Readers’ Responses to Our Question (175)

They(disbelievers) plan, Allah (The Creator, The Sustainer)also plan, Allah is the Best Planner (Al-Qu'ran)

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Sally Quinn asks whether the problems in the Middle East are religion or politics, and whether or not it matters.

Religions come and go, but politics is forever.

The same dynamics were evident in the Middle East millennia ago, long before the Hebrew Religions were a twinkle in some expat's eye. The geology of the area has not changed in even more millennia, and it seems likely the last change was climatic (wed or dry periods). Which suggests that the same conditions obtained then as now. In the absence of the technology to create an artificial environment, the same problems occur every day, and over centuries, one can expect the strategies and tactics for survival to have been well honed.

As far back as we can tell, even in evolution, the tribe is the natural social unit: several extended families living and cooperating under a traditional leadership (chief, social technician (medicine man, etc), warrior leaders, etc). The test of what works is the environment itself, and absent a significant technology, people actively engaged in survival seem to work best this way.

The extent of social organization is limited to the autonomy of the tribe. Alliances are formed, break apart and are reformed, according to the needs of those living in the area. Such alliances are mistaken today for nations, unfortunately. The real metaorganization is tradition, most often manifest in terms of how people deal with the imponderable (life and death, etc). Language dialects are signatory of these metaorganizations.

Now, to religion.

The Hebrew religions (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) are now a cultural stream that is two and a half millennia old. Other, significantly more sophisticated, religions predate the Hebrew stream by millennia; those of the Nilotic civilizations date back to the beginning of the 4th millennium BCE, and the evidence of even older traditions is extant elsewhere.

Religions are basically the social grant, to a deity, of entitlement to dominion. All else is chrome. The original purpose of most turns out to have been the establishment of a socio/cultural identity, and within the context of a need to threaten fright and awe in an enemy (My big bad god can whup your itty bitty god's butt!!)

The force of tradition made these establishments into institutions of overwhelming political power. Having accomplished their original purpose, they are now for sale to the highest bidder; they are the ultimate political tool. Continual enforcement of such traditions guarantees their survival through the generations, and when wielded by expertise, they gain in power by that continuation. And so we see tribal affiliations with sectarian differences, and we see that everywhere religion holds sway.

Note that there are areas of the world that do not support religion: Those are the cultures of spiritism and ancestor worship, however old and/or sophisticated. There, gods wait to be supplicated instead of actively enforcing dominion. Of course, said gods are always represented by their (usually institutional) agents, the priests. So the differences in cultures that do and do not support religion is a matter of the tenor of the culture itself.

In this regard, Buddhism and Hinduism are cultural traditions regarding matters of the spirit, if you will; they are not religions. In fact, the only extant religions today are the three Hebrew religions, and even a cursory glance yields the insight into the nature of the cultures that subscribe to that sort of thing. In general, those are the cultures that remain violent and aggressive, whether by opportunity or necessity.

So the answer is that it really doesn't make any difference: Political realities based on tradition and culture make good use of religion as the optimal tool of political control.

William D. Tallman

well, as someone who viewed the religion completely from the outsdie, i countered ny personal confusion with education-
then i was no longer confused!

having no experience or exposure to islam whatsoever- i got over that confusion with knowledge-
hope you can do the same

Dear Terra

I noticed your comments in which you mentioned my name. I joined this On Faith forum seeking interfaith dialogue. I have been feeling somewhat overwhelmed reading all that has been posted about Islam. In India I was born in the South (which has never known Hindu-Muslim violence except a brief political uprising during British rule) a dozen years after the partition in 1947. India had been under nearly 200 years of British rule before India gained independence. I left India in 1987, before small pockets of a fresh wave of Hindu-Muslim violence started in certain areas of the north, and luckily it remains contained to small isolated areas. (I blame the militant Hindus as much responsible for it.) There are 138 million Muslims in India who have lived peacefully with Hindus and people of other religions for centuries. Any mention of violence in connection with Islam in India was only as a far away event in history textbooks for me and I always associated it with typical violence associated with invaders and not with religion directly and concluded the invaders sought to convert with brutal methods. I even posted links to the great work done by Muslim rulers in India during their 300 year rule. The Taj Mahal was built during the time.

Now I'm shaken, confused and distressed about what I read in connection with Islam and don't know what to make of it.

I do hope Victoria can understand how confused somebody viewing the religion from outside must feel. I'm glad to say that Victoria and I started to communicate peacefully again on Nadia Mubarak's thread. I'm relieved and peaceful about that. I have never been involved in religious discussions such as this. A post 9/11 discussion of Islam (Australians have been killed in terrorists attacks as well although the event did not occur on Australian soil) invariably makes emotions on all sides run high. I felt it was absolutely essential to read the Quran for myself, which I have.

Best wishes
Soja

a name is a personal responsiblity and acouuntability taken.

i dont think my post had any effect at all.
you still seem compelled to give unsolicited advice-

you are the first person i ever shared that poem with (well- i actually didnt share it with you- the person i shared it with got it, as did many others)that managed to find something sinister in it.
it ends with the author don marquis stating he would rather have twice the logevity and half the beauty

it is a poem about ART

dont apologize for what you didnt intend

what is the possible point of that?

if you apologize, do it taking responsibility for your actions which obviously are intended

well, you can spend more time looking at posts, and finding something hidden and dark if you want

go for it

but you seriously need to stop telling me what i think about anything at all
its not your domain

heres a hint-

ask
thats how we learn
your glass is too full for anything else to fit in

o- by the way- don marquis was an atheist

if youre seeing something else in there it reveals a great deal more about your own inclinations than anything else

do what you do, you really have NO idea what i think about psychology, as i havent ever said

why dont you ask questions and come from a postition of information instead fo conjecture?

maybe conjecture is more fun for you-
me - iprefer the respect it requires to ask and listen
i dont spealk for others

if you have some fear of posting your name- thats on you

and dont waste that juvenile faithfreedom on me

i always say-
ask a christian what christianity is

you already have a fixed idea what islam is-
not based on personal experience or study but faithfreedom and fox news -

a closed mind cant learn
if you really are interested in conversation of mutual respect im here

im off to watch wahsington journal
its islamofascism week

Victoria,

What is in a name. Victoria, the name means merely that it is nothing more than a name. It is perfectly legitimate to use any username on a discussion board. Is 'Concerned the Christian now Liberated' for instance a name? Yet he/she has been posting thousands of times and you have responded to him/her without insisting on any other name. Insight is a short name and gives an indication of what I'm trying to achieve through my my posts - share my impressions as insight for reflection.

I never suggested for one moment that I am treating you like a psychology client. Nobody is offering free psychotherapy sessions here, just sharing personal views and impressions. All I'm attempting is to throw some psychological insights into what is a discussion on religions and religious practice. Thousands of posts over nearly a year provides sufficient information for anyone to form some impressions about you based on them. I have put them forward as thoughts for reflection, not as empirical data. You or anyone else who have been reading your posts regularly are completely free to disagree with them. Giving guidelines on how a client should be approached is therefore not only out of place, but quite unnecessary since I already know it.

Thanks for the additional sociological information on US immigrants.

What you think of psychology from your perspective and what psychology thinks of you through my perspective may produce an interesting discussion. It may produce a lot of heat perhaps. Psychology 101 may be worth more than you give it credit for. You probably find it unsettling only because it has hit you where it hurts most - your practice of religion being examined under a microscope.

Muslims born in Islamic cultures, born into Islamic families, practised Islam, read the Quran, Hadiths and Sura, prayed and at some point their prayers made them give up their religion. Now they live in fear of being punished for "treason" by a religion that claims to be full of peace. So say those who shared their views on this forum, some members of Faithfreedom.org. They always quote the Quran, Hadiths and Sura to substantiate their claim that Islam has verses supporting violence etc etc. They prayed too.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum

Osama bin Laden born and raised a Muslim in a Muslim culture and family is a very pious man. He prays regularly and in his mind he is fighting for Allah and he is convinced that Allah will reward all who fight for a just cause. He encourages Muslims to take up arms and blow themselves up in middle of crowds of innocent Muslims and non-Muslims, fly aircrafts into buildings, drive vehicles into airports and crowded marketplaces. Most government around the world are having to spend millions to protect their citizens from the zealous followers of a religion of "peace." Millions of innocent people around the world live in psychological terror about an impending terrorist attack. Yet OBL claims that it is Islam that is under attack. That is a leap in logic people around the world cannot understand.

Osama bin Laden is praying too.

All Jihadists pray to Allah before they go off and blow up themselves and innocent people along with them.

Psychological insight from my perspective: Prayer in itself does not guarantee that one makes the right decision. A tree is known by its fruit. On two ocassions you posted the same poem in praise of a moth that flies into a flame and kills itself. In another context that poem would have a completely different significance. But on a forum such as this where Islam is on the defensive because angry people are wanting to know what it is about the religion you represent that makes people like OBL justify their actions with verses from Scripture, a poem like that is not exactly meant to facilitate peace. You rationalise every criticism that is levelled against the actions done in the name of Islam. Posters have provided so much information expressing their anger and concern, but you manage to find one rationalisation after another.

Now you dismiss everything by saying I'm about psychology 101, I have a sinister motive (and you are the only one with noble motives) and would like to correct me about how I ought to approach a therapy session with you. As far as I can see many many posters, Islam bashers notwithstanding, have been wonderful with you saying all the politically correct things and praising your handling of Islam bashing. But nothing changed your stance on justifying everything done in the name of Islam.

I will definitely give your posts serious consideration and learn what I can about approaching people. No, I was not offering you a therapy session, just sharing my opinion in a blunt manner to wake you up. So many have been asking you to do that very politely, with no effect whatsoever. I did it unpolitely that is all. So my apologies for any unintended rudeness on my part.

insight-

i think it is probably pretty comon knowledge that i am a muslim here- so, since this is an on faith blog- what are your own particualr religious or non-religious affiliations?

and it would help if you gave an identity such as your name.

insight- since you feel compelled to give so many unsolicited observations-

i will make one of my own.

one of roadblocks to your future career in psychology is this-

no one will open up to a therapist who starts out by telling a person what they think, how they feel, or who they are.

the key to a good therapist is listening.

that is rule number one

if you dont listen, you dont get any real insights.

there is too much judgement and that is the last thing a client wants.

a client doesnt want to be judged first, they what to be understood.

AFTER the understanding comes the advice.

its a tendency of the young to know everything.

the older i get, the less i know.

another thing is trust.

trust must be developed, and maintained.

you've already eroded my trust, and i dont even know you.

i have no desire or need to be your client- but if from a sociological perspective- you have real questions-
real, meaning non-rhetorical, then go at it.

respect is alos a nice thing to throw into the mix, and you catch more flies with honey, than you do with vinegar.

in one context -you had a point-
muslim immigrants are the most highly educated group to come to america.

but you forget to take into account that they also bring alot of relatives with them.

and you completely ignore the fact that many are coming from refugee status (north africans particularly) and theyre coming from societies that have abysmal literacy rates.

so there is unquestionably a mix.
when you get into your statistics analysis classes youll get deeper into this.

and finally, youve made quite alot of derogatory and unecessary personal observations about me.

so i find it difficult to open up to this new tact, but am certainly receptive to civility.

insight- there is so much misinformation and baseless observations stated as fact in your post- that it is difficult torespond to.

please- if its possible- it is obvious the only thing you know about me is from what soja said-

soja is wrong in her attmepts to piece together my life.

amd i am completely sure you are reading into mr patels experience something he never said- or implied.

youre seeming to operate on stereotypes-
and drawing false conclusions from incorrect information to begin with.

if you have an interest in my personal path- ask, as ive suggested soja does.
because she simply created a reality that doesnt exist at all.

also- i dont feel comfortable with your powers of perception.

ill just start with misconception number one-
do you care to name some of these so called muslim countries that are living under "sharia law"

i can only think of one-

number 2 stereotype and misconception-
have you ever been to amosque?
have you ever been in a cab?

where do you get your information?

where do you get this idea?

"You may not like the idea that psychology adds to the depth of understanding religious practice."

how do you have any remote idea what i think of psychology?

dont speak for me, because you clearly havent gotten even the tiniest insight into what i think or my feelings about soething as basic as psychology.

saying that your projected motives are machiavellian is not a statement against psychology- it is a statement against your motives.

you take wild leaps in logic with very little information.

also, its really not up to you to tell me to look at the shadows, i can figure it out on my own, and have.

youre giving me psychology 101

ican tell you havent tightened up your sociological studies- maybe in the future.

if you want to given an actual name, instead of a pseudonym- perhaps we can discuss what is of interest to you.

but you need to come out of the shadows yourself first- before you try to advise others on it.

Victoria,

If all social workers in the world were to get on to this forum and list all their duties as selfless acts, that would account for millions of posts. The same would be true if all the Catholic nuns who toil away in anonymity were to post their list of charitable works done in the spirit of their calling.

Most of what you post as selfless works is the content of your work as a nun in training in a religious order that is devoted to helping the poor, and what you do in accordance to your duty statement at jobs in shelters etc.

I'm not trying to detract from the value of your work. It is however essential to keep your work in the right perspective. Great if you and your mother have been selfless! She did it as an agnostic, not as a Muslim.

Since you are an ambassador for Islam, do give us a list of all the strictly Muslim charities you have worked for on a voluntary basis. Tell us about the amount of time you spent there and about the communities they cater to.

Victoria,

Trying to analyse your experience as a Muslim as the unique perspective of a white American woman convert is not about being obsessed with the colour of your skin. It is about highlighting the fact that your conditioning and experience is coming from a different place compared to non-whites living in Islamic cultures under Sharia law.

Muslims migrating to the US can hardly be called the average Muslim from their respective countries. US accepts only the cream from countries like Asia and the Middle East. Immigrants from Asia and the Middle East therefore represent a very elite intellectual crowd from their respective countries, not in any way representative of the average suffering masses of their countries of origin. Immigrants are known for getting all rosy eyed and suddenly over patriotic about their own countries because they are no longer in touch with the harsh realities of their countries on a daily basis. That rosy eyed phase might or might not pass, depending on the conditioning of each person, how they adapt to the values of country of their adoption and their real concern for their countries of origin.

Eboo Patel mentioned in one of his entries that he feels more discriminated as a Muslim because of the colour of his skin, implying that if one had white skin and was Caucasian looking as a Muslim one would be less discriminated. To the Muslim community a white American convert to Islam is a real feather in their cap. The well known sense of global Islamic brotherhood/sisterhood ensures blind loyalty to anyone who accepts Islam. Example: Muslims worldwide riot because a Danish cartoonist acted with the freedom that is granted to everyone in his profession. Why the Muslims didn't just register their displeasure vocally, but chose to use violence instead to show their displeasure doesn't make the religion of "peace" very endearing to those who know nothing about it. The reaction to the Pope's passing comments about Islamic history during a university lecture is another sad example. Fatwa issued to an author... Hard to convince the non-Muslims of the world that Islam is always a religion of peace.

The Franciscans devote their lives to the poor and marginalised. You spent many years as a nun in training with them. So it would be natural to expect that you spent all those years working with the poor and marginalised. Nothing particularly Islamic about it. If you had read your Quran and compared it with the Bible you would have noticed that most teachings in the Quran can be traced back to the Bible, many Bible personalities are repeated in the Quran. Giving tithe, helping the poor, fasting etc are contained in the Book. The political system of Islam (legal arm = Sharia Law, military arm = Jihad) in embedded in the teachings of the Quran. Sharia Law was constructed from the Quran and served as political guide during spread of Islam and Islamic rule. It is not taken from Christianity.

More psychology: You could have left the convent and lived as a lay person living out the Franciscan ideals. There was no need to have become a Muslim to do what you did as a Franciscan for many years. The practise of religion is conditioned by one's biography and psychology. You may not like the idea that psychology adds to the depth of understanding religious practice. Nevertheless it is true. People are driven by conscious and unconscious motives and needs. The self deceptive ego may operate in obvious or hidden ways. Meeting one's shadow is not a bad thing.

There is no morbid fascination with your private life. Just an attempt to understood your Islam from a psychological perspective. Considering the sheer volume of your posts, one cannot ignore them, especially since you are the most active Islamic ambassador on this Forum.

Thoughts for reflection, not fodder for catfight.

more muslem on muslem violence

"At least three Palestinians were killed and 30 wounded in Gaza on Wednesday in clashes between Hamas Islamists and a clan loyal to Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas of Fatah, hospital officials said.

A Hamas security officer and two members of a clan loyal to the secular Fatah movement were killed in the fighting in Gaza City, the officials said. A second Hamas officer was critically wounded, they said.

Local residents said the fighting started when Hamas security forces tried to arrest one of the clan members.

Witnesses said the Hamas force fired rocket-propelled grenades and machine guns at the clan members holed up in their houses.

The clash is one of the biggest since Hamas took over the Gaza Strip after routing Abbas's forces in a brief civil war in June."

and

"Gun-wielding Hamas security troops violently break up a Fatah wedding celebration in Gaza.

The incident came as Hamas rounded up Fatah members and supporters in security sweeps throughout in the Gaza Strip."

http://www.reuters.com/news/video?videoId=63397

Remember this, Victoria?

This is the heart of a true mother. Poor woman. Why must she suffer and die because she lives in a Muslim nation?

"A would-be suicide bomber killed himself and five members of his family as his mother tried to stop him from carrying out a Taliban-inspired attack in Afghanistan, police said Monday.

The 22-year-old man's bomb-filled vest blew up as his mother made desperate attempts to stop him carrying out his deadly mission in the southern province of Uruzgan on Sunday.

"His mother grabbed his vest and said, 'Take this off, we don't want you to do this,'" Uruzgan police chief Juma Gul Himat told AFP, citing the bomber's father who was wounded in the blast.

"This was when the explosives went off. Two of his brothers, two of his sisters, his mother and the Abdul Samad (the bomber) -- they all died."

Another child and Samad's father were wounded in the explosion and were being treated in hospital in the Uruzgan capital, Tirin Kot, the police chief said.

The interior ministry said in a statement earlier that the explosion killed the bomber, his mother, a sister and an 11-year-old brother in their home.

The ministry said the militant had been trained in a Pakistani Islamic school and was tasked to carry out a suicide attack on security forces in Afghanistan.

The police chief said the young man had arrived from Pakistan and given his family 250,000 afghani (5,000 dollars), telling them, "This is money for my funeral after my martyrdom."

"He said, 'I am going to carry out jihad against the foreigners and go to paradise,'" Himat said.

His horrified mother tried to take the suicide vest off him, saying "We don't need your money, we don't want you to go to Paradise this way," Himat said.

Afghanistan has suffered more than 120 suicide attacks this year, most of them claimed by extremist Taliban insurgents, killing scores of people, mostly civilians.

Nearly 50 people have died in three such attacks in Kabul in the past month, all claimed by the Taliban, which was in government between 1996 and 2001.

The latest was on October 6 when an attacker rammed his bomb-laden car into a US-led military convoy, killing a US soldier and five Afghan bystanders in Kabul.

The United Nations Mission in Afghanistan said in a report in September that many of the men carrying out suicide attacks here have passed through religious schools in Pakistan.

Many believe an act of jihad, or war in the name of religion, will earn them a place in Paradise.

The police chief said three other men who had come to Uruzgan from Pakistan allegedly to wage jihad had been arrested."

Victoria- Sadly another day of Muslim against Muslim killing, wounding, and maiming. Who teaches a young man there is religious glory and rewards in Paradise for using his own body as a weapon against his coreligionist? This is not Peace. This is Madness.

--A SUICIDE BOMBING in a crowd welcoming former Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto killed at least 126 people Thursday night, shattering her celebratory procession through Pakistan's biggest city after eight years in exile.

Two explosions went off near a truck carrying Bhutto, but police and officials of her party said she was not injured and was hurried to her house. An Associated Press photo showed a dazed-looking Bhutto being helped away.

Officials at six hospitals in Karachi reported 126 dead and 248 wounded. It was believed to be the DEADLIEST BOMB ATTACK in Pakistan's history.

terra- you asked- i answered.

you make no response to anything i take the time to answer reasonably- instead pop off to more accusations.
this conversation is too enotional and illogical for me.

well agree to disagree
i notice you didnt bother to respond in kind to my questions
fair is fair but not here i guess
ok then
peace to you

"amazingly, at this very moment i am watching the perfect rebuttal to your claims."

Victoria- What is happening in Pakistan is the perfect affirmation of my claims. Islamic violence is a known, active, and growing problem there. There is a cancer in your midst.

"I AM TELLING YOU DEFINITIVELY AND UNEQUIVOCALLY THIS IS NOT SHARIA LAW"

Maybe you would like to announce this to the Muslim nations. You know there are no homosexuals in Iran? Quit making fanciful statements and deal with truth on the ground.

"i guess your silence is your assent"

No Victoria. My silence is indication that I actually work for a living.

as it has been elaborated on- i have been very forthcoming about what exactly i do and have done- by no means a complete list-

i notice you had no response to my question about what it is you do yourself terra.

i could post and post quite awhile about my life, which i have some small pride in.

since youve expressed such concern for the suffering of women and children, i assume you also have a lifetime of service behind you that compels you to fell some justification in questioning the actions of myself.

i warn you though, it will get quite boring if you ask for more on my part.

so, what actions do you have behind your words?

actually terra, its your turn to make a retraction-
i notice you didnt comment on the indisputable proof i provided as to the invalidity of the actions of the iranians in the link you insisted i respond to.

i guess your silence is your assent

i have obligations i must attend to now.

insha'alla we can continue in this vein.
peace

i will try to be as specific and clear as possible

-"-When will the civilized world address the problem of Muslim against Muslim violence and the oppression of women and children in Islamic societies" (answer below)

Even though you cannot or will not address this very real problem -women and children continue to suffer daily. The world must in time address it.

RE: (this is an absolutely untrue amd unfair accusation as ive addressed this issue repeatedly, and just provided links for you to read and have vociferously denounced these very issues many times)

"So you are against Shari'ah law as it is practiced in Muslim countries today?"

RE: I AM TELLING YOU DEFINITIVELY AND UNEQUIVOCALLY THIS IS NOT SHARIA LAW.

"You will admit that this Islamic inspired violence is a known problem?"

I am telling you that there are many politically motivated people out there who misuse and abuse and just plain lie about slam being the basis for their own agendas-
period

the same literalist and fundamentalist mentality that narrowly and conveniently when politically expedient factions of muslims that interpret the quran to be "inspiring violence" are knowingly lying to themselves.

amazingly, at this very moment i am watching the perfect rebuttal to your claims.

bennazir bhutto- the former PM of pakistan (if islam is so female hateful, how did a WOMAN come to be the prime minister?)
has just come back from exile into karachi.
the most extreme city of terrorist strongholds-

now- her convoy was attacked by extreme muslim terrorists of the nim laden ilk-

thank god she is ok.

the pakistani people were literally dancing in the streets in support of her- she has the overwhelming support of the people of pakistan.

she is a progressive, western friendly, liberated and powerful muslim woman-
in an interview last week, she BRAVELY revealed her intentions to return to her home, even though she KNEW that there were militant psychos lying in wait for her.

she is COURAGEOUSLY facing these misrepresentatives of islam in the public -

she has specifically and through action proven herself to be a model muslim with islamic values- who understands the difference between extremists hijacking our religion in the name of their politcal aims.

she has taken on massive reform of human rights abuses- with success. including of course women and children.

she changed the face of pakistan

and now she's back.

the vast majority of muslims in the world are following the practice of islam-

you want me to somehow be a spokesperson for the far right extremists?

i am not a spokesperson for those same idiots when they are christian, hindu or jewish.

or nationalist or secularist or atheist

extreme is extreme

open your eyes, the examples are right in front of you.

"do you have a specific question that is of some import to you?"

Once again.

--When will the civilized world address the problem of Muslim against Muslim violence and the oppression of women and children in Islamic societies?

Even though you cannot or will not address this very real problem -women and children continue to suffer daily. The world must in time address it.

"the actions of those who did that to that (Christian) couple are reprehnsible- and unislamic in the extreme"

So you are against Shari'ah law as it is practiced in Muslim countries today? You will admit that this Islamic inspired violence is a known problem?

Volume 8, Book 73, Number 135:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said,
"The strong is not the one who overcomes the people by his strength, but the strong is the one who controls himself while in anger."

peace and peace

i looked at your link-
that is definitively forbidden in islam

it is not islamically based

that couple should be protected under islamic law- which states quite coherently that thier marriage is legal and compeltely sanctioned by the quran itself-
not hadeeth- not fiqh- not sharia
the quran

let me find the passage-

here is the christian view-

"Christians unknowingly quote; Cor. 6:14-15 to support their separatist views;

"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?"

now here are the words of the quran-

"Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance." Qur'an 16:125

and

"Today the good things are permitted you, and the food of those who were given the Book is permitted to you, and permitted to them is your food; Likewise believing women in wedlock, and in wedlock women of them who were given the Book (Christians and Jews) before you if you give them their wages, in wedlock and not in licence, or as taking lovers. Whoso disbelieves in the faith, his work has failed, and in the world to come he shall be among the losers." S. 5:5

all over the world throughout history muslims and christians and jews have intermarried-

the actions of those who did that to that couple are reprehnsible- and unislamic in the extreme

the terrible thing is i had to go through about 15 links of lies by muslim haters before i could find the link to the quran itself!

and terra- you are really bordering on extreme rudeness when your only response is to scream "SHUT UP!"

as ive said before, if you want to keep it civil, fine, but i respect myself too much to allow myself to be abused, even verbally

i guarantee you never heard of islam before 911-
as im sure most of the posters here share that-

i was a practicing muslim at that time, and have watched the flood of misinformation and lies that have washed over america-

i consdier it my civic duty to present the truth, and not let the lies so oft repeated become fixed in peoples hearts.

i get no great enjoyment from being constantly attacked on these boards-

youll notice there are very few muslims because most of them got sick of being vilified.

but i have an understanding- and realize that it is peoples programmed fears that compel them to misunderstand, and the only way to combat ignorance is through knowledge and information.

so i cannot let others try to define for me what islam is- when all they have are the hateful and lying websites and fox news to go by.

people seem to expend a great deal more energy and are powerfully motivated by their fear, anger and hatred than they are by milder gentler impulses.

do you have a specific question that is of some import to you?

a real question, not a rhetorical question designed only to present a point and impossible to answer-

i reccomend the machsom link- as well as the last one, and this one too-

http://www.womeninblack.org.uk/

women in black are a coalition of women from differing faiths all united in their desire for peace

so, peace

ISLAMIC VIOLENCE IS A KNOWN EVIL--

that you are unfortunately unable or unwilling to acknowledge.

"Take a look at the poster Courtney's link and MAKE A COMMENT. You won't because you can't and still pretend Islam is a Religion of Peace."

Well, Victoria? In Iran did the Muslim government not obey the words in the Qur'an and violently lash the hell out of that Christian couple? Every reader here can see it but you. NOW SPEAK OR SHUT UP.

terra, your entire argument, or contentions, seems to be based upon a fear of wat you imagine muslims believe-
the only way to combat fear of the unknown is to counter it with knowledge of the unknow, then it becomes known, and can no longer be feared.

i know my religion-
i know that violence is expressly forbidden- and the aggressor is the lowest of people-

you continue to confuse the actions of some people with what the religion mandates.

islam is very strong in its condemnation of violence.

here is a site that might help your knowledge of islam-

http://www.radicalmiddleway.co.uk/

extremism in all forms is forbidden in islam

it is the middle way

when something good happens i say alhamdoulilah (thank the god)

when something bad happens i say alhamdoulilah (thank the god)

i hope our dialogue helps you to understand that 1 1/2 billion people in the world see islam as a religion of peace-
the very name means peace!

do not confuse the actions of extremeists with the precepts of this beautiful religion

terra, it is your opinion that islam is a known evil.

not sharing YOUR OPINION about my religion doesnt mean i ignore- or deny anything.

it seems ypou are trying to defned what i characterized as xenophobic statements by shifting some perceived fault onto me.

my whole life is spent in fighting the very things you are pointing out- actively and to my own detriment.

might i ask what you do for a living that gives you such license to denigrate an entire 1 1/2 billion people?

my life is my testament to my activism
and i just finished reading the quran for ramadan, and i do not agree withyour assessment of my religion.

certainly you can make a point using scholarship, or reasoning without resorting to some character defamation-

do you have any other point besides

"You won't because you can't and still pretend Islam is a Religion of Peace. Your constant blind support of Islam and your denial of known problems has made you an unpopular poster on these forums. Amvienna, David, Soja John, and on and on. Its really time to quit pretending, admit a problem, and begin to deal with it. Wake up and save yourself from a bad ending. "

is it really your domain to decide for me how i view my religion?

no, i wont join in the bashing- sorry-

i also dont join in bashing atheists, homosexuals, christian fundies etc...

is there anything of a positive nature that you wish to contribute?

ive been a muslim for 9 years-
it is my conscios decision entered upon without the benefit of any outside influences

i did not know any muslims when i enbraced it
i came to it through prayer and study

i would ask you and others to respect my decision , as i respect your relgious proclivities.

my success as a muslim does not imply anyone elses failure in their respective spiritual choices.

"Take a look at the poster Courtney's link and make a comment. You won't because you can't and still pretend Islam is a Religion of Peace."

Well, Victoria? You are only lying to yourself. Speak or shut up.

here terra, if you think what other people say about other peole proves something (which i contend it does not)
you might as well include all posts-

from the same blog-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Victoria,

You really are superb, endowed with both a great erudition and balanced values.

And congratulations for your clear-sightedness and great humanitarian vlues.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

all it proves is that people agree and disagree, hardly a revelation

Victoria- My original post was to draw attention to a known evil. It wasn't addressed to you. You responded. My anger is not towards you. I don't know you. Your posts are onesided and you are in denial about violence that festers and ignites in Muslim communities. Now that is ANGER and if you are an active Muslim don't try to pretend you don't know what I'm talking about. The world is waking up to this sad and scary reality and many Muslims are questioning what has become of their faith. Take a look at the poster Courtney's link and make a comment. You won't because you can't and still pretend Islam is a Religion of Peace. Your constant blind support of Islam and your denial of known problems has made you an unpopular poster on these forums. Amvienna, David, Soja John, and on and on. Its really time to quit pretending, admit a problem, and begin to deal with it. Wake up and save yourself from a bad ending.

yes that was amvienna made that post-
amvienna and i often butt heads over our historical perspectives

particularly when it comes to issues of turkey
i asked amvienna one time if they lived in vienna- and commented that there is a statue in the middle of the main square that celebrates where the europeans fended off the turks-


amvienna has no problem with my knowledge of history, just that i am a muslim.

i notice you neglected to post a rebuttal that was given to amvienna in my defense-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
AMviennaVA: why are you trying so hard to bully other posters? Why so much vitriol?

"You always find a way to defend the Muslm establishment"??? WHAT are you talking about? Do you think the TURKS represent the Muslim establishment? Now that's pretty funny, judging by most of the Turks I've met.

"I don't know whether you can understand what I will say next, but frankly you have no credibility."--isn't that a personal attack--the last refuge of a losing argument?

To each his own opinion, but maybe you should consider chilling a little."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

so being in alignment with another poster who, when they feel their argument is being deconstructed , responds with personal attacks-

doesnt exactly prove that my narrow perspective

terra- dont know why you have such antipathy towards me

you dont like muslims, ok- but you should try not to put everyone in a box because of their beliefs

and you can do things that are positive and contribute

trying to attack someone whose views differ from yours doesnt make you more valid

as for being an amercan woman- so are you- what does that prove?

i have a lifelong history of helping poor and abused women

my mother was taking women into our home when i was growng up, and i continued
when i was 16 and my other friends were partying, i was getting straight A's and taking care of an abandndoned baby left at our house by an abused girl whose family beat her so bad she couldnt function
and it goes on and on and on

i started my first job at 13, and at 14 started a lifelong committement to volunterr work and service to my fellow humans.

my last job was in an abused womens homeless shelter where i worked 12 hours every day-
feeding 250-350 women and children 3 meals a day, directing people to services, and helping to run the donation center.

and allll the stuff in between, which spans many many years-
you really need to take a look at why you are so threatened by me, personally.

i think your anger is misdirected
but im strong, i can take it
better you vent on me than someone else

Here's a link to another lovely example of the Religion of Peace:

http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=12781

Victoria- Taking a stand against a known evil is not zenophobic anger it is righteous anger.

You say that "one cannot blame an ideology for the actions of people-" Well. A people base their actions on a chosen ideology. Wherever on this earth the Islamic ideology has traveled suffering, violence, and poverty has spread and women and children are on the recieving end. I have seen firsthand this suffering and I can say an American woman like yourself would not last a minute. You are all talk- but there is no talk and only submit and obey.

I am not alone in feeling you offer only Islamic propaganda to the Wapo online forums. I read this on PostGlobal this morning:

"Sorry Victoria. I have read your posts ofr a while, and you ALWAYS find a way to defend the Muslim establishment. Even when it oppresses other Muslims. I don't know whether you can understand what I will say next, but frankly you have no credibility."

You post comments on almost every topic but they all carry your very narrow unreal theme. Please wake yourself up before it is too late.

lets try to use this forum to find ways to cooperate and support each other

i missed your point because it was based on a sort of xenophobic anger-

i would no more blame islam for the actions of a few than i would blame judaism for the actions of the israeli military-
both are equally unfair accusations
one has to be able to make the distinction between religiously motivated actions, and politically motivated actions

going to the source and catalysts of the problems is the way i try to make an active change in my own small way

blaming the victms after the fact is a useless activitly- a negative and hurtful activity that adds to the problem and becomes a part of it.

i try to find peope within the groups that are in contention adn find bridge builders-

http://coalitionofwomen.org/home/english/organizations/machsom_watch

however, if you want to talk to palesinian women, or sudanese women (you wont find any saudi because they maintain separate mosques- unless you want to cover your head) go to your local mosque- you will find them there in abundance.

terra- im making a plea for civility in dialogue.
its my conversations with these very ladies you cite that lead me to my conclusions- which are- one cannot blame an ideology for the actions of people-
it is the people who are responsible.

it is not necessary for me to travel to another place to hear stories of such experiences.
they are living and breathing in my mosque and the places i volunteer.

we all do what we can.

certainly i condemn all acts of violence you noted-

but i think one of the greatest mistakes is to lump people in little easily hated groups-

for instance- i am anti-zionist-

by no means am i foolish or racist or close minded enough to include all jewish people in that category-

i in no way seek to hate israelis either for this ideology

the works of the machsom watch for example- i admire and support wholeheartedly

http://coalitionofwomen.org/home/english/organizations/machsom_watch

lets use this forum to support each other and encourage each other to action and unity

terra- im making a plea for civility in dialogue.
its my conversations with these very ladies you cite that lead me to my conclusions- which are- one cannot blame an ideology for the actions of people-
it is the people who are responsible.

it is not necessary for me to travel to another place to hear stories of such experiences.
they are living and breathing in my mosque and the places i volunteer.

we all do what we can.

certainly i condemn all acts of violence you noted-

Victoria- You are misreading my point. Like much of the Islamic world, you seems anxious to overlook well documented problems. Do you honestly believe women are not oppressed in Muslim communities? Come to Palestine, Sudan, Darfur, Iran, Saudi and speak with the women. As a self-proclaimed Muslim woman who stands against the American government you ought to actually live in a Muslim country. You want to excuse the rapes, beatings, and mutilations. And do you think any woman would willing raise her child to exalt murder and suicide? If you were living in the midst of such horror, you might not so easily dismiss it. This is like your willingness to pretend that genicide has not been commited against a group of people and is not being committed as we post. You seem to have drunk the koolaid and will espouse any lie for the glory of the cause. You know, in the end judgment will fall on you. Open your eyes.

now im going to watch my idiot in chief insult both china AND russia in one fell swoop-

can anyone say worldwide nuclear conflagration?

who thinks china will side with russia who sides with iran?

anyone? anyone?

anyone care to contend that the religious hatred spewed by russia and china is at the core of their attitude towards the US?

show of hands? anyone?

anyone remeber when our idiot in chief stubbornly refused to apologize to china when that spy plane flew into chinese airspace, but instead insisted china return the plane?

right before 911?

and lets not forget korea.

anyone still feel like pouring billions into the hands of israel and going to war with iran to protect them?

did you read what you posted terra?

i seriously think you did not-

this a a report by watchdog observers of the progresses made in countires of note-

here are the parts where palestine is discussed-

REDA ABDELHADY NASSER, Observer of Palestine, said that 2007 marked the fortieth anniversary of the Israeli military occupation of Palestinian territory, including East Jerusalem, during which time Israel had violated international law. The occupation had placed a huge burden on Palestinian women, who faced a unique and tragic situation that needed international attention. How could the rights of Palestinian women advance, and how could they be empowered, when they had been denied basic rights? The safety and well-being of Palestinian women and families had been seriously threatened by Israeli military operations. Difficulties had been exacerbated by Israeli settlements, the ongoing illegal construction of the Wall, and more than 550 checkpoints as well as a racist permit regime on the West Bank.

The situation in the Gaza Strip was dire, resembling an open-air prison, with poverty rife, she said. Somewhere in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, a Palestinian woman was suffering, watching her home being demolished or her land being confiscated, or grieving the loss of a family member. Somewhere, she either dreamed of returning to her homeland, awaited release from jail to rejoin her family, or was asking how much more pain and hardship she and her family had to endure. Palestinians wanted peace and they hoped that current peace efforts would bear fruit, resulting in an independent Palestinian State with East Jerusalem as its capital. Israel had to cease its illegal policies and practices. The international community had to ensure that Israel complied with its obligations under international law. Palestine was grateful to the United Nations and other international organizations for the valuable assistance they had given to Palestinian women and their families.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

thats the report from palestine-
there is also a report from israel that discusses the dismal inclusion of women into their government despite resolutions passed to include them as representatives-

i wont include israel for brevity

the statement you made was a REBUTTAL and CONTESTED opinion of the observer from israel-
here it is-

under the right of reply-

israel rebuttal-

Right of Reply

The representative of Israel, speaking in exercise of the right of reply, referred to the statement by the Observer for Palestine. She said that Israel had full sympathy for the suffering of innocent Palestinian women, and that much had to be done to ease their suffering. Brave leadership, however, was needed by the Palestinians to end terror. Palestinians, not Israelis, had been killing their own daughters and sisters in the name of family honour. During clashes between Fatah and Hamas, women and children had been killed. First and foremost, Palestinian women had been victims of their own society, forced in some cases to carry out terror attacks. Israel was pleased to hear that the Palestinian people wanted peace, but how did the firing of rockets demonstrate a desire for peace? But looking at developments on the ground at this moment, there was good reason for optimism, she said, adding that the road to peace would be followed by Israeli and Palestinian women, together.

````````````

THIS WAS FOLLOWED BY A PALESTINIAN REBUTTAL IN RIGHT TO REPLY

The Observer for Palestine said the Israeli delegation had attempted to make several arguments that were out of context. The Palestinian people were undergoing a painful chapter which they sought to overcome. Palestine recognized the wrongs and had condemned any unlawful actions, she said, especially regarding Palestinian women and their families.

Sixty years of occupation far surpassed any actions committed by Palestinian individuals or groups, she said. Using terrorism as a pretext to "justify the unjustifiable" was a tactic used by the Israeli occupying Power. Peace in the region was a vital necessity that all must work for. Israel must cease its violations of international law and allow people to experience life in peace and security, where all rights were respected.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

SO THIS ACTUALLY PROVES THE POINT I MADE, AND THANK YOU FOR PROVIDING THIS INFORMATION

as you can see, the endless finger pointing and accusations of hatred projected onto the other aRE PART OF THE PROBLEM

THIS REPORT IS AN ATTEMPT TO COME TO A SOLUTION, NOT ADD TO THE PROBLEM.

"60 years of opression, occupation, and murder will do that to a people?"

Religious fueled HATRED will do that to a people.

thanks for the link terra- heres the whole article
Rural women face problems of discrimination and manifold disadvantages
GA/SHC/3887

affected women

By Emergency:
DPR Korea

East Africa Drought

Myanmar

Occupied Palestinian Territory

Sahel Humanitarian Crisis

Southern Africa Humanitarian Crisis

Sudan

West Africa
By Country:
Burkina Faso

Democratic People's Republic of Korea

Ethiopia

Israel

Kenya

Malawi

Mozambique

Myanmar

Namibia

Nigeria

Occupied Palestinian territory

Senegal

Sierra Leone

Sudan

Sixty-second General Assembly
Third Committee
11th & 12th Meetings (AM & PM)

Prioritizing Rural Development Fundamental to Advancement of Women

The manifold disadvantages and discrimination which continue to plague rural women in many parts of the world was an issue voiced by many speakers as the Third Committee (Social, Humanitarian and Cultural) continued its discussion today on the advancement of women with close to 50 speakers taking the floor.

Pointing to the 85 per cent of her country's population who lived in rural areas, the representative of Ethiopia underscored that prioritizing rural development was fundamental to the advancement of women.

The advancement of women had been one of the most important items on the Third Committee's agenda, Indonesia's representative said, highlighting that violence against women was still one of the most persistent human rights violations today. It was distressing that a culture of impunity still existed in many parts of the world, he added.

While addressing the issue of sexual exploitation of women and girls, Myanmar's representative said that accusations of gang rape levelled at his country's military personnel were "far fetched" and based on unfounded reports by "expatriate" groups, who were part of a disinformation campaign against a sovereign country.

Education was key to promoting women's rights, said Saudatu Usman Bungudu, Minister of Women Affairs and Social Development of Nigeria. The Nigerian government was determined to enhance the enrolment and retention rates of girls in rural areas through increased educational infrastructure and special incentives.

Brazil also saw education as the correct way towards promoting equal conditions between men and women. In schools there, policies were aimed at encouraging non-discriminatory practices, respect for diversity and sexual orientation, as well as encouraging the interests of girls in non-traditional disciplines, the representative said.

The representative of Poland supported Portugal's statement (on behalf of the European Union) and stressed that any reference that statement made to the sexual and reproductive rights of women did not constitute an encouragement for the promotion of abortion as a means of achieving the advancement of women.

Statements were also made by the representatives of New Zealand, the Russian Federation, Turkey, India, Senegal, Malawi, Yemen, the Lao People's Democratic Republic, Egypt, Malta, Burkina Faso, Moldova, the United States, Mozambique, Israel, Armenia, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Mexico, Kenya, Tunisia, Republic of Korea, Ghana, Nicaragua, Namibia, Democratic People's Republic of Korea, Iran, Singapore, Morocco, Sierra Leone, and El Salvador.

The Observer for Palestine also made a statement.

The representatives of the Council of Europe, International Fund for Agricultural Development, International Committee of the Red Cross, Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations, United Nations Human Settlements Programme, International Labour Organization and Inter-Parliamentary Union also spoke.

The representatives of Israel, Sudan, Japan, and the Democratic People's Republic of Korea spoke in exercise of the right of reply. The Observer for Palestine also spoke in exercise of the right of reply.

The Committee will meet again at 10 a.m. on Wednesday, 17 October, to conclude its discussion on the advancement of women.

Background

The Third Committee (Social, Humanitarian and Cultural) met today to continue its general discussion on the advancement of women.

For more background information, please see Press Release GA/SHC/3886 of 15 October 2007.

JANET LOWE ( New Zealand) made her statement on behalf of Canada, Australia and New Zealand. All the countries were committed to working with the international community to uphold women's rights, she said, and also recognized the importance of addressing those issues within the United Nations itself.

Urging States to continue to work towards effective gender mainstreaming across the United Nations system, she said the international standards of the Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination against Women and the Beijing Declaration were standards that provided the international community with a constant benchmark for the fulfillment of women's rights. Welcoming progress that had been made on Security Council resolution 1325, on Women, Peace and Security, she urged States to continue to work to implement this important text.

GALINA KHVAN ( Russian Federation) said her country supported the United Nations approach to gender equality and improving the status of women. It wished, however, to see more priority given to addressing economic and political discrimination. The Russian Federation also agreed with the view of the high-level panel on system-wide coherence, supported by the Secretary-General, that the current gender architecture of the Organization was not effective, shown by the duplication of work and decrease in results. There was need for more discussion on proposals for replacing the existing gender architecture with a single body. A final decision could only be taken on the basis of broad intergovernmental consultations that took the potential consequences into account.

The Russian Federation was pleased that dialogue between States on the advancement of women had been conducted with mutual respect, even when such sensitive topics as violence against women were raised. Women's rights, improving the status of women, and promoting women into leadership posts were relevant issues all over the world, including in his country. Women there held a number of senior posts. The federal ministers of health care and economic development, as well as trade, were women, as was the Governor of Saint Petersburg city. On the whole, women made up a majority of civil servants. Genuine gender equality was a priority for Russian policy today, and last year a government committee on equality between women and men was set up to chart a national strategy for equal rights. To develop gender education, the Academy of Civil Servants had developed a project to introduce gender approaches. The Russian Federation thanked all States that had supported its candidacy for a seat on the United Nations Commission on the Status of Women.

RAMIS SEM ( Turkey) said the elimination of discrimination against women and the strengthening of gender equality were among the Government's main priorities. Turkey had taken a number of steps since the mid-1990s, including the approval of the Ninth National Development Plan for 2007-2013, which emphasized education, training and employment opportunities for women, and underlined the determination to continue the fight against domestic violence.

The 48 women elected to the Turkish Parliament in the last general elections reflected an increase of female representation from the previous term, a trend the Government would like to see continue. To further promote women's rights, Turkey hosted two meetings in November 2006. The first, the Special Ministerial Conference on Strengthening the Role of Women in Society, held in cooperation with the European Union Presidency and the European Union Commission, culminated with the adoption of the Istanbul Framework of Action. During the second, the Ministerial Conference on Women's Role in the Development of the Organization of Islamic Conference (OIC), member States took important steps towards developing common strategies, criteria and programmes, and realizing women's potential to contribute to the development of their societies.

PRASANNA ACHARYA (India), associating himself with the statement made by the chair of the Group of 77 developing countries and China, said the focus after the 2005 World Summit -- High-Level Plenary Meeting of the sixtieth session of the General Assembly -- had rightly shifted to identifying sources to finance gender and, while the primary responsibility rested with the country concerned, the international community should match its commitments by providing additional financial resources as well as technology transfer, and by sharing experiences, expertise, information and data, technical cooperation and capacity-building. Despite recent advances in the rights of women, the gap between de jure and de facto equality remained in much of the world. Speedy implementation of legislative and policy measures for greater empowerment of women and gender mainstreaming on all levels was needed. While addressing the vulnerabilities of the girl child, he said that the international community should advocate protection, welfare and development measures characterized by four "E"s: equality, education, enabling environment and empowerment.

Gender equity and equality had been a key guiding principle of his Government's Common Minimum Programme, he said. Over 1 million women at the grassroots level had been brought into political decision-making after India reserved one-third of urban and local government seats for women 12 years ago. A similar measure was being considered for India's Parliament. His country had also initiated a number of result-oriented programmes, including a National Rural Employment Guarantee and vocational training programmes. Gender-sensitive budgeting had also been institutionalized, and Parliament had enacted the Protection of Women from Domestic Violence Act in 2005. India had provided the first ever Female Police Unit, which had recently joined the United Nations Mission in Liberia (UNIMIL). His country was ready to work with the international community to realize the Millennium Development Goals through effective implementation of gender empowerment and mainstreaming within and outside the United Nations.

ADE PETRANTO ( Indonesia) said the advancement of women had been one of the most important items on the agenda of the Third Committee. Violence against women remained one of the most persistent human rights violations today, and it was distressing that a culture of impunity still existed in many parts of the world, he said.

Poverty could be more effectively tackled by integrating social dimensions into economic policies, he noted, but such policies had not been well implemented. It was only recently that the issues faced by women migrant workers –- who made up nearly half of the global migrant labor workforce -- had been recognized by policymakers, he said. Cooperative measures between sending and receiving countries must be revisited and renewed in order to ensure the protection of women migrant workers' rights. In conclusion, he reminded delegates of the upcoming United Nations Climate Change Conference to be held in Bali (3–14 December 2007), and added that it was important to enhance coherency among the Organization's agencies and bodies at the country level.

REDA ABDELHADY NASSER, Observer of Palestine, said that 2007 marked the fortieth anniversary of the Israeli military occupation of Palestinian territory, including East Jerusalem, during which time Israel had violated international law. The occupation had placed a huge burden on Palestinian women, who faced a unique and tragic situation that needed international attention. How could the rights of Palestinian women advance, and how could they be empowered, when they had been denied basic rights? The safety and well-being of Palestinian women and families had been seriously threatened by Israeli military operations. Difficulties had been exacerbated by Israeli settlements, the ongoing illegal construction of the Wall, and more than 550 checkpoints as well as a racist permit regime on the West Bank.

The situation in the Gaza Strip was dire, resembling an open-air prison, with poverty rife, she said. Somewhere in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, a Palestinian woman was suffering, watching her home being demolished or her land being confiscated, or grieving the loss of a family member. Somewhere, she either dreamed of returning to her homeland, awaited release from jail to rejoin her family, or was asking how much more pain and hardship she and her family had to endure. Palestinians wanted peace and they hoped that current peace efforts would bear fruit, resulting in an independent Palestinian State with East Jerusalem as its capital. Israel had to cease its illegal policies and practices. The international community had to ensure that Israel complied with its obligations under international law. Palestine was grateful to the United Nations and other international organizations for the valuable assistance they had given to Palestinian women and their families.

LEYSA SOW ( Senegal) said there was a common view that poverty was becoming feminized in developing countries, particularly in Africa. In families, women and children suffered the most from financial delinquency. Women were sometimes deprived of the right to property because of degrading stereotypes of them. Although some improvements had been made vis-à-vislegal status, those only affected an educated minority, she noted. Among other problems women encountered were persistent sexist stereotypes, the conservatism of families, the problem of employment, violence and abuse, poverty and the tendency of families to marginalize pregnant young women.

For all these reasons, Senegal had been putting strategies into place to advance women. Notable measures were the protection of pregnant teenagers, fighting factors that made women vulnerable to HIV, the promotion of productive savings, protection of women and children against sexual abuse and violence, and promotion of the rights of women within families. To succeed in the undertaking of social development and responsiveness to social needs, Senegal was counting on development partners in implementing policies and programmes, she said. Without ongoing political will, political stability and solidarity, Senegal would not achieve progress, she warned. But with political engagement of all African leaders, the effective promotion of gender equality could be achieved.

ROSELYNN MAKHUMULA ( Malawi) aligned herself with the statements delivered by Pakistan and the United Republic of Tanzania on behalf of the Group of 77 developing countries and China, and the Southern African Development Community (SADC), respectively. She said that in her country, over 70 per cent of all agricultural work was done by women, and their empowerment, particularly in rural areas, was a strong factor in poverty reduction programmes. The full elimination of all forms of discrimination against women was a prerequisite for achieving the Millennium Development Goals in her country.

She said that the International Research and Training Institute for the Advancement of Women (INSTRAW) was in a unique position to conduct research and provide data on the situation of rural women, and she requested that it step up its efforts. In addition, she said there was a need to maintain sustained action and develop more innovative strategies to attract more young women to decision-making positions. In that endeavour, education was key. Other priorities for her country were women's health and combating violence against women. She reiterated Malawi's commitment to the full implementation of all internationally and nationally agreed goals on women, and looked forward to increased partnerships and international cooperation on the advancement of women and gender equality.

THIDAR MYO (Myanmar), associating himself with Pakistan's statement on behalf of the Group of 77 developing countries and China, said the Beijing Declaration and the Platform for Action continued to provide a global framework for gender equality and the empowerment of women. The equal participation of women and girls in political, social, cultural and economic life was indispensable for sustainable development, he said. Despite progress, however, women and girls still did not enjoy the full benefits of economic and social development, and violence against women persisted. As long as that was the case, he agreed that no claims could be made of real progress towards equality, development and peace.

He said education was essential to breaking the cycle of poverty and underdevelopment, adding that in Myanmar, the enrolment rate of women in tertiary level education had surpassed that of men. In the health sector, the "Prevention of Mother-to—Child Transmission Programme" was launched with the United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF) and other organizations to combat HIV/AIDS. On trafficking in persons, he noted that in 2005, an anti-trafficking law had been promulgated which covered sexual exploitation, forced labour and slavery. At an international level, Myanmar had participated in various regional efforts and, in July, had submitted its combined second and third report on its implementation of the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women.

Turning to the sexual exploitation of women and girls, he explained that when his Government received accusations of torture and sexual violence against women, an investigation was carried out and perpetrators were prosecuted according to the Penal Code. Calling accusations of gang rape levelled against Myanmar's military personnel "far fetched" and based on unfounded reports of "expatriate" groups, he stressed that they had been part of a disinformation campaign against a sovereign country. In closing, he called on the international community to fulfil its commitment to increase official development assistance (ODA) to developing countries, particularly in the areas of health and education. Myanmar would continue to strive to promote and protect the rights of women and girls.

LIZA AL-KASADI ( Yemen ) said that the need to follow up the implementation of the Beijing Declaration and Platform for Action was supported by her