Readers’ Responses to Our Question (152)

Some Common Myths About Death:
Myth #1: Death is the natural end of life.
What do the scriptures say? Genesis 1:28; 2:17; Romans 5:12
Myth #2: God takes people in death to be with him.
What do the scriptures say? Job 34:15; Psalm 37:11, 29; 115:16
Myth #3: God takes little children to become angels.
What do the scriptures say? Psalm 51:5; 104:1,4; Hebrews 1:7, 14
Myth #4: Some people are tormented after death.
What do the scriptures say? Psalm 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10; Romans 6:23
Myth #5: Death means the permanent end of our existence.
What do the scriptures say? Job 14:14, 15; John 3:16; 17:3; Acts 24:15

personally i don't really believe in afterlife. half of me believes but the other half is uncertain. I do believe that you can have some kind of an accountance with a spirit but not to the point where you see the person standing right in front of you. like Gallo said, an afterlife could be a place where your spirit goes to start over to live forever and when we die, our body may no longer be alive but our spirits will continue to do so. i don't know for sure if their is an afterlife,but we'll just have to wait and see when our time comes.

personally i don't really believe in afterlife. half of me believes but the other half is uncertain. I do believe that you can have some kind of an accountance with a spirit but not to the point where you see the person standing right in front of you. like Gallo said, an afterlife could be a place where your spirit goes to start over to live forever and when we die, our body may no longer be alive but our spirits will continue to do so. i don't know for sure if their is an afterlife,but we'll just have to wait and see when our time comes.

personally i don't really believe in afterlife. half of me believes but the other half is uncertain. I do believe that you can have some kind of an accountance with a spirit but not to the point where you see the person standing right in front of you. like Gallo said, an afterlife could be a place where your spirit goes to start over to live forever and when we die, our body may no longer be alive but our spirits will continue to do so. i don't know for sure if their is an afterlife,but we'll just have to wait and see when our time comes.

personally i don't really believe in afterlife. half of me believes but the other half is uncertain. I do believe that you can have some kind of an accountance with a spirit but not to the point where you see the person standing right in front of you. like Gallo said, an afterlife could be a place where your spirit goes to start over to live forever and when we die, our body may no longer be alive but our spirits will continue to do so. i don't know for sure if their is an afterlife,but we'll just have to wait and see when our time comes.

I personally don't believe that there is life after death, however depressing that seems. I think people want this life after death thing so that they can start over and live forever. When we die, I think we leave the physical world, so it is impossible to return. The only person that has passed away in my lifetime is my uncle, who died when I was only three years old. His spirit has never visited me, but he has appeared in a couple of my dreams. I can't be sure that there is an afterlife, but all I know for now is that when I die, I will then find out for sure.

"When people come to accept their story as the only ‘grown up and mature’ one, they tend almost reflexively to become intolerant and judgmental of others."

As one (indeed you) might purport that no one is without such superstitions, I would contend likewise that no one is without a threshold for intolerance.

Intolerance of gobbledygook is a virtue. We've been far too tolerant of the media promulgating out and out lies in the interest of feigning political balance. We've tolerated a small minority of way-kooked-out end timers who wield far too much influence on our foreign policy. It's time people of reason stand together and turn back this torrent of nonsense. If that be intolerance, I'll wear that badge with honor.

That said, if it takes belief in an invisible patriarch who created the entire universe, and further, belief that such an omnipotent being has nothing better to do than monitor each and every individual in this rather insignificant corner of a vast universe, just in order to determine whether to torture or reward said individuals after they're dead -- if it takes belief in all that in order for individuals to act with morality and compassion, then by all means, y'all have yourselves a heapin' helpin' of it.

Just keep it to yourselves is all I ask, because when your beliefs start impinging on my rights, you're in for some "intolerance" from me, and increasingly, a nation fed up.

Dear Lorenzo

I share your sense of joy. Thank you for sharing your wonderful insight. You did say about life after death as being;

"the hardest to attain".

I totally agree with you from the many posts I see here but truly it is also the easiest for it takes only a firm belief in the realm of the unknown. We live this life either as it being a mystical magical life or otherwise.

You are also right that God is Pure Unconditional Love available to LL of His Creation. His reach is limitless. It is us who either confine Him/Her?it to our own very limited understanding or even deny Him totally because we rely purely on our physical intellect, as you rightly noted. Our ego stands in the way, but His glory overcomes our illusion and this is defined by many as Hell. Yet in truth it is Heavenly. Then again to one who understands this unlimited Love, it is ALL Love. there is nothing else.

Peace be with you brother.

It's your perogative to believe what you want about death, and if it helps you get through the day, I don't think anyone will complain.

But to claim this belief as a great act of 'faith' and thus justified and a force for good in your life is an embarassment to your intellect.

Former Christian Youth Minister's Path to Islam
http://youtube.com/watch?v=oRMfnHZEGMg

Why must there be an afterlife? Is it so you can go through life feeling good about yourself and what comes after?

No, there isn't an afterlife. I know that will make a lot of people unhappy, and will generate plenty of posts about how unfortunate I am, but there it is.

Man has searched for an answer to this question since they became self aware. The question of an afterlife is one of the prime reasons for the development of religion in every single culture. The notion of what happens to us had changed over the eons, but the message has always been the same: You need not fear oblivion because there just HAS to be something. Unfortunately, the only real afterlife is the lasting impression we leave with our children, and other loved ones. The ways in which we have influenced them will carry on in hundreds of small ways for generations to come. There won't however be a grand meeting in heaven, or some paradise to enjoy. And why must there be an afterlife? If there is nothingness beyond, then there is nothing to fear.

Please Dear God, Allah, Bubba, whatever-you're-called, please, please put me in a time machine and send me back to an age of disease, of no electricity, of wigs, poor food, of slavery, even.

Yes, send me back to The Age Of Reason.

I think the WaPo Faith columns are missing the important arguments of our post-modern times:

--How many angels can dance on the head of the pin?

--Why will the poor always be with us?

--Why is one God better than another? Examples please.

Look, everyone seems to have their "unique" stories about loved ones who passed on, stories about brushes with death. These are legitimate expressions of stuff we can't really explain right now.

I bristle when we start applying these deeply personal narratives about faith to public policy decisions.

We've had six years of an allegedly "religious" President who's done nothing but harm, serious harm to the United States of America, to New Orleans, to Iraq, to the world. And this bozo gets his "credibility" from how damn good a Christian he is?

A little more than nine years ago I suffered a brain aneurysm and stroke. The doctors said I was a vegetable. They proceeded with a nine hour craniotomy to stop the flow of blood from my brain, and said I would not make it, or would survive as a vegetable.(Which my family always said I was anyways)I survived the surgery, despite dying on the table, and was in a coma for three days. Sometime between going out and coming to three days later, I stood in Heaven, a a stone wall, with mist seeping out from under it, and I heard a voice tell me to look down at myself. I did, and I was empty, hollow. Suddenly, from all sides,I saw and felt the wonderful and magnificent love of the Holy Spirit, beautiful golden rays of love is the only way I could describe it, and it filled my empty spirit and gave me new life. It was a beautful and wonderful love, and love is too cheap a word for what I experienced, it was so magnificent, and I knew this love was from God for every person, not just me. I turned and saw Christ, who came to me, and I hugged him, and he said nothing to me, but turned me to see something he had blessed me with. It was my mother, whose name was Leah, who died at age 53 from a brain aneurysm, as did her mother and her grandmother, all on the Jewish side of the family. Next to my mother was my niece, also named Leah, the granddaughter of my mother, who had never met in life. Leah was killed in a Ford Explorer rollover while the family was on vacation, one year before my surgery. Grandmother and granddaughter looked at one another with a look that they knew something I didn't know, and it was good, as they smiled. I went to go over to them, but Christ put his arm on my shoulder and turned me to the right. I saw through whatever was between there and here, I saw my house, I saw the grains of sand on teh beach next to my house. Why did the Lord allow me to see such love, see his power to restore my life, and let me see my mother and daughter? Partially, I was going through a very traumatic life experience, with police and courts, and mostly because my sister and husband had grieved and prayed over the sudden loss of their daughter. And because I was single I was available, and would be one answer to the prayers of my family for Leah. I awoke on that third day, which I realize the similarity to the story of Christ's resurrection, and no one believed I could awake. I could move and was no vegetable. But I cried. For several days, until my father arrived, and I shared with him what happened, and we cried. We told one friend who had been at the hospital the whole three days praying for me, as family was across country. We told no one else. Three months later, at Christmas, the doctors allowed me to travel on a plane, and I flew to NY and went up to Ct to my sister's home. I found my brother-in-law outside, making sure the pool was covered, and I shared with him what happened, and how I sw his daughter, Leah. We cried, and we went and shared with my sister. The Lord allowed me to die, allowed me to live, allowed me to return normal, and allowed the grief of my sister to be tempered by the knowledge that her daughter was in the best of places. No dream is so long lasting, no dream is so touching, and no dream has the result of three days of tears because I stood in the presence of the Lord. The scripture says "the natural man doesn't understand the things of the spirit," and as an example, here on the Washington Post blog, is this discourse. Chose the spiritual and you will understand all, otherwise you sit only in the world of knowledge of the world that is visible, and so questions always come to mind about lie and death. You may be as smart as Einstein, but there is a far greater wealth of knowledge right before us, it is free. But it is the hardest to attain because we, as intelligent men and women, must lay down our pride in self, in intellect, and yield to the Lord. When that is laid down, the Lord will show so much. If I offered a free ticket to Hawaii, anyone would take it, here I share a free ticket to knowledge you never knew existed. I didn't, but the Lord showed me, through the prayers of others, what life is, and what death is. I didn't see gold roads and mansions, as tv preachers tell us, and the Lord asked for no money, in fact asked for nothing. But what I saw is there for you, ask and you will receive, seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened. Those are scriptures, but they are real, and so powerful , and so loving, and so beautiful. There is an old Jewish expression my grandmother used to say, "It couldn't hoit." THis writing was not an attempt to convert anyone, but to share something I found out, after being a thick-headed, proud man, who found the world I had built was definitely only temporary, and when we put our faith in the things of this world, it is temporary solution. Someone wrote to enjoy the now - and the Lord would of course have us enjoy the now. He created the world for us to enjoy. The tv preachers and right-wing evangelists are so wrong, and do not represent Him, only themselves and selfish interests, and of course, they seek to keep you locked into misery so you choose to follow them. But choose the Lord and see great things for yourself, you don't need a preacher or an evangelist, the LOrd is capable of doing it himself. If we ask. I apologize if anyoone is offended, I share only that others share my joy, and that they are spared the misery I lived through. We live. We die. But our livess are extended forever. Thanks.

A little more than nine years ago I suffered a brain aneurysm and stroke. The doctors said I was a vegetable. They proceeded with a nine hour craniotomy to stop the flow of blood from my brain, and said I would not make it, or would survive as a vegetable.(Which my family always said I was anyways)I survived the surgery, despite dying on the table, and was in a coma for three days. Sometime between going out and coming to three days later, I stood in Heaven, a a stone wall, with mist seeping out from under it, and I heard a voice tell me to look down at myself. I did, and I was empty, hollow. Suddenly, from all sides,I saw and felt the wonderful and magnificent love of the Holy Spirit, beautiful golden rays of love is the only way I could describe it, and it filled my empty spirit and gave me new life. It was a beautful and wonderful love, and love is too cheap a word for what I experienced, it was so magnificent, and I knew this love was from God for every person, not just me. I turned and saw Christ, who came to me, and I hugged him, and he said nothing to me, but turned me to see something he had blessed me with. It was my mother, whose name was Leah, who died at age 53 from a brain aneurysm, as did her mother and her grandmother, all on the Jewish side of the family. Next to my mother was my niece, also named Leah, the granddaughter of my mother, who had never met in life. Leah was killed in a Ford Explorer rollover while the family was on vacation, one year before my surgery. Grandmother and granddaughter looked at one another with a look that they knew something I didn't know, and it was good, as they smiled. I went to go over to them, but Christ put his arm on my shoulder and turned me to the right. I saw through whatever was between there and here, I saw my house, I saw the grains of sand on teh beach next to my house. Why did the Lord allow me to see such love, see his power to restore my life, and let me see my mother and daughter? Partially, I was going through a very traumatic life experience, with police and courts, and mostly because my sister and husband had grieved and prayed over the sudden loss of their daughter. And because I was single I was available, and would be one answer to the prayers of my family for Leah. I awoke on that third day, which I realize the similarity to the story of Christ's resurrection, and no one believed I could awake. I could move and was no vegetable. But I cried. For several days, until my father arrived, and I shared with him what happened, and we cried. We told one friend who had been at the hospital the whole three days praying for me, as family was across country. We told no one else. Three months later, at Christmas, the doctors allowed me to travel on a plane, and I flew to NY and went up to Ct to my sister's home. I found my brother-in-law outside, making sure the pool was covered, and I shared with him what happened, and how I sw his daughter, Leah. We cried, and we went and shared with my sister. The Lord allowed me to die, allowed me to live, allowed me to return normal, and allowed the grief of my sister to be tempered by the knowledge that her daughter was in the best of places. No dream is so long lasting, no dream is so touching, and no dream has the result of three days of tears because I stood in the presence of the Lord. The scripture says "the natural man doesn't understand the things of the spirit," and as an example, here on the Washington Post blog, is this discourse. Chose the spiritual and you will understand all, otherwise you sit only in the world of knowledge of the world that is visible, and so questions always come to mind about lie and death. You may be as smart as Einstein, but there is a far greater wealth of knowledge right before us, it is free. But it is the hardest to attain because we, as intelligent men and women, must lay down our pride in self, in intellect, and yield to the Lord. When that is laid down, the Lord will show so much. If I offered a free ticket to Hawaii, anyone would take it, here I share a free ticket to knowledge you never knew existed. I didn't, but the Lord showed me, through the prayers of others, what life is, and what death is. I didn't see gold roads and mansions, as tv preachers tell us, and the Lord asked for no money, in fact asked for nothing. But what I saw is there for you, ask and you will receive, seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened. Those are scriptures, but they are real, and so powerful , and so loving, and so beautiful. There is an old Jewish expression my grandmother used to say, "It couldn't hoit." THis writing was not an attempt to convert anyone, but to share something I found out, after being a thick-headed, proud man, who found the world I had built was definitely only temporary, and when we put our faith in the things of this world, it is temporary solution. Someone wrote to enjoy the now - and the Lord would of course have us enjoy the now. He created the world for us to enjoy. The tv preachers and right-wing evangelists are so wrong, and do not represent Him, only themselves and selfish interests, and of course, they seek to keep you locked into misery so you choose to follow them. But choose the Lord and see great things for yourself, you don't need a preacher or an evangelist, the LOrd is capable of doing it himself. If we ask. I apologize if anyoone is offended, I share only that others share my joy, and that they are spared the misery I lived through. We live. We die. But our livess are extended forever. Thanks.

If hunger, thirst, illness, and brain damage make us less conscious, why wouldn't our consciousness be destroyed utterly by death?

To be alive is to be a collection of cells, an arrangement determined by evolution. For example, our vision is binocular because we have the close-set eyes of predators. Will our vision be thus after our bodies have rotted away? Do those of you who believe that there is "life" after death imagine yourselves to be like you are now, not seeing what is behind you or on the other side of the planet, or do you imagine yourselves to be conscious of things in ways not related to physical perceptual systems? Are you a gaseous cloud? Whatever you imagine exists in your imagination. There is no evidence to support this most wishful thinking. Live your short lives as best you can.

Yes I do believe in an afterlife. What it will be like?, how will I experience it? I don't know. However I don't focus often on what is to come but I use my time and talents to address what is before me now. I live by a very simple maxim and that is to do the best I can for as many as I can as I live out my existence and I leave the judgement of my life's work and its meaning to my God. I profess a strong and vibrant faith in God, not in Christianity, not in Islam or Judaism, Buhdism or Deism,etc. I try to avoid the trap of dogma and canon law so that I might be able to experience the wonders of life unfiltered by the lenses of organized religion.

"He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also, he has put eternity into man's heart, yet so that he cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end" (Ecclesiastes 3:11).

"To / All Brothers & Sisters... Good people to knowing God one must be equal with God,not the grovling snivling fools that you having become. You but allow others to brainwash as abuse that you become as servants to man an prisoner unto their deceit cunning,God having no need or wish that you come a begging as a dog,unto its master to obey on call.Get of your knees,stand before God as your equal,thus winning your freedom. YOUR BROTHER in ARMS....LUCIFER xxx X"

Ah... I see that Dick Cheney has finally learned how to post.

Is there life after death? Because what we call the soul is a process, it ceases to be when life stops: it is not a thing that can be transported to heaven, hell, sheol, purgatory, or rowed across the River Styx. Therefore, there is no life after death.

Jeff:

The evidence doesn't come in until you die. To your way of thinking, the experiment is not over until you take your last breath. There will be evidence then, and there is evidence now. You've just decided not to consider any of it unlike the billions and billions who are staking their hopes on the one who has been resurrected and still lives.

The essence of most “religious” teachings is that consciousness is the ground of being instead of material. Of course, with the Popper-esque paradigm dominating most of the current scientific thought, materialistic science views consciousness as merely an epiphenomenon of the material brain and no more. Clearly, this perspective limits the interpretation of phenomena such as near death experiences, out of body experiences, telepathy, etc. With the recent findings in quantum mechanics, however, this purely material paradigm is becoming outdated and lacking in explanatory theories. Consciousness appears to be much more than merely the epiphenomena that materialist scientist claim. To determine if there is an afterlife one must extrapolate and theorise from different findings and theories not merely rely on one type of method of inquiry, I.e. material science.

I think that many enlightened mystics of human history have attempted to teach other people the methods necessary to be enlightened but their teachings have been co-opted by the “followers” who are self interested, egocentric and greedy people. The result of these organizers of religions is a “belief” system instead of a pure “practice” as you see in Zen. Simply “believe in this dogma and you will be rewarded” is the resulting misconception of many religion’s teachings. Jesus Christ seemed to be teaching his followers that they should be one with God and give up their entity of self in each moment. (See Matthew 6:28, Luke 17:21, John 15:13 and John17:21-23) This view seems to be similar to Buddhist thought (except the concept of God which could be interpreted as a personification of ultimate reality). Of course the followers of Christ misinterpreted his teachings in order to fulfill prophecy and to create a self-interested entity of “church”.

Can we integrate the modern theoretical physics and the essence of the teachings of Jesus Christ, the Great Buddha, etc.? If the recent interpretations of quantum mechanics are correct, then the integration has begun!

This is not a question to be answered intellectually, it is a question to be answered by Faith or lack thereof.

This is not a question to be answered intellectually, it is a question to be answered by Faith or lack thereof.

The Q about life after death has several As

1.If we define birth(begning)and death(end) as the boundaries between which life on earth as we know of exisists,then there is no life after death
2.If we let our imagination to go wild there are a host of As from various religions to suit your desres.If you do not like none of those As,there is no reasion I can think of that prohibits you to makeup one that calms down your anxiety on life after death.

The Q about life after death has several As

1.If we define birth(begning)and death(end) as the boundaries between which life on earth as we know of exisists,then there is no life after death
2.If we let our imagination to go wild there are a host of As from various religions to suit your desres.If you do not like none of those As,there is no reasion I can think of that prohibits you to makeup one that calms down your anxiety on life after death.

The Q about life after death has several As

1.If we define birth(begning)and death(end) as the boundaries between which life on earth as we know of exisists,then there is no life after death
2.If we let our imagination to go wild there are a host of As from various religions to suit your desres.If you do not like none of those As,there is no reasion I can think of that prohibits you to makeup one that calms down your anxiety on life after death.

mo

I'm really inspired by your CUCKOO'S poetry.

But who could dare to make the CUCKOO'S to understand, where they even don't want to look or listen, accept just what they think is the purpose of life and all they want to do :

just eat, drop, multiply and die just ,eat, drop, multiply and then die infinite.

To / All Brothers & Sisters... Good people to knowing God one must be equal with God,not the grovling snivling fools that you having become. You but allow others to brainwash as abuse that you become as servants to man an prisoner unto their deceit cunning,God having no need or wish that you come a begging as a dog,unto its master to obey on call.Get of your knees,stand before God as your equal,thus winning your freedom. YOUR BROTHER in ARMS....LUCIFER xxx X

Anonymous

The verse of Quran you refer (Qur'an 86:6-7)
"He is created from a drop emitted.Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs,"
is for both men and women for your information.It is refering towards the areas where it proceeds and not pointing out the organs in which it is made.
And the above chapter is not about this particular topic.

As you SAID:

"I could have sworn that sperm came from testicles."

I guess in your opinion women have testicles too.
You better keep your in pants if you have any??

I suggest you and couple of other like you, stop personal comments and try to argue with facts and figures and bring out the answeres of the asked questions or pointed out stated proofs in my posts, if you are capable of any knowledge!

Anonymous

The verse of Quran you refer (Qur'an 86:6-7)
"He is created from a drop emitted.Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs,"
is for both men and women for your information.It is refering towards the areas where it proceeds and not pointing out the organs in which it is made.
And the above chapter is not about this particular topic.

As you SAID:

"I could have sworn that sperm came from testicles."

I guess in your opinion women have testicles too.
You better keep your in pants if you have any??

I suggest you and couple of other like you, stop personal comments and try to argue with facts and figures and bring out the answeres of the asked questions or pointed out stated proofs, if you are capable of any knowledge!

Lucifer,

I obviously did not create you to be literate or a genius. Keep mocking me and I'll take away your internet privelages.

Back to hell where you belong dingleberry!

I dont think God as gives an hoot how hard it be for the human being,humanity ever having to get on knees as begging.Never given answers to their suffering,life an puzzle not of human making.Its time humanity got of its knees stop the bowing as the begging before God.Rather they start to demanding answers, not alike dogs beg for such. Humanity having been but trampled on by God for mere sport,it time God be on knees for a change bowing to humanity...LUCIFER

cuckoo,s nest.
deep down in the meadoland,a cuckoo established a huge world wide farm where is filled with cows and buffalos, cuckoo just let the animals eat drop and multiply and die,just eat, drop and multiply and then die none but eat,dung,multiply and then die,just eat, drop, multiply and die just ,eat, drop, multiply and then die infinite.

1-is cuckoo in his right mind?why?how come and since when and how is that?if every human being becam as the above cuckoo how this universe will be looking like????????????????????????????.
2-what kind of logic possessed cuckoo?is it the logic of the dream ?or the logic of the delusion?
3-where cuckoo recived his dullness from ?
4-what is the difference between cuckoo the bird and cuckoo the human who belive that this life is just a place where (human beings)work,eat,drop,multiply and then die infinite?
5-what is the significance of this life if there is no hearafter?
6-what is the big significance difference between animals who they work,eat,drop,multiply and then die and mankind who also work,eat,drop,multiply and then die?
7-cuckoo,s world is worth of intensive study!!!!!.

Let us go back to the question: have you been visited by a deceased relative, etc.? Many people I know have had this experience. It is usually positive. Usually, it is not of a religious nature; out of body experiences when someone is ill or dying and suddently the person is given life as an option, is another question altogether. We need to keep our god, g-d, allah, jesus, yeshua, etc. out of our thought processes when discussing the metaphysical realm. We simply need to think for ourselves. And since this subject is an enormous one to tackle (we being mere human be-comings), the subject should be left only to whatever, whoever, or IT that created us and our perfect world that has now become imperfect and corrupt. Consider all of us as the world's experiment to see if we are worthy of the gift of life. As the killing rages on in all facets of our daily lives: natural disasters, wars, illnesses, mass starvation, murder, genocide, etc., one would conclude that we are not worthy of continued existence on this planet. We don't own it, it owns us and we are abusive and unkind to our planet and our fellow man because of money, oil, or other kinds of wealth which we use to "control" the majority of this planet's poorer souls. We should be dishing out spiritual (not religious) feasts to all mankind in a universal manner, without pushing any one kind of creed down someone's throat. Religion preys on the poor and uninformed.
Therefore, we cannot answer such a question as to whether or not we believe in an afterlife. It is above our understanding and we can continue to hope and pray to our "heavenly father" that it is true, but we can never "know." Faith alone simply does not provide an answer.

Hi henry- as promised, i have a minute so ill tell my little story-

when my little brother was in the hospital dying i was visiting him and he was seated in his bed and got startled and asked me,"did you see that?"
i didnt know what he was talking about and said,"no honey, what do you mean?"

he said very clearly ,"there- behind me"
i looked and just saw a wall

he said,"there it is again", and was twisting around to look behind him on both sides, turning his head to look at each side"

"when i look at the side in my peripheral vision i see it"

"what honey?"

"that big black man standing behind me"
"there he is again! you can't see him??"

i didnt see anything.

the conversation went on- but for brevity ill end it there
i stayed as long as they would let me and left around 11-midnightish

i thought about it on the way home- he had been lucid and clear throughout his whole illness-
i thought maybe he was drugged up- but his precise pronunciation of the word peripheral belied that he was 'out of it'

i found out the next day that he had died about 2 hours later.

it wasnt until i related this last conversation we ever had, when asked (it being distinctive because it was our last) that i related it- and
someone remarked that it must have been the angel of death.

i dont think in those terms and it sent a vast chill through out me.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

my grandmother used to tell a stroy about my grandfather, after he died- she heard the grandfather clock in the foyer being set every night at the time my grandfather used to set it-
it kept running although she wouldnt touch it
she was spooked and never went to see- but after a while it stopped and she never reset it so it wound down eventually stopping forever
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

ive had alot of dreams about relatives-
many quite remarkable telling me things i couldnt possibly know- and many many so called supernatural expreiences-
but they are not related to death per se- so ill decline from elaborating.
peace

I wonder why we have to decide on this since it can't be proven. I see the threat of hell as an attempt by the institutional church to keep us in line. I prefer to believe that we were given a freedom to believe (or not) and to live the precepts of a spiritual life (or not) with the understanding that the consequences of our choices are more likely to be meted out in this life than in the hereafter. In other words, we are challenged to live the best life we can without the threat of hell or reward of heaven. This is a mature faith, not a dictate of religious authority.

“Eternity is a very long time – especially near the end.”

-- Woody Allen

“Eternity is a very long time – especially near the end.”

-- Woody Allen

JOHN DUDDLEY.....Your post having come to the attention of Allah as the Almighty,hence, the responce.To reach conclusion the world a lousy place,is to but proving the development of your brain,resulting in challange unto the Almighty. It may surprise you God in agreement,reminding. The creation of the universe be that it sustain the human form,in turn through heart as brain cometh understanding as experience of the very essence of creation,such the true purpose being in this lousy world.May YOU wish having STRONG experiences as understaning for the convincing. Be it understood that experiences understanding beyond capability of the brain can cause great great damage, hence be not recommened,rather a steady progress that comfortable for the brain. The essence of creation powerful, as a strong medicine best taken with caution,it by far best that Spiritual Development, understanding, as experience, BEING BALANCED... .. .

Reality Check

I have had enough. When will our elected officials stop pandering to the religious right and truly represent the constitution and the principels upon which we were founded. All of these politicians are more concerned with votes then standing up for the truth. I venture that most Americans are of the belief that we were founded as a Christian nation, what else could you think. Schools imply it, if not teach it, some Priests and Preachers would have you believe that Jesus called the roll at the Constitutional Convention. Politicians like the President and members of the House and Senate knowingly at the expense of reality invoke these untruths to get votes. Conservative talking heads like Bill O'Reilly and Sean Hannity flat out say we were formed as a christian nation and wave it to stoke the flames of ignorance, all the while claiming that they are patriots. The old adage definitely applies, that if you tell a lie long enough it becomes true.

The Democrats and the "liberal media" are just as guilty, if not more so for not calling one another out on these issues. Why does the government keep trying to spread democracy around the world, when we can't even discuss it out loud and admit the true principles we were founded on. If we as Americans can not get together and nail down who we really are as a people and have our government state out loud it's fundamental principles because they fear a religious out cry, then we have grossly failed the test before us. I guarantee not one candidate would broach this subject out of fear of pissing off the zealots and not getting votes. One of the main things our enlightened Founding Fathers railed against was religion, this is a fact. Not the practice of religion, far from it, they would carefully protect every ones right to choose his or her religion what ever it might be. But of it's place in government, to them, it had none. Today we run rough shod over the CONSTITUTION and BILL OF RIGHTS like they were an advice column or list of helpful hints. How do we expect to help other countries with democracy when we are not honest enough to truly defend and represent our own as it was originally conceived. This is the true shame of our nation.

Time for a reality check, a large number of the most famous and involved members of the Founding Fathers were anything but Christian, frankly they had a great deal of disdain for it. I will reference some of the most relevant Founding Fathers, and ironically these are the ones religious groups frequently use to illustrate their point. (WASHINGTON, ADAMS, JEFFERSON, MADISON, FRANKLIN, THOMAS PAINE ETC) What's truly alarming is that only one of two things can be true in this case 1) that the standard bearers of the Constitution we elect and appoint to positions of authority today know the facts of history and still continue to pander to zealots and that's scary or 2) they truly don't know their history and actually believe we were formed as a Christian government. That is stunning.

How far we have fallen from the hopes of what the Founders created. The church and the involvement of religion in the government was exactly what they didn't want. Now religious leaders, conservatives and liberals alike have taken it and twisted to suit they're constituents beliefs and I wager not one of the candidates would have the integrity to discuss it publicly or defend the words of the Founding Fathers.

The bottom line is this. By ignoring and betraying the true nature and magnitude of what the Founders conceived and realized, we rob them of and hide from the world their true genius and vision and there just due. Even sadder we have robbed ourselves of the true democracy they envisioned. These great men studied the history of nations and the repression of the peoples of the world and realized the one common denominator was the involvement of the church and religion with government. It has been referenced in each of their writings on countless occasions, often with disgust.

The vision and insight possesed by these great free thinkers is as evident now as it ever was. Imagine if we had carried that enlightened standard of reason, intellect, cause and effect forward and truly nurtured it and carried to it's deserved place, there just might have been a lot less death and destruction in the world in the name of God. If we followed and respected that helpful hint list I mentioned earlier, things might be going a little smoother now. Had we actually let each other live and let live regardless of religious belief and stopped trying to convince each other that we each had the best invisible guy we would definitely be better off.

Before you react angrily and lash out with some inane emotional argument, count to ten and read a history book. Then find some documented facts and present a cogent and factual argument. If the gist of your argument is that I'm going to burn in hell or something along those lines, save it. I said fact based and cogent.

Let me stress that I am not anti-religion because that is the first argument i will get. I am however anti-lie. America is my country and I truly love it. I am angry because we are not defending what it stands for, we are cowering from the very thing they despised and risked there lives to defeat, intolerance, ignorance and repression. Here are some quotes to illustrate my point, say Amen, when somebody sounds like a christian .

God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there never will be any liberal science in the world.-- John Adams, "this awful blashpemy" that he refers to is the myth of the Incarnation of Christ

The Treaty of TripoliSigned by John Adams
"As the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen [Muslims] ... it is declared ... that no pretext arising from religious opinion shall ever product an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.... "The United States is not a Christian nation any more than it is a Jewish or a Mohammedan nation." -- Treaty of Tripoli (1797), carried unanimously by the Senate and signed into law by John Adams

The Church of Rome has made it an article of faith that no man can be saved out of their church, and all other religious sects approach this dreadful opinion in proportion to their ignorance, and the influence of ignorant or wicked priests.-- John Adams, Diary and Autobiography

The priesthood have, in all ancient nations, nearly monopolized learning.... And, even since the Reformation, when or where has existed a Protestant or dissenting sect who would tolerate A FREE INQUIRY? The blackest billingsgate, the most ungentlemanly insolence, the most yahooish brutality is patiently endured, countenanced, propagated, and applauded. But touch a solemn truth in collision with a dogma of a sect, though capable of the clearest proof, and you will soon find you have disturbed a nest, and the hornets will swarm about your legs and hands, and fly into your face and eyes.-- John Adams, letter to John Taylor

The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles?-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, June 20, 1815

I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson

Government being, among other purposes, instituted to protect the consciences of men from oppression, it certainly is the duty of Rulers, not only to abstain from it themselves, but according to their stations, to prevent it in others.-- George Washington, letter to the Religious Society called the Quakers, September 28,1789

"I have diligently perused every line that Washington ever gave to the public, and I do not find one expression in which he pledges, himself as a believer in Christianity. I think anyone who will candidly do as I have done, will come to the conclusion that he was a Deist and nothing more."-- The Reverend Bird Wilson, an Episcopal minister in Albany, New York

The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.-- Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781-82

The civil government ... functions with complete success ... by the total separation of the Church from the State.-- James Madison, 1819

Congress should not establish a religion, and enforce the legal observation of it by law, nor compel men to worship God in any Manner contrary to their conscience.-- James Madison, explaining to Congress during the House Debate what the First Amendment means to him

Indeed, Mr. Jefferson, what could be invented to debase the ancient Christianism which Greeks, Romans, Hebrews and Christian factions, above all the Catholics, have not fraudulently imposed upon the public? Miracles after miracles have rolled down in torrents.-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, December 3, 1813

bobleddy.blogspot.com

Posted by Bob Leddy at 8:12 AM

Reality Check

I have had enough. When will our elected officials stop pandering to the religious right and truly represent the constitution and the principels upon which we were founded. All of these politicians are more concerned with votes then standing up for the truth. I venture that most Americans are of the belief that we were founded as a Christian nation, what else could you think. Schools imply it, if not teach it, some Priests and Preachers would have you believe that Jesus called the roll at the Constitutional Convention. Politicians like the President and members of the House and Senate knowingly at the expense of reality invoke these untruths to get votes. Conservative talking heads like Bill O'Reilly and Sean Hannity flat out say we were formed as a christian nation and wave it to stoke the flames of ignorance, all the while claiming that they are patriots. The old adage definitely applies, that if you tell a lie long enough it becomes true.

The Democrats and the "liberal media" are just as guilty, if not more so for not calling one another out on these issues. Why does the government keep trying to spread democracy around the world, when we can't even discuss it out loud and admit the true principles we were founded on. If we as Americans can not get together and nail down who we really are as a people and have our government state out loud it's fundamental principles because they fear a religious out cry, then we have grossly failed the test before us. I guarantee not one candidate would broach this subject out of fear of pissing off the zealots and not getting votes. One of the main things our enlightened Founding Fathers railed against was religion, this is a fact. Not the practice of religion, far from it, they would carefully protect every ones right to choose his or her religion what ever it might be. But of it's place in government, to them, it had none. Today we run rough shod over the CONSTITUTION and BILL OF RIGHTS like they were an advice column or list of helpful hints. How do we expect to help other countries with democracy when we are not honest enough to truly defend and represent our own as it was originally conceived. This is the true shame of our nation.

Time for a reality check, a large number of the most famous and involved members of the Founding Fathers were anything but Christian, frankly they had a great deal of disdain for it. I will reference some of the most relevant Founding Fathers, and ironically these are the ones religious groups frequently use to illustrate their point. (WASHINGTON, ADAMS, JEFFERSON, MADISON, FRANKLIN, THOMAS PAINE ETC) What's truly alarming is that only one of two things can be true in this case 1) that the standard bearers of the Constitution we elect and appoint to positions of authority today know the facts of history and still continue to pander to zealots and that's scary or 2) they truly don't know their history and actually believe we were formed as a Christian government. That is stunning.

How far we have fallen from the hopes of what the Founders created. The church and the involvement of religion in the government was exactly what they didn't want. Now religious leaders, conservatives and liberals alike have taken it and twisted to suit they're constituents beliefs and I wager not one of the candidates would have the integrity to discuss it publicly or defend the words of the Founding Fathers.

The bottom line is this. By ignoring and betraying the true nature and magnitude of what the Founders conceived and realized, we rob them of and hide from the world their true genius and vision and there just due. Even sadder we have robbed ourselves of the true democracy they envisioned. These great men studied the history of nations and the repression of the peoples of the world and realized the one common denominator was the involvement of the church and religion with government. It has been referenced in each of their writings on countless occasions, often with disgust.

The vision and insight possesed by these great free thinkers is as evident now as it ever was. Imagine if we had carried that enlightened standard of reason, intellect, cause and effect forward and truly nurtured it and carried to it's deserved place, there just might have been a lot less death and destruction in the world in the name of God. If we followed and respected that helpful hint list I mentioned earlier, things might be going a little smoother now. Had we actually let each other live and let live regardless of religious belief and stopped trying to convince each other that we each had the best invisible guy we would definitely be better off.

Before you react angrily and lash out with some inane emotional argument, count to ten and read a history book. Then find some documented facts and present a cogent and factual argument. If the gist of your argument is that I'm going to burn in hell or something along those lines, save it. I said fact based and cogent.

Let me stress that I am not anti-religion because that is the first argument i will get. I am however anti-lie. America is my country and I truly love it. I am angry because we are not defending what it stands for, we are cowering from the very thing they despised and risked there lives to defeat, intolerance, ignorance and repression. Here are some quotes to illustrate my point, say Amen, when somebody sounds like a christian .

God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there never will be any liberal science in the world.-- John Adams, "this awful blashpemy" that he refers to is the myth of the Incarnation of Christ

The Treaty of TripoliSigned by John Adams
"As the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen [Muslims] ... it is declared ... that no pretext arising from religious opinion shall ever product an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.... "The United States is not a Christian nation any more than it is a Jewish or a Mohammedan nation." -- Treaty of Tripoli (1797), carried unanimously by the Senate and signed into law by John Adams

The Church of Rome has made it an article of faith that no man can be saved out of their church, and all other religious sects approach this dreadful opinion in proportion to their ignorance, and the influence of ignorant or wicked priests.-- John Adams, Diary and Autobiography

The priesthood have, in all ancient nations, nearly monopolized learning.... And, even since the Reformation, when or where has existed a Protestant or dissenting sect who would tolerate A FREE INQUIRY? The blackest billingsgate, the most ungentlemanly insolence, the most yahooish brutality is patiently endured, countenanced, propagated, and applauded. But touch a solemn truth in collision with a dogma of a sect, though capable of the clearest proof, and you will soon find you have disturbed a nest, and the hornets will swarm about your legs and hands, and fly into your face and eyes.-- John Adams, letter to John Taylor

The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles?-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, June 20, 1815

I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson

Government being, among other purposes, instituted to protect the consciences of men from oppression, it certainly is the duty of Rulers, not only to abstain from it themselves, but according to their stations, to prevent it in others.-- George Washington, letter to the Religious Society called the Quakers, September 28,1789

"I have diligently perused every line that Washington ever gave to the public, and I do not find one expression in which he pledges, himself as a believer in Christianity. I think anyone who will candidly do as I have done, will come to the conclusion that he was a Deist and nothing more."-- The Reverend Bird Wilson, an Episcopal minister in Albany, New York

The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.-- Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781-82

The civil government ... functions with complete success ... by the total separation of the Church from the State.-- James Madison, 1819

Congress should not establish a religion, and enforce the legal observation of it by law, nor compel men to worship God in any Manner contrary to their conscience.-- James Madison, explaining to Congress during the House Debate what the First Amendment means to him

Indeed, Mr. Jefferson, what could be invented to debase the ancient Christianism which Greeks, Romans, Hebrews and Christian factions, above all the Catholics, have not fraudulently imposed upon the public? Miracles after miracles have rolled down in torrents.-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, December 3, 1813

bobleddy.blogspot.com

Posted by Bob Leddy at 8:12 AM

Reality Check

I have had enough. When will our elected officials stop pandering to the religious right and truly represent the constitution and the principels upon which we were founded. All of these politicians are more concerned with votes then standing up for the truth. I venture that most Americans are of the belief that we were founded as a Christian nation, what else could you think. Schools imply it, if not teach it, some Priests and Preachers would have you believe that Jesus called the roll at the Constitutional Convention. Politicians like the President and members of the House and Senate knowingly at the expense of reality invoke these untruths to get votes. Conservative talking heads like Bill O'Reilly and Sean Hannity flat out say we were formed as a christian nation and wave it to stoke the flames of ignorance, all the while claiming that they are patriots. The old adage definitely applies, that if you tell a lie long enough it becomes true.

The Democrats and the "liberal media" are just as guilty, if not more so for not calling one another out on these issues. Why does the government keep trying to spread democracy around the world, when we can't even discuss it out loud and admit the true principles we were founded on. If we as Americans can not get together and nail down who we really are as a people and have our government state out loud it's fundamental principles because they fear a religious out cry, then we have grossly failed the test before us. I guarantee not one candidate would broach this subject out of fear of pissing off the zealots and not getting votes. One of the main things our enlightened Founding Fathers railed against was religion, this is a fact. Not the practice of religion, far from it, they would carefully protect every ones right to choose his or her religion what ever it might be. But of it's place in government, to them, it had none. Today we run rough shod over the CONSTITUTION and BILL OF RIGHTS like they were an advice column or list of helpful hints. How do we expect to help other countries with democracy when we are not honest enough to truly defend and represent our own as it was originally conceived. This is the true shame of our nation.

Time for a reality check, a large number of the most famous and involved members of the Founding Fathers were anything but Christian, frankly they had a great deal of disdain for it. I will reference some of the most relevant Founding Fathers, and ironically these are the ones religious groups frequently use to illustrate their point. (WASHINGTON, ADAMS, JEFFERSON, MADISON, FRANKLIN, THOMAS PAINE ETC) What's truly alarming is that only one of two things can be true in this case 1) that the standard bearers of the Constitution we elect and appoint to positions of authority today know the facts of history and still continue to pander to zealots and that's scary or 2) they truly don't know their history and actually believe we were formed as a Christian government. That is stunning.

How far we have fallen from the hopes of what the Founders created. The church and the involvement of religion in the government was exactly what they didn't want. Now religious leaders, conservatives and liberals alike have taken it and twisted to suit they're constituents beliefs and I wager not one of the candidates would have the integrity to discuss it publicly or defend the words of the Founding Fathers.

The bottom line is this. By ignoring and betraying the true nature and magnitude of what the Founders conceived and realized, we rob them of and hide from the world their true genius and vision and there just due. Even sadder we have robbed ourselves of the true democracy they envisioned. These great men studied the history of nations and the repression of the peoples of the world and realized the one common denominator was the involvement of the church and religion with government. It has been referenced in each of their writings on countless occasions, often with disgust.

The vision and insight possesed by these great free thinkers is as evident now as it ever was. Imagine if we had carried that enlightened standard of reason, intellect, cause and effect forward and truly nurtured it and carried to it's deserved place, there just might have been a lot less death and destruction in the world in the name of God. If we followed and respected that helpful hint list I mentioned earlier, things might be going a little smoother now. Had we actually let each other live and let live regardless of religious belief and stopped trying to convince each other that we each had the best invisible guy we would definitely be better off.

Before you react angrily and lash out with some inane emotional argument, count to ten and read a history book. Then find some documented facts and present a cogent and factual argument. If the gist of your argument is that I'm going to burn in hell or something along those lines, save it. I said fact based and cogent.

Let me stress that I am not anti-religion because that is the first argument i will get. I am however anti-lie. America is my country and I truly love it. I am angry because we are not defending what it stands for, we are cowering from the very thing they despised and risked there lives to defeat, intolerance, ignorance and repression. Here are some quotes to illustrate my point, say Amen, when somebody sounds like a christian .

God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there never will be any liberal science in the world.-- John Adams, "this awful blashpemy" that he refers to is the myth of the Incarnation of Christ

The Treaty of TripoliSigned by John Adams
"As the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen [Muslims] ... it is declared ... that no pretext arising from religious opinion shall ever product an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.... "The United States is not a Christian nation any more than it is a Jewish or a Mohammedan nation." -- Treaty of Tripoli (1797), carried unanimously by the Senate and signed into law by John Adams

The Church of Rome has made it an article of faith that no man can be saved out of their church, and all other religious sects approach this dreadful opinion in proportion to their ignorance, and the influence of ignorant or wicked priests.-- John Adams, Diary and Autobiography

The priesthood have, in all ancient nations, nearly monopolized learning.... And, even since the Reformation, when or where has existed a Protestant or dissenting sect who would tolerate A FREE INQUIRY? The blackest billingsgate, the most ungentlemanly insolence, the most yahooish brutality is patiently endured, countenanced, propagated, and applauded. But touch a solemn truth in collision with a dogma of a sect, though capable of the clearest proof, and you will soon find you have disturbed a nest, and the hornets will swarm about your legs and hands, and fly into your face and eyes.-- John Adams, letter to John Taylor

The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles?-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, June 20, 1815

I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson

Government being, among other purposes, instituted to protect the consciences of men from oppression, it certainly is the duty of Rulers, not only to abstain from it themselves, but according to their stations, to prevent it in others.-- George Washington, letter to the Religious Society called the Quakers, September 28,1789

"I have diligently perused every line that Washington ever gave to the public, and I do not find one expression in which he pledges, himself as a believer in Christianity. I think anyone who will candidly do as I have done, will come to the conclusion that he was a Deist and nothing more."-- The Reverend Bird Wilson, an Episcopal minister in Albany, New York

The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.-- Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781-82

The civil government ... functions with complete success ... by the total separation of the Church from the State.-- James Madison, 1819

Congress should not establish a religion, and enforce the legal observation of it by law, nor compel men to worship God in any Manner contrary to their conscience.-- James Madison, explaining to Congress during the House Debate what the First Amendment means to him

Indeed, Mr. Jefferson, what could be invented to debase the ancient Christianism which Greeks, Romans, Hebrews and Christian factions, above all the Catholics, have not fraudulently imposed upon the public? Miracles after miracles have rolled down in torrents.-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, December 3, 1813

bobleddy.blogspot.com

Posted by Bob Leddy at 8:12 AM

Reality Check

I have had enough. When will our elected officials stop pandering to the religious right and truly represent the constitution and the principels upon which we were founded. All of these politicians are more concerned with votes then standing up for the truth. I venture that most Americans are of the belief that we were founded as a Christian nation, what else could you think. Schools imply it, if not teach it, some Priests and Preachers would have you believe that Jesus called the roll at the Constitutional Convention. Politicians like the President and members of the House and Senate knowingly at the expense of reality invoke these untruths to get votes. Conservative talking heads like Bill O'Reilly and Sean Hannity flat out say we were formed as a christian nation and wave it to stoke the flames of ignorance, all the while claiming that they are patriots. The old adage definitely applies, that if you tell a lie long enough it becomes true.

The Democrats and the "liberal media" are just as guilty, if not more so for not calling one another out on these issues. Why does the government keep trying to spread democracy around the world, when we can't even discuss it out loud and admit the true principles we were founded on. If we as Americans can not get together and nail down who we really are as a people and have our government state out loud it's fundamental principles because they fear a religious out cry, then we have grossly failed the test before us. I guarantee not one candidate would broach this subject out of fear of pissing off the zealots and not getting votes. One of the main things our enlightened Founding Fathers railed against was religion, this is a fact. Not the practice of religion, far from it, they would carefully protect every ones right to choose his or her religion what ever it might be. But of it's place in government, to them, it had none. Today we run rough shod over the CONSTITUTION and BILL OF RIGHTS like they were an advice column or list of helpful hints. How do we expect to help other countries with democracy when we are not honest enough to truly defend and represent our own as it was originally conceived. This is the true shame of our nation.

Time for a reality check, a large number of the most famous and involved members of the Founding Fathers were anything but Christian, frankly they had a great deal of disdain for it. I will reference some of the most relevant Founding Fathers, and ironically these are the ones religious groups frequently use to illustrate their point. (WASHINGTON, ADAMS, JEFFERSON, MADISON, FRANKLIN, THOMAS PAINE ETC) What's truly alarming is that only one of two things can be true in this case 1) that the standard bearers of the Constitution we elect and appoint to positions of authority today know the facts of history and still continue to pander to zealots and that's scary or 2) they truly don't know their history and actually believe we were formed as a Christian government. That is stunning.

How far we have fallen from the hopes of what the Founders created. The church and the involvement of religion in the government was exactly what they didn't want. Now religious leaders, conservatives and liberals alike have taken it and twisted to suit they're constituents beliefs and I wager not one of the candidates would have the integrity to discuss it publicly or defend the words of the Founding Fathers.

The bottom line is this. By ignoring and betraying the true nature and magnitude of what the Founders conceived and realized, we rob them of and hide from the world their true genius and vision and there just due. Even sadder we have robbed ourselves of the true democracy they envisioned. These great men studied the history of nations and the repression of the peoples of the world and realized the one common denominator was the involvement of the church and religion with government. It has been referenced in each of their writings on countless occasions, often with disgust.

The vision and insight possesed by these great free thinkers is as evident now as it ever was. Imagine if we had carried that enlightened standard of reason, intellect, cause and effect forward and truly nurtured it and carried to it's deserved place, there just might have been a lot less death and destruction in the world in the name of God. If we followed and respected that helpful hint list I mentioned earlier, things might be going a little smoother now. Had we actually let each other live and let live regardless of religious belief and stopped trying to convince each other that we each had the best invisible guy we would definitely be better off.

Before you react angrily and lash out with some inane emotional argument, count to ten and read a history book. Then find some documented facts and present a cogent and factual argument. If the gist of your argument is that I'm going to burn in hell or something along those lines, save it. I said fact based and cogent.

Let me stress that I am not anti-religion because that is the first argument i will get. I am however anti-lie. America is my country and I truly love it. I am angry because we are not defending what it stands for, we are cowering from the very thing they despised and risked there lives to defeat, intolerance, ignorance and repression. Here are some quotes to illustrate my point, say Amen, when somebody sounds like a christian .

God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there never will be any liberal science in the world.-- John Adams, "this awful blashpemy" that he refers to is the myth of the Incarnation of Christ

The Treaty of TripoliSigned by John Adams
"As the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen [Muslims] ... it is declared ... that no pretext arising from religious opinion shall ever product an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.... "The United States is not a Christian nation any more than it is a Jewish or a Mohammedan nation." -- Treaty of Tripoli (1797), carried unanimously by the Senate and signed into law by John Adams

The Church of Rome has made it an article of faith that no man can be saved out of their church, and all other religious sects approach this dreadful opinion in proportion to their ignorance, and the influence of ignorant or wicked priests.-- John Adams, Diary and Autobiography

The priesthood have, in all ancient nations, nearly monopolized learning.... And, even since the Reformation, when or where has existed a Protestant or dissenting sect who would tolerate A FREE INQUIRY? The blackest billingsgate, the most ungentlemanly insolence, the most yahooish brutality is patiently endured, countenanced, propagated, and applauded. But touch a solemn truth in collision with a dogma of a sect, though capable of the clearest proof, and you will soon find you have disturbed a nest, and the hornets will swarm about your legs and hands, and fly into your face and eyes.-- John Adams, letter to John Taylor

The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles?-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, June 20, 1815

I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson

Government being, among other purposes, instituted to protect the consciences of men from oppression, it certainly is the duty of Rulers, not only to abstain from it themselves, but according to their stations, to prevent it in others.-- George Washington, letter to the Religious Society called the Quakers, September 28,1789

"I have diligently perused every line that Washington ever gave to the public, and I do not find one expression in which he pledges, himself as a believer in Christianity. I think anyone who will candidly do as I have done, will come to the conclusion that he was a Deist and nothing more."-- The Reverend Bird Wilson, an Episcopal minister in Albany, New York

The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.-- Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781-82

The civil government ... functions with complete success ... by the total separation of the Church from the State.-- James Madison, 1819

Congress should not establish a religion, and enforce the legal observation of it by law, nor compel men to worship God in any Manner contrary to their conscience.-- James Madison, explaining to Congress during the House Debate what the First Amendment means to him

Indeed, Mr. Jefferson, what could be invented to debase the ancient Christianism which Greeks, Romans, Hebrews and Christian factions, above all the Catholics, have not fraudulently imposed upon the public? Miracles after miracles have rolled down in torrents.-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, December 3, 1813

bobleddy.blogspot.com

Posted by Bob Leddy at 8:12 AM

Victoria and Moody,

Your koranic, fiction thumping is not proving anything other than there is a continuing stream of flaws in your book of death. Apply the Five F rule and get back to us.