Readers’ Responses to Our Question (176)

2lMvks U cool ))

2lMvks U cool ))

All possible kind of questions asked by non Muslims about Islam answered on below web sites:
ALL MISCONCEPTIONS AND FALSE MEANINGS ARE ANSWERED:
1-www.irf.net/irf/faqonislam/index.htm (on this site you will get all answers about Islam, CHRISTIANITY, JESUS, JUDAISM , ETHEISIM, HINDUISM and all other religions).
2-www.islamalways.com/
3-www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/
4-www.jamaat.net/deedat.htm
5-www.islamtomorrow.com/yusuf.asp
6-www.justaskislam.com/index.php (on this site you will get answer of every question you have and asked, with in a day or by next day - IT’S A CHALLENGE !!!)
Antitoxin from yellow slimy diseased filthy homo brains…CCNL…severe USA BUSHY madness syndrome…criminals…etc.

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Most profound passage:

"With...Without. And who'll deny, it's what the fighting's all about"

-Pink Floyd, from the Darkside of the Moon

(PS--I'm actually serious, rather than making fun of this form)

harold- it's pretty likely that i dont get the same meaning from your post-
maybe you could tell us why this impacts your life?

the WORDS are very clear if you have an eye to see, an ear to hear, a heart to percieve:

Psa 22:25 My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
Psa 22:26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
Psa 22:27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
Psa 22:28 For the kingdom is the LORD's: and he is the governor among the nations.
Psa 22:29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.
Psa 22:30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
Psa 22:31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

do you swee "A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation. They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this." the seed of GOD will teach you.

1Sa 17:45 Then said David to the Philistine, Thou comest to me with a sword, and with a spear, and with a shield: but I come to thee in the name of the LORD of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel, whom thou hast defied.
1Sa 17:46 This day will the LORD deliver thee into mine hand; and I will smite thee, and take thine head from thee; and I will give the carcases of the host of the Philistines this day unto the fowls of the air, and to the wild beasts of the earth; that all the earth may know that there is a God in Israel.
1Sa 17:47 And all this assembly shall know that the LORD saveth not with sword and spear: for the battle is the LORD's, and he will give you into our hands.

now look at what DAVID said, "I come to thee in the name of the LORD of hosts" It is DAVID who will show you the way. DAVID c omes in the name of the LORD, JUDAH Remember, "And she conceived again, and bare a son: and she said, Now will I praise the Lord: therefore she called his name Judah; and left bearing." Do you not see "Now will I praise the Lord: therefore she called his name Judah" One praises GOD, JUDAH, not DAVID who comes in HIS NAME.

Psa 18:43 Thou hast delivered me from the strivings of the people; and thou hast made me the head of the heathen: a people whom I have not known shall serve me.
Psa 18:44 As soon as they hear of me, they shall obey me: the strangers shall submit themselves unto me.
Psa 18:45 The strangers shall fade away, and be afraid out of their close places.
Psa 18:46 The LORD liveth; and blessed be my rock; and let the God of my salvation be exalted.
Psa 18:47 It is God that avengeth me, and subdueth the people under me.
Psa 18:48 He delivereth me from mine enemies: yea, thou liftest me up above those that rise up against me: thou hast delivered me from the violent man.

Now lookm at, "Thou hast delivered me from the strivings of the people; and thou hast made me the head of the heathen: a people whom I have not known shall serve me. As soon as they hear of me, they shall obey me: the strangers shall submit themselves unto me." Do you see, "As soon as they hear of me, they shall obey me" Look at the Psalms "And he hath put a new song in my mouth, even praise unto our God: many shall see it, and fear, and shall trust in the Lord." Do you see "he hath put a new song in my mouth" Lookat "many shall see it" every one is blind to the Grace of GOD. Now Look at, "By the word of the Lord were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth."
DO YOU SEE "all the host of them by the breath of his mouth" DO YOU UNDERSTAND "he hath put a new song in my mouth"

Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
Psa 19:8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
Psa 19:9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
Psa 19:10 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
Psa 19:11 Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.

lOOK AT "The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul" "By the word of the Lord were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth."
DO YOU SEE "all the host of them by the breath of his mouth" DO YOU UNDERSTAND "he hath put a new song in my mouth"

Isa 55:3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, the sure mercies of David.
Isa 55:4 Behold, I have given him for a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people.
Isa 55:5 Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the LORD thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee.
Isa 55:6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Isa 55:10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
Isa 55:12 For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.
Isa 55:13 Instead of the thorn shall come up the fir tree, and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree: and it shall be to the LORD for a name, for an everlasting sign that shall not be cut off.
NOW LOOK "Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, the sure mercies of David. Behold, I have given him for a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the peoplE.

I will leave you with these WORDS of wisdom, "A true witness delivereth souls: but a deceitful witness speaketh lies."

Psa 19:11 Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.

No shalom for you America.

Our country runs yours.

You idiot goyim don't read.

you don't think.

You're inferior in every way to us.

That's why our lobby dictates policy to your goyim leaders.

butterfly, that one is especially for you-

when i was a little girl, my little brother and i were fascinated by bugs full time- we found a gypsy tree moth resting (dead) against a tree, it was an enormous 6 inches wide and we donated it to the carnegie useum of natural history- we were so proud-
once we were looking at a moth and my moth(er) said to my lil bro- isnt that a nice little guy, or something.

he looked at us both and primly said- its a girl moth
we said, how do YOU know? (you smart little snot!) and he said as if talking to idiots, 'because it has feathery antennna'

thus started my love affair with moths, the dowdy underappreciated sister to the butterfly-

my mom put butterfly wings (predictably i snootily thought) on just about every painting she did- but i loved the humble moth.
just for giggles
peace

ive loved this poem for a long time

Background info: The narrator is a poet reincarnated in a cockroach's body.
He types by jumping on the keys of a typewriter, hence the lack of caps.
Knowing that helps :------------------------------

the lesson of the moth

i was talking to a moth
the other evening
he was trying to break into
an electric light bulb
and fry himself on the wires

why do you fellows
pull this stunt i asked him
because it is the conventional
thing for moths or why
if that had been an uncovered
candle instead of an electric
light bulb you would
now be a small unsightly cinder
have you no sense

plenty of it he answered
but at times we get tired
of using it
we get bored with the routine
and crave beauty
and excitement
fire is beautiful
and we know that if we get
too close it will kill us
but what does that matter
it is better to be happy
for a moment
and be burned up with beauty
than to live a long time
and be bored all the while
so we wad all our life up
into one little roll
and then we shoot the roll
that is what life is for
it is better to be a part of beauty
for one instant and then cease to
exist than to exist forever
and never be a part of beauty
our attitude toward life
is come easy go easy
we are like human beings
used to be before they became
too civilized to enjoy themselves

and before i could argue him
out of his philosophy
he went and immolated himself
on a patent cigar lighter
i do not agree with him
myself i would rather have
half the happiness and twice
the longevity

but at the same time i wish
there was something i wanted
as badly as he wanted to fry himself

archy

-- Don Marquis

apropos of nothing except that i love it

Two thousand years ago, Jesus pointed the way to heaven.

We've spent all this time since staring at his finger.

Ryan:
**I didn't say that one religion's "rule book" or another should be the standard for everyone. Never said anything of the sort. In a democracy, the will of the majority (particularly a large, consistent majority) is the efficient cause, the active agent, in decision-making. If they choose to make their decisions by one particular standard or another, why oughtn't they, in a democracy?**

If the majority wants decisions made based on a particualr relgiosn scriptures, when a country's constitution fprbids establishment of religion, then no, the majority doesn't get its way. Our constitution isn't just for the majority - it also functions to prevent minorities from being trampled by the majority.

**In as much as you live in a legal system based on the jurisprudential concept of equality before the law, you do, in point of fact, live in a legal system founded on ideas contained only within the Jewish (and then subsequently) Christian scriptures.**

Those ideas are not unique to religion in general or to one or two in particular. Atheists also hold them, ad do Pagans, as do Unitarian Universalists (only some of whom identify as Christians).

**It is a uniquely Jewish idea that every man, woman, and child was made by God in his "own image and likeness" and is thus endowed with an equally infinite dignity that is neither augmented nor undermined by riches, poverty, intelligence, or strength - nor even by religion. It is a uniquely Jewish idea that the law should address and defend that infinite dignity.**

Not really. I'm Pagan and I hold that belief.

**Why do you suppose that modern rights-based, more-or-less secular governments evolved from internal principles in the West, but are still stymied everywhere else in the world?**

Considering that both the Judaism and Christianity you seem to credit with being the basis for western civilization began in the Middle East, I'm not sure what you're getting at.

**
***A secular government does not in any way force people to espouse or practice atheism. It simply bases its laws on the comon good, rather than the scriptures of one particular religion. In a religiously plural society, it is the only form of government that stands any chance of working.***

Ok, again, I repeat the challenge to stop the tired old cant and actually to demonstrate it's truth, if it has any.**

Perhaps you'd care to tell me how exactly a secualr government forces people to become atheists, or at least to profess atheism? Nowhere is it written that you cannot worship the god(s), goddess(es), or object(s) of your choosing - only that you cannot force others to participate.

**Perhaps what is necessary is a clarification of terms. We might actually agree.

What do you mean by secular?
What do you mean by secular government?
What do you mean by "bases its laws on"?
What do you mean by common good?**

Secular - not relating to religious beliefs or practices

Secular government - government that does not incorporate religious dogma or theology into its legislative, executive, or judicial processes

Bases its laws on - wtf? One of the key foundational concepts of our constitution is equality (and in this country's inancy, some groups were more equal then others - white men were more equal than everyone else combined). We've progressed significantly since then towards the goal of true equality - we may actually achieve it someday.

Common good - I would think that would be self-explanatory. That which fosters the continuation and thriving of the country is good. That which damages it is not.

Shall I define "is" while I'm at it?

Lepidopteryx,

***Give me one good reason that one religion's rule book should be the standard for everyone, including those who don't practice that religion. This little Pagan wouldn't want to live under a legal system based on the Bible any more than a Christian would want to live under a legal system based on the Qu'ran.***

I didn't say that one religion's "rule book" or another should be the standard for everyone. Never said anything of the sort. In a democracy, the will of the majority (particularly a large, consistent majority) is the efficient cause, the active agent, in decision-making. If they choose to make their decisions by one particular standard or another, why oughtn't they, in a democracy? Doesn't the democracy begin to deteriorate when a small cadre of self-appointed (even elected) "leaders" beginning telling the majority how stupid they are and how they must listen to this little elite, or else they will surely go wrong?

In as much as you live in a legal system based on the jurisprudential concept of equality before the law, you do, in point of fact, live in a legal system founded on ideas contained only within the Jewish (and then subsequently) Christian scriptures. Hammurabi's Code, the Koran, Confucius' Analects (a truly noble system) and all the other ancient ethical standards ALL make distinctions between rich and poor, noble and common, and so on. Surely societies of Christians and Jews have degenerated to such stratification as well, where betters are held to lower and easier standards. But it is the uniquely Jewish idea that Moses, because better than the rest of Israel, should be punished more harshly for a lesser crime, so that a balance between social superior and inferior might be preserved. It is a uniquely Jewish idea that every man, woman, and child was made by God in his "own image and likeness" and is thus endowed with an equally infinite dignity that is neither augmented nor undermined by riches, poverty, intelligence, or strength - nor even by religion. It is a uniquely Jewish idea that the law should address and defend that infinite dignity.

Why do you suppose that modern rights-based, more-or-less secular governments evolved from internal principles in the West, but are still stymied everywhere else in the world?

***A secular government does not in any way force people to espouse or practice atheism. It simply bases its laws on the comon good, rather than the scriptures of one particular religion. In a religiously plural society, it is the only form of government that stands any chance of working.***

Ok, again, I repeat the challenge to stop the tired old cant and actually to demonstrate it's truth, if it has any.

Perhaps what is necessary is a clarification of terms. We might actually agree.

What do you mean by secular?
What do you mean by secular government?
What do you mean by "bases its laws on"?
What do you mean by common good?

**Secularists, please give us a model of a Church-State Separated Democracy that does not force atheism into a normative position against the will of the great majority...**

That's easy. In fact I'll give you two: the United States of America and Canada. No state religion (unlike most of the European democracies), everyone free to worship (or not) as they see fit according to the dictates of their own conscience. There is no official "normative position" on religion at all, except that the power of the State cannot be used to coerce anyone's belief.

Sounds pretty good to me...

Regards

A Hermit

Ryan Haber:

**Secularists, please give us a model of a Church-State Separated Democracy that does not force atheism into a normative position against the will of the great majority (80% in the US, about 90% worldwide) of people. Give us a sound philosophical basis to believe that it is sensible, and then give us evidence that it can work. Do so, and I will be your biggest advocate. I'll help make you king/queen/president/grand-poobah of it if you like. In the meantime, please simple stop with the tired old cant; currently prevailing jurisprudence is clearly not working well, but is patch-upon-patch over a garment that is more holes than cloth.**

A secular government does not in any way force people to espouse or practice atheism. It simply bases its laws on the comon good, rather than the scriptures of one particular religion. In a religiously plural society, it is the only form of government that stands any chance of working.

There are those who would like for it to still be a crime for consenting adults of the same gender to have sex with each other, not because such activity causes any harm to society at large, but simply because their holy book says it's icky.
There are those who would like to see contraceptives banned from the market, because their holy book says to be fruitful and multiply.
There are those who would make my practice of my religion a capital crime, not because my religious practices do any harm to anyone or anything, but because their holy book says that it's an abomination.
Those things happened even with separtion of church and state, becaues that separation was not properly maintained and enforced.

Give me one good reason that one religion's rule book should be the standard for everyone, including those who don't practice that religion. This little Pagan wouldn't want to live under a legal system based on the Bible any more than a Christian would want to live under a legal system based on the Qu'ran.

Chris Weitzel :
**... no matter what sort of God you believe in, no matter what your other ideas may be, no matter how many doubts you may have, it is awfully nice to think that, at the end of EVERYTHING, the all-powerful One is coming to us, to complete us.**

Not for me. I so much prefer my Creator/Creatrix from whom it is impossible for me to be separated. I am already complete in the here and now. I don't have to wait until after I die, or until after an global apocalypse for my completion.

**Even were I to be something other than a Christian at some point (which is hard to imagine, I admit), I believe I would always keep that sense of a Creator who cares enough to come to me and for me, and for us all.**

Actually, I think Christians pretty much have the lock on the Second Coming scenario. But if it makes you feel better, you're welcome to it.

Sistema:

Oh, great, so now atheists are terrorists, too? Delightful!

"The only church that enlightens me is the one that is being burned down."
Popular anarchist saying

Any one of those passages that says pray and you shall be heard...that good works are rewarded, etc. WHY? Because you learn very quickly how silly it is. What an empty promise is. And then you can be more wise about religion.
It's a sham. No?

Any one of those passages that says pray and you shall be heard...that good works are rewarded, etc. WHY? Because you learn very quickly how silly it is. What an empty promise is. And then you can be more wise about religion.

You know why they call it "organized religion"?

Because "organized crime" was already taken.

This blog should be called "On Make-Believe".

Brian Ray,

You interpret wrong. Look up the many meanings of ra' in Hebrew and you will find that the word "evil" has a broader sense of what you make it out to be.

Have a nice day.

"Its only people's games
you got to dodge,
and its alright ma
I'm only bleeding"

Bob Dylan

I believe in the creator. What I don't believe in is organized religion. Its organized to tell you what to do and what to believe. Its always run by some dude or group of dudes that don't really know any more than you do; they just think they do and they think they are justified in telling you all about it. Its a power trip. Beware! Its their games you've got to avoid! Any time you meet someone who wants to tell you all about god, quick, run in the opposite direction as fast as possible!

"Its only people's games
you got to dodge,
and its alright Ma
I'm only bleeding"

Bob Dylan

I believe in God, I just don't believe in organized religion. Organized religion is usually organized as a hierarchy, so there's some dude trying to tell you what to believe, what to do. This is ususally to promote his goals, not yours. The best plan is to not get involved. Its all a bunch of crap. Stay out of religion. You'll be a lot better off for it!

"Its only people's games
you got to dodge,
and its alright Ma
I'm only bleeding"

Bob Dylan

I believe in God, I just don't believe in organized religion. Organized religion is usually organized as a hierarchy, so there's some dude trying to tell you what to believe, what to do. This is ususally to promote his goals, not yours. The best plan is to not get involved. Its all a bunch of crap. Stay out of religion. You'll be a lot bettrer off for it!

"Human reality...suffers from the distance which separates us from the rest of the universe."

- Albert Camus

"Human reality...suffers from the distance which separates us from the rest of the universe."

- Albert Camus

Isaiah 45:7:

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

I interpret this as saying that God created both good and evil, and that Satan can be found in God's toolbox.

"Human reality...suffers from the distance which separates us from the rest of the universe."

- Albert Camus

St. Paul's description/prediction of the imminent second coming, i.e. 1 Thessalonians 4: 15-17, was a great way to get Gentiles to convert and give money to the cause but to say the least he was not much of a prophet.

Televangelists still use the description/prediction though to get "guilt-trip" donations.

Socrates: "I know you won't believe me, but the highest form of human excellence is to question oneself and others"

At the end of the Bible, after all that Armageddon stuff, at the end of everything, when the risen Christ is called, "Come, Lord Jesus!" He answers, "Surely, I am coming soon."

This is my favorite verse, not because of the sense of hard-won victory (which is nice) that has gone before. It is my favorite because no matter what sort of God you believe in, no matter what your other ideas may be, no matter how many doubts you may have, it is awfully nice to think that, at the end of EVERYTHING, the all-powerful One is coming to us, to complete us.

Even were I to be something other than a Christian at some point (which is hard to imagine, I admit), I believe I would always keep that sense of a Creator who cares enough to come to me and for me, and for us all.

Daniel,

I think you've put your finger on it: "multiple interpretations of reality."

Having thrown out transcendent views of reality, we are left with a host of competing ideologies and no way to critique them or to make them cohere with each other. Each ideology claims to have THE key to understanding reality (the economy, the libido, the will to power, frustration and isolation, race and nation, ethnicity, inter al.) - yet upon even partial implementation of any grand scheme based on any of theses 'keys', the whole thing gets very ugly very quickly.

What is needed is a renewal of philosophy. Philosophy (not as the Anglophones have reduced it to mere logic; nor as the Continentals have reduced it to mere reductionist deconstructivism) is intended to help us understand the world. The lack of understanding of ANYTHING in the world is directly related to the relegation of philosophy to the woodpile of "abstract and useless things" (by which is meant, something that won't bring home much of a paycheck).

I humbly propose as a solution to much of the chaos in the world, beyond the calm that you call for (and the peace-and-quiet required for that), a careful study of Plato, Aristotle, and Thomas. The three of them have in common primarily a conviction that there is a reality that we each share in, and that it can to a wide extent be known and communicated. They propose some categories for thought that can help us think about EVERYTHING precisely because they don't claim to help us in-and-of-themselves to know ANYTHING. Their thought has self-implied and accepted limits that make them nearly unlimited in application. These three philosopher's thinking is thus exactly the opposite of the Moderns, who claim that by a single key they can help us understand EVERYTHING and in the end, tell us very little useful about anything at all. The Moderns deny any restriction on the ability of their 'key' to explain anything, and so their keys become (at least in their lands) useful for almost nothing.

The ideal-realist philosophy of Plato and the realist philosophy/ies of Aristotle and Thomas are virtually designed to integrate and make sense out of all the different (and apparently competing) kinds of knowledge running around in the world today.

--

I also like your challenge to secularists. Secularists, please give us a model of a Church-State Separated Democracy that does not force atheism into a normative position against the will of the great majority (80% in the US, about 90% worldwide) of people. Give us a sound philosophical basis to believe that it is sensible, and then give us evidence that it can work. Do so, and I will be your biggest advocate. I'll help make you king/queen/president/grand-poobah of it if you like. In the meantime, please simple stop with the tired old cant; currently prevailing jurisprudence is clearly not working well, but is patch-upon-patch over a garment that is more holes than cloth.

--

Daniel, on a personal note, I am sorry about your friend having moved away. Recently, I have lost some friends too, just due to changing life situation. I have been asking God to accept the pain it gives me as a little gift for Him to use as He will to help make me and others better people for it. God bless you - I'll pray that it goes more easily. My email address is withouthavingseen at gmail, if you ever want to commiserate.

The Good Words/Passages were articulated via reason and common sense by the ancients. These Words of Wisdom were simply repeated with each major race and religion. Unfortunately the Words were eventually attributed to embellished men (Moses, Jesus, Mohammed, Joe Smith) in most cases as a means of profiteering as noted by the contemporary billions of dollars owned and controlled by the Mormon, Christian, Jewish and Moslem religions. It is time to get our money back!!!!!

victoria says:

"personally, i think islam is the new frontier of social change-"

you may find sheriff will kane waiting for you. americans have a history of not retreating passively.

"Be still and know that I am God." Psalm 46:10 because I have a very difficult time being still and waiting for guidance from the Holy Spirit.

Here's one I wish the Bible thumpers and preachers of hellfire and brimstone would read and reflect on: "Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you. Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. We have different gifts, according to the grace given us." Romans 12:3-6

I Corinthians 13 -- but remember, the Greek is "agape" which is self-giving, sacrificial love.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it." John 1:1-5

"Those who believe in the Lotus Sutra are as if in winter, which never fails to turn into spring." From the Major Writings of Nichiren Daishonin, Vol. I.

Because over and over again this has been my experience in practicing Nichiren Buddhism, that I have been able to use the practice of chanting Nam myo-ho ren-ge kyo to transform hopeless situations into hopeful, even victorious ones.

Every "winter" I have experienced, however cold and dark, with my practice, has transformed into a bright, warm spring. I feel so fortunate to have encountered this Buddhism in this lifetime.

no, thats just redundant- i can see how it would be a literal oxymoron- you see, i had difficulty finding contradiction in that characterization (but i forget sometime that only i am in my own head- not exactly a rousing bid for sanity, is it.

hello chip, i think wet rain would be an oxymoron-
since mr ingersoll is a 19th century figure, it might not have been possible for him to defiantly address the status quo without deconstructing it.

but it's stil that same old oneupsmanship to claim that if one doesnt know something, no one else can.
to know the unknowable meant for me- to know what seems unknowable to mr ingersoll.
not that it cannot be known, just that it requires a great deal of conscious effort.

he made a judgement based on opinion, and then you equate that with insanity-
i think they are unequal observations not so readily compared.
he chose for whatever reason to turn his prodigious energies elsewhere.

ive certainly read alot of humanists and philosophers who had something interesting and fresh to say- (although it is only in retrospect that i realized how they'd been defined).

now for instance, liberated suggests that the foundation of my thinking (or religion) is flawed so it would follow that any reasoning process derived from that would be corrupt at the core-

in all sincerity- any reactionary statements without adding new creative crafting of solutions are a dead end circle eating upon itself-

it seems a given in 2007 that intellectual freedom be the norm- even if that freedom is used to witness to wisdom of the giants whose shoulders we stand on.

actually, it's quite popular to be a 'freethinker' and react against christianity- there seems no real conflict especially.

its not like homeland security is pounding down the doors of atheists-
and i dont really see any censoring on these boards.

personally, i think islam is the new frontier of social change- and when it's given a minute or two to flower unobstructed in (to quote eric cartman) the sweet air of freedom, it may surprise the staus quo.

thanks for the good thoughts

yours for rhyme and reason

A reverie that approaches meditation -- FIUS

Reflections on a Gift of Watermelon Pickle Received from a Friend Called Felicity

During that summer
When unicorns were still possible;
When the purpose of knees
Was to be skinned;
When shiny horse chestnuts
(Hollowed out
Fitted with straws
Crammed with tobacco
Stolen from butts
In family ashtrays)
Were puffed in green lizard silence
While straddling thick branches
Far above and away
From the softening effects
Of civilization;

During that summer--
Which may never have been at all;
But which has become more real
Than the one that was--
Watermelons ruled.

Thick imperial slices
Melting frigidly on sun-parched tongues
Dribbling from chins;
Leaving the best part,
The black bullet seeds,
To be spit out in rapid fire
Against the wall
Against the wind
Against each other;

And when the ammunition was spent,
There was always another bite:
It was a summer of limitless bites,
Of hungers quickly felt
And quickly forgotten
With the next careless gorging.

The bites are fewer now.
Each one is savored lingeringly,
Swallowed reluctantly.

But in a jar put up by Felicity,
The summer which maybe never was
Has been captured and preserved.
And when we unscrew the lid
And slice off a piece
And let it linger on our tongue:
Unicorns become possible again.

John Tobias

To Ryan Haber. I suppose what I was trying to get at is that if we are honest we are in something of a middle ground whereby we are reluctant to believe things without any proof (leaning toward the scientific) but we really have no methodology (again scientific) to demonstrate the truth or falsity of ultimates such as God or reincarnation, etc. Therefore we are in a hypothetical existence...I wish I had been clearer in what I wrote earlier--lately I have been sloppy, depressed (a friend moved away--also I have little computer time now). I suppose what I wanted to say is that a man such as Newton leaned toward not believing in things without any proof--and in fact expected proof to be more than mathematics,--expected proof to be by experimental evidence--but he himself ultimately was forced to turn back precisely to God because man can demonstrate only so much by mathematics or experimental evidence. Our position today is such that we are reluctant to believe things without proof, but our methods are very limited for giving proof and we are therefore in a very uncertain hypothetical existence with multiple interpretations of reality. And the difference between atheists and the religious as I see it is that the religious of course have their faith without proof, and the atheists are reluctant to believe anything without proof but are therefore in the preposterous situation of saying things like we can be good or intelligent or inspired or artistic in a world without a source of such at least superior to us, etc. In other words atheists ward off anything without proof of existence, but then what is existence to such a person but an extreme denial of imaginative possibility? Something of an example of what I mean of the latter is Susan Jacoby on this very question picking through the world of poetry in search of poetry not inspired by God, just chopping away try to salvage poetry which bolsters an atheistic point of view. A person so cold as to do that in my book probably has no real sense of aesthetics to begin with. Picking and choosing what to be moved by! Reminds me of religious people forcing themselves not to take pleasure in anything which hints of homosexuality! All this cutting and chopping, forcing this here and that there! All crippled minds! What I find most absurd about atheists is if they want to convince people of their point of view all they have to do is give us please a conception of state not only clearly separated from church but pure state of man separated from God--pure state of man separated from God in all aspects (political, economic, artistic, etc.). Just please design us a state without God and project the course of such for five hundred years or so so we can see what we are walking into without God. Is that so damn difficult? All we get from atheists is the same critiques of religion over and over again and all this talk of separating church from state, but we never get a clear definition of state separated from church definitively. Please Hitchens, Dawkins, Harris and Dennett write books describing state of man in every aspect clearly separated from God--give us something to go toward if state collapsed into church is to be so despised.

What I was really getting at is that man is now reluctant to believe in things without any proof but his imagination continues to throw out fancies beyond his capacity to prove or disprove (scientific methodology) and we have the religious trying of course to collapse everything back into religion and atheists desperately trying to ward off everything not provable, but alas for atheists the methodology of math or experimental evidence is lagging more and more behind every day and man's imagination is conceiving more and more hypotheticals such as God, or Matrix reality, or reincarnation, or (etc. etc.) every day. We are threatened with entering a world where we have the religious shouting at atheists about angels and the atheists stomping on the ground and saying the dirt is all there is and not even being able to replicate a piece of dirt to conclusively prove to us dirt is indeed dirt...

The only sane people will be those capable of calm in a world of multiple interpretations of reality.

And Victoria,

Now that you have been given a good dose of Ingersoll, how about the Five F Rule of Life i.e. "First Find the Flaws and then Fix the Foundations" and in your case have you identified the flaws in Islam??? And how are you fixing them???

Victoria, the insanity comment was definitely provocative, and perhaps unfair, but I left that part in because it isn't just Ingersoll's humanism that I admire, but also his defiance, and his willingness to make such bold and defiant statements publicly (especially in the late 1800's to an audience of thousands). I believe he was using the term as a rhetorical figure of speech, not a statement of empirical fact. My apologies if you took offense.

I will say, though, that I can and do respect people without respecting their beliefs. The inability to do so is the primary reason why we still kill each other over intangible ideas and demand that dissenters remain in oppressive silence.

I submit that your claim (or anyone else's) of "knowing the unknowable" (a rather humorous oxymoron) is no more reasonable a statement than Ingersoll's (or anyone else's) claim that such thinking is insane.

Beliefs don't exist in a vacuum. They are both a reaction to and in opposition of all competing beliefs. Polite equivocation doesn't change that, which is why it's so vital that we get over expecting people to respect our beliefs and instead focus on respecting each other's humanity.

Besides, some of my best friends are insane.

well that's where it ceases to be humanist and gets into the competition-
it takes some arrogance to presume what another knows or does not-
the interference that was rebelled against coming from the religious quarter, is now being imposed on the religious quarter.

in all fairness- we speak for ourselves and dont presume to speak for others.
that is where it goes beyond waht is necessary t communicate and goes from the realm of intellectual conjecture (as only opinions can ever be) and becomes as forceful in its insistence on its own ideals as those it started out being offended by.

how about this-
i respect your views and conversely, you respect mine.

it requires mutual maturity and civility on both our parts.

when you fast, and it drives you insane, come back and share it with us.
(as youre certainly able to do)

but until then, its all subjective isnt it?

his emphasis on claiming to know what he cannot, is just as distastefully arrogant as the religious who make the same claim.

the claim that 'extremely religious' are intolerant is also bunk.

im extremely religious, but i dont find it necessary to tear anyone else down to prosper.

fair is fair

if you need to be more right than me or anyone else- go right ahead- no skin off my nose.

Victoria, re " mr ingersoll is talented at thinking, and good for him.
but he stretches it when he attempts to think for and comment on what others experience.

it takes patience and discipline, focus and concentration to know the unknowable-
no matter how long you try you cannot think your way into it.

now the first part was noble ad beautiful.
the second part was unneccesary."

The second part was absolutely necessary, especially in a historical context. Until very recently in human history, the claim that morality, beauty, inspiration, and happiness in no way depend on the existence of god was considered a blasphemy punishable by imprisonment or execution. It still is in many parts of the world. Ingersoll's sentiments are as much a response to prevailing attitudes as an affirmation of his own. Live and let live isn't exactly a common sentiment among the very religious beyond the last two hundred years, or even today for that matter. To paraphrase a country song, Ingersoll was humanist when humanism wasn't cool. It still isn't, to the great shame of humanity.

To sum up, I offer you one more of his quotes...

"The agnostic does not simply say, 'l do not know.' He goes another step, and he says, with great emphasis, that YOU do not know."

THe Holy Bible has many scriptures that are favorite to me. In that I am a wellness/fitness professional one of my favorite verses is from the book of Timothy Chapter Four verses 7 & 8. "Physical exercise is of some value but spititual exercise is much more important becasue is promises a reward in both this life and the next."

I have writen an article on what spiritual exercises mean to me, from a Christian perspective. It can be found at this link: http://www.faithandhealthconnection.org/uploads/An_Intro_To_Spiritual_Exercises_Feb_Mar_2007.pdf

Hope all readers of this entry have a great day!

THe Holy Bible has many scriptures that are favorite to me. In that I am a wellness/fitness professional one of my favorite verses is from the book of Timothy Chapter Four verses 7 & 8. "Physical exercise is of some value but spititual exercise is much more important becasue is promises a reward in both this life and the next."

I have writen an article on what spiritual exercises mean to me, from a Christian perspective. It can be found at this link: http://www.faithandhealthconnection.org/uploads/An_Intro_To_Spiritual_Exercises_Feb_Mar_2007.pdf

Hope all readers of this entry have a great day!

i really have to question the source of mr ingersoll's information.
it is certainly not from personal experience he speaks but an opinion, which is fine we all have them.

but suggesting that fasting results in insanity is quite overblown.

fasting deepens our compassion- it makes us stop and be conscious of our appetites.
being conscious is good.

mr ingersoll is talented at thinking, and good for him.
but he stretches it when he attempts to think for and comment on what others experience.

it takes patience and discipline, focus and concentration to know the unknowable-
no matter how long you try you cannot think your way into it.

now the first part was noble ad beautiful.
the second part was unneccesary.

why do people feel they must deconstruct another to validate their own thoughts?

the thoughts themselves were worthy by themself.
coupled with the condescension in the second paragraph, they sort of invalidate the whole.

this is the amazing thing i notice in these discussions.

there is a competition to prove superiority.

the non-believers want to claim intellectual superiority over the ignorant believers.

the believers want to claim moral and spiritual superiority over the morally bankrupt believers.
(for any who read this quickly and misunderstand- these are dramatic illustrations, not judgements about them)
they both attack each others systems believing it proves their own superiority.

it only proves their own ego-driven desire to be the right one.

i dont have to step on someone else to be elevated.

peace all

Thanks for the Ingersoll quotes Chip; you're right he's a sadly overlooked American thinker.

Regards

A Hermit

A few more Robert Ingersoll quotes...

"I want to do what little I can to make my country truly free, to broaden the intellectual horizon of our people, to destroy the prejudices born of ignorance and fear, to do away with the blind worship of the ignoble past, with the idea that all the great and good are dead, that the living are totally depraved, that all pleasures are sins, that sighs and groans are alone pleasing to God, that thought is dangerous, that intellectual courage is a crime, that cowardice is a virtue, that a certain belief is necessary to secure salvation, that to carry a cross in this world will give us a palm in the next, and that we must allow some priest to be the pilot of our souls."

"What is it to be spiritual? To recognize the finer harmonies of conduct -- to live to the ideal -- to separate the incidental, the evanescent, from the perpetual -- to be enchanted with the perfect melody of truth -- open to the influences of the artistic, the beautiful, the heroic -- to shed kindness as the sun sheds light -- to recognize the good in others, and to include the world in the idea of self -- that is to be spiritual.

There is nothing spiritual in the worship of the unknown and unknowable, in the self-denial of a slave at the command of a master whom he fears. Fastings, prayings, mutilations, kneelings, and mortification are either the result of, or result in, insanity."

"THE REAL BIBLE.

For thousands of years men have been writing the real Bible, and it is being written from day to day, and it will never be finished while man has life. All the facts that we know, all the truly recorded events, all the discoveries and inventions, all the wonderful machines whose wheels and levers seem to think, all the poems, crystals from the brain, flowers from the heart, all the songs of love and joy, of smiles and tears, the great dramas of Imagination's world, the wondrous paintings, miracles of form and color, of light and shade, the marvelous marbles that seem to live and breathe, the secrets told by rock and star, by dust and flower, by rain and snow, by frost and flame, by winding stream and desert sand, by mountain range and billowed sea.

All the wisdom that lengthens and ennobles life, all that avoids or cures disease, or conquers pain -- all just and perfect laws and rules that guide and shape our lives, all thoughts that feed the flames of love the music that transfigures, enraptures and enthralls the victories of heart and brain, the miracles that hands have wrought, the deft and cunning hands of those who worked for wife and child, the histories of noble deeds, of brave and useful men, of faithful loving wives, of quenchless mother-love, of conflicts for the right, of sufferings for the truth, of all the best that all the men and women of the world have said, and thought and done through all the years.

These treasures of the heart and brain -- these are the Sacred Scriptures of the human race."

It's a great pity that Ingersoll is so little known in this century. In his day, thousands would turn out to hear him speak, paying as much as a dollar for the privilege. An enormous sum at the time. His orations would last as long as three hours, recited from memory, never from notes. If anyone ever invents a time machine, attending one of his lectures would be at the top of my to-do list. I'd like to shake his hand and say thank you. How terribly sad that free thought was embraced more widely nearly 200 years ago than it is today. He must be rolling in his grave.

Daniel,

I like your analysis of the abandonment of traditional and modern attempts to solve the problems of human existence (meaning, suffering, et al.) yielding to an increasingly frenetic search for solutions. It has a real ring of truth to me.

Part of the problem of knowledge that has led postmodern people to abandon not only traditional solutions (religious) and modern ones (natural sciences) is this, I think: that postmodern people don't know or understand as much as we think we do. People quote Science Magazine as a sort of gospel without realizing the limits of Science; they quote Crossan (here, at least) without realizing the limits of the Historical-Critical Analysis of texts; they quote the Scriptures (as geology textbooks, no less!) without realizing their limitations. We think we know more than we actually do.

In daily jargon, even, this trend is deeply imbedded. We think of "cave-man" or "Neanderthal" as being stupid and brutal, so much so that we use the terms interchangeably. Why? We can't quite say. Perhaps because they didn't have central heating and AC? Maybe because they came before us - after all, if we all know more than our parents, how much more than our distant ancestors?! But in reality all we really know about cave-men is they liked to paint in their homes pictures of wildlife, and that they knew to cook the food they hunted with simple weapons.

When we come to the limitations of some source of knowledge, we feel cheated and lied to. Maybe their proponents had suggested that the discipline in question (a religion, a natural science, or what have you) would yield infinite fruit. Maybe we simply latched onto the discipline so hoping. Feeling cheated, we give it up entirely as rubbish.

In point of fact, if we had realized from the start that religion wasn't supposed to answer questions about dinosaurs and orbital paths; that wasn't supposed biology wasn't supposed to explain the meaning of our lives; that physics could never tell us our place in the moral order because it describes our place in the solar system; then we wouldn't have felt so cheated by the shortcomings of each. We would have known that each has its place and purpose, and been content to let them serve their roles, and to try to integrate together what each has to say.

But that sort of work is complicated and takes time and serious thinking, and we tend to want simple, quick, and easy solutions. We then discard our simple, quick, and easy solutions because they do not help us navigate a complicated, painstaking, and difficult world.

Your post is really provocative in the best sense. I'm not sure if we agree entirely or what, but am very intrigued.

Victoria,

Take a look at your posts to me. What are you saying? Really.. Confused or in denial?

Lovely prayer, but I must wonder what she would say is waiting for those who incite and encourage suicide and murder in a child's life.

I'm so sorry. As long as I live I won't look away and I won't be quiet.

And BTW: GAZA ER = hellhole telling its story of hatred and violence. But its certainly NOT the only hellhole on earth.

Best Wishes.

timothy- that's the point- this is for once a question about what we are FOR-

theres enough places to say what were AGAINST

for instance, i'll continue

this is a prayer ive loved for years for its selfless simplicity

its from rabia of basra

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"O Allah! If I worship You for fear of Hell, burn me in Hell,

and if I worship You in hope of Paradise, exclude me from Paradise.

But if I worship You for Your Own sake,

grudge me not Your everlasting Beauty.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

the devotee as true lover

i imagine even people who dont believe in heaven or hell can see the purity of intention here
to love for the sake of loving

peace

Victoria,

Please take a moment to review my first post. I have taken a stand against suicide, the murder of innocents, and teaching children these acts are exalted.

Now reread your post to me: "palestine children.." Now. whose agenda is corrupted?
Have you never heard of the Tamil Tigers? Stop airing your own prejudices -they have nothing to do with me. They only tell what is in your heart.

I notice you did not take the time to speak for LIFE.

Peace sister.

are you seeing any condoning of such things?

what is in your eyes to see that?

how is condemning the killing of children translating to children killing others in your reasoning process?

so where do you think the conscience of Jesus(ata) would find itself here?

i do not think Jesus(ata) would be proud to see his home turned into massive refugee camps-
as a matter of fact- since you're responding in real time- in 8 minutes on pbs is a special on hospitals in the gaza strip.

timothy-
dont preach love with a corrupted agenda-
stay with love, and pull the plank from your own eyes before you feign concern for a people while maligning them at the same time

everyone else here is using this forum to express what appeals to their higher natures, not use it as an excuse for thinly veiled prejudices.

theres plenty of other places for those unworthy thoughts

let us have our moment of inspiration with each other

I've been reading here long enough to know you have spoken against suicide bombing and the reprehensible act of cruelty in teaching a child this is their duty. Are you recanting?

Peace sister.

you are right timothy, the palestinian children have suffered into old age and watched their children and grandchildren suffer in their turns.

the protection of the israeli military machine has been dealing out death and worldwide destruction long enough.

Jesus(ata) was a palestinian. who do you think he would advocate for today?

We are living in times when suicide and the murder of innocents is exalted and taught to children. We must stand againt this cult of death. So I favor this old hymn:

"Weak and wounded sinner,
Lost and left to die,
O, raise your head for LOVE is passing by,

Come to Jesus,
Come to Jesus,
Come to Jesus and LIVE.

Now your burden's lifted,
And carried far away,
And precious Blood has washed away the stain... so

Sing to Jesus ,
Sing to Jesus ,
Sing to Jesus and LIVE.

And like a newborn baby,
Don't be afraid to crawl,
And remember when you walk sometimes we fall... so

Fall on Jesus,
Fall on Jesus,
Fall on Jesus and LIVE.

Sometimes the way is lonely,
And steep and filled with pain,
So if your sky is dark and pours the rain... then

Cry to Jesus,
Cry to Jesus,
Cry to Jesus and LIVE.

O, and when the love spills over,
And music fills the night,
And when you can't contain your joy inside... then

Dance for Jesus,
Dance for Jesus,
Dance for Jesus and LIVE.

And with your final heartbeat,
Kiss the world goodbye,
Then go in peace, and laugh on glory's side... and

Fly to Jesus,
Fly to Jesus,
Fly to Jesus and LIVE."

Komm zu Jesus
Sung by Lena Frank (Netherlands).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-JiW5pLoZU