moses came and told the people all the words of the Lord, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the Lord hath said will we do. And Moses wrote all the words of the Lord, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel.

Do you see “told the people all the words of the Lord, and all the judgments” What was the response of the children of the LORD “All the words which the Lord hath said will we do.”

“The Lord executeth righteousness and judgment for all that are oppressed." Remember your history towards Israel.

Victoria said "you dont have the discernment or ability to judge(like G-d)" Here is G-d's judgment.

Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same. By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed. The roaring of the lion, and the voice of the fierce lion, and the teeth of the young lions, are broken. The old lion perisheth for lack of prey, and the stout lion's whelps are scattered abroad.
Now a thing was secretly brought to me, and mine ear received a little thereof.

While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

Look, "By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed" “The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants”, I ask you wise creatures of the Christian and catholic faiths who are the sheep. Who is with you at the judgment seat. Look “God layeth up his iniquity for his children: he rewardeth him, and he shall know it. His eyes shall see his destruction” “and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.”

Anonymous said "Trust in the Lord with All Thine Heart, and Lean Not unto THINE OWN Understanding."

The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

Now these be the last words of David. David the son of Jesse said, and the man who was raised up on high, the anointed of the God of Jacob, and the sweet psalmist of Israel, said, The Spirit of the Lord spake by me, and his word was in my tongue."

The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom, and his tongue talketh of judgment.

For the froward is abomination to the Lord: but his secret is with the righteous.

The Words are clear “The secret things belong unto the Lord” “but those things which are revealed belong unto us” “, that we may do all the words of this law” Solomon said “but his secret is with the righteous” David said “The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom” That is the Statutes of the LORD “The Spirit of the Lord spake by me, and his word was in my tongue” “his tongue talketh of judgment” The Spirit speaks of Judgment.

And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

The Words of the LORD are clear “shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me” Those of the christian and catholic faith love Jesus, he spoke not of the words of the LORD. Do you see “keep my commandments” thou shall have no other gods before me. Them of your faith are sons of God, they are the children of God. You are all gods. You are all lords, the son of man is lord of the Sabbath. The LORD said to Moses “And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I the Lord your God am holy. Ye shall fear every man his mother, and his father, and keep my sabbaths: I am the Lord your God.” The LORD is HOLY, Judah. Do you see “Ye shall fear every man his mother, and his father” The LORD is Judah, the Mother of Israel, Judah is the Father of Israel. Do you see “Specially the day that thou stoodest before the Lord thy God in Horeb, when the Lord said unto me, Gather me the people together, and I will make them hear my words, that they may learn to fear me all the days that they shall live upon the earth, and that they may teach their children.” What does it say “they may learn to fear me all the days that they shall live upon the earth” “Ye shall fear every man his mother” “O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!” Do you see “keep all my commandments always” sinner creatures aare the children of God. “Thou shalt fear the Lord thy God, and serve him, and shalt swear by his name.” “And now, Israel, what doth the Lord thy God require of thee, but to fear the Lord thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the Lord thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,” Moses said “This day will I begin to put the dread of thee and the fear of thee upon the nations that are under the whole heaven, who shall hear report of thee, and shall tremble, and be in anguish because of thee.” Look “Thou shalt fear the Lord thy God; him shalt thou serve, and to him shalt thou cleave, and swear by his name.”

And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:
Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son. For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the Lord be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly. But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire. For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

What does the Law say “And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them” “nor shew mercy unto them” You said "nor apparently the compssion of either" It is the Judgment of the LORD you question. I fulfill the Words of Moses “This day will I begin to put the dread of thee and the fear of thee upon the nations that are under the whole heaven” Everything about the faith of the sinner creatures I fulfill “ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire”

If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me. I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy. Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people. And Moses came and spake all the words of this song in the ears of the people, he, and Hoshea the son of Nun.

Moses said “mine hand take hold on judgment” “I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy” I think you forget the history of the Christian and catholic churches towards the Children of the LORD, Israel. “he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries” “and will be merciful unto” “his people”

And the Lord said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name. And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory. And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

The words are clear “I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee” “and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy” The name of the LORD is JUDAH.

You said "Trust in the Lord with All Thine Heart, and Lean Not unto THINE OWN Understanding." It is not my own understanding, it is the Judgment of the LORD. “The Spirit of the Lord spake by me, and his word was in my tongue. The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom, and his tongue talketh of judgment.” You said "you will be judged with the mercy with which you judge others" You judge the Words of the LORD. I speak with the Spirit of the LORD.
"the way of the ungodly shall perish."

that was victoria

heed ypour owen warnings harold-

For the Lord (NOT HAROLD)knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish."
soyou dont have to concern yourself- g-d has it under control

"Good and upright is the Lord:(again NOT HAROLD) therefore will he teach sinners in the way. The meek will he guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach his way

whom the Lord (NOT HAROLD)loveth he correcteth

"The Lord(NOT HAROLD) by wisdom hath founded the earth, by understanding hath he established the heavens"

Solomon (NOT HAROLD)said "My son, despise not the chastening of the Lord(NOT HAROLD); neither be weary of his correction.

HAROLD- you're neither te Lord, nor Solomon.

you dont have the discernment or ability to judge(like G-d) nor the wisdom of Solomon.

nor apparently the compssion of either

my advice to you harold-

"Trust in the Lord with All Thine Heart, and Lean Not unto THINE OWN Understanding." -Proverbs 3:5

peace toyou harold- you'll find no resnating sympathies in me for your judgements

and you will be judged with the mercy with which you judge others.

It would seem clear that since it may be able to obtain the answer desired by torture that the reason for approving torture was to get a confession to 9/11.

It would also seem clear that the new AG would have been legally bound to bring criminal charges against the "authorizer" of torture if a procedure was ordered that is defined as torture.

Religion would seem to have had nothing to do with it; in this case it was probably just a means to an end with the fallout to be dealth with later. Since using the procedures on only one would have created questions the procedures probably were applied as a pattern of behavior.

To paraphrase Scripture:

What does it profit a nation to win the War on Terror, but lose its soul?

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/gunning/etc/arsenal.html

In summary, the IAEA report says that following the August 1990 invasion of Kuwait, Iraq launched a "crash program" to develop a nuclear weapon quickly by extracting weapons grade material from safe-guarded research reactor fuel. This project, if it had continued uninterrupted by the war, might have succeeded in producing a deliverable weapon by the end of 1992.[1]

According the UN inspectors, the material and program was destroyed and shut down as per Iraqi officials and inspection results.

-an industrial scale complex for Electromagnetic Isotope Separation (EMIS), a process for producing enriched uranium. The complex was designed for the installation of 90 separators; before the Gulf War, eight were functional. If all separators had been installed, the plant could have produced 15 kg of highly enriched uranium per year, possibly enough for one nuclear weapon.

a large scale manufacturing and testing facility--the Al Furat Project--designed for the production of centrifuges, used in another method of uranium enrichment.

facilities and equipment for the production of weapons components.

computer simulations of nuclear weapons detonations

storage of large quantities of HMX high explosive used in nuclear weapons.

According to former U.N. inspector David Kay, Iraq spent over $10 billion during the 1980s in an attempt to enrich uranium and build a nuclear weapon. However, the Agency concludes that as of December, 1998, "There were no indications to suggest that Iraq was successful in its attempt to produce nuclear weapons," or "that there remains in Iraq any physical capability for the production of amounts of weapons-usable nuclear material of any practical significance." However, the IAEA did find that "Iraq was at, or close to, the threshold of success in such areas as the production of [highly enriched uranium] ... and the fabrication of the explosive package for a nuclear weapon." Despite the fact that the facilities and nuclear material had been destroyed or removed, as early as 1996 the IAEA concluded that "the know-how and expertise acquired by Iraqi scientists and engineers could provide an adequate base for reconstituting a nuclear-weapons-oriented program."

Between 1991 and 1998, UN inspectors conducted more than 70 inspections into Iraq's biological warfare activities. In its 1999 final report to the U.N. Security Council, UNSCOM noted that Iraq's biological warfare program was "among the most secretive of its programs of weapons of mass destruction." It said that Iraq "took active steps" to conceal the program, including "inadequate disclosures, unilateral destruction, and concealment activities." Therefore, the Commission concluded, "it has not been possible to verify" Iraq's statements about the extent and nature of its biological weapons program.

Victoria, a barbarian is a barbarian. I call it like it was written. The very first Psalm says, "Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous. For the Lord knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish." Sinners know not the LORD. David also said "Good and upright is the Lord: therefore will he teach sinners in the way. The meek will he guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach his way. All the paths of the Lord are mercy and truth unto such as keep his covenant and his testimonies." David spoke mouth to mouth to Moses,"he teach sinners in the way".

Solomon said "My son, despise not the chastening of the Lord; neither be weary of his correction: For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth. Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding. For the merchandise of it is better than the merchandise of silver, and the gain thereof than fine gold. She is more precious than rubies: and all the things thou canst desire are not to be compared unto her. Length of days is in her right hand; and in her left hand riches and honour. Her ways are ways of pleasantness, and all her paths are peace. She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her. The Lord by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens."

Do you see "The Lord by wisdom hath founded the earth, by understanding hath he established the heavens" This is the Spirit that goes upward, from earth to heaven, It is the Spirit of the LORD. "Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; for that is his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him?" The is the spirit that goes down to the earth, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." That is the spirit of God.

I find it incredible that the pro-torture posters here apparently get their (mis) information strictly from Rush Limpballs and Faux News.

One would think they'd avail themselves of a few facts and the bit of accurate reporting that's available to them while they're visiting here at the WaPo website. I mean, how many times do they need to have their idiotic comments shot down by other posters (with links to sources that debunk them) before they catch on that their media sources have been lying and continue to lie to them?

I guess their fantasy world of fear and hate is more important to them than reality.

C'est la vie.

harold zeller-

we can live fine without your xenophobic and hateful truth.

Q: How does our country find people who would do these horrific things to another living being?

A: Outsourcing. There's a market for everything.

Q: How does our country find people who would do these horrific things to another living being?

A: Outsourcing. There's a market for everything.

Dear...Brothers & Sisters....for western nations spiritual development,did not start with christ. Such said, it not disrespecting christianity.But rather the praise of another grouping of souls whom ever tried to balance (spiritual material) hundreds of years before christ.In truth they more understanding of christ his words, above all,hence having wrote the few following words of christ's, which he then directed to all,as being we all the,Children of God...'Let him who seeks, continue seeking until he finds. When he finds he will become troubled. When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the all.' 'If those who lead you say to you. "See the kingdom is in the sky", then the birds of the sky will precede you.If they say to you, "It is in the sea", then the fish will precide you. Rather, the kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves,then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it you who are the poverty... .. .

Half "an" brain? Nice one Lucifer...real smart!

What do you call an "atheist" with half an brain ? Gifted!

CONCERNED THE CHRISTIAN NOW LIBERATED writes (yet again - same laundry list post over many, many months) :
"An update on our War on Terror:

1. Saddam, his sons and major henchmen have been deleted. Saddam's bravado about WMD was one of his major mistakes."

Tuesday, 4 February, 2003, 23:26 GMT
Saddam denies links to terrorists

Saddam rebuffed accusations from the US and Britain
Iraqi President Saddam Hussein has denied allegations by the US and UK that Iraq has links with Osama Bin Laden's al-Qaeda network.
"If we had a relationship with al-Qaeda, and we believed in that relationship, we wouldn't be ashamed to admit it," the Iraqi leader said in a rare interview, conducted by the former British MP Tony Benn and broadcast on Channel Four television.

These weapons [of mass destruction] do not come in small pills that you can hide in your pocket."

There has been considerable scepticism worldwide about alleged links between Saddam Hussein - a secular dictator - and Osama Bin Laden, an Islamic fundamentalist.

The transmission of the interview comes a day before US Secretary of State Colin Powell is to present to the UN what he says is evidence that Iraq is developing banned weapons of mass destruction - another allegation denied by Saddam Hussein.

In a first response from the US administration, US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said the Iraqi leader told lies most of the time.

"This is a case of the local liar coming up again and people repeating what he said and forgetting to say that he never, almost never, rarely tells the truth," the defence secretary said.

In other developments:

Kuwait says it will establish a closed military zone in its northern area bordering Iraq from 15 February
UN arms inspectors in Iraq say they have found another empty chemical warhead
In the interview, Saddam Hussein said it would be impossible to hide away the chemical, biological or nuclear weapons that the US insists he possesses, and which the UN inspectors have so far failed to find.

Saddam said finding banned weapons should be easy
"These weapons do not come in small pills that you can hide in your pocket," he said.

"These are weapons of mass destruction, and it is easy to work out if Iraq has them or not."

The US and Britain claim Iraq is hiding prohibited weapons or related documents from United Nations arms inspectors, who returned to Iraq last November

On Tuesday, the chief UN arms inspector Hans Blix urged Baghdad to improve its co-operation, warning that it was "five minutes to midnight".

America has warned it will forcibly disarm Iraq if Saddam Hussein does not give up the weapons it says he owns.

The Iraqi leader said he did not want a confrontation, and accused America of looking for a pretext to launch an attack.

"Iraq has no interest in war," he said.

"No Iraqi official or ordinary citizens has expressed a wish to go to war."

Bush 'unwise'

Saddam Hussein said the US was seeking to control Iraq's oil fields and was being influenced by Israel.

raqis have been fulfilling their obligations

Saddam Hussein

"The consecutive American administrations were led to a path of hostility against the people of this region, including our own nation," he said.

"The most important factor in controlling oil is to destroy Iraq."

Alluding to US President George W Bush, Saddam Hussein said anyone who thought they could act without regard for the rest of the world was "lacking in wisdom" .

He said "Iraqis have been fulfilling their obligations" under the UN resolution on disarmament, contrary to US and British claims.

"The President reiterated that Iraqis had no weapons of mass destruction"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2726347.stm

What do you call an "Atheist" with half a brain ?Gifted!

Soja John Thaikattil, Sydney, Australia Said
"It is inhuman to use inhuman methods in the name of extracting truth"

christians and catholics are not human,"preach the gospel to every creature" "extracting truth" “they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same” Have I become your enemy because I show you the truth.

You have the mind of who you worship, you are as wise as a serpent. The words of your god "Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves." "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?" This is one of your gods "therefore wise as serpents" You are a god. Look "And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:" Do you see "Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him" Look "And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven." Do you see "I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven" This is your god "and lighting upon him" "beheld Satan as lightning" You have the spirit of your god, you are a god. The judgment of the LORD is clear "And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." You are the seed of the serpent. "thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field" You have the mind of christ "carnally minded is death;." the words of Paul are clear "For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."

Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same. By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed. The roaring of the lion, and the voice of the fierce lion, and the teeth of the young lions, are broken. The old lion perisheth for lack of prey, and the stout lion's whelps are scattered abroad.
Now a thing was secretly brought to me, and mine ear received a little thereof.

Look “they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same” “By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed” All word of GOD is breathed in, according to the faith of sinner creatures, “by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed”. Who is it that destroys you, God. Look “The roaring of the lion, and the voice of the fierce lion” Who came to destroy the gentiles. Who is sent in his image to speak the gospel to the world. Do you see “Now a thing was secretly brought to me”, have not I revealed a secret.

The priests said not, Where is the Lord? and they that handle the law knew me not: the pastors also transgressed against me, and the prophets prophesied by Baal, and walked after things that do not profit. Wherefore I will yet plead with you, saith the Lord, and with your children's children will I plead.

This is who stands behind the pulpit of the churches of the gentiles “pastors also transgressed against me, and the prophets prophesied by Baal” Look “And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.” Is not this an answer “Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?” Christians are God’s chosen, “the world is the enemy of God.” “preach the gospel to every creature.” “Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.” The missionary work of the gentiles is clear “Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.” Look “ye therefore wise as serpents” Here is the kingdom for the Christians “Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?” Look “Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.” The words are clear “pray for them which despitefully use you.” “ye therefore wise as serpents” “And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.” “how can ye escape the damnation of hell?”

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.

Do you see who is with the sons of God, “when the sons of God came, Satan came also among them” It is Satan who dwells with the sons of God. The LORD dwells with Israel, is it not your desire to have the LORD with you.

Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the Lord.

Look, “Again there was a day when the sons of God” “Satan came also among them” It clearly represents Satan is always with the sons of God before the Lord.

While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

Look, “The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants”, I ask you wise creatures of the Christian and catholic faiths who are the sheep. Who is with you at the judgment seat. Look “God layeth up his iniquity for his children: he rewardeth him, and he shall know it. His eyes shall see his destruction” “and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.”

You will have satan with you forever.

An update on our War on Terror:

1. Saddam, his sons and major henchmen have been deleted. Saddam's bravado about WMD was one of his major mistakes.

2. Iran is being been contained. (besides fighting the civil war in Bahgdad, that is the main reason we are in Iraq. And yes, essential oil continues to flow from the region.)

3. Libya has become almost civil. Recently OBL threatened Libya for being friends with the USA.

4. North Korea is still uncivil but is contained. The US Navy recently helped recover a number of North Korean citizens and ships from Islamic pirates operating off the coast of Somalia.

5. Northern Ireland is finally at peace.

6. The Jews and Palestinians are being separated by walls. Hopefully the walls will follow the 1948 UN accords.

7. Bin Laden has been cornered under a rock in Western Pakistan since 9/11.

8. Fanatical Islam has basically been contained to the Middle East but a wall between India and Pakistan would be a plus for world peace. Ditto for a wall between Afghahistan and Pakistan.

9.Timothy McVeigh was executed. Terry Nichols will follow soon.

10. Eric Rudolph is spending three life terms in prison with no parole.

11. Jim Jones, David Koresh, The Unabomber Ted Kaczynski, the "nuns" from Rwanda, and the KKK were all dealt with and either eliminated themselves or were punished.

12. Islamic Darfur and Islamic Somalia are still terror hot spots.

"Tell me nurse, how is the boy doing; the one who ate all those 5p pieces?" "Still no change, doctor."

Can the use of torture ever be justified?

This question must be answered with an unequivocal no because the only type of society that really has it in itself to determine whether there are instances in which it should be answered yes is a society which at present we can only imagine, which is a society--of all societies--we have to create ourselves and cannot simply just come into being, and is the society of we ourselves having pushed ourselves so hard, become so knowledgeable about the uses and abuses of pain, that we now are perfectly qualified to tell when a person should be pushed over the brink for the safety of society,--or if a person should be pushed over the brink at all.

In other words, to answer the question of whether torture is ever justified the members of society answering the question would first have to be people comfortable with having been tortured--or better yet, a people having tortured themselves--with the purpose of trying to discover that optimal point at which pain drives the individual to realize his best--or breaks an individual apart for good (apart for GOOD? Telling that I wrote that sentence...). For now--as the human race is constructed--the only people with an inkling of a correct course on such a question are people such as artists, etc.--which is to say people that have been pushed to the brink, have experienced life itself as torture, and therefore have some insight into the problem--especially that most important insight of all: how to prevent society from descending to the point of torturing anyone.

And I should say that protestations against torture amount to nothing, that people will torture--will rationalize it every which way--until we arrive at the society which makes it next to impossible, and which is therefore the society best qualified to tell if it is ever justified. But this society, once again, would be a society composed of individuals who expect much of themselves, a society of individuals who have experimented with pain, driven themselves painfully, tortured themselves, to the point that they cannot at all be called complacent--and in fact are masterful--and therefore have all but eliminated the possibility of society descending to torture, and if having to descend will certainly not rationalize it.

As things stand today, with America posing this question to itself, I can only curl my lip in disgust. What we have is a society taking the easy way out, and I find it difficult to tell the difference between a Republican salivating at the prospect of being able to torture someone and a Democrat saying "no torture" but being precisely for a society in which there is really no pain at all and therefore a movement which never really gets at a society free of torture,--for the only society truly free of torture would be a society vastly experienced in the uses and abuses of pain.

No, torture today is not justified because no American has the imagination to grasp that torture can be prevented only by society trying to determine the breaking point of humans--and doing so not to break humans but drive them to their best, drive them to where they have full mastery over themselves and others, and therefore are in position to best prevent a reduction of humanity to actions which break humans.--And really we break humans every day as we now stand. We are so in denial as to torturing people every day we do not even have to rationalize actions. I leave it to others to list all the ways we make life hell for one another without ever calibrating whether we have gone too far or have actually helped a person realize the best of himself.

Science of pain only can prevent unnecessary infliction of pain on fellow human being. Series of essays on problem (I really must work on it further--this is modern philosophy which makes modern philosophy as commonly understood so many childish school games. Good question. Deserves a book).

The christian belief is that torture good,the idea is finding where within the body the devil hides.When one crying in pain then they having found the source of the devil, hence, it being not humanity that be tortured but the devil,it not the godly christian that harming,but saving. Earlier forms of torture used finding the devil within the body was the use of an red hot iron being placed agin the skin,another sticking an sharp metal pin into the body,the screams thus informed the torturer,satan having been found. CHRISTIANS,One cant help but love them... .. .

Using torture is wrong:

It is inhuman to use inhuman methods in the name of extracting truth.

Totally innocent persons could be subjected to torture.

Creative ways must be devised to extract information because the chance of getting false information through torture is great, i.e. the person saying what he/she thinks the interrogator wants to hear to escape further torture.

The shadow/brutal side of the person who interrogates could come into the picture without the person being aware of it.

HAPPY FIRST BIRTHDAY TO THE WASHINGTON POST ON FAITH FORUM!

Sally Quinn and Jon Meacham introduced this forum on 8/9 November 2006. It has come a long way in its first year and look at all the great topics that have been discussed. I congratulate Sally Quinn and Jon Meacham for their great idea to start this vitally important public discussion which will impact not only thought processes in the US, but also send out ripples around the world in the months and years to come!

I greet and congratulate all the bloggers who have participated thus far and have made this forum a great source of information and a great crowd to hang out with! My personal and special thanks to all who have taken the time to respond to my posts and have involved me in the discussions making me feel like a member of this valuable online community. It has been a wonderful experience for me to "meet" some really great people here (the list is too long hence I won't go into it), read some wonderfully insightful posts, and follow the sharply intellectual discussions. I have learned much. Thank you one and all!

Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia

hans b- excellent comment and reasoning

Mike, you said:

"First of all, the question has NOTHING to do with faith. It (like all issues discussed on this fraudulent blog) is overtly political."

Christians worship a God who came to earth so he could be betrayed, tortured, and subjected to a horrible, slow, painful death that the Romans only used on non-citizens. As such, this goes right to the very heart of Christian faith.

"Second, the answers all come from angry liberals and all say the same thing.

This board is a joke. It is just another political blog for liberals and by liberals.

Why are liberals so afraid of opinions that are different than their own? Could they not find even one response from someone other than a screaming liberal?"

It says a lot about how far politics has gone when the question of torture becomes a left-right issue. It's nothing of the sort. It's about freedom vs. Fascism. Torture does not in any sense represent freedom: it represents the Imperial Japanese, it represents the Soviets, the Khmer Rouge, and yes, the Nazis. It's about whether the United States is a beacon of light for the world, or just another empire of fear. THAT is why we're "screaming." Because we want our country to be on the right side, not because it's our side, but because it does the right thing. We've got a humanitarian crisis on our hands, and it's being done in OUR name.

Ask yourself if you're really comfortable with the fact that the United States is using our enemies' "interrogation" techniques on its prisoners. Ask yourself if you'd be so willing to jump to torture's defense when its our men and women on the receiving end. I pray it never happens; and I pray we stop what we're doing before anyone gets the chance to try it.

This administration ran in 2000 as the morally superior choice after Clinton's sex scandal. Yet, they led us to war on questionable intelligence, practice torture and get the justice dept. to declare it legal, and forbid pictures of flag-draped coffins being unloaded at Dover Air Force Base. Where are the morally superior actions Republicans? Where? In New Orleans, after Katrina? I didn't see much from the federal gov't either during or after this natural disaster! I can't, for the lfe of me, see any moral acts from this failed President, or his lackeys at the VA. Remember the Walter Reed conditions found? Gates took the heat, and cleaned house after that scandal. The President, did he ever apologize for saying he supports the troops, but neglecting the injured and maimed coming home? Will he ever admit to any mistake he made during these long war-fllled years?

A businessman was asked by a friend: 'Why does your new secretary wear such a long bead necklace ?' He replied: 'She wants me to know that I can count on her.'

The fact that this is even up for debate these days in my country is absolutely appalling to me.

"Can torture ever be justified?"

Unequivocally... NO.

It is a mistake to judge Christians by the money grubbing TV preachers at the forefront of the irreligious social "conservative" right.

They are what they are -- crooks! They use religion and defame Christ to line their pockets and gain political power.

These are of the same type Jesus wanted out of the Temple!

Psychological means to obtain information I believe is not torture, but If America were to condone the use of any physical torture--then from ourselves we will have created the weapon that will destroy us from within.

In response to the, USA's governments, use of torture as murder, against those whom speak out against, USA atrocities, the human slaughter,the appalling destruction being committed worldwide. With Military Might, rob,plundering the planets resources to feed the monster it having become. Some americans say....WE HAVING BECOME NO BETTER THAN OUR APPONENTS... surrounded by the rubble, as the dead, of their making, up to their knees in blood of those they having slaughtered, yet, still, americans retain their sense of humour.

The Realm of Reality: War is Hell!!! We enter Hell to include its torture and terror to win said wars!!! That is and has always been the nature of war.

Comparisons: waterboarding vs. suicide bombing massacres? waterboarding vs. loss of arms, legs and/or sight? waterboarding vs. five hundred pound bombs? waterboarding vs. fire bombing? waterboarding vs. cluster bombing? waterboarding vs. hydrogen bomb holocausts?

And of these items which ones are acts of torture and which ones are acts of terror?

Torture and terror come in different degrees. Micro torture/terror would be waterboarding as supposedly practiced by our military and intelligence agengies or beheadings of Iraqi Shiites by Sunni intelligence groups and vice versa.

Macro terror/torture would be dropping the atomic bomb on Japan. Some might consider the result quite effective.

As a poster remarked, other Western countries have used torture. France used it in Algeria - but, according to the French General Aussaresses who unapologetically spilled the beans about how bad it actually was, not in French Indochina, because the commanding officer there wouldn't allow it.

Forty years later we can compare the results.

The torture did not provide any information that saved lives.

France is still ashamed of the Algerian war but has long gotten over the Indochina war.

Algerians are still angry at France, people in Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos are not.

The Algerian trauma is still the number one terror threat in France, while there is no terror threat whatsoever coming from the former French Indochina. (And don't say it's because Algerians are Muslims. France also faces no terror threat from former colonies Morocco, Lebanon or Syria.)

Torture, useful? Only if you consciously want to create a longlasting relationship of retribution and hate.

Torture is never justified. To torture is always to do evil.

Gee Mike, does Malcolm Nance sound like a "screaming liberal" to you?

"Malcolm W. Nance is a counter-terrorism and terrorism intelligence consultant for the U.S. government’s Special Operations, Homeland Security and Intelligence agencies. A 20-year veteran of the US intelligence community's Combating Terrorism program and a six year veteran of the Global War on Terrorism he has extensive field and combat experience as an field intelligence collections operator, an Arabic speaking interrogator and a master Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape (SERE) instructor."

Read what he has to say on the subject of torture:

http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/2007/10/waterboarding-is-torture-perio/

"We live at a time where Americans, completely uninformed by an incurious media and enthralled by vengeance-based fantasy television shows like “24”, are actually cheering and encouraging such torture as justifiable revenge for the September 11 attacks. Having been a rescuer in one of those incidents and personally affected by both attacks, I am bewildered at how casually we have thrown off the mantle of world-leader in justice and honor. Who we have become? Because at this juncture, after Abu Ghraieb and other undignified exposed incidents of murder and torture, we appear to have become no better than our opponents."

Regards

A Hermit

1) The key issue to me is the the extremism implied in the question "ever". Let us all calm down and discuss normalcy, the average, the unlikely, the highly unlikely, the once in a 1000 times. Once in a million doesn't count.
2) Higher in my priorities is what torture does to the torturer, only the what happens to the tortured. I have seen what happens to Correction Officers who lose any compassion for their wards - ugly human beings.
3) We have created an ugly, nasty citizenry with very little net gain in safety and a great loss of friends. I would much rather live in a neighborhood of friends with one psychopath loose than a neighborhood without nut cases whose residents I have pissed off.
4) "Turn the other cheek" all the time? Of course not. A measured response that winds down the anger; not escalates it. The three Rs of "Retaliation, Retribution and Revenge" are cancers of the soul, that will be remembered for millenia.
5) It doesn't get the truth - see the Iraq War.

1) The key issue to me is the the extremism implied in the question "ever". Let us all calm down and discuss normalcy, the average, the unlikely, the highly unlikely, the once in a 1000 times. Once in a million doesn't count.
2) Higher in my priorities is what torture does to the torturer, only the what happens to the tortured. I have seen what happens to Correction Officers who lose any compassion for their wards - ugly human beings.
3) We have created an ugly, nasty citizenry with very little net gain in safety and a great loss of friends. I would much rather live in a neighborhood of friends with one psychopath loose than a neighborhood without nut cases whose residents I have pissed off.
4) "Turn the other cheek" all the time? Of course not. A measured response that winds down the anger; not escalates it. The three Rs of "Retaliation, Retribution and Revenge" are cancers of the soul, that will be remembered for millenia.

If one takes the position, "Yes, torture is immoral but I'm going to do it anyway, because I want to," then that is a principled position. I suspect, however, that Christian apologists for torture (apparently including President Bush) are not principled in this way. I also suspect that the approach to religion that justifies the use of torture by the United States in the so-called "war on terror" reveals a fundamentally immoral foundation in fundamentalist religion. The fundamental immorality is the doctrine that membership in a self-identifying group of humans is equivalent to, or a substitute for, the favor of a universal deity. Thus, "I believe, I am saved, I am forgiven" serves as a license to do the unspeakable against those who do not profess the same beliefs, salvation, and/or forgiveness. This is certainly true for the militant Islamic fundamentalist, and it appears to be true for those Christians who countenance the use of torture against suspected terrorists. Reflecting on this, I have come to the conclusion that fundamentalists, by and large, do not believe in the religions they profess. Instead, they appear to believe that they become better than other people by virtue of their memberships in the groups that profess these fundamentalist religions. In truth, an all-powerful universal deity has no need of human assistance. To believe otherwise is to disbelieve in the existence of an all-powerful universal deity. Therefore, groups that purport to do for an all-powerful universal deity what the deity is otherwise incapable of accomplishing are either lying or self-deceived. These groups appear to be focused primarily on the self-contgratulation of their members for being superior to their fellow humans than they are on contemplating, or in any way acknowledging, an all-powerful universal deity. For example, with regard to torture, those who justify it appear to be saying, "We are afraid of the physical harm and the social upheaval that may accompany widespread terrorism. And we do not have faith in an all-powerful universal deity in any way to assist us apart from what we ourselves can accomplish directly. Because of our confusion and blindness, we are going to discard every shred of human decency and engage in actions we stridently condemn when they are done by others. Finally, we are going to use our positions as public spokemen for and leaders of our religious and political groups to explain that this is acceptable because we are 'saved,' by which we mean only that we are members of the groups for which we serve as spokesmen and leaders." This is the true state of religion in America.

DAVID R EWING writes:
"I could not personally torture, but to save my wife, children and grandchildre from death and injury I would ask out leaders/government to do whatever it takes to get the information to save them AND our country."

Anybody who would condone the torture of someone else's wife children and grandchildren to save their own wife, children and grandchildren is not worthy of being saved.

A country that condones the use of torture to save itself is not worth saving.

BTW, David - by endorsing the use of torture by "our leaders/government," you are quite personally engaging in the torture yourself, even if you aren't the one pouring the water or turning the thumbscrews.

Keep that in mind the next time you look in your child's eyes. If you're at all human, you'll see not only your child's eyes, but the eyes of those children you tortured as an accessory before the fact, looking back at you and gaining not an ounce of pity from you. Keep it in mind the next time you wipe a tear of sadness from your child's face - it represents the tears of pain felt by those children and their parents who you felt it was OK to torture so your own family could be spared the very FEAR that their lives might be threatened.

Closing BTW - thanks for so cavalierly trampling underfoot the MORALS and ETHICS of those who died protecting the American way of life, ie: those who laid down their own lives to protect an ideal, rather than stooping to the level of humanity's worst and engaging in acts that stand at the polar end of what this country is supposed to be about.

Were you really concerned about the American way, you would stand by the morals and ethics that have served us for so well, rather than abandoning them and embracing that which we have always fought against.

You come off as a self-centered opportunist to me. I don't for a second believe that love of country and/or your fellow Americans even enters into your equation.

What nonsense.

First of all, the question has NOTHING to do with faith. It (like all issues discussed on this fraudulent blog) is overtly political.

Second, the answers all come from angry liberals and all say the same thing.

This board is a joke. It is just another political blog for liberals and by liberals.

Why are liberals so afraid of opinions that are different than their own? Could they not find even one response from someone other than a screaming liberal?

Naivte is what encouraged Hitler. I could not personally torture, but to save my wife, children and grandchildre from death and injury I would ask out leaders/government to do whatever it takes to get the information to save them AND our country. Many a peace officer and soldier have been killed by failing to take direct action . . . the threat of death in and of itself is torture.

Naivte is what encouraged Hitler. I could not personally torture, but to save my wife, children and grandchildre from death and injury I would ask out leaders/government to do whatever it takes to get the information to save them AND our country. Many a peace officer and soldier have been killed by tailing to take direct action . . . the threat of death in and of itself is torture.

Naivte is what encouraged Hitler. I could not personally torture, but to save my wife, children and grandchildren from death and injury I would ask our leaders/government to do whatever it takes to get the information to save them AND our country. Many a peace officer and soldier have been killed by failing to take direct action . . . the threat of death in and of itself is torture.

Jesus defined a Christian as one who follows the teachings of his word. Jesus was a man of peace and love.
Jesus warned of False Prophets, and False Religions, and you would know them by there fruits. People have alot to think about when judging others.

Jesus defined a Christian as one who follows the teachings of his word. Jesus was a man of peace and love.
Jesus warned of False Prophets, and False Religions, and you would know them by there fruits. People have alot to think about when judging others.

Jesus defined a Christian as one who follows the teachings of his word. Jesus was a man of peace and love.
Jesus warned of False Prophets, and False Religions, and you would know them by there fruits. People have alot to think about when judging others.

The fact that we continue to waste time and effort on this debate is just astounding. Are we really debating whether or not a liberal democracy such as ours should be torturing people? We quite clearly should not. The lawyerly defense of "what is torture" would be laughable were it not enabling such disgraceful behavior. The folks that made the executive decision to subject our enemies to treatment that we have deemed criminal in the past should be held to pay for that choice. Such a course is mandatory for America to set foot one on the long road back to a respectable moral standing.

Here is the opinion of a former Master Instructor and Chief of Training at the US Navy Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape School (SERE) in San Diego:

http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/2007/10/waterboarding-is-torture-perio/

1. Waterboarding is a torture technique. Period. There is no way to gloss over it or sugarcoat it. It has no justification outside of its limited role as a training demonstrator...

2. Waterboarding is not a simulation. Unless you have been strapped down to the board, have endured the agonizing feeling of the water overpowering your gag reflex, and then feel your throat open and allow pint after pint of water to involuntarily fill your lungs, you will not know the meaning of the word.

Waterboarding is a controlled drowning that, in the American model, occurs under the watch of a doctor, a psychologist, an interrogator and a trained strap-in/strap-out team. It does not simulate drowning, as the lungs are actually filling with water. There is no way to simulate that. The victim is drowning...

3. If you support the use of waterboarding on enemy captives, you support the use of that torture on any future American captives...

Atten: Sally Quinn. Re: Your column of 11-07-07 of comments on Torture.
It is increasingly apparent that the spirit of the
U.S. is not broken, and the preponderance of opinions is for decent and humane treatment of persons, who must be awarded their constitutional
rights, under law. As a lifelong republican, I must admit to being ashamed of the treatment being meted out by the present administration, without regard to law, and to the congress and Senate that supports the treatment.
Cyrano.

Atten: Sally Quinn. Re: Your column of 11-07-07 of comments on Torture.
It is increasingly apparent that the spirit of the
U.S. is not broken, and the preponderance of opinions is for decent and humane treatment of persons, who must be awarded their constitutional
rights, under law. As a lifelong republican, I must admit to being ashamed of the treatment being meted out by the present administration, without regard to law, and to the congress and Senate that supports the treatment.
Cyrano.

CTCNL writes:

"Comparisons: waterboarding vs. suicide bombing massacres? waterboarding vs. loss of arms, legs and/or sight? waterboarding vs. five hundred pound bombs? waterboarding vs. fire bombing? waterboarding vs. cluster bombing? waterboarding vs. hydrogen/atomic bomb holocausts?"

You're referencing broadly based means of indiscriminate attack against entire populations and comparing them to torture directed specifically at an individual.

The comparison isn't apt.

The Realm of Reality: War is Hell!!! We enter Hell to include its torture and its terror to win said wars!!! That is and has always been the nature of war.

Comparisons: waterboarding vs. suicide bombing massacres? waterboarding vs. loss of arms, legs and/or sight? waterboarding vs. five hundred pound bombs? waterboarding vs. fire bombing? waterboarding vs. cluster bombing? waterboarding vs. hydrogen/atomic bomb holocausts?

It should be very simple for a Christian to answer. The Torah commands to love your neighbor as yourself. Jesus called this one of the two greatest commandments. He (and Paul, for that matter) also said to love your enemies, and to do to others what you would want done to you. And let's not forget what they and many other Christians and Jews suffered at the hands of the Romans back then.

It should also be simple for any American to answer, chiefly because, yes, it does most definitely vindicate our enemies--and not just our present ones, but our past foes as well, many of whom used the exact same techniques that our government is using today.

Nope...torture is never justified! Period! It is never alright to cause anyone else pain, unless you are the Supreme Being! (whoever that may be!)

USA: R.I.P.

Once the beacon of liberty and home of the brave...

Now, as it is sliding into a major recession, it has become the darkest nation of the west and home of the executive's terrorists.

It all started with the failure to investigate what really happened on 9/11......

What ever happened to defending the consitution from foreign and DOMESTIC threats?

USA: R.I.P.

Once the beacon of liberty and home of the brave...

Now, as it is sliding into a major recession, it has become the darkest nation of the west and home of the executive's terrorists.

It all started with the failure to investigate what really happened on 9/11......

What ever happened to defending the consitution from foreign and DOMESTIC threats?

torture is an award winning american reality tv show ? how can we oppose it when its a hit for so many 'alien' type viewers ? maybe that was the concept behind the show to begin with ?

torture is an award winning american reality tv show ? how can we oppose it when its a hit for so many 'alien' type viewers ? maybe that was the concept behind the show to begin with ?

torture is an award winning american reality tv show ? how can we oppose it when its a hit for so many 'alien' type viewers ? maybe that was the concept behind the show to begin with ?

Our foolish decision to torture is, along with our hideously stupid decision to surrender so much as a
shred of civil liberty in the name of false security, a nice fat victory for the terrorists.

The terrorists don't worry me much. The terrorists' mush-headed assistants inside the US (ie. Paul Webb) worry me quite a bit.

Bush: The United States of Bush Does Not Torture

I have heard him say this. Haven't you?

He looks us straight in the eye and says this.

Of course, if Bush says it is not torture, it's not torture, right?

(and Clinton looked us straight in the eye and said "i did not have s*xu*l relations with that woman."

It depended on what the meaning of is was.

Torture is never justified--not as long as we act according to the constitution and international conventions we have signed. By abandoning the fundamental American value we hand terrorists the victory and we become just like them.
Neither torture conducted by U.S. agents nor the outsourcing of torture to states that are regularly listed as violators of human rights will be helpful in the struggle against terrorism but rather harmful.
See more on this,
http://www.reflectivepundit.com/reflectivepundit/2007/10/torture-the-sha.html#more

Just to be clear, I'm not making anti-American statement here; Canadian officials haven't exactly covered themselves in glory in these cases, either.

Regards

A Hermit

Mr Mark:

Thanks for posting the Maher Arar link. As a Canadian it's a story I've followed quite closely. Arar's wife, Monia Mazigh, is a hero. If it weren't for her persistence and courage he would have been forgotten by his own government.

Sadly, he isn't the only Canadian to be treated this way:

http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2006/09/false_confessio_1.html#more

The only "evidence" against Arar, Al Malki and El-Maati, apart form the false confessions beaten out of them by their captors, was a map found in the cab of El_Maati's truck by US border guards. It showed the location of Canadian government buildings in Ottawa.

Of course, the fact that he was a truck driver who made deliveries in Ottawa, and the map was published by the Canadian government for delivery drivers so they could find the buildings they were delivering to didn't matter as much as the fact that he was brown skinned and had a funny name.

On such "evidence" inoocent people are labeled "terrorist", kidnapped, transported to third world dictatorships and tortured on behalf of frightened American conservatives.

Makes you wonder what happened to America...

Regards

A Hermit

and Froomkin's piece in the Post today is about another piece of garbage intelligence we got from a rendition - info the Powell used to justify the war that turned out to be nonsense invented by the victim tortured by the Egyptians.

THE USE OF TORTURE SHOW "THE MIND" WHERE THERE BE LITTLE DEVELOPMENT OF BRAIN.IF BEING AS NO REASON TO TORTURE,THEN SUCH CIRCUMSTANCES MADE, ALLOWED BRINGING AN SITUATION,WHERE SUPPORTED ONE GIVEN THE FREEDOM,TO COMMITT AN VARIETY OF THE MOST VILEST ACTS,AGIN THE MOST VULNERABLE.

Tortured by Mistake
The case of Maher Arar shows why the Bush administration's secret detention program is wrong.

Wednesday, September 20, 2006; Page A24

A COUPLE of years ago, President Bush might well have counted Maher Arar as one of the success stories of the CIA's secret program for detaining and interrogating suspected terrorists. Mr. Arar, a Canadian citizen, was arrested at New York's John F. Kennedy International Airport in September 2002 because he was on a watchlist; Canadian police said they believed he had connections to al-Qaeda. Rather than being returned to Canada, Mr. Arar disappeared into the CIA's secret system -- he was transported to Syria and handed over to its military intelligence service. For several weeks, Mr. Arar was tortured by his Syrian captors, who beat him with an electric cable. Eventually he broke and confessed that he had trained at an al-Qaeda camp in Afghanistan.

The problem with this story, as an official Canadian investigation reported Monday, is that Mr. Arar was innocent. "Categorically there is no evidence" that Mr. Arar was a terrorist or posed a security threat, the report stated. He never traveled to Afghanistan. The Canadian police intelligence about him was simply wrong. But after his coerced confession, he was held in a Syrian dungeon for 10 months and suffered "devastating" mental and economic harm before finally being released in 2003.

Mr. Arar's case vividly illustrates a couple of the points that veteran military and diplomatic leaders have been trying to impress on Mr. Bush about the dangers of the CIA program, for which the president is demanding congressional approval. From early 2002 until this month the agency held some al-Qaeda suspects in secret prisons and subjected them to harsh interrogation techniques that, though they don't include beatings with cables, violate the Geneva Conventions and current U.S. law. Others, like Mr. Arar, have been secretly handed over to foreign governments known to use torture in interrogations, including Egypt and Jordan as well as Syria -- a practice known as "rendition."

Mr. Bush claims that the renditions, secret detentions and harsh U.S. techniques -- which most of the world regards as torture -- have yielded important intelligence. But as the military commanders who oppose such methods have insistently and courageously pointed out, it is well known that the information they produce is unreliable. Many detainees, as Mr. Arar did, will falsely incriminate themselves or others to avoid abuse. Over time, better intelligence can be obtained by working within guidelines mandating humane treatment of detainees -- such as those in the new Army interrogation manual released this month.

Moreover, as Mr. Arar's case illustrates, cruel treatment of prisoners, even in secret, eventually becomes known and can badly damage the honor and influence of the United States and its relations with allies. The mistreatment of Mr. Arar has hurt U.S. relations with Canada and could impede cooperation with its police and security services in the future. Other cases of rendition have similarly upset U.S. intelligence relations with Italy, Germany and Sweden.

It's no wonder that two former Republican secretaries of state, Colin L. Powell and George P. Shultz, oppose Mr. Bush's attempt to modify U.S. compliance with the Geneva Conventions to permit future secret detentions and renditions by the CIA. Or that military leaders ranging from Gen. John W. Vessey Jr., a former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, to Maj. Gen. Scott C. Black, the senior serving uniformed lawyer in the Army, also oppose the president's initiative. They understand well what Mr. Bush refuses to see -- that the price of his policies is bad intelligence, the criminal mistreatment of some innocent people, and damage to U.S. prestige and alliances that the country can ill afford.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/19/AR2006091901547.html

Torture can only be justified under the most torturously contrived set of circumstances, like the ones that proponents of the practice are fond of creating. "If we knew that a person had information that, if revealed, could prevent the deaths of thousands or millions of people..." It's laughable that anyone would seriously seek to establish U.S. policy based on such ludicrous scenarios, but that is exactly what the President, his administration and his supporters have done. The very existence of this debate is a symptom of National Stupidity. No wonder our approval rating has plummeted everyhwhere in the world.

Atten: Sally Quinn. Re: Your column on Torture
dated 11-7-07.
I commend your column as the best summation of that subject I have ever read, and I wonder why you don't include the condemnation of the conduct of the U.S. Government, including the transportation of persons, or rendition of persons to other countries where torture is permitted.Your summation of the emergency powers of the president is amazingly accurate, and is frighteningly descriptive of Hitlers march to one man rule, and the dismantling of the Weimar republic in '36. Your comments on ways to stop this decent into Hell will be gratefully received.
With utmost sincerity: Cyrano

Atten: Sally Quinn. Re: Your column on Torture
dated 11-7-07.
I commend your column as the best summation of that subject I have ever read, and I wonder why you don't include the condemnation of the conduct of the U.S. Government, including the transportation of persons, or rendition of persons to other countries where torture is permitted.Your summation of the emergency powers of the president is amazingly accurate, and is frighteningly descriptive of Hitlers march to one man rule, and the dismantling of the Weimar republic in '36. Your comments on ways to stop this decent into Hell will be gratefully received.
With utmost sincerity: Cyrano

Torture can only be justified under the most torturously contrived set of circumstances, like the ones that proponents of the practice are fond of creating. "If we knew that a person had information that, if revealed, could prevent the deaths of thousands or millions of people..." It's laughable that anyone would seriously seek to establish U.S. policy based on such ludicrous scenarios, but that is exactly what the President, his administration and his supporters have done. The very existence of this debate is a symptom of National Stupidity. No wonder our approval rating has plummeted everyhwhere in the world.

I strongly suspect that the real motive of torture is to instill fear in the victim and those who support the victim's cause. That's one of many reasons that terror is unjust.

I strongly suspect that the real motive of torture is to instill fear in the victim and those who support the victim's cause. That's one of many reasons that terror is unjust.

I strongly suspect that the real motive of torture is to instill fear in the victim and those who support the victim's cause. That's one of many reasons that terror is unjust.

I strongly suspect that the real motive of torture is to instill fear in the victim and those who support the victim's cause. That's one of many reasons that terror is unjust.

"Can the use of torture ever be justified?"

No. Never.

It will still happen though. We have pushed each other to that extreme now.

From Act 1, A Man For All Seasons, by Robert Bolt:

Rich (Enthusiastically pursuing an argument) But every man has his price!

(Sir Thomas) MORE No no no.

* * *

RICH But yes. In money too.

MORE No no no.

RICH Or pleasure. Titles, women, bricks-and-mortar, there's always something.

MORE Childish.

RICH Well, in suffering, certainly.

MORE (Interested) Buy a man with suffering?

RICH Impose suffering, and offer him - escape.

MORE Oh. For a moment there I thought you were being profound.

As Robert Bolt suggests, suffering imposed on the believer (of any faith) results in santicfication. One must wonder if there are any similarities between Christians view of Christ, and another faiths (any faith's) view of suicide attacks. And so torture only begs the question: what are we really buying? I would posit that the result is unacceptable from a moral perspective as well as Mr. Thomas' utilitarian perspective.

this, and the present situation in pakistan where musharraf has declared an emergency and suspended the constitution reminded me of this-

Wednesday, May 23, 2007

President George W. Bush has sparked much alarm by openly declaring himself to be a dictator in the event of a national emergency under new provisions that will effectively nullify the U.S. constitution, but such an infrastructure has been in place for over 70 years and this merely represents a re-authorization of the infrastructure of martial law.

New legislation signed on May 9, 2007, declares that in the event of a "catastrophic event", the President can take total control over the government and the country, bypassing all other levels of government at the state, federal, local, territorial and tribal levels, and thus ensuring total unprecedented dictatorial power.

The National Security and Homeland Security Presidential Directive, which also places the Secretary of Homeland Security in charge of domestic "security", was signed earlier this month without the approval or oversight of Congress and seemingly supercedes the National Emergency Act which allows the president to declare a national emergency but also requires that Congress have the authority to "modify, rescind, or render dormant" such emergency authority if it believes the president has acted inappropriately.

Journalist Jerome Corsi, who has studied the directive also states that it makes no reference to Congress and "its language appears to negate any requirement that the president submit to Congress a determination that a national emergency exists."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

JEROME CORSI
Bush makes power grab

Posted: May 23, 2007

President Bush, without so much as issuing a press statement, on May 9 signed a directive that granted near dictatorial powers to the office of the president in the event of a national emergency declared by the president.

The "National Security and Homeland Security Presidential Directive," with the dual designation of NSPD-51, as a National Security Presidential Directive, and HSPD-20, as a Homeland Security Presidential Directive, establishes under the office of president a new National Continuity Coordinator.

That job, as the document describes, is to make plans for "National Essential Functions" of all federal, state, local, territorial, and tribal governments, as well as private sector organizations to continue functioning under the president's directives in the event of a national emergency.

The directive loosely defines "catastrophic emergency" as "any incident, regardless of location, that results in extraordinary levels of mass casualties, damage, or disruption severely affecting the U.S. population, infrastructure, environment, economy, or government functions."

When the president determines a catastrophic emergency has occurred, the president can take over all government functions and direct all private sector activities to ensure we will emerge from the emergency with an "enduring constitutional government."

Translated into layman's terms, when the president determines a national emergency has occurred, the president can declare to the office of the presidency powers usually assumed by dictators to direct any and all government and business activities until the emergency is declared over.

Ironically, the directive sees no contradiction in the assumption of dictatorial powers by the president with the goal of MAINTAINING constitutional continuity through an emergency.

The directive issued May 9 makes no attempt to reconcile the powers created there for the National Continuity Coordinator with the National Emergency Act. As specified by U.S. Code Title 50, Chapter 34, Subchapter II, Section 1621, the National Emergency Act allows that the president may declare a national emergency but requires that such proclamation "shall immediately be transmitted to the Congress and published in the Federal Register."

A Congressional Research Service study notes that under the National Emergency Act, the president "may seize property, organize and control the means of production, seize commodities, assign military forces abroad, institute martial law, seize and control all transportation and communication, regulate the operation of private enterprise, restrict travel, and, in a variety of ways, control the lives of United States citizens."

The CRS study notes that the National Emergency Act sets up congress as a balance empowered to "modify, rescind, or render dormant such delegated emergency authority," if Congress believes the president has acted inappropriately.

NSPD-51/ HSPD-20 appears to supersede the National Emergency Act by creating the new position of National Continuity Coordinator without any specific act of Congress authorizing the position.

NSPD-51/ HSPD-20 also makes no reference whatsoever to Congress. The language of the May 9 directive appears to negate any a requirement that the president submit to Congress a determination that a national emergency exists, suggesting instead that the powers of the executive order can be implemented without any congressional approval or oversight.

The White House had no comment.

CORSI'S ARTICLE
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55824

NSPD-51
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/05/20070509-12.html

How does our country find people who would do these horrific things to another living being? It degrades the torturer and the one who orders it to a subhuman level. That to me is the question. Not what is torture. Anything that we do not want done to ourselves is torture.

How does our country find people who would do these horrific things to another living being? It degrades the torturer and the one who orders it to a subhuman level. That to me is the question. Not what is torture. Anything that we do not want done to ourselves is torture.

How does our country find people who would do these horrific things to another living being? It degrades the torturer and the one who orders it to a subhuman level. That to me is the question. Not what is torture. Anything that we do not want done to ourselves is torture.

How does our country find people who would do these horrific things to another living being? It degrades the torturer and the one who orders it to a subhuman level. That to me is the question. Not what is torture. Anything that we do not want done to ourselves is torture.

One word.

No.

Why do people who do wrong want justification for it? Do wrong and and have the b*lls to live with it - or don't do it.

We now see American officials abroad refusing to condemn the practice of waterboarding even if it is used on American service members.

How low has America sunk?

Can the use of torture ever be justified?

Under no circumstances, with no uncertainty, never, NO.

Paul Webb, what do you think of the Roman's decision to torture that radical Jew named Jesus?

I don't care how evil these people are or whether or not we believe torture-extracted information may save lives.

If faced with the choice between the protection of civil liberties for all and the preservation of our lives, should we not choose the former?

I used to think liberty over life is what America stood for, but the first reply in this thread has me wondering if we've not turned into a mediocre democracy of weak resolve.

Indeed, I do not know what America stands for anymore, and this distresses me.

I don't care how evil these people are or whether or not we believe torture-extracted information may save lives.

If faced with the choice between the protection of civil liberties for all and the preservation of our lives, should we not choose the former?

I used to think liberty over life is what America stood for, but the first reply in this thread has me wondering if we've not turned into a mediocre democracy of weak resolve.

Indeed, I do not know what America stands for anymore, and this distresses me.

Paul Webb, what do you think of the Roman's decision to torture that radical Jew named Jesus?

Torture is valid IF you also wish to be tortured. The basic rule of civilization is this "Treat people the way you wish to be treated". The opposite of the Golden Rule is "Treat people the way they treat you".

If we are to save civilization we must not torture.

Paul Webb :
**Ms. Jacoby,
The radical Islamists have driven us past being civilized with their kind. Let those barbarians know that we WILL do whatever is necessary to protect our innocent citizens from their acts of lunacy.**

If you stoop to the level of your enemy, and perform acts as heinous as those which comprise your reason for fighting him, how are you any better than he is?

Torture is valid IF you also wish to be tortured. The basic rule of civilization is this "Treat people the way you wish to be treated". The opposite of the Golden Rule is "Treat people the way they treat you".

If we are to save civilization we must not torture.

Paul Webb does not care to be in the Web of Civilized Nations.

Thank you, Victoria, for your sourcing.

I suspect people like Paul have no concern for the Geneva Conventions or the UN definitions.

His attitude is responsible for the fact that about 20% of the people in the world have any respect for the moral leadership or adherence to civilized standards that the United States of Bush exhibit.

this is NOT just a goody goody liberal issue.

It severely damages our *national security* in many ways, that will be obvious to most of us except Paul

Ms. Jacoby,
The radical Islamists have driven us past being civilized with their kind. Let those barbarians know that we WILL do whatever is necessary to protect our innocent citizens from their acts of lunacy.

USA GOVERNMENT,IT'S ABANDONMENT OF INTERNATIONAL AS DOMESTIC LAW,HAVING THEN KIDNAPPED PEOPLE'S WORLDWIDE,WHEREUPON THESE POOR SOULS,IMPRISONED MANY THOUSANDS IN NUMBERS,CHARGED WITH NO CRIME, WHERE ONCE THEY IMPRISONED,BECOMING THE VICTIMS OF APPALLING,ACTS OF PHYSICAL AS MENTAL TORTURE, BEING SLAUGHTERED,LACKING TRACE OF COMPASSION AS MERCY. CAN SUCH ACTS OF BRUTALITY,INHUMANITY BE JUSTIFIED ? NO, THEY CAN NOT... .. .

Torture, Smorture

this item from the campaign to elect our next Fearless Leader

"Giuliani earned a bitter slapdown (from McCain's camp) after seeming to belittle Democrats who called sleep deprivation a form of torture.

"They talk about sleep deprivation," Giuliani told Iowa voters two weeks ago. "I mean, on that theory, I'm getting tortured running for President of the United States. That's plain silly."

If Rudy thinks that silly, he should try Waterboarding. Now THAT is truly ridiculous.

cal thomas seemed confused about how to define torture

luckily, its been done

amnesty international source

What is torture?
Torture cannot be defined by a list of prohibited practices. Human rights treaties define it in a number of different ways, reflecting the different contexts in which they were drafted and the purposes of each particular treaty.

The Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment was adopted by the United Nations General Assembly in 1984 and entered into force on June 26, 1987.

It defines torture as any act by which:
severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental; is intentionally inflicted on a person; for such purposes as:
obtaining from him/her or a third person information or a confession
obtaining from him/her or a third person information or a confession
punishing him/her for an act s/he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed
intimidating or coercing him/her or a third person
or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind;
when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity.*
*Amnesty International believes that acts of violence by private individuals constitute torture when they are of the nature and severity envisaged by the concept of torture in international standards and when the state has failed to fulfill its obligation to provide effective protection against such acts of violence.

What is ill treatment?
It is impossible to draw a clear dividing line between ''torture'' and other ''cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.? Whether an act of ill treatment constitutes torture depends on a number of factors, including the nature and severity of the abuse. Both torture and ill treatment are prohibited in all circumstances by international law.

In times of international armed conflict, ill treatment (described as "inhuman treatment'' and ''willfully causing great suffering, or serious injury to body or health' in the Geneva Conventions) are prohibited and criminalized as grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions. These grave breaches are also incorporated in the jurisdiction of the Yugoslavia Tribunal and of the International Criminal Court.

Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions prohibits ''violence to life and person,'' in particular ''mutilation, cruel treatment and torture'' and also prohibits ''outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment''. These terms include ''other forms of cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment or punishment." The drafters of common Article 3 avoided a detailed list of prohibited acts in order to ensure that it had the broadest possible reach, leaving no loophole. As the official commentary by the International Committee of the Red Cross explained:

''It is always dangerous to go into too much detail -- especially in this domain. However great the care taken in drawing up a list of all the various forms of infliction, it would never be possible to catch up with the imagination of future torturers who wished to satisfy their bestial instincts; the more specific and complete a list tries to be, the more restrictive it becomes. The form of wording adopted is flexible, and, at the same time, precise.''

Every act of torture is a crime under international law.
If torture is committed in an armed conflict, it constitutes the war crime of torture.
If torture is committed as part of a systematic or a widespread pattern of similar acts, it constitutes the crime against humanity of torture.
The Convention against Torture prohibits torture as an independent crime, as a war crime, and as a crime against humanity, absolutely and in all circumstances.
The Geneva Conventions prohibit the war crime of torture in both international wars and internal conflicts such as civil wars or rebellions.
The Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court prohibits torture when it constitutes genocide, a crime against humanity or a war crime.
Are there exceptions to the prohibition against torture?
No. Article 2(2) of the Convention states that: "No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat of war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture."

The prohibition of torture has a special status in international law. It is part of customary international law, which means it is binding on all states, whether or not they have ratified any of the international human rights treaties.

The prohibition on torture is also a ''peremptory norm,'' which means that it cannot be overruled by any other law or by local custom.

May the United States extradite a person to country where s/he might face torture?
No. Article 3.1 of the Convention against Torture states that: ?No State Party shall expel, return ("refouler") or extradite a person to another State where there are substantial grounds for believing that he would be in danger of being subjected to torture.?

On October 21, 1998, Congress adopted the United States Policy with Respect to the Involuntary Return of Persons in Danger of Subjection to Torture as part of the Foreign Affairs Reform and Restructuring Act. According to Section (a): "[i]t shall be the policy of the United States not to expel, extradite, or otherwise effect the involuntary return of any person to a country in which there are substantial grounds for believing the person would be in danger of being subjected to torture, regardless of whether the person is physically present in the United States."

Has the United States accepted the obligations set forth in the Convention against Torture?
The United States ratified the Convention against Torture in October 1994. The Convention entered into force for the United States on November 20, 1994.

What statements has the United States government made about its compliance with the guidelines set forth by the Convention?
As a party to the Convention, the United States is required to submit periodic reports describing its compliance with the Convention to the Committee against Torture. Following are excerpts from the Initial Report the United States submitted to the Committee against Torture in 1999 (CAT/C/28/Add.5) that pertain to questions such as ?Is torture a crime in the US?? and ?What remedies are available?? (Read the entire report)

Excerpts from the Report
6. Torture is prohibited by law throughout the United States. It is categorically denounced as a matter of policy and as a tool of state authority. Every act constituting torture under the Convention constitutes a criminal offence under the law of the United States. No official of the Government, federal, state or local, civilian or military, is authorized to commit or to instruct anyone else to commit torture. Nor may any official condone or tolerate torture in any form. No exceptional circumstances may be invoked as a justification of torture. United States law contains no provision permitting otherwise prohibited acts of torture or other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment to be employed on grounds of exigent circumstances (for example, during a ?state of public emergency?) or on orders from a superior officer or public authority, and the protective mechanisms of an independent judiciary are not subject to suspension. The United States is committed to the full and effective implementation of its obligations under the Convention throughout its territory. [p. 5]

11. .... Although there is no federal law criminalizing torture per se, any act falling within the Convention?s definition of torture is clearly illegal and prosecutable everywhere in the country, for example as an assault or battery, murder or manslaughter, kidnapping or abduction, false arrest or imprisonment, sexual abuse, or violation of civil rights. [p. 6]

49. Torture has always been proscribed by the Eighth Amendment to the United States Constitution, which prohibits ?cruel and unusual punishments?. This Amendment is directly applicable to actions of the Federal Government and, through the Fourteenth Amendment, to those of the constituent states.... While the constitutional and statutory law of the individual states in some cases offers more extensive or more specific protections, the protections of the right to life and liberty, personal freedom and physical integrity found in the Fourth, Fifth and Eighth Amendments to the United States Constitution provide a nationwide standard of treatment beneath which no governmental entity may fall. The constitutional nature of this protection means that it applies to the actions of officials throughout the United States at all levels of government; all individuals enjoy protection under the Constitution, regardless of nationality or citizenship. [p. 13]

47. In 1994, Congress enacted a new federal law to implement the requirements of the Convention against Torture relating to acts of torture committed outside United States territory. This law, which is codified at 18 U.S.C. § 2340 et seq., extends United States criminal jurisdiction over any act of (or attempt to commit) torture outside the United States by a United States national or by an alleged offender present in the United States regardless of his or her nationality. The statute adopts the Convention?s definition of torture, consistent with the terms of United States ratification. It permits the criminal prosecution of alleged torturers in federal courts in specified circumstances. [p. 13]

51. Remedies. United States law provides various avenues for seeking redress, including financial compensation in cases of torture and other violations of constitutional and statutory rights relevant to the Convention. Besides the general rights of appeal, these can include any of the following, depending on the circumstances [pp. 14-15]:

Some avenues for seeking redress
Seeking a writ of habeas corpus, which guarantees judicial review of the reasons for and conditions of detention and ensures that a person who believes his or her detention violates constitutionally protected rights has access to an independent and impartial court for a determination of its propriety;
Filing criminal charges, which can lead to investigation and possible prosecution;
Bringing a civil action in federal or state court under the federal civil rights statute, 42 U.S.C. § 1983, directly against state or local officials for money damages or injunctive relief;
Seeking damages for negligence of federal officials and for negligence and intentional torts of federal law enforcement officers under the Federal Tort Claims Act, 22 U.S.C. § 2671 et seq., or of other state and municipal officials under comparable state statutes;
Suing federal officials directly under provisions of the United States Constitution for ?constitutional torts?, see Bivens v. Six Unknown Named Agents, 403 U.S. 388 (1971), and Davis v. Passman, 442 U.S. 228 (1979);
Challenging official action or inaction through judicial procedures in state courts and under state law, based in statutory or constitutional provisions;
Seeking civil damages from participants in conspiracies to deny civil rights under 42 U.S.C. § 1985;
Bringing civil suits for damages based on international legal prohibitions against torture under the Alien Tort Claims Act, and the Torture Victims Protection Act, 28 U.S.C. § 1350, and note;
Pursuing administrative remedies, including proceedings before civilian complaints review boards, for the review of alleged police misconduct;
The Federal Government may institute civil proceedings under the Pattern or Practice of Police Misconduct Provision of the Crime Bill of 1994, 42 U.S.C. § 14141, to eliminate patterns or practices of misconduct by law enforcement agencies and their parent organizations. Similarly, the Federal Government may institute administrative and civil proceedings against law enforcement agencies receiving federal funds who discriminate on the basis of race, sex, national origin, or religion;
Individuals may bring administrative actions and civil suits against law enforcement agencies receiving federal funding that discriminate on the basis of race, sex, national origin, or religion, under the federal civil rights laws. See 42 U.S.C. § 2000d (Title VI) and 42 U.S.C. § 3789d (Safe Streets Act);
In the case of persons in detention, the Federal Government may institute proceedings under the Civil Rights of Institutionalized Persons Act, 42 U.S.C. § 1997, to eliminate a pattern or practice of abuse in any state prison, jail or detention facility.
61. Judicial reference to the Convention. The Convention against Torture has been cited and referenced in a number of federal judicial proceedings to date, including, inter alia, the following decisions?. [p. 19]

62. A number of federal courts have also recognized that the right to be free from torture and cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment is an accepted norm of customary international law.... [p. 19]

63. In many of these cases, United States courts looked to the Convention for guidance in determining whether there exists a customary international legal norm which prohibits torture and cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment. Although it is not self-executing, the Convention was viewed by these courts as illustrative of the general agreement among states that such practices are unlawful. Thus, the Convention has played a significant role in the development of international human rights law in United States courts. [pp. 19-20]

http://www.amnestyusa.org/Reports_Statements_and_Issue_Briefs/Torture_and_the_Law/page.do?id=1107981&n1=3&n2=38&n3=1052

They should just get the person drunk

No, never. Torture is unjust, because it demeans and brutalizes its practitioners just as surely (although less painfully) as it does its victims. Torture is ineffective in obtaining reliable information, but it is effective in coercing a victim or subject to join in affirming a falsehood.

No, never. Torture is unjust, because it demeans and brutalizes its practitioners just as surely (although less painfully) as it does its victims. Torture is ineffective in obtaining reliable information, but it is effective in coercing a victim or subject to join in affirming a falsehood.