Readers’ Responses to Our Question (208)

INTRODUCTION TO HINDUISM
by Dr. Zakir Naik

I INTRODUCTION TO HINDUISM:

The most popular among the Aryan religions is Hinduism. ‘Hindu’ is actually a Persian word that stands for the inhabitants of the region beyond the Indus Valley. However, in common parlance, Hinduism is a blanket term for an assortment of religious beliefs, most of which are based on the Vedas, the Upanishads and the Bhagavad Gita.

II INTRODUCTION TO HINDU SCRIPTURES.

There are several sacred scriptures of the Hindus. Among these are the Vedas, Upanishads and the Puranas.

1.
VEDAS:
The word Veda is derived from vid which means to know, knowledge par excellence or sacred wisdom. There are four principal divisions of the Vedas (although according to their number, they amount to 1131 out of which about a dozen are available). According to Maha Bhashya of Patanjali, there are 21 branches of Rigveda, 9 types of Atharvaveda, 101 branches of Yajurveda and 1000 of Samveda).

The Rigveda, the Yajurveda and the Samveda are considered to be more ancient books and are known as Trai Viddya or the ‘Triple Sciences’. The Rigveda is the oldest and has been compiled in three long and different periods of time. The 4th Veda is the Atharvaveda, which is of a later date.

There is no unanimous opinion regarding the date of compilation or revelation of the four Vedas. According to Swami Dayanand, founder of the Arya Samaj, the Vedas were revealed 1310 million years ago. According to other scholars, they are not more than 4000 years old.

Similarly, there are differing opinions regarding the places where these books were compiled and the Rishis to whom these Scriptures were given. Inspite of these differences, the Vedas are considered to be the most authentic of the Hindu Scriptures and the real foundations of the Hindu Dharma.

2.
UPANISHADS:

The word 'Upanishad' is derived from Upa meaning near, Ni which means down and Shad means to sit. Therefore ‘Upanishad’ means sitting down near. Groups of pupils sit near the teacher to learn from him the secret doctrines.

According to Samkara, ‘Upanishad’ is derived from the root word Sad which means ‘to loosen’, ‘to reach’ or ‘to destroy’, with Upa and ni as prefix; therefore ‘Upanishad’ means Brahma-Knowledge by which ignorance is loosened or destroyed.

The number of Upanishads exceeds 200 though the Indian tradition puts it at 108. There are 10 principal Upanishads. However, some consider them to be more than 10, while others 18.

The Vedanta meant originally the Upanishads, though the word is now used for the system of philosophy based on the Upanishad. Literally, Vedanta means the end of the Veda, Vedasua-antah, and the conclusion as well as the goal of Vedas. The Upanishads are the concluding portion of the Vedas and chronologically they come at the end of the Vedic period.

Some Pundits consider the Upanishads to be more superior to the Vedas.

3.
PURANAS:

Next in order of authenticity are the Puranas which are the most widely read scriptures. It is believed that the Puranas contain the history of the creation of the universe, history of the early Aryan tribes, life stories of the divines and deities of the Hindus. It is also believed that the Puranas are revealed books like the Vedas, which were revealed simultaneously with the Vedas or sometime close to it.

Maharishi Vyasa has divided the Puranas into 18 voluminous parts. He also arranged the Vedas under various heads.

Chief among the Puranas is a book known as Bhavishya Purana. It is called so because it is believed to give an account of future events. The Hindus consider it to be the word of God. Maharishi yasa is considered to be just the compiler of the book.

4.
ITIHAAS:

The two epics of Hinduism are the Ramayana and the Mahabharata.

A. Ramayana:

According to Ramanuja, the great scholar of Ramayana, there are more than 300 different types of Ramayana: Tulsidas Ramayana, Kumbha Ramayana. Though the outline of Ramayana is same, the details and contents differ.

Valmiki’s Ramayana:

Unlike the Mahabharata, the Ramayana appears to be the work of one person – the sage Valmiki, who probably composed it in the 3rd century BC. Its best-known recension (by Tulsi Das, 1532-1623) consists of 24,000 rhymed couplets of 16-syllable lines organised into 7 books. The poem incorporates many ancient legends and draws on the sacred books of the Vedas. It describes the efforts of Kosala’s heir, Rama, to regain his throne and rescue his wife, Sita, from the demon King of Lanka.

Valmiki's Ramayana is a Hindu epic tradition whose earliest literary version is a Sanskrit poem attributed to the sage Valmiki. Its principal characters are said to present ideal models of personal, familial, and social behavior and hence are considered to exemplify Dharma, the principle of moral order.

B. Mahabharata:

The nucleus of the Mahabharata is the war of eighteen days fought between the Kauravas, the hundred sons of Dhritarashtra and Pandavas, the five sons of Pandu. The epic entails all the circumstances leading upto the war. Involved in this Kurukshetra battle were almost all the kings of India joining either of the two parties. The result of this war was the total annihilation of Kauravas and their party. Yudhishthira, the head of the Pandavas, became the sovereign monarch of Hastinapura. His victory is supposed to symbolise the victory of good over evil. But with the progress of years, new matters and episodes relating to the various aspects of human life, social, economic, political, moral and religious as also fragments of other heroic legends came to be added to the aforesaid nucleus and this phenomenon continued for centuries until it acquired the present shape. The Mahabharata represents a whole literature rather than one single and unified work, and contains many multifarious things.

C. Bhagavad Gita:

Bhagavad Gita is a part of Mahabharata. It is the advice given by Krishna to Arjun on the battlefield of Kurukshetra. It contains the essence of the Vedas and is the most popular of all the Hindu Scriptures. It contains 18 chapters.

The Bhagavad Gita is one of the most widely read and revered of the works sacred to the Hindus. It is their chief devotional book, and has been for centuries the principal source of religious inspiration for many thousands of Hindus.

The Gita is a dramatic poem, which forms a small part of the larger epic, the Mahabharata. It is included in the sixth book (Bhismaparvan) of the Mahabaharata and documents one tiny event in a huge epic tale.

The Bhagavad Gita tells a story of a moral crisis faced by Arjuna, which is solved through the interaction between Arjuna, a Pandava warrior hesitating before battle, and Krishna, his charioteer and teacher. The Bhagavad Gita relates a brief incident in the main story of a rivalry and eventually a war between two branches of a royal family. In that brief incident - a pause on the battlefield just as the battle is about to begin - Krishna, one chief on one side (also believed to be the Lord incarnate), is presented as responding to the doubts of Arjuna. The poem is the dialogue through which Arjuna’s doubts were resolved by Krishna’s teachings.

CONCEPT OF GOD IN HINDUISM
by Dr. Zakir Naik


1.

Common Concept of God in Hinduism:

Hinduism is commonly perceived as a polytheistic religion. Indeed, most Hindus would attest to this, by professing belief in multiple Gods. While some Hindus believe in the existence of three gods, some believe in thousands of gods, and some others in thirty three crore i.e. 330 million Gods. However, learned Hindus, who are well versed in their scriptures, insist that a Hindu should believe in and worship only one God.

The major difference between the Hindu and the Muslim perception of God is the common Hindus’ belief in the philosophy of Pantheism. Pantheism considers everything, living and non-living, to be Divine and Sacred. The common Hindu, therefore, considers everything as God. He considers the trees as God, the sun as God, the moon as God, the monkey as God, the snake as God and even human beings as manifestations of God!

Islam, on the contrary, exhorts man to consider himself and his surroundings as examples of Divine Creation rather than as divinity itself. Muslims therefore believe that everything is God’s i.e. the word ‘God’ with an apostrophe ‘s’. In other words the Muslims believe that everything belongs to God. The trees belong to God, the sun belongs to God, the moon belongs to God, the monkey belongs to God, the snake belongs to God, the human beings belong to God and everything in this universe belongs to God.

Thus the major difference between the Hindu and the Muslim beliefs is the difference of the apostrophe ‘s’. The Hindu says everything is God. The Muslim says everything is God’s.


2.

Concept of God according to Hindu Scriptures:

We can gain a better understanding of the concept of God in Hinduism by analysing Hindu scriptures.

BHAGAVAD GITA

The most popular amongst all the Hindu scriptures is the Bhagavad Gita.

Consider the following verse from the Gita:

"Those whose intelligence has been stolen by material desires surrender unto demigods and follow the particular rules and regulations of worship according to their own natures."
[Bhagavad Gita 7:20]

The Gita states that people who are materialistic worship demigods i.e. ‘gods’ besides the True God.


UPANISHADS:

The Upanishads are considered sacred scriptures by the Hindus.

The following verses from the Upanishads refer to the Concept of God:

"Ekam evadvitiyam"
"He is One only without a second."
[Chandogya Upanishad 6:2:1]1

"Na casya kascij janita na cadhipah."
"Of Him there are neither parents nor lord."
[Svetasvatara Upanishad 6:9]2

"Na tasya pratima asti"
"There is no likeness of Him."
[Svetasvatara Upanishad 4:19]3

The following verses from the Upanishad allude to the inability of man to imagine God in a particular form:

"Na samdrse tisthati rupam asya, na caksusa pasyati kas canainam."

"His form is not to be seen; no one sees Him with the eye."
[Svetasvatara Upanishad 4:20]4

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1[The Principal Upanishad by S. Radhakrishnan page 447 and 448]
[Sacred Books of the East, volume 1 ‘The Upanishads part I’ page 93]

2[The Principal Upanishad by S. Radhakrishnan page 745]
[Sacred Books of the East, volume 15, ‘The Upanishads part II’ page 263.]

3[The Principal Upanishad by S. Radhakrishnan page 736 & 737]
[Sacred Books of the East, volume 15, ‘The Upanishads part II’ page no 253]

4[The Principal Upanishad by S. Radhakrishnan page 737]
[Sacred Books of the East, volume 15, ‘The Upanishads part II’ page no 253]

THE VEDAS
Vedas are considered the most sacred of all the Hindu scriptures. There are four principal Vedas: Rigveda, Yajurveda, Samveda and Atharvaveda.

Yajurveda
The following verses from the Yajurveda echo a similar concept of God:

"na tasya pratima asti
"There is no image of Him."
[Yajurveda 32:3]5

"shudhama poapvidham"
"He is bodyless and pure."
[Yajurveda 40:8]6

"Andhatama pravishanti ye asambhuti mupaste"
"They enter darkness, those who worship the natural elements" (Air, Water, Fire, etc.). "They sink deeper in darkness, those who worship sambhuti."
[Yajurveda 40:9]7

Sambhuti means created things, for example table, chair, idol, etc.

The Yajurveda contains the following prayer:
"Lead us to the good path and remove the sin that makes us stray and wander."
[Yajurveda 40:16]8

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5[Yajurveda by Devi Chand M.A. page 377]

6[Yajurveda Samhita by Ralph T. H. Giffith page 538]

7[Yajurveda Samhita by Ralph T. H. Giffith page 538]

8[Yajurveda Samhita by Ralph T. H. Griffith page 541]

Atharvaveda
The Atharvaveda praises God in Book 20, hymn 58 and verse 3:

"Dev maha osi"
"God is verily great"
[Atharvaveda 20:58:3]9

Rigveda

The oldest of all the vedas is Rigveda. It is also the one considered most sacred by the Hindus. The Rigveda states in Book 1, hymn 164 and verse 46:
"Sages (learned Priests) call one God by many names."
[Rigveda 1:164:46]

The Rigveda gives several different attributes to Almighty God. Many of these are mentioned in Rigveda Book 2 hymn 1.

Among the various attributes of God, one of the beautiful attributes mentioned in the Rigveda Book II hymn 1 verse 3, is Brahma. Brahma means ‘The Creator’. Translated into Arabic it means Khaaliq. Muslims can have no objection if Almighty God is referred to as Khaaliq or ‘Creator’ or Brahma. However if it is said that Brahma is Almighty God who has four heads with each head having a crown, Muslims take strong exception to it.

Describing Almighty God in anthropomorphic terms also goes against the following verse of Yajurveda:

"Na tasya Pratima asti"
"There is no image of Him."
[Yajurveda 32:3]

Another beautiful attribute of God mentioned in the Rigveda Book II hymn 1 verse 3 is Vishnu. Vishnu means ‘The Sustainer’. Translated into Arabic it means Rabb. Again, Muslims can have no objection if Almighty God is referred to as Rabb or 'Sustainer' or Vishnu. But the popular image of

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9[Atharveda Samhita vol 2 William Dwight Whitney page 910]

Vishnu among Hindus, is that of a God who has four arms, with one of the right arms holding the Chakra, i.e. a discus and one of the left arms holding a ‘conch shell’, or riding a bird or reclining on a snake couch. Muslims can never accept any image of God. As mentioned earlier this also goes against Svetasvatara Upanishad Chapter 4 verse 19.

"Na tasya pratima asti"
"There is no likeness of Him"

The following verse from the Rigveda Book 8, hymn 1, verse 1 refer to the Unity and Glory of the Supreme Being:

"Ma cid anyad vi sansata sakhayo ma rishanyata"
"O friends, do not worship anybody but Him, the Divine One. Praise Him alone."
[Rigveda 8:1:1]10

"Devasya samituk parishtutih"
"Verily, great is the glory of the Divine Creator."
[Rigveda 5:1:81]11

Brahma Sutra of Hinduism:

The Brahma Sutra of Hinduism is:

"Ekam Brahm, dvitiya naste neh na naste kinchan"

"There is only one God, not the second; not at all, not at all, not in the least bit."

Thus only a dispassionate study of the Hindu scriptures can help one understand the concept of God in Hinduism.

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0[Rigveda Samhita vol. 9, pages 2810 and 2811 by Swami Satya Prakash Sarasvati and Satyakam Vidyalankar]

11[Rigveda Samhita vol. 6, pages 1802 and 1803 by Swami Satya Prakash Saraswati and Satyakam Vidyalankar]

as from the sun." The Prophecy confirms:

The name of the Prophet as Ahmed since Ahmed is an Arabic name. Many translators misunderstood it to be ‘Ahm at hi’ and translated the mantra as "I alone have acquired the real wisdom of my father".

Prophet was given eternal law, i.e. the Shariah.

The Rishi was enlightened by the Shariah of Prophet Muhammad. The Qur’an says in Surah Saba Chapter 34 verse 28 (34:28):

"We have not sent thee but as a universal (Messenger) to men, giving them glad tidings and warning them (against sin), but most men understand not."

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in Hindu scriptures
by Dr. Zakir Naik

I
Muhammad (pbuh) prophesised in Bhavishya Purana

According to Bhavishya Purana in the Prati Sarag Parv III Khand 3 Adhay 3 Shloka 5 to 8.
"A malecha (belonging to a foreign country and speaking a foreign language) spiritual teacher will appear with his companions. His name will be Mohammad. Raja (Bhoj) after giving this Maha Dev Arab (of angelic disposition) a bath in the Panchgavya and the Ganga water (i.e. purifying him of all sins) offered him the present of his sincere devotion and showing him all reverence said, "I make obeisance to thee. O ye! The pride of mankind, the dweller in Arabia, Ye have collected a great force to kill the Devil and you yourself have been protected from the malecha opponents."

The Prophecy clearly states:

The name of the Prophet as Mohammad.

He will belong to Arabia. The Sanskrit word Marusthal means a sandy track of land or a desert.

Special mention is made of the companions of the Prophet, i.e. the Sahabas. No other Prophet had as many companions as Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

He is referred as the pride of mankind (Parbatis nath). The Glorious Qur’an reconfirms this

"And thou (standest) on an exalted standard of character"
[Al-Qur'an 68:4]|

"Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah, a beautiful pattern (of conduct)".
[Al-Qur'an 33:21]

He will kill the devil, i.e. abolish idol worship and all sorts of vices.

The Prophet will be given protection against his enemy.

Some people may argue that ‘Raja’ Bhoj mentioned in the prophecy lived in the 11th century C.E. 500 years after the advent of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and was the descendant in the 10th generation of Raja Shalivahan. These people fail to realise that there was not only one Raja of the name Bhoj. The Egyptian Monarchs were called as Pharaoh and the Roman Kings were known as Caesar, similarly the Indian Rajas were given the title of Bhoj. There were several Raja Bhoj who came before the one in 11th Century C.E.

The Prophet did not physically take a bath in the Panchgavya and the water of Ganges. Since the water of Ganges is considered holy, taking bath in the Ganges is an idiom, which means washing away sins or immunity from all sorts of sins. Here the prophecy implies that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was sinless, i.e. Maasoom.

According to Bhavishya Purana in the Pratisarag Parv III Khand 3 Adhay 3 Shloka 10 to 27 Maharishi Vyas has prophesised:

"The Malecha have spoiled the well-known land of the Arabs. Arya Dharma is not to be found in the country. Before also there appeared a misguided fiend whom I had killed; he has now again appeared being sent by a powerful enemy. To show these enemies the right path and to give them guidance, the well-known Muhammad (pbuh), is busy in bringing the Pishachas to the right path. O Raja, You need not go to the land of the foolish Pishachas, you will be purified through my kindness even where you are. At night, he of the angelic disposition, the shrewd man, in the guise of Pishacha said to Raja Bhoj, "O Raja! Your Arya Dharma has been made to prevail over all religions, but according to the commandments of Ishwar Parmatma, I shall enforce the strong creed of the meat eaters. My followers will be men circumcised, without a tail (on his head), keeping beard, creating a revolution announcing the Aadhaan (the Muslim call for prayer) and will be eating all lawful things. He will eat all sorts of animals except swine. They will not seek purification from the holy shrubs, but will be purified through warfare. On account of their fighting the irreligious nations, they will be known as Musalmaans. I shall be the originator of this religion of the meat-eating nations."

The Prophecy states that:

The evil doers have corrupted the Arab land.

Arya Dharma is not found in that land.

The Indian Raja need not go the Arab land since his purification will take place in India after the musalmaan will arrive in India.

The coming Prophet will attest the truth of the Aryan faith, i.e. Monotheism and will reform the misguided people.

The Prophet’s followers will be circumcised. They will be without a tail on the head and bear a beard and will create a great revolution.

They will announce the Aadhaan, i.e. ‘the Muslim call for prayer’.

He will only eat lawful things and animals but will not eat pork. The Qur’an confirms this in no less than 4 different places:

In Surah Al-Baqarah chapter 2 verse 173
In Surah Al-Maidah chapter 5 verse 3
In Surah Al-Anam chapter 6 verse 145
In Surah Al-Nahl chapter 16 verse 115

"Forbidden to you for food are dead meat, blood, flesh of swine, and that on which hath been invoked the name of other than Allah".

They will not purify with grass like the Hindus but by means of sword they will fight their irreligious people.

They will be called musalmaan.

They will be a meat-eating nation.

The eating of herbivorous animals is confirmed by the Qur’an in Surah Maidah, chapter 5 verse 1 and in Surah Muminun chapter 23 verse 21

According to Bhavishya Purana, Parv - III Khand 1 Adhay 3 Shloka 21-23:

"Corruption and persecution are found in seven sacred cities of Kashi, etc. India is inhabited by Rakshas, Shabor, Bhil and other foolish people. In the land of Malechhas, the followers of the Malechha dharma (Islam) are wise and brave people. All good qualities are found in Musalmaans and all sorts of vices have accumulated in the land of the Aryas. Islam will rule in India and its islands. Having known these facts, O Muni, glorify the name of thy lord".

The Qur’an confirms this in Surah Taubah chapter 9 verse 33 and in Surah Al Saff chapter 61 verse 9:

"It is He who hath sent His Messenger with Guidance and the Religion of Truth, to proclaim it over all religion, even though the Pagans may detest (it)".

A similar message is given in Surah Fatah chapter 48 verses 28 ending with, "and enough is Allah as a witness".


II

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) Prophesised in Atharvaveda

In the 20th book of Atharvaveda Hymn 127 Some Suktas (chapters) are known as Kuntap Sukta. Kuntap means the consumer of misery and troubles. Thus meaning the message of peace and safety and if translated in Arabic means Islam.

Kuntap also means hidden glands in the abdomen. These mantras are called so probably because their true meaning was hidden and was to be revealed in future. Its hidden meaning is also connected with the navel or the middle point of this earth. Makkah is called the Ummul Qur’a the mother of the towns or the naval of the earth. In many revealed books it was the first house of Divine worship where God Almighty gave spiritual nourishment to the world. The Qur’an says in Surah Ali-Imran chapter 3, verse 96:

"The first house (of worship) appointed for men was that at Bakkah (Makkah) full of blessings and of guidance and for all kinds of beings". Thus Kuntap stands for Makkah or Bakkah.

Several people have translated these Kuntap Suktas like M. Bloomfield, Prof. Ralph Griffith, Pandit Rajaram, Pandit Khem Karan, etc.

The main points mentioned in the Kuntap Suktas i.e. in Atharvaveda book 20 Hymn 127 verses 1-13 are:

Mantra 1
He is Narashansah or the praised one (Muhammad). He is Kaurama: the prince of peace or the emigrant, who is safe, even amongst a host of 60,090 enemies.

Mantra 2
He is a camel-riding Rishi, whose chariot touches the heaven.

Mantra 3
He is Mamah Rishi who is given a hundred gold coins, ten chaplets (necklaces), three hundred good steeds and ten thousand cows.

Mantra 4
Vachyesv rebh. ‘Oh! ye who glorifies’.

The Sanskrit word Narashansah means ‘the praised one’, which is the literal translation of the Arabic word Muhammad (pbuh).

The Sanskrit word Kaurama means ‘one who spreads and promotes peace’. The holy Prophet was the ‘Prince of Peace’ and he preached equality of human kind and universal brotherhood. Kaurama also means an emigrant. The Prophet migrated from Makkah to Madinah and was thus also an Emigrant.

He will be protected from 60,090 enemies, which was the population of Makkah. The Prophet would ride a camel. This clearly indicates that it cannot be an Indian Rishi, since it is forbidden for a Brahman to ride a camel according to the Sacred Books of the East, volume 25, Laws of Manu pg. 472. According to Manu Smirti chapter 11 verse 202, "A Brahman is prohibited from riding a camel or an ass and to bathe naked. He should purify himself by suppressing his breath".

This mantra gave the Rishi's name as Mamah. No rishi in India or another Prophet had this name Mamah which is derived from Mah which means to esteem highly, or to revere, to exalt, etc. Some Sanskrit books give the Prophet’s name as ‘Mohammad’, but this word according to Sanskrit grammar can also be used in the bad sense. It is incorrect to apply grammar to an Arabic word. Actually shas the same meaning and somewhat similar pronunciation as the word Muhammad (pbuh).

He is given 100 gold coins, which refers to the believers and the earlier companions of the Prophet during his turbulent Makkan life. Later on due to persecution they migrated from Makkah to Abysinia. Later when Prophet migrated to Madinah all of them joined him in Madinah.

The 10 chaplets or necklaces were the 10 best companions of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) known as Ashra-Mubbashshira (10 bestowed with good news). These were foretold in this world of their salvation in the hereafter i.e. they were given the good news of entering paradise by the Prophet’s own lips and after naming each one he said "in Paradise". They were Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Ali, Talha, Zubair, Abdur Rahman Ibn Auf, Saad bin Abi Waqqas, Saad bin Zaid and Abu Ubaidah (May Allah be well-pleased with all of them).

The Sanskrit word Go is derived from Gaw which means ‘to go to war’. A cow is also called Go and is a symbol of war as well as peace. The 10,000 cows refer to the 10,000 companions who accompanied the Prophet (pbuh) when he entered Makkah during Fateh Makkah which was a unique victory in the history of mankind in which there was no blood shed. The 10,000 companions were pious and compassionate like cows and were at the same time strong and fierce and are described in the Holy Quran in Surah Fatah:
"Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other."
[Al-Qur'an 48:29]

This mantra calls the Prophet as Rebh which means one who praises, which when translated into Arabic is Ahmed, which is another name for the Holy Prophet (pbuh).

Battle of the Allies described in the Vedas.

It is mentioned in Atharvaveda Book XX Hymn 21 verse 6, "Lord of the truthful! These liberators drink these feats of bravery and the inspiring songs gladdened thee in the field of battle. When thou renders vanquished without fight the ten thousand opponents of the praying one, the adoring one."

This Prophecy of the Veda describes the well-known battle of Ahzab or the battle of the Allies during the time of Prophet Muhammed. The Prophet was victorious without an actual conflict which is mentioned in the Qur’an in Surah Ahzab:

"When the believers saw the confederate forces they said, "This is what Allah and His Messenger had promised us and Allah and His Messenger told us what was true." And it only added to their faith and their zeal in obedience."
[Al-Qur'an 33:22]

The Sanskrit word karo in the Mantra means the ‘praying one’ which when translated into Arabic means ‘Ahmed’, the second name of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh).

The 10,000 opponents mentioned in the Mantra were the enemies of the Prophet and the Muslims were only 3000 in number.

The last words of the Mantra aprati ni bashayah means the defeat was given to the enemies without an actual fight.

The enemies’ defeat in the conquest of Makkah is mentioned in Atharvaveda book 20 Hymn 21 verse no 9:

"You have O Indra, overthrown 20 kings and 60,099 men with an outstripping Chariot wheel who came to fight the praised one or far famed (Muhammad) orphan."

The population of Makkah at the time of Prophet’s advent was nearly 60,000

There were several clans in Makkah each having its own chief. Totally there were about 20 chiefs to rule the population of Makkah.

An Abandhu meaning a helpless man who was far-famed and ‘praised one’. Muhammad (pbuh) overcame his enemies with the help of God.


III

Muhammad (pbuh) prophesised in the Rigveda

A similar prophecy is also found in Rigveda Book I, Hymn 53 verse 9:

The Sanskrit word used is Sushrama, which means praiseworthy or well praised which in Arabic means Muhammad (pbuh).


IV

Muhummad (pbuh) is also prophesised in the Samveda

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is also prophesised in the Samveda Book II Hymn 6 verse 8:

"Ahmed acquired from his Lord the knowledge of eternal law. I received light from him just as from the sun." The Prophecy confirms:

The name of the Prophet as Ahmed since Ahmed is an Arabic name. Many translators misunderstood it to be Ahm at hi and translated the mantra as "I alone have acquired the real wisdom of my father".

Prophet was given eternal law, i.e. the Shariah.

The Rishi was enlightened by the Shariah of Prophet Muhammad. The Qur’an says in Surah Saba chapter 34 verse 28

"We have not sent thee but as a universal (Messenger) to men, giving them glad tidings and warning them (against sin), but most men understand not."
[Al-Qur'an 34:28]

Faithfulservant3 wrote (fulminated):

"Do you think India, known for its persecution of Muslims and Christians, would allow a Christian prayer to open up its national legislature?"

Inside the Rashtrapathi Bhavan (House of the President), there is small mosque for Muslims to pray. It was done by the former (Muslim) President of India, Dr. Zakir Hussain, and also prayed later by the other Muslim presidents, Fakhruddin Ali Ahmed, and, last one - Dr. Abulpakir Jainal Abedin Abdul Kalam. Well, thanks to persecution of minorities in India.

How does that stand up with the barbaric Saudi Arabia, that persecutes everyone else who is a non-Muslim for openly professing and practicing their faith ?

With all of the criticism over the response of some Christians to the senate allowing a Hindu prayer to open their session, the following thought occurred to me:

Do you think India, known for its persecution of Muslims and Christians, would allow a Christian prayer to open up its national legislature?

All possible kind of questions asked by non Muslims about Islam answered on below web sites:

ALL MISCONCEPTIONS AND FALSE MEANINGS ARE ANSWERED:

1-www.irf.net/irf/faqonislam/index.htm (on this site you will get all answers about Islam, CHRISTIANITY, JESUS, JUDAISM , ETHEISIM, HINDUISM and all other religions).
2-www.islamalways.com/
3-www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/
4-www.jamaat.net/deedat.htm
5-www.islamtomorrow.com/yusuf.asp
6-www.justaskislam.com/index.php
7-www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/Q_LP/ (The Lawful and Prohibited in Islam)

a. All religion have issues because it is in the nature of the human being to deviate froom its divine nature and become demonic - unless restrained with good teachings and practices.

b. Any organized religion with power, money, and organization hierarchy, would lead to corruption and scandals of sex, money embezzlement, and even murder. Though they can not be avoided, the degrees of them should be reduced so that less of them happens.

c. Wish there is a meter that classifies various religious factions by some criteria and meters the problems faced different religious groups.
But hating ALL people of OTHER religions and calling their SAINTS/GODS bad is not a solution. This is nothing but bigotry. And hiding behind anonymous postings is not a brave act.

d.Colonizations, Conversions and Slavery are things that are in History. The terrorism today is the new name for the things mentioned. So is Ethinic Cleaning that was seen in Bosnia, and now being seen in Africa. The issue of Dalits should also be raised to the same levels but wondered why the rest of the world is not noticing their poor plight. I am sure the problem is there and a sad one. Please read William Durant to get a fair and decent idea. But this does not mean that all people from US, UK, Rome, Greece, Persia, India, China and Africa are bad. And all Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Budhhists, and others are bad. Human tendency is to generalize a community based on deeds of a few from any community. That is why understanding history and statistics are very important.

Organized Religion has proven to be bad, and any classification has proven to be bad. Only an individual communication with the Divine, and being Spiritual and following good teachings is important. We should take a syncretic approach, and the best teachings of Christ, Gnostics, Muslims, Sufis, Jews, Budhhists, Jains, Tao-ism, Shinto-ism, Vaishnavies Bhakti, Shaivite Yoga and Tantra (which is more than what meets a western eye), and Vedanta should be followed by all of us.

That means the education should also focus on comparative religious studies and one should follow whatever teachings that suits a person.

Only truth is that we are part and parcel of the same Creator, including the Flora and Fauna of this world.

Lets us for a good beginning, follow the teachings of Christ: "Do not look Me in outside the world, but inside yourself."

And lets be flexible like this: "Worship in any form or kind of any God, is worship of Me."

Lets take a step, and make friends from another community and give out your love and understanding.

Time for me to say good bye to this thread. Did not realize that somewhere you get sucked into arguments though your intentions are noble and kind.

AMEN, AMIN, AUM.

Sudha,

Looks like you are very emotional about the issue and do not see the logic. I am not saying the problem is not there. But I am saying stop beating all Hindus and Krishna. You are venting all your poison on all Hindus and Krishna, which is not good for you or any Dalit or anyone.

How many times I should I am sorry for all the plight of Dalits and also for the miseries of the world. If you think I can change that by me getting crucified, then please go ahead and I would be more than willing. Really I mean it because this is my secret wish to God and I wish there was a magic like this.

All I am requesting is to Stop blaming all Hindus, which sounds all politically motivated rantings, and cursing their God. This is nothing but bigotry and for the same reason you and Dalits have suffered.

One wrong can not be made right by another wrong.
A tooth for a tooth, and an eye for an eye, will make the whole world blind.

Once again, I am sorry for all what you feel. If you think your hatred for Hindos helps your cause, go ahead and feel happy. Your happiness and peace is more important to me - because that is what I have learnt as a Hindoo.

Love
Sunil.

Hey Sudha,

Some people converting from Hinduism to other religions? Not a problem! Good riddance to bad rubbish... And you say you are not a convert. Maybe it is time you convert too, that would help cleanse the religion!

Good-bye!

It seems that only "White skinned people" are blamed for all the evils in the world.

When I read History, I see every race, tribe and kingdom was waging war on others.

When white-skinned americans/british were doing the evil i.e Occupation, I find every other race/tribe/religion/kingdom/nation doing the same evil i.e waging war and occupying other lands.

White-skinned christians were occupying, black african (pagan) tribes were waging wars on one another, chinese kings on other kings, hindu gods/kings on their fellow hindu kings, muslim kings on jews/christians/pagans, pagan kings on others.

So, The evil of colonalism is not just white's fault. Their only weak point is they won wars, while others lost. Poor whites

Sunil,

You assume that I am a christian and you are busy showing the bad deeds of christians and their gods.. It's funny. I don't blindly follow a person just because many follow him. I ask again: where is ahimsa (non-violence) in krishna?

As some one pointed out, there are hypocrites here. They dont allow people of other religions (and their own people) into their temples but cry about a protest on a hindu prayer in american congress.

What a shame.

And.. do you know why dalits convert to other religions?

A thousand Dalits embraced Buddhism a day after Ambedkar Jayanti in Orissa’s Kendrapara district. However, these were conversions with a difference.

The Dalits were shunning hinduism in protest as they weren't allowed inside the Jagannath temple located in the area."Even though we were Hindus we were not allowed inside the temple to worship the Lord. So what is the use of being in this religion? So in protest we have embraced Buddhism," said Kendrapara resident Laxmipriya Mallick.

http://www.hindujagruti.org/news/article/save-temples/barred-from-temple-dalits-convert.html

And.. do you know why some dalits convert?

A thousand Dalits embraced Buddhism a day after Ambedkar Jayanti in Orissa’s Kendrapara district. However, these were conversions with a difference.

The Dalits were shunning hinduism in protest as they weren't allowed inside the Jagannath temple located in the area."Even though we were Hindus we were not allowed inside the temple to worship the Lord. So what is the use of being in this religion? So in protest we have embraced Buddhism," said Kendrapara resident Laxmipriya Mallick.

http://www.hindujagruti.org/news/article/save-temples/barred-from-temple-dalits-convert.html

Sunil,

One word: Pathetic.

I have never said that I am a convert. I do not work for anyone. I work for my fellow dalits.

Your words show your true nature. If you think that the attrocities on dalits are fake, then open your eyes and read the reports from the mainstream media by yourself.

Sudha:

You have not said that you are a converted Christian and the organization you are giving URLs are working with a Christian Organization in India, whose whole motive is to convert the whole continent of India into Christians, and now you need to compete with the Islamists, who are trying to do the same! You are just repeating their brain-washed attacks on Hindus. And this site was not meant for this propoganda. If you had restricted your talk to Dalit's oppersion, I would have respected it. But if you are attacking a well known and respected Hindu God and all Hindus, then I must say you have fallen to the same level of the very people you accuse.

To get rid of one social problem, your are just helping create 'n' number of social problems. Just the history of conversion for last 1700 years, and see if the world has become less safer or more safer.

The same conversion zealots called Gnostics Christians heretics and did a quite a good job of wiping them out and bad mouthing them. They infact tried burning all their books and libraries, and convinced a lot of people for 1700-2000 years that they were wadoo and black magic practitioners, till last few years. The book discoveries has proven them to be all lies.

Similarly, all the attacks on Celtic Worship in name of Pagan Worship has gone the same way and serious scholarship has shown that they were not practitioner of things they are accused of by Christian zealots, e.g. Sorcery, Magic Incantations,etc.

Every society has some bad elements and if someone is exploting it for their political gains, they are not themselves better than the very people they are accusing!

Go ahead and convert all Hindoos, and I bet the world would be only become a worst place, and by then some new religions would have only sprung up, trying to convert the Christians and Muslims!

Have you heard of Neo Paganism and Scientology? Perhaps Dalit and rest of Hindoos should join that so that they do not have to convert again.

Sudha,

I think you are right about Krishna. Please spread the word louder in person to everyone surrounding you and see your own stupidity. I would say please do not. YOu are only going to hurt yourself. And I think generations of Hindus for 5000 years were stupid. And all British Scholars who wrote about him were simply naive and stupid who could not see as wisely as you do.

Now someone would come and say Christ was lusty because he favoured Mary M who also happened to be a ex-prostitute. Did Christ liberate her or was he exploiting her?

The filth is in the eyes of the beholder, I would say. Please liberate yourself and speak good and wise of others, atleast of the saints/incarnations from the past from all religions if expect kindness, respect and love towards your faith and creed. This is my sincere advise to you.

Sudha,

This is very shameful indeed. Do you have statistics of how many poor Hindus who are not Dalits but get killed or bonded because of socio economic reasons? My point is that being Dalit one comes up with a ready-made excuse both for the offenders to have reasons to do something wrong and for the victims to use the "class attribute" to say they are victims because of their class. I am not saying such things do not happen but what you are trying to portray that this is the majority of the cases and this is like an ethinic cleansing of mass proportions. If it is, I am sure this would have hit the world headlines.

India is a country of 1B plus, with a vast region and many different ethinic backgrounds. Yes this is shocking and during my entire stay in India at different places, I never heard about it, except for Bihar where Bhumiars (Landlords) would do this against Dalits, that too in I heard in the news papers once a while. Yes to the victim this is a big deal and they are justified in grabbing the main head lines, and I would do the same.

Having said that, you should not say all Hindus are racist. Its like saying because of all terrorists are from Islam, all muslims are terrorists. Its like saying because a lot of blacks were burnt by some White Supremacists, a.k.a Klu Klax Clan, all Christians and Whites are Racists. Because statitics shows that most of crimes are conducted by lower economic strata people, of who Blacks and Hispanics fall in the majority, that all Blacks are bad, rapists, and thugs. This stereo typing is a tendency of an uneducated amd emotional individual.

What is the fraction of total population are you reporting? I can give the same flip number saying the lower class of Hindus who are not Dalits but poor are also victims of their Socio-Economic Classes. Are they being killed and exploited because they are backward in class but not Dalits? It's a complex question. If one is being killed because one has touched something, then it is a religion based hate crime but if one is trying to organize an union of labourers against the landlord, it is a different matter. Both are wrong but the later can not be just classified as a racial matter - but a socio economic matter where something more is a problem. So one can not say all landlords are racist because of stray incidents like the later one.

After the 911, in the US, many Sikhs and minorities faced the same problem and some were killed. In one of the most safest city in the US, ranking wise 1, a helpless Afgan was killed when she was walking with her children, by some bigot who hated her for she wearing her traditional dress and/or she being a Muslim. Similarly, many Christians were burnt who went against the Roman Church and tried to reform the church. Am sure you know about the Slavery issues in the US, and about the issues of the famouse Irish Belfast bombings that went on for decades till recent. And I am sure you know about Sunni and Shias killing each other in Iraq and Pakistan.

So the point I am making, by attacking all Hindus, you are not solving the problem but increasing the problem for Dalits and creating a very untrue image of Hindus and negative image of India. The US and UK is not known for the incidents which I mentioned. This forum was not about hating religion but showing how orthodoxy in any religion is bad and if orthodox protestors to the Hindu Chaplin Prayers were right or should the prayer been allowed.

Yes it is very terrible that such things are happening to Dalits or anyone in the name of religion, or any other man made reasons.

Think like this, at one time all work harassment related victims were supposed to be females, and any female felt harassed for some reason, could easily label it as a sexual harassement - even if there was no sexual tone to it. And if no male victims were thought to ever exist. But the truth is between the two extremes, and in majority cases female are victims, but as the society females get more bold and liberated, it is natural to see more male as victims.

Please do not get me wrong. I have all sympathies for you and feel the offenders are brought to justice, which I know is pathetic in India. I must admit that. But please do not call all Hindus racial, as it only helps the sterotyping. which Hindus have themselves suffered at the hands of Invaders.

Sudha,

This is very shameful indeed. Do you have statistics of how many poor Hindus who are not Dalits but get killed or bonded because of socio economic reasons? My point is that being Dalit one comes up with a ready-made excuse both for the offenders to have reasons to do something wrong and for the victims to use the "class attribute" to say they are victims because of their class. I am not saying such things do not happen but what you are trying to portray that this is the majority of the cases and this is like an ethinic cleansing of mass proportions. If it is, I am sure this would have hit the world headlines.

India is a country of 1B plus, with a vast region and many different ethinic backgrounds. Yes this is shocking and during my entire stay in India at different places, I never heard about it, except for Bihar where Bhumiars (Landlords) would do this against Dalits, that too in I heard in the news papers once a while. Yes to the victim this is a big deal and they are justified in grabbing the main head lines, and I would do the same.

Having said that, you should not say all Hindus are racist. Its like saying because of all terrorists are from Islam, all muslims are terrorists. Its like saying because a lot of blacks were burnt by some White Supremacists, a.k.a Klu Klax Clan, all Christians and Whites are Racists. Because statitics shows that most of crimes are conducted by lower economic strata people, of who Blacks and Hispanics fall in the majority, that all Blacks are bad, rapists, and thugs. This stereo typing is a tendency of an uneducated amd emotional individual.

What is the fraction of total population are you reporting? I can give the same flip number saying the lower class of Hindus who are not Dalits but poor are also victims of their Socio-Economic Classes. Are they being killed and exploited because they are backward in class but not Dalits? It's a complex question. If one is being killed because one has touched something, then it is a religion based hate crime but if one is trying to organize an union of labourers against the landlord, it is a different matter. Both are wrong but the later can not be just classified as a racial matter - but a socio economic matter where something more is a problem. So one can not say all landlords are racist because of stray incidents like the later one.

After the 911, in the US, many Sikhs and minorities faced the same problem and some were killed. In one of the most safest city in the US, ranking wise 1, a helpless Afgan was killed when she was walking with her children, by some bigot who hated her for she wearing her traditional dress and/or she being a Muslim. Similarly, many Christians were burnt who went against the Roman Church and tried to reform the church. Am sure you know about the Slavery issues in the US, and about the issues of the famouse Irish Belfast bombings that went on for decades till recent. And I am sure you know about Sunni and Shias killing each other in Iraq and Pakistan.

So the point I am making, by attacking all Hindus, you are not solving the problem but increasing the problem for Dalits and creating a very untrue image of Hindus and negative image of India. The US and UK is not known for the incidents which I mentioned. This forum was not about hating religion but showing how orthodoxy in any religion is bad and if orthodox protestors to the Hindu Chaplin Prayers were right or should the prayer been allowed.

Yes it is very terrible that such things are happening to Dalits or anyone in the name of religion, or any other man made reasons.

Think like this, at one time all work harassment related victims were supposed to be females, and any female felt harassed for some reason, could easily label it as a sexual harassement - even if there was no sexual tone to it. And if no male victims were thought to ever exist. But the truth is between the two extremes, and in majority cases female are victims, but as the society females get more bold and liberated, it is natural to see more male as victims.

Please do not get me wrong. I have all sympathies for you and feel the offenders are brought to justice, which I know is pathetic in India. I must admit that. But please do not call all Hindus racial, as it only helps the sterotyping. which Hindus have themselves suffered at the hands of Invaders.

Here's the story of krishna with his 16,000 concubines

A king named Narakasura, was as powerful as he was evil. He would invade village after village and kidnap beautiful women, imprison them and use them for his pleasures. The number he had imprisoned was said to be 16,000. Krishna came to hear of this menace and immediately led a rescue mission. Narakasura was defeated and killed. one of the husband refused to take his wife back saying that she was defiled by another man and he could no longer accept her. One by one all 16,000 made their way back to Krishna. Krishna gave them a good home and the women lived very happily in the palace.

wow. mind-blowing story.

Sunil,

You dont need to ask forgiveness. Just help one dalit. Actions speak louder than words.

I used to think a god is a role-model for humans to follow. Not in the case of krishna.

I doubt whether krishna existed at all. I mean things like whole world was shown in his mouth, killing many people with his chakra, playing with 16,000 gopikas etc.I read about krishna, his acts during childhood and adult life.

For arguments sake, suppose krishna existed.If you read about him, you can see his life is filled with violence, murder, lusts for women etc. Remember krishna killed karna with deceit, krishna left abhimanya at his own peril.

where is ahimsa in krishna? he killed his enemies and friends alike. In my view, he is an immoral person.

3. Dalit beaten to death for praying at village temple
http://www.ahrchk.net/ua/mainfile.php/2001/149/

4. "This boy represents the 250 million Dalits called Untouchables, who have been told by the upper castes of India that they are less than human. If even a Dalit’s shadow falls on an upper caste person, that person is polluted according to caste rules."

http://www.dalitnetwork.org/

Check out some of the atrocities on dalits by racist upper caste hindus in cities as well as in rural areas.

1. Dalit Killed For Attempting Puja(Prayer) in a temple
http://www.countercurrents.org/dalit-chamaria091003.htm

2. Dalit killed for digging own well
http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/StoryPage.aspx?id=8a253bbf-7572-48ec-b333-d93824bc5d48

Subhuman lives

Oppression stalks dalits in India, says Praful Bidwai
http://www.indiatogether.org/dalit/articles/bidwai1002.htm

JUST SOME of the Crimes committed on Dalits from April 2000 to December 2002, reported in National Daily's. Hundreds of Such crimes go unreported.
http://www.ambedkar.org/crime.htm

I am working with my fellow dalits, who have been oppressed by the racist hindus. I believe all are equal, there should be no castes - just human caste. Thankfully, many are coming out from this evil, racist caste system

Alex,

As a former dalit/untouchable/lower caste and ex-hindu, I am speaking from my own experience. You have your own experience with racist whites. I have witnessed, experienced and seen the racist caste system that killed millions and is
killing many at the moment.

And this caste system is prevalent in cities too. For your info, India is more than 70% rural.

You seem so ignorant of the dalits. Let me enlighten you.

"In the Indian caste system, a Dalit, often called an untouchable, or an outcaste, is a person who according to traditional Hindu belief does not have any "varnas". Varna refers to the Hindu belief that most humans were supposedly
created from different parts of the body of the divinity Purusha. The part from which a varna was supposedly created defines a person's social status with regards to issues such as who they can marry and which professions they could hold. Dalits fall outside the varnas system and have historically been prevented from doing any but the most menial jobs."

"An estimated 40 million people in India, most of them Dalits, are bonded workers, many working in slave-like conditions to pay off debts that were incurred generations ago. The majority
of Dalits live in segregation and experience violence, murder, rape and atrocities to the scale of 110,000 registered cases a year according to 2005 statistics"

Alex,

As a former dalit/untouchable/lower caste and ex-hindu, I am

speaking from my own experience. You have your own

experience with racist whites. I have witnessed, experienced

and seen the racist caste system that killed millions and is

killing many at the moment.

And this caste system is prevalent in cities too. For your info,

India is more than 70% rural.

You seem so ignorant of the dalits. Let me enlighten you.

"In the Indian caste system, a Dalit, often called an

untouchable, or an outcaste, is a person who according to

traditional Hindu belief does not have any "varnas". Varna

refers to the Hindu belief that most humans were supposedly

created from different parts of the body of the divinity Purusha.

The part from which a varna was supposedly created defines

a person's social status with regards to issues such as who

they can marry and which professions they could hold. Dalits

fall outside the varnas system and have historically been

prevented from doing any but the most menial jobs."

"An estimated 40 million people in India, most of them Dalits,

are bonded workers, many working in slave-like conditions to

pay off debts that were incurred generations ago. The majority

of Dalits live in segregation and experience violence, murder,

rape and atrocities to the scale of 110,000 registered cases a

year according to 2005 statistics"

Priest bars non-hindus from entering temple

Thiruvananthapuram: The Head Priest of the Guruvayur Temple in Kerala has said that non-Hindus cannot enter the temple.

Priests and religious heads had met in Thrissur on Thursday to discuss who can be allowed inside the temple after the recent controversy around the purification ceremony conducted in the Guruvayur Temple following the visit of Union Minister Vayalar Ravi’s son Ravi Krishna.

The temple authorities had objected to Krishna’s visit because his mother, Mercy, is a Christian and claimed that his visit had defiled the temple, which is the abode of Lord Sree Guruvayurappan.

Over 70 percent of the priests who attended the meeting were against the entry of non-Hindus.

Reacting to the decision Krishna told CNN-IBN: "I am born a Hindu. It is because I belong to the OBC that I'm not allowed inside Guruvayur temple."

Vayalar Ravi, too, had lashed out at the Guruvayur temple management on May 22 for carrying out purification rituals after his son visited the temple.

A similar ritual was performed when Krishna had visited the temple after his marriage seven years back.

"There was a similar controversy when my son got married in Guruvayur. My caste was not allowed temple entry. We protested against it. This incident is shocking. My family is agitated," Ravi had said.

http://www.ibnlive.com/news/guruvayur-priest-bars-nonhindus/41813-3.html

what do you say about this?

In a country where millions go to bed hungry, Rs.1 million worth of food meant as holy offering at Orissa's Jagannath temple was destroyed Friday because a foreigner had entered it - an act seen as defiling the premises.

Priests at the temple in Puri, 56 km from here, also performed rituals to cleanse the shrine after Paul Rodgier, a 55-year-old American Christian, visited it Thursday afternoon.

The priests fined him Rs.209 when he pleaded that he was not aware of any restriction on the entry of foreigners to the temple. Rodgier had reportedly come to the government-run National Thermal Power Corp in Angul district on official work a few days ago.

http://www.topix.net/in/puri/2007/03/food-destroyed-at-jagannath-temple-after-foreigners-entry

If this is the other way around, (Indian not allowed), then we could witness the uproar (just like this blog).

Sudha:

One advice to you, never criticize anyone's accepted incarnated God/Saint but yes you have the right to criticise the people who err on following the teachings of the incarnated God or Saint.

Put yourself in 3100 BC. Children playing pranks like stealing butter from houses of people who love you and adore you when one is 5-9 years old. And when you do not, they feel sad, that you have not come to do that! If you have followed the whole story, you would see the incidences where one member of the household tells Krishna that where the butter is hidden by the other member of the household, and person watching over the butter is knowingly ignoring the intruder! These were all the past times of the Lord as a child.

Bitterness should not lead to cursing any accepted Saint or God of any sect. Its like after 9/11 people cursing Saint Mohammad because of misplaced value of violence in zihad, which first means that one has to conquor oneself first of his or her negative tendencies.

Sudha,

Your experience and experience of Dalits is a very unfortunate one but does not speak of Hinduism as per say. Please forgive those who have given this bitter experience to you. You are as precious as any life on this planet. This is what Hinduism teaches, to respect life, Plants, Trees, Animals and Man alike, but lately it is just following the steps of counter parts of rest of the world. I embrace you with all love and touch your feet seeking your forgiveness. Your are a better person than them and more dearer to God because you have suffered and experienced pain and know what it is.

In fact Krishna says, "Those who see Oneself in Others and Others in Oneself is dearer to Me. Or those who see Me in Oneself and Me in Others, have realized Me." The same is taught in Vedanta. But the sad part is that some human beings with demonic nature do the terrible things to fellow beings, regardless of their religion.

"Na visesJio asti varnanaih sanam Iruhmam idam jagat rahmana purva-srithaam hi karmalhir varnatam gatam" Mababharata."

There is no distinction of castes. This world, which was created by Brahma, was at first entirely Brahmanic, has become divided into classes in consequence of men's works.

But the Priest Class invented the rigidity of "the class system by caste" to perpetuate their Dynastic Monopoly and then people carried to their extremes. It was meant to be "class system by work". Even today, Presidents' sons and wives become Presidents, to perpetuate the dynastic ruling even if they are not competent. See what happened with current president and the Florida voting debacle where another son was the Governor!

We have become a demonic society everywhere. We pen Cows and Bulls in a constrained space where they can not move so that their muscles do not develop so that their meat is soft! We do the same with Chicken for same reasons, and then recyle their droppings in a mechanised conveyor system, to be mixed and fed back by an automatic feeder.

Which religion has forced people to convert by the hand of a sword? Looks at the history of Christinity till late middle century. Look at the history of Islam till now. See wherever the White Christian Colonists went, their the natives were wiped out, if they were not developed in their material civilization, but may have been more spiritually advanced, except for India and China. Red Indians, Maoris, Abrogines of Australia, Native Americans of South America, Blacks of South Africa, and even Arabs today, since for last 100 years the Arab problem has happened because of the divide and conquer policies of Colonists, Imperialists, and Western Industrial Powers.

But that does not mean Christ taught all this. In fact my wish is they everyone really becomes a Christ in practice.

P.S. I do not believe in hiding my identity and saying something. It was a mistake that I did not type my name before posting but one could have traced me as I mentioned URLs regarding similiarity between Krishna and Christ, and Gnostics and Vedenta in other postings, where my name is there.

Sudha wrote to Anonymous:

"Your ignorance baffles me.Hinduism is the most racist religion I have ever seen. It divides people from birth, dividing them into various castes. If you are born in a low caste, you will be treated as an untouchable. They have no rights, not even to drink water from the public wells etc.I was born into a lower caste. I know what it feels like an untouchable. You dont.If you dont believe, just google dalits killed."

On another of Sudha's provocative comments, I had responded somewhat similarly.

As an Indian Christian, now a naturalized American, I must say say emphatically that in my experience of living with Hindus in India or here or anywhere, Hindus are not the most racist people that I have come across. That notoriety goes to the white folks of this world, especially those who enslaved Blacks, Asians and Hispanics.

Sudha appears to have not visited India's cities and its urban centers in recent times. I have. There are no public wells or taps that are forbidden for use by anyone. In the hinterland of India and its villages, it is quite true that there are frequent reports of caste prejudice being alive and well, with the police standing idly by without enforcing the anti-untouchability act which makes such prejudicial acts criminal. That is a problem very similar to some of our police especially in southern states standing idly by when African-Americans or Hispanics or Asians or Muslims in recent days are subjects of hate crime at the hands of a scant minority of white thugs. That does not make the entire white community of the US to be called racist.

I was born into a tiny minority community in India, viz., Christian. I grew up with majority of Hindus, and minorities of Muslims, Jews, Parsis, Budhists, Jains, Dalits etc. I have never felt that I was discriminated against by my fellow Hindus because of my faith. Yes, I have seen some discrimination against Dalits, by Hindus, Muslims, Christians, and even Buddhists not inviting their Dalit classmates to their homes. The non-Hindu (converts to Christianity, Islam, Budhism, Sikh) seem to practice subtly their former caste prejudices despite a change of their faith, especially in matters of matrimonial alliances in case of arranged marriages. That is in some ways similar to the preferences often expressed by white, blacks, hispanics, asians etc to marry their own kind! Fortunately, both in India and the US, inter-racial and inter-caste weddings are becoming more common and accepted by the society as a whole.

If Sudha feels that it is all hunky-dory in the US, as far as race relations and or interfaith relations are concerned, she should utilize her own advice to others and start googling of hate crimes in the US.

Leaving one's faith or one's community in the face of oppression or prejudice is not the answer. There is plenty that is wrong in my church. I stay and fight to rectify as many as I can. I win some and I lose some. But, we are making progress, at least by identifying a majority in our church who are not fudnamentalist who believe that the only way to salvation is through christianity.

Anonymous:

Your ignarance baffles me.

Hinduism is the most racist religion I have ever seen. It divides people from birth, dividing them into various castes. If you are born in a low caste, you will be treated as an untouchable. They have no rights, not even to drink water from the public wells etc.

I was born into a lower caste. I know what it feels like an untouchable. You dont.

If you dont believe, just google dalits killed.

Reg. krishna attracting childern by stealing, it sounds very funny. why would a god attract children through stealing? krishna stole, had 16,000 gopikas (concubines), killed many with his chakra (round axe) and killed through his follewer, arjuna. He is filled with violence and immoral sex -- To call such an immoral person a god is quite funny. gopis(concubines) were symbols of devotees..funny how?

My heartfelt condolences to all the families and friends of those who lost their lives in the recent tragedies in the US! May they all find comfort in their God, if they happen to believe in one, or in whatever gives them the strength to bear the pain. Most of all, may they find people who stand by them, giving them whatever consolation and support they need, as they work through their losses and learn to live with it, to move on in spite of it.

Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia

Sudha:

Hinduism is not a religion but a mixture of many many philosphical schools. Like all religions, priest classes get corrupted. Nowwhere the untouchable issue has been mentioned in Vedas, in fact the other day I came across a book on Indian People by John Muir, and it quoted in its heading on the very essence you are touching. The class system was not meant to be as it became and has been seen everywhere in the world, including Egypt and other ancient worlds. What it became was an exploitation of Priest Class to perpetuate dynastic ruling over the masses - for power and financial reasons. This is the sad part of the Indian History.

Regarding Krishna, you are just projecting your views. We all see based on the color of the lens we wear. And science and Quantum Mechanics has proven this. Its like me saying Christ was nudist because I see him like this on the cross. And it will be my mistake. His child hood pranks were for attracting children to Him. His Gopis where the symbols of Devotees with God, where one thinks of himself as God's Lover or God's wife, which even Christian traditions carry and so did Gnostics. And if your curse Krishna, you are cursing Christ, because you should go and read the links I have posted.

For the sake of taking syncretic view between Christinity and Hinduism, I would strongly suggest people to see parallels in Christ and Christna (Krishna) in my postings of the URLs.

And I find Vedanta Philosphy mirroring Gnosticism.

As an ex-hindu, I can say that hinduism is a racist religion, which treats people as "untouchables"/dalits. The caste-system is kiling millions of dalits.

Concerning krishna, he had 16000 gopikas/concubines; that's why you see the girls dancing around an idol of krishna. he was a myth, he used to kill others by his chakra ( like a round -axe). he was a thief as a child. To call kisna a god is funny. the isckon devotees (kisna followers) are involved in a large no of crimes here in India.

Look, for all you guys who don't believe in God thats fine. You don't believe we should pray in government places, that fine. However when you do that you trample on the same first ammendment that is so precious to you. You have no problem quenching my right to free speech and freedom practice my religion. Typical.

For those of you who say God has killed more people blah blah blah, look at history and tell me honestly did God kill those people or did people who were hungry for power and control do that? Were there people who did horrible things in the name of God this is true. But many more did things in the name of greed, lust for power control etc. Stalin, Hitler, Idi Amin, Noriega, Chavaz. The Genocide in the Sudan, China. I could go on but you get the point.

My point is that you are entitled to your own opinion you are not however entitled to the facts.

Fact: The constitution clearly states that the government shall not be in the business of establishing a church. It does not prohibit the the expression of faith in government or in any way say that people of faith should not be involved in government.

Fact: Most, not all of the men who are considered our founding fathers were christian. Judeo-Christian values are expressed everywhere in our founding documents. Look around our museums and memorials in Washington Reference to God are everywhere. Just look around.

Fact: Thomas Jefferson was not against the church or christianity. When he wrote the letter to the Danbury baptists which is where the phrase "seperation of church and state" comes from not, the constitution just days later he attended a church service in the rotunda of the capitol. hardly

Look around...read the books written by the men themselves. They are called autobiographies or read the the documents they wrote during the day in which they lived and then figure out for yourselves whether they were men of faith or not instead of relying on research from wikipedia. Whether you feel that prayers should not be prayed in the senate is fine, but to hide behind a clause that does not exist in our constitution is weak.

I find no problem with what was said in the "Treaty of Tripoli" I don't think our founding fathers were trying to establish a christian nation, but I do believe that their beliefs in God played a role in the way our government was designed to function.

Just my 2cents!

Look, for all you guys who don't believe in God thats fine. You don't believe we should pray in government places, that fine. However when you do that you trample on the same first ammendment that is so precious to you. You have no problem quenching my right to free speech and freedom practice my religion. Typical.

For those of you who say God has killed more people blah blah blah, look at history and tell me honestly did God kill those people or did people who were hungry for power and control do that? Were there people who did horrible things in the name of God this is true. But many more did things in the name of greed, lust for power control etc. Stalin, Hitler, Idi Amin, Noriega, Chavaz. The Genocide in the Sudan, China. I could go on but you get the point.

My point is that you are entitled to your own opinion you are not however entitled to the facts.

Fact: The constitution clearly states that the government shall not be in the business of establishing a church. It does not prohibit the the expression of faith in government or in any way say that people of faith should not be involved in government.

Fact: Most, not all of the men who are considered our founding fathers were christian. Judeo-Christian values are expressed everywhere in our founding documents. Look around our museums and memorials in Washington Reference to God are everywhere. Just look around.

Fact: Thomas Jefferson was not against the church or christianity. When he wrote the letter to the Danbury baptists which is where the phrase "seperation of church and state" comes from not, the constitution just days later he attended a church service in the rotunda of the capitol. hardly

Look around...read the books written by the men themselves. They are called autobiographies or read the the documents they wrote during the day in which they lived and then figure out for yourselves whether they were men of faith or not instead of relying on research from wikipedia. Whether you feel that prayers should not be prayed in the senate is fine, but to hide behind a clause that does not exist in our constitution is weak.

I find no problem with what was said in the "Treaty of Tripoli" I don't think our founding fathers were trying to establish a christian nation, but I do believe that their beliefs in God played a role in the way our government was designed to function.

Just my 2cents!

Look, for all you guys who don't believe in God thats fine. You don't believe we should pray in government places, that fine. However when you do that you trample on the same first ammendment that is so precious to you. You have no problem quenching my right to free speech and freedom practice my religion. Typical.

For those of you who say God has killed more people blah blah blah, look at history and tell me honestly did God kill those people or did people who were hungry for power and control do that? Were there people who did horrible things in the name of God this is true. But many more did things in the name of greed, lust for power control etc. Stalin, Hitler, Idi Amin, Noriega, Chavaz. The Genocide in the Sudan, China. I could go on but you get the point.

My point is that you are entitled to your own opinion you are not however entitled to the facts.

Fact: The constitution clearly states that the government shall not be in the business of establishing a church. It does not prohibit the the expression of faith in government or in any way say that people of faith should not be involved in government.

Fact: Most, not all of the men who are considered our founding fathers were christian. Judeo-Christian values are expressed everywhere in our founding documents. Look around our museums and memorials in Washington Reference to God are everywhere. Just look around.

Fact: Thomas Jefferson was not against the church or christianity. When he wrote the letter to the Danbury baptists which is where the phrase "seperation of church and state" comes from not, the constitution just days later he attended a church service in the rotunda of the capitol. hardly

Look around...read the books written by the men themselves. They are called autobiographies or read the the documents they wrote during the day in which they lived and then figure out for yourselves whether they were men of faith or not instead of relying on research from wikipedia. Whether you feel that prayers should not be prayed in the senate is fine, but to hide behind a clause that does not exist in our constitution is weak.

I find no problem with what was said in the "Treaty of Tripoli" I don't think our founding fathers were trying to establish a christian nation, but I do believe that their beliefs in God played a role in the way our government was designed to function.

Just my 2cents!

nuthin i love more than a joke that really stinks- to high heaven, if you will
exit stage left

Q. What did the Rev. Skunk say to his congregation?
A. Let us spray.

Lepido:

True, you can pray at home or your church. But someone, somewhere in our history, believed that opening prayers were important in group events. Presumably they thought it served an important purpose, as the National Anthem or performing the Pledge do before other events. My guess is all these things serve to instill a sense (or provide a reminder) of what unifies the assembled group. Except in religion, where we are not so unified.

I was in a movie theatre on a military base many years ago, and the anthem was played before the feature. My recollection is that this used to be more common in civilan theatres as well.

i cant remeber when or where i saw this, but it is indelibly etched into my consciousnesssung to the tune of th