Life after Death

Some Common Myths About Death:
Myth #1: Death is the natural end of life.
What do the scriptures say? Genesis 1:28; 2:17; Romans 5:12
Myth #2: God takes people in death to be with him.
What do the scriptures say? Job 34:15; Psalm 37:11, 29; 115:16
Myth #3: God takes little children to become angels.
What do the scriptures say? Psalm 51:5; 104:1,4; Hebrews 1:7, 14
Myth #4: Some people are tormented after death.
What do the scriptures say? Psalm 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10; Romans 6:23
Myth #5: Death means the permanent end of our existence.
What do the scriptures say? Job 14:14, 15; John 3:16; 17:3; Acts 24:15

personally i don't really believe in afterlife. half of me believes but the other half is uncertain. I do believe that you can have some kind of an accountance with a spirit but not to the point where you see the person standing right in front of you. like Gallo said, an afterlife could be a place where your spirit goes to start over to live forever and when we die, our body may no longer be alive but our spirits will continue to do so. i don't know for sure if their is an afterlife,but we'll just have to wait and see when our time comes.

personally i don't really believe in afterlife. half of me believes but the other half is uncertain. I do believe that you can have some kind of an accountance with a spirit but not to the point where you see the person standing right in front of you. like Gallo said, an afterlife could be a place where your spirit goes to start over to live forever and when we die, our body may no longer be alive but our spirits will continue to do so. i don't know for sure if their is an afterlife,but we'll just have to wait and see when our time comes.

personally i don't really believe in afterlife. half of me believes but the other half is uncertain. I do believe that you can have some kind of an accountance with a spirit but not to the point where you see the person standing right in front of you. like Gallo said, an afterlife could be a place where your spirit goes to start over to live forever and when we die, our body may no longer be alive but our spirits will continue to do so. i don't know for sure if their is an afterlife,but we'll just have to wait and see when our time comes.

personally i don't really believe in afterlife. half of me believes but the other half is uncertain. I do believe that you can have some kind of an accountance with a spirit but not to the point where you see the person standing right in front of you. like Gallo said, an afterlife could be a place where your spirit goes to start over to live forever and when we die, our body may no longer be alive but our spirits will continue to do so. i don't know for sure if their is an afterlife,but we'll just have to wait and see when our time comes.

I personally don't believe that there is life after death, however depressing that seems. I think people want this life after death thing so that they can start over and live forever. When we die, I think we leave the physical world, so it is impossible to return. The only person that has passed away in my lifetime is my uncle, who died when I was only three years old. His spirit has never visited me, but he has appeared in a couple of my dreams. I can't be sure that there is an afterlife, but all I know for now is that when I die, I will then find out for sure.

"When people come to accept their story as the only ‘grown up and mature’ one, they tend almost reflexively to become intolerant and judgmental of others."

As one (indeed you) might purport that no one is without such superstitions, I would contend likewise that no one is without a threshold for intolerance.

Intolerance of gobbledygook is a virtue. We've been far too tolerant of the media promulgating out and out lies in the interest of feigning political balance. We've tolerated a small minority of way-kooked-out end timers who wield far too much influence on our foreign policy. It's time people of reason stand together and turn back this torrent of nonsense. If that be intolerance, I'll wear that badge with honor.

That said, if it takes belief in an invisible patriarch who created the entire universe, and further, belief that such an omnipotent being has nothing better to do than monitor each and every individual in this rather insignificant corner of a vast universe, just in order to determine whether to torture or reward said individuals after they're dead -- if it takes belief in all that in order for individuals to act with morality and compassion, then by all means, y'all have yourselves a heapin' helpin' of it.

Just keep it to yourselves is all I ask, because when your beliefs start impinging on my rights, you're in for some "intolerance" from me, and increasingly, a nation fed up.

Dear Lorenzo

I share your sense of joy. Thank you for sharing your wonderful insight. You did say about life after death as being;

"the hardest to attain".

I totally agree with you from the many posts I see here but truly it is also the easiest for it takes only a firm belief in the realm of the unknown. We live this life either as it being a mystical magical life or otherwise.

You are also right that God is Pure Unconditional Love available to LL of His Creation. His reach is limitless. It is us who either confine Him/Her?it to our own very limited understanding or even deny Him totally because we rely purely on our physical intellect, as you rightly noted. Our ego stands in the way, but His glory overcomes our illusion and this is defined by many as Hell. Yet in truth it is Heavenly. Then again to one who understands this unlimited Love, it is ALL Love. there is nothing else.

Peace be with you brother.

It's your perogative to believe what you want about death, and if it helps you get through the day, I don't think anyone will complain.

But to claim this belief as a great act of 'faith' and thus justified and a force for good in your life is an embarassment to your intellect.

Former Christian Youth Minister's Path to Islam
http://youtube.com/watch?v=oRMfnHZEGMg

Why must there be an afterlife? Is it so you can go through life feeling good about yourself and what comes after?

No, there isn't an afterlife. I know that will make a lot of people unhappy, and will generate plenty of posts about how unfortunate I am, but there it is.

Man has searched for an answer to this question since they became self aware. The question of an afterlife is one of the prime reasons for the development of religion in every single culture. The notion of what happens to us had changed over the eons, but the message has always been the same: You need not fear oblivion because there just HAS to be something. Unfortunately, the only real afterlife is the lasting impression we leave with our children, and other loved ones. The ways in which we have influenced them will carry on in hundreds of small ways for generations to come. There won't however be a grand meeting in heaven, or some paradise to enjoy. And why must there be an afterlife? If there is nothingness beyond, then there is nothing to fear.

Please Dear God, Allah, Bubba, whatever-you're-called, please, please put me in a time machine and send me back to an age of disease, of no electricity, of wigs, poor food, of slavery, even.

Yes, send me back to The Age Of Reason.

I think the WaPo Faith columns are missing the important arguments of our post-modern times:

--How many angels can dance on the head of the pin?

--Why will the poor always be with us?

--Why is one God better than another? Examples please.

Look, everyone seems to have their "unique" stories about loved ones who passed on, stories about brushes with death. These are legitimate expressions of stuff we can't really explain right now.

I bristle when we start applying these deeply personal narratives about faith to public policy decisions.

We've had six years of an allegedly "religious" President who's done nothing but harm, serious harm to the United States of America, to New Orleans, to Iraq, to the world. And this bozo gets his "credibility" from how damn good a Christian he is?

A little more than nine years ago I suffered a brain aneurysm and stroke. The doctors said I was a vegetable. They proceeded with a nine hour craniotomy to stop the flow of blood from my brain, and said I would not make it, or would survive as a vegetable.(Which my family always said I was anyways)I survived the surgery, despite dying on the table, and was in a coma for three days. Sometime between going out and coming to three days later, I stood in Heaven, a a stone wall, with mist seeping out from under it, and I heard a voice tell me to look down at myself. I did, and I was empty, hollow. Suddenly, from all sides,I saw and felt the wonderful and magnificent love of the Holy Spirit, beautiful golden rays of love is the only way I could describe it, and it filled my empty spirit and gave me new life. It was a beautful and wonderful love, and love is too cheap a word for what I experienced, it was so magnificent, and I knew this love was from God for every person, not just me. I turned and saw Christ, who came to me, and I hugged him, and he said nothing to me, but turned me to see something he had blessed me with. It was my mother, whose name was Leah, who died at age 53 from a brain aneurysm, as did her mother and her grandmother, all on the Jewish side of the family. Next to my mother was my niece, also named Leah, the granddaughter of my mother, who had never met in life. Leah was killed in a Ford Explorer rollover while the family was on vacation, one year before my surgery. Grandmother and granddaughter looked at one another with a look that they knew something I didn't know, and it was good, as they smiled. I went to go over to them, but Christ put his arm on my shoulder and turned me to the right. I saw through whatever was between there and here, I saw my house, I saw the grains of sand on teh beach next to my house. Why did the Lord allow me to see such love, see his power to restore my life, and let me see my mother and daughter? Partially, I was going through a very traumatic life experience, with police and courts, and mostly because my sister and husband had grieved and prayed over the sudden loss of their daughter. And because I was single I was available, and would be one answer to the prayers of my family for Leah. I awoke on that third day, which I realize the similarity to the story of Christ's resurrection, and no one believed I could awake. I could move and was no vegetable. But I cried. For several days, until my father arrived, and I shared with him what happened, and we cried. We told one friend who had been at the hospital the whole three days praying for me, as family was across country. We told no one else. Three months later, at Christmas, the doctors allowed me to travel on a plane, and I flew to NY and went up to Ct to my sister's home. I found my brother-in-law outside, making sure the pool was covered, and I shared with him what happened, and how I sw his daughter, Leah. We cried, and we went and shared with my sister. The Lord allowed me to die, allowed me to live, allowed me to return normal, and allowed the grief of my sister to be tempered by the knowledge that her daughter was in the best of places. No dream is so long lasting, no dream is so touching, and no dream has the result of three days of tears because I stood in the presence of the Lord. The scripture says "the natural man doesn't understand the things of the spirit," and as an example, here on the Washington Post blog, is this discourse. Chose the spiritual and you will understand all, otherwise you sit only in the world of knowledge of the world that is visible, and so questions always come to mind about lie and death. You may be as smart as Einstein, but there is a far greater wealth of knowledge right before us, it is free. But it is the hardest to attain because we, as intelligent men and women, must lay down our pride in self, in intellect, and yield to the Lord. When that is laid down, the Lord will show so much. If I offered a free ticket to Hawaii, anyone would take it, here I share a free ticket to knowledge you never knew existed. I didn't, but the Lord showed me, through the prayers of others, what life is, and what death is. I didn't see gold roads and mansions, as tv preachers tell us, and the Lord asked for no money, in fact asked for nothing. But what I saw is there for you, ask and you will receive, seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened. Those are scriptures, but they are real, and so powerful , and so loving, and so beautiful. There is an old Jewish expression my grandmother used to say, "It couldn't hoit." THis writing was not an attempt to convert anyone, but to share something I found out, after being a thick-headed, proud man, who found the world I had built was definitely only temporary, and when we put our faith in the things of this world, it is temporary solution. Someone wrote to enjoy the now - and the Lord would of course have us enjoy the now. He created the world for us to enjoy. The tv preachers and right-wing evangelists are so wrong, and do not represent Him, only themselves and selfish interests, and of course, they seek to keep you locked into misery so you choose to follow them. But choose the Lord and see great things for yourself, you don't need a preacher or an evangelist, the LOrd is capable of doing it himself. If we ask. I apologize if anyoone is offended, I share only that others share my joy, and that they are spared the misery I lived through. We live. We die. But our livess are extended forever. Thanks.

A little more than nine years ago I suffered a brain aneurysm and stroke. The doctors said I was a vegetable. They proceeded with a nine hour craniotomy to stop the flow of blood from my brain, and said I would not make it, or would survive as a vegetable.(Which my family always said I was anyways)I survived the surgery, despite dying on the table, and was in a coma for three days. Sometime between going out and coming to three days later, I stood in Heaven, a a stone wall, with mist seeping out from under it, and I heard a voice tell me to look down at myself. I did, and I was empty, hollow. Suddenly, from all sides,I saw and felt the wonderful and magnificent love of the Holy Spirit, beautiful golden rays of love is the only way I could describe it, and it filled my empty spirit and gave me new life. It was a beautful and wonderful love, and love is too cheap a word for what I experienced, it was so magnificent, and I knew this love was from God for every person, not just me. I turned and saw Christ, who came to me, and I hugged him, and he said nothing to me, but turned me to see something he had blessed me with. It was my mother, whose name was Leah, who died at age 53 from a brain aneurysm, as did her mother and her grandmother, all on the Jewish side of the family. Next to my mother was my niece, also named Leah, the granddaughter of my mother, who had never met in life. Leah was killed in a Ford Explorer rollover while the family was on vacation, one year before my surgery. Grandmother and granddaughter looked at one another with a look that they knew something I didn't know, and it was good, as they smiled. I went to go over to them, but Christ put his arm on my shoulder and turned me to the right. I saw through whatever was between there and here, I saw my house, I saw the grains of sand on teh beach next to my house. Why did the Lord allow me to see such love, see his power to restore my life, and let me see my mother and daughter? Partially, I was going through a very traumatic life experience, with police and courts, and mostly because my sister and husband had grieved and prayed over the sudden loss of their daughter. And because I was single I was available, and would be one answer to the prayers of my family for Leah. I awoke on that third day, which I realize the similarity to the story of Christ's resurrection, and no one believed I could awake. I could move and was no vegetable. But I cried. For several days, until my father arrived, and I shared with him what happened, and we cried. We told one friend who had been at the hospital the whole three days praying for me, as family was across country. We told no one else. Three months later, at Christmas, the doctors allowed me to travel on a plane, and I flew to NY and went up to Ct to my sister's home. I found my brother-in-law outside, making sure the pool was covered, and I shared with him what happened, and how I sw his daughter, Leah. We cried, and we went and shared with my sister. The Lord allowed me to die, allowed me to live, allowed me to return normal, and allowed the grief of my sister to be tempered by the knowledge that her daughter was in the best of places. No dream is so long lasting, no dream is so touching, and no dream has the result of three days of tears because I stood in the presence of the Lord. The scripture says "the natural man doesn't understand the things of the spirit," and as an example, here on the Washington Post blog, is this discourse. Chose the spiritual and you will understand all, otherwise you sit only in the world of knowledge of the world that is visible, and so questions always come to mind about lie and death. You may be as smart as Einstein, but there is a far greater wealth of knowledge right before us, it is free. But it is the hardest to attain because we, as intelligent men and women, must lay down our pride in self, in intellect, and yield to the Lord. When that is laid down, the Lord will show so much. If I offered a free ticket to Hawaii, anyone would take it, here I share a free ticket to knowledge you never knew existed. I didn't, but the Lord showed me, through the prayers of others, what life is, and what death is. I didn't see gold roads and mansions, as tv preachers tell us, and the Lord asked for no money, in fact asked for nothing. But what I saw is there for you, ask and you will receive, seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened. Those are scriptures, but they are real, and so powerful , and so loving, and so beautiful. There is an old Jewish expression my grandmother used to say, "It couldn't hoit." THis writing was not an attempt to convert anyone, but to share something I found out, after being a thick-headed, proud man, who found the world I had built was definitely only temporary, and when we put our faith in the things of this world, it is temporary solution. Someone wrote to enjoy the now - and the Lord would of course have us enjoy the now. He created the world for us to enjoy. The tv preachers and right-wing evangelists are so wrong, and do not represent Him, only themselves and selfish interests, and of course, they seek to keep you locked into misery so you choose to follow them. But choose the Lord and see great things for yourself, you don't need a preacher or an evangelist, the LOrd is capable of doing it himself. If we ask. I apologize if anyoone is offended, I share only that others share my joy, and that they are spared the misery I lived through. We live. We die. But our livess are extended forever. Thanks.

If hunger, thirst, illness, and brain damage make us less conscious, why wouldn't our consciousness be destroyed utterly by death?

To be alive is to be a collection of cells, an arrangement determined by evolution. For example, our vision is binocular because we have the close-set eyes of predators. Will our vision be thus after our bodies have rotted away? Do those of you who believe that there is "life" after death imagine yourselves to be like you are now, not seeing what is behind you or on the other side of the planet, or do you imagine yourselves to be conscious of things in ways not related to physical perceptual systems? Are you a gaseous cloud? Whatever you imagine exists in your imagination. There is no evidence to support this most wishful thinking. Live your short lives as best you can.

Yes I do believe in an afterlife. What it will be like?, how will I experience it? I don't know. However I don't focus often on what is to come but I use my time and talents to address what is before me now. I live by a very simple maxim and that is to do the best I can for as many as I can as I live out my existence and I leave the judgement of my life's work and its meaning to my God. I profess a strong and vibrant faith in God, not in Christianity, not in Islam or Judaism, Buhdism or Deism,etc. I try to avoid the trap of dogma and canon law so that I might be able to experience the wonders of life unfiltered by the lenses of organized religion.

"He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also, he has put eternity into man's heart, yet so that he cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end" (Ecclesiastes 3:11).

"To / All Brothers & Sisters... Good people to knowing God one must be equal with God,not the grovling snivling fools that you having become. You but allow others to brainwash as abuse that you become as servants to man an prisoner unto their deceit cunning,God having no need or wish that you come a begging as a dog,unto its master to obey on call.Get of your knees,stand before God as your equal,thus winning your freedom. YOUR BROTHER in ARMS....LUCIFER xxx X"

Ah... I see that Dick Cheney has finally learned how to post.

Is there life after death? Because what we call the soul is a process, it ceases to be when life stops: it is not a thing that can be transported to heaven, hell, sheol, purgatory, or rowed across the River Styx. Therefore, there is no life after death.

Jeff:

The evidence doesn't come in until you die. To your way of thinking, the experiment is not over until you take your last breath. There will be evidence then, and there is evidence now. You've just decided not to consider any of it unlike the billions and billions who are staking their hopes on the one who has been resurrected and still lives.

The essence of most “religious” teachings is that consciousness is the ground of being instead of material. Of course, with the Popper-esque paradigm dominating most of the current scientific thought, materialistic science views consciousness as merely an epiphenomenon of the material brain and no more. Clearly, this perspective limits the interpretation of phenomena such as near death experiences, out of body experiences, telepathy, etc. With the recent findings in quantum mechanics, however, this purely material paradigm is becoming outdated and lacking in explanatory theories. Consciousness appears to be much more than merely the epiphenomena that materialist scientist claim. To determine if there is an afterlife one must extrapolate and theorise from different findings and theories not merely rely on one type of method of inquiry, I.e. material science.

I think that many enlightened mystics of human history have attempted to teach other people the methods necessary to be enlightened but their teachings have been co-opted by the “followers” who are self interested, egocentric and greedy people. The result of these organizers of religions is a “belief” system instead of a pure “practice” as you see in Zen. Simply “believe in this dogma and you will be rewarded” is the resulting misconception of many religion’s teachings. Jesus Christ seemed to be teaching his followers that they should be one with God and give up their entity of self in each moment. (See Matthew 6:28, Luke 17:21, John 15:13 and John17:21-23) This view seems to be similar to Buddhist thought (except the concept of God which could be interpreted as a personification of ultimate reality). Of course the followers of Christ misinterpreted his teachings in order to fulfill prophecy and to create a self-interested entity of “church”.

Can we integrate the modern theoretical physics and the essence of the teachings of Jesus Christ, the Great Buddha, etc.? If the recent interpretations of quantum mechanics are correct, then the integration has begun!

This is not a question to be answered intellectually, it is a question to be answered by Faith or lack thereof.

This is not a question to be answered intellectually, it is a question to be answered by Faith or lack thereof.

The Q about life after death has several As

1.If we define birth(begning)and death(end) as the boundaries between which life on earth as we know of exisists,then there is no life after death
2.If we let our imagination to go wild there are a host of As from various religions to suit your desres.If you do not like none of those As,there is no reasion I can think of that prohibits you to makeup one that calms down your anxiety on life after death.

The Q about life after death has several As

1.If we define birth(begning)and death(end) as the boundaries between which life on earth as we know of exisists,then there is no life after death
2.If we let our imagination to go wild there are a host of As from various religions to suit your desres.If you do not like none of those As,there is no reasion I can think of that prohibits you to makeup one that calms down your anxiety on life after death.

The Q about life after death has several As

1.If we define birth(begning)and death(end) as the boundaries between which life on earth as we know of exisists,then there is no life after death
2.If we let our imagination to go wild there are a host of As from various religions to suit your desres.If you do not like none of those As,there is no reasion I can think of that prohibits you to makeup one that calms down your anxiety on life after death.

mo

I'm really inspired by your CUCKOO'S poetry.

But who could dare to make the CUCKOO'S to understand, where they even don't want to look or listen, accept just what they think is the purpose of life and all they want to do :

just eat, drop, multiply and die just ,eat, drop, multiply and then die infinite.

To / All Brothers & Sisters... Good people to knowing God one must be equal with God,not the grovling snivling fools that you having become. You but allow others to brainwash as abuse that you become as servants to man an prisoner unto their deceit cunning,God having no need or wish that you come a begging as a dog,unto its master to obey on call.Get of your knees,stand before God as your equal,thus winning your freedom. YOUR BROTHER in ARMS....LUCIFER xxx X

Anonymous

The verse of Quran you refer (Qur'an 86:6-7)
"He is created from a drop emitted.Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs,"
is for both men and women for your information.It is refering towards the areas where it proceeds and not pointing out the organs in which it is made.
And the above chapter is not about this particular topic.

As you SAID:

"I could have sworn that sperm came from testicles."

I guess in your opinion women have testicles too.
You better keep your in pants if you have any??

I suggest you and couple of other like you, stop personal comments and try to argue with facts and figures and bring out the answeres of the asked questions or pointed out stated proofs in my posts, if you are capable of any knowledge!

Anonymous

The verse of Quran you refer (Qur'an 86:6-7)
"He is created from a drop emitted.Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs,"
is for both men and women for your information.It is refering towards the areas where it proceeds and not pointing out the organs in which it is made.
And the above chapter is not about this particular topic.

As you SAID:

"I could have sworn that sperm came from testicles."

I guess in your opinion women have testicles too.
You better keep your in pants if you have any??

I suggest you and couple of other like you, stop personal comments and try to argue with facts and figures and bring out the answeres of the asked questions or pointed out stated proofs, if you are capable of any knowledge!

Lucifer,

I obviously did not create you to be literate or a genius. Keep mocking me and I'll take away your internet privelages.

Back to hell where you belong dingleberry!

I dont think God as gives an hoot how hard it be for the human being,humanity ever having to get on knees as begging.Never given answers to their suffering,life an puzzle not of human making.Its time humanity got of its knees stop the bowing as the begging before God.Rather they start to demanding answers, not alike dogs beg for such. Humanity having been but trampled on by God for mere sport,it time God be on knees for a change bowing to humanity...LUCIFER

cuckoo,s nest.
deep down in the meadoland,a cuckoo established a huge world wide farm where is filled with cows and buffalos, cuckoo just let the animals eat drop and multiply and die,just eat, drop and multiply and then die none but eat,dung,multiply and then die,just eat, drop, multiply and die just ,eat, drop, multiply and then die infinite.

1-is cuckoo in his right mind?why?how come and since when and how is that?if every human being becam as the above cuckoo how this universe will be looking like????????????????????????????.
2-what kind of logic possessed cuckoo?is it the logic of the dream ?or the logic of the delusion?
3-where cuckoo recived his dullness from ?
4-what is the difference between cuckoo the bird and cuckoo the human who belive that this life is just a place where (human beings)work,eat,drop,multiply and then die infinite?
5-what is the significance of this life if there is no hearafter?
6-what is the big significance difference between animals who they work,eat,drop,multiply and then die and mankind who also work,eat,drop,multiply and then die?
7-cuckoo,s world is worth of intensive study!!!!!.

Let us go back to the question: have you been visited by a deceased relative, etc.? Many people I know have had this experience. It is usually positive. Usually, it is not of a religious nature; out of body experiences when someone is ill or dying and suddently the person is given life as an option, is another question altogether. We need to keep our god, g-d, allah, jesus, yeshua, etc. out of our thought processes when discussing the metaphysical realm. We simply need to think for ourselves. And since this subject is an enormous one to tackle (we being mere human be-comings), the subject should be left only to whatever, whoever, or IT that created us and our perfect world that has now become imperfect and corrupt. Consider all of us as the world's experiment to see if we are worthy of the gift of life. As the killing rages on in all facets of our daily lives: natural disasters, wars, illnesses, mass starvation, murder, genocide, etc., one would conclude that we are not worthy of continued existence on this planet. We don't own it, it owns us and we are abusive and unkind to our planet and our fellow man because of money, oil, or other kinds of wealth which we use to "control" the majority of this planet's poorer souls. We should be dishing out spiritual (not religious) feasts to all mankind in a universal manner, without pushing any one kind of creed down someone's throat. Religion preys on the poor and uninformed.
Therefore, we cannot answer such a question as to whether or not we believe in an afterlife. It is above our understanding and we can continue to hope and pray to our "heavenly father" that it is true, but we can never "know." Faith alone simply does not provide an answer.

Hi henry- as promised, i have a minute so ill tell my little story-

when my little brother was in the hospital dying i was visiting him and he was seated in his bed and got startled and asked me,"did you see that?"
i didnt know what he was talking about and said,"no honey, what do you mean?"

he said very clearly ,"there- behind me"
i looked and just saw a wall

he said,"there it is again", and was twisting around to look behind him on both sides, turning his head to look at each side"

"when i look at the side in my peripheral vision i see it"

"what honey?"

"that big black man standing behind me"
"there he is again! you can't see him??"

i didnt see anything.

the conversation went on- but for brevity ill end it there
i stayed as long as they would let me and left around 11-midnightish

i thought about it on the way home- he had been lucid and clear throughout his whole illness-
i thought maybe he was drugged up- but his precise pronunciation of the word peripheral belied that he was 'out of it'

i found out the next day that he had died about 2 hours later.

it wasnt until i related this last conversation we ever had, when asked (it being distinctive because it was our last) that i related it- and
someone remarked that it must have been the angel of death.

i dont think in those terms and it sent a vast chill through out me.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

my grandmother used to tell a stroy about my grandfather, after he died- she heard the grandfather clock in the foyer being set every night at the time my grandfather used to set it-
it kept running although she wouldnt touch it
she was spooked and never went to see- but after a while it stopped and she never reset it so it wound down eventually stopping forever
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

ive had alot of dreams about relatives-
many quite remarkable telling me things i couldnt possibly know- and many many so called supernatural expreiences-
but they are not related to death per se- so ill decline from elaborating.
peace

I wonder why we have to decide on this since it can't be proven. I see the threat of hell as an attempt by the institutional church to keep us in line. I prefer to believe that we were given a freedom to believe (or not) and to live the precepts of a spiritual life (or not) with the understanding that the consequences of our choices are more likely to be meted out in this life than in the hereafter. In other words, we are challenged to live the best life we can without the threat of hell or reward of heaven. This is a mature faith, not a dictate of religious authority.

“Eternity is a very long time – especially near the end.”

-- Woody Allen

“Eternity is a very long time – especially near the end.”

-- Woody Allen

JOHN DUDDLEY.....Your post having come to the attention of Allah as the Almighty,hence, the responce.To reach conclusion the world a lousy place,is to but proving the development of your brain,resulting in challange unto the Almighty. It may surprise you God in agreement,reminding. The creation of the universe be that it sustain the human form,in turn through heart as brain cometh understanding as experience of the very essence of creation,such the true purpose being in this lousy world.May YOU wish having STRONG experiences as understaning for the convincing. Be it understood that experiences understanding beyond capability of the brain can cause great great damage, hence be not recommened,rather a steady progress that comfortable for the brain. The essence of creation powerful, as a strong medicine best taken with caution,it by far best that Spiritual Development, understanding, as experience, BEING BALANCED... .. .

Reality Check

I have had enough. When will our elected officials stop pandering to the religious right and truly represent the constitution and the principels upon which we were founded. All of these politicians are more concerned with votes then standing up for the truth. I venture that most Americans are of the belief that we were founded as a Christian nation, what else could you think. Schools imply it, if not teach it, some Priests and Preachers would have you believe that Jesus called the roll at the Constitutional Convention. Politicians like the President and members of the House and Senate knowingly at the expense of reality invoke these untruths to get votes. Conservative talking heads like Bill O'Reilly and Sean Hannity flat out say we were formed as a christian nation and wave it to stoke the flames of ignorance, all the while claiming that they are patriots. The old adage definitely applies, that if you tell a lie long enough it becomes true.

The Democrats and the "liberal media" are just as guilty, if not more so for not calling one another out on these issues. Why does the government keep trying to spread democracy around the world, when we can't even discuss it out loud and admit the true principles we were founded on. If we as Americans can not get together and nail down who we really are as a people and have our government state out loud it's fundamental principles because they fear a religious out cry, then we have grossly failed the test before us. I guarantee not one candidate would broach this subject out of fear of pissing off the zealots and not getting votes. One of the main things our enlightened Founding Fathers railed against was religion, this is a fact. Not the practice of religion, far from it, they would carefully protect every ones right to choose his or her religion what ever it might be. But of it's place in government, to them, it had none. Today we run rough shod over the CONSTITUTION and BILL OF RIGHTS like they were an advice column or list of helpful hints. How do we expect to help other countries with democracy when we are not honest enough to truly defend and represent our own as it was originally conceived. This is the true shame of our nation.

Time for a reality check, a large number of the most famous and involved members of the Founding Fathers were anything but Christian, frankly they had a great deal of disdain for it. I will reference some of the most relevant Founding Fathers, and ironically these are the ones religious groups frequently use to illustrate their point. (WASHINGTON, ADAMS, JEFFERSON, MADISON, FRANKLIN, THOMAS PAINE ETC) What's truly alarming is that only one of two things can be true in this case 1) that the standard bearers of the Constitution we elect and appoint to positions of authority today know the facts of history and still continue to pander to zealots and that's scary or 2) they truly don't know their history and actually believe we were formed as a Christian government. That is stunning.

How far we have fallen from the hopes of what the Founders created. The church and the involvement of religion in the government was exactly what they didn't want. Now religious leaders, conservatives and liberals alike have taken it and twisted to suit they're constituents beliefs and I wager not one of the candidates would have the integrity to discuss it publicly or defend the words of the Founding Fathers.

The bottom line is this. By ignoring and betraying the true nature and magnitude of what the Founders conceived and realized, we rob them of and hide from the world their true genius and vision and there just due. Even sadder we have robbed ourselves of the true democracy they envisioned. These great men studied the history of nations and the repression of the peoples of the world and realized the one common denominator was the involvement of the church and religion with government. It has been referenced in each of their writings on countless occasions, often with disgust.

The vision and insight possesed by these great free thinkers is as evident now as it ever was. Imagine if we had carried that enlightened standard of reason, intellect, cause and effect forward and truly nurtured it and carried to it's deserved place, there just might have been a lot less death and destruction in the world in the name of God. If we followed and respected that helpful hint list I mentioned earlier, things might be going a little smoother now. Had we actually let each other live and let live regardless of religious belief and stopped trying to convince each other that we each had the best invisible guy we would definitely be better off.

Before you react angrily and lash out with some inane emotional argument, count to ten and read a history book. Then find some documented facts and present a cogent and factual argument. If the gist of your argument is that I'm going to burn in hell or something along those lines, save it. I said fact based and cogent.

Let me stress that I am not anti-religion because that is the first argument i will get. I am however anti-lie. America is my country and I truly love it. I am angry because we are not defending what it stands for, we are cowering from the very thing they despised and risked there lives to defeat, intolerance, ignorance and repression. Here are some quotes to illustrate my point, say Amen, when somebody sounds like a christian .

God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there never will be any liberal science in the world.-- John Adams, "this awful blashpemy" that he refers to is the myth of the Incarnation of Christ

The Treaty of TripoliSigned by John Adams
"As the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen [Muslims] ... it is declared ... that no pretext arising from religious opinion shall ever product an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.... "The United States is not a Christian nation any more than it is a Jewish or a Mohammedan nation." -- Treaty of Tripoli (1797), carried unanimously by the Senate and signed into law by John Adams

The Church of Rome has made it an article of faith that no man can be saved out of their church, and all other religious sects approach this dreadful opinion in proportion to their ignorance, and the influence of ignorant or wicked priests.-- John Adams, Diary and Autobiography

The priesthood have, in all ancient nations, nearly monopolized learning.... And, even since the Reformation, when or where has existed a Protestant or dissenting sect who would tolerate A FREE INQUIRY? The blackest billingsgate, the most ungentlemanly insolence, the most yahooish brutality is patiently endured, countenanced, propagated, and applauded. But touch a solemn truth in collision with a dogma of a sect, though capable of the clearest proof, and you will soon find you have disturbed a nest, and the hornets will swarm about your legs and hands, and fly into your face and eyes.-- John Adams, letter to John Taylor

The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles?-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, June 20, 1815

I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson

Government being, among other purposes, instituted to protect the consciences of men from oppression, it certainly is the duty of Rulers, not only to abstain from it themselves, but according to their stations, to prevent it in others.-- George Washington, letter to the Religious Society called the Quakers, September 28,1789

"I have diligently perused every line that Washington ever gave to the public, and I do not find one expression in which he pledges, himself as a believer in Christianity. I think anyone who will candidly do as I have done, will come to the conclusion that he was a Deist and nothing more."-- The Reverend Bird Wilson, an Episcopal minister in Albany, New York

The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.-- Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781-82

The civil government ... functions with complete success ... by the total separation of the Church from the State.-- James Madison, 1819

Congress should not establish a religion, and enforce the legal observation of it by law, nor compel men to worship God in any Manner contrary to their conscience.-- James Madison, explaining to Congress during the House Debate what the First Amendment means to him

Indeed, Mr. Jefferson, what could be invented to debase the ancient Christianism which Greeks, Romans, Hebrews and Christian factions, above all the Catholics, have not fraudulently imposed upon the public? Miracles after miracles have rolled down in torrents.-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, December 3, 1813

bobleddy.blogspot.com

Posted by Bob Leddy at 8:12 AM

Reality Check

I have had enough. When will our elected officials stop pandering to the religious right and truly represent the constitution and the principels upon which we were founded. All of these politicians are more concerned with votes then standing up for the truth. I venture that most Americans are of the belief that we were founded as a Christian nation, what else could you think. Schools imply it, if not teach it, some Priests and Preachers would have you believe that Jesus called the roll at the Constitutional Convention. Politicians like the President and members of the House and Senate knowingly at the expense of reality invoke these untruths to get votes. Conservative talking heads like Bill O'Reilly and Sean Hannity flat out say we were formed as a christian nation and wave it to stoke the flames of ignorance, all the while claiming that they are patriots. The old adage definitely applies, that if you tell a lie long enough it becomes true.

The Democrats and the "liberal media" are just as guilty, if not more so for not calling one another out on these issues. Why does the government keep trying to spread democracy around the world, when we can't even discuss it out loud and admit the true principles we were founded on. If we as Americans can not get together and nail down who we really are as a people and have our government state out loud it's fundamental principles because they fear a religious out cry, then we have grossly failed the test before us. I guarantee not one candidate would broach this subject out of fear of pissing off the zealots and not getting votes. One of the main things our enlightened Founding Fathers railed against was religion, this is a fact. Not the practice of religion, far from it, they would carefully protect every ones right to choose his or her religion what ever it might be. But of it's place in government, to them, it had none. Today we run rough shod over the CONSTITUTION and BILL OF RIGHTS like they were an advice column or list of helpful hints. How do we expect to help other countries with democracy when we are not honest enough to truly defend and represent our own as it was originally conceived. This is the true shame of our nation.

Time for a reality check, a large number of the most famous and involved members of the Founding Fathers were anything but Christian, frankly they had a great deal of disdain for it. I will reference some of the most relevant Founding Fathers, and ironically these are the ones religious groups frequently use to illustrate their point. (WASHINGTON, ADAMS, JEFFERSON, MADISON, FRANKLIN, THOMAS PAINE ETC) What's truly alarming is that only one of two things can be true in this case 1) that the standard bearers of the Constitution we elect and appoint to positions of authority today know the facts of history and still continue to pander to zealots and that's scary or 2) they truly don't know their history and actually believe we were formed as a Christian government. That is stunning.

How far we have fallen from the hopes of what the Founders created. The church and the involvement of religion in the government was exactly what they didn't want. Now religious leaders, conservatives and liberals alike have taken it and twisted to suit they're constituents beliefs and I wager not one of the candidates would have the integrity to discuss it publicly or defend the words of the Founding Fathers.

The bottom line is this. By ignoring and betraying the true nature and magnitude of what the Founders conceived and realized, we rob them of and hide from the world their true genius and vision and there just due. Even sadder we have robbed ourselves of the true democracy they envisioned. These great men studied the history of nations and the repression of the peoples of the world and realized the one common denominator was the involvement of the church and religion with government. It has been referenced in each of their writings on countless occasions, often with disgust.

The vision and insight possesed by these great free thinkers is as evident now as it ever was. Imagine if we had carried that enlightened standard of reason, intellect, cause and effect forward and truly nurtured it and carried to it's deserved place, there just might have been a lot less death and destruction in the world in the name of God. If we followed and respected that helpful hint list I mentioned earlier, things might be going a little smoother now. Had we actually let each other live and let live regardless of religious belief and stopped trying to convince each other that we each had the best invisible guy we would definitely be better off.

Before you react angrily and lash out with some inane emotional argument, count to ten and read a history book. Then find some documented facts and present a cogent and factual argument. If the gist of your argument is that I'm going to burn in hell or something along those lines, save it. I said fact based and cogent.

Let me stress that I am not anti-religion because that is the first argument i will get. I am however anti-lie. America is my country and I truly love it. I am angry because we are not defending what it stands for, we are cowering from the very thing they despised and risked there lives to defeat, intolerance, ignorance and repression. Here are some quotes to illustrate my point, say Amen, when somebody sounds like a christian .

God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there never will be any liberal science in the world.-- John Adams, "this awful blashpemy" that he refers to is the myth of the Incarnation of Christ

The Treaty of TripoliSigned by John Adams
"As the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen [Muslims] ... it is declared ... that no pretext arising from religious opinion shall ever product an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.... "The United States is not a Christian nation any more than it is a Jewish or a Mohammedan nation." -- Treaty of Tripoli (1797), carried unanimously by the Senate and signed into law by John Adams

The Church of Rome has made it an article of faith that no man can be saved out of their church, and all other religious sects approach this dreadful opinion in proportion to their ignorance, and the influence of ignorant or wicked priests.-- John Adams, Diary and Autobiography

The priesthood have, in all ancient nations, nearly monopolized learning.... And, even since the Reformation, when or where has existed a Protestant or dissenting sect who would tolerate A FREE INQUIRY? The blackest billingsgate, the most ungentlemanly insolence, the most yahooish brutality is patiently endured, countenanced, propagated, and applauded. But touch a solemn truth in collision with a dogma of a sect, though capable of the clearest proof, and you will soon find you have disturbed a nest, and the hornets will swarm about your legs and hands, and fly into your face and eyes.-- John Adams, letter to John Taylor

The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles?-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, June 20, 1815

I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson

Government being, among other purposes, instituted to protect the consciences of men from oppression, it certainly is the duty of Rulers, not only to abstain from it themselves, but according to their stations, to prevent it in others.-- George Washington, letter to the Religious Society called the Quakers, September 28,1789

"I have diligently perused every line that Washington ever gave to the public, and I do not find one expression in which he pledges, himself as a believer in Christianity. I think anyone who will candidly do as I have done, will come to the conclusion that he was a Deist and nothing more."-- The Reverend Bird Wilson, an Episcopal minister in Albany, New York

The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.-- Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781-82

The civil government ... functions with complete success ... by the total separation of the Church from the State.-- James Madison, 1819

Congress should not establish a religion, and enforce the legal observation of it by law, nor compel men to worship God in any Manner contrary to their conscience.-- James Madison, explaining to Congress during the House Debate what the First Amendment means to him

Indeed, Mr. Jefferson, what could be invented to debase the ancient Christianism which Greeks, Romans, Hebrews and Christian factions, above all the Catholics, have not fraudulently imposed upon the public? Miracles after miracles have rolled down in torrents.-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, December 3, 1813

bobleddy.blogspot.com

Posted by Bob Leddy at 8:12 AM

Reality Check

I have had enough. When will our elected officials stop pandering to the religious right and truly represent the constitution and the principels upon which we were founded. All of these politicians are more concerned with votes then standing up for the truth. I venture that most Americans are of the belief that we were founded as a Christian nation, what else could you think. Schools imply it, if not teach it, some Priests and Preachers would have you believe that Jesus called the roll at the Constitutional Convention. Politicians like the President and members of the House and Senate knowingly at the expense of reality invoke these untruths to get votes. Conservative talking heads like Bill O'Reilly and Sean Hannity flat out say we were formed as a christian nation and wave it to stoke the flames of ignorance, all the while claiming that they are patriots. The old adage definitely applies, that if you tell a lie long enough it becomes true.

The Democrats and the "liberal media" are just as guilty, if not more so for not calling one another out on these issues. Why does the government keep trying to spread democracy around the world, when we can't even discuss it out loud and admit the true principles we were founded on. If we as Americans can not get together and nail down who we really are as a people and have our government state out loud it's fundamental principles because they fear a religious out cry, then we have grossly failed the test before us. I guarantee not one candidate would broach this subject out of fear of pissing off the zealots and not getting votes. One of the main things our enlightened Founding Fathers railed against was religion, this is a fact. Not the practice of religion, far from it, they would carefully protect every ones right to choose his or her religion what ever it might be. But of it's place in government, to them, it had none. Today we run rough shod over the CONSTITUTION and BILL OF RIGHTS like they were an advice column or list of helpful hints. How do we expect to help other countries with democracy when we are not honest enough to truly defend and represent our own as it was originally conceived. This is the true shame of our nation.

Time for a reality check, a large number of the most famous and involved members of the Founding Fathers were anything but Christian, frankly they had a great deal of disdain for it. I will reference some of the most relevant Founding Fathers, and ironically these are the ones religious groups frequently use to illustrate their point. (WASHINGTON, ADAMS, JEFFERSON, MADISON, FRANKLIN, THOMAS PAINE ETC) What's truly alarming is that only one of two things can be true in this case 1) that the standard bearers of the Constitution we elect and appoint to positions of authority today know the facts of history and still continue to pander to zealots and that's scary or 2) they truly don't know their history and actually believe we were formed as a Christian government. That is stunning.

How far we have fallen from the hopes of what the Founders created. The church and the involvement of religion in the government was exactly what they didn't want. Now religious leaders, conservatives and liberals alike have taken it and twisted to suit they're constituents beliefs and I wager not one of the candidates would have the integrity to discuss it publicly or defend the words of the Founding Fathers.

The bottom line is this. By ignoring and betraying the true nature and magnitude of what the Founders conceived and realized, we rob them of and hide from the world their true genius and vision and there just due. Even sadder we have robbed ourselves of the true democracy they envisioned. These great men studied the history of nations and the repression of the peoples of the world and realized the one common denominator was the involvement of the church and religion with government. It has been referenced in each of their writings on countless occasions, often with disgust.

The vision and insight possesed by these great free thinkers is as evident now as it ever was. Imagine if we had carried that enlightened standard of reason, intellect, cause and effect forward and truly nurtured it and carried to it's deserved place, there just might have been a lot less death and destruction in the world in the name of God. If we followed and respected that helpful hint list I mentioned earlier, things might be going a little smoother now. Had we actually let each other live and let live regardless of religious belief and stopped trying to convince each other that we each had the best invisible guy we would definitely be better off.

Before you react angrily and lash out with some inane emotional argument, count to ten and read a history book. Then find some documented facts and present a cogent and factual argument. If the gist of your argument is that I'm going to burn in hell or something along those lines, save it. I said fact based and cogent.

Let me stress that I am not anti-religion because that is the first argument i will get. I am however anti-lie. America is my country and I truly love it. I am angry because we are not defending what it stands for, we are cowering from the very thing they despised and risked there lives to defeat, intolerance, ignorance and repression. Here are some quotes to illustrate my point, say Amen, when somebody sounds like a christian .

God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there never will be any liberal science in the world.-- John Adams, "this awful blashpemy" that he refers to is the myth of the Incarnation of Christ

The Treaty of TripoliSigned by John Adams
"As the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen [Muslims] ... it is declared ... that no pretext arising from religious opinion shall ever product an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.... "The United States is not a Christian nation any more than it is a Jewish or a Mohammedan nation." -- Treaty of Tripoli (1797), carried unanimously by the Senate and signed into law by John Adams

The Church of Rome has made it an article of faith that no man can be saved out of their church, and all other religious sects approach this dreadful opinion in proportion to their ignorance, and the influence of ignorant or wicked priests.-- John Adams, Diary and Autobiography

The priesthood have, in all ancient nations, nearly monopolized learning.... And, even since the Reformation, when or where has existed a Protestant or dissenting sect who would tolerate A FREE INQUIRY? The blackest billingsgate, the most ungentlemanly insolence, the most yahooish brutality is patiently endured, countenanced, propagated, and applauded. But touch a solemn truth in collision with a dogma of a sect, though capable of the clearest proof, and you will soon find you have disturbed a nest, and the hornets will swarm about your legs and hands, and fly into your face and eyes.-- John Adams, letter to John Taylor

The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles?-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, June 20, 1815

I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson

Government being, among other purposes, instituted to protect the consciences of men from oppression, it certainly is the duty of Rulers, not only to abstain from it themselves, but according to their stations, to prevent it in others.-- George Washington, letter to the Religious Society called the Quakers, September 28,1789

"I have diligently perused every line that Washington ever gave to the public, and I do not find one expression in which he pledges, himself as a believer in Christianity. I think anyone who will candidly do as I have done, will come to the conclusion that he was a Deist and nothing more."-- The Reverend Bird Wilson, an Episcopal minister in Albany, New York

The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.-- Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781-82

The civil government ... functions with complete success ... by the total separation of the Church from the State.-- James Madison, 1819

Congress should not establish a religion, and enforce the legal observation of it by law, nor compel men to worship God in any Manner contrary to their conscience.-- James Madison, explaining to Congress during the House Debate what the First Amendment means to him

Indeed, Mr. Jefferson, what could be invented to debase the ancient Christianism which Greeks, Romans, Hebrews and Christian factions, above all the Catholics, have not fraudulently imposed upon the public? Miracles after miracles have rolled down in torrents.-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, December 3, 1813

bobleddy.blogspot.com

Posted by Bob Leddy at 8:12 AM

Reality Check

I have had enough. When will our elected officials stop pandering to the religious right and truly represent the constitution and the principels upon which we were founded. All of these politicians are more concerned with votes then standing up for the truth. I venture that most Americans are of the belief that we were founded as a Christian nation, what else could you think. Schools imply it, if not teach it, some Priests and Preachers would have you believe that Jesus called the roll at the Constitutional Convention. Politicians like the President and members of the House and Senate knowingly at the expense of reality invoke these untruths to get votes. Conservative talking heads like Bill O'Reilly and Sean Hannity flat out say we were formed as a christian nation and wave it to stoke the flames of ignorance, all the while claiming that they are patriots. The old adage definitely applies, that if you tell a lie long enough it becomes true.

The Democrats and the "liberal media" are just as guilty, if not more so for not calling one another out on these issues. Why does the government keep trying to spread democracy around the world, when we can't even discuss it out loud and admit the true principles we were founded on. If we as Americans can not get together and nail down who we really are as a people and have our government state out loud it's fundamental principles because they fear a religious out cry, then we have grossly failed the test before us. I guarantee not one candidate would broach this subject out of fear of pissing off the zealots and not getting votes. One of the main things our enlightened Founding Fathers railed against was religion, this is a fact. Not the practice of religion, far from it, they would carefully protect every ones right to choose his or her religion what ever it might be. But of it's place in government, to them, it had none. Today we run rough shod over the CONSTITUTION and BILL OF RIGHTS like they were an advice column or list of helpful hints. How do we expect to help other countries with democracy when we are not honest enough to truly defend and represent our own as it was originally conceived. This is the true shame of our nation.

Time for a reality check, a large number of the most famous and involved members of the Founding Fathers were anything but Christian, frankly they had a great deal of disdain for it. I will reference some of the most relevant Founding Fathers, and ironically these are the ones religious groups frequently use to illustrate their point. (WASHINGTON, ADAMS, JEFFERSON, MADISON, FRANKLIN, THOMAS PAINE ETC) What's truly alarming is that only one of two things can be true in this case 1) that the standard bearers of the Constitution we elect and appoint to positions of authority today know the facts of history and still continue to pander to zealots and that's scary or 2) they truly don't know their history and actually believe we were formed as a Christian government. That is stunning.

How far we have fallen from the hopes of what the Founders created. The church and the involvement of religion in the government was exactly what they didn't want. Now religious leaders, conservatives and liberals alike have taken it and twisted to suit they're constituents beliefs and I wager not one of the candidates would have the integrity to discuss it publicly or defend the words of the Founding Fathers.

The bottom line is this. By ignoring and betraying the true nature and magnitude of what the Founders conceived and realized, we rob them of and hide from the world their true genius and vision and there just due. Even sadder we have robbed ourselves of the true democracy they envisioned. These great men studied the history of nations and the repression of the peoples of the world and realized the one common denominator was the involvement of the church and religion with government. It has been referenced in each of their writings on countless occasions, often with disgust.

The vision and insight possesed by these great free thinkers is as evident now as it ever was. Imagine if we had carried that enlightened standard of reason, intellect, cause and effect forward and truly nurtured it and carried to it's deserved place, there just might have been a lot less death and destruction in the world in the name of God. If we followed and respected that helpful hint list I mentioned earlier, things might be going a little smoother now. Had we actually let each other live and let live regardless of religious belief and stopped trying to convince each other that we each had the best invisible guy we would definitely be better off.

Before you react angrily and lash out with some inane emotional argument, count to ten and read a history book. Then find some documented facts and present a cogent and factual argument. If the gist of your argument is that I'm going to burn in hell or something along those lines, save it. I said fact based and cogent.

Let me stress that I am not anti-religion because that is the first argument i will get. I am however anti-lie. America is my country and I truly love it. I am angry because we are not defending what it stands for, we are cowering from the very thing they despised and risked there lives to defeat, intolerance, ignorance and repression. Here are some quotes to illustrate my point, say Amen, when somebody sounds like a christian .

God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there never will be any liberal science in the world.-- John Adams, "this awful blashpemy" that he refers to is the myth of the Incarnation of Christ

The Treaty of TripoliSigned by John Adams
"As the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen [Muslims] ... it is declared ... that no pretext arising from religious opinion shall ever product an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.... "The United States is not a Christian nation any more than it is a Jewish or a Mohammedan nation." -- Treaty of Tripoli (1797), carried unanimously by the Senate and signed into law by John Adams

The Church of Rome has made it an article of faith that no man can be saved out of their church, and all other religious sects approach this dreadful opinion in proportion to their ignorance, and the influence of ignorant or wicked priests.-- John Adams, Diary and Autobiography

The priesthood have, in all ancient nations, nearly monopolized learning.... And, even since the Reformation, when or where has existed a Protestant or dissenting sect who would tolerate A FREE INQUIRY? The blackest billingsgate, the most ungentlemanly insolence, the most yahooish brutality is patiently endured, countenanced, propagated, and applauded. But touch a solemn truth in collision with a dogma of a sect, though capable of the clearest proof, and you will soon find you have disturbed a nest, and the hornets will swarm about your legs and hands, and fly into your face and eyes.-- John Adams, letter to John Taylor

The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles?-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, June 20, 1815

I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson

Government being, among other purposes, instituted to protect the consciences of men from oppression, it certainly is the duty of Rulers, not only to abstain from it themselves, but according to their stations, to prevent it in others.-- George Washington, letter to the Religious Society called the Quakers, September 28,1789

"I have diligently perused every line that Washington ever gave to the public, and I do not find one expression in which he pledges, himself as a believer in Christianity. I think anyone who will candidly do as I have done, will come to the conclusion that he was a Deist and nothing more."-- The Reverend Bird Wilson, an Episcopal minister in Albany, New York

The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.-- Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781-82

The civil government ... functions with complete success ... by the total separation of the Church from the State.-- James Madison, 1819

Congress should not establish a religion, and enforce the legal observation of it by law, nor compel men to worship God in any Manner contrary to their conscience.-- James Madison, explaining to Congress during the House Debate what the First Amendment means to him

Indeed, Mr. Jefferson, what could be invented to debase the ancient Christianism which Greeks, Romans, Hebrews and Christian factions, above all the Catholics, have not fraudulently imposed upon the public? Miracles after miracles have rolled down in torrents.-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, December 3, 1813

bobleddy.blogspot.com

Posted by Bob Leddy at 8:12 AM

Victoria and Moody,

Your koranic, fiction thumping is not proving anything other than there is a continuing stream of flaws in your book of death. Apply the Five F rule and get back to us.

The experience of god as allah comes in beliefs as ideas faiths,then comes as having developed beyond,ideas beliefs, be god as allah comes in reality,giving one experience in the spiritual as such balanced in its depth of understanding. The light of god which not god will be reveiled one will drink from the holy grail,as be jesus referred to as the oasis within.Such experience one then becomes but servant to god as humanity. If one puts an ice cube in an drink it will as merge into the drink..such it be with the human spirit it be taken apart fom the whole put into an human body..as given through brain heart the ability to grow in understanding as experience, thus from finite knowing self the infinite, as thus merge in one,as added ice cube into drink.

Those who suppose *there is Science and Genetic(what is it) in islam*
Could you write any *world-wide famous University* in any islamic country ?
Could you show any *world-wide famous Hospital* in islamic states,although some of white long skirted bedouins have too much money.
Where is *islam Oxford* ?
Where is *islam Yale* ?

Victoria,

Asalam-u-alkum and EID MUBARIK to you and every body else.
I'm really glad to read your posts and few excellent scientific references out of countless numbers.

And to Anon and others:

I'm not claiming any thing, I'm just QUOTING references, if you know the difference between two?

About Bible / TRINITY you can see your self,
Is it a word of
Paul more than 50%
John
Mathew
Luke
OR JESUS (Alah-i-Aslam) ????
(for Detail ref. to my previous mail)

I don't know by the way which authentic volume 59 you are quoting from? It totally sounds fabricated. As there are countless FALSE Hadith also in circulation, AS PROPOGANDA ACTIVIITES against Islam. Present day Media and
::WHO CONTROLS :: (J C)::
AND PROVIDE COMMERCIALS/ FUNDS to it knows that very well. (AN OPEN SECRET)
Muslims knows which are the only authentic sources of Hadith and what is the procedure of avaluation.
Allah (God) in Quran Chapter 15 verse 9 Says, that He Himself will guard the Quran.
As previous messages given to humans were either munipulated or hided. As one is unable to separate right from wrong.
Allah didn't asure guarding Hadith.
1400 years is the PROOF of Allah's promise with all the SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE and OTHER ASPECTS of Human life.

hi henry- ill come back sometime soon (i hope) and share a story about my lil bro-

so check in once in a while if youve a mind
peace
(for a ghost- you certainly are substantial)

I TRIED TO FIND THE SIMPLEST AND SHORTEST EXPLANATION

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Quran on Human Embryology
“We created man from an extract of clay. Then We made him as a drop in a place of settlement, firmly fixed. Then We made the drop into an alaqah* (leech, suspended thing, blood clot), then We made the alaqah into a mudghah** (chewed, lump)” ( QURAN, 23:12-14)
In comparing a leech to the embryo at the transitory stage (alaqah) we find similarity between the two. (1)

Also, the embryo at this stage obtains nourishment from the blood of the mother, similar to the leech which feeds on the blood of others. (2)

The second meaning of the word alaqah is “suspended thing”... The suspension of the embryo, during the alaqah stage, in the womb of the mother. (3)

Suspension of an Embryo during the early stages in the womb of the mother. (About 15 days old) The actual size of the embryo is about 0.6mm.

When comparing the appearance of an embryo at the mugdah stage with a piece of gum that has been chewed, we find similarity between the two.

“We created man from an extract of clay. Then We made him as a drop in a place of settlement, firmly fixed. Then We made the drop into an alaqah (leech, suspended thing, blood clot), then We made the alaqah into a mudghah (chewed, lump)” (23:12-14)

We find that the external appearance of the embryo and its sacs during the transitory stage (alaqah) is similar to that of a blood clot. This is due to the presence of relatively large amounts of blood present in the embryo during this stage. (4)

The blood in the embryo does not circulate until the end of the third week. (5)

Thus the embryo is like a clot of blood at this stage!

The embryo at the mudghah stage acquires the appearance of a chewed-like substance because of the somites at the back of the embryo that “somewhat resemble teethmarks in a chewed substance.” (6)

hi henry!
i believe in paradise and the continuation of consciousness-

heres for that idiotic anon poser-

ive decided insulting anonymous posters is fair game since they are snaeaky cowardly posers-

o- ill also post the entire verses as anon sneakily posted only one of 3(although stupidly referenced 3 - 86:5-7- what a maroon)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
40 DAYS IN THE WOMB
Joe Leigh Simpson, Professor of Obstetrics and Gynecology at the North Western University in Chicago in the United States of America.

As we know, these chromosomes contain all the characteristics which the new human being will have such as the color of the eyes, skin, hair,etc. Hence, many of the details in the human being’s make-up are determined in his chromosomes. These chromosomes begin to form during the early nutfah stage of embryonic development. In other words, the distinguishing features of the new human being are determined from the very beginning at the nutfah stage. Allah, the Most Exalted, the Most Glorified, has stated this fact in the Qur’aan:

During the first 40 days of gestation, all the body parts and organs are completely, though consecutively formed. The Prophet Muhammad, (sallallahu ‘alaihi wa sallam), has informed us in a hadeeth that: In every one of you, all components of your creation are gathered together in your mothers’ womb by 40 days. (Narrated in Saheeh Muslim and Al-Bukhaari).
In another Hadeeth, Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu ‘alaihi wa sallam) said: When forty-two nights have passed over the drop (nutfah), Allah sends an angel to it, who shapes it and makes its ears, eyes, skin, flesh and bones. Then he says, "O Lord, is it male or female?" and your Lord decides what he wishes. (Narrated in Saheeh Muslim). Professor Simpson studied these two hadeeths extensively, noting that the first 40 days constitute a clearly distinguishable stage of embryogenesis. He was particularly impressed by the absolute PRECISION AND ACCURACY of those hadeeths. Then during one of the conferences which he attended he gave the following opinion: So that the two hadeeths that have been noted can provide us with a specific time table for the main embryological development before 40 days. Again, the point had been made repeatedly by other speakers this morning that these hadeeths could not have been obtained on the basis of the scientific knowledge that was available AT THE TIME of their recording. Professor Simpson says that religion can successfully guide the pursuit of knowledge. The West, as we said, has rejected this. But here is an American scientist who says that religion, namely Islam, can achieve this with success.
By analogy, if you go to a factory and have with you the operation manual of the factory, then you will be able to easily understand the kind of operation that goes on in that factory, thanks to that manual by the factory designer and builder. But if you do not have this manual with you, chances are much less that you will have good understanding of the various processes there.
Professor Simpson said: It follows, I think, that not only is there no conflict between genetics and religion, but in fact religion can guide science by adding revelation to some traditional scientific approaches. That there exists statements in the Qur’aan shown by science to be valid, which supports knowledge in the Qur’aan having been derived from Allah.
This is true. I also say that the Muslims can lead the way in the pursuit of knowledge and that they can accord knowledge its proper status. Moreover, Muslims know how to use knowledge as proof of the existence of Allah, May Allah be Exalted and Glorified, and to affirm the Messengership of Muhammad (sallallahu ‘alaihi wa sallam).

This Question is Dead

Not much response to this baby, is there?

Believers may be too embarrassed to come out and admit that they believe in the Myth of Life After Death.

And Skeptics may consider that those who believe in life after death are too deluded to attempt a rational conversation with.

I have never been visited by a dead person (and I'm dead)

but I have been visited by Aliens in a Shiny Green Spaceship.

OH by the way Moody,

Why should I believe a word you say. Your own false religion teaches you it's ok to lie.

""Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, 'O Allah's Apostle! Would you like that I kill him [Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf]?' The Prophet said, 'Yes,' Muhammad bin Maslama said, 'Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab).' The Prophet said, 'You may say it' (Hadith Vol. 5, Book 59, #369)."

So if what your saying is the truth, how should we know this because your own prophet mohammed taught that it was ok to lie?

Furthermore, you claim the Bible is corrupt, but are you aware that the Quran says that it is not? Of course not! Because you are taught that it is by men! The Quran speaks of the Law of Moses, the Prophets, etc. as God's Word (Allah to you) and that God's Word cannot be corrupted. It also speaks of the gospel of Jesus as God's Word. But the Quran says that God's Word cannot be corrupted. So if the Bible is God's Word according to the Quran, then why is that contradicting what you say? Are you lying, like Mr. Mohammed taught you to do?

Moody and other Muslims,

Moody, you speak as if the Quran is 100% accurate in it's science.

""Now let man but think from what he is created! He is created from a drop emitted-Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs," (Qur'an 86:5-7)."

I could have sworn that sperm came from testicles.

EID MUBARAK MOODY AND OTHERS

since there is such an overwhelming silence in regards to ramadan-
it ended thursday night

following the 30 days of fasting and praying- we now embark on the 3 days of Eid-
these 3 days we CANNOT fast
its the only time we cannot fast

a salaamu alaikum wa rahamtulahi wa barakatu to the very few muslims out there who come to these boards

Moody,

As with most Muslims, you suffer from the three B's i.e. you were Bred, Born and Brainwashed in Islam and you deny the existence of the militaristic and anti-feminine passages in the koran. Please review them before anymore "koranic" thumping.

Moody
Cut it Out!!!!!!

you multiple extended posts are
extremely antisocial
bordering on
sociopathic

JESUS (A.S.) IN ISLAM:

Jesus (Isa) A.S. in Islam, and his Second Coming
by Mufti A.H. Elias
I. Jesus (A.S.) In Islam
Muslims do believe that Isa (A.S.) was sent down as a Prophet of Allah (God), but he (Jesus) is not God or Lord, nor the son of God. Muslims do not believe that Isa (A.S.), also known as Jesus by Christians and others, is dead or was ever crucified. We believe that he was raised to heaven and is there, and will descend at the appointed time, end all wars, and bring peace to the world. Like Jesus (A.S.), Muhammad (Peace be upon him) is also a Prophet and Messenger. Muhammed (P.B.U.H.) is the last Prophet, though, and there is none after him. Hence, Islam is the last religion, complete, with the Holy Qur'an as the unchanged and perfect word of God for over 1400 years, AS GOD PROMISED TO PRESERVE IT TILL THE LAST DAY FOR ALL OF HUMANKIND, UNLIKE SACRED TEXTS OF OTHER RELIGIONS WHICH HAVE MULITPLE VERSIONS AND ARE "REVISED" PERIODICALLY BY MAN. God, or Allah in Arabic, is Divine and Supreme Being and Creator.
What the Holy Qur'an says about Jesus:
They slew him not, nor did they crucify him but it was made dubious to them.
(Holy Qur'an, Surah Nisaa, Verse 157)
Hadhrat Isa (A.S.) himself told of the coming of Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him). In the Bible, Jesus (A.S.) says,
IF YOU LOVE ME, KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS. AND I WILL PRAY TO THE FATHER AND HE SHALL GIVE YOU ANOTHER COMFORTER THAT HE MAY ABIDE WITH YOU FOREVER.
(Bible, John 14-15/16)

BUT WHEN THE COMFORTER IS COME, WHOM I WILL SEND UNTO YOU FROM THE FATHER, EVEN THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH, WHICH PROCEEDETH FROM THE FATHER, HE SHALL TESTIFY OF ME, AND HE ALSO SHALL BEAR WITNESS, BECAUSE YE HAVE BEEN WITH ME FROM THE BEGINNING.
(Bible, John 15-26/27)

I have yet many things to say unto you, but you cannot bear them now. How be it when he, the spirit of Truth will come, he will guide you into all truth, FOR HE SHALL SPEAK NOT OF HIMSELF, BUT WHATSOEVER HE SHALL HEAR, that he shall speak, AND HE WILL SHOW YOU THINGS TO COME. He shall glorify me, for he shall receive of mine, and he shall show it unto you.
(Bible, John 16-12/14)
Ulema (learned scholars in Islam) have said that the person who is described by Hadhrat Isa (A.S.) to come after him - in the above verse - does not comply with any other person but Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him).
In this case, the "comforter" he mentions is none other than Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) and his laws and way of life (Shariah) and Book (Holy Qur'an) are those that Hadhrat Isa (A.S.) asks his followers to abide by.
THE "PERSON" WHOM JESUS (A.S.) PROPHECISED WILL COME AFTER HIM, IS CALLED PARGALEETA IN THE BIBLE . THIS WORD WAS DELETED BY INTERPRETERS AND TRANSLATORS AND CHANGED AT TIMES TO "SPIRIT OF TRUTH" AND AT OTHER TIMES, TO "COMFORTER" AND SOMETIMES "HOLY SPIRIT." THE ORIGINAL GREEK AND ITS MEANING IS "ONE WHOM PEOPLE PRAISE EXCEEDINGLY." THE SENSE OF THE WORD, THEN, IS APPLICABLE TO THE WORD MUHAMMAD IN ARABIC, SINCE MUHAMMAD MEANS "THE PRAISED ONE."
Jesus (A.S.) also says in the Bible,
... AND A LITTLE WHILE AND YOU SHALL NOT SEE ME; AND AGAIN A LITTLE WHILE, YOU SHALL SEE ME BECAUSE I GO TO THE FATHER.
(Bible, John 16:16)
... and the Holy Qur'an says,
And surely they slew him not. But Allah (God) raised him unto Himself.
(Holy Qur'an, Surah Nisaa, Verse 157-158)
As such, Muslims believe that Hadhrat Isa (A.S.) was raised to heaven. According to Hadith, he is on the second heaven. Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam=Peace be upon him) mentioned, "During the Meraj (Ascension), I met Hadhrat Isa (A.S.) on the second heaven. I found him of medium stature, reddish white. His body was so clean and clear, that it appeared as though he had just performed ghusal (ablution, cleansing of the entire body) and come." In another Hadith, Rasulullah (Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam) mentioned to the Jews that, " Hadhrat Isa (A.S.) is not dead, he will most surely return to you before Qiyamat (the Day of Judgement)."
May Allah Guide all people to the Truth. Aameen.

PROOF OF GOD!

I liked your note Gerry its reason vs superstition and not Islam Vs Christianity or others. For you i advise to see below comments of mine.
Rick, you asked about Hell and Havens and told about population comparison. For you my dear, we are only responsible for our own actions. At the end good deeds and bad deeds were never rewarded equally and never will be(though in appearance you find injustice), logic tells! My believe tells i have the responsibility to seek KNOWLEDGE of world as well to reach the truth, other wise i will left ingorant and end up in hell. (If you are sincere enough you will find the answer of ALL the questions that hinders you and create doubts- ANSWERS ARE ALL OUT THERE!!)
Steve Holgate, dear you talk about lack of scientific proof, I suggest you to also read below comments carefully!!!

Opinions are made upon understanding and certain knowledge, which differ from person to person. For some God is a myth, for some they believe or want to believe according to their religion and for some He is as real as His creation. Below are few examples in the favor of their belief:

For Muslims Big Bang Theory is not something new, it is more than 1400 years old, revealed in their Holy Book along with more than 1000 other scientific facts which are happened to be established recently in couple of centuries. And the answers of so many confusing questions which keep us going astray throughout our lives. AND AS A FACT MUSLIMS KNOW THEY WERE REVEALED BEFORE DISCOVERED AND FURTHER ON TOP OF IT THAT NOT A SINGLE VERSE OF THEIR HOLY BOOK IS IN CONFLICT WITH ANY LOGICAL/SCIENTIFIC APPROACH (INFECT EVERY TIME SCIENTIFIC DISCOVERIES PROVIDING PROOF IN FAVOR OF THE LAST REVELATIONS), MAKE THEM MORE FOCUSED / PRACTICING /FUNDAMENTALIST OR WHAT EVER OTHERS THINK ABOUT THEM and made it very easy for them to reach to the conclusion...SIMPLY APPLY THE SCIENTIFIC RULE OF PROBABILITY....What if 80% of Qur’an is in conformation with 100% of Science and 20% of it is beyond humans comprehension then logic says it would be also correct, if not now then in future...IF YOU UNDERSTAND PORBABILITY RULE THEN ITS NOT A JOKE !!), very few examples out of All from the Holy book as proof,

I have created all the creatures from earth and all the living beings are made out of water (Chapter 21) (living being which are meant to die/perish)
Don’t you see the earth and sky was together and I separated them, still you don’t believe
(Chapter 21)
I have created sky upon earth for your protection and there is sign for you
(Chapter 21)
All the stars, moon and sun are floating in their skies
(Chapter 21)
All the skies are holding with out pillars and there is sign for you
(Chapter 21)
And the world is expanding. (it is also said in Qur’an I guess in Sura Nisa)

For Muslims God means (The One, Ultimate Creator, Who is Uncreated and above time always present before and after time and beyond our limited level of comprehension)

Below is the TOUCH STONE of God that He revealed in Holy Book, when the question about God was raised:
1- He is One and Only
2-the Eternal, Absolute;
, the eternally Besought of all! on Whom all depend.
3-He begets not, nor is He begotten.
4-And there is none comparable unto Him.
And none is like Him.

PLEASE COMMENTS ARE NOT NECESSARY WITHOUT VARIFICATION / RESEARCH OF THE ORIGINAL TEXT AND AUTHENTIC TRANSLATIONS BY ONLY MUSLIM SCHOLARS TO AVOID ANY TWISTING AND DECEPTIVE TECHNIQUES IN GENERAL PRACTICE!!

David,
IN ANSWER TO PROOF OF GOD, muslims point of view!!
I haven’t read all the posts but David in reply of your post to me dated:10/02/07.
I understand your point of view David when you refer to spirit. I suggest you to further study the meaning and concept.
To all fella’s no offense and with all due respect, in Bible word trinity is not even mentioned. Even name BIBLE is not mentioned inside book. In Roman Latin language Bible means book. The closest explanation saying that Holly Ghost, Spirit and Father is one is taken out/removed from the Bible in its latest versions/new additions explained by more than 50 High Priests of Church that it was not mentioned in the most ancient scripts and was a concoction, addition, fabrication in the translations.
More than 50% of the Bible is written by Paul who hardly met once the to Jesus (A.S.) in his life time. Then written by Luke, Mathew and John. And very small part of it is said by Jesus (A.S.) him self. (You can refer to red Bible).
Where Qur’an is the word only that Mohammed (P.B.U.H.) heard and not every thing he said. (Refer to my previous mail Jesus in Islam)
-What Mohammed (PBUH) said other than what he HEARS is called HADITH and is not part of Quran (Muslim Bible). And we also found concoctions in hadith but thousands are preserved and original.
-And what disciples of Mohammad(PBUH) said is even not considered as religious scripture or part of it unlike Christian Bible. It is kept totally separate for other references. I’m not saying Muslims don’t believe in Juses(A.S), they do, and also believe in Original Bible, if there are any proofs of original scriptures of Bible which were in Nazarian language and not in Latin.
And to see the Proof of God, Please read my next post!

In Qur'an Sura Qayyamah(Chapter 75:Day of Judgement).

Allah Subhana Talah says:
075.004
YUSUFALI: Nay, We are able to put together in perfect order the very tips of his fingers.
PICKTHAL: Yea, verily. We are Able to restore his very fingers!
SHAKIR: Yea! We are able to make complete his very fingertips

Todays MODREN SCIENCE accepts that every human being on planet earth have diffent finger tips/prints from the first person on planet earth to the last that is born today.

In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful.

075.001
YUSUFALI: I do call to witness the Resurrection Day;
PICKTHAL: Nay, I swear by the Day of Resurrection;
SHAKIR: Nay! I swear by the day of resurrection.

075.002
YUSUFALI: And I do call to witness the self-reproaching spirit: (Eschew Evil).
PICKTHAL: Nay, I swear by the accusing soul (that this Scripture is true).
SHAKIR: Nay! I swear by the self-accusing soul.

075.003
YUSUFALI: Does man think that We cannot assemble his bones?
PICKTHAL: Thinketh man that We shall not assemble his bones?
SHAKIR: Does man think that We shall not gather his bones?

075.004
YUSUFALI: Nay, We are able to put together in perfect order the very tips of his fingers.
PICKTHAL: Yea, verily. We are Able to restore his very fingers!
SHAKIR: Yea! We are able to make complete his very fingertips

075.005
YUSUFALI: But man wishes to do wrong (even) in the time in front of him.
PICKTHAL: But man would fain deny what is before him.
SHAKIR: Nay! man desires to give the lie to what is before him.

075.006
YUSUFALI: He questions: "When is the Day of Resurrection?"
PICKTHAL: He asketh: When will be this Day of Resurrection?
SHAKIR: He asks: When is the day of resurrection?

075.007
YUSUFALI: At length, when the sight is dazed,
PICKTHAL: But when sight is confounded
SHAKIR: So when the sight becomes dazed,

075.008
YUSUFALI: And the moon is buried in darkness.
PICKTHAL: And the moon is eclipsed
SHAKIR: And the moon becomes dark,

075.009
YUSUFALI: And the sun and moon are joined together,-
PICKTHAL: And sun and moon are united,
SHAKIR: And the sun and the moon are brought together,

075.010
YUSUFALI: That Day will Man say: "Where is the refuge?"
PICKTHAL: On that day man will cry: Whither to flee!
SHAKIR: Man shall say on that day: Whither to fly to?

075.011
YUSUFALI: By no means! No place of safety!
PICKTHAL: Alas! No refuge!
SHAKIR: By no means! there shall be no place of refuge!

075.012
YUSUFALI: Before thy Lord (alone), that Day will be the place of rest.
PICKTHAL: Unto thy Lord is the recourse that day.
SHAKIR: With your Lord alone shall on that day be the place of rest.

075.013
YUSUFALI: That Day will Man be told (all) that he put forward, and all that he put back.
PICKTHAL: On that day man is told the tale of that which he hath sent before and left behind.
SHAKIR: Man shall on that day be informed of what he sent before and (what he) put off.

075.014
YUSUFALI: Nay, man will be evidence against himself,
PICKTHAL: Oh, but man is a telling witness against himself,
SHAKIR: Nay! man is evidence against himself,

075.015
YUSUFALI: Even though he were to put up his excuses.
PICKTHAL: Although he tender his excuses.
SHAKIR: Though he puts forth his excuses.

075.016
YUSUFALI: Move not thy tongue concerning the (Qur'an) to make haste therewith.
PICKTHAL: Stir not thy tongue herewith to hasten it.
SHAKIR: Do not move your tongue with it to make haste with it,

075.017
YUSUFALI: It is for Us to collect it and to promulgate it:
PICKTHAL: Lo! upon Us (resteth) the putting together thereof and the reading thereof.
SHAKIR: Surely on Us (devolves) the collecting of it and the reciting of it.

075.018
YUSUFALI: But when We have promulgated it, follow thou its recital (as promulgated):
PICKTHAL: And when We read it, follow thou the reading;
SHAKIR: Therefore when We have recited it, follow its recitation.

075.019
YUSUFALI: Nay more, it is for Us to explain it (and make it clear):
PICKTHAL: Then lo! upon Us (resteth) the explanation thereof.
SHAKIR: Again on Us (devolves) the explaining of it.

075.020
YUSUFALI: Nay, (ye men!) but ye love the fleeting life,
PICKTHAL: Nay, but ye do love the fleeting Now
SHAKIR: Nay! But you love the present life,

075.021
YUSUFALI: And leave alone the Hereafter.
PICKTHAL: And neglect the Hereafter.
SHAKIR: And neglect the hereafter.

075.022
YUSUFALI: Some faces, that Day, will beam (in brightness and beauty);-
PICKTHAL: That day will faces be resplendent,
SHAKIR: (Some) faces on that day shall be bright,

075.023
YUSUFALI: Looking towards their Lord;
PICKTHAL: Looking toward their Lord;
SHAKIR: Looking to their Lord.

075.024
YUSUFALI: And some faces, that Day, will be sad and dismal,
PICKTHAL: And that day will other faces be despondent,
SHAKIR: And (other) faces on that day shall be gloomy,

075.025
YUSUFALI: In the thought that some back-breaking calamity was about to be inflicted on them;
PICKTHAL: Thou wilt know that some great disaster is about to fall on them.
SHAKIR: Knowing that there will be made to befall them some great calamity.

075.026
YUSUFALI: Yea, when (the soul) reaches to the collar-bone (in its exit),
PICKTHAL: Nay, but when the life cometh up to the throat
SHAKIR: Nay! When it comes up to the throat,

075.027
YUSUFALI: And there will be a cry, "Who is a magician (to restore him)?"
PICKTHAL: And men say: Where is the wizard (who can save him now)?
SHAKIR: And it is said: Who will be a magician?

075.028
YUSUFALI: And he will conclude that it was (the Time) of Parting;
PICKTHAL: And he knoweth that it is the parting;
SHAKIR: And he is sure that it is the (hour of) parting

075.029
YUSUFALI: And one leg will be joined with another:
PICKTHAL: And agony is heaped on agony;
SHAKIR: And affliction is combined with affliction;

075.030
YUSUFALI: That Day the Drive will be (all) to thy Lord!
PICKTHAL: Unto thy Lord that day will be the driving.
SHAKIR: To your Lord on that day shall be the driving.

075.031
YUSUFALI: So he gave nothing in charity, nor did he pray!-
PICKTHAL: For he neither trusted, nor prayed.
SHAKIR: So he did not accept the truth, nor did he pray,

075.032
YUSUFALI: But on the contrary, he rejected Truth and turned away!
PICKTHAL: But he denied and flouted.
SHAKIR: But called the truth a lie and turned back,

075.033
YUSUFALI: Then did he stalk to his family in full conceit!
PICKTHAL: Then went he to his folk with glee.
SHAKIR: Then he went to his followers, walking away in haughtiness.

075.034
YUSUFALI: Woe to thee, (O men!), yea, woe!
PICKTHAL: Nearer unto thee and nearer,
SHAKIR: Nearer to you (is destruction) and nearer,

075.035
YUSUFALI: Again, Woe to thee, (O men!), yea, woe!
PICKTHAL: Again nearer unto thee and nearer (is the doom).
SHAKIR: Again (consider how) nearer to you and nearer.

075.036
YUSUFALI: Does man think that he will be left uncontrolled, (without purpose)?
PICKTHAL: Thinketh man that he is to be left aimless?
SHAKIR: Does man think that he is to be left to wander without an aim?

075.037
YUSUFALI: Was he not a drop of sperm emitted (in lowly form)?
PICKTHAL: Was he not a drop of fluid which gushed forth?
SHAKIR: Was he not a small seed in the seminal elements,

075.038
YUSUFALI: Then did he become a leech-like clot; then did (Allah) make and fashion (him) in due proportion.
PICKTHAL: Then he became a clot; then (Allah) shaped and fashioned
SHAKIR: Then he was a clot of blood, so He created (him) then made (him) perfect.

075.039
YUSUFALI: And of him He made two sexes, male and female.
PICKTHAL: And made of him a pair, the male and female.
SHAKIR: Then He made of him two kinds, the male and the female.

075.040
YUSUFALI: Has not He, (the same), the power to give life to the dead?
PICKTHAL: Is not He (Who doeth so) Able to bring the dead to life?
SHAKIR: Is not He able to give life to the dead?

Sponsored by the MSA.

In Qur'an Sura Qayyamah(Chapter 75:Day of Judgement).

Allah Subhana Talah says:
075.004
YUSUFALI: Nay, We are able to put together in perfect order the very tips of his fingers.
PICKTHAL: Yea, verily. We are Able to restore his very fingers!
SHAKIR: Yea! We are able to make complete his very fingertips

Todays MODREN SCIENCE accepts that every human being on planet earth have diffent finger tips/prints from the first person on planet earth to the last that is born today.

In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful.

075.001
YUSUFALI: I do call to witness the Resurrection Day;
PICKTHAL: Nay, I swear by the Day of Resurrection;
SHAKIR: Nay! I swear by the day of resurrection.

075.002
YUSUFALI: And I do call to witness the self-reproaching spirit: (Eschew Evil).
PICKTHAL: Nay, I swear by the accusing soul (that this Scripture is true).
SHAKIR: Nay! I swear by the self-accusing soul.

075.003
YUSUFALI: Does man think that We cannot assemble his bones?
PICKTHAL: Thinketh man that We shall not assemble his bones?
SHAKIR: Does man think that We shall not gather his bones?

075.004
YUSUFALI: Nay, We are able to put together in perfect order the very tips of his fingers.
PICKTHAL: Yea, verily. We are Able to restore his very fingers!
SHAKIR: Yea! We are able to make complete his very fingertips

075.005
YUSUFALI: But man wishes to do wrong (even) in the time in front of him.
PICKTHAL: But man would fain deny what is before him.
SHAKIR: Nay! man desires to give the lie to what is before him.

075.006
YUSUFALI: He questions: "When is the Day of Resurrection?"
PICKTHAL: He asketh: When will be this Day of Resurrection?
SHAKIR: He asks: When is the day of resurrection?

075.007
YUSUFALI: At length, when the sight is dazed,
PICKTHAL: But when sight is confounded
SHAKIR: So when the sight becomes dazed,

075.008
YUSUFALI: And the moon is buried in darkness.
PICKTHAL: And the moon is eclipsed
SHAKIR: And the moon becomes dark,

075.009
YUSUFALI: And the sun and moon are joined together,-
PICKTHAL: And sun and moon are united,
SHAKIR: And the sun and the moon are brought together,

075.010
YUSUFALI: That Day will Man say: "Where is the refuge?"
PICKTHAL: On that day man will cry: Whither to flee!
SHAKIR: Man shall say on that day: Whither to fly to?

075.011
YUSUFALI: By no means! No place of safety!
PICKTHAL: Alas! No refuge!
SHAKIR: By no means! there shall be no place of refuge!

075.012
YUSUFALI: Before thy Lord (alone), that Day will be the place of rest.
PICKTHAL: Unto thy Lord is the recourse that day.
SHAKIR: With your Lord alone shall on that day be the place of rest.

075.013
YUSUFALI: That Day will Man be told (all) that he put forward, and all that he put back.
PICKTHAL: On that day man is told the tale of that which he hath sent before and left behind.
SHAKIR: Man shall on that day be informed of what he sent before and (what he) put off.

075.014
YUSUFALI: Nay, man will be evidence against himself,
PICKTHAL: Oh, but man is a telling witness against himself,
SHAKIR: Nay! man is evidence against himself,

075.015
YUSUFALI: Even though he were to put up his excuses.
PICKTHAL: Although he tender his excuses.
SHAKIR: Though he puts forth his excuses.

075.016
YUSUFALI: Move not thy tongue concerning the (Qur'an) to make haste therewith.
PICKTHAL: Stir not thy tongue herewith to hasten it.
SHAKIR: Do not move your tongue with it to make haste with it,

075.017
YUSUFALI: It is for Us to collect it and to promulgate it:
PICKTHAL: Lo! upon Us (resteth) the putting together thereof and the reading thereof.
SHAKIR: Surely on Us (devolves) the collecting of it and the reciting of it.

075.018
YUSUFALI: But when We have promulgated it, follow thou its recital (as promulgated):
PICKTHAL: And when We read it, follow thou the reading;
SHAKIR: Therefore when We have recited it, follow its recitation.

075.019
YUSUFALI: Nay more, it is for Us to explain it (and make it clear):
PICKTHAL: Then lo! upon Us (resteth) the explanation thereof.
SHAKIR: Again on Us (devolves) the explaining of it.

075.020
YUSUFALI: Nay, (ye men!) but ye love the fleeting life,
PICKTHAL: Nay, but ye do love the fleeting Now
SHAKIR: Nay! But you love the present life,

075.021
YUSUFALI: And leave alone the Hereafter.
PICKTHAL: And neglect the Hereafter.
SHAKIR: And neglect the hereafter.

075.022
YUSUFALI: Some faces, that Day, will beam (in brightness and beauty);-
PICKTHAL: That day will faces be resplendent,
SHAKIR: (Some) faces on that day shall be bright,

075.023
YUSUFALI: Looking towards their Lord;
PICKTHAL: Looking toward their Lord;
SHAKIR: Looking to their Lord.

075.024
YUSUFALI: And some faces, that Day, will be sad and dismal,
PICKTHAL: And that day will other faces be despondent,
SHAKIR: And (other) faces on that day shall be gloomy,

075.025
YUSUFALI: In the thought that some back-breaking calamity was about to be inflicted on them;
PICKTHAL: Thou wilt know that some great disaster is about to fall on them.
SHAKIR: Knowing that there will be made to befall them some great calamity.

075.026
YUSUFALI: Yea, when (the soul) reaches to the collar-bone (in its exit),
PICKTHAL: Nay, but when the life cometh up to the throat
SHAKIR: Nay! When it comes up to the throat,

075.027
YUSUFALI: And there will be a cry, "Who is a magician (to restore him)?"
PICKTHAL: And men say: Where is the wizard (who can save him now)?
SHAKIR: And it is said: Who will be a magician?

075.028
YUSUFALI: And he will conclude that it was (the Time) of Parting;
PICKTHAL: And he knoweth that it is the parting;
SHAKIR: And he is sure that it is the (hour of) parting

075.029
YUSUFALI: And one leg will be joined with another:
PICKTHAL: And agony is heaped on agony;
SHAKIR: And affliction is combined with affliction;

075.030
YUSUFALI: That Day the Drive will be (all) to thy Lord!
PICKTHAL: Unto thy Lord that day will be the driving.
SHAKIR: To your Lord on that day shall be the driving.

075.031
YUSUFALI: So he gave nothing in charity, nor did he pray!-
PICKTHAL: For he neither trusted, nor prayed.
SHAKIR: So he did not accept the truth, nor did he pray,

075.032
YUSUFALI: But on the contrary, he rejected Truth and turned away!
PICKTHAL: But he denied and flouted.
SHAKIR: But called the truth a lie and turned back,

075.033
YUSUFALI: Then did he stalk to his family in full conceit!
PICKTHAL: Then went he to his folk with glee.
SHAKIR: Then he went to his followers, walking away in haughtiness.

075.034
YUSUFALI: Woe to thee, (O men!), yea, woe!
PICKTHAL: Nearer unto thee and nearer,
SHAKIR: Nearer to you (is destruction) and nearer,

075.035
YUSUFALI: Again, Woe to thee, (O men!), yea, woe!
PICKTHAL: Again nearer unto thee and nearer (is the doom).
SHAKIR: Again (consider how) nearer to you and nearer.

075.036
YUSUFALI: Does man think that he will be left uncontrolled, (without purpose)?
PICKTHAL: Thinketh man that he is to be left aimless?
SHAKIR: Does man think that he is to be left to wander without an aim?

075.037
YUSUFALI: Was he not a drop of sperm emitted (in lowly form)?
PICKTHAL: Was he not a drop of fluid which gushed forth?
SHAKIR: Was he not a small seed in the seminal elements,

075.038
YUSUFALI: Then did he become a leech-like clot; then did (Allah) make and fashion (him) in due proportion.
PICKTHAL: Then he became a clot; then (Allah) shaped and fashioned
SHAKIR: Then he was a clot of blood, so He created (him) then made (him) perfect.

075.039
YUSUFALI: And of him He made two sexes, male and female.
PICKTHAL: And made of him a pair, the male and female.
SHAKIR: Then He made of him two kinds, the male and the female.

075.040
YUSUFALI: Has not He, (the same), the power to give life to the dead?
PICKTHAL: Is not He (Who doeth so) Able to bring the dead to life?
SHAKIR: Is not He able to give life to the dead?

Sponsored by the MSA.

I do not believe that man has a soul that outlives his body. There is a life. There is an identity. But both expire once one is dead. There is no after life which depends on what kind of life one led when he was alive. There will be no judgment. I believe no one is guilty of any thing except being born into this lousy world.

John

I do not believe that man has a soul that outlives his body. There is a life. There is an identity. But both expire once one is dead. There is no after life which depends on what kind of life one led when he was alive. There will be no judgment. I believe no one is guilty of any thing except being born into this lousy world.

John

Anonymous,

I love you too, you knucklehead.

HJ

I love you too Henry James. Even if you are a dead S.O.B.

that last Anonymous
responding to the previous knucklehead Anonymous
was me
Mr Henry James
the Author WITH a name.

Anonymous writes
"

Henry James??

Author of "Daisy Miller"? I thought you died in 1916? I guess resurrection is true, huh?"

there you go again Anonymous.
showing yourself to be the master of the
Single Entendre.

Henry James??

Author of "Daisy Miller"? I thought you died in 1916? I guess resurrection is true, huh?

Meret: "of course" what kind of an argument is that? If your religion is like most, it teaches that you can not have been visited by spirits, with or without a medium. so you need to chose your religious faith or your faith in the spirit world, because you can't have both.

and of course since there's no way to prove the absence of an afterlife, no one can put religion out of business that way.

Of course there is life after death and yes I have been visited by spirits. If there is no life after death, then religion will be going out of business very soon.

Anonymous's Nonsense, Part II

The new president of Harvard University, in her inaugural speech, just said of her institution

"we challenge those who would embrace unquestioned certainties" at the University that has a "tolerance for heresy."

Mormons and Catholics excommunicate heretics who challenge the church's unquestioned certainties.

Anonymous says, nonsensically, that Science is Just like Religion.

Christians are Certain, unquestioningly, that Jesus is the Son of God and rose up into the sky in his resurrected body after being born to a virgin,

and that in due time all of us will follow.

"Science has not yet answered the question of what happens to human consciousness after the death of the body "

Uh, yes it has...... the light goes out. Consciousness ends...

The question "what happens to the soul/consciousness after death" is a religious question, without religion, the question makes no sense....

And the bible never explains magnets! AH HA! Gotcha!!

Anonymous's Nonsense

A, i can see why you wouldn't want to sign your name to the nonsense contained in your last post. But I love you anyway.

So Science and Religion are equivalent means of exploring what is true, eh? That is, they employ the same methods to determine the truth.

Religious Mormons, for instance, read the Book of Mormon, pray and ask God if it's true, and if they get a burning in their chest they figure the truth is confirmed.

And scientists would approach the question the same way, right? (I could have cited 6 million other examples).

And scientists are "adamant" in their beliefs? Have you ever read any science? Is this a scientific conclusion?

Your criticism of science because it hasn't answered what happens to human consciousness after the death of the body is absurd.

There is no rational reason to believe ANY answer that a religion posits. The best answer til we get evidence to the contrary is that consciousness ceases when we die. Have you experienced consciousness after death? I did when I was on LSD.

I won't continue to critique your overlong set of baseless musings. But again, I love you madly, whoever you are.

No, No, and No... and I feel great about it :)

No, No, and No... and I feel great about it :)

No, No, and No... and I feel great about it :)

Frank Meyer,

But you have yet to encounter the historical Jesus. Go to amazon.com for the latest books on the subject.

Also check out the selection at http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html .

A complete copy of Professor JD Crossan's The Historical Jesus is online at:

http://books.google.com/books?id=AsPHR4-7Wc8C&pg=PA444&lpg=PA444&dq=%22place+of+life%22+%22the+historical+jesus%22+crossan&source=web&ots=8mVx_1M6g4&sig=XFqT8S1coAT18xq8Qwt1vMcMjW0

Science is THE RELIGION of the modern age. It would be irrational, in my opinion, not to observe how similarly adamant in their "beliefs" the "scientific" and the "religious" both are when it comes to questions of God and our existence.

Science has not yet answered the question of what happens to human consciousness after the death of the body -- and may or may not be able to answer this question. That remains to be seen in the future. To posit that science has already answered this question definitively is just as irrational as to claim that religion has. And to put all one's "faith" in whatever the temporal discoveries of science are at any given time, is likewise irrational. Agnosticism is more intellectually honest than atheism in this respect. At least agnostics admit they don't know, whereas the atheist is CERTAIN.

Religion has attempted to answer the question, largely through symbolism and metaphor, often misinterpreted LITERALLY. This literalism, in my opinion, is the similar folly of religion.

The physicist Sir John Houghton has an interesting theory, which for him, reconciles the SEEMING contradiction between science and spirituality: "God makes things that make themselves."

To address your original question about whether or not I have personally experienced "ghosts," the answer is yes. Of the 3 experiences I have had, 1 was shared by 3 other sober, rational adults and the events/phenomena involved CANNOT be explained by ANYTHING else measurable by current science, such as air, heat, light, or the functioning of our brains. I could and would challenge ANYONE to look at the evidence involved in this event and provide any other explanation for it than a deliberate act by an unseen THOUGHT PROCESS with INTENT to communicate a specific message to the 4 of us through the observable, physical event this INTENT caused. The message seemed to be simply: I exist -- whatever the "I" involved was.

We were in the midst of a casual discussion on whether or not the family home of 2 of the observers present that day was "haunted." There was a disagreement between the 2 family members as to this point (the other 2 of us, myself and my husband, friends of this family, were neutral observers of their discussion). At one point, one of these family members stated emphatically
"there's no ghost in Blue Flag (the name of this home)."

As soon as he uttered these words, a large oil painting of the home, anchored by a chain and eye-bolts into a stone wall above the fireplace in the room we occupied, and which had not been dislodged even during serious storms or hurricanes in the past, literally LIFTED UP and OUT from the wall and flew in an arc about 8 feet into the center of the room and landed with a crash on the floor in front of us, breaking the glass inside the painting's frame. The chain anchored into the back of the painting, which had been fastened to the bolts in the wall, was completely intact, and the bolts in the wall were completely intact. No break or failure of the paintings' anchors had occured -- if any had, the fall of the painting would have been very different than what we observed. The painting did not fall -- it sailed through the room at least 8 feet. There was no wind in the room -- all windows in the house, including this room were closed. It was a still, hot day in Bermuda so the central a/c was on. There was no minor earthquake or tremor (a dog in the room could have perceived such, even if we humans could not, I have observed my own dog just prior to perceptable tremors in California). Nothing else in the room shook or moved in the least, and there were many things in this room (such as papers) much lighter/more movable than a large painting in a thick wooden frame, with glass, of about 4'x4'. The timing of the event is also difficult to explain by other means, since it occured IMMEDIATELY within split seconds of the utterance by our companion: "there's no ghost in Blue Flag." What are the statistical odds that this timing would occur? That a painting that hung in a home for many years, and was never before dislodged by phenomena such as a hurricane, and which showed no evidence of mechanical tampering or failure (chain and bolts intact) would suddenly on a calm day MOVE UP and OUT from a wall and sail 8 feet into the center of the room before landing on the floor at the precise moment someone in the room disputed the existence of a ghost in the house?

I would RATIONALLY wager that if seismic and atmospheric activity on Bermuda that day were researched, they would reveal no answer. I would likewise wager that conditions of the home (such as settling of the foundation the day the event occured, for example, if this could be determined at the time or years later) would likewise yield no explanation of the timing and trajectory of this painting's movement.

And to speculate on what evidence of the existence of thought energy outside a physical body bodes for theology, YES, it does impact.

Is it all not just a well thought-out criminal activities to gain political and economic power over others?

Makes a lot more sense when that is recognized.

Julia writes:
"But that's not to say that mystical experiences cannot come upon you on their own: just ask Paul."

Julia believes Paul's mystical experience is explained by the fact that there is a God.

there are about 6,000 other possible explanations.

Julia believes it was God because she read it in a book.

Did you ever read my book "Daisy Miller" Julia? Lots of things happened to her BUT
*they were all made up."

Yes, people undoubtedly have mystical experiences. I had plenty while I was doing LSD in the 60s.

The bottom line of religion is the issue of experience. If you were raised in a culture that never exposed you to any kind of sport, and someone came into that culture and told you about round things going through hoops or being hit by sticks, your reaction might be to think the visitor mad. This isn't the best analogy because you could leave your culture and go to where basketball games are played, see one, and understand that they exist.

A person can come to religion through tradition (they learned it from their family and friends), by stumbling upon it, or through mystical experiences.

Someone who has experienced a vision of Jesus, say, can never adequately communicate that experience to someone who doesn't even believe in God. The worlds remain mutually separate.

But that's not to say that mystical experiences cannot come upon you on their own: just ask Paul.

Judaism, Christianity and Islam are forms of socially sanctioned lunacy, their fundamental tenets and rituals irrational, archaic and more importantly when it comes to matters of humanity’s long-term survival, mutually incompatible. There are names for people who have beliefs for which there is no rational justification. When their beliefs are extremely common, we call them ‘religious’; otherwise, they are likely to be called ‘mad,’ ‘psychotic’ or ‘delusional.’ ‘’ To cite but one example: ‘’Jesus Christ—who, as it turns out, was born of a virgin, cheated death and rose bodily into the heavens—can now be eaten in the form of a cracker. A few Latin words spoken over your favorite Burgundy, and you can drink his blood as well. Is there any doubt that a lone subscriber to these beliefs would be considered mad?’’ The danger of religious faith is that it allows otherwise normal human beings to reap the fruits of madness and consider them holy.’’

Criticizing a person’s faith is currently taboo in every corner of our culture. On this subject, liberals and conservatives have reached a rare consensus: religious beliefs are simply beyond the scope of rational discourse. Criticizing a person’s ideas about God and the afterlife is thought to be impolitic in a way that criticizing his ideas about physics or history is not.’’

A zippered-lip policy would be fine, a pleasant display of the neighborly tolerance that we consider part of an advanced democracy, if not for the mortal perils inherent in strong religious faith. The terrorists who flew jet planes into the World Trade Center believed in the holiness of their cause. The Christian apocalypticists who are willing to risk a nuclear conflagration in the Middle East for the sake of expediting the second coming of Christ believe in the holiness of their cause. Such fundamentalists are not misinterpreting their religious texts or ideals. They are not defaming or distorting their faith. To the contrary, they are taking their religion seriously, attending to the holy texts on which their faith is built. Unhappily for international community, the Good Books that undergird the world’s major religions are extraordinary anthologies of violence and vengeance, celestial decrees that infidels must die.

In the 21st century when swords have been beaten into megaton bombs, the persistence of ancient, blood-washed theisms that emphasize their singular righteousness and their superiority over competing faiths poses a genuine threat to the future of humanity, if not the biosphere: ‘’We can no longer ignore the fact that billions of our neighbors believe in the metaphysics of martyrdom, or in the literal truth of the book of Revelation,’’ he writes, ‘’because our neighbors are now armed with chemical, biological and nuclear weapons.’’

I have a particular ire for religious moderates, those who ‘’have taken the apparent high road of pluralism, asserting the equal validity of all faiths’’ and who ‘’imagine that the path to peace will be paved once each of us has learned to respect the unjustified beliefs of others.’’ Religious moderates are the ones who thwart all efforts to criticize religious literalism. By preaching tolerance, they become intolerant of any rational discussion of religion and ‘’betray faith and reason equally.’’

The human need for a mystical dimension to life like mysticism and other forms of knowledge, can be approached rationally and explored with the tools of modern neuroscience, without recourse to superstition and credulity.

At this time Islam is the reigning threat to humankind. Much like a gruesome, Inquisition-style Christianity of the 13th century only leads us to believe not all cultures are at the same stage of moral development,’’ I couldn’t help but think of Ann Coulter’s morally developed suggestion that we invade Muslim countries, kill their leaders and convert their citizens to Christianity.

I will say this of Faith: it has been the foundation of every religion, every cult, every sect, every religious terrorist organization that desired to gain advocates whose will greatly exceeded their intelligence. When a religion asks that its followers believe all that it declares, and to do so without evidence, it speaks volumes of the intent and meaning of that religion. These churches, temples and mosques, they will keep their followers in the shadows of millennium past. Evolution is still howled as the great enemy of faith. It simply has the greatest following of scientists and evidence. It's not scientifically that any religion has ever tried to debunk Evolution. They brought forth no evidence. They claimed no new discoveries. Their only tactic was to point to tattered and very old scriptues -- to flip through the pages, and read the rancid words, almost as if they were pure gold. Faith does not require investigation, or evidence, or demonstration, or observation, or logical deductions. It simply requires that a person believe, in spite of what evidence may say: it requires that a person blindfolds themselves when demonstration is shown, to use earplugs when anyone speaks of logic, and to turn away at every reason for them to believe what Faith tells them is wrong. Those cults and sects which have utilized violence for the realization of their apocalyptic future -- they required nothing but the willpower and a great deal of Faith.

My opinion - err, I guess your opinion as well, are utterly meaningless, regarding issues of the afterlife - if we have no evidence or proof. Many offer what they think - but that is often swayed by preferences and upbringing. Science doesn't offer us a lot of help. I don't believe people's stories - as there are a lot of story tellers out there.
I could read everyone's entries and side with the majority vote. Or I could see who is most convincing. Or just trust the guy with the PhD, or a degree in religion. But - I choose to look to the great religious leaders. Of them - no body compares to what Jesus did and taught. He backed up His words with miracles...and fulfilled prophesy. I had religion for 21 years - but it gave no answers. Then I became a Christian. Jesus spoke of heaven and hell - why not read the Bible? "Heaven or Hell" by Bill Bright, is an easy to read summary. Buy it on ebay.

First You have to ask yourself How yuo come to the world, And who create you for this shape , Do you think the world that you look everyday simply came as it is, When you thin all these and all around you , you know whether there's life after death

First You have to ask yourself How yuo come to the world, And who create you for this shape , Do you think the world that you look everyday simply came as it is, When you thin all these and all around you , you know whether there's life after death

To answer the three questions succinctly: No, No, and No.

I have never believed in the continuation of individual life or consciousness or "soul" after death. Belief in life after death is merely wishful thinking, based on tens of thousands of years of superstition and curiosity, and buttressed by powerful institutions that have acquired and exercised power in THIS world and THIS life by promising eternal rewards or threatening eternal punishments after death.

Enn
you did write
"intolerance is hardly the province of believers."

were you imprecise, or did you intend to say what your words convey.

if you DID mean to say what you appear to mean, then your words have little relation to what actually happens on planet earth. that was my clear point.

if you consider that a "rant", you continue to speak a different brand of English than is descibed in accepted dictionaries of the English language.

And by dismissing my statements as "rants" you avoid the necessity of defending your opinions. I can see why you would want to avoid having to do so.

Henry James :
“Emm
I see the source of our difference in point of view. WE clearly live on different planets.
You write "When one comes to see his/her own position as universally applicable it leads almost inevitably to intolerance and worse. And intolerance is hardly the province of believers.'
On this planet, fundamentalist believing Muslims fly planes into buildings owned by infidels.
Christians say Jesus is the only route to salvation.
Believers say atheists have no morals.
ETc etc etc.
(not all of them of course, but many many times now and throughout history.
What happens on your planet?”

-- I fail to see how your comments in any way address my points. Your sarcasm contributes nothing to the rational discussion of complex issues. A rant is not an argument.

WE SHOULD ALL UNDERSTAND THAT LOVE IS MOST IMPORTANT AND TRY TO UNDERSTAND HOW WE ALL INTERPERT THE BIBLE. gOD LOVES US ALL WE NEED TO DO WHAT HE SAYS AND LOVE HIM BACK

I've had visitations from a dead relative. When my father died, many times I thought I could see him out of the corner of my eye, pottering around in the garden, and there was even a "supernatural" occurrence.

I think it was about a week after he died, when something really strange happened. I found the bathroom door in his house locked from the inside!! This of course freaked me out. Everyone thought it was a communication from my father. But being the rationalist that I am, I eventually figured out how it happened. To lock the door, you had to turn a latch downwards. It was a windy day, the bathroom window was open and the door was rattling in the wind. I found that by rattling the door the latch tended to fall down into the locked position.

If I was a believer, I would have taken it as evidence for an afterlife and I would have stopped looking for any other explanation, but being a non-believer, I figured out the real explanation. I think it is incidents like that getting exaggerated due to poor memory, wishful thinking and re-telling that lead to most of the "evidence" for the supernatural, well that together with fraud and exploitation of people's beliefs by various psychics and mediums as well.

So do I believe in the afterlife? NO. I don't think there is any reliable evidence. And yes I have read all about NDEs and I spent about ten years of my life searching very hard for evidence of something more than this world and this life, but every time I have looked closely at anything supernatural, I have always found that either the evidence isn't there, or there is a better natural explanation.

Regards,
Realist

Do you believe in life after death? Have you ever been visited by the spirit of a dead relative or friend? Do such visions or visitations have any theological meaning?

In answer to the first question I hope there is life after death because my life has not exactly been a happy one. In answer to the second question, the closest I have come to spirits is having had an auditory hallucination while having a mystical experience and having had many powerful dreams last in waking life with a haunting effect. Also I have experienced many strange coincidences which make me wonder...But of course a scientific response to my replies for the second question could consist of observing that auditory hallucinations are closely related to words coming in a fit of inspiration (as if from someone or something other than one) and many people are haunted by dreams which last into waking life. As for coincidences...I would rather not go into all my theories of interpretating such...

I have no answer to the third question although almost anyone can make an answer (meditate on connections, etc.).

But let me take a different tack and ask what exactly would become of the human race if we had irrevocable proof there is no life after death. What effect would that have on our lives, politics, morality, etc.?

It seems the human race through intellect has acquired an advantage over animal life for obvious reasons, but the human race also seems stunned and does not live strictly biologically like animals, does not believe itself to be merely individuals within a species living and dying and reproducing and all that exists is this process. Humans believe in life after death, etc. Now if humans were to have irrevocable proof there is no life after death--that in fact man proceeds exactly like any other animal species and just has more intellect--human life would be animal life operating at higher pressure, humans conscious unlike animal life of having to perpetuate the species...It seems our intellects have given us obvious advantages, but we live with the disadvantage of feeling ourselves individuals and not wanting to die, and therefore for all our intelligence we might actually compromise the process of existing biologically as animals do unconsciously...Intelligence quite simply might not fit us for life as much as we like to believe because quite simply we spend much time believing in life after death--and proof of no life after death before we somehow can live with intelligence and understand that all we are are individuals within a species that must go on or there is nothing? We really have to wonder about the effects on politics, etc. of an intellectual realization that all that exists is individuals within a species...

In the meantime I just live to the best of my ability as if subjected to some sort of cosmic test or punishment I have brought on myself...I have many imaginings and I am still working out the value of believing or discarding such (wondering whether something has to be true to be valuable, necessary, etc.--positive and negative effects of sheer imagination and paradox of imagining correctly leading to deeper truth).

But it would be nice to have some sort of life after death as a reward for trying one's best to live some sort of noble and dignified life.

Planet Earth to Emm

Emm opines, with no backing or evidence or arguement, that "to believe one is devoid of superstition or fantasy is itself a fantasy."

On planet earth, a commonly accepted definition of Superstition is
" A belief, practice, or rite irrationally maintained by ignorance of the laws of nature or by faith in magic or chance."

Out here on the Reality-based planet earth, i know lots of people who are so intintesmally characterized by this definition as to be "devoid of superstition" for all practical purposes.

Emm goes on to say
"it’s believing that ones own judgments are specially endowed with ultimate wisdom or significance that is the pitfall."

Aside from the fact that the way this sentence is phrased makes it essentially meaningless,

there has been an ongoing scientific exploration/conversation on the nature of, pardon the term, reality for the last 2500 years, often suppressed by Religious bodies,

and there is good reason to think that a belief in the law of gravity and the process of evolution and the second law of thermodynamics is a belief in "ultimate wisdom", or the Truth about how the universe operates.

And that, for instance, the Genesis story of creation is a nice fable but it is a lot of bunk as far as its non-metaphorical explanatory power goes.

At least that is how reational people on planet earth tend to see it.

Finally, yes, you're right, most humans have anxiety about death. Some choose to believe in a fantasy God who will deliver us from death and evil.

Some choose (Buddhists for instance) to develop a spiritual practice that doesn't rely on supernatural (do you have that word on your planet?) mechanisms and that deals in a moral and courageous and compassionate way with death anxiety.

choose your poison. i choose the Buddhist way over the DEus ex machina way. And I *believe* that way is a more "grown up" way to confront the problem of death.

Love
Henry

Emm
I see the source of our difference in point of view. WE clearly live on different planets.

You write "When one comes to see his/her own position as universally applicable it leads almost inevitably to intolerance and worse. And intolerance is hardly the province of believers.'

On this planet, fundamentalist believing Muslims fly planes into buildings owned by infidels.
Christians say Jesus is the only route to salvation.
Believers say atheists have no morals.
ETc etc etc.
(not all of them of course, but many many times now and throughout history.

What happens on your planet?

Life after death is a reality that can never be changed, its not in hand in every person, and i believe we will be raised after death and we will have to reply about our deeds what we doing in this life, some people are confused and ask how its possible that we can be raised, well i have a very well example for them to understand

we dont see when we bow a seed in a field/for, it grows n give fruit,

if seeds can be grown n give fruit then Allah is capible to raise us and there is life after death, and if wanna know more about this issue i suggest them read the Holy Book, The Quran, and its the only book you can get reply of your question and confusion,

there is written about all the matters in your life you have to deal so one who is eager to know about many facts of this life and life after death , must read it,

Thanks,

Asim

Life after death is a reality that can never be changed, its not in hand in every person, and i believe we will be raised after death and we will have to reply about our deeds what we doing in this life, some people are confused and ask how its possible that we can be raised, well i have a very well example for them to understand

we dont see when we bow a seed in a field/for, it grows n give fruit,

if seeds can be grown n give fruit then Allah is capible to raise us and there is life after death, and if wanna know more about this issue i suggest them read the Holy Book, The Quran, and its the only book you can get reply of your question and confusion,

there is written about all the matters in your life you have to deal so one who is eager to know about many facts of this life and life after death , must read it,

Thanks,

Asim

Life after death is a reality that can never be changed, its not in hand in every person, and i believe we will be raised after death and we will have to reply about our deeds what we doing in this life, some people are confused and ask how its possible that we can be raised, well i have a very well example for them to understand

we dont see when we bow a seed in a field/for, it grows n give give fruit,

if seeds can be grown n give fruit then Allah is capible to raise us and there is life after death, and if wanna know more about this issue i suggest them read the Holy Book, The Quran, and its the only book you can get reply of your question and confusion,

there is written about all the matters in your life you have to deal so one who is eager to know about many facts of this life and life after death , must read it,

Thanks,

Asim

Henry James:

To believe one is devoid of superstition or fantasy is itself a fantasy. And we are of course all forming one judgment or another all the time. But as I’m sure you might concede, all judgments, like all opinions, are not created equally. It’s not having judgments that is the problem, it’s believing that ones own judgments are specially endowed with ultimate wisdom or significance that is the pitfall. When one comes to see his/her own position as universally applicable it leads almost inevitably to intolerance and worse. And intolerance is hardly the province of believers.

As I’ve discussed previously, the energy that animates most of the stridently held positions discussed on this forum spring form the fears and anxieties about death that befuddle all human beings, which are, as I’m sure you know, discussed at some length by Becker and others.

Who Is Allah?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=bcdCG6uiHEQ

Jay.

I get where you are coming from. The bio chemistry is really the only thing we can measure right now. Even with consciousness exploration we use bio chemistry and bio feedback to measure what happens in the brain.

For instance the work at Monroe Institute and their hemi-sync technology works against the bio chemistry of the brain to reproduce brain waves that produced or at least set the stage for an OOBE. They start by analyzing Robert Monroe’s brain waves during his OOBE’s. It was easy to measure since he could do leave his body at will. (or create this experience at will depending on what you believe)

While these experiences could be explain by bio chemistry the part I find most interesting is the consistency of experience of others who have been able to OOBE via hemi-sync. This consistent story of the other realms and state(s) of consciousness and the information gather from entities in this realm certainly suggests another level outside the body.

If true I find the possibilities this presents to be very exciting. People need different levels of evidence to produce some level of faith in a concept. Then at some point the concept is proven true or false.

I guess we could have stopped when we discovered the molecule. How could there be anything smaller than that? Science can not explain everything so we should keep contemplating, pushing new ideas and exploring. Conversely to find something that we can’t explain and pin the hopes on what someone or some book has said and just take it at as gospel is naive in my opinion.

If one thing has been proven to date it is the fact that there is always more. More than science currently knows, always more than man knows and always more than religion knows. A lot of people seem to have real trouble with the last one.

O CHRIST-WORSHIPPERS! WE WANT AN ANSWER
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KndM91aV_bk&NR=1

Emm my Friend
Thank you for disagreeing with me. Few dared do so when I was alive, given my eminent reputation.

Your reasoning would suggest that one is not permitted to have the opinion that one way of thinking or behaving is more mature than another.

That to do so is committing the sin of being
"judgmental." All humans are and must be judgmental all the time. Should i marry this person or that person? will that dress look better on me or will that one.?

One needn't be "reflexive" about it. A good critic examines her prejudices constantly. And I was the best of the best.

It is an empty criticism to castigate someone for being "judgmental", he said judgmentally.

Since I am not King, i can not behead you for disagreeing with my judgments of course.

Surely you have a working definition of "superstition or fantasy." You truly think everyone is as prone to these habits as others? You are jesting, are you not?

I know loads of people who are effectively devoid of superstition and fantasy. Must be the crowd you hang out with.

As to my capitalizations: there are elements of everyone's styloe that others may find tedious. I suspect some might feel the same about elements of your style.

Thanks for the comments, Rob. I question whether there is truly evidence that anything other than biochemistry is involved in making us what we are. Certainly the best evidence we have is that our personality, memory, and thoughts are all products of entirely physical processes (neural and neurochemical). The numerous studies on brain injury support that. Not that we know most things about brain function, but I await the evidence that something other than biochemistry is involved.

As you presumably already knew, I'm not a dualist and do not believe any of what we call the "soul" survives physical death.

Jay S.

I an a theist but not religious. My take on it is that the body and more specifically the brain is simply the tool or machine that links our soul or consciousness to this physical realm. I would suggest that the ‘real’ you as you put it is not affected by the injury.

In my belief even when uninjured we may not really be aware or know our true self. My readings and experiences have led me to believe in the conscious, subconscious, superconscious and supraconscious. The first two are scientifically accepted if not outright proven. The others are less proven but the concept is that superconsciousness is the higher self if you will, that which exists outside of this realm and supraconsciousness is God consciousness or all that is and that on some level we all are attached to all 4 levels. It is a matter of how aware one becomes of each level.

As I said in my earlier post I think the exploration of human consciousness can teach us much about ourselves, our religions and how we may better exist in the physical realm. It comes down to do people feel there is at least enough evidence or even compelling arguments to say let’s explore these concepts more. I say yes there is.

To state the last two levels of consciousness as fact is a little presumptuous, but I strongly believe they exist. To me it makes sense from the articles and books I have read as while as experiences I have had during meditation.

So where is the soul when a body is brain dead but kept alive by machine? I would answer where it has always been, but perhaps from our perspective as corporal beings that the connection to this body has been broken, perhaps forever. Perhaps the existence of brainwaves is merely the connection being present. No one knows and right now all we can do is hypothesize. The of idea of taking a hypothesis and exploring it and at some point proving or disproving it has been what has moved man’s scientific and intellectual knowledge forward. Why stop when it comes to consciousness and religion? After all if you believe in God, he created us with this capability. If you don’t believe in God then this is what has been working for us so far. Either way continuing to explore seems like a noble endeavor.

This is more about levels of human consciousness than religion though what we learn of the last two levels of consciousness certainly can turn some religious teaching on its ear. While there are plenty of hair brain ideas on the subject there is legitimate research on human consciousness. That is what I choose to follow.

Henry James:

“I can NOT agree with you that every response is as good as any other to the pain of knowing we will die.”

--- I never suggested that every response is as good as any other. I did say that “Some ‘solutions’ and stories may be ‘better’ and/or more eloquent than others, but every solution has its limitations and no one escapes the limits of his or her humanity in the process. The danger with any story is coming to believe that it is the last word on the subject. When people come to accept their story as the only ‘grown up and mature’ one, they tend almost reflexively to become intolerant and judgmental of others.” And I think this is an accurate statement.

“People who accept in a grown up way that they and everyone is going to die and do the spiritual work to come to terms with that without superstition or fantasy are acting more maturely, in my judgement.”

--- I’m not sure whom you would nominate to be “without superstition or fantasy”, but I’ve never met anyone who I could thus characterize. While I have met lots of folks who have made this claim, I’ve never been anywhere near convinced by their assertions. In my experience everyone has their personal superstitions and fantasies, especially with regard to their preferred worldview.

By the way; what’s with the capitalizations? Personally, I find them a bit tedious and silly.

To youth and youth only:
Friends,
Being a youth in today's world can sometimes be discouraging. Sometimes it's hard to make friends; sometimes friends or others you have trusted don't live up to expectations. In times of discouragement, if death seems like an "out" please know that there are so very many wonderful people pulling for you, who will do their best to help you if you're discouraged. Don't be hesitant to seek out someone who will listen, even if everyone seems too busy or doesn't seem interested. There are caring people right where you are--don't be afraid to look for them, and say, "help me sort things out."

You are a gift to the world. You add something to your community that no one else does. Thanks for bringing that uniqueness to those who know you. Peace to you.

I'd like to hear a good explanation from a theist, or anyone else who accepts the idea that there is a body-mind duality, to the following questions.

If you assume we have a "soul" or however you want to describe the sum total of your personality, memories, and thoughts, what happens to it when a person suffers from advanced Alzheimer's? Where do those memories and personality attributes go?

If a person is rendered brain-dead but physically still alive from oxygen starvation, is there a soul still present in the body?

If you suffer a physical brain injury that significantly alters your personality, memories, and thinking processes, is your soul (the "real you") still in there somewhere? Or has it too been altered by the injury?

In other words, where do you draw the line between the "physical you" and the spiritual essence of you that allegedly survives after your body has failed?

In the sense that you all are talking about, No I do not believe in life after death. However,
as a Christian, we are tought that once we die, our souls lie in wait for the rapture and then Jesus will lift those that are dead in Christ first and we will live with Christ in Heaven. Then once the "great" tribulation (not the tribulation) has happened we all will return to earth after God/Jesus has cleaned it up of all the filth and Earth will be our home. And it's funny because some Christians don't even believe that. But as a Christian, we have "ETERNAL" Life through Christ. Because once we are dead physically doesn't mean that we are dead to God. To die is to gain according to the scriptures. Not saying I am ready to die but when I die, because I have lived my life for Christ, I will gain eternity. Agree or disagree, the WAPO asked my opinion and I gave it.

The soul is the creation of mind. When the mind
is gone so is the soul.Conscienceness is a
product of an organic substance, when it dies
so do you-period.

EMM
i will agree with you in following Wittgenstein: we don't KNOW that we continue after death. We DO KNOW that we die. We do know we and others grieve this fact.

I can NOT agree with you that every response is as good as any other to the pain of knowing we will die.

Let's take an example:
Fred know his business is going bankrupt. (dieing)
He can either
a. put all his faith that God will give him some money that he will find in his back yard and save the business.
or
b. raalistically accept reality, declare chapter 11 and try to restructure his thinking about the problem.

People who think God will save them from death are living in Fred's Fantasy land (not that there's anything wrong with that).
People who accept in a grown up way that they and everyone is going to die and do the spiritual work to come to terms with that without superstition or fantasy are acting more maturely, in my judgement.

Can I prove that I am right? No one can, but there is loads more evidence on my side than on Fred's Fantasy side.

Do i love those people who fantasize: absolutely. I fantasize for a living: it's called writing fiction. But I label it fiction

To throw another log onto the fire...

In the weeks before my brother-in-law died, he saw and spoke to "people" that my sister and I could not see or hear. When I told a co-worker about this, she said her mother-in-law did the same thing before she died. The hospice workers at her mother-in-law's hospice said that they see this happening frequently. So I ask you, has anyone else had similar experiences?

My brother, when he still alive, said that when he dies and goes to hell, he would eventually end up running the place. Everyone agreed. Paul was a take charge guy. For me, hell would not be such a bad place. I could become one of his lieutenants.

It helps having contacts. If you think life here is hard, dog-eat-dog and all, imagine how hard it would be to advance in hell.

Theories of life after death have included the soul's taking up residence both in heaven and in hell. These days one hears a great deal about heaven and very little regarding hell. Even satanists are not very informative as to the nature of life after death in hell. To be fully informed believers in life after death should be interested in conditions in both realms since the way they live their lives implies they will be spending some time in each place. This is a very important matter about which there is little information- any volunteers for a visit to the hell?

Theories of life after death have included the soul's taking up residence both in heaven and in hell. These days one hears a great deal about heaven and very little regarding hell. Even satanists are not very informative as to the nature of life after death in hell. To be fully informed believers in life after death should be interested in conditions in both realms since the way they live their lives implies they will be spending some time in each place. This is a very important matter about which there is little information- any volunteers for a visit to the hell?

Sure, why not an afterlife for all those gullible men and women who easily become preys to their religion, whether Christian, Jewish, or what have you!

Most people are not content with the life they live. They feel insecure, and that feeling of insecurity renders them vulnerable to their religion's promise of an afterlife.

But that is all that religion can offer--a promise. Religion is incapable of offering proof that there is in reality an afterlife. Not one of the billions of people who have died, I daresay, have ever reappeared whether in the flesh or some other ethereal form and proved to their relatives and loved ones that an afterlife is for real.

"Dust thou art, and to dust returneth." That is what the Christian bible says somewhere--and that is all there is once life is extinguished!

Everything and all things on and inside planet earth, whether fauna or flora, whether visible or invisible but animate, are subject to an immutable Natural Law of Cycles: birth, growth, adolescence, maturity, decline and death.

As a matter of fact, all things and everything in our solar system, including the sun itself, is subject to this immutable Natural Law. Some 5 billion years from now, our sun's store of hydrogen and helium will run out and our sun dies, and with it everything and all objects--planets and other space debris orbiting it. Our solar system will have reached the end of the cycle--death!

Our own galaxy, the Milky Way, is subject to this immutable Natural Law of Cycles--as are all other heavenly bodies and clusters of bodies in our Universe.

But even as solar systems and galaxies die, new solar systems and new galaxes are born, out of stellar dust. Thus the Universe goes own--probably forever in space time.
MarPatalinjug@aol.com

Sure, why not an afterlife for all those gullible men and women who easily become preys to their religion, whether Christian, Jewish, or what have you!

Most people are not content with the life they live. They feel insecure, and that feeling of insecurity renders them vulnerable to their religion's promise of an afterlife.

But that is all that religion can offer--a promise. Religion is incapable of offering proof that there is in reality an afterlife. Not one of the billions of people who have died, I daresay, have ever reappeared whether in the flesh or some other ethereal form and proved to their relatives and loved ones that an afterlife is for real.

"Dust thou art, and to dust returneth." That is what the Christian bible says somewhere--and that is all there is once life is extinguished!

Everything and all things on and inside planet earth, whether fauna or flora, whether visible or invisible but animate, are subject to an immutable Natural Law of Cycles: birth, growth, adolescence, maturity, decline and death.

As a matter of fact, all things and everything in our solar system, including the sun itself, is subject to this immutable Natural Law. Some 5 billion years from now, our sun's store of hydrogen and helium will run out and our sun dies, and with it everything and all objects--planets and other space debris orbiting it. Our solar system will have reached the end of the cycle--death!

Our own galaxy, the Milky Way, is subject to this immutable Natural Law of Cycles--as are all other heavenly bodies and clusters of bodies in our Universe.

But even as solar systems and galaxies die, new solar systems and new galaxes are born, out of stellar dust. Thus the Universe goes own--probably forever in space time.
MarPatalinjug@aol.com

Sure, why not an afterlife for all those gullible men and women who easily become preys to their religion, whether Christian, Jewish, or what have you!

Most people are not content with the life they live. They feel insecure, and that feeling of insecurity renders them vulnerable to their religion's promise of an afterlife.

But that is all that religion can offer--a promise. Religion is incapable of offering proof that there is in reality an afterlife. Not one of the billions of people who have died, I daresay, have ever reappeared whether in the flesh or some other ethereal form and proved to their relatives and loved ones that an afterlife is for real.

"Dust thou art, and to dust returneth." That is what the Christian bible says somewhere--and that is all there is once life is extinguished!

Everything and all things on and inside planet earth, whether fauna or flora, whether visible or invisible but animate, are subject to an immutable Natural Law of Cycles: birth, growth, adolescence, maturity, decline and death.

As a matter of fact, all things and everything in our solar system, including the sun itself, is subject to this immutable Natural Law. Some 5 billion years from now, our sun's store of hydrogen and helium will run out and our sun dies, and with it everything and all objects--planets and other space debris orbiting it. Our solar system will have reached the end of the cycle--death!

Our own galaxy, the Milky Way, is subject to this immutable Natural Law of Cycles--as are all other heavenly bodies and clusters of bodies in our Universe.

But even as solar systems and galaxies die, new solar systems and new galaxes are born, out of stellar dust. Thus the Universe goes own--probably forever in space time.
MarPatalinjug@aol.com

Sure, why not an afterlife for all those gullible men and women who easily become preys to their religion, whether Christian, Jewish, or what have you!

Most people are not content with the life they live. They feel insecure, and that feeling of insecurity renders them vulnerable to their religion's promise of an afterlife.

But that is all that religion can offer--a promise. Religion is incapable of offering proof that there is in reality an afterlife. Not one of the billions of people who have died, I daresay, have ever reappeared whether in the flesh or some other ethereal form and proved to their relatives and loved ones that an afterlife is for real.

"Dust thou art, and to dust returneth." That is what the Christian bible says somewhere--and that is all there is once life is extinguished!

Everything and all things on and inside planet earth, whether fauna or flora, whether visible or invisible but animate, are subject to an immutable Natural Law of Cycles: birth, growth, adolescence, maturity, decline and death.

As a matter of fact, all things and everything in our solar system, including the sun itself, is subject to this immutable Natural Law. Some 5 billion years from now, our sun's store of hydrogen and helium will run out and our sun dies, and with it everything and all objects--planets and other space debris orbiting it. Our solar system will have reached the end of the cycle--death!

Our own galaxy, the Milky Way, is subject to this immutable Natural Law of Cycles--as are all other heavenly bodies and clusters of bodies in our Universe.

But even as solar systems and galaxies die, new solar systems and new galaxes are born, out of stellar dust. Thus the Universe goes own--probably forever in space time.
MarPatalinjug@aol.com

Sure, why not an afterlife for all those gullible men and women who easily become preys to their religion, whether Christian, Jewish, or what have you!

Most people are not content with the life they live. They feel insecure, and that feeling of insecurity renders them vulnerable to their religion's promise of an afterlife.

But that is all that religion can offer--a promise. Religion is incapable of offering proof that there is in reality an afterlife. Not one of the billions of people who have died, I daresay, have ever reappeared whether in the flesh or some other ethereal form and proved to their relatives and loved ones that an afterlife is for real.

"Dust thou art, and to dust returneth." That is what the Christian bible says somewhere--and that is all there is once life is extinguished!

Everything and all things on and inside planet earth, whether fauna or flora, whether visible or invisible but animate, are subject to an immutable Natural Law of Cycles: birth, growth, adolescence, maturity, decline and death.

As a matter of fact, all things and everything in our solar system, including the sun itself, is subject to this immutable Natural Law. Some 5 billion years from now, our sun's store of hydrogen and helium will run out and our sun dies, and with it everything and all objects--planets and other space debris orbiting it. Our solar system will have reached the end of the cycle--death!

Our own galaxy, the Milky Way, is subject to this immutable Natural Law of Cycles--as are all other heavenly bodies and clusters of bodies in our Universe.

But even as solar systems and galaxies die, new solar systems and new galaxes are born, out of stellar dust. Thus the Universe goes own--probably forever in space time.
MarPatalinjug@aol.com

If ever there were a subject about which Wittgenstein’s aphorism “Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must remain silent” applies, surely it is with regard to whatever comes after our bodily deaths. Such discussions may be ‘necessary’ in some way, but for myself they are at best uninteresting.

Henry James:

Certainly, religion can be “a denial of death mechanism”, but so can agnosticism, atheism and science. The impulse to deny death is an existential and psychological one. No human being is exempt from this universal dilemma. The mechanisms vary by individual, group and culture, but the need to find a solution is universal. Some ‘solutions’ and stories may be ‘better’ and/or more eloquent than others, but every solution has its limitations and no one escapes the limits of his or her humanity in the process. The danger with any story is coming to believe that it is the last word on the subject. When people come to accept their story as the only ‘grown up and mature’ one, they tend almost reflexively to become intolerant and judgmental of others. I find it personally useful to remember Russell’s suggestion that “it does not matter what you believe, so long as you don’t altogether believe it”. Skepticism of others is easy enough, but skepticism of ourselves, especially where our worldviews are concerned, is essential if we are to keep things in a balanced and healthy perspective.

I saw a movie called Ghost and it happened! And Darby O'Gill and the Little People had some banshis who rode a neato stagecoach.

But, back in the real world? NO! Spend the time your would normally waste worring about the fairy tale afterlife on life. It would be time well spent.

Three-part question, three-part answer:

1. Why call it "death" if it isn't? "Life after death" is an oxymoron. Oxymorons are nonsense. Of course I don't believe in it.

2. No, and I've never been visited by any other supernatural/paranormal ooga-booga, either -- not in 53 years. Hmm. I've been left out, I suppose. Maybe I smell funny.

3. Since theology is almost wholly concerned with magical thinking, I suppose so -- to magical thinkers.

Z-Bob

Said it well:

"In a global religious climate where too many "believers" of differing faiths look forward to a reward in the "afterlife", I urge people to experience the peace and joy of the "kingdom of heaven" , “nirvana” , “paradise” NOW."

Living in the now, if experienced Absolutely, will lead to Heavenly experience of now. Thus every moment becomes Absolutely Relative.

A dichotomy? Yes. Rejoice! To BE or not to BE?

I take solace in these words by John Gibson Lockhart (1794-1854). It expresses both the hope and the unknowableness of an afterlife. After watching the deaths of parents and many friends,I am becoming more and more inclined toward the view that "when it's over it's over."

There is an old belief,
That on some solemn shore,
Beyond the sphere of grief
Dear friends shall meet once more.
Beyond the sphere of Time
And Sin, and Fate’s control,
Serene in changeless prime
Of body and soul.
That creed I fain would keep,
That hope I’ll ne’er forgo;
Eternal be the sleep,
If not to waken so.

I agree with Jeff. The question about life after death is like any other question about the physical universe. Such questions must be answered using scientific principles. Just because one believes something does not make it true.

And Z-Bob is absolutely correct about focusing on this life instead of on expectations of an afterlife. That's a big part of how religion distorts morality, defining it as the wishes of a deity instead of the effects of actions on the self and others.

I agree with Jeff. The question about life after death is like any other question about the physical universe. Such questions must be answered using scientific principles. Just because one believes something does not make it true.

And Z-Bob is absolutely correct about focusing on this life instead of on expectations of an afterlife. That's a big part of how religion distorts morality, defining it as the wishes of a deity instead of the effects of actions on the self and others.

Since most organized religions teach that the dead do not contact the living (only God can), and that the use of mediums is idolatry, how can we cite contact with the dead as support for our faith?

No, the after life is a myth. Sorry folks no heavenly hosts for you!

It is fascinating to read believers in contact with the "other side" cite same in support of their faith. Most organized religions teach that such contact is reserved for God, and that use of mediums is idolatry. you can't have it both ways.

I have my doubts. I think most talk of life after death is just political manipulation of people to make them behave in an orderly way. Afterall, if they have nothing to worry about after they die, how do you make them behave in this life? That being said--and this is 100% true--a friend of mine was killed in a car accident about 20 years ago. Shortly after his funeral, he literally appeared before in my living room smiling and letting me know he was OK. It was amazing. Not scary and 100% 3-D. I had no drinks or drugs. He just smiled at me sitting in the chair across from me for about 10 seconds. Then he was gone. So maybe there is something to this. Maybe I was hallucinating. We'll all find out eventually.

Been dead, resuscitated. No afterlife for me.

I think it is time you got some KNOWLEDGEABLE Buddhists on your list. It is really silly and bit insulting to ask this question and not have a Buddhist and a Hindu as part of the discussion team.

I think it is time you got some KNOWLEDGEABLE Buddhists on your list. It is really silly and bit insulting to ask this question and not have a Buddhist and a Hindu as part of the discussion team.

Well, we've all seen the youtube videos of the iPod in a blender: In goes the iPod, on goes the blender, out comes a pile of dust. So, where did the iPod go? All the same stuff that went into the blender also came out, but in a different order. But what is that organization/order that was lost without the stuff to make it real? Is that the 'soul' of the iPod and where did it go?

sorry... last anonymous post was mine

The ‘best evidence’ I have read are the books from Robert Monroe, particularly Far Journeys, and the subsequent research which conducted by the Monroe institute on human consciousness. This research continues today and when you look at the facts it very strongly suggests that we are more than our body.

Add to that Walsch’s Conversation with God series, standard religious text and personal accounts of contacting the dead, NDE’s and absolute time as Z-Bob discusses and there certainly seems to be a lot to at least evaluate. The idea of absolute time certainly proposes some interesting questions on death. If I die in one time line, but not another then the body dies, but not the consciousness. It also pokes numerous holes in traditional religious teachings.

To me traditional religious teachings seem to have a very juvenile understanding of what science suggests is true or at least is possible. What baffles me is the reluctance to expand the teachings and contemplations. I believe those who look to enhance the understandings and interpretations of traditional religion based on what we can know are on the right path if your goal is to understand more about the ultimate reality of both the here and now and the afterlife.

I believe the exploration of human consciousness is the next key to our evolution. We can use our intellect and scientific methods to expand our knowledge and more accurately answer the questions that many people have. If as I suspect there is life after death and this comes to be a more common understanding of what it is I think it releases all of us from the shackles of our current beliefs, both theistic and atheistic. The theist will be freed from the man made rules and understandings that limit them and atheists will have their playground expanded. I say expanded because after life does not necessarily need to mean there is a God. And if there is a God afterlife does not define who/what he/she really is. It simply means there is more…there always is.

When I was learning arithmetic in grade school, I had trouble understanding "zero," even operationally. Professional mathematicians still don't claim to understand it fully. I am inclined to think that the same difficulty arises with the notions of "nothing" and "nothingness" inasmuch as they are extensions or analogues of "zero." Even such crude fantasmagoriae as Heaven and Hell are easier to grasp than nothing/nothingness, and displacing them from our minds by such notions as nirvana or oneness is easier than falling back on nothing/nothingness. Until, that is, we try to remember what life was like before life. We all have that condition in our pasts. One cannot assert positively that there is no life after death, nor that there is: When Socrates defended the belief in Plato's Phaedo, his arguement put the burden of proof on the denier, an impossible burdern because you reall cannot prove a negative, and therefore just a bit of a rhetorical trick. I can, however, with some assuredness, assert that life-after-death represents a failure of imagination, and is no more than an artifact of a self-aware neuro-chemical system that more easily genrates imagery than thought. Call that agnosticism if you like, but it renders the wisdom of the sages irrelevant to the discussion. I do not believe their wisdom, nor do I any longer even find any reason to wonder about it. I wonder and marvel, rather, at life before death.

Even atheists consider the idea of an afterlife. Who wouldn't? When you lose someone you love dearly, or consider your own pending death, the mere possibility of an afterlife is an inviting thought and can provide some solace. It's exactly what a human would consider when faced with such loss.

The big difference is that those of us who look to evidence to inform us on what is likely to be real or unreal have to consider the complete lack of evidence for an afterlife. It would be wonderful if there were one, and there perhaps is a chance that there is one, but... I think we really have to focus on the one life we know we have and leave the afterlife as a mostly harmless fantasy.

I appreciate reading several of the posts on this topic, particularly Stevens-Arroyo's insights and point of view. It is a complex subject, despite attempts at nay-saying. I do agree with Viejita's final sentence, and with Stevens-Arroyo's. Thanks.

Yes, No and No.
I think this unhealthy fascination with extrasensory phenomena has to do with a deep-seated dissatisfaction with the material world. It seems very similar to the promises of the medieval church: Don't worry about this world and your place in it because you'll be on top after you die.
I do think that we will eventually find out that some of what we now see as spiritual or psychic occurrences actually have physical causes, and that the two realms (spiritual and physical) will not turn out to be mutually exclusive.

In disappointed in On Faith. I would have thought that they'd have the marketing acumen to hold this question until HALLOWEEN. Then, they could have included goblins and hobgoblins in their question.

Will no one stick up for the goblins and hobgoblins? They're just as real as Jesus and Mohammed. Equal rights for equal sprites!
:)

I believe in life after death. I have asked God for forgiveness of my sins and believe in God and that Jesus is the son of God. I base my reasoning on the Holy Bible, which is the foundation of my faith. The Bible tells me that I will have an everlasting life once I die here on earth. I am very thankful for the wonderful life I am experiencing during my life and ever greatful for the promise of a place in heaven. We have all been given the gift of free will, to think and choose for ourselves and I think that I will reside in heaven after death and also think there is a hell. I have chosen all of my actions in life. God bless!

When I was a toddler, two or three, I almost drowned. During this incident, I became aware of another dimension -- or reality, and I desperately wanted to be there. I understood the difference between heaven and earth, as it were. I was stopped from moving into the light by the dance of a ballerina that kept me mesmerized until I was brought out of the water and back into "life." It changed my life considerably. Instead of feeling a part of what was going on around me, I now felt separate. Instead of feeling "normal," I now felt I dwelt in the deepest of shadows from which I peaked out to see what was happening around me.

It was the beginning of a lifetime of visions, and of seeking to understand and know God.

For there to be life after death there has to be separation of the mind from the body. But if the mind is separate from the body, then how can it ever communicate with the body? And if the mind does not communicate with the body, in what sense is it even related to the body? So, life after death is impossible.

I understand the emotional appeal of life after death. But that emotional appeal is just an additional reason to be suspicious of the belief.

The Choice:
Keep Believing in Heaven
or
Grow Up

and come to terms in a mature way with the fact that we are all going to die.

Religion is largely a denial of death mechanism. And a way of displacing the sufferings of this life into a fairy tale afterlife where everything will be peachy.

Read the Pulitzer winnng The Denial of Death (e Becker) for some practical and spirtual guidance
to accepting the reality of this life, and finding meaning without believing in fairy tales.

It is good to dream. It helps get through the tough times.

Along with Professor Borg, Professor Crossan is another in the "don't know and don't care" about the afterlife club. And both professors have reviewed the scriptural texts thoroughly putting them in a class above most of us.

With respect to Hell:

Father Edward Schillebeeckx, the famous contemporary theologian, has a different take on Hell. He reasons that the Singularity does not tolerate imperfection in its spiritual realm. Therefore, any soul dying in mortal sin will simply disappear since Hell, the imperfect state, does not exist.

Do I believe in life after death???

I am here, aren't I?

Many artists and buddhists believe that the energy that coalesced around our bodies continues to circulate in the universe when we die.

Come to think of it, physicists believe that too.

Such buddhists and artists have a highly developed spiritual cum rational understanding of life after death. Listen to Mahler's Resurrection Symphony. But don't put your stock in heaven or hell, is my advice to you. Or a resurrected corpus.

Yes, Sally, I indeed know what you mean. I was just speaking to a co-worker of mine. Yesterday it was raining hard and at the end of the work day I decided not to take 295 and instead went down MLK Highway through Bowie to 197 heading towards Laurel. As I was riding, I started to smell a woman's fragrance. As I am allergic to fragrance, I knew it was not me. I had an AVON bag on the seat and picked it up to make sure that there was no fragrance on it. I'm not afraid of spirits because I have had them around me several times. God has given me the gift of knowing things are going to happen before they do. I don't discuss this with many people as they are naysayers. Anyway, the spirit danced around me all the way home. I said out loud to her, I don't know who you are because I can't recognize your fragrance. I have had 3 women pass in my life that I am very close to and I know their fragrances. As I went on up 197 and hit B/W Parkway Baltimore, the fragrance still lingered. I was at peace though. The fragrance was so strong that I actually "sneezed" as it makes me do in real life. When I arrived home, I said okay, I'm home and got out of the car. The spirit did not follow me in the house, I thought, but, now that I think, there was a sound of something falling and I looked all around and did not see anything out of place.
I ate dinner and went upstairs to look at TV. This is not the first time that a spirt has been in my car and around me. I'm never afraid, but, instead embrace their presence. To God be the glory.

Yes, Sally, I indeed know what you mean. I was just speaking to a co-worker of mine. Yesterday it was raining hard and at the end of the work day I decided not to take 295 and instead went down MLK Highway through Bowie to 197 heading towards Laurel. As I was riding, I started to smell a woman's fragrance. As I am allergic to fragrance, I knew it was not me. I had an AVON bag on the seat and picked it up to make sure that there was no fragrance on it. I'm not afraid of spirits because I have had them around me several times. God has given me the gift of knowing things are going to happen before they do. I don't discuss this with many people as they are naysayers. Anyway, the spirit danced around me all the way home. I said out loud to her, I don't know who you are because I can't recognize your fragrance. I have had 3 women pass in my life that I am very close to and I know their fragrances. As I went on up 197 and hit B/W Parkway Baltimore, the fragrance still lingered. I was at peace though. The fragrance was so strong that I actually "sneezed" as it makes me do in real life. When I arrived home, I said okay, I'm home and got out of the car. The spirit did not follow me in the house, I thought, but, now that I think, there was a sound of something falling and I looked all around and did not see anything out of place.
I ate dinner and went upstairs to look at TV. This is not the first time that a spirt has been in my car and around me. I'm never afraid, but, instead embrace their presence. To God be the glory.

There is no scientific evidence supporting the contention that there is some sort of "life after death," so I do not believe it exists, period. Belief in an afterlife, or "heaven" is a desperate attempt to avoid the reality that our lives are finite and fragile.

In a global religious climate where too many "believers" of differing faiths look forward to a reward in the "afterlife", I urge people to experience the peace and joy of the "kingdom of heaven" , “nirvana” , “paradise” NOW.
In my opinion, the central question to the inquiry into an "afterlife" is the determination of the nature of eternity. It appears that most people who are discuss this topic are presuming a "Newtonian" view of absolute time and excluding from the discussion the theory of absolute space-time as espoused by Einstein and Minkowski. While I will not attempt to explain the intricacies of the theories of relativity, suffice it to say that Einstein thought that the distinction between past, present and future is an illusion. While most of us continue to interpret our existence in the universe by perceiving the material manifested world around us by employing the skills we inherited through biological evolution, modern theoretical physics has, of course, extended our manner of interpreting the universe to forever alter our understanding of reality. Albert Einstein stated that “since there exists in the four dimensional structure (space-time) no longer any sections which represent “now” objectively, the concepts of happening and becoming are indeed not completely suspended but yet complicated. It appears therefore more natural to think of physical reality as a four dimensional existence, instead of, as hitherto, the evolution of a three dimensional existence.” Einstein went on to state that there is not a true division between past and future, but rather a single existence. In other words, the distinction between past, present and future is an illusion.
Every moment of spacetime is a timeless entity in and of itself.
Eternity may not be endless time but, instead, eternity may be the timelessness of each moment which never "passes away" from the overall existence within absolute spacetime. Therefore, if eternity is timelessness and our conscious experiences are eternal, then our actions and thoughts exist in this timeless eternity.
We have evolved to psychologically misinterpret much of "true" physical reality as Einstein and his progeny have expressed in not only the theories of relativity but also in quantum mechanics.
If all of our conscious moments are timeless and, therefore, part of the great timeless whole or oneness, then how do our thoughts and actions affect our own "heaven" or "hell"? Do our selfish thoughts and actions "send" us to "hell" for that eternal timeless moment? Do our selfless, altruistic thoughts and actions "send" us to "heaven" for that eternal timeless moment?
These questions cannot be fully answered in this lifetime by someone like me. However, if you look at the essence of the teachings of all of the great spiritual teachers throughout history, you will find the answer to the question of how to act and think in every moment of your life to touch a part of the "kingdom of heaven" “nirvana”, “paradise” NOW.