9/11

Thank you Moody; it takes a lot of courage to admit a mistake and ask for forgiveness. Your apology is accepted.

You certainly were provoked to lose your temper. We cannot all have the patience of our dearest friend Victoria.

On behalf of all of my fellow citizens of the terrorist state of US_Israel, please accept our apology for the heinous crimes that we have committed, and will continue to commit, against the Muslim world.

Hi,

First I'ld like to apologize for all the anger reflected in my posts, due to obvious reflected reasons. I would like to take this moment to CLARIFY, that it was not due to hate or discrimination in general against anyone, but YES against the elements which are causing such devastation, hatred and distruction between us (humans).

Hi,

First I'ld like to apologize for all the anger reflected in my posts, due to obvious reflected reasons. I would like to take this moment to CLARIFY, that it was not due to hate or discrimination in general against anyone, but YES against the elements which are causing such devastation, hatred and distruction between us (humans).

Victoria,

Congratulations on winning your much deserved award! Check it out on the following link by The Jihadist posted at 5:56 PM:

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/susan_jacoby/2007/10/cooperate_or_die/all_comments.html

THE FIRST ANNUAL AWARDS FOR READER-POSTERS OF "ON FAITH" 2007

Prizes : free continued access to On Faith until award winners wants to stop or On Faith stop.

So.........the categories and nominees for "Most" and "Best" are..... (suspenseful drum-rolls):
...

Most patient and kind Muslim:
- Victoria

...

iran was what i got when i googled

i watched an interesting documentary on pbs last night about us relations with iran

i wasnt aware that without the help of iran, america couldnt have gone into afghanistan at all after 911

america repaid their help by almost immediately declaring iran one of the axis of evil

Victoria,

Wa-alakum-asalam,

Thank you for the advice. Bye the way i try not to take the comments personaly. Infact try to judge them on merit. MOSTY THEY DON'T REPLY TO THE RAISED QUESTIONS, THE REASON I BELIEVE, THEY DON'T HAVE POSITIVE ANSWERES TO THE PRESIDENTED HISTORY OR THEIR PRESENT OPEN HYPOCRITICAL FACTS.

Note: I apologize for the typing mistake in my quick replies/posts.

Few corrections regarding my post in "Islam and Voilenc" about Indian muslim history.

1- Indian Hindu's still praise Muslim Rulers (I typed rules), thier justice and fairness. You can watch their countless historical movies and documentoris about Muslim rulers, made in recent times.
2- If India was not divided and still united then its todays Muslim population is 530 million plus(I wrongly typed 5300),
including present India 1 billion plus +
-Pakistan 160 million plus muslims
-Bangladesh 170 million plus muslims
3- Today in present India there are
-700 million Hindus
-200 million plus muslim (of there own race with no political plate form, even in one out of its 26 states)
-And 100 million Christians/other minoroties.

REST YOU CAN READ IN THE THREAD "ISLAM AND VIOLENC" topic posted in April Or May month, I guess.

AND ABOUT USA/UK OIL CONTROL, THE NAME OF ONE COMPANY IS "OPEC" THE SECOND ONE YOU CAN FIND ON INTERNET. THERE ARE ONLY TWO!!

a salaamu alaikum moody- dont let them get you down on the islam and violence thread- just ignore them and their own hate will lose steam after awhile

thats why im ignoring it

peace

DOES ANY BODY SEE THE LINKS......
EVERY BODY DO.................
There is another AND MAIN reason of USA and UK running out of options and going MAD....

According to an international report.
- Annual world oil business is of 600 billion dollars.
-The five main exporters are
Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Iran, Iraq, Nigeria
-The whole world business to these countries is done in guess only one currency, guess which...US Dollars.
-The whole world oil business deals are done by only two major companies guess which countries owned them....NO.1 USA and NO.2 U.K.
-In another words the whole world oil business is in their control.
-And guess what in 2000 their past STRONG ALLY Iraq tried to switch the transaction through Euorpion Currency Euro. WELL POOR IRAQ.....
-And guess what Iran is trying to go to Euro Currency for the last 5 years. But couldn't due to complicatied international law...guess who is controlling?????

- Poor muslims demonized as terrorist by the MONSTORS....in Iran words

- Poor Saudi Arabia blackmailed by Americans of Israels threat. They recieve dollors against oil and gave it back to buy the secondry weopons from the enemy it self.......what a pitty...HALE AMERICA....HALE ISRAEL....HALE MONSTORS...I wonder after Iran is Nucked, who is going to be next in WW3 of America.....may be they fought between themselves at the end to get the richies...after all WW1 & WW2 were for the same reasons
- After WW2 importance of OIL was very clear to western world specially winner of war and in control USA. And there was a Jewish porblem at hand at that time as well. Two main issues
i- How to remove Jews from Europe..problem for Europions, SINCE YOU CAN EASILY EVEN GUESS ABOUT JEWS HISTORY NOW...WATCHING FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE
ii- Who will control the world wealth (Oil) of course the winners (USA & UK)
- No doubt now why the whole Europe is getting united, actually it is becoming their need to survive.....DON'T THEY ALSO WANT THEIR SHARE???

HYPOCRATES AND MONSTORS JUST DEMONIZING ISLAM AND MUSLIMS FOR THIER OWN GREED!!!!!!!!

Sorry,

Anon was me.

Moody,

Have patience my dear. The truth will out. You have most things right, but one big thing wrong:

1. American president lies about WMD – True
2. American president lies about torture – True
3. Propagating war on Islam and demonizing 1.6 million Muslims – True
4. Terrorists originate from areas terrorized by US_Israel war machines – True
5. American president is a hypocrite to blame Iran for trying to start WW-III, when in practice it is the terrorist state of US_Israel which is occupying Palestine and Iraq, slaughtering women and children by the thousands, driving millions of families into refugee camps, etc, etc, etc. - True
6. The US government is controlled by Jewish lobbyists – True
7. Muslim on Muslim Shia/Suni violence in Iraq is caused by US toppling the sovereign government, disbanding the security forces, and putting nothing in place – True
8. The suicide bombers/terrorists are people with no religion except revenge for homes being destroyed and families slaughtered – True
9. But the Jew/Christian/US agenda is clear, mad lust for land and oil – True
10. The World Trade Center was destroyed by US_Israel, not al-Qaeda – False

LIES UPON LIES,
DOES ANY BODY SEE THE LINKS, I GUESS EVERY BODY DOES!!!!!

- TYPE 9/11 on google and click. You will find all type of inquires made about it.
-Documentories about buldings bombed and burning but not collapsing LIKE TWIN TOWERS.
-Buildings demolished by controlled IMPLOSION like Twin towers.
-Pantagon plane crash hole. Where is the wings impact in that hole?? Where is the debry of plane? Is there any???
-American leader ship lies about Weopons of mass distruction and ALL THE LATER ATROCITIES.
-American leader ship lies about beyond LAW MUSLIM RENDITIONS/torture..what a civilized country laws.
-Propogating war against Islam and demonizing 1.6 billion peaceful muslims as Terrorists.
-Where Terrorists(retaliators/sucide bombers) are only originated from war torn massacred area by Jews/America which are very tiny part of muslim world but right in the middle/heart of it like,
- Palistine, (Where USA in announing WW3 after 60 years of occupation and distruction in its madness, treatening to nuck Iran). USA is controlled by its 60 million Jews plus addition to 60 million in Jerusalum. There lobbiest, media, financial institutions, weapon industry all controlled by Jews, thats why I guess they are ran out of options. And only thing they can see is the distruction of world...to gain profits/wealth/more madness.......
- Iraq (where now muslims killing muslims..not before the invasion.. but now yes fueled by USA who is keeping the fuel(oil).. still dollar and wall street is crashing down)
- Chachinia
- Afganistan
- Bosnia

Sucide bombers/ Terrorist are the breed of people who have no religion accept revenge, because their homes are distroyed, families are savaged.
Ask the US army, its an open secret!!!!!

But the Jew/Christian/US agenda is very clear....more madness....not willing to learn lesson from there own history.

I always wondered why the whole Europe after second WW gathered all the Jews and moved them out of Europe. I guess histroy is repeating in USA!!!!!!!!!

LIES UPON LIES,
DOES ANY BODY SEE THE LINKS, I GUESS EVERY BODY DOES!!!!!

- TYPE 9/11 on google and click. You will find all type of inquires made about it.
-Documentories about buldings bombed and burning but not collapsing LIKE TWIN TOWERS.
-Buildings demolished by controlled IMPLOSION like Twin towers.
-Pantagon plane crash hole. Where is the wings impact in that hole?? Where is the debry of plane? Is there any???
-American leader ship lies about Weopons of mass distruction and ALL THE LATER ATROCITIES.
-American leader ship lies about beyond LAW MUSLIM RENDITIONS/torture..what a civilized country laws.
-Propogating war against Islam and demonizing 1.6 billion peaceful muslims as Terrorists.
-Where Terrorists(retaliators/sucide bombers) are only originated from war torn massacred area by Jews/America which are very tiny part of muslim world but right in the middle/heart of it like,
- Palistine, (Where USA in announing WW3 after 60 years of occupation and distruction in its madness, treatening to nuck Iran). USA is controlled by its 60 million Jews plus addition to 60 million in Jerusalum. There lobbiest, media, financial institutions, weapon industry all controlled by Jews, thats why I guess they are ran out of options. And only thing they can see is the distruction of world...to gain profits/wealth/more madness.......
- Iraq (where now muslims killing muslims..not before the invasion.. but now yes fueled by USA who is keeping the fuel(oil).. still dollar and wall street is crashing down)
- Chachinia
- Afganistan
- Bosnia

Sucide bombers/ Terrorist are the breed of people who have no religion accept revenge, because their homes are distroyed, families are savaged.
Ask the US army, it an open secret!!!!!

But the Jew/Christian/US agenda is very clear....more madness....not willing to learn lesson from there own history.

I always wondered why the whole Europe gathered all the Jews and moved them out of Europe. I guess histroy is repeating in USA!!!!!!!!!

look at the link before you make conections in your head

its about larry craig you anonymous mook

Look out Victoria -Bill Maher is in on that 911 government conspiracy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxOljd9oOzo

By the way..How big of a LUNATIC are you?

I don't know, the CNN and Fox News (Joe Scarborough) videos were good, and scary. Thanks for the BBC link.

clearly my repertoire is quite limited

Yep, that's funny to me too Victoria. You've shown that to us before. It's hilarious. I'll let you watch funny videos like that to your hearts content, just stay away from the political/religious stuff. It's always phoney anyway.

this is totally off topic- i dont usually do youtube- but this is (to me) awfully funny

as bill maher notes- the funny part (to me) is chris matthews response

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brySeA4NNks&mode=related&search=Larry%20Craig%20Bill%20Clinton%201999

i dont usually agree with krauthammer- and im surprised at his lack of mention for the catalyst of this resolution.

here is a link to the bbc-
it deals with the armenian lobby
the resolution was drafted by a congressman form cal- i cant remember his name-

Across the country, Armenian-Americans have been lobbying politicians, and publicising their view of the massacres as genocide - a suggestion the Turkish government and most Turks furiously reject.

Historians are also divided on whether this was a case of genocide. More than 20 countries have formally recognised genocide against the Armenians, however.

Given that Armenians represent only about 1.5m of America's 300m population, what has won them such influence over the US Congress - and perhaps the nation's foreign policy?

Organised lobby

Part of the answer lies in the organisation and determination of the Armenian-American lobby groups, says Dr Svante Cornell, of the Central Asia-Caucasus Institute at Johns Hopkins University.
The Armenian National Committee of America (ANCA) and the Armenian Assembly of America (AAA) are among the most powerful.

Another factor is that the Armenian-American community is largely concentrated in important states such as California, Michigan and Massachusetts, Dr Cornell said.

"You have basically a number of places where the Armenian issue is very important in local politics - especially for anybody wanting to get elected in California," he said.

"The Turkish lobby is much less organised and much less rooted in an electorate than the Armenian lobby."

'Sobering' choice

Of course, the vote - with 27 for and 21 against - was also based on representatives' competing sets of principles.
Opening the debate, Tom Lantos, the committee's Democratic chairman, acknowledged that the resolution posed a "sobering" choice.

Supporters draw a parallel between the mass killing of Armenians and what is happening in the Darfur region of Sudan today - and say the US must speak now if it is to maintain credibility on human rights.

Dr Rouben Adalian, of the Armenian National Institute in Washington, told the BBC's World Today: "In a world where genocide continues to occur, there is something to be said about acknowledging past genocides as a way of preventing others."

'Close-knit community'

For Bryan Ardouny, executive director of the AAA, the passage of the resolution "was a historic step forward" in ending what he calls the "denial campaign" of the Turkish government.

We have a very vibrant, passionate, educated constituency that feels very strongly and passionately about this

Bryan Ardouny,
Armenian Assembly of America

Readers debate US vote

"We very much appreciate the support of the whole Armenian community around the country but also the members of Congress who stood their ground and voted yes for the resolution," he said.

The AAA has worked very closely with the sponsors and co-sponsors of the resolution, he said, as well as talking to members of Congress from both parties about the issue.

The close-knit Armenian-American diaspora has also been at work educating other communities and writing to politicians, Mr Ardouny said.

"The response has been great in terms of activism throughout the entire Armenian-American community," he said.

"One of the consequences of the genocide was that Armenians came to the US. My grandparents were genocide survivors - they came to this country, they got an education, they became part of the American fabric.

"We have a very vibrant, passionate, educated constituency that feels very strongly and passionately about this and the fact it's still being denied - this is something that's painful."

'Heavy blow'

Some people argue that it is not the place of legislators to decide history - especially on an issue as fiercely contested as this one.

The resolution is expected to come to the full House before the session adjourns on 16 November.

Back in 2000, a similar resolution failed when it was withdrawn from the floor of the then Republican-controlled House at the urging of then President Bill Clinton, who said it could put at risk American lives and further inflame tensions in the Middle East.

heres the link- i edited out only turksih response and things not related but you can read it yourself- (for the sake of brevity)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7040344.stm

there are also many links on that blog

taking that into account- i think mr krauthammer may want to revise his reasoning-

however i think the dems really blew it big time

that link provided to brasscheck above on the screens below there are many many interesting snips

i LIKED the youtube vids and im going to watch more

ive seen buildings imploded because i have nothing better to do-
and it looks like an implosian to em but im no engineer

having said that- in general i HATE youtube and i dont say hate much

having said THAT im going to find my favorite youtube link to share apropos of nothing at all except i think its funny

o- the bbc ,taking into account jordan and syrian statistics, put the displaced person igures at 4.2 million the other day

last month it was 4 million

http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/171.html

What do you think of this Victoria?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/18/AR2007101801579_pf.html

I think that I agree with Krauthammer for once.

More good news compliments of our favorite terrorist state US_Israel.

More than 1.1 million Iraqis have been internally displaced...according to numbers gathered by the Iraqi Red Crescent and the International Organization for Migration. In addition, at least two million Iraqis have fled the country, with the majority heading to Syria and Jordan.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/19/world/middleeast/19najaf.html?hp=&pagewanted=print

Hi Victoria,

Stay away from this YouTube nonsense my dear friend. It will rot your brain. Besides it’s just a bunch of happy horsesh*t. You know better than that.

might as well complete the set-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeSDOb7NcgE&mode=related&search=

theres also a series on the federal reserve

thats strange- i posted 2 links and other words

but only one link and half the words showed up after my blog was held

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSW1x_h4Kfo&mode=related&search=

ok, i guess im not sleeping- that was pretty compelling-
heres the second

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECMJ2LBK90Q&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSW1x_h4Kfo&mode=related&search=
and 3rd

ok, i guess im not sleeping- that was pretty compelling-
heres the second

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECMJ2LBK90Q&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSW1x_h4Kfo&mode=related&search=
and 3rd

ok, i guess im not sleeping- that was pretty compelling-
heres the second

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECMJ2LBK90Q&mode=related&search=

have you seen any of these?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_E4N5YIycI
i only started but cant stay up-= ill watch them tomorrow-

also- did you see bush speak yesterday and mention world war 3 and then say that if anyone attacks israel they are attacking the US?

it had pundits spinning on their heads

actually i was looking for a vid of it-and came upon this instead

there are 4 for 911 and 5 for the federal reserve

its called zeitgeist and keeps getting pulled from youtube
peace

OK folks, let’s get back on topic.

And the question is: On the anniversary of 9/11, what message would you like to send terrorists?

Well here is the message for the terrorist states of the USA and Israel:

1. USA, get out of Iraq; leave Iraq to the Iraqis.
2. Israel, get out of Palestine; leave Palestine to the Palestinians.

Here is the map that is relevant:

http://www.ccmep.org/delegations/maps/palestine.html

The one on the left represents the relative ownership of Palestinian and Jewish land in 1946, prior to the illegitimate UN partition. Since, Palestine was not the UN’s to give away; this is the map we will go back to.

Here is a summary of the Brief History of Palestine:

http://www.cyberus.ca/~baker/pal_hist.htm

Note that just prior to the turn of the 20th century, the total population of Palestine was 500,000 of whom 47,000 were Jews who owned 0.5% of the land.

In 1917, at the time of the illegal and immoral Balfour Declaration, and after 22 years of Zionist immigration, the total population was 700,000 of which 56,000 (8%) were Jews.

In 1947, after 30 more years of Zionist immigration, the illegal UN partition of Palestine allocated 47% of the land to the Arab Palestinians who accounted for 70% of the population and owned 92% of the land.

In 2005, the Jewish population stood at about 5,200,000 (50.7%) compared to the 5,056,000 (49.3%) Arab Palestinian population.

So clearly, even Israelis can see that the only fair and equitable thing to do is to evacuate the 5,153,000 illegitimate Zionist Jews and descendents to Texas, leaving the Jewish population at the original legitimate 47,000 that were there at the turn of the 20th century. We could leave a few more than that to account for normal population growth demographics, without the illegal and immoral Zionist immigration.

Terrorists aren't funny, but terrorist jokes are.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJUmXpqIy4w

Moslims taking over America via the sword?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=WqzYhs8NsxM

Moslims taking over America via the sword?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=WqzYhs8NsxM

wow deb, if you and i can find accordance there may be hope for us all yet...

yes it does make good sense to me deb
peace

Victoria wrote:

"so- the point was made that the usa is acting in a very hypocritical way-
what say you?"

I have already made my disagreement with US policy on this issue. Every nation has a right to defend itself. USA cannot and should not in principle tell that attacked nation (in this case Turkey) on the specifics.

USA did decide to attack Iraq, for whatever reason it may be. USA did not listen to the wisdom of the European nations and UN. It made the case anyway - which was very sloppy. Why should it now make Turkey refrain from attacking the PKK militants ?

Well, I am not an expert on US foreign policy. But such positions do diminish USA's image and credibility. Other nations would start thinking that USA's policy is equivalent to: "All men are equal, but some are more equal than others".

Makes sense, Victoria ?

i stated-

"i think, even you, with your dislike of muslims in general- can see the base prejudice here"

well- thats not actually racist deb-
it may be an unfair observation on my part- but theres no racism implicit- just an accusation of dislike- i guess-
not the same thing at all

alright deb- point well taken- its the religion you hate and discredit at every opportunity, and not the people that you dislike

no problem-

ok- so sorry for offending your sensibilities-
since it is always muslims (including me) that you insult- it is difficult to make the distinction between the people you insult and the religion you insult-

so- the point was made that the usa is acting in a very hypocritical way-
what say you?

Victoria wrote:

"i think, even you, with your dislike of muslims in genreral- can see the base prejudice here"

That's really a racist remark, in my view, from you. I am not what you are writing here. I have no respect for a doctrine that I think is basically intolerant and violent.

I have no dislike of Muslims. They are humans as you and other non-Muslims. However, I have no patience with Islam. Its a doctrine of hate for non-Muslims. I dislike Islam. I dislike Maoism and Stalinism, but I don't hate Chinese and Russians.

exactly deb- usa did not bomb or punish germany for disagreeing with it.

but, turkey didnt disagree with the usa-
turkey is just acting in its own rights

and yet, the us decided in a congresional committee the other day to accuse turkey of genocide in armenia.

something turkey has contended that was a war with casualties on both sides.

NO ONE questions that ataturk had some crazy ideas about returning turkey to its "turkishness"

he eradicated the alphabet, and did the strangest population swap ever seen- whic made just about everybody unhappy-

turks whod lived in greece and surrpounding areas for generations were kicked out and returned to turkey

greeks and armenians whod lived in turkey for generations were kicked out

turkey invited scholars of any kind from all over the world 10 years ago, and had and does have all of its archives open to any who care to investigate it.

no one has bothered to accept that offer

the first president ofarmneia from the time mentioned-1915- wrote his autobiography-

his account as an armenian and leader wildly differs from the us opinion released

and the untied states has BANNED HIS BOOK FORM ENTERING US SHORES!!!!!!

do you find it possible that turkey is being punished and the us is abusing its strength
because turkey has elected all muslim leaders and has been proving itself a successful democracy?

on its own and without any input from the usa?

this "armenian genocide" happened 92 years ago!
in 1915!
and dont you think someone should have looked at those archives first? before making such a declaration?

why doesnt the usa call darfur a genocide?

i think, even you, with your dislike of muslims in genreral- can see the base prejudice here

Victoria:

If Turkey is gunning down PKK separatists who are killing the innocent, unarmed Turks, then that is good. A country's first obligation is to provide security to its own citizens regardless of color and creed. Foreign policy matters come later.

I am sorry, but I don't agree with USA's interference/advice/chastisement in Turkey's internal matters.

If USA disagrees with its ally, so be it. Germany's Gerhard Schroder disagreed with USA very strongly on the Iraq issue. So, what ? Did USA bomb Germany on that score ?

In a civilized democracy, envisioned by Thomas Jefferson, we all have equal rights to agree to disagree.

DEB- youve repeatedly condemned terrorists and have been strong in your support of anit-terrorist precautions.

what do you think about the US forbidding Turkey to pursue the PKK terrorists who just killed 15 soldiers across their own border into northern iraq?

do you think the Turks have the right to defend themselves against terroris attacks?

they have provided support, access, and strategic use of their land for the US and have been a stalwart ally.

This argument always leaves me disappointed in the human race as a whole. It always sounds like people are arguing over their favorite football or baseball team rather than defending their beliefs. Why must people try to press their beliefs onto to others?

Try this, believe in yourself and others, and the creator will help you all. Have faith in mankind as a whole and strive for good things for ALL, and the creator will help you all.

If you force the creator to take sides, then everyone loses. For he takes no sides. We are ALL his/her/it's children.

Peace

Religion is like a batch of prunes.

Ingest too much and it will always give you diarrhea.

Religion is like a batch of prunes.

Ingest too much and it will always give you diarrhea.

Religion is like a batch of prunes.

Ingest too much and it will always give you diarrhea.

Gentle Rick:

Israeli lobby is doing it right. Jews and Pagans (read Hindus) are the worst enemies of Islam as declared by Quran (005:082). It states

YUSUFALI: Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.

That's why Jews and Hindus are the most hated by the Muslims. The Jews have, of course, fought back. The Hindus are cowards who cannot retaliate unlike what Hermit states as "overreaction". So, what Israeli lobby is doing by taking help of USA is good. Their good effort must be cherished, instead you are condmning them.

- gentile deb

HAHAHAHA - The Islamic Propaganda League is trying to take the light off their own crimes by pointing out all the ills of others.

Only problem is - though most all text have ancient and unsavory dictates:

It is Muslims who catch our attention by
acting like animals in the here and now.
Most others gave this up centuries ago.

Nice Try Desperadoes:

You're too funny!

And now, we return to today's "Lovely Talmud" episode. Enjoy!
A Jewish man is obligated to say the following prayer every day: Thank you God for not making me a Gentile, a woman or a slave. Shabbath 86a-86b.
Besides the Talmud being a book promoting hate towards non-Jews, it also promotes violence and self torment on the Jews as well;

Victoria and Deb,

Here is a good article that highlights what should be the focus of the Islamaphobes: the Israeli Lobby that is pushing us over the edge of the abyss. Here are some excerpts:

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=26308§ionid=3510302

‘In my analysis, which is shared, for example, by Ilan Pappe, Israel's leading “revisionist” (which means honest) historian, the answer is that it's mainly the Zionist tail that wags the American dog. As I demonstrate in my epic, two-volume book, Zionism: The Real Enemy of The Jews, it is a fact that, with the arguable exception of Lyndon Johnson, every American President, including the idiot in the White House at present, tried to draw red lines that Israel should not cross; and on most occasions Israel put two fingers up and crossed them.

There is no mystery about why the Zionist lobby (AIPAC plus) has such power. What passes for democracy in America is for sale to the highest bidder, and one of the highest bidders, and certainly the best organized and the most effective, is the Zionist lobby, now in association with Christian evangelical fundamentalism and parts if not all of the MIC (Military Industrial Complex). The Zionist lobby has three main weapons of influence:

- money, apparently unlimited, to fund election campaigns (candidates who offend Zionism can be and are destroyed - outspent);

- the organized Jewish vote in close election races (in half a dozen critical constituencies); and

- the use of the obscenity of the Nazi Holocaust as a blackmail card to silence criticism of Israel and suppress informed and honest debate. (On this front the Zionist lobby is assisted by the fact that, out of fear of offending Zionism, the mainstream media in America and throughout the mainly Gentile Judeo-Christian or Western world is complicit in Zionism's suppression of the truth of history. What, really, does the media fear? Punishment by the withdrawal of advertising revenue).’

“As it states in the Quran: ‘Oh you who believe, stand up firmly for justice, as witnesses to God, even if it be against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be against rich or poor; for God can best protect both. Do not follow any passion, lest you not be just. And if you distort or decline to do justice, verily God is well-acquainted with all that you do.’” (Quran 4:135)

“As it states in the Quran: ‘Oh you who believe, stand up firmly for justice, as witnesses to God, even if it be against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be against rich or poor; for God can best protect both. Do not follow any passion, lest you not be just. And if you distort or decline to do justice, verily God is well-acquainted with all that you do.’” (Quran 4:135)

I am a law-and-order conservative. I find this recent disclosure on WP,

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/09/AR2007100900791.html?hpid%3Dtopnews&sub=AR

quite disturbing. With clueless fools that are now at the helm in the GOP, such compromise of information is extremely sad and paints the "tough guy" (Uncle Sam) with a soft underbelly. This criticism assumes that the news in the link iks true, and not some propaganda.

What is the message to 9/11 terrorists ? Well, USA is clueless in defending itself and often engages in self-destructive acts.

Women Vote in Islam (1,500 years ago!)

When did the east or the west asked women for their vote?

No east no west, Islam is the best.

Quran 60:12

O Prophet! If believing women come unto thee, taking oath of allegiance unto thee that they will ascribe nothing as partner unto Allah, and will neither steal nor commit adultery nor kill their children, nor produce any lie that they have devised between their hands and feet, nor disobey thee in what is right, then accept their allegiance and ask Allah to forgive them. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

"What West need to Know About Islam"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fC7MX8eksHM

Islam has declared war on the West..

Muhammed in the bible - Ahmed Deedat
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Hhazm0UdlTc

Women status in Quran & Bibles - Truthful Comparison

http://youtube.com/watch?v=L37ntR-9MI0

Status of Women in Islam Part 1
http://youtube.com/watch?v=wn0jJJ4qFuE

Status of Women in Islam Part 2
http://youtube.com/watch?v=-LKgCvXCNHQ

Dear Humans,

Can you show me the word Judaism in the OT?
Can you show me the word Christianity in the OT/NT?

Why follow a religion whose name is absent from its own holly text?!

There is only one true religion: Islam.

Just follow the Holly Bible and it will show you the way.
Go back to the original text (bypassing the Evangelists!)

Here is my proof:

See Verse 16 in Ch 5 of Song of Songs at this location
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt3005.htm

Look at the Hebrew text. You will see the Name Mohammad (מַחֲמַדִּים) there! Just remove the "i" (י) and "m" (ם) used for making a noun plural.

Follow Mohammad (in Hebrew מַחֲמַד )

For more, http://www.jews-for-allah.org/Muhammad-and-Judaism/the-Jewish-Bible/Muhammad-in-Songs.htm

And now, we return to today's "Lovely Talmud" episode. Enjoy!

A Jewish man is obligated to say the following prayer every day: Thank you God for not making me a Gentile, a woman or a slave. Shabbath 86a-86b.

Besides the Talmud being a book promoting hate towards non-Jews, it also promotes violence and self torment on the Jews as well;

Erubin 21b. Whosoever disobeys the rabbis deserves death and will be punished by being boiled in hot excrement in hell.

Insults Against Mary the Jew, Sanhedrin 106a . Says Jesus' mother was a who*e: "She who was the descendant of princes and governors played the harlot with carpenters." Also in footnote #2 to Shabbath 104b it is stated that in the "uncensored" text of the Talmud it is written that Jesus mother, "Mary the hairdresser," had s*x with many men.

Thomas Carlyle in 'Heroes and Hero Worship and the Heroic in History,' 1840

"The lies (Western slander) which well-meaning zeal has heaped round this man (Muhammad) are disgraceful to ourselves only."

"A silent great soul, one of that who cannot but be earnest. He was to kindle the world, the world’s Maker had ordered so."

A. S. Tritton in 'Islam,' 1951

The picture of the Muslim soldier advancing with a sword in one hand and the Qur'an in the other is quite false.

---------------------------------
De Lacy O'Leary in 'Islam at the Crossroads,' London, 1923.

History makes it clear, however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myths that historians have ever repeated.

---------------------------------
Gibbon in 'The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' 1823

The good sense of Muhammad despised the pomp of royalty. The Apostle of God submitted to the menial offices of the family; he kindled the fire; swept the floor; milked the ewes; and mended with his own hands his shoes and garments. Disdaining the penance and merit of a hermit, he observed without effort of vanity the abstemious diet of an Arab.

-------------------------------------

Edward Gibbon and Simon Oakley in ‘History of the Saracen Empire,’ London, 1870

"The greatest success of Mohammad’s life was effected by sheer moral force."

“It is not the propagation but the permanency of his religion that deserves our wonder, the same pure and perfect impression which he engraved at Mecca and Medina is preserved after the revolutions of twelve centuries by the Indian, the African and the Turkish proselytes of the Koran....The Mahometans have uniformly withstood the temptation of reducing the object of their faith and devotion to a level with the senses and imagination of man. ‘I believe in One God and Mahomet the Apostle of God’ is the simple and invariable profession of Islam. The intellectual image of the Deity has never been degraded by any visible idol; the honors of the prophet have never transgressed the measure of human virtue, and his living precepts have restrained the gratitude of his disciples within the bounds of reason and religion.”

--------------------------------------------
Lane-Poole in 'Speeches and Table Talk of the Prophet Muhammad'

He was the most faithful protector of those he protected, the sweetest and most agreeable in conversation. Those who saw him were suddenly filled with reverence; those who came near him loved him; they who described him would say, "I have never seen his like either before or after." He was of great taciturnity, but when he spoke it was with emphasis and deliberation, and no one could forget what he said...

-------------------------------
Annie Besant in 'The Life and Teachings of Mohammad,' Madras, 1932.

It is impossible for anyone who studies the life and character of the great Prophet of Arabia, who knew how he taught and how he lived, to feel anything but reverence for that mighty Prophet, one of the great messengers of the Supreme. And although in what I put to you I shall say many things which may be familiar to many, yet I myself feel, whenever I reread them, a new way of admiration, a new sense of reverence for that mighty Arabian teacher.

-----------------------------------------
W.C. Taylor in 'The History of Muhammadanism and its Sects'

So great was his liberality to the poor that he often left his household unprovided, nor did he content himself with relieving their wants, he entered into conversation with them, and expressed a warm sympathy for their sufferings. He was a firm friend and a faithful ally.

http://www.jews-for-allah.org/Why-Believe-in-Allah/What-non-Muslims-sayabout-Muhammad.htm

Reverend Bosworth Smith in 'Muhammad and Muhammadanism,' London, 1874.

"Head of the State as well as the Church, he was Caesar and Pope in one; but he was Pope without the Pope's pretensions, and Caesar without the legions of Caesar, without a standing army, without a bodyguard, without a police force, without a fixed revenue. If ever a man ruled by a right divine, it was Muhammad, for he had all the powers without their supports. He cared not for the dressings of power. The simplicity of his private life was in keeping with his public life."

"In Mohammadanism every thing is different here. Instead of the shadowy and the mysterious, we have history....We know of the external history of Muhammad....while for his internal history after his mission had been proclaimed, we have a book absolutely unique in its origin, in its preservation....on the Substantial authority of which no one has ever been able to cast a serious doubt."

Edward Montet, 'La Propagande Chretienne et ses Adversaries Musulmans,' Paris 1890. (Also in T.W. Arnold in 'The Preaching of Islam,' London 1913.)

"Islam is a religion that is essentially rationalistic in the widest sense of this term considered etymologically and historically....the teachings of the Prophet, the Qur'an has invariably kept its place as the fundamental starting point, and the dogma of unity of God has always been proclaimed therein with a grandeur a majesty, an invariable purity and with a note of sure conviction, which it is hard to find surpassed outside the pale of Islam....A creed so precise, so stripped of all theological complexities and consequently so accessible to the ordinary understanding might be expected to possess and does indeed possess a marvelous power of winning its way into the consciences of men."

Dr. Gustav Weil in 'History of the Islamic Peoples'

Muhammad was a shining example to his people. His character was pure and stainless. His house, his dress, his food - they were characterized by a rare simplicity. So unpretentious was he that he would receive from his companions no special mark of reverence, nor would he accept any service from his slave which he could do for himself. He was accessible to all and at all times. He visited the sick and was full of sympathy for all. Unlimited was his benevolence and generosity as also was his anxious care for the welfare of the community.

Alphonse de LaMartaine in 'Historie de la Turquie,' Paris, 1854.

"Never has a man set for himself, voluntarily or involuntarily, a more sublime aim, since this aim was superhuman; to subvert superstitions which had been imposed between man and his Creator, to render God unto man and man unto God; to restore the rational and sacred idea of divinity amidst the chaos of the material and disfigured gods of idolatry, then existing. Never has a man undertaken a work so far beyond human power with so feeble means, for he (Muhammad) had in the conception as well as in the execution of such a great design, no other instrument than himself and no other aid except a handful of men living in a corner of the desert. Finally, never has a man accomplished such a huge and lasting revolution in the world, because in less than two centuries after its appearance, Islam, in faith and in arms, reigned over the whole of Arabia, and conquered, in God's name, Persia Khorasan, Transoxania, Western India, Syria, Egypt, Abyssinia, all the known continent of Northern Africa, numerous islands of the Mediterranean Sea, Spain, and part of Gaul.

"If greatness of purpose, smallness of means, and astonishing results are the three criteria of a human genius, who could dare compare any great man in history with Muhammad? The most famous men created arms, laws, and empires only. They founded, if anything at all, no more than material powers which often crumbled away before their eyes. This man moved not only armies, legislations, empires, peoples, dynasties, but millions of men in one-third of the then inhabited world; and more than that, he moved the altars, the gods, the religions, the ideas, the beliefs and the souls.

"On the basis of a Book, every letter which has become law, he created a spiritual nationality which blend together peoples of every tongue and race. He has left the indelible characteristic of this Muslim nationality the hatred of false gods and the passion for the One and Immaterial God. This avenging patriotism against the profanation of Heaven formed the virtue of the followers of Muhammad; the conquest of one-third the earth to the dogma was his miracle; or rather it was not the miracle of man but that of reason.

"The idea of the unity of God, proclaimed amidst the exhaustion of the fabulous theogonies, was in itself such a miracle that upon it's utterance from his lips it destroyed all the ancient temples of idols and set on fire one-third of the world. His life, his meditations, his heroic revelings against the superstitions of his country, and his boldness in defying the furies of idolatry, his firmness in enduring them for fifteen years in Mecca, his acceptance of the role of public scorn and almost of being a victim of his fellow countrymen: all these and finally, his flight his incessant preaching, his wars against odds, his faith in his success and his superhuman security in misfortune, his forbearance in victory, his ambition, which was entirely devoted to one idea and in no manner striving for an empire; his endless prayers, his mystic conversations with God, his death and his triumph after death; all these attest not to an imposture but to a firm conviction which gave him the power to restore a dogma. This dogma was twofold the unity of God and the immateriality of God: the former telling what God is, the latter telling what God is not; the one overthrowing false gods with the sword, the other starting an idea with words.

"Philosopher, Orator, Apostle, Legislator, Conqueror of Ideas, Restorer of Rational beliefs.... The founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one spiritual empire that is Muhammad. As regards all standards by which human greatness may be measured, we may well ask, is there any man greater than he?"

Mahatma Gandhi, statement published in 'Young India,'1924.

I wanted to know the best of the life of one who holds today an undisputed sway over the hearts of millions of mankind.... I became more than ever convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the Prophet the scrupulous regard for pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and followers, his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and in his own mission. These and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted every obstacle. When I closed the second volume (of the Prophet's biography), I was sorry there was not more for me to read of that great life.

Sir George Bernard Shaw in 'The Genuine Islam,' Vol. 1, No. 8, 1936.

"If any religion had the chance of ruling over England, nay Europe within the next hundred years, it could be Islam."

“I have always held the religion of Muhammad in high estimation because of its wonderful vitality. It is the only religion which appears to me to possess that assimilating capacity to the changing phase of existence which can make itself appeal to every age. I have studied him - the wonderful man and in my opinion for from being an anti-Christ, he must be called the Savior of Humanity."

"I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness: I have prophesied about the faith of Muhammad that it would be acceptable to the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of today.

Rick,

Its rawmeat alright. I have some news for you, again.

Please check out the two links from Times of India that comments about the Talibanization of some pockets in India.

The actual story is at the link:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/2437712.cms

The next interesting are the comments on this news by some Muslims and non-Muslims and one of them is a Muslim woman (like Victoria) and settled in USA. Read these comments at:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/opinions/2437712.cms#top0

Well, what do you think ? I am just making it up about "moderate Muslims" ?

P.S.: For some reason, my posts from yesterday don't show up on this blog. Maybe I am being censored.

I Am speechless!!!!

Jewish Racism towards Non-Jews as expressed in the Talmud

"The modern Jew is the product of the Talmud..."
"Babylonian Talmud", published by the Boston Talmud Society, p. XII

The Jews refer to the remainder of Earths inhabitants, the non-Jewish peoples, as "Gentiles", "Goyim". Let's see what the Jewish Talmud teaches the Jews concerning the non-Jewish majority, i.e. those who are not part of Jahve's "Chosen People":

O My GOD!!!

"The Jews are called human beings, but the non-Jews are not humans. They are beasts."

Talmud: Baba mezia, 114b

"The Akum (non-Jew) is like a dog. Yes, the scripture teaches to honor the the dog more than the non-Jew."

Ereget Raschi Erod. 22 30

"Even though God created the non-Jew they are still animals in human form. It is not becoming for a Jew to be served by an animal. Therfore he will be served by animals in human form."

Midrasch Talpioth, p. 255, Warsaw 1855

"A pregnant non-Jew is no better than a pregnant animal."

Coschen hamischpat 405

"The souls of non-Jews come from impure sprits and are called pigs."

Jalkut Rubeni gadol 12b

"Although the non-Jew has the same body structure as the Jew, they compare with the Jew like a monkey to a human."

Schene luchoth haberith, p. 250 b

"If you eat with a Gentile, it is the same as eating with a dog."

Tosapoth, Jebamoth 94b

"If a Jew has a non-Jewish servant or maid who dies, one should not express sympathy to the Jew. You should tell the Jew: "God will replace 'your loss', just as if one of his oxen or asses had died"."

Jore dea 377, 1

"Sexual intercourse between Gentiles is like intercourse between animals."

Talmud Sanhedrin 74b

"It is permitted to take the body and the life of a Gentile."

Sepher ikkarim III c 25

"It is the law to kill anyone who denies the Torah. The Christians belong to the denying ones of the Torah."

Coschen hamischpat 425 Hagah 425. 5

"A heretic Gentile you may kill outright with your own hands."

Talmud, Abodah Zara, 4b

"Every Jew, who spills the blood of the godless (non-Jews), is doing the same as making a sacrifice to God."

Talmud: Bammidber raba c 21 & Jalkut 772

Jewish children send 'love' messages
to Lebanese children
Pictures!!!

look at the real terrorists!

http://www.radioislam.org/jewish-photos/index.htm

Women. Judaism, and Islam

http://www.jews-for-allah.org/women-Judaism-and-Islam/

testing

Listen to this mp3

http://media.snunit.k12.il/kodeshm/mp3/t3005.mp3

recording of a Jewish recital
of their scripture. Seek to time 02:14

Recognize the Name MOHAMMAD?

For more, http://www.jews-for-allah.org/Muhammad-and-Judaism/

testing

Listen to this mp3

http://media.snunit.k12.il/kodeshm/mp3/t3005.mp3

recording of a Jewish recital
of their scripture. Seek to time 02:14

Recognize the Name MOHAMMAD?

For more, http://www.jews-for-allah.org/Muhammad-and-Judaism/

Here’s some raw meat for you Deb:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/07/AR2007100701031_pf.html

Deb,

There you again, still trying to tar all Muslims with the same broad brush used for the nut jobs. It just doesn’t fit the typical Muslim we see in our own country’s Muslim community. Don’t use this tired old hysterical and bigoted view to try to limit Muslim immigration to our country, or expel those who are already here.

Islam at its core (infrastructure), is actually very violent and intolerant. The exterior (superstructure) is probably shaped according to the culture of the place and times.

However, the bedrock is fundamentalist. Witness this: a Muslim (moderate/radical) is obligated to hold Muhammad as their ideal human being/leader. Well, that speaks volumes because Robert Spencer's biography of Muhammad, as Spencer claims is from the authentic Muslim sources (sunnah, hadith, Quran), which reputed Islamic scholars have not challenged since millenia, portrays an extremely violent and intolerant man. At times the biography reads like a religious zealot consumed by hatred for anything that is outside Islam. He is even reported to have said that he has been commanded by Allah to use violence till the whole world accepts Islam.

For this man, with such a level of fanaticism, to be the revered leader of 1.5 billion, is scary. But, that's what is happening. Relgious leaders in the Islamic community, and religious scholars (Grand Mufti) who can pass fatwas, have always upheld such actions of Muhammad as adorable.

In Jammu and Kashmir, India, the Chief Minister of the state (under Indian rule) has come under a fatwa. The poor fellow, on the Gandhi's celebration (Jayanti) made the mistake of suggesting that people should follow Gandhi's principles of "non-violence". The result was a backlash.

The entire report is available at the link:

http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/oct/06kash.htm

Islam cannot tolerate anything that would diminish its supoeriority. Its a doctrine of zealous bigotry.

Silly me, I forgot to give the link to the Lou WMS post at 2:01 PM. It’s on the Hitchens Subtle, Lethal Poison of Religion thread.
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/guestvoices/2007/09/hitchens_1/allcomments.html

Victoria, Deb,

Check out this thread, the Lou WMS post at 2:01 PM, 10/5/07.

really deb- back to name calling?

so much for inteigent discourse.
what was i thinking?

Victoria wrote:

"deb, what am i? an idiot?"

Well, if you say so then .... But, again you wrote as:

"your WHOLE POINT was that he painted the goddesses, and you implied no recoure was taken."

NO, THAT WAS NOT MY WHOLE POINT. You may think so, but that's a figment of your imagination. Don't make such false statements. Read (or read several times) to find out what explicitly I griped about in my last post. Maybe have someone else help you to do so.

You need help comprehending, Victoria.

Allah Hafiz,

wa'saalaam,

Deb

deb- you sure do get off topic-

the difference is obvious-

btw- were the pctures by this artist ugly? represhesible?
were they mocking or cruel derogatory?
in other words, was his intention to degrade hinduism or celebrate beauty?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
" He thus defiled the Hindu beliefs and denigrated the senitments of the majority population. Had Hindus painted Muhammad's private lives with his wives under the same artistic pretext, what would have happened ? Can you guess ?"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

well, what did happen deb?
HE WAS ARRESTED AND CHARGED WITH HURTING THE SENTIMENTS (not denigrating) of the indian hindus!

deb, what am i? an idiot?

this is the internet!

your WHOLE POINT was that he painted the goddesses, and you implied no recoure was taken.

well there was a reaction- a legal one.

his art is beautiful deb- it really is.
if your countrymen didnt see fit to convict him, why do you?

if someone starts out in art to depict the ugliness in soemthing,(like goya and the spanish war for instance), well- is someone gong to tell me that war is inherently beautiful?

that ugliness come through th artwork.
in goya's case- it was apparent and also a social statement which people responded to on an elemental level.

he also did the same thing with poverty. poverty is also an ugly human condition.

now lets take the goddesses.
godesses by their very nature represent beauty and all that is fine in humanity (especially women)

i also noticed he did 67 paintings on one cine actress- that indicates an obsessive path to perfect what he considered beauty.
(in an artist thats a wonderful thing)

all of his other paintings show his drive to depict what is beautiful- notice his soft buddhas in gentle colors-
look at the wild unrestrained passion in his horse
this is nto a guy who is trying to make a social statement on hinduism, but is trying to elevate the beauty and elegance of women.
look at the joyful carefree group of women in an intricate dance

all fine and lovely deb

i couldnt find the paintings of the godesses
are they ugly? or beautiful?

now if some artist somewhere wants to depict some prurient or salacious painting of (even the Prophetpbuh) and their intent is to ridicule and deride-
that ugliness will become apparent in their "art" too.

and the art willnot copel anyone to anything other than ugliness of spirit.

personally- i dont cosider such people artists but sociopaths desparate for attention

for instance, i dont want to feel your pain, your mania, your hatred.

go get therapy, and when you have something elevating or fine to express- THEN pick up your media of expression.

til then keep it inside of you where it belongs
because images and art ARE SO VERY compelling

the artist has a responsibilty to the audience

what youre suggesting sounds like what i call art therapy

spomeone has issues with islam/ go make some ugly art, and those with ugly hearts may celebrate its ugliness for a minute

in 50 years someone will find it and gesso over it or discard it

so what a senaky misrepresentation you make deb-
surely you must have known that the artist WAS charged.
so your contention falls apart

go make some ugly hearted art if you want
actually it is the hallmark of the mediocre artist (like rushdie) to latch onto an emotional issue and exploit it to promote what would likely otherwise be an unremarkable career

i think he had one good book in him midnights children, and has proven in history that he is a mediocre storyteller so lets put him on the shelf with the harlequin romances (maybe thats harsh)

im not going to encourage you to make some ugly art deb, theres already enough of that out there
go look at the manhattan galleries one day

amd how you got to immigration is something only you know

but im not getting deported
im not going anyhwere unless i choose
not because you choose

well, at least you had sense enough to recognize that your contention was wrong and i am indeed right

but if you want to find thoses offensive paintings id be interested in seeing them
but i have access to the internet too so i might just do that

Victoria,

You are so full of fanaticism, that despite your apparent charm (?) - with which you might have shrouded other readers (except me) on this forum -doesn't work.

Your dogged/compulsive negationism and strident refusal to reason just validates my hardlined position against Muslims. Let me clarify.

Your whole argument is that Hussain can draw the nude pictures of goddesses because the Khajurao temples contain such fugurines. That is factually correct.

However it is a matter of equity, which I had emphasized in my post. If Hussain (as a Muslim)can draw pictures of nude Hindu goddesses, why can't I draw equally provocative pictures of Muhammad and his private lives with his 13 wives under the guise of artistic freedoms. I am NOT at all offended by anyone drawing nude pictures of the Hindu goddesses. You have correctly observed that nude pictures/images of Hindu goddeses existed 1000 years ago on the exterior of the Khajurao temples. I AM offended, however, because Hussain (a Muslim) has the right to do so, but apparently I (as a Hindu) don't, or if I do then I would be held guilty (under existing laws) of inciting communal hatred and mayhem, bedlam by Muslims in retaliation would follow. (Just as it happened in the Danish cartoon incidents.)

Anyway, without waiting for your babble and garbage arguments, that reek with religious and cultural superiority of Islam over other religions and cultures, I submit that America and Europe must eventually prepare to repatriate all Muslims out of their countries.

Muslim immigration to USA must be stopped. Islam is a vicious, barbaric religion and most Muslims like yourself only support the discrimination that Islam postulates.

The 2008 election year agenda should also focus on these fundamental issues regarding Islamic and American values, and their political impacts.

Unless the role of Islam in the US society is constitutionally de-emphasized, the very existence of USA shall become a major problem in the near future.

deb- again disconnect reasoning and no relevant answer to the many many points

especially nonsensical is your example of the artist hwo depiccts goddesses nude when the erotic statues of kajuraho temples have 100s of depictions of 'erotic' staues in groups in many many active sex positions

someone already beat him to it deb
1000s of years ago

Kajuraho Temples in India

Khajuraho Temples are the gift of love, India has bestowed on the world. Intricately carved with detailed sculptures, the Temples of Khajuraho displays some very unique form of art and architecture, very rare in others parts of the world. The speechless sculptures of Khajuraho speak volumes of the ancient India civilisation.

Khajuraho showcases the art of conjugation, which HAS LONG BEEN UNDERSTOOD in India. The sculptures represent the different positions of creation and are splendid way to let you learn some basics of human evolution.

The temples are unusual in the sense that the subject matter here is sex, rather than just idol worship, thus it reflects that the necessity and importance of this basic instinct has been well-paid in the Indian context.

Architecture :
The wall sculptured images, most of them are of couples engaged in love, or to better say, in compromising positions. But the architectural value is never compromising, it's one of the best in terms of expression of theme and structural competencies. There are 20 temples remaining, and they are divided into three major groups of mainly two sects, Hinduism and Buddhism. The Kendriya Mahadeva temple represents the best sculptures and is the leader among the gamut.

http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images?p=EROTIC+SCULPTURES+OF+INDIA&sp=1&fr2=sp-top&fr=yfp-t-501&ei=UTF-8&_bcrumb=81d80e911aa220e0b8ec06da30cca962%2C1191407052&save=0&ei=UTF-8&SpellState=n-3370543756_q-bo.LT.mB7aoZj3Bp9DMBHwAAAA@@

I HAD TO TURN OFF THE SAFE FILTER TO ACCESS THIS DEB

100s and 100s of sculptures of gods and godesses engaged in group sex acts deb

are you kidding me?
do you even have ANY point?

no one is putting down hindism dab

krishna led hundreds of married women out into the forst just to have sex with them
ARE YOU TELLING ME THIS IS AN UNUSUAL OR BLASHPEMOUS ART?

get real i was talking about criminal depictions

Well Victoria,

Do you know that Voltaire (Francois Marie Arouet, 1694-1178) of France wrote a very damning 5-act play titled:

MAHOMET THE PROPHET, OR FANATICISM A TRAGEGY IN FIVE ACTS (translated with an introduction by Robert L. Myers), NY, F. Ungar Pub. & Co., 1964.

I have had the (mis)fortune to read that play after I had read Rushdie's Satanic Verses. In my view Voltaire's depiction of Mahomet (and partly false) was intended to show how fanatical Islam and Muhammad was. The very play is not only heretical but presumptious and starts and ends with derogatory remarks. Muhammad, at the end of the play is shown loudly admitting that he was a fanatical impostor. Surely this is most offensive to all believing Muslims. Am I right ?

Given this information, what should the Muslim world do to uphold the sanctity/pride/authenticity of Islam ? Kill all those who read and act Voltaire's play(s) ?

You have made the following remarks, that are intellectually shallow in my view. So, let's see:

"im willing to bet the farm that if some muslim worte a book or made a movie depicting Jesus(ata) or Krishna as a thieving (and i dont mean butter)
wife prostituting pimp a few christians or hindus would take some offense at this."

The famous (Indian) artist/painter, Maqbool Fida Hussain painted in nude sacred Hindu goddesses whom Hindus pray regularly in temples/homes. He claimed that he did it under the pretext of artistic freedoms. He thus defiled the Hindu beliefs (never mind that Hindus are pagans and according to Quran(047:004) need to be killed), and denigrated the senitments of the majority population. Had Hindus painted Muhammad's private lives with his wives under the same artistic pretext, what would have happened ? Can you guess ? Well, you for one (with other co-religionists) would most likely cry hoarse till the moon turned into cream cheese. Communal riots, extreme violence and massive bloodletting would have been entered as the important incidents of contemporary history of India had a Hindu artist taken shelter under the "artistic freedom" pretext.

The problem is that when Muslims riot and cause mayhem over "defiling Islam" (symptomatuc of the victimhood concept), the so-called moderate Muslims justify such violent, barbaric and tribal behavior under the guise of protecting "religious rights". Many Muslim scholars, and including Victoria's favorite Dr. Zakir Naik (from Mumbai, India) justify such violence because "Muslim sentiments have been hurt by pagans/infidels". Conversely, when Muslims engage in similar incidents, they often get away as a slap on the wrist because they belong to the "minority community". Statistical records can be dug up to prove exactly this point.

In USA, of course, still the 1st Amendment is effective. People have died for upholding the Constituitional rights. That's why whether it was the Satanic Verses, Last Temptation of Christ or the DaVinci Code, no one died under the hands of religious fanaticism. Of course this will certainly change if the Muslim population in USA grows in number over time. (Its already begining to happen in Dearborn, Michigan. The writing is on the wall.)

Quite frankly this inequity in treatment is the main concern that gullible Americans cannot see very clearly. Mired in the maze of "human rights", "Israel-Palestine", "Iraq" etc. and etc., they ignorantly surrender their efforts to upholding the rights of Muslims and Islam, when fair treatment should have been equally distributed to all faiths and their respcetive adherents.

Islam's 7th century tribalism is the ugly behemoth that is the problem. It's the barbaric doctrine that holds all religions and adherents as inferior and free for canon fodder.

you could be right hermit, but midnights children was his first, and hes been on a downward slope-
i remeber on the back cover it said he was born on the same day as pakistan and i was pretty young and thought that was awfully cosmic.
(i was heavy into astrology for a looong time)

possibly my memory has edited my impression post reading, eh?

it could be. but im not going to read it again
i dont read novels anymore- well maybe ray bradbury
i read the halloween tree every year this time for about 35 years
unecessary information i know
im in a mood today
peace always reasoanble hermit

and oooowheee i have french blood so i can say it-
those french are a bit wacky sometimes

Dear Humans,

Can you show me the word Judaism in the OT?
Can you show me the word Christianity in the OT/NT?

Why follow a religion whose name is absent from its own holly text?!

There is only one true religion: Islam.

Just follow the Holly Bible and it will show you the way.
Go back to the original text (bypassing the Evangelists!)

Here is my proof:

See Verse 16 in Ch 5 of Song of Songs at this location
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt3005.htm

Look at the Hebrew text. You will see the Name Mohammad (מַחֲמַדִּים) there! Just remove the "i" (י) and "m" (ם) used for making a noun plural.

follow מַחֲמַד !!!

Dear Humans,

Can you show me the word Judaism in the OT?
Can you show me the word Christianity in the OT/NT?

Why follow a religion whose name is absent from its own holly text?!

There is only one true religion: Islam.

Just follow the Holly Bible and it will show you the way.
Go back to the original text (bypassing the Evangelists!)

Here is my proof:

See Verse 16 in Ch 5 of Song of Songs at this location
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt3005.htm

Look at the Hebrew text. You will see the Name Mohammad (מַחֲמַדִּים) there! Just remove the "i" (י) and "m" (ם) used for making a noun plural.

follow מַחֲמַד !!!

And I have to disagree with Victoria on one point; I thought the Satanic Verses was a great book, and the depiction of the prophet was not really as one-dimensional as you make it out to be and in the process he makes some excellent points about the way in which religion can be abused.

Midnight's Children was a much better book, though; probably Rushdie's best.

Regards

A Hermit

Deb asks: "how many people were killed in USA when the Martin Scorcese movie THE LAST TEMPTATION OF CHRIST was screened"

I don't know about the states, but Christian mobs attacked one movie theaters all over France, even burning one down while the movie was being shown. It was just by luck that no one was killed...

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DE6DD173BF936A15753C1A96E948260

Deb asks: "how many people were killed in USA when the Martin Scorcese movie THE LAST TEMPTATION OF CHRIST was screened"

I don't know about the states, but Christian mobs attacked one movie theaters all over France, even burning one down while the movie was being shown. It was just by luck that no one was killed...

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DE6DD173BF936A15753C1A96E948260

just a quick disclaimer- that was not intended in any way to condone the violence taken by the hyper misfits who perpertraed it- just an exercise in understanding

i have to comment on the difference between an intellectual verbal assault and the potency of an image.
(the cartoons were images- rushdie, well he never got the reaction the cartoons have)
its why we dont EVER see any images of flag draped coffins coming back from iraq-
it wasnt so much the image i suspect, but the intent behind it- to degrade and humiliate muslims and let them know there is no level to low in the western worlds ability to disrespect- actually completely ignore what is held sacred to them.

how do you think an image of a bearded jihadi relieving himself at ground zero would play out?
(this is conjecture you understand)
do you imagine that america would passively respond? or do you think some bombs would happen to fall on some muslims somewhere?

id say that since the response was muslims hurting themselves- it is more a demonstration of their feelings of impotency and powerlessness-

irrational? of course it is but inflamed passions are like that

when you take something that any person holds sacred and corrupt it deliberately to incite violence- (the editor was aware and anticipatory of the muslim reaction, as muslims petitioned him not to run the cartoons)and when you take a population of angry people without the means to effect their own self determination- (besides violence) its pretty crazy to poke at a lion and notexpect him to bite.

this was never an incidence of freedom of expression- it was a contrived and purposeful action to provoke reaction-

i remember watching (and taping) the entire funeral and mourning process of arafat-

there was an image of the palestinians in mourning and crazily shooting rifles into the air- (as i recall there was even a death or tow associated with that event, and several injuries)

ill be darned if i haven;t seen that exact clip replayed several times in unrelated stories.

images have a potency that transcends words.
that can manipulate emotions
as an artist i am painfully aware of this
(painfully because of the extraordinary responsibilty that accompanies the creation of images and their impact on my fellow humans)

o thanks for the compliment- i read a book a day for so many years that ive lost count- not anymore- but i wasted alot fo my youth and tender years in books- my mom says i could read at 3, and i read at a college level in second grade- so ive along career- that and 3 dollars will get me a cup of capuccino.

as for my logic- it comes and goes as im sure youve noticed

so what this has to do with the occupation and invasion of muslims in the ME- well, the combination of havng wealth and land and power stolen from them- and the west continually giving muslims the middle finger- while at the same time funding and promoting in every way the causes of their oppressors-
i think deb illustrates well how tribal prejudices can be turned to the advantages of the powers that be-

muslim bashing is downright patriotic-
the only other sanctioned prejudice i can recall is the japanese internment in WWII

what do YOU think of the US invasion of iraq deb?
we got rid of sadaam- the govenrment has been in place in iraq for 2 years now,
do you think it's time we left?
or should we go kill some more muslims in iran?

but remember, iran isn't the disorganized and ill kept ba'athist of iraq.
persians will fight back

i just saw on washington journal that a university in iran has invited dubya to a debate.
think he'll go? snicker

Victoria,

You never cease to amaze! Where do you find time to read so much? And your logic is infallible.

Deb,

You make some good points. It is hard to defend the irrational (to our mind) physical reaction of some Muslims to verbal intellectual assaults by the west on Islam.

But what has this to do with the more important events of the era, like our invasion and occupation of the Holy Muslim lands of Palestine and Iraq. This is the root cause of serious assaults by Muslims on America, like 9/11, which is after all the topic of this thread.

deb, i hope i wasnt insulting to you- it is all in the hope of good and intelligent conversation

im not implying that you dont or cant read

one of my favoritest cartoons in the world is THE TICK. i love the tick. theres a character villain who has a hand puppet that thinks for him (unimaginatively named 'handy')

the puppet is always making obscure literary references to the blank uncomprehending stares of those around him- and then has to specify the reference, explain the connection, and always yells frustratedly "READ A BOOK!!!!"

so, hey, READ A BOOK!

i think a more apt question would be, how many people were killed n the USA period from EITHER the danish cartoon incident, or rushdie incident.

answer- zero

why you included taslima nasreen in this discussion is a mystery to me- she was attacked by both a hindu and muslim group. what exactly does that prove?

i only read the link, but it said it wasnt her depiction of islam- but her condemnation of the actions of religious people in india in particular that she was opposed to- the brutal slaughter of 3000 muslims by hindus in gujurat specifically mentioned. and she was equally condemnng hindu radicals as well as muslim, which is why both hindus and muslims attacked her.

this would seem to be more of an indictment over the polarized views of religious indians, and their viloence AGAINST EACH OTHER- than any indictment of islam per se.

how can you possibly compare the last temptation of christ with the satanic verses?

have you read either?

kazanzatkis (who also wrote francis, and the rock) is an extraordinarily gifted and sensitive writer- the worst blashphemy committed by Jesus(ata) in the last temptation was that he married and had children. hardly a scathing critique of his ministry. not to mention he redeems himslef (and all of humanity by the way) in the end by waking up from his dream and dying on the cross.

the story is really no different than the conjecture of holy blood holy grail,which contends that Jesus(ata) had children with mary magdalene and her descendants became th royal family of britain, which in turn the story was stolen by ron brown and made in to the da vinci code- (they are suing him by the way) and there was nary a peep about that because, wel, to the christian theology it is just not that offensive.

there were nationwide protests about the last temptation of christ, but then people saw the movie and realized it wasnt really that blasphemous- actually i thought at the time that hollywood might have engineered the whole protest thing because it certainly got alot of free press and warm bodies in the theatres.

rushdie on the other hand, depicted the Prophet(pbuh) as an amoral greed driven pimp who prostituted his own wives off.
you have to admit thats a bit more offensive than getting married and having children.

i was a christian when i read it, and didnt really know much at all about Muhammad(pbuh) but i remeber thinking that it was a tacky thing to do.
ive read 4 of his books and looking back, i realize it was a cheap trick (that worked) to get hm notoriety- his writngs are just not that interesting. i had to force myself to read the last one (some glam fluff about a hindu woman whose a rock star and how she destroys herself and those around her-ugghh)

sensationalist claptrap is sensationalist claptrap. noone will be reading him when hes gone.

and the editor of jylland poste has already admitted quite unapologetically that he knew exactly what the reaction would be to his cartoons 6 months before he printed them.

as with rushdie- the intent was deliberately to incite passions and inflame relgious fervor- and it was designed to attack muslims at their achilles heel- there are no depictions of Muhammad(pbuh) in history- it is FORBIDDEN- and the editor was well aware of this, and tryin gto incite muslims in denmark to some action that wolud further alineate them and delineate their 'otherness' to the danish people, who although they claim extraordinary leniency and tolerance- they are having a very very hard time putting this into action when it comes to brown muslims in their country.

i mean, look at ayaan hirsi ali at the parliament- do you notice any other brown face?
no-

so, to compare last temptaton- whose worse depiction was of marriage and children-
with the salacious treatment of the criminal Muhammad(pbuh) is apples and oranges.

im willing to bet the farm that if some muslim worte a book or made a movie depicting Jesus(ata) or Krishna as a thieving (and i dont mean butter)
wife prostituting pimp a few christians or hindus would take some offense at this.

Gentle Rick,

You wrote, "The important thing is to not allow these unfortunate incidents to dominate our opinion of an entire religious faith. I don’t feel that a country as powerful as ours need feel threatened by these ignorant few. The vast majority of the 1.5 billion muslims would not condone this behavior."

I am not in agreement. Well, if the vast majority of Muslims (1.5 billion) did NOT condone this behavior towards Tasleema Nasreen, then how many *INTENSE* protests have we seen from these majority of moderate Muslims against these actions of their more radical co-religionists ? If Islam is a "peaceful" religion, then isn't the action of these radicals defiling Islam, and hence would be unacceptable to the vast majority of true Muslims who are suppossedly moderates ?Conversely, how much of *INTENSE* protests have we seen from the Muslims in response to the Danish cartoons ? In both cases there is a similarity: Islam was perceived being under attack. If a religion is so damn fragile such that its moral existence can be in question from some views of a few (like Nasreen, Rushdie or the cartoons), then I don't believe that such a faith has any solid foundation.

And gentle Rick, you are by projecting your most liberal views on this matter simply playing into the hands of such phonies.

I have a last question: how many people were killed in USA when the Martin Scorcese movie THE LAST TEMPTATION OF CHRIST was screened, vis-a-vis the Danish cartoons/Salman Rushdie scenarios ? Got any clues ?

- yours,

gentile deb

‘It is amazing to us how seriously some people (especially the uneducated) take their religion, and how violent they can get when it is offended.’

That doesn’t sound good does it? I hereby retract that statement right now, before anyone notices. It must have been a Freudian slip. I certainly don’t want to say that only uneducated people take their religion seriously.

Deb,

You make some good points. I too object to people being physically attacked and threatened with death for verbally attacking religion. The case of Salman Rushdie also comes to mind.

‘Taslima Nasreen was attacked at the Hyderabad Press Club, where she was launching the Telegu translation of her book Shodh ("Getting Even")’ http://iheu.org/node/2790.

‘Shockingly, the attackers themselves were elected representatives of the Andhra Pradesh Legislative Assembly and members of the fundamentalist Muslim party Majlis Ijttehaadul Muslimeen, accompanied by a few dozen followers. The leaders were arrested and will appear before a magistrate. Their rowdy followers held up traffic on a long stretch of road in Hyderbad, protesting her arrival in the city; they demanded that she be deported for having offended their religion, and they wanted their leaders released. Many of them say that they will kill her if they have the opportunity.’

It is amazing to us how seriously some people (especially the uneducated) take their religion, and how violent they can get when it is offended. At least the leaders were arrested and will appear in court, so their actions are clearly not condoned by the authorities.

‘The journalists' union has demanded that the three elected representatives be suspended from membership of the Legislature. There has been country-wide support from all quarters for Taslima, and in defence of free speech, including the Chief Minister of Andhra Pradesh and the Union Ministry in Delhi. There was universal condemnation for what happened, including from the Communist Party of India (Marxist), the Telugu Desam Party and many NGOs. The Home Minister Jana Reddy condemned the attack in strong terms, promised stringent action against those who became violent, and claimed that this could have been avoided had the police been given prior information about her arrival in the city.’

‘Taslima Nasreen is a humanist, a rationalist, an atheist. A humanist is the well-wisher of all humans in the world. A humanist reacts to the human sufferings anywhere in the world. When Hindus are butchered by Muslim culprits in Bangladesh she condemned them. Similarly when Muslims are butchered in Gujarat (India) by Hindu culprits she condemned the Hindu culprits. She deeply studied the reasons for human suffering and writing for the human welfare in the world. The religious fundamentalists have misunderstood her. She is not against any religion. She is against those exploiters who are causing human suffering.’

But I’m sure that the same sort of ignorant behavior happens in our own country. I recall a young homosexual man being brutally murdered not long ago out west, and some blacks being drug to death behind a pick-up truck in Texas http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/b/james_jr_byrd/index.html?offset=20. These are just a couple of incidents; I’m sure that they are quite frequent in any society.

The important thing is to not allow these unfortunate incidents to dominate our opinion of an entire religious faith. I don’t feel that a country as powerful as ours need feel threatened by these ignorant few. The vast majority of the 1.5 billion muslims would not condone this behavior.

We should be more concerned about the horrendous attacks being carried out by our elected representatives in Palestine and Iraq.

beware of parenthetical insertions rick- they are the edits of the translators-

islam means literally peace and submission to the god- so its a pretty benign insertion,

deb, as compeltely knowledgeable and valid that lines from criitcs on amazon are,
you really have no idea what you are talking about.

also moderate muslim is not really a term that i like at all- it s a term imposed on muslims by others.
it implies and even by that implication validates fundamentalist extreme islam- which most muslims, like myself are somehow anomalies or exceptions rather than the normal representatives of islam.

deb- your continued desire to somehow prove that islam is inherently evil, and all muslims have some secret zealot inside waiting for the right time to emerge- and if they dont they are too weak to be considered muslims is-
well wishful thinking on your part.
i know you want to validate your own unreasonable prejudice, and the only way to do that is to dismiss any muslims who dont fit into your own bizarre fundamentality-

it is really a good thing you are not a muslim deb, because you would be a most dangerous corruption of islam.

you seem continually surprised at my lack of venom or verbal violence, and you have been overtly dogging and attacking me since november of last year-

i am a muslim deb, i dont believe all muslims go to paradise, i dont believe all non muslims go to hell-

i simply do not know, as you do not know.

ricks questons are very good, and it only helps me to define specfically what i know in my heart, or surmise from my own poor comprehension.

but i really do appreciate the civil way you're discussing with me now deb.
i really do.

Victoria,

Your characterization of my (Deb) view of Ijtihad is CORRECT. Yes, that's my view after what I have read.

You have proposed a second view, which in my view is simply wishful thinking, and here is why.

I know about Ibn Sina and other respceted Muslim scholars without whom our western scientific developments would have become a mere cipher.

But, you know what history is on my side. I cannot go into deep details, but for the benefit of you and other readers I would like to point you out to a well-researched book:

Toby E. Huff, THE RISE OF EARLY MODERN SCIENCE: ISLAM, CHINA AND THE WEST. (see amazon website for purchase details).

In that book, it is shown in great details and backed by references that (page 158):

"It was even essential to Islam, ..., because the 'method was part and parcel of the Islamic orthodox process for determining orthodoxy. Where it failed was in the creation of a set of objective standards of law, against which all other laws and principles could be judged. Since the legal principles of Islamic law had been given once and for all, in the Quran and the sunna, and in the principles of fiqh worked out by al-Shafi'i, the only task left was to use logic in the narrow sense, to uncover faulty reasoning and thus preserve the doctrinal status quo...."

(The above is a quote from a review on the amazon site.)

This debacle happened because the second version of Ijtihad (which you have cited) failed to gain any foothold in the Islamic ummah. The reason it NEVER gained any foothold, as argued persuasively by Huff, is that once reason is "let loose and is free" it starts to question everything and at a certain point in time such questioning would naturally contradict the basic tenets of the Quran. You cannot question the divinity and the authenticity of the Quran - as a Muslim. Doctrinal status quo needs to be upheld. That's the upper limit. Hence the second form of the Ijtihad, although pursued by many, has failed and shall continue to fail simply because of the fundamentalism inherent in the Quran (a Divine revelation). Quran forbids going against Allah's message and his rasool (prophet) Muhammad. The very consequences are mentioned in Quran (005:033).

Victoria wrote:

"do muslims escape the wheel of birth and rebirth deb?
christians, jews? bahai? buddhists?(possibly)
native americans? pagans? sikhs? zoraorastrians?
taoists? shintoists? confucionists?"

Who cares about these things Victoria ? Why should one attain salvation is of any bother to me ? Same goes the other way.

We are concerned about the implementation of Quran (004:095),(009:029),(047:004) in particular.
What happens with my personal spirituality is none of Islam's business. Similarly, what happens with yours is no concern of mone either. Live and let live.

And again, you wrote:

"deb- i will state unapologetically that- while you may conject that moody and i are rogue muslims without any bearing to 'real' (read violent and barbaric) in your estimation muslims-

you are UNQUESTIONABLY ill suited to make any observations and particularly judgements whatsoever about islam"

Thank you for reflecting your religion's hostile attitude towards critics. Like what happened with Tasleema Nasreen who was recently hounded in Hyderabad, India, by your fellow co-religionists (Muslims) and one of the members of the Indian Parliament, Akbar-ud-din Owaisi had placed a bounty for anyone who would kill Tasleema because of her hostile depiction of Islam. You know this Akbar Owaisi and you read the same Quran. So, why he can cite the Quran and make the threats, and you think that is not permitted in the Quran ? See anything, no ? Too tired to think ?

This is quite amusing, because most Muslims claim that they are moderate or that Islam is a peaceful religion when the actions show exactly opposite, even in places like India which has about 18% of the Muslim population. In India, all anti-Islamic books are officially banned. And, the Osama tapes/CDs are making their rounds in mosques. See the contradiction, Victoria ? Anti-Islam views are banned, but jihadi tapes are well flourishing because the mullahs are using them under the pretext of religion. Your favorite mullah, Dr. Zakir Naik, is a supporter of Osama bin Laden because he wants to create a model Islamic State in the world through the Shariah laws. Dr. Zakir Naik is all for it. SIMI (Student Islamic Movement of India) who are involved in bomb blasts, want to convert India to an Islamic State and bring in back the glory of the barbaric Mughal rule. Thanks to the "peaceful coexistence" that Islam preaches. Why are you engaging in false jabber, Victoria ?

Gentle Rick:

Your fondness for Hermit or Victoria stems from the fact that you are really a liberal at heart. You tend to give everybody a good benefit of doubt. It is like those most pacifist Buddhist/Jainist monks who would rather get killed by their perpetrators than having to bear any grudge/hatred against them. This is what Hermit's condemnation of "overreaction" boils down to. And, unfortunately, you are falling for the same hook-line-sinker.

To quip, as I have asserted, read the books that are both favorable (like Karen Armstrong, Khalid Abou El Fadl)and unfavorable (like Robert Spencer, Ibn Warraq) about Islam and then judge what makes sense. If you are serious, then aside the authors I have named, you should read the works of Maulana Abul Ala Maudoodi, Sayyid Qutb and chcek it out what the "fundemantalist" ideology means and why it is winning not only for the past 20 years but indeed was the norm for close to 1100 years after Islam was first revealed to Muhammad.

Only when you know both sides can you see the complete picture. I have read both types and hence I have the moral courage to argue.

Actually to be honest, I have read Quran and its tafseer and the hadith and sunnah - as available from the writings of respected Muslim scholars. I have concluded that Islam is a violent and intolerant religion with extreme hate towards the unbelievers outside the fold of Islam.

- yours,

gentile deb

Deb Chatterjee;

So your answer to my question is to call me names and wave a bloody shirt?

A sure sign that I've won the argument...thank you.

Regards

A Hermit

Victoria & Gentile Deb,

Thank you for the interesting posts.

Victoria,

Your post is very detailed and informative. Thanks for your time. I know that you are very busy during this month of the Ramadan. You are quite the scholar and just a great person.

You are right. I forgot the important detail presented in Verse 003.084:

YUSUFALI: ‘Say: "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)."’

So all Jews, Christians, Muslims and others who believe in the one true God will be received into paradise is my interpretation of that.

However, there is the other small detail of Verse 003.085:

YUSUFALI: ‘If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).’

This could be interpreted to mean that followers of religions other than Islam are excluded form paradise. This is probably how critics like Gentile Deb would interpret it. Or it could be interpreted that the parenthetical (submission to Allah) includes believers of all faiths who believe in the one true God. This is how you and I would interpret it.

So you see this is what happens when the ‘Holy’ Book could be construed to contradict itself in the same chapter and confuse the loyal faithful who want to use this text as the guide to live by.

Of course the Judeo-Christian OT/NT is no better. If we took this text verbatim, we would learn that we are commanded to kill: all children who curse there parents, all people who work on the Sabbath (I wonder how many billions of people this would dispose of), all people who curse God, all who steal their neighbor’s slave, all homosexuals, all wh*res, etc, etc, etc.

So those moderate interpreters like you and Moody would say that all but the 17% who are devout secularists, Atheists or Agnostics (like me) have a good chance of making it to Paradise. The more radical Muslim interpreters would say that only the 21% who are devout Muslims will arrive at paradise, and the evangelical Christians would say that only the 33% who are devout Christians will make it to heaven.

Of course I have only completed reading three of the Qur’an’s 114 chapters. We will see what the remainder have in store for us.

I think that 99.94% of us (worldwide) are moderates, who just want to get up in the morning, go to work or school, have three square meals a day, live in comfort with our loved ones, etc.

But it is the 0.06% who are nut jobs that we must watch out for, especially those pulling the strings of national power, like our Dear Leader and World Class Hypocrite in the White House.

So the bottom line is (sorry Gentile Deb), I must agree with the Hermit. We must continue to go about our daily lives refusing to live in fear of the nut jobs; otherwise they have won. And we must be more vigilant to keep the nut jobs away from the strings of power.

Gentle Rick

rick- your figures leave about 83% with a good chance of going to paradise-
the people who go to hell are those who set up gods beside god.
for me personally, it was art- but it could be anything.
that's assuming all 87% worship god

also there is in islam the idea that no one can asnwer and that is this-

there are many people who will psend a time in hell- but eventually come to paradise.

no one can say if anyone stays there forever-

as every nation has had a messenger or prophet sent to it- we have no way of knowing who has what in their heart-

as for the 17% mentioned-

they will be remebered by ALLAH with the same attention with which they remembered him.

stay away from the haters like ibn warraq-
read some rumi or hanafi maybe

i like fethullah gulen or said nursi
but i have some sufi leanings although i8 am an observant muslim which means i pray 5 times a day (although i am ashamed to admit i miss sometimes)
i try to make it up- but it happens sometimes

(i hate to state absolutes)

now, certainly your question requires a great deal more thought and consideration this is off the top of my head

as for the christian scripture qupted, there are many instances where the word 'hell' was inserted when it actually said gehenna (which was the burning trash heap outside of jerusalem and an analogy that would have made contemporaneous sense to the people Jesus(ata) was speaking to.)

king james (my own personal most disliked version) inserted the word hell- some scholars contend unnecessarily- so one could argue that the flavor and shades of meaning were changed form that- or just state it right out.
(as i am)

deb- i will state unapologetically that- while you may conject that moody and i are rogue muslims without any bearing to 'real' (read violent and barbaric) in your estimation muslims-

you are UNQUESTIONABLY ill suited to make any observations and particularly judgements whatsoever about islam.

do muslims escape the wheel of birth and rebirth deb?
christians, jews? bahai? buddhists?(possibly)
native americans? pagans? sikhs? zoraorastrians?
taoists? shintoists? confucionists?

how about rastafarians, or some little known tribal religions?

did Jesus(ata) escape the wheel of life?


for the record rick- tasfeer is commentary- and as such are the opinons of men(and some very excellent ones)

islam has so far, every 100 years had great reformers- it is actually a phenomena that leads some to be looking for the new reformer-

ignore debs comments on reform- he simply doesnt seem to have looked into it- or sometimes claims what he imaignines rather than knows-

IJTIHAD
The Islamic tradition has two conceptions of ijtihad. One is a very narrow, legalistic notion of it as a process of juristic reasoning employed to determine the permissibility of an action when primary sources, namely the Koran and Sunnah (Tradition of the Prophet), are silent and earlier scholars of shari'a (Islamic law) had not ruled on the matter. For those who hold this view of ijtihad, who can perform ijtihad is often more important than the need for ijtihad.

In reality, this view is designed to stifle independent thought among Muslims and to confine the right to understand and explain Islam to Muslim jurists. It is also opposed to reasoning, because it essentially says that reason shall be employed only when the texts are silent and no medieval scholar has addressed the issue under scrutiny. Reason, according to this viewpoint, is the last resort for understanding the will of God. For those who hold this view, opening the doors of ijtihad would make no difference, since their very conception of it is impoverished and limited.

THIS IS DEBS CONCEPT OF ISLAM (above)

The second view, often espoused by non-jurists and particularly by those who advocate some form of Islamic modernism and liberalism, envisions ijtihad more broadly. For modernist Muslims -- and I believe that Islamic modernism deeply influences all "moderate" Muslim thinking -- ijtihad is about freedom of thought, rational thinking and the quest for truth through an epistemology covering science, rationalism, human experience, critical thinking and so on.

When modernist Muslims claim that the door of ijtihad has been closed, they are lamenting the loss of the spirit of inquiry that was so spectacularly demonstrated by classical Islamic civilization at its peak. They are, in a sense, nostalgic for Ibn Sina' (Avicenna) and Ibn Rushd (Averroes), for al-Farabi, al-Biruni and al-Haytham -- scientists, philosophers and jurists of Islam's "Golden Age". Thus, modernist Muslims see ijtihad as the spirit of inquiry and desire for all forms of knowledge, not just religious and juristic, that needs to be revived to revitalize and restore Islamic civilization.

Ijtihad is alive and well, despite debs misgivings.

also be warned that hadeeth can be considered corrupted or even invalid- some are just rejected outright-

so hadeeth study is a good thing- but one has to be open to the possibilty that many are simply invented or added
peace
sorry for the inadequate ansers and may ALLAH forgive me if i have interpreted or misrepresneted anything unknowingly

its just my humble opinion
im not a scholar, just a searchihng adherent

Gentle Rick:

I think you need to see both sides of the coin on the issue of Islam. Islam is completely closed society. No changes/reforms allowed. It is because of this feature most Muslim countries I know live in dark ages. Where there is some sense of westernization, there is rebellion and anarchy. Its not the fault of the West that its policies/culture is diametrically opposite to that of Islam.

Regarding Quran, and its various adherents like Victoria and Moody, I think that they don't represent the front view of Islam. Fotr Christianity it is different. Ken Woodward and Pat Robertson are equally recognized. Not so in Islam. If you think that such a view of Christianity is wrong, then I think we need not engage in this discussion.

For centuries history of Islam is replete with blood and violence. Certainly there must have been people who wanted reform. It did not happen. The fanatics ruled, and established their claims by what is written in the Quran. They finally established that fundamentalism is the way to go in Islam. Islam is ruled by such barbaric dictates simply because Quran is favorable towards such barbarianism such as killing of infidels, subjugation of women, dhimmitude etc. There is noi escaping from this fact. To understand Islam you have to read the hadith. The hadith are saying of Muhammad (and his instructions) regarding various aspects of life.

Anyway, I think you are too quick to judge. Read the Quran, and read both the "enlightened" and "fundamentalist" commentaries (tafseer). In addition you may want to read books by Robert Spencer. Again, Victoria would scream hell, because Spencer has earned the ire of the Muslims through his writings on Islam. I would hasten to add that you read his book (and that of Ibn Warraq) and make your decision regarding right or wrong. Listening to net-mullahs is not wise.

- yours,

gentile deb

Gentile Deb,

As always, you are acquitting yourself well as a wise and thoughtful man.

Just as in Islam, where we have thoughtful and inclusive people such as Victoria and Moody to go against the radical nut jobs; we also have in Christianity some thoughtful and inclusive people such as Kenneth L. Woodward whose view is starkly different from fundamentalist evangelicals like Reverend Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell etc.

You say:

‘So far you have not shown other than speculation or indirect circumstantial evidence/inference that Christ stated in the thunderous and menacing words that those who are not Christians shall be condemned to everlasting hell.’

I say:

Here are the direct thunderous and menacing words of Jesus Christ, not ‘speculation or indirect circumstantial evidence/inference’:

John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

If you don’t ‘come to the Father, then are banished to burn in eternal hell. There is no other option.

Regards,

Gentle Rick

Gentle Rick,

So far you have not shown other than speculation or indirect circumstantial evidence/inference that Christ stated in the thunderous and menacing words that those who are not Christians shall be condemned to everlasting hell. (Contrast the threats in the Quran to unbelievers - a book that has grabbed you by the mind.)

You are inferring that because Christ upheld the messages of the Old Testament, so he must be asking for all to convert or else the unconverted shall be cast in everlasting hell.

I am not a Christian. However I have read the interpretations by Kenneth L. Woodward who frequently writes in Newsweek. His view, starkly different from fundamentalist evangelicals like Reverend Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell etc., is that the messages of Christ must be interpreted quite metaphorically.

I could be wrong, but I would like to know why Kenneth L. Woodward is wrong, and fundamentalist views of Robertson and Falwell are right.

- yours,

gentile deb

Gentle Deb,

Here is some more food for thought relative to your eternal salvation:

From: http://www.ichthys.com/mail-heaven%20and%20hell.htm
Jesus Christ is the issue in all of this. He is the door through which we pass or from which we turn away (Jn.10:1-18). He is the only way to eternal life (Jn.14:6). He is the only path that leads upward (Matt.7:13-15). By committing our lives, our selves to Him, by believing in Him, His Person, human and divine, and His work, the ransom He paid for us by His death on the cross, and by demonstrating through our continuing faith that we mean what have said, we enter and abide in fellowship with Him and the Father now, and confidently anticipate the redemption of our bodies at that future time. We hope, confidently hope, for an eternity with Him who gave up everything He had so that we might be forgiven, so that we might be saved, so that we might be with Him and His Father, our Father, forever.
And having led [Paul and Silas] outside, he said, "Sirs, What must I do in order to be saved?" And they said to him, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your whole household." Acts 16:30-31

Regards,

Gentle Rick

Gentle Deb,

From: http://mysite.verizon.net/res0ov3c/wrath.htm

What about those who say that all the references to hell are found in the Old Testament and not the New Testament (thereby implying that the Father changed His mind when he sent Jesus)?

There are a couple responses to this. First, even if that were true, it wouldn't matter. Jesus Himself declared, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished" (Matthew 5:17-18).

The Law and the Prophets are the Old Testament. So even if hell were not mentioned in the New Testament, it wouldn't matter. Jesus validated the Old Testament Scriptures. . . lock, stock, and barrel.

Second, Jesus Himself talked many times about God's wrath and the reality of hell. If, as Christians, we don't believe the words of our Savior, then why do we call ourselves Christians? If we don't believe the words of Jesus, then we most certainly are not His followers. Listed below are just some of the times that Jesus Himself spoke of the wrath of God, judgment, and hell. In fact, the quotes given below are from just one of the four Gospels – Matthew.

"But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell." (Matthew 5:22)

"If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell." (Matthew 5:29-30)

Regards,

Gentle Rick

Gentle Rick,

I think your remarks about Christianity (item 2) are little far-fetched. Not, that they are wrong. I would just gently ask you to show where does Jesus Christ explicitly say that "those who will not convert to Christianity shall roast in everlasting hell ?"

-yours,

gentile deb

Victoria & Moody,

I will now respectfully offer a few gentle comments and will patiently await your gentle response:

1. Roughly 1.5 billion people, one-sixth (21%), of the world’s population is Muslim. I interpret verses 003.085, 003.110 and 003.131 to imply that the 4.8 billion people (79%) of the world’s population are doomed to roast in everlasting hell, unless we convert to Islam. (http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html)

2. This is irrational in my humble opinion, but no more so than the 2.1 billion Christian believers who say that 67% of the world’s population will roast in everlasting hell, unless we convert to Christianity.

3. The 1.1 billion (17%) people who are Secular/Atheist/Agnostic, who say that they do not know if God exists (Agnostic), or lacking evidence to the contrary believe that God does not exist (Atheist), are more rational in my humble opinion, than either the Muslims or Christians who say that those who don’t agree with them are doomed to burn in the fire of everlasting hell.

What do you say?

Moody,

Thank you for your thoughtful post. I particularly like your opening paragraph:

‘Opinions are made upon understanding and certain knowledge, which differ from person to person. For some God is a myth, for some they believe or want to believe according to their religion and for some He is as real as His creation.’

Victoria and Moody,

I have finished reading Chapter 3:

Translations of the Qur'an, Chapter 3:

AL-E-IMRAN (THE FAMILY OF 'IMRAN, THE HOUSE OF 'IMRAN)

Total Verses: 200
Revealed At: MADINA
Maududi's introduction

Some of my favorite verses are as follows:

003.033
YUSUFALI: Allah did choose Adam and Noah, the family of Abraham, and the family of 'Imran above all people,- (Similar to Judeo-Christian OT)

003.045
YUSUFALI: Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah; (Similar to Judeo-Christian OT)

003.047
YUSUFALI: She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is! (Similar to Judeo-Christian OT)

003.084
YUSUFALI: Say: "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)." (As Victoria always says, Islam is a peace loving and inclusive religion, but it does reserve the right to defend itself.)

003.085
YUSUFALI: If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good). (Oops! Not so inclusive)

003.096
YUSUFALI: The first House (of worship) appointed for men was that at Bakka: Full of blessing and of guidance for all kinds of beings:

003.097
YUSUFALI: In it are Signs Manifest; (for example), the Station of Abraham; whoever enters it attains security; Pilgrimage thereto is a duty men owe to Allah,- those who can afford the journey; but if any deny faith, Allah stands not in need of any of His creatures.

003.110
YUSUFALI: Ye are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah. If only the People of the Book had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors

003.123
YUSUFALI: Allah had helped you at Badr, when ye were a contemptible little force; then fear Allah; thus May ye show your gratitude.

From Wikipedia:
The Battle of Badr (Arabic: غزوة بدر), fought March 17, 624 CE (17 Ramadan 2 AH in the Islamic calendar) in the Hejaz of western Arabia (present-day Saudi Arabia), was a key battle in the early days of Islam and a turning point in Muhammad's struggle with his opponents among the Quraish[1] in Makkah. The battle has been passed down in Islamic history as a decisive victory attributable to divine intervention or the genius of Muhammad. Although it is one of the few battles specifically mentioned in the Muslim holy book, the Qur'ān, virtually all contemporary knowledge of the battle at Badr comes from traditional Islamic accounts, both hadiths and biographies of Muhammad, written decades after the battle.

Quraysh or Quraish (Arabic: قريش transliteration: Qurayš. Other transliterations include "Quresh", "Quraysh", "Koreish" and "Coreish". Turkish: Kureyş. Albanian: Korreshi) was the dominant tribe of Mecca upon the appearance of the religion of Islam. It was both the tribe to which the Islamic Prophet Muhammad belonged and as well as the tribe that led the initial opposition to his message.

003.131
YUSUFALI: Fear the Fire, which is repaired for those who reject Faith: (Oops! Not so inclusive)

003.133
YUSUFALI: Be quick in the race for forgiveness from your Lord, and for a Garden whose width is that (of the whole) of the heavens and of the earth, prepared for the righteous,-

003.144
YUSUFALI: Muhammad is no more than a messenger: many Were the messenger that passed away before him. If he died or were slain, will ye then Turn back on your heels? If any did turn back on his heels, not the least harm will he do to Allah; but Allah (on the other hand) will swiftly reward those who (serve Him) with gratitude.

003.164
YUSUFALI: Allah did confer a great favour on the believers when He sent among them a messenger from among themselves, rehearsing unto them the Signs of Allah, sanctifying them, and instructing them in Scripture and Wisdom, while, before that, they had been in manifest error.

Opinions are made upon understanding and certain knowledge, which differ from person to person. For some God is a myth, for some they believe or want to believe according to their religion and for some He is as real as His creation. Below are few examples in the favor of their belief:

For Muslims Big Bang Theory is not something new, it is more than 1400 years old, revealed in their Holy Book along with more than 1000 other scientific facts which are happened to be established recently in couple of centuries. And the answers of so many confusing questions which keep us going astray throughout our lives. And as a fact Muslims know they were revealed before discovered and further on top of it that not a single verse of their holy book is in conflict with any logical/scientific approach (infect every time scientific discoveries providing proof in favor of the last revelations), make them more focused/practicing/fundamentalist or what ever others think about them and made it very easy for them to reach to the conclusion...simply apply the scientific rule of Probability....What if it is 100% correct...IF YOU UNDERSTAND PORBABILITY RULE THEN ITS NOT A JOKE !!), very few examples out of All from the Holy book as proof,

I have created all the creatures from earth and all the living beings are made out of water (Chapter 21) (living being which are meant to die/perish)
Don’t you see the earth and sky was together and I separated them, still you don’t believe
(Chapter 21)
I have created sky upon earth for your protection and there is sign for you
(Chapter 21)
All the stars, moon and sun are floating in their skies
(Chapter 21)
All the skies are holding with out pillars and there is sign for you
(Chapter 21)

For Muslims God means (The One, Ultimate Creator, Who is Uncreated and above time always present before and after time and beyond our limited level of comprehension)

Below is the TOUCH STONE of God that He revealed in Holy Book, when the question about God was raised:
1- He is One and Only
2-the Eternal, Absolute;
, the eternally Besought of all! on Whom all depend.
3-He begets not, nor is He begotten.
4-And there is none comparable unto Him.
And none is like Him.

Please comments are not necessary WITHOUT VARIFICATION/RESEARCH of the original text and authentic translations by ONLY Muslim scholars to avoid any twisting and deceptive techniques IN GENERAL PRACTICE!!

Opinions are made upon understanding and certain knowledge, which differ from person to person. For some God is a myth, for some they believe or want to believe according to their religion and for some He is as real as His creation. Below are few examples in the favor of their belief:

For Muslims Big Bang Theory is not something new, it is more than 1400 years old, revealed in their Holy Book along with more than 1000 other scientific facts which are happened to be established recently in couple of centuries. And the answers of so many confusing questions which keep us going astray throughout our lives. And as a fact Muslims know they were revealed before discovered and further on top of it that not a single verse of their holy book is in conflict with any logical/scientific approach (infect every time scientific discoveries providing proof in favor of the last revelations), make them more focused/practicing/fundamentalist or what ever others think about them and made it very easy for them to reach to the conclusion...simply apply the scientific rule of Probability....What if it is 100% correct...IF YOU UNDERSTAND PORBABILITY RULE THEN ITS NOT A JOKE !!), very few examples out of All from the Holy book as proof,

I have created all the creatures from earth and all the living beings are made out of water (Chapter 21) (living being which are meant to die/perish)
Don’t you see the earth and sky was together and I separated them, still you don’t believe
(Chapter 21)
I have created sky upon earth for your protection and there is sign for you
(Chapter 21)
All the stars, moon and sun are floating in their skies
(Chapter 21)
All the skies are holding with out pillars and there is sign for you
(Chapter 21)

For Muslims God means (The One, Ultimate Creator, Who is Uncreated and above time always present before and after time and beyond our limited level of comprehension)

Below is the TOUCH STONE of God that He revealed in Holy Book, when the question about God was raised:
1- He is One and Only
2-the Eternal, Absolute;
, the eternally Besought of all! on Whom all depend.
3-He begets not, nor is He begotten.
4-And there is none comparable unto Him.
And none is like Him.

Please comments are not necessary WITHOUT VARIFICATION/RESEARCH of the original text and authentic translations by ONLY Muslim scholars to avoid any twisting and deceptive techniques IN GENERAL PRACTICE!!

Opinions are made upon understanding and certain knowledge, which differ from person to person. For some God is a myth, for some they believe or want to believe according to their religion and for some He is as real as His creation. Below are few examples in the favor of their belief:

For Muslims Big Bang Theory is not something new, it is more than 1400 years old, revealed in their Holy Book along with more than 1000 other scientific facts which are happened to be established recently in couple of centuries. And the answers of so many confusing questions which keep us going astray throughout our lives. And as a fact Muslims know they were revealed before discovered and further on top of it that not a single verse of their holy book is in conflict with any logical/scientific approach (infect every time scientific discoveries providing proof in favor of the last revelations), make them more focused/practicing/fundamentalist or what ever others think about them and made it very easy for them to reach to the conclusion...simply apply the scientific rule of Probability....What if it is 100% correct...IF YOU UNDERSTAND PORBABILITY RULE THEN ITS NOT A JOKE !!), very few examples out of All from the Holy book as proof,

I have created all the creatures from earth and all the living beings are made out of water (Chapter 21) (living being which are meant to die/perish)
Don’t you see the earth and sky was together and I separated them, still you don’t believe
(Chapter 21)
I have created sky upon earth for your protection and there is sign for you
(Chapter 21)
All the stars, moon and sun are floating in their skies
(Chapter 21)
All the skies are holding with out pillars and there is sign for you
(Chapter 21)

For Muslims God means (The One, Ultimate Creator, Who is Uncreated and above time always present before and after time and beyond our limited level of comprehension)

Below is the TOUCH STONE of God that He revealed in Holy Book, when the question about God was raised:
1- He is One and Only
2-the Eternal, Absolute;
, the eternally Besought of all! on Whom all depend.
3-He begets not, nor is He begotten.
4-And there is none comparable unto Him.
And none is like Him.

Please comments are not necessary WITHOUT VARIFICATION/RESEARCH of the original text and authentic translations by ONLY Muslim scholars to avoid any twisting and deceptive techniques IN GENERAL PRACTICE!!

Opinions are made upon understanding and certain knowledge, which differ from person to person. For some God is a myth, for some they believe or want to believe according to their religion and for some He is as real as His creation. Below are few examples in the favor of their belief:

For Muslims Big Bang Theory is not something new, it is more than 1400 years old, revealed in their Holy Book along with more than 1000 other scientific facts which are happened to be established recently in couple of centuries. And the answers of so many confusing questions which keep us going astray throughout our lives. And as a fact Muslims know they were revealed before discovered and further on top of it that not a single verse of their holy book is in conflict with any logical/scientific approach (infect every time scientific discoveries providing proof in favor of the last revelations), make them more focused/practicing/fundamentalist or what ever others think about them and made it very easy for them to reach to the conclusion...simply apply the scientific rule of Probability....What if it is 100% correct...IF YOU UNDERSTAND PORBABILITY RULE THEN ITS NOT A JOKE !!), very few examples out of All from the Holy book as proof,

I have created all the creatures from earth and all the living beings are made out of water (Chapter 21) (living being which are meant to die/perish)
Don’t you see the earth and sky was together and I separated them, still you don’t believe
(Chapter 21)
I have created sky upon earth for your protection and there is sign for you
(Chapter 21)
All the stars, moon and sun are floating in their skies
(Chapter 21)
All the skies are holding with out pillars and there is sign for you
(Chapter 21)

For Muslims God means (The One, Ultimate Creator, Who is Uncreated and above time always present before and after time and beyond our limited level of comprehension)

Below is the TOUCH STONE of God that He revealed in Holy Book, when the question about God was raised:
1- He is One and Only
2-the Eternal, Absolute;
, the eternally Besought of all! on Whom all depend.
3-He begets not, nor is He begotten.
4-And there is none comparable unto Him.
And none is like Him.

Please comments are not necessary WITHOUT VARIFICATION/RESEARCH of the original text and authentic translations by ONLY Muslim scholars to avoid any twisting and deceptive techniques IN GENERAL PRACTICE!!

Opinions are made upon understanding and certain knowledge, which differ from person to person. For some God is a myth, for some they believe or want to believe according to their religion and for some He is as real as His creation. Below are few examples in the favor of their belief:

For Muslims Big Bang Theory is not something new, it is more than 1400 years old, revealed in their Holy Book along with more than 1000 other scientific facts which are happened to be established recently in couple of centuries. And the answers of so many confusing questions which keep us going astray throughout our lives. And as a fact Muslims know they were revealed before discovered and further on top of it that not a single verse of their holy book is in conflict with any logical/scientific approach (infect every time scientific discoveries providing proof in favor of the last revelations), make them more focused/practicing/fundamentalist or what ever others think about them and made it very easy for them to reach to the conclusion...simply apply the scientific rule of Probability....What if it is 100% correct...IF YOU UNDERSTAND PORBABILITY RULE THEN ITS NOT A JOKE !!), very few examples out of All from the Holy book as proof,

I have created all the creatures from earth and all the living beings are made out of water (Chapter 21) (living being which are meant to die/perish)
Don’t you see the earth and sky was together and I separated them, still you don’t believe
(Chapter 21)
I have created sky upon earth for your protection and there is sign for you
(Chapter 21)
All the stars, moon and sun are floating in their skies
(Chapter 21)
All the skies are holding with out pillars and there is sign for you
(Chapter 21)

For Muslims God means (The One, Ultimate Creator, Who is Uncreated and above time always present before and after time and beyond our limited level of comprehension)

Below is the TOUCH STONE of God that He revealed in Holy Book, when the question about God was raised:
1- He is One and Only
2-the Eternal, Absolute;
, the eternally Besought of all! on Whom all depend.
3-He begets not, nor is He begotten.
4-And there is none comparable unto Him.
And none is like Him.

Please comments are not necessary WITHOUT VARIFICATION/RESEARCH of the original text and authentic translations by ONLY Muslim scholars to avoid any twisting and deceptive techniques IN GENERAL PRACTICE!!

Hermit wrote:

"In short, start doing things that are effective instead of doing what the terrorists want us to do, which is precisely what the Bush administration has done. You can't fight terrorism with conventional military forces. All that does is cause more of the dislocation and resentment that breeds terrorism in the first place."

What you have suggested as " things that are effective" are actually impotent overtures to save the USA from the ugly behemoth of radical Islam. Maybe you would advice Nick Berg's father to forgive the Zarqwai who cut his son's throat and then had it on the video to mock at USA. I think with losers like you, and your failed policies, USA does have to fear of homegrown terrorist cells.

Victoria,

I have now finished Chapter 2. I continue find it very similar to the Judeo-Christian OT, with its stories of Adam and Eve in the Garden (of bliss instead of Eden), Moses, the Exodus from Egypt, Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, David and Goliath.

'And (as to) those who disbelieve in and reject My communications, they are the inmates of the fire, in it they shall abide' (002.039). (This is the most troubling for me so far; i.e. that honest skeptics who believe only what the natural universe reveals to scientifically inquiring minds are doomed to burn in everlasting hell. This is no different than the Judeo-Christian philosophy, but disturbing none the less.)

The Children of Israel are favored of Allah and excel all nations (002.047). (Similar to the OT and reminiscent of the Zionist Jews claim to be the Chosen People and Palestine is their Promised Land.)

'Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve' (002.062). (Islam is an inclusive faith and maintains that true believers of all faiths (Muslims, Jews, Christians, Sabians) in the one God, Allah, will have their reward in Heaven, or the Garden of Bliss.)

'Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors' (002.190). (As you often state, Islam is basically a religion of peace, but does reserve the right to defend itself.)

I’m sure that I will get to the controversial stuff that all the critics keep posting on soon enough, but so far so good.

"What plans do you have to combat terrorists - "

Simple; do the kinds of things that worked in Northern Ireland in the end; solid, constitutional police work, honest negotiations and a real effort to deal with the underlying problems exploited by the terrorists.

A real effort at rebuilding in Afghanistan, instead of the half hearted empty promises we've seen there, would go a lot further to fighting Islamist extremism than getting caught in a civil war in Iraq (and it would be a hell of a lot cheaper, too.)

A well supported humanitarian and peacekeeping mission in Darfur, genuine efforts at combating AIDS and hunger in Africa and a move to fair trade practices with African and South Asian countries would also be more effective than military action, and again a hell of a lot cheaper.

Serious financial regulations to restrict the money-laundering that terrorist financing relies on would further inhinit the spread of extremist ideology and limit their range of action.

And of course provide real security at ports and airports (not this stupid no toothpaste on the plane crap, either, I mean well paid, well trained security personnel) and industrial plants. No terrorist is ever going to bother going to the trouble smuggling a chemical or nuclear weapon into the US when there are unprotected chemical plants, nuclear stations and LPG tankers out there.

In short, start doing things that are effective instead of doing what the terrorists want us to do, which is precisely what the Bush administration has done. You can't fight terrorism with conventional military forces. All that does is cause more of the dislocation and resentment that breeds terrorism in the first place.

What's your solution Deb? Blow up more stuff? I don't think that's working...

Regards

A Hermit

im sorry i cant stay but a second and cant respond tonight- if i start to, ill never get the things done i need to-
just a quick note deb-

you are aware that gandhi (a brown guy from india) credits henry david thoreau ( a white guy from new england) with giving him the inspiration for non-violent civil disobedience? he got it from reading the book, civil disobedience.

later, martin luther king,jr. (a black guy from america) gathered his inspiration from gandhi.

i always say, every generation is sitting on the shoulders of the giants who went before them.

i heartily recommend gandhis autobiography-
and thoreaus civil disobedience.

sorry i cant stay-

A man shown denouncing Israel and praising "THE JIHAD WAY" resigned Thursday from the state Commission on Immigration.

MUSLIM AMERICAN SOCIETY president Dr. Esam Omeish was appointed to the commission by Gov. Tim Kaine.

In a video that appears on YouTube, Omeish is shown at a rally in Washington last year denouncing the invasion of Lebanon during that time by what he calls the "Israeli war machine."

Omeish, a surgeon at INOVA Alexandria Hospital, also accused Israel of genocide and massacres against Palestinians and said the "Israeli agenda" controls Congress.

In a separate, undated video, Omeish tells a crowd of Washington-area Muslims, "The JIHAD WAY is the way to liberate your land."

A caller to Kaine's radio program today on the Virginia News Network asked the governor about the Omeish appointment and the video.

Kaine said in a statement that he's concerned about Omeish's statements. The governor said Omeish did not want the controversy to distract from the work of the Commission.

and

The MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD is the parent organization of HAMAS, formed in 1987 in the Palestinian territories to combat Israeli occupation. The Brotherhood remains active in many parts of the world, dedicated to increasing fundamentalist Islamic influence. A key goal is to place nations under SHARIAH.

SHARIAH is a Muslim system of rules and laws based on the Quran that govern all aspects of life, including food, dress and religious tithing, or zakat. In nations living under SHARIAH such as Iran and Saudi Arabia, there is little or no distinction between religion and state. In its most fundamental form, SHARIAH also mandates harsh criminal punishments, such as stonings and cutting off thieves' hands.

In the U.S., the BROTHERHOOD emerged as an immigrant student movement in the 1960s, but according to experts, there is no current discernible MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD presence in the U.S. today, although most agree some of its adherents remain.

Esam Omeish, president of the Virginia-based MUSLIM AMERICAN SOCIETY, or MAS, says the documents introduced in the Holy Land trial are full of "abhorrent statements and are in direct conflict of the very principles of our Islam."

"The Muslim community in America wishes to contribute positively to the continued success and greatness of our civilization," Dr. Omeish said. "The ethics of tolerance and inclusion are the very tenets that MAS was based on from its inception."

His group, formed in 1993, is thought by many to be the BROTHERHOOD's current incarnation in the U.S., although he and other MAS leaders say their group formed as an alternative to radicalism.

"MAS is not the MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD," Dr. Omeish said. The society "grew out of a history of Islamic activism in the U.S. when the MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD once existed but has a different intellectual paradigm and outlook."

Nope, not yet, but I'm only half-way through Chapter 2.

Rick:

I appreciate your love and respect for Victoria. May Allah bless you.

BTW, are you a convert to Islam ?

Deb,

As Victoria always says, we must look at the entire work in its whole, not just cherry pick the bad parts.

If we did that with the Judeo-Christian OT, we would learn that we are commanded to kill all those who work on the Sabbath, all children who curse their parents, all who curse the Lord (God dam* it!), steal their neighbor’s slave, all gays, all wh*res, etc., etc., etc….

Get the picture?

I prefer to focus my wrath on the Moron in the White House who is committing genocide with my tax dollars, and inciting the nut jobs to retaliate. I can do something about that next November 2008.

Rick:

Can you please quote verbatim from the Quran (copy of which you may have) what it says in the following places:

(a) Quran (002:216)
(b) Quran (004:095)
(c) Quran (005:033)
(d) Quran (008:038,039)
(e) Quran (009:005,029)
(f) Quran (047:004)

And can you provide the contexts behind these messages, and how the relate to the present time ?

The Quran's vicious attitude towards non-Muslims has been legitimized by the existence of Israel and the Jewish people. For your information, long before this present-day "criminal land and oil-field grabs" (??) started, Muhammad was reportedly killing/expelling/converting Jews as one may read in any credible biography of him, except the sanitized ones made especially pleasant for the US market. This was just to exemplify how to follow Allah's timeless message of "peace". There were no running oil-fields then in Makkah and Madinah. Jews did not grab anything from Muslims at that time in 629 A.D.

Get the drift of my answer to your question, Rick ?

Deb,

And what do you suppose is the root cause of your:

…(IED) bomb blast victims wailing as they were pushed into the ambulances with their children and family crying haplessly…

…bomb-throwing, throat-slitting jihadis…

… bombings, decapitations,…

It couldn’t be the criminal land and oil field grabs in Palestine and Iraq by the world’s foremost terrorist state US_Israel could it?

Victoria,

This Chapter 2, Verses 1-60 so far is very similar to the Judeo-Christian OT. Adam and his wife (not named as Eve) in verse 35 dwell in the Garden but commanded not to eat of one specific tree.

But Satan makes them eat of course and they are thrown out of the Garden.

Verse 40: O Children of Israel call to mind the special favour which I bestowed upon you.

Verse 49: And remember, We delivered you from the people of Pharoah…

Verse 50: And remember we divided the sea…

This is very similar too OT so far, except:

Verse 62: Those who believe (in the Qur’an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians, - any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with the Lord…

This is very different and inclusive of all religions. It sounds like the God of Islam (Allah) and the Judeo-Christian God (Jehova) are the same.

Hermit,

I would suggest, upon reading your response, to get out of the crabby shell and see the reality. The imaginative "we'll not bow down before terrorists and/or allow ourselves to be terrorized" sounds pretty primitive. What plans do you have to combat terrorists - all poised to let loose their "dogs of war" ? Simply saying that you refuse to be overwhelmed/consumed by the fear of terrorism sounds naive and stupid.

Please have some concrete action plans on how to do this. Do plan non-violence (Gandhian methods) to counter violence ? How would you react if you were witnessing (IED) bomb blast victims wailing as they were pushed into the ambulances with their children and family crying haplessly ? Advice the victims to have patience, not to overreact and ask them to move onwith their lives ? If that's what you propose, then we have starkly divergent views. Every innocent life is worth saving and any effort to thwart the Muslim terrorists from carrying out their plans of increasing the body-count is worth better than your repudiation of "overreaction". Unless you clarify your position on overreaction and all that babble, you do sound as a bleeding heart leftist liberal - a lost cause.

Also, much to the contrary, "moderate Muslims" don't exist. There are active (bomb-throwing, throat-slitting jihadis) and passive believers. Passive (Muslim) believers, in my view, are not living upto the dictates of the Quran (004:095) which states very clearly that:

" Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-" (ABDULLAH YUSUF ALI's English translation of the Quran].

(Check out the University of Southern California Muslim Student Association Islam link:
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html)

Also, it is a weird thing that moderate Muslims do blame non-Muslims for puuting all Muslims and Islam in the same category as the terrorists. These "moderates" say that Islam is a peaceful religion. That's of course half-true. Islam means Submission to the Supreme Will. The same USC website states that it is false to assume that Islam is a religion of peace. (Check the website very thoroughly.) So, Islam is indeed not a peaceful religion and advocates violence. Some on this blog, such as thge faithful Muslimah Victoria, can make all kinds of absurd claims, but such claims have to accepted by the Islamic scholarship. Till such claims are acceptable by the majority of the Muslim ummah, and not just in USA, I shall hold that Islam is not a religion of peace.

Secondly, if moderate Muslims are claiming that terrorists are a tiny minority distorting Islam by their violent actions, then it is incumbent upon the Muslims to rid their religion of such radical fanatics, such as Osama bin Laden, and the Taliban/Al-Qaeda variety. Thus, in this war against (Islamic) terror, I would have expected that countries like Pakistan, Bangladesh, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Iran, United Arab Emirates, Oman, Jordan, Turkey, Syria, Lebanon, Indonesia, Malaysia, Egypt, Palestine, Algeria, Morocco and all other Islamic Republics or Muslim majority countries to send a convoy of special army equipped with arms to Afghanistan, Sudan, Somalia and other troublespots to have the Al-Qaeda or other terrorists smoked out and handed over to International Justice for committing crimes against humanity. It would then show the true commitment of these Muslim majority countries to a true benign and tolerant form of Islam. Such would really generate hope amongst non-Muslims for a co-existence with Muslims. But, absence of such efforts show that, to paraphrase Samuel Huntington, Islam prefers bloody borders.

We (non-Muslims) don't know why, not do we (non-Muslims) have an obligation to know why it did not happen. The action would require Islam to be reformed. Such reforms have to be generated and accepted by Muslims only. Societal reforms cannot be imposed by others externally. Anytime such possibilities are discussed, it gets pegged with the issue of Israel vs. Palestinian conflict, and USA's support for Israel. Well, for me, I am tired of this hypocrisy. I see bombings, decapitations, and then incongrous double-talk by leftist liberals (like you Hermit) and only despair. There must "moderate Muslims", according to you Hermit, but any absence of collective action from such a group makes their existence imaginary - to state politely.

rick- congratulations on your decision to find out for yourself what the qu'ran says instead of letting others decide for you.

i really really really recommend you just get a paperback english translation and just read it through.

trying to read 3 different translations on a computer screen (to me) is really annoying and distracting.
also theres no continuity of thought or reasoning.
that site is for comaparative studies.

im more like ray bradbury- i love to feel a book in my hands and take it with me wherever i go-

there are several promising looking translations that may be coming to print soon, and an excellent one by asma aslan called unreading the patriarchal qu'ran-

just stay far far away from the noble qu'ran.
far far far away.
there are so many parenthetical insertions in it- that sometimes it barely resembles the qu'ran, but seems like the translator is just putting forth their own views. and those views are very fundamentalist and rigid.

im on the 14th sura (chapter) now.

another interesting difference about the qu'ran-
it does not follow a chronological timetable- its not a story like the bible, or tanakh(jewish books) or upanishads.

alright then, peace- im a little busy today so ill check back insha'alla. (if the god wills it)

the pew poll is the one most cited-

of course you have to examine it for a bit-

http://pewresearch.org/assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf

it includes methodology and breakdowns that answer any of the questions by the author.

Yep, I think so. The Hermit must be Kenneth Ballen. I found this link to an interesting blog (The Blog from Hell) that takes issue with your conclusions based on your poll. It makes some good points. Are Harry Truman and George Bush terrorists? They both have slaughtered a lot of civillians. I think not. In the case of Bush, he is just a moron. In the case of Truman, his actions were probably justified.

I will have to study some more to see which side I come down on.

What do you think Victoria?

http://normdoering.blogspot.com/2007/03/terror-free-tomorrow.html

I found a Christian Science Monitor article called, "The myth of Muslim support for terror" about a poll conducted by an organization called Terror Free Tomorrow that claims to show that Muslim countries have fewer pro-terrorist attitudes than Americans do.

The article begins with this paragraph:

"Those who think that Muslim countries and pro-terrorist attitudes go hand-in-hand might be shocked by new polling research: Americans are more approving of terrorist attacks against civilians than any major Muslim country except for Nigeria."

According to the article U.S. citizens are more approving of "terrorist attacks" than most Muslim countries. However, I smell a rat. Maybe I'm paranoid and too deeply distrustful of Washington but something doesn't add up.

The author of the Christian Science Monitor article is Kenneth Ballen and he happens to be the founder and president of Terror Free Tomorrow, a non-partisan, 501(c)(3) not-for-profit organization in Washington, D.C. whose advisory board is headed by Senator John McCain and Lee H. Hamilton.

In Iran, your existence will be denied and then erased from memory:

http://pageoneq.com/news/2007/Irans_President_scrubs_reference_to_gays_in_speech_fr_0925.html

I can't believe the support Ahmadinejad has in Muslim communities worldwide. I'm beginning to understand how this works..

So Hermit,

Let me guess, you are not John MaCain or Lee Hamilton. How about Kenneth Ballen?

I'm impressed, whoever you are.

Deb says: "The Islamic radicals are not *numerically* a big force. However, they wreck havoc with their mode of combat - asymmetrical warfare/terrorism. This paralyzes any government and they are often unable to deal with in a conventional manner."

Well that's exactly my point, Deb. Terrorism is only effective if we allow ourselves to become terrified. The goal of any terrorist attack is not the immediate damage of the attack itself, it's the hoped for over-reaction by the targeted government.

How often have we seen peace talks in the middle east derailed because of a terrorist attack? If it looks like progress is being made someone (usually the Palestinians, but not always) who opposes the peace process commits an atrocity and the victimized side (usually, but not always, the Israelis) accomadate the terrorists and do exactly what they wanted by pulling out of the talks. I've never understood why...

It's the over-reaction by US that gives the terrorists power beyond their numbers. When we start lumping all of Islam in with the terrorists (which makes as much sense in the real world as lumping all Catholics in with the IRA or all SOuthern Baptists in with the Ku Klux Klan) we give them power by making them look bigger and more powerful than they really are.

I have no interest in defending Islamic theology or tradition any more than I'm interested in the Christian version (and yes, I have read the Quran, though I'm admittedly more familiar with the Bible's atrocities, contradictions and absurdities...I don't personally have much use for either of them) and I'm not being some naive bleeding heart here, Deb, if that's what you're thinking. I'm being a hard nosed realist who refuses to play the game by the terrorist's rules. When you accept the extremist's narrative of "us vs them" you have already surrendered to them.

Like I keep saying, I refuse to live in fear and I won't be manipulated into being part of the problem.

-----------

James; the problem in Europe isn't multicultualism, its a lack of multiculturalism. In France, for example, Muslim residents are expected to be French first; their girls are not allowed to wear headscarves to school in the interest of having everyoneconform to a French image. At the same time, if you have brown skin and an Arab name you wil find it very difficult to be taken seriously when you look for a job. In Germany the Turkish population are still second class citizens, invited in as "guest workers" but never afforded full citizenship. It's this kind of separation which creates hard feelings.

Here in North America there is a lot more accptance of other cultures and religions, and the result, as reflected in opinion pols, is a society whee most people, including Muslims, see themselves as Americans or Canadians first.

http://pewforum.org/surveys/muslim-american/

As for support for terrorism, here's some interesting facts to consider:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0223/p09s01-coop.html

"Those who think that Muslim countries and pro-terrorist attitudes go hand-in-hand might be shocked by new polling research: Americans are more approving of terrorist attacks against civilians than any major Muslim country except for Nigeria.

The survey, conducted in December 2006 by the University of Maryland's prestigious Program on International Public Attitudes, shows that only 46 percent of Americans think that "bombing and other attacks intentionally aimed at civilians" are "never justified," while 24 percent believe these attacks are "often or sometimes justified."

Contrast those numbers with 2006 polling results from the world's most-populous Muslim countries – Indonesia, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Nigeria. Terror Free Tomorrow, the organization I lead, found that 74 percent of respondents in Indonesia agreed that terrorist attacks are "never justified"; in Pakistan, that figure was 86 percent; in Bangladesh, 81 percent."

People in Muslim countries are less likely than Americans to express support for deliberate attacks on civilians. Who should I be more worried about?

Regards

A Hermit

Deb-

Americans are becoming increasingly aware of the tragedy of multiculturalism. In America (as in Europe) Islam is using weak bureaucracy and left leaning institutions (like the media and the "politically correct") to slowly but methodically introduce the cult of Islam and their Shari’a law into our societies.

America must learn from Europe. Assimilation there was preordained by a 1970 pact with the Arabs to exchange oil at a favorable price for letting Muslims immigrate in great numbers into Europe, and for Europe to take the Muslim side in international dealings with the Arabs against Israel. They now face Islamization.

Contrary to the "politically correct" popular belief, not all religions are good and not all are equal to other religions. Islam is promoted by some in America as a “religion of peace,” but in reality the Allah that Islam worships believes in killing or making slaves of all non-believers. That makes Islam not a true religion but an ideology which demands the death sentence for any Muslim who departs from it and its rigid demands.

PLEASE NOTE: a Muslim's strict allegiance is not to America but to their ideological group- Islam. There is no choice for true Muslim believers. Although they live among us, they do not hold traditional American ideals.

Islam is hardly a “religion of peace” – It is more appropriately designated as a “cult of death”. Islamic culture elevates their suicide bombers and mujahadeen to “idol martyr" social status. We all need to pay attention and learn to think independent of the "politically correct". We must assist in the dissemination of these truths and help to counter the plague that is upon us.

Deb Chatterjee,

My opinion, for what it is worth, is that our openness to different ideas is the source of our strength. We should not be in the business of limiting immigration, or expelling people as has been suggested by some, based on peoples’ religious beliefs.

I think that as we evolve, as time goes on, the position of the atheist/agnostic and scientific thought will naturally win out over religious beliefs, especially those of the obviously ridiculous extremists.

You may think that this is dangerous liberal sentiment, but I agree with the Hermit; the closed minded bigotry of the right wing nut jobs is far more dangerous.

PS:

Thanks for the link to the Qur’an. Now I can read along with Victoria and quiz her on difficult passages. I just finished Chapter 1. It seemed innocuous enough. Which chapter are you on Victoria? When does the Ramadan end?

Salaam

DONT ASK ME IF I FOLLOW SO FAR DEB- I POSTED THE LINK

way beyond any mild callousness- was her dishonesty, and her betrayal of friends- and that her own selfish pursuits made her oblivious to the danger she put other people in -

you obviously missed the part where she deliberately revealed the identity of the second director- knowing that to do so would jeopardize his safety-

if you know someone is murderous- and you deliberately lead them to a "friend" just sothat you can use that 'friend' to further your own hate agenda- it is a despicable and foul act

you were glowing about her as a source of islamic knowledge- but shes corrupt and ruthlessly self promoting and driven.

there are so many other instances in those letters-

but mostly the regret of people who knew and befriended her and her betrayal of them.

deb- the fact that you can minimize the details of these letters- by characterizing them as "tactless" (hardly a bad thing)
shows how ridiculously you spin even evidence in front of you to your own agenda- which finds resonance in this poor twisted woman who betrayed her friends, THE GOVERNMENT AND PARTY THAT GAVE HER SANCTUARY-
remember "to hell with the VDD?"

dont talk to me like im stupid deb becuase im sick of your sneakiness

you try to corrupt and vilify islam because tof the overwhelming hatred and anger in your own heart-

now you seek to justify this disgusting behavior in others when it is exposed

you will never convince me of anything except your own bad intentions

ill answer or not answer as i see fit- but i do not in any way respect your hatred

i didnt even read the rest of your post- besides- you dont have the honesty or objectivity to even interpret what is before you

i never hear you speak of faith, of god, of anything good about anything

only long and ugly harangues about islam

i cannot even begin to imagine what fuels such an obsession- but i cease to expect anything of value from your opinions

Victoria:

The link to MIM was worth. Thank you.

However, what that link shows was the tactless nature of Ayaan Hirsi Ali. The letters on the MIM show that Ali was busy self-promoting herself and hence her callous self-absorbtion is speculated as a reason for Theo van Gogh's brutal death by a Muslim. (I don't agree that Ali has done a bad thing by polarizing Holland to its extremes. She was right and the contents of the letters have differences with me on this issue. Do you follow so far ?)

You maybe aware of the radical Islam is the cause of van Gogh death. I am sure you don't support it, but you (like many so-called moderate Muslims) have not taken any vocal stand against your fellow fanatic/radical Muslims. It is also happening in USA. FOX news (your favorite channel) had a newspiece that stated that many Muslims in USA are also engaging in polygamy - as the religion sanctions it. Slowly we do expect to see that with the growth of the Muslim population, the America that non-Muslim citizens like me knew does not exist. Rather the Third World political culture - steeped in respecting religious groupies shall come to force. It is this phenomenon that is quite alarming. What would your position be if your favorite organization CAIR actively promotes, thanks to brother Dr. Ibrahim Hooper, Shariah law for Muslims. Of course that clown Hooper had supported the 9/11 by stating that America deserved it. There was little outcry amongst the US Muslim community over such remarks. Same thing with this rabid Muslim - Mahmoud Ahmadinejad - who is getting accolades from some visible section of the American Muslim community for taking it out on USA in US soil. I am sure that 20 years ago, this form of blatant anti-national sentiment would have no takers. I am sorry, but with the growth of Islam inside USA, such self-destructive acts are proliferating. The 9/11 terrorists may receive good support from some quarters of the Muslims in USA. (In UK they already have received support.) So, with the growth of the Muslim population the demise of any secular country is bound to happen. At least history shows that. This is the price that any country (and hence the world) shall pay for letting Islam be the world's fastest growing religion.

With obfuscators like you, who have been programmed to negate anything bad about Islam or cry out hoarse against any acerbic critique, the USA faces peril. I don't know where to start, but do see that regulating the Muslim population is an essential step in combating future 9/11 scenarios.

o BTW i noticed that i didnt say what the link there is- its a super right wing american conservative anti-muslim site- kind of like jihadwatch
its leading author is daniel pipes

just in case deb wants to claim its not valid because its slanted or liberal

its about ayaan ali hirsi

WOW talk about extreme censorship.

ive been trying to post the contents of that link for almost 2 solid months now

once every day for a week i tried.

just now i tried to post one PARAGRAPH out of it, it is always held by the bloggers for approval and then just disappears.

hmmm

deb, do you really think you can call hermit simpleminded and then expect him to dialogue with you?

even if you ever manage to come up with a point that isnt based on hating muslims- who will be left to listen to you?

Hermit:

The Islamic radicals are not *numerically* a big force. However, they wreck havoc with their mode of combat - asymmetrical warfare/terrorism. This paralyzes any government and they are often unable to deal with in a conventional manner. Even General David Petraeus is on record that this is a problem they are facing. BTW, it looks like you are simple-minded enough to view Islamic terrorism as a conventional law and order issue. Most liberals do view it the same way.

Finally, your wishful negation of the Islamic radicals and their power is not shared by me. I have read and seen enough to see the flaws in the arguments advanced by liberals. However our mutual debate on this blog or elsewhere does not diminish the most barbaric nature of radical Islam. For an academic understanding I suggest you start reading more about Islam at the website:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/msa/quran

Also, to know about the life of Muhammad, which is necessary to understand how Islam wants to manifest itself in various circumstances, read the book by Robert Spencer, THE TRUTH ABOUT MUHAMMAD: FOUNDER OF THE WORLD'S MOST INTOLERANT RELIGION. This book explains why Islamic terrorism is the most dangerous force and how may the war on Islamic terror be won. Yes, liberals may not like the book.

That should explain the mindset of the 9/11 terrorists all of whom came from affluent backgrounds and had significant western education, and also including the notorious Khaled Sheikh Muhammad who had MS degrees in engineering from USA. This phenomeon explains why obfuscators like Victoria when they raise the bogey of "moderate Muslims/benign Islam" are actually deceiving the American public. In reality, and from its history, Islamic countries are NOT moderates. This means Islamic countries which have accepted Islam as a state religion. So, I think Victoria, your friend is not the one who can be relied upon. There is more than what she says. Of course, "moderate Muslims" have often become the hardlined radicals at the flimsiest of reasons. (The Glasgow bomber, Dr. Kafeel Ahmed, was one such case.)

BTW, have you read the Quran ? Also, if you have read Ayaan Hirsi Ali, what do you think of her categorization of Muslims ?

"Read Ayaan Hirsi Ali's view about "moderate Muslims" and then lecture others."

Have done; and a few others as well, and talked to some actual moderate Muslims including Victoria here.

The only absurdity here, Deb, is the idea that radical Islamists are a big enough force to destroy Western civilization. They aren't.

The fascistic neo-cons who exploit the ignorance, fear and bigotry stirred up by the terrorists, on the other hand, are capable of doing a lot more damage than any anarchist.

Now, I personally think the whole world would be better off if everyone just let go of the superstitious aspects of all religions, Islam included, but I'm not going to run around quaking in fear or jumping to conclusions about people just because of their religious affiliation. I prefer to deal with people as individuals, not as stereotypes. You should try it, you might like it...;-)

Regards

A Hermit

Hermit:

Read Ayaan Hirsi Ali's view about "moderate Muslims" and then lecture others.

If the message of Islam is good or bad according to interpretation, then Islam is totally phony baloney. If the Quran is same for Osama bin Laden and for Victoria, then I fail to see how the concept of "moderate" Muslim comes as a legitimate definition in the Islamic lore.

There is nothing called "moderate Muslim". Because the Western culture and America is going to be destroyed, we see such absurd labeling. USA (and the western world) should wake up from the proverbial slumber if they want to avoid the "wrath of Allah".

Peace be with you.

Mike,

Thanks for the information, just more reason to stop enriching the Middle East with our dependence on oil.

It would also be a good to idea to stop financing our foreign misadventures, as well as our domestic gluttony (like tax cuts for the wealthy), through borrowing from China. They already have us over the barrel, so to speak.

Deb Chatterjee; the problem you and a lot of other people seem to have is an inability to make a distinction between the "nutjobs" and the mainstream, average believers. It's like looking at Fred Phelps or David Duke and assuming that all Christians share their insanity.

As an atheist I have no use for any religion, personally, but I don't make the mistake of thinking that all believers accept the most extreme versions of their faith. When you saddle someone like Victoria with the views of that Australian "nutjob" you are doing her a great disservice, and depriving yourself of the opportunity to learn a little something about the real world views of a moderate Muslim. We need more of that and less of the blind, frightened lashing out that we so often see around here.

Regards

A Hermit

"This hatred is not part of a global plan by Islam to conquer the world and convert us all to Islam"

FYI:

The governments of Dubai and Qatar were locked in battle Thursday to gain key footholds in some of the world's top stock exchanges, including the Nasdaq Stock Market and the London Stock Exchange, using cash gained from record oil prices.

The Nasdaq Stock Market reached a deal with Borse Dubai that will allow it to win control of a key Nordic exchange operator, the OMX, in return for giving up most of its holding in the London Stock Exchange as well as a fifth of itself.

The proposed plan would put an end to months of fighting between Dubai and the Nasdaq over the fate of the OMX -- and would for the first time bring Middle East ownership to one of America's two main stock exchanges.

http://www.marketwatch.com/News/Story/qatar-dubai-battle-footholds-top/story.aspx?guid=%7B64061376%2D27F3%2D4645%2DB071%2D8A072BABC62F%7D

OK fellow bloggers, let's recap, the question of the day is:

'On the anniversary of 9/11, what message would you like to send religious extremists?’

Religious extremists and terrorist radical groups exist and are increasing in number and capability. They are driven by hatred of the USA and Israel for our immoral and illegal occupation of Muslim holy land in Palestine and Iraq.

This hatred is not part of a global plan by Islam to conquer the world and convert us all to Islam, as the neocons and their minions in the White House would have us believe.

If we want to put a stop to these growing radical groups, we only have to put a stop to our illegal and immoral War on Islam.

And what is the root cause of our illegal and immoral behavior? It is the fact that they own the Oil Fields, and we want them.

Wake up people; let’s break our dependence on Middle East oil. We cannot keep the oil flowing by using overwhelming military power. The Powel Doctrine is dead. It cannot defeat the insurgent who swims in the sea of the people, as twice proven now in Vietnam and Iraq.

Imagine if the trillion dollars squandered on invading and occupying Palestine and Iraq had instead been spent on infrastructure, conservation and alternate energy sources. How much better off would be our economy as well as our national security.

well deb- you asked, i answered.

i did give you the benefit that you might actually be interested in an answer, and your intentions may have changed.
its pretty obvious you need a target-
but its not going to be me.

go chase your dark demons if you must, but i decline further communication.

Victoria,

You are just hiding behind the veil/charade of decency. Arguments and debates can turn ugly. People in USA/Europe have fought duels over arguments/opinions and got killed.

Muhammad had killed those who opposed his position or had rebelled against his message (of Islam). Unpleasant ? Yes. False ? No.

This is America. Its not some barbaric Islamic country that stones women. Free speech and that means obscene/arrogant speech needs to be tolerated. As long as that speech is not materially harming you, i.e., you don't lose your job or money or honey, you should not go bananas.

Quite frankly you sound like that nutjob Muslim Imam from Australia who stated that unclad women (implying women in bra and bikini on the beaches) are like uncovered fresh meat and shall legitimately attract rats for "tasting". (Implying that it is OK if men sexually attack such scantily clad women.)

Do you believe in Freedom of Speech ? Its opposite of Quran (005:033) though. No ?

deb- i boycotted you for awhile in the past because you were so overtly hateful in your posts to me personally.

if you come back with some ugliness- im cutting off.

deb- well- its awfully hard to give a straight answer to a crooked quesiton-
but ill try

1) i would show the where it says in the qu'ran that any who commit suicide is cursed by ALLAH abd their destination is hell

4:95 says to not sit at home when there is a fight that must be fought.
if someone is using that to justify their homicidal tendencies- (for whatever bizarre reason) then they are a maninac and there is probably no amount of reason or qu'ran that will affect them.

personally, there are no maniacs in my life that i love- or ever have to be honest.

the moon is not a holy symbol in islam.
so if someone is driven to suicidal extremes because they feel the moon is defiled- they are simply insane.

you have a bizarre and freaky mentality to imainge such reasons could make a person suicidal deb.

i dont fool myself that you have benign intentions here to ask such strange and twisted questions-

i imagine i will probably regret even asnwering you- as youve said many times that you hate islam.

also youve been really aggressive and disrespectful to me in the past-

i know you dont ask to understand- but have some motive to use what i say in a bad way.

finally- here is what i say to you-

a strong man is not strong because he overpowers others, but because he controls his anger.
(a paraphrase from the Prophet(pbuh)

Victoria (Muslimah):

I have a question for you. Suppose if your loved one (whosoever it maybe) just got radicalized and turned into a suicide bomber/terrorist, and then justifed his radical doctrine following Quran (004:095), like this guy Kafeel Ahmed - Glasgow bomber - what would your message to him/her as an American be ?

P.S.: Assume that the suicide bomber (someone you have loved) was radicalized, say, because USA has not banned Satanic Verses and people criticize Muhammad freely, causing wrath and ire of the faithful (Muslims). Or, maybe USA is in Iraq or maybe USA has not turned into an Islamic Republic or maybe USA sent men to the moon, and moon is a holy symbol in the Islamicv traditions. Any number of reasons can be considered.

Oh, before I forget: please answer, if you can, just to the point and don't just "beat about the bush" - you know what I mean ?

NOW:

victoria and rick can apologise to the readers who had to view their inappropriate posts on a board dedicated to "faith and its implications in a way that sheds light rather than generates heat."

I'm sorry Victoria. I did not mean to offend.

rick- i appreciate your good sentiments- but im a married lady, and i love you baby is a bit inappropriate-
but i know you mean it innocently so i take it i that spirit

peace

RICK- come see whats shaking in this corner of the blogosphere-

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/eboo_patel/2007/09/on_muslim_antisemitism/all_comments.html

Also in the WP: Shock Waves from Syria - Did Israel bomb a secret nuclear facility equipped by North Korea? http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/19/AR2007091901965.html

So the message to the Israelis is, your best bet is to take the next boat for Texas. If you keep this up, someone is sure to lay a few nuclear eggs in Tel Aviv and Haifa.

Also in today’s WP we see that: Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said Thursday an upcoming U.S.-sponsored Mideast conference must be "substantive," and that Israel and the Palestinians must draft a document beforehand that lays "foundations for serious negotiations."

The Palestinians want the conference, tentatively set for November, to yield an outline for a peace deal, complete with a timetable, while Israel wants a vaguer declaration of intent. Key Arab states, such as Saudi Arabia, have said they would only attend if concrete results are achieved. (Fat Chance). http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/20/AR2007092000289.html

As the the question of a message to the religious extremists, I say the message is to the British and American imperialists who are responsible for the creation of the extremists and terrorists in the first place:

For the case of the British, who were being terrorized by Menachem Begin’s Irgun, they should not have caved in and vacated the Palestine, leaving it to the terrorists.

Because the British caved in to the terrorist demands, we have had 60 years of uninterrupted war and terror in the so called ‘Holy Land’. Countless thousands of innocents (women and children) have been slaughtered, and millions of families have been driven into refugee camps in neighboring countries.

In today’s Washington Post we see that the Israelis are threatening to cut off the Gaza strip’s fuel and electricity. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/19/AR2007091901156.html

i just came upon this one while surfing, i looks interesting

cant vouch for it as i only skimmed it
http://zionofascism.wordpress.com/2007/04/08/zionism-and-911-rosie-and-roseanne/

Thanks Victoria.

here are some sites for you rick
you my know them already

http://www.palestineremembered.com/index.html

http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/

Speaking of 9/11, and since the primary cause of the attack on 9/11 was the mess in the Middle East, here's a post from another thread that applies here:

Rick says:

The question is:

What's the first thing Tony Blair should do if he wants to make progress as the Quartet's Mideast peace envoy? ("Quit" is not an acceptable answer.)

Since Britain started this whole mess with the Balfour Declaration in 1917, this is a singularly appropriate question.

Zuni says: ‘There never was a legitimate state of Palestine.’

Rick says: True, but following WWI, there was a British Mandate of Palestine that included Palestine and Transjordan, in which Palestine occupied the region now occupied by the illegitimate ‘State of Israel’, the West Bank and Gaza.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Zuni says: ‘What in the hell is illegal and immoral about the Balfour declaration and Jewish, nee Zionist immigration?

Rick says: From Wikipedia ‘The Balfour Declaration of 1917 (dated November 2, 1917) was a classified formal statement of policy by the British government on the partitioning of the Ottoman Empire in the aftermath of the World War I.

The letter stated the position, agreed at a British Cabinet meeting on October 31, 1917, that the British government supported Zionist plans for a Jewish "national home" in Palestine, with the condition that nothing should be done which might prejudice the rights of existing communities there.

So the result was the forceful injection by the Crusaders, of the Zionist Jews, who had been expelled from the region 2000 years ago; they could not coexist in peace with the native population. They had invaded and occupied this region following their great escape from slavery in Egypt; they had a Holier than Thou attitude, and claimed to be God’s chosen people.

Who would have thought that such a Zionist immigration could ever satisfy: ‘the condition that nothing should be done which might prejudice the rights of existing communities’ of Palestine?

The British soon recognized the folly of this policy and attempted to halt the Zionist immigration. They were attacked by a group named Irgun (some call it Etzel), established by the Right-Wing of the Zionist Movement in Palestine and the violent wing of the Zionist movement. The most well-known of these attacks was the King David Hotel bombing which occurred on July 22, 1946. This was a well-planned act engineered by the Irgun's Leader and future Prime Minster, Menachem Begin.

So the Balfour Declaration, and resulting Zionist immigration, was a terrible mistake. The British tried and failed to reverse this terrible decision.

Repercussions of this heinous crime are behind all turmoil and bloodshed in the Middle East including Iraq, Lebanon, Palestinian occupied territories, Syria, Iran etc.

The whole world will never see peace as long as the crime of the 20th century is not corrected.

thanks rick -theyre everywhere arent they?

thanks rick -theyre everywhere arent they?

YAWN. Dear jihaddist,

I do not try to converse with cowards. It is true that muslims are all cowards by definition because they are afraid to challenge their own beliefs. If you do, your "brothers and sisters" who are likewise vicious cowards, are commanded to kill you. How odd that your allh seems to have the same level of insecurity about chllenge to his doctrine as a common con man, and will allow no questioning of it by reason or experiment. No small wonder then, that you are so terrified of your allh that you will never allow youself to use the free thought that you have been granted by the all mighty true God, and will forever remain a coward who shivers in fear all of his life, without the courage to allow experimentation outside the rigid island of doctrine shoved through a time portal from a thousand years ago, and right down your own willing, wide open throat. So you will wear the doctrine of islam like a bridle or a muzzle on a poor beast of burden or yoke upon a slave. And apparently, like someone wholly broken in spirit or brainwashed, you choose to remain enslaved willingly.

I would no sooner try to communicate with a person like you than I would an animal. You are by your own description, a fanatic (as are all devout muslims) and therefore, beyond reason.

fanatic : a person with extreme, uncritical enthusiasm or zeal, as in politics or religion.

It serves no positive purpose to try to communicate with someone who is not open to reason. Clearly as a devout supporter of the cult of islam, you are either insane, hopelessly naive and easily led or else wicked beyond words to easily define. This is true because you openly advocate for a belief system that is misanthropic and deceitful by it's very explicit nature. It takes no parsing to find the infamy of islamic doctrine. One need only open and read from the Satanic Verses one's self.

I wish there were a bell that would ring every time you have written a statement above that you know to be a lie.

muslim organizations and leaders do not deliberately support terrorism - ding!

islam does not advocate the denigration or subjugation of women - ding!

mosques do not wuillingly often function as terrorist bases - ding!

islam is a relgion that more than anything promotes world peace - ding !

muslims do not want to take over the world by force or destroy it trying -ding!

Perhaps instead of changing the subject every time someone asks you a direct question (the favored ploy of those addicted to dishonesty), you could answer them directly? For instance, if you are not a coward (ding!),

why not explain briefly and directly please, answers to the following simple questions :

Why does your beloved koran tells it's followers to kill anyone who converts from islam to some other faith?

Why does the same text allow the murder of women for having an affair out of wedlock?

Why does your beloved koran advise on how and when a male may have sex with a goat or other helpless animal?

Why does islam preach that those who do not believe in allah should be murdered if they stand in the way of international conquest in your "religious leader's" name ?

How can any moral, sane "holy" text advise it's followers to deliberately lie to someone's face and then do exactly the opposite of what they promise to do (al Taqiyya) ?

How about a direct answer to one of those questions muslim instead of the coy, unmasculine, humiliating cowardice you display in avoiding those questions and retreating into silly prevarications and cute little tinkerbell-dances of deception ? Most non-muslim females have more courage and honesty in discourse than you who call yourself muslim ! You thereby humiliate your family each moment you draw breath to utter another lie. Shameful beyond words. How can anything but death and damnation be your reward then, when you dishonor your family by endless lies and trampling underfoot of truth ?

Tell me then,"muslim" why would any decent man wish to converse with you ?

In fact, if an audible "ding" automatically went off every time you lied in one of your above posts, each post would sound like one of those charming music boxes. YAWN!! Your thoughts and questions are like the mouthing of a beast. Remember mindless muslim, just because a creature has learned to wear clothing and to speak does not necessarily make it a human being. The law of Karma states, "As you treat others, so you shall be treated". Your precious islam preaches that non-believers who oppose your aspirations and laws are to be treated no better than animals. So you shall then be treated, and I regret, penned and slaughtered like animals when you take up the Satanic jihad against all that is Good and Just.

I advise others who post here to ignore and not to reply to your posts any further - althoug it has been amusing to see your assertions refuted with such skill and wit (I have derived great mirth and pride from them). In my way of life, (that of a civilized human being) one does not try to converse with the insane, one merely smiles and walks away. There is no reason left in you so long as you believe in and promulgate the endless infinite lies and blasphemies against the Human Spirit of what you and your kind call "islam". Selah.

May we meet on the battlefield some day so that I may personally correct your misconceptions about the civlized humans of the world, and truly show you paradise -- animal-who-wears clothing! Perhaps then that squirming thing between your ears will at long last find rest, as did the shamefully impotent defenders of the Ottoman Empire. If I cannot convert you to sanity, then you must be neutralized. Your insanity may not be entirely your own fault, but just as with a dog who has contracted rabies through no fault of it's own. We know that the so called moderate moslims enable and support the jihadists with their own political acts (and yet deny it ceaselessly).

I hope that so long as you remain faithful to the demon allah, you may find every other true muslim jihaddist's ultimate reward - to die screaming. So far in this War to End all Wars that your adored Usama Bin Laden began (or rather continued after you guys got your savage, *sses kicked out of Europe and Turkey in the 10th century after you tried to take over the world the first time), we have sent what about 100,000 of you to discover first hand (whether there are virgins waiting for you to abuse in) the afterlife? Selah! Here's a couple of questions for you to answer, animal-who-speaks :

Q : What do you call 100,000 dead muslim jihaddists?
A : A good start.

Q : How do you know when a devout muslim is lying ?
A : Their mouth is open!

Seeya, wouldn't wanna beeya! Signed - Joe Mamma and Joe Daddy Too - your friends! ding!!

Victoria..

I read it here, agreed, and repeated it in my post.

You need a rest.

Hi Victoria,

Don't let the trolls bother you. The Force is with you.

that was victoria

MARIAN- you'll notice the use of the same phrase in each post
one anonymous (or a different anonymous name like "someone or insight")
then one with your name

akk these posts are from different boards
but you'll notice the one with your name, and the anonymous posting on the salman rushdie question (example two) use the EXACT SAME PHRASE.

AND THEN THE LAST ONE AT 6:43 am
AND 6:58 AM

ALSO INSIGHT AT 6:11 AM THIS MORNING on the middle east blog(which i didnt include here)

so okay marian-
even your above statement-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"
Sure I'm the anon posters (I do occasionally agree with them)."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
certainly bears the grain of truth within it- many a truth is said in jest they say

also, each post is one anonymous, and one marian
but there is no way to deny the second example with the exact same words- that definitively proves you post sometimes anonymous sometimes with your name (on different blogs)
EXAMPLE ONE***********************

ANONYMOUS POST THEN MARIAN POST
SOMEONE :
Victoria, Victoria like we care what you are doing right now. You are being very SELF- ABSORBED these days. It is time for you to get a life!!!

September 17, 2007 8:37 AM

marian :
Victoria:

*You are SELF-ABSORBED. Why don't you spend some *time in a Muslim country before you declare *yourself an Islamic sage?
Posted on September 17, *2007 03:11
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

EXAMPLE TWO*************************
Anonymous:
"it is unfortunate that many westerners make conclusions of what they imagine islam to be based on incidences of behaviors of muslims instead of what the actual texts and doctirnes contend."

I "imagine" Islam is a death cult because Muslims in every corner of the earth are engaged in a violent "jihad".

Victoria "imagines" Islam is the religion of peace because she reads an English translation of the Koran.

Who has lost touch with reality?

"my own personal experiences in american mosques"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*You are SELF-ABSORBED. Why don't you spend some* *time in a Muslim country before you declare
*yourself an Islamic sage? **
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Posters have repeatedly confronted you with the reality of Islam. And you repeatedly twist away from that truth. Just because you wish Islam to be a religion of peace does not make it so.. Read the news. Muslims create violence and discord day after day.. Your interpretations of the Koran are false. Islam is a death cult and its aim is hatred and violence.

Victoria, you consistently turn your head and walk away from the ugly truths of Islam. You flee reality, but will return again and again to spin your peaceful Muslim myth. Give it up."

But please don't stop posting. Your inability to address Islamic violence is a lesson to every reader here.

September 17, 2007 12:01 PM |

EXAMPLE THREE**********************
~~~~~~~~~~~
marian :
Victoria:

Has Allah given you supernatural insight and control over posters and what happens on this forum?

Your posts point to the wisdom of others who have ceased to post during Ramadan.

You're becoming SELF CONSUMED..

September 18, 2007 6:43 AM

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Anonymous :
"ALLAH is the TOLERANT" and "So you should NOT BE EXTREMISTS"

Ok People. Victoria has given us the word on Muslims. No need to watch the media reports of Muslim terrorism and the ensuing violence.

Gee, Victoria, I'm so glad you cleared that up. Maybe next you will post on World Hunger or the AIDS Pandemic?

September 18, 2007 6:58 AM
````````````````````````````````````

so you see marian, im kind of tenacious, also i resource and cross check everything.

you can see how this helps me in my persoanl study of islam.

annoying, aint it?

ps- the cowardice of anonymous posting is one of my pet peeves

now this is a forgotten thread here- just us chickens-
but since you demanded proof- well- here it is in black and white
doesnt take a rocket scientist

For the love of Alla-ah.

Victoria is now guessing who the anon posters are. This is a new low in frivolous posts.

Sure I'm the anon posters (I do occasionally agree with them). And Victoria is Abdul Amin Musa.

I like that verse, Victoria; it echoes a much older saying popular in martial arts circles:

"He who conquers men has force, he who conquers himself is truly strong." -Lao Tzu

Regards

A (striving to be self conquering) Hermit

right back at you hermit- i am also quite proud of my humility!

heres this mornings fave-
Volume 8, Book 73, Number 135:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "The strong is not the one who overcomes the people by his strength, but the strong is the one who controls himself while in anger."

peace

Actually, Marian, I think Victoria is profoundly insightful...she got all that stuff about me just right. Could have been a little more forceful about the humility though, Victoria; having been raised a Mennonite I'm especially proud of my humility...;-)

Seriously, thanks for the kind words.

Regards

A Hermit

i guess its fair to assume you are anonymous, marian.

i guess we know who the anonymous poster is now- but it doesnt take supernatural powers to figure out.

well, im not going anywhere marian

Victoria:

Has Allah given you supernatural insight and control over posters and what happens on this forum?

Your posts point to the wisdom of others who have ceased to post during Ramadan.

You're becoming self consumed..

HERMIT fully controls and directs his own comments-
hes passionate and intelligent- and since anonymous couldnt manage an intelligent repost-
(s)he tries to save face by pretending (s)he's some puppetmaster-

hermits just too gracious and mild to blow your flimsy cover

"It is so-o easy to pull your chain.."

Glad you're enjoying yourself; just so you know that I'm probably laughing as much at your childish ignorance as you are at my pomposity...;-)

Regards

A Hermit

New Osama Bin Laden video is available. SCARY!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUiNiB2yVCQ&eurl=

The question is: On the anniversary of 9/11, what message would you like to send religious extremists?

The message is, to the religious extremists in the world's one and only terrorist nation, US_Israel:

Stop your Holy War on Islam.

Here is an excellent post from MASS which I think captures our dilemma perfectly. Serious criminal mistakes were made last century by the UN, Great Britain and the USA: e.g. the Balfour Declaration of 1917 accelerating the illegal and immoral emigration and Zionist infestation of Palestine, and the UN partition of Palestine in 1947 leading to the establishment of the current illegitimate ‘State of Israel’. The question of this century is what are we going to do about it? The UN obviously needs to be restructured to negate the terrorist state of US_Israel’s ability to veto any attempt at a just solution to this crisis.

MASS:

‘The whole world will never see peace as long as the crime of the 20th century is not handled adequately. The legitimate state of Palestine was removed from the world map to be replaced by the illegitimate state of Israel with new immigrants from all over the world. Palestinians, being Moslems or Christians, were kicked out into refugee camps to be replaced by Jews from Europe, Russia, Ethiopia, Poland etc.

Repercussions of this heinous crime are behind all turmoil and bloodshed in the Middle East including Iraq, Lebanon, Palestinian occupied territories, Syria, Iran etc.

The unlimited support of US to Israel has been encouraging the latter to reject all UN resolutions on the Palestinian Issue including Resolution 194 which calls for the return of all Palestinian refugees home. It is time for the US admin to wake up to the real cause of all problems in the area and to resolve this chronic issue in a fair way to all concerned parties immediately. The only feasible solution to this chronic problem is to set up one secular state for all Israelis and Palestinians regardless of their religion to live in peace on all the land of historical Palestine.’

I would only add that we have proven the hard way that Israelis and Palestinians cannot live together. We must evacuate the 5 million illegitimate Jews from Palestine and relocate them to Texas.

A Hermit:

It is so-o easy to pull your chain..

"What's Up With This?"

What's up is called democracy, anonymous; I'm not surprised that a reactionary coward like you doesn't recognize it.

What's the matter? You have a problem with Arabs running for public office? Should there be limits to public service based on race?

You don't agree with their opinions on the Middle East? Should people who disagree with you be barred from running for office or advocating for their opinions?

Which is it, Anonymous Coward; do you want racial segregation or the abridgement of free speech?

And do you ever have any original thoughts, or are you just going to keep cutting and pasting articles that frighten you for some inexplicable reason? `cause I do actually read the newspapers, anonymous, I don't need you to post them here for me.

Regards

A Hermit

P.S. If William Krar's cyanide bomb had been set off in an arena or a theatre it could easily have killed hundreds, if not thousands, of innocent people. What neither he or the Islamist terrorists can do is overturn western democracy. Unless we all do like you have and give in to the fear.

Have I mentioned that I refuse to live in fear? You should try it...

A Hermit:

What's Up With This?

The LIBERAL PARTY of CANADA: A pattern of denial to pro-Palestinian candidates?

The problem here is much bigger than simply the nomination of one person, the implication goes far beyond the rejection of Mr. Corrigan's, Dr. Ayad's and Grace Batchoun's nominations. Many loyal Liberal supporters in the Canadian Arab/Muslim communities are bound to draw the only logical conclusion from this sad episode; that pro Palestinian candidates are not welcome and need not apply."

There are several Arabs running for Liberal nominations in the Ottawa region which also has a large Arab community. It will remains to be seen how the Liberal Party treats these individuals and if the Liberal Party is open to Arabs and Muslims and their concerns over human rights and social justice or if it will continue to pursue an anti-democratic and discriminatory approach when it comes to Arab and Muslim candidates and candidates who are sympathetic the plight of the Palestinians.

If the Liberal Party is not supportive of the legitimate concerns of the Arab and Muslim community in Canada and human rights and international law, then there is no reason for the growing Arab and Muslim community to vote Liberal and every reason for them not to vote Liberal.

http://www.agoracosmopolitan.com/home/Frontpage/2007/09/16/01796.html

In the meantime, can you explain to me why you and so many others wet your pants whenever a Muslim is accused of something like this, but nobody seems too worried about homegrown Christian White Supremacists like Wiliam Krar, for example

Sure!

Had he and his cohorts caused the death of 3000 innocents, I'd pay plenty of attention.

Violence by people of any united ideology tends to direct one's attention to the decrees of their's that incite the masses to hate.

Also, most Christians are not tolerant of hate preached from the pulpit. They know there is nothing spiritual in such doctrines.

Anonymous; Do you know how to read? Did you see my comments about the differences between someone who is mentally unstable and someone who is politically motivates?

In the meantime, can you explain to me why you and so many others wet your pants whenever a Muslim is accused of something like this, but nobody seems too worried about homegrown Christian White Supremacists like Wiliam Krar, for example. Here's a guy caught with cyanide bombs, grenades, pipe bombs, a list of targets and links to people who are still at large and the story doesn't get anything like the kind of attention that one incompetent nut gets if he happens to be a Muslim. There's a double standard at work here, based on race and religion.

And yes, the extremists can be dangerous. I haven't said they shouldn't be dealt with. But there's as much danger in over-reacting as there is is ignoring the problem. That over-reaction is exactly what the terrorists are counting on, and when you fall for it you are playing their game.

I refuse to play their game. I refuse to live in fear and I refuse to be manipulated like that.

Regards

A Hermit

A Hermit:

Better NOT read this:

"The process of settlement [of Islam in the United States] is a "Civilization-Jihadist" process with all the word means. The Ikhwan must understand that all their work in America is a kind of grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and "sabotaging" their miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God's religion is made victorious over all religions. Without this level of understanding, we are not up to this challenge and have not prepared ourselves for Jihad yet. It is a Muslim's destiny to perform Jihad and work wherever he is and wherever he lands until the final hour comes, and there is no escape from that destiny except for those who choose to slack.

The entire 18-page platform outlines a plan for the long haul. It prescribes the Muslim Brotherhood's comprehensive plan to set down roots in civil society. It begins by both founding and taking control of American Muslim organizations, for the sake of unifying and educating the U.S. Muslim community – this to prepare it for the establishment of a global Islamic state governed by sharia.

It sounds like a conspiracy theory out of a bad Hollywood movie – but it's real. Husain Haqqani, head of Boston University's Center for International Relations and a former Islamic radical, confirms that the Brotherhood "has run most significant Muslim organizations in the U.S." as part of the plan outlined in the strategy paper.

The HLF trial is exposing for the first time how the international Muslim Brotherhood – whose Palestinian division is Hamas – operates as a self-conscious revolutionary vanguard in the United States. The court documents indicate that many leading Muslim-American organizations – including the Council on American-Islamic Relations, the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA) and the Muslim American Society – are an integral part of the Brotherhood's efforts to wage jihad against America by nonviolent means.

The Muslim Brotherhood is an affiliation of at least 70 Islamist organizations around the world, all tracing their heritage to the original cell, founded in Egypt in 1928. Its credo: "Allah is our objective. The Prophet is our leader. Quran is our law. Jihad is our way. Dying in the way of Allah is our highest hope." Sayyid Qutb, hanged by the Egyptian government in 1966 as a revolutionary, remains its ideological godfather. His best-known work, Milestones, calls for Muslims to wage violent holy war until Islamic law governs the entire world.

According to a 2004 Chicago Tribune investigation, establishing the Brotherhood in the United States has been a 40-year project that has worked mostly underground – even beneath the notice of many Muslims. Richard Clarke, the former top U.S. national security official, told the Senate in 2003 that the Muslim Brotherhood is the common thread linking terrorist fundraising schemes in the United States – which likely explains why so many mainstream American Muslim organizations were named by the feds as "unindicted co-conspirators" in the HLF trial.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/opinion/columnists/rdreher/stories/DN-dreher_09edi.ART.State.Edition1.4235f88.html

im not trying to be funny mr perkel, but death is pretty final and real.
and id venture that it can be constured as pretty destructive(certainly from the standpoint of the dying, which if you're being realistic, encompasses us all).

so even realism would have as its final result, destruction.

All theistic religions are extreme in that they envision a future of destruction. I have accepted Realism as my path. Reality changed my life. It can Change yours too.

A message from the Church of Reality
"If it's real, we believe in it!"

All theistic religions are extreme in that they envision a future of destruction. I have accepted Realism as my path. Reality changed my life. It can Change yours too.

A message from the Church of Reality
"If it's real, we believe in it!"

All theistic religions are extreme in that they envision a future of destruction. I have accepted Realism as my path. Reality changed my life. It can Change yours too.

A mesage from the Church of reality
"if it real, we believe in it!"

"But this of course makes us ask what will become of the individual."

Daniel, many European countries and Australia are working quickly and quietly to change immigration laws.

Individuals make communities make societal norms make a country. The trend seems to be: individual citizens should have a say over who becomes their neighbor.

I think that more important than the causes and circumstances surrounding the start of WWI, are the events that occurred near the end.

For example the Sykes-Picot agreement of 1916 (from Wikipedia): The Sykes-Picot Agreement of 1916 was a secret understanding between the governments of Britain and France, with the assent of Russia, defining their respective spheres of influence and control in west Asia after the expected downfall of the Ottoman Empire during World War I. The boundaries of this agreement still remain in much of the common border between Syria and Iraq.

Then came Mistake of the Century No. 1, the Balfour Declaration (from Wikipedia): The Balfour Declaration of 1917 (dated November 2, 1917) was a classified formal statement of policy by the British government on the partitioning of the Ottoman Empire in the aftermath of the World War I.

The letter stated the position, agreed at a British Cabinet meeting on October 31, 1917, that the British government supported Zionist plans for a Jewish "national home" in Palestine, with the condition that nothing should be done which might prejudice the rights of existing communities there.

This set us up for Mistake of the Century No. 2, the UN partition of Palestine in 1947 following WWII.

The question of the century now is, how do we correct these two horrendous mistakes?

what a concise and excellent overview daniel

On the subject of world war 1--and correct me if I am wrong as I am just feeling for sense in things here (processes of history)--I read somewhere that although an individual was the "trigger" for world war 1 that the bigger problem was that nations were locked into a series of alliances which resulted in a domino effect...If this reading is correct, individual actions can be put at bay by nations not being locked into such frameworks, but this of course means that they put interests at bay (all sorts of motivations) and work together--but this in turn becomes more difficult the more individuals are empowered by advances in technology, communications, ease of travel, etc.--and in the final analysis we are talking about preventing individuals from having an effect which of course leads to discussions on whether democracy is in fact desirable...Individuals prevented from being considered the reason for wars (or blamed for such by cynical nations seeking advantage) by nations, entities, locking together and preventing individual action from having effect...But this of course makes us ask what will become of the individual.

im in agreement with hermit here-

it was promising to be an interesting discussion delving into the root causes of current events,

hermit has said quite rightly that events do not occur in a vacuum- there are instigating social conditions that allow certain peoples to arise to effect the turns of history-

osama bin laden didnt arise out of obscurity-
and he is certainly a person who has affected all of our lives in a negative way.

i think we can agree on that-
the last post certainly proves that point(although these disconnected anecdotal incidences dont really lend anything to examination- just point out that the problem exists- which has already been established by the question posted itself)

so taken that its a given- (firmly established here i think, unless someone wants to argue about the positive outcomes of bin ladens actions)

by examining the catalyst for these events, we can also try to foresee how to prevent the identified conditions from arising again.

clearly the war i iraq has only served to isolate and weaken america in the world perspective, where we had a worldwide opportunity to engage the rest of the world and find a solution- instead we let that nrainless cowboy trick us into fighting his daddys war for him-
(maybe someday george dubya's therapist will write a book and well discover it was all dubya trying to get daddys approval)
not only that- it has actually set the scene to INCREASE terrorist activity.

so its a no-brainer that its a failed policy whose mud we are trying to rise up from now.

maybe we could share some intelligent ideas about these issues, instead of personal comments.

peace

A Hermit.

More mixed up mentally ill "goofballs". Right?

"When a South Carolina police officer pulled over two Egyptian engineering students for speeding last month, he noticed one trying to put away a laptop computer.

That computer contained a 12-minute video showing how to take apart a remote-control toy car and reassemble the wiring to make it into a remote detonation device, a federal prosecutor said Friday. The video's narrator, a graduate student at the University of South Florida, said the device helped "to save one who wants to be a martyr for another battle," the prosecutor said.

Investigators seized the laptop at the traffic stop. They later found that the most recently viewed files included videos showing Qassam rockets being fired along with visits to Web sites relating to Hamas and videos involving martyrs. It was not clear whether those files were being viewed as the two students drove.

Federal prosecutor Jay Hoffer described the laptop's contents during a bond hearing Friday afternoon for defendant Youssef Megahed. It was Megahed who was in the passenger seat with the computer on his lap when the police officer stopped the car for speeding Aug. 4 in Berkeley County, South Carolina.

Megahed and Ahmed Mohamed were indicted Aug. 31 in Tampa and charged with illegally transporting explosive materials. Mohamed also is charged with teaching and demonstrating how to make an explosive device. The video was uploaded onto YouTube, but later removed by the Web site, Hoffer said.

During their search of the car last month, investigators also found PVC pipe in the trunk filled with an explosive mixture of potassium nitrate, Karo syrup and kitty litter. Officers also found safety fuse, bullets and a mostly-full 5-gallon can of gas.

Hoffer called the potassium nitrate mixture a "low grade explosive."

Megahed's rented Tampa home (a house previously rented to Sami Al-Arian's "think tank") was searched by FBI agents. They found more material used in the explosive mixture, Hoffer said. In addition, they found a remote control toy boat still in its box. At a separate storage shed rented by Megahed, agents found a .22-caliber rifle and have uncovered evidence he tried to buy a Beretta handgun.

"The United States views this defendant as a danger," Hoffer said.

This was held up for moderation; too many links I suspect, so at the risk of committing the sin of double posting, I'll post it without the links...

Mary Cunningham:

1) Although I sometimes forget to put my name at the head of a comment I always sign "Regards; A Hermit". I post pseudonymously, but never anonymously.

2) I never use all caps.

3) I suggested Tuchman as a good introduction to the subject of WWI and it's causes, not as the final definitive word. In any case, although her works are more popular in nature there is nothing wrong with the accounts she provides and most historians, I think, would recognize the value of her work and even consider her a colleague. (For example, consider Edward James Mills' review of "Practicing History"... you can look it up on findarticles-dot-com

4) I suppose I could have recommend something like Francis March's "History of the World War" (a first edtition of which I am looking at as I type this) but having been published in 1919 it's considerably older than Tuchman's works (and according to you old books are unreliable, right?) and it's a little harder to find a copy. Given Mike's evident lack of reading skills and ignorance of the subject I thought it best to start him off on something easier.

5) You still haven't addressed the point I was making to begin with. So let's try it again; Was the First world War caused solely by the actions of one assassin, or were there underlying causes which were actually more important? And what do you suppose those causes might have been?

6)If you want to debate a point with me you'll have to do better than misguided ad hominem observations about someone I've referenced, although I am pleased to see that we've been able to exchange several comments without you comparing me to a Nazi. I guess that's an improvement, but you still have some work to do.

Do get back to me if you have anything of substance to contribute to the discussion.

Regards

A (pedantic, and still very amused) Hermit

P.S. You can download March and Beamish at gutenberg-dot-org or read it at google books.

‘I refuse to live in fear."

So please -don't tell me the truth. I'd rather pretend these "incidents" are random..

Mary Cunningham doesn't really support our Dear Leader's disastrous misadventure in Iraq.

She is just too thick to see the basic theme of A Hermit’s post:

‘I refuse to live in fear. And I will not allow the hysterical fearmongering that surrounds incidents like the one in Dearborn be used as a justification for wider violence against Muslims in general or for policies which violate our basic civil liberties.’

Dear Hermit aka Anon who LOVES CAPITALS,

Barbara Tuchman was a journalist who never studied history at any university.

Barbara Tuchman never trained as a professional historian nor did any 'primary' research. Barbara Tuchman never examined any primary documents in German because she did not speak German.

Barbara Tuchman wrote about European history but was not fluent in German.

Barbara Tuchman did not specialize in any particular historical period but just went "where the spirit moved her."

The prize won by Ms Tuchman for her'European history' was open only to Americans.

The works of Barbara Tuchman still in print are not on the reading syllabus of the European history depts. of any accredited university.

Barbara Tuchman never taught history at any accredited university.

Now I might read Ms Tuchman but I would never cite her, and certainly not USE CAPS (but then I never do).

The question is: On the anniversary of 9/11, what message would you like to send religious extremists?

The message is, to the religious extremists in the world's one and only terrorist nation, US_Israel:

Stop your Holy War on Islam.

Vacate the occupied Muslim holy land in Palestine and Iraq.

Vacate the 5 Million jews from Palestine and bring them to Texas.

Don’t worry so much, you will love Texas. We will partition it so that your half is contiguous, while the other half is divided into separated quarters.

You will have the prime real estate including the Dallas-Fort Worth and Crawford areas.

You will have control of the fresh water supply.

You can keep your Army, Navy, Air Force and nuclear weapons. We will back you up with the full power of the world’s last remaining super power.

We will immediately stop all federal aid to the native population, while continuing your $3 B annual aid.

Feel free to launch all the settlements that you wish in the native half’s real estate.

Assassinate the opposition leadership to create chaos on the other side.

See, it will just be a Grand Old Party.

I’m sure that you will get along famously with our Dear Leader and World Class Hypocrite in the White House.

Please note:

Do not disrupt a 911 Memorial on a San Francisco campus or a Red Headed Woman and a very large Gay Black Man carrying his Chihuahua may get pissed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIDK9DU6aa4

This message is not for Islamic terrorists; rather this message is for western infidels who still seem did not get to know their actual enemy. This article below will help recognize real enemy!

What is Islamic Terrorism and
How Could It Be Defeated?
by Syed Kamran Mirza

Syed_mirza@hotmail.com

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction." (Blaise Pascal, mathematician, 1670)

"It would be nave to ignore in Islam a deep thread of intolerance toward unbelievers."-Andrew Sullivan

What is Islamic terrorism?

Islamic terrorism is the divine duty of pure Muslims for which they feel proud instead of feeling remorse. Pure Muslims do not call it terrorism they only call it Islamic Jihad against the infidel West. Killing non-Muslims are sacred duty of every devout Muslim for which Allah repeatedly commanded (in Qur'an) and declared unlimited reward in the after life. Muslims those who read Qur'an and understand it well always believe in the Islamic 'global agenda' that Islam has a sacred and mandatory God given duty to spread Islamic message (Din-e-Islam) to all the inhabitants of the world. Wars in Iraq or Afghanistan have nothing to do with Islamic terrorism. In American soil 9/11 attacks did happen before Iraq or Afghanistan wars. Please don't forget that.

Islam is the only religion which divides the whole world into two spheres: Land of Warfare "Darul harb" (non-Islamic nations) and "Darul Islam" (Land of Peace), and encourages the Land of "Peace" to fight against the Land of Warfare until it is completely "subdued" and peace is established in the entire world. Islam is the only religion that largely forbids the free practice of other religions in its midst. Saudi Arabia, the cradle of Islam never allows religion other than Islam to practice in their land. Their ulterior motive is to convert and bring entire mankind under the fold of Islam, the "Only true religion of Allah." To this end-two main groups are working very hard. These two groups are: (a) Militant/radical Mullahs (whom we know as the terrorists), (b) Educated/elite Western residing true believing Muslims (Muslims belonging to the ummatic groups in the West such as: AMC, CAIR, ICNA, ISNA, NABIC etc). Here we can exclude gullible God fearing innocent Muslims (group-C), who do not read Qur'an and Sunnah). But because those gullible majority Muslims also believe in the same religion Islam and do not object to pray in congregations behind those militant mullahs-Islamic terrorists get tons of support from all Muslims.

Causes of Terrorism:

Purely and solely-the real motivation behind the terrorism (Islamic Jihad) is the teachings of Qur'an and Sunnah. Western politicians erroneously and perhaps ignorantly call it "evil or distorted ideology." This is absolutely wrong statement by the politically correct western politicians. That ideology is nothing but the ideology of pure Islam, which are the holy teachings of the Qur'an. Therefore, Qur'an and Sunnah (prophetic instructions) are the true foundations of Islamic terrorism. Palestinian problems, wars of Iraq and Afghanistan etc. are only a plea to wage Islamic Jihad. Poverty or frustrations are not the cause of terrorism, because poverty and frustrations also exists amongst millions of poor people from other religions. Will any poor Hindu or a Buddhist bother to commit suicide to kill innocent Westerners?

We know conversion to other religion is a common phenomenon throughout the world. Many people convert to Islam or Christianity. But only Muslim converts turn into terrorists or Taliban. The Western born terrorists like John Walker Lindh, Zachariah Moussawi, Jose Padilla or James Uzzama etc. were converts and happened to be very pure and devout Muslims. If these guys were converted to Hinduism or Buddhism, they would never be the terrorists.

Poisonous tonic will cause poisonous effect whoever drinks it. Should we not analyze the tonic to determine the harmful ingredients, which causes the poisonous effects? Or should we start blaming those drinkers (instead of the tonic) for the ill effect of the tonic?

Likewise, whoever reads Qur'an and try to follow with its literal (verbatim) meanings, immediately becomes a bad human being (terrorist) for the society and for the nations. Wherever and whenever Islamic Shariaat (Laws of Qur'an and Sunnah) is being imposed, human misery ensues immediately. Is it not the time to analyze to determine exactly what causes this misery? Or, should we keep on blaming those hapless people who only try to follow the Qur'an and Sunnah with its literal instruction? Time has arrived to identify the real enemy of the Western civilization.

Western intelligence must not overlook 'Mosques-Islamic centers-Madrashas' connections to all Islamic terrorists in 100% time of their terrorists operation and success. If those 'Mosques-Islamic centers-Madras' are the so-called radicalized Islam then what is the real Islam? It's true that all Muslims are not terrorists, but all terrorists are pure Muslims as per the Qur'an.

Quite obviously, the cause of Islamic fanaticism and zealotry is rooted in the Qur'an and Sunnah (Hadiths). Terrorists like Osama bin Laden and others are the victims of Qur'anic scriptural teachings. Here are some Qur'anic teachings (out of hundreds), which those devout Muslims swallow every day (five times) so passionately only to become brainwashed in the Mosques and Islamic centers for committing suicide bombings in the midst of innocent gatherings.

Quran-5:51- "O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors. They are but friends and protectors to each other-.."

Quran-4:78: "Where ye are, death will find you, even if ye are in Towers, built up strong and tall" (Perhaps Twin towers was meant here?)

Quran-3:85, "If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good)."

Quran-9:29, Fight those who believe neither in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book (Christians and Jews), until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Lives of any human are precious and human beings definitely love their own life more than anything in the world. Nobody is ready to die or destroy his own life even for millions of dollars (except perhaps by Prophet Abraham). But a simple minded (otherwise a good man) but fanatically blind believer of religion Islam can eagerly give his life with a smile on his face. Why? Because he simply learned that if he dies for Islam, or killed others (infidels) for Islam-he will be given a sure suite in heavens of Allah, where he will enjoy plenty of hurries for unlimited sex, delicious foods forever and ever with no interruption, what so ever. This may sound silly to me or to any intelligent human being. But, this is the one and only truth to a blind-faith believer of the so-called holy book Qur'an, indeed! The Qur'an is the center of Jihadi inspiration.

It's a greatest lie to say that Qur'an prohibits suicide! That is the suicide (Qur'an referring) to kill one-self only for no good reason or out of frustrations. But to die (to kill the kaffirs) for the cause of Islam is mandatory good deeds for the believers, which has been directed 100 times with plenty of rewards in the Holy Qur'an.

In Amsterdam, Netherlands-Mohammed Bouyeri, the killer of filmmaker Theo Van Gogh confessed his guilt and showed no remorse for his dastardly act of Islamic slaughter. During court trial he made following remarks: "I don't feel your pain", he told the victim's mother. "Because I was driven by my religious conviction." He also said, "If I were released and would have the chance to do it again-I would do exactly the same thing." At one point he said to the victim's mother, "I have to admit I don't have sympathy for you. I can't feel for you because I think you are a non-believer."

How could we stop Islamic Terrorism?

Yes, Islamic terrorism could be stopped if the west be united and take the right measures. West must not weigh Islamic terrorism lightly. This is a more dangerous and deadlier phenomenon than communism. It took fifty years to defeat communism. But it may take only twenty years if the West takes the right course. But the menace may continue to grow if the West follows the fruitless policy of appeasing the Muslims, disseminating patronizing statements like: "Poisonous or perverted interpretation of peaceful Islam". Terrorists are not misinterpreting Islam; rather they are interpreting Islam very correctly. Islam is like cancer and Qur'an is the carcinogen, which causes cancer. We must know our enemy. We must fight the cause and not the symptoms. Unless scientists can subdue the HIV virus, the cause of AIDS, scientists can never control AIDS.

Spending billions of dollars in strong security or democratization tactics will not help. Sweet appeasing talks also will do no good. Almost 80% of world Muslims does support Osama's ideology in their hearts. They only talk false sympathy in front of Westerners to please Western govt. But when inside their house, they sympathize with those suicide bombers very much. In every suicide bombings when Western cities are in chaos, peoples die, and Western economy is in shambles-most Muslims all over the world gloat in their hearts.

The West must remember that as of now-no Islamic government, or any famous Islamic Imams or Mullahs have ever issued fatwa condemning Osama's barrage of suicide bombings. Just for writing a controversial novel Salman Rushdie was sentenced to death. As of now no Muslim country sentenced Osama to death. We must ask ourselves why?

Best way to solve Islamic terrorism:

Supreme enemy Islamic Arab imperialistic ideology must be fought in three fronts:

A. Enemy must be defeated with iron fist by waging all out war against Islamic terrorists all over the world. The West (Europe and America) must be united and declare war against Islamists. President Bush must issue personal letters to all government heads of Muslim world to cooperate, or face economic embargo. The West must ask all Muslim Governments to cooperate honestly and actively by issuing fatwa's against terrorists. It's not enough to say, "We despise terrorism", but must act to stop this madness by strongly disassociating with the Islamists, isolating them, arresting them, and imprisoning them without any mercy. All governments of the Muslim world must impose a strict ban on all Madrashas (religious schools) and terrorist organization formed by Islamic mullahs.

B. All Muslims living in the Muslim nations must condemn terrorists and they must stop any association with those Mullahs and Islamic Imams who condone Islamic terrorism. They must not pray behind those Imams/mullahs who incite Islamic hatreds, and they must isolate them socially and politically. All Western living gullible Muslims must cooperate with the Western intelligence (like FBI, CIA) and provide them all sorts of information about militant Muslim's activity. Or face the backlash of host country.

C. The West must fight the Islam ideologically. That is the West must form a multi-national committee to investigate, scrutinize, and extract the poisonous teachings of Qur'an, which do transform a simple young human into a monster. Those scholars must find out what those Muslim mullahs/Imams teach young Muslim students in the Madrashas and other religious schools all over the world. Their findings must be submitted to the governments and published in the newspapers. Open criticisms and debates of Qur'an and Islam must be permitted by all nations.

I am positive, within 10/20 years Islamic suicide bomber's madness will be evaporated for good. If we fail to take positive actions narrated above-our civilization will perish. Killing some terrorists, arresting and killing Osama bin Laden or spending billions of dollars to establish democracy in the Middle East will solve nothing. Because, to solve the terrorist problem, we must destroy the ultimate machine (Islam), which do create terrorists.

A Hermit and other readers:

There may be more to this.

I found Zorkot's (other) website:

http://www.zorkot.org/

Enter, take a look and educate yourself.

Oh, one more point, anonymous; don't rush to judgement; we have due process and the presumption of innocence for a reason:

http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1172122007

since the subject that took this turn was one inept goofball with a gun and a non-event, and since the subject is actually 911- heres a remarkable story about how one man had a POSITIVE effect in a historical way. i just watched c-span and listened to the last man to leave the twin towers, the undisputed hero of 911-
a man who literally saved hundreds of lives and led the firemen and aided their abilty to help by unlocking all of the doors to the fire escapes-

his name is WILLIAM RODRIGUEZ- and his is the most extraordinary story to come out of that tragic day.

his eyewitness account of events that transpired differ considerably from what we have been told is the cause, he testified for hours and hours before the 911 committee- but his testimony has been taken off record.

if you google his name you'll find lots and lots of sites-

hes a janitor who worked for 20 years in the twin towers- and is responsible for saving hundreds of people that day.

why dont we all know his name?
hes the biggest hero of 911!
http://www.911forthetruth.com/

Well my Anonymous friend, there's two points to make here. First of all, as I think I just pointed out to you, (see if you can get hold of the idea this time) there's a difference between someone who is mentally ill and someone who is politically motivated.

Secondly, for every article you cut and paste about a suspected Muslim terrorist I can probably cut and paste an example of a nominally Christian or Hindu or even Buddhist example. None of which has any bearing on my initial point, which is that the actions of one mentally unstable person is not cause for the kind of over-reaction we so often see.

All this relates back to my initial comment here. I refuse to live in fear. And I will not allow the hysterical fearmongering that surrounds incidents like the one in Dearborn be used as a justification for wider violence against Muslims in general or for policies which violate our basic civil liberties.

Regards

A Hermit

A Hermit:

"And one mentally ill person is very different from a political threat like terrorism. Seems obvious to me..."

If we could only figure out these poor mixed-up mentally ill persons. It looks like they are only trying to have some fun running their own websites. And before you know it -they're arrested and being hauled of to jail. Oh A Hermit, A Hermit, what shall we do?

QUEBEC MAN ARRESTED/ TERROR PLOT

The RCMP said Thursday it has arrested a 35-year-old Quebec man in connection with an online threat to bomb targets outside Canada.

The Mounties said Said Namouh was arrested on conspiracy charges Wednesday morning in Maskinonge, Que., northeast of Montreal.

RCMP confirmed what Austrian officials said earlier today -- that the Quebec man was the fourth suspect in connection with an online threat against Austria and Germany.

"He was plotting to explode (a device) outside of Canada,'' RCMP spokesperson Cpl. Elaine Lavergne told the Canadian Press.

"We want to reassure people that the investigation being carried out has never found a direct threat to Canada."

Austrian officials said earlier that three suspects -- two men and a woman, all Austrian citizens in their 20s of Arab origin -- were arrested in connection with a video that surfaced in March.

The three allegedly threatened in the video to attack the two countries unless they withdrew their personnel from Afghanistan.

"The allegations are that these individuals were al Qaeda sympathizers," Canada's Public Safety Minister Stockwell Day told CTV News on Thursday.

"And that the things that they were planning, both with explosives and other means, the allegation is that this could have led to a tragic incident. We congratulate our intelligence and security forces for being able to move quickly along with other agencies to stop this from happening."

Namouh is expected to appear in a Montreal courtroom on Friday morning.

Austria's Interior Ministry spokesperson Rudolf Gollia told the Associated Press that Austrian and Canadian authorities have worked closely together for several weeks, and that it appeared the man arrested in Canada was planning to leave the country.

Canadian officials released few details about Namouh Thursday. And Day would not go into further detail or speculate on how important the Canadian connection may have been to the overall plot.

Senator Colin Kenny, chairman of the Senate standing committee on national security and defence, said the arrest is a sign Canada's anti-terrorism initiatives are working.

"The arrests tell you that they're clearly taking action,'' he told CP. "If the arrest hadn't taken place and this guy left the country, there would be a problem somewhere."

Austrian Interior Minister Guenther Platter told reporters Wednesday there was no discernible plot in the works to carry out an attack in Austria. But he said the prime suspect looked into acquiring explosives.

Platter said in televised remarks late Thursday the prime Austrian suspect had "very close" Internet contact with the man arrested in Canada.

Austrian authorities said they had the three suspects under surveillance for months and arrested them after it appeared they were preparing to leave the country.

Gollia said the prime suspect wanted to leave the country in the coming days to go on a honeymoon trip with his new wife, the female suspect in the trio.

Also Thursday, the SITE Intelligence Group, which monitors al Qaeda messages, said one of the three suspects arrested in Vienna was a leader of the Global Islamic Media Front -- an al-Qaeda propaganda group increasingly tied to terrorism operations.

Gollia said authorities have identified the 22-year-old prime suspect as operator of the Global Islamic Media Front's website for German-speaking countries.

Authorities said the prime suspect travelled to Iraq in 2003 and was also the head of an Islamic youth group in Austria.

"Yeah, his religion made him crazy..."

Cho Seung-Hui said he wanted to "die like Jesus Christ." Did his religion make him crazy? Or did the madness come from somewhere else?

I'm no fan of religion, but I don't think it makes people crazy. I think it's far more likely that people like Cho and Zorkot (and others like them...Buford Furrow, for another nominally Christian example) are mentally ill to begin with. Their delusions may find an outlet in their respective religions, but that doesn't mean the religion made them sick.

And one mentally ill person is very different from a political threat like terrorism. Seems obvious to me...

Regards

A Hermit

MANDY says :

uh..rick?

do you know what a troll is?

a small, bald, cranky being that lives in a cave...

-------

I must protest this characterization; I'm not that small...>;-}

A Hermit

He was living with his parents and having behavioral problems..

The Dearborn Jihadist's local news informs us:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIENd4P3oC8&eurl=

Yeah, his religion made him crazy. The FBI has his computer. If you have checked out his internet site -you know he and his jihadist friends (of which there are many) are toast.

Barbara Wertheim Tuchman (January 30, 1912 – February 6, 1989) was an American HISTORIAN and author, and became best known for The Guns of August, a history of the prelude and first month of World War I.

Tuchman was the daughter of the banker Maurice Wertheim and granddaughter of Henry Morgenthau Sr., Woodrow Wilson's Ambassador to Turkey. She received her BA from Radcliffe College in 1933 and worked as a journalist for a number of years before turning to writing books.

As an author, Tuchman focused on producing popular history. Her clear, dramatic storytelling covered topics as diverse as the 14th century and World War I, and sold millions of copies.

SHE WON THE PULITZER PRIZE TWICE

Barbara Wertheim Tuchman (January 30, 1912 – February 6, 1989) was an American HISTORIAN and author, and became best known for The Guns of August, a history of the prelude and first month of World War I.

Tuchman was the daughter of the banker Maurice Wertheim and granddaughter of Henry Morgenthau Sr., Woodrow Wilson's Ambassador to Turkey. She received her BA from Radcliffe College in 1933 and worked as a journalist for a number of years before turning to writing books.

As an author, Tuchman focused on producing popular history. Her clear, dramatic storytelling covered topics as diverse as the 14th century and World War I, and sold millions of copies.

rick. i see.

a troll is anyone who disagrees with you..

gmab.

MARY- what possible bearing on the validity of anything does the age of a book constitute?

if im not mistaken, you are a practicing catholic and your own book is roughly 2000 years old.

that has got to be the most superficial argument against a point on these boards.

i have never heard the argument that knowledge has an expiration date.

whether you're aware of it or not, your attacking the source of hermit's point has motivated me to google barbara tuchman- when i would have surely just skimmed past it otherwise.

MANDY says :

uh..rick?

do you know what a troll is?

a small, bald, cranky being that lives in a cave...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

RICK says:

That's your definition Mandy.

Mine is morons who see no problem with our Dear Leader's trumped up excuses for invading a sovereign country, slaughtering thousands of innocents, and driving millions of families into refugee status.

Thanks for the support Rick; I was almost crushed by Little Mary Sunshine's rejection of Tuchman as a good introduction to the subject of the first World War. What do those Pulitzer Prize people know about writing anyway?

Tell you what Mary; read Tuchman's books, (she was a historian as well as a journalist, by the way; her Honours Thesis was on the "moral justification of the British Empire" if you're interested in reading something a little more challenging than the average blog comment) then get back to me and explain why anything I've said here was incorrect instead of tossing around more of your gratuitous little insult comments. You have no idea what I have or haven't read (as a point of interest I've actually game-played the entire conflict at both the strategic and operational level; strictly as an amateur, true, but I'll put my knowledge of the subject up against yours or Mike's any day) and more importantly you haven't addressed the point I was making.

Go ahead and take a crack at it, Mary; please explain how the First World War came about; was it solely because of a single act by a single anarchist, or do you think maybe there was a wee bit more to it?

I breathlessly await what I'm sure will be a carefully thought out and unfailingly polite reply...;-)

Regards

A (very amused) Hermit

uh..rick?

do you know what a troll is?

a small, bald, cranky being that lives in a cave...

A Hermit,

Never mind the Trolls A Hermit. Your point makes perfect sense.

These folks just think it is perfectly AOK to blame the invasion and occupation of Iraq on bin Laden and 9/11.

Sorry for the double post...FYI I used preview twice & the preview function duplicated the post.

I see A Hermit running his usual gamut of emotions: from scorn to condecension and back again. Amazing from someone who actually doesn't see the incongruity of using a forty-year-old book by a popular journalist (not a historian) as backup for his view; then mistakenly charges that any who disagree with him is stupid!

Hermit...know thyself!

A Hermit:

You are digging yourself into A H@LE. Maybe you should just STFU?

By their book recommedations ye shall know them..

Mike: as the two books on WWI recommended by our hermit friend were written in 1962 and 1966 respectively,neatly demonstrating AH has read no work about that period written during the past forty years, and given that both books were written by Tuchman, a journalist not a historian, whose popular history was--shall we say--erratic, I would not put much credence in *anything* Canadian Hermit says about WWI.

(Of course, I put do not put much credence in anything Hermit says, WWI or otherwise, but that is another contention.)

By their book recommedations ye shall know them..

Mike: as the two books on WWI recommended by our hermit friend were written in 1962 and 1966 respectively,neatly demonstrating AH has read no work about that period written during the past forty years, and given that both books were written by Tuchman, a journalist not a historian, whose popular history was--shall we say--erratic, I would not put much credence in *anything* Canadian Hermit says about WWI.

(Of course, I put do not put much credence in anything Hermit says, WWI or otherwise, but that is another contention.)

"In A Hermit's last two posts: his thoughts are not just disorganised, they are opposed..."

Please do me the courtesy of actually reading my comments a little more carefully Mike; there's no contradiction there. The point is that it's not one unstable nut with a gun who causes the war; it's the paranoids, the politicians and the warmongers who use that one nut as an excuse to do what they wanted to do all along. The nut himself is at best a minor threat; the real problem is with the people who use that nut's behaviour to terrorize, bully and manipulate public opinion into supporting far worse violence.

Here's a link you might find helpful, Mikey...I'd be happy to help you with the big words if you have trouble.

http://readingvideos.com/category.aspx?categoryID=3

Regards

A Hermit

Oops! Sorry CTCL, I have dislexia. I confused you with CONCERNED AMERICAN.

Oops! Sorry CTCL, I have dislexia. I confused you with CONCERNED AMERICAN.

CTCL,

How do you reconcile the following, your post on the Pagan thread, with your constant attacks on my friend Victoria and most religions?

'All religions need to learn to respect each other. (like that will ever happen). Just like people on this message board need to respect each other. Knowledge is power and it seems a lot of people are powerless because they are spouting slander without knowing a thing.'

This morning A Hermit defends his view that:

"one unstable goof with a gun does not make a war"

In A Hermit's last two posts: his thoughts are not just disorganised, they are opposed.. First he has the anon poster "bleating" and misinformed. By his next post -anon's comments are "apt" and blah.blah.blah..

I think anon's post was brilliant. The A in Hermit's name does mean A-H@LE and he'll be fine as soon as he gets his head unstuck...

As a Gnostic christian, I don't practice the imprecatory black magick was that other christians do. We don't pray or wish or imagine the suffering of others.

Such are wicked ways of the children of Abraham, and their God, Saklas.

Actually that WWI analogy is rather apt; the overreaction to a single terrorist act is used an excuse to launch a military campaign which had been simmering on the back burner for at least a decade, sold to the Austrian and German people as a quick, easy war which would avenge the outrage and restore order and sanity to the world turned instead into a vicious quagmire which dragged on for years.

Who was it that said "history doesn't repeat itself, but sometimes it rhymes..."?

Regards

A Hermit

An Anonymous Commenter bleats: "The event, known as the Assassination in Sarajevo, was the trigger of World War I." "

There were a few other factors at work there, my anonymous friend. I recommend Barbara Tuchman's excellent books "The Proud Tower" and "The Guns of August" for your introduction to the history of the first world war. It wasn't one nut with a gun (or a bomb, actually) that launched that war, it was a host of "serious sensible" patriots in military uniforms and frock coats on all sides who believed in the rightness of their respective countries' destiny as world leaders and thought that a quick, decisive military campaign would set things right.

Oh, they all had God on their side, too.

Regards

A Hermit

Ramadan in the Christian perspective:

Poor Jesus, he had to deal with a "ugly wingie talking flying fictional thingie" for/after forty days and forty nights" before his "pwtfft" arrived.

And he fasted in the desert not some cool cave with attending wives and a "pwtfft" to keep him company when the wives were not around.

Hi Victoria,

How goes the Ramadan observance?

We love you Baby.

Thank you CABY BYRNE for the very wise council.

ANON and A HERMIT,

GAYLE says:

Hi RICK,

'All this (Dearborn) incident (after London/Glasgow) is confirming is that Muslim Doctors are BUTT-STUPID. Be careful choosing your medical professional.'

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I may have been wrong; it's rare, but it happens. This may not be a random incident, but tied in with the London/Glasgow incident.

It does show that doctors in training do not make competent insurgents. The resistance will soon learn to utilize streetwise, battle hardened, snipers trained in Baghdad and Faluja, of which there are many, in future attacks.

Having grown up in a southern, primarily Baptist environment, I have known religious extremism all of my life, and it was not Muslim. It was friends, neighbors, fellow church members, politicians, and others like me who found comfort in religious extremism that condoned the concepts of racial superiority to the point of not recognizing the humanity of all people. Sadly I have found that no racial, ethnic, or religious group has a corner on prejudice and fear as a munipulative power. My message to my neighbors and others, my message to others who find comfort in religious extremism is simply that it is a road to self-distruction, and yes we will take others down with us...perhaps the most significant damage religious extremism is doing is mentally shaping the generations of children for years to come...the future warriors of God, sometimes called patriotism.

In a story that has gotten amazingly little national publicity, a medical student at Wayne State University named Houssein Zorkot was arrested in Dearborn Saturday night, dressed for combat and armed with an AK-47:

Zorkot, a third-year medical student at Wayne State University, was allegedly armed with an AK-47 assault rifle and dressed in black clothing with camouflage paint covering his face when he was arrested Saturday in Hemlock Park.

According to police, Zorkot was observed attempting to leave the park in a black SUV after officers had received reports of a man carrying a rifle in the area.

Houssein Zorkot maintained a web site "Welcome to the Land of Resistance and Freedom". The organization of the site is odd. The content of Zorkot's site is mostly about Lebanon. It isn't clear to me whether Zorkot is a Lebanese immigrant or only of Lebanese ancestry; further study of the site might answer the question. The site includes photos of his trip to Lebanon in 2007. One of the pictures shows Zorkot posing with a poster of Nasrallah, the Secretary-General of Hezbollah:

The site praises Nasrallah and Hezbollah, for example:

Hizbollah is not a terrorist organization! Hizbollah is a national resistance organization. Hizbollah protects Lebanon.

Zorkot's site is full of military and Islamic imagery. One page is a photo gallery titled Life In America Photos. This is the most recent picture in the sequence; if the gallery information is correct, it was posted on September 8, 2007--the day of Zorkot's arrest:

Saying -My Personal Jihad in the US

It seems rather clear that a medical student who is loyal to Hezbollah set out to commit terrorist acts against Americans in the days leading up to September 11. How odd that so far, at least, this hasn't become a major news story.

This site has a video of local coverage:

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2007/09/018449.php

4th watch

is there a moral position anywhere at all? and will it stay so for a while? the whole existence is in a state of change. this much is obvious.

i do not belong to one place or one race or one religion. mine is a universal existence beyond any time or place. your question is best addressed by those who live in boxes.

what we do to each other has nothing to do with god but everything to do with ourselves. we are gods of our own destiny and our destiny as people of this world is ONE. therefore in my existence, we are ONE.

whatever we do to each other we do it to ourselves.

i merely try to point this out to everyone who cares to see the results of what we do to each other based on policies of exclusivity. me US, you Arab. me christian you jew, muslim or whatever. think inclusive regardless of boundaries, which again are man-made.

this is how i have freed myslef from all religions and accept all and everyone, not only in my home but also in my heart. i have touched and seen ONEness.

if religions and nationalities can not bring humanity together in peace, then what is the use of them? however, i do not mean to demean anyone here but to have people ponder on their own beliefs and may be take a fresh look at old scriptures which were written thousands of years ago. yet, amongst all that are the seeds of unity, respect, tolerance, love and peace. today we need all of these and more of it and less of hatred, military adventure, wars, bombs, secrecy, bullying, mass theft, hero worshiping, etc.

if there is any moral issue in what i say here is perhaps i hope that i find one person who thinks like myself and then act upon what we say in our own lives to touch those who we come across in our daily lives.

"you may say i'm a dreamer,
but am not the only one.
i hope someday you join us,
and the world would live as ONE."

Ahmed,

Your tirades against the legitimate state of Israel sound like the rantings of the current leader of the Third Axis of Evil.

Hmmm and again what about Kuwait, Kosovo and Bosnia. Again I ask, who were we meddling with/saving there?

And again what would the Russian Communists have done with the Muslim world had the USA not won the Cold War? Bahrain would no doubt have become known as Stalrain!!!!

And again and again you fail to recognize the flaws in Islam. You know them well and what do you plan to do about them before the USA must interfere once again?? And again as a reminder, the Japanese militarists had to learn their lesson the hard way. I wonder if the Japanese emperor hallucinated about "pwtfft"s????

Ahmed,
What’s the moral position in the Middle East? Is there one?
Until America is threatened as she was by the (Confederacy, Japans Imperial Army, or The Third Reich) neither this country nor the majority of its people feel obliged to assume such a position. In the interim we meddle in places like Korea,Vietnam,Afganistan and Iraq . In none of these latter conflicts were,or are, we confronted with the possibility of the United States ceasing to exist as a free country as was so in those earlier wars.
Only when a country or movement of people truly threatens America’s existence (such as its access to oil) will this Nation move against others with a true conviction.
We are not there --- yet.

Concerned

The UN can't do anything without USA approval. look at the umpteen UN resolutions against Israel and the ones deleted coz of US. None of it is worth the paper its written on coz they will never be acted upon. Yes, if it were against any Muslim country, the whole Western world would gang up led by the main bully US of A.

As for palestine, it was cut up without any input by the local people as if they did not exist. The Zionist controls your government. face up otherwise you will dig yourself further into quagmires and the America Enterprise, ADL, AIPAc will keep shoving anti-islamic mantras for you to repeat.

Which Islamic country had soldiers forcing their way into other lands for the last 100 years. What OBL does is in direct retaliation against US camps in his homeland of Saudi Arabia. He has used religion as his weapon to shore up support but you would be mistaken to believe that 1.3 billion Muslims accept OBL as their spiritual leader. He has been very vocal about his causes long before he was a terrorist, except your leaders didn't want to know as such a provocation suited them. Look at PNAC and you know why.

lets us just agree that violent confrontations does not serve humanity whether it comes from Bush or OBL. They truly deserve each other but the blood of the innocent must never be spelt for their causes.

it is easy for you and others to blame Islam and ignore the root cause of your government involvement in the ME whilst you believe you are the saviour of the world. That is very dangerous. No wonder we have 3 million Iraqi refugees not to mention the dead, as your goal for democracy. Notice it was first 911, then regime change, then genocidal Saddam, then freedom, then terrorism, and now we broke it so we must fix it. Carry on making it up whilst you cause havock. Morality means nothing to you but you can preach.

Act like an ostrich if you want but know that millions of world people understand what I say. I know I can't convince you since your mind is set in concrete. So be it.

Concerned

The UN can't do anything without USA approval. look at the umpteen UN resolutions against Israel and the ones deleted coz of US. None of it is worth the paper its written on coz they will never be acted upon. Yes, if it were against any Muslim country, the whole Western world would gang up led by the main bully US of A.

As for palestine, it was cut up without any input by the local people as if they did not exist. The Zionist controls your government. face up otherwise you will dig yourself further into quagmires and the America Enterprise, ADL, AIPAc will keep shoving anti-islamic mantras for you to repeat.

Which Islamic country had soldiers forcing their way into other lands for the last 100 years. What OBL does is in direct retaliation against US camps in his homeland of Saudi Arabia. He has used religion as his weapon to shore up support but you would be mistaken to believe that 1.3 billion Muslims accept OBL as their spiritual leader. He has been very vocal about his causes long before he was a terrorist, except your leaders didn't want to know as such a provocation suited them. Look at PNAC and you know why.

lets us just agree that violent confrontations does not serve humanity whether it comes from Bush or OBL. They truly deserve each other but the blood of the innocent must never be spelt for their causes.

it is easy for you and others to blame Islam and ignore the root cause of your government involvement in the ME whilst you believe you are the saviour of the world. That is very dangerous. No wonder we have 3 million Iraqi refugees not to mention the dead, as your goal for democracy. Notice it was first 911, then regime change, then genocidal Saddam, then freedom, then terrorism, and now we broke it so we must fix it. Carry on making it up whilst you cause havock. Morality means nothing to you but you can preach.

Act like an ostrich if you want but know that millions of world people understand what I say. I know I can't convince you since your mind is set in concrete. So be it.

Ahmed,

Your comments/complaints about Israel should be sent to the UN who establised said country in 1948. And if memory serves me correctly, Israel would have conquered the Arab world twice had not the USA convinced them to back off.

Then there was the matter of Kuwait, Kosovo and Bosnia. Hmmm, who were we meddling with/saving there?

And one wonders what the Russian Communists would have done with the Muslim world had the USA not won the Cold War?

Also, your religion needs come to grips with its own flaws before there is another world conflict caused by said flaws. You know them well and what do you plan to do about them before the USA must interfere once again?? And as a reminder, the Japanese militarists had to learn their lesson the hard way.

9/11 terrorism and all other terrorisms are the result of Koranic ill teachings to devout fanati muslims. To correct this malady muslims should take a project of changing Koran. Muslims should remove all those hundreds of killing and hateful verses from the Koran and keep only those soft and good vesres intact. I have given some sample from Koran below:

47:4- “Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), strike off their heads; at length; then when you have made wide Slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives”: thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens.”

9:123: “Oh ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers and let them find harshness in you.”

2:191- “Kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from wherever they drove you out.”

5: 45-- “We ordained therein for them: “Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear. Toth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal.”

2:193- “Fight them on until there is no more tumult and religion becomes that of Allah”

9:29- "Fight those who do not believe in God and the last day... and fight People of the Book, (Christian and Jews) who do not accept the religion of truth (Islam) until they pay tribute (Zizziya tax) by hand, being inferior.”

8:17—It is not ye who Slew them; it is God; when thou threwest a handful of dust, it was not Thy act, but God’s…..” (Allah is a real merciful indeed!)

5:33-“The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution (by beheading), or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;”

8:12- “I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off.”

SKM

9/11 terrorism and all other terrorisms are the result of Koranic ill teachings to devout fanati muslims. To correct this malady muslims should take a project of changing Koran. Muslims should remove all those hundreds of killing and hateful verses from the Koran and keep only those soft and good vesres intact. I have given some sample from Koran below:

47:4- “Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), strike off their heads; at length; then when you have made wide Slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives”: thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens.”

9:123: “Oh ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers and let them find harshness in you.”

2:191- “Kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from wherever they drove you out.”

5: 45-- “We ordained therein for them: “Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear. Toth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal.”

2:193- “Fight them on until there is no more tumult and religion becomes that of Allah”

9:29- "Fight those who do not believe in God and the last day... and fight People of the Book, (Christian and Jews) who do not accept the religion of truth (Islam) until they pay tribute (Zizziya tax) by hand, being inferior.”

8:17—It is not ye who Slew them; it is God; when thou threwest a handful of dust, it was not Thy act, but God’s…..” (Allah is a real merciful indeed!)

5:33-“The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution (by beheading), or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;”

8:12- “I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off.”

SKM

Your question should have been;

"On the eve of 911, our question should be: What led these people to do such a vile act and how we can stop such acts in future?".

Since I am dumb at finding a reasonable answer to your question other than "only a crazy vengeful person does such a crazy vengeful act", I am going to answer the question as I have posed above and would have liked to see you pose it:

1. Stop meddling in other countries affairs as you have been doing for the last 50 years.
2. 911 was the cause of such meddling, not the effect.
3. Stop supporting Israel as if it can do no wrong and denouncing Palestinians as if they can do no right. Be an impartial judge and do your bit for peace not vengeance.
4. Remove all your military bases in Middle East.
5. Use the funds saved to promote sciences, hospitals, education, arts, wisdom, building a just society and encouraging everyone to take part in their own destiny.
6. Do not install vile regimes and support them at the cost of local people.
7. Understand that this is better for securing your interests (oil) than by force. The side effect of such policies would be to make you a favourite of all people.
8. BE the face of peace that your profess. Let your actions represent your policies of peace.
9. Stop bullying leaders with whom you have a difference. Use diplomacy and have true intentions without having devious agendas. People of Middle East are not stupid. So treat them with dignity.

If you do all that and/or any other action that mirrors above, then repeat of 911 will never happen. If, however, you continue policies of brute force, bullying and intimidation, then expect more of 911.

This is not a threat but a humble observation from a man of peace who believes that violence begets violence and only love from the heart can eradicate any other nasty energy.

Humanity is in need of understanding and it does not need your leaders to support one party against another. it clearly encourages divisions and hatred. BE an impartial judge and never stop supporting LIFE, no matter who it belongs to. it could very well be your own and at a higher level we are ALL ONE.

"Rick; one unstable goof with a gun does not make a war."

A Hermit -It is clear that the initial A in your name is for A$$H@LE:

"On June 28, 1914, at approximately 11:00 am, Franz Ferdinand and his wife were killed in Sarajevo, the capital of the Austro-Hungarian province of Bosnia and Herzegovina, by Gavrilo Princip, a member of Young Bosnia and one of several assassins organized by The Black Hand.

The event, known as the Assassination in Sarajevo, was the trigger of World War I."

A Hermit says:

'Rick; one unstable goof with a gun does not make a war.'

Yes, this guy and the WVA cooks are just random nut cases.

But stand by for the trained insurgent who is well financed and knows how to melt into the background; i.e. doesn't announce his presence on an internet web site.

Remember how Muhammad and Malveux kept DC and surrounding area terrorized for months. They were caught because they were not financed, sleeping on the street in their car, and were stupidly trying to collect ransom money from the government.

Rick; one unstable goof with a gun does not make a war.

If that were the kind of standard we apply frankly I'd be a lot more worried about White Americans...

http://news.google.ca/news?q=Megan%20Williams&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&sa=N&tab=wn

ANON says:

'A young man in Dearborn Michigan went on a personal jihad and was arrested. ...'

It's about time they (the opposition) wised up. I've been wondering when they would take their cue from Muhammad and Malveaux (the DC snipers). That will be practically unstoppable if they get teams of snipers stalking our major cities, provided they get operatives with half a brain that will not get caught. Apparently this guy doesn't qualify.

But stand by for more of the same as long as we keep up our greed for Muslim land and oil fields and War on Islam in Iraq and Palestine.

A young man in Dearborn Michigan went on a personal jihad and was arrested. Was this his response to 911 religious extremes?

"A 26-year-old Dearborn resident, Houssein Zorkot, was arraigned in 19th District Court Tuesday on several felony charges, including carrying a dangerous weapon with unlawful intent.

Zorkot, a third-year medical student at Wayne State University, was allegedly armed with an AK-47 assault rifle and dressed in black clothing with camouflage paint covering his face when he was arrested Saturday in Hemlock Park.

According to police, Zorkot was observed attempting to leave the park in a black SUV after officers had received reports of a man carrying a rifle in the area. He was placed under arrest and is scheduled to undergo a preliminary examination at 9 a.m. Sept. 21 in 19th District Court.

Zorkot has also been charged with one count of possession of a loaded firearm in a motor vehicle and one count of felony firearm. He remains in custody on a $1 million bond."

Source – Press & Guide

If you hurry -you can get a look at the website he ran:

http://www.zorkot.org/Houssein2.html

Hurricane Katrina and 9/11 are samples that there is evil in this world. Humans have freedom to choose how and what kind of life they want to live. However, the decisions that we make will be judge by God and that would determinate where we spend our eternal life. From these events, we realize God Almighty: how those things that we used to think that matter (materials-money, cars, etc.), do not matter as much as before, and start valuing life more and from a different perspective. For example, we think that we have all in life (good car, a job, cloths, etc.), but then suddenly an accident or an even happens (we do not know when, where, or how) and we die. There has to be something more beyond us, something that feels the emptiness inside us (God). We learn from these experiences to appreciate more life, to be more united, and to express and be more kind to one another.

Hurricane Katrina and 9/11 are samples that there is evil in this world. Humans have freedom to choose how and what kind of life they want to live. However, the decisions that we make will be judge by God and that would determinate where we spend our eternal life. From these events, we realize God Almighty: how those things that we used to think that matter (materials-money, cars, etc.), do not matter as much as before, and start valuing life more and from a different perspective. For example, we think that we have all in life (good car, a job, cloths, etc.), but then suddenly an accident or an even happens (we do not know when, where, or how) and we die. There has to be something more beyond us, something that feels the emptiness inside us (God). We learn from these experiences to appreciate more life, to be more united, and to express and be more kind to one another.

Hurricane Katrina and 9/11 are samples that there is evil in this world. Humans have freedom to choose how and what kind of life they want to live. However, the decisions that we make will be judge by God and that would determinate where we spend our eternal life. From these events, we realize God Almighty: how those things that we used to think that matter (materials-money, cars, etc.), do not matter as much as before, and start valuing life more and from a different perspective. For example, we think that we have all in life (good car, a job, cloths, etc.), but then suddenly an accident or an even happens (we do not know when, where, or how) and we die. There has to be something more beyond us, something that feels the emptiness inside us (God). We learn from these experiences to appreciate more life, to be more united, and to express and be more kind to one another.

To all infidels:

Qur’an is the Primary Manual of Islamic Suicide Terrorism

By Syed Kamran Mirza
April 20, 2006

“Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction.” (Blaise Pascal, mathematician, 1670)

By now any sane human being of 21st century should realize that the religion of Islam is the main source of Islamic terrorism happening today around the world. But sadly, majority of gullible people (Muslim and non-Muslims) tend to ask questions: Does the Islam have anything to do with Terrorism? More precisely—does the Qur’an anyway responsible for Islamic terrorism, or Islamic suicide bombings? Some hypocritical western educated so called moderate Muslims now started to blame Hadiths (only) for Islamic terrorism/suicide bombings etc. and they are hypocritically claiming that Quran is totally innocent of this crime. These neo-islamists also claim that for all these Islamic suicide bombings and Islamic terrorism—it is the Sunnah (Ahadiths or traditions left by the Prophet Muhammad) which should be blamed, and not the Holy Quran. In this faulty or erroneous line of thinking they got their illusionary vision that, if hadiths could be dump then Islam will be very peaceful and innocent. This essay of mine has been dedicated to refute their (neo-islamists) dishonest claim about the source of Islamic terrorism.

Background story:

Islam is a cultic (brotherhood or ummatic) religion by nature. The very theme of Islam is: Allah is the sole creator of everything on heaven and Earth and Muslims are His only legitimate and righteous people. Remaining all other people (Jews, Christians, Hindus etc.) are simply infidels and hated by Allah. A Muslim is a person who gets his/her life's inspiration primarily from the Qur’an and secondarily from the Hadiths (the Sunna). The devout Muslims believe that life's all solutions are contained in the Holy Quran and every good Muslim does believe by his heart that the Quran is the immutable divine words of Allah, infallible-unchangeable-eternal book of Allah, and they must follow this (Quran) word by word without any question. Following this line of thinking the Muslims believe that anyone who does not agree with them is kaffir and enemy of Islam; hence enemy of Allah. A Muslim must oppose his/her enemy and kill him/her by any means whenever the opportunity arises.

Historically, Muslims in Arabia always considered their political enemies/rivals as the kaffirs (filthy, unclean, non-believers and deserves death) and always wanted to eliminate them by force. They have also considered it a blessed or holy thing to kill their enemy (kaffirs) which will please Allah and consequently they will be rewarded in this life and hereafter. If we study early Islamic history (the reigns of most Islamic caliphs) we can readily learn that there had been always bloody disputes amongst various Muslim political groups in which tens of thousands of people were slaughtered in the name of their religion. In these political disputes always one group was calling other group kaffirs or enemy of Allah. They tried to justify killing their rivals by Islamic dictums. Even today, the same patterns of religious sectarian killings are going on in Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan and many other Islamic nations and these are glaring examples of my above claims. As always, each party calls them the party of Allah and opposite party is the party of kaffirs who should be killed. In these sectarian killings Muslims always get their inspiration primarily from the Quranic dictums supported by Hadiths. They never get inspiration from anything which is not in the Quran; or they never kill anybody having being inspired only from hadiths. Because Muslims always consider Quran as the nucleus of their faith and inspiration and hadiths are used only to support Quranic dictums.

Islamic terrorists do kill people by their Islamic fanatical zeal which is the prime source of motivation in their killing spree. And these inspirations always come from Holy Quran. Now, question is: dose the Quran contain such verses which can easily inspire/incite devout Muslims to kill people with impunity? Answer is there are plenty of such inciting or inspiring Quranic verses which can turn any simple/innocent minded devout Muslims into a killing monster. In fact, Quran is replete with such horrifically inciting dictums throughout the pages of Quran. Holy Quran repeatedly promised celestial handsome rewards for those who can kill kaffirs (enemy of Allah and His messenger) and dreadful punishing hellfire for those who refuse to kill kaffirs. Quran also incite followers to sacrifice their lives in order to kill kaffirs in exchange of much better and lucrative after life. In this line just one Quranic verse (9:111) is most attractive to those jihadis who desperately eager to achieve heavenly rearward of 72 virgins. Here is the master piece from Holy Quran:
Quran: 9:111, Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons (lives) and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur’an.
In addition, a strong support and explanation to the verse: 9:111 was given by Merciful Allah by the following:
Quran-4:74- Let those fight in the cause of Allah Who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of Allah,- whether he is slain or gets victory (i.e. killed or be killed) - Soon shall We give him a reward of great (value).
Quran-4:95- Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons (sacrifice both life and wealth) than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward.
Quran-3:169-: Think not of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead. Nay, they live, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord; (Here Allah is saying that those jihadi who dies [commit suicide] is not dead but he will be living with Allah).
Now, I do not believe that anybody can have slightest doubt that the above clear invitations (from Allah) for the ardent fanatical believers can very easily convince the blind pukka (pure) Muslims to become a time-bomb (suicidal) in order to kill infidels/kaffirs—for the cause of Allah! The above verses (9:111; 3:169; 4:74; 4:95) are clearly ordering devout Muslims “to kill and be killed”; that is, Allah is teaching Muslims to sacrifice their own lives (to commit suicide) in His cause (Allah’s cause) in order to kill infidels (enemy of Allah). This single verse (9:111) very precisely justifies suicide bombing—the most lethal, most terrifying, most inhuman and most successful weapon majority Islamic terrorists are using today to kill Allah’s enemies. It is the perfect example (without any ambiguity) of suicidal method Allah has prescribed for devout Muslims. In the verse above (9:111) Islamic Allah clearly saying that: He (Allah) purchased life and property of believers in exchange of lustful and unimaginable lucrative heavenly pleasures for those who will die (commit suicide) for the cause (killing kaffirs) of Allah. After this, Muslims (ardent followers of the Quran) do not need any more killing instructions for their motivation to kill kaffirs/infidels. For good reason we can sum up that the Islamic God (Allah) is the most dangerous deity having unlimited vengeful, cruel, intolerant, intimidating and war-loving blood thirsty divine entity.
But this is not all! Quran is loaded with numerous (killing) verses ordering the ardent followers to carry out endless killing of infidels/unbelievers until only Muslims remain to inhibit this Earth owned by Islamic Allah. Here are some more examples:

Quran-8:39, And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere (in this earth of Allah).

Quran-9:29, Fight those who believe neither in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth (Islam), even if they are of the People of the Book (Christians and Jews), until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Quran-3:85, “If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).”

Quran-9:39, Unless ye go forth, (for Jihad) He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least. [Allah’s hatred to those who are reluctant to join Islamic jihad]

Quran-9:73, O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell,- an evil refuge indeed.

Quran-8:65: “O Apostle! Rouse the believers to fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred; if a 100 , they will vanquish a 1,000 of the unbelievers..”

Quran-8:66:”….if there are a 100 of you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish 2,00, and if a 1,000 , they will vanquish 2,000 (two thousands) with the leave of Allah…” [This fabulous verse was written in the diary of Muhammad Ata the leader of 9/11 terrorists].

Quran-4:78: “Where ye are, death will find you, even if ye are in Towers, built up strong and tall” (Perhaps Twin towers was meant here?)

Quran-2:193, And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression

Quran-2:216, Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you

Quran-5:33, The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

Quran-4:89— “They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades (change to other religions), seize them and kill them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-” (Punishment for the apostates).

Quran-9:5, But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem.

Quran-9:28, O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. (This verse is a glaring example how much hatreds Islam possess against non-Muslims).

Quran-8:67—“It is not fitting for an Apostle that he should have prisoners of war until He thoroughly subdued the land….” (Allah insisting Prophet to kill all the prisoners, and should not keep any surrendered prisoners alive)

Quran-8:17—It is not ye who Slew them; it is God; when thou threwest a handful of dust, it was not Thy act, but God’s…..” (Allah said, the killing of surrendered soldiers were done by the wish of Allah)
Quran: 9:23: "O ye who believe! Take not for protectors your fathers and your brothers if they love Infidelity above Faith: if any of you do so, they do wrong". [Quran is asking Muslims even to go against their own father and brothers in respect of religious faith]

Quran: 3:28: “Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah”

Quran: 5:45: We ordained therein for them: “Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear. Tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal.” (Does this verse sound humane?)

47:4- “Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), strike off their heads; at length; then when you have made wide Slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives”: thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens.”
9:123: “Oh ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers and let them find harshness in you.”
2:191- “Kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from wherever they drove you out.”
8:12- Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them." [Allah is really most merciful]
Holy Qur’an, as we read, is full of heinous, inhuman, and utterly dreadful cruel verses. The main themes of Quranic or scriptural instruction are: pursuance by advice, then by intimidation/coercion, then by force (killing, fighting, maiming etc), and in return plenty of heavenly reward from Allah. We can find hundreds of cruel hateful and utterly inhuman verses throughout the Qur’an. The above Qur’anic scriptures incited early Muslim Jihadis of 7th century period to kill thousands of non-Muslims and other infidels. During the early period of Islam, especially during Islamic expeditions by Prophet Muhammad himself while he was in Medina, thousands of infidels were brutally killed (beheaded) by the Jihadis. These same Quranic verses may still inciting devout/fanatical Muslims of modern days.
Now, does it take a rocket scientist to understand the source of the fanatical will of those September 11 terrorists? Does it ring the bell from where these Islamic terrorists (all over the world) getting their inspiration and hope? Will our Islamists still say, “Islam is a religion of peace,” or that “Qur’an is full of kind and compassionate advises?” Quran tells us to: "not to make friendship with Jews and Christians" (5:51), fight them "until they pay the Jizya (a penalty tax for the non-Muslims living under Islamic rules) with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued" (9:29). "kill the disbelievers wherever we find them" (2:191), "murder them and treat them harshly" (9:123), "fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem" (9:5), “ kill and be killed; i.e. commit suicide to kill kaffirs “(9:111).
However, Quran a holy book which is replete with contradictions also contains rare deceptive verses like the following:
Quran-4:29-30: O ye who believe! Eat not up your property among yourselves in vanities: But let there be amongst you Traffic and trade by mutual good-will: in Nor kill (or destroy) yourselves: for verily Allah hath been to you Most Merciful! If any do that rancour and injustice,- soon shall We cast them into the Fire: And easy it is for Allah.
Quran-5:32- On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.
Hypocritical Islamists try to use theses (only) two verses above to make an excuse that Allah forbade suicide killing for Muslims, or killing people. Truly, these verses (4:29-30) above only talking about self-destruction (suicide) for no real purpose other than self depression or pains which sometimes human prefers to end his life in order to get relief from pains. This kind of self-killing is prohibited by any religions, society or creeds and is called self-destruction (suicide) without having any ulterior motive or purpose. But this universal suicide has nothing to do with Allah’s call of “kill and be killed” (Quranic verse-9:111) with the divine purpose (to kill infidels) of serving Allah, as the verse has clearly stated. And the verse (5:32) is purely a deceptive verse used by most hypocrites of Islam to fool the Westerners. This verse was meant to describe historical aspects of Israelites and is nothing to do with the Muslims. Nor does this verse do any abrogation of the hundreds of killing verses came afterwards (while in Medina) to incite random killings (Jihad) of any un-believers by Allah’s soldiers called Muslims. In short holy Quran could be named (undoubtedly) as the supreme manual of intimidation, vengeance, terror, violence, and war against non-Muslims.
Profile of the Islamic Terrorists:
Osama Bin Laden (OBL) and his al-Qaeda jihadis have frequently cited many passages from the Holy Quran to justify their flagrant acts of terrorism around the world. Suicide bombing is the most successful weapon to strike terror in the hearts of the western infidels. In his famous ‘fatwa’ of declared war against Americans in 1998, terrorist leader OBL has repeatedly used jihadi verses from the Quran (mentioned in this essay) to incite his followers to kill Americans/infidels primarily by the act of suicide bombing. All the 9/11 Islamic terrorists left their private notes (especially Muhammad Ata) citing Quranic killing verses and they all committed suicide to kill American infidels (Kaffirs) 100% according to the Quranic verss-9:111. Not a single time they have ever claimed or mentioned any hadiths as the inciting agent of their killing spree. Israel have had captured numerous would be suicide bombers (who’s detonating did not work in their attempt of suicide bombing) with the suicide belt around them, and they all were interviewed by the western reporters in the Israeli prison cell. All most all of them told the reporters—they wanted to die to kill infidels according to the Quranic instructions to achieve heavenly pleasures with 72 virgin houris. None has ever mentioned anything about hadiths or Sharia laws as their instigator.
All the Islamic terrorists arrested by police in Europe (especially in Netherlands such as Van Gogh killing) readily cited Quran as their teacher to commit terrorism in order to kill infidels. In the train terrorism incident at Madrid (Spain) the Islamic terrorists were all longtime resident of Spain (North American and Syrian born) who admitted to police that they were “inspired by the doctrines (Koran) of Islam” to rise up against their adopted host country to kill 191 Spanish innocent citizen.
Recently, in Bangladesh (a newly infested nation by Islamic jihadis) has experienced an epidemic of bomb blasts by Islamic terrorists of Bangladeshi variety including scores of suicide bombings to kill judges in the various court premises. In such process of suicide bombing attempts, two have been captured by the police. When asked by the reporters why they were going to kill people by suicide method, they have answered: “We were doing it by the order of Quranic instructions by Allah”. When Bangladesh terrorist leader Maulana Shaikh Rahman and Bangla Bhai have been captured by the police, Maulana Shaikh Rahman said: “We have done it to establish Allah’s laws in Bangladesh and we were doing it according to the Quran.” Showing one copy of Quran in his hand, he (Maulana) said: “If I am a terrorist, then Quran also a terrorist”. What could be the more clear evidence that Islamic terrorists are directly getting incitement and encouragement from the holy Quran?
More recently, the 20th hijacker of 9/11 terrorism Zacaria Moussaoui proudly declared in the court: “I wish I could kill more Americans, because my religion Islam (which is of course Quran) demands that I kill infidels.” Zacaria Moussaoui or any other Islamic terrorists never told that they have been incited by the teaching of ahadiths or Sharia laws alone. In fact, all most all Sharia laws are rooted to the Quran and supported by hadiths.
Point to ponder that life is invaluable and extremely precious to every human (Rich, poor, young, old, sick or even handicapped) and no one wants to die in vain without any real purpose or gains. Only a superior/divine lustful hopes and inspiration due to brainwashing can trigger somebody to take his/her life. Islamic terrorists are definitely inspired by such lustful afterlife. Palestinian young boys and girls of 12-16 do not die just for revenge or to free their motherland. They definitely have the vision of Islamic heavenly pleasures (due to brainwashing) which inspire them to wear a deadly suicide belt around their young and tender bodies. Qur’an is readily available almost in every house of Muslims in general, but books of Hadiths are very rarely available to the ordinary Muslims. General Muslims do not get motivation from the Hadiths, because they do not get chance to read hadiths. Besides, Muslims do not take hadith as seriously as Quranic dictums, and to do something as serious as killing innocent people in exchange (suicide) of own life Muslims surely need Quranic instructions; and for that reason Quran has plenty of it.
Are all the suicide bombings same?
Islamic apologists often argue that suicide bombings for the cause of freedom fighting committed not only by the Muslims, but by many other nations (Tamil, Jews, and Japanese Kamakazies) committed suicide bombings for their own freedom struggle. According to them, Muslims are committing suicide today for their freedom struggle. Therefore, suicide bombings by Muslim youths have nothing to do with Islam! Most prudent question can be asked here: Are all those past suicide bombings same as Islamic suicide bombings today? Are their pattern same? Let us examine:
Those so called Tamil Tiger, Jews or Japanese Kamakazis may have used technique of suicide bombings very rarely as their desperate quest only to free their own motherland, and their suicide acts were absolutely limited to their own land targeting soldiers, leaders and not innocent civilians. Tamil, Jews, Kamakazies or IRA never blasted bombs in other countries outside their own geographic boundary; they only primarily did blast bombs within their own border. Rarely, isolated single bomb in the vicinity of their border, such as Tamil’s killing Razib Ghandi for his support of Sri Lankan Government. But they never ever came to America, Britain, Spain, Indonesia, Tanzania, Uganda, Yemen, Saudi Arabia etc. to blast suicide bombs inside restaurants, bus, train, metro, ocean beaches, tourist resorts etc. None of those above did suicide bombings throughout the whole world globally like those Islamists vigorously doing it today. How many Tamil blasted suicide bomb in Europe or America? Was there any global jihadi phenomenon of suicide bombings by Tamil Tigers like those Islamists?
Islamists also now telling us that those Muslim youths blasting their jihadi suicide bombs only to take revenge for Iraq war. As if, before Iraq war Islamic jihadis were very gentle and were sitting idle. May I ask why those Islamic jihadis were blasting bombs relentlessly at US military camps in Saudi Arabia, American Embassies in Tanzania, Uganda, Pakistan, Nairobi and elsewhere, much before Iraq war? Why they killed more than 3000 innocent civilians in WTC? Why they bombed US ship at Yemen? Why they bombed US barrack at Beirut? Was their Iraq war then?
Conclusion:

Quite obviously, the cause of Islamic fanaticism, zealotry and suicide terrorism is rooted in the Holy Qur’an (9:111; 3:169; 4:74; 4:95). Terrorists like Osama bin Laden and others are the victims of Quranic scriptural immoral teachings. They believe Quran by their hearts and try to follow the Quran in Toto! But the general born Muslims do not follow Quran at all, and that is why they believe in their own peaceful illusionary vision of Islam, which never existed in the history of Islam.

However, the zeal of Islamic fanaticism could have energized by the Middle East Political situation of Palestine and Israel. But this has also much to do with their inherent hatred towards Jews and other non-Muslims which they have acquired primarily from the teachings of Quran and some supports from hadiths in the Madrasshas in their early lives.

Osama bin Laden is the true Muslim who follows Quran and hadiths in ‘Toto’ and this hero of Muslim interprets Quranic verses and hadiths as per the needs of Islamic Umma, and of course, as per the real spirit of medieval Islam. In fact, gullible Muslims consider OBL as the mirror image of Prophet Muhammd and many things about him (OBL) are 100% compatible with the life and deeds of Islamic prophet Muhammad. That is why true Muslims (Maulanas, Mullahs, Madrassha students [Talibans], all leaders of Islamic political parties) of Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indonesia, and other Muslim countries are supporting Osama and his host, Talibans of Afghanistan. It’s totally irrelevant and useless to claim that Osama, al-Qaeda terrorists and Talibans are not true Muslims, or they are Muslims by their distorted views of Islam! Actually, they are the real Muslims, and they are the Muslims by the book. All others so called progressive Muslims (living in the western comfort) are simply Muslims by virtue of their birth in a Muslim family.
Time has arrived now to identify and intervening the real cause of this ancient medieval stupidity. Real problem is with the ancient Bedouin teachings of Islam (read Qur’an) which are outdated and no longer fitting the today’s civilized world. Islamic terrorism is the giant problem of entire mankind today and fanatic Muslims are the zombies at the hands of immoral Quarnic teachings. How can one cure a body by keeping the cancerous lesion inside the body? Nothing can change this precarious situation of Muslims unless we realize the real problem (read Quran) and take care of it. Finally, let me close this essay by a famous quotation.
“Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”-- by Nobel Laureate physicist Steven Weinberg:

Literatures:

1. The Holy Qur’an, Translated by A. Yousuf Ali, Published by Amana Corporation, Brentwood, Maryland, 1983
2. Holy Qur’an, Translated in Bengali by Ahmadiya Muslim Centenary Publication of Bangladesh, 4 Bakshi Bazar road, Dhaka, 1992
3. Holy Qur’an, Bengali translation by Maulana Muhiuddin khan, Khademu Harmain Sharifain, Saudi Arabia, Madina Mannwara, 1413 Hijri.

700 TEACHINGS OF KORAN THAT JUSTIFIED 911 MURDER OF 2700 PEOPLE

Osama bin laden was a man with a plan – the creation of an Islamic Caliphate in the Middle East that would be expanded to include all Muslim countries and then the entire world.

The only way this plan can succeed is the forced withdrawal of the US from the Middle East.

The US by failing to respond to Bin Laden’s attacks since the first trade center twin tower bombing in 1991 and indeed the appeasement of the US by ignoring other murderous attacks such as the Kenya embassy slaughter and the Cole attack made 911 inevitable.

The 19 Muslims who seized the 4 jets were the cannon fodder for Bin Laden’s vision.

Islam provided the religious and moral basis for the murder of 2700 people. By teaching hate of infidels – that killing and murdering infidels is the Law of God – these 19 Muslims were following EXACTLY the teachings of Islam – THEY WERE FOLLOWING IN THE FOOTSTEPS OF THEIR EVIL LEADER MUHAMMAD. You can hear Muhammad Atta yelling – Praise Be To Allah – over and over as he smashed the jet into the first trade center tower.
These righteous Muslim killers were obeying Koran 9:111, 9:29. 9;50 so they could ascend to the highest levels of Paradise and each be rewarded with a 1000 virgins that they could molest and sexually abuse for all eternity. The evil vision of Paradise with its eternal hard – on and virgins who re-virginate each time after sex promised to Muslim men who achieve martyrdom is a powerful motivation.

The 700 evil teachings of Islam created the hate in the hearts and souls of these Muslims and allowed them to kill as a religious duty – making “SLAUGHTER IN THE LAND.”

For a listing of these evil teachings go to www.godofreason.com

By
Larry Houle
www.godofreason.com
intermedusa@yahoo.com

700 TEACHINGS OF KORAN THAT JUSTIFIED 911 MURDER OF 2700 PEOPLE

Osama bin laden was a man with a plan – the creation of an Islamic Caliphate in the Middle East that would be expanded to include all Muslim countries and then the entire world.

The only way this plan can succeed is the forced withdrawal of the US from the Middle East.

The US by failing to respond to Bin Laden’s attacks since the first trade center twin tower bombing in 1991 and indeed the appeasement of the US by ignoring other murderous attacks such as the Kenya embassy slaughter and the Cole attack made 911 inevitable.

The 19 Muslims who seized the 4 jets were the cannon fodder for Bin Laden’s vision.

Islam provided the religious and moral basis for the murder of 2700 people. By teaching hate of infidels – that killing and murdering infidels is the Law of God – these 19 Muslims were following EXACTLY the teachings of Islam – THEY WERE FOLLOWING IN THE FOOTSTEPS OF THEIR EVIL LEADER MUHAMMAD. You can hear Muhammad Atta yelling – Praise Be To Allah – over and over as he smashed the jet into the first trade center tower.
These righteous Muslim killers were obeying Koran 9:111, 9:29. 9;50 so they could ascend to the highest levels of Paradise and each be rewarded with a 1000 virgins that they could molest and sexually abuse for all eternity. The evil vision of Paradise with its eternal hard – on and virgins who re-virginate each time after sex promised to Muslim men who achieve martyrdom is a powerful motivation.

The 700 evil teachings of Islam created the hate in the hearts and souls of these Muslims and allowed them to kill as a religious duty – making “SLAUGHTER IN THE LAND.”

For a listing of these evil teachings go to www.godofreason.com

By
Larry Houle
www.godofreason.com
intermedusa@yahoo.com

My message to religious, notably Muslim, extremists: Grow up.

It's never your fault. It's always a mysterious cabal of Jews, or The Great Satan, or someone else messing around with your Islamic Paradise. In actuality, the simple fact of the matter is that Islam is keeping you in chains. Just because you claim to enjoy them doesn't make them any less binding. It is hardly a coincidence that Islamic countries inevitably stagnate into a repressive, vindictive "society" where the abuse of women and minorities is rampant and people are beheaded in the streets without any legal recourse. As far as I can tell, terrorism is nothing more than extremely violent, selfish hissy-fits by people who can't handle the "infidel" countries being superior in pretty much every way, so they blow themselves up in an effort to get some heavenly virgins. Again: grow up. You've no one to blame but yourselves.

To those of you who don't seem to know what religious extremism/terrorism is about; here is an example from another thread that may help. It is basically a response to the world's only super power and terrorist nation's land/oil grab in the Middle East, beginning with Palestine and Iraq:

Here is the link from the Yossi Melman Post Global thread that the following paste was taken from, if you want the context. Have you been following this thread? It's a barrel of fun.
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/postglobal/yossi_melman/2007/09/cut_out_the_hypocrisy_on_terro/all_comments.html

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RICK:

Zuni,

Don't worry; there will be no gas chambers in the Sinai. We will partition Texas and you can have half. Crawford can be your new capital. There will be plenty of room for the current 5,140,000 Jewish population of Israel as of the April 24, 2007 census.

ZUNI:
Could't deal with the issue and questions huh Rickster ? Actually, Rickster The Jews will Have Israel as long as the Lord G-D will permit. Israel will continue long after you and your mama lay a moldering in your pine boxes somewhere that cannot be described herein. Get my drift Rickster ? Happy New year to your mama.
SEPTEMBER 12, 2007 11:35 PM

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Zuni,

Thanks for allowing us a glimpse into your dark heart. It is amazing what one can learn on this site and quite gratifying.

Don’t worry so much, you will love Texas. We will partition it so that your half is contiguous, while the other half is divided into separated quarters.

You will have the prime real estate including the Dallas-Fort Worth and Crawford areas.

You will have control of the fresh water supply.

You can keep your Army, Navy, Air Force and nuclear weapons. We will back you up with the full power of the world’s last remaining super power.

We will immediately stop all federal aid to the native population, while continuing your $3 B annual aid.

Feel free to launch all the settlements that you wish in the native half’s real estate.

Assassinate the opposition leadership to create chaos on the other side.

See, it will just be a grand old party.

I’m sure that you will get along famously with our Dear Leader and World Class Hypocrite in the White House.

To religious extremists, those whom take religion to quite an extreme, such as those who brought forth the 9/11, I’d say, what are you thinking? Is the extremity of your actions simply an exaggeration? Do your teachings or beliefs show that you must sacrifice others and yourself to please God? And if yes, then somewhere down the line of your teachings is a big misinterpretation. There shall be no more sacrifices. God is loving. God is caring. He is merciful and thoughtful. He thought of us when he was condemned to die on the cross. He sacrificed himself and no one else. He thought of us when he created the heavens and the earth. He gave us LIFE. He gave it to us to teach our children and our children’s children the value of life. What are those values of life? Love, compassion, faith and many others don’t appeal to sacrifices or mass murders. He gave us life so that we could follow His path of righteousness. Murdering is not righteous. He did not give you or anyone the right to take life form us. Religion has nothing to do with it. It is not about religion, that is only a lame excuse. Violence, murder, and injustice are only matters of evil, opposite of the Godly ways. If we the people of God should be extreme at any point, it should be in loving Him and one another and spreading his love. Love God, believe in Him, seek Him, and you will find him. This is the only way that you may, if that, enter the gates of heaven.

To religious extremists, those whom take religion to quite an extreme, such as those who brought forth the 9/11, I’d say, what are you thinking? Is the extremity of your actions simply an exaggeration? Do your teachings or beliefs show that you must sacrifice others and yourself to please God? And if yes, then somewhere down the line of your teachings is a big misinterpretation. There shall be no more sacrifices. God is loving. God is caring. He is merciful and thoughtful. He thought of us when he was condemned to die on the cross. He sacrificed himself and no one else. He thought of us when he created the heavens and the earth. He gave us LIFE. He gave it to us to teach our children and our children’s children the value of life. What are those values of life? Love, compassion, faith and many others don’t appeal to sacrifices or mass murders. He gave us life so that we could follow His path of righteousness. Murdering is not righteous. He did not give you or anyone the right to take life form us. Religion has nothing to do with it. It is not about religion, that is only a lame excuse. Violence, murder, and injustice are only matters of evil, opposite of the Godly ways. If we the people of God should be extreme at any point, it should be in loving Him and one another and spreading his love. Love God, believe in Him, seek Him, and you will find him. This is the only way that you may, if that, enter the gates of heaven.

The message that I would like to send to this religious extremists is that they should not kill because of their believes. I think that our believes should not make us harm others, they should help us to understand the other's views. They need to learned to respect the believes and the ideas of others. The actions they have committed against the citizens of this country are against any existent God. Something that really highlights their actions is that they are not just hurting the people in this country, but their own people. But I don’t understand how this people don’t care about anything, just about hurting others.

I do understand that religious extremist are doing what they feel is best. I just do not understand why they are making so many people suffer for thier beliefs. It is our choice to be the religion that we want to be and they do not need to impose on our beliefs.

I will be free and practice the religion that i believe is the right one, and am not going to let any religious extremist tell me anything other than that.

I do understand that religious extremist are doing what they feel is best. I just do not understand why they are making so many people suffer for thier beliefs. It is our choice to be the religion that we want to be and they do not need to impose on our beliefs.

I will be free and practice the religion that i believe is the right one, and am not going to let any religious extremist tell me anything other than that.

I have respect for religious extremist but sometimes I feel that they do not have the same respect for others who do not believe in what they do. Everyone is entitled to there own opinion, we might not agree with it but we should respect it. I do admire there dedication to their belief. Some people are scared to stand up for what they believe in but extremist usually stay true no matter what the circumstance might be. Taking it as far as killing other people because you think it is for your religion is crazy. Something is wrong with those people, they are brainwashed not religious.

I have respect for religious extremist but sometimes I feel that they do not have the same respect for others who do not believe in what they do. Everyone is entitled to there own opinion, we might not agree with it but we should respect it. I do admire there dedication to their belief. Some people are scared to stand up for what they believe in but extremist usually stay true no matter what the circumstance might be. Taking it as far as killing other people because you think it is for your religion is crazy. Something is wrong with those people, they are brainwashed not religious.

I have respect for religious extremist but sometimes I feel that they do not have the same respect for others who do not believe in what they do. Everyone is entitled to there own opinion, we might not agree with it but we should respect it. I do admire there dedication to their belief. Some people are scared to stand up for what they believe in but extremist usually stay true no matter what the circumstance might be.

I really enjoyed reading all these blogs and different responses. From reading about this topic, I think that people really need to realize, things happen in life. Some things happen that arent controlable and we cant really do anything about them. Such as the religious extremism they are taking things to far.. You cant take things back you just have to pray for a better future, and you must be positive but dwelling on the situation does not solve any of the problems. So if you want to solve problems you must help out the people in need, and pray that things will get better, other than that there is really nothing for you to do...

I really enjoyed reading all these blogs and different responses. From reading about this topic, I think that people really need to realize, things happen in life. Some things happen that arent controlable and we cant really do anything about them. Such as the religious extremism they are taking things to far.. You cant take things back you just have to pray for a better future, and you must be positive but dwelling on the situation does not solve any of the problems. So if you want to solve problems you must help out the people in need, and pray that things will get better, other than that there is really nothing for you to do...

"On the anniversary of 9/11, what message would you like to send religious extremists?"

Before you answer that question you should think of who are the religious extremists and to what extent does it mean to be extremely religious? Instead of calling terrorists "religious extremists" we should just address them as "religious terrorists" because those terrorists motives are based on their religion and other terrorist would most likely inflict terror not as a result of their religion but on their financial, mental, and or political views. I think being religiously extreme means doing something that would make you stand out from other worshipers in a certain religion and does not necessarily mean that you have to kill people to be considered a religious extremist. Since this blog question is referring to 9/11 I think it's safe to assume that the topic is about sending a message to "religious terrorists". If I were sending a message to all the "religious terrorists" in the world it would be a really hurtful one with the words "Your mother..." at the beginning of almost every sentence.

"On the anniversary of 9/11, what message would you like to send religious extremists?"

Before you answer that question you should think of who are the religious extremists and to what extent does it mean to be extremely religious? Instead of calling terrorists "religious extremists" we should just address them as "religious terrorists" because those terrorists motives are based on their religion and other terrorist would most likely inflict terror not as a result of their religion but on their financial, mental, and or political views. I think being religiously extreme means doing something that would make you stand out from other worshipers in a certain religion and does not necessarily mean that you have to kill people to be considered a religious extremist. Since this blog question is referring to 9/11 I think it's safe to assume that the topic is about sending a message to "religious terrorists". If I were sending a message to all the "religious terrorists" in the world it would be a really hurtful one with the words "Your mother..." at the beginning of almost every sentence.

To the religious extremists, it's great to have something you believe in and something that you are passionate about but when the things you say and do harm others that don't necessary agree with your ways, you have gone too far. There is nothing we can do to take back what happened on 9/11..praying to your god won't help, turning others into your religion won't help and most importantly your extremes way won't help. 9/11 happened because of terroists, it is not on the blame of someone's god, or someone's religion. As citizens of the United States we are able to say whatever we want, and choose any religion to belong. With that said, you religious extremists, say and believe in what you want, but don't blame others for saying what they want to say and choosing what religion to belong too.

Why Religious extremism? I can see how a person might feel the need to take this route. Some reasons might be a person feeling like they need a place to belong to or just something to believe in. This kind of thinking is what might start one's path to religious extremism. That's my opinion anyway. I think that taking a religion to seriously is the wrong way of going about life. A person should enjoy life not feel like they need to act on what there religion tells them to door feel that they need to act a certain way because of there religion. I have to agree with Dave with the whole don't thrust these views down anyone's throat. A person should choose there own path and make there own choices about there faith. It shouldn't be sold to a person; it should be what a person wants.

Religious extremism? i can see how a person might feel the need to take this route. For a person to feel like they need a place to belong to or just something to believe in. This kind of thinking is what might start one's path to religious extremism. That's my opinion anyway. I think that taking a religion to seriously is the wrong way of going about life. A person should enjoy life not feel like they need to act on what there religion tells them to door feel that they need to act a certain way because of there religion. I have to agree with Dave with the whole don't thrust these views down anyone's throat. a person should choose there own path and make there own choices about there faith. it shouldn't be sold to a person, it should be what a person wants.

Religious extremism? i can see how a person might feel the need to take this route. For a person to feel like they need a place to belong to or just something to believe in. This kind of thinking is what might start one's path to religious extremism. That's my opinion anyway. I think that taking a religion to seriously is the wrong way of going about life. A person should enjoy life not feel like they need to act on what there religion tells them to door feel that they need to act a certain way because of there religion. I have to agree with Dave with the whole don't thrust these views down anyone's throat. a person should choose there own path and make there own choices about there faith. it shouldn't be sold to a person, it should be what a person wants.

On the anniversary of 9/11, I would just like to send this message to religious extremists:

it's cool to believe in a religion or whatever, but when it gets to the point of harming other people, then that's gone too far. I don't think your god or whatever it is you believe in would want you to kill hundreds of people. and if they did, for some sick reason, then that's a pretty dumb religion. Believe in what you want to believe, but don't bring others into it, and put other people's lives in danger.

Victoria, thanks. I just read up on Ramadan in Wikipedia and it's just not fasting for Muslims. A good Ramadan to you. I hope that's the right thing to say.

On the anniversay of 9/11 what message would you like to send religious extremists?

I would like to say to religious extremists that they are succeeding more than anyone could have foreseen. An unforeseen consequence of religious extremism is a quite irrational modern atheist movement.

It took me a bit to recognize the problem but I now can explicate it quite clearly.

Religions of course have their explanation of the world--God as prime mover, originator of morality, etc.--and diametrically opposed to this conception is a hardline atheism which actually is quite rare and is the belief that all is accident, chance, etc.

Well modern atheists recognize the contradiction of hardline, all is accident atheism--the contradiction which is of course that if all is accident how can we have progress, morality, anything really--and are saying that atheism is not necessarily a world in which all is accident.

Modern atheists are removing as much of God and all associated with him as possible without however going too far and declaring all is accident. They are taking a very narrow middle position which although not wrong in itself--and in fact I agree with it--is a position in which they allow themselves to declare that all religion and God is bad--morally bankrupt--and that they themselves, the modern atheists are the moral exemplars.

In other words, logically a very narrow position of removing God as much as possible without however postulating accident should lead to a world in which we are extremely careful, suspicious of all moral actions and words--because obviously if so much of existence--virtually all which has passed under the name God--is an error of thought, then we cannot wholeheartedly trust our own rationality and must constantly consider whether we might be in error...but modern atheists avoid this reasoning completely and are as dogmatic, moralizing in their own way, as any mob of humanity has ever been...

Let me even clearer as I have no time at the moment and in fact I am being rushed.

The world of God is a world in which existence has an origin--God of course--and meaning bound up with a development of thought consistent with this paradigm. Hardline atheism rejects entirely this paradigm and is the world of science, chance, accident.

In the middle we have our modern atheists avoiding the contradictions inherent in postulating all is accident and saying atheism does not necessarily mean a world of accident. But they chop out as much of everything associated with God as possible and in fact consider such (God) an error of thought. All is well so far according to the reasoning, but then instead of arriving at the logical conclusion that we arrive at a very narrow passage which requires the most astute, enlightened, clearly out of the ordinary morally human beings, they perform a complete switch and consider all religion immoral and they themselves as the moral exemplars. Basic reasoning reveals that if so much of human existence is an error of thought--all that God existence--then really one should be humble and constantly reflect whether one's own position is in error.

But there is none of that in modern atheist reasoning. In fact we have a crowd absolutely certain they are on the moral high ground, that if we just cut out religion man will be much more of a moral animal, and that certainly one does not need religion to be moral.

We have these modern atheists literally riding on a straw in the wind, precariously poised between a world of accident and a world in which all is God and which they deny, and they rush to the top of this narrow straw in full assurance of ease in a moral humanity beyond God.

It gives a whole new meaning to straw man argument.

To repeat myself still again, if so much of existence is error--all that God existence--and one is so very near the point of declaring all is accident but withdraws from this point to maintain a view in which atheism does not necessarily mean a world of accident, then it is only logical to be the most humble of beings and to reflect that perhaps logical development, morality,--everything--is very tenuous indeed.

But no, just study the modern atheist movement. Every bit as dogmatic and self assured as religious extremists.

What an interesting world we live in. I would advise people to beware of the extremes of everything.

Let this be the true legacy of 9/11.

"well, people are people arent they?"

Victoria.

You have not posted one word of compassion for the Black African Muslims in Darfur. Strange response to suffering.

this is what i said melinda-

i listened to the conversation but could draw no conclusions- there was no evidence one way or the other but the one muslim contends that members of ISNA covered up some info in their jaunt to sudan.

maybe you could post some more videos because this one is just a conversation that starts n the middle, ends in the middle, and doesnt make sense.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

so much for keeping things in context-

remarking on another persons conversation and drawing no conclusion due to incomplete information is not equivalent to apathy

now why would you do that?

Victoria said:

"..ISNA covered up some info (genocide) in their jaunt to sudan."

"well, people are people arent they?"

My heart breaks that we allow a people (Black African Muslims) to be so brutalized in our world -on our watch.

Why are some Muslims unmoved by the genocide in Darfur?

Hmmm, Ramadan???

Fast from Sunup to Sundown then gorge yourselve from Sundown to Sunup"? Then sleep most of the day in a "gorge trance"? And repeat this for thirty straight days??

And when we are awake and reading the koran, we skip the militaristic and anti-female passages???? And forget about the "pwtfft" responsible for bringing all this enlightenment to our lives???

Hmmm, Ramadan???

Fast from Sunup to Sundown then gorge yourselve from Sundown to Sunup"? Then sleep most of the day in a "gorge trance"? And repeat this for thirty straight days??

And when we are awake and reading the koran, we skip the militaristic and anti-female passages???? And forget about the "pwtfft" responsible for bringing all this enlightenment to our lifes???

jihadist indicated in another post she wasn't coming back to comment any longer.
actually, muslims already know about ramadan, i was posting for non-muslims since there is no other outlet for people to learn about it.
(you certainly wont see it mentioned on tv anywhere)
actually, ramadan evenings are busy, but the days are long without eating and drinking interrupting ones time.
personally, since i also undertake a reading of the entire qu'ran during ramamdan, i cant predict what time ill have available.
i certainly read alot more during ramadan.

as to why im so vocal lately, i figure it is better if people can target their anxieties onto me than onto people in their own communities.

also to humanize islam where it is being so completely demonized.

everyone always complains that muslims are silent-

as for darfur melinda- well, people are people arent they?
no one seemed even remotely aware of darfur and the sufdan until george clooney got a bee in his bonnet about it (not that im criticizing george)

there are people of conscience in every strata
and compalcent ones too
peace all and good rosh hoshanna (happy new year)to any of our jewish friends out there in cyberland.

it will be a busy time for jewish people also, yom kippur (day of atonement, or as i like to call it, atONEment)and sukkot (destival fo the booths)

Victoria
You're the only Muslim posting in On Faith lately. "Jihadist" mentioned in another post it's Ramadan, so I guess most Muslims won't be reading On Faith or your open letter to them. Even "Jihadist" is not reading On Faith to focus on things Muslims should do during Ramadan. I wish she'd still come in. Her posts to Concerned and other Muslim baiters and haters are fun to read when she deign to respond to them and I not even Muslim. Are you concentrating on Ramadan?

Thanks for asking for more information, Victoria. This is an important subject to many. Please watch the video. It reaffirms there is still goodness in the world.

This article is from indystar.com:

Darfuri refugees say they face apathy, silence from most of their fellow Muslims

They are devoted to Islam but increasingly skeptical of Muslims. This is the strange paradox Darfuri refugees in Fort Wayne are facing: A fundamentalist government in Sudan turned on them, and the Muslim world has largely stood by silently.

Here in Indiana, the Darfurians say, mosques and Muslim groups have offered little help. Abu Baker Suliman-Mahaht, 37, a recent Darfuri immigrant, says that when he needed money to pay for his wife's doctor visits, a mosque turned him down. A local church gave him the money.

Another Darfurian, Suliman A. Giddo, said groups such as the Islamic Society of North America, based in Plainfield, could have made a difference early in the conflict by calling on the Sudanese government to stop the killing. Instead, a delegation ISNA sent to Darfur in 2004 came back saying there was no sign of genocide.

The greatest irony for many Darfuri immigrants is who has helped: Jews and Christians.

Giddo, 44, said the Sudanese schools he attended taught that Jews and Christians were the enemies.
"I was excited to find out that the thing that everybody has in his mind is completely wrong. We found that we are respected here," said Giddo, co-founder and president of Darfur Peace & Development in Fort Wayne.

Christian churches and Jewish community leaders have offered humanitarian aid, such as paying medical bills; helped refugees through the process of gaining political asylum; and engaged in grass-roots activism and political lobbying on their behalf.

Beth Reilly, a Fort Wayne stay-at-home mother of three, became interested in Darfur after reading that children the same age as her own were being raped and killed in Darfur.

She asked her Methodist pastor to devote a Sunday to Darfur awareness, even taking an offering. Dozens of Methodist churches followed the example, and a movement was born: the Indiana Coalition to Save Darfur.

The Rev. Joe Johns of Fellowship Missionary Church in Fort Wayne first tuned in to the developing tragedy in Darfur when a friend introduced him to some local Darfurians over coffee at Starbucks. Eventually, he would make two trips to Darfur.

"This isn't just a world away," Johns said. "This is business that is in our own backyard."
That was never clearer than on Johns' second visit to Darfur. In a dusty desert village, he found the father of a Darfurian he had met in Fort Wayne and had the man sign an affidavit confirming his son's story of torture and persecution, which might help his asylum case.
The man said he never expected to see his son again and asked Johns to look after him.
"He bequeathed his son to me and basically said, 'Now you are a father for my son,' " Johns recalled. "It is something that is pretty meaningful to me."

Local Jewish leaders have publicly likened the genocide in Darfur to the Holocaust in Nazi Germany, and worked vigorously for a bill requiring Indiana to divest its pension money from companies doing business with Sudan's government.

The Darfurians say Muslim apathy is due to racism and that Arab Muslims see black African Muslims as inferior. They also say Muslim governments don't want to accuse another Islamic government of mass murder.

Local Muslim leaders agree that the Islamic world has done little to end the crisis in Darfur. But they say the situation is not about racism. They say the problem is systemic.

"Now that we have built our mosques and our schools, we really need to build a social services infrastructure so that we can reach out to people that are poor and needy within our community," said Shariq Siddiqui, executive director of the Muslim Alliance of Indiana.
ISNA joined the Save Darfur Coalition in December 2005, a year and a half after it formed. And Muneer Fareed, ISNA's secretary general, calls the situation there a tragedy. But Giddo and other Darfurians in Fort Wayne don't understand what took so long.

"If from day one all the Muslim communities, especially here in the United States, had stood up and said, 'We are Muslims, and we don't want your Muslim country to kill your own Muslims,' that may have made a lot of difference," Giddo said.

"Instead, we the people of Darfur paid that price."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LTD5FWM9WI

Thanks for asking for more information, Victoria. This is an important subject to many. Please watch the video. It reaffirms there is still goodness in the world.

This article is from indystar.com:

Darfuri refugees say they face apathy, silence from most of their fellow Muslims

They are devoted to Islam but increasingly skeptical of Muslims. This is the strange paradox Darfuri refugees in Fort Wayne are facing: A fundamentalist government in Sudan turned on them, and the Muslim world has largely stood by silently.

Here in Indiana, the Darfurians say, mosques and Muslim groups have offered little help. Abu Baker Suliman-Mahaht, 37, a recent Darfuri immigrant, says that when he needed money to pay for his wife's doctor visits, a mosque turned him down. A local church gave him the money.

Another Darfurian, Suliman A. Giddo, said groups such as the Islamic Society of North America, based in Plainfield, could have made a difference early in the conflict by calling on the Sudanese government to stop the killing. Instead, a delegation ISNA sent to Darfur in 2004 came back saying there was no sign of genocide.

The greatest irony for many Darfuri immigrants is who has helped: Jews and Christians.

Giddo, 44, said the Sudanese schools he attended taught that Jews and Christians were the enemies.
"I was excited to find out that the thing that everybody has in his mind is completely wrong. We found that we are respected here," said Giddo, co-founder and president of Darfur Peace & Development in Fort Wayne.

Christian churches and Jewish community leaders have offered humanitarian aid, such as paying medical bills; helped refugees through the process of gaining political asylum; and engaged in grass-roots activism and political lobbying on their behalf.

Beth Reilly, a Fort Wayne stay-at-home mother of three, became interested in Darfur after reading that children the same age as her own were being raped and killed in Darfur.

She asked her Methodist pastor to devote a Sunday to Darfur awareness, even taking an offering. Dozens of Methodist churches followed the example, and a movement was born: the Indiana Coalition to Save Darfur.

The Rev. Joe Johns of Fellowship Missionary Church in Fort Wayne first tuned in to the developing tragedy in Darfur when a friend introduced him to some local Darfurians over coffee at Starbucks. Eventually, he would make two trips to Darfur.

"This isn't just a world away," Johns said. "This is business that is in our own backyard."
That was never clearer than on Johns' second visit to Darfur. In a dusty desert village, he found the father of a Darfurian he had met in Fort Wayne and had the man sign an affidavit confirming his son's story of torture and persecution, which might help his asylum case.
The man said he never expected to see his son again and asked Johns to look after him.
"He bequeathed his son to me and basically said, 'Now you are a father for my son,' " Johns recalled. "It is something that is pretty meaningful to me."

Local Jewish leaders have publicly likened the genocide in Darfur to the Holocaust in Nazi Germany, and worked vigorously for a bill requiring Indiana to divest its pension money from companies doing business with Sudan's government.

The Darfurians say Muslim apathy is due to racism and that Arab Muslims see black African Muslims as inferior. They also say Muslim governments don't want to accuse another Islamic government of mass murder.

Local Muslim leaders agree that the Islamic world has done little to end the crisis in Darfur. But they say the situation is not about racism. They say the problem is systemic.

"Now that we have built our mosques and our schools, we really need to build a social services infrastructure so that we can reach out to people that are poor and needy within our community," said Shariq Siddiqui, executive director of the Muslim Alliance of Indiana.
ISNA joined the Save Darfur Coalition in December 2005, a year and a half after it formed. And Muneer Fareed, ISNA's secretary general, calls the situation there a tragedy. But Giddo and other Darfurians in Fort Wayne don't understand what took so long.

"If from day one all the Muslim communities, especially here in the United States, had stood up and said, 'We are Muslims, and we don't want your Muslim country to kill your own Muslims,' that may have made a lot of difference," Giddo said.

"Instead, we the people of Darfur paid that price."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LTD5FWM9WI

"what message would you like to send religious extremists?"

Die. All of you Die. And if you don't, we will kill you. Oh wait, that was pretty extreme. Uhm, let's all get along! No? Uhm, what do you mean I have to pray 5 times a day? Ok, I'm back to Die. Just Die.

"what message would you like to send religious extremists?"

Die. All of you Die. And if you don't, we will kill you. Oh wait, that was pretty extreme. Uhm, let's all get along! No? Uhm, what do you mean I have to pray 5 times a day? Ok, I'm back to Die. Just Die.

so this is a good muslim and a bad muslim?
whats your point melinda?

i listened to the conversation but could draw no conclusions- there was no evidence one way or the other but the one muslim contends that members of ISNA covered up some info in their jaunt to sudan.

maybe you could post some more videos because this one is just a conversation that starts n the middle, ends in the middle, and doesnt make sense.

find some others that are alluded to on mr hashems site-

The Islamic Society of North America sent a delegation to Darfur two years ago to check on the conditions there and the delegation which was part of the Islamic Society of North America lied about seeing mass genocide thus allowing it continue. Shariq Siddiqui admitted to this coverup and the Islamic Society of North America is continuing to refuse an investigation or even an explanation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaOAPan1Lj0

ISLAMIC SOCIETY OF NORTH AMERICAN COULD CARE LESS ABOUT BLACK AFRICANS.

Religious Extermists

It is ridiculous that you kill thousands of innocent people for God. Are you sure God really wants this?

Religious Extermists

It is ridiculous that you kill thousands of innocent people for God. Are you sure God really wants this?

Religious Extermists

It is ridiculous that you kill thousands of innocent people for God. Are you sure God really wants this?

Religious Extermists

It is ridiculous that you kill thousands of innocent people for God. Are you sure God really wants this?

Religious Extermists

It is ridiculous that you kill thousands of innocent people for God. Are you sure God really wants this?

chandra- theres a misunderstanding about the nature of prophets in islam- for instance, there are 250,000 unknown prophets sent to all the nations of the world- thats alot of unknown personalities and how they've led people to worship of god, literally only god knows- but there is no distinction made between ANY prophets-all are deserving of respect- muslims believe the last prophet sent to communicate with us was Muhammad(peace be upon him), and that all of the prophets are unified in their respective messages.
worship of one god-
its not even east versus west- there is unity and value in what both have to offer, and for every instance of a materalistic money-grabbing westerner, we find their counterpart in eastern peoples, and for every spiritually and altruistically inclined easterner we can also find their counterpart in western peoples.

we are all alot more similar than we are dissimilar.

this is why i love islam-
there is no distinctions made on the basis of color. brown and yellow and red and black and all in between are people first and responsible for their own souls. o and white of course.

it is anathema to islam

whether some people understand this message- remains up to their discretion.

Western Civilization and Western Society has been a pioneer in giving options and choices to Mankind in the Material realm and Material pursuits. When it comes to Spiritual pursuit, unfortunately everyone is told, that they have only one choice or option and if you do not subscribe to that option or choice , you are doomed. Hinduism on the other hand gives Mankind the choice to choose and pick the different options and packages that one feels comfortable with in a Man’s spiritual quest to find the Truth. This openness for Individual choice and decision making should be embraced and this option to choose and pick the path of your choice in your quest for the Truth offered in Hinduism is its greatest contribution to Mankind.

Abrahamic Religions (Judaism, Islam, Christainity) are all Prophet based religions, Each Prophet claiming exclusive right or ownership to knowing the truth and stating that his is the only way and the right path. This proprietary knowledge was communicated exclusively at a certain point in time in History to these prophets by God to be passed on to the commoners - Us, who are now debating and fighting over who should own the rights to this exclusive knowledge. Hinduism on the other hand starts on the foundation that Knowledge about Truth is available for anyone who is willing to seek it. And you can directly reach that path through Self- Realization. No Prophet has the right to exclusivity.

Let us all embrace this Plurality and openess.

clearly if you're looking for something jaded, you will find it.

i was elaborating on rick's contention that the abuse of palestinians and american policy were at the core of the current problems-

now - rick said-

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"and driving millions of families into refugee camps; then we would have the moral high ground in this battle; not Osama bin Laden."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

learn english grammar people-

he didnt say we would have the moral high ground and not OBL would have the moral high ground-
he said we would have the morla high ground SEMI COLON - AND ERGO WE WOULD NOT HAVE OSAMA BIN LADEN.

one or the other geniuses-

Rick. Thanks for the link to the site you quoted.

Here are some their comments on OBL:

Following a transcript of the Osama bin Laden tape:

"I think the part about the low taxes in Islam is a nice touch. Senator James Abourezk still doesn't believe Muslims were really responsible for 9-11. He thinks the Zionists did it. Usama is a regular donor to the Hadassah, I bet. I give the floor to him."

and

"The new Osama Bin Laden tape has been released just in time for the anniversary of the attacks of September 11.

It is undeniable that Bin Laden is right that America and the West are losing the war in Afghanistan and in Iraq. It is also undeniable that Americans did not learn the lessons of 9-11 and will not beginning the war against Bin Laden and his kind until they do."

BTW, You might want to check out the TRUMAN LIBRARY site:

http://www.trumanlibrary.org/whistlestop/study_collections/israel/large/israel.htm

Concerned The Christian Now Liberated asked:

Rick,

References to substantiate Truman's thinking??
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.mideastweb.org/us_supportforstate.htm

'President Harry S. Truman and US Support for Israeli Statehood:

...Truman was still averse to the idea of a Jewish state despite his support for immigration, mostly out of concern that it would require excessive US resources to defend it. This concern was to surface again and again and influence policy in the months ahead. ...

...The policy was undoubtedly influenced by electoral considerations. Loy Henderson admitted, "Many of the leaders of the Republican Party, including Dewey...were almost constantly criticizing Truman for failure to give full support to the Zionists. If Truman had taken positions that would have resulted in a failure to establish the Jewish State, he would almost certainly have been defeated in the November [1948] elections since the Zionists had almost the full support of the Congress, the United States media, and most of the American people. The new Republican Administration would then have gone along with the Zionists...'

CC simpers: "I believe my favorite quote, "Gators vs. Muslims??? Gators definitely will kill. With Muslims, it depends but with the koran as their operating manual can we trust any of them?" might be a problem."

Gee, why would an ignorant, narrow minded comment like that be a problem? Apart from contributing to the general atmosphere of religious misunderstanding and mistrust, I mean...

Honestly, you are a silly little man sometimes CC.

To the Muslim Religious Extremists:

Dear Jihadists,

What if you are wrong? Do what you must, but listen as well, if it is possible that you are wrong.

Sincerely,
Albert

Anon,

References to substantiate Truman's thinking??

Concerned The Christian Now Liberated says:

'And the UN approved the formation of Israel in 1948. If you have a problem with that, call your UN rep.'

Yes, that was the 2nd Mistake of the 20th Century.

President Truman had his UN representative vote for partition against his better judgment. Great Britain new better and abstained. He new that we would be paying the price and refereeing a free-for-all for the remainder of recorded time. Ah, but it was an election year. He wanted to bring many of the Jewish refugees to America, but the American public wasn’t buying it, and Dewey was tearing him up in the polls. So much for the buck stops here.

The 1st Mistake of the Century was the Balfour Declaration (1917):

His Majesty would view with favor the establishment of a Jewish homeland in Palestine. Said homeland not to interfere with the rights of the Palestine people....

Right....

What brought about (Victorias) Israeli harangue?

She was defending OBLs right to kill Americans because he disagrees with American foreign policy. Read her posts!

never heard of that hermit-
live and learn
http://www.darwinday.org/

but that reminds me of a funny movie i saw last week called the darwin awards

heres a link to the actual awards
http://www.darwinawards.com/

one of my favorite expressions is"thin the herd"

Victoria,

What brought about the Israeli harangue? If it were not for Muslim threats to annihilate Israel, they would not need your help/money. And I believe our current aid to Israel costs each US citizen about $10/year. Not a bad investment in keeping the peace. Egypt aid costs us almost as much. And I do believe most of the aid to both countries is military-based. Tis kind of hard to put a tank in your pocket.

And what do you think my chances are in becoming a citizen of Iran or Saudi Arabia or Syria?

I believe my favorite quote, "Gators vs. Muslims??? Gators definitely will kill. With Muslims, it depends but with the koran as their operating manual can we trust any of them?" might be a problem.

Then there are my issues with the "pwtfft" and the "holey not holy hallucinator".

Victoria,

What is Taqiyya and Kitman?

victoria :

"does anyone here know how to submit a potential question the the blog here?"

On the main page, below the "Reader's Response" box there's an e-mail link for submitting questions.

They haven't taken any of mine yet...I thought the overlooking of "Darwin Day" was a terrible oversight...;-)

Regards

A Hermit

P.S. Never mind the trolls; I read your initial response here and thought it was quite compelling. Funny how people will loudly demand that you denounce the terrorists and reject violence and show them what a peaceful Muslim looks like, and then when you do exactly that they all ignore it completely. Makes you wonder, really...

ive already responded amply to that question mike-
9-11-2007 1:53pm

ive moved on - no i wasnt addressing your statement it wasnt addressed to me and im not interested
ill decide what i want to discuss

heres your question-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"we would have the moral high ground in this battle; not Osama bin Laden"

Somebody correct me.. did I just read that Osama bin Laden has the MORAL HIGH GROUND?"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

heres your answer-
i have no idea what you are reading

Victoria writes:

"what was the reason that OBL gave for the attack on the twin towers?
remember?
american foreign policy, wasnt it?"

Or is she responding to my question about bin Laden having MORAL HIGH GROUND by backing him?

does anyone here know how to submit a potential question the the blog here?

RAMADAN STARTS TOMORROW
it lasts a full month
last year it went completely unnoticed on these boards-

Is Victoria's post her response to 911 religious extremists?

http://www.palestineremembered.com/index.html

just take a minute and look at this site

the UN has levied almost 200 resolutions AGAINST israel since 1955
coming up to 200!
they are all simply ignored!

against the palestinians?
0

now, we went to war with people in iraq under the guise of saddam flouting un resolutions?

so, as americans, do we consider UN resolutions IMPORTANT ENOUGH to go to war with a sovreign entity to enforce them?

so why didnt we go to israel 52 years ago when the first resolutions were passed and ignored?

and why have we given the israeli people over 300 BILLION AMERICAN TAX DOLLARS IN 60 YEARS???

currently we put over 23,000.00 dollars IN EVERY ISRAELI POCKET

does my government give ME 23,000 dollars EVERY SINGLE YEAR???

does it give YOU 23,000 dollars every year?

not to mention that in 1974 the UN declared that ZIONISM = RACISM!
zionism is the basis of the israeli government

there is no democracy in israel

go on and try to apply for citizenship in israel
if you're not jewish you're not getting in
all you can do is go for a week or 2 and spend your money on strictly controlled movements within the country

and as far as application for citizenship in israel- only if youre the white version

the descendants of the queen of sheba in africa have been petitioning for entry for years

but they are africans, and have a black hue to their skin
guess what- no entry

(an interesting side note is that genetic testing was done on israelis and this same group of solomons grandchildren, and the africans had a greater percentage of semitic dna- the israelis have had too many other genetic influences)

now were rattling the sabres of war in the direction of iran-
not because we are worried about iran coming to our shores and attacking us- we are not-
but because ISRAEL wants our protection

and if israel is such a great 'friend' to us

HOW MANY TROOPS HAS OUR FRIEND ISRAEL SENT TO IRAQ TO HELP US???

Friends when were doling out the money and giving billions of dollars in weapons to them-
but not friend enough to help us when we need it.

and this is why were over there and staying over there
what was the reason that OBL gave for the attack on the twin towers?
remember?
american foreign policy, wasnt it?

I am saddened by the amount of shallow stupidity placed on this board - first and foremost by the panelists, who are supposedly intellectuals and cultural leaders.

For a board entitled, "On Faith" the whole question of September 11, terrorism, and cultural conflict is being "analyzed" in an amazingly worldly and one-sided way. Claptrap like "zero-tolerance" for terrorism no more takes the problem seriously than does stupid over-simplifications about telling the terrorists that they are evil and need to learn to love. Neither one of them comes from a vantage point of faith, that's for sure, but rather from caricatures of it: neoconservatism and ivory-tower naivete.

Walter, above, posted a comment gets off on the right footing. Most of the rest of what I've read is truly, truly disappointing.

"we would have the moral high ground in this battle; not Osama bin Laden"

Somebody correct me.. did I just read that Osama bin Laden has the MORAL HIGH GROUND?

Rick,

Hmmm, Iraq is a civil war where the Sunnis and Shiites are killing/butchering each other in the thousands. And all over the "rightful" heir to one "holey not holy hallucinator"!!!!

The USA simply failed to recognize their hatred for each other. Now we are stuck trying to keep them separated.

And the UN approved the formation of Israel in 1948. If you have a problem with that, call your UN rep.

A message to the Religious Extremist and World Class Hypocrite in the White House:

Yes, yesterday was 9/11, a vivid reminder that we are at war with radical Islam.

And if we were not illegally and immorally occupying Palestine and Iraq, slaughtering millions of innocents (mostly women and children), and driving millions of families into refugee camps; then we would have the moral high ground in this battle; not Osama bin Laden.

Bertrand Russell said:

"It does not matter what you believe, so long as you don't altogether believe it."

I can add nothing that would improve upon Russell's wise counsel.

My message reinforced by 9/11:

Gators vs. Muslims??? Gators definitely will kill. With Muslims, it depends but with the koran as their operating manual can we trust any of them?

You are not following God. You are following tradition, a tradition that your parents and peers taught you, not God. Stop, don’t destroy your children’s lives with mans violent customs. God does not want you to kill, people want you to. Break away from mans traditions you are corrupting your children and defiling yourself.

There is no such thing as religious extremism. Hate and demagoguery will masquerade in whatever costume people will allow them to. We ought to quit associating 9/11 with religious extremism and call it what it was: hate of the world and everyone in it by a group of desperate people trying to abuse through the ignorance of others.

I would hope Islamic families would be so embarrassed that suicide ragers seem to have come from among their ranks, that they would teach every child within the sound of their voice that Allah loves all humanity, including each and every child across the world, and that it is within their power to get along with others in religious as well as secular pluralism.

What message would I send to religious extremist?

-Is one that why are we fighting a war when it has no sense. It's not definitely about religious preferences,is mainly about someone wanting to harm the U.S. Or not necessarily wanting to cause harm but certainly wanting do endanger the whole country.

What message would I send to religious extremist?

-Is one that why are we fighting a war when it has no sense. It's not definitely about religious preferences,is mainly about someone wanting to harm the U.S. Or not necessarily wanting to cause harm but certainly wanting do endanger the whole country.

What message would I send to religious extremist?

-Is one that why are we fighting a war when it has no sense. It's not definitely about religious preferences,is mainly about someone wanting to harm the U.S. Or not necessarily wanting to cause harm but certainly wanting do endanger the whole country.

What message would I send to religious extremist?

-Is one that why are we fighting a war when it has no sense. It's not definitely about religious preferences,is mainly about someone wanting to harm the U.S. Or not necessarily wanting to cause harm but certainly wanting do endanger the whole country.

what happen in 9/11 was not caused by God!!! It was caused by humas!! God would not hurt innocent people!!! Many people lost their lived that day and children were left without a parent!!

I think that 9/11 was not done by God...it was done by humans! God would not do such a thing!! He would not harm inccocent people!!!

Religion is the root of all wars. Strip away the economic, social, and political rhetoric and you will find that all wars are fought to settle the question, "Whose god is more powerful; ours or theirs?" This applies to all faiths. I challenge anybody to prove that statement wrong.

I would like to remind Emperor Bush and his thugs that the world will not stand for America's global version of manifest destiny. America will not be the head of a New World Order. We are on to you and will fight you to the death if need be. We will not be microchipped like cattle, we will not have our eyes scanned or our DNA cataloged in a central bank. Tell all your One-World friends that the game is up. We know you and your cronies were behind 9/11 just so you could push forward your agenda. The gig's up warmongers; you lose!

"On the anniversary of 9/11, what message would you like to send religious extremists?"

*holding hands with countless others*

The message is:

No.

You have seen Bush's 'crusade.'

You have not seen the *can* you don't want *us* to open.

Our message is:

NO.

"On the anniversary of 9/11, what message would you like to send religious extremists? "

On the anniversary of 9/11 all I would like to think about is the hero's of this unforgettable day..NOT religious extremists. I think we're all forgetting what happened and focusing on the unnecessary.

On the anniversary of 9/11, what message would you like to send religious extremists?

Religious extremists? I thought Islamic fundamentalists dropped the towers. Or should we take 9/11 as a declaration of war against all religious extremism? If so, from the perspective of the U.S. we would be having a war against aspects of Islam and Christianity here at home embodied primarily as the Republican phenomenon.

But then again war against religious extremism in general makes sense because no one really knows who dropped the towers, right? At least all the theories floating around say either Muslims dropped them or the CIA as a pretext to invade Muslim countries or the Jews...

I would say to Islamic fundamentalists that by all means continue fighting--the propaganda war is being won. We are now fighting "religious extremists" which at first sight might be a more useful procedure and characterization, but which actually diffuses and makes more widespread the enemy and makes it especially difficult for open societies to solve.

For the United States and Europe the problem is especially severe because for years the left wings in societies have been railing against the right and now we have Islamic fundamentalism somehow mixing with the left wings against the core of societies when you would think the left above all would be fearful of Islamic extremism.

But open societies, democracies, have been deluded and thinking that we are at finally the age of man without God and that we can all love one another and be of course left wing and...well, socialist, multicultural utopia. If one is not realistic about the future, no point in criticizing the past. If one has no real grasp of the past of man no point in trying to establish a future.

At first sight I would say to Muslim extremists--or even religious extremists in general--that really the historical trend has been toward a discussion between communism and capitalism, democracy and various forms of authoritarianism not particularly religious and therefore religious extremism has no real historical chance.

But now I would say there is a very real chance of democracy being compromised and all forms of economics being subjected to a type of authoritarianism which is a bulwark against extremism of all types--not just religious, let alone just Muslim extremists.

And the reason why of course is because of environmental problems, WMD, the increasing ability of even mere individuals to create civilization quaking havoc through application of technological advances...

Never fear religious extremists! You will have your day! But you will have to share it with all sorts of other extremists and when finally you might be a real threat to the U.S. you will find the U.S. is not as it once was but a truly malignant bloc of states wrestling with violence within and without...

The problem in the final analysis is way more than religious extremism. The problem is man meets technology. All this technology invented by great minds in the hands of us--all of us peons--and our stupid pet views of whatever type. Every jackass trying to "improve things" for others or just being cynical and trying to preserve this or that or destroy things for the hell of it.

The problem in the final analysis is probably not religion at all but just stupid man--and this in turn leading to each person claiming his God or reason will show the way and of course...

The image that comes to mind is of a group of people--say a thousand people--separating into the individuals they are and then all rushing together at an object and crashing into one another and then repeating this process until all are bloody and staggering...

I would like to see this performed in the heart of New York as a piece of kinetic art...

Broadcast it on television like that commercial of all those people pretending to fall down dead of cigarette smoke...

What a question...Not a bad day personally for me though, so the hell with everybody else right?

Man the moral being.

The question at hand was how can such a great God allow something like 9/11 happen? My response is that the tragedy of 9/11/01 was created by humans not God. This goes all the way back to Adam and Eve. God gave them the choice to live in sin and to see their sin by eating the apple and that is what they chose to do. That was our own free will. If anything the occuerrence of September 11 was a true test of our faith in God. It tests our ability to have faith in God and not have to see in order to believe.

The question at hand was how can such a great God allow something like 9/11 happen? My response is that the tragedy of 9/11/01 was created by humans not God. This goes all the way back to Adam and Eve. God gave them the choice to live in sin and to see their sin by eating the apple and that is what they chose to do. That was our own free will. If anything the occuerrence of September 11 was a true test of our faith in God. It tests our ability to have faith in God and not have to see in order to believe.

You are mistaken when you think:

your way is the only way
that you can impose your views on others through fear, confinement or violence
you are any different from any other human being
that God demands violence
that the needs of the one or the few out weight the needs of the many
that violence is the way to peace

If you do not understand peace, love, kindness and compassion then you do not understand God.

It is counter productive to the world and in reality yourself to suppressing anyone’s freedom; freedom of thought, freedom of speech, freedom to grow. Freedom is the nature of the universe and to suppress it is to suppress life itself. Life will find a way; the model will sustain itself even if it means destroying itself and starting anew.

If you feel you still need to kill us then by all means proceed. We will not lie down but stand strong against you not by force but by will. Unlike you it is by spirit that we are defined, not by power or victory through force. Even if we are killed in the end it will not change the truth, it will not bring you what you want. It will actually move you further away from where you say you want to go. It will take you further away from God.

My hope is that you embrace peace, love and compassion and find the true God you seem to be so desperate to find.

Well, Hermit, you are the Canadian. I'm sure you are aware of what is happening in your neighborhood. Still you might want to keep your eyes open. It may be too late for some:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article2419524.ece

Issa:

Show me one law that is danger of being changed to my detriment here. The sharia story is old news, it's not going to happen. In fact, the end result is less influence for similar, already existing extra-legal institutions of Jewish and Christian law, which to my mind is a good thing for everybody.

And the veil "issue" is a tempest in a teapot, to say the least. That wasn't Muslims asking for a change in the law, that was the Conservative government rewriting the law to "clarify" it and screwing up the wording so it allowed for visual "or other identification."

The whole story is a joke; there are reportedly fewer than a hundred women in all of Canada who wear the full veil, and THEY say they have no objection to showing their faces for purposes of legal identification. They already do it for passports and driver's licenses and say they'll happily do it to vote. They didn't ask for a change, and don't want a change.

I certainly have no sympathy for extremists, I think the veil wearing women look silly, and frankly I reject their religion as an archaic superstition but I have nothing but contempt for the senseless, ignorant fear mongering that goes on in stories like this stupid veil "controversy."

I don't judge all Christians for the actions of the KKK and I don't judge all Muslims for the actions of Al Qaeda. It's that simple.

You want someone to worry about in this country, Issa, worry about those nice white all-Canadian boys in the Hell's Angels and other biker gangs. They're the only group in this country that's actually been setting off bombs and assassinating people lately. A lot of them do have beards, but I don't think they're Muslims...;-)

Regards

A Hermit

Hermit says:

"Elmasry concludes with an appeal for reform of Muslim society and Mulsim countries.."

Do you know Elmasry's position on Sharia law? If Muslims are civilization builders -what sort of civilization do they envision? Whats their plan for you?

Take your time with this. Take a look at another Canadian Islamic Congress page:

http://www.canadianislamiccongress.com/democracy/strategy.php

Do the short and long term goals of producing more Islamic journalists, lawyers, and politicians express their love of your way of life or a desire to impose their control over your society and laws?

Are they assimilating or not? And what's your take on the voting veil?

OK Issa, I read the Elmasry essay, and there's lots in there I'd have questions about, some I'd disagree with outright and even one or two I might agree with.

And I notice he concludes with an appeal for reform of Muslim society and Mulsim countries, he appeals for openness, honesty, a rejection of violence, pragmatism, rationalism and humanism. Where in any of that do you find cause for a concern that the laws of my country are going to change?

Regards

A Hermit

Nice try Victoria and you even capitalized for a change. Unfortunately you are addressing male- dominated Islamics. These "ego males" have been brainwashed in the militaristic, anti-female koran. They will pay you no heed.

You also again failed to note the militaristic, anti-female passages of the koran. Why is that? These are the passages that must be deleted if the world is to survive Islamic terror.

Then again, the militaristic Japanese had to be transformed the hard way.

what are being labeled/discussed as "Religionist Extremists" are really individuals characterized by a personality disorder. They are not representative of a religion or even a sect or branch of any one religion. They are sociopath personalities and are driven by amorality not morality which is a basis of all religions. This amorality is clearly on display when they commit violent acts without guilt feelings, rationalize a ideology around death and destruction. They will always exist and must be countered by discrediting the ideology by promoting healthy ideological alternatives and healthier societies around the globe.

what are being labeled/discussed as "Religionist Extremists" are really individuals characterized by a personality disorder. They are not representative of a religion or even a sect or branch of any one religion. They are sociopath personalities and are driven by amorality not morality which is a basis of all religions. This amorality is clearly on display when they commit violent acts without guilt feelings, rationalize a ideology around death and destruction. They will always exist and must be countered by discrediting the ideology by promoting healthy ideological alternatives and healthier societies around the globe.

what are being labeled/discussed as "Religionist Extremists" are really individuals characterized by a personality disorder. They are not representative of a religion or even a sect or branch of any one religion. They are sociopath personalities and are driven by amorality not morality which is a basis of all religions. This amorality is clearly on display when they commit violent acts without guilt feelings, rationalize a ideology around death and destruction. They will always exist and must be countered by discrediting the ideology by promoting healthy ideological alternatives and healthier societies around the globe.

OPEN LETTER TO MUSLIMS

Prophet Muhammad [peace be upon him] was insulted and ridiculed on a regular and daily basis during his lifetime. He was even called a liar by his enemies. His opponents mocked his message that challenged the status quo. They even tried to assassinate him in order to silence him for ever. The Prophet (peace be upon him), however, did not get angry or react with emotional outbursts to these provocations at any stage of this ordeal. Instead, he offered a prayer of forgiveness to those who showed contempt for him. He indeed set an unparalleled example of patience and fortitude.

Today all across the world, many followers of Prophet Muhammad [peace be upon him] are insulting the Prophet (peace be upon him) by their knee-jerk response to the provocative Danish cartoons about the Prophet [peace be upon him]. They are attacking embassies, burning newspapers, threatening journalists, issuing bomb threats, and promoting suicide bombing. Still, they claim that they are defending the Prophet [peace be upon him]. These measures do not comply with the values of an ideal community whose Prophet is described in the divine scriptures as a Mercy to Humankind. Moreover, Muslims by their angry outburst made even the initially disinterested people to search for the caricature. Unfortunately, Muslims made the existence of the offensive cartoons widely known as they did to the boring Satanic Verses of Salman Rashdie.

At this moment of extreme sadness, I ask Muslims to join me to read the Qur’an for guidance, consolation, and self-control, instead of adding fuel to the fire.

“And verily messengers before you were mocked but in the end, the mockers were overwhelmed by the very thing they ridiculed.” [21:41.]

“Indulge [people] with forgiveness, [accepting] what issues spontaneously from people's manners [of behavior], and do not scrutinize them, and enjoin kindness, decency, and turn away from the ignorant, and do not counter their stupidity with the like.” [7:199]

“You shall most certainly be tried in your possessions and in your persons; and indeed you shall hear many hurtful things from those to whom revelation was granted before your time, as well as from those who have come to ascribe divinity to other beings beside God. But if you remain patient in adversity and conscious of Him - this, behold, is something to set one's heart upon.” [3:186]

“When you see those who engage in discourse about Our signs, the Qur'ān, in mockery, turn away from them, and do not sit with them, until they discourse on some other topic…”[6:68]

Here, the Qur’an counsels us, Muslims: the Qur’an, Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), and prophets before him were ridiculed; we will hear many hurtful and painful things; do not scrutinize the ignorant or counter their stupidity with similar means, but extend kindness and decency to them; do not resort to intimidation and violence against mockers but leave them alone, be patient, and conscious of compassionate God.

All the above verses illustrate that angry or violent response to those who ridicule Muslims or even prophets (peace be upon them) is not an Islamic axiom. In fact, the Qur’an calls for patience and tolerance with mockers. According to the verses, if Muslims ignore the ignorant and let them express their ignorance freely, the mockers will be "overwhelmed by the very thing they ridiculed."

None of the verses mention of the abridgement of non-believer’s right for free speech even if it is painful and indecent. In fact, the right of free speech is abridged for Muslims in this painful situation because they are expected to ignore the mockers and make a polite exit from the scene. Muslims have no divine mandate to stop the mockery by force or intimidation. Therefore, the acceptance and practice of the principles of free speech is an Islamic decorum.

Right of free speech is not a gift from the East or the West. It is a divine gift and a mercy for humanity. Let us remember that "verily messengers before you were mocked" and let us pray and forgive contemporary scoffers our beloved Prophet (peace be upon him) until they accept human decency and free speech with responsibility.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

MUSLIMS REPONSE TO 911
http://groups.colgate.edu/aarislam/response.htm

Mike--only a small percentage of religious extremists have actually resorted to violence. My message was directed to those that harbor extremist views but are not yet on the frontline fighting a war. There are plenty of those around. The message is a warning to them. As for fanatics already figthing, no message is necessary. The war is on.

The most idiotic mistake nations make is in thinking that it's not our problem. Well, it's everyone's problem, not just a problem for the US, UK, and Israel. Iraq would be under control within a few months if China were to contribute 200,000 soldiers, India another 150,000, Russia 125,000, and so forth. These fanatics are taking advantage of a divided world.

"I won't allow fanatics of any kind to change the principles on which my free and open democratic society is founded."

A noble statement. And yes, Hermit, I read it..

Here's a great place to start educating yourself:

MUSLIMS ARE CIVILIZATION BUILDERS

By
Prof. Dr. Mohamed Elmasry

National President
The Canadian Islamic Congress

Paper delivered at the Islamic Conference, Cairo, Egypt, April, 2005

http://www.canadianislamiccongress.com/docs/cairo_2005.php

I am sad to see all the comments about harming others. It is sad and unforunate that those who have responded have so much hate in themselves. Bomb Mecca, Why? it is sad. For those of you who have that much anger....You need to ask yourself...Are you truly a Christain?..Christ call us to forgive and turn the other cheek. Seek Peace within yourself. That is the first starting place....The language you are using is wrong and your feelings are wrong....Seek Christ. Love our Enemies....is that not what Christ calls us to do......We have a long way to go......

As a fan of irony, and as an atheist, it would amuse me to send to each religious fanatic, someone else's god that they don't believe in, to smite them most brutally and theatrically. There would be a certain poetic justice in that I think.

"how about if they change the laws of your country?"

Did you not read my comment, Issa? I won't allow fanatics of any kind to change the principles on which my free and open democratic society is founded.

What laws are you talking about?

a hermit says

"I will not allow the actions of a few deranged fanatics change my world or change my character."

how about if they change the laws of your country?