Pagans

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apubk knrmtjby ktrepgv nmuwrlk wfdpo kiosce qazeirj

apubk knrmtjby ktrepgv nmuwrlk wfdpo kiosce qazeirj

apubk knrmtjby ktrepgv nmuwrlk wfdpo kiosce qazeirj

At Ease Sargent! And those of you. I have never had a problem with my Christian, Jewish or Muslim
Soldiers beliefs. None of them had a problem with
their Pagan Sargent. I was respected for my military
abilities by by my Superiors and Subordinates alike.
Pity we can't forgo ignorance and learn from each other. But then, as Ron White said, "You can't fix stupid."

Oops! Sorry CTCL, I have dislexia. I confused you with CONCERNED AMERICAN.

Hi Victoria,

How goes the Ramadan observance?

We love you Baby.

Hi Victoria,

How goes the Ramadan observance?

We love you Baby.

CTCL,

I should have added this to the previous post:

How do you reconcile the following with your constant attacks on my friend Victoria?

All religions need to learn to respect each other. (like that will ever happen). Just like people on this message board need to respect each other. Knowledge is power and it seems a lot of people are powerless because they are spouting slander without knowing a thing.

CTCL,

I find your thoughts on religious tolerance and separation of church and state most refreshing. I disagree with your politics, but so what?

Live long and prosper.

Yes, I would vote for a Pagan for public office, if he or she had a platform/programme that I felt I could support.

It really is that simple. I vote for a candidate who shares my political views, not my religion.

Yes, I would vote for a Pagan for public office, if he or she had a platform/programme that I felt I could support.

It really is that simple. I vote for a candidate who shares my political views, not my religion.

Yes, I would vote for a Pagan for public office, if he or she had a platform/programme that I felt I could support.

It really is that simple. I vote for a candidate who shares my political views, not my religion.

Religon: "Devoting to a religious faith." Religous: "Relating or devoted to an acknoledged ultimate reality or deity."
Point being Paganism is a religion because most Pagans believe in a deity(ies) of some sort or in the sacredness of nature as a source of spiritual energy (Gaia).
Next point when will we finally seperate church and state. It doesn't look sperated to me! Bikering over what religon the chaplain is! All religions need to learn to respect each other. (like that will ever happen). Just like people on this messege board need to respect each other. Knowledge is power and it seems alot of people are powerless because they are spouting slander without knowing a thing. Look it up. Paganism is a religon. Actually the WaPo should be calling it NeoPaganism because it is the old Pagan ways revived with certin staples holding it together. We did out with the eating babies and such if people cared to look insted of slander.
Most of all I just want to say I'm a Pagan and I believe Jesus existed and he seems like a nice guy and had some good stuff to say, love each other and stuff. I have nothing agaist todays Christans, I'm friends with some. So slanderers think WWJD? He probably would look at some of these comments and think not cool.

We must allow for all faiths to have representation. I also appreciate the focus of some on the board on the rights of Christians. Our rights are coming under attack. We Christians must also support the rights of those of other religions the freedoms that we have so that we don't risk losing our own.

Since this question is about Pagans and their place in U.S. military and political life, there really isn't a point in bringing up Christianity at all. It will be a good thing when we can discuss issues in contemporary Paganism (Wicca, Druidic, Asatru, Feri, Thelemite or otherwise) without having to bring in other religions into the discussion. This topic can stand alone.

I WOULD LOVE TO HAVE ALL OF OUR FUTURE PRESIDENTS TO HAVE "CHRISTIANITY" ON THEIR SIDE WHILE IN THE OVAL HOUSE. HOWEVER, THIS WILL "NEVER" BE THE CASE! LOOK WHERE WE ARE NOW WITH SOMEONE IN OFFICE HALF-STEPPIN' CHRISTIAN BELIEFS, AND I HONESTLY DO BELIEVE THAT AT THIS POINT IN TIME, "BOZO the CLOWN" COULD BETTER CONTRIBUTE TO OUR COUNTRY. BECAUSE I AM A BELIEVER OF RELIGION AND HOW WE ALL GOT HERE, NOTHING WOULD PLEASE ME MORE THAN TO KEEPING THE "TRADITION" OF HAVING RELIGIOUS BELIEVERS AS LEADERS. WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO SEE DONE IS HAVING A LEADER DO HIS OR HER JOB FOR "ALL' THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, AND SEEING TO IT THAT NO CHILD GOES TO BED HUNGRY, ALL CHILDREN ARE TO BE EDUCATED "FULLY", ALL PEOPLE TO HAVING BETTER HOUSING INSTEAD OF PROJECT LIVING, AND FOR THOSE WHO CAN WORK, GET THEM OUT THERE, AND MORE RESONABLE HEALTHCARE COVERAGE FOR THE WORKING WORLD AND SENIOR CITIZENS. HAD THE FIRST PRESIDENT OF THE US of A BEGAN THIS TREND OF IMPORTANCE AND NOT BE SELFISH BY ENSLAVING PEOPLE FOR THEIR OWN SELFISH GRATIFICATIONS, WE THE PEOPLE WOULD PROBABLY BE GETTING ALONG FAR BETTER THAN NOW. NOT TO MENTION, THE PROBLEMS WOULD BE FEWER. WE WILL NEVER KNOW THIS FOR CERTAIN NOW, WILL WE! BECAUSE I HAVE BELIEFS OF THE RELIGIOUS KIND, IT WOULD BE HARD FOR ME TO VOTE FOR ANYONE OTHER THAN WHAT I BELIEVE. IF I WASN'T MADE AWARE OF THIS FACT, AND THE PERSON WAS IMPRESSING ME WITH THEIR POLITICS, AND THE VIBE I FELT FOR THAT PERSON WAS ON POINT, YES, I WOULD VOTE FOR A NON-BELIEVER. GOD HAS BEEN SO VERY GOOD TO US, AND MANY OF US CANNOT SEE THIS BECAUSE OF MANY UNFORTUNATE INCIDENTS, SITUATIONS, AND DISAPPOINTMENTS HAVE CLOUDED OUR VIEW. I WAS THERE TOO! ANGRY AND DEPRESSED BECAUSE OF THE LOSS OF MY MOTHER AND FATHER, AND MY SISTER. THEN ILLNESS INVITED ITSELF INTO MY WORLD AS WELL. I KNOW THAT THIS IS THE WAY OF THE WORLD, AND I HAVE FOUND A BETTER WAY OF COPING WITH THESE ORDEALS. THERE'S TOO MUCH OF OUR NOT HELPING ONE ANOTHER IN THE WORLD, AND WE NEED TO BETTER HELP OUR FELLOW MAN AND WOMAN, AND NOT JUST IN OUR "PROFESSIONAL LIVES, BUT AS NEIGHBORS. FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO PRACTICE WHAT WAS TAUGHT TO YOU OR WHAT YOU'D TAUGHT YOURSELF TO DOING, I AM THANKING YOU KINDLY, AND PLEASE CONTINUE THE CONTRIBUTION YOU'VE MADE TOWARDS YOUR FELLOW MAN, WOMAN, OR A FAMILY. IF YOU ARE ONE WHO TAKES ADVANTAGE OF THE SYSTEM, YOUR FAMILY MEMBERS, AND OTHERS, WELL, HAVE I SOME NEWS FOR YOU!! K H A R M A IS GOING TO COME BACK AND PUT A FROWN ON YOUR FACE YOU'LL NEVER BE ABLE TO REMOVE!! I'M OUT!! GOD BLESS US ALL!! ROZKJ*

As far as I can see, the only reason to deny Pagan chaplains is to deny others their freedom of religion.

Why not have pagan chaplains?

I'm following with interest the discussion here from teh other side of teh atlantic.
I served in teh British Army and now I am a Corrections officer. This has given me 2 perspectives on religion in instituations.
a) In teh army we were free to go to services if we wanted to. Major events like remembereance Day (veterens day) normally included a christian prayer because we are predominatly a Christian country in the UK. However in my unit there was jews Muslims , Hindus and a Pagan. None of them really had a problem with this as it was part of a military parade and did not involve evangilising.
b) In prisons in teh UK we have many different denominations chaplains. All take care of eth welfare and emmotional health of prisoners. Ther eis no requirment that only a Catholic Chaplian listerns to teh problems of a Catholic prisoner. Normally a duty Chaplain will attend a prisoner and then put him in touch with a chaplian of his own faith.
It appears that in the USA where secularism is enshrined in the constituation and religious freedom is teh law, this is more of a hot patatoe than in the UK where we have no such guarantees. Despite this there is very little religious friction here and religion rarely enters teh public domain.
I must thank Sergeant and Alice for one thing, there comments have inspired me to find out more about paganism as I jhave felt myself attracted to it for some time now. any fiath tha tcould inspire such bigoted outbursts from people must have something going for it.

Lady Victoria!

Doing catch-up here, and just read your post about Solon's 10 commandments. What a revelation! Really good, I have saved a copy. My compliments!

The responses have amazed and saddened me. I am a practicing Christian, but am dismayed at how many so-called Christians howl about the Mosaic 10 Commandments, but do not read the Gospels. The ten were replaced by Jesus - the Two Great Commandments, the heart and soul of Christianity:

"You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets." - Matthew 22

Thank you Mary, yes I was being facetious. Surely no one thought I was being serious about the cannabalism???

I was simply trying to point out that what someone outside a religion might say about that religion's practices should be taken with a grain of salt.

JDS

NARROW Minded idiot. I know that this will be a but of brow beating, but how can you say that Pagans worship a dead god, If you talking about jesus, the only one that I have heard of alive are hispanics, and as far as a dead god. Pagans are a comglomorit of multiple religions being classified together, But in the past back in dark ages, most of Europe were pagan and their rituals of halloween, thanksgiving, and other ones were based on seasonal changes, harvests and the preparing for winter. Oh yea centuries before the roman catholic legion, uh church.

yes this is probably the few violant posts from a non-beliver

Rose this is a few days late but I just found this blog. If you have never served or been to a military function or meet a chaplin then you have no right to talk about the military system. A. I'm an Atheist, but the military chaplins are not pagan, out of the total military service there are only 2 Jewish, about 3 Muslim/Islamic, and now I guess 1 Pagan. But there are over 50 different recognized religions by the Dep. of Army and Vet Affairs. So before you go off half cocked about the military is Pagan, we are more a relistic cros section of society than some would belive. And for those screaming about evangelizing, the chaplins in the military are not here to do that, how ever there are many in command positions that do attempt to force thier "proper" religions on thier unit, sorry religious right that is not allowed in the Army.

I want to sincerely thank everyone who made a post recognizing a Christian's right (and need) to evangelize. I am really encouraged that we might be able to have serious dialog on these issues.
Thanks!

John M:
Yes, you have the right to evengelize, but only when the evangelee has the option of walking away.
In the case of chaplains evangelizing non-Christians at military schools, the target doesn't really have the option of turning his back on an authority figure and walking away. And if a chaplain who is also a superior officer is evangelizing lower-ranked soldiers, they don't have the option of turning their backs and walking away either.

In addition, you do not have the right to trespass on private property in order to evangelize. That means that when JW's or Mormons come knocking on MY door wanting to tell me how I'm worshipping wrong, they are violating MY right to privacy, and MY right to freedom of religion. And when I tell them I'm not interested in their literature, and they eave it in my mailbox, they should know that putting anything other than US mail in a mailbox is a federal offense, and that I will report it as such. If I say I don't want it, don't stick it in my mailbox.

I have had aggressive evangelists grab me when I refused the literature thrust at me - legally, that's both assault and battery.
I have had door-to-door evangelists stick a foot in the doorway when I tried to close the door after telling them I didn't want their literature. Legally, that's home invasion.

I've even tried pointing to my altar and telling them that I will listen to them tell me about their religion if they will, in turn let me tell them about mine. Thus far, I have had no takers.

Now, when I see through the peephole that it's them, I just answer the door skyclad.

Christians and Muslims in historic meeting at the Egyptian Embassy in Washington DC.

knock knock -anybody home?

Well, no word yet from Alice and Sergeant. Still, I'm hopeful that they are searching through their bibles and will soon post a list of verses that support their treatment of Pagans here in this discussion.

Any other Christian reading here who supports Alice and Sergeant could post such a list. Of course Christians who don't support their views of Pagans could speak up too.

I am sure John M. would not be intimated. As no one with conviction would be. I am not bothered with true Christian loving faith as
I am with people who say:" just pretend you believe."

Please, if Jesus was anything i'm sure he could read your heart.

Most people can, especially those with limited education who have plently of time to think. Alice, i would like to,again, address your concern about kindergarten. It is true there are many people who lack higher education.

Are they less than you? Do you think all your knowledge amounts to anything you carry with you when you die? All your knowlege is in regards to this world. When you die all you carry with you is who you really are. no memory of this world. Do you know who you are? or has education clouded your vision.

John M:
I see your point- especially when it comes to chaplains evangelizing to the willing. However, I don't think my argument breaks down with atheism. I may be wrong- hasn't been the first time- but I think it's a valid point. As far as atheism not being a belief system that tells adherents to spread the truth- I think that's hardly the point. If I think that you are wrong, then it doesn't matter to me that you think your deity wants you to spread whatever knowledge you deem truthful. And that goes both ways- I'm fairly confident that you really don't care about the Hindu talking points of does and don'ts, for instance. My intent was to pose a question ( I don't necessarily think that I have a wholesale monopoly on what is 'correct')- how would you as a Christian feel if, say at work, someone approached you and started professing a 'truth' that you thought was threatening? Or irrelevant? I'm not trying to be malicious, I'm just trying to flip your perspective. Would you merely laugh, shake your head and say "those guys..." or would you start to get irritated after a while, and feel imposed upon?

John M - how about having a a government-sponsored scientist [maybe Dawkins himself] who lovingly and respectfully shares the God Delusion with those willing to listen?

Scott:
Your argument breaks down with respect to Atheism/Agnosticism because they are not organized groups. Neither is a belief system. Neither has a teaching that tells adherants to spread the truth. Of course, you are free to tell me why you don't believe. I think that's part of your freedom.

I liked Viejita's response. It was very compassionate.

I guess the questionable part involves the government PAYING these chaplains. But, religious freedoms ought to apply anywhere, even at work, even if your employer is Uncle Sam. I think we get a little crazy with the whole Separation of Church and State thing. Having a government-sponsored chaplain who lovingly and respectfully shares the gospel with those willing to listen is not the same as the U.S. Military making recruits watch the "Jesus movie" or attend mandatory Bible classes.

John M wrote:
**So, what does it mean to have religious freedom in this country? If that freedom is limited to believing what I believe in private and expressing my faith only at church, that is really not freedom at all. Freedom to practice my Christian faith must allow me the freedom to evangelize.**

Is this like religious spam? I'm not trying to be mean here, but claiming that you have the right to evangelize- in any setting- because that's part of the calling, and that Christian military chaplains should have every opportunity to approach a non-christian for such purposes seems a little carte blanche to me.

Would I then get as much traction out of the argument if I hung out at a church and passed out free copies of "The God Delusion"? Or, more to the point- would an officer in the Marine Corps be able to approach a company full of marines and offer a study group on what it means to be agnostic or atheist, just like military chaplains get to advertise bible studies to a company full of marines? Maybe, the military can often be more progressive than the rest of the nation- but what would happen if that information got out to the civilian world? Would there be an outcry that religion was being persecuted? I remember reading that several years ago Ft. Hood let a group of Wicca's use a chapel on base for their services. The Souther Baptists found out about it and all hell broke loose. I'm not trying to be snide, I'm merely posing a question- how are your Christian sensibilities provoked if, in the market place of opposing beliefs, everyone gets to 'evangelize'.

John M.
You have articulated very well the problem chaplains may encounter when trying to counsel individuals of faiths other than their own. To use Christianity as an example:
I totally sympathize with the honest Christian feeling -- no, it is stronger than a feeling, it is a conviction -- that Jesus could so easily solve people's problems if they would only let Him. But our government does not pay anyone to "correct" the religious views of others. It is a dilemma, but the most effective chaplains have learned to deal with it without breaking the law.

It is human nature that people are willing to believe anything. And it doesn't make a whisker's difference what one believes. Beliefs are not facts, and beliefs change no facts.
It is also human nature for people to enjoy disagreeing about their beliefs. So humorous.

Lepidopteryx :

I wrote:
"Is anyone aware that activists are lobbying hard right now to prevent Christian chaplains from mentioning 'Jesus'? What do those of you who think you are tolerant have to say about that?"

You responded:
"Are you referring to prohibiting the mention of Jesus in sermons during formal worship services, or are you referring to prohibiting evangelism directed at non-Christians outside of services?
It would be ridiculous to prohibit the mention of Jesus during an actual worship service, but I have also heard stories of chaplains attempting to convert others outside of services, and that should not be allowed."

I think what you wrote is a very common non-Christian thought. But, I would like to ask what exactly we mean by religious tolerance and religious freedom. I don't think tolerating someone's beliefs is limited to respecting their right to believe what they believe. True tolerance requires taking the time to learn what the other believes.

If non-Christians were to do that, they would learn that Christians believe Jesus left them with the directive to spread the Gospel all over the world. Following Jesus means telling people about Him. There's no way around that.

So, what does it mean to have religious freedom in this country? If that freedom is limited to believing what I believe in private and expressing my faith only at church, that is really not freedom at all. Freedom to practice my Christian faith must allow me the freedom to evangelize.

I know this is not popular, but a Christian will never be truly free unless they are allowed to openly share Jesus with those around them.

You can walk away, but it is not right to tell me to stop.

I'd like to clarify that a Christian is misguided if they are forceful, obnoxious, judgmental, or any other adjective that would not describe Jesus. To speak my faith in love includes knowing when to let the other walk away.

Recent Anonymous:

Being atheist myself, I couldn't care less what the Pope says. My point is that a few Christians on is forum have tried pigeon hole the various Pagan beliefs into their own narrow understanding- meanwhile it would look to an outsider that Christians can't even get their own story straight. Now, having once been Christian, I understand all of the subtitles, games, and rationalizations for the various denominations and the myriad interpretations of the eucharist- that doesn't mean that it makes any more sense, or that the eucharist in general wouldn't seem a rather silly concept to any other religion.

wdyx vfzwjleau gojvxdr cjqiym wjivnkrz wlrgupys twxfc

wdyx vfzwjleau gojvxdr cjqiym wjivnkrz wlrgupys twxfc

Oh Bitner was being facetious.

Bitner,

The Trinity is not polytheistic. You obviously do not have an understanding of what the doctrine of the Trinity is. I am not catholic, but yet the Trinity doctrine is biblically correct.

Scott,

I'm not sure why any true Christian would care what the pope says about who is Christian or not. He's not the head of the church. Jesus is. He's not God, so who is he to judge? If God is never changing (Malachi 6) then why does the pope keep changing what the so called (only true church) does concerning doctrine and worship? Hence, most recently, latin mass and limbo?? C'mon now pope get it together!!

As a word of advice for any Christian. Read the Bible to see if what the pope says is biblical. Go from there.

Scott - don't worry about what the Pope says -- They've been saying that kind of stuff for centuries. Nobody pays much attention anymore

While some of the Christians are ganging up on the Pagans, lets throw this into the mix: The Pope just said that if you're a Protestant then you're not really a part of the church- not really a Christian. He wants the sandbox to himself.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6289014.stm

I wonder which dictionary he was using?

Alice,
You have no idea what you are talking about. And apparently, you are content to remain in ignorance. I wonder how you would like it if the shoe was on the other foot?

Christians are Polytheists, because they believe in the Trinity. They are also Cannabalists, because they eat their God. Their Priests are all pedophiles, and they themselves are idol worshipers (the idols in question being the Bible the Saints, the Virgin Mary and the Pope). I've also heard that they drink the blood of babies (hmmm...maybe that's why they are against contraceptives and abortion?).

People have said all these things and more, but that doesn't make it true. You repeating what you have heard without bothering to find out from a Pagan if it is indeed true is akin to the detractors of Christianity who do the same thing.

Ask yourself, WWJD?

Alice,

Don't feel bad. The point of discussion is to help us grow. We either change our thoughts or our thoughts are strengthened. Come on, which is it?

Alice and Sergeant - I see you've been here a lot since I last posted, but haven't addressed my question yet.

Please do. Here it is again:

"Are you Christian? If so, which of Jesus' teachings are you applying the comments you've made here about Pagans?"

Thanks

Alice: **The end result of your reasoning is the same as saying: a Pagan should be allowed to say Mass to Catholics.
The Last Rites and The Mass are both Sacraments.**

That's not what I meant. I was simply pointing out to ALice that her idea of a Pagan chaplain having everyone run to the nearest tree and bow to it as a way of responding to a death in the ranks was ridiculous. I wuld hope that there would be a spiritual counsellor for the fallen soldier, whatever his faith who could handle such affairs in the manner the soldier would have preferred. It has been my experience that a Pagan would be more likely to participate in a Christian ritual for the sake of another than the other way around.

However, if there was not a Catholic chaplain available, and a soldier wished to take Communion or needed Last Rites, then I would say that a Pagan priest or priestess would be better than nothing at all. Surely your deity would understand.

Jim & Alice & Sargent: I cannot figure out what you are saying or asking. Perhaps you should try a milder approach.

Alice,

If you remove the parts Christianity, you are not a Christian. I have heard priests say, If you don't believe this stuff you don't belong.

Sergeant,

What ever happened to "the world will not end"

I have news for eveyone: The physical is not what what you think it is. It is merely a reflection of all the problems in this world. If we can fix all the problems, through science and compassion. The world will take care of itself.

The levels of existance all include this world. And at the top level everything is perfect, Always a sunny day.

Alice,

You REALLY don't want me to go that route. Do you? Trust me on this. I've got *far* more books on Paganism that includes but are not limited to rituals, ethics, rites of passage, mythologies, cultural differences, interfaith ideas, raising kids, stages of life, etc. than ANY that you can name that are written based on your so called 'definition'.

Please stop. You're only embarrassing yourself. I can provide you with titles if you wish, but I'm pretty sure you don't want me to do that. Besides, you're the one who seems to think that you need a 'book' to have a religion in the first place.

I read for ideas, take what works for me and leave the rest. It's all about experience. And love.

Mary;
What you were writing is still Buddhism even if you subtracted the elements you mentioned.

Mary;
Another saying comes to mind "We must all agree or the world will tumble to the sea."

Seargant:

LoL- That's pretty funny. I like that. :) Never said I'm not worried about the way we're so good at trashing the planet- but he just doesn't do it for me.

Alice: Also, and far more importantly to this thread, Paganism is legally recognized in the United States, and Wiccan Soldiers only recently completed a 10 year quest for a pentacle on their VA issued gravestones. As do many other branches of Paganism. Pagans are only requesting from the government what is taken for granted by others.

Priver, every single book that has been written about Paganism is based on that definition. You can check them out.

Priver, every single book that has been written about Paganism is based on that definition.

Sergeant,

Even if we do love the earth, we do not all agree on how to save it.

Priver; What you wrote down brings to my mind another saying, "He who loveth not Al Gore, loveth not the earth."

Um.. no, actually, it's not.

Would you let someone else tell you what you believe? I doubt it. Dictionaries, even if you got it from one, can be wrong. Written by.. people. Definitions can change over time, as do words.

Priver, like it or not, the definition I gave is the definition of your "religion".

Alice,

No I am not talking about Budism. Buda's believe in bopping someone in the head if they get something wrong. They also believe in no attachments. And they believe that meditation should be your life's pursuit. They also believe that an enlightened women will go to a planet full of babies. And they believe that magic can break the cycle that you are in.

I don't believe any of that.

As I think was mentioned in an much earlier blog, all religions have a bit of truth in them.

Mary, your criticizing the basic definition of Paganism.
But what you've been writing about all this time isn't about Paganism.
What you keep talking about is really Buddhism.

Alice,

The 'definition' you gave has nothing to do with Paganism as a religion. And yes, it is a religion. With ceremonies, rituals for all occasions, rites of passage, very strong ethics and everything.

Check your etymology.
The root of 'paganus' (Latin) refers to 'country dweller'. That's it. You have added something about hedonism (which makes me laugh, given the fact that some people call me a fuddy duddy for the way I am- at a young age, too!) and Heathen, which is supposed to be used in some sort of derogatory fashion, but is actually one of many differing branches that Paganism falls under.

There is much we can learn from each other, if only you'd take the time to actually ask and stop criticizing people not like yourself.

Seargant: Al Gore has nothing to do with me. Sorry to disappoint you. I celebrate the seasons changing. The beauty and diversity of all life on this planet. I wanted to take care of the Earth long before he showed up.

E Favorite: I was wondering the same thing myself.

Priver, I don't have to ask around.
I already know what the "beautiful" minds will say!

Alice,

Your ideas about forgiveness come from your religion, not ours. And the deffinition you gave for Paganism comes from the dictionary, a very generic source.

John M. : "Here's a related question...
Is anyone aware that activists are lobbying hard right now to prevent Christian chaplains from mentioning 'Jesus'? What do those of you who think you are tolerant have to say about that?"

Are you referring to prohibiting the mention of Jesus in sermons during formal worship services, or are you referring to prohibiting evangelism directed at non-Christians outside of services.

It would be ridiculous to prohibit the mention of Jesus during an actual worship service, but I have also heard stories of chaplains attempting to convert others outside of services, and that should not be allowed.

I think the teaching that comes to my mind is "Do not love a tree, it might fall."

Sergeant and Alice --

Are you Christian? If so, which of Jesus' teachings are you applying the comments you've made here about Pagans?

Priver, respect for nature is your religion? Is your high priests name Al Gore?
Surprise!

I merely sited the basic definition of Paganism.

Basically, the only thing you added was Polytheism.

The Pagan worship of many gods without the characteristics of Judaism, Christianity and Islam is
the same as the basic definition I typed down earlier.

Wow. Such vitriol from people who seem to enjoy denigrating others. So much fear, so little curiosity. Sad, really.

Alice: What are you so angry for? Why not actually ASK a Pagan what he/she believes? What are you afraid of? We aren't the ones proselytizing about what we are/do, and are happy to share our feelings about what our religion is and does for us. Ask questions. You may be surprised.

Sargent: It's less about 'faith in nature' and more about respect for Nature, the Earth we live on, and respect for everything and everyone on it. 'Stupidity'? Hardly. If we don't start respecting our home and taking care of it and each other we are all in trouble.

More than likely, a Pagan chaplain would see death as part of an ongoing natural cycle, and would mourn with others who are close to those who passed away.

Gaby, you mean you attend prayer meetings at 6 different Churches of The Farting Dog . . .
No wonder, you sound so moronic.

Alice
All you've proven is that you can pick out only those definitions that you like, while ignoring the rest. Shall we see what other definitions for Pagan exist?

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
pa·gan /ˈpeɪgən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[pey-guhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. one of a people or community observing a polytheistic religion, as the ancient Romans and Greeks.
2. a person who is not a Christian, Jew, or Muslim.
3. pertaining to the worship or worshipers of any religion that is neither Christian, Jewish, nor Muslim.
5. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of pagans.

Lepidopteryx,
The end result of your reasoning is the same as saying: a Pagan should be allowed to say Mass to Catholics.
The Last Rites and The Mass are both Sacraments.

No, Alice, I am not claiming to be nice. People like you and Sergeant make my skin crawl. And when my skin crawls, I get NASTY!

Sergeant, "Church of the Farting Dog"? Not bad, how did you know I have six of them?

By the way, Sergeant, I doubt very much that you know anything about the military way of life. I, on the other hand, know plenty having been connected with them for over 20 years of my life.

You great philosophers, scholars and "researchers" have got Buddhism and Paganism mixed up!

ALICE:**Hey Mr. Pagan! What's the Pagan chaplain gonna teach the soldiers when somebody dies?

Pagan Chaplain: "Get up! Let's worship a tree!"**

Not quite. Although we did hold a memorial service for a dear friend of mine under an oak tree that was over a century old.
When a loved one dies, we mourn the loss, just like anyone else does. We just have different ideas about what happens to that person after they die.
I would hope that any memorial activities carried out by a chaplain would be in accordance with the deceased soldier's religion, not a default to that of the chaplain. And to be honest, I can see a Pagan chaplain reading a Christian prayer for a fallen Methodist soldier much easier than I can a Baptist preacher invoking the Elements for a fallen Pagan soldier.

Gaby sounds so stupid. He probably attends Prayer Meetings at "The Church of The Farting Dog".

Alice:

"Stop giving us that I'm from the University crap! "

I think it's your turn to go back to kindergarten. Better yet, preschool where they teach you if you don't have something nice to say keep your trap shut!

Gaby, are you claiming that your "NICE"?

Alice:

"Stop giving us that I'm from the University crap! "

I think it's your turn to go back to kindergarten. Better yet, preschool where they teach you if you don't have something nice to say keep your trap shut!

Gaby, why are you getting mad? Are you a Pagan? Don't you believe in "love"?
I'm advising you to get out of your house right now and ask forgiveness from a tree!
Who's the moron now?!?

Lori, you must go back to kindergarten.

Yes, Alice, and a kindergartner also knows a moron when he sees one! Been looking in the mirror lately?

Wow! How diplomatic.
If you want to impress us, go back to kindergarten and learn how to spell words.

My faith is not in Nature it is in Love. I just know this Universe responses to Love. I have believed in Love all my life. And no religion comes close to understanding it.

Here is a new deffinition for you.

Love:

The respect, acceptance and affirmation of all that is different from you. (It would lead to world peace.)

I actually get more spiritually from a diverse group of friends, that I could ever get from a church.

And what would I tell soldiers when someone dies? Death is a part of life, but as in the universe it is all a cycle. Just as mourning the loss of someone close goes through a cycle. And the best way to honor someone who has died for your freedom, is to live free. Don't let him/her die in vain. All that have gone before us have, in there own way, worked to advance the knowledge of this world, even if it was through suffering.

Wow.. there are some very uninformed opinions out there.. those of you who havnt done your reserch look like idiots.. Pagans dont eat each other. nor do they discriminate against anyone else religion. in all the comments I have read so far. much to my suprise. someone who practices catholic religion had the most powerful posative comment. dont judge.. allow soldiers to have their write to "their" religion. like all others do. separate church from government by eqaulity.

Definition of Pagan:
1. Heathen
2. One that has little or no religion
3. An irreligous Hedonist and Materialist

Stop giving us that I'm from the University crap! Even a kindergarten student knows what a Pagan is.

Hey Mr. Pagan! What's the Pagan chaplain gonna teach the soldiers when somebody dies?

Pagan Chaplain: "Get up! Let's worship a tree!"

You Pagans brag about all your researching and knowledge. Don't you know that they killed one of your stupid tree gods when they made those books?!?

Hey Mr. Pagan! What's the Pagan chaplain gonna teach the soldiers when somebody dies?

Pagan Chaplain: "Get up! Let's worship a tree!"

You Pagans brag about all your researching and knowledge. Don't you know that they killed one of your stupid tree gods when they made those books?!?

Tolerance with respect and dignity to all faiths and beliefs...whereas christian and muslim chaplains have their places in the arm forces, naturally pagan chaplains should be. Beside, a cross should not be placed on every tomb or memorial of a down soldier; instead, the stripes and stars flag would make more sense: each one, notwithstanding his/her religion and or belief, has paid with his/her life for the country.

Are you actually telling me that Pagans have faith?!?
Faith in nature isn't faith, it's stupidity!

And about nature and everything that exists in this universe. Once you learn to love it, it will love you back. The universe and everything in it is alive whether you realize it or not. How did Jesus get out of the barriel cave. I think the rock loved him so much it moved itself.

There is a Power associated with love.

You guys might want to do a little research into the various forms of Paganism before making your comments. These misconceptions you are repeating make you look foolish. Pagans don't eat people, nor are we 'perverted'. We are simply of another faith. Pagan soldiers are serving (and dying), to protect this country and preserve your freedoms, and they deserve their own clergy.

Military life is tough, crazy and scary. But there are only a few things scarier than to be left inside a room, alone with a Pagan Chaplain!

Military life is tough, crazy and scary. But there are only a few things scarier than to be left inside a room, alone with a Pagan Chaplain!

A Pagan chaplain? What's he gonna do? Give advice to people about the most delicious way of cooking other people?

Lara @ July 9, 2007 5:53 PM: That is a very interesting string of quotations from Jefferson. Now please explain to me whether Jefferson would have been able to make these statements about less-perverted (I suppose) systems in those systems. For example:

a. About Islam in say Saudi Arabia;

b. About atheism in say the now defunct USSR or today's China.

c. For that matter in ancient Rome about the Roman gods.

I hope you can appreciate the problem with these superlative terms. I also hope that you can determine which tradition has produced societies that allow this freedom.

Pagans are naturilist. They worship nature.Pagan chaplains must be represented in the military.I demand atheist,agnost,humanist,secularist should be fairly represented.
Followers of organised faith say's
'praise the lord'.
Pagan say's 'Curse the lord for suffering of mankind'.
'Praise the cow for giving us milk free'.

I must say for me it was a conscious choice to leave the Judaism I was born into.. but there was no one person that 'talked' me into Paganism either. I just knew that what I felt was not to be codified in any book, based on my own experiences. Like so many others, I was Pagan long before I ever realized there was a name for it. I read about differing religions as well as different forms of Paganism for years before I made that decision.

That's why for me, like so many others, it was a 'homecoming'. No 'conversion'. No force. there wasn't even anyone around me that I knew of that was Pagan. I had to go looking for others to see if they were even out there.

Just.. 'home'.

Don Quixote

I can only speak for myself. I am a modern day Pagan, who qualifies as a Neopagan. I think all the religious leaders you mentioned were very enlightened men, albiet sexist. i believe, as many Pagans do, that there are 2 ruling entities, Although I call them King and Queen, not god and godess. What attributes do I give them above the adverage human, being able to clearly see the future. After all, the 1 eyed Man is King over the blind.

Now having said that, I think they mastered the human ability to to reach the highest level of human conscienceness from the womb. In this day and age, it takes about 30 years. I think they existed in the time of the pharaos.

How did I come to this information. I started meditating at the age of 3. It just came to me naturally, I did not know it was a formal, documented way of life.

May someone be so kind as to tell me something I ignore? Paganism is something new, and I do not know what Neopagans or historical Pagans believe. Who do Pagans think (now) that Jesus, Buddha, or Krishna were? What happens after we die? Where does their knowledge come from? And where does Pagan knowledge come from? Thanks

The latin word 'paganus' referred to a 'village-dweller, a country-bumbpkin'-- an outsider to the Roman industrial-military-(and now religious) complex. They were the civilians who stayed behind as the Roman Empire tramped through others' lands. So I, who live and pray in a very spiritual place, feel closer to the pagans than the trampers. SJ

as a humanist i personally cannot see a reason to deny another the right for spiritual comfort as an atheist i ask why?
but as as one general once put it it is hard to find atheist in the fox holes maybe thats why.
i will remain with my unbelief and respect those that give their lives for our countrie's sake.
for they defend our religious liberty even from george w. bush predations in the military that is trying to turn it all evangelical and what not these
pagan and other non-evans have got to be strong in order to free the military from the mealy-mouthed evangelizing depredations that is happening to the military now they are all being taught to pray the same, think the same, and therefore, lose the same war.

Interesting note: on the Metro the other day, I heard a father tell his kids that they were visiting the Jefferson Memorial because it was Thomas Jefferson who gave us the freedom of religion and that they would most likely see many bible verses carved on the memorial because he was such devoutly Christian man.

Nope. While Mr. Jefferson DID give us freedom of religion, it was in response to being forced by the crown to pay taxes to the Anglican church - a faith he didnt belong to. Mr. Jefferson was actually secular - following no particular religion.

Freedom of religion also means the freedom NOT to have any religion or to have more than one if that works for you.

I say level the playing field completely - chaplains for ALL religions or for none of them.

It is odd to me that there is argument about whether or not to have chaplains for a religion that has not traditionally been recognized. I grew up a military kid on military bases all over the world and in our little American ghettos, we had only one or two chaplains but people of all faiths. The only common "faith" was the US Department of Defense. Sometimes I got a chaplain who was the same religion as my family, but usually not. The chaplain was the chaplain and it never really occured to me to ask if they were Methodist, Baptist, Presbyterian, Catholic, Lutheran or even Jewish. They were just Chaplain Joe (or Dan or Will) or Major (or Captain or Colonel, etc) if in uniform.

Not surprising this "whatever" acceptance was also pretty common in a number of other issues: interracial couples, single parents, working moms, women and minorities in command positions, etc - and this was the late 70s!!

I have to wonder how many folks here actually grew up in the military world and wonder why they havent developed the same laissez faire tolerance I (and many many others) did. Instead of being worried about Pagan (or Buddhist or Muslim or Jehovah's Witness, etc) chaplains, I would just embrace whichever chaplain was on the base at the time we arrived as we always did. Whatever...as long as we HAVE a chaplain on the base.

Let's see: religious organizations are EXEMPT from paying taxes, yet our taxes are used to pay for religious activities within the military.

How is that Constitutional?

Yes I would vote for a Pagan any day.. cause since history has been shown .. that Christian's are no diffrent then islamic facism

.
Christianity ... (has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ... Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus.
Thomas Jefferson

I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded upon fables and mythologies. The Christian God is a being of terrific character – cruel, vindictive, capricious, and unjust ...
Thomas Jefferson

The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves ... these clergy, in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ.
Thomas Jefferson

The clergy, by getting themselves established by law and ingrafted into the machine of government, have been a very formidable engine against the civil and religious rights of man.
Thomas Jefferson

Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
Thomas Jefferson; Notes on Virginia, 1782

Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.
Thomas Jefferson; Autobiography, referring to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State.
Thomas Jefferson; letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT, January 1, 1802

I am a Pagan, I am not insulted by an Agnostic or an Atheist. The ones I have met are fairly idealistic and want to make a better world. I consider them "walking the path" Just because many religious people can describe that path and recognize its value, doesn't mean they can walk it.

I could easily take comfort from a humanist who believes in the equality of all people. Who believes in compassion and knows about conflict resolution.

My fiance is an Atheist, I can't count the number of times he has calmed me down. Or the number of times I calmed him down. Just because we both understand human nature and the causes of most stress.

The word pagan has so many definitions--try religioustolerance.org and see for yourself. As for me, I would have said that the word has been used to demean anyone who is not of the same faith as the speaker, or writer. For example, the Spanish believed the Aztecs, Inca, etc. were pagans because they had multiple gods and many statues (forget that the Aztecs consumed others--symbolically, Christians consume Jesus, but that's another topic). It has been used as a pejorative term.

So, the first thing we would have to do is define what is meant by a "pagan chaplain." We couldn't have a non-believer chaplain, an agnostic? But to believers in Wicca or Druidism, etc., this is an insulting term, which means less than equal. I remember when I was working in my son's grade school library and read a book which claimed that the Egyptians were inferior because they worshipped animals.

When my mother was dying in the hospital, she wouldn't allow anything religious near her. She had always told each of her children that she was a different religion--Methodist, Evangelical, etc., whatever she thought might work to get us to move to another topic. Her mother and father were a-religious and never attended a church. To comfort my mother, I asked a female chaplain to talk with her but not tell her she was a minister. My mother--who also had dementia--was fine with this. My father was/is an atheist, like his father and brothers, and doesn't seem to realize that his atheism is also a belief. A beloved uncle, when he was dying from prostate cancer, refused any drugs and looked his death in the eye. He didn't go gentle.

Too much is made of religion. It has been both harmful and beneficial. I would say, considering the dark ages and the crusades and the Nazis, that it has been mostly harmful. I think it is part of being a member of the clan, with everyone having the same beliefs and values, even smelling the same, looking the same, etc.

My husband and I recently moved to a rural area, and a resident of the nearby town (about 700 residents) asked me what religion we were, and I replied my husband (who was standing there) was a heathen, and I was a Unitarian. The conversation ended. My husband enjoyed listening.

The word pagan has so many definitions--try religioustolerance.org and see for yourself. As for me, I would have said that the word has been used to demean anyone who is not of the same faith as the speaker, or writer. For example, the Spanish believed the Aztecs, Inca, etc. were pagans because they had multiple gods and many statues (forget that the Aztecs consumed others--symbolically, Christians consume Jesus, but that's another topic). It has been used as a pejorative term.

So, the first thing we would have to do is define what is meant by a "pagan chaplain." We couldn't have a non-believer chaplain, an agnostic? But to believers in Wicca or Druidism, etc., this is an insulting term, which means less than equal. I remember when I was working in my son's grade school library and read a book which claimed that the Egyptians were inferior because they worshipped animals.

When my mother was dying in the hospital, she wouldn't allow anything religious near her. She had always told each of her children that she was a different religion--Methodist, Evangelical, etc., whatever she thought might work to get us to move to another topic. Her mother and father were a-religious and never attended a church. To comfort my mother, I asked a female chaplain to talk with her but not tell her she was a minister. My mother--who also had dementia--was fine with this. My father was/is an atheist, like his father and brothers, and doesn't seem to realize that his atheism is also a belief. A beloved uncle, when he was dying from prostate cancer, refused any drugs and looked his death in the eye. He didn't go gentle.

Too much is made of religion. It has been both harmful and beneficial. I would say, considering the dark ages and the crusades and the Nazis, that it has been mostly harmful. I think it is part of being a member of the clan, with everyone having the same beliefs and values, even smelling the same, looking the same, etc.

My husband and I recently moved to a rural area, and a resident of the nearby town (about 700 residents) asked me what religion we were, and I replied my husband (who was standing there) was a heathen, and I was a Unitarian. The conversation ended. My husband enjoyed listening.

Pagan chaplain? Don't be ridiculous. But there should be a Bokonon chaplain because the war can only be understood in terms of Bokononism.

Isn't there supposed to be freedom of religion in this country? How can ANYONE think that not having a pagan chaplain is justified?

Look at it this way: at least pagans love ALL the gods and goddesses - unlike Jews, Christians, Muslims, etc. who take the "my way or the highway, I mean, stake" view of the matter. Of course there should be pagan chaplains!!! Pagans are just as spiritual and religious as anyone else, and religious liberty has to be for everyone, otherwise, it will eventually be for no one.

'E Favorite': Sincere apologies. I did not intend to imply that you were using multiple handles (unfortunately there are quite a few who hide behind that tactic).

As for the rest, I responded to the comment "Religion poisons everything, it doesn't matter which religion it is." that 'Peter' made.

Yes, I know how Catholcism considers itself as universal and able to care for all, but even if the Chaplain doesn't try to convert a solder he will use his own morality to give console. And his morality is dictated by his religion.

Would I vote for a Pagan?

Well, it would depend on their position on the issues I find important, just as it does for any candidate, of any religion. I don't vote on the basis of religion.

Should there be Pagan Chaplains in the military?

Of course, Pagan soldiers have the same right to religious representation as any other religion does.

testy

Military chaplains exist to "provide for their own, facilitate ministry for others and extend care for all." So, a Catholic priest functions as a priest for Catholic service members, but also works to ensure Protestants, Jews, Muslims and whoever else in the unit receives access to resources for their own faiths. The Catholic chaplain "cares for all" in that any young soldier or sailor or Marine who has a problem with marriage, loneliness, finance or whatever can seek out that chaplain for assistance regardless of their religion or lack of it. The chaplain is expected to work in a collegial and constructive relationship with other chaplains and with the young men and women in the chaplain's unit. The chaplain position exists to guarantee the First Amendment "Free Exercise of Religion" clause includes military members far from home and ready access to their religious worship or sacraments. Characters who seek to enter the military chaplaincy relishing the thought of picking fights, proving a point or meeting their OWN needs will fail the very people they are supposed to be serving. So, if there is a coherent and functioning pagan faith group that meets the modest standards for faith group recognition under the Department of Defense, with a candidate with the graduate level education required of any chaplain, and the willingness to minister constructively in a diverse and inclusive setting, such a person can serve.

AMViennaVA

I am E Favorite, not Peter. Suggesting someone has changed their name to respond does not seem to me a very promising way to pursue a conversation. Neither is saying "Your post is not a response."

It certainly is - just not probably what you wanted to hear.

Communism is an ideology, atheism is not. If you think my response is inadequate, look it up.

Victoria,

And your general Islamic "wishy wash" continues. Be specific backed with references if you want to prove a point.

And address the specific foundations of Islam and the problems it is causing in the contemporary world.

More people who died in the name of religion than in all the world wars combined.

Yes there are many diffrent ways to be Pagan. Ifsomeone is willing to pu their life on the line to fight for what they believe in they should have the right to show their faith on their headsone for all to see. Up until a month agoPagans and Wiccans didn't have that right. There were 98 other religions that can be put on the headstone....some of which are so off the wall most people have never heard of!

A mind is like a parachute...it only works when it's open!!!

And Nature

Look I'm am sure it is 1 God with many names. It is like serveral blind people trying to describe an elephant from the small part that they feel. As far as I know the conscience of God is fluid and moves constantly between People, Animals, insects, inanimate objects and Art. And I think it is this energy that surrounds everything that allows this movement.

'E Favorite': I assume you are not the 'Peter' who posted "Religion poisons everything, it doesn't matter which religion it is." to which I responded.

Your post is not a response. Communism IS an ideology and is atheistic.

AMViennaVA

"Mao and the like" were communists or fascists. They were not fighting in the name of atheism -which is not an ideology or a belief system it is a simple lack of belief.

Plus this, reposted from comments I made on another thread:

"Would you say that Christianity has to answer for the US Revolution? Christians were the majority religion on both sides and the state religion of the English.

Of course not, that war was not about religion nor was it fought in the name of religion. It was about taxes, colonial ties, dominance and independence."

JohnM & David: About Solon: There is a difference between 'acquaintance' and 'friend'.

Lady Victoria @July 8, 2007 6:06 PM: I applaud your post. It is very rare to find anyone who gives Solon the credit that is his due, for laying the foundations of DEMOCRACY.

Peter @ July 6, 2007 3:55 PM: I just noticed your post.

"Are you religious people comfortable with the idea that you can follow your own commandments without imposing them on others?" YES

"Religion poisons everything, it doesn't matter which religion it is." Please account for Mao and the like. Or selected period of the French Revolution when 'reason' reigned supreme.

yeah, and what about Zeus (JDS)? He saved my brother from the common cold and then gave him wings to fly far far away.....

yeah, and what about Zeus (JDS)? He saved my brother from the common cold and then gave him wings to fly far far away.....

yeah, and what about Zeus (JDS)? He saved my brother from the common cold and then gave him wings to fly far far away.....

yeah, and what about Zeus (JDS)? He saved my brother from the common cold and then gave him wings to fly far far away.....

yeah, and what about Zeus (JDS)? He saved my brother from the common cold and then gave him wings to fly far far away.....

To Lady Victoria on Solon: excellent work.

JDS ,
What makes you thing the other gods are dead. I have a friend who follows the Norse gods as does her son. He was in Afghanistan and saw some Taliban coming their way and had to run across open ground to get back to his buddies to warn them he did not happen to be wearing any flack jacket, bullets and shrapnel were flying all around him. Afterward when they checked the ground not one square inch was without shrapnel.

This follower of the Norse gods got not even a scratch. None of his buddies could figure out why he was not dead. Obviously it was not his day to die. And that was just in the last few days. So Christians are not the only ones that experience miracles through their religions sometimes. He is now coming home.

glad i reread that-

i meant CHARMING - not harming ones on these boards-

and i havent bothered to look, because how could such statistics exist?
but it occurred to me that hospital records would easily substantiate the fact that many humans die alone-

i remeber once at an aids conference someone brought forth the statistics that a great number of people die in the middle of the night-

but, it really really doesnt matter at all

i am pleased, because i know you try so very hard to scrutinize and fins fault with my every utterance, that out of all my verbosity- this is all you can come up with to complain about.

concerned- not that its especially pertinent-
but having been to several rainblow gatherings in my life, living in north and southern california for many years, and belonging to several groups and gatherings in my hometown, id say it is literally in the hundreds.

and in a cosmic sense i can state in an existential sense, every person actually does die alone.

what is your point?

even if i never met ANY pagan or wiccan in my life, there are many quite harming ones on these boards.

even if i never read one posting by one pagan or wiccan-
all human beings are deserving of respect and counsel.

who am i to decide for another?

you are downright silly sometimes.

i stick by my statement-

even on these boards- i havent seen any people of the countryside making any attacks on the historical jesus(ata) and his message-

ive seen some discontent with how his followers interpret or corrupt his message- but youll find hypocrisy and a desire to control others or be 'more right' or better than others in every realm of humanity.

Candide,
You are as ignorant about Pagans as any Christian. You are also a fundamentalist. Religions are the only fundamentalists.

I am a Wiccan, a Pagan and I don't hate other religions, nor do I hate Atheists, for they are no threat to my beliefs. Just a my belief is no threat to nonbelievers as Wiccans have no need to convert anyone.

Of course even when I was Atheist in the Marine Corps I didn't hate any religion. I am against hate of any kind, waste of effort and energy.

candide :
There is today no such thing as paganism. Paganism is simply agnosticism or atheism and it would be best if "pagans" acknowledged this fact. Then all of us who hate religion could really unite.

Candide,
You are as ignorant about Pagans as any Christian. You are also a fundamentalist. Religions are the only fundamentalists.

I am a Wiccan, a Pagan and I don't hate other religions, nor do I hate Atheists, for they are no threat to my beliefs. Just a my belief is no threat to nonbelievers as Wiccans have no need to convert anyone.

Of course even when I was Atheists in the Marine Corps I didn't hate any religion.

candide :
There is today no such thing as paganism. Paganism is simply agnosticism or atheism and it would be best if "pagans" acknowledged this fact. Then all of us who hate religion could really unite.

No, just wondering.

David
Yes, I am. Does it make a difference?

Viejita are you a Christian?

Look up the particulars of Mikey Weinstein's lawsuit (which he won) and then tell me whether Christians are forcing themselves on Jewish and other non-Christian service members.

Members of religious minority groups have long had to rely on Christian chaplains for personal and spiritual support. However, I suspect that the demand for specifically Pagan chaplains may be related to a lack of spiritual support some non-Christians feel in this setting.

As someone who has helped plan a wedding including family members who are Protestant, Catholic, Jewish, Agnostic and Atheist, I understand the difficulty of the juggling act these professionals are asked to perform. But perform it they must: The answer is not to refuse spiritual support to those with whom they personally disagree.

Viejita:

Either you are misunderstanding me or I am misunderstanding the role of Chaplains in the armed services. I thought their function was to give spiritual guidance to those WHO APPROACH THEM. If you approach a Christian chaplain, would you be surprised to hear Him mention Jesus? Unless I am mistaken, I don't think these chaplains are forcing themselves on anyone. Maybe I'm wrong.

I usually deplore the use of cut-and-paste technology in a discussion, but I feel there are misconceptions here that relate to lack of information.
Our country has laws against the religious view of the majority being foisted upon members of other faiths. This is not just a Pagan issue. The following is from truthout.com, but reports on Weinstein's suit against the Air Force Academy and his efforts to keep the chaplaincy honest are widely available.

"More than two years ago, Mikey Weinstein launched the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, a nonprofit government watchdog group that aims to keep a close eye on the military to ensure its adherence to the law mandating the separation between church and state, after his son, a student at the Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs, was harassed about his Jewish faith and urged by other cadets and Air Force officials to convert to Christianity.

Weinstein is no military outsider. He describes his and his family's background this way: As a 1977 honor graduate of the United States Air Force Academy, Weinstein spent 10 years in the Air Force as a "JAG," or military attorney, serving as both a federal prosecutor and a criminal defense attorney. His oldest son and daughter-in-law are 2004 Air Force Academy graduates, and Weinstein's youngest son is currently a first classman (senior) at the Academy and the sixth member of the Weinstein family to attend the institution. Weinstein's father is a distinguished graduate of the United States Naval Academy.

Since he launched his watchdog organization, Weinstein has been contacted by more than 4,000 active duty and retired soldiers, many of whom served or serve in Iraq, who told Weinstein that they were pressured by their commanding officers to convert to Christianity....

Weinstein said the military has been hijacked by a right-wing, fundamentalist Christian agenda, in what appears to be a clear-cut violation of the constitutional separation between church and state, that has rippled across all four branches of the military under President Bush.

"The rise of evangelical Christianity inside the military went on steroids after 9/11 under this administration and this White House," Weinstein said in an interview. "This administration has turned the entire Department of Defense into its own personal faith-based initiative."

[Weinstein] recently published a book on the issue, "With God on Our Side: One Man's War Against an Evangelical Coup in America's Military."

I guess I'll respond to John M's question from a Christian point of view.

If it is a "Christian" chaplain then how can anyone lobby against him saying or talking about Jesus. If he couldn't or wouldn't want to speak about Jesus then that doesn't make him a "Christian" there does it?

If I were in the military and a pagan chaplain wanted to chant or pray or whatever to some other god than the one I worship, then I would take no part in it. Shouldn't pagans in the military do the same thing? No one is forcing anyone to be Christian just like no one is forcing me to be pagan. So why would anyone want to lobby against Christians to not use the word 'Jesus'? Isn't He the reason why we are Christians? It's illogical and senseless.

If pagans want military chaplains, go ahead. If your free to practice whatever religion in america, then why not in america's military as well. As long as it's not imposed or forced upon any individual, then go ahead. But how about not complaining just because there are more Christians than pagans, therefore more Christian chaplains. Basically, build a bridge and get over it! Ignore our prayers to Jesus if you want because surely I will ignore your prayers, chants (or whatever you do) to your pagan gods. Isn't that acceptable?

Go, Viejita!

John M.
BTW that's me asking.

John M. says:

"Here's a related question...
Is anyone aware that activists are lobbying hard right now to prevent Christian chaplains from mentioning 'Jesus'? What do those of you who think you are tolerant have to say about that?"

John, let me see if I understand you. You would be offended if a non-Christian chaplain asked us all to pray to the Great Goddess, or to Allah, or to Ameratsu or Krishna. Yet you feel non-Christians should be asked to pray in Jesus' name?

H.
I hope you caught the CNN program "Battlefield Breakdown," which (among other things) reported on the successful efforts of some military families to get upgraded transport for the troops...
John M.
Obviously you aren't understanding me right. I know perfectly well to whom I am praying, and neither chaplain is likely to use particularist language when praying with a member of a different faith. I just feel more confident that the Pagan minister will feel genuine sympathy for where I am coming from, while certain Christians might be trying too hard to "save" me (i.e. change my focus). So what is in the Pagan's heart is more likely to go in the same direction I'm going, unlike the hearts of some very well-meaning born again Christians.

Military should spend every penny from our tax dollars to give our soldiers better protection hardware, better care when they get hurt.

Chaplains seem to belong to the White House as they seem to need them more and more direction help.. (the highest office in the world.) May be a smart chaplain -whatever sect- will finally convince the President that he has been getting incorrect directions somehow.

H.

Here's a related question...
Is anyone aware that activists are lobbying hard right now to prevent Christian chaplains from mentioning 'Jesus'? What do those of you who think you are tolerant have to say about that?

Thank you for inspiring a possible grass roots campaign to eliminate and separate church and state once and for all. After all, the United States of America (notice... United, not divided - the civil war is over and look how that wound up) does owe it's respects to a man who was elected to form a working, democratic and fair constitution rather than a man who's beliefs of divine intervention was not permitted to lead Israel across the Jordan.

The whole point of my bringing up Solon in the first place was to try and establish the origination of government in relation to the general populations beliefs. Politics and religion should not be connected and is an individual choice.

When the government starts dictating and violating the freedoms of the military that defends and dies for those rights, I find it hard to see how America can continue to divide and survive the diversity among all human kind.

This particular question raising religious issues as a political one should really have nothing to do with one another. It is an American Freedom too freely taken for granted while blood still spills and has killed more soldiers for the sake of “GOD” in one way or another.

Mitakuye Oyasin

Thank you for inspiring a possible grass roots campaign to eliminate and separate church and state once and for all. After all, the United States of America (notice... United, not divided - the civil war is over and look how that wound up) does owe it's respects to a man who was elected to form a working, democratic and fair constitution rather than a man who's beliefs of divine intervention was not permitted to lead Israel across the Jordan.

The whole point of my bringing up Solon in the first place was to try and establish the origination of government in relation to the general populations beliefs. Politics and religion should not be connected and is an individual choice.

When the government starts dictating and violating the freedoms of the military that defends and dies for those rights, I find it hard to see how America can continue to divide and survive the diversity among all human kind.

This particular question raising religious issues as a political one should really have nothing to do with one another. It is an American Freedom too freely taken for granted while blood still spills and has killed more soldiers for the sake of “GOD” in one way or another.

Mitakuye Oyasin

David:

So, it looks like you and I found the same flaw in Solon's law. How funny is that? Guess it comes from knowing God's Word.

Oh hey there John M. Just wanted to say hi. Haven't seen ya around here in awhile. Glad to see you back brother!

Lady V,

Your solon commandments are quite....how should I say.....lame.

You said the best one is "do good things". Well, what constitues good things? In fact all your solon's commandments are quite vague. "Honor the gods"?? Which ones? There really only is one true God.

Here's # 4

Do not be hasty in making friends, but do not abandon them once made.

Here's #8

8. Do not associate with people who do bad things.

Ok so you meet a person and become their friend. They become addicted to drugs and rob people for drug money. Do you go with #4 and do not abandon them? Or do you go with#8 and not associate with them? HMMMM....seems like your little solon guy's "commandments" ran into a contradiction.

I'll stick with God. The only TRUE God of the Bible.

Lady Victoria:

I do not like this Solon guy.

What's with #8? Do not associate with people who do bad things? Wouldn't that rule out everyone? Is there anyone here who has NEVER done bad things? So, who decides which people have done enough bad things so that we have to isolate them from society? Is THIS tolerant? Are you kidding?

And, how about #4? "Do not be hasty in making friends, but do not abandon them once made." Why do I have to hesitate to make friends? Do I have to wait to see if they are good or bad? Isn't that judgmental? Isn't that a little cold? And, what if I make a friend, but then I learn that they do bad things? I am not supposed to associate with them according to commandment #8, but I am not supposed to abandon them accorsing to commandment #4. WHAT DO I DO? (Do you see the conflict between these two 'commandments'?)

WOW.

Solon is where I get my hair done.

So what you are saying (Lady Victoria) is that we should say "In Solon We Trust?" Oh and by the way if you knew anything about the Bible you would know Moses did not make up these Ten Commandments, but it was GOD who authorized and prescribed them.

Wow... I am just amazed as to the intolerance and lack of knowledge by those that speak of "religion".

What difference does it make to any Non Pagan if the military that fights for the freedoms so freely expressed, embraces the freedom to include a Pagan Chaplain in it's organization? What are the religious zealots fearful of?

There is no wrong path to finding individual spirituality and enlightenment with regards to personal belief. Good basic morals and ethics are more prevalent to a successful society than the hypocrisies that continue to divide this great nation.

The Real Ten Commandments
I keep hearing this chant, variously phrased: "The Ten Commandments are the foundation of Western morality and the American Constitution and government." In saying this, people are essentially crediting Moses with the invention of ethics, democracy and civil rights, a claim that is of course absurd. But its absurdity is eclipsed by its injustice, for there is another lawmaker who is far more important to us, whose ideas and actions lie far more at the foundation of American government, and whose own Ten Commandments were distributed at large and influencing the greatest civilizations of the West--Greece and Rome--for well over half a millennia before the laws of Moses were anything near a universal social influence. In fact, by the time the Ten Commandments of Moses had any real chance of being the foundation of anything in Western society, democracy and civil rights had all but died out, never to rise again until the ideals of our true hero, the real man to whom we owe all reverence, were rediscovered and implemented in what we now call "modern democratic principles."

The man I am talking about is Solon the Athenian. Solon was born, we believe, around 638 B.C.E., and lived until approximately 558, but the date in his life of greatest importance to us is the year he was elected to create a constitution for Athens, 594 B.C.E. How important is this man? Let's examine what we owe to him, in comparison with the legendary author (or at last, in legend, the transmitter) of the Judeo-Christian Ten Commandments. Solon is the founder of Western democracy and the first man in history to articulate ideas of equal rights for all citizens, and though he did not go nearly as far in the latter as we have come today, Moses can claim no connection to either. Solon was the first man in Western history to publicly record a civil constitution in writing. No one in Hebrew history did anything of the kind, least of all Moses. Solon advocated not only the right but even the duty of every citizen to bear arms in the defense of the state--to him we owe the 2nd Amendment. Nothing about that is to be found in the Ten Commandments of Moses. Solon set up laws defending the principles and importance of private property, state encouragement of economic trades and crafts, and a strong middle class--the ideals which lie at the heart of American prosperity, yet which cannot be credited at all to Moses.

Solon is the first man in history to eliminate birth as a basis for government office, and to create democratic assemblies open to all male citizens, such that no law could be passed without the majority vote of all. The notion of letting women into full political rights would not arise in any culture until that of modern Europe, but democracy never gets a single word in the Bible. Solon invented the right of appeal and trial by jury, whereby an assembly of citizens chosen at random, without regard for office or wealth or birth, gave all legal verdicts. Moses can claim nothing as fundamental as these developments, which are absolutely essential to modern society. The concept of taking a government official to court for malfeasance we owe to Solon. We read nothing of the kind about Moses. The idea of allowing foreigners who have mastered a useful trade to immigrate and become citizens is also an original invention of Solon--indeed, the modern concept of citizenship itself is largely indebted to him. There is nothing like this in the Bible. And like our own George Washington, Solon declined the offer to become ruler in his country, giving it a Constitution instead--unlike Moses who gave laws yet continued to reign. And Solon's selfless creation of the Athenian constitution set the course which led to the rise of the first universal democracy in the United States, and it was to Solon's Athens, not the Bible, that our Founding Fathers looked for guidance in constructing a new State. Moses can claim no responsibility for this. If we had Solon and no Moses, we would very likely still be where we are today. But if we had Moses and no Solon, democracy might never have existed at all.

So much for being the impetus behind our Constitution. The Ten Commandments of Moses have no connection with that, while the Constitution of Solon has everything to do with it. But what about ethics? Let us examine the Ten Commandments offered by each of these men and compare their worth and significance to Western society. Of course, neither man's list was unique to him--Moses was merely borrowing ideas that had already been chiseled in stone centuries before by Hammurabi, King of Babylon (and unlike the supposed tablets of Moses, the Stone of Hammurabi still exists and is on display in the Louvre). Likewise, Solon's Ten Ethical Dicta were a reflection and refinement of wisdom that was already ancient in his day. And in both cases the association of these men with their moral precepts is as likely legend as fact, but the existence and reverence for their sayings in their respective cultures was still real--and we can ask three questions: Which list of Ten Commandments lies more at the heart of modern Western moral ideals? Which contains concepts that are more responsible for our current social success and humanity? And which is more profound and more fitting for a free society?

The Ten Commandments of Moses (Deuteronomy 5:6-21, Exodus 20:3-16) run as follows--and I am even going out of my way to leave out the bounteous and blatantly-religious language that actually surrounds them in the original text, as well as the tacit approval of slavery present in the fourth commandment, none of which is even remotely suitable for political endorsement by a free republic:

1. Have no other gods before me [the God of the Hebrews].
2. Make no images of anything in heaven, earth or the sea, and do not worship or labor for them.
3. Do not vainly use the name of your God [the God of the Hebrews].
4. Do no work on the seventh day of the week.
5. Honor your parents.
6. Do not kill.
7. Do not commit adultery.
8. Do not steal.
9. Do not give false testimony against another.
10. Do not desire another's wife or anything that belongs to another.

Now, we can see at once that our society is entirely opposed to the first four, and indeed the last of these ten. As a capitalist society, we scoff at the idea of closing our shops on a choice market day. And our very goal in life is to desire--desiring is what drives us toward success and prosperity. The phrase "seeking the American Dream," which lies at the heart of our social world, has at its heart the very idea of coveting the success of our peers, goading us to match it with our own industry, and we owe all our monumental national success to this. Finally, our ideals of religious liberty and free speech, essential to any truly civil society, compel us to abhor the first three commandments. Thus, already half of Moses' doctrines cannot be the foundation of our modern society--to the contrary, they are anathema to modern ideals.

Of the rest, it can be assured that shunning adultery has never contributed to the rise of civil rights and democratic principles (despite much trying, there is no Adultery Amendment). It is naturally regarded as immoral--but then it always has been, by all societies, before and since the time of Moses, for the simple reason that it, like lying, theft, and murder, does harm to others, and thus these commandments are as redundant as they are unprofound. They can be more usefully summed up with just three words: do no harm. These words comprise the first commandment of another Greek moralist whose contribution to society lies at the very heart of modern reality: the founder of scientific medicine, Hippocrates.

Finally, we are left with only one commandment, to honor our parents. This of course has been a foundational principle of every society ever since such things as "societies" existed. Yet the greatest advances in civil rights and civic moral consciousness in human history occurred precisely as the result not of obeying, but of disobeying this very commandment: the social revolutions of the sixties, naturally abhorred by conservatives and yet spearheaded by rebellious teenagers and young adults, nevertheless secured the moral rights of women and minorities--something unprecedented in human history--and by opposing the Vietnam war, our children displayed for the first time a massive popular movement in defense of the very pacifism which Christians boast of having introduced into the world, yet are usually the last to actually stand up for. It can even be said that our entire moral ethos is one of thinking for ourselves, of rebellion and moral autonomy, of daring to stand up against even our elders when our conscience compels it. Thus, it would seem that even this commandment does not lie at the heart of our modern society--it is largely an anachronism, lacking the essential nuances that a more profound ethic promotes.

Let us now turn to the Ten Commandments of Solon (Diogenes Laertius, Lives of Eminent Philosophers, 1.60), which run as follows:

1. Trust good character more than promises.
2. Do not speak falsely.
3. Do good things.
4. Do not be hasty in making friends, but do not abandon them once made.
5. Learn to obey before you command.
6. When giving advice, do not recommend what is most pleasing, but what is most useful.
7. Make reason your supreme commander.
8. Do not associate with people who do bad things.
9. Honor the gods.
10. Have regard for your parents.

Unlike the Commandments of Moses, none of these is outdated or antithetical to modern moral or political thought. Every one could be taken up by anyone today, of any creed--except perhaps only one. And indeed, there is something much more profound in these commandments. They are far more useful as precepts for living one's life. Can society, can government, prevail and prosper if we fail to uphold the First Commandment of Moses? By our own written declaration of religious liberty for all, we have staked our entire national destiny on the belief that we not only can get by without it, but we ought to abolish it entirely. Yet what if we were to fail to uphold Solon's first commandment? The danger to society would be clear--indeed, doesn't this commandment speak to the heart of what makes or breaks a democratic society? Isn't it absolutely fundamental that we not trust the promises of politicians and flatterers, but elect our leaders and choose our friends instead by taking the trouble to evaluate the goodness of their character? This, then, can truly be said to be an ideal that is fundamental to modern moral and political thought.

Now, two of the commandments of Solon are almost identical to those advocated by Moses: do not speak falsely, and have regard for your parents. Of course, Solon does not restrict his first injunction to false accusations or testimony against others, as Moses does. Solon's commandment is more profound and thus more fundamental, and is properly qualified by the other commandments in just the way we believe is appropriate--for Solon's rules allow one to lie if doing so is a good deed (no such prescription to do good appears in the Ten Commandments of Moses). And whereas Moses calls us to honor our parents (in the Hebrew, from kabed, "to honor, to glorify"), Solon's choice of words is more appropriate--he only asks us to treat our parents in a respectful way (in the Greek, from aideomai, "to show a sense of regard for, to have compassion upon"), which we can do even if we disobey or oppose them, and even if we disapprove of their character and thus have no grounds to honor them.

In contrast with Moses, Solon wastes no words with legalisms--he sums up everything in three words: do good things. This is an essential moral principle, lacking from the commands of Moses, which allows one to qualify all the others. And instead of simply commanding us to follow rules, Solon's commandments involve significant social and political advice: temper our readiness to rebel and to do our own thing (which Solon does not prohibit) by learning first how to follow others; take care when making friends, and stick by them; always give good advice--don't just say what people want to hear; shun bad people. It can be said without doubt that this advice is exactly what we need in order to be successful and secure--as individuals, as communities, and even as a nation. The ideals represented by these commandments really do rest at the foundation of modern American morality and society, and would be far more useful for school children whose greatest dangers are peer influence, rashness and naiveté.

There is but one that might give a secularist pause: Solon's commandment to honor the gods (in the Greek, timaô, "to honor, to revere, to pay due regard"). Yet when we compare it to the similar First Three Commandments of Moses, we see how much more Solon's single religious commandment can be made to suit our society and our civic ideals: it does not have to restrict religious freedom, for it does not demand that we believe in anyone's god or follow anyone's religious rules. It remains in the appropriate plural. Solon asks us to give the plethora of gods the regard that they are due, and we can say that some gods are not due much--such as the racist gods and gods of hellfire. In the end, it is good to be respectful of the gods of others, which we can do even if we are criticizing them, even if we disbelieve in them. This would remain true to our most prized American ethic of religious liberty and civility. Though it might better be rendered now, "Respect the religions of others," there is something fitting in admitting that there are many gods, the many that people invent and hope for.

It is clear then, that if anyone's commandments ought to be posted on school and courthouse walls, it should be Solon's. He has more right as the founder of our civic ideals, and as a more profound and almost modern moral thinker. His commandments are more befitting our civil society, more representative of what we really believe and what we cherish in our laws and economy. And indeed, in the end, they are essentially secular. Is it an accident that when Solon's ideals reigned, there grew democracies and civil rights, and ideals we now consider fundamental to modern Western society, yet when the ideals of Moses replaced them, we had a thousand years of oppression, darkness, and tyranny? Is it coincidence that when the ideals of Moses were replaced with those of Solon, when men decided to fight and die not for the Ten Commandments but for the resurrection of Athenian civil society, we ended up with the great Democratic Revolutions and the social and legal structures that we now take for granted as the height and glory of human achievement and moral goodness? I think we owe our thanks to Solon. Moses did nothing for us--his laws were neither original nor significant in comparison. When people cry for the hanging of the Ten Commandments of Moses on school and court walls, I am astonished. Solon's Ten Commandments have far more right to hang in those places than those of Moses. The Athenian's Commandments are far more noble and profound, and far more appropriate to a free society. Who would have guessed this of a pagan? Maybe everyone of sense.

The First Amendment in the Bill of Rights is there for a reason and should be accepted by ALL Americans!

So to answer the original question, I have no problem with a Pagan Chaplain or Public Official and feel it should not make any difference, as long as they do the job elected to do - serve the will of the constituents that elect them.

Viejita:

So, rather than pray to Jesus with a 'fundamentalist' who might possibly think you are somehow an idolator, you would rather pray to a false god or goddess with a 'pagan' and actually commit idolatry? Am I understanding that right?

David & Anon
As far as I can tell, Pagans don't think they are perfect any more than you or I do. They just feel a little more uncomfortable judging others than some Christians around here seem to. Remember "Judge not, that ye not be judged," or "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone," or "Do not criticize the speck in your neighbor's eye until you've removed the plank from your own."?? They're in my Bible, maybe yours too....
As a Catholic, I would be more comfortable praying with a Pagan chaplain than with a fundamentalist Christian who I knew was expecting me to go to Hell for my supposed idolatry. As for the ability to provide personal counseling to members of all faiths, including no faith: I'd direct you again to the various lawsuits, including Mikey Weinstein 's against the Air Force Academy and those of several chaplains in defense of their so-called free speech rights.

What does this even mean? First of all why would one want a "Pagan chaplain?" I think our culture/soldiers are fine sinning on their own; we don't need a designated person to specifically show them the road to hedonism! Well, that is unless Locke and Rousseau were right about man being a "blank slate" when born, but come on we all know that was an erroneous blunder. But I guess if its all for the sake of "LIBERTY" give them liberty (i.e.,a pagan chaplain), or give them death! I just think this country need to come back to the One True Living GOD.....

Nikki,

You said that you keep the 10 commandments better than Christians do. Well, I guess your probably not doing too well with commandment #1. "No other gods". #2 not so hot either. "no idolatry". You ever say G. Da__it? I guess not so well on #3 either. #4 sabbath day, probably not handling that one very well as well. #5 honoring your mom and pops. I'm sure your fine with that, right? #6 murder....I hope not or I'm calling police. #7 Adultery. If your married and ever looked at another man with lustful eyes that's considered adultery according to Jesus. I've done it. I'm sure you have too. #8 stealing? C'mon now put that candy bar back on the shelf! #9 false testimony?? i dunno? #10 coveting your neighbor? Maybe?? So really are you doing better? Have you done better at keeping these commandments than Christians? I haven't done so good with them. I know I do good with # 1 though. Either way I broke the law and I'm a lawbreaker and deserving of eternal seperation from God. But I'm redeemed by faith in Christ. How 'bout you?

Victoria,

And just how many Pagans have you met? You have significant general commentary but never any specifics. We are still waiting for your reference about the number of people dying alone.

And you poor soul, still trapped by Islamic "brainwash". Still trapped in a belief in angels (aka "pretty wingy talking thingies" and devils (aka "demons of the demented). Still trapped believing in an illiterate, hallucinating, warmongering Arab and his scribes. And still trapped in a "koranic cult" that dictates no escape.

Every man and woman serving this country deserves to have spiritual representation. That representation should not concerned with brow beating them into conforming them into a religion that is not their own.

If they are putting their life blood on the line for the sake of this government and its policies. For the traditions of their family. For the sake of patriotism. They should not face prejudice and judgmental attitudes concerning the way they wish to worship.

I can assure you that the numbers that are currently being quoted are inaccurate; I personally know at least 100 more soldiers who are serving, who do not state that they are pagan for fear of repercussions.

It is asinine for these individuals to be asked to seek spiritual guidance out of some misbegotten attitude of historical inaccuracy of what our forefathers founded this country on. Try actually studying the history of these men. Try actually learning when "In God We Trust" was added to our money and "Under God" was added to our pledge.

Every soldier deserves to have their needs met. Period.

To me, I find this very disturbing and sad that this debate even exists. If you are not a pagan, why do you care if pagans have a chaplain? How is it going to effect you on way or the other? And why do you care if there are so many different sects/traditions/forms of paganism that you wouldn't know which one to send? You do realize that there are just as many if not more forms of Christianity, right? And they vary quite a bit from Catholicism to Jehova's Witnesses, Seventh day Adventists to Mormons, Opus dei types to Christian Scientists. All believe completely different things, the only universal bond is Jesus. Now, this is funny...I'm a wiccan (or that type of pagan) and i believe in Jesus. Jesus was awesome, no doubt about it. Its a shame that most of his followers have made a mockery of him.
Pagans (oops there is that generalization again) or Wiccans (my system of belief) hold themselves responsible for all of their thoughts/acts/etc. We probably follow then ten commandments better than any Christians I've ever met. Why? Because there is no mitigating a shortcut, no simple act of begging for forgiveness. We understand that what we put out reflects back, and we do our best to harm none with thought/action/deed. If most Christians would try this simple concept, the world would truly become a better place to live.
Do you know what probably one of the biggest differences between the pagans (in general) and the christians (in general) is? We have this little thing called tolerance, and acceptance. Its a beautiful thing, really. I can look at the most crazed Christian zealot and say that I'm happy that he/she has faith, and as long as it doesn't impinge on mine we can be best friends. I won't try and burn him at the stake or say "Oh look...you've got a freckle on your butt, its the devils mark now we must tie a rock to you and throw you into the lake. If you float, your a witch...if not, oops your dead. But don't worry about that...you might get into heaven."

The things that have been done in the name of intolerance (and no, not just Christianity, but they're probably in one of the top spots) are horrible. What is history, if not a lesson to be learned? Can't you people see that something this small, that doesn't effect you on a personal level, can gather momentum and get out of control until we are burning/being burned in the street, with our children watching and eating popcorn? Lemme guess your response...Oh not in this day and age...we're to enlightened for that. How long ago was it that we sat and watched as Hitler persecuted millions? Or as innocent blacks were hung for the color of their skin? How long has it been since a black woman was finally allowed to sit in the front of the bus? It hasn't been nearly long enough folks.

It's time to wake up and smell the horror. Each and every one of you is responsible for your own thoughts and actions, and what you put out into the world. What you do or don't contribute, its all up to you...one decision at a time. Are you going to continue being a caveman, or an assistant to genocide, or are you going to step up despite what your friends and neighbors think and stand for the rights of others, EVEN if they are not your own beliefs, EVEN if they conflict with what you believe. AS LONG AS IT HARMS NONE, let it be so. This is what our founding fathers had in mind, and being a pagan isn't un-american. Not standing for the rights of others is.

I just hope them Pagans won't start eating people in my neighborhood.

Okay, it seems to me that this is a pretty cut and dry issue. First Amendment rights and all that. If the men and women in the military are prepared to lay down their lives in service to our country, then isn't it our duty as citizens of a free society to uphold the standards of freedom for which they fight? And that means freedom of religion. If you allow one religion have a chaplian, you MUST allow all religions who ask to have a chaplain. The seperation of church and state is an all-or-nothing deal, and a slippery slope to boot.

And as heartening as it is to see so many responses defending the rights of minority citizens, it is equally upsetting to see the intolerance and prostelytizing by the obviously ignorant. Perhaps these folks should consider that the First Amendment also protects their rights to speak their minds so freely, and once we start limiting one group's rights, others will also soon be restricted. That dang slippery slope again.

And as for voting for someone who identifies as some kind of Pagan, well, that would depend entirely on their stances and qualifications. In the state I went to college, one man attempted to run for office - I think it was the last presidential election - as a Pagan candidate. However, this man was also a completely bizarre and shadey whacko who claimed to be a vampire of some kind. Despite the fact he tried to rally support from other Pagans (of the non-whacko variety) they all agreed that he was, in fact, entirely unsuitable and mentally unstable.

Now, if only the far-right Christians could claim to be as discriminating in the act of casting a vote. Bush has already tried to take Wicca *out* of the chaplain's guide, and that didn't fly. I don't see why we should let him and his military slither out of including it by disallowing Wiccan/Pagan/Druid/Shaman chaplains to function in the same capacity as other, equal, members of the clergy of other denominations of faith.

As a loyal, taxpaying American, I find this debate irritating in that it even needs to be debated.

As a Pagan, I find this debate offensive because it challenges the rights deemed inalienable and gifted to me by the founders of our great country. It infuriates me because so many people seem so quick to claim that my beliefs are wrong and inferior and not worth respecting. They dare to judge my spirituality invalid simply because it can't be put in a neat little book with archaic language.

I am an eclectic Pagan. I have no explicit dogma to speak of, but I have ethics, values, and honor. I am loath to use the word "morals" because of the connotation it has garnered after being kicked around so flippantly by people who are anything but moral. The leader of our military can lie about his reasons for picking a fight halfway across the globe, give his friends get-out-of-jail-free cards, waive habeas corpus for the rest of us, and thumb his nose at the very Constitution he is sworn to uphold. Yet he is moral and I am not, because he pays lipservice to a mainstream deity and I'm just some hippie tree-hugger heathen.

Not that I'm bitter. But in the immortal words of Monty Python, "Help, I'm bein' oppressed!"

I personally dont think there are alot of pagans or wiccans who have any antipathy towards jesus(ata)

ive met many in my life who have expressed a real love for jesus(ata) and his message.

i can honestly say i dont recall ever hearing a person of a more naturalist bent invoking any hatred towards jesus(ata0 at all-

ive definitely heard admiration and respect.

it has been the actions of christians in the name of jesus- the persecutions and hostility-

and i dont think jesus(ata) would condone the actions of those who seek to judge others anyway- since he pretty clearly said- judge not lest ye be judged.

muslims have a verse from the qu'ran that is repeated througout-
"ALLAH will judge you with the mercy with which you have judged others."

peace

http://www.milpagan.org/media/statistics.html is the cited source of the # of Pagans in the US military. A Defense Department reference would be the only real source of accurate information.

But let us do the math anyway: 4300 Pagans/6702 military bases (http://www.globalpolicy.org/empire/intervention/2004/01bases.htm) or less than one Pagan per base on average. Of course that is a bit too easy since most personnel are on large bases like Ft. Dix. Anyone know the number of Pagans at Ft. Dix??? But who knows maybe the Pentagon takes religious backgrounds into consideration and sends one Pagan to every US military base here and abroad to spread the good word????

I wonder which uniform Jesus would wear?

I find it interesting to see people mention about Christian "Morals and Values" and at the same time keep reading in the news about high profile Christian leaders who are caught embezzling, swindling, adultry and so much more. Guess that all fits in to their ideas of "Morals and Values".

Pagans have one thing in common:

Do as you will and harm none!

You have free will to do as you choose as long as you do not hurt anyone else. That harm would be physical harm or personal harm. Now if someone doesn't agree with pagan ideals, then it is not harm since the only thing being hurt is their belief system.

Christianity is considered a book religion. A book that was written by men. Men who thought very little about women and even less about those who did not agree with them. It was 1 man who put the bible together, he chose what was put in it and what was left out.

Yes there is a lot of ideals of what paganism is and isn't, and that's because not 1 man decided which direction to take the religion in. It is an individualized religion.

No matter what your belief is, we all pray to the same god. We all just name god differently. There is only 1 creator, who created everything. How you interpret that is up to you.

So yes, there should be Pagan ministers in the military. There should NOT be just 1 faith's minister to service the military.

As for seperation of church and state that line is being crossed more and more lately. What our leaders are basing their "Morality and Values" on is what they are taught to believe according to their faith. Most, not all, are basing our laws on religious ideals.

It's all how you want to interpret the bible. Each person's interpretation and understanding of the bible will be different. So there is another thing that "Book Religions" and Paganism have in common.

It's all up to the individual's interpretation as to what their religious beliefs are.

Military Pagan Network, specifically the page that quotes the 4,300 number:

http://www.milpagan.org/media/statistics.html

Pagan Veterans:

http://www.paganvets.org/

P. eople

A. gainst

G. od

A. re

N. ot

S. aved

Jesus loves you. Will you love Him back?

The foundation of all current religions was ancient pagan religions.

The Christian and the Muslim faiths are offshoots of Judaism traditions. Judaism is a product of the religions that preceded it in the Middle East.

Europe had many religions before Christianity. When Christianity moved into Europe it incorporated many of the indigenous pagan aspects such as Christmas tress, holy, and many others.

There have been thousands of religions throughout history. All current religions are evolutionary products of the religions that preceded them.

Our current religions owe a dept of gratitude to the “pagan” religions that laid the foundations for their current existence.

It would be appropriate to honor those “pagan” religions that blazed the path toward our current stable of “truer” religions by allowing modern day pagan priests to serve in the military as chaplains for those who still believe in the old ways.

As far as voting for a pagan I remember reading somewhere that religion would not be a requirement for serving in public office at the federal or state level.

O yell that be the constitution

The "no religious test" clause of the United States Constitution is found in Article VI, section 3, and states that:

“ ...no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States."

Here it is in full

“All Debts contracted and Engagements entered into, before the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Confederation.
This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.

The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

And, we all have the right to our religion or lack of without government interference.

The constitution of the United says so:

Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
[edit] Amendment XIV, Section 1
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

I would vote for a candidate based on policies not religion because I am a loyal U.S. citizen and a strong supporter of the U.S. constitution.

Lots and lots of "historical" comments and other information with no references. Commentary without proof falls on deaf ears.

Yes,

If I was given a choice between Bush, Hillary, and a decent upstanding honest Pagan...

Absolutely, the Pagan wins.

A couple other points:

I am still shocked that the WaPo would post a topic title on Pagans suggesting that a regular practice of some Pagans happens to be 'Human Sacrifice'. <<<in a subtitle a couple days ago. That is irresponsible journalism and clear cut propaganda.

The US military would have saved the tax payer a boat load of money if they'd just provide a few Pagan ministers. All the effort to slander and refuse acknowledgement is wasteful and wrong.

AS FOR TODAY'S front page subtitle: The same thing can be said about Christianity. There are many many Christian faiths that do not agree.

Ummmmm How many wars have been fought over the various christian ideals in the past 100 years?

Now, how many wars have the Pagans created?

"Would you vote for a Pagan for public office?"

Why not?

A candidate's professed religion tells you nothing about them. President Bush makes a lot of noise about his supposed faith in Jesus, but as governor of Texas he had 150-some people executed; many of these people received shoddy legal aid - some lawyers even slept through trials. Bush even mocked a woman on death row, who repented, and had been born again. He only commuted one death sentence as governor.

On the other hand, he commuted a sentence of just 30 months in a cushy Federal prison for his former aid, and current accomplice, Scooter Libby.

He has also put forward policies that condone torture, and has reserved the right to torture.

Some Christian! Bush sounds more like Nero than Jesus.

A pagan person might make a better or worse President than Bush, but it won't have anything to do with religion.

'Pagan' is a pejorative term invented by christians to demean anyone who had beliefs that were 'non-biblical'.

373 AD: New prohibition of all divination methods is issued. The term “pagan” (pagani, villagers, equivalent to the modern insult, “peasants”) is introduced by the Christians to demean non-believers.

Romans thought themselves to be urbane and sophisticated... everybody else was a 'hick'. Similarly, in the Western part of the empire, such people were 'heathens'... i.e., people who lived among the 'heath'... 'rural'.

The Christian hierarchy passed laws that made all 'pagan' belief punishable by torture and execution. All 'pagan' knowledge was ordered to be destroyed. Of course, this included over 1,000 years worth of Greek, Roman, Egyptian, etc., knowledge and lore... astronomy... science... literature... engineering... medicine... all the good stuff. This was the beginning of a 1,000 year 'Reign of Terror'... 'holocaust'... whatever you want to call it. For example, it was not until around the time of World War I that medical knowledge was restored to where it was near the end of the Roman Empire.

Up until the Enlightenment, and the ensuing 'Age of Reason', christianity retained the political power to boil you in oil if THEY thought that YOUR thoughts were 'heretical'... i.e., non-biblical. After the ideals of secular humanism (human rights, etc.)emerged from the 'Age of Reason' though, christianity was deprived of the political power that had previously allowed them to do things like that.

I think that the term 'Paganism' was chosen as kind of an in-your-face nose-thumbing at christianity. There is a good reason why so many disparate belief systems exist under the aegis of 'paganism'... because, from the very beginning, it meant anything that was not 'biblical'. If you were a Greek philosopher, for example, you were... by definition... a 'Pagan'... and you were subject, BY LAW, to being tortured and killed.

335 AD: Constantine sacks many pagan temples in Asia Minor and Palestine and orders the execution by crucifixion of “all magicians and soothsayers.” Martyrdom of the neoplatonist philosopher Sopatrus.

370 AD: Valens orders a tremendous persecution of non-Christian peoples in all the Eastern Empire. In Antioch, among many other non-Christians, the ex-governor Fidustius and the priests Hilarius and Patricius are executed. The philosopher Simonides is burned alive and the philosopher Maximus is decapitated. All the friends of Julian are persecuted (Orebasius, Sallustius, Pegasius etc.).

391 AD: On 24th February, a new edict of Theodosius prohibits not only visits to pagan temples but also looking at the vandalised statues. New heavy persecutions occur all around the empire. In Alexandria, Egypt, pagans, led by the philosopher Olympius, revolt and after some street fights they lock themselves inside the fortified temple of the god Serapis (the Serapeion). After a violent siege, the Christians take over the building, demolish it, burn its famous library and profane the cult images.

415 AD: In Alexandria, the Christian mob, urged by the bishop Cyril, attacks a few days before the Judeo-Christian Pascha (Easter) and cuts to pieces the famous and beautiful philosopher Hypatia. The pieces of her body, carried around by the Christian mob through the streets of Alexandria, are finally burned together with her books in a place called Cynaron.

457 to 491 AD: Sporadic persecutions against the pagans of the Eastern Empire. Among others, the physician Jacobus and the philosopher Gessius are executed. Severianus, Herestios, Zosimus, Isidorus and others are tortured and imprisoned. The proselytiser Conon and his followers exterminate the last non-Christians of Imbros Island, Northeast Aegean Sea. The last worshippers of Lavranius Zeus are exterminated in Cyprus.

529 AD: Justinian outlaws the Athenian Philosophical Academy and has its property confiscated.

Anyway... I applaud the adoption of the term 'Pagan'... it's a good way of saying "Nyah, nyah... you can't boil me in oil anymore." I'd be careful, though... if the christian 'dominionist' conspiracy succeeds (and it IS succeeding... look it up)... then soon they MAY have the political power (again) to boil you in oil, along with us atheists, agnostics, etc.

Until then, though... I think you guys deserve to have a chaplain, if you want one... while you can.

SU:

Actually, the word 'religion' does appear in the Bible:
Acts 25:19
Acts 26:5
1 Timothy 5:4
James 1:26

It is not used to refer to a set of rules I have to follow, but the word is technically found in the Bible.

Hey Pagans, welcome to the club! You know, the club where the Washington Post’s “on Faith” section ask questions like, are they American, are they dangerous, are they even human? Previously it had just been us Atheist, and occasionally Muslims, but welcome anyway. Now there is another group of no-Christian for the Post to spit on.

Hey Pagans, welcome to the club! You know, the club where the Washington Post’s “on Faith” section ask questions like, are they American, are they dangerous, are they even human? Previously it had just been us Atheist, and occasionally Muslims, but welcome anyway. Now there is another group of no-Christian for the Post to spit on.

The Wiccan Rede sums it up in 8 words "An it harm none, do what ye will." It takes the "christians 10 "commandments" to say basically the same thing. Society is brainwashed by crap like "Charmed" and "Blair Witch". Read, people!! Educate yourself before you condemn someone else. Isn't America's premise freedom??? Organized religion is just man-made rules that are crutches for people who need help getting through life. By the way, the word religion is not even in the Bible.

Certainly a pagan should be in the White House. The White House Department of Faith-Based Pork-Barrel Initiatives discriminates against people of faith, especially pagans. Moonie is not a religion, and Bush's so-called religion is just a Moonie who worships oil. The enemies of God (Bush and the loyal Bushies) must be hunted down by all pagans and patriots in the military so that the real God can retake the White House.

Certainly a pagan should be in the White House. The White House Department of Faith-Based Pork-Barrel Initiatives discriminates against people of faith, especially pagans. Moonie is not a religion, and Bush's so-called religion is just a Moonie who worships oil. The enemies of God (Bush and the loyal Bushies) must be hunted down by all pagans and patriots in the military so that the real God can retake the White House.

Pagans, Chritians, Muslims, Jews, ect. all are varied in their beliefs. Pagans want a Chaplain let them have one, most religions are allowed to be represented by someone of their faith during crisis so why is it even an issue?

There are probably more sects of Christianity than there are of those whom are Pagans. I think any soldier who is involved in an illegal war, against Islam needs to get in touch with their spritual side. Your going in to help kill, maime people who did not ask for the Americans to invade their country you will need all the forgiveness of your diety can give to you.

War is an option of last resort,a true Christian is against this war and all wars that are immoral. For God and Country, not for Greed and Idiocy.

Please give references to back your statements:

e.g. official # of Pagans in the military,

the Wiccan codes,

"Military Pagans (the majority of whom are Wiccan) in totality currently outnumber Buddhists, and they are closing fast on both Jewish and Muslim numbers (if not past them already)"

"I do believe that a goodly number of the gentlemen signing our country's Declaration of Independence and the Bill Of Rights etc. were well known as Deists, they believed in a Superior Being but not in organized religion."

"In a previous post, I said that there were approximately 1500 Pagans in the military. That's incorrect. The Military Pagan Network states on their website that there are around 4,300 people declaring some sort of Pagan (Wiccan, Asatru, Druid, etc.) in the Armed Forces. The 1500 number is just for the U.S. Army. (Military Pagan Network's web address??????????)

Daniel,

I can't speak for the spiritual beliefs of Ted Nugents, Jimmy Paige, or anyone from Metallica. Just because someone uses pre-Christian imagery in their songs does NOT make them a Pagan. Jim Morrison was married to a Wiccan Priestess, Patricia Kennealy, back in the day. Pagans do make wonderful music, but they rarely sell out to the big record companies in order to make lots of money.

As for Pagan authors with weird names - like Starhawk and Silver Ravenwolf - I guess it's illegal for people to use names besides ones they were given? Like, Reginald Kenneth Dwight (Elton John) or Michael Lee Aday (Meat Loaf)?

The Wiccan rede sums it up in 8 words that takes the "christians" 10 commandements to say- "An it harm none, do what ye will". There are many forms of other religions out there, so why criticize paganism? Society is brainwashed by such claptrap as "Charmed", "Blair Witch", etc. Read, people! Educate yourself before condemning someone else. By the way, the word "religion" isn't even in the Bible.

m972k

The Wiccan rede is 8 simple words: "An it harm none, do what ye will." Takes the Christians 10 "commandments" to say that. Society is blinded and mislead by such crap as "charmed", "Blair Witch", etc. Read, people! Educate yourself before spouting off that one religion is "better" than any other. Organized religion is man-made rules that some people need as crutches to get through life. What could be better than a nature-based...for lack of a better word...religion, which by the way is a word not mentioned in the Bible. This is America last time I checked, even though most signs are in Spanish but that's another argument altogether. We have the freedom to choose what path to follow and as long as no one hurts anyone else, then "do your own thing".

The Wiccan rede is 8 simple words: "An it harm none, do what ye will." Takes the Christians 10 "commandments" to say that. Society is blinded and mislead by such crap as "charmed", "Blair Witch", etc. Read, people! Educate yourself before spouting off that one religion is "better" than any other. Organized religion is man-made rules that some people need as crutches to get through life. What could be better than a nature-based...for lack of a better word...religion, which by the way is a word not mentioned in the Bible. This is America last time I checked, even though most signs are in Spanish but that's another argument altogether. We have the freedom to choose what path to follow and as long as no one hurts anyone else, then "do your own thing".

m937k

Why does the military need chaplains at all? Certainly not to tell them thou shalt not kill. What happened to the separation of church and state?

To see this debate that pagans are not in agreement as an argument against pagan chaplains is a farce. You can say that about Cristians, Jews, and Muslims as well.

Religion is one of the most divisive concepts ever divised by man.

Of course the military should have Pagan chaplains. And it was criminal what the U.S. government put Pagan families of fallen soldiers through to get a Pentagram on their headstone.

Absolutely would vote for a Pagan/Wiccan for any public office, including the Presidency. It's freightening to think of conservative Christians in public office.

Well, from a Godless point of view, this is an amusing thread. I am always curious why believers are not troubled that 93 percent of the members of the National Academy of Science do not believe in some form of a God? Simply put, a dash of logic leads to one inescapable conclusion that the various conflicting Gods are simply man made and based not on reality but wishful thinking. “God” is nothing more than your imaginary friend reinvented to comfort you as an adult. That being said, if people derive comfort from imaginary friends, that’s fine and it would be discriminatory not to have Pagan chaplains.

Well, from a Godless point of view, this is an amusing thread. I am always curious why believers are not troubled that 93 percent of the members of the National Academy of Science do not believe in some form of a God? Simply put, a dash of logic leads to one inescapable conclusion that the various conflicting Gods are simply man made and based not on reality but wishful thinking. “God” is nothing more than your imaginary friend reinvented to comfort you as an adult. That being said, if people derive comfort from imaginary friends, that’s fine and it would be discriminatory not to have Pagan chaplains.

Those who want a chaplain of their faith should have their wishes respected. This country was founded on principles of religious freedom for all citizens. Pagans in the military are serving their country as bravely and honorably as individuals of other faiths. They are defending the very Constitution that guarantees religious freedom to all Americans. To deny them the right to worship as they choose while serving their country would be an affront to the values we are all supposed to hold dear.

Peacetroll, "Read and learn of Christ Jesus; turn away from fairy tales and ignorance."

I have. And the only two major reasons that I have been able to were named Saul/Paul (betcha didn't think I knew about that dude changing his name when he converted, huh?) and Constantine. If Saul/Paul hadn't done his traveling, Christianity would've just been another part of Judaism. Afterall, back in that era there were a thousand such teachers wandering around. And Constantine just mainly picked it up for a political gain.

If all that had not've been the case, most of us (of mixed Irish-Scottish and Amerind descent at least) in the U.S. might be offering a burnt sage herb offering to Breed (Bridget) and Finn MacCool right now. Who knows? History is a funny thing that can turn on a whim....

Fairy tales? How would you feel if I called your beloved Jesus's resurection a scientifically unproven fairy tale? They did, afterall, have tomb robbery back in the day....

Peacetroll, "Read and learn of Christ Jesus; turn away from fairy tales and ignorance."

I have. And the only two major reasons that I have been able to were named Saul/Paul (betcha didn't think I knew about that dude changing his name when he converted, huh?) and Constantine. If Saul/Paul hadn't done his traveling, Christianity would've just been another part of Judaism. Afterall, back in that era there were a thousand such teachers wandering around. And Constantine just mainly picked it up for a political gain.

If all that had not've been the case, most of us (of mixed Irish-Scottish and Amerind descent at least) in the U.S. might be offering a burnt sage herb offering to Breed (Bridget) and Finn MacCool right now. Who knows? History is a funny thing that can turn on a whim....

Fairy tales? How would you feel if I called your beloved Jesus's resurection a scientifically unproven fairy tale? They did, afterall, have tomb robbery back in the day....

The founder of modern Christianity was a pagan named Constantine. He was a shrewd politician who saw the obvious advantage of one god, (or at most three), demanding absolute obedience.

I am responding to this commentary as a Pagan that is currently serving in the military.
In the navy people go to chaplains for guidance and/or just a kind unbiased voice to talk to. I have had many fellow soldiers tell me about how they were helped by chaplains through the difficult times of their life.
Sadly, I was not able to experience that positive event because I am pagan. In 2003 I was on deployment and was going through a difficult time with a death in the family and other family problems that came all at once. I needed some support and I went to speak with a christian chaplain, because of the advice of a friend. When I went to see this christian chaplain I recieved an extremly cold response because of my religion. Because of this experience I have refused to see a christian chaplain ever again.
The whole point of this story is that there is a large number of pagans in the military and we deserve support. I also believe that this decision is up to those of us that are in the military putting our lives on the line. I gladly put my life on the line for my country and family, and all I ask in return is equal treatment in all things including religion. Thank you to all of those people that are willing to fight for equality for those of us that fight for our country.

I am responding to this commentary as a Pagan that is currently serving in the military.
In the navy people go to chaplains for guidance and/or just a kind unbiased voice to talk to. I have had many fellow soldiers tell me about how they were helped by chaplains through the difficult times of their life.
Sadly, I was not able to experience that positive event because I am pagan. In 2003 I was on deployment and was going through a difficult time with a death in the family and other family problems that came all at once. I needed some support and I went to speak with a christian chaplain, because of the advice of a friend. When I went to see this christian chaplain I recieved an extremly cold response because of my religion. Because of this experience I have refused to see a christian chaplain ever again.
The whole point of this story is that there is a large number of pagans in the military and we deserve support. I also believe that this decision is up to those of us that are in the military putting our lives on the line. I gladly put my life on the line for my country and family, and all I ask in return is equal treatment in all things including religion. Thank you to all of those people that are willing to fight for equality for those of us that fight for our country.

I am responding to this commentary as a Pagan that is currently serving in the military.
In the navy people go to chaplains for guidance and/or just a kind unbiased voice to talk to. I have had many fellow soldiers tell me about how they were helped by chaplains through the difficult times of their life.
Sadly, I was not able to experience that positive event because I am pagan. In 2003 I was on deployment and was going through a difficult time with a death in the family and other family problems that came all at once. I needed some support and I went to speak with a christian chaplain, because of the advice of a friend. When I went to see this christian chaplain I recieved an extremly cold response because of my religion. Because of this experience I have refused to see a christian chaplain ever again.
The whole point of this story is that there is a large number of pagans in the military and we deserve support. I also believe that this decision is up to those of us that are in the military putting our lives on the line. I gladly put my life on the line for my country and family, and all I ask in return is equal treatment in all things including religion. Thank you to all of those people that are willing to fight for equality for those of us that fight for our country.

This July 4th, pagans rallied outside the white house. They want the military to add a pagan chaplain. Should they get one? Would you vote for a pagan for public office?

This is one of those questions which I classify as most annoying. I remember recoiling at homosexuals usurping the word "gay"--a truly wonderful word--so that now no one can use it without thinking about homosexuality, and now we have these "pagans" literally revising history before our very eyes with their notion of paganism when anyone with a basic understanding of history knows that there are literally thousands of varieties of paganism--thousands of different Gods and Goddesses corresponding to tribes underlying Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, etc.--and it is literally impossible to speak of a universal paganism.

Take these pagans of today: would they consider Ted Nugent a pagan when Nugent for all his God, guns and country is clearly something of an atavism (just listen to his wonderful song Hibernation off "Double live Gonzo") and is more in tune with nature than probably most "pagans"? Or how about James Hetfield of Metallica? Would "pagans" consider him a pagan when clearly the Metallica "black" album with its strains of Euro-Asiatic music harks back to our forebears who gave birth to Greek, Sanskrit and Latin? Or how about the song "Orion" from Metallica? Would "pagans" consider that a valid astronomical feeling? Or how about Jimmy Page of Zeppelin in one of his "Elizabethan" moods? Is that "paganism"? I suspect according to the "pagans" which rallied outside the white house that none of this is valid paganism.

What makes it even more amusing is that no European really is anything other than a pagan. The Christianity of Europe is an import--and an import which was rejected by its own originators (the Jews)! Paganism really means many things and is most pure today in music which is a true sounding of the blood--a true fingerprint of the soul apart from overlaying concepts born of language proper. Take U2. Their best album is the War album and the band in general is loved by Christians. But just listen to the War album. That is Christian? More like a fingerprint of the Celtic soul with its particular mysticism. Or how about crazy and wonderful Sinead O'Conner. Do you mean paganism like that? There are a thousand different paganisms and they are discoverable especially in art because paganism is religion closest to art and not religion of advanced thought or universalism such as we see in Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, etc.

Now with that stated, a chaplain for paganism? How can such a person exist? Do you mean a Siberian shaman? Of course not. "Pagans" of today mean something of a new-age, just another groupthink, predictable table-of-thought representative for a movement which was born of counterculture in the U.S. Now no one can be gay without being a homosexual and apparently no one can be a pagan without being associated with "pagans". What next? I cannot be a man without being associated with...But why give anyone ideas...

And no, I would not vote for a "pagan" for an office of any type. I would not even vote for a pagan in the true sense of the word pagan, which is someone with his own tribal God, particular music, ethnic group, etc. I would not do so for the simple reason that this is starkly divisive, a return to particularities and not the continued and necessary move toward universalism which we all should make. Of course the great religions such as Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, etc. are inadequate--and of course concepts such as State, nation, etc. leave many people cold--but we should be bold and keep moving forward in attempts to be universal,--and not return to...Well, not return to the past ways of conceiving and being in any way at all.

Most probably the best we will be able to achieve is something of a continuing scientific and technological world under which we will have artistic expressions which are the leftovers of past ways of viewing the world. Certainly this is what we have in the U.S. and it is a testimony to the power of democracy, science, etc. that the past becomes visible in really the only truly intractable, reactionary, bloodtype force--namely music. Religion in the U.S.--and of course "paganism"--occupies something of a middle ground which neither does justice to natural science or true paganism or the yearnings for a higher understanding of social order (all we mean by political science and virtually the whole of the history of China with its concentration on the polity rather than the natural world).

We quite simply need to go deeper and higher in all directions. I listen to music to get at the deep past of all peoples. I read heavily. I try to imagine future universal orders for the race. I have little faith in any of the great religions or this modern "paganism" with its white house charging adherents.

I think I might sit back now and imagine Nugent playing "Hibernation", Metallica playing the wonderful "Orion". Page playing "Dazed and Confused"...just to piss off "pagans" knowing this is not what they mean by paganism...

And I leave it to others to wonder what it would be like to live in a world in which we all have names such as these modern "pagans" have. Starhawk? Blueflame Witch? Nice to know vanity and ostentation is not confined to us lowly "non-pagans"....

Considering that I have voted for Christians, without being Christian, I see no reason why I wouldn't vote for somebody who identified him (or her) self as Pagan. It would be their stance on economics, social issues, and international affairs, that I would judge a candidate by, not what religion they claimed to belong to.

As for thinking the military should hire and provide Pagan chaplins--no way.
I think they should probably drop chaplains all together. We don't give each military unit a psychologist, or a music instructor. Let persons who lead religious orders be paid by those orders, not the US government. We can give them access to troops, like we embed news reporters, but I see no reason to give them US money.

There is also the question of what IS a Pagan. In general, it is a term used to lump any non monotheistic belief system together, even ones that have no similarity to each other. The "Pagan Idols" of the old testament are not Wicca, nor are they Navajo. It is a term for a type of belief but it isn't actually a specific religion. So, how would you pick such a person, since there are no Pagan churches, or theology schools to acredit one?

Contrary to popular belief (even by chaplains), their primary job is NOT to PREACH to their captive audiences- RATHER it is: (from Charter of the Armed Forces Chaplains Board) To Protect the First Amendment Rights of those appointed to their care; AND.... To support the spiritual needs of those members of the Armed Forces....

Military Pagans (the majority of whom are Wiccan) in totality currently outnumber Buddhists, and they are closing fast on both Jewish and Muslim numbers (if not past them already).

Too many of the current crop of Evangelical Christian chaplains want to convert the service member, not support them. And we need a Chaplain of a Pagan tradition, because: as Paganism encompasses many Paths, Deities, Traditions- there is room for the Pagan chaplain to support the Christian (at least the Pagan will acknowledge the possible existence of a deity named God/Jehovah/Yahweh) whereas the Abrahamic chaplain refutes the possiblility of ANY other God, despite the evidence in the Bible/Scriptures that other Deities and Powers exist. (Why else start out with: "You shall have no other gods before Me"; hey! if there ain't none, you don't have to disclaim them- right?)

And what do I know about it? I was only a Chaplains Assistant (serving ALL faiths (even None)), on and off the battlefield. Oh yeah- I was one of the Speakers at the rally too

A chaplain for pagans... and stamp collectors... and Republicans... Why should one hobby be provided with more infrastructure by the government than any other?

There is today no such thing as paganism. Paganism is simply agnosticism or atheism and it would be best if "pagans" acknowledged this fact. Then all of us who hate religion could really unite.

Sorry my shout. But milleniums one after one was needed to limit superstition enough.

NO, PLEASE. SUPERSTITION AGAIN NO. PLEASE! ANOTHER TIME FROM THE VERY BEGINNING! ITS A NEED TO KNOW DEEPLY PLATO AND ARISTOTELE TO HATE THEM!

From what I understand, Pagan movements are not only about reviving belief structures from the past, but also about making those belief structures agree with living in the present.

For example, the few Pagans I know don't perform ritual sacrifices or similar activities.

Many of these Pagans actually seem to have embraced beliefs closer to the Green Party and the Eco movement, rather than an outright Orthodox worldview, as held by those who identify themselves as Christian and use their faith to decide their opinions on political matters.

That being said - if there are more Pagans in the military than Muslims (and I have to honestly say that I have met and interacted with more Pagan military service members than Muslim service members), they should have a chaplain. Obviously, the chaplain would have to be of a moderate sect of Paganism, but the position should be there.

NO, PLEAS!E. SUPERSTITION AGAIN NO PLEASE! ANOTHER TIME FROM THE VERY BEGINNING! ITS A NEED TO REALLY KNOW PLATO AND ARISTOTELE TO HATE THEM!

Folks, everyone this is a country of RELIGIOUS FREEDOM, and I do quote "Religious Freedom". We've made such a mockery of everything in this country from Politics, to Religion, to how we raise our children to how we take care of our soldiers.
Wake up, we choose to be who we are because it identifies us as individuals this includes our religion.
To elect someone of a religion other than Christianity to most seems absorbed but truly it isn't. This is supposed to be the land of the free and the home of the brave are we all so stupid that we cannot see past our own little lives to let others practice their own beliefs.
I have been an open "PAGAN" now most of my life even when I was a kid, I see no wrong in allowing whomever wants to run for public office run no matter what their religion is.
Are we going to stop someone because they don't believe in the Almighty God; last I checked I was under the impression that CHURCH and STATE were run under separate venues apparently according to all of you "CHRISTIANS" it isn't.

This self pity and self centered concept is why most of the pagans you meet today found the freedom of religion and choose to believe in something different.

Sorry folks, wake up and smell the coffee "Christianity" isn't the only religion in the free world and I'm here to tell you I will continue believing what I believe in until the day I die.

It saddens me to think that we live in the land of opportunity yet not everybody living in this country gets equal opportunities. We all believe in the bill of rights. The first amendment states that everyone is entitled to freedom of religion. That includes paganism because it was declared to be a religion by the United States government. Since paganism is an official religion, I feel that there should be pagan chaplains in the armed forces to aid me and people like me currently serving in the military.

It saddens me to think that we live in the land of opportunity yet not everybody living in this country gets equal opportunities. We all believe in the bill of rights. The first amendment states that everyone is entitled to freedom of religion. That includes paganism because it was declared to be a religion by the United States government. Since paganism is an official religion, I feel that there should be pagan chaplains in the armed forces to aid me and people like me currently serving in the military.

Believe me. Empirism vs. religion is the present fight. Pagan superstition vs. philosophy was the previous one.

At a time of crisis or time of confusion, it doesn't HURT ANYONE to request spiritual guidance from someone of their own faith. I am PAGAN woman and PROUD not be blind to the ignorance of others in this world. Regardless of what ignorant folks believe of the many religions that classify under the term Pagan, those of us that appreciate nature should be able to speak to someone who will not belittle us for our beliefs (i.e. a minister, priest, rabbi, pastor, etc.). A soldier that is looking for help is going want to talk to someone that understands their problems and helps them find solutions within their faiths. No one talk to someone that expresses distain for choice in spirituality and wants them to change their beliefs. No Christian want to hear someone tell them that their bible is wrong, anymore than a Muslim wants to hear that their upbringing is corrupt. For those of you that are misguided, this is service for our soldiers, no one is FORCING YOU to take on a new religion. There are stories of Baptist soldiers being told by Catholic Priest in the military during WWII that their religion was corrupt that they needed to join the "Holy Catholic Church" so that could go to heaven. If you disagree with Paganism that is your choice, but no one should take away any soldier's right to seek spiritual guidance, especially during a time of war!!

Sorry. I have to disagree. I will talk about other pagan belief. Odin and the early germanic people. The paradise was only for those dying in war or fight. I will to talk about the Kali Goddess. She has to receive human sacrifices and blood. Etc, etc, etc. Please, If religion is tried to be surpassed by superstiction then I prefer religions.

At a time of crisis or time of confusion, it doesn't HURT ANYONE to request spiritual guidance from someone of their own faith. I am PAGAN woman and PROUD not be blind to the ignorance of others in this world. Regardless of what ignorant folks believe of the many religions that classify under the term Pagan, those of us that appreciate nature should be able to speak to someone who will not belittle us for our beliefs (i.e. a minister, priest, rabbi, pastor, etc.). A soldier that is looking for help is going want to talk to someone that understands their problems and helps them find solutions within their faiths. No one talk to someone that expresses distain for choice in spirituality and wants them to change their beliefs. No Christian want to hear someone tell them that their bible is wrong, anymore than a Muslim wants to hear that their upbringing is corrupt. For those of you that are misguided, this is service for our soldiers, no one is FORCING YOU to take on a new religion. There are stories of Baptist soldiers being told by Catholic Priest in the military during WWII that their religion was corrupt that they needed to join the "Holy Catholic Church" so that could go to heaven. If you disagree with Paganism that is your choice, but no one should take away any soldier's right to seek spiritual guidance, especially during a time of war!!

MARY writes:
Now that is what I would like to see: A scientist running for office. Someone who truly understands how to solve problems regardless of their religion."

Too bad that we live in the USA where a genius/scientist/humanitarian/known problem solver who admits he's an atheist hasn't a prayer of being elected to national office, whereas the biggest moron in the land has a good chance at being elected as long as he professes "Jeebuz iz Lord."

It saddens me to see so many people on here, primarily Atheists and Christians with so many misconceptions about Pagans and Wiccans.

Although Paganism is a blanket term to define numerous pre-Christian and New Age Movements, they do have things in common.

Salena Fox of Circle Sanctuary has written a Pledge to Pagan Spirituality, maybe it will help you further understand who we are.

I am a Pagan and I dedicate myself to channeling the Spiritual energy of my inner self to help and to heal others and myself.

I know that I am part of the Whole of nature. May I grow in understanding of the Unity of all Nature. May I always walk in balance.

May I always be mindful of the diversity of Nature as well as its Unity. May I always be tolerant of those whose race, appearance, culture and ways differ from my own.

May I use my psychic powers wisely and never use it for aggression or for malevolent purposes.

May I never use it to curtail the free will of others.

May I always remember that I create my own reality and that I have the power within me to create positivity in my life.

May I always take responsibility for my actions be they conscious or unconscious.

May I always act in honorable ways, being honest with myself and others, keeping my word whenever I have given it, fulfilling all responsibilities and commitments I have undertaken to the best of my abilities.

May I always remember that whatever is sent out returns magnified to the sender. The forces of Karma will move swiftly to remind me of my spiritual commitments when I have begun to falter from them. May I use this Karmic feedback to remain strong and committed to my Spiritual ideals in the face of adversity or negativity. May the force of my inner Spirit eliminate all malevolence directed my way and transform it into positive light. May my inner light shine so strongly that malevolence can not even enter my realm of existence.

May I continually grow in wisdom and understanding. May I see every problem that I face, as an opportunity to learn and grow and to develop spiritually.

May I act out of love for other beings on this planet -- to other human, plants, animals, mineral, elementals, spirits or other entities.

May I ever be mindful that the Goddess and God in all their forms dwell within me and that this divinity is reflected through my own Inner Self, my Pagan Spirit.

May I always channel love and light through my being. May my inner Spirit, rather than my Ego self, guide all my thoughts, feelings and actions.

So Mote It Be.

If their are pagans in the military then they like everyone else should have a chaplain.

I do believe that a goodly number of the gentlemen signing our country's Declaration of Independence and the Bill Of Rights etc. were well known as Deists, they believed in a Superior Being but not in organized religion.

I am a practicing Wiccan/Pagan. I am also a veteran. I remember having difficulty at the time I signed up because of the religion question - that was Vietnam era and there wasn't a wiccan or other box to mark.

As, to the question of voting for a pagan - yes I would vote for them. Most likely they would be more accountable for their actions. Karma and the law of 3 x 3 and all that.

I do believe that a goodly number of the gentlemen signing our country's Declaration of Independence and the Bill Of Rights etc. were well known as Deists, they believed in a Superior Being but not in organized religion.

I am a practicing Wiccan/Pagan. I am also a veteran. I remember having difficulty at the time I signed up because of the religion question - that was Vietnam era and there wasn't a wiccan or other box to mark.

As, to the question of voting for a pagan - yes I would vote for them. Most likely they would be more accountable for their actions. Karma and the law of 3 x 3 and all that.

Now that is what I would like to see: A scientist running for office. Someone who truly understands how to solve problems regardless of their religion.

And by the way, I know quite a few mathmaticians who believe in magic.... Wiccans?

Religion poisons everything, it doesn't matter which religion it is. Science, logic and reason promote more compassion these days than the war-promoting (Crusades, jihad, Palestine) religions ever have. Are you religious people comfortable with the idea that you can follow your own commandments without imposing them on others?

You know most faiths believe in poverty, and in trusting God to take care of you. But they are not all Christians. I guess they are Pagans who do not chase the golden calf.

Kacoo :
"I voted for a Satan worshipper but I did not know this fact about Bill Clinton until someone showed me the secret messages hidden in his biography My Life. It's like the Da Vinci Code in reverse, where a secret cult is protecting the natural bloodline of Satan. But you have to know how to read Clinton's biography to understand it all."

This is a joke right...?????.....

Wiccans are easy to identify, they're the ones whose spells don't work.

Vote for a pagan? Well, let's see: Jesus preached poverty (sell all you own, etc). So you just need to find a broke politician who really, really upsets 'The Establishment' and who detests hipocrites -- and you have now found a Christian. Yeah, there aren't any Christian politicians, if you use these criteria. Guess those guys running are all chasing The Golden Calf: which makes them perfect pagans! So vote for your favorite pagan (oh, yeah, forgot about Joe Lieberman... guess you could always vote Jewish, if religion is the criterion.)

Vote for a pagan? Well, let's see: Jesus preached poverty (sell all you own, etc). So you just need to find a broke politician who really, really upsets 'The Establishment' and who detests hipocrites -- and you have now found a Christian. Yeah, there aren't any Christian politicians, if you use these criteria. Guess those guys running are all chasing The Golden Calf: which makes them perfect pagans! So vote for your favorite pagan (oh, yeah, forgot about Joe Lieberman... guess you could always vote Jewish, if religion is the criterion.)

I'm not against right-wing Christians. I believe if God wanted them to be conservative, then they should be conservative. It is diversity that will finally teach you how to love.

I cannot help it if they think we are all going to hell. I firmly believe in a joke I once heard which revolved around the idea that there were great walls in Heaven separating those who believed they were the only ones who would get there.

Pagans includes everyone not right-wing Christians!

That is the view of these people. If you are with us you are against us.

Sorry:

www.religioustolerance.org

Check out the link although I think it should be more about acceptance than tolerance.

The Indian army has always had a representation of priests from all the religions that are practised in India, including Hinduism, Islam and Christianity to name the main ones. Now India is 82 % Hindu, but there never has been a national debate on whether to allow or disallow a priest just because he/ she belongs to a minority community. I wonder why the so called "progressive" US is unable to make such a simple decision without making such a big fuss of it!

The Indian army has always had a representation of priests from all the religions that are practised in India, including Hinduism, Islam and Christianity to name the main ones. Now India is 82 % Hindu, but there never has been a national debate on whether to allow or disallow a priest just because he/ she belongs to a minority community. I wonder why the so called "progressive" US is unable to make such a simple decision without making such a big fuss of it!

The Indian army has always had a representation of priests from all the religions that are practised in India, including Hinduism, Islam and Christianity to name the main ones. Now India is 82 % Hindu, but there never has been a national debate on whether to allow or disallow a priest just because he/ she belongs to a minority community. I wonder why the so called "progressive" US is unable to make such a simple decision without making such a big fuss of it!

The Indian army has always had a representation of priests from all the religions that are practised in India, including Hinduism, Islam and Christianity to name the main ones. Not that India is 82 % Hindu, but there never has been a national debate on whether to allow or disallow a priest just because it is a minority community. I wonder why the so called "progressive" US is unable to make such a simple decision without making such a big fuss of it!

Well I cannot vote for any Christians that I know of for they beleive in proselytizing. Talk about self-absorbed. But I don't think that applies to all Christians. Try to have an open mind about Pagans.

As a Trad person myself, I certainly would not vote for any Pagan public figure I can think of for public office. The issue of fitness has already been brought up and the "big name oagans" are generally feckless, self-absorbed, attention seekers.

Were there Pagani historically>? There most certainly were. There were also Mystery Traditions that flourished, rather contrarity to the state-sponsored patheons, and it was these that, in fact, gave rise to what is now known as "Christianity" (which of course bears no resemblance to the so-called "church of Jerusalem")

As for the Chaplaincy, Wicca and Neo-Pagansim are outlined in the Chaplain's Handbook. There are large numbers of people seeking such support, the question is one of credential and competency and there are few candidates, and fewer credentials that have any potential for filling the bill as it is needed.

FFF,
Trystn

Peacetroll wrote...

"Paganism is an idiotic, backward, artificial and absolutely STUPID religion that has no base in truth.

There is but one God.

Wake up and see the light....Jesus Christ is the only truth. The only way to salvation for you and your house.

Read and learn of Christ Jesus; turn away from fairy tales and ignorance."

************

Yep... you betcha... EVERYBODY knows that the TRUTH lies in the belief that a cosmic Jewish zombie, who is his own father, can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him that you accept him as your master so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

Get a grip.

I posted this in the comments to Chuck Colson's obnoxious post:

Here's James Madison (famously known as the "Father of the American Constitution")on the issue of chaplains in the Congress:

"The establishment of the chaplainship to Congs is a palpable violation of equal rights, as well as of Constitutional principles: The tenets of the chaplains elected by the majority shut the door of worship agst the members whose creeds & consciences forbid a participation in that of the majority. To say nothing of other sects, this is the case with that of Roman Catholics & Quakers who have always had members in one or both of the Legislative branches. Could a Catholic clergyman ever hope to be appointed a Chaplain!

TO SAY THAT HIS RELIGIOUS PRINCIPLES ARE OBNOXIOUS OR THAT HIS SECT IS SMALL, IS TO LIFT THE VEIL AT ONCE AND EXHIBIT IN ITS NAKED DEFORMITY THE DOCTRINE THAT RELIGIOUS TRUTH IS TO BE TESTED BY NUMBERS OR THAT THE MAJOR SECTS HAVE A RIGHT TO GOVERN THE MINOR." (emphasis added by me)

-----

It has to be all or nothing; either no chaplains or chaplains for everyone. I'm generally opposed to government support for religious activities, but in the case of people who are being asked to risk their lives I think their fellow citizens owe them the courtesy of respecting their beliefs and accommodating their religious requirements. They've been asked to give up everything else...

A Hermit

One can not cater to the minorities in such a fashion and still be productive.

Utilitarianism is the only way.

The best good for the most people.

Paganism is an idiotic, backward, artificial and absolutely STUPID religion that has no base in truth.

There is but one God.

Wake up and see the light....Jesus Christ is the only truth. The only way to salvation for you and your house.

Read and learn of Christ Jesus; turn away from fairy tales and ignorance.

I think it is an entirely legitimate question to be asking. If we aren't able to pass muster on religious tolerance how are we ever going to be able to preach it to radical mullahs preaching murder fatwahs. Sad, but true.

When people lose faith in their religion, what is the consequence? Is it their own fault? Why do many systematically overreact to what is a very personal decision?

I feel terrible that our country is so belligerently intolerant to independent views and independent expressions of life's innate value. We've grown so concerned about dollar signs that people in genuinely difficult situations slip through the cracks.

The same philosophy that crucified Christ is running the terrorists and the same philosophy is genuinely ignoring the demand for audits -- starting with the wealthiest Americans and working its way down.

I don't recall that Xena, Warrior Princess needed more than the love of a good woman to keep her on her righteous course ;-)

I want the military to enlist fighters to shoot people to death who attack my country.

I want the military to take full responsibility for the psychological consequences that affect those fighters who take must another's life for this moral purpose.

I want the military to honor those who die while engaged in this moral purpose.

I want the military to be honest about how they died with their families and with the citizens who enlisted them to fight in their place.

That is all I want the military to do.

--FIUS

What does question #2 actually have to do with question #1?

To answer these in reverse order:

2) "Would you vote for a Pagan for public office?"
IMO: to vote specifically on the basis of faith is shallow. In the grand and honorable tradition of separation of Church and State, a person's stand on the issues they will be addressing in office is what will truly earn my vote.

All types of faiths can contain a range from tolerant upstanding people to narrowminded extremists - a person's type of (and depth of) faith alone is no guarantee of ability or lack thereof to inclusively and fairly represent a multi-culture of constituents.

1) "They want the military to add a Pagan chaplain. Should they get one?"
Of course. All or nothing. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

There's no such thing as a "second-class citizen" in the United States, and arguing for "second class religious paths" is specious.

I'm really pleasantly surprised by this question. And by a lot of people's answers. It really heartens me to see that progress is being made all the time. It gives me hope for the future, where people can admit to being Pagan without worry.

Should Pagan soldiers be allowed to have chaplains? Yes. I have hope that this country means what it stands for. All soldiers deserve to have a representative of their faith nearby. It's the LEAST we can do for the soldiers who fight and die everyday for what they feel is right, whether they are Pagan or not.

Would I vote for a Pagan? Yes. I would, but not because of the fact that they may be Pagan. I would if their positions on the issues were ones I agreed with and could get behind. What matters to me is less their religious views but what they presume to do once in office.

As a Pagan minister, I can say that I know many many military Pagans. They are as patriotic as any christian.They have fought and died for this country but only recently did the military consent to add the pentacle to the graves of these brave servicepeople. There are sections of the Chaplin's hand book that speak of Satanist as well as Wiccan practices.

As for a pagan in public office, of course! There is a division between church and state in America, so what a candidate's personal religion is should be as personal as their sexual preferences. If they run as a Pagan platform then that is as much a violation of the rules as a christian platform is.

Victoria,

You noted: "people more often than not die alone". Please provide statistics on this.

Firstly, I don't understand what these two questions have to do with one another. That being sad, I'll answer both in their own right.

#1. Yes, the military should have at least a small representation of the Pagan and/or Wiccan faith in the military chaplain-hood. As others have pointed out, it's only fair.
With that being said, I hope any chaplain of the U.S. military would be able to supply at least some religious comfort to anyone, no matter what his or her personal faith may be. All Needs should be honoured. After all, we all came from the same Force.
Someone mentioned M*A*S*H. Do you remember when Father Mulcahy, a Catholic priest, once performed the last rites in Hebrew for a dying Jewish soldier? I hope that all of our soldiers get that same kind of consideration.

#2. Would I vote for a pagan in public office? Yes, as much as Bostonians would vote a Catholic into the Presidency in 1960. Like others have said, it's not the person's personal spirituality or religion that matters. It's if they aren't hypocritical to that faith's creedo and they truly want to help the world around them, in the most selfless fashion.

not you butterfly friend, on some of the pagan panelists ive noticed some curious attitudes-
also on muslim panelists there are some choruses of strangely biased opinions, but were all human and subject to those things.

most of my circle of friends for many years were pagans of varying hues, and we were a singularly pacific group- however several were alarmed or repelled by my reversion to islam-

just like any grouping of humans- there will be tolerant and intolerant-

i never did say if id vote for a pagan-

it seems more likely id have a bent toward pagans as in general they dont trumpet their religious views- which is a turnoff in any political discussion.

(when barak obama started campaigning a few years ago in chicago- where i lived- after the 2004 elections- he was courting the muslims heavily, relying on his muslim sounding name and crowing about his muslim grandfather who was such an influence on him- then he suddenly disassociated himself- i finally gave up hope on him when his wife was in a caravan in the bud milliken parade (an african american event in the south side of chicago) wearing torn jeans, a t-shirt half tucked in, and her hair a real ghetto mess- i didnt mind the chameleon-like change of image- but when she shouted to the crowd that she had to page her 'babydaddy' i threw up a little in my mouth.

i digress as always-

people more often than not die alone- so i dont know how omnipresent a pagan or any other chaplain could be to comfort the dying-

generally people are pretty preoccupied when dying, i think offering comfort is something we tell ourselves to make our own selves feel better-
but if people feel a need to be recognized and validated- (and they should) i imagine theyd be doing nothing but a benficial service to those who serve-

and serving the servants is what its all about.

peace

I find religion, faith, and experiences of purported divine inspiration to be a deeply personal matter. I am generally uneasy when religion becomes a matter of political discourse.

As for the 'dead gods' one poster referred to, are not all our gods or Gods alive within our hearts?

As for those who profess the dominion of one religion over another in this country, do not forget that many of our forefathers were Deists, they believed in an unsympathetic God who abandoned us to our own devices.

How refreshing that nonetheless they possessed the wisdom to craft a document allowing for religion to prosper within the hearts of those who believe their god or God is with them.

Why are Americans so hung up on religion? I am always amused when looking at senatorial and congressional bios - there is always a section on religion - surely the average American (the overwhelming majority of whom are good, thinking people) would prefer to see competent and dispassionate decision-making based on the realities of the day and the future rather than adhering to some God-based command structure.

The worldview seems to be that US domestic and foreign policy has been hijacked by the Moral Pygmies of Christianity intent on a vindictive approach toward those whose values do not correspond to their own and who display, with arrogant certainty, that they are the only ones who have all the answers.

I'd be just as inclined to vote for a Pagan as a Christian (or a Jew, or a Muslim, or an atheist), as long as the person made decisions based on reason (as opposed to blind faith in a "God" that may not be mine) and they exhibited a highly developed moral sensibility. It's been my observation that "belief" in a particular faith does not necessarily equate to superior leadership or moral behavior. Nor does the absence of "belief" in a particular faith mean a person lacks either of this attributes. Given the current leadership's tendency toward a literal interpretation of +2,000 year-old stories, I would just as soon see our country return to the Humanist precepts of the Founding Fathers (men of the Englightenment and the Age of Reason), in which ideas rose and fell on their merits rather than on their consistency with the Bible (or any other piece of ancient literature).

Quandery is what happens when religion and government conflict. Remove all religion from state matters. For what its worth, the right person should be chosen for the job based on their credentials and experience and not based on their faith which should be a personal matter.

Perry:

Please don't take anything I may address in your direction as anything other than spirited debate. I certainly don't intend to come across as condescending. My last post used your quote to address an argument being posted by more than just you- it was just easier to cut and paste one excerpt, and yours was the one I picked. Having said that, your last post to me looks like it's starting to boil down to semantics, when you say:

**You've selected my earlier post for critique, ostensibly because of an error I made that you apparently found egregious. Well, I shall return the favor.

Anyone remotely educated on the subject of the commandments presented by God via Moses knows that the proper reading of the relevant item is more akin to "thou shall not murder"--certainly an important distinction.**

Well then, as you pointed out, if not many of us know the various tenants of the various p(P)agan sects, then why even speculate about the potency of a perspective Pagan (which was my original point)- why not read into their creed that "harm no one" means more than it appears at face value, just as "Thou Shalt not Kill" *really* means "don't murder".

By that, I mean, why even post:
* *For instance, if it's true, as mentioned herein, that Pagans have as an important principle "harm no one", how can that be squared with political decisions regarding war, defense, and so forth? I doubt the country would really benefit from having a president, for instance, unwilling ever to utilize military force for national security.**

Why post that unless you want me to read into that response enough qualifying innuendoes as to make your remark some sort of moving target, whose subtle meaning can change however it may be challenged.

The whole point of my first post was to question why people where speculating about something of which they had so little knowledge or exposure- so I didn't quite understand why you posted back to me:

**Secondly, in using the example I did, I was taking up an item already mentioned--and did so in the context of clearly pointing out that the definition(s) of P(p)aganism are unclear at best, leaving those unfamiliar with the tenets ostensibly held--and especially those held in common by the various "denominations" of Paganism--confused as to what is being talked of at any given point.

Therefore, might I ask that you subject yourself to the tutors you seek for "On Reason", and perhaps brush up oh-so-slightly on the usage of the mother tongue?**

Anyway, like I commented earlier, this is merely a dialogue- my intent was not to disparage you or your intellect.

All military chaplains are theoretically required to minister to the spiritual needs of all troops. Many Christian chaplains have refused to do so in favor of evangelizing for specific dogma in which they've been trained, which has become a problem even for mainstream Christians in the military, let alone Pagans.

But in fact, in the manual provided to US Army chaplains, Wicca is recognized as a bona fide religion which chaplains are required to honor in their course of fulfilling their duties. (Could a chaplain refusing to support a Pagan soldier's desire to die with "The Charge of the Goddess" on her or his lips be subject to disciplinary action? Interesting idea. But I digress.) There's even a pretty good précis of Wicca in the Army chaplain's manual, with a little something about Wicca being only one of many Pagan belief systems, if I recall correctly.

It would be nice if all Pagan military men and women had a Pagan chaplain to chat with, or comfort them when them they die, or whatever else might be needed. It would be nice if all the other less-than-dominant religions were also so represented. Then we could all hum the theme from M*A*S*H together and pretend our government truly reflects a pluralistic citizenry. Until then, organizations such as the Chesapeake Pagan Community, which organized yesterday's Pagan Rights Rally, will have to keep tapping the microphone to be sure people are listening.

Would I vote for a Pagan? Of course -- assuming s/he brought essential qualifications to the candidates' debate. Leaders valid plans for addressing our environmental challenges would be that much more credible to me if they were Pagan. It's hard to find someone more committed to the welfare of Earth than someone who believes it's divine, after all, nor more devoted to the welfare of all living things -- including people -- than someone who believes we're all part of that same divinity -- bearing responsibilities commensurate with the implied prestige.

Those who are still confused about what Paganism is and isn't after all these years might want to visit http://www.witchvox.com/_x.html?c=basics . It won't bite. You'll find sections of this large site devoted to military Pagans, by the way, and many other relevant topics.

I think there are two questions:
1) would I vote for a Pagan running for office.
Answer: I vote according to what I see as competence and an ethical world-view. I don't vote religion.
2) should Pagans in the Armed Services be allowed chaplains in their own faith.
Answer: To do anything else would be to create an official hypocrisy. Yes, there should be chaplains to minister to that faith.

There are numerous kinds of Pagans and Witches. I don't have a clue how many. The modern sort usually hark back to ancient pre-Christian tribal religions but there are numerous individuals and groups who feel their spirituality is keyed to the land they live in and who seek to honor and care for the Earth.

We're in the desperate situation we now face because the dominant religions and cultural leaders claimed they knew everything and that the natural world was just this big ever-renewing candy-bag from which we humans could just keep on shoveling out the goodies forever.

They were wrong. Perhaps we should all think about learning to see Nature as sacred. It couldn't hurt and might help.

It doesn't matter if their is just one Wiccan Soldier serving our country in the military. The military is responsible for his or her well being just like the rest of them. The military is a department of the United States of America and falls under the same constitution rights as any American. The constitution doesn't respect any one religion over another. As for political positions, that shouldn't even be a question, but unfortunately it is, and I would have no problem voting for a Wiccan over a Christian if I had that choice. If their are issues serving then there are plenty of other positions in the service, not just infantry or gunner positions. There is admin, doctors, corpmen or medics these are still jobs just like any other job. You either have the education to do them or you don't.

I voted for a Satan worshipper but I did not know this fact about Bill Clinton until someone showed me the secret messages hidden in his biography My Life. It's like the Da Vinci Code in reverse, where a secret cult is protecting the natural bloodline of Satan. But you have to know how to read Clinton's biography to understand it all.

Christianity was once considered a cult. Many of its early adherents were executed for being members of this strange, new religion. I could care less whether Christians think other religions are legitimate. The leading Christians of today are hardly qualified to judge others.

The lack of understanding and support for this nature based faith just shows that America has a long way to go, and the problem isn't those religions, it's the Christian faith. Christianity has brainwashed it's followers to the point they will do anything it says, even kill, the bible will justify their actions of killing. Yet the bible also says not to kill, though that is Jewish law, Christian's follow. I've even heard Christian's call Buddhism "devil worshipers." The devil is the Christian God of their underworld, and has nothing to do with the basic teachings of Buddhism. Christian's are blinded by ignorance, and I know because I was once a converted Christian in my teens, I seen the bigotry and the hate from that faith. Open your eyes, stop blinding yourselves!

I vote based on qualification for office and positions. I would also probably say that I vote for a person to some extent based on their values, but not at all in the way that a "Christian" would say that. I want to know what you believe your purpose in life to be, why you wish to run for office (and how that fits into your larger purpose), how you interact with other people and the world around you, etc.

Ultimately, the only test that rises above all others is this: Are you trying to leave the world a better place than you found it, and have you been generally successful in that effort to this point? If you aren't in some way improving the lives of people around you and interactive with the world in a constructive manner, I believe you should automatically be disqualified for public office.

The lack of understanding and support for this nature based faith just shows that America has a long way to go, and the problem isn't those religions, it's the Christian faith. Christianity has brainwashed it's followers to the point they will do anything it says, even kill, the bible will justify their actions of killing. Yet the bible also say's not to kill, though that is Jewish law, Christian's follow. I've even heard Christian's call Buddhism "devil worshipers." The devil is the Christian God of their underworld, and has nothing to do with the basic teachings of Buddhism. Christian's are blinded by ignorance, and I know because I was once a converted Christian in my teens, I seen the bigotry and hate from that faith. Open your eyes, stop blinding yourselves!

Of course. Pagans as well as Buddhists, Hindus, Secular Humanists, Free-thinkers, Atheists, Agnostics, etc. should all be represented in the military chaplaincy. Either that or add one more notch to the list of hypocrisies of the ‘American Way of Life’…

The lack of understanding and support for this nature based faith just shows that America has a long way to go, and the problem isn't those religions, it's the Christian faith. Christianity has brainwashed it's followers to the point they will do anything it say's, even kill, the bible will justify their actions of killing. I've even heard Christian's call Buddhism "devil worshippers." The devil is the Christian God of their underworld, and has nothing to do with the basic teachings of Buddhism. Christian's are blinded by ignorance, and I know because I was once a converted Christian in my teens, I seen the bigotry and hate from that faith. Open your eyes, stop blinding yourselves!

The lack of understanding and support for this nature based faith just shows that America has a long way to go, and the problem isn't those religions, it's the Christian faith. Christianity has brainwashed it's followers to the point they will do anything it say's, even kill, the bible will justify their actions of killing. I've even heard Christian's call Buddhism "devil worshippers." The devil is the Christian God of their underworld, and has nothing to do with the basic teachings of Buddhism. Christian's are blinded by ignorance, and I know because I was once a converted Christian in my teens, I seen the bigotry and hate from that faith. Open your eyes, stop blinding yourselves!

Of course. Pagans as well as Buddhists, Hindus, Secular Humanists, Free-thinkers, Atheists, Agnostics, etc. should all be represented in the military chaplaincy. Either that or add one more notch to the list of hypocrisies of the ‘American Way of Life’…

Why is what is good for Wiccans is good for all Pagans? Personally I like the religion for Unitarian Universalists they seem to be the most politically ballanced.

I feel that if one can point to a recognized creed, supported by adherents then that I would constitute as a religion. Even if one points to a religion as I defined it, I don't believe the Pentagon has to admit Chaplains to satisfy the religion's existence. I believe that test is that there exists a significant and proportional population desiring a particular sect of Chaplaincy. The governments assets are not infinite and as such a government has to be able to limit the individual cry for "I want one", as well as, balance the need of some against that of the whole. Additionally, for the Department of Defense there are overarching rules designed to allow a Chaplin of a Faith to administer to multi-denominational congregations. Every Faith is not represented within every activity, thus an assigned Chaplin administers to many Faiths as a routine part of ones duties. Thus, I add that any recognized creed must be compatible with this last point.

Would I vote for a Pagan? Well, ones religion has never been a factor in my voting decision. As many others have said better then I can, the deciding factors are the candidate’s views on the issues and whether I trust them.

pilgrimage to the tempel of constitution.
pilgrims carry their collective religion or ideology or style on their head and shoulder and march to the tempel .to get the blessing and official approval of lord magna charta who died for the sin of the citizen long time ago.and he will continue dieing as long as the dish of the tax collector is rolling around the country bringing all kind of goody???.be all you can be, lord magna died for your sin! and if you die magna will be with you .ameen
in a society where people put their trust in god??? ,the constitution becam another salon du hair care!!!

It amazes me that there are chaplains in the military at all: the Jesus I read about in the New Testament would never join the military as a soldier, and I would venture he would have not joined as a chaplain either, since it implicity accepts war as the answer.

Personally, I think we all ought to give war a chance...but why are Christians supporting any war with their blood & toil - is that what Jesus would have them do?

That said, this should be decided by the soldiers - it's their community and their needs.

But Paganism should not be excluded on the basis that it is not Judeo-Christrian in origin....

I seem to remember that around 2-3 yrs ago, The Washington Post did a story on Wiccan chaplains in the Army. Being a Pagan myself, and , at the time, employed by the military, this was of some interest to me. I have known many members of our armed forces who are Pagan of some sort. Being Pagan, no more than being Christian, has only to do with one's personal interpretation of the religious doctrine. Please note the links from Hermit; I highly recommend them.

As at least one other commenter has pointed out... many of the numbers provided will probably be very low estimates.

My husband is active-duty USMC and is listed as NO PREF. Although he is probably most closely self-identifies as "pagan" he did not want to complicate matters in the event of his death. Rather than having to explain his religious beliefs to his family and deal with the accompanying prejudice, he preferred to let them choose the services they considered appropriate.

Those are only familial pressures, I'm not sure how things like promotion could be affected. But there are certainly enough reasons for service members to under report their true religious preferences - and I doubt it just affects pagans' reporting.

I understand the chaplains to represent most faiths, out of necessity if nothing else. I would hope that they would at least have some sensitivity for other religions - whether their own personal belief system is pagan, Hindu, Christian, or anything else.

i would vote 4 a pagen i am 1(athiest) i dont know how people got away with acting like the belif in voodoo spirits haunting the sky makes u nice and good,it doesnt.it tends 2 do the opposite god is the biggest excuse 4 all abuse and hatred in the world(people feeling like gods on thier side)and i think the world would be a utopia without religion.

i would vote 4 a pagen i am 1(athiest) i dont know how people got away with acting like the belif in voodoo spirits haunting the sky makes u nice and good,it doesnt.it tends 2 do the opposite god is the biggest excuse 4 all abuse and hatred in the world(people feeling like gods on thier side)and i think the world would be a utopia without religion.

i would vote 4 a pagen i am 1(athiest) i dont know how people got away with acting like the belif in voodoo spirits haunting the sky makes u nice and good,it doesnt.it tends 2 do the opposite god is the biggest excuse 4 all abuse and hatred in the world(people feeling like gods on thier side)and i think the world would be a utopia without religion.

Victoria:
**lep- maybe you thought you made 2 separate points, you may have MEANT one on one, but you didnt actually say it.**

Sorry about that. Thamks for pointing it out to me. I'll endeavor to be more clear in the future.

**you "bet" that many joined because they believed a lie, but that lie was that saddaam had wmd's, not that the united states was under attack.**

Again, I see that I was not clear in what I said. You're right - the lie was that Saddam had WMD's. There was also the implication that he had indicated intent to unleash them on the US - another lie, but one that many beleived, especially as it came in the same breath as the first.

**anyway, most of the pagans ive known, and i number a great number amongst my friends all over america- are of a more pacifist bent.**

It's one of the many reasons that I could not serve i the military - I cannot kill another human being on command, no matter what the reason.

**it becomes more apparent when old fears of the 'other' (i.e. muslims) rise to the surface in the militaristic attitude im experiencing here.

it seems childhood training trumps the new found paganism of many.**

I think you overestimate the number of xenophobic Pagans. And I haven't noticed any of the Pagans here (if "here" indicates the WaPo message boards) being particularly militaristic in their attitudes. Just the opposite, in fact. I'm willing to bet the rent that Pagan soldiers do not feel that they are engaged in a war on Islam.

Scott--

You've selected my earlier post for critique, ostensibly because of an error I made that you apparently found egregious. Well, I shall return the favor.

Anyone remotely educated on the subject of the commandments presented by God via Moses knows that the proper reading of the relevant item is more akin to "thou shall not murder"--certainly an important distinction.

Secondly, in using the example I did, I was taking up an item already mentioned--and did so in the context of clearly pointing out that the definition(s) of P(p)aganism are unclear at best, leaving those unfamiliar with the tenets ostensibly held--and especially those held in common by the various "denominations" of Paganism--confused as to what is being talked of at any given point.

Therefore, might I ask that you subject yourself to the tutors you seek for "On Reason", and perhaps brush up oh-so-slightly on the usage of the mother tongue?

I'll freely admit that I know little about Paganism beyond some banal generalities that seem to fit most varieties; indeed, that was part of the point. I'm by most any standards a highly educated person; if I don't know just what is meant by Paganism--and have Pagan acquaintances that seem to differ on their own definitions--then I'll also be happy to wager that there are immense numbers of people who understand as little or less.

I'm sorry that the example used was inappropriate--but since so much has been made, in various contexts, of the Pagan precept of "harm no one"--including in conversations I've had with one of my Pagan friends (who largely on that basis says she would have to be a C.O. regardless of the cause)--I thought it might be useful and appropriate. I apologize for any confusion or misunderstanding that ensued.

Victoria,

I guess you have "lumped" the seven UK Muslim doctors into the category of pagans? The number of sects in Islam makes it more polytheistic than "allah-like" and explains a lot about the hatred of Sunnis for Shiites.

And you still cannot come to grips with the founder of all these sects, i.e. Mohammed, an illiterate, hallucinating Arab, who had embellishing/hallucinating scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

Maybe you can start another sect called "Victoriaism" aka "like an ostrich"?????

Pagan = worshipers of any religion that is neither Christian, Jewish, nor Muslim.

Using this definition, this discussion is the most grotesque generalization of faith or ways of viewing others relationship with the metaphysical.

Stepping back it becomes clear; if a person or groups metaphysical beliefs or practices do not harm others, then those beliefs/practices are to be respected by law.

If you cannot make it happen for all, then don't do it for any....because then it becomes unequal treatment.

Hmmm... I wonder if the Presidents office on Faith Based Inititiatives is funding any "Pagan" groups.....

If the requirements for there being a chaplain who is any religion are met, then yes, without question, we have no right to discriminate. They should also be allowed to put the pentacle on the military grave marker as so many others are allowed to do. Yes, I would vote for a pagan candidate if they met my policy requirements. I vote for Christians all the time, and I'm not a Christian.

Pagans already have their "holy day":

Halloween has its roots in a pagan ritual of the Celts in the 5th century B.C.

So why not their own chaplin???

Takes a cultist to know one-- although in this case I don't think that Colsen is really much in the grip of his big cult except to the extent he can use it to further his political and financial ends. In fact I would have to assume the only reason that this guy–a known criminal and an obvious hypocrite –is being featured in the website of the Washington Post at all is because he demostrates so well the main uses of religion; which are to control people for political reasons and to extort money from them.

Perhaps another reason to grant him a podium here is that he may be accurately representing the opinions based in ignorance and fear that, in others, has served him so well in his career as they have served his cronies and masters.

The bedrock idea that someone needs to religious, let alone specifically christian, to be moral is so patently stupid that there is no need to answer it to anyone who has the slightest familiarity with human history.

Absolutely. Ensuring that the military supports that one Pagan soldier's right to have faith in their life, to the exact same extent that the military abets its Christian soldiers etc., ensures that the cancer of oppression through first amendment erosion is never allowed to take root in the military, and elsewhere by example. Protecting a single pagan in turn preserves the civil liberties of larger groups.

When I went through Basic Training in 2001, they had a Wiccan service. So, this whole argument is kind of moot.

When I went through Basic Training in 2001, they had a Wiccan service. So, this whole argument is kind of moot.

A chaplain is supposed to be able to minister to anyone of any faith. If there is a pagan minister who can do this job, what is the problem? It is the ability to do the job, not the belief that qualifies a person for the job of chaplain.

As for voting for a pagan, the comments made by Mr. Colson are atypical of the religious right. The comment about "human sacrifice" has me still laughing. If there were such a thing, the prisons should be full of such cases as well as the newspapers. Rather, this is the type of misinformation that has been repeated for decades by the religious right, to frighten little children and Christians into the churches to keep their coffers full.

I suggest that the qualification for public office is the same as the rules for the census; we do not disclose information that has no bearing on the facts. Religion is not permitted on the census forms, nor should it be asked of a potential candidate for public office. It matters not what religion the candidate is, rather we should be focusing on the best person for the job.

However, the religious right will not allow us to forget who "thinks" they run this country at the moment.

Boudica
Wiccan/witch
yes, for those who don’t understand, I’m a pagan

In a previous post, I said that there were approximately 1500 Pagans in the military. That's incorrect. The Military Pagan Network states on their website that there are around 4,300 people declaring some sort of Pagan (Wiccan, Asatru, Druid, etc.) in the Armed Forces. The 1500 number is just for the U.S. Army.

Yes, there are many Pagans who are pacifists, just as there are many Christians who are pacifists (UUs, Quakers, Amish, etc.) However, many of the Old Gods were warriors, including (ahem) Athena. People of old had to take up arms to defend their homeland. Asatru, which is Norse Reconstruction (without all of that nasty racist crap that Hitler spewed) is especially geared towards the warrior.

Of course they should get a Pagan Chaplain!

If people that believe in angels, giants, demons and boats that can hold two of every animal in the world get to have a representative voice in the military...so should the Pagans!

Of course they should get a Pagan Chaplain!

If people that believe in angels, giants, demons and boats that can hold two of every animal in the world get to have a representative voice in the military...so should the Pagans!

Of course they should get a Pagan Chaplain!

If people that believe in angels, giants, demons and boats that can hold two of every animal in the world get to have a representative voice in the military...so should the Pagans!

lep- maybe you thought you made 2 separate points, you may have MEANT one on one, but you didnt actually say it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Harm none" is an admonition to not act maliciously. It is a reminder that the harm you do to others, you do also to yourself. It is a reminder to think carefully about the possible repercussions and consequences of what you are about to do before you act. "Harm none" does not mean that you cannot defend yourself or others against a personal attack, and it does not mean that you cannot serve in the military."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

you "bet" that many joined because they believed a lie, but that lie was that saddaam had wmd's, not that the united states was under attack.

anyway, most of the pagans ive known, and i number a great number amongst my friends all over america- are of a more pacifist bent.

but its interesting- ive met very few pagans who were raised that way- most that ive met rejected and reacted against traditional christian-jewish upbringings.

it becomes more apparent when old fears of the 'other' (i.e. muslims) rise to the surface in the militaristic attitude im experiencing here.

it seems childhood training trumps the new found paganism of many.

which is funny, because you would think that since pagans have been prejudiced against, their inclination would be sympathetic for others whoare being persecuted for their religion.

but it doesnt really seem to be the case.
interesting

I believe our founding fathers determined all people are equal, not withstanding race, religious beliefs, origin, etc.

How does this attitude towards Wiccan practice separate itself from bias and racism by Christians on others?

Christians deciding if another groups deserves equal merit under the law is biased in nature.

Christians should go to church and tell those they practice with how to practice Christianity correctly.

However, Christians should not engage other religions and tell other religions how to practice correctly, until Christians have discovered how to practice correctly for themselves first; including catholic priests, and pedaphiles as an example.

I don't want to belabor the point, because it's more or less been pointed out- also, I think we're making far too much of it:

Perry Clark said:
**As for the notion that public performance and private beliefs can or should be separate, I can only say that if one isn't willing to act as if one believes, then what use are the beliefs? For instance, if it's true, as mentioned herein, that Pagans have as an important principle "harm no one", how can that be squared with political decisions regarding war, defense, and so forth? I doubt the country would really benefit from having a president, for instance, unwilling ever to utilize military force for national security.**

This "Do no Harm" things that has been ascribed to Pagan belief- It sound remarkably similar to "Thou Shalt not Kill". So to say that Pagans are somehow impotent defenders of the country based off of this one creed, one that many here might be reading about Pagans for the first time, is a bit hasty. Why don't people just say "gee, I don't know how to answer that intriguing question- I really know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about Paganism outside of the whole boggieman explanation I was given AS A KID."

I agree with Duckphup, as I think he posted on the "Heaven/Hell" page- we need a forum called "On Reason".

As a Pagan, I can say I need no spiritual guidance. In fact I can't stand having someone try to convinse of anything to do with how to live my life.

If there are Pagans in the military, I'm sure the numbers are not enough to support a leader. As for voting for a Pagan, absolutely.

Our secular government should provide adequate access to the religious or spiritual requirements of all members of our armed forces, including the adherents of organized faiths (such as Pagans) along with those who have religious or spiritual beliefs or practices not associated with identifiable faiths. I don't think this proposed "adequate access" principle requires the government to employ chaplains. But if chaplains are employed for some, shouldn't the government treat all servicemen equally and hire chaplains for everyone?

Stan said:
"If there are enough Pagans... "

How many is 'enough'? one, a dozen, a hundred?

If the military can find Pagan chaplains, let them serve - in proportion to the number of Pagans in the military (it's reasonable to guess that fewer than 1 in 20 chaplains would be Pagans in that scenario). Let them practice their faith freely - and, most importantly, let chaplains of all other faiths be free from censorship of their beliefs.

If the military can find Pagan chaplains, let them serve - in proportion to the number of Pagans in the military (it's reasonable to guess that fewer than 1 in 20 chaplains would be Pagans in that scenario). Let them practice their faith freely - and, most importantly, let chaplains of all other faiths be free from censorship of their beliefs.

Victoria,

I fear you may have mistakenly lumped what I meant to be two separate points into one.

When I said that a Pagan may defend him or herself from personal attack without violating the "harm none" directive, I meant a one-on-one situation. For example, if someone attempts to rape me, the "harm none" directive does not forbid my defending myself, even if it causes injury to my attacker.

I am well aware that we were not attacked by Iraq. I was not defending the invasion of Iraq as "defending oneself against an attack." And I certainly do not subscribe to the notion that all Muslims are terrorists, or that all Muslim soldiers are out to destroy America. That is as ridiculous as believing that all Christians picket funerals while screaming "God hates fags!"

It is my belief that most people who enlist in the military do so out of a sense of duty to defend their country if the need arises, while at the same time fervently hoping that the need does not arise during their stint. Some wait to enlist until the need does arise, as seen by the massive increase in enlistment immediately after the bombing of Pearl Harbor. And some enlist because they are lied to, and as a result of the lie, believe that their country is about to be attacked, and feel the obligation to defend her. I would be willing to bet that was the reason for the enlistment of many of the soldiers currently in Iraq, and those motivations for enlistment do not violate the "harm none" directive, because they are not based in malice, but in defense. You will notice that enlistment has fallen off since Shrubya's disinformation has been exposed.

Yes, there will always be xenophobes who will enlist hoping to get the chance to kill those who they perceive as enemies simply because they have a different governmental system, or a different religion, or some other difference that is perceived as evil by virtue of being different. But I beleive they are the minority, regardless of country or faith. And I don't beleive you'll find very many xenophobic Pagans.

The Luntz Research Companies & The Israel Project - April 2003

Israeli Communications Priorities 2003

ADC has obtained, and is publishing in full, a vital new Israeli propaganda strategy document for the period following the war in Iraq.

The document, entitled “Wexner Analysis: Israeli Communications Priorities 2003,” was prepared for the Wexner Foundation, which operates leadership training programs such as the “Birthright Israel” project which offers free trips for young Jewish Americans to Israel, by the public relations firm the Luntz Research Companies and the Israel Project. However, please note that the report’s suggested language is written in a distinctly Israeli, as opposed to a Jewish American, voice.

WEXNER ANALYSIS:
ISRAELI COMMUNICATION PRIORITIES 2003

OVERVIEW

The world has changed. The words, themes and messages on behalf of Israel must include and embrace the new reality of a post-Saddam world.

In the past, we have urged a lower profile for Israel out of a fear that the American people would blame Israel for what was happening in the rest of the Middle East. Now is the time to link American success in dealing with terrorism and dictators from a position of strength to Israel's ongoing efforts to eradicate terrorism on and within its borders. In the current political environment, you have little to lose and a lot to gain by aligning with America. With all the anti-Americanism across the globe and all the protests and demonstrations, we are looking for allies that share our commitment to security and an end to terrorism and are prepared to say so. Israel is a just such an ally.

THE NEXT STEP

The fact that Israel has remained relatively silent for the three months preceding the war and for the three weeks of the war was absolutely the correct strategy - and according to all the polling done, it worked. But as the military conflict comes to a close, it is now time for Israel to lay out its own "road map" for the future which includes unqualified support for America and unqualified commitment to an ongoing war against terrorism.

Perceptions of Israel and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict are being almost entirely colored and often overshadowed by the continuing action in Iraq. Partisan differences still exist (the political Left remains your problem) and complaints about Israeli heavy-handedness still exist. Advocates of Israel have about two weeks to get their message in order before world attention turns to the so-called "road map" and how best to "solve" the Israel-Palestinian conflict. Developing that message is the purpose of this memo.

Author's note: This is not a policy document. This document is strictly a communications manual. As with every memo we provide, we have used the same scientific methodology to isolate specific words, phrases, themes and messages that will resonate with at least 70% of the American audience. There will certainly be some people, particularly those on the political left, who will oppose whatever words you use, but the language that follows will help you secure support from a large majority of Americans. These recommendations are based on two "dial test" sessions in Chicago and Los Angeles conducted during the first ten days of the Iraqi war for the Wexner Foundation.

http://www.wakeupfromyourslumber.com/node/2395

Russia(I think you mean Soviet Union) and China were communist,not 'secular democracy'

As far as voting for a pagan, I'm not sure. In the end, anyone who proclaims their belief in a god or gods is someone whose rationality I find suspect. Which god(s) doesn't matter to me.

If you want to believe in a god, fine. Everyone's entitled to their fantasies. Doesn't mean I want to hear about them.

But all the candidates out there seem to find it necessary to proclaim their closeness to some kind of god, so it doesn't look like I'll have the opportunity to vote for a rational candidate anytime soon.

The military shouldn't discriminate on the basis of religion. If they're supplying religious support to some of their servicepeople and not others, that's discrimination. No, they shouldn't provide pagan chaplains. They should eliminate chaplains altogether.

Hearing "Trolls on a Roll" made me picture Trolls on dinner rolls which made me hungry. :-(

Hearing "Trolls on a Roll" made me picture Trolls on dinner rolls which made me hungry. :-(

If it were not for the "bred to kill", koranic crazies, we would need significantly fewer military personnel and therefore significantly fewer chaplins of any religion or pagan cult.

Victoria, you should emphasize the eradication of these "bred to kill" crazies in your liberal Islamic commentaries. Until you do, we unbelievers will continue for our own safety to adhere to the following principle:

Gators vs. Muslims-- Gators definitely will kill. With Muslims it depends but with the koran as their operating manual, we cannot trust any of them. The recent conduct of the seven Islamic doctors in Great Britain proves the point.

duckphup= no matter what the topic you pull out that same tired academy of science claim-

of course atheists have counselling-

my husband was a psychologist in the army-

all were welcome- guidance is guidance.

someone made the claim that monotheism has ruled the entire world to some ruination-

russia and china were secualar- and had and have atrocious human rights records.

just an observation.

lepidopterix made the case for 'harm none' that one can defend oneself against attack.

we dont have a draft- we arent under attack- and joining the military is a conscious decision-

by any mode of reasoning- i think that is a real stretch-

id say we can all agree that no sane person wants for themselves to be attacked unprovoked-
if youre really trying to follow the precept of harming no one (besides carrots) any would have to take this a little more seriously and deeply-

its kind of funny that when the subject is pagans, 'warriors' acquire a noble glow, but whe its muslims- theyre all terrorists.

if you want fairness, you have to be fair to all.

hope y'all had a sparky independence day

peace

From an Indian-Australian:

On this 4th of July I wish to take the opportunity to express my special appreciation to Sally Quinn and Jon Meacham for providing this terrific forum which has given me an opportunity to share in the important discussions and interact with many wonderful Americans and others from other parts of the world.

So a Happy Independence Day to all Americans!

Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia

Would you vote for a Pagan for public office?

Oh, I don't know. Probably. I always vote... but I always make it a practice to vote for somebody who has no chance of winning... so I guess a Pagan would qualify. I call it my 'protest vote'. Last election, I wrote in 'Pat Paulson'... always one of my favorites. The fact that good ol' Pat had died since the last time I wrote him in didn't bother me much.

I know this sounds kind of silly... maybe this will help explain:

"... the American version of representative government assures that such qualities as intellect and ethics as might equip a man to lead a powerful nation responsibly are precisely the qualities that would prevent him from subjecting himself to the debasing performances of vote begging and delegate swapping. It is a truism of American politics that no man who can win elections deserves to." ~ Trevanian, "Shibumi"

Here are a few things to think about...

In 40 studies over the past 80 years, it has been shown that there is an inverse statistical correlation between religiosity and intelligence. In other words, the MORE intelligent a person is, the LESS likely that person is to be religious. Conversely, the LESS intelligent a person is, the MORE likely that person is to be religious.

Up in the stratospheric regions of the IQ charts... where the REALLY smart people live... less than 5% believe in god.

Around 10% of the population of the USA admits to being atheist... there are probably a lot more than that... it's just that they are afraid to admit it, for fear of incurring the mindless wrath of their 'Christian' neighbors.

Statistically, at least 10% of the US Congress should be atheists... and, again statistically, most of those should be among the most intelligent members of Congress. But... how many atheists are in Congress?

NONE.

Whoa... you don't really BELIEVE that, do you? The simple fact is that someone who admits to not believing in god CAN NOT get elected to high public office in this country. So, in order for atheists to get elected to high public office, they must LIE to do it. So, I am SURE that at least 10% of the members of Congress are atheists... probably, a lot more. These guys, statistically, are smarter than the average bear, remember? But guess what? They are also LIARS. They speak the words they know they have to speak, in order to get elected... but they do not believe the words they are speaking.

I'm not really bothered by this, though, since pretty much ALL professional politicians are accomplished liars. There's no need to single out atheist liars, in that regard.

But here's the really neat part... the MOST qualified people... the SMARTEST of the smart... and the MOST HONEST... those are not impressed by the arguments presented in favor of the existence of magical, invisible sky-fairies (gods)... and thus do not 'believe'... and are UNWILLING to LIE about it... are disqualified from achieving high public office in the USA. They CANNOT GET ELECTED... so they do not even bother to run.

WHY can they not get elected? Because surveys show that in the USA, atheists are perceived to be LESS trusted and LESS highly regarded and MORE dangerous than child molestors.

So... let's recap... the smartest, most highly qualified and most honest people... the very ones that we NEED to lead us through these dangerous times and beyond... are disqualified from seeking high public office because they are LESS trusted and LESS highly regarded and MORE dangerous than child molestors.

What's wrong with this picture? This sure is a strange country that we live in. It's no wonder that our European friends laugh at us, behind our backs.

Should the Pagans get their own military Chaplain?

Hmmm... couldn't the Atheist Chaplain take care of their spititual needs? What's that you say? There ARE NO atheist Chaplains? Why not? Don't atheists have spiritual needs? Statistics tell me that at least 10% of the military should be atheists... lots more than Pagans... and spitituaity does not really have to have anything to so with gods and angels and spirits... it has mostly to do with self-realization.

Oh... what's that you say? Chaplains aren't really there to minister to the soldiers spiritual needs? They're REALLY there to help the soldiers overcome the cognitive dissonance that arises from the fact that they have grown up, their whole lives, being taught "Thou shalt not kill"... and now we want them to kill... and it's OK? That 'ministering to spiritual needs' is only a secondary function? OK. That makes sense. And EVERYBODY knows that atheists don't believe in the Ten Commandments, so they shouldn't have any problems with killing people... shouldn't have any 'cognitive dissonance'.

Why not just tell them the truth?... that "Thou shalt not kill" doesn't REALLY mean "Thou shalt not kill"... it REALLY means "Thou shalt not kill members of your own tribe... unless god tells you to". Judeo/Christian scripture makes it very clear that everybody else is pretty-much fair game. Same with "Thou shalt not steal"... "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors wife"... all that stuff. Not your own tribe... everybody else OK. God routinely gave his 'chosen people' permission... even specific orders... to rape, pillage, loot, burn and massacre their neighbors, all the way down to suckling children... and even to slice unborn children from their mother's wombs. Oh... we CAN'T tell them the truth? They can't handle the truth? Say... who are you, anyway? Jack Nicholson?

Oh... there's more to it than that, you say? I'm being too simplistic? How... oh... I see... we have to be sure that we keep god 'on our side'. Oh yeah... I forgot... that's how "In God We Trust" first came to be on our currency, during the Civil War. In the first few years of the war, the North was doing rather badly, and some influential clergymen presented the case that maybe god was NOT on the north's side... so "In God We Trust" was added to the currency as sort of a bribe to God... a recruitment inducement to the Lord, one might say. OK. Well... I guess the fact that the North won proves that it worked. Is that why it's still on or currency? Huh? What? I'm trying to change the subject? No... sorry... just got off track, that's all.

OK... let's get real. Of COURSE there should be a Pagan Chaplain. Why? Well, first and foremost, Paganism is no more stupid and irrelevant than Judaism, Christianity and Islam (actually, it is much LESS stupid than the others... but probably MORE irrelevant)... so why not? The second reason... and maybe even a BETTER reason... is that it is sure to honk off the Christian establishment... maybe cause them to shoot off their mouths and further reveal how small-minded, petty and duplicitous they really are.

I think that it is a GOOD THING that our young men and women have a deep moral revulsion to the taking of life. I think that it is a sad necessity that there is even a need for a military force... but there is, indeed, a need. So, it is a GOOD thing that there are people there who are dedicated to helping them deal with the inevitable moral conflicts that will inevitably arise. It is a SAD thing, though, that those dedicated people are essentially 'witch doctors', who utter prayers and incantations to assure our young people that they will remain in the good-graces of an imaginary, magical, invisible sky-fairy (god), should they actually kill somebody. I would much rather that, instead of a Chaplain's Corp, we had a Corp of dedicated, motivated, trained Psychologists, assigned at the company level, and trained para-professionals assigned at the platoon level.

I am not glossing over the fact that the Chaplain Corp also helps our service personnel and their families cope with the loss of their friends and loved ones, too... I just happen to think that we/they would be much better served by psychologists in that regard, too.

I support pagan chaplains in the military, but I feel it important to remind people just how much of an umbrella term Paganism is. There are polytheistic pagans, duotheistic pagans, monotheistic pagans, pantheistic pagans, panentheistic pagans, etc. There are Traditional Wiccans, Neo-Wiccans, Asatru, Reconstructionists (of several ancient faiths), Chaotes, Discordians, and, of course, eclectics. There are Pagans who practice in groups, and Pagans who practice on their own.

This is a problem. How do we expect to provide chaplains to all of these very varied faiths? We have to hope that the few that we can get represented will be sufficient to aid those who are are not.

Would I vote for a pagan for office? Depends on the pagan. Since I'm considering running for office one day, I'll certainly vote for myself.

The figure given at the rally today was approximately 1400-1500 military members listing "Pagan", "Wiccan", "Asatru", or "Druid" as their religion.

As for Pagans joining the military - why not? The Warrior's path is an honorable one. Many of the Gods that we celebrate are Warriors, including Athena. The ancient people had to fight to protect their lands from foreign invaders. We stress the values of honor, duty, and service to the Gods. So, of course Pagans are going to enlist!

I'm very curious. I have no idea what Wiccans teach. Do you obtain special powers of some sort through this belief system? And what sort of logical explanation can be given as some sort of proof that this religious system actually works (if it has a meaning for one's life)? I'd like to know. I am a Christian myself, but I am curious about what Pagans or Wiccans (are they the same?) believe and how those beliefs affect your lives?

Thanks

Well yes, JDS, you made it clear you think everyone wants to do good; but what does it mean to say that no matter how ell intentioned our efforts will most likely fail if we are not "drinking from God’s fountain of wisdom?"

I'd like to think that I consider my actions and their consequences carefully (my wife would probably tell you too carefully...). I don't think I need God to do that. In fact, I've found that since I gave up my faith I have become a lot more clear headed, and probably make much better decisions and do more good (or at least less harm) than I used to.

Your own experience, of course, may differ...;-)

Regards

A Hermit

A couple of people have mentioned the "Harm none" aspect of Pagan belief, and wanted to know how that is reconciled with military service.

"Harm none" is an oversimplification. It is impossible to live without doing harm. In order to eat, I must harm plants and animals. Carrots die when I pull them out of the ground and steam them. A pullet dies when I make chicken and dimplings. In fact, every living thing eats at the cost of something else's life. Even the soil from which plants take their nourishment is made up of the decayed bodies of other living things. It's all part of the Web.

"Harm none" is an admonition to not act maliciously. It is a reminder that the harm you do to others, you do also to yourself. It is a reminder to think carefully about the possible repercussions and consequences of what you are about to do before you act. "Harm none" does not mean that you cannot defend yourself or others against a personal attack, and it does not mean that you cannot serve in the military.

A Hermit:

Oh gracious no! Did not mean to imply that only Christians are capable of doing good. That does sound arrogant. The Bible itself confirms we are a mixture of good and evil.

I thought I had mentioned not remembering meeting anyone that did not want to do good. The question is what is the right way to achieve it? Proverbs 14:10 can be interpreted to mean, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions". Somebody didn't come up with that saying for nothing. This doesn’t mean that every good intention is going to go bad, of course it doesn’t. People still do far more good than evil; otherwise we would have ceased to exist a long time ago.

I can only tell you from my own experience that bible study and belief in God is like having a councilor sitting on my shoulder asking, “Did you consider this, did you consider that?” Before that I had no vision, no discernment. Murphy's Law was a close companion, even when I was thought I was doing the right thing. If that doesn’t apply to you and your own mind is a good councilor - great! I hope our elected leaders are just like you and not like me.

What a question! I think to guess right. No. History did not begin the Independence Day. Thousand of years before.

"Would you vote for a Pagan for public office?" Now Im learning now that governing a nation is specially an act of faith. No. Policy is mainly a pragmatic effort. Faith in the church and deep philosophy in Academies.

Well. It is the cost of a multi-confsesional state. Unconfessional ones normally don't provide support to any confession. Pagan? Isis, Zeus, Dionisius, Thor, Odin, Lugh, etc., etc. and, a very long etcetera.

The real question is this: why are tax dollars being spent to embed chaplains in the military in the first place?

Firstly, this is at most only secondarily a Constitutional issue. The first and overriding priority is force support; the notion that all religions having "at least a few" adherents within the military must/should have a chaplain or twenty is nonsensical, not least because of the difficulty of ascertaining religious preferences in what is deemed adequate detail by all. The only reasonable conclusion with regards to force support is what's already been said: If such is needed for adequate support and maintenance of fighting ability and mission achievement, then there should be some adequate number. If not, then no.

With regards to the second question, I can only say it's without adequate detail to provide for the opportunity to give a meaningful, intelligent response. What is a Pagan? (And don't give me a link to Wikipedia or anywhere else--my point is that the term is used clearly much more as a broad categorization than any specific and organized set of beliefs/practices.) What particular subset of paganism does this particular Pagan represent? What are the beliefs of this group? If there's no organized group beliefs, what does the individual believe?

The widely preached notion that religion shouldn't matter is of course a crock; it's easy to ascertain that at least some of those posting here would never vote for what is often called (derisively) herein a "fundamentalist Christian". Anyone saying they'd be willing to vote for a militant Islamist preaching that Rushdie should be killed for his apostasy would certainly never get my vote.

Of course what one believes matters; if it didn't, we'd just draw straws, and loser would have to go to Congress.

As for the notion that public performance and private beliefs can or should be separate, I can only say that if one isn't willing to act as if one believes, then what use are the beliefs? For instance, if it's true, as mentioned herein, that Pagans have as an important principle "harm no one", how can that be squared with political decisions regarding war, defense, and so forth? I doubt the country would really benefit from having a president, for instance, unwilling ever to utilize military force for national security.

So, in sum, this seems to me another poorly considered and presented question intended to be inflammatory enough to stimulate lots of "discussion", virtually none of which will be useful.

Henry James,

Have you read THE MASTER by Colm Toibin? It's a novel that undertakes to get inside your mind.

PUBLISHERS WEEKLY said:

"The subtlety and empathy with which Tóibín inhabits James's psyche and captures the fleeting emotional nuances of his world are beyond praise, and even the echoes of the master's style ring true. Far more than a stunt, this is a riveting, if inevitably somewhat evasive, portrait of the creative life."

Regards.

I believe that chaplains of all faiths should be eliminated from the military, while at the same time, gays should be able to serve openly in the military.

I am unable to provide a specific citation because I got my numbers from the Retrieval Application Website (RAW) from the AF Personnel Center (public statistics, NOT including religious preference, is available at http://wwa.afpc.randolph.af.mil/demographics/). As an active duty member, I have access to the raw data, but I am not authorized to further distribute the specific values.

As of June 2007, approximately 1% of USAF enlisted personnel OFFICIALLY declared themselves Pagan, Wiccan, Shaman, or Druid (just over 3000 enlisted personnel). There are significantly less officers who declare the same categories (.4%). I have no data on the other military services.

These numbers are lower than reality because of the number of people who claim their preference as "No Preference" or "Other" for fear of reprisal or discrimination. I know two officers who will not declare their pagan status because of the fear that their declaration will affect their promotions and command selections.

JDS, when you say: "The problem is that if someone is not drinking from God’s fountain of wisdom then chances are no matter how well intentioned that person might be in coming up with a solution to a problem – it will probably fail or have unwanted long term consequences..." are you seriously suggesting that only Christians are capable of doing good?

Isn't that just a wee bit arrogant?

Regards

A Hermit

Merry Meet, Henry! Happy Independece Day!

JDS-

Since the Divine is present in every living thing, I don't know how you can say we worship a dead god.

A Hermit,

That appears to be "I WISH".

Pagans have been the most consistently humane, reasonable, appropriately spiritual posters on this web site. Starhawk, Terra Gazelle, Wiccan, and others have earned great respect from me and others for these qualities.

I would vote for Starhawk for president in a heartbeat if she were running against George Bush or Dick Cheney. (hard test, eh?).

I would certainly seriously consider voting for a Pagan of Starhawk's sensibility if she were otherwise qualified.

Pastors: apart from the procedural issues, which are significant, i say Sure.

jds, Is this the "I AM" you are referring to?
http://www.saintgermainfoundation.org/ It's so hard to keep them all straight...;-)

My gut reaction to the first question is that if the military has Pagans worshipping a dead god then having their own chaplain won't make any difference one way or the other. I don’t think I would sleep too well though, knowing that my military is full of Pagans hoping that a dead god will help them in battle. As for the second question, I could not bring myself to vote for a Pagan no matter how much I may agree or disagree with the candidate's political views, or how much I may like him or her personally. The reasons are as follows:

Proverbs 9:10 - "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom..."
Anyone that the above verse does not apply to is almost guaranteed to fall into the trap of the following verse:

Proverbs 14:12 - "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death."
I have always taken this to mean not just the cessation of life, but also the death of common sense or the end of anything that was once decent and right.

At the moment I cannot think of one person I have ever met that did not wish they could help their fellow man in some way - whether they were a Christian, an atheist, liberally-minded, conservatively-minded, or whatever. The problem is that if someone is not drinking from God’s fountain of wisdom then chances are no matter how well intentioned that person might be in coming up with a solution to a problem – it will probably fail or have unwanted long term consequences (this applies to “lukewarm Christians” as well, many of whom end up doing something dumb in the name of God resulting in turning soooooo… many people against Christianity). It could even turn out to be cruel (Prov. 12:10 – “A righteous man regards the life of his animal, but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.”) This verse certainly applies to our treatment of each other as well. The word “wicked” in this context does not mean someone like Dracula or Freddy Krueger; it just describes a plain ol' sinner.

I am certain that most of our politicians today don’t have a fear or respect for God, even the ones that say they do. That is why so many of their well intended solutions to our problems turn out so badly.

As for those who think that a Christian’s god is no different from a pagan’s god and it doesn’t make any difference whom you worship (if you even feel you have to worship something) then err on the side of caution and worship the only one that says, “I AM”.

YES and YES. Only Constitutional Ignoramuses would answer NO to the first question.

Only anti-Pagan bigots would answer NO to the second question We already have a pair of trolls heading the federal government. Pagans are more enlightened than your run-of-the mill trolls.

BTW, the original name for the SURGE in Iraq was to have been TROLLS ON A ROLL (referring not to the soldiers but to the civilian leadership) but the PR folks had qualms. I don't understand why.

The military should absolutely have at least one Pagan chaplain. Preferably more for such diverse and disparate Pagan religions such as Wicca, Asatruar, and Druidism. Paganism, like "Dharmic" and "Abrahamic" is an umbrella term---a typology of related religions, rather than a single tradition. Chaplaincy should reflect that reality. As for politicians, I would happily vote for a Wiccan, Druid, or Asatruar, provided I agreed with them on issues of public policy. The same would be true for a Sikh, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu or Christian. Religion would not be a singular litmus test, however.

On the second part of the question concerning voting for a Pagan. I don't know if I would or not. However, we have first class nuts disguised as "men of faith" with totally brainwashed adherents. I believe it would totally depend on what would appear to be their true position on the constitution and common sense. Monontheistic people have totally run the world aground on hard rocks so it would appear that a Pagan might have a better chance to right the ship of state.

If we the peoples of the world would quit thinking we are "intelligent" and that humans are continuing to evolve into higher beings then the world would have a better chance of not committing mass suicide from an invented concept or concepts of religion or religions.

So the first thing to do is to recognize the limitation of human intelligence and the inherent evil from selfishness that is built in to humanity; and if it would appear that a Pagan would come nearer to maintaining the United States as invented by its Constitution then by all means vote for a Pagan.

I thought that all the chaplains in the military that we have already are pagan. How can you tell? They certainly don't teach the God of the Bible that they are supposed to represent such as "I am the Truth, the Way, and the Life." It is all so generic. When are they going to let a true Christian chaplain in, one that reminds us that it is our responsiblity to be saved, blessed and healed. The Bible says, "TODAY is the day of salvation." In other words, stop sitting on your pain and frustration and do something about it TODAY, then you can get blessed and healed.

I thought that all the chaplains in the military that we have already are pagan. How can you tell? They certainly don't teach the God of the Bible that they are supposed to represent such as "I am the Truth, the Way, and the Life." It is all so generic. When are they going to let a true Christian chaplain in, one that reminds us that it is our responsiblity to be saved, blessed and healed. The Bible says, "TODAY is the day of salvation." In other words, stop sitting on your pain and frustration and do something about it TODAY, then you can get blessed and healed.

"are there alot of pagans in the military?"

At least a few apparently...

http://www.witchvox.com/military/xgroups_m.html

http://paganwiccan.about.com/od/yourlegalrights/a/Mil_Pagans.htm

The question, and answer, should be completely a military question. If there are enough Pagans in the military that a chaplain is needed as support to the fighting force then there should be a military Pagan chaplain. I don't know of any reason to have a chaplain in the military except as support to the fighting forces.

To apply or attempt to apply the same non-sensical concepts that have been applied to public education etc. to the military is totally without a redeeming reason, and could in fact be highly detrimental to maintaining a fighting force for defense of our country.

If the military needs a chaplain then they should get one. If the military doesn't need one to maintain and sustain the fighting men and women then they clearly should not have one around getting in the way and taking up time, space, and resources.

What a stupid question.

If the military supplies chaplains for other faiths it must also do so for Pagans.

It's all or nothing, guys. The idea of religious liberty is meaningless if it is only extended to followers of government approved religions.

A Hermit

are there alot of pagans in the military?

i have no idea- the first precept of the wiccans is 'harm no one' and that would seem to be a conflict.

anyone have ay figures?

and arent there alot of differing ways one can be a pagan?

is there an all-inclusive chaplaincy for pagans that can satisfy them?

anyone with numbers, link it up!

peace all and happy independence day