9/11

Thank you Moody; it takes a lot of courage to admit a mistake and ask for forgiveness. Your apology is accepted.

You certainly were provoked to lose your temper. We cannot all have the patience of our dearest friend Victoria.

On behalf of all of my fellow citizens of the terrorist state of US_Israel, please accept our apology for the heinous crimes that we have committed, and will continue to commit, against the Muslim world.

Hi,

First I'ld like to apologize for all the anger reflected in my posts, due to obvious reflected reasons. I would like to take this moment to CLARIFY, that it was not due to hate or discrimination in general against anyone, but YES against the elements which are causing such devastation, hatred and distruction between us (humans).

Hi,

First I'ld like to apologize for all the anger reflected in my posts, due to obvious reflected reasons. I would like to take this moment to CLARIFY, that it was not due to hate or discrimination in general against anyone, but YES against the elements which are causing such devastation, hatred and distruction between us (humans).

Victoria,

Congratulations on winning your much deserved award! Check it out on the following link by The Jihadist posted at 5:56 PM:

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/susan_jacoby/2007/10/cooperate_or_die/all_comments.html

THE FIRST ANNUAL AWARDS FOR READER-POSTERS OF "ON FAITH" 2007

Prizes : free continued access to On Faith until award winners wants to stop or On Faith stop.

So.........the categories and nominees for "Most" and "Best" are..... (suspenseful drum-rolls):
...

Most patient and kind Muslim:
- Victoria

...

iran was what i got when i googled

i watched an interesting documentary on pbs last night about us relations with iran

i wasnt aware that without the help of iran, america couldnt have gone into afghanistan at all after 911

america repaid their help by almost immediately declaring iran one of the axis of evil

Victoria,

Wa-alakum-asalam,

Thank you for the advice. Bye the way i try not to take the comments personaly. Infact try to judge them on merit. MOSTY THEY DON'T REPLY TO THE RAISED QUESTIONS, THE REASON I BELIEVE, THEY DON'T HAVE POSITIVE ANSWERES TO THE PRESIDENTED HISTORY OR THEIR PRESENT OPEN HYPOCRITICAL FACTS.

Note: I apologize for the typing mistake in my quick replies/posts.

Few corrections regarding my post in "Islam and Voilenc" about Indian muslim history.

1- Indian Hindu's still praise Muslim Rulers (I typed rules), thier justice and fairness. You can watch their countless historical movies and documentoris about Muslim rulers, made in recent times.
2- If India was not divided and still united then its todays Muslim population is 530 million plus(I wrongly typed 5300),
including present India 1 billion plus +
-Pakistan 160 million plus muslims
-Bangladesh 170 million plus muslims
3- Today in present India there are
-700 million Hindus
-200 million plus muslim (of there own race with no political plate form, even in one out of its 26 states)
-And 100 million Christians/other minoroties.

REST YOU CAN READ IN THE THREAD "ISLAM AND VIOLENC" topic posted in April Or May month, I guess.

AND ABOUT USA/UK OIL CONTROL, THE NAME OF ONE COMPANY IS "OPEC" THE SECOND ONE YOU CAN FIND ON INTERNET. THERE ARE ONLY TWO!!

a salaamu alaikum moody- dont let them get you down on the islam and violence thread- just ignore them and their own hate will lose steam after awhile

thats why im ignoring it

peace

DOES ANY BODY SEE THE LINKS......
EVERY BODY DO.................
There is another AND MAIN reason of USA and UK running out of options and going MAD....

According to an international report.
- Annual world oil business is of 600 billion dollars.
-The five main exporters are
Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Iran, Iraq, Nigeria
-The whole world business to these countries is done in guess only one currency, guess which...US Dollars.
-The whole world oil business deals are done by only two major companies guess which countries owned them....NO.1 USA and NO.2 U.K.
-In another words the whole world oil business is in their control.
-And guess what in 2000 their past STRONG ALLY Iraq tried to switch the transaction through Euorpion Currency Euro. WELL POOR IRAQ.....
-And guess what Iran is trying to go to Euro Currency for the last 5 years. But couldn't due to complicatied international law...guess who is controlling?????

- Poor muslims demonized as terrorist by the MONSTORS....in Iran words

- Poor Saudi Arabia blackmailed by Americans of Israels threat. They recieve dollors against oil and gave it back to buy the secondry weopons from the enemy it self.......what a pitty...HALE AMERICA....HALE ISRAEL....HALE MONSTORS...I wonder after Iran is Nucked, who is going to be next in WW3 of America.....may be they fought between themselves at the end to get the richies...after all WW1 & WW2 were for the same reasons
- After WW2 importance of OIL was very clear to western world specially winner of war and in control USA. And there was a Jewish porblem at hand at that time as well. Two main issues
i- How to remove Jews from Europe..problem for Europions, SINCE YOU CAN EASILY EVEN GUESS ABOUT JEWS HISTORY NOW...WATCHING FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE
ii- Who will control the world wealth (Oil) of course the winners (USA & UK)
- No doubt now why the whole Europe is getting united, actually it is becoming their need to survive.....DON'T THEY ALSO WANT THEIR SHARE???

HYPOCRATES AND MONSTORS JUST DEMONIZING ISLAM AND MUSLIMS FOR THIER OWN GREED!!!!!!!!

Sorry,

Anon was me.

Moody,

Have patience my dear. The truth will out. You have most things right, but one big thing wrong:

1. American president lies about WMD – True
2. American president lies about torture – True
3. Propagating war on Islam and demonizing 1.6 million Muslims – True
4. Terrorists originate from areas terrorized by US_Israel war machines – True
5. American president is a hypocrite to blame Iran for trying to start WW-III, when in practice it is the terrorist state of US_Israel which is occupying Palestine and Iraq, slaughtering women and children by the thousands, driving millions of families into refugee camps, etc, etc, etc. - True
6. The US government is controlled by Jewish lobbyists – True
7. Muslim on Muslim Shia/Suni violence in Iraq is caused by US toppling the sovereign government, disbanding the security forces, and putting nothing in place – True
8. The suicide bombers/terrorists are people with no religion except revenge for homes being destroyed and families slaughtered – True
9. But the Jew/Christian/US agenda is clear, mad lust for land and oil – True
10. The World Trade Center was destroyed by US_Israel, not al-Qaeda – False

LIES UPON LIES,
DOES ANY BODY SEE THE LINKS, I GUESS EVERY BODY DOES!!!!!

- TYPE 9/11 on google and click. You will find all type of inquires made about it.
-Documentories about buldings bombed and burning but not collapsing LIKE TWIN TOWERS.
-Buildings demolished by controlled IMPLOSION like Twin towers.
-Pantagon plane crash hole. Where is the wings impact in that hole?? Where is the debry of plane? Is there any???
-American leader ship lies about Weopons of mass distruction and ALL THE LATER ATROCITIES.
-American leader ship lies about beyond LAW MUSLIM RENDITIONS/torture..what a civilized country laws.
-Propogating war against Islam and demonizing 1.6 billion peaceful muslims as Terrorists.
-Where Terrorists(retaliators/sucide bombers) are only originated from war torn massacred area by Jews/America which are very tiny part of muslim world but right in the middle/heart of it like,
- Palistine, (Where USA in announing WW3 after 60 years of occupation and distruction in its madness, treatening to nuck Iran). USA is controlled by its 60 million Jews plus addition to 60 million in Jerusalum. There lobbiest, media, financial institutions, weapon industry all controlled by Jews, thats why I guess they are ran out of options. And only thing they can see is the distruction of world...to gain profits/wealth/more madness.......
- Iraq (where now muslims killing muslims..not before the invasion.. but now yes fueled by USA who is keeping the fuel(oil).. still dollar and wall street is crashing down)
- Chachinia
- Afganistan
- Bosnia

Sucide bombers/ Terrorist are the breed of people who have no religion accept revenge, because their homes are distroyed, families are savaged.
Ask the US army, its an open secret!!!!!

But the Jew/Christian/US agenda is very clear....more madness....not willing to learn lesson from there own history.

I always wondered why the whole Europe after second WW gathered all the Jews and moved them out of Europe. I guess histroy is repeating in USA!!!!!!!!!

LIES UPON LIES,
DOES ANY BODY SEE THE LINKS, I GUESS EVERY BODY DOES!!!!!

- TYPE 9/11 on google and click. You will find all type of inquires made about it.
-Documentories about buldings bombed and burning but not collapsing LIKE TWIN TOWERS.
-Buildings demolished by controlled IMPLOSION like Twin towers.
-Pantagon plane crash hole. Where is the wings impact in that hole?? Where is the debry of plane? Is there any???
-American leader ship lies about Weopons of mass distruction and ALL THE LATER ATROCITIES.
-American leader ship lies about beyond LAW MUSLIM RENDITIONS/torture..what a civilized country laws.
-Propogating war against Islam and demonizing 1.6 billion peaceful muslims as Terrorists.
-Where Terrorists(retaliators/sucide bombers) are only originated from war torn massacred area by Jews/America which are very tiny part of muslim world but right in the middle/heart of it like,
- Palistine, (Where USA in announing WW3 after 60 years of occupation and distruction in its madness, treatening to nuck Iran). USA is controlled by its 60 million Jews plus addition to 60 million in Jerusalum. There lobbiest, media, financial institutions, weapon industry all controlled by Jews, thats why I guess they are ran out of options. And only thing they can see is the distruction of world...to gain profits/wealth/more madness.......
- Iraq (where now muslims killing muslims..not before the invasion.. but now yes fueled by USA who is keeping the fuel(oil).. still dollar and wall street is crashing down)
- Chachinia
- Afganistan
- Bosnia

Sucide bombers/ Terrorist are the breed of people who have no religion accept revenge, because their homes are distroyed, families are savaged.
Ask the US army, it an open secret!!!!!

But the Jew/Christian/US agenda is very clear....more madness....not willing to learn lesson from there own history.

I always wondered why the whole Europe gathered all the Jews and moved them out of Europe. I guess histroy is repeating in USA!!!!!!!!!

look at the link before you make conections in your head

its about larry craig you anonymous mook

Look out Victoria -Bill Maher is in on that 911 government conspiracy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxOljd9oOzo

By the way..How big of a LUNATIC are you?

I don't know, the CNN and Fox News (Joe Scarborough) videos were good, and scary. Thanks for the BBC link.

clearly my repertoire is quite limited

Yep, that's funny to me too Victoria. You've shown that to us before. It's hilarious. I'll let you watch funny videos like that to your hearts content, just stay away from the political/religious stuff. It's always phoney anyway.

this is totally off topic- i dont usually do youtube- but this is (to me) awfully funny

as bill maher notes- the funny part (to me) is chris matthews response

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brySeA4NNks&mode=related&search=Larry%20Craig%20Bill%20Clinton%201999

i dont usually agree with krauthammer- and im surprised at his lack of mention for the catalyst of this resolution.

here is a link to the bbc-
it deals with the armenian lobby
the resolution was drafted by a congressman form cal- i cant remember his name-

Across the country, Armenian-Americans have been lobbying politicians, and publicising their view of the massacres as genocide - a suggestion the Turkish government and most Turks furiously reject.

Historians are also divided on whether this was a case of genocide. More than 20 countries have formally recognised genocide against the Armenians, however.

Given that Armenians represent only about 1.5m of America's 300m population, what has won them such influence over the US Congress - and perhaps the nation's foreign policy?

Organised lobby

Part of the answer lies in the organisation and determination of the Armenian-American lobby groups, says Dr Svante Cornell, of the Central Asia-Caucasus Institute at Johns Hopkins University.
The Armenian National Committee of America (ANCA) and the Armenian Assembly of America (AAA) are among the most powerful.

Another factor is that the Armenian-American community is largely concentrated in important states such as California, Michigan and Massachusetts, Dr Cornell said.

"You have basically a number of places where the Armenian issue is very important in local politics - especially for anybody wanting to get elected in California," he said.

"The Turkish lobby is much less organised and much less rooted in an electorate than the Armenian lobby."

'Sobering' choice

Of course, the vote - with 27 for and 21 against - was also based on representatives' competing sets of principles.
Opening the debate, Tom Lantos, the committee's Democratic chairman, acknowledged that the resolution posed a "sobering" choice.

Supporters draw a parallel between the mass killing of Armenians and what is happening in the Darfur region of Sudan today - and say the US must speak now if it is to maintain credibility on human rights.

Dr Rouben Adalian, of the Armenian National Institute in Washington, told the BBC's World Today: "In a world where genocide continues to occur, there is something to be said about acknowledging past genocides as a way of preventing others."

'Close-knit community'

For Bryan Ardouny, executive director of the AAA, the passage of the resolution "was a historic step forward" in ending what he calls the "denial campaign" of the Turkish government.

We have a very vibrant, passionate, educated constituency that feels very strongly and passionately about this

Bryan Ardouny,
Armenian Assembly of America

Readers debate US vote

"We very much appreciate the support of the whole Armenian community around the country but also the members of Congress who stood their ground and voted yes for the resolution," he said.

The AAA has worked very closely with the sponsors and co-sponsors of the resolution, he said, as well as talking to members of Congress from both parties about the issue.

The close-knit Armenian-American diaspora has also been at work educating other communities and writing to politicians, Mr Ardouny said.

"The response has been great in terms of activism throughout the entire Armenian-American community," he said.

"One of the consequences of the genocide was that Armenians came to the US. My grandparents were genocide survivors - they came to this country, they got an education, they became part of the American fabric.

"We have a very vibrant, passionate, educated constituency that feels very strongly and passionately about this and the fact it's still being denied - this is something that's painful."

'Heavy blow'

Some people argue that it is not the place of legislators to decide history - especially on an issue as fiercely contested as this one.

The resolution is expected to come to the full House before the session adjourns on 16 November.

Back in 2000, a similar resolution failed when it was withdrawn from the floor of the then Republican-controlled House at the urging of then President Bill Clinton, who said it could put at risk American lives and further inflame tensions in the Middle East.

heres the link- i edited out only turksih response and things not related but you can read it yourself- (for the sake of brevity)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7040344.stm

there are also many links on that blog

taking that into account- i think mr krauthammer may want to revise his reasoning-

however i think the dems really blew it big time

that link provided to brasscheck above on the screens below there are many many interesting snips

i LIKED the youtube vids and im going to watch more

ive seen buildings imploded because i have nothing better to do-
and it looks like an implosian to em but im no engineer

having said that- in general i HATE youtube and i dont say hate much

having said THAT im going to find my favorite youtube link to share apropos of nothing at all except i think its funny

o- the bbc ,taking into account jordan and syrian statistics, put the displaced person igures at 4.2 million the other day

last month it was 4 million

http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/171.html

What do you think of this Victoria?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/18/AR2007101801579_pf.html

I think that I agree with Krauthammer for once.

More good news compliments of our favorite terrorist state US_Israel.

More than 1.1 million Iraqis have been internally displaced...according to numbers gathered by the Iraqi Red Crescent and the International Organization for Migration. In addition, at least two million Iraqis have fled the country, with the majority heading to Syria and Jordan.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/19/world/middleeast/19najaf.html?hp=&pagewanted=print

Hi Victoria,

Stay away from this YouTube nonsense my dear friend. It will rot your brain. Besides it’s just a bunch of happy horsesh*t. You know better than that.

might as well complete the set-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeSDOb7NcgE&mode=related&search=

theres also a series on the federal reserve

thats strange- i posted 2 links and other words

but only one link and half the words showed up after my blog was held

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSW1x_h4Kfo&mode=related&search=

ok, i guess im not sleeping- that was pretty compelling-
heres the second

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECMJ2LBK90Q&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSW1x_h4Kfo&mode=related&search=
and 3rd

ok, i guess im not sleeping- that was pretty compelling-
heres the second

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECMJ2LBK90Q&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSW1x_h4Kfo&mode=related&search=
and 3rd

ok, i guess im not sleeping- that was pretty compelling-
heres the second

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECMJ2LBK90Q&mode=related&search=

have you seen any of these?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_E4N5YIycI
i only started but cant stay up-= ill watch them tomorrow-

also- did you see bush speak yesterday and mention world war 3 and then say that if anyone attacks israel they are attacking the US?

it had pundits spinning on their heads

actually i was looking for a vid of it-and came upon this instead

there are 4 for 911 and 5 for the federal reserve

its called zeitgeist and keeps getting pulled from youtube
peace

OK folks, let’s get back on topic.

And the question is: On the anniversary of 9/11, what message would you like to send terrorists?

Well here is the message for the terrorist states of the USA and Israel:

1. USA, get out of Iraq; leave Iraq to the Iraqis.
2. Israel, get out of Palestine; leave Palestine to the Palestinians.

Here is the map that is relevant:

http://www.ccmep.org/delegations/maps/palestine.html

The one on the left represents the relative ownership of Palestinian and Jewish land in 1946, prior to the illegitimate UN partition. Since, Palestine was not the UN’s to give away; this is the map we will go back to.

Here is a summary of the Brief History of Palestine:

http://www.cyberus.ca/~baker/pal_hist.htm

Note that just prior to the turn of the 20th century, the total population of Palestine was 500,000 of whom 47,000 were Jews who owned 0.5% of the land.

In 1917, at the time of the illegal and immoral Balfour Declaration, and after 22 years of Zionist immigration, the total population was 700,000 of which 56,000 (8%) were Jews.

In 1947, after 30 more years of Zionist immigration, the illegal UN partition of Palestine allocated 47% of the land to the Arab Palestinians who accounted for 70% of the population and owned 92% of the land.

In 2005, the Jewish population stood at about 5,200,000 (50.7%) compared to the 5,056,000 (49.3%) Arab Palestinian population.

So clearly, even Israelis can see that the only fair and equitable thing to do is to evacuate the 5,153,000 illegitimate Zionist Jews and descendents to Texas, leaving the Jewish population at the original legitimate 47,000 that were there at the turn of the 20th century. We could leave a few more than that to account for normal population growth demographics, without the illegal and immoral Zionist immigration.

Terrorists aren't funny, but terrorist jokes are.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJUmXpqIy4w

Moslims taking over America via the sword?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=WqzYhs8NsxM

Moslims taking over America via the sword?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=WqzYhs8NsxM

wow deb, if you and i can find accordance there may be hope for us all yet...

yes it does make good sense to me deb
peace

Victoria wrote:

"so- the point was made that the usa is acting in a very hypocritical way-
what say you?"

I have already made my disagreement with US policy on this issue. Every nation has a right to defend itself. USA cannot and should not in principle tell that attacked nation (in this case Turkey) on the specifics.

USA did decide to attack Iraq, for whatever reason it may be. USA did not listen to the wisdom of the European nations and UN. It made the case anyway - which was very sloppy. Why should it now make Turkey refrain from attacking the PKK militants ?

Well, I am not an expert on US foreign policy. But such positions do diminish USA's image and credibility. Other nations would start thinking that USA's policy is equivalent to: "All men are equal, but some are more equal than others".

Makes sense, Victoria ?

i stated-

"i think, even you, with your dislike of muslims in general- can see the base prejudice here"

well- thats not actually racist deb-
it may be an unfair observation on my part- but theres no racism implicit- just an accusation of dislike- i guess-
not the same thing at all

alright deb- point well taken- its the religion you hate and discredit at every opportunity, and not the people that you dislike

no problem-

ok- so sorry for offending your sensibilities-
since it is always muslims (including me) that you insult- it is difficult to make the distinction between the people you insult and the religion you insult-

so- the point was made that the usa is acting in a very hypocritical way-
what say you?

Victoria wrote:

"i think, even you, with your dislike of muslims in genreral- can see the base prejudice here"

That's really a racist remark, in my view, from you. I am not what you are writing here. I have no respect for a doctrine that I think is basically intolerant and violent.

I have no dislike of Muslims. They are humans as you and other non-Muslims. However, I have no patience with Islam. Its a doctrine of hate for non-Muslims. I dislike Islam. I dislike Maoism and Stalinism, but I don't hate Chinese and Russians.

exactly deb- usa did not bomb or punish germany for disagreeing with it.

but, turkey didnt disagree with the usa-
turkey is just acting in its own rights

and yet, the us decided in a congresional committee the other day to accuse turkey of genocide in armenia.

something turkey has contended that was a war with casualties on both sides.

NO ONE questions that ataturk had some crazy ideas about returning turkey to its "turkishness"

he eradicated the alphabet, and did the strangest population swap ever seen- whic made just about everybody unhappy-

turks whod lived in greece and surrpounding areas for generations were kicked out and returned to turkey

greeks and armenians whod lived in turkey for generations were kicked out

turkey invited scholars of any kind from all over the world 10 years ago, and had and does have all of its archives open to any who care to investigate it.

no one has bothered to accept that offer

the first president ofarmneia from the time mentioned-1915- wrote his autobiography-

his account as an armenian and leader wildly differs from the us opinion released

and the untied states has BANNED HIS BOOK FORM ENTERING US SHORES!!!!!!

do you find it possible that turkey is being punished and the us is abusing its strength
because turkey has elected all muslim leaders and has been proving itself a successful democracy?

on its own and without any input from the usa?

this "armenian genocide" happened 92 years ago!
in 1915!
and dont you think someone should have looked at those archives first? before making such a declaration?

why doesnt the usa call darfur a genocide?

i think, even you, with your dislike of muslims in genreral- can see the base prejudice here

Victoria:

If Turkey is gunning down PKK separatists who are killing the innocent, unarmed Turks, then that is good. A country's first obligation is to provide security to its own citizens regardless of color and creed. Foreign policy matters come later.

I am sorry, but I don't agree with USA's interference/advice/chastisement in Turkey's internal matters.

If USA disagrees with its ally, so be it. Germany's Gerhard Schroder disagreed with USA very strongly on the Iraq issue. So, what ? Did USA bomb Germany on that score ?

In a civilized democracy, envisioned by Thomas Jefferson, we all have equal rights to agree to disagree.

DEB- youve repeatedly condemned terrorists and have been strong in your support of anit-terrorist precautions.

what do you think about the US forbidding Turkey to pursue the PKK terrorists who just killed 15 soldiers across their own border into northern iraq?

do you think the Turks have the right to defend themselves against terroris attacks?

they have provided support, access, and strategic use of their land for the US and have been a stalwart ally.

This argument always leaves me disappointed in the human race as a whole. It always sounds like people are arguing over their favorite football or baseball team rather than defending their beliefs. Why must people try to press their beliefs onto to others?

Try this, believe in yourself and others, and the creator will help you all. Have faith in mankind as a whole and strive for good things for ALL, and the creator will help you all.

If you force the creator to take sides, then everyone loses. For he takes no sides. We are ALL his/her/it's children.

Peace

Religion is like a batch of prunes.

Ingest too much and it will always give you diarrhea.

Religion is like a batch of prunes.

Ingest too much and it will always give you diarrhea.

Religion is like a batch of prunes.

Ingest too much and it will always give you diarrhea.

Gentle Rick:

Israeli lobby is doing it right. Jews and Pagans (read Hindus) are the worst enemies of Islam as declared by Quran (005:082). It states

YUSUFALI: Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.

That's why Jews and Hindus are the most hated by the Muslims. The Jews have, of course, fought back. The Hindus are cowards who cannot retaliate unlike what Hermit states as "overreaction". So, what Israeli lobby is doing by taking help of USA is good. Their good effort must be cherished, instead you are condmning them.

- gentile deb

HAHAHAHA - The Islamic Propaganda League is trying to take the light off their own crimes by pointing out all the ills of others.

Only problem is - though most all text have ancient and unsavory dictates:

It is Muslims who catch our attention by
acting like animals in the here and now.
Most others gave this up centuries ago.

Nice Try Desperadoes:

You're too funny!

And now, we return to today's "Lovely Talmud" episode. Enjoy!
A Jewish man is obligated to say the following prayer every day: Thank you God for not making me a Gentile, a woman or a slave. Shabbath 86a-86b.
Besides the Talmud being a book promoting hate towards non-Jews, it also promotes violence and self torment on the Jews as well;

Victoria and Deb,

Here is a good article that highlights what should be the focus of the Islamaphobes: the Israeli Lobby that is pushing us over the edge of the abyss. Here are some excerpts:

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=26308§ionid=3510302

‘In my analysis, which is shared, for example, by Ilan Pappe, Israel's leading “revisionist” (which means honest) historian, the answer is that it's mainly the Zionist tail that wags the American dog. As I demonstrate in my epic, two-volume book, Zionism: The Real Enemy of The Jews, it is a fact that, with the arguable exception of Lyndon Johnson, every American President, including the idiot in the White House at present, tried to draw red lines that Israel should not cross; and on most occasions Israel put two fingers up and crossed them.

There is no mystery about why the Zionist lobby (AIPAC plus) has such power. What passes for democracy in America is for sale to the highest bidder, and one of the highest bidders, and certainly the best organized and the most effective, is the Zionist lobby, now in association with Christian evangelical fundamentalism and parts if not all of the MIC (Military Industrial Complex). The Zionist lobby has three main weapons of influence:

- money, apparently unlimited, to fund election campaigns (candidates who offend Zionism can be and are destroyed - outspent);

- the organized Jewish vote in close election races (in half a dozen critical constituencies); and

- the use of the obscenity of the Nazi Holocaust as a blackmail card to silence criticism of Israel and suppress informed and honest debate. (On this front the Zionist lobby is assisted by the fact that, out of fear of offending Zionism, the mainstream media in America and throughout the mainly Gentile Judeo-Christian or Western world is complicit in Zionism's suppression of the truth of history. What, really, does the media fear? Punishment by the withdrawal of advertising revenue).’

“As it states in the Quran: ‘Oh you who believe, stand up firmly for justice, as witnesses to God, even if it be against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be against rich or poor; for God can best protect both. Do not follow any passion, lest you not be just. And if you distort or decline to do justice, verily God is well-acquainted with all that you do.’” (Quran 4:135)

“As it states in the Quran: ‘Oh you who believe, stand up firmly for justice, as witnesses to God, even if it be against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be against rich or poor; for God can best protect both. Do not follow any passion, lest you not be just. And if you distort or decline to do justice, verily God is well-acquainted with all that you do.’” (Quran 4:135)

I am a law-and-order conservative. I find this recent disclosure on WP,

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/09/AR2007100900791.html?hpid%3Dtopnews&sub=AR

quite disturbing. With clueless fools that are now at the helm in the GOP, such compromise of information is extremely sad and paints the "tough guy" (Uncle Sam) with a soft underbelly. This criticism assumes that the news in the link iks true, and not some propaganda.

What is the message to 9/11 terrorists ? Well, USA is clueless in defending itself and often engages in self-destructive acts.

Women Vote in Islam (1,500 years ago!)

When did the east or the west asked women for their vote?

No east no west, Islam is the best.

Quran 60:12

O Prophet! If believing women come unto thee, taking oath of allegiance unto thee that they will ascribe nothing as partner unto Allah, and will neither steal nor commit adultery nor kill their children, nor produce any lie that they have devised between their hands and feet, nor disobey thee in what is right, then accept their allegiance and ask Allah to forgive them. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

"What West need to Know About Islam"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fC7MX8eksHM

Islam has declared war on the West..

Muhammed in the bible - Ahmed Deedat
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Hhazm0UdlTc

Women status in Quran & Bibles - Truthful Comparison

http://youtube.com/watch?v=L37ntR-9MI0

Status of Women in Islam Part 1
http://youtube.com/watch?v=wn0jJJ4qFuE

Status of Women in Islam Part 2
http://youtube.com/watch?v=-LKgCvXCNHQ

Dear Humans,

Can you show me the word Judaism in the OT?
Can you show me the word Christianity in the OT/NT?

Why follow a religion whose name is absent from its own holly text?!

There is only one true religion: Islam.

Just follow the Holly Bible and it will show you the way.
Go back to the original text (bypassing the Evangelists!)

Here is my proof:

See Verse 16 in Ch 5 of Song of Songs at this location
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt3005.htm

Look at the Hebrew text. You will see the Name Mohammad (מַחֲמַדִּים) there! Just remove the "i" (י) and "m" (ם) used for making a noun plural.

Follow Mohammad (in Hebrew מַחֲמַד )

For more, http://www.jews-for-allah.org/Muhammad-and-Judaism/the-Jewish-Bible/Muhammad-in-Songs.htm

And now, we return to today's "Lovely Talmud" episode. Enjoy!

A Jewish man is obligated to say the following prayer every day: Thank you God for not making me a Gentile, a woman or a slave. Shabbath 86a-86b.

Besides the Talmud being a book promoting hate towards non-Jews, it also promotes violence and self torment on the Jews as well;

Erubin 21b. Whosoever disobeys the rabbis deserves death and will be punished by being boiled in hot excrement in hell.

Insults Against Mary the Jew, Sanhedrin 106a . Says Jesus' mother was a who*e: "She who was the descendant of princes and governors played the harlot with carpenters." Also in footnote #2 to Shabbath 104b it is stated that in the "uncensored" text of the Talmud it is written that Jesus mother, "Mary the hairdresser," had s*x with many men.

Thomas Carlyle in 'Heroes and Hero Worship and the Heroic in History,' 1840

"The lies (Western slander) which well-meaning zeal has heaped round this man (Muhammad) are disgraceful to ourselves only."

"A silent great soul, one of that who cannot but be earnest. He was to kindle the world, the world’s Maker had ordered so."

A. S. Tritton in 'Islam,' 1951

The picture of the Muslim soldier advancing with a sword in one hand and the Qur'an in the other is quite false.

---------------------------------
De Lacy O'Leary in 'Islam at the Crossroads,' London, 1923.

History makes it clear, however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myths that historians have ever repeated.

---------------------------------
Gibbon in 'The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' 1823

The good sense of Muhammad despised the pomp of royalty. The Apostle of God submitted to the menial offices of the family; he kindled the fire; swept the floor; milked the ewes; and mended with his own hands his shoes and garments. Disdaining the penance and merit of a hermit, he observed without effort of vanity the abstemious diet of an Arab.

-------------------------------------

Edward Gibbon and Simon Oakley in ‘History of the Saracen Empire,’ London, 1870

"The greatest success of Mohammad’s life was effected by sheer moral force."

“It is not the propagation but the permanency of his religion that deserves our wonder, the same pure and perfect impression which he engraved at Mecca and Medina is preserved after the revolutions of twelve centuries by the Indian, the African and the Turkish proselytes of the Koran....The Mahometans have uniformly withstood the temptation of reducing the object of their faith and devotion to a level with the senses and imagination of man. ‘I believe in One God and Mahomet the Apostle of God’ is the simple and invariable profession of Islam. The intellectual image of the Deity has never been degraded by any visible idol; the honors of the prophet have never transgressed the measure of human virtue, and his living precepts have restrained the gratitude of his disciples within the bounds of reason and religion.”

--------------------------------------------
Lane-Poole in 'Speeches and Table Talk of the Prophet Muhammad'

He was the most faithful protector of those he protected, the sweetest and most agreeable in conversation. Those who saw him were suddenly filled with reverence; those who came near him loved him; they who described him would say, "I have never seen his like either before or after." He was of great taciturnity, but when he spoke it was with emphasis and deliberation, and no one could forget what he said...

-------------------------------
Annie Besant in 'The Life and Teachings of Mohammad,' Madras, 1932.

It is impossible for anyone who studies the life and character of the great Prophet of Arabia, who knew how he taught and how he lived, to feel anything but reverence for that mighty Prophet, one of the great messengers of the Supreme. And although in what I put to you I shall say many things which may be familiar to many, yet I myself feel, whenever I reread them, a new way of admiration, a new sense of reverence for that mighty Arabian teacher.

-----------------------------------------
W.C. Taylor in 'The History of Muhammadanism and its Sects'

So great was his liberality to the poor that he often left his household unprovided, nor did he content himself with relieving their wants, he entered into conversation with them, and expressed a warm sympathy for their sufferings. He was a firm friend and a faithful ally.

http://www.jews-for-allah.org/Why-Believe-in-Allah/What-non-Muslims-sayabout-Muhammad.htm

Reverend Bosworth Smith in 'Muhammad and Muhammadanism,' London, 1874.

"Head of the State as well as the Church, he was Caesar and Pope in one; but he was Pope without the Pope's pretensions, and Caesar without the legions of Caesar, without a standing army, without a bodyguard, without a police force, without a fixed revenue. If ever a man ruled by a right divine, it was Muhammad, for he had all the powers without their supports. He cared not for the dressings of power. The simplicity of his private life was in keeping with his public life."

"In Mohammadanism every thing is different here. Instead of the shadowy and the mysterious, we have history....We know of the external history of Muhammad....while for his internal history after his mission had been proclaimed, we have a book absolutely unique in its origin, in its preservation....on the Substantial authority of which no one has ever been able to cast a serious doubt."

Edward Montet, 'La Propagande Chretienne et ses Adversaries Musulmans,' Paris 1890. (Also in T.W. Arnold in 'The Preaching of Islam,' London 1913.)

"Islam is a religion that is essentially rationalistic in the widest sense of this term considered etymologically and historically....the teachings of the Prophet, the Qur'an has invariably kept its place as the fundamental starting point, and the dogma of unity of God has always been proclaimed therein with a grandeur a majesty, an invariable purity and with a note of sure conviction, which it is hard to find surpassed outside the pale of Islam....A creed so precise, so stripped of all theological complexities and consequently so accessible to the ordinary understanding might be expected to possess and does indeed possess a marvelous power of winning its way into the consciences of men."

Dr. Gustav Weil in 'History of the Islamic Peoples'

Muhammad was a shining example to his people. His character was pure and stainless. His house, his dress, his food - they were characterized by a rare simplicity. So unpretentious was he that he would receive from his companions no special mark of reverence, nor would he accept any service from his slave which he could do for himself. He was accessible to all and at all times. He visited the sick and was full of sympathy for all. Unlimited was his benevolence and generosity as also was his anxious care for the welfare of the community.

Alphonse de LaMartaine in 'Historie de la Turquie,' Paris, 1854.

"Never has a man set for himself, voluntarily or involuntarily, a more sublime aim, since this aim was superhuman; to subvert superstitions which had been imposed between man and his Creator, to render God unto man and man unto God; to restore the rational and sacred idea of divinity amidst the chaos of the material and disfigured gods of idolatry, then existing. Never has a man undertaken a work so far beyond human power with so feeble means, for he (Muhammad) had in the conception as well as in the execution of such a great design, no other instrument than himself and no other aid except a handful of men living in a corner of the desert. Finally, never has a man accomplished such a huge and lasting revolution in the world, because in less than two centuries after its appearance, Islam, in faith and in arms, reigned over the whole of Arabia, and conquered, in God's name, Persia Khorasan, Transoxania, Western India, Syria, Egypt, Abyssinia, all the known continent of Northern Africa, numerous islands of the Mediterranean Sea, Spain, and part of Gaul.

"If greatness of purpose, smallness of means, and astonishing results are the three criteria of a human genius, who could dare compare any great man in history with Muhammad? The most famous men created arms, laws, and empires only. They founded, if anything at all, no more than material powers which often crumbled away before their eyes. This man moved not only armies, legislations, empires, peoples, dynasties, but millions of men in one-third of the then inhabited world; and more than that, he moved the altars, the gods, the religions, the ideas, the beliefs and the souls.

"On the basis of a Book, every letter which has become law, he created a spiritual nationality which blend together peoples of every tongue and race. He has left the indelible characteristic of this Muslim nationality the hatred of false gods and the passion for the One and Immaterial God. This avenging patriotism against the profanation of Heaven formed the virtue of the followers of Muhammad; the conquest of one-third the earth to the dogma was his miracle; or rather it was not the miracle of man but that of reason.

"The idea of the unity of God, proclaimed amidst the exhaustion of the fabulous theogonies, was in itself such a miracle that upon it's utterance from his lips it destroyed all the ancient temples of idols and set on fire one-third of the world. His life, his meditations, his heroic revelings against the superstitions of his country, and his boldness in defying the furies of idolatry, his firmness in enduring them for fifteen years in Mecca, his acceptance of the role of public scorn and almost of being a victim of his fellow countrymen: all these and finally, his flight his incessant preaching, his wars against odds, his faith in his success and his superhuman security in misfortune, his forbearance in victory, his ambition, which was entirely devoted to one idea and in no manner striving for an empire; his endless prayers, his mystic conversations with God, his death and his triumph after death; all these attest not to an imposture but to a firm conviction which gave him the power to restore a dogma. This dogma was twofold the unity of God and the immateriality of God: the former telling what God is, the latter telling what God is not; the one overthrowing false gods with the sword, the other starting an idea with words.

"Philosopher, Orator, Apostle, Legislator, Conqueror of Ideas, Restorer of Rational beliefs.... The founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one spiritual empire that is Muhammad. As regards all standards by which human greatness may be measured, we may well ask, is there any man greater than he?"

Mahatma Gandhi, statement published in 'Young India,'1924.

I wanted to know the best of the life of one who holds today an undisputed sway over the hearts of millions of mankind.... I became more than ever convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the Prophet the scrupulous regard for pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and followers, his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and in his own mission. These and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted every obstacle. When I closed the second volume (of the Prophet's biography), I was sorry there was not more for me to read of that great life.

Sir George Bernard Shaw in 'The Genuine Islam,' Vol. 1, No. 8, 1936.

"If any religion had the chance of ruling over England, nay Europe within the next hundred years, it could be Islam."

“I have always held the religion of Muhammad in high estimation because of its wonderful vitality. It is the only religion which appears to me to possess that assimilating capacity to the changing phase of existence which can make itself appeal to every age. I have studied him - the wonderful man and in my opinion for from being an anti-Christ, he must be called the Savior of Humanity."

"I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness: I have prophesied about the faith of Muhammad that it would be acceptable to the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of today.

Rick,

Its rawmeat alright. I have some news for you, again.

Please check out the two links from Times of India that comments about the Talibanization of some pockets in India.

The actual story is at the link:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/2437712.cms

The next interesting are the comments on this news by some Muslims and non-Muslims and one of them is a Muslim woman (like Victoria) and settled in USA. Read these comments at:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/opinions/2437712.cms#top0

Well, what do you think ? I am just making it up about "moderate Muslims" ?

P.S.: For some reason, my posts from yesterday don't show up on this blog. Maybe I am being censored.

I Am speechless!!!!

Jewish Racism towards Non-Jews as expressed in the Talmud

"The modern Jew is the product of the Talmud..."
"Babylonian Talmud", published by the Boston Talmud Society, p. XII

The Jews refer to the remainder of Earths inhabitants, the non-Jewish peoples, as "Gentiles", "Goyim". Let's see what the Jewish Talmud teaches the Jews concerning the non-Jewish majority, i.e. those who are not part of Jahve's "Chosen People":

O My GOD!!!

"The Jews are called human beings, but the non-Jews are not humans. They are beasts."

Talmud: Baba mezia, 114b

"The Akum (non-Jew) is like a dog. Yes, the scripture teaches to honor the the dog more than the non-Jew."

Ereget Raschi Erod. 22 30

"Even though God created the non-Jew they are still animals in human form. It is not becoming for a Jew to be served by an animal. Therfore he will be served by animals in human form."

Midrasch Talpioth, p. 255, Warsaw 1855

"A pregnant non-Jew is no better than a pregnant animal."

Coschen hamischpat 405

"The souls of non-Jews come from impure sprits and are called pigs."

Jalkut Rubeni gadol 12b

"Although the non-Jew has the same body structure as the Jew, they compare with the Jew like a monkey to a human."

Schene luchoth haberith, p. 250 b

"If you eat with a Gentile, it is the same as eating with a dog."

Tosapoth, Jebamoth 94b

"If a Jew has a non-Jewish servant or maid who dies, one should not express sympathy to the Jew. You should tell the Jew: "God will replace 'your loss', just as if one of his oxen or asses had died"."

Jore dea 377, 1

"Sexual intercourse between Gentiles is like intercourse between animals."

Talmud Sanhedrin 74b

"It is permitted to take the body and the life of a Gentile."

Sepher ikkarim III c 25

"It is the law to kill anyone who denies the Torah. The Christians belong to the denying ones of the Torah."

Coschen hamischpat 425 Hagah 425. 5

"A heretic Gentile you may kill outright with your own hands."

Talmud, Abodah Zara, 4b

"Every Jew, who spills the blood of the godless (non-Jews), is doing the same as making a sacrifice to God."

Talmud: Bammidber raba c 21 & Jalkut 772

Jewish children send 'love' messages
to Lebanese children
Pictures!!!

look at the real terrorists!

http://www.radioislam.org/jewish-photos/index.htm

Women. Judaism, and Islam

http://www.jews-for-allah.org/women-Judaism-and-Islam/

testing

Listen to this mp3

http://media.snunit.k12.il/kodeshm/mp3/t3005.mp3

recording of a Jewish recital
of their scripture. Seek to time 02:14

Recognize the Name MOHAMMAD?

For more, http://www.jews-for-allah.org/Muhammad-and-Judaism/

testing

Listen to this mp3

http://media.snunit.k12.il/kodeshm/mp3/t3005.mp3

recording of a Jewish recital
of their scripture. Seek to time 02:14

Recognize the Name MOHAMMAD?

For more, http://www.jews-for-allah.org/Muhammad-and-Judaism/

Here’s some raw meat for you Deb:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/07/AR2007100701031_pf.html

Deb,

There you again, still trying to tar all Muslims with the same broad brush used for the nut jobs. It just doesn’t fit the typical Muslim we see in our own country’s Muslim community. Don’t use this tired old hysterical and bigoted view to try to limit Muslim immigration to our country, or expel those who are already here.

Islam at its core (infrastructure), is actually very violent and intolerant. The exterior (superstructure) is probably shaped according to the culture of the place and times.

However, the bedrock is fundamentalist. Witness this: a Muslim (moderate/radical) is obligated to hold Muhammad as their ideal human being/leader. Well, that speaks volumes because Robert Spencer's biography of Muhammad, as Spencer claims is from the authentic Muslim sources (sunnah, hadith, Quran), which reputed Islamic scholars have not challenged since millenia, portrays an extremely violent and intolerant man. At times the biography reads like a religious zealot consumed by hatred for anything that is outside Islam. He is even reported to have said that he has been commanded by Allah to use violence till the whole world accepts Islam.

For this man, with such a level of fanaticism, to be the revered leader of 1.5 billion, is scary. But, that's what is happening. Relgious leaders in the Islamic community, and religious scholars (Grand Mufti) who can pass fatwas, have always upheld such actions of Muhammad as adorable.

In Jammu and Kashmir, India, the Chief Minister of the state (under Indian rule) has come under a fatwa. The poor fellow, on the Gandhi's celebration (Jayanti) made the mistake of suggesting that people should follow Gandhi's principles of "non-violence". The result was a backlash.

The entire report is available at the link:

http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/oct/06kash.htm

Islam cannot tolerate anything that would diminish its supoeriority. Its a doctrine of zealous bigotry.

Silly me, I forgot to give the link to the Lou WMS post at 2:01 PM. It’s on the Hitchens Subtle, Lethal Poison of Religion thread.
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/guestvoices/2007/09/hitchens_1/allcomments.html

Victoria, Deb,

Check out this thread, the Lou WMS post at 2:01 PM, 10/5/07.

really deb- back to name calling?

so much for inteigent discourse.
what was i thinking?

Victoria wrote:

"deb, what am i? an idiot?"

Well, if you say so then .... But, again you wrote as:

"your WHOLE POINT was that he painted the goddesses, and you implied no recoure was taken."

NO, THAT WAS NOT MY WHOLE POINT. You may think so, but that's a figment of your imagination. Don't make such false statements. Read (or read several times) to find out what explicitly I griped about in my last post. Maybe have someone else help you to do so.

You need help comprehending, Victoria.

Allah Hafiz,

wa'saalaam,

Deb

deb- you sure do get off topic-

the difference is obvious-

btw- were the pctures by this artist ugly? represhesible?
were they mocking or cruel derogatory?
in other words, was his intention to degrade hinduism or celebrate beauty?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
" He thus defiled the Hindu beliefs and denigrated the senitments of the majority population. Had Hindus painted Muhammad's private lives with his wives under the same artistic pretext, what would have happened ? Can you guess ?"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

well, what did happen deb?
HE WAS ARRESTED AND CHARGED WITH HURTING THE SENTIMENTS (not denigrating) of the indian hindus!

deb, what am i? an idiot?

this is the internet!

your WHOLE POINT was that he painted the goddesses, and you implied no recoure was taken.

well there was a reaction- a legal one.

his art is beautiful deb- it really is.
if your countrymen didnt see fit to convict him, why do you?

if someone starts out in art to depict the ugliness in soemthing,(like goya and the spanish war for instance), well- is someone gong to tell me that war is inherently beautiful?

that ugliness come through th artwork.
in goya's case- it was apparent and also a social statement which people responded to on an elemental level.

he also did the same thing with poverty. poverty is also an ugly human condition.

now lets take the goddesses.
godesses by their very nature represent beauty and all that is fine in humanity (especially women)

i also noticed he did 67 paintings on one cine actress- that indicates an obsessive path to perfect what he considered beauty.
(in an artist thats a wonderful thing)

all of his other paintings show his drive to depict what is beautiful- notice his soft buddhas in gentle colors-
look at the wild unrestrained passion in his horse
this is nto a guy who is trying to make a social statement on hinduism, but is trying to elevate the beauty and elegance of women.
look at the joyful carefree group of women in an intricate dance

all fine and lovely deb

i couldnt find the paintings of the godesses
are they ugly? or beautiful?

now if some artist somewhere wants to depict some prurient or salacious painting of (even the Prophetpbuh) and their intent is to ridicule and deride-
that ugliness will become apparent in their "art" too.

and the art willnot copel anyone to anything other than ugliness of spirit.

personally- i dont cosider such people artists but sociopaths desparate for attention

for instance, i dont want to feel your pain, your mania, your hatred.

go get therapy, and when you have something elevating or fine to express- THEN pick up your media of expression.

til then keep it inside of you where it belongs
because images and art ARE SO VERY compelling

the artist has a responsibilty to the audience

what youre suggesting sounds like what i call art therapy

spomeone has issues with islam/ go make some ugly art, and those with ugly hearts may celebrate its ugliness for a minute

in 50 years someone will find it and gesso over it or discard it

so what a senaky misrepresentation you make deb-
surely you must have known that the artist WAS charged.
so your contention falls apart

go make some ugly hearted art if you want
actually it is the hallmark of the mediocre artist (like rushdie) to latch onto an emotional issue and exploit it to promote what would likely otherwise be an unremarkable career

i think he had one good book in him midnights children, and has proven in history that he is a mediocre storyteller so lets put him on the shelf with the harlequin romances (maybe thats harsh)

im not going to encourage you to make some ugly art deb, theres already enough of that out there
go look at the manhattan galleries one day

amd how you got to immigration is something only you know

but im not getting deported
im not going anyhwere unless i choose
not because you choose

well, at least you had sense enough to recognize that your contention was wrong and i am indeed right

but if you want to find thoses offensive paintings id be interested in seeing them
but i have access to the internet too so i might just do that

Victoria,

You are so full of fanaticism, that despite your apparent charm (?) - with which you might have shrouded other readers (except me) on this forum -doesn't work.

Your dogged/compulsive negationism and strident refusal to reason just validates my hardlined position against Muslims. Let me clarify.

Your whole argument is that Hussain can draw the nude pictures of goddesses because the Khajurao temples contain such fugurines. That is factually correct.

However it is a matter of equity, which I had emphasized in my post. If Hussain (as a Muslim)can draw pictures of nude Hindu goddesses, why can't I draw equally provocative pictures of Muhammad and his private lives with his 13 wives under the guise of artistic freedoms. I am NOT at all offended by anyone drawing nude pictures of the Hindu goddesses. You have correctly observed that nude pictures/images of Hindu goddeses existed 1000 years ago on the exterior of the Khajurao temples. I AM offended, however, because Hussain (a Muslim) has the right to do so, but apparently I (as a Hindu) don't, or if I do then I would be held guilty (under existing laws) of inciting communal hatred and mayhem, bedlam by Muslims in retaliation would follow. (Just as it happened in the Danish cartoon incidents.)

Anyway, without waiting for your babble and garbage arguments, that reek with religious and cultural superiority of Islam over other religions and cultures, I submit that America and Europe must eventually prepare to repatriate all Muslims out of their countries.

Muslim immigration to USA must be stopped. Islam is a vicious, barbaric religion and most Muslims like yourself only support the discrimination that Islam postulates.

The 2008 election year agenda should also focus on these fundamental issues regarding Islamic and American values, and their political impacts.

Unless the role of Islam in the US society is constitutionally de-emphasized, the very existence of USA shall become a major problem in the near future.

deb- again disconnect reasoning and no relevant answer to the many many points

especially nonsensical is your example of the artist hwo depiccts goddesses nude when the erotic statues of kajuraho temples have 100s of depictions of 'erotic' staues in groups in many many active sex positions

someone already beat him to it deb
1000s of years ago

Kajuraho Temples in India

Khajuraho Temples are the gift of love, India has bestowed on the world. Intricately carved with detailed sculptures, the Temples of Khajuraho displays some very unique form of art and architecture, very rare in others parts of the world. The speechless sculptures of Khajuraho speak volumes of the ancient India civilisation.

Khajuraho showcases the art of conjugation, which HAS LONG BEEN UNDERSTOOD in India. The sculptures represent the different positions of creation and are splendid way to let you learn some basics of human evolution.

The temples are unusual in the sense that the subject matter here is sex, rather than just idol worship, thus it reflects that the necessity and importance of this basic instinct has been well-paid in the Indian context.

Architecture :
The wall sculptured images, most of them are of couples engaged in love, or to better say, in compromising positions. But the architectural value is never compromising, it's one of the best in terms of expression of theme and structural competencies. There are 20 temples remaining, and they are divided into three major groups of mainly two sects, Hinduism and Buddhism. The Kendriya Mahadeva temple represents the best sculptures and is the leader among the gamut.

http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images?p=EROTIC+SCULPTURES+OF+INDIA&sp=1&fr2=sp-top&fr=yfp-t-501&ei=UTF-8&_bcrumb=81d80e911aa220e0b8ec06da30cca962%2C1191407052&save=0&ei=UTF-8&SpellState=n-3370543756_q-bo.LT.mB7aoZj3Bp9DMBHwAAAA@@

I HAD TO TURN OFF THE SAFE FILTER TO ACCESS THIS DEB

100s and 100s of sculptures of gods and godesses engaged in group sex acts deb

are you kidding me?
do you even have ANY point?

no one is putting down hindism dab

krishna led hundreds of married women out into the forst just to have sex with them
ARE YOU TELLING ME THIS IS AN UNUSUAL OR BLASHPEMOUS ART?

get real i was talking about criminal depictions

Well Victoria,

Do you know that Voltaire (Francois Marie Arouet, 1694-1178) of France wrote a very damning 5-act play titled:

MAHOMET THE PROPHET, OR FANATICISM A TRAGEGY IN FIVE ACTS (translated with an introduction by Robert L. Myers), NY, F. Ungar Pub. & Co., 1964.

I have had the (mis)fortune to read that play after I had read Rushdie's Satanic Verses. In my view Voltaire's depiction of Mahomet (and partly false) was intended to show how fanatical Islam and Muhammad was. The very play is not only heretical but presumptious and starts and ends with derogatory remarks. Muhammad, at the end of the play is shown loudly admitting that he was a fanatical impostor. Surely this is most offensive to all believing Muslims. Am I right ?

Given this information, what should the Muslim world do to uphold the sanctity/pride/authenticity of Islam ? Kill all those who read and act Voltaire's play(s) ?

You have made the following remarks, that are intellectually shallow in my view. So, let's see:

"im willing to bet the farm that if some muslim worte a book or made a movie depicting Jesus(ata) or Krishna as a thieving (and i dont mean butter)
wife prostituting pimp a few christians or hindus would take some offense at this."

The famous (Indian) artist/painter, Maqbool Fida Hussain painted in nude sacred Hindu goddesses whom Hindus pray regularly in temples/homes. He claimed that he did it under the pretext of artistic freedoms. He thus defiled the Hindu beliefs (never mind that Hindus are pagans and according to Quran(047:004) need to be killed), and denigrated the senitments of the majority population. Had Hindus painted Muhammad's private lives with his wives under the same artistic pretext, what would have happened ? Can you guess ? Well, you for one (with other co-religionists) would most likely cry hoarse till the moon turned into cream cheese. Communal riots, extreme violence and massive bloodletting would have been entered as the important incidents of contemporary history of India had a Hindu artist taken shelter under the "artistic freedom" pretext.

The problem is that when Muslims riot and cause mayhem over "defiling Islam" (symptomatuc of the victimhood concept), the so-called moderate Muslims justify such violent, barbaric and tribal behavior under the guise of protecting "religious rights". Many Muslim scholars, and including Victoria's favorite Dr. Zakir Naik (from Mumbai, India) justify such violence because "Muslim sentiments have been hurt by pagans/infidels". Conversely, when Muslims engage in similar incidents, they often get away as a slap on the wrist because they belong to the "minority community". Statistical records can be dug up to prove exactly this point.

In USA, of course, still the 1st Amendment is effective. People have died for upholding the Constituitional rights. That's why whether it was the Satanic Verses, Last Temptation of Christ or the DaVinci Code, no one died under the hands of religious fanaticism. Of course this will certainly change if the Muslim population in USA grows in number over time. (Its already begining to happen in Dearborn, Michigan. The writing is on the wall.)

Quite frankly this inequity in treatment is the main concern that gullible Americans cannot see very clearly. Mired in the maze of "human rights", "Israel-Palestine", "Iraq" etc. and etc., they ignorantly surrender their efforts to upholding the rights of Muslims and Islam, when fair treatment should have been equally distributed to all faiths and their respcetive adherents.

Islam's 7th century tribalism is the ugly behemoth that is the problem. It's the barbaric doctrine that holds all religions and adherents as inferior and free for canon fodder.

you could be right hermit, but midnights children was his first, and hes been on a downward slope-
i remeber on the back cover it said he was born on the same day as pakistan and i was pretty young and thought that was awfully cosmic.
(i was heavy into astrology for a looong time)

possibly my memory has edited my impression post reading, eh?

it could be. but im not going to read it again
i dont read novels anymore- well maybe ray bradbury
i read the halloween tree every year this time for about 35 years
unecessary information i know
im in a mood today
peace always reasoanble hermit

and oooowheee i have french blood so i can say it-
those french are a bit wacky sometimes

Dear Humans,

Can you show me the word Judaism in the OT?
Can you show me the word Christianity in the OT/NT?

Why follow a religion whose name is absent from its own holly text?!

There is only one true religion: Islam.

Just follow the Holly Bible and it will show you the way.
Go back to the original text (bypassing the Evangelists!)

Here is my proof:

See Verse 16 in Ch 5 of Song of Songs at this location
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt3005.htm

Look at the Hebrew text. You will see the Name Mohammad (מַחֲמַדִּים) there! Just remove the "i" (י) and "m" (ם) used for making a noun plural.

follow מַחֲמַד !!!

Dear Humans,

Can you show me the word Judaism in the OT?
Can you show me the word Christianity in the OT/NT?

Why follow a religion whose name is absent from its own holly text?!

There is only one true religion: Islam.

Just follow the Holly Bible and it will show you the way.
Go back to the original text (bypassing the Evangelists!)

Here is my proof:

See Verse 16 in Ch 5 of Song of Songs at this location
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt3005.htm

Look at the Hebrew text. You will see the Name Mohammad (מַחֲמַדִּים) there! Just remove the "i" (י) and "m" (ם) used for making a noun plural.

follow מַחֲמַד !!!

And I have to disagree with Victoria on one point; I thought the Satanic Verses was a great book, and the depiction of the prophet was not really as one-dimensional as you make it out to be and in the process he makes some excellent points about the way in which religion can be abused.

Midnight's Children was a much better book, though; probably Rushdie's best.

Regards

A Hermit

Deb asks: "how many people were killed in USA when the Martin Scorcese movie THE LAST TEMPTATION OF CHRIST was screened"

I don't know about the states, but Christian mobs attacked one movie theaters all over France, even burning one down while the movie was being shown. It was just by luck that no one was killed...

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DE6DD173BF936A15753C1A96E948260

Deb asks: "how many people were killed in USA when the Martin Scorcese movie THE LAST TEMPTATION OF CHRIST was screened"

I don't know about the states, but Christian mobs attacked one movie theaters all over France, even burning one down while the movie was being shown. It was just by luck that no one was killed...

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DE6DD173BF936A15753C1A96E948260

just a quick disclaimer- that was not intended in any way to condone the violence taken by the hyper misfits who perpertraed it- just an exercise in understanding

i have to comment on the difference between an intellectual verbal assault and the potency of an image.
(the cartoons were images- rushdie, well he never got the reaction the cartoons have)
its why we dont EVER see any images of flag draped coffins coming back from iraq-
it wasnt so much the image i suspect, but the intent behind it- to degrade and humiliate muslims and let them know there is no level to low in the western worlds ability to disrespect- actually completely ignore what is held sacred to them.

how do you think an image of a bearded jihadi relieving himself at ground zero would play out?
(this is conjecture you understand)
do you imagine that america would passively respond? or do you think some bombs would happen to fall on some muslims somewhere?

id say that since the response was muslims hurting themselves- it is more a demonstration of their feelings of impotency and powerlessness-

irrational? of course it is but inflamed passions are like that

when you take something that any person holds sacred and corrupt it deliberately to incite violence- (the editor was aware and anticipatory of the muslim reaction, as muslims petitioned him not to run the cartoons)and when you take a population of angry people without the means to effect their own self determination- (besides violence) its pretty crazy to poke at a lion and notexpect him to bite.

this was never an incidence of freedom of expression- it was a contrived and purposeful action to provoke reaction-

i remember watching (and taping) the entire funeral and mourning process of arafat-

there was an image of the palestinians in mourning and crazily shooting rifles into the air- (as i recall there was even a death or tow associated with that event, and several injuries)

ill be darned if i haven;t seen that exact clip replayed several times in unrelated stories.

images have a potency that transcends words.
that can manipulate emotions
as an artist i am painfully aware of this
(painfully because of the extraordinary responsibilty that accompanies the creation of images and their impact on my fellow humans)

o thanks for the compliment- i read a book a day for so many years that ive lost count- not anymore- but i wasted alot fo my youth and tender years in books- my mom says i could read at 3, and i read at a college level in second grade- so ive along career- that and 3 dollars will get me a cup of capuccino.

as for my logic- it comes and goes as im sure youve noticed

so what this has to do with the occupation and invasion of muslims in the ME- well, the combination of havng wealth and land and power stolen from them- and the west continually giving muslims the middle finger- while at the same time funding and promoting in every way the causes of their oppressors-
i think deb illustrates well how tribal prejudices can be turned to the advantages of the powers that be-

muslim bashing is downright patriotic-
the only other sanctioned prejudice i can recall is the japanese internment in WWII

what do YOU think of the US invasion of iraq deb?
we got rid of sadaam- the govenrment has been in place in iraq for 2 years now,
do you think it's time we left?
or should we go kill some more muslims in iran?

but remember, iran isn't the disorganized and ill kept ba'athist of iraq.
persians will fight back

i just saw on washington journal that a university in iran has invited dubya to a debate.
think he'll go? snicker

Victoria,

You never cease to amaze! Where do you find time to read so much? And your logic is infallible.

Deb,

You make some good points. It is hard to defend the irrational (to our mind) physical reaction of some Muslims to verbal intellectual assaults by the west on Islam.

But what has this to do with the more important events of the era, like our invasion and occupation of the Holy Muslim lands of Palestine and Iraq. This is the root cause of serious assaults by Muslims on America, like 9/11, which is after all the topic of this thread.

deb, i hope i wasnt insulting to you- it is all in the hope of good and intelligent conversation

im not implying that you dont or cant read

one of my favoritest cartoons in the world is THE TICK. i love the tick. theres a character villain who has a hand puppet that thinks for him (unimaginatively named 'handy')

the puppet is always making obscure literary references to the blank uncomprehending stares of those around him- and then has to specify the reference, explain the connection, and always yells frustratedly "READ A BOOK!!!!"

so, hey, READ A BOOK!

i think a more apt question would be, how many people were killed n the USA period from EITHER the danish cartoon incident, or rushdie incident.

answer- zero

why you included taslima nasreen in this discussion is a mystery to me- she was attacked by both a hindu and muslim group. what exactly does that prove?

i only read the link, but it said it wasnt her depiction of islam- but her condemnation of the actions of religious people in india in particular that she was opposed to- the brutal slaughter of 3000 muslims by hindus in gujurat specifically mentioned. and she was equally condemnng hindu radicals as well as muslim, which is why both hindus and muslims attacked her.

this would seem to be more of an indictment over the polarized views of religious indians, and their viloence AGAINST EACH OTHER- than any indictment of islam per se.

how can you possibly compare the last temptation of christ with the satanic verses?

have you read either?

kazanzatkis (who also wrote francis, and the rock) is an extraordinarily gifted and sensitive writer- the worst blashphemy committed by Jesus(ata) in the last temptation was that he married and had children. hardly a scathing critique of his ministry. not to mention he redeems himslef (and all of humanity by the way) in the end by waking up from his dream and dying on the cross.

the story is really no different than the conjecture of holy blood holy grail,which contends that Jesus(ata) had children with mary magdalene and her descendants became th royal family of britain, which in turn the story was stolen by ron brown and made in to the da vinci code- (they are suing him by the way) and there was nary a peep about that because, wel, to the christian theology it is just not that offensive.

there were nationwide protests about the last temptation of christ, but then people saw the movie and realized it wasnt really that blasphemous- actually i thought at the time that hollywood might have engineered the whole protest thing because it certainly got alot of free press and warm bodies in the theatres.

rushdie on the other hand, depicted the Prophet(pbuh) as an amoral greed driven pimp who prostituted his own wives off.
you have to admit thats a bit more offensive than getting married and having children.

i was a christian when i read it, and didnt really know much at all about Muhammad(pbuh) but i remeber thinking that it was a tacky thing to do.
ive read 4 of his books and looking back, i realize it was a cheap trick (that worked) to get hm notoriety- his writngs are just not that interesting. i had to force myself to read the last one (some glam fluff about a hindu woman whose a rock star and how she destroys herself and those around her-ugghh)

sensationalist claptrap is sensationalist claptrap. noone will be reading him when hes gone.

and the editor of jylland poste has already admitted quite unapologetically that he knew exactly what the reaction would be to his cartoons 6 months before he printed them.

as with rushdie- the intent was deliberately to incite passions and inflame relgious fervor- and it was designed to attack muslims at their achilles heel- there are no depictions of Muhammad(pbuh) in history- it is FORBIDDEN- and the editor was well aware of this, and tryin gto incite muslims in denmark to some action that wolud further alineate them and delineate their 'otherness' to the danish people, who although they claim extraordinary leniency and tolerance- they are having a very very hard time putting this into action when it comes to brown muslims in their country.

i mean, look at ayaan hirsi ali at the parliament- do you notice any other brown face?
no-

so, to compare last temptaton- whose worse depiction was of marriage and children-
with the salacious treatment of the criminal Muhammad(pbuh) is apples and oranges.

im willing to bet the farm that if some muslim worte a book or made a movie depicting Jesus(ata) or Krishna as a thieving (and i dont mean butter)
wife prostituting pimp a few christians or hindus would take some offense at this.

Gentle Rick,

You wrote, "The important thing is to not allow these unfortunate incidents to dominate our opinion of an entire religious faith. I don’t feel that a country as powerful as ours need feel threatened by these ignorant few. The vast majority of the 1.5 billion muslims would not condone this behavior."

I am not in agreement. Well, if the vast majority of Muslims (1.5 billion) did NOT condone this behavior towards Tasleema Nasreen, then how many *INTENSE* protests have we seen from these majority of moderate Muslims against these actions of their more radical co-religionists ? If Islam is a "peaceful" religion, then isn't the action of these radicals defiling Islam, and hence would be unacceptable to the vast majority of true Muslims who are suppossedly moderates ?Conversely, how much of *INTENSE* protests have we seen from the Muslims in response to the Danish cartoons ? In both cases there is a similarity: Islam was perceived being under attack. If a religion is so damn fragile such that its moral existence can be in question from some views of a few (like Nasreen, Rushdie or the cartoons), then I don't believe that such a faith has any solid foundation.

And gentle Rick, you are by projecting your most liberal views on this matter simply playing into the hands of such phonies.

I have a last question: how many people were killed in USA when the Martin Scorcese movie THE LAST TEMPTATION OF CHRIST was screened, vis-a-vis the Danish cartoons/Salman Rushdie scenarios ? Got any clues ?

- yours,

gentile deb

‘It is amazing to us how seriously some people (especially the uneducated) take their religion, and how violent they can get when it is offended.’

That doesn’t sound good does it? I hereby retract that statement right now, before anyone notices. It must have been a Freudian slip. I certainly don’t want to say that only uneducated people take their religion seriously.

Deb,

You make some good points. I too object to people being physically attacked and threatened with death for verbally attacking religion. The case of Salman Rushdie also comes to mind.

‘Taslima Nasreen was attacked at the Hyderabad Press Club, where she was launching the Telegu translation of her book Shodh ("Getting Even")’ http://iheu.org/node/2790.

‘Shockingly, the attackers themselves were elected representatives of the Andhra Pradesh Legislative Assembly and members of the fundamentalist Muslim party Majlis Ijttehaadul Muslimeen, accompanied by a few dozen followers. The leaders were arrested and will appear before a magistrate. Their rowdy followers held up traffic on a long stretch of road in Hyderbad, protesting her arrival in the city; they demanded that she be deported for having offended their religion, and they wanted their leaders released. Many of them say that they will kill her if they have the opportunity.’

It is amazing to us how seriously some people (especially the uneducated) take their religion, and how violent they can get when it is offended. At least the leaders were arrested and will appear in court, so their actions are clearly not condoned by the authorities.

‘The journalists' union has demanded that the three elected representatives be suspended from membership of the Legislature. There has been country-wide support from all quarters for Taslima, and in defence of free speech, including the Chief Minister of Andhra Pradesh and the Union Ministry in Delhi. There was universal condemnation for what happened, including from the Communist Party of India (Marxist), the Telugu Desam Party and many NGOs. The Home Minister Jana Reddy condemned the attack in strong terms, promised stringent action against those who became violent, and claimed that this could have been avoided had the police been given prior information about her arrival in the city.’

‘Taslima Nasreen is a humanist, a rationalist, an atheist. A humanist is the well-wisher of all humans in the world. A humanist reacts to the human sufferings anywhere in the world. When Hindus are butchered by Muslim culprits in Bangladesh she condemned them. Similarly when Muslims are butchered in Gujarat (India) by Hindu culprits she condemned the Hindu culprits. She deeply studied the reasons for human suffering and writing for the human welfare in the world. The religious fundamentalists have misunderstood her. She is not against any religion. She is against those exploiters who are causing human suffering.’

But I’m sure that the same sort of ignorant behavior happens in our own country. I recall a young homosexual man being brutally murdered not long ago out west, and some blacks being drug to death behind a pick-up truck in Texas http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/b/james_jr_byrd/index.html?offset=20. These are just a couple of incidents; I’m sure that they are quite frequent in any society.

The important thing is to not allow these unfortunate incidents to dominate our opinion of an entire religious faith. I don’t feel that a country as powerful as ours need feel threatened by these ignorant few. The vast majority of the 1.5 billion muslims would not condone this behavior.

We should be more concerned about the horrendous attacks being carried out by our elected representatives in Palestine and Iraq.

beware of parenthetical insertions rick- they are the edits of the translators-

islam means literally peace and submission to the god- so its a pretty benign insertion,

deb, as compeltely knowledgeable and valid that lines from criitcs on amazon are,
you really have no idea what you are talking about.

also moderate muslim is not really a term that i like at all- it s a term imposed on muslims by others.
it implies and even by that implication validates fundamentalist extreme islam- which most muslims, like myself are somehow anomalies or exceptions rather than the normal representatives of islam.

deb- your continued desire to somehow prove that islam is inherently evil, and all muslims have some secret zealot inside waiting for the right time to emerge- and if they dont they are too weak to be considered muslims is-
well wishful thinking on your part.
i know you want to validate your own unreasonable prejudice, and the only way to do that is to dismiss any muslims who dont fit into your own bizarre fundamentality-

it is really a good thing you are not a muslim deb, because you would be a most dangerous corruption of islam.

you seem continually surprised at my lack of venom or verbal violence, and you have been overtly dogging and attacking me since november of last year-

i am a muslim deb, i dont believe all muslims go to paradise, i dont believe all non muslims go to hell-

i simply do not know, as you do not know.

ricks questons are very good, and it only helps me to define specfically what i know in my heart, or surmise from my own poor comprehension.

but i really do appreciate the civil way you're discussing with me now deb.
i really do.

Victoria,

Your characterization of my (Deb) view of Ijtihad is CORRECT. Yes, that's my view after what I have read.

You have proposed a second view, which in my view is simply wishful thinking, and here is why.

I know about Ibn Sina and other respceted Muslim scholars without whom our western scientific developments would have become a mere cipher.

But, you know what history is on my side. I cannot go into deep details, but for the benefit of you and other readers I would like to point you out to a well-researched book:

Toby E. Huff, THE RISE OF EARLY MODERN SCIENCE: ISLAM, CHINA AND THE WEST. (see amazon website for purchase details).

In that book, it is shown in great details and backed by references that (page 158):

"It was even essential to Islam, ..., because the 'method was part and parcel of the Islamic orthodox process for determining orthodoxy. Where it failed was in the creation of a set of objective standards of law, against which all other laws and principles could be judged. Since the legal principles of Islamic law had been given once and for all, in the Quran and the sunna, and in the principles of fiqh worked out by al-Shafi'i, the only task left was to use logic in the narrow sense, to uncover faulty reasoning and thus preserve the doctrinal status quo...."

(The above is a quote from a review on the amazon site.)

This debacle happened because the second version of Ijtihad (which you have cited) failed to gain any foothold in the Islamic ummah. The reason it NEVER gained any foothold, as argued persuasively by Huff, is that once reason is "let loose and is free" it starts to question everything and at a certain point in time such questioning would naturally contradict the basic tenets of the Quran. You cannot question the divinity and the authenticity of the Quran - as a Muslim. Doctrinal status quo needs to be upheld. That's the upper limit. Hence the second form of the Ijtihad, although pursued by many, has failed and shall continue to fail simply because of the fundamentalism inherent in the Quran (a Divine revelation). Quran forbids going against Allah's message and his rasool (prophet) Muhammad. The very consequences are mentioned in Quran (005:033).

Victoria wrote:

"do muslims escape the wheel of birth and rebirth deb?
christians, jews? bahai? buddhists?(possibly)
native americans? pagans? sikhs? zoraorastrians?
taoists? shintoists? confucionists?"

Who cares about these things Victoria ? Why should one attain salvation is of any bother to me ? Same goes the other way.

We are concerned about the implementation of Quran (004:095),(009:029),(047:004) in particular.
What happens with my personal spirituality is none of Islam's business. Similarly, what happens with yours is no concern of mone either. Live and let live.

And again, you wrote:

"deb- i will state unapologetically that- while you may conject that moody and i are rogue muslims without any bearing to 'real' (read violent and barbaric) in your estimation muslims-

you are UNQUESTIONABLY ill suited to make any observations and particularly judgements whatsoever about islam"

Thank you for reflecting your religion's hostile attitude towards critics. Like what happened with Tasleema Nasreen who was recently hounded in Hyderabad, India, by your fellow co-religionists (Muslims) and one of the members of the Indian Parliament, Akbar-ud-din Owaisi had placed a bounty for anyone who would kill Tasleema because of her hostile depiction of Islam. You know this Akbar Owaisi and you read the same Quran. So, why he can cite the Quran and make the threats, and you think that is not permitted in the Quran ? See anything, no ? Too tired to think ?

This is quite amusing, because most Muslims claim that they are moderate or that Islam is a peaceful religion when the actions show exactly opposite, even in places like India which has about 18% of the Muslim population. In India, all anti-Islamic books are officially banned. And, the Osama tapes/CDs are making their rounds in mosques. See the contradiction, Victoria ? Anti-Islam views are banned, but jihadi tapes are well flourishing because the mullahs are using them under the pretext of religion. Your favorite mullah, Dr. Zakir Naik, is a supporter of Osama bin Laden because he wants to create a model Islamic State in the world through the Shariah laws. Dr. Zakir Naik is all for it. SIMI (Student Islamic Movement of India) who are involved in bomb blasts, want to convert India to an Islamic State and bring in back the glory of the barbaric Mughal rule. Thanks to the "peaceful coexistence" that Islam preaches. Why are you engaging in false jabber, Victoria ?

Gentle Rick:

Your fondness for Hermit or Victoria stems from the fact that you are really a liberal at heart. You tend to give everybody a good benefit of doubt. It is like those most pacifist Buddhist/Jainist monks who would rather get killed by their perpetrators than having to bear any grudge/hatred against them. This is what Hermit's condemnation of "overreaction" boils down to. And, unfortunately, you are falling for the same hook-line-sinker.

To quip, as I have asserted, read the books that are both favorable (like Karen Armstrong, Khalid Abou El Fadl)and unfavorable (like Robert Spencer, Ibn Warraq) about Islam and then judge what makes sense. If you are serious, then aside the authors I have named, you should read the works of Maulana Abul Ala Maudoodi, Sayyid Qutb and chcek it out what the "fundemantalist" ideology means and why it is winning not only for the past 20 years but indeed was the norm for close to 1100 years after Islam was first revealed to Muhammad.

Only when you know both sides can you see the complete picture. I have read both types and hence I have the moral courage to argue.

Actually to be honest, I have read Quran and its tafseer and the hadith and sunnah - as available from the writings of respected Muslim scholars. I have concluded that Islam is a violent and intolerant religion with extreme hate towards the unbelievers outside the fold of Islam.

- yours,

gentile deb

Deb Chatterjee;

So your answer to my question is to call me names and wave a bloody shirt?

A sure sign that I've won the argument...thank you.

Regards

A Hermit

Victoria & Gentile Deb,

Thank you for the interesting posts.

Victoria,

Your post is very detailed and informative. Thanks for your time. I know that you are very busy during this month of the Ramadan. You are quite the scholar and just a great person.

You are right. I forgot the important detail presented in Verse 003.084:

YUSUFALI: ‘Say: "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)."’

So all Jews, Christians, Muslims and others who believe in the one true God will be received into paradise is my interpretation of that.

However, there is the other small detail of Verse 003.085:

YUSUFALI: ‘If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).’

This could be interpreted to mean that followers of religions other than Islam are excluded form paradise. This is probably how critics like Gentile Deb would interpret it. Or it could be interpreted that the parenthetical (submission to Allah) includes believers of all faiths who believe in the one true God. This is how you and I would interpret it.

So you see this is what happens when the ‘Holy’ Book could be construed to contradict itself in the same chapter and confuse the loyal faithful who want to use this text as the guide to live by.

Of course the Judeo-Christian OT/NT is no better. If we took this text verbatim, we would learn that we are commanded to kill: all children who curse there parents, all people who work on the Sabbath (I wonder how many billions of people this would dispose of), all people who curse God, all who steal their neighbor’s slave, all homosexuals, all wh*res, etc, etc, etc.

So those moderate interpreters like you and Moody would say that all but the 17% who are devout secularists, Atheists or Agnostics (like me) have a good chance of making it to Paradise. The more radical Muslim interpreters would say that only the 21% who are devout Muslims will arrive at paradise, and the evangelical Christians would say that only the 33% who are devout Christians will make it to heaven.

Of course I have only completed reading three of the Qur’an’s 114 chapters. We will see what the remainder have in store for us.

I think that 99.94% of us (worldwide) are moderates, who just want to get up in the morning, go to work or school, have three square meals a day, live in comfort with our loved ones, etc.

But it is the 0.06% who are nut jobs that we must watch out for, especially those pulling the strings of national power, like our Dear Leader and World Class Hypocrite in the White House.

So the bottom line is (sorry Gentile Deb), I must agree with the Hermit. We must continue to go about our daily lives refusing to live in fear of the nut jobs; otherwise they have won. And we must be more vigilant to keep the nut jobs away from the strings of power.

Gentle Rick

rick- your figures leave about 83% with a good chance of going to paradise-
the people who go to hell are those who set up gods beside god.
for me personally, it was art- but it could be anything.
that's assuming all 87% worship god

also there is in islam the idea that no one can asnwer and that is this-

there are many people who will psend a time in hell- but eventually come to paradise.

no one can say if anyone stays there forever-

as every nation has had a messenger or prophet sent to it- we have no way of knowing who has what in their heart-

as for the 17% mentioned-

they will be remebered by ALLAH with the same attention with which they remembered him.

stay away from the haters like ibn warraq-
read some rumi or hanafi maybe

i like fethullah gulen or said nursi
but i have some sufi leanings although i8 am an observant muslim which means i pray 5 times a day (although i am ashamed to admit i miss sometimes)
i try to make it up- but it happens sometimes

(i hate to state absolutes)

now, certainly your question requires a great deal more thought and consideration this is off the top of my head

as for the christian scripture qupted, there are many instances where the word 'hell' was inserted when it actually said gehenna (which was the burning trash heap outside of jerusalem and an analogy that would have made contemporaneous sense to the people Jesus(ata) was speaking to.)

king james (my own personal most disliked version) inserted the word hell- some scholars contend unnecessarily- so one could argue that the flavor and shades of meaning were changed form that- or just state it right out.
(as i am)

deb- i will state unapologetically that- while you may conject that moody and i are rogue muslims without any bearing to 'real' (read violent and barbaric) in your estimation muslims-

you are UNQUESTIONABLY ill suited to make any observations and particularly judgements whatsoever about islam.

do muslims escape the wheel of birth and rebirth deb?
christians, jews? bahai? buddhists?(possibly)
native americans? pagans? sikhs? zoraorastrians?
taoists? shintoists? confucionists?

how about rastafarians, or some little known tribal religions?

did Jesus(ata) escape the wheel of life?


for the record rick- tasfeer is commentary- and as such are the opinons of men(and some very excellent ones)

islam has so far, every 100 years had great reformers- it is actually a phenomena that leads some to be looking for the new reformer-

ignore debs comments on reform- he simply doesnt seem to have looked into it- or sometimes claims what he imaignines rather than knows-

IJTIHAD
The Islamic tradition has two conceptions of ijtihad. One is a very narrow, legalistic notion of it as a process of juristic reasoning employed to determine the permissibility of an action when primary sources, namely the Koran and Sunnah (Tradition of the Prophet), are silent and earlier scholars of shari'a (Islamic law) had not ruled on the matter. For those who hold this view of ijtihad, who can perform ijtihad is often more important than the need for ijtihad.

In reality, this view is designed to stifle independent thought among Muslims and to confine the right to understand and explain Islam to Muslim jurists. It is also opposed to reasoning, because it essentially says that reason shall be employed only when the texts are silent and no medieval scholar has addressed the issue under scrutiny. Reason, according to this viewpoint, is the last resort for understanding the will of God. For those who hold this view, opening the doors of ijtihad would make no difference, since their very conception of it is impoverished and limited.

THIS IS DEBS CONCEPT OF ISLAM (above)

The second view, often espoused by non-jurists and particularly by those who advocate some form of Islamic modernism and liberalism, envisions ijtihad more broadly. For modernist Muslims -- and I believe that Islamic modernism deeply influences all "moderate" Muslim thinking -- ijtihad is about freedom of thought, rational thinking and the quest for truth through an epistemology covering science, rationalism, human experience, critical thinking and so on.

When modernist Muslims claim that the door of ijtihad has been closed, they are lamenting the loss of the spirit of inquiry that was so spectacularly demonstrated by classical Islamic civilization at its peak. They are, in a sense, nostalgic for Ibn Sina' (Avicenna) and Ibn Rushd (Averroes), for al-Farabi, al-Biruni and al-Haytham -- scientists, philosophers and jurists of Islam's "Golden Age". Thus, modernist Muslims see ijtihad as the spirit of inquiry and desire for all forms of knowledge, not just religious and juristic, that needs to be revived to revitalize and restore Islamic civilization.

Ijtihad is alive and well, despite debs misgivings.

also be warned that hadeeth can be considered corrupted or even invalid- some are just rejected outright-

so hadeeth study is a good thing- but one has to be open to the possibilty that many are simply invented or added
peace
sorry for the inadequate ansers and may ALLAH forgive me if i have interpreted or misrepresneted anything unknowingly

its just my humble opinion
im not a scholar, just a searchihng adherent

Gentle Rick:

I think you need to see both sides of the coin on the issue of Islam. Islam is completely closed society. No changes/reforms allowed. It is because of this feature most Muslim countries I know live in dark ages. Where there is some sense of westernization, there is rebellion and anarchy. Its not the fault of the West that its policies/culture is diametrically opposite to that of Islam.

Regarding Quran, and its various adherents like Victoria and Moody, I think that they don't represent the front view of Islam. Fotr Christianity it is different. Ken Woodward and Pat Robertson are equally recognized. Not so in Islam. If you think that such a view of Christianity is wrong, then I think we need not engage in this discussion.

For centuries history of Islam is replete with blood and violence. Certainly there must have been people who wanted reform. It did not happen. The fanatics ruled, and established their claims by what is written in the Quran. They finally established that fundamentalism is the way to go in Islam. Islam is ruled by such barbaric dictates simply because Quran is favorable towards such barbarianism such as killing of infidels, subjugation of women, dhimmitude etc. There is noi escaping from this fact. To understand Islam you have to read the hadith. The hadith are saying of Muhammad (and his instructions) regarding various aspects of life.

Anyway, I think you are too quick to judge. Read the Quran, and read both the "enlightened" and "fundamentalist" commentaries (tafseer). In addition you may want to read books by Robert Spencer. Again, Victoria would scream hell, because Spencer has earned the ire of the Muslims through his writings on Islam. I would hasten to add that you read his book (and that of Ibn Warraq) and make your decision regarding right or wrong. Listening to net-mullahs is not wise.

- yours,

gentile deb

Gentile Deb,

As always, you are acquitting yourself well as a wise and thoughtful man.

Just as in Islam, where we have thoughtful and inclusive people such as Victoria and Moody to go against the radical nut jobs; we also have in Christianity some thoughtful and inclusive people such as Kenneth L. Woodward whose view is starkly different from fundamentalist evangelicals like Reverend Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell etc.

You say:

‘So far you have not shown other than speculation or indirect circumstantial evidence/inference that Christ stated in the thunderous and menacing words that those who are not Christians shall be condemned to everlasting hell.’

I say:

Here are the direct thunderous and menacing words of Jesus Christ, not ‘speculation or indirect circumstantial evidence/inference’:

John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

If you don’t ‘come to the Father, then are banished to burn in eternal hell. There is no other option.

Regards,

Gentle Rick

Gentle Rick,

So far you have not shown other than speculation or indirect circumstantial evidence/inference that Christ stated in the thunderous and menacing words that those who are not Christians shall be condemned to everlasting hell. (Contrast the threats in the Quran to unbelievers - a book that has grabbed you by the mind.)

You are inferring that because Christ upheld the messages of the Old Testament, so he must be asking for all to convert or else the unconverted shall be cast in everlasting hell.

I am not a Christian. However I have read the interpretations by Kenneth L. Woodward who frequently writes in Newsweek. His view, starkly different from fundamentalist evangelicals like Reverend Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell etc., is that the messages of Christ must be interpreted quite metaphorically.

I could be wrong, but I would like to know why Kenneth L. Woodward is wrong, and fundamentalist views of Robertson and Falwell are right.

- yours,

gentile deb

Gentle Deb,

Here is some more food for thought relative to your eternal salvation:

From: http://www.ichthys.com/mail-heaven%20and%20hell.htm
Jesus Christ is the issue in all of this. He is the door through which we pass or from which we turn away (Jn.10:1-18). He is the only way to eternal life (Jn.14:6). He is the only path that leads upward (Matt.7:13-15). By committing our lives, our selves to Him, by believing in Him, His Person, human and divine, and His work, the ransom He paid for us by His death on the cross, and by demonstrating through our continuing faith that we mean what have said, we enter and abide in fellowship with Him and the Father now, and confidently anticipate the redemption of our bodies at that future time. We hope, confidently hope, for an eternity with Him who gave up everything He had so that we might be forgiven, so that we might be saved, so that we might be with Him and His Father, our Father, forever.
And having led [Paul and Silas] outside, he said, "Sirs, What must I do in order to be saved?" And they said to him, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your whole household." Acts 16:30-31

Regards,

Gentle Rick

Gentle Deb,

From: http://mysite.verizon.net/res0ov3c/wrath.htm

What about those who say that all the references to hell are found in the Old Testament and not the New Testament (thereby implying that the Father changed His mind when he sent Jesus)?

There are a couple responses to this. First, even if that were true, it wouldn't matter. Jesus Himself declared, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished" (Matthew 5:17-18).

The Law and the Prophets are the Old Testament. So even if hell were not mentioned in the New Testament, it wouldn't matter. Jesus validated the Old Testament Scriptures. . . lock, stock, and barrel.

Second, Jesus Himself talked many times about God's wrath and the reality of hell. If, as Christians, we don't believe the words of our Savior, then why do we call ourselves Christians? If we don't believe the words of Jesus, then we most certainly are not His followers. Listed below are just some of the times that Jesus Himself spoke of the wrath of God, judgment, and hell. In fact, the quotes given below are from just one of the four Gospels – Matthew.

"But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell." (Matthew 5:22)

"If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell." (Matthew 5:29-30)

Regards,

Gentle Rick

Gentle Rick,

I think your remarks about Christianity (item 2) are little far-fetched. Not, that they are wrong. I would just gently ask you to show where does Jesus Christ explicitly say that "those who will not convert to Christianity shall roast in everlasting hell ?"

-yours,

gentile deb

Victoria & Moody,

I will now respectfully offer a few gentle comments and will patiently await your gentle response:

1. Roughly 1.5 billion people, one-sixth (21%), of the world’s population is Muslim. I interpret verses 003.085, 003.110 and 003.131 to imply that the 4.8 billion people (79%) of the world’s population are doomed to roast in everlasting hell, unless we convert to Islam. (http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html)

2. This is irrational in my humble opinion, but no more so than the 2.1 billion Christian believers who say that 67% of the world’s population will roast in everlasting hell, unless we convert to Christianity.

3. The 1.1 billion (17%) people who are Secular/Atheist/Agnostic, who say that they do not know if God exists (Agnostic), or lacking evidence to the contrary believe that God does not exist (Atheist), are more rational in my humble opinion, than either the Muslims or Christians who say that those who don’t agree with them are doomed to burn in the fire of everlasting hell.

What do you say?

Moody,

Thank you for your thoughtful post. I particularly like your opening paragraph:

‘Opinions are made upon understanding and certain knowledge, which differ from person to person. For some God is a myth, for some they believe or want to believe according to their religion and for some He is as real as His creation.’

Victoria and Moody,

I have finished reading Chapter 3:

Translations of the Qur'an, Chapter 3:

AL-E-IMRAN (THE FAMILY OF 'IMRAN, THE HOUSE OF 'IMRAN)

Total Verses: 200
Revealed At: MADINA
Maududi's introduction

Some of my favorite verses are as follows:

003.033
YUSUFALI: Allah did choose Adam and Noah, the family of Abraham, and the family of 'Imran above all people,- (Similar to Judeo-Christian OT)

003.045
YUSUFALI: Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah; (Similar to Judeo-Christian OT)

003.047
YUSUFALI: She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is! (Similar to Judeo-Christian OT)

003.084
YUSUFALI: Say: "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)." (As Victoria always says, Islam is a peace loving and inclusive religion, but it does reserve the right to defend itself.)

003.085
YUSUFALI: If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good). (Oops! Not so inclusive)

003.096
YUSUFALI: The first House (of worship) appointed for men was that at Bakka: Full of blessing and of guidance for all kinds of beings:

003.097
YUSUFALI: In it are Signs Manifest; (for example), the Station of Abraham; whoever enters it attains security; Pilgrimage thereto is a duty men owe to Allah,- those who can afford the journey; but if any deny faith, Allah stands not in need of any of His creatures.

003.110
YUSUFALI: Ye are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah. If only the People of the Book had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors

003.123
YUSUFALI: Allah had helped you at Badr, when ye were a contemptible little force; then fear Allah; thus May ye show your gratitude.

From Wikipedia:
The Battle of Badr (Arabic: غزوة بدر), fought March 17, 624 CE (17 Ramadan 2 AH in the Islamic calendar) in the Hejaz of western Arabia (present-day Saudi Arabia), was a key battle in the early days of Islam and a turning point in Muhammad's struggle with his opponents among the Quraish[1] in Makkah. The battle has been passed down in Islamic history as a decisive victory attributable to divine intervention or the genius of Muhammad. Although it is one of the few battles specifically mentioned in the Muslim holy book, the Qur'ān, virtually all contemporary knowledge of the battle at Badr comes from traditional Islamic accounts, both hadiths and biographies of Muhammad, written decades after the battle.

Quraysh or Quraish (Arabic: قريش transliteration: Qurayš. Other transliterations include "Quresh", "Quraysh", "Koreish" and "Coreish". Turkish: Kureyş. Albanian: Korreshi) was the dominant tribe of Mecca upon the appearance of the religion of Islam. It was both the tribe to which the Islamic Prophet Muhammad belonged and as well as the tribe that led the initial opposition to his message.

003.131
YUSUFALI: Fear the Fire, which is repaired for those who reject Faith: (Oops! Not so inclusive)

003.133
YUSUFALI: Be quick in the race for forgiveness from your Lord, and for a Garden whose width is that (of the whole) of the heavens and of the earth, prepared for the righteous,-

003.144
YUSUFALI: Muhammad is no more than a messenger: many Were the messenger that passed away before him. If he died or were slain, will ye then Turn back on your heels? If any did turn back on his heels, not the least harm will he do to Allah; but Allah (on the other hand) will swiftly reward those who (serve Him) with gratitude.

003.164
YUSUFALI: Allah did confer a great favour on the believers when He sent among them a messenger from among themselves, rehearsing unto them the Signs of Allah, sanctifying them, and instructing them in Scripture and Wisdom, while, before that, they had been in manifest error.

Opinions are made upon understanding and certain knowledge, which differ from person to person. For some God is a myth, for some they believe or want to believe according to their religion and for some He is as real as His creation. Below are few examples in the favor of their belief:

For Muslims Big Bang Theory is not something new, it is more than 1400 years old, revealed in their Holy Book along with more than 1000 other scientific facts which are happened to be established recently in couple of centuries. And the answers of so many confusing questions which keep us going astray throughout our lives. And as a fact Muslims know they were revealed before discovered and further on top of it that not a single verse of their holy book is in conflict with any logical/scientific approach (infect every time scientific discoveries providing proof in favor of the last revelations), make them more focused/practicing/fundamentalist or what ever others think about them and made it very easy for them to reach to the conclusion...simply apply the scientific rule of Probability....What if it is 100% correct...IF YOU UNDERSTAND PORBABILITY RULE THEN ITS NOT A JOKE !!), very few examples out of All from the Holy book as proof,

I have created all the creatures from earth and all the living beings are made out of water (Chapter 21) (living being which are meant to die/perish)
Don’t you see the earth and sky was together and I separated them, still you don’t believe
(Chapter 21)
I have created sky upon earth for your protection and there is sign for you
(Chapter 21)
All the stars, moon and sun are floating in their skies
(Chapter 21)
All the skies are holding with out pillars and there is sign for you
(Chapter 21)

For Muslims God means (The One, Ultimate Creator, Who is Uncreated and above time always present before and after time and beyond our limited level of comprehension)

Below is the TOUCH STONE of God that He revealed in Holy Book, when the question about God was raised:
1- He is One and Only
2-the Eternal, Absolute;
, the eternally Besought of all! on Whom all depend.
3-He begets not, nor is He begotten.
4-And there is none comparable unto Him.
And none is like Him.

Please comments are not necessary WITHOUT VARIFICATION/RESEARCH of the original text and authentic translations by ONLY Muslim scholars to avoid any twisting and deceptive techniques IN GENERAL PRACTICE!!

Opinions are made upon understanding and certain knowledge, which differ from person to person. For some God is a myth, for some they believe or want to believe according to their religion and for some He is as real as His creation. Below are few examples in the favor of their belief:

For Muslims Big Bang Theory is not something new, it is more than 1400 years old, revealed in their Holy Book along with more than 1000 other scientific facts which are happened to be established recently in couple of centuries. And the answers of so many confusing questions which keep us going astray throughout our lives. And as a fact Muslims know they were revealed before discovered and further on top of it that not a single verse of their holy book is in conflict with any logical/scientific approach (infect every time scientific discoveries providing proof in favor of the last revelations), make them more focused/practicing/fundamentalist or what ever others think about them and made it very easy for them to reach to the conclusion...simply apply the scientific rule of Probability....What if it is 100% correct...IF YOU UNDERSTAND PORBABILITY RULE THEN ITS NOT A JOKE !!), very few examples out of All from the Holy book as proof,

I have created all the creatures from earth and all the living beings are made out of water (Chapter 21) (living being which are meant to die/perish)
Don’t you see the earth and sky was together and I separated them, still you don’t believe
(Chapter 21)
I have created sky upon earth for your protection and there is sign for you
(Chapter 21)
All the stars, moon and sun are floating in their skies
(Chapter 21)
All the skies are holding with out pillars and there is sign for you
(Chapter 21)

For Muslims God means (The One, Ultimate Creator, Who is Uncreated and above time always present before and after time and beyond our limited level of comprehension)

Below is the TOUCH STONE of God that He revealed in Holy Book, when the question about God was raised:
1- He is One and Only
2-the Eternal, Absolute;
, the eternally Besought of all! on Whom all depend.
3-He begets not, nor is He begotten.
4-And there is none comparable unto Him.
And none is like Him.

Please comments are not necessary WITHOUT VARIFICATION/RESEARCH of the original text and authentic translations by ONLY Muslim scholars to avoid any twisting and deceptive techniques IN GENERAL PRACTICE!!

Opinions are made upon understanding and certain knowledge, which differ from person to person. For some God is a myth, for some they believe or want to believe according to their religion and for some He is as real as His creation. Below are few examples in the favor of their belief:

For Muslims Big Bang Theory is not something new, it is more than 1400 years old, revealed in their Holy Book along with more than 1000 other scientific facts which are happened to be established recently in couple of centuries. And the answers of so many confusing questions which keep us going astray throughout our lives. And as a fact Muslims know they were revealed before discovered and further on top of it that not a single verse of their holy book is in conflict with any logical/scientific approach (infect every time scientific discoveries providing proof in favor of the last revelations), make them more focused/practicing/fundamentalist or what ever others think about them and made it very easy for them to reach to the conclusion...simply apply the scientific rule of Probability....What if it is 100% correct...IF YOU UNDERSTAND PORBABILITY RULE THEN ITS NOT A JOKE !!), very few examples out of All from the Holy book as proof,

I have created all the creatures from earth and all the living beings are made out of water (Chapter 21) (living being which are meant to die/perish)
Don’t you see the earth and sky was together and I separated them, still you don’t believe
(Chapter 21)
I have created sky upon earth for your protection and there is sign for you
(Chapter 21)
All the stars, moon and sun are floating in their skies
(Chapter 21)
All the skies are holding with out pillars and there is sign for you
(Chapter 21)

For Muslims God means (The One, Ultimate Creator, Who is Uncreated and above time always present before and after time and beyond our limited level of comprehension)

Below is the TOUCH STONE of God that He revealed in Holy Book, when the question about God was raised:
1- He is One and Only
2-the Eternal, Absolute;
, the eternally Besought of all! on Whom all depend.
3-He begets not, nor is He begotten.
4-And there is none comparable unto Him.
And none is like Him.

Please comments are not necessary WITHOUT VARIFICATION/RESEARCH of the original text and authentic translations by ONLY Muslim scholars to avoid any twisting and deceptive techniques IN GENERAL PRACTICE!!

Opinions are made upon understanding and certain knowledge, which differ from person to person. For some God is a myth, for some they believe or want to believe according to their religion and for some He is as real as His creation. Below are few examples in the favor of their belief:

For Muslims Big Bang Theory is not something new, it is more than 1400 years old, revealed in their Holy Book along with more than 1000 other scientific facts which are happened to be established recently in couple of centuries. And the answers of so many confusing questions which keep us going astray throughout our lives. And as a fact Muslims know they were revealed before discovered and further on top of it that not a single verse of their holy book is in conflict with any logical/scientific approach (infect every time scientific discoveries providing proof in favor of the last revelations), make them more focused/practicing/fundamentalist or what ever others think about them and made it very easy for them to reach to the conclusion...simply apply the scientific rule of Probability....What if it is 100% correct...IF YOU UNDERSTAND PORBABILITY RULE THEN ITS NOT A JOKE !!), very few examples out of All from the Holy book as proof,

I have created all the creatures from earth and all the living beings are made out of water (Chapter 21) (living being which are meant to die/perish)
Don’t you see the earth and sky was together and I separated them, still you don’t believe
(Chapter 21)
I have created sky upon earth for your protection and there is sign for you
(Chapter 21)
All the stars, moon and sun are floating in their skies
(Chapter 21)
All the skies are holding with out pillars and there is sign for you
(Chapter 21)

For Muslims God means (The One, Ultimate Creator, Who is Uncreated and above time always present before and after time and beyond our limited level of comprehension)

Below is the TOUCH STONE of God that He revealed in Holy Book, when the question about God was raised:
1- He is One and Only
2-the Eternal, Absolute;
, the eternally Besought of all! on Whom all depend.
3-He begets not, nor is He begotten.
4-And there is none comparable unto Him.
And none is like Him.

Please comments are not necessary WITHOUT VARIFICATION/RESEARCH of the original text and authentic translations by ONLY Muslim scholars to avoid any twisting and deceptive techniques IN GENERAL PRACTICE!!

Opinions are made upon understanding and certain knowledge, which differ from person to person. For some God is a myth, for some they believe or want to believe according to their religion and for some He is as real as His creation. Below are few examples in the favor of their belief:

For Muslims Big Bang Theory is not something new, it is more than 1400 years old, revealed in their Holy Book along with more than 1000 other scientific facts which are happened to be established recently in couple of centuries. And the answers of so many confusing questions which keep us going astray throughout our lives. And as a fact Muslims know they were revealed before discovered and further on top of it that not a single verse of their holy book is in conflict with any logical/scientific approach (infect every time scientific discoveries providing proof in favor of the last revelations), make them more focused/practicing/fundamentalist or what ever others think about them and made it very easy for them to reach to the conclusion...simply apply the scientific rule of Probability....What if it is 100% correct...IF YOU UNDERSTAND PORBABILITY RULE THEN ITS NOT A JOKE !!), very few examples out of All from the Holy book as proof,

I have created all the creatures from earth and all the living beings are made out of water (Chapter 21) (living being which are meant to die/perish)
Don’t you see the earth and sky was together and I separated them, still you don’t believe
(Chapter 21)
I have created sky upon earth for your protection and there is sign for you
(Chapter 21)
All the stars, moon and sun are floating in their skies
(Chapter 21)
All the skies are holding with out pillars and there is sign for you
(Chapter 21)

For Muslims God means (The One, Ultimate Creator, Who is Uncreated and above time always present before and after time and beyond our limited level of comprehension)

Below is the TOUCH STONE of God that He revealed in Holy Book, when the question about God was raised:
1- He is One and Only
2-the Eternal, Absolute;
, the eternally Besought of all! on Whom all depend.
3-He begets not, nor is He begotten.
4-And there is none comparable unto Him.
And none is like Him.

Please comments are not necessary WITHOUT VARIFICATION/RESEARCH of the original text and authentic translations by ONLY Muslim scholars to avoid any twisting and deceptive techniques IN GENERAL PRACTICE!!

Hermit wrote:

"In short, start doing things that are effective instead of doing what the terrorists want us to do, which is precisely what the Bush administration has done. You can't fight terrorism with conventional military forces. All that does is cause more of the dislocation and resentment that breeds terrorism in the first place."

What you have suggested as " things that are effective" are actually impotent overtures to save the USA from the ugly behemoth of radical Islam. Maybe you would advice Nick Berg's father to forgive the Zarqwai who cut his son's throat and then had it on the video to mock at USA. I think with losers like you, and your failed policies, USA does have to fear of homegrown terrorist cells.

Victoria,

I have now finished Chapter 2. I continue find it very similar to the Judeo-Christian OT, with its stories of Adam and Eve in the Garden (of bliss instead of Eden), Moses, the Exodus from Egypt, Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, David and Goliath.

'And (as to) those who disbelieve in and reject My communications, they are the inmates of the fire, in it they shall abide' (002.039). (This is the most troubling for me so far; i.e. that honest skeptics who believe only what the natural universe reveals to scientifically inquiring minds are doomed to burn in everlasting hell. This is no different than the Judeo-Christian philosophy, but disturbing none the less.)

The Children of Israel are favored of Allah and excel all nations (002.047). (Similar to the OT and reminiscent of the Zionist Jews claim to be the Chosen People and Palestine is their Promised Land.)

'Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve' (002.062). (Islam is an inclusive faith and maintains that true believers of all faiths (Muslims, Jews, Christians, Sabians) in the one God, Allah, will have their reward in Heaven, or the Garden of Bliss.)

'Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors' (002.190). (As you often state, Islam is basically a religion of peace, but does reserve the right to defend itself.)

I’m sure that I will get to the controversial stuff that all the critics keep posting on soon enough, but so far so good.

"What plans do you have to combat terrorists - "

Simple; do the kinds of things that worked in Northern Ireland in the end; solid, constitutional police work, honest negotiations and a real effort to deal with the underlying problems exploited by the terrorists.

A real effort at rebuilding in Afghanistan, instead of the half hearted empty promises we've seen there, would go a lot further to fighting Islamist extremism than getting caught in a civil war in Iraq (and it would be a hell of a lot cheaper, too.)

A well supported humanitarian and peacekeeping mission in Darfur, genuine efforts at combating AIDS and hunger in Africa and a move to fair trade practices with African and South Asian countries would also be more effective than military action, and again a hell of a lot cheaper.

Serious financial regulations to restrict the money-laundering that terrorist financing relies on would further inhinit the spread of extremist ideology and limit their range of action.

And of course provide real security at ports and airports (not this stupid no toothpaste on the plane crap, either, I mean well paid, well trained security personnel) and industrial plants. No terrorist is ever going to bother going to the trouble smuggling a chemical or nuclear weapon into the US when there are unprotected chemical plants, nuclear stations and LPG tankers out there.

In short, start doing things that are effective instead of doing what the terrorists want us to do, which is precisely what the Bush administration has done. You can't fight terrorism with conventional military forces. All that does is cause more of the dislocation and resentment that breeds terrorism in the first place.

What's your solution Deb? Blow up more stuff? I don't think that's working...

Regards

A Hermit

im sorry i cant stay but a second and cant respond tonight- if i start to, ill never get the things done i need to-
just a quick note deb-

you are aware that gandhi (a brown guy from india) credits henry david thoreau ( a white guy from new england) with giving him the inspiration for non-violent civil disobedience? he got it from reading the book, civil disobedience.

later, martin luther king,jr. (a black guy from america) gathered his inspiration from gandhi.

i always say, every generation is sitting on the shoulders of the giants who went before them.

i heartily recommend gandhis autobiography-
and thoreaus civil disobedience.

sorry i cant stay-

A man shown denouncing Israel and praising "THE JIHAD WAY" resigned Thursday from the state Commission on Immigration.

MUSLIM AMERICAN SOCIETY president Dr. Esam Omeish was appointed to the commission by Gov. Tim Kaine.

In a video that appears on YouTube, Omeish is shown at a rally in Washington last year denouncing the invasion of Lebanon during that time by what he calls the "Israeli war machine."

Omeish, a surgeon at INOVA Alexandria Hospital, also accused Israel of genocide and massacres against Palestinians and said the "Israeli agenda" controls Congress.

In a separate, undated video, Omeish tells a crowd of Washington-area Muslims, "The JIHAD WAY is the way to liberate your land."

A caller to Kaine's radio program today on the Virginia News Network asked the governor about the Omeish appointment and the video.

Kaine said in a statement that he's concerned about Omeish's statements. The governor said Omeish did not want the controversy to distract from the work of the Commission.

and

The MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD is the parent organization of HAMAS, formed in 1987 in the Palestinian territories to combat Israeli occupation. The Brotherhood remains active in many parts of the world, dedicated to increasing fundamentalist Islamic influence. A key goal is to place nations under SHARIAH.

SHARIAH is a Muslim system of rules and laws based on the Quran that govern all aspects of life, including food, dress and religious tithing, or zakat. In nations living under SHARIAH such as Iran and Saudi Arabia, there is little or no distinction between religion and state. In its most fundamental form, SHARIAH also mandates harsh criminal punishments, such as stonings and cutting off thieves' hands.

In the U.S., the BROTHERHOOD emerged as an immigrant student movement in the 1960s, but according to experts, there is no current discernible MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD presence in the U.S. today, although most agree some of its adherents remain.

Esam Omeish, president of the Virginia-based MUSLIM AMERICAN SOCIETY, or MAS, says the documents introduced in the Holy Land trial are full of "abhorrent statements and are in direct conflict of the very principles of our Islam."

"The Muslim community in America wishes to contribute positively to the continued success and greatness of our civilization," Dr. Omeish said. "The ethics of tolerance and inclusion are the very tenets that MAS was based on from its inception."

His group, formed in 1993, is thought by many to be the BROTHERHOOD's current incarnation in the U.S., although he and other MAS leaders say their group formed as an alternative to radicalism.

"MAS is not the MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD," Dr. Omeish said. The society "grew out of a history of Islamic activism in the U.S. when the MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD once existed but has a different intellectual paradigm and outlook."

Nope, not yet, but I'm only half-way through Chapter 2.

Rick:

I appreciate your love and respect for Victoria. May Allah bless you.

BTW, are you a convert to Islam ?

Deb,

As Victoria always says, we must look at the entire work in its whole, not just cherry pick the bad parts.

If we did that with the Judeo-Christian OT, we would learn that we are commanded to kill all those who work on the Sabbath, all children who curse their parents, all who curse the Lord (God dam* it!), steal their neighbor’s slave, all gays, all wh*res, etc., etc., etc….

Get the picture?

I prefer to focus my wrath on the Moron in the White House who is committing genocide with my tax dollars, and inciting the nut jobs to retaliate. I can do something about that next November 2008.

Rick:

Can you please quote verbatim from the Quran (copy of which you may have) what it says in the following places:

(a) Quran (002:216)
(b) Quran (004:095)
(c) Quran (005:033)
(d) Quran (008:038,039)
(e) Quran (009:005,029)
(f) Quran (047:004)

And can you provide the contexts behind these messages, and how the relate to the present time ?

The Quran's vicious attitude towards non-Muslims has been legitimized by the existence of Israel and the Jewish people. For your information, long before this present-day "criminal land and oil-field grabs" (??) started, Muhammad was reportedly killing/expelling/converting Jews as one may read in any credible biography of him, except the sanitized ones made especially pleasant for the US market. This was just to exemplify how to follow Allah's timeless message of "peace". There were no running oil-fields then in Makkah and Madinah. Jews did not grab anything from Muslims at that time in 629 A.D.

Get the drift of my answer to your question, Rick ?

Deb,

And what do you suppose is the root cause of your:

…(IED) bomb blast victims wailing as they were pushed into the ambulances with their children and family crying haplessly…

…bomb-throwing, throat-slitting jihadis…

… bombings, decapitations,…

It couldn’t be the criminal land and oil field grabs in Palestine and Iraq by the world’s foremost terrorist state US_Israel could it?

Victoria,

This Chapter 2, Verses 1-60 so far is very similar to the Judeo-Christian OT. Adam and his wife (not named as Eve) in verse 35 dwell in the Garden but commanded not to eat of one specific tree.

But Satan makes them eat of course and they are thrown out of the Garden.

Verse 40: O Children of Israel call to mind the special favour which I bestowed upon you.

Verse 49: And remember, We delivered you from the people of Pharoah…

Verse 50: And remember we divided the sea…

This is very similar too OT so far, except:

Verse 62: Those who believe (in the Qur’an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians, - any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with the Lord…

This is very different and inclusive of all religions. It sounds like the God of Islam (Allah) and the Judeo-Christian God (Jehova) are the same.

Hermit,

I would suggest, upon reading your response, to get out of the crabby shell and see the reality. The imaginative "we'll not bow down before terrorists and/or allow ourselves to be terrorized" sounds pretty primitive. What plans do you have to combat terrorists - all poised to let loose their "dogs of war" ? Simply saying that you refuse to be overwhelmed/consumed by the fear of terrorism sounds naive and stupid.

Please have some concrete action plans on how to do this. Do plan non-violence (Gandhian methods) to counter violence ? How would you react if you were witnessing (IED) bomb blast victims wailing as they were pushed into the ambulances with their children and family crying haplessly ? Advice the victims to have patience, not to overreact and ask them to move onwith their lives ? If that's what you propose, then we have starkly divergent views. Every innocent life is worth saving and any effort to thwart the Muslim terrorists from carrying out their plans of increasing the body-count is worth better than your repudiation of "overreaction". Unless you clarify your position on overreaction and all that babble, you do sound as a bleeding heart leftist liberal - a lost cause.

Also, much to the contrary, "moderate Muslims" don't exist. There are active (bomb-throwing, throat-slitting jihadis) and passive believers. Passive (Muslim) believers, in my view, are not living upto the dictates of the Quran (004:095) which states very clearly that:

" Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-" (ABDULLAH YUSUF ALI's English translation of the Quran].

(Check out the University of Southern California Muslim Student Association Islam link:
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html)

Also, it is a weird thing that moderate Muslims do blame non-Muslims for puuting all Muslims and Islam in the same category as the terrorists. These "moderates" say that Islam is a peaceful religion. That's of course half-true. Islam means Submission to the Supreme Will. The same USC website states that it is false to assume that Islam is a religion of peace. (Check the website very thoroughly.) So, Islam is indeed not a peaceful religion and advocates violence. Some on this blog, such as thge faithful Muslimah Victoria, can make all kinds of absurd claims, but such claims have to accepted by the Islamic scholarship. Till such claims are acceptable by the majority of the Muslim ummah, and not just in USA, I shall hold that Islam is not a religion of peace.

Secondly, if moderate Muslims are claiming that terrorists are a tiny minority distorting Islam by their violent actions, then it is incumbent upon the Muslims to rid their religion of such radical fanatics, such as Osama bin Laden, and the Taliban/Al-Qaeda variety. Thus, in this war against (Islamic) terror, I would have expected that countries like Pakistan, Bangladesh, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Iran, United Arab Emirates, Oman, Jordan, Turkey, Syria, Lebanon, Indonesia, Malaysia, Egypt, Palestine, Algeria, Morocco and all other Islamic Republics or Muslim majority countries to send a convoy of special army equipped with arms to Afghanistan, Sudan, Somalia and other troublespots to have the Al-Qaeda or other terrorists smoked out and handed over to International Justice for committing crimes against humanity. It would then show the true commitment of these Muslim majority countries to a true benign and tolerant form of Islam. Such would really generate hope amongst non-Muslims for a co-existence with Muslims. But, absence of such efforts show that, to paraphrase Samuel Huntington, Islam prefers bloody borders.

We (non-Muslims) don't know why, not do we (non-Muslims) have an obligation to know why it did not happen. The action would require Islam to be reformed. Such reforms have to be generated and accepted by Muslims only. Societal reforms cannot be imposed by others externally. Anytime such possibilities are discussed, it gets pegged with the issue of Israel vs. Palestinian conflict, and USA's support for Israel. Well, for me, I am tired of this hypocrisy. I see bombings, decapitations, and then incongrous double-talk by leftist liberals (like you Hermit) and only despair. There must "moderate Muslims", according to you Hermit, but any absence of collective action from such a group makes their existence imaginary - to state politely.

rick- congratulations on your decision to find out for yourself what the qu'ran says instead of letting others decide for you.

i really really really recommend you just get a paperback english translation and just read it through.

trying to read 3 different translations on a computer screen (to me) is really annoying and distracting.
also theres no continuity of thought or reasoning.
that site is for comaparative studies.

im more like ray bradbury- i love to feel a book in my hands and take it with me wherever i go-

there are several promising looking translations that may be coming to print soon, and an excellent one by asma aslan called unreading the patriarchal qu'ran-

just stay far far away from the noble qu'ran.
far far far away.
there are so many parenthetical insertions in it- that sometimes it barely resembles the qu'ran, but seems like the translator is just putting forth their own views. and those views are very fundamentalist and rigid.

im on the 14th sura (chapter) now.

another interesting difference about the qu'ran-
it does not follow a chronological timetable- its not a story like the bible, or tanakh(jewish books) or upanishads.

alright then, peace- im a little busy today so ill check back insha'alla. (if the god wills it)

the pew poll is the one most cited-

of course you have to examine it for a bit-

http://pewresearch.org/assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf

it includes methodology and breakdowns that answer any of the questions by the author.

Yep, I think so. The Hermit must be Kenneth Ballen. I found this link to an interesting blog (The Blog from Hell) that takes issue with your conclusions based on your poll. It makes some good points. Are Harry Truman and George Bush terrorists? They both have slaughtered a lot of civillians. I think not. In the case of Bush, he is just a moron. In the case of Truman, his actions were probably justified.

I will have to study some more to see which side I come down on.

What do you think Victoria?

http://normdoering.blogspot.com/2007/03/terror-free-tomorrow.html

I found a Christian Science Monitor article called, "The myth of Muslim support for terror" about a poll conducted by an organization called Terror Free Tomorrow that claims to show that Muslim countries have fewer pro-terrorist attitudes than Americans do.

The article begins with this paragraph:

"Those who think that Muslim countries and pro-terrorist attitudes go hand-in-hand might be shocked by new polling research: Americans are more approving of terrorist attacks against civilians than any major Muslim country except for Nigeria."

According to the article U.S. citizens are more approving of "terrorist attacks" than most Muslim countries. However, I smell a rat. Maybe I'm paranoid and too deeply distrustful of Washington but something doesn't add up.

The author of the Christian Science Monitor article is Kenneth Ballen and he happens to be the founder and president of Terror Free Tomorrow, a non-partisan, 501(c)(3) not-for-profit organization in Washington, D.C. whose advisory board is headed by Senator John McCain and Lee H. Hamilton.

In Iran, your existence will be denied and then erased from memory:

http://pageoneq.com/news/2007/Irans_President_scrubs_reference_to_gays_in_speech_fr_0925.html

I can't believe the support Ahmadinejad has in Muslim communities worldwide. I'm beginning to understand how this works..

So Hermit,

Let me guess, you are not John MaCain or Lee Hamilton. How about Kenneth Ballen?

I'm impressed, whoever you are.

Deb says: "The Islamic radicals are not *numerically* a big force. However, they wreck havoc with their mode of combat - asymmetrical warfare/terrorism. This paralyzes any government and they are often unable to deal with in a conventional manner."

Well that's exactly my point, Deb. Terrorism is only effective if we allow ourselves to become terrified. The goal of any terrorist attack is not the immediate damage of the attack itself, it's the hoped for over-reaction by the targeted government.

How often have we seen peace talks in the middle east derailed because of a terrorist attack? If it looks like progress is being made someone (usually the Palestinians, but not always) who opposes the peace process commits an atrocity and the victimized side (usually, but not always, the Israelis) accomadate the terrorists and do exactly what they wanted by pulling out of the talks. I've never understood why...

It's the over-reaction by US that gives the terrorists power beyond their numbers. When we start lumping all of Islam in with the terrorists (which makes as much sense in the real world as lumping all Catholics in with the IRA or all SOuthern Baptists in with the Ku Klux Klan) we give them power by making them look bigger and more powerful than they really are.

I have no interest in defending Islamic theology or tradition any more than I'm interested in the Christian version (and yes, I have read the Quran, though I'm admittedly more familiar with the Bible's atrocities, contradictions and absurdities...I don't personally have much use for either of them) and I'm not being some naive bleeding heart here, Deb, if that's what you're thinking. I'm being a hard nosed realist who refuses to play the game by the terrorist's rules. When you accept the extremist's narrative of "us vs them" you have already surrendered to them.

Like I keep saying, I refuse to live in fear and I won't be manipulated into being part of the problem.

-----------

James; the problem in Europe isn't multicultualism, its a lack of multiculturalism. In France, for example, Muslim residents are expected to be French first; their girls are not allowed to wear headscarves to school in the interest of having everyoneconform to a French image. At the same time, if you have brown skin and an Arab name you wil find it very difficult to be taken seriously when you look for a job. In Germany the Turkish population are still second class citizens, invited in as "guest workers" but never afforded full citizenship. It's this kind of separation which creates hard feelings.

Here in North America there is a lot more accptance of other cultures and religions, and the result, as reflected in opinion pols, is a society whee most people, including Muslims, see themselves as Americans or Canadians first.

http://pewforum.org/surveys/muslim-american/

As for support for terrorism, here's some interesting facts to consider:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0223/p09s01-coop.html

"Those who think that Muslim countries and pro-terrorist attitudes go hand-in-hand might be shocked by new polling research: Americans are more approving of terrorist attacks against civilians than any major Muslim country except for Nigeria.

The survey, conducted in December 2006 by the University of Maryland's prestigious Program on International Public Attitudes, shows that only 46 percent of Americans think that "bombing and other attacks intentionally aimed at civilians" are "never justified," while 24 percent believe these attacks are "often or sometimes justified."

Contrast those numbers with 2006 polling results from the world's most-populous Muslim countries – Indonesia, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Nigeria. Terror Free Tomorrow, the organization I lead, found that 74 percent of respondents in Indonesia agreed that terrorist attacks are "never justified"; in Pakistan, that figure was 86 percent; in Bangladesh, 81 percent."

People in Muslim countries are less likely than Americans to express support for deliberate attacks on civilians. Who should I be more worried about?

Regards

A Hermit

Deb-

Americans are becoming increasingly aware of the tragedy of multiculturalism. In America (as in Europe) Islam is using weak bureaucracy and left leaning institutions (like the media and the "politically correct") to slowly but methodically introduce the cult of Islam and their Shari’a law into our societies.

America must learn from Europe. Assimilation there was preordained by a 1970 pact with the Arabs to exchange oil at a favorable price for letting Muslims immigrate in great numbers into Europe, and for Europe to take the Muslim side in international dealings with the Arabs against Israel. They now face Islamization.

Contrary to the "politically correct" popular belief, not all religions are good and not all are equal to other religions. Islam is promoted by some in America as a “religion of peace,” but in reality the Allah that Islam worships believes in killing or making slaves of all non-believers. That makes Islam not a true religion but an ideology which demands the death sentence for any Muslim who departs from it and its rigid demands.

PLEASE NOTE: a Muslim's strict allegiance is not to America but to their ideological group- Islam. There is no choice for true Muslim believers. Although they live among us, they do not hold traditional American ideals.

Islam is hardly a “religion of peace” – It is more appropriately designated as a “cult of death”. Islamic culture elevates their suicide bombers and mujahadeen to “idol martyr" social status. We all need to pay attention and learn to think independent of the "politically correct". We must assist in the dissemination of these truths and help to counter the plague that is upon us.

Deb Chatterjee,

My opinion, for what it is worth, is that our openness to different ideas is the source of our strength. We should not be in the business of limiting immigration, or expelling people as has been suggested by some, based on peoples’ religious beliefs.

I think that as we evolve, as time goes on, the position of the atheist/agnostic and scientific thought will naturally win out over religious beliefs, especially those of the obviously ridiculous extremists.

You may think that this is dangerous liberal sentiment, but I agree with the Hermit; the closed minded bigotry of the right wing nut jobs is far more dangerous.

PS:

Thanks for the link to the Qur’an. Now I can read along with Victoria and quiz her on difficult passages. I just finished Chapter 1. It seemed innocuous enough. Which chapter are you on Victoria? When does the Ramadan end?

Salaam

DONT ASK ME IF I FOLLOW SO FAR DEB- I POSTED THE LINK

way beyond any mild callousness- was her dishonesty, and her betrayal of friends- and that her own selfish pursuits made her oblivious to the danger she put other people in -

you obviously missed the part where she deliberately revealed the identity of the second director- knowing that to do so would jeopardize his safety-

if you know someone is murderous- and you deliberately lead them to a "friend" just sothat you can use that 'friend' to further your own hate agenda- it is a despicable and foul act

you were glowing about her as a source of islamic knowledge- but shes corrupt and ruthlessly self promoting and driven.

there are so many other instances in those letters-

but mostly the regret of people who knew and befriended her and her betrayal of them.

deb- the fact that you can minimize the details of these letters- by characterizing them as "tactless" (hardly a bad thing)
shows how ridiculously you spin even evidence in front of you to your own agenda- which finds resonance in this poor twisted woman who betrayed her friends, THE GOVERNMENT AND PARTY THAT GAVE HER SANCTUARY-
remember "to hell with the VDD?"

dont talk to me like im stupid deb becuase im sick of your sneakiness

you try to corrupt and vilify islam because tof the overwhelming hatred and anger in your own heart-

now you seek to justify this disgusting behavior in others when it is exposed

you will never convince me of anything except your own bad intentions

ill answer or not answer as i see fit- but i do not in any way respect your hatred

i didnt even read the rest of your post- besides- you dont have the honesty or objectivity to even interpret what is before you

i never hear you speak of faith, of god, of anything good about anything

only long and ugly harangues about islam

i cannot even begin to imagine what fuels such an obsession- but i cease to expect anything of value from your opinions

Victoria:

The link to MIM was worth. Thank you.

However, what that link shows was the tactless nature of Ayaan Hirsi Ali. The letters on the MIM show that Ali was busy self-promoting herself and hence her callous self-absorbtion is speculated as a reason for Theo van Gogh's brutal death by a Muslim. (I don't agree that Ali has done a bad thing by polarizing Holland to its extremes. She was right and the contents of the letters have differences with me on this issue. Do you follow so far ?)

You maybe aware of the radical Islam is the cause of van Gogh death. I am sure you don't support it, but you (like many so-called moderate Muslims) have not taken any vocal stand against your fellow fanatic/radical Muslims. It is also happening in USA. FOX news (your favorite channel) had a newspiece that stated that many Muslims in USA are also engaging in polygamy - as the religion sanctions it. Slowly we do expect to see that with the growth of the Muslim population, the America that non-Muslim citizens like me knew does not exist. Rather the Third World political culture - steeped in respecting religious groupies shall come to force. It is this phenomenon that is quite alarming. What would your position be if your favorite organization CAIR actively promotes, thanks to brother Dr. Ibrahim Hooper, Shariah law for Muslims. Of course that clown Hooper had supported the 9/11 by stating that America deserved it. There was little outcry amongst the US Muslim community over such remarks. Same thing with this rabid Muslim - Mahmoud Ahmadinejad - who is getting accolades from some visible section of the American Muslim community for taking it out on USA in US soil. I am sure that 20 years ago, this form of blatant anti-national sentiment would have no takers. I am sorry, but with the growth of Islam inside USA, such self-destructive acts are proliferating. The 9/11 terrorists may receive good support from some quarters of the Muslims in USA. (In UK they already have received support.) So, with the growth of the Muslim population the demise of any secular country is bound to happen. At least history shows that. This is the price that any country (and hence the world) shall pay for letting Islam be the world's fastest growing religion.

With obfuscators like you, who have been programmed to negate anything bad about Islam or cry out hoarse against any acerbic critique, the USA faces peril. I don't know where to start, but do see that regulating the Muslim population is an essential step in combating future 9/11 scenarios.

o BTW i noticed that i didnt say what the link there is- its a super right wing american conservative anti-muslim site- kind of like jihadwatch
its leading author is daniel pipes

just in case deb wants to claim its not valid because its slanted or liberal

its about ayaan ali hirsi

WOW talk about extreme censorship.

ive been trying to post the contents of that link for almost 2 solid months now

once every day for a week i tried.

just now i tried to post one PARAGRAPH out of it, it is always held by the bloggers for approval and then just disappears.

hmmm

deb, do you really think you can call hermit simpleminded and then expect him to dialogue with you?

even if you ever manage to come up with a point that isnt based on hating muslims- who will be left to listen to you?

Hermit:

The Islamic radicals are not *numerically* a big force. However, they wreck havoc with their mode of combat - asymmetrical warfare/terrorism. This paralyzes any government and they are often unable to deal with in a conventional manner. Even General David Petraeus is on record that this is a problem they are facing. BTW, it looks like you are simple-minded enough to view Islamic terrorism as a conventional law and order issue. Most liberals do view it the same way.

Finally, your wishful negation of the Islamic radicals and their power is not shared by me. I have read and seen enough to see the flaws in the arguments advanced by liberals. However our mutual debate on this blog or elsewhere does not diminish the most barbaric nature of radical Islam. For an academic understanding I suggest you start reading more about Islam at the website:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/msa/quran

Also, to know about the life of Muhammad, which is necessary to understand how Islam wants to manifest itself in various circumstances, read the book by Robert Spencer, THE TRUTH ABOUT MUHAMMAD: FOUNDER OF THE WORLD'S MOST INTOLERANT RELIGION. This book explains why Islamic terrorism is the most dangerous force and how may the war on Islamic terror be won. Yes, liberals may not like the book.

That should explain the mindset of the 9/11 terrorists all of whom came from affluent backgrounds and had significant western education, and also including the notorious Khaled Sheikh Muhammad who had MS degrees in engineering from USA. This phenomeon explains why obfuscators like Victoria when they raise the bogey of "moderate Muslims/benign Islam" are actually deceiving the American public. In reality, and from its history, Islamic countries are NOT moderates. This means Islamic countries which have accepted Islam as a state religion. So, I think Victoria, your friend is not the one who can be relied upon. There is more than what she says. Of course, "moderate Muslims" have often become the hardlined radicals at the flimsiest of reasons. (The Glasgow bomber, Dr. Kafeel Ahmed, was one such case.)

BTW, have you read the Quran ? Also, if you have read Ayaan Hirsi Ali, what do you think of her categorization of Muslims ?

"Read Ayaan Hirsi Ali's view about "moderate Muslims" and then lecture others."

Have done; and a few others as well, and talked to some actual moderate Muslims including Victoria here.

The only absurdity here, Deb, is the idea that radical Islamists are a big enough force to destroy Western civilization. They aren't.

The fascistic neo-cons who exploit the ignorance, fear and bigotry stirred up by the terrorists, on the other hand, are capable of doing a lot more damage than any anarchist.

Now, I personally think the whole world would be better off if everyone just let go of the superstitious aspects of all religions, Islam included, but I'm not going to run around quaking in fear or jumping to conclusions about people just because of their religious affiliation. I prefer to deal with people as individuals, not as stereotypes. You should try it, you might like it...;-)

Regards

A Hermit

Hermit:

Read Ayaan Hirsi Ali's view about "moderate Muslims" and then lecture others.

If the message of Islam is good or bad according to interpretation, then Islam is totally phony baloney. If the Quran is same for Osama bin Laden and for Victoria, then I fail to see how the concept of "moderate" Muslim comes as a legitimate definition in the Islamic lore.

There is nothing called "moderate Muslim". Because the Western culture and America is going to be destroyed, we see such absurd labeling. USA (and the western world) should wake up from the proverbial slumber if they want to avoid the "wrath of Allah".

Peace be with you.

Mike,

Thanks for the information, just more reason to stop enriching the Middle East with our dependence on oil.

It would also be a good to idea to stop financing our foreign misadventures, as well as our domestic gluttony (like tax cuts for the wealthy), through borrowing from China. They already have us over the barrel, so to speak.

Deb Chatterjee; the problem you and a lot of other people seem to have is an inability to make a distinction between the "nutjobs" and the mainstream, average believers. It's like looking at Fred Phelps or David Duke and assuming that all Christians share their insanity.

As an atheist I have no use for any religion, personally, but I don't make the mistake of thinking that all believers accept the most extreme versions of their faith. When you saddle someone like Victoria with the views of that Australian "nutjob" you are doing her a great disservice, and depriving yourself of the opportunity to learn a little something about the real world views of a moderate Muslim. We need more of that and less of the blind, frightened lashing out that we so often see around here.

Regards

A Hermit

"This hatred is not part of a global plan by Islam to conquer the world and convert us all to Islam"

FYI:

The governments of Dubai and Qatar were locked in battle Thursday to gain key footholds in some of the world's top stock exchanges, including the Nasdaq Stock Market and the London Stock Exchange, using cash gained from record oil prices.

The Nasdaq Stock Market reached a deal with Borse Dubai that will allow it to win control of a key Nordic exchange operator, the OMX, in return for giving up most of its holding in the London Stock Exchange as well as a fifth of itself.

The proposed plan would put an end to months of fighting between Dubai and the Nasdaq over the fate of the OMX -- and would for the first time bring Middle East ownership to one of America's two main stock exchanges.

http://www.marketwatch.com/News/Story/qatar-dubai-battle-footholds-top/story.aspx?guid=%7B64061376%2D27F3%2D4645%2DB071%2D8A072BABC62F%7D

OK fellow bloggers, let's recap, the question of the day is:

'On the anniversary of 9/11, what message would you like to send religious extremists?’

Religious extremists and terrorist radical groups exist and are increasing in number and capability. They are driven by hatred of the USA and Israel for our immoral and illegal occupation of Muslim holy land in Palestine and Iraq.

This hatred is not part of a global plan by Islam to conquer the world and convert us all to Islam, as the neocons and their minions in the White House would have us believe.

If we want to put a stop to these growing radical groups, we only have to put a stop to our illegal and immoral War on Islam.

And what is the root cause of our illegal and immoral behavior? It is the fact that they own the Oil Fields, and we want them.

Wake up people; let’s break our dependence on Middle East oil. We cannot keep the oil flowing by using overwhelming military power. The Powel Doctrine is dead. It cannot defeat the insurgent who swims in the sea of the people, as twice proven now in Vietnam and Iraq.

Imagine if the trillion dollars squandered on invading and occupying Palestine and Iraq had instead been spent on infrastructure, conservation and alternate energy sources. How much better off would be our economy as well as our national security.

well deb- you asked, i answered.

i did give you the benefit that you might actually be interested in an answer, and your intentions may have changed.
its pretty obvious you need a target-
but its not going to be me.

go chase your dark demons if you must, but i decline further communication.

Victoria,

You are just hiding behind the veil/charade of decency. Arguments and debates can turn ugly. People in USA/Europe have fought duels over arguments/opinions and got killed.

Muhammad had killed those who opposed his position or had rebelled against his message (of Islam). Unpleasant ? Yes. False ? No.

This is America. Its not some barbaric Islamic country that stones women. Free speech and that means obscene/arrogant speech needs to be tolerated. As long as that speech is not materially harming you, i.e., you don't lose your job or money or honey, you should not go bananas.

Quite frankly you sound like that nutjob Muslim Imam from Australia who stated that unclad women (implying women in bra and bikini on the beaches) are like uncovered fresh meat and shall legitimately attract rats for "tasting". (Implying that it is OK if men sexually attack such scantily clad women.)

Do you believe in Freedom of Speech ? Its opposite of Quran (005:033) though. No ?

deb- i boycotted you for awhile in the past because you were so overtly hateful in your posts to me personally.

if you come back with some ugliness- im cutting off.

deb- well- its awfully hard to give a straight answer to a crooked quesiton-
but ill try

1) i would show the where it says in the qu'ran that any who commit suicide is cursed by ALLAH abd their destination is hell

4:95 says to not sit at home when there is a fight that must be fought.
if someone is using that to justify their homicidal tendencies- (for whatever bizarre reason) then they are a maninac and there is probably no amount of reason or qu'ran that will affect them.

personally, there are no maniacs in my life that i love- or ever have to be honest.

the moon is not a holy symbol in islam.
so if someone is driven to suicidal extremes because they feel the moon is defiled- they are simply insane.

you have a bizarre and freaky mentality to imainge such reasons could make a person suicidal deb.

i dont fool myself that you have benign intentions here to ask such strange and twisted questions-

i imagine i will probably regret even asnwering you- as youve said many times that you hate islam.

also youve been really aggressive and disrespectful to me in the past-

i know you dont ask to understand- but have some motive to use what i say in a bad way.

finally- here is what i say to you-

a strong man is not strong because he overpowers others, but because he controls his anger.
(a paraphrase from the Prophet(pbuh)

Victoria (Muslimah):

I have a question for you. Suppose if your loved one (whosoever it maybe) just got radicalized and turned into a suicide bomber/terrorist, and then justifed his radical doctrine following Quran (004:095), like this guy Kafeel Ahmed - Glasgow bomber - what would your message to him/her as an American be ?

P.S.: Assume that the suicide bomber (someone you have loved) was radicalized, say, because USA has not banned Satanic Verses and people criticize Muhammad freely, causing wrath and ire of the faithful (Muslims). Or, maybe USA is in Iraq or maybe USA has not turned into an Islamic Republic or maybe USA sent men to the moon, and moon is a holy symbol in the Islamicv traditions. Any number of reasons can be considered.

Oh, before I forget: please answer, if you can, just to the point and don't just "beat about the bush" - you know what I mean ?

NOW:

victoria and rick can apologise to the readers who had to view their inappropriate posts on a board dedicated to "faith and its implications in a way that sheds light rather than generates heat."

I'm sorry Victoria. I did not mean to offend.

rick- i appreciate your good sentiments- but im a married lady, and i love you baby is a bit inappropriate-
but i know you mean it innocently so i take it i that spirit

peace

RICK- come see whats shaking in this corner of the blogosphere-

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/eboo_patel/2007/09/on_muslim_antisemitism/all_comments.html

Also in the WP: Shock Waves from Syria - Did Israel bomb a secret nuclear facility equipped by North Korea? http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/19/AR2007091901965.html

So the message to the Israelis is, your best bet is to take the next boat for Texas. If you keep this up, someone is sure to lay a few nuclear eggs in Tel Aviv and Haifa.

Also in today’s WP we see that: Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said Thursday an upcoming U.S.-sponsored Mideast conference must be "substantive," and that Israel and the Palestinians must draft a document beforehand that lays "foundations for serious negotiations."

The Palestinians want the conference, tentatively set for November, to yield an outline for a peace deal, complete with a timetable, while Israel wants a vaguer declaration of intent. Key Arab states, such as Saudi Arabia, have said they would only attend if concrete results are achieved. (Fat Chance). http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/20/AR2007092000289.html

As the the question of a message to the religious extremists, I say the message is to the British and American imperialists who are responsible for the creation of the extremists and terrorists in the first place:

For the case of the British, who were being terrorized by Menachem Begin’s Irgun, they should not have caved in and vacated the Palestine, leaving it to the terrorists.

Because the British caved in to the terrorist demands, we have had 60 years of uninterrupted war and terror in the so called ‘Holy Land’. Countless thousands of innocents (women and children) have been slaughtered, and millions of families have been driven into refugee camps in neighboring countries.

In today’s Washington Post we see that the Israelis are threatening to cut off the Gaza strip’s fuel and electricity. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/19/AR2007091901156.html

i just came upon this one while surfing, i looks interesting

cant vouch for it as i only skimmed it
http://zionofascism.wordpress.com/2007/04/08/zionism-and-911-rosie-and-roseanne/

Thanks Victoria.

here are some sites for you rick
you my know them already

http://www.palestineremembered.com/index.html

http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/

Speaking of 9/11, and since the primary cause of the attack on 9/11 was the mess in the Middle East, here's a post from another thread that applies here:

Rick says:

The question is:

What's the first thing Tony Blair should do if he wants to make progress as the Quartet's Mideast peace envoy? ("Quit" is not an acceptable answer.)

Since Britain started this whole mess with the Balfour Declaration in 1917, this is a singularly appropriate question.

Zuni says: ‘There never was a legitimate state of Palestine.’

Rick says: True, but following WWI, there was a British Mandate of Palestine that included Palestine and Transjordan, in which Palestine occupied the region now occupied by the illegitimate ‘State of Israel’, the West Bank and Gaza.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Zuni says: ‘What in the hell is illegal and immoral about the Balfour declaration and Jewish, nee Zionist immigration?

Rick says: From Wikipedia ‘The Balfour Declaration of 1917 (dated November 2, 1917) was a classified formal statement of policy by the British government on the partitioning of the Ottoman Empire in the aftermath of the World War I.

The letter stated the position, agreed at a British Cabinet meeting on October 31, 1917, that the British government supported Zionist plans for a Jewish "national home" in Palestine, with the condition that nothing should be done which might prejudice the rights of existing communities there.

So the result was the forceful injection by the Crusaders, of the Zionist Jews, who had been expelled from the region 2000 years ago; they could not coexist in peace with the native population. They had invaded and occupied this region following their great escape from slavery in Egypt; they had a Holier than Thou attitude, and claimed to be God’s chosen people.

Who would have thought that such a Zionist immigration could ever satisfy: ‘the condition that nothing should be done which might prejudice the rights of existing communities’ of Palestine?

The British soon recognized the folly of this policy and attempted to halt the Zionist immigration. They were attacked by a group named Irgun (some call it Etzel), established by the Right-Wing of the Zionist Movement in Palestine and the violent wing of the Zionist movement. The most well-known of these attacks was the King David Hotel bombing which occurred on July 22, 1946. This was a well-planned act engineered by the Irgun's Leader and future Prime Minster, Menachem Begin.

So the Balfour Declaration, and resulting Zionist immigration, was a terrible mistake. The British tried and failed to reverse this terrible decision.

Repercussions of this heinous crime are behind all turmoil and bloodshed in the Middle East including Iraq, Lebanon, Palestinian occupied territories, Syria, Iran etc.

The whole world will never see peace as long as the crime of the 20th century is not corrected.

thanks rick -theyre everywhere arent they?

thanks rick -theyre everywhere arent they?

YAWN. Dear jihaddist,

I do not try to converse with cowards. It is true that muslims are all cowards by definition because they are afraid to challenge their own beliefs. If you do, your "brothers and sisters" who are likewise vicious cowards, are commanded to kill you. How odd that your allh seems to have the same level of insecurity about chllenge to his doctrine as a common con man, and will allow no questioning of it by reason or experiment. No small wonder then, that you are so terrified of your allh that you will never allow youself to use the free thought that you have been granted by the all mighty true God, and will forever remain a coward who shivers in fear all of his life, without the courage to allow experimentation outside the rigid island of doctrine shoved through a time portal from a thousand years ago, and right down your own willing, wide open throat. So you will wear the doctrine of islam like a bridle or a muzzle on a poor beast of burden or yoke upon a slave. And apparently, like someone wholly broken in spirit or brainwashed, you choose to remain enslaved willingly.

I would no sooner try to communicate with a person like you than I would an animal. You are by your own description, a fanatic (as are all devout muslims) and therefore, beyond reason.

fanatic : a person with extreme, uncritical enthusiasm or zeal, as in politics or religion.

It serves no positive purpose to try to communicate with someone who is not open to reason. Clearly as a devout supporter of the cult of islam, you are either insane, hopelessly naive and easily led or else wicked beyond words to easily define. This is true because you openly advocate for a belief system that is misanthropic and deceitful by it's very explicit nature. It takes no parsing to find the infamy of islamic doctrine. One need only open and read from the Satanic Verses one's self.

I wish there were a bell that would ring every time you have written a statement above that you know to be a lie.

muslim organizations and leaders do not deliberately support terrorism - ding!

islam does not advocate the denigration or subjugation of women - ding!

mosques do not wuillingly often function as terrorist bases - ding!

islam is a relgion that more than anything promotes world peace - ding !

muslims do not want to take over the world by force or destroy it trying -ding!

Perhaps instead of changing the subject every time someone asks you a direct question (the favored ploy of those addicted to dishonesty), you could answer them directly? For instance, if you are not a coward (ding!),

why not explain briefly and directly please, answers to the following simple questions :

Why does your beloved koran tells it's followers to kill anyone who converts from islam to some other faith?

Why does the same text allow the murder of women for having an affair out of wedlock?

Why does your beloved koran advise on how and when a male may have sex with a goat or other helpless animal?

Why does islam preach that those who do not believe in allah should be murdered if they stand in the way of international conquest in your "religious leader's" name ?

How can any moral, sane "holy" text advise it's followers to deliberately lie to someone's face and then do exactly the opposite of what they promise to do (al Taqiyya) ?

How about a direct answer to one of those questions muslim instead of the coy, unmasculine, humiliating cowardice you display in avoiding those questions and retreating into silly prevarications and cute little tinkerbell-dances of deception ? Most non-muslim females have more courage and honesty in discourse than you who call yourself muslim ! You thereby humiliate your family each moment you draw breath to utter another lie. Shameful beyond words. How can anything but death and damnation be your reward then, when you dishonor your family by endless lies and trampling underfoot of truth ?

Tell me then,"muslim" why would any decent man wish to converse with you ?

In fact, if an audible "ding" automatically went off every time you lied in one of your above posts, each post would sound like one of those charming music boxes. YAWN!! Your thoughts and questions are like the mouthing of a beast. Remember mindless muslim, just because a creature has learned to wear clothing and to speak does not necessarily make it a human being. The law of Karma states, "As you treat others, so you shall be treated". Your precious islam preaches that non-believers who oppose your aspirations and laws are to be treated no better than animals. So you shall then be treated, and I regret, penned and slaughtered like animals when you take up the Satanic jihad against all that is Good and Just.

I advise others who post here to ignore and not to reply to your posts any further - althoug it has been amusing to see your assertions refuted with such skill and wit (I have derived great mirth and pride from them). In my way of life, (that of a civilized human being) one does not try to converse with the insane, one merely smiles and walks away. There is no reason left in you so long as you believe in and promulgate the endless infinite lies and blasphemies against the Human Spirit of what you and your kind call "islam". Selah.

May we meet on the battlefield some day so that I may personally correct your misconceptions about the civlized humans of the world, and truly show you paradise -- animal-who-wears clothing! Perhaps then that squirming thing between your ears will at long last find rest, as did the shamefully impotent defenders of the Ottoman Empire. If I cannot convert you to sanity, then you must be neutralized. Your insanity may not be entirely your own fault, but just as with a dog who has contracted rabies through no fault of it's own. We know that the so called moderate moslims enable and support the jihadists with their own political acts (and yet deny it ceaselessly).

I hope that so long as you remain faithful to the demon allah, you may find every other true muslim jihaddist's ultimate reward - to die screaming. So far in this War to End all Wars that your adored Usama Bin Laden began (or rather continued after you guys got your savage, *sses kicked out of Europe and Turkey in the 10th century after you tried to take over the world the first time), we have sent what about 100,000 of you to discover first hand (whether there are virgins waiting for you to abuse in) the afterlife? Selah! Here's a couple of questions for you to answer, animal-who-speaks :

Q : What do you call 100,000 dead muslim jihaddists?
A : A good start.

Q : How do you know when a devout muslim is lying ?
A : Their mouth is open!

Seeya, wouldn't wanna beeya! Signed - Joe Mamma and Joe Daddy Too - your friends! ding!!

Victoria..

I read it here, agreed, and repeated it in my post.

You need a rest.

Hi Victoria,

Don't let the trolls bother you. The Force is with you.

that was victoria

MARIAN- you'll notice the use of the same phrase in each post
one anonymous (or a different anonymous name like "someone or insight")
then one with your name

akk these posts are from different boards
but you'll notice the one with your name, and the anonymous posting on the salman rushdie question (example two) use the EXACT SAME PHRASE.

AND THEN THE LAST ONE AT 6:43 am
AND 6:58 AM

ALSO INSIGHT AT 6:11 AM THIS MORNING on the middle east blog(which i didnt include here)

so okay marian-
even your above statement-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"
Sure I'm the anon posters (I do occasionally agree with them)."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
certainly bears the grain of truth within it- many a truth is said in jest they say

also, each post is one anonymous, and one marian
but there is no way to deny the second example with the exact same words- that definitively proves you post sometimes anonymous sometimes with your name (on different blogs)
EXAMPLE ONE***********************

ANONYMOUS POST THEN MARIAN POST
SOMEONE :
Victoria, Victoria like we care what you are doing right now. You are being very SELF- ABSORBED these days. It is time for you to get a life!!!

September 17, 2007 8:37 AM

marian :
Victoria:

*You are SELF-ABSORBED. Why don't you spend some *time in a Muslim country before you declare *yourself an Islamic sage?
Posted on September 17, *2007 03:11
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

EXAMPLE TWO*************************
Anonymous:
"it is unfortunate that many westerners make conclusions of what they imagine islam to be based on incidences of behaviors of muslims instead of what the actual texts and doctirnes contend."

I "imagine" Islam is a death cult because Muslims in every corner of the earth are engaged in a violent "jihad".

Victoria "imagines" Islam is the religion of peace because she reads an English translation of the Koran.

Who has lost touch with reality?

"my own personal experiences in american mosques"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*You are SELF-ABSORBED. Why don't you spend some* *time in a Muslim country before you declare
*yourself an Islamic sage? **
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Posters have repeatedly confronted you with the reality of Islam. And you repeatedly twist away from that truth. Just because you wish Islam to be a religion of peace does not make it so.. Read the news. Muslims create violence and discord day after day.. Your interpretations of the Koran are false. Islam is a death cult and its aim is hatred and violence.

Victoria, you consistently turn your head and walk away from the ugly truths of Islam. You flee reality, but will return again and again to spin your peaceful Muslim myth. Give it up."

But please don't stop posting. Your inability to address Islamic violence is a lesson to every reader here.

September 17, 2007 12:01 PM |

EXAMPLE THREE**********************
~~~~~~~~~~~
marian :
Victoria:

Has Allah given you supernatural insight and control over posters and what happens on this forum?

Your posts point to the wisdom of others who have ceased to post during Ramadan.

You're becoming SELF CONSUMED..

September 18, 2007 6:43 AM

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Anonymous :
"ALLAH is the TOLERANT" and "So you should NOT BE EXTREMISTS"

Ok People. Victoria has given us the word on Muslims. No need to watch the media reports of Muslim terrorism and the ensuing violence.

Gee, Victoria, I'm so glad you cleared that up. Maybe next you will post on World Hunger or the AIDS Pandemic?

September 18, 2007 6:58 AM
````````````````````````````````````

so you see marian, im kind of tenacious, also i resource and cross check everything.

you can see how this helps me in my persoanl study of islam.

annoying, aint it?

ps- the cowardice of anonymous posting is one of my pet peeves

now this is a forgotten thread here- just us chickens-
but since you demanded proof- well- here it is in black and white
doesnt take a rocket scientist

For the love of Alla-ah.

Victoria is now guessing who the anon posters are. This is a new low in frivolous posts.

Sure I'm the anon posters (I do occasionally agree with them). And Victoria is Abdul Amin Musa.

I like that verse, Victoria; it echoes a much older saying popular in martial arts circles:

"He who conquers men has force, he who conquers himself is truly strong." -Lao Tzu

Regards

A (striving to be self conquering) Hermit

right back at you hermit- i am also quite proud of my humility!

heres this mornings fave-
Volume 8, Book 73, Number 135:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "The strong is not the one who overcomes the people by his strength, but the strong is the one who controls himself while in anger."

peace

Actually, Marian, I think Victoria is profoundly insightful...she got all that stuff about me just right. Could have been a little more forceful about the humility though, Victoria; having been raised a Mennonite I'm especially proud of my humility...;-)

Seriously, thanks for the kind words.

Regards

A Hermit

i guess its fair to assume you are anonymous, marian.

i guess we know who the anonymous poster is now- but it doesnt take supernatural powers to figure out.

well, im not going anywhere marian

Victoria:

Has Allah given you supernatural insight and control over posters and what happens on this forum?

Your posts point to the wisdom of others who have ceased to post during Ramadan.

You're becoming self consumed..

HERMIT fully controls and directs his own comments-
hes passionate and intelligent- and since anonymous couldnt manage an intelligent repost-
(s)he tries to save face by pretending (s)he's some puppetmaster-

hermits just too gracious and mild to blow your flimsy cover

"It is so-o easy to pull your chain.."

Glad you're enjoying yourself; just so you know that I'm probably laughing as much at your childish ignorance as you are at my pomposity...;-)

Regards

A Hermit

New Osama Bin Laden video is available. SCARY!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUiNiB2yVCQ&eurl=

The question is: On the anniversary of 9/11, what message would you like to send religious extremists?

The message is, to the religious extremists in the world's one and only terrorist nation, US_Israel:

Stop your Holy War on Islam.

Here is an excellent post from MASS which I think captures our dilemma perfectly. Serious criminal mistakes were made last century by the UN, Great Britain and the USA: e.g. the Balfour Declaration of 1917 accelerating the illegal and immoral emigration and Zionist infestation of Palestine, and the UN partition of Palestine in 1947 leading to the establishment of the current illegitimate ‘State of Israel’. The question of this century is what are we going to do about it? The UN obviously needs to be restructured to negate the terrorist state of US_Israel’s ability to veto any attempt at a just solution to this crisis.

MASS:

‘The whole world will never see peace as long as the crime of the 20th century is not handled adequately. The legitimate state of Palestine was removed from the world map to be replaced by the illegitimate state of Israel with new immigrants from all over the world. Palestinians, being Moslems or Christians, were kicked out into refugee camps to be replaced by Jews from Europe, Russia, Ethiopia, Poland etc.

Repercussions of this heinous crime are behind all turmoil and bloodshed in the Middle East including Iraq, Lebanon, Palestinian occupied territories, Syria, Iran etc.

The unlimited support of US to Israel has been encouraging the latter to reject all UN resolutions on the Palestinian Issue including Resolution 194 which calls for the return of all Palestinian refugees home. It is time for the US admin to wake up to the real cause of all problems in the area and to resolve this chronic issue in a fair way to all concerned parties immediately. The only feasible solution to this chronic problem is to set up one secular state for all Israelis and Palestinians regardless of their religion to live in peace on all the land of historical Palestine.’

I would only add that we have proven the hard way that Israelis and Palestinians cannot live together. We must evacuate the 5 million illegitimate Jews from Palestine and relocate them to Texas.

A Hermit:

It is so-o easy to pull your chain..

"What's Up With This?"

What's up is called democracy, anonymous; I'm not surprised that a reactionary coward like you doesn't recognize it.

What's the matter? You have a problem with Arabs running for public office? Should there be limits to public service based on race?

You don't agree with their opinions on the Middle East? Should people who disagree with you be barred from running for office or advocating for their opinions?

Which is it, Anonymous Coward; do you want racial segregation or the abridgement of free speech?

And do you ever have any original thoughts, or are you just going to keep cutting and pasting articles that frighten you for some inexplicable reason? `cause I do actually read the newspapers, anonymous, I don't need you to post them here for me.

Regards

A Hermit

P.S. If William Krar's cyanide bomb had been set off in an arena or a theatre it could easily have killed hundreds, if not thousands, of innocent people. What neither he or the Islamist terrorists can do is overturn western democracy. Unless we all do like you have and give in to the fear.

Have I mentioned that I refuse to live in fear? You should try it...

A Hermit:

What's Up With This?

The LIBERAL PARTY of CANADA: A pattern of denial to pro-Palestinian candidates?

The problem here is much bigger than simply the nomination of one person, the implication goes far beyond the rejection of Mr. Corrigan's, Dr. Ayad's and Grace Batchoun's nominations. Many loyal Liberal supporters in the Canadian Arab/Muslim communities are bound to draw the only logical conclusion from this sad episode; that pro Palestinian candidates are not welcome and need not apply."

There are several Arabs running for Liberal nominations in the Ottawa region which also has a large Arab community. It will remains to be seen how the Liberal Party treats these individuals and if the Liberal Party is open to Arabs and Muslims and their concerns over human rights and social justice or if it will continue to pursue an anti-democratic and discriminatory approach when it comes to Arab and Muslim candidates and candidates who are sympathetic the plight of the Palestinians.

If the Liberal Party is not supportive of the legitimate concerns of the Arab and Muslim community in Canada and human rights and international law, then there is no reason for the growing Arab and Muslim community to vote Liberal and every reason for them not to vote Liberal.

http://www.agoracosmopolitan.com/home/Frontpage/2007/09/16/01796.html

In the meantime, can you explain to me why you and so many others wet your pants whenever a Muslim is accused of something like this, but nobody seems too worried about homegrown Christian White Supremacists like Wiliam Krar, for example

Sure!

Had he and his cohorts caused the death of 3000 innocents, I'd pay plenty of attention.

Violence by people of any united ideology tends to direct one's attention to the decrees of their's that incite the masses to hate.

Also, most Christians are not tolerant of hate preached from the pulpit. They know there is nothing spiritual in such doctrines.

Anonymous; Do you know how to read? Did you see my comments about the differences between someone who is mentally unstable and someone who is politically motivates?

In the meantime, can you explain to me why you and so many others wet your pants whenever a Muslim is accused of something like this, but nobody seems too worried about homegrown Christian White Supremacists like Wiliam Krar, for example. Here's a guy caught with cyanide bombs, grenades, pipe bombs, a list of targets and links to people who are still at large and the story doesn't get anything like the kind of attention that one incompetent nut gets if he happens to be a Muslim. There's a double standard at work here, based on race and religion.

And yes, the extremists can be dangerous. I haven't said they shouldn't be dealt with. But there's as much danger in over-reacting as there is is ignoring the problem. That over-reaction is exactly what the terrorists are counting on, and when you fall for it you are playing their game.

I refuse to play their game. I refuse to live in fear and I refuse to be manipulated like that.

Regards

A Hermit

A Hermit:

Better NOT read this:

"The process of settlement [of Islam in the United States] is a "Civilization-Jihadist" process with all the word means. The Ikhwan must understand that all their work in America is a kind of grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and "sabotaging" their miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God's religion is made victorious over all religions. Without this level of understanding, we are not up to this challenge and have not prepared ourselves for Jihad yet. It is a Muslim's destiny to perform Jihad and work wherever he is and wherever he lands until the final hour comes, and there is no escape from that destiny except for those who choose to slack.

The entire 18-page platform outlines a plan for the long haul. It prescribes the Muslim Brotherhood's comprehensive plan to set down roots in civil society. It begins by both founding and taking control of American Muslim organizations, for the sake of unifying and educating the U.S. Muslim community – this to prepare it for the establishment of a global Islamic state governed by sharia.

It sounds like a conspiracy theory out of a bad Hollywood movie – but it's real. Husain Haqqani, head of Boston University's Center for International Relations and a former Islamic radical, confirms that the Brotherhood "has run most significant Muslim organizations in the U.S." as part of the plan outlined in the strategy paper.

The HLF trial is exposing for the first time how the international Muslim Brotherhood – whose Palestinian division is Hamas – operates as a self-conscious revolutionary vanguard in the United States. The court documents indicate that many leading Muslim-American organizations – including the Council on American-Islamic Relations, the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA) and the Muslim American Society – are an integral part of the Brotherhood's efforts to wage jihad against America by nonviolent means.

The Muslim Brotherhood is an affiliation of at least 70 Islamist organizations around the world, all tracing their heritage to the original cell, founded in Egypt in 1928. Its credo: "Allah is our objective. The Prophet is our leader. Quran is our law. Jihad is our way. Dying in the way of Allah is our highest hope." Sayyid Qutb, hanged by the Egyptian government in 1966 as a revolutionary, remains its ideological godfather. His best-known work, Milestones, calls for Muslims to wage violent holy war until Islamic law governs the entire world.

According to a 2004 Chicago Tribune investigation, establishing the Brotherhood in the United States has been a 40-year project that has worked mostly underground – even beneath the notice of many Muslims. Richard Clarke, the former top U.S. national security official, told the Senate in 2003 that the Muslim Brotherhood is the common thread linking terrorist fundraising schemes in the United States – which likely explains why so many mainstream American Muslim organizations were named by the feds as "unindicted co-conspirators" in the HLF trial.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/opinion/columnists/rdreher/stories/DN-dreher_09edi.ART.State.Edition1.4235f88.html

im not trying to be funny mr perkel, but death is pretty final and real.
and id venture that it can be constured as pretty destructive(certainly from the standpoint of the dying, which if you're being realistic, encompasses us all).

so even realism would have as its final result, destruction.

All theistic religions are extreme in that they envision a future of destruction. I have accepted Realism as my path. Reality changed my life. It can Change yours too.

A message from the Church of Reality
"If it's real, we believe in it!"

All theistic religions are extreme in that they envision a future of destruction. I have accepted Realism as my path. Reality changed my life. It can Change yours too.

A message from the Church of Reality
"If it's real, we believe in it!"

All theistic religions are extreme in that they envision a future of destruction. I have accepted Realism as my path. Reality changed my life. It can Change yours too.

A mesage from the Church of reality
"if it real, we believe in it!"

"But this of course makes us ask what will become of the individual."

Daniel, many European countries and Australia are working quickly and quietly to change immigration laws.

Individuals make communities make societal norms make a country. The trend seems to be: individual citizens should have a say over who becomes their neighbor.

I think that more important than the causes and circumstances surrounding the start of WWI, are the events that occurred near the end.

For example the Sykes-Picot agreement of 1916 (from Wikipedia): The Sykes-Picot Agreement of 1916 was a secret understanding between the governments of Britain and France, with the assent of Russia, defining their respective spheres of influence and control in west Asia after the expected downfall of the Ottoman Empire during World War I. The boundaries of this agreement still remain in much of the common border between Syria and Iraq.

Then came Mistake of the Century No. 1, the Balfour Declaration (from Wikipedia): The Balfour Declaration of 1917 (dated November 2, 1917) was a classified formal statement of policy by the British government on the partitioning of the Ottoman Empire in the aftermath of the World War I.

The letter stated the position, agreed at a British Cabinet meeting on October 31, 1917, that the British government supported Zionist plans for a Jewish "national home" in Palestine, with the condition that nothing should be done which might prejudice the rights of existing communities there.

This set us up for Mistake of the Century No. 2, the UN partition of Palestine in 1947 following WWII.

The question of the century now is, how do we correct these two horrendous mistakes?

what a concise and excellent overview daniel