Pope and Ecumenism

How does the Catholic church strike me?

The Bible gives my answer at Matthew 7:15-20: “Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to YOU in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. By their fruits YOU will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? Likewise every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit; a good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, neither can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. Every tree not producing fine fruit gets cut down and thrown into the fire. Really, then, by their fruits YOU will recognize those [men].”

What is the fruitage of the Catholic church?

1. WAR

By contrast, the Bible says: “If anyone makes the statement: ‘I love God,’ and yet is hating his brother, he is a liar.” (1 John 4:20) Jesus even said: “Continue to love your enemies.” (Matthew 5:44)

2. SPREADING FALSE DOCTRINE

The Catholic church teaches that the soul or spirit is some invisible part of a human that survives the death of the physical body. By means of this teaching, this religion exploits its members, charging money to pray for departed souls. However, the Bible teaches a different doctrine. “The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.” (Ezekiel 18:4) “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all.” (Ecclesiastes 9:5) Jesus taught that the dead will be resurrected—an unnecessary action if humans had an immortal soul. (John 11:11-25)

3. TOLERATING IMMORAL SEX
The Catholic church that condemn immorality have tolerated religious leaders who have sexually abused children. They have also tolerated fornication among their members. What, though, does the Bible teach? It plainly states: “Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men . . . will inherit God’s kingdom.” (1 Corinthians 6:9, 10)
How can you identify “true” religion? The same scripture applies. Matthew 7:20 “Really, then, by their fruits YOU will recognize those [men].”

What is the fruitage of “true” religion?
1. PRACTICING LOVE
True worshippers are “no part of the world,” are not divided by race or culture, and display ‘love among themselves.’ (John 13:35; 17:16; Acts 10:34, 35) Rather than killing one another, they are willing to die for one another.—1 John 3:16.
2. TRUSTING GOD’S WORD
Instead of teaching “tradition” and “commands of men as doctrines,” true religion bases its doctrine on God’s Word, the Bible. (Matthew 15:6-9) Why? Because “all Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight.”—2 Timothy 3:16.
3. STRENTHENING FAMILIES AND UPHOLDING HIGH MORAL STANDARDS
True religion trains husbands to ‘love their wives as their own bodies,’ helps wives to develop ‘deep respect for their husbands,’ and teaches children to ‘be obedient to their parents.’ (Ephesians 5:28, 33; 6:1) In addition, those entrusted with positions of authority must have exemplary morals.—1 Timothy 3:1-10.
Does any religion meet these standards?

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ALL MISCONCEPTIONS AND FALSE MEANINGS ARE ANSWERED:

1-www.irf.net/irf/faqonislam/index.htm
2-www.islamalways.com/
3-www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/
4-www.jamaat.net/deedat.htm
5-www.islamtomorrow.com/yusuf.asp

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Useful site. Thanks.

Useful site. Thanks.

The question asked is "How does the Pope's reiteration that the church of Christ exists fully only in the Catholic Church strike you? How will this affect ecumenical relations? Does anyone care?"

To answer the third question first, yes I do seriously care. As to the second question, my answer is: I really do not care how or to what extent ecumenical relations are affected. I see ecumenism as a counterfeit "unity", or should I say, a "hodge-podge" or syncretism of religions, leading to no good. And as to the first question, I find the pope's statement quite revelatory.

As leader of the larget counterfeit Christian faith, statements of this sort are to be expected. Roman Catholicism (RC) to its core is antichristian and heretical. Comparison of RC with the the faith defined in the Scriptures yields no similarities. There has been whole-sale departure from "the faith once delivered to the saints" over the centuries of church history.

Jesus is supposed to be Lord in that faith, but in practice, it is the pope who is receiving all of the glory. To them, the Catholic Church is the Kingdom of God. But in the Bible, Jesus, as the Son of Man, is coming back to earth, and will establish the Kingdom (to the nation of Israel), which leaves no room for any pope (or Antichrist, for that matter).

So the pope can say whatever he will. He does not have long to say it, though. Jesus is coming...

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You Crazy Guys n Gals,
It's insupportable: The idea that some dude that had some good ideas that people remembered could cause so many useless deaths. That dude being Jesus. I say Hitler is a close second to getting the award for the most destructive character in human history. Look at you Christians fighting everyone with your ideas about being all righteous while it really just about oil money and getting big SUV's with shiny wheels.
I liked the way the Nazi's stole the riches of Europe and ran off to South America, they just were following the example of the Christian Church that was well established since the 1600's when the Spaniard commited their genocide in those regions under the banner of Christ. It's a piggy religion that makes slaves of entire races. That's what the Pope stands for.
His word is the word of the worst that humanity can muster from the deepest regions of it's collective colon.
Thank's for considering my purely scientific analysis.
Get it? Poop, pope, colon, anal. Flush it.
I'm not talking about Atheism, I'm saying flush it all.

A Hermit:

I resemble that remark, and had to laugh :-)

First of all, many people have neglected to do a little research. The statement given by the Pope was most likely said, because of two things. The first Christian church that was established was the Catholic church. Also, the word Catholic is derived from the greek word katholikos. Katholikos means universal, or general, so when the Pope made this statement he could have been taking this into concideration.

I will say that i am not exactly supportive of the statement; however, the Pope, and the Catholic church have their reasons for the claim.

And for the people that claim to be good Christians, no matter the church they belong to, must remember every virtue that their church tried to instil into them. The first is the golden rule, "do onto others as you would have them do onto you," also church leaders try to encourage tolorence. You can be a Christian without the golden rule, and without tolorence; however, you cannot be a good Christian. For people that are not tolorant, please don't back your anger with religious facts, because you are making everyone with similar beliefs seem to be hate mongers.

Very, very amateur christian soccerer. I like to hit the ball specially with my feet. Perhaps European blood.

Well. Years ago I was a christian soccerer.

To James Macdonald, 20 July, 2007'

I am an christian conservative and I could not have said it better.

Cliff:

Just wanted to say, MYSELF as a Christian am totally against your comments. If you are a real Christian (and just not someone who doesn't like Christians and decided to post something negative so everyone could think you were a Christian saying bad things) you would know that that is not of God.

Yes, Allah is not the true God and that is what we CHristians have been taught and Jesus always taught about false gods and prophets. But I would never tell any Muslim that your people are bombing people and don't care. There are good kind-hearted people in every religion and even those that don't have religion. So the fact remains that we are to Love all of God's Creations, we were all created by the same God/ The Creator God. So therefore we should love one another. However, I do not have to agree with the Muslims or their faith. But I would never say I wanted to shoot them. That just sounds exactly like the so called "Christian" KKK of the old days. Saying they were Christians and then shooting all black people and hanging them or whipping them or enslaving them. That wasn't of God nor did Jesus die on the Cross for that Junk. It also sounds a little like the Nazi regime calling themselves men of faith and killing all of the Jews. Hmmm not the Jesus I know. Tell me how many people did Jesus kill again? If I recall correctly when Peter sliced the soldiers ear off when they came to get Jesus, Jesus healed the man and his ear was put back on. He was an enemy of Jesus (according to the bible) but Jesus loved him enough to heal is wounds. Hmmm, I think you have it twisted Mr. Cliff.

Ummm...Cliff??

Are you sure you are a Christian? Kind of hateful words there coming from someone who professes Jesus. You know Jesus...the guy who said to love your enemy?

There will be no progress until all faiths are tolerant of others' beliefs and accept others' faiths as alternative paths to salvation. All monotheistic religions preach of the presence of one supreme being so if everyone's religious foundation is the same, why fight about how to be one with God?

Hypothetically speaking, if I am born in India and believe in the existence of God having no ties to Catholocism, or Judaism, or Islam, or Buddhism because of physical distance from the centers of those religions, how can anyone tell me that my beliefs are incorrect?

The bottom line is, anyone who professes that they are right and others are incorrect has a myopic and flawed view of the purpose of religion and a self-centered view of their place in the universe. What God created is far too grand and is way beyond the scope of our imaginations. For anyone to believe that there is only one way to achieve spirituality is nothing short of being narrow-minded.

That doesn't make any sense. I know the Pope believes that partiality of Christ is represented in the other denominations. Well, what is part of infinity? Christ is present in the church or it isn't. It's fully in catholics and no where else or Christ is fully in his followers, be them catholic or not.

Anon
There's a good one going on in the "Muslims Speak Out" section if you can stand some ranting and raving in the comments section.
Said ranting and raving is further proof, to me, that we will never have peace as long as humans indulge their compulsion to put others into neat categories and condemn all other groups besides their own.

It is my belief that religion has caused most of the problems we face. Who knows who is right? It would be nice if god had just given man common sence and not the power to think. We would all be better off it the was only one religion then there wouldn't ba so much anger between our religions. That said, God Bless You All Amen

Cliff,
One word - Lithium.

O.K. Washington Post.
I think it's time to post another question. Haven't you all come up with anything else to talk about. The Pope is NOT the greatest person of faith. Let's be open-minded and search for other topics of Faith now.

Thank you

From reading the comments here, I can only conclude that the effects of relativism are stronger than I thought.

Humanity forbid that there is ONE path and ONE truth. Isn't it more comforting to believe that there are many paths and all are equally justified as long as they confirm to our collective attitudes that comprise the terms "right action" and "right belief".

Also, I was wondering if anyone else noticed the vitriol and blatant anti-Catholicism present here. And if you didn't, maybe you should think about that.

The sight if Moslems celebrating the attack of 9-11 infuriated me. I'm glad I'm a Christian. In the opinion of this proud American the best moslem is the one I've just shot dead.
When the tsunami struck southeast Asia a couple of years ago Christians and Jews were helping the victims. Moslems were out setting bombs and causing problems.
The moslem god Allah does not exist. The prophet Mohammed was a liar and the Koran is a piece of trash and a book of falsehoods.
Moslems should be exterminated like the vermin they are. While the rest of the world is trying to make things better moslems are out killing inocent people or trying to force their oppression on the world.

Jidhadist kill in allah's name....catholics' (crusades) killed in god's name....the real
God said to love, He gave us His only Son so
that we could enjoy eternity & examples of loving others....not killing/judging others

More biblical contradiction:
Divorce is never permissible.
Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery. -- Mark 10:11

Whosoever putteth away his wife and marrieth another, committeth adultery. -- Luke 16:18

Only when the wife is unfaithful
Whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery. -- Matthew 5:32

Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery. -- Matthew 19:9

When the 'unbelieving' partner chooses to leave
But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases. -- 1 Corinthinians 7:15

When the husband is displeased with his wife
When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife. -- Deuteronomy 24:1-2

Ol Hippie --

This was red-lettered, too:

"Jesus saith to him: If thou wilt be perfect, go sell what thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me."

Narrows the field even further.

There is absolutely no doubt that the Pope is correct. I was raised as a Baptist, but became an atheist in my early teens. One of the reasons for my decision was that it became obvious to me that religion seperated people more than it unified them. Further, it seemed that even the most devout believers "cherry picked" the scriptures to condem others while allowing themselves to remain pious. The "cherry picking" that proves the Pope was right in this case is divorce. In Mark 16:18, Jesus clearly says, "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery." And it was written in red, so you know it was important. Ipso facto, if your church allows divorce, it is not a "true" Christian church.

Pretty much narrows the field, eh?

"Man is the religious animal. He is the only religious animal. He is the only animal that has the True Religion –- several of them. He is the only animal that loves his neighbor as himself and cuts his throat, if his theology isn't straight. He has made a graveyard of the globe in trying his honest best to smooth his brother's path to happiness and heaven." -- Mark Twain

So it's some sort of big surprise, some sort of outrage that a religion would claim truth for itself? There are thousands of religions encompassing tens of thousands of gods in the span of history. They all claim truth for themselves. That's what religions do. That's what their witch doctors do.

Go out and start one sometime -- you'll find that it's a prerequisite.

I just visited the Vatican City and saw the most impressive thing I have ever seen that was constructed by mankind, St Peter's Cathedral. Money was no object. Many different generations added their part to it while they were alive. Some sculptures were so beautiful. They moved me spiritually like no others have ever done before. I almost wanted to convert to Catholicism...almost. On the floor of the church were markings listing the length of the next 19 other churches in size. They were put there to clearly point out to the visitor how much larger this church is in comparison. On the steps out front of the cathedral were a number of Italia's poor and elderly begging for their survival. I was struck by the hypocracy of us all. It really is simple. The only way to the father is through the son. Either you have or have not excepted what he did on the cross as your sacrifice to eradicate your sins. If you have, then your life from that point forward reflects that simple truth. When you fall short and you will, that you admit it, repent for it and give life your best shot again from that point forward. It isn't about Catholics or Lutherans or Baptists. It is all about Jesus, period. Look through the mirage of mankind and make your own decision before it is eternally too late.

Here's what happens:
People find divisions, be it one religion versus another or oil versus corn.
We've seen the black and white and all the grey.
No matter what happens in the long run, it's all about feeling good about ourselves and disliking those that aren't just the same way we love ourselves.
Religion and politics pretty much just throw gasoline on that old fire.
I'd like to see a world in which everyone understands that nobody really gets it.
We are just all trying for a slice of the economic pie without breaking the laws of men and god and morality too bad.
Summing it up like that dosn't fix it, I just hope someone quotes me on that when I'm the Emporer of The Universe.

I am not a Christian of any stripe, I am a PanDeist.... since PanDeism is not concerned with divisions between earthly religions (its only interest is in a rational understanding of God through science and logic), the Pope's pronouncement is of no significance to PanDeism or any other religion that can demonstrated through rational thought alone!!

Relax Concerned the Christian Now Liberated

Your post explaining on baptism etc (an updated and revised version) in another thread would drop the jaws of Qur'an thumpers who would not even understand the traditional Christian reasons for it. At least the rite of baptism keeps priests busy doing something, and theological students occupied to rationalise on that rite.

So much time and money spent on rites and minds to justify them - theologically eh?

I am really interested to listen to what the so-called Bible and Qur'an thumpers have to say.

Ahhh, the bred, born and brainwashed bible thumpers, what would we do without them????

Well we get an occasional comment from koran thumpers.

Salaam Aleykium,

The pope is the follower of the Roman Sun god and deities.The Roman Catholic and apostalic church is divided and weak.The lies will shed the truth.Find out for yourself because I will not answer that for you.Question your way of life never take sources for granted. Walekium.

David, you say, “Do you really think you can show any evidence convincing enough to make any of us Christians give up our faith?” No, I think some people won’t budge no matter what. Some people still think Iraq was involved in 9/11. Nothing will change their minds.

What’s the point? Well, in some cases, facts are important. Not when it comes to faith, though – facts are definitely not the point. That’s why I don’t understand why any modern biblical finds matter to believers. The beliefs are based on events from over 2 thousand years ago. Believers have already decided to believe without evidence and in spite of any evidence to the contrary.

John M. you say, “It's just cool that it makes the news and non-believers get to see it and ponder the meaning of it.” I agree – same goes for news that disputes biblical history.

No, I’m not offended really, to be considered less of a Christian by Pope Benedict XVI but I am amazed at the audacious ability of a man born Joey Ratzinger of Bavaria to lose sight of his own human-ness. Jesus Christ himself said He was for everyone, and I have yet to read anything of Him saying that His forgiveness was only to be given through what has become a very selfish lineage of men known as the Roman Catholic Church.

In a nutshell, the pope recently reaffirmed previous statements made when he was cardinal, stating that the Catholic church is the only true church and that the reformed church, due to it’s lack of ecclesiastical succession, cannot offer salvation. The statement kindly calls that shortcoming a “defect” in our theology and states that we might be considered part of the community but not part of the church.

The “Dominus Iesus,” which translates as “Jesus the Lord,” begins with a statement of faith and ecumenical desire, expressing them well. Shortly, however, it goes into a warning against other theologies even minutely different from theirs, and a proclamation that there is but one church. Further impoliteness follows. Sadly, as with some other derivatives of the faith in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the proclamation of faith in a loving God becomes one of exclusion that if taken too far, becomes one of war.

The ecclesiastical succession the pope refers to is the incoming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost as told in Acts 2. The apostles were infused with the Holy Spirit, spoke in tongues, and went on to build the church by spreading the word, performing miracles of healing along the way. The Roman Catholic Church believes that only from men who have had a direct succession of laying on of hands from those twelve might the power of God to forgive be continued in the world.

With incredible rising arrogance the Pope then goes on to call us “wounded” for not accepting him with primacy, or as the supreme leader of the Christian faith. Has a man of faith ever been more wrong in beating his own chest and saying “I am the way!” Sorry, Benny, but you could not be further from the Truth. Methinks you doth protesteth the heretics too much.

I read of this in today’s Los Angeles Times and two pages later found the “Religious Directory.” It is a half-page of very small type with listings of faithful gatherings. It’s a nice snapshot of the religious community, or at least those that feel the need to advertise in the Times with a small budget, and the variety of faiths, from mainstream to the far reaches, is enlightening.

I’d actually like to visit the Messianic Jewish congregation that has “proof who the Jewish Messiah is” but might pass on a non-denominational groups call that “Spiritworks is a Feeling!” To each their own. The mainstream groups, Christian and Jewish alike, give no indication to their respective differences in theology, mostly going with name, address and times of worship alone. You can tell which groups might be breaking new ground by the fact that they need to proclaim something there along with their name. They are still building the association of name and theology in the public mind.

It has been said that mankind was born with a God-sized hole in their souls and I’ve liked the sound of that phrase every time I come across it. Even those that deny any god at all, in so doing, speak or think of the possibility. For those that seek some fulfillment with God or a higher power as they individually understand it, their personal theology is as good as they can get it, as rational and as faith-driven as it needs to be, and as different from the next as the variety of plants on the planet. Who is to say that "What is written on their hearts" could be written by a creator that doesn't care about bringing them home? I'm left wondering if the pope has even read Romans 2, or if that would be too painful a reminder of the whole reformation brought about from within his church?

What part of “The Peace of our Lord” does the pope think we cannot have except by the touch of man? Communion? Was it not well before the coming of the Holy Spirit that the command “Do this in remembrance of me” was given? Was it not well before then that Jesus proclaimed, “if you have faith as small as a mustard seed ... you (could move a mountain)?”

Surely the pope’s proclamation does nothing to further the love of God among those of His creation, surely nothing to open the ears of those that have yet to hear, surely only spite can come of it.

Does the pope think that God does not hear every prayer called out in His name? That He doesn’t respond but to those He chose and their selected followers? Does this then give the pope a better understanding of the Jewish view of Christ and His church?

That all said, I am not offended by these statements because they are but opinion of a man, a man that happens to be head of his church. Call him the Jerry Falwell of Rome if you like, I hold him in no higher esteem. For a church to have such a belief as part of their faith I can accept, if with my own reservations. For a church, however, to publish such a statement is the height of arrogance, of the foolishness of man, and can only be seen as intentionally and acerbically condescending. Those are, in a phrase, fighting words. Where is the love in them?

Would it not have been better to keep that paper within the church, knowing in their hearts that it defined their thinking, but holding back from using it as a slap in the face to every person they were trying to reach?

Whenever a man or group of men considers themselves the only conduit of God, one might immediately realize that they are not.

With apologies to any of the Catholic Church laity who may be offended, my sense is that you may be comfortable in your faith and I applaud that. I, too, am comfortable in mine. Can we move on please, working together in our communities, separately in our churches, and know that we have the love of Christ in common?

E Fav:

I agree with David. Archeological finds help confirm the historicity and time frame of the authors. (Those two things are under attack all the time. Just look at any post by CCNL - Oh, wait...all his posts are the SAME.)

As for the spiritual truths in the Book, that is up to each reader to believe or not believe.

The research finds do not really build on my faith. I'm not sitting by my front door looking for my newspaper to show me proof that God exists. I am not at all surprised to see these finds. I know what I believe, and I know it's true. It's just cool that it makes the news and non-believers get to see it and ponder the meaning of it.

E Fav,

I never said this archaeological find proved what Jeremiah wrote to be correct. That is up to the individual. I merely stated that it proved it to be HISTORICALLY correct. In other words this find would make it quite hard to attack the reliability of Jeremiah's account because truly he was at the time of what he wrote about. That's all.

It seems that non-believers want to be all over the evidence in support of the Bible and attack it in any little way possible. E Fav, just let it be, man. Do you really think you can show any evidence convincing enough to make any of us Christians give up our faith? Probably not. So what's the point?

Early in my religious education I had the good luck to be taught by the Sisters of Notre Dame de Maurs - they were straight from France and taught with a great and ecumenical spirit. From their teachings I grew to understand that much of what the Vatican says deserves my review and a decision of conscience.

To that affect I choose to believe in the principles of Catholicism but not the rules that make us less Christian. We need more independent thinkers who can use Christ as a model and not a hammer of submission.

Early in my religious education I had the good luck to be taught by the Sisters of Notre Dame de Maurs - they were straight from France and taught with a great and ecumenical spirit. From their teachings I grew to understand that much of what the Vatican says deserves my review and a decision of conscience.

To that affect I choose to believe in the principles of Catholicism but not the rules that make us less Christian. We need more independent thinkers who can use Christ as a model and not a hammer of submission.

Early in my religious education I had the good luck to be taught by the Sisters of Notre Dame de Maurs - they were straight from France and taught with a great and ecumenical spirit. From their teachings I grew to understand that much of what the Vatican says deserves my review and a decision of conscience.

To that affect I choose to believe in the principles of Catholicism but not the rules that make us less Christian. We need more independent thinkers who can use Christ as a model and not a hammer of submission.

Why are so many people either shocked, or defending this scum. This is not a man of honor, who has the basic understanding of right and wrong. It's the same man who tried to kill allied servicemen, actually defended the Third Reich, was part of Adolf Hitler's war machine. And now states that people who do not hold his church, of which he holds absolute power over, are deceivers and false in their beliefs? Give me a Buddhist, Taoist, or Muslim over some jerk in a funny hat who's church is staffed by guys, who spread the faith by pinching little boys on the butt.

Brian - One more thing - could you name some of the verbal blows you mention that secular humanists have struck against the church?

thanks

Brian, you say, "We as Christians, be you Catholic or Protestant, need to unite together against the powers of evil. Secular humanists are constantly striking verbal blows against the church."

Do you consider secular humanists to be evil? If so, how?

If not secular humanists, who are the powers of evil that you think Christians need to unite together against?

Thanks - I hope you get back to me on this.

Well, the church did originate in the Catholic church. However, I feel that the church of Christ encompasses all of Christendom. We as Christians, be you Catholic or Protestant, need to unite together against the powers of evil. Secular humanists are constantly striking verbal blows against the church. I don't think they care if it would be Catholic or Protestant. Let's unite and worship Jesus together and stop letting our differences seperate us. We will share in the same heaven with the same God and the same Jesus.

Lepidopteryx,

Again, I am glad that you are on a similar wavelength of spiritual thought as I am. Did you read the Amit Goswami book, “The Self Aware Universe” that I recommended on the blog about heaven and hell? If so, what do you think?

Matthew:

I too applaud the clarity, passion, and courage of the women speaking against this evil.

Mojo poster: Thats one way of putting it, Like I said before truth hurts those who don't understand it, good video by the way. But yet through the whole video, yes one man narrated with a song but it was the women in the clip that spoke the Truth. So us Men need to step back and actually listen to the women who speak the truth. When God comes to judge with his two witnesses do you serioulsy think both will be male. For He created male and female. So his judgment would not be just by sending two men but just in sending a man and a women to testify to the truth.Just as it was in the begining so shall it be in the end. God bless and Peace always.Matthew

Stuck Mojo's Open Season on CAIR..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9oX5Q2ftmA

The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) has complained to the US government about the release of the video.

Push That Link: MUST SEE..

This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, high-minded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 2Timonthy 3:1-5. God Bless and Peace be welcomed by all.Matthew

Amen Matthew Joseph and to that I would add:

Ezekiel
# And thou shalt eat it as barley cakes, and thou shalt bake it with dung that cometh out of man.--4:12
# Lo, I have given thee cow's dung for man's dung,and thou shalt prepare thy bread therewith.--4:15

dear Anon -

I'm opposed to banning any words except obvious foul language.

I'm in favor of speaking clearly and consider your proposed sentence to be a good alternative to "cherry picking."

I suggest people who post anonymously aqcuire a handle. It's easier for others to followvarious posters remarks that way, and makes for a more congenial conversation, I think.

Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going." John 14:1-4

For I know the plans that I have for you,' declares the LORD, 'plans for welfare and not for calamity to give you a future and a hope. Then you will call upon Me and come and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. Jeremiah 29:11-13

efavorite and posters:

I say we temporarily ban the use of the words "cherry picked" from posts. It has been overused and has lost its meaning ad nauseum.

Just say -"I choose to disregard the points you have made because they don't correlate with my belief system."

Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going." John 14:1-4

For I know the plans that I have for you,' declares the LORD, 'plans for welfare and not for calamity to give you a future and a hope. Then you will call upon Me and come and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. Jeremiah 29:11-13

Hi, John M and David – what I find interesting is how some believers “cherry pick” archeological research just the way they cherry-pick biblical verses. As Robert Coote, the San Francisco Theological Seminary professor says in the article cited below, "The logical fallacy"… "is to say that this one corroboration makes the whole narrative true and accurate."

While eager to accept minimal and incomplete information on the historicity of Jeremiah based on a two-inch clay tablet, the same believers reject years of archeological research that deny the enslavement of the Jews in Egypt, and their escape to the Promised land. In fact, archeology indicates that the Jews were in Palestine along side the Canaanites the whole time. They are essentially the same people.

Here’s the Amazon description of archeology scholars Finkelstein and Silberman’s “The Bible Unearthed” http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0684869128/ref=olp_product_details/002-1878591-2519231?ie=UTF8&seller=

“The Bible Unearthed is a balanced, thoughtful, bold reconsideration of the historical period that produced the Hebrew Bible. The headline news in this book is easy to pick out: there is no evidence for the existence of Abraham, or any of the Patriarchs; ditto for Moses and the Exodus; and the same goes for the whole period of Judges and the united monarchy of David and Solomon.”

And here’s a link to an article about how this information have been included since 2002 in the “Tree of Life” books found in all Conservative Jewish temples: http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

I was initially shocked to learn about this – especially that it was well known among scholars and clergy, but not passed on to the public. I asked numerous clergy about it after I learned of it. They all acknowledged it -- some immediately, others after a little hedging.

Z-BOB: "Could “god” be the collective consciousness of all space and time that exists in the transcendent order"

That's basically how I see my pantheon. My deities are not separate from me or from any other aspect of the world - the Divine IS the world.

David:

Thanks for the link. Cool article.

You know, for 1800 years, people who read the Bible believed it - all of it. But, now that some feel we are "too intelligent" to believe some of it, it is interesting that all of these archeological finds are coming out.

Everybody is discussing what the pope should be. So I guess that the reality is no one cares anymore what the pope thinks, sad in a way, but a reality none the less. Nothing against old people because we get alot of knowledge from them, but when you reach a certain age change comes very difficult to grasp. So do you think the leaders should change the age limits so younger people with more open minds can discuss things, because this is the only way talks will actually get done.

Hey there John M,

Nice post as always. Since you referred to Jeremiah, I thought I would post this article about the recent find confirming the historical accuracy of the book of Jeremiah.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1645738,00.html

Thought you might be interested. Have a blessed day, my friend.

God bless

Ladies and Gentlemen: The question is

How does the Pope's reiteration that the church of Christ exists fully only in the Catholic Church strike you? How will this affect ecumenical relations? Does anyone care?

Why are people discussing the religions of the world?

Hi, Viejita:

You wrote:
"There is a good argument to show that Jesus was a rebel, not against His Father, but against the religious authorities of His time. It is good to sometimes be reminded that Christianity did not start out as a worldwide, majority faith, but as a whole new covenant, a "New Deal" for all of humanity."

He was rebelling against the religious authorities? Hmmm. Who gave them that authority? Oh, wait ... it was JESUS! The leaders had hijacked the Law and changed it to their liking and benefit. He just called them on it.

I also disagree that He was starting a new religion. The New Testament (New Covenant) is a fulfillment of the Old Tesatment. This New Covenant is promised in the old covenant, including for example, Jeremiah 31:31 -
"The time is coming," declares the LORD,
"when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah."

Isn't it a little odd that one religion's sacred text would repeatedly speak of another religion before it came to be? The answer is that there is One God and He has one people: those who follow Him. That, by the way, answers this week's question, I think.

"Could “god” be the collective consciousness of all space and time that exists in the transcendent...."

That is exactly why I call god IT. IT is in everything animate and inanimate. IT is not capable of creation IT is creation.

He seems to have arrived at an exceptional grasp of the idea of chutzpah. Hubris insults God and should not be a characteristic of someone who claims to represent same.

He has now alienated Protestants. Having alienated Muslims and native peoples in South America, he has finessed a hat trick. Maybe he ought to resign the papacy and return to the classroom and its freedom to explore ideas without provoking wars -- either actual or ideological.

He does better, it seems, with cats. They love him.

He seems to have arrived at an exceptional grasp of the idea of chutzpah. Hubris insults God and should not be a characteristic of someone who claims to represent same.

He has now alienated Protestants. Having alienated Muslims and native peoples in South America, he has finessed a hat trick. Maybe he ought to resign the papacy and return to the classroom and its freedom to explore ideas without provoking wars -- either actual or ideological.

He does better, it seems, with cats. They love him.

John Larsen

It is very refreshing to hear a Buddhist point of view on this blog. The middle way of Buddhism is a fantastic way to live everyday life mindfully and to eventually discover that this shore is the other shore. (All concepts contain within them their opposites). If more people could realize the interdependent nature of all life and things in the universe (Thich Nhat Hanh calls it “interbeing”), and overcome the illusory independent self, then many of the world’s egocentric caused problems would cease.

Could “god” be the collective consciousness of all space and time that exists in the transcendent order (see Einstein’s absolute space-time, David Bohm’s implicate order, Stephen Hawking’s time has no boundary proposal, etc.) which is actually “created” in the explicate order by conscious beings’ experiences. In other words do our impermanent conscious experiences in the historical dimension create the “god” of the transcendent ultimate dimension. While “god” may be irrelevant in Buddhist thought and practice, (especially as an interceding being) doesn’t the collective consciousness of the ultimate dimension (Thich Nhat Hanh’s terminology) lead to a similar transcendent, universal, absolute “being”?

Peace in every moment!

Take a moment to think about the WORD: God...

The United States has had such a large portion of its population as Christians for so long that most folks use the word God as a generic term for diety. The word 'God' is like the word 'Kleenex,' in that both are proprietary terms.

'Kleenex' is owned by the Kimberley-Clark paper company. In much the same way - without the legal
ramifications - 'God' is owned by Christianity and is a much different diety than, Allah, Yahweh,
Budda, Zeus, etc.

Each of those who profess a religious belief - even members of the same congregation - will have differing concepts of their personal diety. The Pope, and far too many of my fellow humans, have failed to expand their minds to encompass this fundamental truth.

Neal G. Dunkleberg

A letter directly from the office of satan. Once you take away one Faith how long before your Faith is trampled on. UN=NWO(New World Order). The UN also voted God out this past session. If you think orginized religion is deadly so then World wide governments are destructive

.....Recalling its resolution 1904 (XVIII) of 20 November 1963, proclaiming the United Nations Declaration on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination, and in particular its affirmation that "any doctrine of racial differentiation or superiority is scientifically false, morally condemnable, socially unjust and dangerous" and its expression of alarm at "the manifestations of racial discrimination still in evidence in some areas of the world, some of which are imposed by certain Governments by means of lesislative, administrative or other measures".

Recalling also that, in its resolution 3151G (XXVIII) of 14 December 1973, the General Assembly condemned, inter alia, the unholy alliance between South African racism and zionism,

Geee, and Israel wonders why anyone paying attention can see their apartheid treatment of palestinians!

Taking note of the Declaration of Mexico on the Equality of Women and Their Contribution to Development and Peace, 1975, proclaimed by the World Conference of the International Women's Year, held at Mexico City from 19 June to 2 July 1975, which promulgated the principle that "international co-operation and peace require the achievement of national liberation and independence, the elimination of colonialism and neo-colonialism, foreign occupation, zionism, apartheid
and racial discrimination in all its forms, as well as the recognition of the dignity of peoples and their right to self-determination",
Taking note also of resolution 77 (XII) adopted by the Assembly of Heads of State and Government of the Organization of African Unity at its twelfth ordinary session, held at Kampala from 28 July to 1 August 1975, which considered "that the racist regime in occupied Palestine and the racist regimes in Zimbabwe and South Africa have a common imperialist origin, forming a whole and having the same racist structure and being organically linked in their policy aimed at repression of the dignity and integrity of the human being",

Taking note also of the Political Declaration and Strategy to Strengthen International Peace and Security and to Intensify Solidarity and Mutual Assistance among Non-Aligned Countires, adopted at the Conference of Ministers for Foreign Affairs of Non-Aligned Countries held at Lima from 25 to 30 August 1975, which most severely condemned zionism as a threat to world peace and security and called upon all countries to oppose the racist and imperialist ideology,
Determines that zionism is a form of racism and racial discrimination.

2400th plenary meeting
10 November 1975

1975 UN Resolution 3379

A letter directly from the office of satan. Once you take away one Faith how long before your Faith is trampled on. UN=NWO(New World Order). The UN also voted God out this past session. If you think orginized religion is deadly so then World wide governments are destructive.

1975 UN Resolution 3379 calls for the end to Zionism and the occupation of Palestine.

.....Recalling its resolution 1904 (XVIII) of 20 November 1963, proclaiming the United Nations Declaration on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination, and in particular its affirmation that "any doctrine of racial differentiation or superiority is scientifically false, morally condemnable, socially unjust and dangerous" and its expression of alarm at "the manifestations of racial discrimination still in evidence in some areas of the world, some of which are imposed by certain Governments by means of lesislative, administrative or other measures".

Recalling also that, in its resolution 3151G (XXVIII) of 14 December 1973, the General Assembly condemned, inter alia, the unholy alliance between South African racism and zionism,

Geee, and Israel wonders why anyone paying attention can see their apartheid treatment of palestinians!

Taking note of the Declaration of Mexico on the Equality of Women and Their Contribution to Development and Peace, 1975, proclaimed by the World Conference of the International Women's Year, held at Mexico City from 19 June to 2 July 1975, which promulgated the principle that "international co-operation and peace require the achievement of national liberation and independence, the elimination of colonialism and neo-colonialism, foreign occupation, zionism, apartheid
and racial discrimination in all its forms, as well as the recognition of the dignity of peoples and their right to self-determination",
Taking note also of resolution 77 (XII) adopted by the Assembly of Heads of State and Government of the Organization of African Unity at its twelfth ordinary session, held at Kampala from 28 July to 1 August 1975, which considered "that the racist regime in occupied Palestine and the racist regimes in Zimbabwe and South Africa have a common imperialist origin, forming a whole and having the same racist structure and being organically linked in their policy aimed at repression of the dignity and integrity of the human being",

Taking note also of the Political Declaration and Strategy to Strengthen International Peace and Security and to Intensify Solidarity and Mutual Assistance among Non-Aligned Countires, adopted at the Conference of Ministers for Foreign Affairs of Non-Aligned Countries held at Lima from 25 to 30 August 1975, which most severely condemned zionism as a threat to world peace and security and called upon all countries to oppose the racist and imperialist ideology,
Determines that zionism is a form of racism and racial discrimination.

2400th plenary meeting
10 November 1975

1975 UN Resolution 3379

Gaby,
That is why it is called knowledge. There are original writings available for all to translate for themselves. Plus as the other person stated in the past as now archeology has proved the prophets from the bible to be true. What people forget is not all prophecy was meant for the time they where around. Also the bible are some writings inspired be the divine and witnesses just the sad thing is the torah and the bible not the words are changed but some of the other text from chritian foundation have been removed to please the establishment no the followers. Here are a few chritian text that where part of the new testament but later removed. Ask why? The Didache, letter of barnabas,shepard of hermes. There are plenty others from the 120's AD and back to 70's AD these where also documented by eusibus, and origin and and early followers of christ that had the oppurtunity to read great writings of Faith that we are now getting to read, because the powers that took over tried to hide. God Bless and Peace always.Matthew

P.S. We all have the chance to search for the real Truth.

What prove have any of you that your holy books were inspired by God?

What proof do you have that the original meaning was actually translated correctly?

Just because you band together in your Islam or Christianity where others of your faiths reassure you that you are right, does not mean you (or they) are!

Concerned,

Thanks for copying and pasting the same thing over and over again.

I gave reasons why I think the Bible is inspired, through historical accuracy, documented miracles witnessed by several people, and most importantly prophecy. I never mentioned that I believe in the Bible simply because "it says so". I merely stated the fact that God gave us divine proof in the Bible so we don't have to say I believe it because "it says so".

So, I'm assuming (or maybe I can prophecy) that you are going to counter this argument with some form of literature from Professor Crossan? Maybe how he says Jesus didn't do the things He did? And tell me how Pro. Crossan would know that? I'm assuming the next thing Professor Crossan would imagine is that it was impossible for Jesus to resurrect from the dead because there were eyewitnesses testifying that Jesus wasn't on the cross that day, he was at Subway ordering a foot long? Like I told you before, Concerned, I think I would rather believe the people who actually saw Jesus and witnessed the events, rather than one man's assumption.

It does not matter what talks resume or don't, because fate includes destiny and what we think is gonna happen is not. Not wars over oil and money but war over food and water. Just as it happened in the begining so to shall it be in the end.Because only with a begining can there come an End.

David,

As with most Christians, me included, we live in the Christian box because we were bred, born and brainwashed in it. Our greatest mistake is taking the word of the Bible as gospel.

Think about the logic (or lack thereof).
“I believe the Bible is inspired.” “Why?” “Because it says so.” Would you or anyone let that logic pass if it came from the followers of any other book
or person? “I believe x is inspired because x says so.” Fill in the blanks:
x=Pat Robertson
x=the ayatolloah Sistani (sp?)
x=David Koresh
x=the Koran”
x=David

more “logic”?
“I believe there is One God Jehovah because He is revealed in the infallible Bible. I believe the Bible is infallible because it is the Word of the One God Jehovah.”

Viejita,

Great question. This is what I think seperates the Bible from all other religions. So many claim to be the only true divinely inspired book. But the Bible proves it! How so?

There are miracles recorded in the Bible. The Bible being written over a 1500 year span by 40 different authors and not one contradiction. (Of course many will debate that one.) The Bible is historically accurate. Just yesterday I read on cnn.com that archaeologist found a tablet that confirms the historical accuracy of the book of Jeremiah. Amazing. But most importantly, the fact that we can know that the Bible is divinely inspired is by prophecy. Can you find anyone or any book that can be 100% accurate in it's prophetical outcomes? Many people will say Nostradamus made predications too. But his were so vague and not 100% accurate. Same with psychics. Never could be 100% accurate. Only the Bible is 100% accurate. This is how God proves to us that He truly is the real God of the Bible.

So because I know very little about the Koran, I wonder if it has any of the attributes the Bible has? I think this is a very good question for Muslims.

Instead of him trying to prove his intelligence why doesen't he try to prove the true meaning of the catholic word for it's true meaning "Universal". Once this has a true meaning then we can talk semantics. Peace and Love.

Glad to see everyone is delightfully off topic.

David: You asked Ahmed to show proof that the Quran is divinely inspired. As Christians, how do we prove that our Bible is divinely inspired? I mean of course, prove to someone who does not already believe, without using circular logic. (i.e. This is true because I say so and I do not lie. You can tell I'm not a liar because my statements are true.) I can pick up my Bible and sense that it is true and divinely inspired, but is that proof?

John M.: There is a good argument to show that Jesus was a rebel, not against His Father, but against the religious authorities of His time. It is good to sometimes be reminded that Christianity did not start out as a worldwide, majority faith, but as a whole new covenant, a "New Deal" for all of humanity.

Well, KB, I guess your post proves that Wapoland’s Faith junction is full of endless talk and no communication. My quote from the “Confessions” is a follow-on to OK4Realz’s lovely little “open your heart” meditation. The intervening jodeho sounds to me like something from Heidegger with its stress on Being (Being being to Heidegger what God is to the rest of us).

And the Church has been caring for the sick, feeding the hungry, sheltering the homeless and comforting the dying for—oh!—two thousand years or so, not because it wants to ‘save’ the world, whatever that might mean..No, because Jesus Christ told Christians to do so, and so we do. And will continue to do so as long as we, and after us the Church,exists, which will be long after you and I depart.

Happy to see compassionate and realistic views on personal matters such as these. Now we just have to get a loud enough voice to take on the egoists and meglomanics in the religious community. I could even ignore their hypocritical intolerance if these large organized religions were actually ding anything useful in the world, other than "morality" lessons and judgements.
Plus the pope can start makeing judgements as soon as he starts liquidating the assets of the church to those in need. Pope Benedict, Bring down all this gold !!!!

"Thou hast made us for Thyself, O Lord, and our hearts are restless until they rest in Thee."

St Augustine of Hippo, "Confessions"

when I am hungry, I eat; when I am sleepy, I sleep; the rules of math always are true; it is now and I am here: these things I know for sure with the rationality Being has created: what do I need all those opinions for?

On a day of God's choosing, you will find yourself blissfully aware that God is not offended by your spiritual journey. Wherever and with whomever your seeking takes you, whatever questions you ask of God or yourself, it is the natural expression of the hunger that was designed into your being by a knowing God. It is the mere beginning of joy when you consciously grasp this key to enlightenment. It may take you some time, however, and there will be a great deal of fumbling in the dark before you realize that you are locked on the inside and the key you hold is to radical freedom outside of your former way of thinking. Unlock the door, discard the illusion of self and let the world take you into its heart.

http://ok4realz.typepad.com/incoherent_rambling/2007/02/on_a_day_of_god.html

islam is a joke

islam is a joke

I'll make this short, quick and to the point. Born in the U.S. to parents who fled the Nazis and lost all their relatives to the Nazi murderers and their ilk. Hearing things in the U.S. in a mostly Catholic reserve unit like prior to the 1967 war, "those Jew bums they'll get theirs, the Arabs will teach them a lesson they'll never forget". Such was a toast to a packed N.C.O. and officers lounge. Add to that the roughing up by Catholic kids of Jewish kids for no reason other than them being Jewish etc. etc. etc. No wonder only place for such an eyewitness Israel is the sole place to be. No not at Arab expense. In Jewish bought land former unwanted desert land cultivated by Jewish Israelis. Look Judaism was around before both other major religions. It alone has no chip on its shoulder and it must know that it has to go in the way of heaven and be secure or it will be punished by those on of the other religions who will serve as heaven's tool.

I'll make this short, quick and to the point. Born in the U.S. to parents who fled the Nazis and lost all their relatives to the Nazi murderers and their ilk. Hearing things in the U.S. in a mostly Catholic reserve unit like prior to the 1967 war, "those Jew bums they'll get theirs, the Arabs will teach them a lesson they'll never forget". Such was a toast to a packed N.C.O. and officers lounge. Add to that the roughing up by Catholic kids of Jewish kids for no reason other than them being Jewish etc. etc. etc. No wonder only place for such an eyewitness Israel is the sole place to be. No not at Arab expense. In Jewish bought land former unwanted desert land cultivated by Jewish Israelis. Look Judaism was around before both other major religions. It alone has no chip on its shoulder and it must know that it has to go in the way of heaven and be secure or it will be punished by those on of the other religions who will serve as heaven's tool.

I'll make this short, quick and to the point. Born in the U.S. to parents who fled the Nazis and lost all their relatives to the Nazi murderers and their ilk. Hearing things in the U.S. in a mostly Catholic reserve unit like prior to the 1967 war, "those Jew bums they'll get theirs, the Arabs will teach them a lesson they'll never forget". Such was a toast to a packed N.C.O. and officers lounge. Add to that the roughing up by Catholic kids of Jewish kids for no reason other than them being Jewish etc. etc. etc. No wonder only place for such an eyewitness Israel is the sole place to be. No not at Arab expense. In Jewish bought land former unwanted desert land cultivated by Jewish Israelis. Look Judaism was around before both other major religions. It alone has no chip on its shoulder and it must know that it has to go in the way of heaven and be secure or it will be punished by those on of the other religions who will serve as heaven's tool.

I'll make this short, quick and to the point. Born in the U.S. to parents who fled the Nazis and lost all their relatives to the Nazi murderers and their ilk. Hearing things in the U.S. in a mostly Catholic reserve unit like prior to the 1967 war, "those Jew bums they'll get theirs, the Arabs will teach them a lesson they'll never forget". Such was a toast to a packed N.C.O. and officers lounge. Add to that the roughing up by Catholic kids of Jewish kids for no reason other than them being Jewish etc. etc. etc. No wonder only place for such an eyewitness Israel is the sole place to be. No not at Arab expense. In Jewish bought land former unwanted desert land cultivated by Jewish Israelis. Look Judaism was around before both other major religions. It alone has no chip on its shoulder and it must know that it has to go in the way of heaven and be secure or it will be punished by those on of the other religions who will serve as heaven's tool.

I'll make this short, quick and to the point. Born in the U.S. to parents who fled the Nazis and lost all their relatives to the Nazi murderers and their ilk. Hearing things in the U.S. in a mostly Catholic reserve unit like prior to the 1967 war, "those Jew bums they'll get theirs, the Arabs will teach them a lesson they'll never forget". Such was a toast to a packed N.C.O. and officers lounge. Add to that the roughing up by Catholic kids of Jewish kids for no reason other than them being Jewish etc. etc. etc. No wonder only place for such an eyewitness Israel is the sole place to be. No not at Arab expense. In Jewish bought land former unwanted desert land cultivated by Jewish Israelis. Look Judaism was around before both other major religions. It alone has no chip on its shoulder and it must know that it has to go in the way of heaven and be secure or it will be punished by those on of the other religions who will serve as heaven's tool.

Ahmed,

As with most Muslims, you live in the Islamic box because you were bred, born and brainwashed in it. Most Christians live in some version of their religion's box.

Again I repeat an analyses of the foundations of said religions so that we can all try to escape our boxes and enter the world of reality:

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was probably a mythical character. If he was real, he was at best a combination of at least three men. 1.5 million Conservative Jews and their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT.

2. Jesus, the illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter possibly suffering from hallucinations, has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth. Analyses of his life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists)via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian/Jewish/Pagan sects.

3. Mohammed, an illiterate, hallucinating Arab, also had embellishing/hallucinating scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the Koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers , the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers , the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani koranics, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases and the Filipino koranics

4. Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingy thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

5. Hinduism (from an online Hindu site) - "Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centred and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’"
The caste/laborer system and cow worship are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism."

6. Buddhism- "Buddhism began in India about 500 years before the birth of Christ. The people living at that time had become disillusioned with certain beliefs of Hinduism including the caste system, which had grown extremely complex. The number of outcasts (those who did not belong to any particular caste) was continuing to grow."

"However, in Buddhism, like so many other religions, fanciful stories arose concerning events in the life of the founder, Siddhartha Gautama (fifth century B.C.):"

Archaeological discoveries have proved, beyond a doubt, his historical character, but apart from the legends we know very little about the circumstances of his life.

http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/BUDDHISM/SIDD.HTM

Bottom line: There are many good ways of living but be aware of the hallucinations/embellishments and myths surrounding the founders of said rules of life.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus for an analysis of Jesus' life to include his illiteracy.

I'm a Buddhist, not a strict practicing Buddhist but a Buddhist never the less. I believe in the middle path, not extremes. Life and nature always move to the middle; extreme heat eventually cools, extreme cold to warm- ice to water, steam to water. Hatred is destructive, as is possessive love.

I believe most of our suffering, is caused by our attachments and our fear of losing them, them being what ever we think we really can possess and control. Many Christians and Muslims are very dogmatic about their beliefs, rules are there to keep order, God created these guides and that are to be followed. If more people would follow these guides things would be much better.

This is control from outside, the idea that God or Satan somehow influence us to behave in certain ways. The idea that people who survive a catastrophic event credit God for their survival is ludicrous, what about those 250,000 people washed away by the December 2004 tsunami, many of them children? If you give God the credit for saving people because he chose to save them then you also have to blame him for destroying human life.

I can't accept this; to me this notion of God is irrelevant. People have demonstrated over and over again that their beliefs justify horrific behavior. You can see that what the American establishment did to the North American Indian in the 19th century and compare it to the acts Islamic terrorists today, they both held the same goal in the name of religious superiority. The goal is to wipe out a culture that is counter to your own and do it in the name of God. Manifest Destiny (in our case the right to destroy the savages) or jihadists God given right to destroy infidels. Both believed and still believe in their cause. This is an extreme comparison but the underlying principal is the same that God somehow sanctions this behavior.

Well I have a couple of questions, how did God let things get so messed up in the first place? It is so ironic that you cannot visit the birthplace of Jesus with out fear of being bombed by some Islamic terrorist. Jews, Muslims and Christians all lay claim to Jerusalem, tell me who is right?

And if God is so powerful what is he doing to help make things better? Why doesn't God blow up busses in Baghdad if it's the right thing to do? Why didn't God give Hitler a massive heart attack in 1929? Nobody would have to be the wiser.

The answer is that maybe God have set things in motion but he has long gone or maybe he still keeps an eye on things, either way I don't care. I don't believe in God, I believe in us. It's us, we are still here, and it is all up to us we can control many more things than we think we can. We have amazing abilities both for the good and detriment of mankind. Religion to me gets in the way. Large institutions like the Catholic Church or the mega churches are run like corporations, with huge budgets. How can anyone feel a personnel connection to a televangelist whose flock swells into the thousands? They need your cash, have ever seen a televangelist or the Pope take a vow of poverty?

It wasn't God that built the great cathedrals of Europe it was men. God didn't lift a finger. You may say that God inspires men to do great things, but I don't think so. I think our inspiration comes from someplace else. I think we have all the tools inside of us already.

We have to start giving ourselves the credit for doing good things so we do more good things. I don't mean to do this in way that inflates egos or makes people try to assert control over other people, what I consider the wrong reasons. If we see that we have the ability to end pain and suffering wouldn't you try to do so? Why are people concerned for a few embryonic cells when the potential for great healing may be at hand? Right wing pro life Christians say they cherish life yet they see science and knowledge as something that will undermine their religion. The bible was never a science book, and never will be.

How else are we to find cures, develop practices that have the potential to end, or make life easier for people who suffer terrible medical maladies? Contemplate life and death, it’s amazing but like it or not, we will all die someday. Why are we so afraid of it or have such a hard time dealing with it?

Take a break from religion, think for yourself. It's very simple; treat others like you want to be treated. Then get rid of fear, worry and guilt, you can do it. It is very liberating when you do so.

What the Pope says is correct. Catholic Church is the only Church, but not of Christ, that is Annointed/Redeemers. The Bible, not Holy that is never sent by god to a prophet of it's time was created by the Pope's in 325AD at the Council of Nicea which also created the Son of God story in resistant to One God doctrine by Arian. Jesus was Jewish his bible was the Torah, his faith was submission to God will(Islam)his way of life was Judaism, which made his action of submission Muslim. The Pope is right in what he is saying.

All other churches are just sects of Judaism like the Catholic Church itself, pieces of his creation and are not following what he has established. Political differences created Baptist, Protestant, Lutheran, etc. Matthew,Mark, Luke John, etc were followers of Jesus, not prophets, their opinions of their Jewish brother Jesus has been edited,new thoughts added,losted which were again piece together the make the Bible by the church(sect of Judaism)Catholic, therefore "when arguments are premised on lies, there is no foundation for debate."

As it says in the Holy Qur'an the only religion(ways of life) that will be accepted by god on Judgment day is Islam (submission to God will in Peace), is true and will be the only religion accepted, those who follow the Prophets, i.e. Jewish Jesus will be accepted, Moses, Abraham, Prophet Mohammed,(peace be upon them all)will be allowed in paradise, heaven. If I were a Christian by what is preceived faith in the Bible, I would tell the Pope, thank you very much, but I must leave your church and follow Jesus. I have my Torah and the Holy Qur'an, Jesus said the Comforter was coming after him and he will bring us into all that is new and that is the Prophet Mohammed, so thank you and may your force be with you. There is only One God, in Spanish it is Di'os, in Arabic it is Allah, etc, in your church you say it is Jesus, which is your created lie, Adios muchachos.

GM made the Oldsmobile and now have done away with it. They can get rid of Pontiac, Buick etc whenever the mood hits them. Likewise the Pope can denounces any of the sects that follow his creation, like it or not. The true followers of Islam made the Pope apologise for saying words that about the last prophet of God and he did, he now wants all sects to apologise for leaving his teachings and band together into one church, his. If you don't he has the right to denounces you and tell the world about it just like the Muslims have told the world you will not offend the Prophet Mohammed(peace be upon him) like you have offend Jesus the christ. By all means keep your Bibles, obtain your copies of the Torah and the Holy Qur'an and sees how the Bible was created, where the lies were added, etc. Follow Jesus by all means if you proclaim to be Christian per se and tell The Pope on the rope with his creations and all of those who care the follow it, find denounces us, we will leave your church for the truth now.

A new story about Jesus is not right nor is it better then the others especially if you still say the Jesus is the Son of God. This is the Popes's lie and in the Bible story Jesus was charged with this crime of saying that he was the Son of God by the ungodly Rabbis which led to his so-called crucifiction. so how and why now are you Christian proudly claim that he is the Son of God, when Jesus said the he is the son of Made, read the Bible it is in there. Whoi are you going to believe Jesus or John? I thank you for your time and patience. Inspiring Imam Brother Michael

David

First and foremost, Islam as in any other faith, is a matter of belief. If you believe in an All-Encampassing deity then you must also believe that S/He/It is The Ultimate Creator of ALL creation.

The Quran says the only religion acceptable to God is Islam. In Arabic this translates to "Submission to the will of God". Many Muslims believe that one has to convert to Islam to fulfill this edict. I do not believe so. thus you can remain committed to Christianity or Judaism or any other faith for that matter BUT submit to it from your heart and follow its true teaching because they all come from the same source. In which case you would also be a Muslim in my book. There is also a verse in the Quran telling the Christians and Jews to follow their own book if they are true to their own teaching. Quran also states that there is no difference between any of the prophets including Mohammad. So, in a way it mirrors what I say. Also note to become a Muslim: you would only need to declare that "There is only ONE God' and that "Prophet Mohammad is His messenger".

Note that Quran also declares Mother Mary as The First Lady of Paradise. So here is an Arab who refers to a Jewess in such an honourable way plus revere all their prophets including Christ as being the Word and The Spirit of God born of the Virgin. Thus the book asserts previous religions and wants to unite them under One God. It is for this reason that we believe such a grand notion can only be from The One God, since neither Judaism accepts Christ nor Christians accept Judaism and neither accept Islam. Yet Islam accepts both. Mohammed could not have dreamed of such a scheme! Besides the Quran refers to him as just another human being who was chosen to carry this universal message. He died owning nothing and living in a humble house with no servants and nothing to pass onto to his next of kin as worldly inheritances yet was the leader of Arabia.

There is also a few verses in the Quran where God challenges man's view of Quran: I would need to search for the actual verse but here are some:

"That if this book (meaning Quran) were from other than God, then you would find many a contradiction therein."

"These are the words of God and I will preserve them till Eternity." So far as we know the Quran has not been re-written or changed in any way ever since it was recited by Mohammed. Sure, many will come with various theories as to how and when it was written down but again it is our belief and it is a known fact that historically it has remained true to its text. Unlike the Bible where it has been rewritten in various versions. Yet the Quran also refers to many other such books given to other prophets. The Injeel (NT) to Christ, the Torah (OT) to Moses, Zaboor to some other prophet. it also goes on to say that the words of God are endless and that no people shall be left without a warner from amongst them who speak their own language. Such is God's love for us that He sends someone from oursleves so that we can relate to him yet most of the prophets have been wronged by their own folk. Do we ever learn???

The Quran states clearly that the author is God. Unlike the Bible it is not written according to a person i.e. John, Peter, Mathew, etc. Besides there is no such Bible according to Jesus. We can see that it is written from a third person's point of view whereas Quran is written in a way that is direct from God to man. No middle man. Not even Mohammed. No disrespect but this is what we know yet many Bible verses are truly from God since it pierces through the heart. That is enough for me.

Besides there are many challenges in the Quran where God asks man to ponder the universe, the atom, the nature and the seed and the very nature of life and death and then asks us where all this came from? And that if all men and spirits were to unite to come up with a verse like what Quran contains that they would fail.

So, the challenges are many but one has to read the book with an open mind and open heart. This is also a requirement asked for by God since guidance is from Him and Him alone.

Again I repeat it is all a matter of faith/belief. I make no difference between people. We are all brothers and sisters in humanity and the best of us are the ones who treat each other with the best of intentions. Each one of us has this grand potential.

Let me say this a true Muslim is also a true Christian and a true Jew and a true Buddhist and thus a true Human Being or Being Human.

In short that is what God would have wanted us to be: Brothers unto each other. There are many verses in the Quran which back what I have said but again there are people here in this very forum who will try to shoot me down. But I have found peace and it is within me. It is not in a book. All the books are guides for those who wish to seek truth. The very begining of Quran reflects these very words.

Yet a sharp human being only needs to hear one verse to understand the truth. Yet some need a lifetime of reminding and volumes of advice and in the end they still have much doubt. Such is the way and I make no judgement, only observation.

I bid you peace.

Correctly said , first we must understand ,and so the world too by the eminent scholars , who r the catholics ? why they use Jesus in their line of thoughts , what is the relation between King Mithra and the Catholics ,
who r the true followers of the teaching of Prophet Jesus ?

Once this confussion is over the world will gets 90% peace.....Ameen

The Pope, or the spiritual leader of any religon of his stature is looked upon as a peace maker.

Pope Ratzinger has caused tensions twice, once when he quoted the 3rd Century emperor and now about going back to that tradition. Neither of the acts were necessary to begin with, and yet he chose to use the language that is opposite of peace making.

I hope he would figure out a way to use the language that causes peace and build bridges. After all, it is the words that cause the war.

Mike Ghouse
www.FoundationforPluralism.com

Ahmed,

I'm very curious about Islam. Of course you hear all this hate on here, but I don't want to be judgemental, especially about something that I have no idea about. But I just have a question about Islam. If you would be so kind, could you answer this for me?

First of all, I am a Christian. As you know Christians believe in the Bible being the true Word of God as do Muslims believe the Koran is the true Word of God. But I am curious. Is there any proof that the Koran is really from God? Both faiths claim their writings to be inspired from God, but of course both cannot be true. Therefore what proof do you have concerning the Koran that can show that it truly is divinely inspired? If someone without faith comes to you and is curious about Islam, how can you show them that the Koran is true? Just curious. Thanks Ahmed.

Concerned

You said: "I see Ahmed has returned to grace us with his Islamic wisdom".

There is only ONE wisdom. There is no such thing as an "Islamic wisdom", and for your info nor a Christian, nor any other. Only ONE Spiritual Wisdom.

You live in a box and always want to put people in a box. I have freed myself from all boxes. You can either make an attempt to free yourself or remain in your box? The choice is yours and I fully respect that. Peace either way.

its not the christians that we have to worry about - its the hating and murdering islamics!
one more time - with feeling - and right from the koran and hadith
The Hadith No. 284, The Muslim, volume one, says that any Jew or Christian, who heard of Muhammad but did not convert to Islam, and died in disbelief, would rot in hell! Thus Islam withdraws from all Jews and Christians the right to believe in their faiths, and practice them as such.
"The unbelievers of the People of the Book and the idolators shall be in the Fire of Hell therein dwelling for ever; those are the worst of creatures. But those who believe, and do righteous deeds, those are the best of creatures..." (XCVIII: The Clear Sign: 5)
Here those Jews and Christians, who spurn Islam, have been lumped together with the idolators such as the Hindus, and classified as 'the worst of creatures'. Therefore the Koran commands:
"O believers, take not as your friends those of them, who were given the Book before you, and the unbelievers, who take your religion in mockery and as a sport..." (V: The Table: 60)
"The true believers say: Has not God ordered a chapter that commands the holy war" (Sura 47:22); or elsewhere: "Kill the idolaters wherever you find them, imprison them, besiege them, ambush them" (Sura 9:5); and, "Make war on unbelievers" (Sura 9:29). "When you come upon unbelievers, massacre them, tighten the bands of the captives that you will have taken. Then you will set them free, or you will release them for a ransom" (Sura 8:57).
"To Allah, there are no animals viler than those who do not believe and remain unbelievers" (Sura 8:57). That is why it is necessary to Islamize them by force and by humiliation. And those who resist Islam and its founder must be chastised, according to the Koran: "Here is the fate of those who fight Allah and his messenger: you will put them to death or you will make them suffer the torture of the cross; you will cut their hands and their feet alternately. They will be driven from the country" (Sura 5:37).
"Do not display cowardice, and do not call the infidels to peace when you are superior to them" (Sura 47:22). THIS ALLOWS THEM TO MAKE PEACE SO THAT THEY CAN MAKE WAR AGAIN LATER.
4.89": They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
"4.90": Except those who reach a people between whom and you there is an alliance, or who come to you, their hearts shrinking from fighting you or fighting their own people; and if Allah had pleased, He would have given them power over you, so that they should have certainly fought you; therefore if they withdraw from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not given you a way against them.
"4.91": You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given you a clear authority."
or the islamics crying over the crusades when they started them. here is a little short history about that:
The first Crusade began in 1095… 460 years after the first Christian city was overrun by Muslim armies, 457 years after Jerusalem was conquered by Muslim armies, 453 years after Egypt was taken by Muslim armies, 443 after Muslims first plundered Italy, 427 years after Muslim armies first laid siege to the Christian capital of Constantinople, 380 years after Spain was conquered by Muslim armies, 363 years after France was first attacked by Muslim armies, 249 years after Rome itself was sacked by a Muslim army, and only after centuries of church burnings, killings, enslavement and forced conversions of Christians.
so tell us in what context do you put the war like history of islam, considering that they started the war before anyone ever knew about them. or why there are no longer any jews in mecca?

He believes in what he is preaching. Don't other religious leaders?

BGONE,

You make many statements but I never see any references supporting them. And your website also seems to suffer from the same problem. Any reason for this????

Z-bob your right I forgot which soapbox I was standing on, that carried over from another blog.
Talks would be alot better if the man that started all the fuss wasn't the one who helped start it 40 something years ago. the pope has held an office of power well before he was elected as pope so it is just his way of showing media power. If all the religions really cared about unity, money would not be involved people would not get hurt,etc. Plus since when is the word of God supposed to be mixed with politics. So until there are fresh bodies in all the positions of power, ones who at least that are hard to corrupt. So lets just say I would get further in a conversation then getting the pope to admit he was wrong then and he is wrong now. SO I say no talks won't help. Matthew

Z-bob your right I forgot which soapbox I was standing on, that carried over from another blog.
Talks would be alot better if the man that started all the fuss wasn't the one who helped start it 40 something years ago. the pope has held an office of power well before he was elected as pope so it is just his way of showing media power. If all the religions really cared about unity, money would not be involved people would not get hurt,etc. Plus since when is the word of God supposed to be mixed with politics. So until there are fresh bodies in all the positions of power, ones who at least that are hard to corrupt. So lets just say I would get further in a conversation then getting the pope to admit he was wrong then and he is wrong now. SO I say no talks won't help. Matthew

BGone,
what so special about hoaxbusters looks like another form of pedling your point of veiw. When I search the web it is on a certain subject then I look through all the sites on that subject see if they are all on the same page then I go to the source itself and translate for myself. And so I don't peddle anysites but to me it just sounds like the little kid who never gets heard screaming here I am! What facts do you bring for a scattering of reported documents. If you don't belive what man wrote about God then why would you even remotly use a documment from the government you trust the writers of lies. For you info type in the word Nag Hammadi texts. You possibilities are endless. Try picking one subject and sticking to it jack of all trades master of none. Who is the fool, the one he gets to labor for him or the laborer who did the work?

While the following contribution is not exactly on point with the question, I believe that non-literal interpretations of biblical texts in concordance with other traditions are the most prudent ways to proceed spiritually in a universal, ecumenical manner.

When delving into the mysterious questions of an existential purpose of human beings, an excellent starting point is the beautiful, allegorical story of creation as espoused in Genesis. Could the “tree of knowledge” represent the ability of humans to verbally conceptualize our experiences and to store that knowledge within our large brains? Did the evolution of our species allow us to create vivid conceptual images of the past, present and future as a survival technique in a world with bigger, stronger competition? Is not the knowledge of good and evil a manner by which intelligent, self-aware beings conceptualize their apparent reality? Humans conceptualize their surroundings and phenomena in almost every moment of consciousness. Another necessary strategy for survival is the ability to distinguish one’s self from other selves. Other animals also seem to be able to distinguish their individual entities from other entities but to our knowledge, we may be the only animals to have evolved to the point of conceptual self reflection. (Genesis-they knew they were naked).

If one looks deeply into their existence, one can determine that humans are not separate entities from the rest of the universe. In other words, we as physical beings are intimately connected to other “things” in the universe. We cannot survive without water, oxygen, vegetables, fruit, etc. and, therefore, we are a “part” of the “whole” Our ability to distinguish ourselves from other humans or animals or plants is an evolutionary strategy for self survival. But when you combine our intellectual abilities of conceptualization with our self awareness, we “create” a complex selfish entity. Within our thoughts over our lifetimes, we create an entity of self that attempts to protect itself from others and attach itself to people and to things. In Christian terminology this selfishness is defined as sin. Selfish acts and thoughts always cause the selfish person to suffer. Also, since in true reality we are part of all things, when we are selfless, we are one with God. Is this not essentially what Jesus Christ was teaching?

To quote the great American Christian minister Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.: “Every man must decide whether he will walk in the light of creative altruism or in the darkness of destructive selfishness.”

Peace

What's the Latin for this?:

http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/478428,CST-NWS-priest22.article

Life is funny everything that seem’s to be really isn't. All my Life I thought that the people in our lives were here to help us and in turn you do likewise. Yes, we might start out with good intentions, but then the evil things in life take a hold, because this is what we allow him to do, I speak of jealousy, greed, vanity, guile , deceit, lies, and worst of them all HATE. When I say he, I do not mean our Father, Christ, I mean his archenemy, which is ours also. The one who from our creation has set demise of our fall, thinking his end will never come. Never say Never. Let's just say for my age I have seen and been a lot of places and situation's that only make you stronger and wiser in life and faith.

The Word from the beginning was not the word we where supposed to receive, instead we received a false word mixed in with the Father's word. For Instance for all you religious fanatics, preacher's, reverend’s and evangelist of religion that is all you are is religious for man created religion's, to separate the word. I thought the Father hated religion any church, synagogue, mosque or temple is not honor to the Father for he created the materials that we use, he doesn't want brick, metal or wood offered back to him he want's love, kindness, selflessness, patience, and most of all Peace not to one but all. Also remember he did not say his way is the easy, he said his yoke would be light and because of the evil one, the Father's way is not the easy way. Remember, He is everyday, everywhere. Even at our miserable jobs if you honor him while you labor, he will honor you back, by helping you with your labor, and when you are finished leave the labor at work and continue with The Father at home. When I say continue, I don't mean hours of meaningless prayer's that has been handed down by hypocrites, or wasteful traditions of dedication. Go back home instead and show compassion to your confused youth because you were ounce their age, Love your spouse or companion and give them kindness and understanding about there day, also most of all show Peace to your neighbor. Remember the Father said “Knock and I shall open the door, ask and it may be granted to you." I knocked and I received the knowledge I finally asked for. I say finally because we sometime ask for the wrong things, and these are word's to remember "The Father only gives us what we need, not what we want". The reason I am sharing these words with you, is not to boast, or to preach but to share with those the directions to get back on path, and to help those in the dark come to know the Light. “How can you know the Light, if you have not walked in the dark?" Just know GOD has released the knowledge once again and that scares a lot of the powers that be. Just remember to read with an open mind but also look out for deception, see what is true, and when you listen, listen as child during a bed time story but also be aware of the evil words that slip through. "Be as wise as the serpent but as gentle as a Dove". This goes true in everyday life, because don't forget wherever the Father is so is the fallen one, trying to get you back into the dark. Like I said before I am no better than any man or women who has sinned but now I can decipher Good and evil not right or wrong, Good or bad because that means evil can be good which it can not. When a child murders another or an animal he is not a bad child he is an evil child and his ways need to be changed or he will be an evil adult. Remember evil asks of you one thing and takes another. Good or God asks of nothing for doing good and in return He rewards you in multiples. The time is coming when the beast will unmask him or herself, when and where we do not know and anyone who say's other wise is not of the truth. "The head of prophesy was cut off with John the Baptist." beware of the false prophets’! They are everywhere, but we have come to except them in everyday life with no help from our religions because evil has entered them from there establishment. Those of us who truly believe with all our heart, body and soul we are going to encounter a multitude of evil against us, but if we are to follow the Father, we are to pick up our cross and follow him into battle. Remember freedom is never really free, not until the evil one is banished and Peace remains with us forever. Also, those who think they preach the word and cast judgment the judgment you cast in His Name will come back to Judge you two fold now and at judgment time. It is not our place to judge, but to spread his message with all our heart because only with love come's Peace. Leave judgment to the one whose it is to judge. But, also remember we are only men or women and we stumble when we fall we ask for forgiveness from the One we fell against as He forgives we must do likewise. I too still have trouble with this, I am only a man but with GOD all things are possible, that's why I say we must learn from our troubles, grow from them and share them with others so they don't fall too. But we have a problem with forcing our way's or point of view, just remember GOD is of free will and anything forced Is not his way. To those religious fanatics who preach his Lovely word's of Peace and produce nothing but bad fruit, hate, murder, pedophile, molestation, and deceit the same to you will these plagues and torments, torment you until it is time. "Remember it is not that which we put into our mouths that defiles us, but that which comes out." This means be careful with the words you chose because the evil one wait's to grab your tongue, like we do with our pets. I have a Mastiff, so his tongue is gigantic and easy to grab like mine used to be. “Also you can not put new wine into old skins else it burst’s.” For those who think they know what this mean’s, it means you can not mix the old law with the new laws, plan and simple so if you want to preach the Fathers New laws. The words I read and repeat I do not twist for my own way , I read and repeat exactly as written I mention this for all those who are wiser in knowledge does not always mean they preach the truth to those who are not, Then same to those will they become dumb, deaf and blind as the one’s they lead astray! Before I leave I would like to share with you something that help’s me make it through, when the world feels like it is against you. One, remember it is not the Father who is punishing you, it is the other guy somewhere you stepped out of the light, you just have to ask him to forgive you, and the Light will shine again, no that doesn't mean confessional's or priest's. If you have a crowed house go in the bathroom or closet and confess He is everywhere, confess in the morning on your drive to work. Two, a simple Hail Mary, Amen, or even THANK YOU, does wonder's, The Father is simple he is not complex, the evil one just makes it complex, long meaningless prayer's just Irritates and upset Him, because they are prayers from the hard hearted handed down and we still sing in sorrow when we should rejoice because he gave all of us a chance for redemption and gave us all the ability to spread the joy, but again be careful of the one's with wicked hearts, because misery loves company and happiness is solitary. Think about that one?. I can be happy when everyone else is miserable, just look up to the sky smile and say thank you, He will know, then you too will be happy again, no matter whether it is rain or shine He can make you giggle as you did when you where a child, if you just open up your heart. Three, just be kind even if it is burning you up inside because I am sure, sometime in the past you pissed allot of people off as I know I have done, this to is hard and if you stumble just ask for a hand and he will reach out His Hand. With this all Good things are Possible with God. And beware around every corner darkness waits to trap you. Before you knock make sure your faith is true, that doesn’t mean you have to know everything just that you are ready to repent to God not man. When you knock ask to be able to See also, but take heed, at first it might seem scary because we fear what we don't know but ounce you grasp what you truly see, hold on tight because the evil one will try to scare the ever living life out of you, just close your eye's look up at the sky and open your eye's and say thank you and then your Faith will be great again. Peace unto those who read and understand and God Bless you on your journey and battle.
It may sound like a bunch of B.S. but if you are true at heart and faith when you knock ask for all the knowledge, because your faith shall prove you. God Bless. Matthew

I have to reject the notion that Jesus was a 'rebel'. I believe Jesus is God. So, how can God rebel against God?

No. WE are the rebels. The leaders of His day had rebelled against Him and against His commands. He taught the Truth - His Truth - and they put Him to death for it, which was His plan all along.

The Bible says God does not change. The Bible says God does not lie. The Bible says Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever. Jesus said He did not come to get rid of the Law, but to fulfill it. He taught the Law. He kept the Law. He died for our sin according to the Law.

If we are looking for a rebel, we should look in the mirror.

The pope stating that catholisim and he is the only way to God is blasphemous. The bible says Christ is. Also stating that a wafer is the body of Christ is false-we are the body of Christ why the bible says the flase church holds in her hand a golden cup of amominations

The pope stating that catholisim and he is the only way to God is blasphemous. The bible says Christ is. Also stating that a wafer is the body of Christ is false-we are the body of Christ why the bible says the flase church holds in her hand a golden cup of amominations

The pope stating that catholisim and he is the only way to God is blasphemous. The bible says Christ is. Also stating that a wafer is the body of Christ is false-we are the body of Christ

The pope stating that catholisim and he is the only way to God is blasphemous. The bible says Christ is.

Another succinct.Yes,you are right.
The Pope,infallible man,should learn about Allah that is believed by someones to be God and how the 'moon deity' of bedouin became The Creator Almighty,another infallibity.
Azar was the servent of Abraham,not his father,and he was isaac not ismael for sacrifice.

Ahh, I see Ahmed has returned to grace us with his Islamic wisdom. Been away talking to Gabriel in some cave around Mecca?? Victoria apparently ran into him in a coal mine outside of Pittsburgh.

talk about succinct! well said ahmed

Typical of all so-called men of cloth. They try to monopolise God as if theirs is the only way to God and no one else can reach God in any other way. Intimidation and misleading simple folk has been the way of most religions sadly. The Pope seems to know a lot about religion but nothing about God.

Jeff T.,

In a global religious climate where too many "believers" of differing faiths look forward to a reward in the "afterlife", your comment urging us to experience the peace and joy of the "kingdom of heaven" NOW is very refreshing.
In my opinion, the central question to the inquiry into an "afterlife" is the determination of the nature of eternity. It appears that most people who are discussing this topic are presuming a "Newtonian" view of absolute time and excluding from the discussion the theory of absolute space-time as espoused by Einstein and Minkowski. While I will not attempt to explain the intricacies of the theories of relativity, suffice it to say that Einstein thought that the distinction between past, present and future is an illusion. Every moment of spacetime is a timeless entity in and of itself.
Eternity may not be endless time but, instead, eternity may be the timelessness of each moment which never "passes away" from the overall existence within absolute spacetime. Therefore, if eternity is timelessness and our conscious experiences are eternal, then our actions and thoughts exist in this timeless eternity.
We have evolved to psychologically misinterpret much of "true" physical reality as Einstein and his progeny have expressed in not only the theories of relativity but also in quantum mechanics.
If all of our conscious moments are timeless and, therefore, part of the great timeless whole or oneness, then how do our thoughts and actions affect our own "heaven" or "hell"? Do our selfish thoughts and actions "send" us to "hell" for that eternal timeless moment? Do our selfless, altruistic thoughts and actions "send" us to "heaven" for that eternal timeless moment?
These questions cannot be fully answered in this lifetime by someone like me. However, if you look at the essence of the teachings of all of the great spiritual teachers throughout history, you will find the answer to the question of how to act and think in every moment of your life to touch a part of the "kingdom of heaven" NOW.

I believe JeffT said it all and very succintly. If the Pope --( and I went to Catholic school)a man with a funny hat and alienating ways wants to push people away, I'm all for his discrimnation. I welcome it, because I think the Catholic Church has served its purpose, and American Catholics see right through him.

I believe JeffT said it all and very succintly. If the Pope --( and I went to Catholic school)a man with a funny hat and alienating ways wants to push people away, I'm all for his discrimnation. I welcome it, because I think the Catholic Church has served its purpose, and American Catholics see right through him.

I believe JeffT said it all and very succintly. If the Pope --( and I went to Catholic school)a man with a funny hat and alienating ways wants to push people away, I'm all for his discrimnation. I welcome it, because I think the Catholic Church has served its purpose, and American Catholics see right through him.

I believe JeffT said it all and very succintly. If the Pope --( and I went to Catholic school)a man with a funny hat and alienating ways wants to push people away, I'm all for his discrimnation. I welcome it, because I think the Catholic Church has served its purpose, and American Catholics see right through him.

Prayer for Tammy Faye:

May God Bless and keep our Sister Mrs. Tammy Faye in His Heart forever where she will be eternally emersed in His Pure Divine Love

Prayer to Tammy Faye's family:

May all of you receive strength consolation and may you feel the warmth of God's Rays inside of your hearts where Your Father in Heaven consoles His Children.

Much Love from one of your sister's in Jesus Christ.

Amen

Way back, when the rebel Jew was hung on a tree as an enemy of Rome and the Jewish Temple, his followers somehow refused to disperse and abandon the message. Three men and one woman are primarily responsible for that -- James, brother of Yeshua and leader of the Jerusalem church; Peter, the 'rock' chosen by Yeshua to lead his church; Paul, the Jewish bounty hunter of Christians who converted to the ideals of the crucified Yeshu on the way to Damascus and preached to the Gentiles; and Mary Magdalene, the 'disciple to the disciples,' the one who really 'got' the message of the young rabbi.

James was ingloriously stoned to death in Jerusalem. His church died after the Roman conquest of that city. Peter allegedly died in Rome, Crucified upside down and buried under what is now St. Peter's Cathedral in the Vatican. Paul too was martyred in Rome, beheaded during the reign of Emperor Nero; The 'other' Mary lived a shadowy life, mother of a Gnostic (spiritual) tradtion, perhaps even mother to the children of the young Rabbi.

Who can claim the true chruch of Christ? Emperor Constantine the Great gave the Roman Pope what is now Vatican City and had the religious leader crown him and his rightful heirs Emperor of the Roman Empire. Since then, church and state became one. The message of Yeshua was tied ingloriously but effectively to property and Empire.

If Pope Benedict XVI truly believes he is head of 'the one' church, then so be it. But the true message of the young and rebellious Jewish Rabbi exists outside of brick and mortar compounds. Christ's kingdom "is not of this world." His church is a spiritual one, and idea, a wind of change acknowledging the value of each person, man or woman, in this life. We can experience heaven right here on Earth if we change our way of living now. THAT young Rabbi would not claim that we should suffer in this life and serve as prisoners in matters of faith to a religious elite in order to achieve salvation in the next life. He would instead encourage us to live the spiritual life now so as to experience the kingdom of heaven right here on Earth, to mingle the flesh with the spirit and celebrate the gift of creation.

We each hold the keys to heaven. It does not go through the Vatican or any other stone, metal or glass building. We are the church, not some academic with a gold and white mitre. Peace!

Tammy Faye Messner passed away in her home on Friday.

Godspeed.

What is with the hostility? You all need Jesus: John 3:16.

Bill Gates,

Thank you for the tip.

Z-BOB, Type your contribution on Word or Outlook as a new note, spell check there then cut and paste to the blog.

David,

Thank you for the comment. After re-reading my post, I wish I had spell check for these posts.
If you are interested in the current philosophical thought surrounding the evolution of consciousness, I suggest the integral philosopher Ken Wilbur and consciousness guru Andrew Cohen. Both of these forward thinkers contribute to a magazine, "What is Enlightenment"
http://www.wie.org
For a view into the fascinating world of the role of consciousness within the enigmatic theory of quantum mechanics, I suggest "The Self Aware Universe" by Amit Goswami.

We must continue to strive toward a future of inclusion instead of division in order to continue our quest toward being fully evolved creatures within our universe. While our divisions as individuals and as groups have served our struggles to survive in a hostile world, we have now evolved to the point where we must strive to educate ourselves about our true nature as our great spiritual teachers have attempted to impart to us. If we do not unite together with the understanding of our interconnectedness and mutual interdependence in a rapidly shrinking world, we may not survive. Again, the pope's narrow view of Christianity further divides the world.

May we one day all find peace in every moment and compassion and unconditional love for all.

I believe there is an exodus from catholic church due to behavior of certain priests ? We teach our children to respect authority figures which makes said behaviors and monetary settlements apearing in the papers a double shame. Are children now living in fear of Clergy ?

Doing research I found an arab man who converted to catholism and is now honored as a saint. Through his psalms he warns of Arians replacing Jews as tools of the Devil. This man happened to be from Syria and he may have attended a Nicine Accord/Counsel.

I also found religious discrimination as any non christian was labelled "infedel". Through the accords all people were ordered to become christians, jews included.

All people brave enough to practice a "true" religion as it was revealed to them by a Creator went underground, meeting in secret. I believe some of their writings, first carried by oral tradition, resurfaced decades later.

Is ashame that early christians not adhering to the official church/state religion did not have the opportunity to flee to the United States of America.

Z-Bob,

Just re-reading your post in my head and then reading it out loud to myself, I think you have the 'OnFaith' record for the most words in one post that have more than 4 syllables. Congrats!

Nice post too.

As someone who is attempting to integrate the essences of the various spirtual traditions and experiences with the radical new theories emerging through theoretical physics and conciousness psychology, I am very disappointed in the Pope's declaration of exclusivity within the Christian community. At a time in human history when the spiritual communities of mankind should be uniting in a pluralistic and ecumenical manner in order for an evolution of conciousness to occur, this type of devolution into a selfish exclusion of others can only lead to more discrimination against "other" belief systems. Is the world not already in a crisis mode due to religious exclusiveness?
Of course, religious institutions of many types suffer from the same attachments to a self entity that cause individual humans to suffer on a daily basis. By promoting their self interest, organizations and individuals separate themselves from all "others". Until our species comes to the full realization that we are not autonomous "things" but instead only part of all things (both physically and conciously), we will be sidetacked from the path toward the ultimate goal of universal Christ conciousness/Buddha nature.
The Pope's declaration is a huge step backwards in the human quest toward the evolution of conciousness.

Religion is a good dance that always circles and does not get to the point. The evil one drives a wedge in our heart and blinds us with pride. We start out to discuss what the Lord says and then we begin to preach to another. If you preach, preach what the Lord said not man.Each man is different so we will all see a point and agree on but still think differently. If you spread joy,hope,love,understanding, and the ability to learn new things, we forget even the Father learned on his journey, at first He thought the Word was meant only for the Hebrews, until the His Father sent him the samarian women that came and asked to heal her daughter. When he said to her "why do you throw the childrens food to the dogs?" her reply " even dogs eat from the scraps of their masters table." Then he replied "not such a greater Faith is in Isreal,go your daughter is healed." So how about we come togther to fix a problem that needs correcting instead of pointing blame because we are all to blame. God Bless and Peace be welcomed always.Matthew

Religion is a good dance that always circles and does not get to the point. The evil one drives a wedge in our heart and blinds us with pride. We start out to discuss what the Lord says and then we begin to preach to another. If you preach, preach what the Lord said not man.Each man is different so we will all see a point and agree on but still think differently. If you spread joy,hope,love,understanding, and the ability to learn new things, we forget even the Father learned on his journey, at first He thought the Word was meant only for the Hebrews, until the His Father sent him the samarian women that came and asked to heal her daughter. When he said to her "why do you throw the childrens food to the dogs?" her reply " even dogs eat from the scraps of their masters table." Then he replied "not such a greater Faith is in Isreal,go your daughter is healed." So how about we come togther to fix a problem that needs correcting instead of pointing blame because we are all to blame. God Bless and Peace be welcomed always.Matthew

I suspect the True Body of the One True Church, in all its smug superiority, will continue to sell its assets in order to deflect the consequences of its predilection for pedophilia.

I suspect the other True Body of the One True Church will shake their collective head at their Big Brother Church and manage to abide tremulously the tenets of secular civilization and squelch the instinct to herd this flock of the High and Mighty Spiritual Descendant of The Rock over the nearest cliff.

I suspect the other True Body of the One True Church of the Chosen By God Above of All Others will continue to deny the godhead of the Trinity and await further instructions from the nearest flammable vegetation or smoldering volcano.

I suspect the other True Body of the One True Church will continue to strap weapons of adequate destruction to itself and piously immolate itself and the infidel alike in order to prove to its Parent Churches that it, too, is worthy of respect in both fervor and body count.

The secular and marginally faithful rabble that remain will continue in defiance of any and all True Churches, ignore these pronouncements at our peril, only to find ourselves engulfed in the righteous flames of the Inquisition as we are dispatched to Hell.

--FIUS

For those interested in an analysis of sayings and ways of the historical Jesus where said analysis, based on the number of scriptural attestations and the stratum or time period of their "recording", separates the actual utterances of Jesus from the embellishments and fiction, see http://www.faithfutures.org/Jesus/Crossan1.rtf and http://www.faithfutures.org/Jesus/Crossan2.rtf

And his spirit is quickly repudiated by the most of the Jahveh's believers. It is received in a new land and culture with different paradigms which have to be harmonized. Here the Church is borning.

The first fact is that Jesus didn't want or have not time to found his own church. He was basicly a reformer and framer. The bearer of a new deal for those believing in Jahveh which was not enough structured to speak about a new church. I repeat. His spirit transcended him. His spirit is the main cause of a new religion and a subsquent universal church.

First I have to say something without any attempt to judge truth or falsehood. It is difficult to reach any conclusion based on an only text like the Bible. But think about it. Does anyone say something to be understood as the listener wanted? If so usually is a means and not the final objective. Second. I am sceptic on this. I think that probably no Church branch has the truth. And I also think that the add of every Church branch has not to be obligatorily the recipient of that truth. The most probable truth about Jesus is short and sometimes hidden. That is the reason to speak about the search of his spirit or intent made probably better in community than alone.

In the midst of a fire or a storm, it wouuld be hard to find a direction or place to begin to help bring relief to the helpless, hopless, lost and the weakest members of the human family.

Where would be the best place to start?

Most would probably start with a prayer.

And If you have any feelings or have a heart for your brothers and sisters who are in need of hellp you would want to help them because something inside of you makes connection - makes community with your brothers and sisters in their time of difficulty.

I did a google search: What is the origin of the word "unity."

The word "community" was given as meaning "come unity"

The word "cum" means "together" among each other.

Community eternally means "to give among each other."

According to the search the word "community" comes from LATIN word "MUNUS" the english translation is "THE GIFT."

We are in the 7th month of our calendar year. 7 is one of the numbers assoicated with Heaven,

Earlier I mentioned that I would make a comment about the Bride of Christ_which is The Body of Christ.

For God Our Father's family according to Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture;

Jesus Christ raised Holy Matrimony to enter into His Sacred Sacramental System, and Holy Matrimony became one of His Seven Sacraments

(Signs from God given to God's children as Gifts which become what their form says they are in order to build up the Body of Christ which is God's Kingdom on Earth which is not of this world)

if a wedding is in a Christian Church there is a Bride and a Bridegroom who get married according to Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture:

The Untion between a Man and a Woman joined in Holy Matrimony best describes by example:

Christ's relationship and Union with His Church - His Bride-His Body. Christ (The Bridegroom) is the Head and His Church (His Bride) is His Body. The Two Become One.

For That which God joins together Let no man put asunder (divide), Separate Divorce

Division like everything else in life begins within
the human soul - the human heart-the human mind.

Sarah chose to INSIST OR FORCE A DIVISION OF her heart and her husband's heart by allowing another woman to partake of their HEART'S communion. WHEN A BROTHER OR SISTER DIVIDES THEIR HEART THEY ALSO DIVIDE THEIR BODY AND THEIR MIND.

IN OTHER WORDS, WHERE YOUR HEART IS YOUR BODY IS WHERE YOU BODY IS YOUR HEART IS

WHERE YOUR HEART IS YOUR MIND IS WHERE YOUR MIND IS YOUR HEART IS

WHERE YOUR BODY IS YOUR MIND IS WHERE YOUR MIND IS YOUR BODY IS

ALL THESE PARTS OF THE WAY ALMIGHTY GOD OUR FATHER CREATOR OF HEAVEN AND EARTH MADE US ARE ONE UNIT
OPERATING AS THEIR OWN FUNCTION

HOWEVER WHEREVER ONE IS FUNCTIONING THE OTHER TWO ARE ALSO FUNCTIONING.

THEY CANNOT BE DIVIDED BECAUSE THEY WERE DESIGNED TO NOT EVER BE DIVIDED.

In ther words Father Abraham's Body was in a way divided

by His wife Sarah when she insisted that He have a child with her servant to ensure he has heirs. THIS WAS A TYPE OF GIVING THE GIFT AWAY IN A TYPE OF MINI DIVORCE IN ORDER TO HAVE ONE'S WAY.

However, Sarah eventually had a child with her own husband, but now she split or divided the original plan of the future of God's Kingdom on earth. Sarah the beloved wife of Abraham.

It is better to hold on to your faith in THE ALMIGHTY GOD OUR FATHER CREATOR OF HEAVEN AND EARTH and

say a prayer when you are going through a storm or a fire on this journey of life.

Becasue THE ALMIGHTY GOD OUR FATHER CREATOR OF HEAVEN AND EARTH will pull us up through His Plan for us even if we can't see the result or the end or the way out.

MOST PEOPLE DO NOT WANT THEIR BROTHERS AND SISTERS TO loose faith in the plan of THE ALMIGHTY GOD OUR FATHER CREATOR OF HEAVEN AND EARTH.

MOST PEOPLE DO NOT WANT THEIR BROTHERS AND SISTERS TO stop believing in the words of truth and love of GOD THE FATHER CREATOR OF HEAVEN AND EARTH

because our human teeny tiny intellects of what we know

(which is smaller than any ATOM that WAS CREATED by THE ALMIGHTY GOD OUR FATHER)

cannot comprehend the mind and the ways of THE ALMIGHTY GOD OUR FATHER CREATOR OF HEAVEN AND EARTH.

In otherwards, if our brothers and sisters stop believing in the words of truth and love through TRADITION AND SCRIPTURE OF
WHAT WAS PASSED DOWN THROUGH WORD OF MOUTH AND THRGOUH THE SACRED WRITINGS OF

GOD OUR FATHER CREATOR OF HEAVEN AND EARTH's PLAN TO SAVE MANKIND THEN

our hearts and minds can become hardened where nothing Sacred would be able to find any open passage and acceptance. We can become internally blind and internally deaf of HEART MIND AND SPIRIT.

BACK to the women of GOD ALMIGHTY MAKER OF HEAVEN AND EARTH

Sarah had a son with her Husband Abraham, but GOD ALMIGHTY MAKER OF HEAVEN AND EARTH tested Abraham to see if he truly Loved Him and trusted Him through the fire and through the storm

Abraham held on to His faith even when GOD ALMIGHTY MAKER OF HEAVEN AND EARTH

ASKED ABRAHAM FOR THE ULTIMATE SACRIFICE OF NOT HIS OWN LIFE BUT OF THE LIFE OF HIS ONLY SON

ABRAHAM WAS READY TO SACRIFICE HIS SON WHO WAS WILLING TO SUBMIT TO HIS FATHER'S WILL BECAUSE ISSACH LOVED HIS FATHER AS ABRAHAM LOVED GOD ALMIGHTY MAKER OF HEAVEN AND EARTH

BECAUSE OF THESE LOVE OF FATHER FOR SON AND SON FOR FATHER BECAUSE OF TRUST IN THE PLAN AND HEART OF THE ALMIGHTY GOD AND FATHER

OUR LORD SENT AN ANGEL TO STOP ABRAHAM FOR SACRIFICING HIS ONLY SON

DON'T FORGET THAT GOD IS LOVE AND HE KNOWS WHICH OF HIS CHILDREN LOVE HIM SINCE HE IS LOVE ITSELF.

NO HUMAN BEING ON THIS EARTH CAN EVER RUN, HIDE TRICK OR DECEIVE THE ALMIGHTY GOD MAKER OF HEAVEN AND EARTH AND NOT EVER PAY A PRICE FOR THEIR ACTIONS

IN OTHERWORDS,
ACCORDING TO SACRED TRADITIONS AND SACRED WRITINGS:

WHATEVER GOD JOINS TOGETHER LET NO MAN PUT ASSUNDER, DIVIDE

BUT GOD'S LOVE STORY GOES ON AND CONTINUES

DESPITE WHAT SOME OF THE WOMEN OF GOD DID TO ALTER THE ORIGINAL PLAN OF

THE ALMIGHTY GOD THE FATHER CREATOR OF HEAVEN AND EARTH.

I'm going to focus on Sarah's son isaac who had a wife who also divided her Heart by choosing her favorite Son and taught him how to deceive His Father Issac

This WOMAN OF GOD WANTED HER SON JACOB to receive what THE ALMIGHTY GOD OUR FATHER MAKER OF HEAVEN AND EARTH

HAD PLANNED FOR ESAU AND HIS FAMILY.

AND WHEN JACOB GREW UP AND FELL IN LOVE WITH ONE WOMAN HE WAS TRICKED BY THE WOMAN'S FATHER

THE FATHER WANTED HIS OWN SELFISH WAY AND TRICKED
JACOB TO MARRY THE DAUGHTER THAT JACOB DIDN'T WANT TO MARRY.

HE MARRIED THE ONE HE DIDN'T WANT TO MARRY AND HAD
10 SONS WITH HER ,

BUT HE EVENTUALLY MARRIED HIS BELOVED ONE THAT HE WANTED TO MARRY AND SHE HAD 2 SONS WITH HER

ONE NAMED JOSEPH AND ONE NAMED BENJAMIN......AND
I BELIEVE IT IS JOSEPH THAT IS THE DESCENDENT ANCESTOR OF
SAINT KING DAVID
WHO IS THE GREAT GREAT GREAT GREAT GREAT GREAT GREAT GREAT GREAT GREAT GREAT GREAT GREAT GREAT GRANDFATHER

OF JESUS CHRIST.

AGAIN, THERE MIGHT BE SOME MISTAKES AND ERRORS IN THIS TIMELINE OF SACRED TRADITION AND THE SACRED WRITINGS(SCRIPTURE) PASSED DOWN THROUGH GENERATIONS.

I might not have enough GREATS OR i might have too MANY.

PLEASE LOOK UP THESE AREAS I COMMENTED ON IN THE CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH FOR A MORE CLEAR UNDERSTANDING.

NOBODY KNOWS WHEN THEIR BROTHERS AND SISTERS ARE READY FOR CERTAIN SACRED TRUTHS

NOBODY KNOWS IF PEOPLE WANT TO LEARN ABOUT SACRED TRUTHS TO HEAL AND TO GROW.

Have a good weekend

If you be Christian, then be Christian, if not, then be not. It is all in God's plan. And I am not affraid.

I will stand up against the gates of hell, to free your soul.

Yes, evil is mad, but I can handle it. I've got God by my side. Who can stand against me.

All I am saying is don't change the words of the bible. They mean different things to different people. And that is THE WAY

If you believe judeo-christian religion(s), you're simply naive and gullible. Go on, believe in the lies you've been told since childhood, indulge in your perpetual infancy.

I imagine the consolation of improbable fantasies is comforting.

"Poor Tammy. All those prayers ignored. I guess god is still pretty mad at her."

dr. phil: tammy faye has a message for you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xOBR-kK0PE&mode=related&search=

oops. wrong tammy faye..

btw- that's dolly parton singing.

Viejita:

Thanks for the kind words you used to describe me.

I would agree with you about this question. I feel like last week's discussion just melded into this week's one.

Candide, Gaby and Mary are all showing what happens when individuals decide what God is all about on their own.
scary.
I'll stick with the Bible, thanks!

Poor Tammy. All those prayers ignored. I guess god is still pretty mad at her.

Ward Martin
You give a clear description of the probable reactions of faithful, well-informed Catholics to Cardinal Levada's five answers. Thank you for that.

This question on On Faith seems to be, for Catholics, just a rephrasing of last week's question. For most non-Catholics -- even the gentle, loving ones like John M. -- it seems to be an invitation to let Papists like us know what's wrong with our faith.

New question, please.

dr. phil: your confidence that there is a pill and treatment for everything is a trademark of your clueless understanding of life.

did you see tammy messner on larry king? there is no pill or treatment for what she is facing. her body is broken but her spirit is so strong -she is able to sit up and speak honestly of her faith. she was an inspiration.

i hope you took a good look. we're all gonna take that journey.

Anonymous says "Once you have crossed over into the light, you will hear God's words everywhere, as if God has opened your ears."

There is a medication and treatment for that.

You will then be tested on your faith, use what you know and you will be fine.

Once you have crossed over into the light, you will hear God's words everywhere, as if God has opened your ears. And you will see God's signs, as if God has opened your eyes. Don't be paranoid, you will begin to see the master plan.

Be real, it is a personal relationship with God, trust IT

I am a Catholic, but a somewhat disaffected one. We are legion. Pope John-Paul, for all his charisma, refused to address contemporary needs in a convincing way. He was Pope No Now comes Pope Benedict, intelligent, well-meaning, kindly...but reactionary. My own view is that Catholicism is passing into an organizational state not unlike that of Judaism, where there is no one, central authority. Instead, the local temple and its rabbi are the focus and locus of faith. For Catholics, Rome inceasingly seems out of touch, negative, and sometimes, as in the case of the nonsense about driving commandments, rather silly. We are endlessly told what we are against, rarely what we are for. Thus, Pope Benedict couched his view on the relationship among the churches negatively: those outside the Catholic fold lack essential features. Perhaps a more prevailing message would have involved highlighting the positive elements of the Mother Church, while also admitting her many errors through history, and encouraging those long separated to return. As it is, however, Catholics must hunker down, locate their faith and worship in the parish, with the pastor, wait out this surely transitional pope, and hope for better days. If they do not come, there are always the parish family and the pastor....

I am a Catholic, but a somewhat disaffected one. We are legion. Pope John-Paul, for all his charisma, refused to address contemporary needs in a convincing way. He was Pope No Now comes Pope Benedict, intelligent, well-meaning, kindly...but reactionary. My own view is that Catholicism is passing into an organizational state not unlike that of Judaism, where there is no one, central authority. Instead, the local temple and its rabbi are the focus and locus of faith. For Catholics, Rome inceasingly seems out of touch, negative, and sometimes, as in the case of the nonsense about driving commandments, rather silly. We are endlessly told what we are against, rarely what we are for. Thus, Pope Benedict couched his view on the relationship among the churches negatively: those outside the Catholic fold lack essential features. Perhaps a more prevailing message would have involved highlighting the positive elements of the Mother Church, while also admitting her many errors through history, and encouraging those long separated to return. As it is, however, Catholics must hunker down, locate their faith and worship in the parish, with the pastor, wait out this surely transitional pope, and hope for better days. If they do not come, there are always the parish family and the pastor....

I am a Catholic, but a somewhat disaffected one. We are legion. Pope John-Paul, for all his charisma, refused to address contemporary needs in a convincing way. He was Pope No Now comes Pope Benedict, intelligent, well-meaning, kindly...but reactionary. My own view is that Catholicism is passing into an organizational state not unlike that of Judaism, where there is no one, central authority. Instead, the local temple and its rabbi are the focus and locus of faith. For Catholics, Rome inceasingly seems out of touch, negative, and sometimes, as in the case of the nonsense about driving commandments, rather silly. We are endlessly told what we are against, rarely what we are for. Thus, Pope Benedict couched his view on the relationship among the churches negatively: those outside the Catholic fold lack essential features. Perhaps a more prevailing message would have involved highlighting the positive elements of the Mother Church, while also admitting her many errors through history, and encouraging those long separated to return. As it is, however, Catholics must hunker down, locate their faith and worship in the parish, with the pastor, wait out this surely transitional pope, and hope for better days. If they do not come, there are always the parish family and the pastor....

Hopefully, we all wrote it down for future generations. Will someone please write a book?

George?

Gaby doesn't exist..

I think IT was trying to fool evil.

The one "true" church doesn't exist.

The bible is a novel, created by throwing together a bunch of old scrolls and then calling it the word of god.

Jesus may have been a good preacher, the son of god he was not. Same goes for Mohammed and John Smith preacher, not prophets.

The bible has no more validity than the ancient Greek, Nordic, or Roman mythologies, or the various faiths of the Far East.

God is not a he or a she, if anything it is an IT. And IT definitely did not create two humans whose offspring went on to procreate in incesteous relationships to populate the earth nor did IT impregnate a married virgin so IT can be born as ITSELF.

All of the faith where invented by humankind's inability to explain the unexplainable and those ideas where then exploited by men to yoke the masses and enrich themselves

Jesus never founded a church but the closest thing to a Jesus Church was the community of Jewish Christians in Jerusalem around his brother James. They were marginalized, dispersed and finally disappeared. Whatever remained went into Islam eventually. None of the Christian churches -- Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox or Mormon -- are really about Jesus. They are Hellenistic churches for people who want not the real Jesus but a mythological figure invented by Paul.

John,

Once you give up control, you will realize that this world is not real. And we are all playing our part.

Mary:
WHAT???

John, So your saying that Paul's agenda interupt's God Words? If Paul was a true believer He gave up control to God.

Mary:

Amanda was right to insert "all believers" for clarification. Paul was a believer, and he was writing to believers, so the "we" referred to believers. And, the "body" he was discussing was the Body of Christ, again all believers.

I liked Amanda's post.

James McDonald:

Can you show me where Jesus was 'tolerant' of those who refused to accept the truth? It's not in my Bible.

I love how people make Jesus whatever they want Him to be and then tell Christians how we're not acting like their made-up Jesus.

Amanda :

We (all believers) are many parts of one body and not one part of the body

How dare you substitute "We" as All believers. I think it meant all people.

Now that the evangelical foray into politics is coming to an unspectacular end, i for one am grateful. For too long a majority of Americans have seen their civil rights and personal faith pushed aside and in some cases taken away in the name of christ. America has become a great country because of our Constitutional separation of church and state. If Jesus were to show himself today he would be ashamed at what these evangelicals have done and tried to do in his name!

Good ridence to all of you!!

James

James

I am so sick and tired of those who say things like "there is only one true religion", or when evangelicals push their way into politics and government with the intent of forcing their narrow beliefs onto the public at large. Our Constitution specifically puts a wal between religious faith and governmental policies that apply to the public. I like a majority of Americans believe in God; whether there Jewish, Christian, Muslim, budist, or whatever other religious faith. But history has proven that when religion is allowed to create laws that affect an entire population, that war and death will follow. In the United States our country has become the greatest in the world specifically because we separate religion and politics. But over the last 15-20 years that has changed. evangelicals have permiated politics with the specific goal of creating a Christian nation, regardless of what the majority of Americans really want. Most Americans want a separation between church and state, but these evangelicals don't care about the majority. They want every American to live their lives under the direct governence of the bible, and they could care less if a huge majority of us don't want that.

There is not only one religion, but many that believe in many different things. It's this diversity that has made our country the country most want to live in. Yet, just recently i read where a bunch of young russian christians who came over here to get away from government interfering in their lives and there beliefs, protected a law that would stop descrimination against minority groups. What a bunch of F--king hypocrites. But then most evangelicals are hypocrites. They cheat on their wives, steal taxpayers money, take lobbiest money to protect cigarette companies, alcohal businesses, and corporate tax loopholes and other abuses. They still support a failed war in Iraq. They continue to allow corporations to pay practically nothing in taxes while raping the middle class. Yet these same self-rightious hypocritical republican evangelical congressmen, senators, the vice-president, and the president himself continue to lie to the American people about everything. Bush and Cheney continues to try to hide all their lies and misdeeds from the American people, and cheney has the added gaul to tell us he isn't apart of the executive branch even though it says so in article 2 of our Constitution. Do these lying bastards really think were that stupid? Well, maybe some of you are, but most of us are not!! The republican evangelical revolution is coming to an end, and the only real thing they accomplised is a 5-4 conservative supreme court majority that they will lose once a Democratic President and Congress is elected in 2008. In the next 8 years 2 Justices will be leaving and they will lose there short lived majority. In the mean time they can do a lot of damage to our civil rights, and our personal freedoms!!

Jesus Crist would be ashamed of what these evangelicals are and have done in his name. Jesus cared about the poor and the hungry, NOT about money and wealth. Jesus believed in tolorance, NOT prejudice against those who don't believe in what the evangelicals do. Those of you who believe that the evangelicals are right and don't believe in the separation of church and state are NOT true Americans and they all should be ashamed of themselves.

Now that the end is near for the evangelical push into politics I for one am excited for our future!!

James

The Pope's remarks reiterating the supremacy of the Roman Catholic Church strike me as immature and not the message the world needs to hear.

Last one. And now a materialist answer -among others- to Plato's cavern. Man, demiurgo, puppets and bonfire are in the same universe specially because they can interact. Men tied are limited in movement only because the author -Plato- tied them. Their neck was able to turn and look behind. Moreover. If the bonfire wouldn't exist then the remaining scenario was unuseful to reach the desired conclusion. Therefore fire is basic. And fire is really the movement itself. What is the first principle but the fire itself?

I have to say that I am a Christian and believe the Bible describes the church like this:

Romans 12:3-5 -For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

4For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:

5So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

Acts 10:34 - Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons.

We (all believers) are many parts of one body and not one part of the body is more important than the other, except for the head, which is Jesus the Christ.

Also, if God is no respector of persons (meaning He shows no favortism) then that would mean to me that the Roman Catholic Church holds no primacy over the "church".

Since I believe the Word of God over the word of man I would say this is correct and the Pope/Catholic Church is dead wrong.

This is a short version -and so full of imprecision- of Plato's cavern. In a a cavern there are several man tied to their sits being impossible for them to look behind them. They only see a front wall. And there are also several 'demiurgo' in form of man behind them who manages several puppets which produce shadows in that front wall by means of a bonfire. Well. The puppets are the Ideas living in universe of the Ideas. Real and full of detail. 'Demiurgo' manage them to produce that shadows in the wall which is the sensible universe. What are shadows but pure deceit?

The Pope is reminding us that he is a Papist. Is that news? The run-of-the-mill 5-Solas reformed protestant needn't pay heed.

However, I think that Ratzenberger's doctrinal assertiveness forces Catholics to make unnecessary choices that they may not wish to make. This is a true pity. And worse, it legitimizes asking obnoxious questions of Catholic politicians, something we should be past by now.

He would stop the world to meld with you

Nasty, sniping question! Ever heard a rabbi question his judiasm? Question whether maybe it
wasn't right?
Or any other religion?
Who wrote that ugly, transparent question?

Nasty, sniping question! Ever heard a rabbi question his judiasm? Question whether maybe it
wasn't right?
Or any other religion?
Who wrote that ugly, transparent question?

Be real, it is a personal relationship with God, trust IT

Yes, and the jews think it's just fine if Spanish Chritians or Algerian muslims come to live in Israel? Is it even legal?
And the rabid evangelicals think that confession and worhsip of Mary is just alrighty?
Shut up.

Yes, and the jews think it's just fine if Spanish Chritians or Algerian muslims come to live in Israel? Is it even legal?
And the rabid evangelicals think that confession and worhsip of Mary is just alrighty?
Shut up.

Yes, and the jews think it's just fine if Spanish Chritians or Algerian muslims come to live in Israel?
And the rabid evangelicals think that confession and worhsip of Mary is just alrighty?
Shut up.

Meanwhile the catholic church holds better the first scholastic -aristotelian- intent. Both sensible and unsensible things have to be explained by the science reaching 'what is, only because something is'. The Ontology and also the Theology. Metaphysics. But Aristotelian physics is deprecated soon because its imposibility to reach importants empiric realities which shows precision and certainty. The Church made his own stronghold based on 'magister dixit' and the infalibilty of the Pope. All this happened joined to a paralell history of earthly power by Kings and nobility managing inside the Church.

Assyrian Christian:

Our churches are praying and working to help you find sanctuary.

I encourage the believers here to take this matter to your community and find some small way to enter into this work.

God's blessings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaNG6OF3pQE

The Pope's reiteration that Roman Catholicism is the one true Christianity (religion)strikes me as a very immature statement and not what the world in these times neads to hear.

Empirism vs. neoplatonism. This is basicly what is neccesary to know for understanding the Protestant evolution. As I wrote a main protestant influence was St. Augustine of Hyppo. First manichean, finally christian and deep neo-platonist. While the Church was surpassing neo-platonism trying to mix beliefs and Aristotelian philosophy as a whole, giving a chance to the material world and the movement, then Empirism appears. William of Ockham is certainly his major promoter in the anglo-saxon dom. Unsensible things doesn't exist because all we can imagine is related always to sensible ones. It is the negation of the universe of Ideas which is basic for any neo-platonic understanding. The sequence God-Ideas-sensible universe and emanation as aquivalent to the platonic 'demiurgo' is broken. And this was from now the constant Protestant fight. Neoplatonism vs. Empirism.

Joel B - you say, "Jesus's resurrection is the proof that He is God" then you say "All any of us need to do is believe this"

I wonder - where is the proof - and if there is proof, why is belief required?

Amen, Nicole, I could not have said it better than that. If you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Savior of the world, that means you are a Christian and a member of the Body of Christ, the church. Not a profession of faith in a denomination or trying your best to be a "good person." We could never be good enough to stand in the presence of the perfection that is God, without Jesus's sacrificial suffering and death on the Cross that paid the penalty demanded by God for our sins. Jesus's resurrection is the proof that He is God and that He is victorious over sin and death. All any of us need to do is believe this and put our faith in Jesus, and we have found the path to Heaven. Jesus said, " I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6) Unfortunately that is too easy for many to accept it as the path to Heaven. We want to work for our own salvation.

You've just been granted 3000 years

Assyrian Christian,

Not one post yet has touched me and pierced my heart as the one you posted.

I think at times here in America, we forget that our Christian brothers and sisters are dying for their beliefs in a Muslim country somewhere. I sincerely thank you for holding on to the truth in times of despair. I wish you the best out there and will keep you in my prayers.

Your post reminded me of the other day when I saw a guy walk into my work with a T-shirt that had a huge cross on the front. It said I love Jesus. On the back, it said "This T-shirt is illegal in 51 countries". You just reminded me of that and how important that means. Thank you.

God bless you

TO An Assyrian Christian from Iraq:

Words cannot fully express my reaction to your post. I often pray for Christians throughout the world who are being persecuted for their faith. I sincerely thank you for your moving post, which ought to center us on Christ. Thanks.

Hi, E Favorite:
I think I am being consistent, at least, in getting my information about both Jesus and Peter from the Bible.
I guess I am the diametric opposite of CCNL: Instead of looking for the story behind the story, I look at the story we have before us and focus on that. It's all God has given us, I think.

When did the church become the Catholic Church? When did the Bible become the Bible?

The Bible is a historical document,but unfortunately tells us nothing about the formation of the early catholic church. (I write catholic because that is how the Nicene Creed describes Christ’s church: one, holy, catholic and apostolic church).

Many misconceptions here tossed around as history: such as “there wasn’t any Catholic Church until the Council of Nicaea [doesn’t supply the date].”

But the church never sprung full blown into history and neither, pace pentacostalists, did the Bible. Both were fashioned by successive councils, generating much controversy and debate along the way. The Bible, as we know it today, probably took its final form in AD 397 at the Council of Carthage? This council was much influenced by Augustine of Hippo, the greatest intellect of that age and a seminal figure in the history of the Church. Pope Benedict writes that Christian communities were celebrating Mass and the eucharist at the time of the writing of the gospel of John, but the Catholic Church of Western European History probably emerged somewhat later: with the agreed Bible and the theology of St Augustine.

Here is a list of the successive councils along with their attempts to construct an authentic book of revealed truths:

http://www.bible-researcher.com/canon8.html

"PS - The children of Adam and Eve had incest."

So did the Noah gang!

Hi, John M - I was the "anonymous" - sorry about that.

I didn't comment on the historicity of the bible, I am wondering more about evidence for Jesus vs the evidence (or lack thereof) that you cite for Peter.

As an Assyrian Christian from Iraq who still speaks the language that Jesus Christ spoke 2000 years ago and can read the bible as it was originally written in Aramaic. Before it was translated into Greek, then into Latin, then into English. I find it sad to hear (if true) that the Pope and/or Catholic Church believes it is the true and only Church that represents Jesus Christ.

St. Thomas brought Christianity to Assyrians and Assyrians accepted Christianity 200 years before the Roman Empire made Christianity its official religion.

With the facts provided above. I can justify that the Ancient Assyrian Church of the East. that still exists today, is the true Church of Jesus Christ.

But as we all know EVERYONE who "professes Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior are all EQUAL in the eyes of God. There is not one Christian denomination that is better then another.

So my final message is for everyone, please do not insult me with who is a real Christian and who is not. We Assyrians in Iraq and Middle east are dying for our Christian beliefs that we have held for 2000 years and refusal to convert to Islam. Unfortunately Assyrian Christians in Iraq do not have the luxury of arguing theological ideals, were busy trying to survive.

http://www.assyrianlife.com

Anon:
Why isn't the Bible considered historical? Why do some people 'write off' the Bible, when it is, in fact, historically accurate?

John M - you say "There is no evidence Peter was ever in Rome..."

What evidence, outside the bible, is there that Jesus was in Jerusalem, Bethlehem or Nazareth?

AMVIENNAVA:

Thanks for the positive comments.

You wrote:
“St. Peter founded several churches. Why should Rome have primacy?”

My answer would be that Peter was NOT the founder of the Church at Rome. I will give you some Biblical evidence.

First, Paul wrote to the Church at Rome. In it, he says that he has been praying that he could ‘at last’ come to Rome (Romans 1:10), that he has been wanting to go to Rome to 'have a harvest' (1:12), and that he is ‘eager to preach the Gospel' to those at Rome (1:14). Later in his letter, Paul writes:
“It has always been my ambition to preach the gospel where Christ was not known, so that I would not be building on someone else's foundation.”
If this is true, Paul would not have wanted to go and “preach” and “have a harvest” in a church already founded by another apostle.

Paul closes his letter by greeting 26 people in Rome by name. Peter is not mentioned. If Peter were the leader of the church at Rome, it would be odd, even rude, not to greet or even mention him. Paul’s first greeting is to a couple named "Priscilla and Aquila”, and to “the church that meets at their house.” Paul had met these two Jews from Rome when the Jews were driven out of Italy by the Emperor Claudius. (Acts 18:1-3) They became friends of Paul, they worked with him, and they traveled with Paul on his missionary trip. So, it seems that these two believers, who had been trained by Paul, were leaders of at least a local church, in their home, in Rome.

In his letter to the Romans, Paul repeatedly refers to his audience in Rome as ‘gentiles’. In his letter to the Galatians, Paul explains that he was appointed to preach to the Gentiles while Peter was appointed to preach to the Jews. (Galatians 2:7-9) He even states in that passage that Peter agreed with this fact.

There is no evidence Peter was ever in Rome, except possibly that he was taken there to be executed by Nero.

I hope this is an acceptable answer to your question.

Augustine & JohnM: An interesting debate, but JohnM has the upper hand, if you will. Augustine, don't be too literal with the English. If you want to argue about the meaning, you must go to the Greek of which the Latin is a translation of which the English is a translation.

JohnM correctly pointed out a problem with the translations by showing that 'rock' is meaningless because the Greek has gender. Another problem is 'you' where in Greek there is a singular and a plural form, whereas in English the same word is used.

The end result is that Peter was 'first among equals', not supreme.

A question I have had for a long time that noone has answered is 'St.Peter founded several churches. Why should Rome have primacy?'

halozcel- your scholarship was completely wrong- linus isnt the "pope" after peter-

so ive been exposed to your lax research before-

simply making up new charges with the same faulty lack of sequence or reference isnt exactly credible.

Let's all get our hands off each other's throats for a minute and settle down. There, now doesn't that feel better? Regardless of what you believe, religion is a man-made institutionalization (long word...) of faith so people of similar belief have a place to gather and honor their faith. No where in the Bible is there a step by step instruction manual on how to conduct church services. I do not believe that there is one true church, as there is no posssible way that an organization run by fallible humans could get everything right. My feelings on it, after spending time in churches of mulitple denominations, are so long as the basics are there (Jesus is God's only Son, he died to save us from hell, etc.), the rest is semantics. It doesn't really matter if your Bible is King James, NIV, NLT, ESV, NRSV, AMP, NKJV, or whatever. It doesn't matter if you wear a suit or jeans to church. The only thing that matters is your heart for the will of God. If you have that right, all the rest is whatever flavor you prefer.

I think anytime church that worships a man conceived out of wedlock, born from a virgin, who broke Old Testament laws by healing on the Sabbath, who defended the prostitute when others would stone her, who hung around 12 men and who never married can't be all bad.

It's clear from this: who needs heterosexuality.

PS - The children of Adam and Eve had incest.

Here's my favorite post : "i am amazed at the number of non catholics who want to tell the catholic church how and what to believe."

Good grief............as if the catholic church hasn't been telling us HOW to ***LIVE***.

LOL

The Pope is as a true believing Yankees fan. In that world view there is but one true faith - the Yankees. The problem comes when the Yankees fan meets a Red Sox fan. Both are true believers but they must each consider the other a bum unless they can see the equal value of the other team. Can the Pope respect Red Sox fans, believing as he does?

Per your “Muslims Speak Out” news release, I would like to request a complete list of participants be e-mailed to me. Thanks in advance!

Again, the important point:

There is no religion in the Spirit State aka Heaven. The Gate is open to anyone of good standing with or without the assistance of B16, the RCC and/or Latin Masses.

Jon,

References to all your statements about the RCC????? And please no references to "skin-head" sites.

Here is some very important historical information regarding the Catholic church:

A) The church was formed approximately around 500 A.D. and at its conception invited many different religions at the time to be apart of its new church. The name Catholic comes from this gathering of different faiths.
B) Also Pagan and sun worshippers were invited to be apart of this new church. This is where the influence of rituals and idols has a big influence.
C) Also the Sabbath day was changed to Sunday to accomodate the sun worshippers. Because this day of worship was documented as an historical account, the Catholic church to this day have, in keeping with this, admitted they changed it and give their own reasons for it. The fourth commandment was ommitted from their Bibles "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it Holy..." and consequently they print up different Bibles then everyone else.
D) For hundreds of years the Catholic Church did not allow the publication or distribution of the Bible. This is called the dark ages. Until Martin Luther, the first protestant, came to stand up against them and started a revolt for being able to own and obtain your own Bible without being killed for it. This was the start of the protestant movement.
E) The Church of England followed after the Catholic Church and went through villages looking for non-beleivers and arrested and punished people who did not go to church. The pilgrims left England for this very reason and established the beginnings of the United States and this is why we have a seperation of Church and State to this day.
F) The Catholic Church has secret documented plans as published by an excommunicated high priest (Maliki Martin, the book is called "The Keys of this Blood") to again rule as the only world wide church and will instigate laws through governements around the world to help enforce their dominion.
G) The Catholic Church is greatly feared by true and faithful Christians for their practices and blasphamous arrogance.

Here is some very important historical information regarding the Catholic church:

A) The church was formed approximately around 500 A.D. and at its conception invited many different religions at the time to be apart of its new church. The name Catholic comes from this gathering of different faiths.
B) Also Pagan and sun worshippers were invited to be apart of this new church. This is where the influence of rituals and idols has a big influence.
C) Also the Sabbath day was changed to Sunday to accomodate the sun worshippers. Because this day of worship was documented as an historical account, the Catholic church to this day have, in keeping with this, admitted they changed it and give their own reasons for it. The fourth commandment was ommitted from their Bibles "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it Holy..." and consequently they print up different Bibles then everyone else.
D) For hundreds of years the Catholic Church did not allow the publication or distribution of the Bible. This is called the dark ages. Until Martin Luther, the first protestant, came to stand up against them and started a revolt for being able to own and obtain your own Bible without being killed for it. This was the start of the protestant movement.
E) The Church of England followed after the Catholic Church and went through villages looking for non-beleivers and arrested and punished people who did not go to church. The pilgrims left England for this very reason and established the beginnings of the United States and this is why we have a seperation of Church and State to this day.
F) The Catholic Church has secret documented plans as published by an excommunicated high priest (Maliki Martin, the book is called "The Keys of this Blood") to again rule as the only world wide church and will instigate laws through governements around the world to help enforce their dominion.
G) The Catholic Church is greatly feared by true and faithful Christians for their practices and blasphamous arrogance.

I think He meant that the king and queen will always be bound by your religion.

Augustine:

I'd like to address the 'holes' in my argument you mentioned.

Here is that passage again:

"13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?"
14 They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
15 "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17 Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." 20 Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ."

Again, in this context, it makes no sense that Jesus is appointing Peter ruler over the Church. You mentioned the "keys to the kingdom". What do you think that means? Is Jesus giving Peter the right to decide who gets into heaven? I don't think so. That goes against the Gospel itself. Those who believe and follow Christ are members of the Kingdom. It has nothing to do with Peter. Do you know what keys are used for? They OPEN DOORS. Jesus is making an example of Peter and saying that those who recognize Jesus as the Messiah and Son of God, and follow Him, will be admitted into the Kingdom.

Let’s look at the whole chapter (Matthew 16). In verses 1-4, Jesus notes that the Jewish leaders did not interpret the signs of the times properly. If they had, they would have recognized Jesus as the promised Messiah. In verses 5-12, Jesus warns his followers not to follow the teachings of the Jewish leaders. In the text I am quoting (13-20) we see Jesus revealed as the Messiah and Son of God. In verse 21-28, Jesus explains that He will suffer and die. Now that He has established His identity, it is time for Him to fulfill His role as Messiah and die for His people’s sins. Peter decides he won’t have anything to do with that, and he says, “Never, Lord! This shall never happen to you!" Peter was mistakenly looking at the Kingdom as a human kingdom. Jesus responds, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men." Okay, in the previous passage, Jesus is supposedly naming Peter Pope and Head of the Church, with the power to decide who goes to Heaven, and now, a few minutes later, Jesus calls Peter “Satan”?

I think the Catholic interpretation is faulty. This idea that there is a hierarchy of power in the Church, and that Jesus gives people authority over others, displays errant human thinking. Jesus never talked about His Kingdom in the way earthly kingdoms are managed. In His Kingdom, He said the first would be last and the last would be first.

And, Augustine, what do you think He meant by "loose" and "bind"?

Oh, they have been reading, how do you think WWIII was going to start?

i am amazed at the number of non catholics who want to tell the catholic church how and what to believe.
here is a flash - look at islam and give them a nudge once in a while.

I have been told I will not return. The adverage time for a human cycle is about 1500 years, so I think, if we can survive we will figure it all out before 1500 years. Stop killing each other!!!!!!!

I think, therefore I am

You have got to learn, not to totally rely on books, rely on your heart. read the books, but realize that they are only written about the knowlege gathered so far. And they were meant to inspire.

As long as we do not argue and hate each other, we've got plenty of time. It is just that people are tired of waiting and they think destroying people will speed it up, but it will only slow you down.

After we talk about Atheism, let's talk about sociopaths.

Let the bad guys win every once in a while. hollow victories, of course.

Obviously you want an answer so I will give you one. Of course people are not going to be happy about the Pope's reiteration. But some will be happy. I suppose what the Pope will do is adapt to how much flak he gets. If most of the Catholics agree with the Pope then he will probably take the line of reiteration. But if he gets too much flak from outside his church (not to mention within) he will probably back off. This is largely a poll question--and a political one as well: find out what the masses think. It is not a question designed to engage thought. I think it sad that so much of life is find out what the masses think then adapt to them to sell to them, to control them, to keep outworn structures on top of them, to stifle creativity, to--Ahh, why go on? I am making a fool of myself. A bad week for me personally--struggling badly with the problem of atheism. But I did put a decent essay in order. Turn the questions back to atheism. We need to work the problem out and not give up despite often being unclear, sloppy as to formulation of answers, flat out wrong, etc. If you want a consensus on something, develop a consensus through a protracted meditation on the relationship of atheism to faith. If you can stand people being creative and working on major problems together.

I can tell you that God would create the most profound differences, so much so that your blood would curdle just to open your heart.

This is probably the worst question so far and an insult to human intelligence. A mere poll question essentially. If the purpose of this forum is to just take polls so current systems adapt to better entrench themselves (the Pope wearing Armani and driving a Porsche and drinking Evian on commercials) then we had better just give up as to intellectual life. Please ask questions to engage human thought. Bring up the problem of atheism again--so we continuously compare and contrast between religion and atheism (that dynamic so important to faith). I have been working on some stuff and getting more and more coherant about the problem (with major setbacks of course--such a difficult problem!). Please, more seriousness.

Thanks.

Augustine: **.."I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
If you study your bible, you know that this was prophesied in Isaiah..22. Hence, Jesus being the rock conferred authority onto Peter who would be Patriarch of the Church in Roman.**

And Pentecostal Protestants interpret that "you" as a plural, and claim that this verse is where Jesus gives all believers the powers to work miracles such as healing and exorcism in his name.

No if you don't stop bickering, you will soon destroy each other and the entire earth. Then we will start all over again with an ameba on another planet.

If you can not stop bickering you will all go to hell.

To John M.

You have a number of holes in your explanation..for instance.."I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
If you study your bible, you know that this was prophesied in Isaiah..22. Hence, Jesus being the rock conferred authority onto Peter who would be Patriarch of the Church in Roman. There would be five other Patriarchs leading the communities of Asia Minor(2), Jerusalem(James), Antioch and Alexandria. What is essential here is to understand the authority Jesus left with Peter, the head of the disciples...see Acts 15..and the church...btw..see 1TM 2: "The church is the pillar and foundation of the truth"...that' what the bible says...St. Paul. Apostolic succession would apply to the Catholic and Orthodox Churches which trace their roots(east&west) back to the apostles. You should consider a more in depth bible study and the writings of the Early Church Fathers to enhance your understanding.

To John M.

You have a number of holes in your explanation..for instance.."I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
If you study your bible, you know that this was prophesied in Isaiah..22. Hence, Jesus being the rock conferred authority onto Peter who would be Patriarch of the Church in Roman. There would be five other Patriarchs leading the communities of Asia Minor(2), Jerusalem(James), Antioch and Alexandria. What is essential here is to understand the authority Jesus left with Peter, the head of the disciples...see Acts 15..and the church...btw..see 1TM 2: "The church is the pillar and foundation of the truth"...that' what the bible says...St. Paul. Apostolic succession would apply to the Catholic and Orthodox Churches which trace their roots(east&west) back to the apostles. You should consider a more in depth bible study and the writings of the Early Church Fathers to enhance your understanding.

To John M.

You have a number of holes in your explanation..for instance.."I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
If you study your bible, you know that this was prophesied in Isaiah..22. Hence, Jesus being the rock conferred authority onto Peter who would be Patriarch of the Church in Roman. There would be five other Patriarchs leading the communities of Asia Minor(2), Jerusalem(James), Antioch and Alexandria. What is essential here is to understand the authority Jesus left with Peter, the head of the disciples...see Acts 15..and the church...btw..see 1TM 2: "The church is the pillar and foundation of the truth"...that' what the bible says...St. Paul. Apostolic succession would apply to the Catholic and Orthodox Churches which trace their roots(east&west) back to the apostles. You should consider a more in depth bible study and the writings of the Early Church Fathers to enhance your understanding.

Nice post Walter Poe. Very nice.

With the imprecision any syntesis involves, we could say that the main potestant factions are heirds of the Augustian understanding while catholics evolved to scholastic one. Neo Platonism amd explicit manicheism vs. Neo-Aristotele understanding. Certainly St. Augustine of Hyppo was previous to St. Thomas of Aquinas. But both ones have extensive external influences out of the Mosiac understanding involving Jesus of Nazareth.

I am not surprised that the Vatican issued this paper. The Vatican has been trying to separate its self from other churches for a very long time. Catholics refer to themselves as Catholic vs Christians. I find this particular interesting. Although I enjoyed the Holy Fathers new book he recently published but I do think he is more of a theologian then a true Pope.

The only surprise was before the Vatican releases a document which separates the Church more it should have consulted other books which Rome has already approved in the past. "Models of the Church" which is an excellent book and used in a lot seminary schools written by Cardinal Dulles states there is no single perfect church; not even Rome. All Churches are the body of Christ. I think the POPE forgot to talk with Cardinal Dulles before they wrote that paper.

The best thing that ever happen to the Church was the split. The Church as different parts is really a whole complete Church with the Core of the Church being Christ and we as different Churches are his Hands, and Body telling the story so others may know HIM.

Certainly. Both catholicism first and then protestantism were schism. Both were caused by very earthly motives using theology as a weapon. So much hate to catholics only because Mary virginity, saints, sacraments, pugatory and particular judgement is not credible. The real foundation is other. Protestantism wanted a Church based on neoplatonism, manicheism and Agustinian fatalism. But catholic Church was moving to Aristotelian Aquinism -a great Plato's critic- introducing the concept of movement which was every day a more evident enemy of fatalism. Yes. Fatalism is something like a priest saying 'convert, convert right now, sinners, or God's anger will condemn you forever since your death' without any previous attempt to see if they are really plenty sinners or being still only under the original sin. And this foundation is only partial. Earthly power by Kings and nobility inside the Church was the more evident trigger for the schism.

I found the Pope's statement offensive, vain, antiquated and unnecessarily divisive for the 21st Century. Most of all, it's disappointing. Pride in one's faith is one thing, and in private many believers think their faith is the best or will have such a conversation with someone else in their denomination. That's fine, and to be expected, but the Pope is a public figure and the head of his church, and his words have great influence regardless of how wise or unwise they are. The implication is that non-Catholic Christians are not true Christians, or "full" Christians. Faith in Jesus does not require allegiance to any given institution, and there are plenty of very good reasons, historical, theological, social and moral not to be a member of the Catholic Church. I won't go through all of them here, but the Pope's statement adds one more to the list. Morality, reason and "godliness" have no necessary connection to a position of authority or power.

This apostolic succession thing is quite weird. Especially as noted that the catholic church wasn't well...the catholic church until about 250 years later. But here's another fun fact that puts a dent into apostolic succession.

At one time in catholic history there were three popes. Gregory XII (1406-15), Benny XIII (1394-1423), and Alexander V (1409-10). I like Gregory's first act as pope. He sold his tiara for 6000 florins to pay off some gambling debts. I guess shooting dice in the Vatican doesn't pay off. Anyway, Alexander was poisoned by John XXIII (1410-15) and then he took over Alex's position as pope. There we have in history three popes at once. So not until the Council of Constance did Gregory become the "official" pope. Even though later on this same councel deposed him as pope as well. Big confusion in catholic history, and I think that line of succession was quite interupted. So I think I'll stick with Jesus as the final High Priest according to the Bible.

Believer: "I am catholic and was always taught to respect my neighbor as we all stem from the same beliefs, we jsut have different names for them. Perhaps we should all make time to educate our children and this argument over what is the "true" religion will disappear."

Sounds like a plan to me. I would only add that we also teach them to respect those whose beliefs don't appear to have the same roots as ours.

Everyone's areguments are very well presented and it is obviouse that we have a lot of educated readers. However, bottom line is that every religion is meant to unite "groups" of people based on whatever ideas that religion supports. In doing so, this will ultimatly isolate others from their group forcing them to join, start new groups, or join other groups. if tolerance and acceptance is not taught then it will not be learned and thus begins the distrust, the predjudice, and the hate for others not in your group. I am catholic and was always taught to respect my neighbor as we all stem from the same beliefs, we jsut have different names for them. Perhaps we should all make time to educate our children and this argument over what is the "true" religion will disappear.

I think that whole story was corrupted by evil anyway. It is God who wants you to learn and evil that wants to keep you ignorant. If we got kicked out of paradise it was because we were too fearful of God and couldn't be the people God knew we could be.

Halozcel,that makes a lot of sense. I've wondered before if some of those "people" weren't actually personifications of groups or even events. For example, it didn't make sense that Adam and Eve were only two physical people who were responsible for the generation of the entire human race. If that were so, then there would have had to be some very heavy incest going on in the beginning. "Adam" and "Eve" as simply representatives of all primitve humanity makes much more sense. It also makes a bit more sense of the ridiculously long life spans attributed to some of these folks. What human being lives 900+ years?

If the Pope wants to be the leader of the Christian world, which is obviously what he fancies himself to be, then he might want to concentrate on cleaning his own house first. I am a native of Los Angeles, and from what we see here on the West Coast, in light of a $660 million child sexual abuse settlement, the Catholic Church has a long way to go before Benedict can consider his organization as "the true church." Better consult with Cardinal Mahoney on this one. This could leave a mark on the Church for years to come.

If the Pope wants to be the leader of the Christian world, which is obviously what he fancies himself to be, then he might want to concentrate on cleaning his own house first. I am a native of Los Angeles, and from what we see here on the West Coast, in light of a $660 million child sexual abuse settlement, the Catholic Church has a long way to go before Benedict can consider his organization as "the true church." Better consult with Cardinal Mahoney on this one. This could leave a mark on the Church for years to come.

Lepidopteryx,

I am listening FED Chairman Bernanke,but I try to respond you.

Abram means 'exalted father'
Abraham means 'father of nations'
In terms of latest archeologic findings,Abraham was not a 'person',but the name of a tribe.Especially Samual Noah,absolute specialist on Sumerian archeology claims so.
Isaac,son of Abraham from SArah and father of Jacob.
Jacob,son of Isaac and Rebakah,his nickname was Israel that means one who wrestles with God.
Persecuter Saul became St Paul who didnt meet Jesus.

VICTORIA,

Islam says that Abraham was called on to sacrifice Ismael.That is Wrong.He was Isaac,not Ismael.
Islam says Azar the father of Abraham.This is Wrong.Azar was the servant of Abraham,not his father.His father was Terah.
Islam describes the Trinity(I dont say 'validity') Father,Son,Mary.This is Wrong.
2.62 contrdicts with 5.65.
16.67 contrdicts with 5.90 (about wine) such as many others...

First of all, you correct at least 50 contrdictions,then advise,recommend,suggest to someone else.I thank you.

Pope Benny, I believe the Bible says "separated" not isolated. Why are you condemning everyone?

Victoria,

Your belief in myths does not stop with Islam. Have you come to grips about that "pretty wingie talking thingie" communicating with Mo??

Most if not all the OT is also myth and embellishment and it starts at the beginning:

As per National Geographic's Genographic project:

https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/

" DNA studies suggest that all humans today descend from a group of African ancestors who about 60,000 years ago began a remarkable journey. Follow the journey from them to you as written in your genes”.

"Adam" is the common male ancestor of every living man. He lived in Africa some 60,000 years ago, which means that all humans lived in Africa at least at that time.

Unlike his Biblical namesake, this Adam was not the only man alive in his era. Rather, he is unique because his descendents are the only ones to survive.

It is important to note that Adam does not literally represent the first human. He is the coalescence point of all the genetic diversity."

The OT time line begins with Adam being "created" about 6000 years ago.

See also: http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

It is a good example of reaching a conclusion from a false premise.

Any study of Catholicism will show that it has followed an evolutionary path from the time of Christ up to the present. Therefore what we see today or at any other time in its historical development is simply the sum total of the organization's evolutionary development.

The fact that there was a mutation in 1517 does not mean that the organism (organization) split into a main branch and a "defective" branch. Rather, it simply meant that where before there was a single vine, there were now two shoots.

The fact that there are now many branches does not negate the argument. It might be true that some of the branches may not survive, but that is simply the result of this process. Any organism, if it is to survive, must measure up to the needs of the time.

No, Benedict is wrong. Although I remain a member of the Catholic Church, it does not mean that I buy a Pope's view of reality. I speak English, but that doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with French, German, Italian, or any other language. English is simply the language I grew up with.

Victoria,

Thanks for the clarification.

Christ, and Christ alone, is the head of his church. All who profess Christ are the "church"
on earth; his church. Someone said that religion is man seeking after God, while Christianity is God revealing himself to man. All that divides us on earth will be mere "trash" when we stand face to face.

The only question is "who is Jesus of Nazareth?" How we answer that one question is what we are betting our eternity on. True worshipers are those who worship in spirit and truth.

Let's focus on Jesus and get past this religious nonsense.

Christ, and Christ alone, is the head of his church. All who profess Christ are the "church"
on earth; his church. Someone said that religion is man seeking after God, while Christianity is God revealing himself to man. All that divides us on earth will be mere "trash" when we stand face to face.

The only question is "who is Jesus of Nazareth?" How we answer that one question is what we are betting our eternity on. True worshipers are those who worship in spirit and truth.

Let's focus on Jesus and get past this religious nonsense.

also there were 2 simons, simon and simon peter(also known as peter)

thats the danger of the internet- i always say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing-

a quick google makes experts of the laziest of researchers-

just look at john m.'s post-

jacob became israel because he fathered the 12 sons who became the 12 tribes of israel-

saul chose to become paul, possibly to distance himself from his past of persecuting christians.

peace all

butterly woman-

david was being facetious.

anonymous calimed that peter was the 'fisrt pope' of the catholic church.

the catholic church didnt exist until at least a maximum of 300 years after the death of peter, assuming he lived to 90 years old, at the council of nicaea in constantinople.

linus was a bishop- (there was no such thing as a pope yet) the son of a chiefton, and since the church as a body didnt exist yet, (according to the catholic church) it is a real stretch to ascribe any papacy to him.

thersitz :

"Seems like Berlinerblau crawled back into his ivory tower to sprinkle more notes by the hour on how secularists are so dour, unimaginative, boring, lacking power."

I Know...he's sooooo predictable, isn't he? >;-}

Halozcel: "Peter was the Jewish man Simon."

Thanks - I never quite understood all the name-changing business, even when I was Christian. Abram became Abraham, Isaac (or was it Jacob?) became Israel, Simon became Peter, Saul became Paul...it never really made much sense to me.

I have many names - the one on my birth certificate, the one my family calls me (which is simply a shortened form of the one on my birth certificate), and the spirit name I chose for myself, but none of them REPLACES another - they are just used at different times. I didn't even change my last name to my husband's when we got married.

Now it seems the Democrats have claimed this is God's country. Is that a joke? or are they just trying to get us all killed by angering other countries?

That is no foriegn policy building block I know about.

Seems like Berlinerblau crawled back into his ivory tower to sprinkle more notes by the hour on how secularists are so dour, unimaginative, boring, lacking power.

Correction,

Peter was the jewish man Simon.
I am watching the stocks and EUR-USD 1.3825,I am confused a little.

Saint Linus was the second pope after Peter(jewish man Saul).

But isn't that pretty much the sentiment of these groups across the board -- that only their group truly represents Jesus? And isn't that why we have 3000 strains of Christianity? And isn't that why the soil of Europe is littered with the bones of religious conviction? Isn't that the reason why Christians are so supportive of the Iraq war?

What happened to Jacques Berlinerblau?

To R WILSON and ANONYMOUS:

Okay. I'm going to "read my Bible carefully" and show you what I see.

Hmmm...I don't see any verse that shows that Peter is going to be the head of the church. I do know this verse is often used as evidence:
"And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it." (Matthew 16:18)

The common assumption is that Peter is the rock on which Jesus will build His Church, but if we read it "carefully" we would go back to the Greek and see that the word "Peter" is "PETROS" which is masculine singular and the word for the "rock" Jesus will be using is "PETRA" which is feminine singular. Since the gender of these two words is not the same, Peter, a man, cannot be a feminine rock. If Jesus is referring to Peter as the rock, the word "rock" would be masculine. In fact, the Greek word for "rock" is feminine. The only time the masculine word "Petros" is used in the Bible, it refers to the apostle Peter. It would appear Jesus is referring to something else as the "rock" on which the Church will be founded.

To understand this verse, we must read it in its context by reading the entire passage:
"13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?"
14 They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
15 "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17 Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." 20 Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ."

This passage is about the identity of Jesus as the Messiah, the Son of God. Jesus tells Peter this truth is not something he knew on his own; it was revealed to him by God. That is true for all of us. We would not recognize Jesus as our Savior unless God revealed it to us. Notice that the passage ends (verse 20) with Jesus instructing his followers not to reveal yet who Jesus was. If the ‘rock’ were Peter, that verse would say that Jesus told them not to tell anyone Peter was going to be the Pope.

In this context, it would make no sense at all that Jesus was going to build His church on Peter. The theme of the text is Jesus as Messiah/God. To say that Peter would be Pope would be irrelevant to what was happening in this conversation. And, why would Peter be rewarded for declaring something that he did not come up with on his own, but which God taught him?

In this important passage, Jesus is saying that the truth that He is the divine Messiah is the foundation of the Church. The universal Church is built on Christ, its Cornerstone, and what unites all Christians is the universal truth of the Gospel: the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is indeed ironic that the Catholic "church" is missing that universal truth, and clinging instead to Peter, a mere man, to name itself the "one true church".

I hope this is helpful. There is A LOT of other evidence in the Bible that Peter was NOT the Bishop of Rome. Maybe I will write that up and post it soon.

Anon: **Perhaps it would also help to look into what Jesus said to Peter (the first Catholic Pope).**

I thought Peter was Jewish. You know, like Jesus was.

Goliath?? I'm rolling on the floor HJ. Good one.

Tony

Well and truly and profoundly said. The gods thank you.

peace
henry

Aren’t “real” or “true” Christians people who follow the teachings of Jesus Christ? Dogma has worked for hundreds if not thousands of years to keep Christian religions separate— where is Christ in that?

John Paul II worked among many Christian religions to build bridges not widen the crevices that keep us apart. Jesus himself dinned with and entertained those that his followers felt were better left to themselves. He practiced an ideology of love and acceptance, which in turn made his followers the largest group on this earth. If anyone considers themselves devotees of Jesus, “true Christians,” aren’t we required to acknowledge and abide by His lessons?

All humans are fallible and entitled to personal opinions, divinely inspired or not. The truth is none of us will know what is “true” until we stand before the face of God. Until then, it is incumbent upon all Christians to remember that Christ said that the greatest commandment is to love. Christians would do well to practice this without disclaimers. Scattered sheep are easy prey.

Aren’t “real” or “true” Christians people who follow the teachings of Jesus Christ? Dogma has worked for hundreds if not thousands of years to keep Christian religions separate— where is Christ in that?

John Paul II worked among many Christian religions to build bridges not widen the crevices that keep us apart. Jesus himself dinned with and entertained those that his followers felt were better left to themselves. He practiced an ideology of love and acceptance, which in turn made his followers the largest group on this earth. If anyone considers themselves devotees of Jesus, “true Christians,” aren’t we required to acknowledge and abide by His lessons?

All humans are fallible and entitled to personal opinions, divinely inspired or not. The truth is none of us will know what is “true” until we stand before the face of God. Until then, it is incumbent upon all Christians to remember that Christ said that the greatest commandment is to love. Christians would do well to practice this without disclaimers. Scattered sheep are easy prey.

mr wilson

you are a deluded true believer. and you are pretty stupid to get into a textual biblical arguement with David. Who do you think you are? Goliath?

there IS nowhere in the bible where you find justification for the RCC's claim to be the One True Church.

everyone knows the Mormon Church is the One True Church.

Mr. Wilson, I would love if you could show me in the Bible where it says that the one true church is the RCC. Actually I would forward you to Revelation 17 to see a precise description of your church.

David!!!!

Clearly, the Pope after Peter was Anonymous!!!!

I believe that the Pope is perfectly correct. If you read the Bible carefully you will conclude that the Catholic Church is indeed the true Church Our Lord established; it is the true Christian Church; all other christian denominations are just deviations of this true Church. People do not understand this because they never read the Bible carefully.

good one david

catholic means universal, and everyone is within all-encompassing. obviously the problem lies with how it appears in-print, namely capital letters

So who was the pope after Peter, Anon?

I can't help but read the comments and laugh. Everyone wants to talk and "knows" exactly what they are talking about; but they are all just opinions. Perhaps everyone should look into the history of the Catholic church and their church to see the differences. This may help explain what the Pope is referring too. Perhaps it would also help to look into what Jesus said to Peter (the first Catholic Pope). Every religion may be created by man; but how many can say that they were created by a man who was taught by Jesus? Of course every faith has problems and the Catholic Church is no different.

Thursday next says,

The Pope is absolutely correct and I am glad we have a Pope who speaks the truth and not a bunch of politically correct babble. If you don't like it, tough! Go to another ecclesiastical community. And Go to Hell while you are at it!

Is this the face of catholicism? I thought faith in Christ changes people. Makes us better. More loving. I guess this catholic (Thursday Next) hasn't recieved that salvation that the RCC offers otherwise he/she might just change their attitude. Sounds like your kind of angry that you put in all that work and still have to purge those sins huh? Wouldn't it be nice to just have faith in Christ and be saved, skipping the purging because Christ's death was sufficient enough? That's what the Bible teaches!

Looking back on History can tell a lot about where the Pope is coming from with this declaration. The RCC has always been a
control freak from as early as Rome to that of Luther to the 21st century. It has and will continue to be his job to act as second
to Jesus Christ, for that is how the RCC interprets Jesus' declaration to Peter (i.e. he is the stone). The Pope is just believing
the lie that his faith is based upon and this is not going to harm "ecumenical relations" for what did we expect?! This manifestation
just goes to show us that nothing has happened (that is to say a reformation in the RCC) and most likely Martin Luther would still
be condemned as a heretic and most likely be put to death. This is the world we live in, but at least the Pope is talking a stand and not
compromising his faith and views, it is those who are tolerant that are making our culture so demoralized.

Though i am a "baptist" i will always respect the Pope and look up to him as a leader.

There is a heaven and a hell and those who do not accept that fact are being arrogant if the truth.

Regarding the Pope's comment, first let me clearly state that I have nothing against him as a person (for I do not know him 'personally')but...it's just like anything else in our culture today. It seems he is trying to make a 'hard sell' for the Catholic church. I do not agree with his comment and I think that it is an abuse of his position and 'authority' to make such sweeping statements. I am, however, a follower of Jesus Christ and based on His teachings as recorded in the gospels there is no mention of a certain denomination that He is partial to or strictly affiliated with. He does, however, make an unequivocal statement that He is 'the Way, the Truth, and the Life'...and whosoever will may come! I try to keep my focus on Him....as men/people will unfortunately often muddy the picture and distort the Truth to some degree or another. I am forever amazed that He has entrusted human beings with His message.....

The Pope infuses new meanings into a few terms used in the Bible.

That statement last week did not say that Protestants were not Christians; it said their churches were not true churches. Here, the Pope misunderstands the Biblical term "church", which consists of all followers of Christ throughout the world. So, it is impossible for someone to be a Christian and NOT be a member of Christ's Church.

That statement also said that the Protestant churches lack the "means of salvation". Here, the Pope misunderstands that the 'church' provides salvation. The church is NOT an organization. As I just stated, it is the worldwide assembly of believers, all of whom are ALREADY SAVED. I agree that the non-catholic church I attend does not provide salvation, but neither does the RC church. Salvation is through Christ alone.

That statement also said that the orthodox catholic churches are not quite right because they refuse to recognize the Pope as 'head' of the church. Here, the Pope misunderstands that the Church has a human head. No. The Head of the Church is Christ.

Interestingly, this "one true church" claim conflicts with the fact that the Catholic church teaches that Christ is not the only way to heaven, and that Purgatory is available for those who don't get it right in this life. So, what is my motivation to join the 'one true church' if there are other ways to heaven? The Vatican is making no sense. That's what happens when infallible men speak of their own volition.

If anything, this shows what a divisive force religion creates.

The future does not belong to men who shuts their door and create their own little world with their own little rules. Progress is rewarded to those who can extend their empathy beyond our superficial similarities.

Self -> Family -> Friends -> Local community -> Nation -> Species -> ???

Where are you on the above spectrum?

Fortunately, the core claims made by the Pope (or any religious figures for that matter) are largely irrelevant, as they have the same chance of being actually correct as anyone who randomly pulls anything out of their ass.

The Pope is absolutely correct and I am glad we have a Pope who speaks the truth and not a bunch of politically correct babble. If you don't like it, tough! Go to another ecclesiastical community. And Go to Hell while you are at it!

OMG: The pope is almost as arrogant and "w!"

You're going to Hell!!! NOOO, You're going to Hell!!

when i was in sixth grade my catholic friend bobby morrissey and I spent a lot of time telling each other...
"you are going to hell because you are not a Catholic/Mormon"

we had lots in common. we thought our tradition was the only correct tradition.

the pope is acting like the 12 year old boy I and bobby were then.

Grow up. there is no heaven. there is no hell. It's all a big dominance fight. just like the apes.

Consider that religion is based on fear - fear of going to hell if you don't believe and do as you are told. The Pope states that the Catholic Church is the only true church, therefore the only sure way to heaven. Non-Catholics take their chances believing in other religions.

Every church preaches pretty much the same thing -so what is a person to believe?

Well, once again, this pope seems to think Catholics have a corner on God and on Christianity. Remember the teaching in grade school that "God is Everywhere"? Perhaps this pope should realize that being a good Christian is far more relevant than being a "good Catholic".

Wayne245 :
I admire your attitude. You are the kind of catholic i can do business with.

unfortunately, the Pope is returning us to the "authentic " catholic doctrine that the RCC is the ONLY true church, and hence ALL the others are inferior (they won't get you salvation, what could be more basic than that).

my church, the Mormons, believe the same thing. can't both be right. that is why i am an ex mormon.

keep your faith. don't bow to Benedict.

love ya
henry

So, Is Wayne245 the name of your sect?

I am a Catholic and proud of it. But I do not adhere to the policy that my religon is the "true religon" and others not. What about the Native Americans (Indians)? They lived close to and off of the land, water and sky. They hold it in reverence. I do not think they, or any other religon, is inferior to mine.

I am a Catholic and proud of it. But I do not adhere to the policy that my religon is the "true religon" and others not. What about the Native Americans (Indians)? They lived close to and off of the land, water and sky. They hold it in reverence. I do not think they, or any other religon, is inferior to mine.

The Pope is a good, little Bavarian from the Hinterland (backwoods)(Marktl am Inn, pop 2,700). His parents were deeply religious people who indoctricated him and his siblings from birth.

Having grown up in the vicinity, I know quite a bit about the arch-catholics in Bavaria, especially those from small villages where life revolves around the church and Herr Pfarrer (the priest).

His stance on Latin lithurgy and his "one true church" does not surprise me at all. I don't think this will be the only accomplishments throughout his papacy. I am sure he will take the church back at least 40 or 50 years when all was well in his part of Deutschland.

I visited my family last year to see my brother get married to his fiance. Her family is the pinnacle of catholicism in their little Bavarian burgh. The way they acted with the election of Radzinger to Pope was incredible to watch. They had tears in their eyes, because they were soooo proud that one of theirs became the Holy Father. And they left me without doubt that he was the man they hoped for to lead the church back to what it should be in their eyes.

Oh well, to each their own. I just hope my brother will be able to shield my beautiful, little niece at least to some decree from their sanctimonious lifestyle.

Steve from Lyons, CO,

"After all the work of the 1962 Vatican II reforms, after the astounding admission - finally, a thinking Christian leader - from Pope John Paul II that evolution is not incompatible with Catholic theology, we get Pope "Eggs" Benedict, Nazi Youth member and soldier in Hitler's army, who's decided to take the Church back to medieval times."

Don't be a Jackass! Ratzinger was a whole 18 years old when the war was over. Every German boy was in the Hitler Youth and every German girl was in the "Bund Deutscher Maedchen" because they didn't have a choice. And all male children from the age of 14 were forced to defend the fatherland because all the men were either dead, in prison camps, or on the front.

Trust me I am no friend of Ratzinger, but making sweeping statements like that shows your ignorance of German history.

Wow! After all these years, wow! One would think that leaders of Nazi Germany had suddenly decided to rise again, wow! Just think, one might think the same church used by nations to wipe out native populations around the world to rid them of sinners would have learned by now, wow! Wow, the Pope is using what he calls love, just like the word hate, wow! Wow, the same Church of Christ that paid out hundreds of millions of dollars in the U.S. alone because the leadership of that Church of Christ allowed the holy men to rape little children and then claim to be the holy of holy, Wow!

Conflict between Christians on doctrinal matters is further proof that a Messiah has not arrived. So you can just keep on fighting over who is on the right path.

Some things never change, eh? Theologically, Benedict's pronouncement has no basis in Scripture. Click here for a gentle dissent: http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=12121

Why has nobody mentioned that this view isn't new in the Roman Catholic Church? It's been their view pretty much for their entire history, even since the often mis-understood Vatican II. They just stated it in a rather more public way, to emphasize the point of Roman Catholicism's uniqueness to the Roman Catholics who had over the years gone a little too far in ecumenical relations with the Protestants. It was an internal document, people!

It strikes me as uninformed, bigoted and arrogant. Not as surprising, though, coming from him.

Joe Ratzinger is entitled to his opinion the same as anyone else.

jacques coffe :

If there should really be a God of any king, he has a hell of a lot of explaining to do!

Explain what? Man created religion. Man has been responsible for all the problems in this world by trying to CONTROL everything.

I saw the face of God once. A face without a body

"hermit- i hope you've compiled grandpa's little jokes- he was a hoot and a half."

Sadly most of his jokes were told in two parts; the main body in English and the punchline in "Plautdietsch" (Low German.) When pressed for translation he would insist "it's just not funny in English...and he was usually right.

But he was a beautiful, wise man. A Mennonite preacher, but full of genuine humility and possessed of an open, curious mind, a generous all embracing spirit and an unforgettable laugh.

I'll take that over any dogma or doctrinal argument every time.

Regards

A Hermit

After all the work of the 1962 Vatican II reforms, after the astounding admission - finally, a thinking Christian leader - from Pope John Paul II that evolution is not incompatible with Catholic theology, we get Pope "Eggs" Benedict, Nazi Youth member and soldier in Hitler's army, who's decided to take the Church back to medieval times.

Of course, if he succeeds, the Church will have to allow abortion again, as it did until 1869, until "quickening" - the first movement of the fetus.

What a fascist. The irrelevant CC becomes downright laughable. Who cares what the Pope says about every non-Catholic? Heck, we've been listening to born-again oatmeal brains since early Reagan telling everyone that everyone's method of accepting Jesus isn't...crazed and hyper-sacred enough for these loonies. No one takes them seriously.

Go, Bennie. The Church's tired, dogmatic stance on most issues has been losing members for decades now. Even of those Americans still Catholic, they practice a "cafeteria"-style faith, ignoring what they think is stupid - like the ban on birth control - and trying nonetheless to enjoy the majesty that Masses inspire in its faithful.

It's the Catholic Church that made me an atheist by age twelve; I've since mellowed into an agnostic, by strict definition: One who believes that any Ultimate Reality is unknown, and unknowable.

No deity necessary. And guess what? My guess is just as valid as any religious person's, because NO ONE will know what happens after death until they die - or they may know nothing forever. Anyone religious - that is, in this case, believes in a supernatural being, a god - is simply expressing an opinion.

I've always wondered, if Jesus was so amazing in his lifetime, why did no one write anything down while he lived? I think Jesus, or a conglamorate of good men and philosophers that turned into Jesus, had great ideas for working and living together.

Jesus never mentioned homosexuals, abortion or the Republican party. That was made up by future bible writers, like St. Paul the Misogynist (or President Bush, the God-Connected). Who cares what a guy like "St." Paul thinks, when he obviously had deep-seated issues with women or anyone enjoying sexual pleasure?

Benedict also wants to speed up the process of sainthood. What a hypocrite. Is he speaking ex cathedra, or simply as a whiny fascist pope?

Have fun, Catholics. It's sort of like being part of the Flat Earth Society these days.

Once eveyone reaches the highest level in this world, and they take the time to truly understand the power of love. The true nature of this world will present itself and life will actauly be magical. How long will this take? It has been fortold as 1000 years, but I think it depends on how fast humans progress.

All religions are the bane of the world.
They were made up for people to explain the unexplainable.
Certainly they were all meant to CONTROL others.
If there should really be a God of any king, he has a hell of a lot of explaining to do!

All religions on the bane of the world.
They were made up for people to explain the unexplainable.
Certainly they were all meant to CONTROL others.
If there should really be a God of any king, he has a hell of a lot of explaining to do!

All religions on the bane of the world.
They were made up for people to explain the unexplainable.
Certainly they were all meant to CONTROL others.
If there should really be a God of any king, he has a hell of a lot of explaining to do!

All religions on the bane of the world.
They were made up for people to explain the unexplainable.
Certainly they were all meant to CONTROL others.
If there should really be a God of any king, he has a hell of a lot of explaining to do!

Poor old man..he's gone senile or probably has been that way for pretty much his entire lifetime since he has a closed mind and parochial thought process!

This statement strikes me as rather arrogant. I think that most Catholics won't listen or agree with him.

The recent remarks by Pope Bene-Bin-Ladin make abundantly clear that religion is the true e-v-i-l of humanity, and every true believer shares a part of the blame.

The recent remarks by Pope Bene-Bin-Ladin make abundantly clear that religion is the true evil of humanity, and every true believer shares a part of the blame.

The recent remarks by Pope Bene-Bin-Ladin make abundantly clear that religion is the true evil of humanity, and every true believer shares a part of the blame.

How can one think that the measure of a person's worth is NOT
What good she does in the world.
How kind and loving she is to her fellow humans.
His abilities and talents and the hard work he puts in to make but most of them

BUT INSTEAD His worth is determined by

What mythological story about Heaven and the afterlife he believes

and therefore what church he gets his sacraments done in?

Does this make sense?

Joe Schmoo from Idaho who happened to get baptized in the Mormon or Catholic Church is going to the highest level of heaven

But Gandhi is not good enough.

Wow someone still quoting the Jesus Seminar! It's amazing to me that individuals walking through a Barnes and Nobles tripping over a book by Marcus Borg and thinks they have found a actual piece of real scholarship. The Jesus seminar is nothing more than a group of wannabe scholars conjuring up a mystical account of what they perceive Jesus as having said. I can't remember, but I don't think any of them were actually mentioned as being on the side of a hill hearing Jesus speak in real time. The gospels are written witnesses of the life and sayings of Jesus. Believe them or not they are the only sources that we have to his actual life, and teaching.

Try reading Ben Witherington's book "The Jesus Quest." He has fun with the Jesus Seminar.

If you really want some good reading trying Barth's commentary on Romans.

lepidopteryx, your story reminded me of what happened to me in northern california- i was working with migrant farmwrokers and went to their church wit them every week, a catholic church in spanish- with my rudimentary spanish i communicated to someone that Jesus(ata) was jewish- it almost caused a riot!
the people were really really angry at that suggestion! i mean, look at his picture!
with those blonde ringlests and blue eyes, it was clear he was a mexican.
luckily it was a small congregation and the priest affirmed what i said calming everyone down, but even though the priests was the last word- and not to be questioned- you could feel the disbelief like a thick and outraged blanket.

hermit- i hope youve compiled grandpa's little jokes- he was a hoot and a half.

ms. muawwad- i really like your line about sitting all day in a garage doesnt make you a car.
if you dont object, id like to use it sometime.

the panelists ask, "does anyone care?"

well, i kind of care about the low level of effort that goes into their formation of questions to present-

In response to Marsha,
I so much agree with your comments. That is what people don't understand. All of the rituals is not what makes us closer to God. Doing his will and submitting ourselves to his word is what makes us Christians. Not some "MAN" who thinks he has all of the answers. Even if he didn't write it he approved it so it's coming from him because he is the head of the Roman Catholic Church.

Now I attend a non-denomination church. We are Christians who believe in the Triune God. Because the Church building/organization is run by man it's bound to have it's issues. But will I give up going to church because of that. No simply because I am there to hear the word of God from my man or woman of God. The individuals who he has set in charge may not carry out things exactly how "I" may want them but as long as it's done decently and in order and according to God's purpose and plan, then I am all with it. We have to be in agreement to make impact.

The church doesn't make us righteous. But my thoughts, actions, my standing with God is what makes me righteous. You can't judge me by the church I go to. However people are a product of their environment so if you stay around negative thinkers and preachers and teachers of the Word for long you will begin to sound exactly like them. So you should remove yourself from any church that isn't speaking what you believe. As simple as that.

So Marsha since the Catholic church didn't do it for you, you have done exactly what you should have done. Have you tried to find a good bible believing church that teaches and believs as you do? There are a lot out there and if you pray to God he will direct you.

So many people look for the "TRUE" church instead of looking for the True God.

Nicole said it the best. The church is the body of believers. Not any fallible organization of men. This is in your Bibles catholic brothers and sisters! To make the claim of being the only true church is to deny God's Word. I sure wouldn't want to argue what God said.

I think the Catholic Church's statement is exactly what's needed for ecumenical relations. How can we get to know each other better if we can't be honest with each other? If other churches would release the same type of documents explaining their doctrine on the church, we will be able to see more clearly what we share in common and what divides us.

P.S. as long as we're concerned with truth, the document wasn't issued by the Pope. It was issued by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and written by William Cardinal Levada. All Pope Benedict XVI did was put his stamp of approval on it.

I think the Catholic Church's statement is exactly what's needed for ecumenical relations. How can we get to know each other better if we can't be honest with each other? If other churches would release the same type of documents explaining their doctrine on the church, we will be able to see more clearly what we share in common and what divides us.

P.S. as long as we're concerned with truth, the document wasn't issued by the Pope. It was issued by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and written by William Cardinal Levada. All Pope Benedict XVI did was put his stamp of approval on it.

How do you know if you are on the highest level of human Consciousness?

Some people think it is when the world that is warm, sun shining, nothing works and there are no people. So you think you are the only one who made it. You are not there yet.

You should see the something similar, but there are many people and all your needs/wants are anticipated and provided to you before you know you want it. It seems like magic, and you can only visit it you cannot escape this world until everyone is ready.

Growing up Baptist, I was taught that the Baptist church was the Church as Jesus had intended it to be. In fact, to hear many of the pastors, Sunday School teachers, etc. talk, you would never have known that Jesus was Jewish! I even attended a so-called Seder once at a Methodist church (at the invitation of a friend who was a member there), in which the pastor took every element of the ritual, and explained how it was REALLY about Jesus. For example, the wrapping, hiding, and finding of the afikhommen (sp?) was actually representative of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus, despite the fact that the Seder was around long before Jesus' birth. I lost count of the number of times the man made the statement "and here's another place where the Jews don't understand their own ceremony." I told my friend not to EVER invite me to that church again.

It seems that most faiths think they have the one and only Truth. If there were only one Truth, then it seems that everyone (or almost everyone) would be aware of it after so many million years of human existence. And yet the number of spiritual paths people follow continues to increase, not consolidate. I'm no longer Christian, and in my studies of various forms and aspects of spirituality, I have found a few that acknowledge the fact that there are many paths to the Divine, and that their path is one of them, but not the only One, and I have much respect for that attitude.

While Catholicism may be the only path that works for His Eminence (if that is not the correct title, someone please let me know), it is not a path that works for everyone, not even for all Christians. He is no more the only mouthpiece for God than any other believer is.

Jesus became very frustrated with religious groups during His time on earth because they tried to control people through authority and division. The Pope's comments are illustrative of the behaviors Jesus disdained. His comments disregard Jesus's command "Do not judge one another." I believe there are good people and there are bad people and all religions have their fair share of each. Attempting to exhault one religion over another promotes divisions and not unification. Going to the Catholic church did not make me anymore religious than sitting in a garage all day made me a car.

In fact, my faith is stronger since I stopped going to the Catholic church. Before, I went to church for one hour per week and that was it until the next Sunday. Now I begin each day with morning prayers and give myself holy communion. I then proceed with 1-2 hours of Bible study each day and at the end of the study, think about what I am going to do differently as a result of the lesson.

This personal, meditative process has lead me to a very personal relationship with a living God, and we converse all day long. This experience is far more richer than anything I ever learned in Church. It is not something I can do for just one hour per week and be through with it. Every day, I look forward to my personal time with God and the lessons He will be teaching me. The greatest lesson that God has taught me is that faith is an inside job, it is transformational and it changes you in ways you never expected and, most importantly, that God still speaks. God's messages did not end with the last chapter of the Bible, which was written for all people, and not just Catholics. A profound message that I received from God told me that faith and religion are not synonyms, but people who want to control us want us to believe they are. God also instructed me that Diversity does not have to lead to Adversity. The Pope should be ashamed of himself for promoting such baseless and personal theology. The Pope's comments are grounded in Authoritarian rule and God's comments are grounded in transformational love and guidance. I guess even God has labor problems.

The basic problem is the Catholic pope "cult" culture that has grown over the centuries i.e. only the pope "talks" to God and the pope cannot error in matters of dogma.

Hmmm, well history and realism are catching up with cults of any kind.

One definition of a cult:

A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader

e.g. 1 )Muslims and their Mohammed, and the clerics, ayatollahs, imams and "angel freaks" who follow the illiterate, warmongering, hallucinating Arab's koranic ways 2) "Jesus Freaks" like Bob Jones' followers 3) "Latin Mass /Catholic only/"angel loving" Filiciders brainwashed by the likes of B16 and the previous all white male, "celibate, "aarpie", European "charismatics" called popes.

Then there are the foundations of this pope "cult" culture.

What reality and history now conclude:

Jesus, the illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter possibly suffering from hallucinations, has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth. Analyses of his life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists)via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and pagan sects. These embellishments also include all the scriptural references to papal authority and Rock foundations.

e.g. See Professor Crossan's book, The Historical Jesus:

John 14: 26 not historic ( 62-. Spirit under Trial: (1) 1Q: Luke 12:11-12 = Matt
10:19-20; (2) Mark 13:11 = Matt 10: 19-20 = Luke 21:14-15; (3) John 14:26.)

Matt 16: 18-19 not historic (73- Who Is Jesus?: (1) Gos. Thom. 13; (2a) Mark
8:27-30 = Matt 16:13-20 = Luke 9:18-21; (2b) Gos. Naz. 14; (2c) John 6:67-69.)

1 Timothy- not written by St. Paul (See Crossan’s “In Search of Paul”, Harper, San
Francisco, 2004, p.105)

2 Peter 1:20
Since Schillebeeckx basically ruled out prophecies by concluding God does not know
the future, one can rule out the infallible nature of this verse.

Also from Raymond Brown’s, An Introduction to the New Testament, 2 Peter was
the last canonical work written i.e. ~ 130 AD, author unknown. Tis a bit dated for use in claiming infallibility plus the verse is not from Jesus or Peter but some possible remembrance of a scribe.

From another source:
Also think about the logic (or lack thereof).
“I believe the Bible is inspired.” “Why?” “Because it says so.” Would you or anyone let that logic pass if it came from the followers of any other book
or person? “I believe x is inspired because x says so.” Fill in the blanks:

x=Pat Robertson
x=the ayatolloah Sistani (sp?)
x=David Koresh
x=the Koran
x=B16

Protestants, of course, have their own biases and all think they are the only "real" Christians, and the distinction is usually something trivial (like the One Suspender Amish who think they're more humble than the Two Suspender types...)

My Grandfather used to tell the joke about the man who gets to heaven and is taken on a guided tour; heaven is full of joyful people singing and praising God, but in one corner a high hedge separates one group of saints from the others. "Be very quiet here" tha man's guide instructs him. "Those are the Mennonites; they think they';re the only ones here."

You may of course substitute your own denomination and use the joke yourself. Grandpa wouldn't mind., although he would insist that, like the Bible it's much funnier in the original German...

Regards

A Hermit

I totally disagree with this statement. The bible clearly says that those the profess Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior are truly his desciplies indeed. So that means that you can be Baptist, Methodist, Episcopalian or whatever. The true Christians are those that Follow Christ. And honestly, most of the catholic churces I have been to, I wouldn't even know that Jesus had anything to do with it until they did Holy Communion. Otherwise it would appear that Mary and the Saints were reverenced more than Jesus. So honestly this statment is totally incorrect and I think he needs to recant that statment and make sure he knows what he is talking about.

The bible doesn't say anything about the style of worship that will dictate how you are the true church of Christ. The name on the building doesn't determine that. I am the church. If you have received Jesus as Lord and Savior you are the church and you are the true church of christ. The church is in you. We are the Body of Christ.