Readers’ Responses to Our Question (145)

http://geo.ya.com/tagomiru/ air travel

Having been baptized & raised Lutheran, I for one have not been happy with the creation of the ELCA. ALC lost every ounce of conservatism to the liberal LCA. When I learned that one of the youth I had known since he was a child and had become an ordained minister, was gay and died of AIDS, I was shocked. Not by this alone, but by the fact that there are so many homosexual ministers. How can they teach me what's right and what's wrong in the Bible, when what they do is contrary to the Bible. Do as I say not as I do. Just like everything else in the ELCA, to hell with Martin Luther & his teachings and to hell with the Bible; seems to be the New way of thinking. Just do what you want and hope for the best. I really wonder if I was wrong in having my daughter and grandchildren baptized in the Church. If homosexuality is OK, then I guess that means you really don't need to be baptized to be saved, anymore.

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Victoria, does your ego need recognition for your ideas and positions? Everyone is basically anonymous on this blog unless they fully identify themselves!

Victoria:

Like you, I love Hermit's posts - and his wicked wit. And I have no difficulty following his line of reasoning.

As for atheism and magic being incompatible, that all depends on how you define magic.

If you define magic as acts of the supernatural, then it would be hard to reconcile it with atheism. But the way I read Hermit's posts, magic is that which, regradless of its source, fills him with a sense of awe and gratitude that he was able to see, feel, or toherwise experience it - and the capability for awe is certainly not limited to those who embrace religion of one sort or another.

And speaking of the eclipse, was that not beautiful? My daughter got up at 3, picked up her boyfriend, and brought him over. My husband and I sat with them in the driveway, waqtching as shadow began to inch across Luna's face. Pretty soon, our upstairs neighbor came home from work and joined us. Then the guys who live a couple of doors down came over as well. The 7 of us sat quietly in the driveway, watching over the rims of coffee cups as the moon went completely dark, and wishing that, just this once, Ron Weasley would show up with his Deluminator and put out those distracting street lights for the duration.

DANIEL- I have always found hermit to be quite consistent in his posts, especially his humor, one of his most endearing qualities.

how can you begin to ask hermit to define atheism for you when the term itself is a catchall for whatever line of thinking falls outside of the mainstream?

he can define what it means to him, but ive discovered as many atheists as i encounter is just as many definitions of it-

have you ever been to an atheist board?
not exactly the most cohesive philisophically, or even scientifically sometimes- but there is cordiality and an amazing lack of judgement passing.

RICK- when do i sleep? good queston- today im up for the total lunar eclipse- prayer starts at 4:35 today-

BUTTERFLY SPRITE- anyone who is cowardly enough to hide behind an anonymous identity does so because deep down they are ashamed of their views and know that they will not bear up under public scrutiny- they realize how tenuous their positions are and simply can't stand behind their words-

ive observed some of the most vicious posts coming from anonymous posters.

they all fade into the same hemogenous lump to me.

A HERMIT:

Keep up the good work. Thank You.

Daniel to Hermit. Your views are hopelessly muddled--a hopeless mishmash of combining this with that and interpreting this to mean that as it suits you. A complete lack of intellectual integrity and fundamentally at bottom utterly typical of our politicized society refusing to really examine anything and trying instead to turn everything into media relations, advertising, spinning info, etc.

It is utterly ridiculous for you to say atheism contains a vast array of beliefs, etc.

If atheists do not believe in God they do not believe in the attributes of such, otherwise the concept of atheism makes no sense. Any fool can see if atheists do not believe in God then there is no intelligent foundation to existence--which is the reason for the whole conflict between religion and evolution in the U.S. (religious people will discount creationism and embrace evolution if only we really try to get at the question of whether existence is fundamentally random or there is intelligence behind things). Try actually reading some books. I have no idea why I try to converse with you. I have rarely read such well written utter gibberish. You have atheists believing in no God and then turning around and speaking of magic, a wide variety of beliefs which are compatible with atheism, etc.--just ridiculous! There is no way to converse with you because everything is so confused, you are so incapable of distinctions that...--no need to continue...

But what the hell. The big issue which you try to duck every which way is the issue of intelligence. If there is no God how did intelligence arise? On one hand you do speak like an atheist and say there is no good reason why intelligence is necessary to produce evolution and then you turn around and classify a wide variety of beliefs as atheism (magic, eastern beliefs, etc.) to try to explain things every which way just to avoid having to say the word "God". Just pathetic. Listen to me carefully Hermit: If you try to present your views as some sort of mainstream atheism to remove man from a belief in God you will fail. I am absolutely certain of that simply because of all the books I have read over the years. I know shoddy construction when I see it. You can think you are on firm ground but you are not. Your views are a muddled mess and either you are dishonest or your I.Q. is no better than about 115. OK verbal skills but no capability at analysis and synthesis. Certainly no books worth speaking of under your belt--no natural gravitation toward method of argument according to logic which wide reading naturally imparts (consider that a little known law of physics).

I have no reason to continue. Conversation is impossible with a person such as you.

oops, that should read: "...absent good reason to believe in such an entity I do NOT feel compelled to believe in one."

AH

I am sorry, but I cannot read your responses to may post as they seem to be posted on top of other posts and are unreadable.

daniel:

I'm not sure why you are having such difficulty. An atheist is simply someone who does not believe in the existence of gods.

Obviously this is a group of people which can contain a vast array of other beliefs, political, philosophical or even magical or religious (I've heard it argued that Buddhists are atheist, because they do not believe in a deity.) Atheists can be selfish Randian Objectivists, idealistic Humanists, loony Raelian cultists or indifferent slackers, or just plain folks. Your problem seems to lie in a desire to put all these diverse people into a neat little pigeonhole labeled "atheists" but obviously it's not that simple.

As for my earlier comments, you seem to be reading an awful lot into them, assuming (inaccurately) some sort of fuzzy pantheism on my part. You would do well to listen to what people actually say instead of tacking on your own assumptions and leaping to unwarranted conclusions. The "little bit of the universe looking back at itself" is just how I like to think of the human race. The Universe, in all its vast and varied and long life, has produced us in one small corner, in one brief instance of time. We have evolved the ability to, however dimly, consciously perceive our small place in all that enormity. Like I said, it's mind boggling and, to me, inspiring and contradicts your rather insulting and small minded assertion that atheists can't feel wonder, know love or produce art.

On evolution, again you take a limited view of things; ie that there is either some intelligence behind evolution, or that the process is "random." This betrays a misunderstanding of the science involved; there certainly are random elements, such as genetic mutation, in the evolutionary process, but other parts, like natural selection, are not "random" but are directed by environmental circumstances and the physical laws of nature. And while it may take an intelligent, cognitive being to understand, describe and record the process that in no way implies that an intelligence is required to produce the process.

And again, none of this absolutely precludes the possibility of an intelligent prime mover, but the probability of such an entity is low, it is not required to move the theory forward (see Occam's Razor) and absent good reason to believe in such an entity I do feel compelled to believe in one.

Hope this helps make my point of view clearer (if not that of all atheists everywhere; I can't help you much with that.)

Regards

A Hermit

To Jay from Daniel. What do you mean by an atheist? I confess to having trouble understanding what an atheist is because it seems a variety of people with a variety of views are using this term, and I suspect they are using this term to describe themselves rather than any other term because they most certainly do not want to be confused with the increasing religious fundamentalism of all types in the world...

I understand by it strictly not believing in God or Gods and therefore attributes of such such as omnipotence, omniscience, original and divine origin to life, etc.

My problem with atheists (defined as I loosely have done above) therefore is that although I too am far from the religious fundamentalism in the U.S., I am not so quick to discount an intelligent origin to life. I am for Darwin's theory of evolution, etc. but I have a problem when people just say life is random, etc. (strict atheists as I understand the term). I can understand proceeding according to scientific proof and not jumping to conclusions, but I have a problem when to the best of my knowledge I am at least somewhat intelligent and then people tell me life is random, there is no intelligent origin to human life, etc. This does not mean I am for intelligent design as people want to teach in school let alone creationism (in other words all people who want to drag their God into the picture just because we cannot yet explain the origin of human intelligence, consciousness, etc.)but I would ask agnostics, atheists, etc. in turn to be extremely careful and honest about presenting themselves because we humans are in the very strange situation of being somewhere in between just believing in things without proof and discounting everything which cannot be proven, and both positions are in error. The one because we are fastened to something without proof, and the other because we are locked into a constricted life of keeping our eyes totally on the ground and taking timid steps to constantly assure we are on secure footing...There is no way to prove ourselves through life, we have to guess much--but not make stupid jumps of blind faith (or rather not be locked into a single and enduring and predictable position of blind faith). A constant alternation between imaginative possibility and methods of proof. I put all this badly today, but I am trying to make an effort here to keep things honest and directed on problems. The problem of atheism and religion will outlast our politics--unless hopefully our politics (among other things) is a constant working on the problem.

Z-Bob did a good post. I can live with him.

Adam, Eve and Original sin- from graduate theology classes at many major Catholic universities:

"The story of Adam and Eve is only symbolic.
This story was composed in the 900s BCE and functions as an etiology (explanatory myth) . In the 900s Israel was self ruling, under King David
and Solomon. The people were no longer at war and the question" Why are we not happy?" may have been asked. The short answer is sin. (Look at 1 Kings 11 for some clues into why the story depicts Eve sinning first and then tempting Adam [Solomon]).
is therefore only symbolic of man's tendencies to sin.

Original Sin is considered symbolic of the sins of our origins -- in our families and in the broader society, both of which affect each person
profoundly. The "sins of our origins" approach helps to account for certain patterns of sin in particular families and societies.

Baptism does not erase original sin since the sin does not exist.

The old "laundry of the soul," approach to Baptism is no longer accepted.

Infant Baptism is only a rite of initiation and commits parents and godparents to bringing up the child in a Christian home.

Since baptism is now celebrated at Sunday Eucharist, all the members of the parish family are encouraged to pledge their support and care for the faith life of the newly baptized. (A manifestation of this is
persons volunteering to teach other people's kids the basics of
Catholicism.)"

And if there was no Adam and Eve, it follows that there was no biblical Noah. see also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noah's_Ark#Other_flood_stories

As per National Geographic's Genographic project:
https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/ Miracles

" DNA studies suggest that all humans today descend from a group of African ancestors who about 60,000 years ago began a remarkable journey. Follow the journey from them to you as written in your genes”.

"Adam" is the common male ancestor of every living man. He lived in Africa some 60,000 years ago, which means that all humans lived in Africa at least at that time.

Unlike his Biblical namesake, this Adam was not the only man alive in his era. Rather, he is unique because his descendents are the only ones to survive.
It is important to note that Adam does not literally represent the first human. He is the coalescence point of all the genetic diversity."

Marilyn T:

Thank you for giving your thoughts on sexuality. You have every right to state them here. Although I don't agree with you: I too feel we are awash in sexual sin. But do you think young homosexual boys should end up hanging from ropes or beaten senseless as in the tape Mia posted:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=FAzMuHyg8Eg

I look for redemption from God. Here is my preferred Scripture:

If my people, who are called by my Name, will humble themselves and pray and seek My Face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land.

WAKE UP PEOPLE..

Marilyn: I'm reminded of a recent case -
A woman goes to a psychologist, and they decide to start with a Rorschach test. She's shown the first picture and sees a man and a woman engaging in oral sex at the beach. In the second, a man and a woman having oral sex in a hottub. The third has a man and a woman having oral sex in a park. In all of the pictures, the woman sees a couple making love. After the test, the psychologist looks over his notes and says, "You seem to have a preoccupation with sex." The woman replies, "You're the one with the dirty pictures."

To: Marilyn Taplin

Are all heterosexual, married couples going to hell if they practice oral sex?

Until mankind understands the original sin in the Garden of Eden we will not understand how to make the world a safe and happy place for all humanity. Homosexuality is a by-product of that first sin as is all the evil on earth today. When a church condones homosexuality, the church is blind. May my study of the original sin help to bring some light on this most controversial subject

Original Sin

When the peoples of earth do not understand the third chapter of Genesis, the story of Adam and Eve and the sin that was forbidden for each and every one of us, we cannot understand God, goodness, holiness or the rest of the Bible.

Departing from God and following the ways of Satan is established in Genesis and revisited throughout every story in Scripture. In the Garden there are only two powers available for man to serve. And today, as it has been since Eden, there are only two powers. This truth is restated in the story of Noah and those in the flood –the population of the earth divided into two groups. If Adam and Eve were placed in the story of Noah, they would not be in the Ark with righteous Noah. Adam and Eve would be in the water for they were deceived by Satan. It was a sexually perverse generation in the water at that time and so it is today. And the land was filled with violence as our land is today.

If placed in the story of just and righteous Lot, the first couple would not have been delivered with just Lot. Adam and Eve would have been citizens of Sodom and Gomorrah. An understanding of this first sin that spread so rapidly is critical for the salvation and well being of mankind, for all sorrows ultimately come from the continuation of original sin.

I believe oral sex was the sin in Eden. Adam and Eve had no one to sin with except each other. Romans 1:28-31 describes men with men and all those who give up the natural use of the body to do that which is not natural. This includes all the sexually perverse: same-sex partners and heterosexual partners married or unmarred who engage in oral and anal sex.

Then the Scripture goes on to tell us what comes out of the minds of those given to unnatural sex. "Being filled with" means their minds are filled with the list of evils that is then listed. Below is the list that fills the minds of those given to unnatural sex.
All unrighteousness
Fornication
Wickedness
Covetousness
Maliciousness
Full of envy
Murder: (All Murder comes from the minds of the sexually perverse. If no one had committed original sin, oral sex, we would still be in a paradise without pain and suffering. When sin ends murder will also end. War will end. Original sin is the root of all that is wrong, all the evils that are committed. It is the root of society’s problems, and until the root of all sin is acknowledged and removed these atrocities will continue. I am not saying all sexually perverse people will commit murder. But all murders come from the minds of the sexually perverse.)
Debate
Deceit: (Lying, injustice, corruption. Corruption in the church and at every level of government comes from the sexually perverse.)
Haters of God: (regardless of what they claim they hate God.)
Proud: (This is the pride God hates. God never walks in a gay pride parade. He never attends a same-sex marriage.)
Boasters
Inventors of evil things: (This would include pornography and sex gadgets.)
Without natural affection: (Today, many are given to unnatural affection as in the perverse generation in the days of Noah as demonstrated in the molestation of children, rape, same-sex relationships, pornography, prostitution, etc.)
Unmerciful: (In the darkness original sin creates those captured by Satan cannot see that they do not care about others. They prefer to please their own desires even if it brings all the evils listed above. The greatest commandment is to love God and one another, but those given to unnatural sex actually are showing hate for God and also for one another. Original sin comes from Satan and Satan is hate. Those who want sin to continue do not love God or their fellow brothers and sisters.

Read the list again and analyze how a nation could put an end to every evil on that list. Isn't the answer simply by putting an end to all unnatural sex? Wouldn't it be much more advantageous to begin a campaign of actions designed to end this so very popular sin rather than to condone, defend, practice, bless and spread it as many churches and our government are doing? However, it is the responsibility of Christianity not the government to bring an end to sin. A holy Christianity will bring an end to sin.

As stated, there are only two powers available for man to serve, God or Satan. Everyone on earth stands with one or the other and so it will be at the end of this age. In Isa.1:9, that truth is stated this way, "Except the Lord of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom and like unto Gomorrah." There is no fence to sit on, no other group to claim to be a member of, and no place to hide. A remnant is left at the end and at that time almost everyone will have been deceived just as the couple in the garden was. In this darkness many will believe oral sex is not sinful.
The Remnant
A few
No unnatural sex
Believe in God
The Narrow way
Upright
Good
Just

Sodom and Gomorrah
The masses
Unnatural sex
Deceived by Satan
The broad way
The fallen
Evil
Unjust

Adam and Eve were the first to be deceived by Satan and if placed in this illustration they would be part of Sodom and Gomorrah. They would not stand with the remnant who believe in the ways of God. There is no other explanation for the sin in Eden. By removing original sin (the root of all other sins) from the earth all other evils will eventually come to an end. I can understand why many heterosexual couples who engage in oral sex believe two people of the same sex can marry. After all, the heterosexual and the homosexual couple are committing the same acts. I believe this is why so many heterosexual couples are in favor of same-sex relationships, marriage, and ordination of the homosexual. One major problem is that our society does not see oral sex as sin for each and every one of us.

Two verses speaking of marriage give the same instructions:
Eph. 5:21, “Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.” The fear of the Lord is to hate evil as stated in Prov.8:13, "The fear of the Lord is to hate evil." A man and his wife are capable of committing evil when submitting in a sexual way. However, they should not commit evil with each other.

And Col. 3:18. “Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.” Husband and wives can do what is unfit. Oral sex is forbidden and unfit for husband and wives.

Don't worry, be happy!

Who do you claim to be God? Jesus, Buddah, Allah, etc. You can vote on this today at http://www.pollicious.com

The world is in a deplorable state and why there is all of this hoop de la, as Bush would call it, over homosexuality is beyond me. The world is in imminent ecological danger, war is rampant and also imminent on all fronts, we live in a constant state of fear and anxiety over terrorist threats, people are losing their homes through forcelosures due to credit flim flam shell games, and the Lutheran Church is worried about this!

Well -Khatami certainly got his payback:

Iranian Reformist and former President Khatami's inoportune handshake with an Italian woman outraged the religious conservatives in his country. Some demanded he lose the offending hand. This incident has prompted him to withdraw from the 2009 presidential race.

I believe the woman provoked it. She actually had her face uncovered. It was too arousing for him. Isn't payback a b'tch?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=kMRtUDtyqHQ

Victoria offers an article from the trendy Salon dotcom- so we know it is valid news. But to balance her viewpoint that Islam is "reinterpreting" itself:

A Harvard student asks Khatami "why does the government in Iran execute gay people?"

http://youtube.com/watch?v=CaFXnyL3ZMQ

And of particular interest to readers here:

Inside Irans Secret Gay World

http://youtube.com/watch?v=FAzMuHyg8Eg

Victoria this truth has to be acknowledged. People are risking and losing their lives.

As evolutionary products of nature, humans exist due to various genetic information which is passed from generation to generation in order to recreate our form to further nature’s constant change and progress. Within the expression of nature’s forms, sexual reproduction was introduced millions of years ago to aid in the diversification of various species and to hasten change within the evolution of biological life forms. However, nature rarely “creates” perfection in forms but instead allows for great variation and imperfection as long as the resulting creatures can survive for further generations. At this point in our evolutionary history, our species has shown a great ability to survive and to manipulate the environment.

Throughout our cultural and social history, humans have attempted to determine their place in the universe and to understand our seemingly unique ability to consciously reflect on our behaviors. Obviously, throughout the history of humankind, there have been people who have had sexual attraction to others of the same gender due to the complex interactions of genetics and hormones and circumstances of birth and life experiences. But should we be concerned with two adult people of the same gender who are involved in a selfless, loving, mutually faithful relationship or should we be more concerned with the selfish sexual behavior of heterosexual, homosexual and bisexual people that creates great suffering instead of great joy and happiness? To repeat part of an earlier post:

If one looks deeply into their existence, one can determine that humans are not separate entities from the rest of the universe. In other words, we as physical beings are intimately connected to other “things” in the universe. We cannot survive without water, oxygen, vegetables, fruit, etc. and, therefore, we are a “part” of the “whole” Our ability to distinguish ourselves from other humans or animals or plants is an evolutionary strategy for self survival. But when you combine our intellectual abilities of conceptualization with our self awareness, we “create” a complex selfish entity. Within our thoughts over our lifetimes, we create an entity of self that attempts to protect itself from others and attach itself to people and to things. In Christian terminology this selfishness is defined as sin. Selfish acts and thoughts always cause the selfish person to suffer. Also, since in true reality we are part of all things, when we are selfless in thoughts and acts, we are one with “god“. And when we are selfish we are separated from “god”. Is this not essentially what history’s great spiritual teachers were teaching? But doesn’t our false, complex creation of an illusory “self” separate each “individual” from the true nature of the universe: Oneness!

Due to the nature of evolutionary biology there will always be humans who are homosexual and bisexual (unless we engage in radical genetic engineering and hormone therapy). The relatively small percentage of people who express this sexual orientation will never threaten the survival of the human species. When they are involved in selfless, loving and mutually faithful relationships, they will not threaten the spiritual, consciousness growth of the human species.

The greater threat to our continued evolution of consciousness, however, is the materialistic and selfish exploitation of sexual images and behavior by the capitalistic corporate marketing techniques created to foster pure greed. The result of this greedy behavior has been a growing percentage of the younger generation of teenagers and twenty somethings who view their bodies as only material objects and others as potential victims of sexual exploitation. Many of these young people are suffering great pain due to this spiritual emptiness created by our materialistic culture. For an enlightening book exposing the failures of our culture regarding young women, I suggest “Female Chauvinist Pigs” by Ariel Levy.

Victoria:

I hope that you don't think that I am making implied judgements against Islam. That would be against my creed as much as narrow minded judgements against Gays.

I merely point out that we should not use ancient texts as the model for living today, be it either the OT, NT ot qu'ran.

Peace!

I love you.

No, no Victoria!!

First things first! If you want to offer your god as a judge, first correct/cleanse your religion.

We have previously provided a ten step correction program for you to use. Apparently you missed that note. Here again are the first five steps. At their completion, we will submit the next five.

Part 1 of the "cleansing".

"The 77 Branches of Faith is a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi. In it, he explains the essential virtues that reflect true faith (iman) through related Qur’anic verses and Prophetic sayings." i.e. a nice summary of the Koran and Islamic beliefs.

"30 qualities are connected to the heart"
(five at a time)

"1. Belief in Allah"

No problem but "aka as God, Yahweh, Zeus, Jehovah, Mother Nature, etc." should be added.

"2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence."

No problem but evolution and the Big Bang cannot be ignored and the "akas" for Allah should be included.

"3. To believe in the existence of angels."

A major item to delete. Angels/devils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations, e.g. Hittites, to explain/define natural events, contacts with their gods, big birds, sudden winds, protectors during the dark nights, etc. No "pretty/ugly wingy talking flying fictional thingies" ever visited or talked to Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or Joseph or Joe Smith. Today we would classify angels as fairies and "tinker bells". Modern devils are classified as the demons of the demented.

"4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore."

Another major item to delete. There are no books written in Heaven just as there are no angels to write/publish/distribute them. The Koran, OT, NT etc. are simply books written by humans for humans.

Prophets were invented by ancient scribes typically to keep the uneducated masses in line. Today we call them fortune tellers.

Prophecies are also invalidated by the natural/God/Allah gifts of Free Will and Future.

"5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) alone."

Mohammed spent thirty days fasting in a cave before his first contact with Allah aka God etc. via a "pwtfft". Common sense demands a deletion of #5. #5 is also the major source of Islamic violence i.e. turning Mohammed's "fast, hunger-driven" hallucinations into horrible reality for non-believers and infidels.

Victoria:

Thanks for the article. That is very interesting. Your response shows as always that you are a sweet and non-judgemental person, but you deftly dodged my question. What does the qu'ran say about homosexuality.

BTW when do you sleep?

heres an interesting article


http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature/2005/07/28/iran_transsexuals/print.html

islam is reinterpting and recreating fresh and easy ways of dealing with modern situations.

if ayatollah khomeini spoke for transexual rights- that is really saying something.
of course we ALL have a long way to go in our judgements of others-all judgements

including i might add mildly, implied judgements against islam
rick- we will be judged by ALLAH (the god) with the same mercy with which we judge others.

gaby- slang in the situation mike described is something others are sharing with him to INCLUDE him in their society.
i have found many gay people to be particularly well-spoken and literate-
in this case i think it's more like a code to indicate one is not judging- and sympatico.

i dont think anyone is suggesting that slang as a means of expression be ones main mode.

anonymous just posted it for childish shock value i think

peace all

Mike wrote:

Either God speaks and we listen (we take the Bible for what it is as a whole) OR we make up whatever we want to believe about God that makes us feel good about ourselves, tells us what we want to hear, and doesn't upset anyone so we can all keep on doing whatever we want to do with our lives.

Hoss wrote:

But more likely, they are just a church that is not scriptural based anymore as they do not believe that the Holy Writ really speaks to the needs of modern people and that God does not have an opinion that He cares to share on the matter anymore, and that modern social expediency and reason is more important and more valid than the accepted Holy Writ. Surely they wouldn’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings or make demands that would label some behaviors as sin like the Bible does.

Maybe ou bad boys want to start killing everyone who works on the sabbath, or all children who curse their parents:

Numbers

Chapter 35

Restatement of Sabath Law

2: Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the Lord: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.

or

Exodus

Chapter 21

17: He that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

Gaby:

Most gay men I know are intelligent and articulate -they speak perfect English. They speak slang to disguise the true meaning of many of their behaviors. Some of it is "disgusting" and some of it is creative and funny.

I don't use slang unless I need to for the sake of bettering communication. If someone is crying and saying -you will never understand- a few choice words kindly spoken say: nothing is so far beyond that I can't understand (even if I don't condone it.)

But when you refuse to learn a slang language: you are saying to a group of people "you are invisible to me. I don't care to know how you live or what you think or feel."

Mike said"

"I do volunteer work in a hospice with last stage AIDS patients. I know most all of the gay slang because I want to be able to speak their language and know their world.

It surprises me to read so many of the posts here saying they don't want to know gay slang. Its like a rejection of a person's life."

I don't agree. I also refuse the learn black, or any other slang. Most of it is degrading! If you can't talk with slang, then maybe you need to learn the English language.

Mike said"

"I do volunteer work in a hospice with last stage AIDS patients. I know most all of the gay slang because I want to be able to speak their language and know their world.

It surprises me to read so many of the posts here saying they don't want to know gay slang. Its like a rejection of a person's life."

I don't agree. I also refuse the learn black, or any other slang. Most of it is degrading! If you can't talk with slang, then maybe you need to learn the English language.

Mike said"

"I do volunteer work in a hospice with last stage AIDS patients. I know most all of the gay slang because I want to be able to speak their language and know their world.

It surprises me to read so many of the posts here saying they don't want to know gay slang. Its like a rejection of a person's life."

I don't agree. I also refuse the learn black, or any other slang. Most of it is degrading! If you can't talk with slang, then maybe you need to learn the English language.

Jerry Crews:

Jesus loves me this I know, for the bible tells me so.

You sound like a brain washed little kid.

So Victoria, what does the qu'ran say about homosexuality?

Ahh, Victoria,

You don't look for anything in the OT or NT or in any other ancient religious text because the koran is simply that, a copy and paste job of said ancient texts plus of course the added militaristic agenda which continues to be cited by all of Islam's members as the rationale to kill infidels.

BettyM:

Thanks. Like Victorias friend's friend, I am a Christian and have befriended PWAs since the mid 80s. In those days no one said HIV, all our patients were called AIDS victims. We came up with PWA (people with AIDS) so our patients would feel less rejection. The internet was fairly new and AIDs workers would meet and post on FidoNet or Prodigy to discuss patient care and give each other support. I am straight and in a faithful marriage, but have known men who feel attracted to other men but remain celibate. If you believe the gay sex act is a sin -it is your only choice. My patients (mostly gay men) have always known me and my belief system. It has NEVER been a problem. In the same way that I want to be able to speak their language and know their world: they want to know my language and my world too. All it takes is time to listen and an open heart to develop true relationship.

And E Fav:

Gay slang may be disgusting to you -but it should not repulse you from the person using it nor should you turn your head, deny it, and pretend all is status quo in your world at least.

for the record jay, muslims dont look to the OT at all for anything we have the qu'ran and it is enough for us-

Daniel sez: "You want a definition of an atheist? Someone who believes in no God, no directing intelligence behind things, all is random, and here we are. If this is not what you mean by atheism then you are not an atheist."

Gee thanks. It's been keeping me awake at night, not knowing myself what it means that I'm an atheist. I'll have to write this down...

"To Jay, no reply necessary...."

Oh good. I didn't want to repeat myself.

I really don't understand the fundamentalist Christian obsession with homosexuality. Jesus said nothing against it. You have to skip the NT and go back to the OT to find anything like justification for reviling gays. And yet, Christians are supposed to be getting their guidance from the NT, true? And does not fundamentalist Christianity eschew any meddling in civil law? There really are no strictly Christian laws, since Jesus himself rejected the idea of a religious kingdom on earth, given that the end was coming anyway. You have to stand Christianity on its head to get the idea that followers of Jesus must work to build a Christian empire on earth.

In short, why do fundamentalist Christians (who should be sticking to the NT) look to the OT, as do Jews and Muslims, for justifying their positions?

my best friend's best friend (besides me, were miles apart for a few years) is an episcoplaian priest who, for the past 30 years has served his flock with distinction.
about 4 or so years ago he was awarded the heinz humanitarian lifetime achievement award for his works.

he says he's gay, but has been celibate for over 30 years, and as far as we know has had only one sexual experience in his life over 30 years ago.

he founded the shepherd wellness center 20 years ago, a drop in center for people with AIDS. the only one in the city.
in 1987, (as was described to me) PWA's (people with aids) were the lepers of america- one man i cared for for 2 years said he felt like a walking germ- people were afraid to breathe the same air as PWA's, let alone interact i nany way- and it was predominantly gay men who had it.
ive seen father lynn sleep in hospitals, stay bedside, to the point where his own fragile health has been irreparably compromised over the years.
his selfless service has been consistent and constant, and even though he's been retired some 6-7 years, he is even more tireless than he was when he was actively working.

his devotion and compassion are boundless-
(i have a photo of him snuggling a cat close to his face, and i know for a fact he's extremely allergic to cats- after the photo he went and quietly had an athsma attack, the poor dear- but rather than reject that stupid cat and disappoint the owner, he held that cat til we took it off of him). a small thing, but an indication of his sensitivity.

he didnt even take a day off when his beloved mother died- there are no days off for him, and you wont meet a gentler man-

but, he's gay, and ministers to mostly gay-
and a christian in the truest sense of the word.

o well, just thought id share that.

o butterfly, i graduated in 1979 (high school) and in middle school let alone high school, i swa many sexually explicit acts in my school, let alone high school, where almost a full half of the girls in my graduating class were either pregnant, or mothers.

it really happens in america- and this was the 70's.

i can't speak for now as i have no reason to be in high schools today.

peace all

Daniel to Hermit. Hermit, you speak of yourself as a tiny part of the universe looking back at itself...I see now...You believe in no God because you yourself (and all examples of consciousness I suppose) are the universe's intelligence--in fact it itself looking back at itself. Tell me Hermit, what exactly is your proof for that? How is that not just another speculation as worthless or as worthy as believing in God? That is just another belief my friend! Something of removing intelligence and direction from the origin (God) and locating it in yourself as if God deciding to become a man. In fact how Christian it is! Something I suppose Christ would say--except unlike Christ you spread the universe around to being all conscious people I suppose...Perhaps you can elaborate further. So far though you are best classified as not an atheist but a believer in an alternative notion of divinity. You want a definition of an atheist? Someone who believes in no God, no directing intelligence behind things, all is random, and here we are. If this is not what you mean by atheism then you are not an atheist. An agnostic says God might exist or might not--we have no idea either way, but we should keep looking and not say stupid things like "I don't believe in God, there is no God" as atheists do. It is a dirty trick to try to combine atheists and agnostics into a movement...

But perhaps you are an atheist: at the beginning of your reply you claim I lack the imagination to consider a possibility other than an intelligence behind existence. That does sound like atheism to me...I would now ask to please exercise your imagination and tell me about this possibility you envision which I am so stupid not to see...Oh yes, this brings us (after a little of this and that) to your "I feel as if a tiny part of the universe looking back at itself". My, what an assumption! We can state we each are a tiny part of the universe wondering about it, but it is quite a jump to say we are it looking at itself! But I do understand you better now Hermit! This is how you have gotten out of the contradiction of removing God but still being left with having to explain human intelligence (because if there is no directing and original intelligence, how did intelligence arise?). You are the universe looking at itself...You might want to read the mystical philosophy of Heideggar...Your view is well known in both Eastern and German circles...But it is a view and not scientific fact and just another strategem...No need to go further...Congratulations! You are not an atheist but rather something of a mystical philosopher. Perhaps you want to explain next how the universe could not have been originally intelligent although you are here as not only a tiny part of it but it itself contemplating itself...Why I bother replying to you people I have no idea...Obviously the vast majority of atheists posting here have thought through nothing about their position. What we have here is rather political nonsense--left versus right. No real discussion of the problems apart from politics. Of course I suppose you are an atheist from the perspective reducing atheism to being equal to leftwing and God to rightwing...How ugly all this is! This is as good an example as any of our politics having destroyed the possibility of national intellectual conversation...And I can see my error--the major one: I have been proceeding all along as if people actually care about the subject under discussion when the people I have been conversing with have been in a left-right wing political war...

To Jay, no reply necessary....

HEYYOU:
**To those who revel in homosexuality. Whats your problem? You have so changed society that now even young girls and boys of the same gender in high school can hold each others hands and make out in the hall ways with little if any consequences.**

What high schools have you been hanging out in? My daughter's high schol doesn't permit making out in the halls, regardles of gender. And I see no problem with couples holding hands, regardless of gender.

**Why do you people spend so much time complaining about not being free to do a sex act when you are free to do a sex act.**

It's not about the act. It's about being deniued basic civil rights based on anatomy.

**I think those of us who think its disgusting to have to see a man and woman having sex in a park are equally (ok maybe not equally) disgusted to see men having sex in a park.**

Man, where do you live? I spend quite a bit of time at the parks in my area and have never seen people having sex there.

**I think you homosexuals just like to xxxxx like those angry unhappy miserable unloved rejected humans tend to do when there is no hope. That is your problem isn't it? No hope.**

No, the problem is being treated liek second-class citizens.

Good for the Lutheran Church.

We are all connected. We are all made from the same "stuff"....the dust of stars. We are all different and yet the same.

It is time to realize that The Word of God ws eons ago. The myth of One God needs to be
updated to a new myth. As Spong says...we need to grow into a new consciousness.

Good for the Lutheran Church.

We are all connected. We are all made from the same "stuff"....the dust of stars. We are all different and yet the same.

It is time to realize that The Word of God ws eons ago. The myth of One God needs to be
updated to a new myth. As Spong says...we need to grow into a new consciousness.

Gay slang is "disgusting". Therefore must have been posted by a xtian.

Your cup of christhate runneth over...

Just because you go to mcdonalds doesn't make you a hamburger. Just because you go to a Christian camp doesn't make you a Christian any more than going to church does. You complain about the lack of love and in the span of a few sentences judge your peers. Facinating how the unsaved mind works.

To those who revel in homosexuality. Whats your problem? You have so changed society that now even young girls and boys of the same gender in high school can hold each others hands and make out in the hall ways with little if any consequences. Why do you people spend so much time complaining about not being free to do a sex act when you are free to do a sex act. I think those of us who think its disgusting to have to see a man and woman having sex in a park are equally (ok maybe not equally) disgusted to see men having sex in a park. Thank God its still illegal! I think you homosexuals just like to xxxxx like those angry unhappy miserable unloved rejected humans tend to do when there is no hope. That is your problem isn't it? No hope.

Mike
thanks for your perspective, your admonition, and for your work at the AIDS clinic.

I think your point is a profound one. We don't want to know about the experiences and language and thoughts and sufferings of our fellows, especially those who suffer most, such as AIDS patients.

A great person once said "nothing human is alien to me." We should engage our fellow humans, whatever we think of the reasons that they are in the situations that they are in. We are all pretty much the same.

Washington Post Thought-Control Specialists: Lighten UP!!!!

your self-righteous cautions about how people should behave on your benighted blog are embarrassing to yourselves. Don't you trust your readers? If I come across a gross or impolite or obscene posting, I as an adult can recognize it for what it is. I have been to the big city. I am a grown up.

Further, having read thousands of posts here, I would say that the danger of my delicate sensibility being permanently damaged by the rough stuff here is about the same as it would be in a convention of librarians.

Grow up, Sally and Jon. What are you afraid of? Free speech?

to "to e"

I'm not assuming you're a Christian, I said MAYBE, IF you're a christian..."

So are you a Christian? or perhaps you're a generic, non-denominational gay hater?

Mike - regarding gay slang - I don't care one way or the other about gay slang or any group's slang. I suspect the reason it was posted here was to show people, who hadn't heard it, how disgusting it was - not such a christian thing to do.

I do volunteer work in a hospice with last stage AIDS patients. I know most all of the gay slang because I want to be able to speak their language and know their world.

It surprises me to read so many of the posts here saying they don't want to know gay slang. Its like a rejection of a person's life.

Back when I was a kid, I went to a Christian camp. Yeah, you see how well it stuck. ;) Anyway, we had several different songs that we would sing. One of them always comes back to me during discussions like this - "And they'll know we are Christians by our love." What that song meant was that Christians should be recognized by their love for their fellow human beings. I wonder sometimes whether that song is still around, and if some of the people who are calling themselves "Christians" can sing it with a straight face.

"I hope so, but maybe not, as men raping and beating women is all through the bible, so maybe it's OK with you if you are a good Christian."

Then quit assuming I'm christian because you disagree with me. Hatred revealed itself in your prejudging and predjudice.

The argument comes down to a belief or disbelief in the Bible as the inerrant word of God. Every competent soul has to make the choice for themselves to believe or disbelieve. As for me and my house we will serve the Lord.

To: to E and To Jamie -

I agree with many christians on many things - like the love and compassion stuff. But not the supernatural stuff or the hateful stuff.

I have nothing against gays and lebians, but I refuse to learn their slang.

It makes no difference. Lutherism will slowly fade from society as will all contemporary forms of Christianity and Islam because of the obvious problems with the founders of these religions especially their angelic/satanic hallucinations and related prophecies/fortune telling.

I'm an atheist and a former Lutheran, and I think this is just fine. We allow divorced pastors to continue serving, don't we? And Jesus himself said that divorcees who remarry are adulterers. He never said anything about homosexuals (mostly that was the Mosaic books and Paul).

"Speaking of slang, does anyone know the meaning of ..."

No, and why is this relevant? There is lots of sexual slang used by gays. Lots of sexual slang used by straights. So what?

Personally, I have no opinion either way. They are free to do what they want as their position does not legally hinder the society as a whole. However, I do find their position hypocritical and disingenuous to their historical doctrinal basis as a church. They profess that the Bible is the complete word of God, but only pay attention to the parts that suit their needs as the Holy Writ clearly classes homosexuality as a serious sin in the same family as adultery and fornication.

Perhaps they have changed and are actually not a “Bible is the complete word of God” church anymore, professing instead that their leading pastors are now essentially new prophets and apostles like the men of old and have the authority to speak in the name of the Lord and give new revelation in God’s name which gives them the authority to add to and correct the Bible.

But more likely, they are just a church that is not scriptural based anymore as they do not believe that the Holy Writ really speaks to the needs of modern people and that God does not have an opinion that He cares to share on the matter anymore, and that modern social expediency and reason is more important and more valid than the accepted Holy Writ. Surely they wouldn’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings or make demands that would label some behaviors as sin like the Bible does.

What ever they are, they need to be honest about what their true doctrinal/authority base is.

Never the less, being very pragmatic, clearly this move will just hasten the declining membership of the Lutheran churches. Religious people of today are voting with their feet.

Most people who associate themselves with an organized religion are choosing to go to a very traditional religion that claims they have had the truth and authority for centuries, or to the newer churches that claim the Bible to be the inviolate complete word of God while earnestly striving to understand and heed all of the precepts found therein, or to the churches that believe that new prophets of God are currently on the earth again with the authority to speak and act in the name of God which gives them the right to clarify ancient scriptural texts, reveal and authenticate newly found ancient prophetic writings and pronounce new scriptural works that have equal validity with the accepted ancient prophetic canon.

All of the above three types of religions are very demanding of their members in labeling what is and is not acceptable behavior. If the Lutherans are concerned at all about their declining and aging membership, this move will probably relegate them in the annals of religious history as an insignificant and misguided “also ran” movement. Perhaps they already are.

E Favorite:

Are you such a christhater that you call everyone you disagree with a christian?

You are wrong -but you are right in this:

Anyone who sexually uses and abuses is disgusting and perverse.

Now go back to the wrinkle room..