Readers’ Responses to Our Question (151)

Is sex outside of marriage a sin?
An authoritative answer to this question can come only from our Creator—Jehovah God. And in his Word he tells us to “flee from fornication.” (1 Corinthians 6:18) Just what does that mean? The Greek word translated “fornication” is not restricted to sexual intercourse but includes a variety of lewd acts. So if two unmarried people engage in oral sex or in fondling each others’ reproductive organs, they are guilty of fornication.
The Bible exhorts Christians to flee not only from fornication itself but also from all forms of unclean conduct that could lead to it.(Colossians 3:5)

Sex outside of marriage is nothing more than the “temporary enjoyment of sin.” (Hebrews 11:25) It can cause lasting physical, emotional, and spiritual harm.

King David’s sexual sin endangered his friendship with God and nearly led to his spiritual ruin. (Psalm 51) And while David recovered spiritually, he suffered the consequences of his sin for the rest of his life.

Jehovah designed sexual relations to be pleasurable. This was in harmony with his original purpose for humans to populate the earth. (Genesis 1:28) Nevertheless, God never intended for us to misuse our procreative powers. “Each one of you should know how to get possession of his own vessel in sanctification and honor,” says the Bible. (1 Thessalonians 4:4) To act upon every sexual desire would be, in a sense, as foolish as hitting someone each time you felt anger.

Sexual relations are a gift from God, a gift that is to be enjoyed at the appropriate time—when one is married. When a person engages in sex outside of marriage, they are abusing the gift that God has provided.

True Christians will “abstain from fornication” in all its various forms. (1 Thessalonians 4:3)

THE QUESTION
From Clinton to Craig, from Swaggart to Paulk, America seems obsessed with sex scandals. Is sex outside of marriage a sin? Is it a public matter? Is it forgivable?
Posted by Sally Quinn and Jon Meacham on November 28, 2007 6:31 AM

ANS.
What is the primary natural purpose of sex? Is its primary purpose “sex for pleasure alone?” We’ve seen what that has wrought from the Sexual Revolution, namely, adultery, fornication, live-ins, and homosexuality and the Culture of Death, death of the body and death of the soul.

Consequently, what ensues are high divorce rates,, single parent families, some 48 million unborn legally murdered by abortion, AIDS, STDs, and a diminishing of one’s selfworth. Today suicide is becoming the leading cause of death. That should make it obvious that sex is only legitimate in the context of marriage.

Moreover, sex for pleasure only is for self-gratification, demeans the individuals involved, and is an act of selfishness of those who engage in it. Shack ups personify a lack of true love and commitment to those engaged illicit sex. The woman is more vulnerable because she houses the temple of human life and generally endures the most of the risk of pregnancy.

If illicit sex results in a pregnancy, the child is either legally murdered by abortion or brought into the world without a father. A recent poll showed that some seventy percent of Black pregnancies occur outside of marriage and some 55 percent end in abortion. That is a problem for the prodigy of the State. The State has an obligation to insure the stability of the family to ensure the social order and its own viability as well as the families.

Are they violations of the moral law and the co-inhabitants forgivable? God can forgive if one can seriously seek his forgiveness. Man can forgive, but the Natural Moral Law does not forgive; hence, these social iniquities naturally evolve and disrupt society and they burden the State, impugn the social order, and threaten the posterity of the State.

Sex outside of marriage is a frustration of the natural and sacred ends of the sexual union that is only licit in marriage.

Though God created man and woman, he also created the institution of Marriage. "The vocation to marriage is written in the very nature of man and woman as they came from the hand of the Creator. The well-being of the individual person and of both human and Christian society is closely bound up with the healthy state of conjugal and family life.

The marriage covenant, by which a man and a woman form with each other an intimate communion of life and love, has been founded and endowed with its own special laws by the Creator. By its very nature, marriage is ordered to the good of the couple, as well as to the generation and education of children. Christ the Lord raised marriage between the baptized to the dignity of a sacrament.

Marriage is based on the consent of the contracting parties, that is, on their will to give themselves, each to the other, mutually and definitively, in order to live a covenant of faithful and fruitful love. Unity, indissolubility, and openness to fertility are essential to marriage.

Polygamy is incompatible with the unity of marriage; divorce separates what God has joined together; the refusal of fertility turns married life away from its 'supreme gift,' the child and entails moral responsibility.

The woman, 'flesh of his flesh,' his equal, his nearest in all things, is given to him by God as a 'helpmate;' she thus represents God from whom comes our help. Therefore, a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh. The Lord himself shows that this signifies an unbreakable union of their two lives by recalling what the plan of the Creator had been "in the beginning": "So they are no longer two, but one flesh.

Every man experiences evil around him and within himself. This experience makes itself felt in the relationships between man and woman. Their union has always been threatened by discord, a spirit of domination, infidelity, jealousy, and conflicts that can escalate into hatred and separation. This disorder can manifest itself more or less acutely, and can be more or less overcome, according to the circumstances of cultures, eras, and individuals.

From a valid marriage arises a bond between the spouses which by its very nature is perpetual and exclusive; furthermore, in a Christian marriage the spouses are strengthened and, as it were, consecrated for the duties and the dignity of their state by a special sacrament.

The consent by which the spouses mutually give and receive one another is sealed by God himself. From their covenant arises "an institution, confirmed by the divine law, even in the eyes of society." The covenant between the spouses is integrated into God's covenant with man: "Authentic married love is caught up into divine love.

Conjugal love involves a totality, in which all the elements of the person enter - appeal of the body and instinct, power of feeling and affectivity, aspiration of the spirit and of will. It aims at a deeply personal unity, a unity that, beyond union in one flesh, leads to forming one heart and soul; it demands indissolubility and faithfulness in definitive mutual giving; and it is open to fertility.

By its very nature the institution of marriage and married love is ordered to the procreation and education of the offspring and it is in them that it finds its crowning glory."

Questions, Answers on Islam
Why do we need to know about Islam?
• Islam is the second largest religion in the world, after Christianity, and will soon be the second largest in America.
• Muslims are, and will increasingly be, our neighbors, our colleagues and our fellow citizens.
• Our ignorance about Islam distorts our view of one-fifth of the world’s population and causes us to misinterpret important events and phenomena in the US and abroad.
• Peace and safety cannot be achieved in ignorance, but can be promoted through knowledge and the understanding that grows from knowledge.
Why do we need to know about Islam?
• Islam is the second largest religion in the world, after Christianity, and will soon be the second largest in America.
• Muslims are, and will increasingly be, our neighbors, our colleagues and our fellow citizens.
• Our ignorance about Islam distorts our view of one-fifth of the world’s population and causes us to misinterpret important events and phenomena in the US and abroad.
• Peace and safety cannot be achieved in ignorance, but can be promoted through knowledge and the understanding that grows from knowledge.
How did Islam originate?
Like Judaism and Christianity, Islam originated in the Middle East, where monotheism had flourished for many centuries. In the sixth century of our era, Makkah was emerging as a new commercial center with massive new wealth but also with a growing division between rich and poor that challenged the traditional system of Arab tribal values and social security. This was the time and the social environment in which the Prophet Muhammad received his divine revelation and called all to return to the worship of the one God and to a socially just society. Muhammad is thus not considered the founder of a new religion but rather a religious reformer.
The revelations Muhammad received emphasized social justice, corrected distortions of God’s revelations in Judaism and Christianity, and warned that many had strayed. The revelations called on all to return to what the Qur’an refers to as the “straight path” of Islam, the path of God, which was being revealed one final time through Muhammad, the last or “seal” of the prophets.
What do Muslims believe?
Like Jews and Christians, Muslims are monotheists. They believe in one God, the creator, sustainer, ruler and judge of the universe. Muslims believe in prophets—not just the Prophet Muhammad, but also the prophets of the Hebrew Bible, including Abraham and Moses, and of the New Testament, Jesus and John the Baptist. They also believe in angels, heaven, hell and the Day of Judgment. Islam teaches that God’s revelation was received in the Torah, the New Testament and the Qur’an. Thus, Muslims view Jews and Christians as “people of the book,” communities of believers who received revelations through prophets from God in the form of scriptures or revealed books.
As Christians view their revelation as both fulfilling and completing the revelation of the Old Testament, Muslims believe that the Prophet Muhammad received his revelations from God, through the angel Gabriel, to correct human error that had made its way into the scriptures and belief systems of Judaism and Christianity. Therefore, Muslims believe, Islam is not a new religion with a new scripture; rather, Islam is the oldest religion, because it represents the original as well as the final revelation of the God of Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad.
What role does Muhammad play in Muslim life?
During his lifetime and since, Muhammad has been the model for Muslims to follow as they strive to do God’s will. In contrast to what is often a spiritualized Christian view of Jesus, Muslims look upon and love Muhammad as an entirely human figure—but one who had great spiritual as well as political insight and was guided by God. In turn, they look to his example for guidance in all aspects of life: how to treat friends as well as enemies, what to eat and drink, when to wash or pray, how to divide an inheritance, how to make love and war. Muslims’ observations or remembrances of what the Prophet said and did were passed on orally and in writing. These detailed records of Muhammad’s actions, interactions, judgments, decisions and dicta provide guidance for Muslims as to what is required to follow the word of God.
Where do most Muslims live?
Muslims are the majority in 56 countries worldwide, including Indonesia, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Egypt, Iraq and Nigeria. In addition, significant Muslim populations can be found in India, China, the Central Asian republics and Russia, as well as Europe and America, where Islam is the second- and third-largest religion, respectively. The majority of Muslims are not Arab—in fact, only 20 percent of the world’s 1.2 billion Muslims originate from Arab countries. The largest Muslim populations are in Indonesia, Pakistan, Bangladesh and India.
Are all Muslims the same?
There is one divinely revealed and mandated Islam, but there are many human interpretations of Islam. There are Sunni and Shii Muslims, representing 85 percent and 15 percent of the world’s Muslims, respectively. Within these two major branches are diverse schools of theology and law; in addition, Islam has a rich mystical tradition. The basic unity of Islamic belief and practice expresses itself in diverse ways within many different cultures around the world.
Who are the Muslims in America?
Although estimates vary considerably, it is safe to say that there are at least six million Muslims in America today, making Islam the third-largest religion in the country, after Christianity and Judaism. Muslims have been present in America since the time of Columbus. Moriscos (Spanish Muslims forced to hide their faith) migrated to both Spanish and Portuguese settlements in America. In addition, between 14 and 20 percent of the African slaves brought to America from the 16th to the 19th century were Muslim, although they were forced to convert to Christianity. Other Muslims, particularly Indians and Arabs, also immigrated as free persons during this period and were able to maintain their spiritual, cultural and social identity.
The numbers of Muslims in America increased in the late 19th century with the arrival of significant numbers of immigrants from Syria, Lebanon and Jordan. Many settled in the Midwest and Canada, found blue-collar jobs and assimilated into American society. After World War II, significant numbers of immigrants from Palestine and elites from the Middle East and South Asia came to America. In recent decades, many students from the Muslim world have come to study, and many well-educated professionals and intellectuals have come from South and Southeast Asia as well as from the Middle East for political and economic reasons. Many Muslim immigrants have worked hard to sustain their Islamic identity and pass it down to their children, and to establish institutions and community structures—including mosques, Islamic centers, Islamic schools, Islamic publication organizations, interest-free financial institutions and charitable organizations—to support these goals.
About two-thirds of America’s Muslims today are immigrants or descendants of immigrants. The other third is made up of African-American and other converts to Islam. The largest Muslim communities in the United States are in Boston, New York, Detroit, Dearborn, Toledo, Chicago, Houston and Los Angeles/Orange County.
How is Islam similar to Christianity and Judaism?
Judaism, Christianity and Islam, in contrast to Hinduism and Buddhism, are all monotheistic faiths that worship the God of Adam, Abraham and Moses—creator, sustainer and lord of the universe. All stress moral responsibility and accountability, Judgment Day and eternal reward and punishment.
All three faiths emphasize their special covenant with God, Judaism through Moses, Christianity through Jesus and Islam through Muhammad. Christianity accepts God’s covenant with and revelation to the Jews but traditionally has seen itself as superseding Judaism with the coming of Jesus. So, too, Islam and Muslims recognize Judaism and Christianity, their Biblical prophets (among them Adam, Abraham, Moses and Jesus) and their revelations (the Torah and New Testament).
Peace is central to all three faiths, which use similar greetings: shalom aleichem in Judaism, pax vobiscum in Christianity and salaam alaikum in Islam. All three phrases mean “peace be with you.” Yet leaders of each religion—Joshua and King David, Constantine and Richard the Lion-Hearted, Muhammad and Saladin—have engaged in holy wars to spread or defend their beliefs.

What is Islamic law?
The word islam means “surrender [to the will of God],” and the will of God is articulated in Islamic law, whose purpose is to regulate two types of interactions: those between human beings and God—that is, worship—and those among human beings—that is, social transactions. Throughout history, Islamic law has remained central to Muslim identity and practice, for it constitutes the ideal social blueprint for the believer and provides a common code of behavior for all Muslim societies.
In addition to the Qur’an and the Sunnah (example) of Muhammad, Sunni Muslims recognize two other official sources to guide the development of Islamic law: comparative analogical reasoning (qiyas) and consensus (‘ijma). Shii Muslims accept the Qur’an and Sunnah as well as their own collections of the traditions of Ali and other imams.
The Qur’anic texts provide moral directives, laying out what Muslims should aspire to as individuals and achieve as a community. The Sunnah of Muhammad, recorded in hundreds of thousands of individual narratives describing the Prophet’s private and public life and his individual and communal activities, illustrates Islamic faith in practice, and supplements and explains Qur’anic principles. Qiyas is used to determine parallels between similar situations or principles when no clear guidance is found in the Qur’an or Sunnah. The fourth source of law, ‘ijma, or consensus, originated from Muhammad’s reported saying, “My nation will never agree on an error.” This came to mean that consensus among religious scholars could determine the permissibility of an action.
Differences exist between the major Islamic schools of law that reflect the different geographical, social, historical and cultural contexts in which the various jurists were writing. In the modern world, Islamic law faces the challenge of distinguishing the divine prescriptions and eternal principles of the Qur’an from regulations arising from human interpretations in response to specific historical situations.

Is Islam compatible with democracy?
In pre-modern times all the world’s religions supported monarchies and feudal societies and then moved to accommodate modern forms of democracy. Similarly, Muslims today are debating the relationship of Islam to democracy. While most wish for greater political participation, government accountability, freedoms and human rights, there are many different ways to achieve these goals.
There are various reactions to democratization in the Muslim world. Some argue that Islam has its own mechanisms and institutions that do not include democracy. Others believe that democracy can only be fully realized if Muslim societies restrict religion to private life.
Still others contend that Islam is fully capable of accommodating and supporting democracy. They argue that traditional Islamic concepts like consultation (shura) between ruler and ruled, community consensus (‘ijma), public interest (maslaha) and interpretation (ijtihad ) can support parliamentary forms of government.
Many believe that, just as the modern democracies of America and Europe accommodate diverse relationships with religion, Muslims too can develop their own varieties of democratic states that are responsive to indigenous values.

Why don’t Muslims practice separation of church and state?
While Christians believe in rendering unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar and to God what belongs to God, Muslims believe that their primary act of faith is to strive to implement God’s will in both their private and public lives, calling all to worship God,
promoting what is good and prohibiting what is evil. In their view, religion cannot be separated from social and political life because religion informs every action that a person takes.
The Qur’an proclaims that, like Jews and Christians before them, Muslims have been called into a covenant relationship with God, making them a community of believers who must serve as an example to other nations (Chapter 2 Verse 143) by creating a moral social order. The Qur’an states, “You are the best community evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right and forbidding what is wrong” (3:110).
In the ideal Islamic state, the political authority carries out the divine message. Such a state is a nomocracy, a community governed by God’s law, and not a theocracy or autocracy that gives power to the clergy or ruler. It should provide security and order so that Muslims can carry out their religious duties. Legal processes in a truly Islamic state implement rules and judgments from the Shariah , rather than creating new legislation.
Does the Qur’an condone terrorism?
The Qur’an does not advocate or condone terrorism. Islam, like all world religions, neither supports nor requires the illegitimate use of violence or acts of terrorism. Islam does permit, and at times requires, Muslims to defend themselves, their families, their religion and their community from aggression.
The earliest Qur’anic verses dealing with the right to engage in a defensive jihad, or struggle, were revealed shortly after the emigration of Muhammad and his followers to Madinah in flight from their persecution in Makkah. At a time when they were forced to fight for their lives, Muhammad is told: “Leave is given to those who fight because they were wronged—surely God is able to help them—who were expelled from their homes wrongfully for saying, ‘Our Lord is God’” (Chapter 22 Verse 39). The defensive nature of jihad is clearly emphasized in 2:190: “And fight in the way of God with those who fight you, but aggress not: God loves not the aggressors.”
The Qur’an also provided detailed guidelines and regulations regarding the conduct of wars: who is to fight and who is exempted (48:17, 9:91), when hostilities must cease (2:192) and how prisoners should be treated (47:4). Most important, passages such as Chapter 2 Verse 294 emphasized that the response to violence and aggression must be proportionate.
However, Qur’anic verses also underscore that peace, not violence and warfare, is the norm. Permission to fight the enemy is balanced by a strong mandate for making peace: “If your enemy inclines toward peace, then you too should seek peace and put your trust in God” (8:61), and “Had God wished, He would have made them dominate you, and so, if they leave you alone and do not fight you and offer you peace, then God allows you no way against them” (4:90). From the earliest times, it is forbidden in Islam to kill noncombatants.
But what of those verses, sometimes referred to as the “sword verses,” that call for killing unbelievers, such as “When the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them, and confine them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush” (9:5)? This is one of a number of Qur’anic verses that are selectively cited to demonstrate the supposedly violent nature of Islam and its scripture. In fact, however, the passage above is followed and qualified by, “But if they repent and fulfill their devotional obligations and pay the zakat , then let them go their way, for God is forgiving and kind” (9:5). The same is true of another often quoted verse: “Fight those who believe not in God nor in the Last Day, Nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, Nor hold the religion of truth (even if they are) of the People of the Book,” which is often cited without the line that follows, “until they pay the tax with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued” (9:29).
Are Women Second-Class Citizens in Islam?
The status of women in Muslim countries has long been looked to as evidence of “Islam’s” oppression of women in matters ranging from the freedom to dress as they please to legal rights in divorce. The true picture of women in Islam is far more complex.
The Qur’an declares that men and women are equal in the eyes of God; man and woman were created to be equal parts of a pair (Chapter 41 Verse 49). The Qur’an describes the relationship between men and women as one of “love and mercy” (30:21), so that men and women are to serve as “members of one another (3:195), as “protectors, one of another” (9:71). They are to be like each other’s garment (2:187).
Men and women are equally responsible for adhering to the Five Pillars of Islam. Chapter 9 Verses 71–72 states, “The Believers, men and women, are protectors of one another; they enjoin what is just, and forbid what is evil; they observe regular prayers, pay zakat and obey God and His Messenger. On them will God pour His mercy: for God is exalted in Power, Wise. God has promised to Believers, men and women, gardens under which rivers flow, to dwell therein.” This verse draws added significance from the fact that it was the last Qur’an verse to be revealed that addressed relations between men and women. Some scholars argue, on the basis of both content and chronology, that this verse outlines the ideal vision of that relationship in Islam—one of equality and mutuality.
Women have been assigned second-class status in Muslim society based upon a misinterpretation of the Qur’an’s Chapter 4 Verse 34, which says “Men are the guardians of women, (on the basis) that God has granted some of them merits greater than others and (on the basis) that they spend of their property (for the support of women).” However, contemporary scholars have noted that the “guardianship” referred to in this verse is based upon men’s socioeconomic responsibilities for women. It does not say women are incapable of managing their own affairs, controlling themselves or being leaders, nor does it say that all men are superior to, preferred to or better than all women.
Another justification of second-class status for women may have been derived from the Qur’anic stipulation (2:282) that two female witnesses are equal to one male witness. If one female witness errs, the other can remind her of the truth because of there regularly changing physical and psychological conditions. Over time, this was interpreted by male scholars to mean that a woman’s testimony should always be given half the weight of a man’s. Contemporary scholars point out that the verse specifies witnessing in cases of a written transaction, contract or court case. At the time the Qur’an was revealed, most women were not active in business and finance, and a woman’s expertise in these fields was likely to have been less than a man’s.
Another area in which gender discrimination has been apparent historically is in the matter of divorce. The Qur’an, however, guarantees women equality with respect to the right of divorce. The Qur’an also restricts the practice of polygamy. Chapter 4 Verse 3 commands, “Then marry such of the women as appeal to you, two, three or four; but if you fear that you cannot be equitable, then only one.” A corollary verse, 4:129, states, “You will never be able to treat wives equitably, even if you are bent on doing that.” Contemporary interpreters have argued that these two verses together prohibit polygamy and that the true Qur’anic ideal is monogamy.
The 20th century has brought numerous significant reforms for women’s rights in both the public and the private spheres. In the overwhelming majority of Muslim countries, women have the right to public education, including at the college level. In many countries, they also have the right to work outside the home, vote and hold public office. Particularly notable in recent years have been the reforms in marriage and divorce laws.

Why does Islam separate men and women?
Many, though not all, Muslim societies practice some gender segregation, the separation of men and women in public spaces. Thus, in many mosques men and women have separate areas for prayer or are separated by a screen or curtain, and unmarried men do not mix with unmarried women except in very specific contexts, such as a meeting between two potential spouses that occurs in the presence of a chaperone.
The practice of separation has both religious and cultural origins. Muhammad’s wives were told to keep themselves apart from society. In the Qur’an (Chapter 33 Verses 32–33) we see, “O wives of the Prophet! You are not like any of the other women. If you fear God, do not be complaisant in speech so that one in whose heart is a sickness may covet you, but speak honorably. Stay quietly in your homes and do not display your finery as the pagans of old did.” Verse 53 tells Muslim men, “And when you ask (his wives) for anything you want, ask them from before a screen. That makes for greater purity for your hearts and for theirs.”
The practice of segregation is also tied to the concept of women as a source of sexual temptation for men. Social interaction between unrelated men and women is regarded as potentially leading to immoral sexual activity. Because modesty and chastity are prized virtues in Islam, some Muslims therefore believe that unrelated men and women should have no contact with each other.
Opinions today vary about the necessity of separation of the sexes. Many Muslims continue to hold fast to the belief that women are the culture-bearers of Islam, as well as the source of male honor, but they also believe that the requirements of modesty can be met through appropriate dress and the limitation of interaction with unrelated males.
John L. Esposito is accepted by Muslims and Christians alike as one of America’s foremost expositors of Islam. He is University Professor of Religion and International Affairs and of Islamic Studies at Georgetown University, and Director of the Center for Muslim-Christian Understanding. His more than 30 books include What Everyone Needs to Know About Islam, The Islamic Threat: Myth or Reality?, The Oxford History of Islam and, forthcoming in spring 2004, The Islamic World: Past and Present.
This article appeared on pages 21-28 of the September/October 2003 print edition of Saudi Aramco World.
POSTED BY JOHN L. ESPOSITO ON JULY 20, 2007 10:59 AM

however, that is not to say that muslims have not been very vocal and have welcomed debate with christians!

http://www.ahmed-deedat.co.za/frameset.asp

You are well come Victoria!

Thomas Baum:

Christians always have there own decieving way with there language.

-I and Father are the one.
means we are on the same side, the rightous side)

-If you have seen me you have seen the father, I'm the way and the truth.
(means like on their times all the previous Prophets are the way and the truth and who have seen them seen the Father OR the way of the Father OR the way choosen by the Father).

And please don't avoid many QUESTIONS raised in by my previous 2 mails.
LIKE YOUR CHURCH AND PREISTS ALWAYS DO!!! NEVER CAME TO OPEN PUBLIC DEBAT WITH MUSLIMS??????

Questions like few mentioned below:
1- To whome Jesus(A.S) use to prostrate? Does God prostrate in front of any body???
2- To whome he refered greater them him?
3- To which people house Jesus(A.S) prefer to come again, (i)to the house of people how claim they love him (christians) BUT BREAK EACH AND EVERY LAW HE CAME TO FULFIL or (ii) to the house of people who follow each and every law of Jesus(A.S) as well which he came to fulfil (We muslims)???

AND ALL THE REST OF THE QUESTIONS IN MY PREVIOUS MAILS? I WOULD LIKE TO SEE IF YOU DARE TO ANSWER?

One needs to see through the FABRICATED LIES which are constantly REVISED AND REMOVED till today and hardly left with any authenticity.

Christians always have there own decieving way with there language.

-I and Father are the one.
means we are on the same side, the rightous side)

-If you have seen me you have seen the father, I'm the way and the truth.
(means like on their times all the previous Prophets are the way and the truth and who have seen them seen the Father OR the way of the Father OR the way choosen by the Father).

And please don't avoid many QUESTIONS raised in by my previous 2 mails.
LIKE YOUR CHURCH AND PREISTS ALWAYS DO!!! NEVER CAME TO OPEN PUBLIC DEBAT WITH MUSLIMS??????

Questions like few mentioned below:
1- To whome Jesus(A.S) use to prostrate? Does God prostrate in front of any body???
2- To whome he refered greater them him?
3- To which people house Jesus(A.S) prefer to come again, (i)to the house of people how claim they love him (christians) BUT BREAK EACH AND EVERY LAW HE CAME TO FULFIL or (ii) to the house of people who follow each and every law of Jesus(A.S) as well which he came to fulfil (We muslims)???

AND ALL THE REST OF THE QUESTIONS IN MY PREVIOUS MAILS? I WOULD LIKE TO SEE IF YOU DARE TO ANSWER?

One needs to see through the FABRICATED LIES which are constantly REVISED AND REMOVED till today and hardly left with any authenticity.

i have to agree with soja here-
ive been around several relaionships like the ones butterfly lady describes, and there were always inconsistencies and insecurities abounding

even if the favorites change - there are still faovrites- and the dynamics in reality had to be forced-

the supposed benefits didnt seem to work out equitably either-

in communal situations it always broke down in the same way- the workers and responsible ones end up picking up the slack for the loafers- and resented it

and people would just naturally pair off anyway-
they always did

theres always slights and tiffs

more people, more conflict
even when trying to present themselves as a superior unit- you could eventually if oyu were close see the cracks, small injustices- and it never really was fair

just an observation

Thomas & Ross,

1- I havent qouted the exact words but more or less the same expresion.

2- One better speak upon evidence and not upon personal opinion. Read both the books and evaluate your self which is human/satan handy work keep on changing taking out lies/ incorrect maths/information and which is divine unchanged/correct? And ask your self does God lies and decieve or satan????

3- I would also expect your answer to my questions in this post and previous???

Thomas & Ross,

1- I havent qouted the exact words but more or less the same expresion.

2- One better speak upon evidence and not upon personal opinion. Read both the books and evaluate your self which is human/satan handy work keep on changing taking out lies/ incorrect maths/information and which is divine unchanged/correct? And ask your self does God lies and decieve or satan????

3- I would also expect your answer to my questions in this post and previous???

Soja:
"I have lived for twenty years in the West without coming across the kind of plural marriage you referred to."

I didn't say it was a widespread phenomenon. I simply said that I knew people for whom it apparently worked and worked quite well.

"Yes, I have met people who lived the "free sex" relationships of the hippies without being married (without being impressed enough to be part of it by virtue of being an incurable romantic with no emotional capacity for casual sex and multiple partners)."

So have I. That's not the relationship I was describing.

"Genuine companionship is possible only with one other person, not with many."

So a relationship model must be one-size-fits-all in order to be valid? I don't buy it. As I've said before, I can only deal with one significant other at a time, but I don't assume that what works for me is the only way it should be. To say that because monogamy is the only way that works for me means that it is the only way that works at all would be as wrong as to say that because heterosexuality is the only way that works for me that is is the only way that works at all.

"Nuclear families, highly differentiated and monogamous relationships, individuality, is a development in the evolutionary process, not the other way around."

That just makes them one viable model among many.

LEPIDOPTERYX:

I have lived for twenty years in the West without coming across the kind of plural marriage you referred to. I thought the attempt to create such a living style by hippies ended in great failure. Yes, I have met people who lived the "free sex" relationships of the hippies without being married (without being impressed enough to be part of it by virtue of being an incurable romantic with no emotional capacity for casual sex and multiple partners). I didn't get the impression that those who lived the style were particularly happy (in fact I knew one who was very lonely and wanted out but somehow was trapped in the lifestyle). They were most definitely not happier than the happily married couples or those in steady relationships I have known. It is my impression that one compromises on the depth in a relationship when there is more than one partner, even if the partner agrees to the plural relationship. Genuine companionship is possible only with one other person, not with many. I have found people who have been in long term loving monogamous relationships with genuine fidelity on the part of both partners to be deeply secure and emotionally stable.

People lived as communities in the past, and joint families were a part of such a society. Relationships were less differentiated. In India, the tribals live a rather loose sexual lifestyle with no rigid rules concerning marriage, not because they are modern, but simply because their values and personal identities are less differentiated. Nuclear families, highly differentiated and monogamous relationships, individuality, is a development in the evolutionary process, not the other way around.

Moody, Moody, Moody and Moses, Moses, Moses,

Step back a bit more in time. Good Christians, Jews, Pagans, atheists and Muslims follow the rules and codes of the ancients that were entered into the OT, NT and koran by "borrowing"/plagiarizing scribes of said religions. So honor people like King Hammurabi not the OT Moses, Jesus or Mohammed.

So in reality

MUSLIMS OBEY JESUS (A.S.) AND HIS GOD OF WHOLE CREATION MORE THEN CHRISTIANS!!!

Thomas Baum,

I don't mind your language because by now I came to conclusion that it is common norm in west, false accusations and slinging dirt on others IGNORING CONCRETE PROOFS.
And now in reply to your post: BRINGING PROOF FROM YOUR OWN BIBLE BECAUSE YOU BELIEVE IN IT SO YOU NEED IT TO VARIFY,
AS MUSLIMS PROOF AND WHAT WE BELIEVE IS QURAN.

Lies or Truth: Evidence speaks for it self.

1- There is not a single verse in ANY VERSION of Bible where Jesus (A.S) said, worship me OR I'm god. Instead he said,” I speak what I hear from father”, “My Father is greater than me."

2- Again word "Trinity" is not mentioned in ANY VERSION of the Bible. The closest verse to trinity that,” Father, Holy Ghost & spirit is one" is thrown out in your REVISED VERSION on Bible. As all your high priests said,” It was a concoction, fabrication, addition, a lie in the Bible, as no such verse is found in the most ancient scriptures".
So please ask your own priests who is lying and fabricating??????

3-We Muslims FOLLOW more in Jesus (A.S) commandments then you Christians:

(You say, you love Jesus (A.S.), but you disobey his every commandment).

4-From Adam to Jesus (PBUT) MENTIONED IN YOUR BIBLE, all prophets when prayed to God, they prostrated like we Muslims.
Do you follow Jesus, how to pray?

5- In ALL Bibles more than 3 times Jesus said swine-pig in forbidden to eat. We Muslims follow him, but you Christians follow PAUL and disobey Jesus (A.S.) commandments.

6- More than 4 occasions in ALL Bibles Jesus (A.S) told wine has bad attributes on the humans. But Paul quotes the "FIRST MIRACLE OF JESUS" and since then wine is flowing like water in Christendom and NOT AT ALL in Muslimdom. (Bible said water tasted like wine and never said turned into wine).

7- Jesus said," I came to keep all the commandments of the God and not to break them". But you Christians broke EACH AND EVERY of them.
Hale-aluu-Yaa to Church, Paul, Mathew, John and Luke!!!!!

8-According to Christian Bible first miracle of Jesus (A.S.) was turning water taste like wine and recovering the shortage in the gathering. But according to Quran the first miracle of Jesus was talking to Jews when he was infant in his mother’s arms.

When after birth, Mary came:
9-According to the BIBLE she told the Jews that she hear voices and then had a child birth. Do you believe your daughter or sister, if she come and tell you she had birth after hearing voices? Do you think when she had told that to the Jews, they would have believed it???
But Quran tells that the Jews accused her, she knows that Jesus (A.S) was the miraculous birth. So she told the Jews ask the infant. And miraculously Jesus (A.S) talked to them and told them to be nice and respectful to my mother as she is among the highest of the pious. Quran gives highest respect to Mary, even there is a complete chapter by her name in Quran. You have chapters named by Mathew, Luke, John or lying Paul and many others but not a single by his mothers name Mary.
Which version would you like to tell to your children, HEARING VOICES AND GETTING PRAGNANT or MIRACULOUS TALK????

10-Christians says Jesus (A.S) was the BEGOTTEN SON. What are you trying to apply here? So what you are trying to put in all the humans throat is that the All Mighty God who made every thing miraculously from Adam to every thing of this world needs to come done to seed…. (God forgive us for such satanic thinking). Allah tells in Quran that when He wants to do some thing, He just says and it happens. He begets not nor He begotten. Human miracles are not the proof of any kind of divinity. Jesus (A.S) was the prophet like all other prophets with miracles.

11-Christians says Jesus (A.S) get crucified for there sins. And a son of god (not mentioned any where in the Bible he himself never said that). And dozens of Bible verses proving that he was not died through crucifixion. You Christians are also divided about it.
So basically what you are making to swallow us (the whole human race) is that the whole nation rape, kill and do bad atrocities and when brought for justice there King hang his own son instead of punishing them. IT DOES REALLY MAKE SENSE! Hale- alu- Yaa PAUL and the greatest deceiving of the human history.

4- Jesus says “ He is jealous God only pray to Him”. But Christians are eager to make partner to Him. We Muslims only pray to God and don’t make any partners to Him.

So I am asking you a question:

Next time does Jesus (A.S) come to the house of people who are obeying his commandments OR who are TOTALLY disobeying his commandments???

Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,

Correct the flaws in your warmongering religion and then we can go on to less important issues.

In the meantime, this quote summarizes the issue:

"Until the koran is "deflawed", no one is safe"

well i guess this post has been commandeered by lib

i guess sally and jo will have to use their emromous intellects to come up with another fluff question

how about, what does hanukah mean to you and your family?

Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,

So observant of you, I guess. Please note that my comments were addressed to Moody who continues to struggle with his koranic brainwashed neurons even more so than you. Apparently, Moody assumes that the centuries-old civil war/hatred is centered only in Iraq but you and I know that is not true.

And you still fail to see the major issue i.e. the flaws in Islam and how they affect world peace. You should have these flaws memorized by now so I will not repeat them but if you somehow forgot, I have them ready for a quick and essential repeat. That famous quote,

"Until the koran is "deflawed", no one is safe"

should bring the complete list of flaws back into your immediate focus.

thanks for the link moody-

liberated- what on earthi is your point?
youve been posting that article for a year now- what possible conclusion are you attempting to communicate here?

clearly whatever is in your head, and seems obvious to you, the rest of us are just gliding over it-

so are you saying the shia are your friends and the sunni are your enemy?
or what?

does that include the shia in iran? or do you have to reorganize who you hate and who you dont hate to accomodate that?

whose side are you on anyway?
i cant even figure that out

for instance, in iraq, i think(its hard to keep track of) the shia are the allies, right?

and we went to clean out the WMDS (oops- didnt exist) and then to liberate the shia, right?

but now we want to go and kill the shia in iran?

its hard to keep track of-
it reminds me of 1984 (in the movie version) where winston is watching the trucks of prisoners being trucked through town, and asks, werent they our allies last week?

Moody, Moody, Moody,

Only Iraq????

From: CNN,

"Al-Sistani was apparently referring to Abdullah bin Jabrain, a key member of Saudi Arabia's clerical establishment, who last month joined a chorus of other senior figures from the hardline Wahhabi school of Sunni Islam that regards Shiites as infidels.

Bin Jabrain described Shiites as "the most vicious enemy of Muslims."

And it "ain't any better" in Palestine:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/22/world/middleeast/22jihadists.html?ex=1311220800&en=477ff07cfa579449&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

"On Web, a Sunni-Shiite Split on Hezbollah"

Ohhhhhh, please, get on with it already. By now, this subject is as stale as the spot on Monica's dress.

Seems the posters kinda got off subject. Let's try to get it back on track:
Is America's pubilc obsession with sex good or bad?
I'd say it is overall negative, it distracts many people from real issues when directed toward public figures. We like the voyeuristic, vicarious candy of the moment so we don't have to settle for the carrots of being informed. (OK, poor metaphor, so sue me)

Is extramarital sex a sin?
Yes, it is clearly that by any religious or philosophical viewpoint. And for those who don't subscribe to any such thing, it complicates life and relationships, causing problems that may manifest in other facets of a life. Yes, a bad thing and a sin (because it is bad; it isn't bad because it is a sin)

Is it forgivable?
Yes. My Christ teaches to forgive even egregious hurts. Besides the purely practical reasons adultery is bad, it is a spiritual failure that is - - not allowed, not expected per se - - something that Jesus paid for, asking us only to forgive and withhold judgment (He will take care of that).

Is it a public matter?
Obviously it is for public figures. They have chosen their walk and it includes no privacy. One of the practical considerations of public life is that a public figure can't really hide anything any more, and some (Rudy G., for instance) don't hide it but rather play it up some for the political rehabilitation fans.

Since it is dangerous and counterproductive to judge the hearts of others, the spiritual aspect of the sin is between the sinner and his Maker, while the practical aspects of the act dominate the scope of newsies and busybodies.

Thanks

Moody, Moody, Moody, Ahmed, Ahmed, Ahmed,

Your Three B affliction is at a high level. The cure has been presented and requires no doctor or drugs just some common sense.

You can watch free Islamim tv on this link:

http://islambox.tv/watch/PeaceTVUSA.ashx

Dear ANDIE,

Type only peacetv
on google. And you will find the info. Some how so many Islamic sites are corrupted on search engines.

Well you can guess why?

CCNL:

Shia and sunni, why only in Iraq and why only after US invasion?
In Bush and bushers opinion the world is stupid!

Dear Indie,

In on line, read Quran with understanding and it will open your heart.

If you find something hard to understand and in case of difficult questions in your mind, ask the true scholars and don't fall pray to the twisted and wrong meanings given by disbelievers. They only see what they have!
Mostly it is easy to understand.

For your reference go to www.peacetv.com
There you will find authentic scholars from all over the world, like Dr. Zakir Naik, Sheikh Ahmed Dedaad, Mr. Abdul Raheem Green, Mr. Yousaf Astis and many more.
You will find there the MOST SATISFACTORY answers of any difficult question.

And dear true believe is a journey sometime with lots of hick-ups and mistakes. And can only be acheived with Allah's Will.

Thomas:
I can read, partially speak and understand Arabic.

Ross:
I'm mentioning THE TRUTH and all you are talking about the discoveries about the truth. The point is not by whom BUT discovered. I DON'T BLAME YOU IF YOU CAN'T SEE THE DIFFERENCE!

CCNL:
You and like your have no shame comparing couple of thousand with millions of FREEDOM SPONSERED killings. Where many of those unjust actions have NO PROOF to link with the TERROR FIGHTERS.
e.g., 9/11
Click on google just 9/11 and you will find all kind of expert, professional and scientific PROOFS showing that those planes couldn't at all possibly collaspe the towers.
Let me give you line of direction towards the investigation to find the truth.
1- Why all the jews of towers were on holiday on 9/11?
2- See the demolition and destruction of all kind of building, bombed, burned for MANY DAYS and not couple of floors for FEW HOURS on google.
3- See the pattern of buildings falling when destroyed and compare with technique of IMPLOSION is applyed? see on google!
4- On google you will also find the towers timely and systematic blasts on each floor flim captured.
5- On google see Pentagon crach recording. Where are the impact of wings in the hole of the wall? Was it a plane crash?? Where is the rubble? See on google.
6-How could the passport of terrorist found, safe and perfect OUT OF PLANE??
BUSH AND IN THERE ADMINISTRATIONS OPINION, THE WHOLE WORLD IS STUPID....right CCNL!

Your tax dollars pays for this religion of control and pre-emptive nuking of anyone who does not agree with you. talk about the log in your own eyes:

http://www.islamicity.com/m/news_frame.asp?Frame=1&referenceID=35045

Ahmed, Ahmed, Ahmed,

Hopefully your radar will detect some "pwtfft"s!!!! And maybe a flying chariot pulled by camels??? And maybe its rider, the wandering, warmongering, illiterate, womanizing, hallucinating Arab will finally say something original to you and Islam.

And for your contemporary list of facts:

A Partial Body Count and why "Until the koran is deflawed, no one is safe!!!!

1) 9/11, 3000 mostly US citizens, 800 injured,

2) The 24/7 Sunni-Shiite centuries-old blood feud currently being carried out in Iraq, 4000 US troops and 77,573 – 84,502 Iraqi civilians http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

3) Kenya- In Nairobi, about 212 people were killed and an estimated 4000 injured; in Dar es Salaam, the attack killed at least 11 and wounded 85.[2]

4) Bali-in 2002-killing 202 people, 164 of whom were foreign nationals, and 38 Indonesian citizens. A further 209 people were injured.

5) Bali in 2005- Twenty people were killed, and 129 people were injured by three bombers who killed themselves in the attacks.

6) Spain in 2004- killing 191 people and wounding 2,050.

7) UK in 2005- The bombings killed 52 commuters and the four radical Islamic suicide bombers, injured 700.

Other elements of our War on Terror:

1. Saddam, his sons and major henchmen have been deleted. Saddam's bravado about WMD was one of his major mistakes.

2. Iran is being been contained. (beside containing the Sunni-Shiite civil war in Baghdad, that is the main reason we are in Iraq. And yes, essential oil continues to flow from the region.)

3. Libya has become almost civil. Apparently this new reality from an Islamic country has upset OBL and his “crazies” as they recently threatened Libya. OBL sure is a disgrace to the world especially the Moslem world!!!

4. North Korea is still uncivil but is contained. With the opening up of rail traffic between North and South Korea after 50 years and with the assistance of the US Navy in retrieving NK ships and personnel, a fresh sense of civility is afoot.

5. Northern Ireland is finally at peace.

6. The Jews and Palestinians are being separated by walls. Hopefully the walls will follow the 1948 UN accords and the Annapolis Peace Conference is at least somewhat successful.

7. Bin Laden has been cornered under a rock in Western Pakistan since 9/11.

8. Fanatical Islam has basically been contained to the Middle East but a wall between India and Pakistan would be a plus for world peace. Ditto for a wall between Afghahistan and Pakistan.

9.Timothy McVeigh was executed. Terry Nichols will follow soon.

10. Eric Rudolph is spending three life terms in prison with no parole.

11. Jim Jones, David Koresh, Kaczynski, the "nuns" from Rwanda, and the KKK were all dealt with and either eliminated themselves or are being punished.

12. Islamic Sudan, Darfur and Somalia are still terror hot spots.

13. Although a bit dated, the terror and torture of Muslims in Bosnia, Kosovo and Kuwait were ended by the proper application of the military forces of the USA and her freedom-loving friends.

14. And of course the bloody terror brought about the Japanese, Nazis and Communists was with great difficulty eliminated by the good guys.

judeochristian mass tongue and genitalia.
jc mass ideology,mass tongue and mass gen is the same ,is sequel of one another and circle of one another.
1-jc have one tongue in god but yet another tongue in the so called son of god.
2-one tongue in christ and another tongue in jefferson.
3-2 minds,one mind in the mass sex media and another mind in the mass fideility.
4-one tongue in democracey yet another tongue and another gen in people bussiness and property.
5-one tongue in science and logic and another tongue in the rotten fossilism of relics .
5-one tongue in church idealism and another whole different tongue and gen in real practical life,they preach jc on sunday but the rest of the week they practice secularism.
6-one tongue and gen in the church pool, yet another tongue and gen in the mass buck pool.
7-one tongue and gen in peace yet another tongue and gen in oppression and injustice.
8-one tongue and gen in loveing god yet another tongue and gen in disobeying god.
9-one tongue in the just god and another tongue in the constitutional god.
10-one tongue and gen in this life and another tongue and gen in the hearafter.

the double standard of judeochristian mass culture will never lead mankind to none but destruction.

Concerned

You have such flawed judgement. To avoid looking at your own mischief you keep harking at muslims in general. Take a close look at your own self-righteous foreign policy before you accuse me of anything. In this day of internet, nothing is hidden except your head in the fake sand of your own thoughts.

Wake up and admit to the fact that your country has the biggest power and it is using it in a major negative way and your taxes pay for that.

Like a cracked record with its needle stuck, you hark on a 1000 years of injustices that I never had a part in but try to avoid what injustices you inflict today. Right now. Concern yourself with NOW.

This is my last post addressing your cracked record. You have moved from my radar.

America seems obsessed with gossip of any sort.

Or is that maybe just human nature at work?

Take care, be ready, see you in the Kingdom.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

When the sexual escapades of public figures result in scandal, the media are quick to contact evangelical leaders for a comment. After the evangelical leader comments, the reporter then asks him why he's so obsessed with someone else's sex life.

I think the media is much more obsessed with sex than the average person and then in order to justify their constant coverage of sex scandals, they claim that this is what the public wants. Meanwhile ratings go down.

Adultery is a sin and it is forgivable. It involves only the people directly affected by it.

Gaby,

How about one last crack at the perverted Kennedy family? Those great examples of big money trumping truth and fidelity!!! Those mentors of "Billy Boy"!!!! Amoral adulterers and "womanslaughterers" are they!!!

I think it's time to change the subject.

Dear Moody,
I am the one you describe as "don't come to believe even after more than 1000 miraculous signs".
What do I do?

A woman's preference being above all, the choice of mate, as fathering of an child. Where father not always being the best partner, as partner not always the best father. Woman, at all times must be given, allowed freedom, as given respect when having choice to make in such matters. The matter of SEX it an act of pleasure which being open to all, as should not be retricted within marriage. SEX is to be enjoyed, and of course it being from a loving base, where there being no intention of preying on children. Causing harm. At the present stage of human development the sexual component vital, therefore be respected finding a balance, important, as understanding experience grows, ajusting the balance fitting, all needs, within common agreement... .. .

SOJA:
**I am yet to meet a couple who are passionately in love with each other, feel incomplete or miss a third party! It is only couples (one partner) who do not love each other who are "bursting" with excess "love" and need to have sex outside their committed relationships!**

I do know people who are in committed gorup situations, and I don't think it's a case of a lack of real love. Everyone in the group is commmitted to the group, and bringing someone new into the group must be a unanimous decision. It's so much more than just a matter of a sexual round robin.

I would not presume to say that they don't really love each other. From what I can tell from my interaction with them, they most certainly do. It's just not a model that works for me. Same-sex doesn't work for me either - but I would never presume that because I could not feel romantic/erotic love for another woman that it means that a lesbian friend isn't really in love with her wife, or a gay friend isn't really in love with his husband.

Gaby and Lepidopteryx

I have really enjoyed reading how you both would react if your partners cheated on you - kick the partner out with the door attached to him. Really cute!

Your attitudes towards fidelity in a relationship brings home a really important point. The pain of adultery is ultimately about hurting another human being and betraying the trust that has been placed in a relationship. I am yet to meet a couple who are passionately in love with each other, feel incomplete or miss a third party! It is only couples (one partner) who do not love each other who are "bursting" with excess "love" and need to have sex outside their committed relationships! Then evolutionary biology and the need to spread their seed or whatever becomes suddenly a good excuse. The pseudo religious give it a religious spin, about "universal love" and "holistic" view of human life etc.

You can close your eyes or do not accept for what ever reasons you have..
BUT YOU CAN'T DENY THAT EVERY RAIONAL INTELLIGENT LOGICAL KNOWLEDGE & SICENCE IS TESTIFYING FOR QURAN....AFTER EVERY NEXT DISCOVERY AND AWARENESS!

MODREN SCIENCE AND QURAN (ISLAMIC DIVINE BOOK)

Quran is not a book of science BUT a book of signs. It has more than 6000 verses out of which more than 1000 verses giving CLEAR signs about the modern scientific proven facts in recent couple of hundred years. (WHICH BY ANY POSSIBLE MEANS CANNOT BE SAID BY US HUMANS 1400 YEARS BACK)

- For some people ONE sign is enough to believe.
- For some people 10 signs are enough.
- But some people don't come to believe even after more than 1000 miraculous signs.

Verses about:

1- Big bang theory (in a nut shell).
2- Geo spherical Ostrich egg shaped earth.
3- Cosmic dust (referred more perfectly as smoke).
4- How water seep into the earth and rain cycle through AIR.
5- Sweet and salt water of oceans and barrier between them.
6-Expanding sun, solar system and universe for given period of time
7- Earth, sun and stars revolving on their axis and path (orbits).
8- Sun and moon have different paths (orbits).
9- Sun and stars consuming there energy.
10- Reflected sun light of moon. In Arabic mooneer (moon) it self means reflected light.
11- Upper thin layer of earth, which is hold by mountains as nails (bigger in size deep in earth) from shacking.
12- Perfect shape and stages of human embryo.
13- All living being made out of water.
14- All plants and even fruits have male and female atributes.
15- The exact way of plants and animals behaviour and how they communicate.

AND MANY MORE............

THESE ARE ALL RECENT DISCOVERIES AND SIGN FOR THOSE SINCERELY SEEKING TRUTH!!!!!! AND REMEMBER THAT IS NOT WHAT QURAN IS ALL ABOUT... THESE ARE JUST TESTIFYING SIGNS WITHOUT ANY FLAW OR FAULT.

Ahmed,

How do you know so much about "decadence" in the West? Hmmm, checking out all those porno and gambling sites? Be careful, nothing is secret on the internet and that knock at your door is probably the local imam's "stone em" group.

And no degree of deflection will change that famous quote,

"Until the koran is "deflawed", no one is safe."

The Western society is an openly permissive society under the guise of freedom and democracy. Check out your porn/drugs/gambling websites. Then the very same people who vote and expect their presidents and reps to be clean Jesus-like figures, themselves indulge in every kind of obscenity.

What does that make one?

You deserve the government you get. It has nothing to do with sin or religious beliefs. One can hold high moral values and still fall for another woman. But would you crucify him/her? Under your moral value judgments yes, you tried impeaching Clinton.

But someone like Bush who has lied to you. Taken the country to war, continues to lie, has so much conflict of interest and all his yes men around keep repeating lies to take the country to another war with Iran. Someone like him with so much blood on his hand, can go scott-free.

Tell me who is the sinner??

All of this Clinton-bashing, and not a word about Saint Rudy of 9/11 and his "Tryst Fund"? Not only charging security for his mistress to the NYC government, but they had to chauffeur her around? And his love nest in WTC 7? I hope all of you who are getting on your high horse about Bill Clinton's affair aren't planning on voting for Guiliani. After all, if a politician cheats on his wife (and charges it to the taxpayers), he'll cheat the public. Right?

Argh my bad The response to the second question, 'Is sex outside of marriage a forgivable sin?' should have been yes, of course.

Is sex outside of marriage a sin? Of course! Why? Because the Bible says selfishness is a sin and promiscuity is, at heart, a selfish act.

Is it unforgivable? No.

It is public matter to the extent that one of the parties involved chooses to make it so or if it is done in Public or if it places one in the position of committing an illegal act as in the case Of Bill Clinton's perjury before the Arkansas court.

The minister after his sunday morning fleecing service was saying his goodbyes to the flock as he always does, when young Nancy came up to him in tears. 'What's bothering you so, lamb for the slaughter ?' inquired the minister. 'Oh I've got terrible news,' she replied. 'Well what is it ?' It's George my husband, he passed away last night. 'Oh,' said the minister, that's terrible. Tell me, did he have any last requests ?' 'Well, yes he did, replied Nancy. 'What did he ask ?' 'He said, "Please, honeypie, put down the gun",'

I continue to be amazed about the silence concerning the perverted Kennedy family. After all, did they not serve as sexual mentors for "Billy Boy"?????

Hmmm, murder, womanslaugther, adultery, and more adultery!!! Then there is their favorite "Reverend" Jesse J. Well at least "Billy Boy" did not DUI with Monica in a car!!! And "Teddy Boy" continues to get re-elected. So much for "proper conduct" being an issue in Massachusetts politics!!!!!

Some body asked an American settled in Afganistan, WHY?

He replied,"When I was a child, homosexuality was a crime in America. When I grow up, it became legal, so I rushed out before it become compulsory."

PRIVER:
**I suspect the obsession with sex scandals is due to the fact that most people here are not taught about sex in a way that allows people to be comfortable with themselves as sexual beings.**

I'm sure that's a big part of people's avid (sometimes rabid) fascination with the sex lives of celebrities. Who's Paris Hilton making home movies with this week? Did Britney wear panties when she went club-hopping last night? Who was Anna Nicole Smith's baby-daddy? Let's start an office pool on how many babies Brangelina will have/adopt. It's a way to vicariously enjoy "doing the nasty" without the guilt of actually doing it.
Fromthe time she first accidentally walked in on me changing a tampon and later on her dad in the bath when she was four, and noticed that he had parts that she didn't, my daughter has known the proper names for body parts and what their functions are. By the time she hit puberty and started developing a sex drive, she knew why it was not a good idea for her to have sex until she was much older, and she also knew how to protect herself from someof the unpleasant possible consequences if she decided to do it anyway.
I didn't tell her not to have sex because it would make Baby Jesus cry - that's not a good reason. I wanted her to know that her body belonged to her, and that to share it with someone else was a big decision, and one that should wait until she was old enough to be able to make that decision with her eyes wide open. As a result, she felt comfortable coming to me and asking me to make her an appointment with my OB/GYN when she decided that she wanted to go on the pill, rather than sneaking around and trying to hide things from me. She and her boyfriend are planning to move in together as soon as they graduate.

I suspect the obsession with sex scandals is due to the fact that most people here are not taught about sex in a way that allows people to be comfortable with themselves as sexual beings. People don't always know what it is, how it works, what the risks are and how to respect themselves and each other. People don't want to accept responsibility for their actions. Trying to suppress something as natural as sexuality tends to backfire. Instead of regarding it as a healthy human drive it gets distorted, and what is to me something sacred between two consenting adults is made into something that is used to gain power over others. Especially those who cannot defend themselves.

I don't think of things in terms of 'sin'. I think of things in terms of who is harmed. It is the person on the other side of the commitment (with or without the legal documents) who can decide