Readers’ Responses to Our Question (317)

"My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord, nor detest His correction. For whom the Lord loves He corrects, just as a father the son in whom he delights" (Proverbs 3:11-12; Hebrews 12:5-6).

I believe people have misunderstood and mischaracterized Mother Teresa'a letters.

Her relationship with God was exponentially deeper than the average person's. Like a prophet, her highs were much higher and her valleys much deeper.

Suffering and the resultant doubt is all part of the tests that those who want to be more like Christ ask for (see Psalms 26:2). Indeed, scripture says, "And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire and like a launderers soap" (Malachi 3:2).

According to the New Testament, even Jesus learned obedience through suffering (see Hebrews 5:8).

All possible kind of questions asked by non Muslims about Islam answered on below web sites:

ALL MISCONCEPTIONS AND FALSE MEANINGS ARE ANSWERED:

1-www.irf.net/irf/faqonislam/index.htm (on this site you will get all answers about Islam, CHRISTIANITY, JESUS, JUDAISM , ETHEISIM, HINDUISM and all other religions).
2-www.islamalways.com/
3-www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/
4-www.jamaat.net/deedat.htm
5-www.islamtomorrow.com/yusuf.asp
6-www.justaskislam.com/index.php
7-www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/Q_LP/ (The Lawful and Prohibited in Islam)

hiiiiiiiiiiiiii

rgpejafvk tqwroa snok sairtqu cwhloxnda omrxbhdk gmrjicfy

An aside:

The APEC (Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation) summit is drawing to a close. I'm happy to report as a Sydneysider that the leaders of all twenty one countries were kept safe. (Sydney was converted to a fortress as a precautionary measure! However, the comedy team of the Australian Broadcasting Corporation caused a terrible embarrassment for the security forces by managing to get "Osama bin Laden" in full attire, into the security zone! When "Osama bin Laden" was caught, he assured the security force and the public that he didn't mean to harm anyone. Apparently the security force believed him, for they only confiscated his beard and not his head.)

St Peter granted Sydney better weather for the sake of the world leaders today, probably because all of them signed the "Sydney Declaration" aspirational goals (whatever that means)to cut green-house gas emissions.

I did NOT participate in the protest march. I am happy about being a citizen of the host country, and rest content that the leaders had an opportunity to get to know each other better, providing a platform to working together for the betterment of all nations concerned. My views on the Iraq war and climate change I have already shared on these threads. Every democracy needs protestors of course and the Australian idealists need to get out there and present their case, which they did in Sydney in a peaceful manner yesterday.

Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia

Hermit

I do not think for a single moment I implied that atheists do not have the right to choose their form of doubt. Believers make different choices in the face of doubt, that is all. They would not make the choice if deep down they did not have an assurance and faith that transcends the comparatively superficial doubt. As believers we are expected to go beyond and deeper than "feel good and high at all times" faith in God. Atheism just doesn't seem like a more rational answer to doubt.

Soja

Concerned the Christian now Liberated,

A portrayal of Jesus Christ from Scripture is not a bad idea (especially if the Pope explains the reasons for his choice of the sources used and his interpretation of them), don't you think? At least it is apt to be closer to the truth than mere theories that were invented about Him nineteen and a half centuries later.

Soja

Mary Cunningham:

Mary

It is true that Mother Theresa felt called to leave the order in which she started her work as a nun - the Loretto School is a "public" school (the term in India for a very expensive private school which caters not necessarily to the higher castes but to the very rich, as SOME of the best Catholic institutions offering excellence in education do). The point I was trying to make was that she left the comparative comfort of an active order to start one of her own, which the world knows catered to the poorest of the poor, offering palliative care to the destitute and dying, without making any attempt to convert them to Christianity. (Aside to Victoria: No one claimed that Mother Theresa was Indian in origin, just as the other Nobel Peace Prize winner, Dalai Lama is not an Indian.) Even her work in the Loretto school would have involved dealing with the outside world, unlike the likes of Carmelites like St John of the Cross and St Theresa of Avila.

Mother Theresa didn't need our prayers, for she had her regular praying times and the working day did not begin without attending Mass. It is simply that she could not devote as much time to prayer as St John of the Cross and others like him could do. If she had been depressed she would not have been able to get out of bed and carry on such a punishing work routine day after day, month after month, year after year and with such clarity of vision about her work.

The few ex-nuns I have encountered (who started life as lay persons I mean) seem to be a special breed, their spirituality oftentimes shallower and more worldly than an average lay believer. It has always puzzled me, but I guess that is why they are EX-nuns! Thank God, Mother Theresa was a different kind of ex-nun,merely changed the order in which she served, a nun who gave up comparative luxury to cater to the poorest.

Mother Theresa's fruit speaks for itself, so none of us Catholics ought to feel the need to defend the depth of her faith, simply because she was candid in expressing her doubts and spiritual anguish.

Soja

As I feared, some of you are taking the analogy I cited (it's not originally mine) too seriously.
Anne O., Jonny's quotation was from me. The analogy was not meant to reflect on the condition of either angels or animals, but only to highlight what it means to be human. Freudians I guess would see all three levels I described within humans. James Branch Cabell pictured G-d as a wayward child who created us for His amusement and then forgot about us. Also not "true," but also an interesting theory.
Sometimes our "dark nights" can be illuminated by an apt analogy that helps us to sleep at night. IMHO a lot of religious mythology serves just that purpose. I personally see a lot of sense in the concept of psychomachia, that dualistic battle between vices and virtues that goes on inside us. Teresa would have been the first to acknowledge that Doubt is not defeated by Reason, but I find it comforting to know that I am not the first or best believer to have trouble accessing pure Faith or drafting it into battle.

And now on to the next question...

Angels, devils, satans???? Give us a break!!!

These are simply "pretty/ugly wingie talking flying fictional thingies" with the ugly ones in contemporary terms considered "demons of the demented" and the pretty ones considered "tinker bells" or fairies.

Some history:

Joe Smith had his Moroni.

Mohammed had his Gabriel (this "tinker bell" got around).

Jesus and his family/biographers had Michael, Gabriel, and Satan.

The Abraham-Moses myths had their Angel of Death and other "no-namers" to do their dirty work or other assorted duties.

Contemporary biblical and religious scholars have relegated these "pretty wingie thingies" to the myth pile. We should do the same to include deleting all references to them in our religious operating manuals. Doing this will eliminate the prophet/profit/prophecy status of these founders and put them where they belong as simple humans just like the rest of us.

Some added references to "tinker bells".

"Latter-day Saints also believe that Michael the Archangel was Adam (the first man) when he was mortal, and Gabriel lived on the earth as Noah."

Apparently hallucinations did not stop with Joe Smith.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07049c.htm
"This belief in guardian angels can be traced throughout all antiquity; pagans, like Menander and Plutarch (cf. Euseb., "Praep. Evang.", xii), and Neo-Platonists, like Plotinus, held it. It was also the belief of the Babylonians and Assyrians, as their monuments testify, for a figure of a guardian angel now in the British Museum once decorated an Assyrian palace, and might well serve for a modern representation; while Nabopolassar, father of Nebuchadnezzar the Great, says: "He (Marduk) sent a tutelary deity (cherub) of grace to go at my side; in everything that I did, he made my work to succeed."

Catholic monks and Dark Age theologians also did their share of hallucinating:

"TUBUAS-A member of the group of angels who were removed from the ranks of officially recognized celestial hierarchy in 745 by a council in Rome under Pope Zachary. He was joined by Uriel, Adimus, Sabaoth, Simiel, and Raguel."

And tinker bells go way, way back:

"In Zoroastrianism there are different angel like creatures. For example each person has a guardian angel caled Fravashi. They patronize human being and other creatures and also manifest god’s energy. Also, the Amesha Spentas have often been regarded as angels, but they don't convey messages, but are rather emanations of Ahura Mazda ("Wise Lord", God); they appear in an abstract fashion in the religious thought of Zarathustra and then later (during the Achaemenid period of Zoroastrianism) became personalized, associated with an aspect of the divine creation (fire, plants, water...)."

"The beginnings of the biblical belief in angels must be sought in very early folklore. The gods of the Hittites and Canaanites had their supernatural messengers, and parallels to the Old Testament stories of angels are found in Near Eastern literature. "

"The 'Magic Papyri' contain many spells to secure just such help and protection of angels. From magic traditions arose the concept of the guardian angel. "

For added information see the review at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angel

Jonny --

You ask what the purpose of free will is. According to Christian theology it is to contribute to the good of Creation by making oneself and the world even more beautifula and good than it is.

Christians don't believe that angels do have free will. The reason Satan is not in Heaven is that he chose not to be. All angels can choose, and they too can contribute to the good of creation.

Hi, Jonny,

Where did you get that quotation? None of it is Abrahamic theology. God, angels and man all have free will. It allows us to determine our own lives to some extent and to enrich the lives of others. Yes, it makes us reponsible which is not always pleasant, but it also give us the opportunit to contribute to the good of this world and the next, of ourselves and others, to love. No will, no love. It's hardly a useless ability.

Hi, Jonny,

Where did you get that quotation? None of it is Abrahamic theology. God, angels and man all have free will. It allows us to determine our own lives to some extent and to enrich the lives of others. Yes, it makes us reponsible which is not always pleasant, but it also give us the opportunit to contribute to the good of this world and the next, of ourselves and others, to love. No will, no love. It's hardly a useless ability.

Hi, Jonny,

Where did you get that quotation? None of it is Abrahamic theology. God, angels and man all have free will. It allows us to determine our own lives to some extent and to enrich the lives of others. Yes, it makes us reponsible which is not always pleasant, but it also give us the opportunit to contribute to the good of this world and the next, of ourselves and others, to love. No will, no love. It's hardly a useless ability.

"There are three levels of conscious beings, which are angels, humans and animals. Animals have no sense of good or evil so they don't have to decide between the two. Angels always know what is right so they, too, are not required to exercise free will. Only humans are aware of right and wrong and not always sure which they are choosing.
If we had the knowledge of the angels or the pure instinct of the animals we would not be human."
_____

Sorry -- I saw this 'n was flummoxed. I dunno where to begin. I guess I'll start with angels -- since they're supernatural, and baffling, to boot. "Not required to exercise free will."

So what is their purpose? God is omnipotent, so he doesn't need their help. What are they, a sideshow? Stooges? WHAT?

Poor suckers. No possible reason to exist, yet they do anyway. Kinda like ANIMALS, huh?

good one little ole-
and mr dickson- thank you

LDS Mark
I think what you may be trying to get across is simpler than our needing to prove ourselves to G-d or anyone else. Although (as far as I know) not officially approved by the Catholic or any other church, years ago someone gave me this explanation of free will:
There are three levels of conscious beings, which are angels, humans and animals. Animals have no sense of good or evil so they don't have to decide between the two. Angels always know what is right so they, too, are not required to exercise free will. Only humans are aware of right and wrong and not always sure which they are choosing.
If we had the knowledge of the angels or the pure instinct of the animals we would not be human.
(BTW it's just an analogy, folks. Don't write back telling me about the virtuous hearts of the animals or the evil acts of G-d's brightest angel.)

The problem with St. John of the Cross and St. Teresa of Avila is that they suffered from the three B's i.e. they were Bred, Born and Brainwashed in embellished Catholicism. Had they lived today, contemporary realism and the history of what really happened two thousand years ago in Roman-controlled Palestine would have made them non-mystical NT exegetes.

The problem with St. John of the Cross and St. Teresa of Avila is that they suffered from the three B's i.e. they were Bred, Born and Brainwashed in embellished Catholicism. Had they lived today, contemporary realism and the history of what really happened two thousand years ago in Roman-controlled Palestine would have made them non-mystical NT exegetes.

I sympathize with Mother Teresa's doubts in a personal way. In my younger days (many days ago, indeed,) I, too, was confronted with nothingness in answer to my beliefs. The difference between us is that I shed those beliefs. The awful pain disappeared. So, indeed, did the entirety of the "supernatural." I was liberated.

REALITY is that which, if you stop believing in it, does NOT go away. Stop believing in ooga-booga and it goes away -- quickly and permanently. What a relief.

I read with great sadness the article published in the September 10th edition of Newsweek entitled, "The Dogmatic Doubter." I am not angry with Mr. Hitchins nor with Newsweek for publishing this article. I feel extreme sadness for both because they simply "don't get it."

In "Dark Night of the Soul," St. John of the Cross states very clearly, "What the soul draws also from the aridity and emptiness of the night of desire is spiritual humility. Through humility, acquired along with self-knowledge, the soul is purified of the imperfections of spiritual pride into which she stumbled during her time of prosperity. Aware only of her own aridity and misery,it never occurs to her that she is now making better progress than others, which is what she used to erroneously believe...Her own wretchedness is so present in her sight that there is no room to scrutinize others."

St. John of the Cross goes on to say, "'I fell mute, humbled,' says David. 'I kept silence in blessing and my sorrow was renewed.' It seemed to him that all that was good in his soul had been entirely depleted. Not only could he find no speech to express it, but the grief he suffered about his own insignificance left him mute concerning his neighbor."

Does any of this sound familiar to anyone? It's nearly word for word in the Newsweek article concerning Mother Teresa.

May the Lord Jesus Christ come into your life in a very powerful and wonderful way, Christopher, and heal your broken heart.

I read with great sadness the article published in the September 10th edition of Newsweek entitled, "The Dogmatic Doubter." I am not angry with Mr. Hitchins nor with Newsweek for publishing this article. I feel extreme sadness for both because they simply "don't get it."

In "Dark Night of the Soul," St. John of the Cross states very clearly, "What the soul draws also from the aridity and emptiness of the night of desire is spiritual humility. Through humility, acquired along with self-knowledge, the soul is purified of the imperfections of spiritual pride into which she stumbled during her time of prosperity. Aware only of her own aridity and misery,it never occurs to her that she is now making better progress than others, which is what she used to erroneously believe...Her own wretchedness is so present in her sight that there is no room to scrutinize others."

St. John of the Cross goes on to say, "'I fell mute, humbled,' says David. 'I kept silence in blessing and my sorrow was renewed.' It seemed to him that all that was good in his soul had been entirely depleted. Not only could he find no speech to express it, but the grief he suffered about his own insignificance left him mute concerning his neighbor."

Does any of this sound familiar to anyone? It's nearly word for word in the Newsweek article concerning Mother Teresa.

May the Lord Jesus Christ come into your life in a very powerful and wonderful way, Christopher, and heal your broken heart.

i just wanted to clear something up-
mother teresa was not an indian person.
she came from macedonia and was of albanian descent- she went to the sisters of loretto in ireland, and then onto india, where she started her mission at the age of 38.

just thought i'd point that out, as i've seen some references to her indianness.

off topic and sorry for this-
thi is for hermit as its a hoot and i thought he'd enjoy it-
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=larry+craig+bill+maher+about++clinton&search=Search

i saw it on hardball- totally off topic-

LDS Mark

I don't think your God needs to intervene with each and every difficulty that arises in peoples lives. To me, though, there is no reason or lesson to be learned in true human physical suffering.

I was 16 when I had to begin to watch my mothers suffering with terminal cancer. It was in the days there was very little medical knowledge or understanding of cancer. 2 years this women suffered needless horrific pain. I still am confused about the lesson I was suppose to learn from that. The only thing I have come away with is how much I believe and support the concept of death with dignity re: Dr Kevorkian.

There is no lesson, reason or excuse for human suffering of that magnitude or larger.

You know, some of you talk about how god allows the suffering in Calcutta, and how can he do that?
If god were to step in and save us from every human failing, there would be no point for us to come to this world.
There would be no way for us to prove ourselves.
I heard a statement on a religious radio show when I was out hunting last fall. The commentator said, “God is not the type of parent that child services was started for.”
Can you imagine the proverbial “Dreaded mother in-law” who won’t stay out of her children’s lives after they have moved away and started their own family’s?
I can imagine how you would complain if god stepped into your life every time a difficulty appeared.

Mark

St. John of the Cross and St. Theresa of Avila as well as many other religious individuals have gone through what mystics call the "dark night of the soul." However, it should be realized that love, faith and hope are virtues, that is, they are habits of conduct not feelings. Thus it is possible to love without the "nice" feelings we call love but that probably are better called infatuation or have a strong faith even if one strongly doubts or hope without hope. I mean, these virtues exist as long as one is committed to having and practicing them. They are the result of the will willing, not of the heart feeling.

St. John of the Cross and St. Theresa of Avila as well as many other individuals have gone through what mystics call the "dark night of the soul." However, it should be realized that love, faith and hope are virtues, that is, they are habits of conduct not feelings. Thus it is possible to love without the feelings we call love but that probably are better called infatuation or have a strong faith even if one strongly doubts or hope without hope. I mean, these virtues exist as long as one is committed to have them. They are the result of the will willing, not of the heart feeling.

St. John of the Cross and St. Theresa of Avila as well as many other individuals have gone through what mystics call the "dark night of the soul." However, it should be realized that love, faith and hope are virtues, that is, they are habits of conduct not feelings. Thus it is possible to love without the feelings we call love but that probably are better called infatuation or have a strong faith even if one strongly doubts or hope without hope. I mean, these virtues exist as long as one is commited to have them. They are the result of the will, not of the heart.

Joaquinrose and Mary C,

I assume that both of you believe in "pwtfft"s so we have some problems at the start.

But let us progress here and say "It is all about history" and what really happened 2000 years ago in the Roman slave state of Palestine.

Many of the books listed at http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html will help you heal as you escape the brainwashing that most of us were bred and born into. The authors of these books have thoroughly evaluated the gospels, epistles and associated documents written in the mid first century to early third century CE and have done an excellent job in separating truth (e.g. the crucifixion) from fiction (e.g. the resurrection) and embellishment ( e.g. the Last Supper).

Many of these documents are on-line. See http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/ for your own perusal.

An additional note for your perusal:

Actually, there are a number of people directly responsible for "Man-Godity" aka Christianity. One of the most overlooked is of Pontius Pilate and his free will. He could just as easily sent Jesus to the salt mines and then there would have been no sacrifice for your sins. Hmmmm, a religion based on the whims of a Roman procurator??? Maybe we should rethink the importance of the crucifixion and concentrate on the Beatitudes?????

Joaquinrose and Mary C,

I assume that both of you believe in "pwtfft"s so we have some problems at the start.

But let us progress here and say "It is all about history" and what really happened 2000 years ago in the Roman slave state of Palestine.

Many of the books listed at http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html will help you heal as you escape the brainwashing that most of us were bred and born into. The authors of these books have thoroughly evaluated the gospels, epistles and associated documents written in the mid first century to early third century CE and have done an excellent job in separating truth (e.g. the crucifixion) from fiction (e.g. the resurrection) and embellishment ( e.g. the Last Supper).

Many of these documents are on-line. See http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/ for your own perusal.

An additional note for your perusal:

Actually, there are a number of people directly responsible for "Man-Godity" aka Christianity. One of the most overlooked is of Pontius Pilate and his free will. He could just as easily sent Jesus to the salt mines and then there would have been no sacrifice for your sins. Hmmmm, a religion based on the whims of a Roman procurator??? Maybe we should rethink the importance of the crucifixion and concentrate on the Beatitudes?????

Joaquinrose and Mary C,

I assume that both of you believe in "pwtfft"s so we have some problems at the start.

But let us progress here and say "It is all about history" and what really happened 2000 years ago in the Roman slave state of Palestine.

Many of the books listed at http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html will help you heal as you escape the brainwashing that most of us were bred and born into. The authors of these books have thoroughly evaluated the gospels, epistles and associated documents written in the mid first century to early third century CE and have done an excellent job in separating truth (e.g. the crucifixion) from fiction (e.g. the resurrection) and embellishment ( e.g. the Last Supper).

Many of these documents are on-line. See http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/ for your own perusal.

An additional note for your perusal:

Actually, there are a number of people directly responsible for "Man-Godity" aka Christianity. One of the most overlooked is of Pontius Pilate and his free will. He could just as easily sent Jesus to the salt mines and then there would have been no sacrifice for your sins. Hmmmm, a religion based on the whims of a Roman procurator??? Maybe we should rethink the importance of the crucifixion and concentrate on the Beatitudes?????

Soja,

B16's "new" book is simply the NT rehashed once again. For a better buy, see Father Raymond Brown's An Introduction to the New Testament, 1997 (878 pages). The book is "Catholic" approved (imprimatur and Nihil obstat) and more than likely was used by B16 to prep his book (416 pages). Father Brown also reviews the historical Jesus movement in more than two pages.

Another "view from a recent review":
"For this reason, Crossan's new book _God and Empire: Jesus Against Rome, Then and Now_ (2007) represents far more forward-oriented thinking about Christian tradition than does Ratzinger's well-publicized new book."

...and speaking of nuns...

http://www.journalnow.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=WSJ%2FMGArticle%2FWSJ_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1173352587402&path=!living&s=1037645509005

“The National Coalition of American Nuns is impelled by conscience to call you to act promptly to impeach President George W. Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney for ... high crimes and misdemeanors,”

LDS Mark:

You know I never could buy into the "suffering is necessary/without evil there would be no good" argument. I don't cause my children to suffer in order to teach them. The suffering of the untouchables in Calcutta is the kind of "learning experience" abusive parents appeal to after searing their kid's hand on the stove so he won't be tempted to touch it in the future. Would we send our children out to play in traffic so that they'll learn to watch for cars? There are better ways to teach a child that lesson...

And the "mother-in-law" analogy really doesn't apply, does it? I don't recall making a conscious decision to come to this life; if I was put here by some God than its God who is responsible for the environment in which I find myself.

More importantly, if we are to accept that God is good, and that He has always been so than that undercuts the whole idea that good can only exist as a counterbalance to evil and suffering. If heaven is supposed to be a place where there is no suffering, why not Earth? Will we all be mindless robots, or hen-pecked sons-in-law in heaven?

I consider the alleviation of unnecessary suffering to be the highest moral good; why would God not be as moral as me?

The idea that people are born into poverty, sickness and hunger because they have to "prove themselves" is, frankly, offensive. It suggests that they deserve it. Much as I admire much of what Mother Theresa did, and her dedication to her work it's precisely this same attitude toward suffering as a moral necessity which brings me to view her as a flawed saint, if a saint at all.

Regards

A Hermit

You know, some of you talk about how god allows the suffering in Calcutta, and how can he do that?
If god were to step in and save us from every human failing, there would be no point for us to come to this world.
There would be no way for us to prove ourselves.

I heard a statement on a religious radio show when I was out hunting last fall. The commentator said, “God is not the type of parent that child services was started for.”

Can you imagine the proverbial “Dreaded mother in-law” who won’t stay out of her children’s lives after they have moved away and started their own family’s?
I can imagine how you would complain if god stepped into your life every time a difficulty appeared.

Mark

You know, some of you talk about how god allows the suffering in Calcutta, and how can he do that?
If god were to step in and save us from every human failing, there would be no point for us to come to this world.
There would be no way for us to prove ourselves.

I heard a statement on a religious radio show when I was out hunting last fall. The commentator said, “God is not the type of parent that child services was started for.”

Can you imagine the proverbial “Dreaded mother in-law” who won’t stay out of her children’s lives after they have moved away and started their own family’s?
I can imagine how you would complain if god stepped into your life every time a difficulty appeared.

Mark

You know, some of you talk about how god allows the suffering in Calcutta, and how can he do that?
If god were to step in and save us from every human failing, there would be no point for us to come to this world.
There would be no way for us to prove ourselves.

I heard a statement on a religious radio show when I was out hunting last fall. The commentator said, “God is not the type of parent that child services was started for.”

Can you imagine the proverbial “Dreaded mother in-law” who won’t stay out of her children’s lives after they have moved away and started their own family’s?
I can imagine how you would complain if god stepped into your life every time a difficulty appeared.

Mark

You know, some of you talk about how god allows the suffering in Calcutta, and how can he do that?
If god were to step in and save us from every human failing, there would be no point for us to come to this world.
There would be no way for us to prove ourselves.

I heard a statement on a religious radio show when I was out hunting last fall. The commentator said, “God is not the type of parent that child services was started for.”

Can you imagine the proverbial “Dreaded mother in-law” who won’t stay out of her children’s lives after they have moved away and started their own family’s?
I can imagine how you would complain if god stepped into your life every time a difficulty appeared.

Mark

You know, some of you talk about how god allows the suffering in Calcutta, and how can he do that?
If god were to step in and save us from every human failing, there would be no point for us to come to this world.
There would be no way for us to prove ourselves.

I heard a statement on a religious radio show when I was out hunting last fall. The commentator said, “God is not the type of parent that child services was started for.”

Can you imagine the proverbial “Dreaded mother in-law” who won’t stay out of her children’s lives after they have moved away and started their own family’s?
I can imagine how you would complain if god stepped into your life every time a difficulty appeared.

Mark

Concerned Now the Christians Liberated:
Anything written in Wikipedia as we all know can be altered and changed according to whatever someone believes it should be so that source is about as trustworthy as the fox in a chicken coop. Poor baby, there is nothing left to believe in is there? It's all lies, isn't it? How can you tell someone who believes in something that it is all delusions? Because of our self-thinking intellect? I don't think so...Read the first or second entry on this blog where he quotes... "When learned men begin to use their reasoning, then I generally discover that they haven't got any." That pretty much sums up most of this blog. Left on your own many of you have what the scriptures call, "vain imaginations."
You just don't get it do you? You'll never understand anything about the Bible or be able to quote it for or against anything without FAITH!! BELIEFS!! Mother Theresa has the same type of FAITH that God honored, that of doubt and sometimes anguish but he promises he will see us through all of it. That means there is a beginning of the doubt and an end to it. Obviously she continued despite her "lack" of faith because God strengthened her. God never chasties us for "lapses" of faith only deliberate willfullness disobedience to his WORD. The Bible says all believers (translated Saints) have to take up this cross daily. Without a prayer life and staying in His Word Sister Theresa would have quit or died much earlier. I commend her highly for that but you see accolades here never amount to much but I bet the day she entered HIS presence he said, "Well done good and faithful servant, enter the Kingdom of Heaven." Why are people so afraid to suffer or object to the idea of suffering? I'll tell you why and that is because we are spoiled, cowards in this country, pampered from birth about our rights. You have NO rights that God didn't give to you first so you owe allegiance to HIM and your country for which America's laws that have benefited you. Stop putting each other down and start working together for this country.

Soja says: "Atheists in comparison seem so confident about everything they claim to believe or disbelieve in."

Interesting thought; just some ideas off the top of my head:

Confident is the right word here. I don't arrive at my beliefs by faith, and I would never claim absolute certainty but I am confident that they are based on firm foundations of reason, while recognizing the very real limits of human knowledge in general and especially my own. I also recognize that my conclusions, however confidently held, are always to some extent provisional and must remain open to revision and improvement, and when I am presented with contrary evidence I am open to revising my opinions.

I tried faith for a long time; for me a confident, if provisional, atheism has been a much healthier approach to life than a struggle to maintain through faith a belief in the unbelievable. I still have what you might call doubts, or more properly questions or uncertainties, but they certainly aren't as painful as the the doubts associated with my old faith. I don't expect to understand the Universe any more than I expected to understand God, but neither do I feel abandoned or cut off due to that lack of understanding. I don't expect a personal relationship with the Universe like the one I was promised by religion. Nor do I feel that a lack of understanding is due to my own inadequacy, or to sin, or to a separation from that which I am trying to understand.. It's not that atheists never have doubts or questions, but we embrace doubt and questioning; it's how we learn and not a threat to our world view at all. In fact, if you don't have some doubts I'd say you're not being rational.

I think one of the reasons doubt is such a problem for some believers is the expectation of absolutes in religion; there must be absolute goodness, a single, absolute creator with absolute knowledge and power. But in reality there are no absolutes in life. Accepting that makes doubt and questioning our useful allies instead of evils to be resisted.

Regards

A Hermit

Thank you, Victoria, for saying that something I've said has something poetic about it! I'm amazed. In my old age I've become interested in poetry and even try to write a bit. See? Miracles can happen :-)

I'm anxious to read all of the letters of Mother T. People are so very, very complex.

I'm hoping that her letters will open up the minds of the Catholic bishops (including especially the Vaticanistas) who think that to doubt is literally a mortal sin. ISTM that particular teaching has done more harm to the souls of Catholics than anything the bishops have preached since the Council of Trent. Pope Benedict himself has publicly talked about doubting, and I wish him well trying to open up the minds of his bishop-assistants to the fact that, given the sometimes terrible world we live it, truth requires us to doubt when all we see is pain around us. (I'm in New Orleans, and believe me, I see a terrible amount of pain araound me.)

But then the otherwise inexplicable beauty and kindness in the world, such as Mother Teresa', come bounding into our consciousness and we see that it is more reasonable to believe in a Heavenly Source than to think, "Oh, well, things just happen".

There is a wonderfull amoung of kindness being exhibited here in New Orleans now. The number of people who have come to gut houses and rebuild them, to clear out parks and replant them, and -- on and on. Often they take their vacation time to do it! No, the problem of the suffering of innocents is not the only fact in the world that needs accounting for.

Some facts, like Mother Teresa's ability to continue her kindness even in the face of such terrible pain and ugliness also needs accounting for. The theologians account for it by "the grace of God".

Ann O.

Thank you, Victoria, for saying that something I've said has something poetic about it! I'm amazed. In my old age I've become interested in poetry and even try to write a bit. See? Miracles can happen :-)

I'm anxious to read all of the letters of Mother T. People are so very, very complex.

I'm hoping that her letters will open up the minds of the Catholic bishops (including especially the Vaticanistas) who think that to doubt is literally a mortal sin. ISTM that particular teaching has done more harm to the souls of Catholics than anything the bishops have preached since the Council of Trent. Pope Benedict himself has publicly talked about doubting, and I wish him well trying to open up the minds of his bishop-assistants to the fact that, given the sometimes terrible world we live it, truth requires us to doubt when all we see is pain around us. (I'm in New Orleans, and believe me, I see a terrible amount of pain araound me.)

But then the otherwise inexplicable beauty and kindness in the world, such as Mother Teresa', come bounding into our consciousness and we see that it is more reasonable to believe in a Heavenly Source than to think, "Oh, well, things just happen".

There is a wonderfull amoung of kindness being exhibited here in New Orleans now. The number of people who have come to gut houses and rebuild them, to clear out parks and replant them, and -- on and on. Often they take their vacation time to do it! No, the problem of the suffering of innocents is not the only fact in the world that needs accounting for.

Some facts, like Mother Teresa's ability to continue her kindness even in the face of such terrible pain and ugliness also needs accounting for. The theologians account for it by "the grace of God".

Ann O.

As an Australian citizen, I extend a hearty welcome to the American President George W Bush and his team from the US (due to arrive shortly) to my home “town,” Sydney, for the APEC (Asia Pacific Economic Co-operation) meeting! I wish them a safe and wonderful time in this breathtakingly beautiful city and a safe return home to the US after a win-win (win-win for all the sections of the society) meeting with all the countries participating in the meeting. I wish too that the meeting will serve to increase the positive relationship between Australia and the US.

Although the Australian government has taken extreme care to arrange the meeting, it seems St Peter, responsible for the weather conditions in Sydney, however has decided to be a spoilt sport. Sadly, the Australian government couldn’t do anything to influence St Peter. The weather which was wonderful all of last week has suddenly turned bad and is expected to remain so all of this week, although the calendar tells us spring has just begun and St Peter ought to be sending us beautiful weather, especially since so many world leaders are going to be here all week. ;)

Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia

Anyway this Chesterton quote sums up our discussion:

"The riddles of God are more satisfying than the solutions of man."

And on that I must go.

God bless...

CTC:

More reductionism from the king of 'gotchas'.

I believe because I've been brainwashed (what about the years when I didn't believe?), MT believed because she was hallucinating, Paul believed because he had a single epileptic fit, Jesus Christ was a Galilean faith healer, did not believe he was God, but disciples stole his body as part of a conspiracy to demonstrate he was God and thus trick the Jews into believing. That about sum it?

Well, if you believe all that, then I have a few WMD's you might want to buy...in a secret place in Iraq known only to me!

"When learned men begin to use their reason, then I generally discover that they haven't got any."-

ILN 11-7-08 GK Chesterton

PS: When I wrote about the need to distinguish between real 'dark of the soul' which the deeply spiritual experience and other non-spiritual states which mimic dark night of the soul (depression, living in sin, religious hypocrisy, not enough time spent in prayer etc), I was not implying that one has to be as totally devoted to God as Mother Theresa and many other spiritual giants were to be called to experience the dark night of the soul. The varying states of doubt as experienced by most believers does not qualify to be called the dark night of the soul.

Ordinary believers like me remain believers in spite of doubt and uncertainty about many things concerning God, except an unwavering faith in His existence. Atheists in comparison seem so confident about everything they claim to believe or disbelieve in.

Concerned the Christian now Liberated

If you believe Jesus existed at all, then it is worth reading the book written by Pope Benedict, "Jesus of Nazareth."

'Concerned':

You are neither concerned nor a Christian. You have never known God, hence your belief system rests in the ideology of neoconservatism.

This is such a bankrupt, incredible and harsh worldview that I believe your ability to form rational judgments has been severely compromised by your atheism.

Soja,

But she did leave the convent--she left the Sisters of Loreto and she went out into the streets of Calcutta. And lost her faith--the submission of her will and intellect to God's revelation--soonafter.

I would think the Sisters, although a missionary order, probably ran a convent school teaching the daughters of upper caste Indians. A convent education has always been much valued in India. Mother Theresa, although not enclosed or contemplative, probably led a very quiet existence. A safe place for a mystic, but not a good preparation for a ministry to the wretched of the earth, eh?

Poor Theresa! She needed our prayers desperately but was unable to ask for them.

Mary C,

Your breeding, birth and brainwashing in orthodox Catholicism are apparent. I recommend a good dose of Crossan and Schillebeeckx to start the healing process.

And how exactly did the Singularity, an invisible spirit with no vocal cords, reveal itself to MT????? Think hallucinations from fasting and lack of sleep!!!

Well, Ann O.we agree that God revealed Himself to Theresa. (Early in her life through the ‘normal’ Catholic way: the sacraments, prayer, the life of a good nun. Later—wonderfully!--directly.)

What is in doubt is her response to Him.

Look, I write as a Christian. I believe that in Jesus Christ we see the face, character and will of God. I write as a Catholic. It is a source of wonder for me that from a poor part of the ancient world, a small band of Aramaic-speaking Jews grew into a organization which has lasted thousands of years and tended billions of people. Even with all its many—and regrettable—faults.

But here we are writing about MT’s faith. The catechism defines faith not as “ the conviction of things not seen” but as the response of the individual to God’s revelation:

“ By faith, man completely submits his intellect and his will to God.2 With his whole being man gives his assent to God the revealer. Sacred Scripture calls this human response to God, the author of revelation, "the obedience of faith".3

Here is the link:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p1s1c3a1.htm

Mother Theresa in her ‘*actions* submitted to God, but IMO not in her intellect or her will. She struggled throughout her entire ministry. Something within her blocked her response. I do not know what happened--and *neither did she*! Her sense of abandonment was acute, that’s all we can say. She was a poor woman, as poor and cast off as any of the broken street people she tended. Maybe mystics shouldn't go forth into the world: "Humankind cannot bear very much reality."

Mother Theresa’s story is a sad one and inexplicable. Will she be canonized? I don't think so. The Church has thousands of saints. One more or less will not make much difference. We might rail against the injustice of what happened to Theresa. But much of what happens in the material world is unjust. We might not like it, but the fact remains, it is all that is on offer. And much of MT’s life was fulfilled, holy and happy; just not the part that all acclaim.

Dear Anne O.

Your comments were thought provoking.

Personally, I experience doubt about God's existence when I'm confronted with religious hypocrisy rather than the extraordinary length of anyone's "dark night of the soul." No matter how long Mother Theresa's dark night lasted, it did not impact on her work for God. It did not force her to abandon her committment to the path she had chosen based on what she firmly believed was God's calling for her. She did not leave the convent nor change her religion because she had no feelings to support her initial committment. Her committment and work is all the more admirable because she remained faithful that long without the support of feelings. We should judge Mother Theresa by her fruits, not by the length of her dark night of the soul, which was only known truly to her and her God and therefore can be judged only by Him.

One must also be vary of making exact comparisons of the spiritual experience of Mother Theresa to those who lived in contemplative orders, e.g. St John of the Cross and Theresa of Avila. Those who lived in contemplative orders had much more time to devote to personal prayer, silence was a way of life for them and they had less worldly distractions to deal with. So the chance of the still small voice of God being drowned in the noise of the world was much less. Mother Theresa was after all a very public figure who had much contact with the world and her calling was to be very active in serving the least in society and to see Christ in those she served.

In someone who does not live a life devoted to God as Mother Theresa did, the lack of the sense of God's presence has other implications: depression, living in sin or religious hypocrisy, not enough time spent in prayer seeking the presence of God...

Soja

Dear Anne O.

Your comments were thought provoking.

Personally, I experience doubt about God's existence when I'm confronted with religious hypocrisy rather than the extraordinary length of anyone's "dark night of the soul." No matter how long Mother Theresa's dark night lasted, it did not impact on her work for God. It did not force her to abandon her committment to the path she had chosen based on what she firmly believed was God's calling for her. She did not leave the convent nor change her religion because she had no feelings to support her initial committment. Her committment and work is all the more admirable because she remained faithful that long without the support of feelings. We should judge Mother Theresa by her fruits, not by the length of her dark night of the soul, which was only known truly to her and her God and therefore can be judged only by Him.

One must also be vary of making exact comparisons of the spiritual experience of Mother Theresa to those who lived in contemplative orders, e.g. St John of the Cross and Theresa of Avila. Those who lived in contemplative orders had much more time to devote to personal prayer, silence was a way of life for them and they had less worldly distractions to deal with. So the chance of the still small voice of God being drowned in the noise of the world was much less. Mother Theresa was after all a very public figure who had much contact with the world and her calling was to be very active in serving the least in society and to see Christ in those she served.

In someone who does not live a life devoted to God as Mother Theresa did, the lack of the sense of God's presence has other implications: depression, living in sin or religious hypocrisy, not enough time spent in prayer seeking the presence of God...

Soja

extraordinarily well put ANNE O- your logic always has a poetic harmony to it-

To question your faith means that you have faith. For Mother Teresa to see evil, sickness, and death on a daily bases as she did, any human with or without faith would have to question why. I respect even more for her honestly and the fact that she can still impact our lives in such a positive way is beautiful.

Mary, Cunninghma,

It seems that at times Mother T. did not believe that God exists. That gave her immense pain.

At other times she believed He was real, but she FELT abandonnned. That gave her immense pain.

However, *feeling* is not the same thing as *thinking that something is so". You can *feel* abandonned and empty if your best beloved goes to New York while you are stuck at home, but that doesn't mean that you *think* he has stopped existing. Ask any psychologist -- feeling and thinking are closely related, but they are not the same thing.

So to speak of Mother T's "loss of faith" for 50 years doesn't seem to fit the facts. True, sometimes she apparently did not believe (think) He existed. At ther times she apparently simply *felt* empty and abandonned. Mystics who have had extremely acute awareness of God's presence within themselves typically described their state of mind after these experiences have stopped as "abandonment". See St. John of the Cross and Theresa of Avila. This doesn't mean they lost their faith -- it means they lost their extraordinary awareness of the presence of Absolute Love within themselves.

What was different about Mother T. was how long the "Dark Night" lasted.

Mary, Cunninghma,

It seems that at times Mother T. did not believe that God exists. That gave her immense pain.

At other times she believed He was real, but she FELT abandonnned. That gave her immense pain.

However, *feeling* is not the same thing as *thinking that something is so". You can *feel* abandonned and empty if your best beloved goes to New York while you are stuck at home, but that doesn't mean that you *think* he has stopped existing. Ask any psychologist -- feeling and thinking are closely related, but they are not the same thing.

So to speak of Mother T's "loss of faith" for 50 years doesn't seem to fit the facts. True, sometimes she apparently did not believe (think) He existed. At ther times she apparently simply *felt* empty and abandonned. Mystics who have had extremely acute awareness of God's presence within themselves typically described their state of mind after these experiences have stopped as "abandonment". See St. John of the Cross and Theresa of Avila. This doesn't mean they lost their faith -- it means they lost their extraordinary awareness of the presence of Absolute Love within themselves.

What was different about Mother T. was how long the "Dark Night" lasted.

Mary, Cunninghma,

It seems that at times Mother T. did not believe that God exists. That gave her immense pain.

At other times she believed He was real, but she FELT abandonnned. That gave her immense pain.

However, *feeling* is not the same thing as *thinking that something is so". You can *feel* abandonned and empty if your best beloved goes to New York while you are stuck at home, but that doesn't mean that you *think* he has stopped existing. Ask any psychologist -- feeling and thinking are closely related, but they are not the same thing.

So to speak of Mother T's "loss of faith" for 50 years doesn't seem to fit the facts. True, sometimes she apparently did not believe (think) He existed. At ther times she apparently simply *felt* empty and abandonned. Mystics who have had extremely acute awareness of God's presence within themselves typically described their state of mind after these experiences have stopped as "abandonment". See St. John of the Cross and Theresa of Avila. This doesn't mean they lost their faith -- it means they lost their extraordinary awareness of the presence of Absolute Love within themselves.

What was different about Mother T. was how long the "Dark Night" lasted.

Mary, Cunninghma,

It seems that at times Mother T. did not believe that God exists. That gave her immense pain.

At other times she believed He was real, but she FELT abandonnned. That gave her immense pain.

However, *feeling* is not the same thing as *thinking that something is so". You can *feel* abandonned and empty if your best beloved goes to New York while you are stuck at home, but that doesn't mean that you *think* he has stopped existing. Ask any psychologist -- feeling and thinking are closely related, but they are not the same thing.

So to speak of Mother T's "loss of faith" for 50 years doesn't seem to fit the facts. True, sometimes she apparently did not believe (think) He existed. At ther