Readers’ Responses to Our Question (168)

A true Christian can never justify torture.

God’s view is seen at Psalms 11:5:
“Jehovah himself examines the righteous one as well as the wicked one,
And anyone loving violence His soul certainly hates.

Jesus said at John 13: 34 & 35 :” I am giving YOU a new commandment, that YOU love one another; just as I have loved YOU, that YOU also love one another. By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves.”

In answer to the question: “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

Jesus answered at Matthew 22:36-40: “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ This is the greatest and first commandment. The second, like it, is this, ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets.”

Jesus taught at Luke 6:35-36: “To the contrary, continue to love YOUR enemies and to do good and to lend [without interest], not hoping for anything back; and YOUR reward will be great, and YOU will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind toward the unthankful and wicked. Continue becoming merciful, just as YOUR Father is merciful.”

Paul wrote at Galatians 6:10: “Really, then, as long as we have time favorable for it, let us work what is good toward all, but especially toward those related to [us] in the faith.”

And also at 1 Thessalonians 4:9: “However, with reference to brotherly love, YOU do not need us to be writing YOU, for YOU yourselves are taught by God to love one another;”

And finally at Romans 12:17-21: “Return evil for evil to no one. Provide fine things in the sight of all men. If possible, as far as it depends upon YOU, be peaceable with all men. Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: “Vengeance is mine; I will repay, says Jehovah.” But, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals upon his head.” Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good.”

A christian and an atheist were watching the news when they saw a man at the top of a building threatening to jump off. The atheist said, 'I bet you $50 he's going to jump off, what do you say ?' The christian agreed. They continued watching until the man jumped off the building. The christian hands over the $50 and says, 'Good Work.' The atheist takes the money but in a few minutes guiltily admits, 'I'm sorry, here's your $50 back, I saw the earlier showing of the news and I knew the man was going to jump off.' 'Don't worry,' said the christian 'I saw it too. I just didn't think he'd do it again.'

In your society discussion of torture is in progress, because YOUR PRESENT SYSTEM AND IDEAS APPROVES IT. (indiscriminate torture!!)

SHAMELESS AND BARBARIC!!!

History tells that the oppressers always called the oppressed BARBARIC to justify there own actions.

Infact they blame others for what they are doing them selves in reality!!!!!!!

In your society discussion of torture is in progress, because YOUR PRESENT SYSTEM AND IDEAS APPROVES IT. (indiscriminate torture!!)

SHAMELESS AND BARBARIC!!!

History tells that the oppressers always called the oppressed BARBARIC to justify there own actions.

Infact they blame others for what they are doing them selves in reality!!!!!!!

In your society discussion of torture is in progress, because YOUR PRESENT SYSTEM AND IDEAS APPROVES IT. (indiscriminate torture!!)

SHAMELESS AND BARBARIC!!!

History tells that the oppressers always called the oppressed BARBARIC to justify there own actions.

Infact they blame others what they are doing them selves in reality!!!!!!!

In your society discussion of torture is in progress, because YOUR PRESENT SYSTEM AND IDEAS APPROVES IT. (indiscriminate torture!!)

SHAMELESS AND BARBARIC!!!

History tells that the oppressers always called the oppressed BARBARIC to justify there own actions.

Infact they blame others what they are doing them selves in reality!!!!!!!

In education one go through all the various stages,of learning, if be fortunate, to get the best that be available, from infant to adult. Such learning, taking many years... .. . Spiritual development being as similar, one learns at all the various stages, only in the spiritual, it, s t r e t c h i n g not over years, but MANY MANY MANY lifetimes... .. . Hence, one look in the long term. That a lifetime, be a worthy GIFT, where enabled, then one proceeding further in "spiritual development" on best behaviour, then one building a very healthy spiritual account... .. .

Torture is never justified.

Talk about lobbing softball questions. Let's see some questions that will call into question the existence of god, the soul, or the supernatural.

Is obsession with 'terror' and scaring people a mental deformity or just a form of cruelty to others?

It shouldn't be overlooked that some of the species enjoy torture of others of the species as well as torture of animals. I would suspect that some in positions of power do in fact enjoy cruelty and probably torture of others. I would also suspect that many of those offering support for torture secretly enjoy the thought of it.

Having people killed over an extended period of time without a declared war or a war resolution and not calling it a criminal act is a major part of the problem. Putting one or two
person's 'judgment' or thoughts of what works over a major international agreement such as the Geneva Conventions is an act of total absurdity that defies any kind of rational understanding.

What is the evidence that a person committed to a major 'terror' act would betray the act and others involved as a result of being tortured? Did Timothy McVay betray the others? Has anyone ever wondered why he was executed in a relatively short time without trying more to find out about others involved???

Why are the 'confessions' as a result of torture considered 'the gospel truth' rather than a coerced statement?

The argument for torture and terror seems to relied on a concept that there is nothing worse than death when it may be only a disguise for cruelty to others.

We seem to have forgotten about 'man's inhumanity to man"!

. ... .... ALL ARE BROUGHT TO ACCOUNT .... ... .

We go to war and we blow off the heads/maim slaughter (all leftist pacifists need not reply as yr position that we should never go to war is a total fallacy) kill someones, brother/father/son by the 100's of thousands and we say "ok" but when it comes to trying to save numerous lives vs the torture of one , we go bazonkers, as if we can take back with the left hand all the death and destruction we deal with the right hand. If there is a good reason for war, then there must be a good reason for torture, but to cry that we are losing our humanity is like the fat guy who orders orders
a pizza pie with a diet coke.

Anonymous: don't have a copy, but I doubt the UCMJ says it's OK to torture if the subjects are "low lifes" whose leaders didn't sign the Geneva Convention. and so what if it does? and if you believe our generals have been torturing for decades and have managed to keep the secret for the reasons you cite, you will believe anything. and why exactly should I try sleep deprivation? even if I were to conclude that it's enough to get me to reveal anything to anyone that asks, how does that make bamboo splinters or waterboarding OK? just the opposite. if sleep deprivation will suffice, then anything worse is just the wanton infliction of gratuitous pain or terror. surely that's not OK?

Joet,

The Geneva Convention, I believe, does cover terrorists as these low lifes have relinguished any rights to fair treatment. See http://www.crimesofwar.org/expert/genevaConventions/gc-schmitt.html

Therefore the US Military Code of Justice is not in effect.

And the success of interrogations will never be reported in a terrorist filled world since those that "ratted" would fast lose their heads once released.

And still not up to some self-imposed sleep and food deprivation? By doing this exercise, you could at least address the issues from experience.

Concerned,

You've liberated yourself from Christianity but your ethics are still lagging behind. Time to step it up.

Concerned: how about a straight answer? are you suggesting that our generals should be systematically instructed to torture, by any means necessary, anyone they feel may have useful information that could advance the troops' mission or not? are you suggesting that our generals, in every war from WWI to present have been misguided in their rejection of such a notion, or not? or are you suggesting that they have actually been engaged in torture whenever they deemed it useful, but that it's a well kept secret? which is it? and just dispense with the vague war is hell nonsense.

Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,

Hmmm, after two days of no sleep and no food, you also would "sell your mother" and relinguish all those Islamic secrets that your "pwtfft" gave you. During your true fast and abstinence, you should also walk through the wilds of Alabama in the pouring rain with only a compass to guide you. This is typical escape and evasion training for our troops that protect your belief in "pwtfft"s.

concerned the liberated- you seem to have stumbled upon something there-

there doesnt seem to be alot of practical application in wartime to sell one's mother

the ability to coerce someone to sell their mother serves no real purpose

as a euphemism for do anything say anything-
selling your mother is as good an analogy as any as to the practical uselessness of information under duress

The cornerstone just law, not political religious cunning as deceit, where people fleeced, as lambs, to slaughter. It for govt to serve the people, not people, serving govt... .. .

It was posted "War is Hell"
Seems to me alot of people desire Hell.

Satan,but refereeing to the material realm, where being the gateway to "spiritual development" via human form, "spiritual enlightenment" from brain as heart, growth in understanding as experience, such reveiling,the knowledge of creation, hence, respecting satan, being but honourable unto God.

Below Anonymous is me.

The Message for War Waging Rulers:

Moreover, in mainstream Christianity he (Satan/Lucifer) is called "the ruler of the demons" (Matt. 12:24), "the ruler of the world" and even "the god of this world." (2Cor. 4:4). The Book of Revelation describes how Satan will be cast out of Heaven, down to the earth, having "great anger" and waging war against "those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony ". Ultimately, Satan is thrown into the "lake of fire" (Revelation 20:10), not as ruler, but as one among many, being tormented day and night for all eternity.

Who Would Jesus Torture?

(Charles Colson?)

what is torture, but a means to a biased end.

what is torture, but a means to a biased end.

ADAM: She's blonde, she's beautiful, but why so dumb ? GOD: Blonde as beautiful, that you loving her, dumb, that she loving you ... .. .

Anon,

Over 300 comments and finally someone gets it right, "simply get them drunk". Good thinking!!!! Sure beats waterboarding and food and sleep deprivation.

Lucifer said, "What is the difference between a christian and the Titanic ? We know how many went down on the Titanic."

Some from the titanic were saved, I don't any of the christians.

Look , "And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe." Do you see "the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word" "and believe"
Peter said "Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus." Do you see "by the mouth of David" "the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word" "and believe" Do you see "Judas, was guide to them that took Jesus"

Joet,

In an efficient war using the principles of War is Hell and the "Firstist with the Mostest" there would be no torture i.e. all enemy combatants would be sent to "Allah Land" during the single confrontation.

How goes your self-inflicted torture i.e. two days without sleep or food???

What is the difference between a christian and the Titanic ? We know how many went down on the Titanic.

What does torture have to do with faith??

Is this OnFaith or OnCrack?

Concerned: so he who tortures the mostest fastest wins? I'm sure glad none of the generals you served under believed that (I assume you didn't serve under Sherman).

I learned a lot in my five years in the US military to include two important principles i.e. "War is Hell" (General Sherman's burning/terrorizing/torture of Georgia) and "The Firstist with the Mostest" wins the battle/war".

Hell being partly terror and torture, so yes indeed terror/torture come in degrees/scale.

And denying any individual food and sleep for two days will cause anyone to sell their mothers. i.e. waterboarding not needed. For you non-military types, try it out yourselves. Water is allowed.

I observe many wise comments in this blog.

The words of Job:
Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same. By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed. The roaring of the lion, and the voice of the fierce lion, and the teeth of the young lions, are broken. The old lion perisheth for lack of prey, and the stout lion's whelps are scattered abroad.
Now a thing was secretly brought to me, and mine ear received a little thereof.

Look “they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same” “By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed” All word of GOD is breathed in, according to the faith of sinner creatures, “by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed”. Who is it that destroys you, God. Look “The roaring of the lion, and the voice of the fierce lion” Who came to destroy the gentiles. Who is sent in his image to speak the gospel to the world. Do you see “Now a thing was secretly brought to me”, have not I revealed a secret.

The priests said not, Where is the Lord? and they that handle the law knew me not: the pastors also transgressed against me, and the prophets prophesied by Baal, and walked after things that do not profit. Wherefore I will yet plead with you, saith the Lord, and with your children's children will I plead.

This is who stands behind the pulpit of the churches of the gentiles “pastors also transgressed against me, and the prophets prophesied by Baal” Look “And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.” Is not this an answer “Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?” Christians are God’s chosen, “the world is the enemy of God.” “preach the gospel to every creature.” “Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.” The missionary work of the gentiles is clear “Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.” Look “ye therefore wise as serpents” Here is the kingdom for the Christians “Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?” Look “Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.” The words are clear “pray for them which despitefully use you.” “ye therefore wise as serpents” “And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.” “how can ye escape the damnation of hell?”

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.

Do you see who is with the sons of God, “when the sons of God came, Satan came also among them” It is Satan who dwells with the sons of God. The LORD dwells with Israel, is it not your desire to have the LORD with you.

Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the Lord.

Look, “Again there was a day when the sons of God” “Satan came also among them” It clearly represents Satan is always with the sons of God before the Lord.

While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

Look, “The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants”, I ask you wise creatures of the Christian and catholic faiths who are the sheep. Who is with you at the judgment seat. Look “God layeth up his iniquity for his children: he rewardeth him, and he shall know it. His eyes shall see his destruction” “and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.”

Words from the Psalm:
Look "For my love they are my adversaries: but I give myself unto prayer. And they have rewarded me evil for good, and hatred for my love. Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand. When he shall be judged, let him be condemned: and let his prayer become sin."

Do you see "Set thou a wicked man over him" You have the mind of christ (jesus) "let Satan stand at his right hand" "when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the Lord" Do you see "When he shall be judged, let him be condemned" Here is the kingdom for the Christians “Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?” “The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants”

You will have satan with you forever.

What's the difference between an atheist and a 747 ? Not everyone has been in a 747. .

MHR: what do you have to say to perfectly good moderates who have no trouble distinguishing between shooting the enemy in battle and torturing him once captured?

MHR said: "I frankly don't understand why leftists don't attack the killing of terrorists and their encarceration as fiercely as they do the employment of waterboarding."

The reason you can't understand it is because you think like a terrorist yourself. In your mind, anything (torture, the murder of civilians, mutilation of the innocent) is justified as long as "our side" was provoked before we did it.

How is your reasoning any different than that of bin Laden? He believed that 9/11 was justified because the Islamofascists had been provoked by the past "misdeeds" of America.

The fact is that some things are wrong, no matter the provocation. If the U.S. can't even stand against torture, then we don't deserve our soldiers' sacrifices.

mhr @November 12, 2007 12:55 PM: I do not know whether I am a 'leftist' or subject to 'utopian thinking'. However, I DO KNOW that I am responsible for what the US does and I do not want to be responsible for what terrorists do. Which is one reason I object when the US behaves the way the terrorists do.

I suspect that you consider yourself a 'pragmatic' individual. Why don't you then provide me (and the rest of us) with a pragmatic (that is concrete) proof that torture is effective. By that I do not mean a hypothetical situation, or the 'we do not know what they know' argument; but instead proof that torture was effective when no other alternative was effective.

Please do remember that Bush has used the 'pragmatic' justification twice. The first time he even gave examples. As is typical, his examples were false. The second time he did not give examples (at least he can learn). But if you are to maintain a 'pragmatic' stance, you must demonstrate that it is based on fact, and not hypothesis.

Given the penchant of leftists for utopian thinking and the way they have characterized the efforts the US had made to combat islamic terror as US imperialism at its worse, best described as a combination of Abu Ghraib, torture, Guantanamo, and a capitalistic scramble for oil, I frankly don't understand why leftists don't attack the killing of terrorists and their encarceration as fiercely as they do the employment of waterboarding.

Given the penchant of leftists for utopian thinking and the way they have characterized the efforts the US had made to combat islamic terror as US imperialism at its worse, best described as a combination of Abu Ghraib, torture, Guantanamo, and a capitalistic scramble for oil, I frankly don't understand why leftists don't attack the killing of terrorists and their encarceration as fiercely as they do the employment of waterboarding.

Chuck Swanson @ November 11, 2007 6:51 PM: "But . . . . two exceptions. Waterboard Bush and Darth Vader ..." I agree about convicting them, butnot waterboarding. However, I would be agreeable if they had to listen to the commentaries, and occasional screams, of those they caused to be tortured.

What about people whom sing..... yet cant sing, play an musical instrument..... yet cant play. It fortunate "spiritual development" all the senses taken to their peak, put to their true purpose, every cloud, brings, a silver linning... .. .

its a cut and paste folks, but applicable

Waterboarding
Drowning for justice

Why on earth is there any doubt that waterboarding - basically a form of drowning - is a form of torture? What will it take to convince us all, Senators and Attorneys General included, to reject it?

By Hesham Hassaballa, November 9, 2007


It's a slam dunk

Last week, in testimony before the Senate Judiciary Committee, Federal judge Michael Mukasey, the latest nominee for Attorney General, refused to define the technique known as "waterboarding" as torture. Though this would appear unbecoming of anyone meant to uphold justice, it still seems likely that he will be confirmed by the Senate. The Judiciary Committee is scheduled to vote on Mukasey on November 6.

So why would anyone, let alone Judge Mukasey, have any doubt as to whether waterboarding is torture? Presidential candidate Rudy Giuliani isn't sure and says "it depends on how it's done" (soothing music might help, perhaps). Joe Scarborough, the MSNBC television commentator, also notes the "debate" and asks "Is waterboarding torture?"

The experts have no doubt. "Waterboarding," says Malcom Nance, former chief of training at the U.S. Navy Survival, Evasion, Resistance, and Escape (SERE) School, "is a torture technique. Period." Writing on his blog, Nance says: "Having been subjected to this technique, I can say: It is risky but not entirely dangerous when applied in training for a very short period. However, when performed on an unsuspecting prisoner, waterboarding is a torture technique - without a doubt. There is no way to sugarcoat it."

The widespread assertion that waterboarding is "simulated drowning," according to Nance, is a mischaracterization. "It does not simulate drowning, as the lungs are actually filling with water. There is no way to simulate that. The victim is drowning. Unless you have been strapped down to the board, have endured the agonizing feeling of the water overpowering your gag reflex, and then feel your throat open and allow pint after pint of water to involuntarily fill your lungs, you will not know the meaning of the word."

Waterboarding is a torture technique in which the one being questioned is strapped down, his head below his chest, and has a cloth either draped over his face or stuffed in his mouth. Water is then poured over the cloth. It was first used during the Spanish Inquisition (probably against Muslims, wouldn't you know), and it has been a favorite of many tyrannical and despotic regimes throughout history. To witness what waterboarding actually looks like, click here.

Mr. Nance dismisses the claims of the "torture apologists," as he calls them, that techniques such as waterboarding have been effective in getting detainees to talk: "Of course, when you waterboard you get all the magic you want - because remember, the subject will talk. They all talk! Anyone strapped down will say anything, absolutely anything to get the torture to stop. Torture. Does. Not. Work." This has been repeated by virtually every expert in interrogation: torture is not an effective means of extracting information.

"Yes," say the torture apologists, "but we got information from Khalid Sheikh Mohammed by waterboarding. It was valuable information, too." Really? In October 2006, the Washington Post reported that, "Numerous sources have confirmed that the CIA used waterboarding in its interrogation of alleged 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and other 'high-value' prisoners." According to ABCNEWS investigative reporter Brian Ross, waterboarding KSM helped thwart a plot to attack a building in Los Angeles.

Yet, that is not factually correct. According to President Bush himself, that plot was thwarted in early 2002 "when a Southeast Asian nation arrested a key al Qaeda operative. Subsequent debriefings and other intelligence operations made clear the intended target, and how al Qaeda hoped to execute it. This critical intelligence helped other allies capture the ringleaders and other known operatives who had been recruited for this plot." Yet, KSM was captured in Pakistan after the plot had been thwarted in March 2003. So, if the Library Tower plot was revealed by waterboarding KSM, it was not new information. Thus, as Malcom Nance says, "Torture. Does. Not. Work."

Therefore, why torture a terrorism suspect? If we were to capture Ayman Al Zawahiri (he has lost the privilege of being addressed as "Dr."), and we subjected him to waterboarding and other such "harsh interrogation techniques," what would be the purpose, knowing that torture simply does not work? I echo Mr. Nance's statement that: "I would personally cut Bin Laden's heart out with a plastic MRE spoon if we per chance met on the battlefield. Yet, once captive I believe the better angels of our nature and our nation's core values would eventually convince any terrorist that they indeed have erred in their murderous ways."

This sentiment echoes perfectly this Qur'anic principle:
"Repel thou [evil] with something that is better and lo! he between whom and thyself was enmity [may then become] as though he had [always] been close [unto thee], a true friend. " (41:34)
It follows the commandment of Jesus Christ on the Mount:
"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and send rain on the just and on the unjust ." (Matthew 5:43-45)
Some may scoff at this and accuse us of being "soft" if we follow this course. And true, it may not give us that carnal satisfaction of seeing a mortal enemy suffer in sweet revenge. Yet, Christ said: " Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven in perfect." (Matthew 5:48) Shouldn't we, as Americans, be, therefore, sons of our Father in heaven? Shouldn't we, as Americans, be, therefore, perfect?

Hesham A. Hassaballa is a Chicago physician and writer. He is the co-author of "The Beliefnet Guide to Islam," published by Doubleday in 2006. His blog is at drhassaballa.com.

We Americans love to argue. We love our opinions. We love discussing issues like waterboarding in the abstract. That is why it is so easy to get us to go along with such things as stupid wars and rationalizing torture.

But, to really put things in perspective, imagine that it was your son--or some other loved one in your family--who was being waterboarded. How would you feel about it?

When it is no longer just an abstract proposition, we all have a tendency to look at such questions a bit differently. As long as Americans thought we were going to have a nice, simple little war in Iraq with few casualties, we were all for it, supported it into the 70 percent range. Now, that's all changed. Because, it is no longer just an abstract theory. Nearly 4000 dead young Americans is a sobering reality.

I suspect if William Kristol's son or other loved one were somehow mistakenly thought to be a terrorist and have information about some pending attack and the CIA wanted to use waterboarding to extract information, he would not be as inclined to be so academic and so supremely indifferent in his reactions on this question.

We Americans love to argue. We love our opinions. We love discussing issues like waterboarding in the abstract. That is why it is so easy to get us to go along with such things as stupid wars and rationalizing torture.

But, to really put things in perspective, imagine that it was your son--or some other loved one in your family--who was being waterboarded. How would you feel about it?

When it is no longer just an abstract proposition, we all have a tendency to look at such questions a bit differently. As long as Americans thought we were going to have a nice, simple little war in Iraq with few casualties, we were all for it, supported it into the 70 percent range. Now, that's all changed. Because, it is no longer just an abstract theory. Nearly 4000 dead young Americans is a sobering reality.

I suspect if William Kristol's son or other loved one were somehow mistakenly thought to be a terrorist and have information about some pending attack and the CIA wanted to use waterboarding to extract information, he would not be as inclined to be so academic and so supremely indifferent in his reactions on this question.

Nope. Torture is never justified. Those who say it can be are no better than the terrorists.

Ms. Quinn is the LEAST qualified person to run a column like this. She's socialite that knows nothing about true suffering, and has her position on this paper due to Ben Bradlee and him alone. She's a Republican shill that no one should listen to. She wouldn't know Jesus Christ if she pushed him out of the way.

War is Hell!!! For all those global "sideliners" and "goody goodshoes", welcome to Hell and all its terror and torture consisting of waterboardings, beheadings and bombs!!!

" 'Torture is valid IF you also wish to be tortured. The basic rule of civilization is this "Treat people the way you wish to be treated.'

That's pretty silly. So if I someone hates themselves and wants to hurt themselves, then they should treat others in the same way?

Ask the professionals who are involved in serious interrogation. Torture is not effective. That is the overwhelming consensus among the military and others.

Whether it's moral or not then is irrelevent; the question of its morality is only if it were effective, in which case its morality for Christians is incredibly dubious. Did Christ promote torture somewhere? I missed that Beatitude along the way to adulthood.....

Ask the professionals who are involved in serious interrogation. Torture is not effective. That is the overwhelming consensus among the military and others.

Whether it's moral or not then is irrelevent; the question of its morality is only if it were effective, in which case its morality for Christians is incredibly dubious. Did Christ promote torture somewhere? I missed that Beatitude along the way to adulthood.....

It's so simple: Never can torture be acceptable.

It's so simple: Never can torture be acceptable.

It's so simple: Never can torture be acceptable.

NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO!

Can you hear me?

NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO!

But . . . . two exceptions. Waterboard Bush and Darth Vader and then convict both of them of high crimes and misdemeanors based on their answers to questions while being waterboarded.

Sweet, really sweet.

Torture, like murder, is NEVER justified and ALWAYS immoral. The "ticking time-bomb" scenario often cited to justify torture is hypothetical and false.

Catholicism has become rather charming, since it stopped burning people at the stake. Perhaps the oxymoronic "religious right" could make that leap as well and decide that torture is immoral.

I have supported the idea:

TORTURE IS MORALLY INDEFENSIBLE IN EVERY CASE, IRRESPECTIVE OF THE PERPETRATOR OR THE OBJECT OF THE TORTURE.

But, you gentle souls have led me to reconsider my position.

Perhaps the gauge of immorality can be lowered just enough to torture bush and cheney, (add colson and cal - for good measure), BUT not to extract information. The torture would be JUST FOR FUN!!! (I am already smiling with anticipation).

The correct answer is:
TORTURE IS MORALLY INDEFENSIBLE IN EVERY CASE, IRRESPECTIVE OF THE PERPETRATOR OR THE OBJECT OF THE TORTURE.

I see good old Chuck Colson, for all his 'ministeries' work, is still the same vile species of human he's been all of his life. Why am I not surprised?!

in search of national security.
national security requires national justice and national justice requires national morality and national morality starts at national heart.

1-where people take their heart for filling?
2-do they have cure centers for people hearts?
3-what is the difference between heart cureing and ham cureing?
4-what is the difference between prisoner of zanda and prisoner of lost and misguided society?
5-is justice and morality exportable and importable?where people can buy justice and morality?
6-what is the justice of this universe?where?since when?who handel it?what and where is the reference?.

justice never died for the sin of mankind .pay allegiance to justice you be safe.

Humanity, blessed with human form, an brain as heart, opening unto spiritual development, such, with the dawning day, growth in knowledge, where alights, greater depth, in understanding, as of experience, in the love which bonds, being the greater, than all which may divide... .. .

Someone - I think it was Paganplace - brought up the fascination hardcore religious zealots (and Americans in general) seem to have for the idea of pain, suffering and graphic descriptions of punishment. Since time immemorial humans have sought to dehumanize those who we fear might oppose us. That and our erotic attraction for violence are much in evidence here.

Frankly, I have a hard time taking anyone who claims there is any religious or humanistic justification for torture seriously.

A mexican, an Irishman, an African, a kilted scotsman, a priest, two lesbians, a rabbi and a nun walk into a bar. The barman looks up and says, "What the hell is this ? Some kind of joke ?"

What about all them animals that be bred, for the table. Used in genetic experimenting, as in reactions to chemical structuring... .. .

War is Hell!!! For all those global "sideliners" and "goody goodshoes", welcome to Hell and all its terror and torture consisting of waterboardings, beheadings and bombs!!!

Victoria said “For the Lord (NOT HAROLD)” “Solomon (NOT HAROLD)” “HAROLD- you're neither the Lord, nor Solomon.”

Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for My name is in him. But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.

Do you see “I send an Angel before thee” “obey his voice” “My name is in him”

Then said David to the Philistine, Thou comest to me with a sword, and with a spear, and with a shield: but I come to thee in the name of the Lord of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel, whom thou hast defied.

Do you see “I come to thee in the name of the Lord” What was said to Moses “I send an Angel before thee” “obey his voice” “My name is in him” David said “The Lord executeth righteousness and judgment for all that are oppressed. He made known his ways unto Moses, his acts unto the children of Israel.” Do you see “He made known his ways unto Moses” The LORD gave Solomon wisdom and understanding for judgment.

On that day the Lord magnified Joshua in the sight of all Israel; and they feared him, as they feared Moses, all the days of his life.

Do you see “as they feared Moses” Moses came in the name of the LORD. I ask you Victoria, who knows the name of the LORD. Who speaks the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of the LORD. “He made known his ways unto Moses” The LORD gave Solomon wisdom and understanding for judgment. You said “HAROLD- you're neither the Lord, nor Solomon.” I clearly have proven ““And Moses said, Hereby ye shall know that the Lord hath sent me to do all these works; for I have not done them of mine own mind.”
Moses said “And Moses said, Hereby ye shall know that the Lord hath sent me to do all these works; for I have not done them of mine own mind. If these men die the common death of all men, or if they be visited after the visitation of all men; then the Lord hath not sent me.” Do you see “for I have not done them of mine own mind”

And Moses came and told the people all the words of the Lord, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the Lord hath said will we do. And Moses wrote all the words of the Lord, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel.

Do you see “told the people all the words of the Lord, and all the judgments” What was the response of the children of the LORD “All the words which the Lord hath said will we do.”

“The Lord executeth righteousness and judgment for all that are oppressed." Remember your history towards Israel.

Victoria said "you dont have the discernment or ability to judge(like G-d)" Here is G-d's judgment.

Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same. By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed. The roaring of the lion, and the voice of the fierce lion, and the teeth of the young lions, are broken. The old lion perisheth for lack of prey, and the stout lion's whelps are scattered abroad.
Now a thing was secretly brought to me, and mine ear received a little thereof.

While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

Look, "By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed" “The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants”, I ask you wise creatures of the Christian and catholic faiths who are the sheep. Who is with you at the judgment seat. Look “God layeth up his iniquity for his children: he rewardeth him, and he shall know it. His eyes shall see his destruction” “and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.”

Anonymous said "Trust in the Lord with All Thine Heart, and Lean Not unto THINE OWN Understanding."

The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

Now these be the last words of David. David the son of Jesse said, and the man who was raised up on high, the anointed of the God of Jacob, and the sweet psalmist of Israel, said, The Spirit of the Lord spake by me, and his word was in my tongue."

The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom, and his tongue talketh of judgment.

For the froward is abomination to the Lord: but his secret is with the righteous.

The Words are clear “The secret things belong unto the Lord” “but those things which are revealed belong unto us” “, that we may do all the words of this law” Solomon said “but his secret is with the righteous” David said “The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom” That is the Statutes of the LORD “The Spirit of the Lord spake by me, and his word was in my tongue” “his tongue talketh of judgment” The Spirit speaks of Judgment.

And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

The Words of the LORD are clear “shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me” Those of the christian and catholic faith love Jesus, he spoke not of the words of the LORD. Do you see “keep my commandments” thou shall have no other gods before me. Them of your faith are sons of God, they are the children of God. You are all gods. You are all lords, the son of man is lord of the Sabbath. The LORD said to Moses “And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I the Lord your God am holy. Ye shall fear every man his mother, and his father, and keep my sabbaths: I am the Lord your God.” The LORD is HOLY, Judah. Do you see “Ye shall fear every man his mother, and his father” The LORD is Judah, the Mother of Israel, Judah is the Father of Israel. Do you see “Specially the day that thou stoodest before the Lord thy God in Horeb, when the Lord said unto me, Gather me the people together, and I will make them hear my words, that they may learn to fear me all the days that they shall live upon the earth, and that they may teach their children.” What does it say “they may learn to fear me all the days that they shall live upon the earth” “Ye shall fear every man his mother” “O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!” Do you see “keep all my commandments always” sinner creatures aare the children of God. “Thou shalt fear the Lord thy God, and serve him, and shalt swear by his name.” “And now, Israel, what doth the Lord thy God require of thee, but to fear the Lord thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the Lord thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,” Moses said “This day will I begin to put the dread of thee and the fear of thee upon the nations that are under the whole heaven, who shall hear report of thee, and shall tremble, and be in anguish because of thee.” Look “Thou shalt fear the Lord thy God; him shalt thou serve, and to him shalt thou cleave, and swear by his name.”

And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:
Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son. For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the Lord be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly. But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire. For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

What does the Law say “And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them” “nor shew mercy unto them” You said "nor apparently the compssion of either" It is the Judgment of the LORD you question. I fulfill the Words of Moses “This day will I begin to put the dread of thee and the fear of thee upon the nations that are under the whole heaven” Everything about the faith of the sinner creatures I fulfill “ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire”

If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me. I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy. Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people. And Moses came and spake all the words of this song in the ears of the people, he, and Hoshea the son of Nun.

Moses said “mine hand take hold on judgment” “I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy” I think you forget the history of the Christian and catholic churches towards the Children of the LORD, Israel. “he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries” “and will be merciful unto” “his people”

And the Lord said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name. And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory. And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

The words are clear “I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee” “and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy” The name of the LORD is JUDAH.

You said "Trust in the Lord with All Thine Heart, and Lean Not unto THINE OWN Understanding." It is not my own understanding, it is the Judgment of the LORD. “The Spirit of the Lord spake by me, and his word was in my tongue. The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom, and his tongue talketh of judgment.” You said "you will be judged with the mercy with which you judge others" You judge the Words of the LORD. I speak with the Spirit of the LORD.
"the way of the ungodly shall perish."

that was victoria

heed ypour owen warnings harold-

For the Lord (NOT HAROLD)knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish."
soyou dont have to concern yourself- g-d has it under control

"Good and upright is the Lord:(again NOT HAROLD) therefore will he teach sinners in the way. The meek will he guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach his way

whom the Lord (NOT HAROLD)loveth he correcteth

"The Lord(NOT HAROLD) by wisdom hath founded the earth, by understanding hath he established the heavens"

Solomon (NOT HAROLD)said "My son, despise not t