Forgiving Enemies

Moody writes: Why Muslims killing Muslims. The answer is in very recent example:
Before American Invasion, Sunni Iraqi Tyrant leadership to please its master USA was in war with Shia Iran for more than 8 years. But there was no sign of civil war between Sunni and Shia Iraqi's.

Oh Moody - your blame it all on US sure gets old. Face reality, Muslims have been killing Muslims since right after the Prophet's death and have been since for 1400 years - long before the US even existed. When will Muslims take responsibility for themselves and quit whining that all their woes are caused by others.

Americans could have whined about the colonialization attempts of the British but instead they stood up and opposed it. They solved their own problems instead of playing victim.

As part of the process of reconciliation, we must recognize that all the Abrahamic faiths have an interest and a right to access Jerusalem/Palestine.

The link below highlights the historical, not mythological right that Muslims have to Palestine along with their Jewish and Christian brothers and sisters. It is our responsibility to find a way to make this land accessible to all and ensure peace and safety to all.

See link:

http://debate.org.uk/topics/history/debate/part3.htm

Today, demonic influence continues to promote human cruelty, as was foretold in the Bible: “In the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. For men will be lovers of themselves, . . . self-assuming, haughty, . . . unthankful, disloyal, having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, betrayers, headstrong, puffed up with pride, lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, having a form of godly devotion but proving false to its power.”—2 Timothy 3:1-5.
Bible prophecies reveal that our times are particularly critical because after God’s Kingdom by Christ Jesus was established in 1914, Satan and his demon hordes were ousted from the heavens. The Bible declares: “Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time.”—Revelation 12:5-9, 12.
On the other hand, God’s holy spirit is the most powerful force that exists, and it can overcome any demonic influence. It promotes love and the well-being of humans. To be filled with God’s spirit, everyone who wishes to please Jehovah must avoid conduct even bordering on cruelty. This requires transforming one’s personality to conform to the divine will. That will is for us to imitate God’s way to the extent possible. This involves viewing others as God does.(Ephesians 5:1, 2; Colossians 3:7-10.)
A study of God’s way of handling things reveals that Jehovah has never shown a lack of interest in others. He has never treated unjustly any human or for that matter any animal. (Deuteronomy 22:10; Psalm 36:7; Proverbs 12:10) He repudiates cruelty and all who practice it. (Proverbs 3:31, 32) The new personality that Jehovah requires Christians to cultivate helps them to consider others as superior and to respect them. (Philippians 2:2-4) That new Christian personality includes “the tender affections of compassion, kindness, lowliness of mind, mildness, and long-suffering.” Not to be ignored is love, “for it is a perfect bond of union.” (Colossians 3:12-14) The world would be a different place if such qualities abounded.
Around the globe, millions who have studied the Bible have put cruelty behind them. It is possible to change.
In the near future, God’s Kingdom—a government now established in the heavens with a compassionate Ruler, Christ Jesus—will exercise full authority over the earth. It has already cleansed the heavens of Satan, the source of all cruelty, and his demons. Soon, God’s Kingdom will satisfy the needs of its peace-loving subjects on earth. (Psalm 37:10, 11; Isaiah 11:2-5) That is the only real solution to the world’s problems.
If you become a victim of cruelty while waiting for this Kingdom, responding in kind to cruelty would not help. That would only result in more of the same. The Bible invites us to trust in Jehovah, who in his own due time will “give to each one according to his ways, according to the fruitage of his dealings.” (Jeremiah 17:10) You may suffer because of being the victim of a cruel crime. (Ecclesiastes 9:11) Yet, God can undo the results of any cruelty, even death. According to his promise, those in his memory who have lost their lives to cruel acts will return to life.(John 5:28, 29).
Although the possibility of becoming a victim of cruelty still exists, we can find comfort in having a close relationship with God and firm faith in his promises.
God’s Word offers practical counsel about how to deal with cruelty. Consider how you can apply the following words of wisdom:
Proverbs 20:22
Ecclesiastes 5:8
Matthew 5:5
Matthew 7:12
Romans 12:17-19
1 Peter 2:21-23

-Satan (Personal name : Iblees) is real.
-He (they are) is from the race of Gin’s or Ginni. And humans who obey them also called Satans.
-Made of fire, like us humans are made of water and earth.
-Was made the leader of the Angels for his obedience and worship.
-Was punished for his DISOBEDIENCE & AROGANCE. And granted life until Judgment Day.

(Reminder to Christians who disobey and break one law will not enter the kingdom of Heavens; accept only by the Mercy of Most Merciful and Forgiving God (Allah in Arabic). But with all your sins “through out your life you have to PROVE CONTINUOUSLY” that you are inclined towards OBEYING & REPENTING TO GOD for every sin you do due to obeying Satan becoming under his trap). As human nature is you keep practicing what you want to master sport, business, EVIL / DISOBEDIENCE OR VIRTUE / GOOD / OBEDIENCE OF GOOD DEEDS.

***-The HEAVIEST ON SATAN IS PROSTRATION.***
BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT HE REFUSED TO DO.
AND THAT IS WHAT EVERY APOSTLE (from Adam to Noah to Moses, Jesus and Mohammed (p.b.u.t.)) OF GOD HAS DONE.
***BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT THE MOST FAVOURITE WORSHIP OF GOD OF ALL CREATIONS (ALLAH IN ARABIC) IS. ***

NOW THE SECRET:

On every sin repent through PROSTRATION other than compulsory prostrations in a day and ***that will hurt the Satan so badly*** that he will give up making you do the same sin may be other but not the same. But you need to prostrate in front of THE ONLY GOD. BECAUSE THE **ONLY UNFORGIVEABLE SIN** IS “SHIRK” CALLING / WORSHIPING SOMEBODY ELSE AS GOD WHICH IS USELESS BECAUSE YOU ARE PROSTRATING TO SOMEBODY ELSE AND NOT THE “ONE” THE “CREATOR” THE “SUSTAINER” THE “MOST MERCIFUL” THE “MOST FORGIVING” THE “ONLY” WORTHY OF PROSTRATION.

Now for your information:
-Humans can see Gins or Jinni’s (not everyone). Question is HOW?
-Jinni’s are also believers and non-believers (partners of satan like us humans).
-Gin’s have different abilities than human, e.g., they can reach from one place to another in less than a blink of an eye therefore you can say THEY CAN SEE AND KNOW THINGS that are not possible for humans. They have long life (not every one); therefore some are even from the age of Prophet Mohammed (PBUH), Jesus (A.S.) and even before like satan himself one of the oldest.

- Some of you must have experienced the humans whose bodies are OCCUPIED by some external force. You call it exorcism. Yes this is what non believing satan jinn’s some times also do which is VERY VISUAL other than there regular daily mischief’s with humans like interfering in your thoughts and decisions effecting your daily life making it sinful and making you humans one of the satans.

- Now, I also have some experience of persons with exorcism CURRED by the “Mufti” level of Higher degree in Islam. The one who can give “Fatwah” against any act whether it is acceptable or not in Islam.

MY EXPERIECNE:

I have been told that there are many different ways of experiencing Gin’s. But the experience I had so many times “at different places with that Mufti” is as follows:

At different occasions and different house I have the chance to accompany the Mufti due to one of my friend, at the place of PRESENCE an external force affecting a human body.

The Mufti called “An Innocent Child sinless” age 5 to 8 mostly of the house, if not then asked to bring any of the relatives. Family members and we all are present there at different occasions. ( Mufti told that a sinless adult if not then a child is needed to help, because only they can see certain things other than him).

The sinless person sits in front of the Mufti along with the affected one, if possible otherwise not necessary. Then the Mufti asked the sinless person to close his/her eyes and do not open until he tell them. Then at every different occasion he read some verses and blows at the face of the sinless person sitting in his front. After that every time Mufti started asking questions to that sinless person:
-With closed eyes do you see someone else than already present in the room.
Reply: Yes, Few people came and sat behind Mufti, some are weird looking different then humans. But every time child never gets afraid even after.
- Mufti always ask there names and send them greetings. (Mufti told us they are his friends and helpers – Gin’s).
- Then Mufti proceeds ask them, if it is possible for them to control and correct or diminish the other presence. The Mufti’s friends – Gin’s were also pious practicing believers, who checked around and on every occasion confirm back through the sinless innocent child that they can do it.
- Then Mufti and his friends finish there job – remove the presence either capture them or make them agree to live immediately etc.
- Then the Mufti again read some verses and blows at the face of the sin less person and asked him/her to open there eyes.

Results are every time immediate and positive.

Thanks boys88558274422f7d7806c2f4db5a3e73a0

Wake up Deb & Dave from your ignorance
And CCNL get some help and treatment for your Insanity!!

Why Muslims killing Muslims. The answer is in very recent example:
Before American Invasion, Sunni Iraqi Tyrant leadership to please its master USA was in war with Shia Iran for more than 8 years. But there was no sign of civil war between Sunni and Shia Iraqi's, further more any kind of security forces killing and public bomb blasts on such every day mass scale level, AND THERE CIVIL FABRIC WAS INTACT.. It is USA who plotted TWIN TOWERS and by ALL means fueling the Muslim riots among the Muslims AND KEEPING THE FUEL!!!!!!

Exactly the way colonist did in there 300 year era. IT IS NOT SOME THING NEW……..BLOODY DIVID AND RULE CRUELITY WITH RUTHLESNESS.

And same is the British and French last 300 year colonial history on the Muslim lands. Where only Muslims were crushed and oppressed barbarically. It is all very open on record available every where. All you need to just search Google.

And though suicide is forbidden in Islam. But after almost 60 years long BARBARISM OF ISRAEL AND SILENCE OF HYPOCRATE WEST, the hopeless tormented Muslims (now in many different regions starting from Palestine) are committing that forbidden sin, giving up hope in extreme frustration from there present state of destroyed life by every means. THANKS TO THE BEASTS BECOME MONSTORS………..

dave- i really dont know what insular area of america youre hiding in-

i know of no americans who were very surprised at 911

but more than half of americans at this point dont believe muslims were responsible (dont blame me, blame pew polling)

i remember when the federal building in oklahoma was blown up-
all day and the next, there was a nebulous "arabic group" repsonsible.

for 10 years prior the media had been creating a new enemy- i am certainly not the only one who noticed this-
i remember when russians were always the villain-

before i became muslim, i noticed the media turn

it doesnt take a rhodes scholar to see these things as theyre not very subtle

think for yourself

"M-

Two questions at November 21, 2007 8:56 PM .

-Are you saying you have never heard of greater and lesser jihad?

-Please give current examples of Hirabah. Are there any?

I am still busy with a long happy holiday weekend."

One last post. Any way: I've learned something about strident Muslim women from this exchange..

WITH CORRECTION........

Deb & Dave,

Since you forget history and prefer not to discuss your religion (???) let me enlighten you:

- When Prophet (PBUH) finally entered Mecca with his army, not a single person was killed. And he gave amnesty to every one INCLUDING HIS WORST ENEMIES, people who for 13 years keep on killing his family, his disciples, newly reverted Muslims, tried to kill him so many time, who tortured and butchered Muslims through out his life, with the trail of all previous wars raged by them upon Muslims.

- In 13-14 century, Christian crusaders took Jerusalem by force and ruled over it with IRON FIST for 100 years, not allowing Muslims to practice there religion and extreme oppression. But when Sultan Salahudin Ayubi took it back, he gave unconditional pardon to all the Christians and Jews, following his Prophets (PBUH) foot steps. And since then all religions were practiced there with out any oppression until ISRAEL came into being.

-Israelis (Jews) forgot that when the European Crusaders thrown them out of ALL Europe. The only place they got amnesty, peace and lived freely for more than 800 years in Spain with Muslims under there rule. Finally, after that they were thrown out once again into Palestine.

-And you Hindus forgot that you are ruled by your own race converted Muslims for more than 1000 years. And as per your Indian records, audio / visual documentaries and movies, which until now tells and applaud about the justice of Muslim rules and rulers. IF we would have to convert you Hindus by sword, there was no Hindu left after 1000 year of Muslim rule. Look around the comparative world history of Crusaders, colonists and other nations, filled with forceful conversions and slavery, about which Christian Pop publicly apologized about 4 years back.

- I don't want to go into details why Indian Muslims ruled instead of Hindus there. All the reason hidden deep with in your religious discrimination to the very extend of killing each other, burning women alive, as per sacred religion still eating cow dung and pee and so many other ridiculous hate mongering practices...so and so...even today India is the only country where women are less in number, every day more than 3000 female fetuses are aborted there. And continuous genocides of different religious races including there own are still going on under Hindu rule.

Note: Muslims in reality never wanted to divide India. You can read my post in this regard in “Islam and Violence" dated Nov 04, 2007 with the topics.
- India / Pakistan History before Partition
- Pakistan history Politics after Partition.

And why Muslims killing Muslims. The answer is in very recent example:
Before American Invasion, Sunni Iraqi Tyrant leadership to please its master USA was in war with Shia Iran for more than 8 years. But there was no sign of civil war between Sunni and Shia Iraqi's, further more any kind of security forces killing and public bomb blasts on such every day mass scale level. It is USA who plotted TWIN TOWERS and by every means fueling the Muslim riots among the Muslims AND KEEPING THE FUEL!!!!!! EXACTLY THE WAY COLONIST DID IN THERE 300 YEAR ERA. IT IS NOT SOME THING NEW……..BLOODY DIVID AND RULE CRUELITY WITH RUTHLESNESS.
AND SAME IS THE BRITISH AND FRENCH LAST 300 YEAR COLONIAL HISTORY ON THE MUSLIM LANDS. WHERE ONLY MUSLIMS WERE CRUSHED AND OPPRESSED BARBARICLY. IT IS ALL VERY OPEN ON RECORD AVAILABLE EVERY WHERE. ALL YOU NEED TO JUST SEARCH GOOGLE.

And though suicide is forbidden in Islam. But after almost 60 years long BARBARISM OF ISRAEL AND SILENCE OF HYPOCRATE WEST, the hopeless tormented Muslims (now in many different regions starting from Palestine) are committing that forbidden sin, giving up hope in extreme frustration from there present state of destroyed life by every means. THANKS TO THE BEASTS BECOME MONSTORS………..

No wonder why most of the Bible sites and URL are so mysterious and not dealing directly with its contents, instead giving gingle bell stories of good life from her and there!!!!

I always wondered why every passing day west is going shamelessly promiscuous, vulgar, obscene, abhorrent to morality or virtue and repulsive by reason of crass disregard of moral or ethical principles. OTHER THEN RUTHLESSLY VIOLENT AND BARBARIC TO OTHER RELIGIONS AND RACES!!

-Why kids are molested in there dark churches and convents by there priests.TURNED INTO MILLIONS OF GAYS OR ETHEIST, I GUESS BETTER CHOICE FOR THEM!
- Why children are molested by there parents (mostly adopted not blood related) in your society?
- Why every second women is raped in your society? Alone in USA more than 2730 women raped every single day.
-Why teenage girls pregnancy is out of control in your society?
-Why kids are not properly raised by there parents and why old parents are not been taken care by there kids in your society?
-Why your society is so violent and crime rate is so high in its civic fabric?

FIRST I WAS SHOCKED, IMMEDIATELY AFTER READING BIBLE REALIZING THAT ALL MY EYES GET WET, I PRAYED AND THANKED GOD AND ASKED FOR HIS MERCY AND FORGIVENESS, THAT HE SAVED ME FROM THE CURSE OF TWISTED LIES…….AS ALL THE ACTUAL VIRTOUS VERSIONS, ALL THAT WE MUSLIMS KNOW AND MOSTLY NOT AWARE OF THE WAY VULGORLY THOSE HISTORY STORIES ARE TWISTED IN THE BIBLE.

I READ YOUR BIBLE AND CAME TO REALIZE WHAT KIND OF TWISTED VOLGUR ATRIBUTES YOU HAVE ATTACHED TO YOUR PROPHETS AND TO YOUR LORD GOD. YOU HAVEN’T LEFT ANYONE, FATHER TO DAUGHER, SON TO MOTHER, GOD TO SARAH, THERE BASTERED OFF SPRINGS. HAVE YOU LEFT ANYBODY THERE?????
AND THAT IS THE CURSE IN REALITY WHICH IS REFLECTING UPON YOUR WHOLE SOCIETY, BELIEVE IT OR NOT!!!!!!!

VERY FEW EXAMPLE OUT OF THE BIBLE……..

PROPHET LOT AND HIS DAUGHTERS (YOUR BIBLE TELLS SLEEPING TOGATHER AND HAVING CHILDREN)

30 Lot and his two daughters left Zoar and settled in the mountains, for he was afraid to stay in Zoar. He and his two daughters lived in a cave. 31 One day the older daughter said to the younger, "Our father is old, and there is no man around here to lie with us, as is the custom all over the earth. 32 Let's get our father to drink wine and then lie with him and preserve our family line through our father."
33 That night they got their father to drink wine, and the older daughter went in and lay with him. He was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.
34 The next day the older daughter said to the younger, "Last night I lay with my father. Let's get him to drink wine again tonight, and you go in and lie with him so we can preserve our family line through our father." 35 So they got their father to drink wine that night also, and the younger daughter went and lay with him. Again he was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.
36 So both of Lot's daughters became pregnant by their father

PROPHETS SON SLEEPING WITH HER MOTHER YOUR BIBLE TELLS-GENESIS 35

21 Israel moved on again and pitched his tent beyond Migdal Eder. 22 While Israel was living in that region, Reuben went in and slept with his father's concubine Bilhah, and Israel heard of it.
Jacob had twelve sons:

PROPHET ABRAHAM MARRIED HER REAL SISTER ACCORDING TO YOUR BIBLE

11 Abraham replied, "I said to myself, 'There is surely no fear of God in this place, and they will kill me because of my wife.' 12 Besides, she really is my sister, the daughter of my father though not of my mother; and she became my wife.

THE BIRTH OF ISAAC (LORD DID FOR SARAH, WHAT HAD PROMISED) ACCORDING TO YOUR BIBLE IT WAS NOT ABRAHAM
Genesis 21 (New International Version)

1 Now the LORD was gracious to Sarah as he had said, and the LORD did for Sarah what he had promised. 2 Sarah became pregnant and bore a son to Abraham in his old age, at the very time God had promised him.

Now I clearly understand that why our quran tells that bible or any other devine book is not in its orignal form and are all tanted by the evil doers. And that why we do not believe or follow them, though we do believe in all devine books including bible revealed in their original form but do not exist. AND WE ALSO BELIEVE IN ALL THE PROPHETS INCLUDING JESUS CHRIST AND OUR QURAN REJECTS ALL KIND OF VOLGARITIES ATTRIBUTED TO THEM OR TO OUR GOD. AND EXPLAINS AND TELL STORIES ABOUT HOW VIRTUOUS THEY WERE IN REALITY!!!!!

Deb & Dave,

Since you forget history and prefer not to discuss your religion (???) let me enlighten you:

- When Prophet(PBUH) finally entered Mecca with the his army, not a single person was killed. And he gave amnesty to every one including people who for 13 years keep on killing his family, his diciples, newly reverted muslims, tried to kill him so many time, who tourtered and butchered muslims through out his life, with the trail of all previous wars raged by them upon muslims.

- In 13-14 centurey, christian crusaders took Jerusalum by force and ruled over it with IRON FIST for 100 years, not allowing muslims to practice there religion and extreme oppression. But when Sultan Salahudin Ayubi took it back, he gave unconditional pardon to all the Christians and Jews, following his Prophets(PBUH) foot steps. And since then all religions were practiced there with out any operation until ISRAEL came into Being.

-Israelis (Jews) forgot that when the Europion Crusadors throwed them out of from ALL Europe. The only place they got emnsty, peace and lived freely for more than 800 years in Spain with Muslims under there rule. Finally after that they are thrown out once again into Palestine.

-And you Hindus forgot that you are ruled by your own race converted Muslims for more than 1000 years. And as per your Indian records, audio / visual documentories and movies, which until now tells and aploud about the justice of Muslim rules. IF we would have to convert you Hindus by sword, there was no Hindu left after 1000 year of muslim rule. Look around the comparative world history of Crusadors, colonists or other nations.

- I don't want to go into details way Indian muslims ruled instead of hindus there. All the reason hidden deep with in your religious discrimination to the very extend of killing each other, burning women alive, as per sacred religion still eating cow dung and pee and so many other rediclous hate mongering practices...so and so...even today India is the only country where women are less in number, every day more than 3000 female fetuses are aborted there. And continuous genocides of different religious races including there own are still going on under Hindu rule.

Note : Muslims in reality never wanted to divide India. You can read my post in this regard in " Islam and Voilence" dated Nov 04, 2007 with the topics.
- India / Pakistan History before Partition
- Pakistan history Politics after Partition.

And why muslims killing muslims. The answer is in very recent example:
Before American Invasion, Sunni Iraqi Tyrant leadership to please its master USA was in war with Shia Iran for more than 8 years. But there was no sign of civil war between sunni and shia Iraqi's, further more any kind of security forces killing and public bomb blasts on such every day mass scale level. It is USA who ploted TWIN TOWERS and fueling the muslim riots among the muslims AND KEEPING THE FUEL!!!!!!
AND SAME IS THE BRITISH 300 YEAR COLONIAL HISTORY ON THE MUSLIM LANDS. WHERE THEY ARE CRUSED AND OPPRESSED BARBARICLY. IT IS ALL VERY OPEN ON RECORD AVAILABLE EVERY WHERE. ALL YOU NEED TO DO,JUST SEARCH GOOGLE.

And though suicide is forbidden in Islam. But after almost 60 years long BARBARISM OF ISRAEL AND SILENCE OF HYPOCRATE WEST, the hopeless tormented muslims are committing that forbiden sin, giving up hope from there present state of destroyed life by every means.

M-

Two questions at November 21, 2007 8:56 PM .

-Are you saying you have never heard of greater and lesser jihad?

-Please give current examples of Hirabah. Are there any?

I am still busy with a long happy holiday weekend.

Victoria does not seem to be a spiritual person. Not sensitive. Not kind. She's not a good example of Muslim women. Read her posts- she sounds like a b-itch in a hijab.

Walaikum Assalam Victoria!

I had fun...too much food...but a lot of fun! Hope your's was even better!!

Anonymous has not really addressed the two posts that I have listed with quotes and excerpts from the Qur'an. I answered his/her questions but have not received much of a response from him/her.

However, that is fine. Ask me whatever it is that you need to.

asalaamu alaikum mischka- hope your holiday was a festive happening-

really good answer by the way- as you see, it soared high above anonymous' head- so much so that apparnetly he (or she) didnt even seem to notice or recognize it-

lib- i see you still do not overtly or aggressively address any posts to the men here-

you claim you do so with panelists- but you know they never answer back so thats pretty safe-

i still say its creepy the way you only address women in such a bellicose manner-

i noticed the muslim man moody posted, and you were silent, but an hour later when mischka (a woman) posted- you jumped all over her-

i skip over your redundant cut and pastes so if theyre addressed to me- im not seeing it-

youre like the white noise of these boards
always in the background,
easily tuned out

Mischka, Mischka, Mischka,

Such "non-dainty" language from the Islamic upper class!! Your "pwtfft" is cannnot be happy with such talk as you shame her purity of heart!!!!

It is obvious that you are more than ready for the Five Steps to Deprogram Islam!!!

As an added note which you apparently missed:

Victoria, The Jihadist and Mischka,

No one is attacking or picking on you because of your gender. If you check, the three of you make substantially more comments than male Muslims so you of course get more questions and commentary.

Actually your former sister Muslim, Ayaan Hirsi Ali still holds the record for comments and questions basically because of her book, Infidel. The summary of said book explains why:

"Thus begins the extraordinary story of a woman born into a family of desert nomads, circumcised as a child, educated by radical imams in Kenya and Saudi Arabia, taught to believe that if she uncovered her hair, terrible tragedies would ensue. It's a story that, with a few different twists, really could have led to a wretched life and a lonely death, as her grandmother warned. But instead, Hirsi Ali escaped -- and transformed herself into an internationally renowned spokeswoman for the rights of Muslim women."

ref: Washington Post book review.

We trust that Ayaan Hirsi Ali is one of all time heroines and Infidel is one of your favorite books!!!

Jesus Christ !

http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2004/11/13/17051231.php

Sorry M-

I'm busy giving thanks with my family and friends.

Are you saying you have never heard of greater and lesser jihad? That is hard to believe.

Please give current examples of Hirabah. Are there any?

Well- best wishes. I'll try to get back later..

So,

Thats it?

Sorry - that post below is Mischka...

CCNL - You are looking desperate now. Go back to your dirty little rat hole please.

Ananymouse - One more irrelevant post. Having nothing to do with the topic - proving yet again how wierd you are.

Anonymous -

"You've referenced the greater Jihad. Please explain the lesser Jihad."

What do you mean? Jihad is an inner struggle to become a better Muslim or to defend yourself against persecution. Thats it.

"Please give a definition for- hirabah."

Hirabah is an Arabic word for "unlawful warfare". The precise meaning according to Professor Khalid Abou el Fadl "killing by stealth and targeting a defenseless victim or intended to cause terror in society". This is the Islamic definition of terrorism. It is the opposite of Jihad.

"The Message of your Lord is perfected in truth and justice" (6:115)

In relation with Jihad:

Hirabah has been suggested as a better description of Islam terrorism than the often-used 'Jihad'. The argument is that Jihad means a holy struggle for justice. To a Muslim, Jihad can not by definition be a bad thing, and a Jihadi cannot be anything but a hero. The result is that Westerners, by calling terrorist 'jihadis', are calling them 'heroes', and either displaying their ignorance of Islam or reinforcing the idea that terrorism is a legitimate holy struggle.

"In so many countries Muslim against Muslim violence is raging. Why?"

Politics. Many of the Muslim countries you see that are waging war within each other are also third world countries who dont have stable governments as of yet. In these cases, whoever is the loudest, most influential, richest, etc. wins. Usually, these leaders are not the best choices for the country. However, what are they to do? Who else will they turn to? Their options are limited.

"Islam does not limit me from ANYTHING"
"Would you have the same freedom in the countries now under Islamic law?"

I have lived in Pakistan for a total of 4 years as a child. I was born here and my parents sent me to Pak. for religious instruction. I lived there with my grandparents. I never had problems there. My aunts do not wear hijab and they live there. Aside from the extremely social culture, temperature, language and some technological disadvantages...my life there was not difficult. I had fun.

"Are you unlimited because you are living in a free society or because you are a Muslim woman?"

I find myself unlimited because I am a Muslim woman. Again, the rules of my life are set according to Islam first and then anyone else. My family has always practiced Islam before anything else.

"Do all other American women live in freedom?"

Freedom means different things to different people. I dont think a lot of American women live in freedom. The problems I have with my husband (if and when we do have them) are so different from those American women have. By American I mean Caucasian I guess or African American, etc. I consider myself an American Muslim. There is a lack of respect I see in American marriages for women.

"Do all other Muslim women live in freedom?"

This is an interesting question. Islam empowers women to do as they choose. All my life I have been taught that the sky is the limit for me. Just because I am a girl does not mean I am any less then a man. If a woman chooses to grab the reins of her life, Islam allows her to to do that. Its almost like the physically abused women you see even in America. The reasons why women stay with abusive men are very unclear. I cannot say that all other Muslim women live in freedom. However, I can say that Islam definitely allows them all the freedom they could want or desire.

Moody and all Certified Muslims of Analogous Thinking,

Danke Schoen!!!

You now qualify for the Five Step Deprogramming for Removing the Brainwash of Islam as shown below:

"1. Belief in Allah"

"aka as God, Yahweh, Zeus, Jehovah, Mother Nature, etc." should be added to your cleansing neurons.

"2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence."

Evolution and the Big Bang or the "Gib Gnab" (when the universe starts to recycle) are more plausible and the "akas" for Allah should be included if you continue to be a "creationist".

"3. To believe in the existence of angels."

A major item for neuron cleansing. Angels/devils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations, e.g. Hittites, to explain/define natural events, contacts with their gods, big birds, sudden winds, protectors during the dark nights, etc. No "pretty/ugly wingy thingies" ever visited or talked to Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or Joseph or Joe Smith. Today we would classify angels as fairies and "tinker bells". Modern devils are classified as the demons of the demented.

"4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore."

Another major item to delete. There are no books written in the spirit state of Heaven (if there is one) just as there are no angels/"pwtfft"s to write/publish/distribute them. The Koran, OT, NT etc. are simply books written by humans for humans.

Prophets were invented by ancient scribes typically to keep the uneducated masses in line. Today we call them fortune tellers.

Prophecies are also invalidated by the natural/God/Allah gifts of Free Will and Future.

"5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) alone."

Mohammed spent thirty days fasting in a hot cave before his first contact with Allah aka God etc. via a "pretty wingy thingy". Common sense demands a neuron deletion of #5. #5 is also the major source of Islamic violence i.e. turning Mohammed's "fast, hunger-driven" hallucinations into horrible reality for unbelievers.

Accept these five "cleansers" and we guarantee a complete recovery from your orthodox Islamic ways!!!!

CCNL:

I verify your 5 point question, that yes we as muslims believe in these point with slit difference of understanding. And with clear understanding and not as just blind faith.

To put it in simple way, if after careful study of Quran, we find and understand that, almost more than 80% of it is verifying and 100% correctly telling about future and universe and its life forms so far. And giving correct information which is evaluated throw all classical ways of intelligence,e.g., scientific or intellectual etc.
Then our intelligent nature tells us that rest of 20% or less is also correct, may be beyond our limited level of comprehension.

It is not contradicting any natural fact or logic unlike other devine books in present form at present so called advance age.

For further explanation you can ref. to my Posts:
- Proof of God (Scientific Evidence)
And other posts and sites I refered in below posts.

Interpretation, of the varieties of religious scriptures, being to one's pleasing, influenced by the period of history, which dependent on the various stages in human development, material as spiritual, yet, dispite faith's, belief's, idea's, all which differ, humanity having one true link, an common union, that unite all, LOVE. A bond never to be broken, one can lose land, life, home, wealth, robbed of justice, denied freedom. Yet, a beacon of light, ever, our LOVE... .. .

Calling yet again:

To all certified Muslims out there, please read the following supposed tenets/requirements of Islam and verify them for us. Thank you!! We thought they were basic requirements for all Muslims to believe. Maybe Not!!!

1. Belief in Allah??

2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence??

3. To believe in the existence of angels??

4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore??

5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) alone??

ref: The 77 Branches of Islamic "faith" a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi.

And Victoria, The Jihadist and Mischka, no one is attacking or picking on you because of your gender. If you check, the three of you make substantially more comments than male Muslims so you of course get more questions and commentary. Actually your former sister Muslim, Ayaan Hirsi Ali still holds the record for comments and questions basically because of her book, Infidel. The summary of said book explains why:

"Thus begins the extraordinary story of a woman born into a family of desert nomads, circumcised as a child, educated by radical imams in Kenya and Saudi Arabia, taught to believe that if she uncovered her hair, terrible tragedies would ensue. It's a story that, with a few different twists, really could have led to a wretched life and a lonely death, as her grandmother warned. But instead, Hirsi Ali escaped -- and transformed herself into an internationally renowned spokeswoman for the rights of Muslim women."

ref: Washington Post book review.

And I trust you admire and thank this courageous woman!!!!

Anonymous:

You are asking good questions to M, which seems difficult to answer. But believe me SATISFACTORY answers are there. I hope M will manage to do so. If still you are not satisfied you can go to

WWW.Islamtomorrow.com ( Mr. Yousaf Astiss)
Or search Peace TV (Dr. Zakir Naik links)
Or Search for Mr. Dedaad Islamic dahva links
Or Search for Mr. Abdul Rahim Green from U.K. link

And ask them any question that bothers you regarding Islam.
YOU WILL GET AN ANSWERE UNLIKE OTHERS!!!

CCNL :

Though in annoying way but you are asking questions.

I have explanned you muslim position about women with on record statistics of world wide Muslim male relations compare to western situation with the hint of your unjust laws and there social impact, comparing with muslim laws and practice and the positive concept behind them. As you can refer below my 3 mails regarding it.

For the rest of your questions in nutshell read my posts in "Science and Religion" in which I try to address again Muslim point of view.

My Posts subjects are:

-Proof of Godd (Scientific Evidence)
-Jesus (A.S) In Islam (according to Muslims)
- Holy Bible (In the light of Quran)

In above posts I humbly tried to evaluate scriptures logically keeping the scientific approach.

Remember in your more than 73 Catholic versions of Bible and in all other Bible versions. It is no where written that Jesus (PBUH) every said, worship me Or I am God.

M-

Thanks for your response.

"These acts may be committed by people who call themselves Muslims but who violate all the essential principles of Islam."

You've referenced the greater Jihad. Please explain the lesser Jihad.

Please give a definition for- hirabah.

In so many countries Muslim against Muslim violence is raging. Why?

"Islam does not limit me from ANYTHING"

Would you have the same freedom in the countries now under Islamic law?

Are you unlimited because you are living in a free society or because you are a Muslim woman?

Do all other American women live in freedom?

Do all other Muslim women live in freedom?

To all certified Muslims out there, please read the following supposedly tenets/requirements of Islam and verify them for us. Thank you!! We thought they were basic requirements for all Muslims to believe. Maybe Not!!!

1. Belief in Allah??

2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence??

3. To believe in the existence of angels??

4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore??

5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) alone??

ref: The 77 Branches of Islamic "faith" a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi.

And Victoria, The Jihadist and Mischka, no one is attacking or picking on you because of your gender. If you check, the three of you make substantially more comments than male Muslims so you of course get more questions and commentary. Actually your former sister Muslim, Ayaan Hirsi Ali still holds the record for comments and questions basically because of her book, Infidel. The summary of said book explains why:

"Thus begins the extraordinary story of a woman born into a family of desert nomads, circumcised as a child, educated by radical imams in Kenya and Saudi Arabia, taught to believe that if she uncovered her hair, terrible tragedies would ensue. It's a story that, with a few different twists, really could have led to a wretched life and a lonely death, as her grandmother warned. But instead, Hirsi Ali escaped -- and transformed herself into an internationally renowned spokeswoman for the rights of Muslim women."

And I trust you admire and thank this courageous woman!!!!

Anonymous -

"Please share a few verses from the Koran that support what you've shared"

"...attacking a religious group (fitnah) is more severe then plain attack" (2:190-193)

"There should be no coercion in religion" (Qur'an 22:40)

"And O Muhammad strive (Jahadu) hard with the Qur'an, the great striving" (25:52)
In connection with this verse, Maulana Wahiuddin states "The Qur'an is a book, not a gun or a sword". Striving with the Qur'an means engaging in a peaceful, sprititual, moral struggle to overcome one's individual instincts and engage in a peaceful dialogue, discussion and discourse in relation to the transformation of mind and spirit. Jihad is an inner struggle.

Jihad is a core concept in the Qur'an derived from the word Jahadu meaning 'to strive' or 'make an effort' or 'struggle'. The highest form of Jihad means overcoming one's shortcomings or weaknesses.

No act of aggression is permissible. "And fight in the way of God who attack YOU, but transgress NOT, God loves not the aggressor" (2:190)

If Muslims are the aggressors - "And if two among the believers should fight, then make settlement between the two. But if one of them oppresses the other then against the one that oppresses..." (49:9)

"reconciliation is best" (2:128)

Military action can under no circumstances be invoked on the grounds of enmity. "Good and evil are not alike. Requite evil with what is best. Then truly he between whom and you there was enmity, will become your dearest friend" (41:34)

"For tumult and oppression is worse then slaughter" (2:191)

"And if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people" (5:32)

This is in regards to the struggle within Muslims "And hold fast all together, by the rope which God (stretches out for you) and be not divided among yourselves" (3:103)

Finally - "Peace! a world (of salutation) from the Lord Most Merciful!" (36:58)

Belligerent terminology such as "Islamic terrorism" and now "Islamic fascism" coined by politicians and popularised by media show nothing but contempt for Islam as a religion. These acts may be committed by people who call themselves Muslims but who violate all the essential principles of Islam. Quoting texts randomly and out of context is not merely inaccurate but counter-productive.

(More upon request)

All religions have a share in texts that address aggression.

"Don't you think that is oppressive and demeaning?"

Punishing a woman is demeaning - of course! However, Islam does not call for that.

"Do you think that forcing every woman to "cover her hair" (not drive, etc) is oppressive and demeaning"

She should not be forced to cover her hair OR not be allowed to drive. I agree that the above is oppressive and demeaning. Again, Islam does not limit me from ANYTHING. Even if I live in America, the rules of my life are set according to Islam. I may have a Happy Meal - but it better not have any pork in it. I may get all dolled up for a dinner date with my husband - but I wont wear a mini skirt or a halter top. I may have my entire family over for a reunion in my home - but I will keep my head covered in the presence of men who are not related to me by blood.

Islam is my guide and it gives me everything I need.

Thanks again. Please share a few verses from the Koran that support what you've shared.

Also, Please answer the two questions you missed a few posts back-

"No choice. You have to or you are punished. Don't you think that is oppressive and demeaning?"

Do you think that forcing every woman to "cover her hair" (not drive, etc) is oppressive and demeaning?

You have seen the video. Are these women wrong to seek freedom of choice?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INEnNjgRa1U

"How does your Koran tell you to respond?"

Qur'an is the same way - all my life I have been told never to respond with violence. I have read it a hundreds of times...with translation in English.

"What advice do you receive from your Islamic leaders?"

My Islamic leaders tell me to educate myself in every way possible and approach each situation with knowledge and patience rather then violence. I have never been instructed by my teachers to be aggressive or intolerant of others.

I hope this answers your questions.

"How does your Koran tell you to respond?"

Qur'an is the same way - all my life I have been told never to respond with violence. I have read it a hundreds of times...with translation in English.

"What advice do you receive from your Islamic leaders?"

My Islamic leaders tell me to educate myself in every way possible and approach each situation with knowledge and patience rather then violence. I have never been instructed by my teachers to be aggressive or intolerant of others.

I hope this answers your questions.

Three atheists walk into a forest and soon find a pair of tracks. The first atheist says, 'I think they're deer tracks.' The second atheist says, 'No, I think they're bear tracks.' The third atheist says, 'You're both wrong! They're bird tracks!' Then they got hit by a train.

Thanks for answering one of my questions. Please answer the other two.

"In such cases, would you like us to smile and say "Thank You"?"

What would Mohammed do?

My Prophet (pbuh) would definitely not fight back. He would try to talk to people and see if he could reason with them.

How does your Koran tell you to respond?

What advice do you receive from your Islamic leaders?

CCNL - I just noticed something

You ACTUALLY tried in your own little way to address the men this time! That must have been scary. Now, when they answer you...try to reply to them as well. Dont be scared now...its going to be alright.

We are proud of you.

CCNL -

You are being ignored now...go away.

Anonymous - My Prophet (pbuh) would definitely not fight back. He would try to talk to people and see if he could reason with them.

Here is the thing: I have not said that I hate Christians, Hindus, Jews, etc. I have friends from all sorts of religions and to hate their faith is to hate a part of them. I dont insult their holy books, their Prophets or their teachings. Furthermore, I dont want to insult or hate them.

I ask them from time to time the significance of certain things they dont mind explaining to me...like Ash Wednesday for instance. I had no idea why people were walking around with black marks on their foreheads until I asked my friend and he explained it.

Here, you have attack over attack and it doesnt stop. Like my friend Victoria said on a different post: you have an opportunity here to ask Muslims first hand any questions you may have and gain knowledge. Why waste a chance like this by arguing and creating even more misunderstandings? How many times will you get to do this?

You know what would be even better? If we could come to some sort of understanding or tolerance between us as a result of these blogs.

"In such cases, would you like us to smile and say "Thank You"?"

What would Mohammed do? How does your Koran tell you to respond? What advice do you receive from your Islamic leaders?

Please share.

All you certified male Muslims out there, please read the following supposedly tenets/requirements of Islam and verify them for us. Thank you!!

1. Belief in Allah??

2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence??

3. To believe in the existence of angels??

4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore??

5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) alone??

ref: The 77 Branches of Islamic "faith" a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi.

All you certified male Muslims out there, please read the following supposedly tenets/requirements of Islam and verify them for us. Thank you!!

1. Belief in Allah??

2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence??

3. To believe in the existence of angels??

4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore??

5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) alone??

ref: The 77 Branches of Islamic "faith" a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi.

I read:

"If you criticise Islam- "I'm offended" "that's racist" If you give examples "that's not Islam" "what about America's faults". If you ask a pointed question- "I don't understand what your saying" "Islam is perfect" "Islam means peace" Then they lauch into spewing insults and hatred."

This is interesting...have you read these blogs? How many people do you see here that are merely curious or looking for answers? Not one. You see only people who are venting their hatred for Muslims.

In such cases, would you like us to smile and say "Thank You"?

I really dont think so.

How could any person ask this question and still call himself Christian? Did Jesus say to what degree our forgiveness should be tempered? Did he say love your enemies, but only if they're not too crazy? And how do we even judge who is our enemy to begin with?

"I say to you remove the speck from your own eye before you try to remove the rod from your brother's eye"

A man kills your family in front of you. Years later he is caught and brought to trial. At the hearing he pleads guilty and shows no remorse for his actions. He even looks you in the eye and says his only regret was leaving you alive. Does this man deserve your forgiveness? Depends on what you mean by forgiveness. Should his actions be excused? By no means. Of course not. But should you hold hate for him in your heart? No. Never. His fate is in the hands of others now. But ultimately his fate is in the hands of GOD. His soul is no longer your concern and you should not burden yourself with it.

As hard as that might be to accept it is the only way. Holding hate in your heart can be dangerous. Whether you perceive it as just or not. Hate pollutes and sickens the body worse than any drug.

"it is not what enters a man that corrupts him but what comes out"

If you have faith then you know this man will serve his penance in this life and the next. But eventually even GOD will forgive him. So too must you. you're no better than GOD are you?

anonymous:

most atheists believe all religions inspire mental conditions of varying degrees.

Ananymouse :

"mischka....Let those free of sin cast the first stone..." I guess that wouldnt be you.

Thats it...until you say something relevant...I am not going to address you.

Wanderer-

"Blood for blood"

That's not what I hear in my neighborhood since 911. I hear- "Manus haec inimica tyrannis ense petit placidam sub libertate quietam".

Anany-

All voices welcome and please enjoy speaking freely (while you can). Ignore the shreiking sharia hags. Their posts are baseless. I've only read here for a few days and they seem to hit the "Islam in America" talking points. If you criticise Islam- "I'm offended" "that's racist" If you give examples "that's not Islam" "what about America's faults". If you ask a pointed question- "I don't understand what your saying" "Islam is perfect" "Islam means peace" Then they lauch into spewing insults and hatred.

Nothing new. Boring repetition. I'm beginning to wonder- Is Islam a mental condition? Not all by any means, but so many Muslims seem to have lost touch with reality.

I find it strange that George W. Bush, who declared Jesus Christ to be his favorite philosopher, takes the attitude that we must annihilate our enemies and any and all who happen to be in the nearby vicinity, as well as any who might, perhaps someday, even think about taking a position that could be construed (by GWB) as being "enemy". But perhaps his interpretation of Jesus's ideas and teachings reads like a treatise from Project for a New American Century.

mischka....Let those free of sin cast the first stone... .. .

AnanyMOUSE!

"mischke....some husbands hug the dog and beat the wife..."

First of all - its MischkA - not MischkE.

Second - ANOTHER irrelevant post!

Stop your nonsense!

mischke....some husbands hug the dog and beat the wife... .. .

Ananymous -

Please tell me how on earth your post relates to what Lepidopteryx was trying to convey in her post.

You bypassed an entire paragraph of what she said and responded to a single word : pets ?

You make no sense ! ! ! !

LEPIDOPTERYX.....I am not an person whom favours animals in the home, of any description. They having there place in the wild, yet there being many people having great affection for animal., Whom love as care for, as attending there needs. It unfortunate the other side to that coin, be those whom be the cause of animals put through, as go through great suffering. Such wrong having brought my own view that animals not being in the home.If one wishes to adopt an child one must prove one's worth to the courts.As be to own or care for an animal one should also have to prove one's worth, before such allowed. Of course exceptions to animals in the home, as example guide dogs for the blind. Truth, being there an need being for far stricter laws which enforces, protection of animals. With regard to an earlier point on spiritual matters, I was reminded of an event where JESUS was surrounded by throngs of people.Yet he silenced the crowd saying, whom touched me, an elderly woman, then replied, I beleived in touching your garment, I would be saved, with such, Jesus, wept... ..

I strongly believe that forgiveness requires a certain level of forgetfulness; i.e., you must be prepared to forget the injury done to you, in order to truly forgive the other. Now, let's see how that applies to the atrocities of our current age.

Is it possible to forgive those responsible for 9/11? Everything in the collective American psyche screams "Blood for blood," but you have to remember that vengeance begets vengeance. Some of the ethnic groups in SW Asia have been nursing grudges with each other for decades, if not centuries (and it's not just restricted to SW Asia - look at Northern Ireland circa 1980).

It would take a great effort of collective will to say, "I will forego the vengeance I could have exacted for this, I will forget the injury you have done to me, and I shall forgive." Whether we, as a nation, have progressed far enough to be so civilized is a matter of conjecture.

CCNL -

You would get an answer from Victoria and I IF you wrote something worth responding to.

"Mischka and Victoria and especially Islamic males having one to four unbeaten or koranically- approved, beaten wives"

Again - old fart - I have to tell you repeatedly like a child - that Islam/Qur'an does not approve of wife beating. Its beginning to madden me now that you were even allowed within ten feet of other human beings. Dont they have a cage for you somewhere???

You talk to people in the most demeaning manner and expect them to actually engage in an intelligent discussion with you??? You throw the first stone and you expect others to smile at you? IF you were even the slightest bit interested in a discussion - you would ask and not attack. However, since you assume the above about Muslims - I cant help but assume that you are lonely, miserable, deteriorating and extremely bitter with your life.

Just because you are anti-Islam/Muslim does not mean that its a bad religion. It means your "neurons" have gone to la-la land.

p.s. - I dont know how to communicate with you because I dont speak "stupid".

Mischka and Victoria and especially Islamic males having one to four unbeaten or koranically- approved, beaten wives,

First, oops about the name change. Did not see that oddity.

And we still await you comments about the following tenets of Islam.

Again, are we in error about the listed parts of warmongering Islam's virtues/faith??

1. Belief in Allah??

2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence??

3. To believe in the existence of angels??

4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore??

5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) alone??

ref: The 77 Branches of Islamic "faith" a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi.

Is it possible that Imam Bayhaqi "twisted these Islamic tenets??????????

the Anonymous poster below Mischka is also Mischka...forgot to put my name on it.

To: 'Make sure you faithfully practice the ACM symptom alleviation methods' -

You said:

"Islamic males having one to four unbeaten or koranically-approved, beaten wives"

Hmmmm...I am a Muslim woman married to a Muslim man. He has never raised his voice at me - let alone hit me. My entire family is Muslim - I have never witnessed my father even touching my mother in a disrespectful manner.

I think you are misinterpreting Moody's post.

"BEAT YOUR WIFE APPLYING FORCE NOT MORE THEN TOOTH CLEANING STICK"

How much force can you possibly apply with miswak??? Think about it. It means - Islamically - you are not allowed to beat or physically harm your wife...ever. You can yell at her, stop sleeping with her, divorce her, etc. BUT you cannot physically abuse her.

Walaikum Assalam Victoria! I hope you are doing well! :-)

Anonymous -

"Also your post is very angry and disjointed. This is not a good example of Muslim women. You sound like a confused American."

She is not confused Anon - quite the opposite. There is nothing angry or disjointed about her posts - she listed facts and the blatant truth.

"Consider this sad story of violent oppression and ask yourself - who will help these women if we don't? U.S. should Condemn Saudis for punishing rape victim."

I agree with you! They should - why dont they? Islam is not the one to blame in this situation. Its the government of Saudi Arabia. Islam does not condemn innocent people to brutal punishment.

"This is beyond draconian. The Saudi judges might as well be cavemen. The young woman faces punishment for something we'd consider teenage folly. She was 19 at the time and alone with a former boyfriend in a car. For a woman to be alone with a man who is not a close relative is a crime in Saudi Arabia. The offense is called khilwa and is punishable for both men and women."

I cannot say what was done was right. I cannot defend them. I can say that Islam was not properly followed in this case. I can say that it was mishandled. The US SHOULD use their influence to make this an example of what should NOT be happening in SA.

Anan -

"We having two groupings of people...those whom born through sexual lust,such children in life having no spiritual basis, the majority tending to call themselves atheists, having an very low IQ, for them atheism, being the ideal as it's basis to beleive in nothing... Then there those children whom born from the union of love, where sexual union blessed by an third party, giving readings from the holy sriptures. The fruit of such holy bonding, being children of a high IQ, whom having depth in understanding as being rich in spiritual experience..."

What???!!! You just condemned a humungous amount of innnocent children to a general category of "dumb"! What is wrong with you??? Why are you even posting on this blog? Your sentences make no sense, you dont know how to write a line without sounding like you're looking in a dictionary the whole time. I dont know what part of the planet you are in - but you need help...pronto!

CCNL - I do not care how many times you change your name and post on here - do you realize you are being ignored old man? Do you realize you are losing steam now? If you are trying to accomplish something (God knows what) its not working. All of your "allegations" against Islam are twisted. None of it is true. Not a single one. Sorry old man - its time to put down the cane and get into your wheel chair.

"In terms of divine consistency, I do not think that anyone, anywhere, at any time, including Jesus, brings dead people back to life."

How sad that you do not believe in the devine nature of Jesus Christ.

We forgive you crazy religion-obsessed whackos for your legacy of coercion, death, destruction, sodomy, and rape.

You Christians, Muslims, and Jews talk forgiveness as if you haven't committed any type of atrocities upon others.

Pick up a history book and read it! Your hypocrisy makes me sick!

The various comments that God killed Jesus is hogwash! Where did you guys go to church? I have never heard that theology preached or taught! Just written about by shrewd people who are trying to sell books to people looking for excuses to not believe. The Truth, God BECAME Jesus and, as the Man Jesus, God willingly suffered terrible pain and died to simply say to each and every human being, See, I Forgive You! Then to top it off, God/Jesus triumphed over physical death by coming back to life, telling us that death is no longer to be feared! Thus, we can now live in the perfect freedom of loving God, Neighbor, and Self, without fear. Clearly, any human being can come to that last sentence without ever hearing of Jesus. It has been done in various other religions around the world, including some forms of American Indian religion. The truth all boils down to this (and the Bible supports this truth), each of us has the capacity to love and to hate. Love is the better way. That's the true Christian "Gospel". It's also the truth of many other relgions around the world. So to those of you who nay-say "Love Your Enimies", then you are clearly chosing hate over love. And I am sorry for you!

Anan:

And if you're assuming that children born to parents whose union isn't "blessed by an third party, giving readings from the holy sriptures" are somehow spiritually adrift idiots, think again.
I chose not to marry my daughter's dad. She is 17, highly intelligent (started taking college classes in high school), plays several musical instruments, volunteers in the community, builds sets, works crew/tech, and performs in community theatre, and holds down a job in order to pay for insurance and gas for her car, as well as the exopenses incurred by her pets and donations to various service organizations. She's compassionate, gentle, and generous.

Anan:

Not quite sure what your point is. Belief in a deity is not necessary in order to love a spouse or a child.
And love and lust aren't mutually exclusive. I love my husband dearly, and when I see him coming out of the shower, I feel lust for him as well.

We having two groupings of people...those whom born through sexual lust,such children in life having no spiritual basis, the majority tending to call themselves atheists, having an very low IQ, for them atheism, being the ideal as it's basis to beleive in nothing... Then there those children whom born from the union of love, where sexual union blessed by an third party, giving readings from the holy sriptures. The fruit of such holy bonding, being children of a high IQ, whom having depth in understanding as being rich in spiritual experience... .. .

Moody and Islamic males having one to four unbeaten or koranically-approved, beaten wives,

The stoning and butchering of Islamic Afghan women by the Taliban and the treatment of Islamic women in Saudi Arabia vitiates all of your commentary about how well Islamic women are treated.

Much of the treatment is the direct result of the koranic brainwashing male Islamics receive from a young age and continue to receive from Islamic all-male imams and clerics who still preach and practice the stone age koranic ways of the hallucinating, illiterate, womanizing, and warmongering of Mohammed.

I note yet again that famous quote with proper extension:

Until the koran is "deflawed", no one is safe especially Muslim women!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And one more thing!
You westernsers have a concept of women beating, THE WAY YOU BEAT YOURS.

In Islam it is the third stage of reprimanding process.
BEAT YOUR WIFE APPLYING FORCE NOT MORE THEN TOOTH CLEANING STICK (SIZE OF THOOTH BRUCH) AND NOT ON THE FACE, AS PER PROPHET(PBUH) HADITH.

Stage 1: Advise or discuss and try to convince, if find or see something improper or wrong.
Stage 2: Stop sleeping with your women to show your dislike.(This stage have hardly any impact if you both are not intimate and effectionate and loving to each other and already sleeping around, but have a great impact if you are intimate. And in this case you both suffer).
Stage 3: You can beat her with the allowed force as an extreme expression.
Stage 4: You can divorce her, if she donot correct herself
OR
she can take divorce if she feel she is unjustly treated.

And one more thing!
You westernsers have a concept of women beating, THE WAY YOU BEAT YOURS.

In Islam it is the third stage of reprimanding process.
BEAT YOUR WIFE APPLYING FORCE NOT MORE THEN TOOTH CLEANING STICK (SIZE OF THOOTH BRUCH) AND NOT ON THE FACE, AS PER PROPHET(PBUH) HADITH.

Stage 1: Advise or discuss and try to convince, if find or see something improper or wrong.
Stage 2: Stop sleeping with your women to show your dislike.(This stage have hardly any impact if you both are not intimate and effectionate and loving to each other and already sleeping around).
Stage 3: You can beat her with the aloud force as an extreme expression.
Stage 4: You can divorce her, if she donot correct herself
OR
she can take divorce if she feel she is unjustly treated.

Qur'an is the only devine book and non other that says: Marry only one woman. You can marry 3 to 4, if you can do justice, otherwise marry only one.

Less than 5% of total muslim population have more than one wife and less than 2% have more than 2 wives. More than 75% led there life with same one women, unless she died or get divorced or else.
Almost 100% get married, unless some odd reason.

Womens are more in number all over the world, it is a natural phenomenon.

Only in USA women are 78 million more, than there are more than 25 million gays. Your more than 80% jail population is male. There are millions of single mothers in USA. You add up your self.

Your national states tell on average your men have 8 womens before marriage, if they get married?? AFTER MARRIAGE NATIONAL AVERAGE IS DIFFERENT!!

Islam porvide you a respectful solution to make the woman THE QUEEN OF YOUR HOUSE. Instead of forcing them to become mistresses or lead adultarus life, by not having a chance of marriage.

Mischka and Victoria and especially Islamic males having one to four unbeaten or koranically- approved, beaten wives,

Again, are we in error about the listed parts of warmongering Islam's virtues/faith??

1. Belief in Allah,

2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence.

3. To believe in the existence of angels,

4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore.

5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) alone.

ref: The 77 Branches of Islamic "faith" a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi

I'm sorry I meant to say 2700 a day.

I'm sorry I meant to say 2700 a day.

Anonymus:

You are right it is ok in USA due to its culture and social practices that every 1 out of 2 womens get raped. every 32 seconds there is a women raped in USA, every 1 houre more than 2700 womens raped in USA. It is sitll happening around the corner. You seems very happy about it, but we are not!!

But one rare odd incidence in Saudi Arabia really bother the whole west. It is just a strict law that discourages adultary! Muslim women was punished because she was with her illegal mate and responsible to compromise her modesty. Men were also punished more severly.

YOu adultarers are really worried to liberate us. From what? our piece and security.

We see our womens first as caring mothers, then loving sisters and then wife. And give them due respect and regard and their right in every espect of life. Share with them responsibilities until they live.
And not just live selfishly with our illegal sex mates, who has to bore and raise childern her self, work and earn less her self, support , clean and cook her self in the name of freedom. And we are free as ever and leave them when ever we want.And leave the parent to die in oldage house.
Muslims show no flexibility to mutate the social environment which force women to become mistresses, mare object of lust and desire. We do not encourage them to take off thier cloths to survive.

Note: In Muslim world Marriages is not concidered as nightmare like in west or USA because of your ugly unjust interveening state laws, which discourages marriages and incourages adultary.
It is opposite in Muslim world.

Victoria in fact I did not read your entire post. You sound angry and deranged. I wouldn't waste my time. But please keep posting. Everyone here needs to see what a "logical", "peaceful" and "loving" person you are.

anonymous troll said-
"
I'm taking a wild quess. I believe you are a Muslim woman born in the USA. I believe you've never lived in an Islamic country."

duuuuh troll-
a wild guess?

or are you proving that you can read?

"and dont tell me about the freedoms of american women-
ive lived it firsthand and so did my mother and grandmother before her(who started working at 13) when im sure youre grandmothers were sittingat home taking care of your parents"

troll, if you couldnt figure it out from that and are still 'guessing' that i was born in america, well- i hold little hope for your analytical powers.

if you dont have an answer to a question put to you-

you give up the right to be reponded to with civility

you can babble all day- but you just dont have an answer= and that- is the bottom line

mischka- dont bother to feed the anonymous troll

troll- you couldnt answer my question
you must be a genius to "guess" that im an american muslim- since i say it every other post here

and my very post stated that im an american!
very perceptive 'guess'

pikey

Victoria-

I'm taking a wild quess. I believe you are a Muslim woman born in the USA. I believe you've never lived in an Islamic country.

Also your post is very angry and disjointed. This is not a good example of Muslim women. You sound like a confused American.

Mischka-

Consider this sad story of violent oppression and ask yourself- who will help these women if we don't?

U.S. should Condemn Saudis for punishing rape victim

The court ruling sounds like something out of the Dark Ages -- 200 lashes for a gang-rape victim. This was the headline last week out of Saudi Arabia.

In a shocking move, even by Saudi standards, the court increased the victim's punishment from 90 to 200 lashes after her lawyer tried to appeal her case and called attention to it in the media.

This is beyond draconian. The Saudi judges might as well be cavemen. The young woman faces punishment for something we'd consider teenage folly. She was 19 at the time and alone with a former boyfriend in a car. For a woman to be alone with a man who is not a close relative is a crime in Saudi Arabia. The offense is called khilwa and is punishable for both men and women.

However, more women than men are subjected to punishment, according to Amnesty International. Lashing is allowed under the penal code in Saudi Arabia, and the punishment is often meted out in public or at the entrance to a jail.

In this case, the couple were merely talking in a car when a group of men attacked them and raped them both. The male victim also was given 90 lashes as punishment. The rapists received 80 to 1,000 lashes each. Last week, the court increased their sentences to two to nine years imprisonment.

The only good news thus far is that the female victim, known as the "Girl from Qatif," has not yet suffered lashing. And shouldn't be punished.

It would be easy for us to dismiss this ruling as distant or backwards. But what happens in Saudi Arabia matters because the country is a major ally of the U.S. in the war on terror. We sell billions of dollars worth of arms to the Saudis in a lucrative exchange.

The State Department needs to condemn the Saudis' handling of the case. Being our ally doesn't buy our silence. This is an especially egregious case and one in which we can use our influence to defend the rights of women in Saudi Arabia and around the world.

http://www.suntimes.com/news/commentary/656905,CST-EDT-edit19b.article

Mischka, Mischka, Mischka, Mischka, and Victoria, Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,

Please note my recent responses to the Islamic male commentators, Eboo, Moody, Ahmed from Bahrain and all the male-only imams during Muslim week.

With respect to knowledge about Islam, we have our Five Step Deprogramming noted below. Are we in error about the listed parts of warmongering Islams virtues/faith??

Using "The 77 Branches of Islamic "faith" a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi as a starting point. In it, he explains the essential virtues that reflect true "faith" (iman) through related Qur’anic verses and Prophetic sayings." i.e. a nice summary of the Koran and Islamic beliefs.

"1. Belief in Allah"

"aka as God, Yahweh, Zeus, Jehovah, Mother Nature, etc." should be added to the your brainwashed neurons.

"2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence."

Evolution and the Big Bang or the "Gib Gnab" (when the universe starts to recycle) is more plausible and the "akas" for Allah should be included if you continue to be a "creationist".

"3. To believe in the existence of angels."

A major item for neuron deletion. Angels/devils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations, e.g. Hittites, to explain/define natural events, contacts with their gods, big birds, sudden winds, protectors during the dark nights, etc. No "pretty/ugly wingy thingies" ever visited or talked to Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or Joseph or Joe Smith. Today we would classify angels as fairies and "tinker bells". Modern devils are classified as the demons of the demented.

"4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore."

Another major item to delete. There are no books written in the spirit state of Heaven (if there is one) just as there are no angels to write/publish/distribute them. The Koran, OT, NT etc. are simply books written by humans for humans.

Prophets were invented by ancient scribes typically to keep the uneducated masses in line. Today we call them fortune tellers.

Prophecies are also invalidated by the natural/God/Allah gifts of Free Will and Future.

"5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) alone."

Mohammed spent thirty days fasting in a hot cave before his first contact with Allah aka God etc. via a "pretty wingy thingy". Common sense demands a neuron deletion of #5. #5 is also the major source of Islamic violence i.e. turning Mohammed's "fast, hunger-driven" hallucinations into horrible reality for unbelievers.

a salaamu alaikum mischka- welcome to the monkey house

ana(o)nymous- where on the planet is ths utopia for women where they are treated equally and respectfully?

and can we blame any religion, or should we blame misogynist men?

women only got the right to own property 87 scant years ago-
muslim women for 1470some years-

american women earn 71 cents on the dollar of the men- despite the overwhelming numbers of single parent households supported by women-

1 in 2 american women have been raped in america-
you dont believe it? look up the stats- (i dont do gruntwork for anonymous cowards-

domestic violence? dont get me started-

and dont tell me about the freedoms of american women-
ive lived it firsthand and so did my mother and grandmother before her(who started working at 13) when im sure youre grandmothers were sittingat home taking care of your parents

what suburban middle classed priviledged atmosphere do you breathe the rarefied air of equality in america?

what exactly is liberating about working full time, earning less than a man, and still coming home and feeding the family, cleaning the house doing the laundry washing the dishes and flopping into bed?

are you mental?

most of us cant afford maids- and most men just dont multitask yet-

maybe they think theyre 'helping' by taking a swipe at some dishes once a week- but in the real world- theres not alot of benefit to the unenviable position of the modern american mother-

a man may work from dusk til dawn but a womans work is never done still holds true

quit attacking a woman for the actions of some goofball men who even knows where

and yes, there were women in muslim countries (turkey, tunisia)who cannot have the choice to wear or not wear hijab- they cannot (well, not turkey for the past 5 years)

LIB- go pick on a MAN for once- your preoccupation with tryin gto 'direct' the females here is unwanted, and borderline very creepy sometimes.

pikeys

im not going to apologize or justify what hindus do to dalits- or what orthodox jewish people do to their women- or what evangelists do to homosexuals- or any thing

bring the level of conversation back up out of the backward cesspool of your own ignorance and prejudice and let the rest of us try to consider the finer issues of forgiveness, mans inhumanity to man- and the resolution of more powerful meaningful conversations

who cares what women do or do not wear?
and whose business is it but ours?

MISCHKA.....It be the heart of the conversation. Such ultimate the reason your being on Earth... .. .

"Do I think that covering our hair the way Islam wants us to is demeaning?"

M-

Once again, we've established you prefer covering your hair. You live in a free society and this is your choice.

I said-

"No choice. You have to or you are punished. Don't you think that is oppressive and demeaning?"

Do you think that forcing every woman to "cover her hair" (not drive, etc) is oppressive and demeaning?

You have seen the video. Are these women wrong to seek freedom of choice?

A Muslim rang the airport and asked, 'How long does it take to fly to London?' 'Just a minute, madam,' came the reply. Thanks,' said the Muslim and put the phone down.

Anonymous -

According to Islam - she is supposed to cover her hair in front of men that are not related to her by blood...husband, brothers and father.

If she does not, Islam does not serve 50 lashes to her. The Eastern cultures are more strict about these things. That is their flaw.

Islam does not limit women. Do I think that covering our hair the way Islam wants us to is demeaning? Absolutely not. Its not demeaning to cover yourself - its demeaning to uncover yourself.

Ananymous -

"MISCHKA...THAT WHICH CANNOT BE SPOKEN, CANNOT BE WRITTEN, ONLY EXPERIENCED, AN LOVE THAT BINDS FOR ALL ETERNITY..."

Where does this fit into the conversation??? How on earth does this make sense here???

MISCHKA...THAT WHICH CANNOT BE SPOKEN, CANNOT BE WRITTEN, ONLY EXPERIENCED, AN LOVE THAT BINDS FOR ALL ETERNITY... .. .

M-

Once again, you wear your hijab in a free secular society. You are free to wear what you want. How would you like to live in an Islamic society where you cannot drive and cannot leave your home without first completely covering yourself and having a relative accompany you. What if in your own home- you have to completely cover yourself if your male relatives are in the room. No choice. You have to or you are punished. Don't you think that is oppressive and demeaning?

Ananymous

What truth? Please do tell me of this truth that you have been enlightened to O Miserable One?

I would love to tax my brain if you gave me something substantial to tax it with.

Repeating my words is a joke. You have not said a single thing worth addressing.

When you decide to say something that merits a response - I will respond.

MISCHKA....YOU HAVE FALLEN INTO AN BAD HABIT OF SEEING WHAT YOU WANT TO SEE...IN OTHER WORDS,TO MAKE ILLUSION REALITY,SUCH REQUIRING NO TAXING OF THE BRAIN CELLS, ONE JUST DISREGARDS TRUTH.

Ananymous

What I wrote is true. People out there are NOT educated on Islam and what position women really have.

The scarf is probably the most misunderstood. The purpose behind the scarf is not to oppress women or restrict them...it is to liberate them. From what? From having to use their bodies to get what they want. People take a hijab wearing woman even more seriously then one that doesnt. Professionally, I have more people who respect me for my mind when I wear hijab. They listen when I speak. I am equal to a man and no one second guesses me. When I didnt - a while back - it was the exact opposite. This is not oppression - its liberation from having to please anyone else except the man I married.

Islam is not the problem - it is lack of education, poverty, etc.

Anonymous -

"While you enjoy freedom-you should speak out and support your unfortunate sisters who live in oppressive "culture""

Actually, I do. I dont "speak" out but I do what I can to help. You are right when you say that I enjoy certain freedoms here that many out there dont. That is why I try to help in whatever way I can. We have organizations here who assist women in the states and even abroad and I try to volunteer as much as possible.

CCNL -

Repeating my name does not do anything. I just imagine some old guy in a hospital bed shaking his with a tube in his nose.

The Qur'an is not flawed - its the people who have chosen to interpret it in a way that suits their purpose.

Hey Ananymous!

Its actually ANONYMOUS...

MISCHKA.....>>>>>> ISLAM GIVES WOMEN MORE RIGHTS AND FREEDOM THAN THE AVERAGE PERSON KNOWS. <<<<<< ?????? ?????? ??????

Mischka:

"I dont think that Islam has anything to do with the oppression. Islam gives women more rights and freedom then the average person knows."

I don't understand how you can say that. What Islamic culture/society/community lives in peace and freedom for its women? The countries under Islamic Shari'ah Law are the worst offenders. I will guess you are a Muslim woman born and raised in the USA. The freedom you enjoy comes from your constitution and America's secular culture/society/community. As Islam gains a political foothold in America the restrictions will begin. While you enjoy freedom-you should speak out and support your unfortunate sisters who live in oppressive "culture".

mischka, mischka,mischka,

Short and to the point:

Until the koran is "deflawed", no one is safe.

Forgiveness is one of God's qualities. For a human to forgive, he must have the means to not forgive and avenges himself. Christians say that they might forgive others because Jesus said so. Yet. they never do (look around you!). On the contrary, they committed atrocities all over the world, right from the get go of christianity, through the crusader compaign and till now in Iraq. Nothing comes out of all the on faith commentators but hot air! Go ahead, play the role of the innocents and that of the saviours of humanity. Go ahead, insenuate that everyone else is a sinner or a terorist. How do you sleep at night is beyond me!

Jasmine -

"It is a very revealing look at the oppression of women in Islam."

I dont think that Islam has anything to do with the oppression. Islam gives women more rights and freedom then the average person knows. Women are oppressed no matter what country you go to. Its not the religion that needs to reform, its the women themselves. They need to realize there is a way out and take it.

What you are referring to is the culture. Culture and religion are two very different things.

An example would be: weddings. Religiously, the nikah (marriage ceremony) is all you need. However, Muslims, Hindus, etc from the South Asian region share wedding rituals and traditions...like the traditional red wedding garb. That is not religious. That is cultural.

CCNL ignorantly writes:

"I would too if one could trust Muslims. These three women cannot come to grips with the flaws of their religion making them unfortunately, very dangerous. Who knows, they might be supporters of OBL."

I can always depend on you to make me laugh CCNL. i think it sounds more like you are the supporter of OBL then us. It seems as if you are so bent on convincing yourself and others that Muslims are bad...it makes one think. What is he hiding? I have said repeatedly on these posts that I dont support any violence in the name of religion...at all. Have you lost your bifocals? Are you losing it? You dont understand the true nature of Islam - how would you be able to make attacks on it? How?

CCNL - do us all a favor. Check into a nursing home. I know that bigotry was pretty big back in your day but it doesnt look nice anymore.

The other side of "We are the only ones".

"If the count of planets in our solar system is not unusual, then there are more planets in the universe than the sum of all sounds and words ever uttered by every human who has ever lived. To declare that Earth must be the only planet in the cosmos with life would be inexcusably egocentric of us."

http://www.astrobio.net/news/article506.html

Forgiving our enemies is not easy and loving them is even harder. Both these feats come with progressive spiritual evolution. The first stage of forgiveness involves spiritual muscles and the second stage involves the power of the soul.

Today, religious fanatics have lost sight of the true meaning of religion and the nature of spiritual progress religious practices are supposed to impart. Just as physical and mental exercises lead to physical strength and mental sharpness, true religious practices are supposed to lead to spiritual strength. But what is spiritual strength—can such strength be measured by one's capacity to memorize religious texts or by the strictness with which one adheres to a prescribed set of rules and rituals? Not at all, for one may dot all the i’s and cross all the ts in following rituals but still be spinning one’s wheels in the rut of narrow-mindedness.

The litmus test of any spiritual path is the extent to which one is able to expand his love and compassion towards those who do not belong to his faith, not merely to those who do. Loving one’s own kind hardly involves an act of spiritual strength –it is merely a testament to our humanity. However, the capacity to love others outside that familiar ambit amounts to a test of spiritual progress. And we have to go a long way on that road less traveled, along that razor’s edge to finally be able to actually love our enemies.

We should forgive because it's good to forgive, but I believe that when you forgive though you are not requiring payback, you still acknowledge that what they did was wrong and was hurtful. In my experiences and in the testimonies I've heard from other people who have forgiven their rapers, and murderers of family members etc.. Jesus can heal hearts and remove the pain out of memories.

The Bible says: "love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and [to] the evil." (Luke 6:25)

and

"Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good." (Letter to Romans 12:21)

I know that it takes real help from God to forgive people that have hurt you or your loved ones and more grace to actually "Love your enemies" when they are still your enemy in the present tense, and may still want to hurt you or your family. The only way I know to really forgive, and not hold anything against another person is to ask God for the divine grace to forgive. It may take time but I can and have loved my enemies. Also haven't we hurt others too? And we're in need of it ourselves so we should give it out as well.

Also while human beings are sinners who disrespect, ignore, offend & fight against God in many ways, and while we ignore or hurt others, Jesus Christ gave up His life for us & was ressurected so that we can have forgiveness and a new life with a relationship with God. So if God Who could have justly condemned us, gave up His life and He suffered to help people who were/are antagonistic against Him (and the cost was high) then if we strive to reach the highest good, then we should try to forgive. Hopefully, and prayerfully that person will come to know God personally and change, or if not, God will justly repay them. But we are to be actively loving everyone as He is, and (for the believers and followers of Christ) as He enables us to be.

(SORRY 4 the long post)

There being much need for change in the Islamic world, religious teaching being to extreme, gulf between nations so great, we have come close to committing destruction where numbers killed defy all belief. It better that changes gradual over an period where all benefit, lesser the dispute towards such change in attitudes.However, such changes having been delayed so long, a gradual progress no longer the option, but change now being the imperative.With christianity there has been gradual change in attitude, the extremists held to account,not perfect but acceptable, such be with Islam, where extreme religious teaching, those preaching such being brought to account. This possible with joint co-operation, between all nations, all people's. The Islamic world, as all of Muslim faith, should not be left to feel, that they remaining in a state, of ever under the constant threat of attack.

Forgiveness is simply leaving room for the possibility that you have misjudged someone, and for the possibility that they can change or have changed. It is essential to a reasonable reaction to bad behavior. Forgiveness is part of true compassion for someone who has committed a wrong and their victims. To take those actions that are necessary to avoid further wrongs, and to create the possibility of change are the essence of compassion. Treating someone badly just because they have been bad doesn't solve any problems, and creates the likelihood that the "bad" person or their friends, family and sympathizers will become bitter and perpetuate the bad behavior. Even worse is an action which causes misery among those not responsible for a wrong just to punish a wrongdoer. That risks creating justification for joining in bad behavoir.

YANGPU6 said:
“Scientists and theologians alike conclude that the universe is so well constructed, and the chances of such a universe happening at all (after all, it came from a cosmic vacuum), are so, so incredibly slim, that it is only academically fair to state the obvious. The obvious being that the cosmos must have been designed. The scientists say no more or less than this; the theologians say more.
The problem appears to be that the conclusion is disliked.”
Agreeing with his comment I would like to further add:
It is human nature that, we are always thankful and respectful to the ones who do us any favor even the smallest one.
We are thankful and respectful to our parents, friends, providers, employers, people who are genuinely helpful to us in any period of our life time. And we tend not to forget those who do any favor or provide any help to us. Infect we feel certain level of warmth and affection towards them, and even obey them if justly required. In certain favors we feel as if even we unconditionally owe them.
This is our NATURAL REACTION!

Some how even after REALISING that there is some Creating Force behind the whole creation. Who provided us INFINITE comforts and favors, we failed to recognize that we owe ONLY to Him our sincere and humble thanks to our Sustainer and Provider.

By finding faults in our self made concepts and religions, long ago, we have given up hope in truly believing in any thing and carried away by our lust ant greed.
By not taking responsibility it doesn’t go away.

Responsibility say we should whole heartedly search for the truth, seek knowledge even we have to go to the far end of the world, e.g. China. And just don’t make judgments depending upon our already proven wrong preconceived ideas. And if we hear or find something, we should evaluate it by its standards and given meanings. And not against our self conceived ones, depending upon our individual good or bad experience or knowledge.

Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,

Ring-a-ling, the phone is ringing.

"Hello, this is Mohammed, the hallucinating, warmongering, illiterate, womanizing Arab calling from Hell. Please spread the word, I am so very sorry for all the sadness, terror, torture and bloodshed I have caused. I beg your forgiveness!!!!!"

A loud voice is heard from above.

"No way in Hell !!!!"

how very bored are YOU lib?

youre not even trying anymore- its like youre just phoning them in these days

:)

how very bored are YOU lib?

jasmine- many WOMEN are violently oppressed- i thinks its a much larger issue than simply pawning it off to a religion

thanks little ole' for the kind words

Viejita del oeste,

You noted:

"As a Catholic I belong to a faith which officially devalues the contributions of its female adherents. In that spirit, I would like to commend Pamela Taylor, Victoria, Jihadist and all the other strong Muslim women who appear on this site for their efforts to bring their own faith community better into line with the wishes of Allah."

I would too if one could trust Muslims. These three women cannot come to grips with the flaws of their religion making them unfortunately, very dangerous. Who knows, they might be supporters of OBL.

Hmmm, OBL and the Iranian imams? More followers of the hallucinating Mohammed!!! I gave up following hallucinating "godly hominids" years ago.

With respect to my Catholic sisters:

Holy Orders/priesthood is relevant but not complete without access by females and married members

With respect our Catholic out-of-date, Rite of Reconciliation: An act of contrition with repentance and life style changes by anyone of any faith or even no faith should be sufficient for soul cleansing.

Passages like John 20:23 also do not pass historical review with respect to being said by the historic Jesus.

http://books.google.com/books?id=AsPHR4-7Wc8C&pg=PA444&lpg=PA444&dq=%22place+of+life%22+%22the+historical+jesus%22+crossan&source=web&ots=8mVx_1M6g4&sig=XFqT8S1coAT18xq8Qwt1vMcMjW0

Jesus forgave from the cross; Father forgive them for they know not what they do. But he also said, "You will not see me again until you say 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'" I take it from this that we are to forgive, which I interpret to mean we are not to avenge our hurt, but in the future we are entirely free to ignore those who have hurt us. After all Jesus did not come back to visit Caiaphas and his crew after his resurrection.

Personally I have had many people hurt me and I just simply walk away from them. I seek no revenge nor would I ever want any harm to come to them. But I will not clutter my life with those who inflict such harm. I am quite content with the idea that God loves me--and that I am to love others, even my enemies. But that makes the larger question: What does love mean? Perhaps Micha has the best answer: "You have been told, O man, what is good, and what the Lord requires of you: Only to do the right and to love goodness, and to walk humbly with Your God." That is enough for me.

Jesus forgave from the cross; Father forgive them for they know not what they do. But he also said, "You will not see me again until you say 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'" I take it from this that we are to forgive, which I interpret to mean we are not to avenge our hurt, but in the future we are entirely free to ignore those who have hurt us. After all Jesus did not come back to visit Caiaphas and his crew after his resurrection.

Personally I have had many people hurt me and I just simply walk away from them. I seek no revenge nor would I ever want any harm to come to them. But I will not clutter my life with those who inflict such harm. I am quite content with the idea that God loves me--and that I am to love others, even my enemies. But that makes the larger question: What does love mean? Perhaps Micha has the best answer: "You have been told, O man, what is good, and what the Lord requires of you: Only to do the right and to love goodness, and to walk humbly with Your God." That is enough for me.

Of course a good forgiving nature, when wronged shows an depth of understanding, mature in ways of the spiritual..... However one cannot escape true judgement, one's spiritual account taken life to life, where actions have a plus as minus effect on one's account, opening as closing the gateway to the spiritual, giving, imparting, knowledge unto all understanding,thus the enabled senses taken to their peak. In time such the expected, planned intention, for all humanity. Hence, caution be wise in one's actions. Unforgivness, rare cases, wherupon an soul, having been done great wrong, will seek justice, (((revenge))) another time, in another life . .. ... FRIGHTNING ... .. .

As a Catholic I belong to a faith which officially devalues the contributions of its female adherents. In that spirit, I would like to commend Pamela Taylor, Victoria, Jihadist and all the other strong Muslim women who appear on this site for their efforts to bring their own faith community better into line with the wishes of Allah. It is not necessary to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I for one will not let Benedict XVI take my faith traditions away from me. Why should we be asked to abandon the truths that comfort us just because a narrow-minded group of frightened men desire to sidetrack the holy message for their own political purposes?

Concerned, as usual you are conflating the religious with the political. In that you are in good company with Osama Bin Laden and the Iranian mullahs.

BTW I think some of you misunderstand what transpires in a Catholic confessional, but that's a different subject.

Many Muslim women are violently oppressed. When we help them overcome -their suffering will end and they will be free to forgive.

WARNING: This You Tube is very graphic. It is a very revealing look at the oppression of women in Islam. Please use wisdom in deciding to view:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INEnNjgRa1U

skeptimal- yes, absolutely, it would be the grossest hypocrisy and clearly invalid to have an opinion about it otherwise.

when it comes to myself, i dont want to dwell on drama. (possibly it is one of the motivations for my otherwise dramtaic outbursts when it comes to others, though.)

3 people known to me- 2 unknown, different experiences

all formative to my current and inflexible contention of absolute unconditional non-qualified forgiveness
peace

Victoria said: "i have forgiven my torturers, and forgotten the harm and the torturers of those ive loved (this, did involve personal confrontation)"

Is this literally true? Have you been physically tortured? May I ask by whom?

These are sincere questions because I'm interested, not because I'm setting up for a snide comeback. I couldn't read your post and not ask.

Moody, Moody, Moody,

Nice ID!! And I guess it fits i.e. Subject to periods of depression; sulky. The Three B Syndrome will do that to you.

With respect to Saddam and his war with Iran, see for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Iraq_War for a complete and in-depth review. It appears national pride overrode the centuries-old Shiite/Sunni blood feud. And what side of the feud is Moody on?

And whose military protects/freed the Muslims in Bosnia, Kosovo and Kuwait??

Israel should stay within the borders of the UN 1948 accords that formed the State of Israel. The walls currently being built to separate the combatants should be built on these borders. Jerusalem should be made into a international city under the control of the UN. The vast oil wealth being accumulated by Kuwait, Iran and Saudi Arabia should be used to aid the Palestinians in recovery and education. Doing these three things should finally end this significantly stupid conflict since the flaws in the religions of both parties vitiates any claims to any land or god preference.

Back on topic:

Maybe Mohammed will return someday and beg our absolute forgiveness for the terror and torture his hallucinations have caused.

CCNL:

All you need to know is that, go and try to see your own face in the mirror before and after every b.s. of your mouth. You will see a difference. Which i doubt you ever brave enough to try.
You don't need to introduce your self, which you never did, you sneaky chump!

Allah says: "Forgive others, don't you want to be forgiven".

I would like to add to Samuel T. Lloyd III, Dean, Washington National Cathedral comments.

In Iraq there was an American groomed and raised tyrant Ruler Saddam. But there was no civil war between Iraqi sunni and shia's, even while Saddam was attacking Shia Iran for almost whole decade to please his master USA before American destruction and accupation of Iraq. It is evil Americans gift to Iraqis. Fueling the hatred with all MEANS between muslims and keeping the fuel and paying back in form of destruction.

Israel is an oppressive occupying force supported by its dady USA. Daily killing of stone throwing infant enemies becoming sucide teenagers hopeless from life , grown up before time through their daily brutal reality of life. Media is filled with Israely bloody trail and non compliance to any resolution. Some how still Israel is sweet hearts of the civilized west. Question is are they really Civilized?

Bosnia is an other example of so called civilized race in form of only Muslim ethenic cleansing.

Your present and history only goes in one and same direction....every where in the world. Even with your own selves....self destructive!!!

Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,

Maybe Mohammed will return someday and beg our absolute forgiveness for the terror and torture he has caused.

i know absolute forgiveness is where you have to end up eventually, spiritually.

it may take years of effort
it is something you do quietly, and it has to be unconditional

and it doesnt require any remorse from the perpertrator, or even contact

i have forgiven my torturers, and forgotten the harm and the torturers of those ive loved (this, did involve personal confrontation)
it doesnt mean i develop a foolish anemia and lose wisdom

its also shallow and pointless to forgive people you dont know personally for things that you didnt experience

you can refrain from judging them-

its not qualified and conditional

no person has the ability to convince me of any neccesity of vengeance
its been tried and it is not what find in my deepest heart

and eventually- for it to be forgotten truly-
you have to wish for your torturer to find some light- to find your way through the initial impulses to hurt back-

i dont wish their karma to punish them, i dont wish the god to punish them

they have already punished themselves enough

i have encountered incredible opposition to this
practice- it is very strange -

thats my perspective and life-

it is my strength and no attack will affect it

even our very thoughts have some small will to manifest into physical reality
peace

Lepid,

Thanks for the Namaste shout out. I do happen to remember that salutation from my yoga days. And may God bless you in the richness and fullness of His love.

I am going to try to actually stop with this thread as I think I am now just doing an annoying -get the last word in- thing. Hope to hear from you perhaps responding to another article.

JC:
"The problem I have with believing in Karma, is that it still places things in my hands. I believe that my soul is in better hands if it is in the hands of He who created my soul."

We're not as different as you think. Because I believe that the Universe and I are co-creators of my soul, Karma does put it in the hands of the one who created it.
And I'm just not comfortable with the idea of putting something as important as my soul in ANYBODY ele's hands. But that may be just me.

Namaste, JC.
(Loose translation - The Divine in me honors and blesses the Divine in you.)

Can We Forgive our Torturers?

combining the last two posts.

If our torturers show remorse, many would say we have to.

What do you wise people think?

Lepid, (last paragraphs respond to Joet)

First of all let me say that I perceive you to be a strong and courageous woman. It is evident that you have come through something incredibly difficult and have managed to come through it in a healthy way. I wish for you an easier road in the future than the one in the past has been for you. I applaud you for speaking openly about your experience, it is a brave and courageous thing.

I like you believe that after this life our actions must be accounted for. I differ with you on the fact that such accounting will be handled through the balancing of Karma however. The problem I have with believing in Karma, is that it still places things in my hands. I believe that my soul is in better hands if it is in the hands of He who created my soul.

Joet, I am not Catholic and I probably view the practice of confession to a priest as absurd as you do. Mainly because in the covenant established by Christ the individual has the ability to directly confess to God the Father as opposed to having to go through a priest. In Judaism there was a need for a priest to offer sacrifices once a year in the Holy of Holies to atone for the sins of the people In fact I don't know what Jews teach on the atoning of sins in the present day now that there no longer is a Temple or high priests.

The Christians atoning sacrifice has already been offered in the form of Christ should the individual choose to believe and trust in that sacrifice. The Bible teaches the Christian that we are to live a balanced life of joy for what one has gained through Christ while at the same time keeping a healthy and somber retrospect for the hopeless condition that he or she has been snatched from.

Mischka, Mischka, Mischka, Mischka,

Very good, now at least we agree that Iran is a terror and torture theocracy and a disgrace to Islam.

Now all you have to do is get a grip on the flaws in the founders and foundations of Islam. You have copies. And of course, you also have copies of the Five Step Deprogramming of said religion. Actually once you clean out the militaristic and anti-female and plagiarized passages in the koran, basically all you have left is the Code of Hammurabi. http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/MESO/CODE.HTM This also holds for Judaim and Christianity.

CCNL -

You are suffering from a severe case of the Battered, Beaten and Butt Ugly soul. :-)

I know that terrorist attacks occurred. In fact, I dont disagree that any of it happened. Islam does not support violence in the name of religion - what they did was wrong and labeling it Jihad was wrong. That is how this whole thing got started. Jihad is not a physical fight.

I have outrage against anyone who demeans or manipulates the teachings of my religion to benefit their own needs.

"And no I am not a hermit living in some dirty apartment. I could say I live Dubai and make billions in Islamic oil blood/terror profits as a Christian oil dealer but actually I live in the lovely, now "Autumnized" USA, protector of the basic freedoms of speech and religion. And I am retired with two advanced degrees with a large loving family."

I find the decrepit CCNL the opposite of lovable. I dont think you have a single degree - let alone two! Educated people cannot be so ignorant...otherwise what on earth are the universities teaching people???

No matter what you say, your mannerism screams bigot, old, dirty and alone.

Really? I thought that you were a bot.

Mischka, Mischka, Mischka, Mischka and Moody, Moody, Moody, Moody,

Wow, talk about two Muslims with a severe case of the three B's i.e. Bred, Born and Brainwashed in Islam!!!

You really don't believe that all these terrorists acts occurred? The conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic train bombers in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani koranics, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino koranics.

And you don't believe that most of these atrocities were supported by the Islamic terror and torture theocracy of Iran!!!!!

And you have no outrage against Iran for demeaning your "peaceful" religion?????

And as note before:

And no I am not a hermit living in some dirty apartment. I could say I live Dubai and make billions in Islamic oil blood/terror profits as a Christian oil dealer but actually I live in the lovely, now "Autumnized" USA, protector of the basic freedoms of speech and religion. And I am retired with two advanced degrees with a large loving family. My greatest wish is to bring all sufferers of the three B's no matter what religion into the realm of historic reality. Are you two ready for your escape to that reality?? If not, I will persist in my quest.

The post below is from Mischka.

CCNL -

"And one always should follow such phrases with the facts"

Your facts are muddled with your own senile opinions. An ancient prejudiced man set in his ways that will never change or open up his mind to anything remotely decent.

"The conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic train bombers in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani koranics, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino koranics."

See - this is the kind of garbage that you try to reinforce. You lie through your teeth. You are aimless, no direction, no family, no soul, no morals, no values, NOTHING.

And the major supporter of these acts of terror and atrocities?

"The Islamic terror and torture theocracy of Iran!!!!! So where is your outrage against Iran for demeaning your "peaceful" religion?????"

The religion itself is peaceful. It teaches us to be the best we can be at everything we do. As for the above statement - back it up. Prove it. You have suspicion and rumor. Thats it. By the way, Islam is not the only religion practiced in Iran.

CCNL - I think you are just one of those old decrepit men who has no one around him to help him to the bathroom. You dont have anything else to do. I would suggest you hire a nurse.

JC:

People abbreviate my name all the time - i'm ok with that.

I did not say that nothing we do matters. EVERYTHING we do matters. There are consequences for everything. My faith teaches that what you do to others - good, bad, or indifferent - you ultimately do to yourself.

What I DID say is that I could imagine no PHYSICAL deed so horrid that it could merit ETERNAL punishment in the afterlife.

I have had many horrible things done to me by others, including rape. Do I believe that my rapist deserves eternal torture after he dies for his act? No. What I do believe is that his actions created for him a boatload of negative Karma, which he and he alone can and must balance. If he does not do so in this lifetime, then after he dies, when conditions aree right, he will be pulled back into the physical realm, reborn, and given the opportunity to clear his Karmic debt.

Have I done things that I shouldn't have? Of course - everyone has. When I wrong someone, I go to that person, offer a sincere apology, and do what I can to make it right. It is up to them whether to accept my apology and attempt at restitution. But it is on me to make the attempt. Have I done anything that merits an eternity of torture? Nope.

In your society discussion of torture is in progress, because YOUR PRESENT SYSTEM AND IDEAS APPROVES IT. (indiscriminate torture!!)

SHAMELESS AND BARBARIC!!!

History tells that the oppressers always called the oppressed BARBARIC to justify there own actions.

Infact they blame others for what they are doing them selves in reality!!!!!!!

Fogiveness is in every religion LIKE ISLAM. Allah forgive those how forgive others.

BUT IN ISLAM IT DOESN'T MEAN TO GIVE UP THE RIGHT TO DEFEND YOUR SELF AGAINST CONSTANT AND DEADLY OPPRESION AND INJUSTICE INFLICTED BY THE CRIMINALS, WHO THINK THEY ARE POWERFUL AND CAN MUNIPULATE ANY LAW IN THEIR FAVOR. (with a note that indiscriminate killing of innocent people and suicide in Islam is Haram, means forbidden).

It is only those muslim people committing such forbidden acts who are seviourly tortured and oppressed by the CRIMINALS, are you listening by the CRIMINAL MONSTORS. BY THE MONSTORS who are denying to address the reality facts. Who are denying to admit the SINS they are committing on mass scale level. Who are in denial of their world level tayrany and brutal way of controlling the world.

Any human heart is always willing to forgive, BUT ONLY HUMAN HEART!!!!!!

If a Muslim and a Christian are thrown down a cliff, who hits the bottom first ? It's the Christian. The Muslim has to stop to get directions.

Mischka, Mischka, Mischka, Mischka,

We all like phrases that summarize the situation. And it is difficult to find something shorter and to the point than the following to summarize your warmongering religion:

"Gators vs. Muslims??? Gators definitely will kill. With Muslims, it depends but with the koran as their operating manual can we trust any of them?"

And one always should follow such phrases with the facts in case global news is not available where Mischka lives:

The conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic train bombers in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani koranics, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino koranics.

And the major supporter of these acts of terror and atrocities?

The Islamic terror and torture theocracy of Iran!!!!! So where is your outrage against Iran for demeaning your "peaceful" religion?????

And thanks to Viejita del oeste for reading and reinforcing her neurons about warmongering Islam.

Mischka
At least you got Concerned to break out of cut-and-paste mode for a few sentences. I'd stand by your original comment.

Concerned
You're forgiven for your continual and repetitive posts. Try not to be insulted if we decline to read the same information over and over again, and we'll try not to be insulted by your habit of "conversing" with your hands over your ears.

CCNL -

"Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God."

What does that make you??? Satan? :-)

"I recommend reading some of their books in your pursuit of knowledge. "E. Favorite" and many others to include myself are doing that in continuing our pursuit of knowledge and you now have the benefit of our many conclusions i.e. we have done the work for you."

See - anything that puts my views in the same sentence as yours is repulsive. You dont have knowledge - you have arthritis.

"Apparently you are not willing to accept said reviews and conclusions about your warmongering religion at the moment, but as you get older and more mature, it will all become clear as you finally conquer your koranic brainwashing."

I would consider your views and even your suggestions IF you had been the slightest bit respectful. Even the slightest bit. However, since you are not - I dont see why I should be.

You think you possess knowledge and some sort of divine secret that the WHOLE world is blind to. You may be an atheist and not believe in God or Allah. But I think that makes you worse then anyone...because not only do you impose your beliefs on other people in the most hateful fashion but you demean. At least the rest of us have something to believe in and a path to follow. The Bible, Qur'an, Torah, Geeta, etc.

You have air. You dont have a single thing to look forward to or wake up to. You have dust waiting for you. Maybe thats a comfort to you or maybe you are just looking for company since you are so miserable.

You want people to listen you or do you want people to shut you out?

Should we forgive this vile bush and cheney even if they have committed atrocities?

Mischka, Mischka, Mischka, Mischka,

Repetition of some things is required as in repeating the Beatitudes so the message sets in, e.g. "Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God."

So to repeat for the third time:

Hopefully, you have access to the writings and thoughts of contemporary religious exegetes, many of them are On Faith panelists. I recommend reading some of their books in your pursuit of knowledge. "E. Favorite" and many others to include myself are doing that in continuing our pursuit of knowledge and you now have the benefit of our many conclusions i.e. we have done the work for you.

Apparently you are not willing to accept said reviews and conclusions about your warmongering religion at the moment, but as you get older and more mature, it will all become clear as you finally conquer your koranic brainwashing.

P.R.A.Y. for rain! Get a Miracle Rain Bead today!

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Why not P.R.A.Y. for rain? Couldn't hurt! Even the Governor's doing it, but maybe he should have looked at more options on this one. Please see this:

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Thanks for your support and God Bless!

Mike

P.R.A.Y. for rain! Get a Miracle Rain Bead today!

P.R.A.Y. for rain! "Precipitate Religion All Year!" Hold this Miracle Rain Bead in your hand, and help bring back the life giving rains. Put it on your window sill and watch it bring back the rain clouds, with the Lord's blessings. Each bead is $5 each. Each one of us needs to do all we can to fight this drought, and prayer, happy thoughts, and positive thinking can't hurt! God bless!

Why not P.R.A.Y. for rain? Couldn't hurt! Even the Governor's doing it, but maybe he should have looked at more options on this one. Please see this:

http://atlanta.craigslist.org/com/481158961.html

Thanks for your support and God Bless!

Mike

P.R.A.Y. for rain! Get a Miracle Rain Bead today!

P.R.A.Y. for rain! "Precipitate Religion All Year!" Hold this Miracle Rain Bead in your hand, and help bring back the life giving rains. Put it on your window sill and watch it bring back the rain clouds, with the Lord's blessings. Each bead is $5 each. Each one of us needs to do all we can to fight this drought, and prayer, happy thoughts, and positive thinking can't hurt! God bless!

Why not P.R.A.Y. for rain? Couldn't hurt! Even the Governor's doing it, but maybe he should have looked at more options on this one. Please see this:

http://atlanta.craigslist.org/com/481158961.html

Thanks for your support and God Bless!

Mike

JC: one can indeed assume that there are consequences to one's actions here on earth without assuming an afterlife. In fact if you don't have the "oh well, go to confession and all is forgiven" doctrine to fall back on, you are more likely to dwell on the consequences here and now, not less.

and it's perfectly logical to ponder the absurdities of eternal damnation for those who die with an unconfessed mortal sin, which caused the Catholic Church at least to turn summersaults inventing perfect acts of contrition for those who can't get to a priest before they die, and other stuff like that, just to make the dogma possible to swallow, if not easy.

Attention Fellow Posters:

Concerned The Christian Now Liberated has been posting the same post for about a year now. Nothing changes...not even a comma. He has pre-typed posts that he copies/pastes wherever he can find space.

He is retired, at home, soaking his dentures and has nothing better to do.

Ignore him.

Lepid,

Sorry if I spelled your name wrong. Most of your arguments I have heard before. Okay so we disagree. But your one thought that no action that we do in this temporal, material world could merit eternal punishment???????? What? Could you please please explain to me then what of all the horrible things that have ocurred over history. Just take a moment to think of the horrible things that have happened to you, that you have done just as we all have.

Perhaps for you all truth is relative, there is no right and there is no wrong all is a wishy washy gray illusion. I believe this life is real, our actions are real and that they have real consequences. Life would surely be easier if I just thought to myself, its okay this isn't really happening. But whether we choose to recognize it or not this life is real and it does count. Let us make the most of it.

ananymous

you should change your name to

Inane-the=most

What happens when an Muslim gets Alzheimer's disease ? IQ increases.

"Without Him, I would be a worthless worm"

JC,

Don't devalue yourself that way! Worms are hardly worthless! They consume organic waste and convert it into compost, so that new plants can be fertilized. Plus, they make good eatin' for fish - as any fisherman would tell you. They're one of the Lady's most efficient creatures.

Now mosquitoes, OTOH... THEY are worthless! :D

Monty Keeliing,

Well there are and have been many "bridge gappers" to God (if this Singularity exists):

1. John the Baptist,

2. The Twelve Apostles assuming Judas was responsible and forgiven. He would also be considered a "necessary accessory" allowing Jesus to become a "bridge gapper",

3. Paul, also another "necessary accessory",

4. All the OT heroes and heroines if they existed,

5. All the Jewish religious "radicals" before and after Jesus,

6. Constantine, another "necessary accessory",

6. Buddha,

7. All good persons current and past including yourself.

To Concerned The Christian:

Although I have great admiration for Crossan, I would invite you to consider the role of symbolism in religious faith. John Killinger has written that Jesus Christ was God's answer to a bad reputation. If sin is what separates us from God, our limited ability to understand how a loving Creator could make and sustain a world with such suffering separates us from God. The reason I am a Christian is because God sent his son, who was really God in human form, to suffer, die and rise again, as evidence that there is a purpose to our life. So if Jesus did not die for our sins in the traditional understanding - and I for one would not argue against that belief - he certainly died and suffered to bridge the gulf between God and man.

JC:
**If you mean to imply that God the Father is guilty of fillicide you are wrong. He did not kill His son. The ones guilty of killing Jesus in the moment were the leaders of the Sanhedrin, Pontius Pilate and whole angry mob who chose Jesus over Barabus.**

If I recall my Sunday School lessons correctly, the whole purpose of Jesus being born was to be crucified. If that was the case, then God is just as guilty of his death as the soldiers who pounded the nails.

**I say in the moment because we ultimately are all responsible for his death. You in fact as well as myself are to blame for the death of Jesus.**

I refuse to take the blame for an event that supposedly happened almost 2 millenia before I was born.

**His death and more importantly his resurrection offers us a way to reconcile ourselves to God. Hope that one day you may realize the great gift of grace that has been offered to you. Grace is something given to us that we don't deserve. Mercy is punishment witheld that we do deserve. We have been granted both grace and mercy but if one chooses to deny the power of that grace and mercy they are rendered powerless themselves to be spiritually alive. Instead that person chooses to be a spiritual corpse or as Jesus said a "whitewashed tomb".**

Sorry, but I see nothing that a person could do in a temporal, material world that would merit eternal punishment in the spiritual realm.

**Without Him, I would be a worthless worm.**

I don't believe it. Surely you have some good qualities of your own. Everyone has at least one worthwhile thing about them.

**He gives me hope and purpose.**

Seeing the sun rise over the rim of my coffee mug in the morning does that for me. So does my daughter's kiss. And my cats' purring. And my husband's snoring in my ear. And my freinds and family.

But if Jesus is what it takes for you to feel that life is worth living, then you're welcome to him.

Ahmed from Islamic Bahrain,

We await your rebuttal to the known flaws in your warmongering religion.

With respect to contemporary events, once again a reminder:

The Islamic warmongering agenda continues today as shown by the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic train bombers in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani koranics, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino koranics.
And who funds these acts of terror?

The Islamic Shiite terror theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

And all this sponsored terror is Zionist propaganda? Give us a break!!!!

And how come you never thank the USA for its help in saving the Muslims of Bosnia, Kosovo and Kuwait? Or thanking the USA for trying to bring peace to Somalia?

Amviennava, any added commentary??

Ahmed From Bahrain: I have found that the most effective way to read 'Concerned the Christian Now Liberated' posts is simply to skip over them. They actually have more meaning that way.

Concerned the Christian now Liberated,

If you mean to imply that God the Father is guilty of fillicide you are wrong. He did not kill His son. The ones guilty of killing Jesus in the moment were the leaders of the Sanhedrin, Pontius Pilate and whole angry mob who chose Jesus over Barabus. I say in the moment because we ultimately are all responsible for his death. You in fact as well as myself are to blame for the death of Jesus. His death and more importantly his resurrection offers us a way to reconcile ourselves to God. Hope that one day you may realize the great gift of grace that has been offered to you. Grace is something given to us that we don't deserve. Mercy is punishment witheld that we do deserve. We have been granted both grace and mercy but if one chooses to deny the power of that grace and mercy they are rendered powerless themselves to be spiritually alive. Instead that person chooses to be a spiritual corpse or as Jesus said a "whitewashed tomb".

I am far from a perfect person, and that is all the more reason why I am so blessed to have a life in Jesus. Without Him, I would be a worthless worm. He gives me hope and purpose. Jesus knew that there would always be people who speak against Him and his followers. He also said that if we deny Him that He will deny us on the day of judgement.

Peace

Concerned
You sound like a cracked record. Please limit your data to our recent times of 100 years history coz talking about 1500 years is like being stuck in a rut as you are. it all depends who wrote history and for serving what purpose. for every 'proof' you can sight, I can sight more than one. Stick to our times where we can comprehend what is going on despite the brainwashing of your CIA, FBI, KFC.

Anon
Zionist has taken over your government and they will do whatever it takes to paint others in a bad light. Few Muslim fanatics have given them the rope and I admit we have many ignorant lot but they are harmless compared to the neocons and the evangelists from amongst your elite. they have access to money adn WMD. As for Iran, they have no nukes. You can rest assured. It may be on the card but they can never use it coz if they did it would be their end. They will unleash a humongous power which will annihilate them.

The propaganda against Iran is made in Israel and sold to your government. Point is fossil fuel is running out and Iran naturally plans to be independent given their 25 years history of being at the mercy of Western technology. They do not want to buy fissile material from the West, who by the way sees this as their opportunity to reverse the role of controlling supply and have the Middle East now begging for supply as they have been doing for the last 100 years, begging for oil. For them it is pay back time, no matter the cost. Ethic and Christian mantra is for the average folk. Strangulation at whatever cost is the way of the elite.

You choose which side you wish to take? It is all ok with me for I have freed myself both from your lot and from my own. Each is playing a game where I want no part of. My only concern is for the innocent folk who you do not care for. If you do then you can reflect that in your posts.

Forgiveness means refusing to hold the bitterness in our own hearts, and refusing to let every reference to our tormentor be an occasion for us to relive the torment. It does not mean assenting to the act or allowing ourselves to be in a position of letting it happen again.
If you are familiar with the Catholic prayer "Oh My Jesus," you will recall the great line "and lead all souls to heaven especially those MOST IN NEED of Thy mercy."
Also the Paternoster: "forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us."
This is all completely separate from whatever earthly punishment the civil and criminal authorities impose on those convicted of crimes. Also separate from the question of whether forgiveness includes having to ever associate with those who wronged us, or include them in our circle of friends. Just because you forgive someone doesn't mean you have to like them.

AHMED from BAHRAIN....having read your post,one can but agree,as to your words on the plight of the Palestinian people,an Palestinian state should have been completed at least a decade past,the USA favouring ISRAEL turning an blind eye to the appalling behaviour of ISRAEL, ever expanding its present settlements,as build ever more.. ISRAELI settlements on Palestinian land. However you should not see it as american love for ISRAEL, in truth in the eyes of USA GOVTS, ISRAEL but an military base which maintains,USA power in the middle east, it be simply but good business sense ,for USA govts to support ISRAEL. In regard to IRAN if they continuing to build an nuclear bomb,then military force will be used to destroy such means,for western nations as USA,an nuclear armed IRAN, THREATENS EUROPE AS THE USA. Extreme religious brainwashing put upon muslim children be an great wrong,the damage done being grave,as being muslim women, deprived of basic human rights, ISLAMIC nations through own folly, they having brought great hardship, as injustice upon themselves, through their own stupidity.

shalom
i cant forgive to my enemies,
i kill my enemies.
"how come to kill me,earliy to kill him"

Gandalf,

The famous quote:

"Gators vs. Muslims??? Gators definitely will kill. With Muslims, it depends but with the koran as their operating manual can we trust any of them?"

was made to a general audience of blue bloods, red necks, Republicans, Democrats, Shiites and Sunnis following the KISS quote guidelines i.e.

"Keep it Simple, Stupid" or variations thereof.

How can we forgive our enemies? Should we, even if they have committed atrocities?

I have difficulty understanding this concept of forgiveness. From personal examination of myself as a man I find that too much of my time is spent in sexual thoughts and especially wasted on all sorts of revenge fantasies. This inner nature of myself coupled with a pretty good memory for being slighted makes me a suspicious person and in general I find it difficult to imagine how a person can forgive even if not given to revenge fantasies. We all possess memories right? When we are wronged by a person is it ever really the same (as before the wrong) with that person? Do we not approach the person differently even if we want to forget and just get along?

Forgiveness is an alien concept to me. At best I find other things to occupy myself than revenge fantasies. And it is an open question as to how much these "other things" are something other than the success of revenge fantasies--which is to say actual acts of revenge. I like to think though that by applying myself to intellectual matters, other acts called typically by others work, that I am at least being useful if not forgiving.

For example a recent type of overcoming revenge, "forgiving" others I can envision, involves recent thoughts I have been having about the founding fathers of the U.S. and how Republicans and Democrats have been interpreting the Constitution. I have always hated Republican and Democratic squabbling about "Constitutional originalism" (Republican interpretation of how the founding fathers approached the Constitution) and the "living Constitution" (Democratic flexibility of interpretation with regard to the Constitution). This squabbling has disgusted me so much that all I have been able to think about is destroying both political parties. But I have learned to "forgive" by reading more about the founding fathers and realizing that the problem is not so much whether we are faithful or not faithful to the Constitution itself as whether we are the type of men, of the caliber of the founding fathers, and capable of reading, writing, thinking as well as they did and capable of tossing out a Constitution WHICH WAS JUST ONE OF MANY WRITINGS BY THEM WHICH ARE A WHOLE WORLD AND THE FOUNDATION OF OUR NATION. In other words we should not be studying one document by them and arguing about whether we should slavishly follow or modify, we should be studying all their writings and constantly being of such mind to be at least equal and perhaps superior to the types of problems and more that they faced.

In short I am the type of man who forgives--if he forgives--by understanding and creating, by getting above in that sense the problems I face.

As for forgiving atrocities...I am beneath commenting on that. I have no idea how I would respond to an atrocity. Probably at the least I would want to kill a person who commits atrocities. I would hope I would not want to torture such a person. But I would probably kill. I suppose each person has his limits of understanding, tolerance, patience, etc.

And this really is the only way I understand forgiveness: through indirect routes of understanding, patience, tolerance.

Some things people talk about like forgiveness are like colors I am not genetically able to see or something. I think there are many types of colorblindness--which is to say colorblindness is not just about the eyes.

What would be interesting though is to see a study of musicians to determine whether musicians are less likely to be racist, religiously dogmatic, etc. I get the impression somehow that musicians more than the rest of us would be able to get at and explain what we mean by forgiveness.

At least when I listen to music I do get the feeling of goodwill to all men. Of course much music is aggressive, etc. but I think people would understand if I simply say music.

Don't worry Concerned, I forgive you.

:)

CCNL, you say (for the millionth time): The situation continues to remind us of that famous quote: "Gators vs. Muslims??? Gators definitely will kill. With Muslims, it depends but with the koran as their operating manual can we trust any of them?"

What "famous" quote? Just because you say it over and over again (for lack of better or more rational dialogue), do you think it is famou? Can you seriously not come up with something more intellectual?

To our Congressional representatives and to our President and his Cabinet, keep up the good work on our War on Terror. If some tough interrogation of our "atrocitizing/beheading/suicide bombing" enemies is needed, so be it. It is not something that needs to be confessed in a confessional.

While one might be able to forgive our enemies for atrocities they've committed, the more important question is whether or not we as Americans can ever forgive ourselves for not taking to the streets and doing everything in our corporate power to remove the bush administration from power, and to stop them from committing atrocities in our name.

I'm not just speaking of torture performed on our "enemies" and - as far as we know - our fellow citizens. I'm speaking of the atrocities they have committed against our Constitution and the American ethos and way of life.

Other countries may someday forgive us our indifference to the dismantling of our democracy, but how do we as Americans live with (or even explain) our devolving from ardent needs-of-the-many citizens to blasé every-man-for-himself consumers?

Lipidopteryx: I think you have your theology wrong. An omnipotent god is perfectly capable of forgiving without an apology from the offender (though as Spinoza pointed out, ascribing human attributes to God is problematic - for him, forgiveness is an entirely different animal - he certainly is not humbly letting go of the temptation to judge when he forgives). (That is also the reason that the doctrine of original sin in no way suggests that god is OK with humans not forgiving each other under any circumstances).

The doctrine is simply that the offender cannot obtain his or her own reconciliation without repentance. Forgiveness is all about the offended's personal act of not judging, not anythine having to do with the offender.

Some People are Forgiving, Some Aren't

does anyone else share this feeling?

some people are naturally forgiving, some are naturally the kind of people who hold grudges and have a very hard time forgiving.

i think it is probably fairly highly correlated with empathy, but i am also sure that it is more complicated than just that.

Ahh, note how Ahmed from Bahrain never mentions his warmongering religion nor the flaws in the founders and foundations of his religion. These past 1400 years of koranic warmongering and Muslim allegiance to a illiterate, hallucinating, womanizing Arab, have caused and continues to cause pain, suffering, death and bloodletting on a global scale. The situation continues to remind us of that famous quote:

"Gators vs. Muslims??? Gators definitely will kill. With Muslims, it depends but with the koran as their operating manual can we trust any of them?"

Consider these words from Colossians 3:12-14

Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with one another and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.

Consider as well these thoughts:

Different sins carry different consequences here on Earth.

All sin however has the same spiritual result, see Isaiah 59:2. Meaning all sin regardless of earthly consequences causes us to be seperated from God until we choose to repent.

We are all guilty of sin, see Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God".

If we continue reading from Romans 3 to chapter 4 it speaks about how Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness. Romans 4:2

If we doubt that God is powerful enough to forgive us and offer something on this earth and in the one to come, we logically will doubt our own capacity to forgive.

Forgiveness is not justification of an action. Forgiveness is an act of humility in recognizing that we are above no one as our sins have just as equally separated us from God as the actions done against us.

Forgiveness is about humility, something all socities struggle with. If we are so quick to point all the mistakes of us as a people are we not being incredibly hypocritical to not see that we as individuals are far from perfect.

I desperately need the forgiveness of God as well as others. I should be able to give the very thing I ask for.

Shame on our pride. Pride begins in the heart and eats away until it accomplishes Satan's task of making us believe that we are above God.

May we each reflect seriously on our own unworthiness before screaming about that of others.

David :
According to pagan theology there is nothing to forgive since we are all divine anyway. Yeah....makes sense

Actually, it's not that "we are all divine anyway" - it's that the Divine is present within us. That doesn't mean that we never screw up. And when we screw up, we are required to do what we can to repair the harm/damage our misdeed caused, and to apologize to/seek forgiveness from those harmed. It is up to them whether or not they accept the apology/grant forgiveness.

When I read this question, I saw it from the point of view of a Middle Easterner, as I am one.

So, can I forgive you Westerners for your devious involvement in the Middle East over the last 100 years? From installing puppets who serve your interest at the cost of local population to your troops stationed everywhere, to your 'shock and awe' and continued deceit, to your vehement support of Israel at the cost of millions of Palestinians over the last 50 years with no recourse to justice whatsoever. If any has doubts then, I suggest they visit Middle Eastern hotbeds and live there for a while. It will give them a better understanding than mere laptop googling for 'facts'.

Can I forgive them for all that? For opportunities lost to my father, myself and everyone I know who could have made a better life had they lived in freedom. Freedom of choice. Not to mention those who have been killed, imprisoned, forgotten and made homeless as a result, over the last 100 years. Even though as some of them have sought refuge in your Western world, hoping for such freedom, yet like a cow being branded for life and now polled by LAPD. Wonder why???

Can I forgive you?

Let me first say that 911 was the result of your fingering Middle East over 100 years. The only surprise is that it did not come earlier.

So, now you have had a taste of being at the receiving end just once thro 911 and even when every single city and town of America lives in peace, you still wage wars upon us and planning to attack Iran soon for Israel's blue eyes, when we know Semites have back eyes!!

Let me also say, if it were revenge then a million Iraqi, Afghani, Lebanese, Palestinians, etc should have quenched your thirst for revenge. So, what more do you want when you ask your own people to forgive us? Or are we who have seen devastation over 100 years be the ones who do the forgiving?

Forgiveness? You do not know the meaning of the word. I feel sorry for you all.

All I can say is that: "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do."

Its a rainy night in Georgia.

According to pagan theology there is nothing to forgive since we are all divine anyway. Yeah....makes sense...

According to Christian theology, even God doesn't forgive unless the offender ("sinner") truly repents and asks for forgiveness.
So I guess that those who are able to grant forgiveness to those who don't apologize and don't own up to their wrong are bigger than God.

How can the survivors and their families forgive Genocides?
Having seen the basest of human kinds atrocities against family, nation, culture yet perpetrator denies guilt ('insulted' to boot) and blames the victims; demanding proof.
Actually, archives world over, including the U.S. have
all the proofs. Then the perpetrator says 'let's talk, have meetings
to discuss.' Another delaying tactic which is their style: don't
agree to anything unless it can't be avoided. Also, make agreements at times, as needed, and then do not abide by the
agreements........and sadly, get away with it. I see the perpetrator, as in the children's story "The Emperor's Clothing", they have
come to believe they are, moral as a nation, yet have not the clothes to 'prove' this. Matter of fact, I call them bullies......

How can the survivors and their families forgive Genocides?
Having seen the basest of human kinds atrocities against family, nation, culture yet perpetrator denies guilt ('insulted' to boot) and blames the victims; demanding proof.
Actually, archives world over, including the U.S. have
all the proofs. Then the perpetrator says 'let's talk, have meetings
to discuss.' Another delaying tactic which is their style: don't
agree to anything unless it can't be avoided. Also, make agreements at times, as needed, and then do not abide by the
agreements........and sadly, get away with it. I see the perpetrator, as in the children's story "The Emperor's Clothing", they have
come to believe they are, moral as a nation, yet have not the clothes to 'prove' this. Matter of fact, I call them bullies......

How can the survivors and their families forgive Genocides?
Having seen the basest of human kinds atrocities against family, nation, culture yet perpetrator denies guilt ('insulted' to boot) and blames the victims; demanding proof.
Actually, archives world over, including the U.S. have
all the proofs. Then the perpetrator says 'let's talk, have meetings
to discuss.' Another delaying tactic which is their style: don't
agree to anything unless it can't be avoided. Also, make agreements at times, as needed, and then do not abide by the
agreements........and sadly, get away with it. I see the perpetrator, as in the children's story "The Emperor's Clothing", they have
come to believe they are, moral as a nation, yet have not the clothes to 'prove' this. Matter of fact, I call them bullies......

"Your column on FORGIVENESS caught my eye because I am now releasing a new documentary on that very topic... Go to our site and get a little background."

Here's the link:

http://www.journeyfilms.com/index.asp

It's clear God agrees with the idea of non-forgiveness. Otherwise the concept of original sin would not exist.

It's clear God agrees with the idea of non-forgiveness. Otherwise the concept of original sin would not exist.

It's clear God agrees with the idea of non-forgiveness. Otherwise the concept of original sin would not exist.

Sally and Jon,
I am sorry I missed you when you opened the Dean's forum at the National Cathedral. I am doing a new film for PBS that will capture the first hundred years of that great institution.

Your column on FORGIVENESS caught my eye because I am now releasing a new documentary on that very topic. I am showing it at the United Nations tomorrow night. If you would like a copy let me know. Go to our site and get a little background. The topic is so personal and provocative, the comments you post fascinating.
Martin Doblmeier

Sally and Jon,
I am sorry I missed you when you opened the Dean's forum at the National Cathedral. I am doing a new film for PBS that will capture the first hundred years of that great institution.

Your column on FORGIVENESS caught my eye because I am now releasing a new documentary on that very topic. I am showing it at the United Nations tomorrow night. If you would like a copy let me know. Go to our site and get a little background. The topic is so personal and provocative, the comments you post fascinating.
Martin Doblmeier

Wow. I'm impressed by the comments so far.

May I add something? A benefit of forgiveness is that you don't have to be "right" about your religious choices nor do you have to be religious at all. You are freeing yourself, and you only -may- have an effect on your "tormenter" by your continued holding out, anyway. The moment you decide to forgive you win something precious: your own psychological and spiritual freedom, and it didn't come at anyone else's expense during any sort of competition. You decided you were worth it.

You are at peace with "what goes around comes around," no matter how or when.

Wow. I'm impressed by the comments so far.

May I add something? A benefit of forgiveness is that you don't have to be "right" about your religious choices nor do you have to be religious at all. You are freeing yourself, and you only -may- have an effect on your "tormenter" by your continued holding out, anyway. The moment you decide to forgive you win something precious: your own psychological and spiritual freedom, and it didn't come at anyone else's expense during any sort of competition. You decided you were worth it.

You are at peace with "what goes around comes around," no matter how or when.

You know what is beyond forgiveness? The enslavement of millions of Africans in the Western hemisphere for over 500 years. That can never be forgiven. If Jesus wants to forgive that-fine-that's his job, but I and mine will never forgive or forget this crime against humanity.

Yes. Everyone - even Hitler, even Osama Bin Laden and those who carried out his plans on 9/11, should be forgiven... and will be.

Sean

Gaby: you don't need to forgive someone for an accidental injury at all. only those who do commit an intentional offense are forgivable. as noted by others, forgiveness is simply the forgiver's act of letting go of their judgment of the offender as evil (judge not, and all that). nothing more, nothing less (it is a feat). it has nothing to do with forgetting, absolving of consequences, or being dumb enough to let it happen again, and it does not require contrition by the offender. it is simply the act of letting hate go. that doesn't even require that you be a believer.

Once again, an update on our War on Terror: (and where all those Federal taxes are going these days)

1. Saddam, his sons and major henchmen have been eliminated. Saddam's bravado about WMD was one of his major mistakes. http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/middle_east/iraq/un_inspections.html

(After what Saddam did to Iran in their war, you would think they would thank us, but no this Shiite terror and torture theocracy continues to act in a very unforgiving, koranic way).

2. Iran is being been contained. (besides fighting the civil war in Bahgdad, that is the main reason we are in Iraq. And yes, essential oil continues to flow from the region.)

3. Libya has become almost civil. Recently OBL threatened Libya for being friends with the USA.

4. North Korea is still uncivil but is contained. The US Navy recently helped recover a number of North Korean citizens and ships from Islamic pirates operating off the coast of Somalia.

5. Northern Ireland is finally at peace.

6. The Jews and Palestinians are being separated by walls. Hopefully the walls will follow the 1948 UN accords.

7. Bin Laden has been cornered under a rock in Western Pakistan since 9/11.

8. Fanatical Islam has basically been contained to the Middle East but a wall between India and Pakistan would be a plus for world peace. Ditto for a wall between Afghahistan and Pakistan.

9.Timothy McVeigh was executed. Terry Nichols will follow soon.

10. Eric Rudolph is spending three life terms in prison with no parole.

11. Jim Jones, David Koresh, The Unabomber Ted Kaczynski, the "nuns" from Rwanda, and the KKK were all dealt with and either eliminated themselves or were punished.

12. Islamic Darfur and Islamic Somalia are still terror hot spots.

How can we forgive our enemies? Should we, even if they have committed atrocities?

We should definitely forgive...but more importantly we need to forgive. Without forgiveness...people stop progressing.

Its hard and sometimes seems impossible to do because of the crimes committed. However, its necessary for us to learn how to let go of things because human beings are imperfect.

Punishment is different. I think punishment is necessary for future reference and example. But once its done...there needs to be a time to move on.

Anonymous said: "It seems like being Christian is the unforgivable sin in this country. It's a shame."

Oh please. Spare us the pious self-pity. If Christians are so put-upon, why is it nearly impossible to hold elected office in this country without professing Christianity? You may as well say white people are being kept down because of their race.

You said: "That's a rather broad sweeping generalization don't you think? I mean you essentially insulted evey Christian who agrees with you, because by your statement they either condone torture or don't believe in the bible."

First, I didn't insult all Christians, because the majority do not believe in the inerrancy of the Bible. Second: you're right...it was a sweeping generalization for which I apologize. There are good and bad people of all faiths and of free thought.

I do believe, however, that a substantial majority of Bible-believing Christians have embraced a mysticism and moral relativism that mirrors that of the Islamofascists. I would love for their to be a scientific poll charting bible belief in America as it correlates to support for torture, pre-emptive war, and the rights of minorities.

Can we forgive ANY atrocity? YES.

...And then send the perpetrator to prison for life and make an example of their crime for all to see and learn from.

For instance, Ted Haggard should go to jail for fraud and theft of tens of millions of dollars raised on TV from senior citizens on a fixed income.

So should Pat Robertson.

But I'll forgive him once he is behind bars.

Can we forgive ANY atrocity? YES.

...And then send the perpetrator to prison for life and make an example of their crime for all to see and learn from.

For instance, Ted Haggard should go to jail for fraud and theft of tens of millions of dollars raised on TV from senior citizens on a fixed income.

So should Pat Robertson.

But I'll forgive him once he is behind bars.

Can we forgive ANY atrocity? YES.

...And then send the perpetrator to prison for life and make an example of their crime for all to see and learn from.

For instance, Ted Haggard should go to jail for fraud and theft of tens of millions of dollars raised on TV from senior citizens on a fixed income.

So should Pat Robertson.

But I'll forgive him once he is behind bars.

The fact that Christians are even asking this question is why I don't call myself "a Christian" anymore, and simply call myself a follower of Jesus. There is a debate about whether we should forgive each other? And the Christians hedge???
The Red words don't get much clearer. Forgive.

Atrocities?
How do you know? You are not suppose to JUDGE.

It's NOTHING if a person loves their family or friends -- even Satan does that. What sets those who follow Jesus apart is that they aren't afraid of anything -- especially dying. They can RISK forgiving... and even LOVING their enemies.

I dare those who say they follow Jesus to (1) stop judging ANYBODY, (2) be merciful to EVERYBODY, and (3) fear NOTHING.
That's what f-a-i-t-h is all about.

To Skeptimal

"Six years later, "Bible-believing" Christians in the U.S. now have a tolerant attitude toward torture, a very similar evil. They also view religious tolerance and personal freedom as an affront to their faith, and they put security above freedom. I don't think it's an accident that things have turned this way: if you hate, you become like the thing you hate."

--That's a rather broad sweeping generalization don't you think? I mean you essentially insulted evey Christian who agrees with you, because by your statement they either condone torture or don't believe in the bible.

It seems like being Christian is the unforgivable sin in this country. It's a shame.

Relating this question to faith I come to one passage in the Christian faith that is hard to argue.

"He who has not sinned, cast the first stone."

How can we not forgive our enemies when we too are guilty of evil? And another question would be, how can we demand forgiveness but not give it in return?

.

Should we forgive our enemies? That is to me a non-issue. Of course, we should.

The more contentious problem is: Should we forgive our friends? I mean, your enemy is expected to do you harm (Or what's an enemy for? A blithe but obvious statement of fact/life.) But a friend? A friend doing you harm, well, that will take some forgiving... That's why we should not be surprised why there seems to be so much distrust if not hatred cast against America nowadays. For so long, America was the world's friend (to many parts of the world, even "best friend"). From a friend, much is expected--so a friend can easily be amissed, frustrate, not meausre up to expectations. But, I guess, this is largely due to America wanting to be more than a friend, a "savior," or a "leader," the "major rooster in the hen-house." Which is quiet human, but...

But what is, what does it mean "to forgive"? We should answer that--clearly and honestly, before we can deal with the next questions; How to forgive? When to forgive? (The "why" is a non-issue, as I wrote above.)

The "correct" (meaning, appropriate and true to a humanistic and, hopefully, also "religious") answer provides already the consequent responses to such concerns as what to do with those who have done us harm, etc.

What is "to forgive"? Ah, me thinks this is foundational to answers even to such queries as "Is there God?" "What is moral?" And the clue-rich: "What is love?"

Oh, yes.
,

What I cannot forgive is taking the country into an unneccessary war. Bush based the invasion of Iraq on Saddam Hussein possessing weapons of mass destruction. When the war started, the White House released a statement that said "the dictator is being disarmed."

This proved to be false.

Bush has never apologized.

This is unforgivable.

Bin Laden's attack on 9-11 is unforgivable, too. Unfortunately, we answered his unforgivable crime with an unforgivable crime of our own.

Maybe the reason Jesus advised us to turn the other cheek is that when we strike back in anger, we cause more problems than we solve.

What I cannot forgive is taking the country into an unneccessary war. Bush based the invasion of Iraq on Saddam Hussein possessing weapons of mass destruction. When the war started, the White House released a statement that said "the dictator is being disarmed."

This proved to be false.

Bush has never apologized.

This is unforgivable.

Bin Laden's attack on 9-11 is unforgivable, too. Unfortunately, we answered his unforgivable crime with an unforgivable crime of our own.

Maybe the reason Jesus advised us to turn the other cheek is that when we strike back in anger, we cause more problems than we solve.

.

Should we forgive our enemies? That is to me a non-issue. Of course, we should.

The more contentious problem is: Should we forgive our friends? I mean, your enemy is expected to do you harm (Or what's an enemy for? A blithe but obvious statement of fact/life.) But a friend? A friend doing you harm, well, that will take some forgiving... That's why we should not be surprised why there seems to be so much distrust if not hatred cast against America nowadays. For so long, America was the world's friend (to many parts of the world, even "best friend"). From a friend, much is expected--so a friend can easily be amissed, frustrate, not meausre up to expectations. But, I guess, this is largely due to America wanting to be more than a friend, a "savior," of a"leader," the "major rooster in the hen-house." Which is quiet human, but...

But what is, what does it mean "to forgive"? We should answer that--clearly and honestly, before we can deal with the next questions; How to forgive? When to forgive? (The "why" is a non-issue, as I wrote above.)

The "correct" (meaning, appropriate and true to a humanistic and, hopefully, also "religious" answer provides already the consequent responses to such concerns as what to do with those who have done us harm, etc.

What is "to forgive"? Ah, me thinks this is foundational to answers even to such queries as "Is there God?" "What is moral?" And the clue-rich: "What is love?"

Oh, yes.
,

What I cannot forgive is taking the country into an unneccessary war. Bush based the invasion of Iraq on Saddam Hussein possessing weapons of mass destruction. When the war started, the White House released a statement that said "the dictator is being disarmed."

This proved to be false.

Bush has never apologized.

This is unforgivable.

Bin Laden's attack on 9-11 is unforgivable, too. Unfortunately, we answered his unforgivable crime with an unforgivable crime of our own.

Maybe the reason Jesus advised us to turn the other cheek is that when we strike back in anger, we cause more problems than we solve.

A CONSTANT in the Human Experience is that of LOSS -- loss of time, loss of job, loss of friends and family members, loss of health and happiness, and, one day, the loss of one's life.

The personal act of Forgiveness implies that the Human Action which resulted in the loss, was Wrong, was Sinful, was Unfair, Unjust, etc. etc.

Of course, great loss results from "Acts of Nature", too.

My point is that Loss is Universal -- it happens all the time and it happens to every one and every thing!!

We resist it. We defend against it. We succeed sometimes. And we sometimes fail to prevent loss.

In the end -- if you care to reflect dispassionately about it -- right or wrong, we lose everything and everyone.

Which may be why a Prophet once exclaimed that everything is Vanity! He was right.

The only way that our experience of loss makes sense, to me anyway, is if in the larger sense, if in the Transcending Reality, there Is No Loss.

You may think that you lost something or someone! In fact, you KNOW that you lost something and someone!

But I would suggest, from first hand experience, that, in Truth, Nothing Is Lost. Nothing Is Lost.

I would further suggest, again from first hand experience that isn't drug induced, that there is a Place, another Plane of Reality where you will experience and know a Peace That Passes All Understanding, that transports you, delivers you and encompasses you so that YOU, FINALLY, are safe, where you are wholly connected and part of a Caring, Intelligent Universe that is beyond time and beyond space.

Everything else -- wealth, fame, power -- is crap.

And Forgiveness?

In that Transcending Reality of Unbelievable Peace, of Belonging to the Caring and Intelligent Universe, you will find that Forgiveness has been replaced with something far, far better -- Rejoining that Transcending, very large and encompassing Family that you came from before you were born and to which you've returned.

Actually, again from my experience, that Family is always with you and me -- it's just that most of the time we are quite oblivious to its presence.

There is a big difference between not forgiving someone and hating or feeling revenge for someone.

If someone hurts me on purpose (minor physical or psychological abuse), I don't forgive, but neither do I hate and feel the need for revenge. I simply write those people out of my mind and my life. They no longer exist for me. Since I firmly believe in "what goes around comes around", they'll get their just due in time.

On the other hand, if someone were to purposefully inflict serious injury (physically, psychologically, or financially) on me or any of my family, I will make sure the person(s) pay for it dearly as much as is allowable under the law. Why on earth would I forgive such a person? This does not mean that I have to hate that person or that I have to "relive" the actions. Some of the synonyms found for the word "forgive" are "pardon, excuse, let off, exonerate, absolve". Those are not words I would use for killers, rapists, child abusers, terroists, etc.

Now if the injury was accidental, forigveness would be the logical choice.

On an international level it is much more desirable to forgive, because to punish the entire population of another country for the atrocities committed by some is immoral.

We must it seems to me find a mechanism for solving disputes in this world. If wars are often not started because of revenge, they certainly engender that feeling in the losers of war. They in turn, unleash that hatred upon someone else. Someone must take the first step in forgiveness, a recognition that at our core, all humans need and desire the same things in life.

Forgiveness compels us to move beyond the concept of "other" and allows us to relate to each human being as someone like ourselves in the basics. Foregiveness begets foregiveness. Revenge keeps us from growth and enlightenment, in fact it turns us in the opposite direction.

Our faiths, whatever they may be, generally call for this. It's time we started to obey, lest we continue this spiral into chaos and death.

We must it seems to me find a mechanism for solving disputes in this world. If wars are often not started because of revenge, they certainly engender that feeling in the losers of war. They in turn, unleash that hatred upon someone else. Someone must take the first step in forgiveness, a recognition that at our core, all humans need and desire the same things in life.

Forgiveness compels us to move beyond the concept of "other" and allows us to relate to each human being as someone like ourselves in the basics. Foregiveness begets foregiveness. Revenge keeps us from growth and enlightenment, in fact it turns us in the opposite direction.

Our faiths, whatever they may be, generally call for this. It's time we started to obey, lest we continue this spiral into chaos and death.

We must it seems to me find a mechanism for solving disputes in this world. If wars are often not started because of revenge, they certainly engender that feeling in the losers of war. They in turn, unleash that hatred upon someone else. Someone must take the first step in forgiveness, a recognition that at our core, all humans need and desire the same things in life.

Forgiveness compels us to move beyond the concept of "other" and allows us to relate to each human being as someone like ourselves in the basics. Foregiveness begets foregiveness. Revenge keeps us from growth and enlightenment, in fact it turns us in the opposite direction.

Our faiths, whatever they may be, generally call for this. It's time we started to obey, lest we continue this spiral into chaos and death.

Forgiveness is a central theme for anyone who is attempting to live a mindful life where every moment is free from selfishness and, instead, full of peace and joy. Without forgiving those who have “wronged” “you” then “you” are the one who suffers. In other words, since the psychological effects of not forgiving someone are to cause the non-forgiving person to suffer over past events or phenomena, true forgiveness frees the one forgiving from suffering due to memories of the past. This psychological “freedom from the past” through forgiveness allows us to live completely in “this” moment with a deep understanding that your part of the “kingdom of heaven” is always in the NOW. If you do not forgive, you cannot truly live in this moment which is where all things exists.
By teaching us to even forgive our enemies, wasn’t Jesus Christ showing us the way to truly live in the moment and not let past transgressions enter our psychological perceptions and, thereby, mask the moment. We all hate the actions of tyrants, terrorists, murderers, etc. but when we realize that the person behind the actions acted selfishly to achieve their “sinful” act, it is the victim who suffers further by “reliving” the past by not truly forgiving the act. To repeat part of an earlier post:

If one looks deeply into their existence, one can determine that humans are not separate entities from the rest of the universe. In other words, we as physical beings are intimately connected to other “things” in the universe. We cannot survive without water, oxygen, vegetables, fruit, etc. and, therefore, we are a “part” of the “whole” Our ability to distinguish ourselves from other humans or animals or plants is an evolutionary strategy for self survival. But when you combine our intellectual abilities of conceptualization with our self awareness, we “create” a complex selfish entity. Within our thoughts over our lifetimes, we create an entity of self that attempts to protect itself from others and attach itself to people and to things. In Christian terminology this selfishness is defined as sin. Selfish acts and thoughts always cause the selfish person to suffer. Also, since in true reality we are part of all things, when we are selfless in thoughts and acts, we are one with “god“. However, when we are selfish in thoughts and acts, we are separate from “god”.

To not forgive is to allow the “self” to be psychologically central and, thereby, disallow the condition of oneness with “god” (which is our true nature).

We should be forgive first. The United States has
committed atrocities also and can no longer claim
to be on moral high ground.

We should be forgive first. The United States has
committed atrocities also and can no longer claim
to be on moral high ground.

We should be forgive first. The United States has
committed atrocities also and can no longer claim
to be on moral high ground.

We should be forgive first. The United States has
committed atrocities also and can no longer claim
to be on moral high ground.

it takes a lot of " strong faith" and belief in God and the Word oF God to forgive. having said that, forgiving when you are strong and able to avenge the wrong that was doing to you, is not as you exhusting every possiblily to take revenge and fail at it, and then say ..maybe i should forgive!!!!.. it would be too late to call it forgivness:)

We should be forgive first. The United States has
committed atrocities also and can no longer claim
to be on moral high ground.

We should be forgive first. The United States has
committed atrocities also and can no longer claim
to be on moral high ground.

We should be forgive first. The United States has
committed atrocities also and can no longer claim
to be on moral high ground.

I think that the 12-step model, as pioneered by Alcoholics Anonymous, provides an excellent framework for atonement and forgiveness.

You take a "searching and fearless moral inventory" of your life. You acknowledge those you have hurt by your actions. You go to them and make amends. Whether they choose to forgive you is THEIR decision - not yours. Then, you make sure that you don't do it again. If you do, you resolve it quickly rather than letting it fester.

The same holds true for different ethnic and racial groups, especially those that have had centuries of hatred between them. It takes a lot of mediation, diplomacy, and a true desire by both parties to stop fighting and work together.